PDA

View Full Version : Kevin Love in March



Pages : [1] 2

Cfrey
03-26-2012, 04:21 AM
Through 12 games he's averaging about 31 points and 14 boards and shooting a blistering 46 percent from 3.

Is this one of the great stretches we have seen from somebody in the NBA in years?

Could Love finish the season with averages of 26 and 14?? Duncan never did that.

The things this man has accomplished.


Love had his seventh career 30-20 game, which leads all active players. At 23 years old, he already has done that more times than Tim Duncan (six), Kevin Garnett (five) and Dirk Nowitzki (two).

It was also his ninth this season with at least 30 points and 15 boards. Atlanta's Josh Smith is the only other player in the league who has done it more than once this season. Smith has done it twice.

waveycrockett
03-26-2012, 04:23 AM
He is the new Larry Bird now he just needs his Kevin McHale and Robert Parish!

xk4
03-26-2012, 04:38 AM
Minnesota is a farm for beast power forwards

shep33
03-26-2012, 04:42 AM
Steve Blake is averaging 2 points on 24% shooting this month... and he's playing 20+ mpg.

blom85
03-26-2012, 04:48 AM
Minnesota is a farm for beast power forwards

I know right..

Love
Beasely (PF is secondary position)
Williams
Randolph

Yet we don't make any trades with them..

Cfrey
03-26-2012, 04:49 AM
The craziest thing is that Love is only 23 and putting up HOF type numbers...

and who knows.. this could just be the start of things

what if he averages 28 and 15.. that would be unreal

shep33
03-26-2012, 05:01 AM
The craziest thing is that Love is only 23 and putting up HOF type numbers...

and who knows.. this could just be the start of things

what if he averages 28 and 15.. that would be unreal

He's great, but I do expect his numbers to drop once he gets some help (particularly when Rubio gets back, Pek starts playing big minutes again, and fire Wes Johnson).

He reminds me a lot like Kobe and Lebron without help right now.

Cfrey
03-26-2012, 05:07 AM
I think even once he gets his help back he is still going to be a monster for YEARS to come..

you gotta remember that Love is still developing.. he upped his scoring from 21 ppg last year I believe to a great 26 ppg and thats just because he's becoming a better player.. i think rubio actually helped k love and loves rebounding will always be there so I dont think it would be surprising at all if love average 25 and 13 for years to come

Cfrey
03-26-2012, 05:11 AM
and I think the greatest thing Love has going for him is that he's legitimately had to work his way to where he's at right now.. im not discrediting the other superstars in the league but I feel like the rest of them had an easier job at getting where they are today..

a non flashy, slow white kid has established himself as the best PF in the league simply because he's one of the hardest workers in the game and wants to be GREAT.. he doesn't get hyped because of highlights, he just delivers

Section#80
03-26-2012, 06:02 AM
one of the most skilled players in the league, Loyal, hard working, dedicated and passionate about the game. one of a kind.

xk4
03-26-2012, 06:35 AM
Hopefully in 10 years he will get traded to the Celtics and bang out a 66 win season

Becks2307
03-26-2012, 07:14 AM
If Blake Griffin was putting up these numbers we would all be going bananas. Kevin Love is ridiculous. He is putting up crazy averages while shooting 45% and 38% from deep...WTF!!!

FraziersKnicks
03-26-2012, 07:29 AM
I think the next natural step for him to develop as a player is to get his FG% above 50% and improve his defense. If he can do that whilst maintaining his incredible rebounding rate and 3PT shooting, then you're definitely looking at this generation's best PF.

Those are my only two knocks on him at the moment... His FG% and his defense. Everything else, the guy does incredibly. But if he wants to raise his level of play to TD/KG standards, I think that's what's needed of him. And considering how much he's developed in his first 4 years in the league, I wouldn't say any of those things are out of the question.

Becks2307
03-26-2012, 07:41 AM
I really don't see 46% as much of an issue considering what a threat he is from outside.

I mean Dirks career average is 47% and he couldn't dream of rebounding like Love.

Hawkeye15
03-26-2012, 08:38 AM
Dudes a stat stuffer. He sucks.

naps
03-26-2012, 08:57 AM
What I don't get is if Blake Griffin was going off like this every night this forum would explode. Double standards or too many young posters focusing on highlight reels?

What Love has been doing statistically in this modern era of hoops is simply amazing. He has the potential to challenge Duncan for the GOAT PF. We'll see how it turns out.

Twinsfan24
03-26-2012, 08:59 AM
Dudes a stat stuffer. He sucks.

LOL stirring the pot I see:D

Hawkeye15
03-26-2012, 09:14 AM
http://www.basketball-reference.com/play-index/pcm_finder.cgi?request=1&sum=0&p1=garneke01&y1=1999&p2=duncati01&y2=2001&p3=nowitdi01&y3=2002&p4=malonka01&y4=1989&p5=loveke01&y5=2012&p6=barklch01&y6=1988

4th season for each.

iliketurtles24
03-26-2012, 09:22 AM
he puts up good numbers on a bad team, someone has to score right?

LongIslandIcedZ
03-26-2012, 09:36 AM
Hate to be that guy because I love Kevin Love, but there are two sides of the court. He's gotta play better D

Hawkeye15
03-26-2012, 09:39 AM
Hate to be that guy because I love Kevin Love, but there are two sides of the court. He's gotta play better D

Its improved, but it has to improve even further, no doubt. Its the single thing keeping him from joining LeBron, Durant, and Dwight.

Swashcuff
03-26-2012, 09:42 AM
Best PF in the game just keeps getting better with every single game he plays.

MrfadeawayJB
03-26-2012, 10:16 AM
Wishing we never made that Love for Mayo trade. If only we could have the Gay love combo in memphis lol

MrfadeawayJB
03-26-2012, 10:20 AM
What I don't get is if Blake Griffin was going off like this every night this forum would explode. Double standards or too many young posters focusing on highlight reels?

What Love has been doing statistically in this modern era of hoops is simply amazing. He has the potential to challenge Duncan for the GOAT PF. We'll see how it turns out.

I think its a combination of him being white and trying to shed the "hard worker" label that plagues white players. Can't a white guy just be skilled! Kevin Love is pretty damn skilled. I also think its because he is not "flashy" and he is not making amazing acrobatic plays around the rim. Based on his stats he should be the poster boy of the NBA similar to Durant, Griffin, and Howard

Hawkeye15
03-26-2012, 10:22 AM
Wishing we never made that Love for Mayo trade. If only we could have the Gay love combo in memphis lol

I went to bed pissed on draft night that we didn't try and make a move down, or trade for Love. He was the guy I wanted. I won't go into specifically why I didn't like Mayo there, but I thought Love had a ton of talent and would be a really good player. I didn't know he had superstar talent, but I was certain he would be a better player than anyone available at that position.

WhoKobe?
03-26-2012, 10:43 AM
and I think the greatest thing Love has going for him is that he's legitimately had to work his way to where he's at right now.. im not discrediting the other superstars in the league but I feel like the rest of them had an easier job at getting where they are today..

a non flashy, slow white kid has established himself as the best PF in the league simply because he's one of the hardest workers in the game and wants to be GREAT.. he doesn't get hyped because of highlights, he just delivers

I can understand the slow white kid stuff but lbj, rose,Kd And even Kobe (I guess) had to work what they have yeah they fast but work is work have to make due with what you got

ManningToTyree
03-26-2012, 10:58 AM
He is the best PF in the league and plays no D. If he can improve that we will be talking about him as a top 5 player.

Swashcuff
03-26-2012, 11:06 AM
He is the best PF in the league and plays no D. If he can improve that we will be talking about him as a top 5 player.

I think that's a myth. He does play D he's just not very good at it. :laugh2:

PurpleJesus
03-26-2012, 11:11 AM
What I find funny about Love haters, is 2 things.

#1, is that he is nonathletic. This just isnt the case. Love is plenty athletic. His draft measurements had him marked with a 35 inch vertical, 18 bench press, 11.17 lane agility, and a 3.22 second 3/4 court sprint. Compare that to a player like Derrick Favors who is highly regarded for his athleticism, and you will see almost no difference. Favors with a 35.5 inch vert, 14 bench press, 11.74 lane agility, and 3.25 sprint.

Now, KLove isnt Blake Griffin athletically, but Love is also no slouch athletically either. And he plays a position, where athleticism also isnt the prevailing factor for current greats at the PF position (i.e Duncan, Dirk, etc.), or all time greats at the position (i.e. Barkley).

The second thing I find funny about haters, is that they claim he doesnt put up these type of numbers on a winning team. The fact is, basketball is a team game, and when the Wolves were relatively healthy, with their 2nd and 3rd best players (Pek and Rubio), the Wolves were above .500, and held a spot in the playoff race, Love was still averaging 26 and 14.

Another thing people bring up is his defense. Obviously not great, but not terrible either. I think his defense could be describe as very average...but you have to factor in the rebounding as part of defense as well, because when you have a player that rebounds at the rate Love does, that minimizes second possessions for the opponent.

to say Love's defense is average, or his main weakness is one thing...but to say he plays no defense, or his defense sucks, is blasphemy.

NoahH
03-26-2012, 11:22 AM
Minny will definitely make some noise in the west next year

PurpleJesus
03-26-2012, 11:25 AM
Here are a couple of defensive win shares from the PF position.

Love this season is at 2.2
Aldridge is at 1.8
Garnett is at 3
Blake is at 1.7
Josh Smith 3.9
2010 2nd all defensive team Anderson Varejao is at 1.0

So, not really that bad. Smith and Garnett, I think, would be regarded as 2 of the best defensive PF's in the game...behind them, there isnt really too many great defensive PF's, and Love could be found right up there with those other PF's, not named Garnett or Smith.

Hawkeye15
03-26-2012, 11:31 AM
Here are a couple of defensive win shares from the PF position.

Love this season is at 2.2
Aldridge is at 1.8
Garnett is at 3
Blake is at 1.7
Josh Smith 3.9
2010 2nd all defensive team Anderson Varejao is at 1.0

So, not really that bad. Smith and Garnett, I think, would be regarded as 2 of the best defensive PF's in the game...behind them, there isnt really too many great defensive PF's, and Love could be found right up there with those other PF's, not named Garnett or Smith.

DWS's are not the best way to measure, but he has improved on that portion. He does play about 2/3 of his time at PF, 1/3 at C. He holds PF's to a PER of 12.8, and C's to a PER of 13.7. I am going to look up his update synergy numbers when I get home, and will post them.

By no means is he going to be making an all-defensive team anytime soon. But he isn't as bad as most make him out to be. And of course being able to snatch defensive rebounds should count as defense. You are removing the other teams ability to get another possession when you are a great defensive rebounder. He also draws a nice amount of fouls doing so.

netsgiantsyanks
03-26-2012, 11:36 AM
Wishing we never made that Love for Mayo trade. If only we could have the Gay love combo in memphis lol

i made a similar joke like 2 years ago when ramon sessions was with minny and i said what if kevin love was never traded and sessions got traded to the grizzlies.

gay-love-sessions

MrfadeawayJB
03-26-2012, 11:47 AM
i made a similar joke like 2 years ago when ramon sessions was with minny and i said what if kevin love was never traded and sessions got traded to the grizzlies.

gay-love-sessions

:laugh2:

THE GIPPER
03-26-2012, 11:49 AM
I dont think he'll ever be a great shot blocker due to him not being a big leaper, but if he masters the other areas on the defensive end I think we could someday talk about him as one of the all time greatest pf's.

PurpleJesus
03-26-2012, 11:50 AM
i made a similar joke like 2 years ago when ramon sessions was with minny and i said what if kevin love was never traded and sessions got traded to the grizzlies.

gay-love-sessions

There is also a scenario where we could end up having

Gay-Love-Cousins

He115ing
03-26-2012, 12:04 PM
Kevin Love>>>>>>>Griffin. All Griffin do is dunk...

He115ing
03-26-2012, 12:05 PM
There is also a scenario where we could end up having

Gay-Love-Cousins

If you would have wrote Gay-Cousins-Love, it would have sounded a bit weird lol.

MarkieMark48
03-26-2012, 12:08 PM
Hes the MVP this year IMO

He115ing
03-26-2012, 12:10 PM
Hes the MVP this year IMO

Not if the Wolves don't make the playoffs.

Hawkeye15
03-26-2012, 12:14 PM
Hes the MVP this year IMO

If the Wolves go 11-5/12-4 and make the playoffs and he puts up these 32-15 numbers like he has been, he has a case for some votes, but its a 2-way race right now.

DragonJaii
03-26-2012, 12:15 PM
best pf in the league right now

kdspurman
03-26-2012, 12:22 PM
Best PF in the game right now. But just an FYI, saying Duncan never put up 26 & 14? He put up monster numbers in the Playoffs/Finals early on in his career. He had another gear come playoff time.

And Tim was All NBA/All Defense the first 13 years of his career. No one else in NBA history has ever done that. While I respect Love and what he's doing now, respect Tim's accolades as well. It's easy to forget when you see a guy like Tim in the last few yrs of his career.

Hawkeye15
03-26-2012, 12:34 PM
Best PF in the game right now. But just an FYI, saying Duncan never put up 26 & 14? He put up monster numbers in the Playoffs/Finals early on in his career. He had another gear come playoff time.

And Tim was All NBA/All Defense the first 13 years of his career. No one else in NBA history has ever done that. While I respect Love and what he's doing now, respect Tim's accolades as well. It's easy to forget when you see a guy like Tim in the last few yrs of his career.

dude, Love has a loooooooooooooooooooooooooooooong way to go before we are talking about him in Duncan's category as a player. We all know that. But he is 23, so you can only project at the moment. It looks like his team is a playoff team by next year, so we will see what he is truly made of when the real games start.

kdspurman
03-26-2012, 12:37 PM
dude, Love has a loooooooooooooooooooooooooooooong way to go before we are talking about him in Duncan's category as a player. We all know that. But he is 23, so you can only project at the moment. It looks like his team is a playoff team by next year, so we will see what he is truly made of when the real games start.

I know, but the OP kinda made a comment like Duncan never averaged certain numbers. But believe me, I know. I'm pulling for them to make the playoffs. (as long as they don't matchup with SA of course, talk about matchup nightmares ;) )

Hawkeye15
03-26-2012, 12:37 PM
http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/d/duncati01.html

dang, look at the leaderboard, awards section for Duncan haha.

Shadowplay
03-26-2012, 12:44 PM
Guy is putting up crazy numbers this year.Best power forward in the league

CudiOnMyiPod
03-26-2012, 12:57 PM
I really don't see 46% as much of an issue considering what a threat he is from outside.

I mean Dirks career average is 47% and he couldn't dream of rebounding like Love.

Dirk as also led his team to 11 straight 50+ win seasons, led his team to a championship, and has secured his name as a Legend and a top 20 player of all time, something that Kevin Love will have a very hard time coming near.

Blitzbolt
03-26-2012, 01:00 PM
I don't care if he Drops 40 and 40 from here on out.

Wins is the best stat out there and Love never wins.

CudiOnMyiPod
03-26-2012, 01:01 PM
Best PF in the game right now. But just an FYI, saying Duncan never put up 26 & 14? He put up monster numbers in the Playoffs/Finals early on in his career. He had another gear come playoff time.

And Tim was All NBA/All Defense the first 13 years of his career. No one else in NBA history has ever done that. While I respect Love and what he's doing now, respect Tim's accolades as well. It's easy to forget when you see a guy like Tim in the last few yrs of his career.

Exactly. You can't compare Love to legends like Duncan, Garnett, and Dirk.

Blitzbolt
03-26-2012, 01:02 PM
Also Kobe Favors Gay Love Sessions is my future allstar team.

Hawkeye15
03-26-2012, 01:11 PM
I don't care if he Drops 40 and 40 from here on out.

Wins is the best stat out there and Love never wins.

if you truly believe wins is the ONLY way to measure a player, you should follow tennis or ping pong instead of a team sport bud.

Blitzbolt
03-26-2012, 01:14 PM
if you truly believe wins is the ONLY way to measure a player, you should follow tennis or ping pong instead of a team sport bud.

??You play to win the game (Herm Edwards voice)Stat Boosting on a crappy team means nothing to me.

Hawkeye15
03-26-2012, 01:16 PM
??You play to win the game (Herm Edwards voice)Stat Boosting on a crappy team means nothing to me.

No, I understand the way you view it, even if you are wrong.

b@llhog24
03-26-2012, 01:24 PM
Dirk as also led his team to 11 straight 50+ win seasons, led his team to a championship, and has secured his name as a Legend and a top 20 player of all time, something that Kevin Love will have a very hard time coming near.

Lol please Love is playing better than Dirk was in his 4th year.


Exactly. You can't compare Love to legends like Duncan, Garnett, and Dirk.

You CAN always compare someone, doesn't mean its a favourable comparison. Although Love has alot of work to put in before he is mentioned as being as good as those guys were/are career wise.

CudiOnMyiPod
03-26-2012, 01:27 PM
Lol please Love is playing better than Dirk was in his 4th year.



You CAN always compare someone, doesn't mean its a favourable comparison. Although Love has alot of work to put in before he is mentioned as being as good as those guys were/are career wise.

And by his fourth year, Dirk had elevated the Mavs to a legitimate contender.

Swashcuff
03-26-2012, 01:29 PM
I don't care if he Drops 40 and 40 from here on out.

Wins is the best stat out there and Love never wins.


??You play to win the game (Herm Edwards voice)Stat Boosting on a crappy team means nothing to me.

So you think Love isn't playing to win? This is a T.E.A.M. sport kid. How can you accurately assess one player's value by how well his TEAM performs in a TEAM sport. One man isn't an army he cant take on 12 opposing players by himself. When will you guys understand this. Playing to win is one thing but actually winning without an adequate support cast is damn near impossible.

Like Hawkeye said you should pick up none team sports if you think wins and nothing is the best way to assess a player.

b@llhog24
03-26-2012, 01:30 PM
Best PF in the game right now. But just an FYI, saying Duncan never put up 26 & 14? He put up monster numbers in the Playoffs/Finals early on in his career. He had another gear come playoff time.

And Tim was All NBA/All Defense the first 13 years of his career. No one else in NBA history has ever done that. While I respect Love and what he's doing now, respect Tim's accolades as well. It's easy to forget when you see a guy like Tim in the last few yrs of his career.

Duncan while being close to 26ppg never averaged 14rebs. But Duncan is still the better player between the two.

Edit: We're talking about the regular season.

Swashcuff
03-26-2012, 01:30 PM
And by his fourth year, Dirk had elevated the Mavs to a legitimate contender.

Tell me something. Do you think 4th year Dirk could elevate this Wolves team to a legimate contender. Now I want you to take all factors into consideration. Support, coaching, system, chemistry etc.

theDOC
03-26-2012, 01:31 PM
I hate to damper on how well Kevin Love has been playing, but the T-Wolves are the 11th best team in the West right now, and this screams what Monta Ellis use to be:

a really good player who plays on one of the highest pace teams in the league, who's leading the league in minutes played, who's on team in 11th place.

I don't even think he's the best player at his position.

Birdmannn
03-26-2012, 01:31 PM
And by his fourth year, Dirk had elevated the Mavs to a legitimate contender.

Not disagreeing with you at all but Mark Cuban compared to who ever owns the Wolves, there is a big difference in how much money each are willing to spend.
Its nice joining a team where the owner throws around money like Cuban.

Birdmannn
03-26-2012, 01:33 PM
I hate to damper on how well Kevin Love has been playing, but the T-Wolves are the 11th best team in the West right now, and this screams what Monta Ellis use to be:

a really good player who plays on one of the highest pace teams in the league, who's leading the league in minutes played, who's on team in 11th place.

I don't even think he's the best player at his position.

You must be a L.A. fan, not sure which one thou.

Swashcuff
03-26-2012, 01:35 PM
I hate to damper on how well Kevin Love has been playing, but the T-Wolves are the 11th best team in the West right now, and this screams what Monta Ellis use to be:

a really good player who plays on one of the highest pace teams in the league, who's leading the league in minutes played, who's on team in 11th place.

I don't even think he's the best player at his position.

I mean seriously. Look at all of the teams ahead of the Wolves and tell me how many of those teams have worst casts than Love's Wolves.

This is a team game bro. Love can't do everything for his team.

shep33
03-26-2012, 01:36 PM
To me he's a top 10 player and the best PF in the NBA.

Blitzbolt
03-26-2012, 01:36 PM
I hate to damper on how well Kevin Love has been playing, but the T-Wolves are the 11th best team in the West right now, and this screams what Monta Ellis use to be:

a really good player who plays on one of the highest pace teams in the league, who's leading the league in minutes played, who's on team in 11th place.

I don't even think he's the best player at his position.

This is what I'm saying being a ball hog on a bad team means nothing.

b@llhog24
03-26-2012, 01:36 PM
And by his fourth year, Dirk had elevated the Mavs to a legitimate contender.

That's nice to know; Love was still the better player individual player although looking at it its much closer than I thought.

MrfadeawayJB
03-26-2012, 01:36 PM
Also Kobe Favors Gay Love Sessions is my future allstar team.

I see what you did there

b@llhog24
03-26-2012, 01:37 PM
Not disagreeing with you at all but Mark Cuban compared to who ever owns the Wolves, there is a big difference in how much money each are willing to spend.
Its nice joining a team where the owner throws around money like Cuban.

Well Dirk also had that good ownership thing going for him.

theDOC
03-26-2012, 01:38 PM
if you truly believe wins is the ONLY way to measure a player, you should follow tennis or ping pong instead of a team sport bud.

Kevin Love isn't Lebron, but look at the impact losing one player did for the Cavs. they went from 1st to last.

"winning isn't everything, it's the only thing".

Love's numbers have been great, but there's got to be something said about his team being 11th. his team is somewhat irrelevant in the playoff picture. yeah, it isn't always the best player is on the best team, and since Malone never won a championship, that doesn't keep him from being a great player. the difference is Love's team is 11th in the standings and they haven't been to the playoffs with him yet.

it's a team sport but the biggest team sport where individuals make up teams rather than teams making up teams. he just isn't there yet.

Blitzbolt
03-26-2012, 01:39 PM
I mean seriously. Look at all of the teams ahead of the Wolves and tell me how many of those teams have worst casts than Love's Wolves.

This is a team game bro. Love can't do everything for his team.

Well that sucks for him then.

Would he be able to put up those number on a winning team with players who take up some of his shots and rebounds?....NO.

Birdmannn
03-26-2012, 01:39 PM
Well Dirk also had that good ownership thing going for him.

Which makes a HUGE difference.

Swashcuff
03-26-2012, 01:40 PM
This is what I'm saying being a ball hog on a bad team means nothing.

Do you watch the Timberwolves at all or do you just go off course making rash claims? How on earth is Kevin Love a ball hog?

Kevin Love isn't even in the top 10 in USG% in the league and only THIS season he has had plays actually ran for him previous to this year he played independent of the system being the ultimate garbage man. Anyone who says Kevin Love is a ball hog SURELY doesn't watch the man play. SURELY.

Bigus Dogus
03-26-2012, 01:40 PM
Hopefully in 10 years he will get traded to the Celtics and bang out a 66 win season

I thought that was really funny until I realized how sad it made me...:(

b@llhog24
03-26-2012, 01:41 PM
Kevin Love isn't Lebron, but look at the impact losing one player did for the Cavs. they went from 1st to last.

"winning isn't everything, it's the only thing".

Love's numbers have been great, but there's got to be something said about his team being 11th. his team is somewhat irrelevant in the playoff picture. yeah, it isn't always the best player is on the best team, and since Malone never won a championship, that doesn't keep him from being a great player. the difference is Love's team is 11th in the standings and they haven't been to the playoffs with him yet.

it's a team sport but the biggest team sport where individuals make up teams rather than teams making up teams. he just isn't there yet.

On the Wolves current roster aside from the injured Rubio and Pek, who is a legitimate starter on that team? I'll give you a headstart Love and?.......

Swashcuff
03-26-2012, 01:43 PM
Well that sucks for him then.

Would he be able to put up those number on a winning team with players who take up some of his shots and rebounds?....NO.

Do you watch Kevin Love play? He's a transcendent player. It matters not which team he plays for he's going to be effective regardless. He can be utilized in any possible capacity. He has done this his entire career its not as if its any different.

He would absolutely be as effective and even more efficient if he actually had support.

Blitzbolt
03-26-2012, 01:44 PM
Do you watch the Timberwolves at all or do you just go off course making rash claims? How on earth is Kevin Love a ball hog?

Kevin Love isn't even in the top 10 in USG% in the league and only THIS season he has had plays actually ran for him previous to this year he played independent of the system being the ultimate garbage man. Anyone who says Kevin Love is a ball hog SURELY doesn't watch the man play. SURELY.

I don't see Kevin Love play because his team sucks!!!and he never wins.I always see him 4 times a year playing vs the grizzlies and Zbo always owns him.

b@llhog24
03-26-2012, 01:44 PM
Well that sucks for him then.

Would he be able to put up those number on a winning team with players who take up some of his shots and rebounds?....NO.
The only player in the Nba who could hinder Love from getting Rebounds is Dwight Howard as for his shots, while his ppg may go down a point or two his already insane efficency would probably increase.


Which makes a HUGE difference.

No doubt man, I like Dirk but the man always had stacked rosters.

Swashcuff
03-26-2012, 01:47 PM
Kevin Love isn't Lebron, but look at the impact losing one player did for the Cavs. they went from 1st to last.

"winning isn't everything, it's the only thing".

Love's numbers have been great, but there's got to be something said about his team being 11th. his team is somewhat irrelevant in the playoff picture. yeah, it isn't always the best player is on the best team, and since Malone never won a championship, that doesn't keep him from being a great player. the difference is Love's team is 11th in the standings and they haven't been to the playoffs with him yet.

it's a team sport but the biggest team sport where individuals make up teams rather than teams making up teams. he just isn't there yet.

LeBron is an all time great talent and may one day go down as the best SF to ever play the game now you're going to compare Love to him?

LeBron is a point forward who changes every game in which he plays because of the fact that he is the one doing the decision making. He also had a defensive minded cast and coach that will built to suit all his strengths and weaknesses. Hell even LeBron had better support than Love has and not forgetting that LeBron played in a much easier EC than the current WC that Love is playing in.

I asked someone else to do an analysis of team, coaching, system, supporting cast, external factors etc earlier and I'll ask you to do the same. Break down both teams and their circumstances and tell me if you seriously believe that a player has to have a great record in order to be a top tier player.

Birdmannn
03-26-2012, 01:48 PM
I don't see Kevin Love play because his team sucks!!!and he never wins.I always see him 4 times a year playing vs the grizzlies and Zbo always owns him.

I like watching the Grizz a lot, but if they get embarrassed in the play offs this year im just going to laugh and laugh thinking of you crying at home.

Learn the game of basketball instead of being an annoying homerist fan.

Blitzbolt
03-26-2012, 01:48 PM
Lebron is not one of the best of all time because he has no rings.

theDOC
03-26-2012, 01:49 PM
I mean seriously. Look at all of the teams ahead of the Wolves and tell me how many of those teams have worst casts than Love's Wolves.

This is a team game bro. Love can't do everything for his team.

you're right, it is a team game, but if an individual was so great than tell me how his team is so bad? I mean, look at Lebron's impact on the Cavs: from best to worst. Love isn't Lebron, and I know you aren't trying to say that, but the best players make huge impacts on teams. it's just hard to say the best PF in the league is Love when his team isn't very good and Dirk just carried the Dallas Mavericks to a championship, and played his tail off.

I'm not even sure the Mavs supporting cast is all that much better. the one thing the Mavs do have is a versatile wing in Marion, but outside of that it's really not anything substantial. Pekovic is a great center, Ridnour/Barea is a very good PG duo, and Williams looks like an All Star sometimes. they have some serious talent on that team.

Swashcuff
03-26-2012, 01:49 PM
I don't see Kevin Love play because his team sucks!!!and he never wins.I always see him 4 times a year playing vs the grizzlies and Zbo always owns him.

This is all that needs to be said. You're just a waste of time.

Blitzbolt
03-26-2012, 01:51 PM
If having the best PF in the NBA gets you 11 in the west I'll pass.

Birdmannn
03-26-2012, 01:51 PM
Lebron is not one of the best of all time because he has no rings.

Damn I wish I could delete people that anger me. Mods give me these powers so I can remove dumb people. PLEASE

theDOC
03-26-2012, 01:52 PM
LeBron is an all time great talent and may one day go down as the best SF to ever play the game now you're going to compare Love to him?

LeBron is a point forward who changes every game in which he plays because of the fact that he is the one doing the decision making. He also had a defensive minded cast and coach that will built to suit all his strengths and weaknesses. Hell even LeBron had better support than Love has and not forgetting that LeBron played in a much easier EC than the current WC that Love is playing in.

I asked someone else to do an analysis of team, coaching, system, supporting cast, external factors etc earlier and I'll ask you to do the same. Break down both teams and their circumstances and tell me if you seriously believe that a player has to have a great record in order to be a top tier player.

no, that's not what I said. I said that to show you one player can make a team from worst to best.

Love isn't on a good team, he plays the most minutes in the league, and his team plays at one of the highest paces in the game. he's a great player, but I don't think he's the best PF in the game.

b@llhog24
03-26-2012, 01:54 PM
Damn I wish I could delete people that anger me. Mods give me these powers so I can remove dumb people. PLEASE

You can put him on your ignore list.

b@llhog24
03-26-2012, 01:55 PM
Lebron is not one of the best of all time because he has no rings.

:laugh2: Quick question do you think Iverson is better than Lebron?

Swashcuff
03-26-2012, 01:56 PM
you're right, it is a team game, but if an individual was so great than tell me how his team is so bad? I mean, look at Lebron's impact on the Cavs: from best to worst. Love isn't Lebron, and I know you aren't trying to say that, but the best players make huge impacts on teams. it's just hard to say the best PF in the league is Love when his team isn't very good and Dirk just carried the Dallas Mavericks to a championship, and played his tail off.

I'm not even sure the Mavs supporting cast is all that much better. the one thing the Mavs do have is a versatile wing in Marion, but outside of that it's really not anything substantial. Pekovic is a great center, Ridnour/Barea is a very good PG duo, and Williams looks like an All Star sometimes. they have some serious talent on that team.

Tell me something. Is Kevin Garnett a great player? How about Dwyane Wade? How about Kareem Abdul Jabbar? How about Charles Barkley? I can go on for hours with names. Do you know what all these players have in common with Kevin Love? They all missed the playoffs in the prime of their careers.

Again be holistic. All you look at is one or two players with one or two plays and say arbitrary things like Williams looks like an All Star sometimes. I mean seriously that's your assessment of a player? Pekovic has broken out this season but is still learning to play the game and has been injured for a large part of the season. At the time of Rubio's injury the Wolves were in the playoff hunt, J.J. has been injured himself hell they don't even have a solid starting SG or SF. How on earth do you expect to win with that?

The Mavs had a top 10 player at each position last season one of the best 6th men in the game, a veteran coach a proven system and a game changing defensive C. How can you seriously say his cast isn't that much better than Love's. Give Love that kind of support last season and they easily win 50 games maybe not win in the finals but would be a serious post season contender.

Blitzbolt
03-26-2012, 01:56 PM
:laugh2: Quick question do you think Iverson is better than Lebron?

I don't give a dam about both of them they are not winners.

Tim13erpuppy
03-26-2012, 01:56 PM
you have to remember where the wolves were last year. It was terrible. Just because they haven't turned it around to be the best team in the league in one year does not mean Love has failed. I think the fact that the Twolves has as many close games and difficult wins they have had this year is evidence that this team is in the middle of a transformation.
When they have a real full season to prepare, pek healthy and rubio healthy and hopefully kahn will add a few other plays to the basket I think you'll be surprised.
It blows my mind how many people say omg there 11th seed right now. Did you see them last year? they could have only dreamed of this. It's forward progress and I am certainly excited to see when it all comes together during a regular season how good this team can be.

Bigus Dogus
03-26-2012, 02:00 PM
Are people seriously still suggesting that a bad player on a good team is better than a good player on a bad team? Does anyone really believe Bill Russell was 8 times better than Wilt? Was Tim Duncan better than KG because he played with David Robinson and KG had garbage? Was Sam Cassell better than Gary Payton or John Stockton? Is Robert Horry a better SF than Lebron?

I can't believe people are even having this conversation.

Swashcuff
03-26-2012, 02:01 PM
no, that's not what I said. I said that to show you one player can make a team from worst to best.

That one player happens to be one of the best of his generation playing in a system that was built for him in a easier conference with a better supporting cast. LeBron wasn't the only reason the Cavs were as good as they were. Sure he's the biggest reason but he could have never been as effective if he wasn't surrounded by the shooters and defenders that he was.


Love isn't on a good team, he plays the most minutes in the league, and his team plays at one of the highest paces in the game. he's a great player, but I don't think he's the best PF in the game.

So then who is? Other than Dirk there is no other PF with a legitimate case. Gasol? He isn't even the 2nd best player on his team anymore place Love and that team and they'd be just as good as they are now. Place Love on the Clippers and they'd be even better. Dirk is a proven big time player/leader I can see why others would say he's better than Love currently but no one else.

b@llhog24
03-26-2012, 02:01 PM
I don't give a dam about both of them they are not winners.

And Z-bo is?

Hawkeye15
03-26-2012, 02:02 PM
And by his fourth year, Dirk had elevated the Mavs to a legitimate contender.

http://www.basketball-reference.com/teams/DAL/2002.html

look at that roster. Now compare it to Love's.

Next.

Birdmannn
03-26-2012, 02:03 PM
You can put him on your ignore list.

Tempting but I feel bad for all the other people that have to read his stupid and uneducated posts. So I will share the pain with everyone else when this delusion kid posts his dumb slander, until the day I get the power to remove him or someone with the power realizes all he does is shut down everyone that is not part of his team.
Its disgusting people call themselves fans of basketball and the NBA and then act so ignorant towards players that are not part of the team they cheer for.

Blitzbolt
03-26-2012, 02:04 PM
Are people seriously still suggesting that a bad player on a good team is better than a good player on a bad team? Does anyone really believe Bill Russell was 8 times better than Wilt? Was Tim Duncan better than KG because he played with David Robinson and KG had garbage? Was Sam Cassell better than Gary Payton or John Stockton? Is Robert Horry a better SF than Lebron?

I can't believe people are even having this conversation.

I think your missing the point all those guys won playoffs series and all of them have actually made the playoffs something Love is not even close to.All of them had winning records with their team something Love Hardly gets.

Hawkeye15
03-26-2012, 02:04 PM
I hate to damper on how well Kevin Love has been playing, but the T-Wolves are the 11th best team in the West right now, and this screams what Monta Ellis use to be:

a really good player who plays on one of the highest pace teams in the league, who's leading the league in minutes played, who's on team in 11th place.

I don't even think he's the best player at his position.

Ellis couldn't dream of Love's efficiency.

Swashcuff
03-26-2012, 02:05 PM
Know what's funny the Mavs (DEFENDING NBA CHAMPS) and Clippers are currently 4 games ahead of the Wolves in the West. If the Wolves win 4 games consecutively and either of those teams lose 4 they'd be equal, I wonder then if Love would be seen as best by the blind ones who only look at Ws.

Saying the Wolves are in 11th place but ignoring the fact that they haven't had a steady rotation at the Wings they lost there 2nd best player and J.J. and Pek has been in and out of the line-up all season long.

The only constant in the team has been Love and guess what he has his team 4 games off the pace of the defending world champs.

Ignorance is bliss ladies and gents.

:pity:

Hawkeye15
03-26-2012, 02:06 PM
Kevin Love isn't Lebron, but look at the impact losing one player did for the Cavs. they went from 1st to last.

"winning isn't everything, it's the only thing".

Love's numbers have been great, but there's got to be something said about his team being 11th. his team is somewhat irrelevant in the playoff picture. yeah, it isn't always the best player is on the best team, and since Malone never won a championship, that doesn't keep him from being a great player. the difference is Love's team is 11th in the standings and they haven't been to the playoffs with him yet.

it's a team sport but the biggest team sport where individuals make up teams rather than teams making up teams. he just isn't there yet.

When did I say he was LeBron?

His team was the worst in the league the last 2 years as they dismantled the roster around him and rebuilt. The Wolves have passed 11 teams in the standings this season. So next year, when they win 45-50 games, what will be the excuse at that point?

Hawkeye15
03-26-2012, 02:08 PM
I don't see Kevin Love play because his team sucks!!!and he never wins.I always see him 4 times a year playing vs the grizzlies and Zbo always owns him.

If you don't watch him play, your opinion is irrelevant.

Hawkeye15
03-26-2012, 02:11 PM
no, that's not what I said. I said that to show you one player can make a team from worst to best.

Love isn't on a good team, he plays the most minutes in the league, and his team plays at one of the highest paces in the game. he's a great player, but I don't think he's the best PF in the game.

There are probably 2-3 players in history that can drag garbage rosters to #1 seeds. LeBron is one of them. So trying to throw him into your argument is failed logic to begin with.

You understand how much better the Wolves are this season, right? You understand their core is young, and they lost their PG (at the time had a +.500 record and were in the playoffs), right? You understand their breakout center has bone spurs in his ankles, right? You understand outside those 3 players, the Wolves have 0 players that would start on a good team, right?

Blitzbolt
03-26-2012, 02:15 PM
There are probably 2-3 players in history that can drag garbage rosters to #1 seeds. LeBron is one of them. So trying to throw him into your argument is failed logic to begin with.

You understand how much better the Wolves are this season, right? You understand their core is young, and they lost their PG (at the time had a +.500 record and were in the playoffs), right? You understand their breakout center has bone spurs in his ankles, right? You understand outside those 3 players, the Wolves have 0 players that would start on a good team, right?

And the wolves are the only ones with this issues???Is that stopping The Grizzlies,Denver,Utah,Bucks,Philly ect ect.. from winning??

You acting like Love is playing with a WNBA team.

ChiSox219
03-26-2012, 02:15 PM
I hate to damper on how well Kevin Love has been playing, but the T-Wolves are the 11th best team in the West right now, and this screams what Monta Ellis use to be:

a really good player who plays on one of the highest pace teams in the league, who's leading the league in minutes played, who's on team in 11th place.

I don't even think he's the best player at his position.

+1


Love is great but people get so carried away because he gets a lot of points and rebounds, might as well call Wilt the GOAT.

theDOC
03-26-2012, 02:16 PM
There are probably 2-3 players in history that can drag garbage rosters to #1 seeds. LeBron is one of them. So trying to throw him into your argument is failed logic to begin with.

You understand how much better the Wolves are this season, right? You understand their core is young, and they lost their PG (at the time had a +.500 record and were in the playoffs), right? You understand their breakout center has bone spurs in his ankles, right? You understand outside those 3 players, the Wolves have 0 players that would start on a good team, right?

it's not failed logic, whatever that is supposed to entirely mean.

I'm saying that one player changes the success of a team.

Bigus Dogus
03-26-2012, 02:18 PM
I think your missing the point all those guys won playoffs series and all of them have actually made the playoffs something Love is not even close to.All of them had winning records with their team something Love Hardly gets.

I'm not missing the point at all. You are arbitrarily drawing a line you call "winning" and move it when it serves your argument. Is winning being above 500? Making the playoffs? winning a series? Winning a championship?

Kevin Love has won a lot of games in the NBA, so is it because he hasn't won enough games in 3+ years to get to the playoffs? The wolves would easily make the playoffs in the east this year, even without Rubio. Would that make Love a better player?

Garnett didn't win a playoff series until Sprewell and Casell were added. Was he a better player then? Did he get even better when he went to Boston and played with Rondo, Payton and Pierce?

There is a reason that almost all championship teams have more than one Hall of Famer on them: you need several great players to win in the NBA. And you need multiple all time greats to even have a shot at a championship. Disparaging Love because he was not drafted by a team that already had a hall of famer like David Robinson is just absurd.

CudiOnMyiPod
03-26-2012, 02:19 PM
Tell me something. Do you think 4th year Dirk could elevate this Wolves team to a legimate contender. Now I want you to take all factors into consideration. Support, coaching, system, chemistry etc.

Rick Adelman is a better coach than Don Nelson and Avery Johnson by far so he would have a better coach.

He would have a legit center (Pekovic) that he had never had until Chandler.
Rubio and Williams would be two great building pieces.

4th year Dirk in place of Love and this team is better and has a better chance to win in the playoffs. However, Dirk would have to be relied on as even more of a scorer. This team with 4th year Dirk most likely won't beat Miami or Chicago or maybe not even OKC but it could get to the WCF. Dirk was (and still is) that good.

Swashcuff
03-26-2012, 02:19 PM
If you don't understand that basketball is a team sport then look no further than last season and the Mavs. They beat 3 teams that had an all NBA first team and an all NBA second team on them. Dirk didn't even need to be anywhere near his best when they ousted the defending champs in 4 games. That's how good the Mavs cast was. Despite the fact that the Lakers had Gasol and Kobe, the Thunder had Durant and Westbrook and the Heat had Wade and LeBron their T.E.A.M. was able to overcome the star power.

When will you guys understand this is a team sport and unless you have a quality supporting cast you can never be successful in such a sport unless you're truly a top tier all time great.

Hawkeye15
03-26-2012, 02:20 PM
I think your missing the point all those guys won playoffs series and all of them have actually made the playoffs something Love is not even close to.All of them had winning records with their team something Love Hardly gets.

You are not making a point outside the fact that you clearly have no idea how to evaluate an individual in a team sport. You have used failed logic in nearly every post you have made. By your rational, there can not be a good player on a bad team. Now, different teams are in different stages. Some are old. Some are young. Some are rebuilding. Some are terribly managed. The point is, there are only a few elite teams in any given year. So, you are choosing to harp on a player that was drafted into a team that was rebuilding, flipping rosters, coaches, and everything else possible, and is their franchise player of the future, because his front office didn't have the championship groundwork provided for him day 1 like a Duncan or Kobe had.

I find it hilarious that you are bringing up LeBron is your loser angle. Actually, not hilarious, intentional.

You need to stop with team sports if you truly don't understand how to evaluate. Start watching tennis. Your theory works perfect in that sport.

theDOC
03-26-2012, 02:20 PM
So then who is? Other than Dirk there is no other PF with a legitimate case. Gasol? He isn't even the 2nd best player on his team anymore place Love and that team and they'd be just as good as they are now. Place Love on the Clippers and they'd be even better. Dirk is a proven big time player/leader I can see why others would say he's better than Love currently but no one else.

there's your answer.

Griffin is beyond raw. he doesn't like to shoot mid-range shots and will even refuse to sometimes. he's got a long way to go, and Love is definitely a better player, although I'm not sure how much better of a fit Love would be on that team.

Hawkeye15
03-26-2012, 02:21 PM
it's not failed logic, whatever that is supposed to entirely mean.

I'm saying that one player changes the success of a team.

Yes they do. But every player is different. Outside of LeBron, there aren't any players who can make a garbage team a top 4 seed. None. Why you choose LeBron to compare Love to is beyond me, I suppose its because its the one guy that proves your point. It is failed logic, because that logic fails the majority of the time.

Hawkeye15
03-26-2012, 02:23 PM
+1


Love is great but people get so carried away because he gets a lot of points and rebounds, might as well call Wilt the GOAT.

Remove Love from the Wolves the past 2 years. What would you get?

Swashcuff
03-26-2012, 02:24 PM
Rick Adelman is a better coach than Don Nelson and Avery Johnson by far so he would have a better coach.

He would have a legit center (Pekovic) that he had never had until Chandler.
Rubio and Williams would be two great building pieces.

4th year Dirk in place of Love and this team is better and has a better chance to win in the playoffs. However, Dirk would have to be relied on as even more of a scorer. This team with 4th year Dirk most likely won't beat Miami or Chicago or maybe not even OKC but it could get to the WCF. Dirk was (and still is) that good.

Really? Really? Are you serious? You think with no Rubio (lost to injury for the entire 2nd half) Williams who has a good game one out of every 8 and Pekovic who can't play 5 straight games consistently without having to sit out 2-3 here and there that that team would be better than the Mavs ran by one of the greatest offensive PGs ever and an all star calibre SG in a proven working system that has been in place for every season of Dirk's career under the same head coach.

You seriously think that this Wolves cast is better than Nash and Finley and Nick Van Exel etc etc

Wow just wow you guys are seriously beyond delusional.

theDOC
03-26-2012, 02:27 PM
If you don't understand that basketball is a team sport then look no further than last season and the Mavs. They beat 3 teams that had an all NBA first team and an all NBA second team on them. Dirk didn't even need to be anywhere near his best when they ousted the defending champs in 4 games. That's how good the Mavs cast was. Despite the fact that the Lakers had Gasol and Kobe, the Thunder had Durant and Westbrook and the Heat had Wade and LeBron their T.E.A.M. was able to overcome the star power.

When will you guys understand this is a team sport and unless you have a quality supporting cast you can never be successful in such a sport unless you're truly a top tier all time great.

Dirk carried that team, period.

all of the games were good games outside of the last one in the Lakers series.

I'd say that 48 point game shooting 80% from the floor and hitting 24/24 free throws in a single digit win constitutes as carrying a team. he also had a 40 point game to come back from 15 in Game 2.

in the Finals he was lights out and had two game winners... come on man.

it's a team game obviously, but Dirk carried that team.

Swashcuff
03-26-2012, 02:27 PM
it's not failed logic, whatever that is supposed to entirely mean.

I'm saying that one player changes the success of a team.

Your logic is that a player can take a team from worst to first (which is not the case here but whatever) and that is indeed a failed logic when discussing the task at hand. You're basically comparing a top 10 player in the league currently to about 5 or 6 of the greatest players of all time who could possibly have done that. The logic is failed. How can that seriously apply to everyone across the board.

CudiOnMyiPod
03-26-2012, 02:28 PM
http://www.basketball-reference.com/teams/DAL/2002.html

look at that roster. Now compare it to Love's.

Next.

Dirk had Nash and Finley but outside of that what was special?

Van Exel was a solid player but nothing else.
Howard put up some numbers but was not that great.
Shawn Bradley was awful.
Griffin, Hardaway, and LaFrentz were role players.
Eschmeyer, Abdul-Wahad, Bell, Harvey, Johnson, Zhi-Zhi and Newman were either complete scrubs or at the very best decent contributors on some nights.

Dirk was unbelievably good back then and due to his elite play, they were elite that year.

That Dallas team wasn't that much more talented than Love's 2012 team.

Rubio, Williams, and Pekovic are all really good players.
Ellington, Barea, Beasley, Tolliver and Johnson are all solid bench players.

theDOC
03-26-2012, 02:28 PM
Yes they do. But every player is different. Outside of LeBron, there aren't any players who can make a garbage team a top 4 seed. None. Why you choose LeBron to compare Love to is beyond me, I suppose its because its the one guy that proves your point. It is failed logic, because that logic fails the majority of the time.

that logic doesn't fail ever. the greatest players put there teams over the top. the Lebron example was used to show how extreme it can be.

Blitzbolt
03-26-2012, 02:29 PM
Wolves-Love=one of the worst teams in the NBA.
Wolves+Love=one of the worst teams in the NBA.

Birdmannn
03-26-2012, 02:30 PM
You are not making a point outside the fact that you clearly have no idea how to evaluate an individual in a team sport. You have used failed logic in nearly every post you have made. By your rational, there can not be a good player on a bad team. Now, different teams are in different stages. Some are old. Some are young. Some are rebuilding. Some are terribly managed. The point is, there are only a few elite teams in any given year. So, you are choosing to harp on a player that was drafted into a team that was rebuilding, flipping rosters, coaches, and everything else possible, and is their franchise player of the future, because his front office didn't have the championship groundwork provided for him day 1 like a Duncan or Kobe had.

I find it hilarious that you are bringing up LeBron is your loser angle. Actually, not hilarious, intentional.

You need to stop with team sports if you truly don't understand how to evaluate. Start watching tennis. Your theory works perfect in that sport.

Agreed. Ban him he doesnt comprehend basketball at all. :p

Swashcuff
03-26-2012, 02:30 PM
Dirk carried that team, period.

all of the games were good games outside of the last one in the Lakers series.

I'd say that 48 point game shooting 80% from the floor and hitting 24/24 free throws in a single digit win constitutes as carrying a team. he also had a 40 point game to come back from 15 in Game 2.

in the Finals he was lights out and had two game winners... come on man.

it's a team game obviously, but Dirk carried that team.

That's what stars do. Carry their team. Period. But its still a team. A great supporting cast at that.

Kidd, Terry, Marion and Chandler were all top 10-12 players at their position. How many players on the Wolves can you say that about outside of Love?

Your logic here again is failed. Jordan carried his teams that doesn't mean he had a poor supporting cast, same for Russell, Bird, Duncan, Shaq etc. They've all had great supporting casts. So I don't see what you're trying to say.

theDOC
03-26-2012, 02:31 PM
Your logic is that a player can take a team from worst to first (which is not the case here but whatever) and that is indeed a failed logic when discussing the task at hand. You're basically comparing a top 10 player in the league currently to about 5 or 6 of the greatest players of all time who could possibly have done that. The logic is failed. How can that seriously apply to everyone across the board.

that logic is not failed at all.

the greatest players make their teams. in fact, one player can take their team from worst to best. that's proven. that's factual. does every great player take their team from worst to best? no.

CudiOnMyiPod
03-26-2012, 02:32 PM
Really? Really? Are you serious? You think with no Rubio (lost to injury for the entire 2nd half) Williams who has a good game one out of every 8 and Pekovic who can't play 5 straight games consistently without having to sit out 2-3 here and there that that team would be better than the Mavs ran by one of the greatest offensive PGs ever and an all star calibre SG in a proven working system that has been in place for every season of Dirk's career under the same head coach.

You seriously think that this Wolves cast is better than Nash and Finley and Nick Van Exel etc etc

Wow just wow you guys are seriously beyond delusional.

Where did I say they were better?

I said 4th year Dirk + 2012 Wolves is better than 2012 Wolves with Love.


And do not name Nick Van Exel.. He had one great playoff run but outside of that, he was a bench player...

theDOC
03-26-2012, 02:33 PM
That's what stars do. Carry their team. Period. But its still a team. A great supporting cast at that.

Kidd, Terry, Marion and Chandler were all top 10-12 players at their position. How many players on the Wolves can you say that about outside of Love?

Your logic here again is failed. Jordan carried his teams that doesn't mean he had a poor supporting cast, same for Russell, Bird, Duncan, Shaq etc. They've all had great supporting casts. So I don't see what you're trying to say.

Terry, Kidd, and maybe Marion are not top 10 at their position.

Hawkeye15
03-26-2012, 02:33 PM
Dirk had Nash and Finley but outside of that what was special?

Van Exel was a solid player but nothing else.
Howard put up some numbers but was not that great.
Shawn Bradley was awful.
Griffin, Hardaway, and LaFrentz were role players.
Eschmeyer, Abdul-Wahad, Bell, Harvey, Johnson, Zhi-Zhi and Newman were either complete scrubs or at the very best decent contributors on some nights.

Dirk was unbelievably good back then and due to his elite play, they were elite that year.

That Dallas team wasn't that much more talented than Love's 2012 team.

Rubio, Williams, and Pekovic are all really good players.
Ellington, Barea, Beasley, Tolliver and Johnson are all solid bench players.


Nash and Finley were special, yes. Much better than Rubio and Pekovic (Williams has struggled to even find a role). The Mavs role players were superior down the line to the Wolves. Love statistically was better than Dirk in his 4th year. If you can really look at those rosters side by side and think they are comparable when factoring in all circumstances, I don't know what to tell ya bud. The Mavs also didn't go into that season with a new coach, a rookie PG that was held back initially, no offense yet, no defense yet, and no major injuries to their star players. Nash was much better than Rubio at that point. Finley was a TON better than anything the Wolves had outside Love.

Bigbadmoffo
03-26-2012, 02:34 PM
I don't care if he Drops 40 and 40 from here on out.

Wins is the best stat out there and Love never wins.

You guys gotta realize a pf can't run the game like a 3, 2 0r 1. The wolves are a young inexperienced team. I guy like Howard has a bigger impact cause of his defense but even his team is better built for him.

CudiOnMyiPod
03-26-2012, 02:35 PM
That's what stars do. Carry their team. Period. But its still a team. A great supporting cast at that.

Kidd, Terry, Marion and Chandler were all top 10-12 players at their position. How many players on the Wolves can you say that about outside of Love?

Your logic here again is failed. Jordan carried his teams that doesn't mean he had a poor supporting cast, same for Russell, Bird, Duncan, Shaq etc. They've all had great supporting casts. So I don't see what you're trying to say.

I find it funny that prior to beating Miami, many people said Kidd and Marion were garbage and too old, that Jason Terry sucked, Tyson didn't get near the respect he has gotten with NY, etc.. and now all of a sudden they are great players? They have always been great.

And if you look at all of the 4th quarters in the WCF and Finals, you will see how in the end, Dirk was the best player in the league at closing out games.

He had 62 points by himself in the 4th quarters of the Finals. LeBron and Wade had 61, combined.

Hawkeye15
03-26-2012, 02:35 PM
that logic doesn't fail ever. the greatest players put there teams over the top. the Lebron example was used to show how extreme it can be.

You are picking 1 of less than 5 that are capable of lifting garbage to 55+ wins. So yes, mathematically, its a fail. The greats do put their teams over the top. But that is not what you said. You claim the greats turn their teams into winners no matter what the circumstances are. That is false. Plenty of great players play for losing teams, especially early in their careers, when they were drafted high (and why are we drafted high ladies and gents, typically? Because the team selecting me sucks).

Swashcuff
03-26-2012, 02:38 PM
Dirk had Nash and Finley but outside of that what was special?

Van Exel was a solid player but nothing else.
Howard put up some numbers but was not that great.
Shawn Bradley was awful.
Griffin, Hardaway, and LaFrentz were role players.
Eschmeyer, Abdul-Wahad, Bell, Harvey, Johnson, Zhi-Zhi and Newman were either complete scrubs or at the very best decent contributors on some nights.

Dirk was unbelievably good back then and due to his elite play, they were elite that year.

That Dallas team wasn't that much more talented than Love's 2012 team.

Rubio, Williams, and Pekovic are all really good players.
Ellington, Barea, Beasley, Tolliver and Johnson are all solid bench players.

Dirk had Nash and Finely who does Love have? Rubio isn't anywhere near Nash's level and combined Pek and Williams aren't as good as Finely by himself. Ellington, Beasley, Tolliver and Johnson are not solid bench players. Especially Johnson. Nash was a friggin ALL STAR and made the ALL NBA 3rd team.

Prior to being traded to the Mavs Van Exel was averaging 21 and 8. 21 and 8 you're telling me that's nothing special? Are you out of your mind? Adrian Griffin and Greg Buckner were better perimeter defenders than any swingman love has ever played with.

Bigbadmoffo
03-26-2012, 02:38 PM
Nash and Finley were special, yes. Much better than Rubio and Pekovic (Williams has struggled to even find a role). The Mavs role players were superior down the line to the Wolves. Love statistically was better than Dirk in his 4th year. If you can really look at those rosters side by side and think they are comparable when factoring in all circumstances, I don't know what to tell ya bud. The Mavs also didn't go into that season with a new coach, a rookie PG that was held back initially, no offense yet, no defense yet, and no major injuries to their star players. Nash was much better than Rubio at that point. Finley was a TON better than anything the Wolves had outside Love.

This I mean how can you even say that they where close. The twolves are not really that good of a team - Love. All the rookies have yet to prove much except for Pekovic and Rubio but there impact as young players is minimal. Team has loads of potential but they need some d and vets players.

CudiOnMyiPod
03-26-2012, 02:38 PM
Nash and Finley were special, yes. Much better than Rubio and Pekovic (Williams has struggled to even find a role). The Mavs role players were superior down the line to the Wolves. Love statistically was better than Dirk in his 4th year. If you can really look at those rosters side by side and think they are comparable when factoring in all circumstances, I don't know what to tell ya bud. The Mavs also didn't go into that season with a new coach, a rookie PG that was held back initially, no offense yet, no defense yet, and no major injuries to their star players. Nash was much better than Rubio at that point. Finley was a TON better than anything the Wolves had outside Love.

Let me change it up.

If you put 2012 Love on last year's Mavs in place of Dirk, how do they fare?

theDOC
03-26-2012, 02:38 PM
You are picking 1 of less than 5 that are capable of lifting garbage to 55+ wins. So yes, mathematically, its a fail. The greats do put their teams over the top. But that is not what you said. You claim the greats turn their teams into winners no matter what the circumstances are. That is false. Plenty of great players play for losing teams, especially early in their careers, when they were drafted high (and why are we drafted high ladies and gents, typically? Because the team selecting me sucks).

I'm not going to argue with you, but it isn't failed logic because it happened.

it isn't that severe with all great players, like I've already said multiple times, but it did happen.

ChiSox219
03-26-2012, 02:38 PM
Remove Love from the Wolves the past 2 years. What would you get?

A lottery team...

my point had nothing to do with team success tho so don't group me in with the other guy in that regard

Swashcuff
03-26-2012, 02:39 PM
Terry, Kidd, and maybe Marion are not top 10 at their position.

They all had legitimate cases last season no doubt about that. They were all easily top 12. I'd love to see you argue against that.

Hawkeye15
03-26-2012, 02:39 PM
Let me change it up.

If you put 2012 Love on last year's Mavs in place of Dirk, how do they fare?

Now you want me to speculate? How can I possibly give a real answer without seeing whether Love is KG or Barkley come playoff time (ie, stats go down, stats go up)?

theDOC
03-26-2012, 02:40 PM
Let me change it up.

If you put 2012 Love on last year's Mavs in place of Dirk, how do they fare?

the Mavs aren't winning it, period.

Swashcuff
03-26-2012, 02:41 PM
I find it funny that prior to beating Miami, many people said Kidd and Marion were garbage and too old, that Jason Terry sucked, Tyson didn't get near the respect he has gotten with NY, etc.. and now all of a sudden they are great players? They have always been great.

And if you look at all of the 4th quarters in the WCF and Finals, you will see how in the end, Dirk was the best player in the league at closing out games.

He had 62 points by himself in the 4th quarters of the Finals. LeBron and Wade had 61, combined.

What does Dirk's play have to do with this? We're talking about their supporting casts.

You must have been watching another NBA because NO ONE was saying that about the Mavs. Chandler was getting the respect from game one especially for the difference in the Mavs D and his offensive efficiency. Kidd was getting the respecting for transcending his game offensively while still being effective defensively and Terry? What are you talking about he was in the conversation for SMOY all season long. No one said Marion was garbage you seriously got to be kidding me.

last stand
03-26-2012, 02:41 PM
He's so much better than griffin it's not even close. Love is a 10 and griffins like a 5

CudiOnMyiPod
03-26-2012, 02:41 PM
Dirk had Nash and Finely who does Love have? Rubio isn't anywhere near Nash's level and combined Pek and Williams aren't as good as Finely by himself. Ellington, Beasley, Tolliver and Johnson are not solid bench players. Especially Johnson. Nash was a friggin ALL STAR and made the ALL NBA 3rd team.

Prior to being traded to the Mavs Van Exel was averaging 21 and 8. 21 and 8 you're telling me that's nothing special? Are you out of your mind? Adrian Griffin and Greg Buckner were better perimeter defenders than any swingman love has ever played with.

PRIOR. How did he do with Dallas? He was decent here. Nothing near 21 and 8...

Dirk did have an All Star and a pretty good SG but when you go down to role players, it really isn't far off.

Hawkeye15
03-26-2012, 02:42 PM
A lottery team...

my point had nothing to do with team success tho so don't group me in with the other guy in that regard

Please dude, you know I have too much respect to lump you in with these guys. I know your stance regarding Love, and though I don't agree with it, I will continue to poke and prod you so I can see what you are seeing.

You know Love has not been given the minutes early, the coaching, roster help, or continuity until last year (sort of). He has a good coach now, and finally had a good player in Rubio and an emerging Pek, and his numbers translated into what would have been a 45 win season when Rubio went down. So at what point does your focus shift from trying to examine his limitations, into supporting the general notion that he is the best PF in the game and a top 5-8 player? What is the breaking point for you?

Swashcuff
03-26-2012, 02:43 PM
Where did I say they were better?

I said 4th year Dirk + 2012 Wolves is better than 2012 Wolves with Love.


And do not name Nick Van Exel.. He had one great playoff run but outside of that, he was a bench player...

Dude apparently you don't understand the discussion. Do you think that this Timberwolves team would be championship contenders with 4th year Dirk as the Mavs were in his 4th year? Since you were the one who smartly brought it up that Dirk by himself made the Mavs contenders.

Hawkeye15
03-26-2012, 02:44 PM
the Mavs aren't winning it, period.

Highly doubt they would. How many years did it take Dirk with a dominant roster to finally win a ring?

Swashcuff
03-26-2012, 02:44 PM
that logic is not failed at all.

the greatest players make their teams. in fact, one player can take their team from worst to best. that's proven. that's factual. does every great player take their team from worst to best? no.

That's the whole point. The logic is failed. We're talking about Kevin Love not Michael Jordan. How on earth could such a logic apply then? Makes no sense.

ChiSox219
03-26-2012, 02:44 PM
Prior to being traded to the Mavs Van Exel was averaging 21 and 8. 21 and 8 you're telling me that's nothing special? Are you out of your mind?

Many players can get 20 if they take 20 shots and handle the ball the majority of the time.

CudiOnMyiPod
03-26-2012, 02:45 PM
What does Dirk's play have to do with this? We're talking about their supporting casts.

You must have been watching another NBA because NO ONE was saying that about the Mavs. Chandler was getting the respect from game one especially for the difference in the Mavs D and his offensive efficiency. Kidd was getting the respecting for transcending his game offensively while still being effective defensively and Terry? What are you talking about he was in the conversation for SMOY all season long. No one said Marion was garbage you seriously got to be kidding me.

Round 1 vs Portland was a guaranteed loss for Dallas.
Then when we got "lucky", it was a guaranteed sweep against the defending champions.
Then when Kobe and Gasol were "tired", we beat them and had zero chance to stay close to OKC.
When OKC was all of a sudden "too young" no one in the world gave these washed up players a chance and they went out and beat Miami.

Terry may have gotten some respect but Marion and Kidd were garnered as washed up players all year.

Chandler wasn't highly praised until midway through the playoffs when his defense was so critical to get us to the next step.

Blitzbolt
03-26-2012, 02:47 PM
This guys are Wolves fan's they defend their boi whit all they have.

Love might the best...........white player in the NBA and that's it.

Swashcuff
03-26-2012, 02:47 PM
PRIOR. How did he do with Dallas? He was decent here. Nothing near 21 and 8...

Dirk did have an All Star and a pretty good SG but when you go down to role players, it really isn't far off.

Decent? He was 2nd among all 6th men in scoring during his second half run with the Mavs. That's far better than any of Love's bench players have been able to do.

Now you're seriously going to compare ROLE PLAYERS. Roles that damn near any player could fill. Tell me something who makes the bigger difference in Wins star players or role players?

Hawkeye15
03-26-2012, 02:48 PM
PRIOR. How did he do with Dallas? He was decent here. Nothing near 21 and 8...

Dirk did have an All Star and a pretty good SG but when you go down to role players, it really isn't far off.

Arguing things that have no shred of proof doesn't work man. 4th year Dirk would have dropped the Wolves in rebounding, wouldn't have helped on defense, and taken away a FT a game. In turn, the Wolves would have had a slightly more effective midrange shooter. Defense is a wash.

You are underrating that Mavs roster dude. Finley absolutely killed a lot of teams, and Nash was already awesome. They also had shooters and dirty work guys. They didn't suffer any major injuries either. They also had continuity entering the season. Major differences.

CudiOnMyiPod
03-26-2012, 02:49 PM
Highly doubt they would. How many years did it take Dirk with a dominant roster to finally win a ring?

Dirk never had a dominant roster until last season...

Dampier, Diop and Bradley were Dirk's starting centers.
The year's Dirk had Nash and Finley, the Mavs had bad role players.
For the majority of Dirks career, Jason Terry (a 6th man) has been Dirk's second best player.
Josh Howard was regarded as the 2nd best player next to Dirk for a few years and now a few years later he is hardly even a role player.

The first year Dallas went to the Finals, Dampier and Griffin were starters. Jerry Stackhouse who was a bench player was regarded as one of their top scoring threats.

Dirk has never had a dominant roster until last year's.

theDOC
03-26-2012, 02:49 PM
They all had legitimate cases last season no doubt about that. They were all easily top 12. I'd love to see you argue against that.

in all my years, I've never heard someone use "top 12".

and I don't have time nor care to make three lists, but I'll try point guard:

point guards:
Chris Paul
Deron Williams
Russell Westbrook
Derrick Rose
Steve Nash
Rajon Rondo
John Wall
Kyle Lowry
Tony Parker
Chauncey Billups
Stephen Curry
Ty Lawson

there's "12"

Swashcuff
03-26-2012, 02:49 PM
Many players can get 20 if they take 20 shots and handle the ball the majority of the time.

How many of those types of players currently play for Love's T'Wolves?

Swashcuff
03-26-2012, 02:50 PM
Round 1 vs Portland was a guaranteed loss for Dallas.
Then when we got "lucky", it was a guaranteed sweep against the defending champions.
Then when Kobe and Gasol were "tired", we beat them and had zero chance to stay close to OKC.
When OKC was all of a sudden "too young" no one in the world gave these washed up players a chance and they went out and beat Miami.

Terry may have gotten some respect but Marion and Kidd were garnered as washed up players all year.

Chandler wasn't highly praised until midway through the playoffs when his defense was so critical to get us to the next step.

:confused:

What is this? :laugh2:

Hawkeye15
03-26-2012, 02:51 PM
Many players can get 20 if they take 20 shots and handle the ball the majority of the time.

wait, are you calling Van Exel a chucker! :p

theDOC
03-26-2012, 02:51 PM
Highly doubt they would. How many years did it take Dirk with a dominant roster to finally win a ring?

it's not easy.

Hawkeye15
03-26-2012, 02:51 PM
Dirk never had a dominant roster until last season...
Dampier, Diop and Bradley were Dirk's starting centers.
The year's Dirk had Nash and Finley, the Mavs had bad role players.
For the majority of Dirks career, Jason Terry (a 6th man) has been Dirk's second best player.
Josh Howard was regarded as the 2nd best player next to Dirk for a few years and now a few years later he is hardly even a role player.

The first year Dallas went to the Finals, Dampier and Griffin were starters. Jerry Stackhouse who was a bench player was regarded as one of their top scoring threats.

Dirk has never had a dominant roster until last year's.

You just saved me a bunch of time, thank you.

CudiOnMyiPod
03-26-2012, 02:51 PM
Arguing things that have no shred of proof doesn't work man. 4th year Dirk would have dropped the Wolves in rebounding, wouldn't have helped on defense, and taken away a FT a game. In turn, the Wolves would have had a slightly more effective midrange shooter. Defense is a wash.

You are underrating that Mavs roster dude. Finley absolutely killed a lot of teams, and Nash was already awesome. They also had shooters and dirty work guys. They didn't suffer any major injuries either. They also had continuity entering the season. Major differences.

Dirk is probably the greatest mid range jump shooter of all time.

My overall point about the rosters is once playoffs hit, 90% of the time, the Mavs were a one man team with Dirk and it took 12 years for Dirk to get help in the playoffs.

Cfrey
03-26-2012, 02:53 PM
Just going to comment on page 5 since I feel like thats where everyone starts to say Love gets no love for being 11th in the west...

LOL we are like 2 games out of the 8th spot and the supporting cast is nothing like anyone elses in the playoffs..

**** people act like the wolves are 15 games out of a playoff spot

CudiOnMyiPod
03-26-2012, 02:54 PM
:confused:

What is this? :laugh2:

This is how it was. Then when we won, people started to talk about Marion and Kidd.

It's pretty simple...

Swashcuff
03-26-2012, 02:57 PM
in all my years, I've never heard someone use "top 12".

and I don't have time nor care to make three lists, but I'll try point guard:

point guards:
Chris Paul
Deron Williams
Russell Westbrook
Derrick Rose
Steve Nash
Rajon Rondo
John Wall
Kyle Lowry
Tony Parker
Chauncey Billups
Stephen Curry
Ty Lawson

there's "12"

Well allow me to give you PSD's list of last season.

http://forums.prosportsdaily.com/showthread.php?t=647640

Tyson Chandler was voted at #7

http://forums.prosportsdaily.com/showthread.php?t=635911

Shawn Marion very narrowly missed the cut for the top 10 but we can thank PSD's massive NYK population for that.

http://forums.prosportsdaily.com/showthread.php?t=632824

Jason Terry was voted #9 and many argued that he should be higher.

http://forums.prosportsdaily.com/showthread.php?t=629718

Jason Kidd was voted at #8. Based on his overall play throughout last season I and many other knowledgeable NBA fans can certainly see their POV.

CudiOnMyiPod
03-26-2012, 02:58 PM
Dude apparently you don't understand the discussion. Do you think that this Timberwolves team would be championship contenders with 4th year Dirk as the Mavs were in his 4th year? Since you were the one who smartly brought it up that Dirk by himself made the Mavs contenders.

They would be better yes.

People are acting like Dirk has always had stars around him and has had many other great players. It takes away from what he has done and makes it seem like people are saying he couldn't win with the "amazing talent" around him.

I haven't said that the T'Wolves roster is better than Dallas's was. I am saying it is closer than many people think..

And yes, Dirk himself made Dallas contenders. Take off a Chandler or a Terry and Dallas can still get to the WCF with everything going right for them. Take off Dirk and they are a bottom 10 team easily.

Swashcuff
03-26-2012, 03:00 PM
To the Love naysayers I ask you again. Show me a team that's in the playoff hunt in either conference that has an supporting cast that is worst than that of Kevin Love's. I'm waiting.

Blitzbolt
03-26-2012, 03:02 PM
To the Love naysayers I ask you again. Show me a team that's in the playoff hunt in either conference that has an supporting cast that is worst than that of Kevin Love's. I'm waiting.

Suns,bucks,Cavs,Utah/Denver.

Swashcuff
03-26-2012, 03:03 PM
They would be better yes.

People are acting like Dirk has always had stars around him and has had many other great players. It takes away from what he has done and makes it seem like people are saying he couldn't win with the "amazing talent" around him.

I haven't said that the T'Wolves roster is better than Dallas's was. I am saying it is closer than many people think..

And yes, Dirk himself made Dallas contenders. Take off a Chandler or a Terry and Dallas can still get to the WCF with everything going right for them. Take off Dirk and they are a bottom 10 team easily.

Answer the question. Are this year's Wolves anywhere near contenders with 4th year Dirk instead of Love?

Kevin Love has NEVER had Dirk like talent around him but we're going to say he isn't as good because of it?

Cfrey
03-26-2012, 03:04 PM
We are 6 and a half games back of the 3rd SEED in the WEST

but kevin love is just a stat stuffer and has had no IMPACT whatsoever from taking us out of the depths of the NBAs worst

Swashcuff
03-26-2012, 03:09 PM
Suns,bucks,Cavs,Utah/Denver.

The Cavs are 7 games out of the playoff contention they are way out.

The Bucks have one of the most underrated front lines in the game even without Andrew Bogut and now with the addition of Monta Ellis they're even more potent in the back court to go along with veteran players and a much better perimeter D.

The same Utah team that consists of one of the best all round frontlines in the game?

Marcin Gortat, Jared Dudley and Grant Hill alone is more than the Wolves entire supporting cast at the moment.

Denver? Not sure if serious. There one of the deepest teams in the league I find it really hard to believe that you're being for real.

Try again.

CudiOnMyiPod
03-26-2012, 03:10 PM
Answer the question. Are this year's Wolves anywhere near contenders with 4th year Dirk instead of Love?

Kevin Love has NEVER had Dirk like talent around him but we're going to say he isn't as good because of it?

Ok.

No they are not contenders but they are better and I wouldn't be surprised to see them get to the WCF.

I was naming the rosters to show exactly how good Dirk has been and how much he has won with mediocre talent next to him over his career (good talent last year).

I am not saying Love has a better roster than Dirk ever had.

And Love isn't as good as Dirk because he isn't as good as Dirk.

Cfrey
03-26-2012, 03:11 PM
someone ban blitzbolt.. the dude is either trolling way too hard or literally basketball incompetent

ChiSox219
03-26-2012, 03:11 PM
Please dude, you know I have too much respect to lump you in with these guys. I know your stance regarding Love, and though I don't agree with it, I will continue to poke and prod you so I can see what you are seeing.

You know Love has not been given the minutes early, the coaching, roster help, or continuity until last year (sort of). He has a good coach now, and finally had a good player in Rubio and an emerging Pek, and his numbers translated into what would have been a 45 win season when Rubio went down. So at what point does your focus shift from trying to examine his limitations, into supporting the general notion that he is the best PF in the game and a top 5-8 player? What is the breaking point for you?

My problem isn't with Love, I think he's a great player and his skill set is very valuable. I just don't see him as being clearly better than Gasol, Dirk, or Griffin yet so many people have Love as the no-brainer #1 PF.

When VDN left Chicago, Rose won MVP, makes you wonder what Blake will do next year with a competent coach (just look at what it's done for Love)

Gasol is in a **** situation having to play through the trade talk to start the season and Kobe's selfishness throughout. Gasol won 50 games with James Posey logging the second most minutes and Battier as the second best player, it's really hard for me to deny the effect Pau has on winning.

Swashcuff
03-26-2012, 03:14 PM
Ok.

No they are not contenders but they are better and I wouldn't be surprised to see them get to the WCF.

I was naming the rosters to show exactly how good Dirk has been and how much he has won with mediocre talent next to him over his career (good talent last year).

I am not saying Love has a better roster than Dirk ever had.

And Love isn't as good as Dirk because he isn't as good as Dirk.

This man just said that Dirk could carry this Love team minus Ricky Rubio to the WCF :laugh2:

He couldn't even carry that Mavs team that far that year and they were wayyyyy better than this Wolves team especially without Rubio

ChiSox219
03-26-2012, 03:15 PM
How many of those types of players currently play for Love's T'Wolves?

Several

Van Exel was always grossly overrated

Cfrey
03-26-2012, 03:15 PM
My problem isn't with Love, I think he's a great player and his skill set is very valuable. I just don't see him as being clearly better than Gasol, Dirk, or Griffin yet so many people have Love as the no-brainer #1 PF.

When VDN left Chicago, Rose won MVP, makes you wonder what Blake will do next year with a competent coach (just look at what it's done for Love)

Gasol is in a **** situation having to play through the trade talk to start the season and Kobe's selfishness throughout. Gasol won 50 games with James Posey logging the second most minutes and Battier as the second best player, it's really hard for me to deny the effect Pau has on winning.

A good coach isn't going to make Griffen start shooting lights out from 3.. A good coach isn't going to get Griffen 14 boards a game.. A good coach isn't going to teach Griffen to be clutch like Love..

Some people just got it, and Love has it.

Blitzbolt
03-26-2012, 03:17 PM
someone ban blitzbolt.. the dude is either trolling way too hard or literally basketball incompetent

???Just win some games that actually matter and then come back and call me Incompetent.

I'm sure that in the future Love will win some Playoff games but as in right now I don't care about his stats in the regular season is all about the post season where real players show up to play.

Swashcuff
03-26-2012, 03:17 PM
Several

Van Exel was always grossly overrated

Other than Michael Beasley I really can't see anyone else.

ChiSox219
03-26-2012, 03:18 PM
A good coach isn't going to make Griffen start shooting lights out from 3.. A good coach isn't going to get Griffen 14 boards a game.. A good coach isn't going to teach Griffen to be clutch like Love..

Some people just got it, and Love has it.

Griffin doesn't need to do any of that to be better than Love.

Swashcuff
03-26-2012, 03:19 PM
Griffin doesn't need to do any of that to be better than Love.

What does he need to do?

ChiSox219
03-26-2012, 03:19 PM
Other than Michael Beasley I really can't see anyone else.

Ridnour, Pek easily, Derrick Williams

Cfrey
03-26-2012, 03:20 PM
???Just win some games that actually matter and then come back and call Incompetent.

I'm sure that in the future Love will win some Playoff games but as in right now I don't care about his stats in the regular season is all about the post season where real players show up to play.

you are acting as if the Wolves are still in last year mode and are the worst team in the NBA!!!

These guys are 2.5 games out of the 8th spot.. and still have a shot at making the playoffs.. what dont you get about that?

Cfrey
03-26-2012, 03:21 PM
Ridnour, Pek easily, Derrick Williams

ridnour is so inconsistent its unreal...

pek has been out for awhile now

and williams is still a rookie who hasn't really done much at all actually

Swashcuff
03-26-2012, 03:21 PM
Ridnour, Pek easily, Derrick Williams

That's pure speculation. Williams hasn't even shown that he is capable of playing either F position exclusively Pek has broken out this season but that doesn't mean he can play and maintain a 21 PPG level all season long and Ridnour? Really?

ChiSox219
03-26-2012, 03:21 PM
What does he need to do?

Keep playing his game, Blake doesn't need to shoot 3's (though that's coming which is silly imo) and he already kills the glass.

ChiSox219
03-26-2012, 03:23 PM
That's pure speculation. Williams hasn't even shown that he is capable of playing either F position exclusively Pek has broken out this season but that doesn't mean he can play and maintain a 21 PPG level all season long and Ridnour? Really?

20 shots!!!

all those guys could suffer drops in efficiency and still drop 20 on 20

Swashcuff
03-26-2012, 03:26 PM
Guys wait just a cotton picking second. Where in the hell is LMA in all of this? Isn't he too better than Love because he lead his team to a post season berth? At least that's what damn near everyone of you Love naysayers were saying last season. So now that his team has an inferior record despite having a better supporting cast than Love he seems to have disappeared but he's even better this season than he was last.

Lets ignore the player however and focus on the team record without even attempting to ***** the TEAM itself.

The double standards you gents set really crack me up.

Blitzbolt
03-26-2012, 03:26 PM
you are acting as if the Wolves are still in last year mode and are the worst team in the NBA!!!

These guys are 2.5 games out of the 8th spot.. and still have a shot at making the playoffs.. what dont you get about that?

Worst teams in the west
NOH
Kings
Warriors
Wolves.

Cfrey
03-26-2012, 03:27 PM
Keep playing his game, Blake doesn't need to shoot 3's (though that's coming which is silly imo) and he already kills the glass.

of course griffen doesn't need to shoot 3s... thats not what I was saying at all

i was telling you the things Love has that will make him a much better player than griffen throughout his career

not to mention that Griffen cant even shoot a free throw and he plays so recklessly that I will be very surprised if he has a long and healthy career

Hawkeye15
03-26-2012, 03:28 PM
My problem isn't with Love, I think he's a great player and his skill set is very valuable. I just don't see him as being clearly better than Gasol, Dirk, or Griffin yet so many people have Love as the no-brainer #1 PF.

When VDN left Chicago, Rose won MVP, makes you wonder what Blake will do next year with a competent coach (just look at what it's done for Love)

Gasol is in a **** situation having to play through the trade talk to start the season and Kobe's selfishness throughout. Gasol won 50 games with James Posey logging the second most minutes and Battier as the second best player, it's really hard for me to deny the effect Pau has on winning.

I have no problem with any of this in the slightest. When I state I believe Love is the best PF in the NBA, I am not throwing it out as fact, I am throwing it out as my educated opinion. Nothing more, nothing less.

All factors aside, the Griffin versus Love debate needs to go to sleep until Blake proves otherwise.

Hawkeye15
03-26-2012, 03:30 PM
Ridnour, Pek easily, Derrick Williams

If they let Pek shoot 20 times a game, he would average 35 a night until he keeled over from overworking himself in game 55. Efficiency and Pekovic are twins.

Swashcuff
03-26-2012, 03:30 PM
20 shots!!!

all those guys could suffer drops in efficiency and still drop 20 on 20

But bro we're talking about taking 20 shots like if any and every one of those player can and will be able to do that. You're not going to just take 20 shots for the cause of it it has to be within reason and making your team better. If that were the case we'd be seeing Stuckey, Augustin, etc would be doing just that. Beasley is a natural attacking scorer just as Van Exel was it was their game which is why they were capable of doing it. It's not just like that you'd be seeing Ridnour, Pek or Williams attempting 20 from the field in the NBA. They wouldn't even get a shot to get near there ATM.

Hawkeye15
03-26-2012, 03:31 PM
Keep playing his game, Blake doesn't need to shoot 3's (though that's coming which is silly imo) and he already kills the glass.

He doesn't kill it like Love. He doesn't score nearly as efficiently as Love. He didn't do anything between years 1 and 2 to improve himself. As I said, that comparison needs to go dormant until Blake proves he belongs in the comparison.

Swashcuff
03-26-2012, 03:31 PM
Worst teams in the west
NOH
Kings
Warriors
Wolves.

Why not the Blazers?

Cfrey
03-26-2012, 03:32 PM
griffen jumped over the hood of a kia he is the best thing the world has ever seen

Swashcuff
03-26-2012, 03:34 PM
Keep playing his game, Blake doesn't need to shoot 3's (though that's coming which is silly imo) and he already kills the glass.

What exactly is his game?

So you don't think Blake needs to develop his game a bit more in terms of his offensive player (obviously I'm not talking about his perimeter game) and his D?

ChiSox219
03-26-2012, 03:35 PM
But bro we're talking about taking 20 shots like if any and every one of those player can and will be able to do that. You're not going to just take 20 shots for the cause of it it has to be within reason and making your team better. If that were the case we'd be seeing Stuckey, Augustin, etc would be doing just that. Beasley is a natural attacking scorer just as Van Exel was it was their game which is why they were capable of doing it. It's not just like that you'd be seeing Ridnour, Pek or Williams attempting 20 from the field in the NBA. They wouldn't even get a shot to get near there ATM.

Van Exel wasn't making his team better by taking 20 shots, the same goes for any of the Wolves players I mentioned.

Swashcuff
03-26-2012, 03:35 PM
griffen jumped over the hood of a kia he is the best thing the world has ever seen

For petes sake stop spelling the man's name incorrect I mean you know its spelled "Griffin" and make no bones about it he's a solid player Love is just better atm.

ChiSox219
03-26-2012, 03:38 PM
What exactly is his game?

So you don't think Blake needs to develop his game a bit more in terms of his offensive player (obviously I'm not talking about his perimeter game) and his D?

Of course he needs to refine, that's the natural progression of a young star. Blake doesn't need to add new dimensions like a 3 ball to be a better player than Love.

Swashcuff
03-26-2012, 03:46 PM
Of course he needs to refine, that's the natural progression of a young star. Blake doesn't need to add new dimensions like a 3 ball to be a better player than Love.

Well bro a refined post game (I'm assuming that this is one of the aspects you're speaking of) for Blake is adding a new dimension. Dwight is/was a young star and despite his natural progression he still isn't what one would consider as refined post player.

Love has shown that progression by showing vast improvements in every season of his NBA career.

I'm not disagreeing with you that Blake may indeed one day be the better player I'm just saying that Blake needs to improve on many aspects of his game to reach his full potential (one of the greatest PFs ever).

ChiSox219
03-26-2012, 03:48 PM
He doesn't kill it like Love. He doesn't score nearly as efficiently as Love. He didn't do anything between years 1 and 2 to improve himself. As I said, that comparison needs to go dormant until Blake proves he belongs in the comparison.

back to rebounding... basically no difference between the two in my eyes. Looking at stats neutralized for minutes and pace, Love's extra 1.2 rebounds (only .3 advantage for Orebs) per 40 just mean very little to me.

Blake has improved, you are focusing too closely on the numbers. That improvement came with no training camp, VDN as coach, and no carryover from the '10 turkey games (due to injury).

Scoring efficiency gap is there but that will close soon.

ChiSox219
03-26-2012, 03:54 PM
Well bro a refined post game (I'm assuming that this is one of the aspects you're speaking of) for Blake is adding a new dimension. Dwight is/was a young star and despite his natural progression he still isn't what one would consider as refined post player.

Love has shown that progression by showing vast improvements in every season of his NBA career.

I'm not disagreeing with you that Blake may indeed one day be the better player I'm just saying that Blake needs to improve on many aspects of his game to reach his full potential (one of the greatest PFs ever).

Blake already has a nice post game and yes it needs refining but the foundation is there, big difference compared to Dwight starting from scratch.

Hawkeye15
03-26-2012, 03:58 PM
back to rebounding... basically no difference between the two in my eyes. Looking at stats neutralized for minutes and pace, Love's extra 1.2 rebounds (only .3 advantage for Orebs) per 40 just mean very little to me.

Blake has improved, you are focusing too closely on the numbers. That improvement came with no training camp, VDN as coach, and no carryover from the '10 turkey games (due to injury).

Scoring efficiency gap is there but that will close soon.

Love grabs a higher percentage of rebounds than Blake does. The margin has always been there. I understand you don't believe in the weight of rebounding as much as I do. Oh well.

Blake has improved where? Love had a new coach, no training camp, and played last summer.

How can you guess that the scoring gap will close soon?

KB-Pau-DH2012
03-26-2012, 04:00 PM
Hopefully in 10 years he will get traded to the Celtics and bang out a 66 win season

Nah, don't think anyone here wants to see a KG sellout version 2.0 ;)

Cfrey
03-26-2012, 04:14 PM
griffen

griffen

griffen

griffen

griffen

ChiSox219
03-26-2012, 04:33 PM
Love grabs a higher percentage of rebounds than Blake does. The margin has always been there. I understand you don't believe in the weight of rebounding as much as I do. Oh well.

Blake has improved where? Love had a new coach, no training camp, and played last summer.

How can you guess that the scoring gap will close soon?

Right and the percentage gap essentially amounts to extra offensive rebound every 3rd game. What is there to believe in? The data is there and whether or not you choose to believe it, the margin is still insignificant compared to say Griffin's assists being worth 7.3 ppg vs Love's assists worth 4.1 ppg.

Blake has improved, why do you say he hasn't? His efg% has risen and you can see his repertoire, defense, and vision improving on the court.

Love's new coach was a huge upgrade, I don't consider that a bad/difficult thing for Love and already said Griffin would benefit greatly from a similar change. No training camp for Love also though I'd argue that hurt Blake more because he's younger and didn't have the learning experience in turkey which nearly everyone else is still building on.

As far as scoring efficincy, Blake's already got Love in eFG% so it's a matter of Griffin get his FT% back up and hopefully higher and also being more selective with his jumper which will be taught by the next coach.

Cfrey
03-26-2012, 04:35 PM
Griffin is garbo lets just leave it at that.

PurpleJesus
03-26-2012, 04:51 PM
lol, griffin is far from garbo

TimbaWolvez
03-26-2012, 05:03 PM
BG is a better dunker therefore he's a better player. End of discussion.

Swashcuff
03-26-2012, 05:07 PM
Lets not start bashing Blake at the expense of Love it basically shows that you have no legit argument as to why Love is better. I've defended Love more than anyone not named Hawkeye15 in this thread but lets not act as if Blake isn't a phenomenal player in his own right.

Birdmannn
03-26-2012, 05:08 PM
BG is a better dunker therefore he's a better player. End of discussion.

Only in game. Really sucks in th dunk contest.

Sota4Ever
03-26-2012, 05:54 PM
BG is a better dunker therefore he's a better player. End of discussion.

You are an idiot!

CudiOnMyiPod
03-26-2012, 06:13 PM
This man just said that Dirk could carry this Love team minus Ricky Rubio to the WCF :laugh2:

He couldn't even carry that Mavs team that far that year and they were wayyyyy better than this Wolves team especially without Rubio

Jesus Christ...

WITH Rubio. WITH.

I have an idea. Instead of being a ***** and constantly singling me out because I'm not agreeing with you, why don't you learn to ****ing read?

b@llhog24
03-26-2012, 06:24 PM
You are an idiot!
He was being sarcastic.


Jesus Christ...

WITH Rubio. WITH.

I have an idea. Instead of being a ***** and constantly singling me out because I'm not agreeing with you, why don't you learn to ****ing read?

He asked what would happen if you substituted year 4 Dirk on the very same team that Love is playing with. Rubio isn't currently playing at the moment neither is Pek whom you keep refering to as a legit center. You're only as good as your health allows you to be.

iliketurtles24
03-26-2012, 06:42 PM
in this argument consider griffin has a better supporting cast than love does. He has paul, jordan, williams, foye. right now, all 4 of them could start on the wolves.

kobebabe
03-26-2012, 06:43 PM
He should get more credit than he really does. B. Griffin get all the hype yet This dude get underlooked. He is a BEAST! Love him!!!

Hawkeye15
03-26-2012, 07:23 PM
Right and the percentage gap essentially amounts to extra offensive rebound every 3rd game. What is there to believe in? The data is there and whether or not you choose to believe it, the margin is still insignificant compared to say Griffin's assists being worth 7.3 ppg vs Love's assists worth 4.1 ppg.

Blake has improved, why do you say he hasn't? His efg% has risen and you can see his repertoire, defense, and vision improving on the court.

Love's new coach was a huge upgrade, I don't consider that a bad/difficult thing for Love and already said Griffin would benefit greatly from a similar change. No training camp for Love also though I'd argue that hurt Blake more because he's younger and didn't have the learning experience in turkey which nearly everyone else is still building on.

As far as scoring efficincy, Blake's already got Love in eFG% so it's a matter of Griffin get his FT% back up and hopefully higher and also being more selective with his jumper which will be taught by the next coach.

I will summarize for you again. UNTIL Blake does show these improvements you are expecting, the edge goes to Love entirely. UNTIL Blake does expand his game and become a smarter player and shoot 20+% better from the line, its a topic that dwells on reality versus speculation, no?

Hawkeye15
03-26-2012, 07:25 PM
And please don't think Love's overall game won't get better. He has taken the step of becoming a pretty damn clutch player now. Used to not be able to create his own. Does now. Used to not be able to take over games at times. Does now. The guy gets noticeably better every year.

Swashcuff
03-26-2012, 07:33 PM
And please don't think Love's overall game won't get better. He has taken the step of becoming a pretty damn clutch player now. Used to not be able to create his own. Does now. Used to not be able to take over games at times. Does now. The guy gets noticeably better every year.

All Kevin Love has done every season since I've started watching play (dating back to when he was a freshman in college) him is improve, improve and continue to improve. When I thought he really wasn't going to improve much more than last season he comes in this season with a more impressive offensive repertoire, more hunger and hustle on D and just a chip on his shoulder that he deserves to be a top player in the league which has shown with his play late in games.

Many thought he wouldn't become a legit #1 (including yourself IIRC) but I think with the considerable improvements he's shown this season in that regard its certainly not out of the realm of possibility to see such in the very near future if he hasn't become one already.

I think also given his work ethic its not farfetched to think that he can also become a + defensive player at his position. Never elite but certainly not the liability he was earlier in his career.

Swashcuff
03-26-2012, 07:34 PM
Jesus Christ...

WITH Rubio. WITH.

I have an idea. Instead of being a ***** and constantly singling me out because I'm not agreeing with you, why don't you learn to ****ing read?

What are you talking about no one is singling you out. I asked you with this current Wolves team. Is Rubio currently playing for the Wolves no he's injured just as is Pek. Don't you understand simple context?

Hawkeye15
03-26-2012, 07:37 PM
All Kevin Love has done every season since I've started watching play (dating back to when he was a freshman in college) him is improve, improve and continue to improve. When I thought he really wasn't going to improve much more than last season he comes in this season with a more impressive offensive repertoire, more hunger and hustle on D and just a chip on his shoulder that he deserves to be a top player in the league which has shown with his play late in games.

Many thought he wouldn't become a legit #1 (including yourself IIRC) but I think with the considerable improvements he's shown this season in that regard its certainly not out of the realm of possibility to see such in the very near future if he hasn't become one already.

I think also given his work ethic its not farfetched to think that he can also become a + defensive player at his position. Never elite but certainly not the liability he was earlier in his career.

I was skeptical of him becoming a #1 on a great team. He lost 25 lbs. He worked on his ball handling. He worked on his face up game. I did not think he was a late game player (he was won a game at the buzzer 3, with FT's, sent 2 games into OT with last second shots, taken over the 4th quarter for wins 3 times).

I truly believe he is a #1 on a great team going forward.

CudiOnMyiPod
03-26-2012, 08:03 PM
He was being sarcastic.



He asked what would happen if you substituted year 4 Dirk on the very same team that Love is playing with. Rubio isn't currently playing at the moment neither is Pek whom you keep refering to as a legit center. You're only as good as your health allows you to be.

It's not like Pekovic and Rubio have been out al year and Love has carried them to this miraculous record. Rubio has been out for a few weeks and Pekovic has been out a game or two.

Like I said, put Dirk in place of Love, add in a healthy Pekovic and Rubio and the team wins more games. I really think that it is hard for anyone to argue that.

Hawkeye15
03-26-2012, 08:31 PM
It's not like Pekovic and Rubio have been out al year and Love has carried them to this miraculous record. Rubio has been out for a few weeks and Pekovic has been out a game or two.

Like I said, put Dirk in place of Love, add in a healthy Pekovic and Rubio and the team wins more games. I really think that it is hard for anyone to argue that.

With the shape Dirk came in this year, sure its easy to argue you. Pekovic didn't even get burn until a month into the season, and we have been starting Wes freakin Johnson at SF (worse than any starter Dirk has ever played with, I will guarantee you that), and Luke at the SG.

Look, you lost me entirely when you made the ridiculous claim that Dirk didn't have championship help until last year. I am only responding to see if that complete nonsense you posted woke you up or not.

Sota4Ever
03-26-2012, 08:31 PM
Actually pretty easy to argue that. Pekovic in the beginning of the season wasn't contributing like he is now. Also it is a whole new offense and in a condensed season. Which makes what Love is doing now even more impressive. Also anyone that says Derrick Williams, Wes Johnson, and Luke Rudnour are great options should try watching some timberwolves games before they judge. With a full healthy team we have a worse record with dirk then Love. Does anyone remember Dirk showing up out of shape and sucking... The timberwolves would have gotten off too a terrible start. And my last point is in the beginning of the season we had one of the toughest schedules where we barely lost to the thunder and heat. I wish that Rubio never got hurt and all you could be eating your words but that will have to wait tell next season. LOVE FOR MVP!!

TimbaWolvez
03-26-2012, 08:40 PM
It's not like Pekovic and Rubio have been out al year and Love has carried them to this miraculous record. Rubio has been out for a few weeks and Pekovic has been out a game or two.

Like I said, put Dirk in place of Love, add in a healthy Pekovic and Rubio and the team wins more games. I really think that it is hard for anyone to argue that.

Of course it's arguable. If Rubio and Pek were healthy, the Wolves would be in the playoffs right now.

Oefarmy2005
03-26-2012, 08:41 PM
I don't see how people can even argue any PF in the NBA right now over Love. I have been down on Love ever since we have traded for him in '08, and I have been calling him overrated and a stat stuffer, but at this point, everyone has to admit that he is a stud. His supporting cast for the first 2/3 of this season was very good, plenty of people that can score the rock and he is still stuffing the stat sheet 99% of the games. The best thing is he has shown the leadership quality I never thought he would, he can actually close out games for you ladies and gentlemen. At this point, arguing that there is a better PF all around O and D, is absurd.

Oefarmy2005
03-26-2012, 08:44 PM
And I will still add that KG and Duncan were better in their primes, but they played amazing D, especially Garnett. I fully expect KG to surpass Malone and Barkley, but KG and Duncan are on another level.

b@llhog24
03-26-2012, 08:56 PM
And I will still add that KG and Duncan were better in their primes, but they played amazing D, especially Garnett. I fully expect KG to surpass Malone and Barkley, but KG and Duncan are on another level.

Maybe not Barkley but he'll pass that loser Dirk for sure ;)

Hawkeye15
03-26-2012, 09:03 PM
And I will still add that KG and Duncan were better in their primes, but they played amazing D, especially Garnett. I fully expect KG to surpass Malone and Barkley, but KG and Duncan are on another level.

Seeing as we haven't even seen Love's prime, all we can do is gauge him against their 4th season. And he stacks up just fine.

5ass
03-26-2012, 09:49 PM
Seeing as we haven't even seen Love's prime, all we can do is gauge him against their 4th season. And he stacks up just fine.

I dont know if he'll ever pass Malone let alone KG and Duncan. Top 5-10 PF all time is very possible for though. I expect Love to average 30-13 in his prime, his numbers will depend not only on his improvements, but also Rubio's. If Rubio can be Love's Stockton, I think Love should be able to lead the league in scoring at 30-32 PPG.

CoffeeJanitor
03-26-2012, 10:03 PM
All Kevin Love has done every season since I've started watching play (dating back to when he was a freshman in college) him is improve, improve and continue to improve. When I thought he really wasn't going to improve much more than last season he comes in this season with a more impressive offensive repertoire, more hunger and hustle on D and just a chip on his shoulder that he deserves to be a top player in the league which has shown with his play late in games.

Many thought he wouldn't become a legit #1 (including yourself IIRC) but I think with the considerable improvements he's shown this season in that regard its certainly not out of the realm of possibility to see such in the very near future if he hasn't become one already.

I think also given his work ethic its not farfetched to think that he can also become a + defensive player at his position. Never elite but certainly not the liability he was earlier in his career.Completely agree. I am done doubting Love. Sky is the limit, except on defense, where his height and athleticism will keep him from being elite.

Hawkeye15
03-26-2012, 10:12 PM
I dont know if he'll ever pass Malone let alone KG and Duncan. Top 5-10 PF all time is very possible for though. I expect Love to average 30-13 in his prime, his numbers will depend not only on his improvements, but also Rubio's. If Rubio can be Love's Stockton, I think Love should be able to lead the league in scoring at 30-32 PPG.

I can't predict where he ends up all time. We are in chapter 4 of 15ish. I simply posted all those greats 4th year stats, and Love fits in quite nicely.

AddiX
03-26-2012, 10:22 PM
Kevin love is playing through the roof, but until I see some defense 1 on 1 and see him closing out on d, or see a team respect him so much he commands a double team, I'm not even thinking of putting him anywhere near an all time list.

I'm not hating one bit, but you guys have taken stats way to far, there is a lot more going on the court than just stats.

Birdmannn
03-26-2012, 10:23 PM
I can't predict where he ends up all time. We are in chapter 4 of 15ish. I simply posted all those greats 4th year stats, and Love fits in quite nicely.

Your being too nice, if he keeps improving at even a slow rate he will end up with better career stats then all of them.

Rubio and Love could become an amazing duo and with a proper built team they have a good chance to win a lot.

Hawkeye15
03-26-2012, 10:35 PM
Kevin love is playing through the roof, but until I see some defense 1 on 1 and see him closing out on d, or see a team respect him so much he commands a double team, I'm not even thinking of putting him anywhere near an all time list.

I'm not hating one bit, but you guys have taken stats way to far, there is a lot more going on the court than just stats.

So now that your, "He isn't a #1 option or a closer" argument is torched, you move on to something else.

We shouldn't be putting him on an all time list for the most obvious reason ever. He is 23, and in his 4th year. We can only lay out the 4th years of the all time greats and ooh and aah it. Love fits in just fine.

Your scouting report is off. You don't "see" it because you obviously haven't been watching them.

AddiX
03-26-2012, 10:42 PM
So now that your, "He isn't a #1 option or a closer" argument is torched, you move on to something else.

We shouldn't be putting him on an all time list for the most obvious reason ever. He is 23, and in his 4th year. We can only lay out the 4th years of the all time greats and ooh and aah it. Love fits in just fine.

Your scouting report is off. You don't "see" it because you obviously haven't been watching them.

Actually no, from my view minny has still lost a ton of close games this year, and I still don't consider him a real # 1 option.

You assumed I changed my stance on those comments, nope, not one bit.

And are arguing that he's good on defense, closes out on defense, or actually gets double teamed often?

I don't know why people take me as saying any of those things means I think he's a bad player, but this all time great talk, and statistical nut hugging is out of control. People are really comparing him to players like KG and Malone becuase he has a good avg and rebounds a lot?

KG would average 20 boards a game if he slacked on his 1 on one 1, and wasn't one of the best team defenders in the NBA.

Hawkeye15
03-26-2012, 10:46 PM
Actually no, from my view minny has still lost a ton of close games this year, and I still don't consider him a real # 1 option.

You assumed I changed my stance on those comments, nope, not one bit.

And are arguing that he's good on defense, closes out on defense, or actually gets double teamed often?

I don't know why people take me as saying any of those things means I think he's a bad player, but this all time great talk, and statistical nut hugging is out of control. People are really comparing him to players like KG and Malone becuase he has a good avg and rebounds a lot?

KG would average 20 boards a game if he slacked on his 1 on one 1, and wasn't one of the best team defenders in the NBA.


Yes, I do consider him a #1 option going forward.

I am not arguing he is good on defense, but he isn't as bad as most say. Not even close.

I have never seen you bring this crap up until he was being a #1 option on a much improved team. You move on from his offensive limitations (they are dwindling, no?), and attack the next weakness that comes into your mind.

Keep doubting him. Most do. He keeps getting better. Whatever.

Hawkeye15
03-26-2012, 10:57 PM
Love's synergy ratings on defense (all are ranked on Points Per Possesion):

Overall- 0.77 PPP (#70 in the NBA)
Isolation- 0.75 (#102 in the NBA)
Post up- 0.69 (#31 in the NBA)
PnR Man- 0.79 (#26 in the NBA)
Spot up- 0.81 (#60 in the NBA)

He holds his counter opponent to 38.8%, with his strongest percentage coming on post-ups.

Love will never be an all-world defender, but to act like he is terrible at it is a fail.

CudiOnMyiPod
03-26-2012, 11:00 PM
Love's synergy ratings on defense (all are ranked on Points Per Possesion):

Overall- 0.77 PPP (#70 in the NBA)
Isolation- 0.75 (#102 in the NBA)
Post up- 0.69 (#31 in the NBA)
PnR Man- 0.79 (#26 in the NBA)
Spot up- 0.81 (#60 in the NBA)

He holds his counter opponent to 38.8%, with his strongest percentage coming on post-ups.

Love will never be an all-world defender, but to act like he is terrible at it is a fail.

Same with Dirk. Not an all world defender but he is pretty average at it.

AddiX
03-26-2012, 11:03 PM
I think you might be confusing me for someone who thinks so highly of superstars/stars or stats. None of that stuff impresses me, and IMO most high profile players are highly overrated, outside some of the truly top players.

IMO love falls right in line of incredibly overrated because of his stats, the same way griffin is overrated because of his highlight dunks.

Hawkeye15
03-26-2012, 11:04 PM
Same with Dirk. Not an all world defender but he is pretty average at it.

The comparison is valid for a reason. They both got the reps early in their career as horrid defenders. When you get a reputation for something in sports, it takes time for the average fan to buy into the statement being false. I fought for Dirk as an above average defender 6 years ago, and would get pushback. Love is now entering the same boat. He is not a bad defender anymore, but he sucked donkey dick the first 2.5 years he played. Therefore he is going to have to spend years shedding the label if he can continue to grow on that end.

Hawkeye15
03-26-2012, 11:05 PM
I think you might be confusing me for someone who thinks so highly of superstars/stars or stats. None of that stuff impresses me, and IMO most high profile players are highly overrated, outside some of the truly top players.

IMO love falls right in line of incredibly overrated because of his stats, the same way griffin is overrated because of his highlight dunks.

I will win you over one day. Until then, keep hitting that heavy bag my man :)

Sota4Ever
03-26-2012, 11:16 PM
Love is now overrated??? wow....

AddiX
03-27-2012, 01:09 AM
I will win you over one day. Until then, keep hitting that heavy bag my man :)

Hah, when I see what I want to see I'll gladly change my opinion on him, maybe not gladly but I will.

There was a time when I considered rose the most overrated player, and he was at the time, but he's crossed over into a true superstar. He may the quickest player I've ever seen look like a complete SG one yr and turn into a solid pg overnight and lose nothing on offense.

Its like how a lot of people raved about amsre, even last year, was averaging 8-9 rebounds, and was for awhile a top rebounder. But he got the blocks because he never boxed out and let up easy offensive boards, and teams attacked him non stop, and he got the rebounds because he played center so often, and a rarely played defense, especially help defense, so he was focusing on grabbing boards.

I'm just saying, a lot of stats and skills can be looked at as overrated when lacking in other departments.

Love isn't the worst defender I've ever seen, but I consider him below average, help defense I think he is god awful, and closing out on the perimeter I rarely even see him try.

Raph12
03-27-2012, 01:50 AM
He has played really well without Rubio, but his usage rate and minutes have both gone up with Rubio out... Still, hard to complain when you can perform at that high a level.

2-0-Niner
03-27-2012, 01:58 AM
If you had a Team of Sessions, Kobe, SF Filler or Meta World Peace, Love and Bynum, They'd probably be the team I would consider close to taking the Bulls 72-10 Record. Maybe lol

b@llhog24
03-27-2012, 02:06 AM
He has played really well without Rubio, but his usage rate and minutes have both gone up with Rubio out... Still, hard to complain when you can perform at that high a level.

Your sig :drool:

Cfrey
03-28-2012, 03:19 AM
If you had a Team of Sessions, Kobe, SF Filler or Meta World Peace, Love and Bynum, They'd probably be the team I would consider close to taking the Bulls 72-10 Record. Maybe lol

gay love sessions

BradfordIsElite
03-28-2012, 11:49 AM
I know right..

Love
Beasely (PF is secondary position)
Williams
Randolph

Yet we don't make any trades with them..

They need to trade Randolph and Beasley and upgrade the SG position.

Rubio, (insert), Williams, Love, Pekovic

Keep Ridnour, Ellington and Millicic off the bench and they'll have a great future in store.

Blitzbolt
03-28-2012, 01:09 PM
Saw them play last night is gonna take the wolves 2 to 3 years to be good because right Love is playing with WNBA team.

Sota4Ever
03-28-2012, 01:23 PM
I think that is what everyone has been telling you... We are without Pek and Rubio. Two huge pieces and even Barea is sometimes a big piece. Klove is playing with trash right now.

Cfrey
03-28-2012, 02:27 PM
we better get a ****ing free agent ASAP

dat ***** klove can't do it all!!! this is ****ing KG all over again

Hawkeye15
03-28-2012, 09:21 PM
Saw them play last night is gonna take the wolves 2 to 3 years to be good because right Love is playing with WNBA team.

Yeah, their 2nd and 3rd best players have been out, one of them gone for the season 10 games ago. After Rubio, Love, and Pekovic, they have zero NBA talent outside the possible prospect of Williams, and Ridnour being a nice looking backup. I don't think it takes 2 years, I think if Rubio/Love/Pek stay healthy next season, they win 45+ games.

Hawkeye15
03-28-2012, 09:22 PM
40-19 tonight. Dude sucks, and is a stat padder.

VCaintdead17
03-28-2012, 09:25 PM
30 and 14 in March....



only .6 bpg though so he sucks

Hawkeye15
03-28-2012, 09:26 PM
30 and 14 in March....



only .6 bpg though so he sucks

forgot about that. Dude totally sucks.

More-Than-Most
03-28-2012, 09:30 PM
30 and 14 in March....



only .6 bpg though so he sucks



Psh he couldn't even average 30 and 15 :pity:

They should just trade him away Lol