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henderson56
03-25-2012, 05:02 PM
The Battle For Left Field (TM) is won......by @EThames14 - Travis Snider optioned to minor-league camp. #bluejays #jays

Mike Wilner twitter

Kinda figured this could be its own thread, if not move it too the spring traing one.

North Yorker
03-25-2012, 05:04 PM
oh ffs

:sigh:

JaysFan87
03-25-2012, 05:05 PM
...

Farsight
03-25-2012, 05:06 PM
Honestly, i dont know what else he could have done. If im Snider i demand a trade, because he is defiantly not going to get a fair opportunity to play with the jays (even though he is a better option than Thames). If the Jays do trade him, he is really going to make them bite their tongues as i believe he is going to be a lot more successful than Thames

the_jon
03-25-2012, 05:07 PM
:bang:

henderson56
03-25-2012, 05:09 PM
Honestly, i dont know what else he could have done. If im Snider i demand a trade, because he is defiantly not going to get a fair opportunity to play with the jays (even though he is a better option than Thames)

The only thing I can hope for is that both of them do good(Sinder can rip it in AAA and Thames can be above average) and then AA can flip Thames for something then give Snider the full time LF after the trade deadline. But this might be way to optimistic.

Farsight
03-25-2012, 05:12 PM
The only thing I can hope for is that both of them do good(Sinder can rip it in AAA and Thames can be above average) and then AA can flip Thames for something then give Snider the full time LF after the trade deadline. But this might be way to optimistic. I can agree with that, maybe Thames is being show cased... There is no point in Snider being in the minors as first, it hurts his trade value if they are trying to trade him, and secondly, he destroyed the minors. They have really screwed around with this kid, and continue to do so, which is really sad... because he has potential to be an all star player, which i dont see Thames ever reaching. Its just sad.

In all honestly, i would love to hear there reasoning of why Thames made it and Snider did not

wagnall
03-25-2012, 05:14 PM
Just need to know, being as they are sending him down, if they bring him back during the season is that his last option where we have to keep him or put him on waivers if they try to send him back anytime in the future? :confused:

henderson56
03-25-2012, 05:14 PM
Jon Morosi just posted this on Twitter

If Travis Snider was a college draft and had a spring like this at 24, we’d be calling him the next stud outfielder. Perspective.


I'm a Snider fan, and in really hope AA has some plan to move Thames. But I guess I would prefer solid results from LF first.

wagnall
03-25-2012, 05:20 PM
Honestly, i dont know what else he could have done. If im Snider i demand a trade, because he is defiantly not going to get a fair opportunity to play with the jays (even though he is a better option than Thames). If the Jays do trade him, he is really going to make them bite their tongues as i believe he is going to be a lot more successful than Thames


This must be devastating to him, he was asked to put up some numbers and he did. Seems to me this was a for gone conclusion before camp even started. Wonder if he had put up Lawrie type numbers this spring , if they still would have sent him down.

I would bet my left nut that he wants to get out of here, but is not going to say it. But hard for him to turn the other cheek on this one. :(

henderson56
03-25-2012, 05:22 PM
Told that Snider took his demotion like a "total pro". Expected nothing less. He'll be back. #bluejays #jays @Lunchboxhero45

Wilner twitter

DeRozan10
03-25-2012, 05:27 PM
Honestly, i dont know what else he could have done. If im Snider i demand a trade, because he is defiantly not going to get a fair opportunity to play with the jays (even though he is a better option than Thames). If the Jays do trade him, he is really going to make them bite their tongues as i believe he is going to be a lot more successful than Thames


Not strike out 17 times in 48 at bats woulda helped.

I really hope Snider can figure it out becuase I really like the kid, but im glad Thames is the starter. I think he is gonna have a great year and make a lot fo you guys bite your tounges!!

2009mvp
03-25-2012, 05:28 PM
No one expected any different did they? Kid never had a shot at the job, regardless of what the club told the press. He'll be back.

wagnall
03-25-2012, 05:32 PM
Told that Snider took his demotion like a "total pro". Expected nothing less. He'll be back. #bluejays #jays @Lunchboxhero45

Wilner twitter


Snider has been very mature when it comes to discussing his future with the Jays, and I would expect that he would put on a brave face, but inside I think he is steaming. He's going to kill AAA yet again, just don't know what he has to do there to warrant another call up, esp. if Thames is stroking a big bat.
But if he's not moved then I would expect if Rasmus or Thames are butchering it, he will be back.
But this was not unexpected as AA was clear on Sniders perf. needs to un seat Thames.

Kenny Powders
03-25-2012, 05:33 PM
The only ray of hope that I have is that this is to showcase Thames, because there is no way going forward Thames is a better option long term.

Farsight
03-25-2012, 05:36 PM
Not strike out 17 times in 48 at bats woulda helped.

I really hope Snider can figure it out becuase I really like the kid, but im glad Thames is the starter. I think he is gonna have a great year and make a lot fo you guys bite your tounges!! If Thames could ever figure out how to play adequate defense, this would be a much harder decision, but he hasnt as of yet. Snider should have got the position, but it does not surprise me that the jays sent him down

wagnall
03-25-2012, 05:37 PM
One way or another, this LF situation has to be settled this season. We can't go into 2013 with this circus still going on.

Farsight
03-25-2012, 05:39 PM
One way or another, this LF situation has to be settled this season. We can't go into 2013 with this circus still going on. Easiest solution is to get rid of Adam Lind. Either put Snider in RF, and Bautista at first. Or Snider in left, Encarnacion at first, Thames as the DH.

If a team wants to learn how not to manage a player/wants to end a players career, they can just look at the jays brass and their miss management of Snider

henderson56
03-25-2012, 05:42 PM
If Thames could ever figure out how to play adequate defense, this would be a much harder decision, but he hasnt as of yet. Snider should have got the position, but it does not surprise me that the jays sent him down

Well in Thames defense, we haven't really gotten to see him play D this Spring training (at least most of us haven't watched to much ST) and he's suppose to be quite improved, so IMO he's defense could be a lot better then most are making it out to be.

Gibby
03-25-2012, 05:43 PM
this is just stupid.

Farsight
03-25-2012, 05:47 PM
Well in Thames defense, we haven't really gotten to see him play D this Spring training (at least most of us haven't watched to much ST) and he's suppose to be quite improved, so IMO he's defense could be a lot better then most are making it out to be. There were a few games were the ball dropped infront of because he either miss read the ball, or was not quick enough to get to it. Many other posters can attest to this as they watched some spring training games as well. All you have to do is go through the spring training forums and see all the people complain about his defense

2009mvp
03-25-2012, 05:48 PM
Lots of overreaction. I mean this was dumb, but inevitable. Kid is still super talented and still just 24. This isn't a death sentence or something, as long as he's not stuck in Vegas for more than a month or so.

henderson56
03-25-2012, 05:53 PM
There were a few games were the ball dropped infront of because he either miss read the ball, or was not quick enough to get to it. Many other posters can attest to this as they watched some spring training games as well. All you have to do is go through the spring training forums and see all the people complain about his defense

By no means I am saying he is good defensively, and all I have to go off of is what I have read, I'm just saying he's defense has gotten better since last year, and from my perspective I want to see how he looks once the regular season comes and he's playing a full game.

Dol-Fan
03-25-2012, 05:53 PM
Lots of overreaction. I mean this was dumb, but inevitable. Kid is still super talented and still just 24. This isn't a death sentence or something, as long as he's not stuck in Vegas for more than a month or so.

Agreed. Totally expected and I just hope they don't act out of haste and trade him off. Be patient and he'll be ready when a spot opens up. Lind, EE, Thames won't all be here forever.

JermanJaysFan
03-25-2012, 05:59 PM
Damn.

bomber0104
03-25-2012, 06:15 PM
stupid but expected... this franchise just doesn't believe in the guy

darius
03-25-2012, 06:22 PM
The only thing I can hope for is that both of them do good(Sinder can rip it in AAA and Thames can be above average) and then AA can flip Thames for something then give Snider the full time LF after the trade deadline. But this might be way to optimistic.

In my mind this is exactly what the Jays want to do. Play Thames, get his value up assuming he hits well, and then package him in a trade.

Maybe I'm crazy but this bodes well for Snider in the long run, in terms of the Jays. And I would say GM_AA has no plans to trade Snider because Snider's value doesn't increase much in AAA.

koreancabbage
03-25-2012, 06:24 PM
There were a few games were the ball dropped infront of because he either miss read the ball, or was not quick enough to get to it. Many other posters can attest to this as they watched some spring training games as well. All you have to do is go through the spring training forums and see all the people complain about his defense

oh come on, lets look at the bad stuff too, struck out 17 times in 17 games. Still shows that he can't consistently hit major league pitcher on a consistent basis.

Both have flaws for sure. one's defense and one's consistency at the plate.
I think the strikeouts are big indicator of his demotion

Kak
03-25-2012, 06:25 PM
His swings sucks! Doesn't look natural. Needs to get it fixed if possible. And Cooper being sent down. I guess no takers for him.

Farsight
03-25-2012, 06:34 PM
oh come on, lets look at the bad stuff too, struck out 17 times in 17 games. Still shows that he can't consistently hit major league pitcher on a consistent basis.

Both have flaws for sure. one's defense and one's consistency at the plate.
I think the strikeouts are big indicator of his demotion The strikeouts are fine if you produce power, which most believe Snider can. Snider has struck out his fair amount this spring, but the sample is small. When you are pressing and trying to hit the ball hard, as he was (trying to make an impression), you are going to strike out more. I am probably over reacting, but when one player is far superior defensively than another player, and produces the same offensively, than in my mind its easy to see who should get the spot. There are probably reasons why he is down, such as to increase the trade value of Thames, etc. But i just think the jays organization has done and still continues to really do a bad job with the management of Snider

LuckyLuke2
03-25-2012, 06:34 PM
Why are people so upset and surprised by this...? Okay he may have done fairly well this spring, but Thames has done just as good.

Snider was striking out a lot once again, and Thames seemed to be more consistent from the get go. I was in Florida watching these games, and although Snider's mechanics were better he still was swinging at bad pitches.

It was a fair chance for him to beat Thames out, and Thames once again outperformed Snider. I don't get why everyone is so angry saying he should be traded now... and this is disgraceful, and OMG so stupid, it really isn't. There is nothing wrong with competition and I bet that Snider is taking it all in stride.

Thames beat him out, deal with it... it's not a huge problem here.

LuckyLuke2
03-25-2012, 06:35 PM
And who ever said Snider is far better defensively is way out of line. Thames is solid defensively, and has good speed in the OF. I don't get why Thames is hated on I really don't, he performed very well this spring. He earned it.

nithanyo
03-25-2012, 06:44 PM
Saw it coming.

thames was the starting LF at the end of 2011 + he put up really impressive numbers this spring. not to put too much into ST numbers but from what people are saying Snider was striking out a lot. Not a good thing considering that half the batters in ST are minor leaguers.

Farsight
03-25-2012, 06:45 PM
And who ever said Snider is far better defensively is way out of line. Thames is solid defensively, and has good speed in the OF. I don't get why Thames is hated on I really don't, he performed very well this spring. He earned it. No one is denying that Thames performed well this spring, but it is the small sample size to say the least (If he went 0/5, his batting average would be under 300 again) But to say that he is solid defensively right now is not true, especially if you are going off his minor league career and his appearance last year. For such a freak of an athlete it really does surprise me that he is below average defensively. The only thing that can explain this is that he takes bad paths to the ball, and has a hard time reading the ball when its hit.

LuckyLuke2
03-25-2012, 06:46 PM
No one is denying that Thames performed well this spring, but to say that he is solid defensively right now is not true, especially if you are going off his minor league career and his appearance last year. For such a freak of an athlete it really does surprise me that he is below average defensively. The only thing that can explain this is that he takes bad paths to the ball, and has a hard time reading the ball when its hit.


I guess that makes sense, but I still like Thames defensive approach this spring.

adid727
03-25-2012, 06:50 PM
Why are people so upset and surprised by this...? Okay he may have done fairly well this spring, but Thames has done just as good.

Snider was striking out a lot once again, and Thames seemed to be more consistent from the get go. I was in Florida watching these games, and although Snider's mechanics were better he still was swinging at bad pitches.

It was a fair chance for him to beat Thames out, and Thames once again outperformed Snider. I don't get why everyone is so angry saying he should be traded now... and this is disgraceful, and OMG so stupid, it really isn't. There is nothing wrong with competition and I bet that Snider is taking it all in stride.

Thames beat him out, deal with it... it's not a huge problem here.

I Totally agree. Thames had the better spring if you look at the SO:walk ratio. Thames earned the spot. Either way LF is our weakest position.

rapsjaysfan88
03-25-2012, 06:53 PM
snider just can't hit off speed pitches, maybe a year of refining his new approach and trying harder 2 take walks and less strikeouts will help him.

StealingSigns
03-25-2012, 06:55 PM
.......................G AB R H TB 2B 3B HR BB SO OBP SLG OPS
Travis Snider....16 46 11 13 30 5 0 4 5 16 .353 .652 1.005
Eric Thames......16 45 6 15 23 5 0 1 7 10 .380 .511 .891

Cooshman
03-25-2012, 06:58 PM
Easiest solution is to get rid of Adam Lind. Either put Snider in RF, and Bautista at first. Or Snider in left, Encarnacion at first, Thames as the DH.

If a team wants to learn how not to manage a player/wants to end a players career, they can just look at the jays brass and their miss management of Snider

What has Snider done in 800AB's that makes you think he will produce anything close to Lind's numbers??
I hope that Snider can get it together (Great Spring but Whoopee-do-da) but he is a huge downgrade from Lind right now....

Your hard on for Snider is unwarranted and he has had nearly 2 full seasons of AB's (combined) and showed very little - Hello Chris Davis part two.

Hope I am wrong and Snider finally comes around, but something tells me this kid is not much more then a AAAA type player.

I would bet that AA has tried to trade Snider 10x over and no one is biting - there is a reason why!!

WhatSayYou
03-25-2012, 07:02 PM
Remember when Lind, Hill, and Snider were all supposed to be stars?

Edit: Not saying I'm giving up on Snider just yet!

bartron_44
03-25-2012, 07:10 PM
Not sure why everyone is freaking out. The job was Thames' to lose, and he didn't. His swing is MUCH better tgen snider's, and he has raked at every level on his way through the minors too. I think he is still better suited as a dh, but he is a better of'er then Lind was.

Sniders ops is higher because he hit 3 mote hr's, but Thames has plenty of power, and much better swing. ..Snider hit well in AAA last year, but nothing soecial for the PCL..I want to see him hit for power like he did his first time in AAA with his new swing before I say he is ready..

mtf
03-25-2012, 07:13 PM
No one expected any different did they? Kid never had a shot at the job, regardless of what the club told the press. He'll be back.

Agreed. All accounts from those around the team in Florida reported that the job was Thames barring something drastic, such as an injury or complete collapse.

It is unfortunate though, as Snider would be a much better defensive player in left field and if they really felt the need to have Thames in the lineup, put him ahead of the easily replaced current DH; Encarnacion.

Farsight
03-25-2012, 07:24 PM
What has Snider done in 800AB's that makes you think he will produce anything close to Lind's numbers??
I hope that Snider can get it together (Great Spring but Whoopee-do-da) but he is a huge downgrade from Lind right now....

Your hard on for Snider is unwarranted and he has had nearly 2 full seasons of AB's (combined) and showed very little - Hello Chris Davis part two.

Hope I am wrong and Snider finally comes around, but something tells me this kid is not much more then a AAAA type player.

I would bet that AA has tried to trade Snider 10x over and no one is biting - there is a reason why!! I would easily take Snider once you factor in age, progression, upside, contract. Snider can field multiple positions well and if given the opportunity, and im sure he would be good at 1b as well. Also the 2 seasons of AB you are talking about is 870 (which is about 1 1/4 seasons), which was spread out over 4 years... that is definitely a great indication of skill, especially when you are being jerked around, not knowing a bad week can get you sent down...

What does Lind provide? Other than producing power? In almost every other aspect of his game, such as creating runs (getting on base), preventing runs (fielding), base running, etc, he has done below average in the past 2 years. Did you also forget that Lind has been one of the worst first basemen in the past 2 years, so im not sure how you can consider Snider a AAAA player, but Lind not one as well. The only good season he had was 2009, and there is no indication that he will revert back to that form

Once you take everything into consideration, i would honestly rather have Snider with his upside than Lind and his 5 million dollar a year contract (which is actually of decent value for what he is but could be spent elsewhere)Whats ironic is that the Snider situation was the same situation Lind was in 3 years ago, as many people thought he would never break out, but once given a full year, he posted his 2009 record season

And im not suggesting that Snider plays 1b. Im suggesting that Bautista should get acquainted to 1b, because that will be his position in a few years anyways. If Lind does struggle early on, i would not be surprised to see Encarnacion at 1b, Bautista RF, Snider LF, Thames DH. By using this lineup, we dont really lose runs create, but actually benefit by having better defense, thus allow less runs scored

LuckyLuke2
03-25-2012, 07:43 PM
What has Snider done in 800AB's that makes you think he will produce anything close to Lind's numbers??
I hope that Snider can get it together (Great Spring but Whoopee-do-da) but he is a huge downgrade from Lind right now....

Your hard on for Snider is unwarranted and he has had nearly 2 full seasons of AB's (combined) and showed very little - Hello Chris Davis part two.

Hope I am wrong and Snider finally comes around, but something tells me this kid is not much more then a AAAA type player.

I would bet that AA has tried to trade Snider 10x over and no one is biting - there is a reason why!!



Oh definitely, no doubt about it. You can bet AA has been trying to trade him for a while but no GM is biting... I don't blame them. Snider's game has been inconsistent every since he began playing at the MLB level.

Very little has changed, and although I do feel for him, Thames has beaten him out fair and square. I don't buy this whole "the organization hates him and isn't giving him a chance". That's bull come on. He's had every chance.

Farrell is one of the best manager's in the league IMO and if Snider can't crack making the team with him as our manager, then I stand by it.

Cooshman
03-25-2012, 07:43 PM
I would easily take Snider once you factor in age, progression, upside, contract. Snider can field multiple positions well and if given the opportunity, and im sure he would be good at 1b as well. Also the 2 seasons of AB you are talking about is 870 (which is about 1 1/4 seasons), which was spread out over 4 years... that is definitely a great indication of skill, especially when you are being jerked around, not knowing a bad week can get you sent down...

Did you also forget that Lind has been one of the worst first basemen in the past 2 years, so im not sure how you can consider Snider a AAAA player, but Lind not one as well. The only good season he had was 2009, and there is no indication that he will revert back to that form

Once you take everything into consideration, i would honestly rather have Snider with his upside than Lind and his 5 million dollar a year contract (which is actually of decent value for what he is but could be spent elsewhere)Whats ironic is that the Snider situation was the same situation Lind was in 3 years ago, as many people thought he would never break out, but once given a full year, he posted his 2009 record season

And im not suggesting that Snider plays 1b. Im suggesting that Bautista should get acquainted to 1b, because that will be his position in a few years anyways. If Lind does struggle early on, i would not be surprised to see Encarnacion at 1b, Bautista RF, Snider LF, Thames DH


I am seeing 799Major League AB's for Snider, not sure where you are looking. 799AB's is more then an 1.25yrs of MLB AB's - even if you use 600AB's per season (which is way above average full time player AB's).

Bottom Line is Snider has been a terrible major league hitter, much worst then Lind. His swing needs some big time work and he is already 24yrs old. Sticking him in the lineup and removing Lind (no matter how you play around with the positions) is a downgrade for the Jays and makes no sense unless they feel they don't want to attempt to compete for a playoff spot this year. Lot's of AAAA a players out there and I fear the Snider is quickly falling into that category. I think the Jays brass privately thinks the same.
I hope that Snider can fulfill that top notch prospect tag but I am losing faith very quickly....hopefully he comes up here and mashes when he does!

LuckyLuke2
03-25-2012, 07:46 PM
I would easily take Snider once you factor in age, progression, upside, contract. Snider can field multiple positions well and if given the opportunity, and im sure he would be good at 1b as well. Also the 2 seasons of AB you are talking about is 870 (which is about 1 1/4 seasons), which was spread out over 4 years... that is definitely a great indication of skill, especially when you are being jerked around, not knowing a bad week can get you sent down...

What does Lind provide? Other than producing power? In almost every other aspect of his game, such as creating runs (getting on base), preventing runs (fielding), base running, etc, he has done below average in the past 2 years. Did you also forget that Lind has been one of the worst first basemen in the past 2 years, so im not sure how you can consider Snider a AAAA player, but Lind not one as well. The only good season he had was 2009, and there is no indication that he will revert back to that form

Once you take everything into consideration, i would honestly rather have Snider with his upside than Lind and his 5 million dollar a year contract (which is actually of decent value for what he is but could be spent elsewhere)Whats ironic is that the Snider situation was the same situation Lind was in 3 years ago, as many people thought he would never break out, but once given a full year, he posted his 2009 record season

And im not suggesting that Snider plays 1b. Im suggesting that Bautista should get acquainted to 1b, because that will be his position in a few years anyways. If Lind does struggle early on, i would not be surprised to see Encarnacion at 1b, Bautista RF, Snider LF, Thames DH. By using this lineup, we dont really lose runs create, but actually benefit by having better defense, thus allow less runs scored



I disagree. Bautista won't ever be a 1B... He's going to be an outfielder for the rest of his career but if it did change, it would be DH or even third base. The Jays have no need for Bautista to play first, and RF will be his position at least with us for a long time.

Cooshman
03-25-2012, 07:50 PM
Oh definitely, no doubt about it. You can bet AA has been trying to trade him for a while but no GM is biting... I don't blame them. Snider's game has been inconsistent every since he began playing at the MLB level.

Very little has changed, and although I do feel for him, Thames has beaten him out fair and square. I don't buy this whole "the organization hates him and isn't giving him a chance". That's bull come on. He's had every chance.

Farrell is one of the best manager's in the league IMO and if Snider can't crack making the team with him as our manager, then I stand by it.

Yeah, agreed. Obviously the Jays would love nothing more then to see Snider emerge into the player they had hoped he would become. Snider has had extended looks and has not been good. 24yrs old and his star is fading quickly (if it hasn't already) and the Jays probably more then any of us fans are the most upset by this fact.

ah nuts
03-25-2012, 07:51 PM
I can't remember, how many times did snider start the year in the minors??

... anyway, at least the next time snider is called up, he'll know he will stay for the remaining of the year. And he should be ready for it.

I'm a big snider fan, but i'm ok with this.

BlueJayFanDan
03-25-2012, 07:52 PM
I don't personally really like Snider all that much, but even I feel bad for the guy. His career has been one giant mess so far. Our management just has no clue what to do with him. I don't know what happens from here, but I kind of hope we just package him and send him off for a stud pitcher and get it over with.

statquo
03-25-2012, 07:55 PM
http://toronto.bluejays.mlb.com/news/article.jsp?ymd=20120325&content_id=27606028&vkey=news_tor&c_id=tor


"His swing is better, he's had good at-bats ... I think the changes he made to his swing really helped him, so he has to just continue doing it. And the minute we need to make a change, or we have a need, he's going to be right there waiting for us."

"They both had great springs," Anthopoulos said. "You take that and you combine what happened last year, it all adds up. If somebody had just fallen on his face in Spring Training, maybe it would have changed things a little bit, but last year was going to count."

It was basically a lose-lose for Snider unless Thames forgot to hit over the offseason. So there is no surprise he got sent down.

People who say Snider is a terrible hitter have basically had their bandwagon seat voided for when he comes up and crushes the ball later in the year.

ah nuts
03-25-2012, 07:56 PM
\

Farrell is one of the best manager's in the league IMO and if Snider can't crack making the team with him as our manager, then I stand by it.

well that has to be taken with a grain of salt. He rated himself a "c" last year.
... and the jo jo reyes thing...

ah nuts
03-25-2012, 07:59 PM
And who ever said Snider is far better defensively is way out of line. Thames is solid defensively, and has good speed in the OF. I don't get why Thames is hated on I really don't, he performed very well this spring. He earned it.

that's an awful lot of sport commentators / sport reporters / sport writers out of line.

ah nuts
03-25-2012, 08:02 PM
note: snider is a power bat, generally power bats are expected to strike quite a lot. Especially 24 year old power bats.

Farsight
03-25-2012, 08:04 PM
I am seeing 799Major League AB's for Snider, not sure where you are looking. 799AB's is more then an 1.25yrs of MLB AB's - even if you use 600AB's per season (which is way above average full time player AB's).

Bottom Line is Snider has been a terrible major league hitter, much worst then Lind. His swing needs some big time work and he is already 24yrs old. Sticking him in the lineup and removing Lind (no matter how you play around with the positions) is a downgrade for the Jays and makes no sense unless they feel they don't want to attempt to compete for a playoff spot this year. Lot's of AAAA a players out there and I fear the Snider is quickly falling into that category. I think the Jays brass privately thinks the same.
I hope that Snider can fulfill that top notch prospect tag but I am losing faith very quickly....hopefully he comes up here and mashes when he does! Ok, so Snider has had 1 1/3 season worth of at bats... barely any differece. However, to say that Snider is a bad hitter? he was putting an OPS of around 750 as a 21-22 year old in the majors... I dont know how you can dispute that. Last year he was bad, there is no denying that, but im not sure how you can conclude from that year alone, he will be a bad hitter

Him and Thames have put up almost identical offensive lines, as Snider has done it over 3 years, and at a much younger age. To make matters worse, he probably did worse offensively than he should have because he was always afraid that one bad week of hitting, would get him sent down, so he was pressing a lot more. Moreso, he has had a great minor league track record, performing above average at every level he played at, and at a very young age. He has nothing left to prove in the minors, its really getting redundant. If given the opportunity, Snider will be a good. Sounds really familiar to the Adam Lind situation in 2009...

ah nuts
03-25-2012, 08:05 PM
I disagree. Bautista won't ever be a 1B... He's going to be an outfielder for the rest of his career but if it did change, it would be DH or even third base. The Jays have no need for Bautista to play first, and RF will be his position at least with us for a long time.

It's not all about if bautusta can play outfield, but 1st can be a more injury free zone for your aging slugger. Less sprinting etc.

plus the jays have outstanding prospects for the out field.

Farsight
03-25-2012, 08:12 PM
I disagree. Bautista won't ever be a 1B... He's going to be an outfielder for the rest of his career but if it did change, it would be DH or even third base. The Jays have no need for Bautista to play first, and RF will be his position at least with us for a long time. Why would Bautista be a right fielder for the rest of his career, especially when his range is going to decrease, and all our position players in the minors are outfielders? Gose, Marisnick, Thames, Snider, Rasmus?. Bautista is average defensively in right, but he is one of the best offensive players. It only makes sense that he would move to first, as our outfield should be set with the aforementioned players

Sanyo
03-25-2012, 08:12 PM
Ha if you think Snider/Thames is a war this year, what happens when D'Arnaud/Gose are ready for 2013?

Who goes, who stays? Does Edwin stay? If so what happens with JP and Thames who will likely fight for the DH role? That's cause Gose will likely get the CF job and move Rasmus to LF.

Next year you'll have a JP/Travis war and Rasmus/Gose/Thames war with a secondary Thames/JP/Edwin (?) war.

This is just the beginning...

Farsight
03-25-2012, 08:17 PM
Ha if you think Snider/Thames is a war this year, what happens when D'Arnaud/Gose are ready for 2013?

Who goes, who stays? Does Edwin stay? If so what happens with JP and Thames who will likely fight for the DH role? That's cause Gose will likely get the CF job and move Rasmus to LF.

Next year you'll have a JP/Travis war and Rasmus/Gose/Thames war with a secondary Thames/JP/Edwin (?) war.

This is just the beginning... This is why Bautista should be moved to first in the near future. An outfield of Gose, Rasmus, Snider, with Thames as DH sounds like a better lineup than what we have currently

Cooshman
03-25-2012, 08:28 PM
This is why Bautista should be moved to first in the near future. An outfield of Gose, Rasmus, Snider, with Thames as DH sounds like a better lineup than what we have currently

Is Snider your brother or something!!?? LOL

If I had to make a bet, my money would be that Snider is not part of our future. Snider has not done very little in the 1.5+yrs of major league AB's to suggest otherwise.

BranWingss
03-25-2012, 08:33 PM
I've been waiting for this kid to break out for a few years now. He had so much hype coming up.

Farsight
03-25-2012, 08:34 PM
Is Snider your brother or something!!?? LOL

If I had to make a bet, my money would be that Snider is not part of our future. Snider has not done very little in the 1.5+yrs of major league AB's to suggest otherwise. Yes because you've shown otherwise. Because every 21-22 year old post an OPS of 750... Last year Snider had a bad year, no one is denying that, yet you are harping on that, yet you still maintain that Lind should be a part of the lineup, after having 2 atrocious seasons, being one of the worst first basemen. So i really question how you justify your logic

ghost dog
03-25-2012, 08:36 PM
Ha if you think Snider/Thames is a war this year, what happens when D'Arnaud/Gose are ready for 2013?

Who goes, who stays? Does Edwin stay? If so what happens with JP and Thames who will likely fight for the DH role? That's cause Gose will likely get the CF job and move Rasmus to LF.

Next year you'll have a JP/Travis war and Rasmus/Gose/Thames war with a secondary Thames/JP/Edwin (?) war.

This is just the beginning...

Got to love the talent pool. No more guys getting paid to just show up, Now it's fight for the job and fight to keep it.

MrForever
03-25-2012, 08:52 PM
Snider is an astronomically better player than Thames is at the moment and he has a higher ceiling too.

he put together a great spring, did literally everything imaginable and he still got shafted.

This is just absurd.

Cooshman
03-25-2012, 09:04 PM
Yes because you've shown otherwise. Because every 21-22 year old post an OPS of 750... Last year Snider had a bad year, no one is denying that, yet you are harping on that, yet you still maintain that Lind should be a part of the lineup, after having 2 atrocious seasons, being one of the worst first basemen. So i really question how you justify your logic

Here is your justification, as bad as Lind has been, he has been much better then Snider and has proven that he can be successful in the majors. Snider has proven so far absolutely nothing with a pretty fair sample size.

P.S. I am unsure if you are aware of this but Snider is not 21, not 22 and not even 23!! He is 24 years old.
What was his OBP, his OPS last year (.269 / .617) - once pitchers realized not to throw him fastballs anymore?? And for a power hitter? 3HR's in nearly 200AB's....YES 3 WHOLE HOMERUN'S!!!!

Honestly dude, your defense of Snider is a bit outrageous. Like you, I would love to see him turn it around but he has shown VERY little to date in over 1.5yrs worth of AB's.....

ah nuts
03-25-2012, 09:18 PM
Here is your justification, as bad as Lind has been, he has been much better then Snider and has proven that he can be successful in the majors. Snider has proven so far absolutely nothing with a pretty fair sample size.

P.S. I am unsure if you are aware of this but Snider is not 21, not 22 and not even 23!! He is 24 years old.
...

I don't care! For a 20(21,22,23) year old power hitter, Snider was handled in the worst way! When he failed he was sent down time and time again. He was over saturated with info on how to swing. You can add in poor timing injuries. This guy was put through the ringer.

if he spent 2 full years with the jays then I could see ur point, but he was so yo yo-ed. This is MLB not some bear league - 24 is nothing. Lind is 30 and still struggles with consistency.

Cooshman
03-25-2012, 09:25 PM
I don't care! For a 20(21,22,23) year old power hitter, Snider was handled in the worst way! When he failed he was sent down time and time again. He was over saturated with info on how to swing. You can add in poor timing injuries. This guy was put through the ringer.

if he spent 2 full years with the jays then I could see ur point, but he was so yo yo-ed. This is MLB not some bear league - 24 is nothing. Lind is 30 and still struggles with consistency.

By no means do I think 24 is old, it is more in response to the guy who in multiple postings talked about him being 21/22 with a .750OPS. I don't disagree with you either on the way Snider has been handled - Jays could have definitely done a better job. However, everyone and their mother knows he can't hit anything but a fastball and he has not been able to fix that problem (ala Chris Davis). Are you confident that if he had 2 full years as a pro that he would be any better? I certainly don't.
Are you saying the Jays are a better hitting team with Snider in and Lind out of the lineup?!
The bottom line point that I have been trying to make before any talks of Lind arose was that Thames winning the left field job was not the wrong decision.

Farsight
03-25-2012, 09:35 PM
By no means do I think 24 is old, it is more in response to the guy who in multiple postings talked about him being 21/22 with a .750OPS. I don't disagree with you either on the way Snider has been handled - Jays could have definitely done a better job. However, everyone and their mother knows he can't hit anything but a fastball and he has not been able to fix that problem (ala Chris Davis). Are you confident that if he had 2 full years as a pro that he would be any better? I certainly don't.
Are you saying the Jays are a better hitting team with Snider in and Lind out of the lineup?!
The bottom line point that I have been trying to make before any talks of Lind arose was that Thames winning the left field job was not the wrong decision. If Lind keeps on posting a wOBA around 310 like he has in the past 2 years, than there would not be a significant drop off with or without Lind in the Lineup.

LuckyLuke2
03-25-2012, 09:46 PM
Why would Bautista be a right fielder for the rest of his career, especially when his range is going to decrease, and all our position players in the minors are outfielders? Gose, Marisnick, Thames, Snider, Rasmus?. Bautista is average defensively in right, but he is one of the best offensive players. It only makes sense that he would move to first, as our outfield should be set with the aforementioned players

I just meant that as of right now and even in the near future Bautista won't be playing anywhere but RF. Gose won't be ready for another full year or even two, Marisnick the same even longer maybe. Thames is a LF, Snider is too and Rasmus will stick at CF until Gose is MLB ready.

Bautista has too good of an arm to be stationed at 1B.


that's an awful lot of sport commentators / sport reporters / sport writers out of line.

Snider's knack has and always will be his projected power... his defense has never been eye popping nor will it ever be. He's a good athlete overall, but nothing special.


note: snider is a power bat, generally power bats are expected to strike quite a lot. Especially 24 year old power bats.


A power bat...? That's saying a lot considering that he still hasn't developed into anything near that. Sure he has power potential but you need to hit a whole lot of home runs to be in an MLB lineup. Adam Dunn, Ryan Howard as examples of guys who hit the ball out of the park at mercy but strike out all the time....

Snider won't ever be what those guys are power wise, and as far as his strike out rate... it's been horrid ever since he set foot on an Major League field.

Krylian
03-25-2012, 09:47 PM
Jays are gonna regret jerking Snider around. Some may not see it now, but they will.

LuckyLuke2
03-25-2012, 09:51 PM
By no means do I think 24 is old, it is more in response to the guy who in multiple postings talked about him being 21/22 with a .750OPS. I don't disagree with you either on the way Snider has been handled - Jays could have definitely done a better job. However, everyone and their mother knows he can't hit anything but a fastball and he has not been able to fix that problem (ala Chris Davis). Are you confident that if he had 2 full years as a pro that he would be any better? I certainly don't.
Are you saying the Jays are a better hitting team with Snider in and Lind out of the lineup?!
The bottom line point that I have been trying to make before any talks of Lind arose was that Thames winning the left field job was not the wrong decision.



This. All of this. Snider can't hit anything but a fastball half the time, very true. Pitchers toy with him when they use their off speed pitch he actually looks foolish... I remember Snider going down on 3 swinging strikes more than once.

Farsight
03-25-2012, 09:52 PM
I just meant that as of right now and even in the near future Bautista won't be playing anywhere but RF. Gose won't be ready for another full year or even two, Marisnick the same even longer maybe. Thames is a LF, Snider is too and Rasmus will stick at CF until Gose is MLB ready.

Bautista has too good of an arm to be stationed at 1B.



Snider's knack has and always will be his projected power... his defense has never been eye popping nor will it ever be. He's a good athlete overall, but nothing special.




A power bat...? That's saying a lot considering that he still hasn't developed into anything near that. Sure he has power potential but you need to hit a whole lot of home runs to be in an MLB lineup. Adam Dunn, Ryan Howard as examples of guys who hit the ball out of the park at mercy but strike out all the time....

Snider won't ever be what those guys are power wise, and as far as his strike out rate... it's been horrid ever since he set foot on an Major League field. In another 2 years i wouldnt be surprised to see Bautista at first as it would fit a team need and as his range will be declining. At best Bautista is an average defensive right fielder, his biggest asset is his arm. However, whats the point of having a good arm in the outfield if you cant get to balls? And Snider is actually a pretty good fielder. you can check all the defensive metrics you want, but in the past 2 years he has been good

bomber0104
03-25-2012, 10:40 PM
What has Snider done in 800AB's that makes you think he will produce anything close to Lind's numbers??
I hope that Snider can get it together (Great Spring but Whoopee-do-da) but he is a huge downgrade from Lind right now....

Your hard on for Snider is unwarranted and he has had nearly 2 full seasons of AB's (combined) and showed very little - Hello Chris Davis part two.

Hope I am wrong and Snider finally comes around, but something tells me this kid is not much more then a AAAA type player.

I would bet that AA has tried to trade Snider 10x over and no one is biting - there is a reason why!!

I bet he hasn't ..

Sanyo
03-25-2012, 10:40 PM
If I was Snider I would just stand at the plate and not swing at anything! Let the pitchers make the adjustments...

Twitchy
03-25-2012, 10:49 PM
Not sure why this is a huge surprise. It didn't matter that Snider outperformed Thames, they were never going to give him the left field spot. And since they gave Encarnacion the DH spot they weren't looking at letting Thames/Snider play at the same time. I think that was a mistake on their part, but really it's not going to make a huge difference.

Realistically Thames did about as well as Snider did in his first 3 seasons in the majors. Snider was lost last year but before that he was just as good and at times better than Thames. Either way both are good prospects, and Snider is bound to be back at some point.

Not worth getting upset about. If they dick him around again and either don't call him up or call him up and bat him 9th and play him every other day, then there's a problem. It's not like he can learn anything hitting in Vegas where Chris Woodward looks like Albert Pujols, but someone is bound to get injured or he'll force his way up.

T.O.Bombinators
03-25-2012, 10:57 PM
sinders my favourite player, and while i dont like how hes been jerked around between the majors and AAA and never really getting a full year in the bigs to work through his problems and slumps in toronto, i think its best he starts in AAA and to continue to work on his swing and we'll see how thames does and bring sinder up if he stuggles and sniders ready. and once hes back hopefully hes back for good

scotttube
03-25-2012, 11:02 PM
Although I like Snider I don't really mind this. Let him take Thames' role from last year and be the talented 24 year old knocking on the door. I'm confident that at some point this year Snider is going to supplant Thames in left. If Snider had started in left and lost his job again it would be a much worse scenario for Snider.

Sanyo
03-25-2012, 11:08 PM
Well soon enough they'll have to make the decision on who to keep and who to trade.

This is Snider last year with options...next year he will need to clear waivers, so this is where you have to decide whether to trade Snider now and get maybe something of value back based on his spring training or the Jays may be auditioning Thames to teams to trade him possibly?

Either way I smell a trade happening this year...

jaysnraptors44
03-25-2012, 11:10 PM
Only time will tell .. if this was the right move im rooting for thames tho so i dont care about the move

Toxeryll
03-25-2012, 11:28 PM
sucks for snider but i dont really care since our outfield is stacked in the minors. i dont think these guys will have a future in toronto.

JermanJaysFan
03-25-2012, 11:40 PM
Hopefully Snider is able to go down to AAA and post a .390/.470/.620 line, since it seems AA thinks his current .330/.407/.550 line hasn't proven enough.

LuckyLuke2
03-25-2012, 11:45 PM
In the Star it said he took it like a pro apparently. That's what I mean when I say I am not concerned by this. Snider has to prove to Toronto that he can remain consistent. That's his knock, he hasn't been at all.

If he can prove that he can hit the ball for a decent average while reducing his strike out totals then he will be the LF.

Halladay
03-26-2012, 12:00 AM
It's funny because when your farm is this loaded, this is going to happen all too often. Trust me guys, this is only the beginning. Next year it will be why is ______ on the team when we have ______!! Snider will get his chance, we still have question marks at DH and at first. Two positions Thames likely ends up playing in the near future. The guy is only 24, people need to relax. Most guys are in the minors until they're 24 or 25.

JaysFan87
03-26-2012, 01:47 AM
I disagree. Bautista won't ever be a 1B... He's going to be an outfielder for the rest of his career but if it did change, it would be DH or even third base. The Jays have no need for Bautista to play first, and RF will be his position at least with us for a long time.

Bautista prolly has 2 maybe 3 more year in RF before he moves to 1B. It all depends on Lind and how fast Gose/Marisnick/Snider develop.

JaysFan87
03-26-2012, 01:52 AM
Ha if you think Snider/Thames is a war this year, what happens when D'Arnaud/Gose are ready for 2013?

Who goes, who stays? Does Edwin stay? If so what happens with JP and Thames who will likely fight for the DH role? That's cause Gose will likely get the CF job and move Rasmus to LF.

Next year you'll have a JP/Travis war and Rasmus/Gose/Thames war with a secondary Thames/JP/Edwin (?) war.

This is just the beginning...

If all those players play to their skills and develop then D'arnaud wil start at C, Snider in LF, Gose in CF. If that were the case then this team would be freakishly good offensively.

JaysFan87
03-26-2012, 01:53 AM
Is Snider your brother or something!!?? LOL

If I had to make a bet, my money would be that Snider is not part of our future. Snider has not done very little in the 1.5+yrs of major league AB's to suggest otherwise.

Ummm you should re-read what you wrote.

wamco
03-26-2012, 06:31 AM
Lots of overreaction. I mean this was dumb, but inevitable. Kid is still super talented and still just 24. This isn't a death sentence or something, as long as he's not stuck in Vegas for more than a month or so.

I agree with the overreaction statement. Even if he stays a few months, that is ok with me. That means our mlb bats are producing. If Snider is as good as his potential, we are still looking at simply a hiccup in a long career.

wamco
03-26-2012, 06:32 AM
It's funny because when your farm is this loaded, this is going to happen all too often. Trust me guys, this is only the beginning. Next year it will be why is ______ on the team when we have ______!! Snider will get his chance, we still have question marks at DH and at first. Two positions Thames likely ends up playing in the near future. The guy is only 24, people need to relax. Most guys are in the minors until they're 24 or 25.

not most good players

Cooshman
03-26-2012, 07:18 AM
Ummm you should re-read what you wrote.

Alright nitpick Sally....
You know you have too much time on your hands when you start pointing out other peoples grammatical errors.
I am sure people understood the post.

Valleyfella
03-26-2012, 07:46 AM
A lot of Snider defenders are like Tebow defenders: he's their golden boy and can do no wrong. If he doesn't play it's because management doesn't get it and is giving him the shaft.

I'm a Blue Jays fan first and a Snider or Thames fan second. In other words, I don't really have a dog in this fight. If the Jays feel Thames is the better guy to start the season in left and Snider is better suited to be in Vegas, fine. It's not carved in stone. If Thames struggles and Snider gets good reviews in AAA, he'll get his chance.

bartron_44
03-26-2012, 09:41 AM
Hopefully Snider is able to go down to AAA and post a .390/.470/.620 line, since it seems AA thinks his current .330/.407/.550 line hasn't proven enough.

Performing in the PCL really doesn't carry much weight, but if you want to go there, last year Thames outperformed snider in Vegas. Thames put up numbers similar to Brett Lawrie in the AAA....i.e DOMINATED!!!

As much as I like Snider, people need to start realizing just how good of a hitter Thames actually is. Look at these triple slashes in the minors:

2009 in A+: .313/.386/.487
2010 in AA: .288/.370/.526
2011 in AAA:.352/.423/.610

The kid had an OPS over .870 his entire time in the minor leagues (minus the 7 games in rookie ball his first year) . He also admits that he got too muscle bound last year from working out too hard, and that it really hurt his running and throwing in the OF last season.

JermanJaysFan
03-26-2012, 09:57 AM
Performing in the PCL really doesn't carry much weight, but if you want to go there, last year Thames outperformed snider in Vegas. Thames put up numbers similar to Brett Lawrie in the AAA....i.e DOMINATED!!!

As much as I like Snider, people need to start realizing just how good of a hitter Thames actually is. Look at these triple slashes in the minors:

2009 in A+: .313/.386/.487
2010 in AA: .288/.370/.526
2011 in AAA:.352/.423/.610

The kid had an OPS over .870 his entire time in the minor leagues (minus the 7 games in rookie ball his first year) . He also admits that he got too muscle bound last year from working out too hard, and that it really hurt his running and throwing in the OF last season.
I know what Thames has done, and I know what Snider has done. My point is just that we already know Snider (and Thames, for that matter) can tear the cover off the ball in AAA. So sending Snider (or Thames) down until they are "ready" is useless (unless there is a specific mechanics-type thing to work on) because we know they are going to mash, and we know that so far, their mashing in AAA translates into mediocre big league numbers. Both guys only need to prove whether they can hit at the big-league level or not. I always was a proponent of getting both guys substantial big league ABs in the LF/DH/4th OF/PH slots in the bigs and tossing Francisco by the wayside.

ah nuts
03-26-2012, 10:00 AM
By no means do I think 24 is old, it is more in response to the guy who in multiple postings talked about him being 21/22 with a .750OPS. I don't disagree with you either on the way Snider has been handled - Jays could have definitely done a better job. However, everyone and their mother knows he can't hit anything but a fastball and he has not been able to fix that problem (ala Chris Davis). Are you confident that if he had 2 full years as a pro that he would be any better? I certainly don't.
Are you saying the Jays are a better hitting team with Snider in and Lind out of the lineup?!
The bottom line point that I have been trying to make before any talks of Lind arose was that Thames winning the left field job was not the wrong decision.

all I can say about say about snider is I believe he can be a very potent player but it may not happen until he is 26 or 27 years old.

Kenny Powders
03-26-2012, 10:08 AM
Oh definitely, no doubt about it. You can bet AA has been trying to trade him for a while but no GM is biting... I don't blame them. Snider's game has been inconsistent every since he began playing at the MLB level.

Very little has changed, and although I do feel for him, Thames has beaten him out fair and square. I don't buy this whole "the organization hates him and isn't giving him a chance". That's bull come on. He's had every chance.

Farrell is one of the best manager's in the league IMO and if Snider can't crack making the team with him as our manager, then I stand by it.

How so? Snider is the type of player that AA has trhived on trying to get, high risk high reward, so why would he try to trade him, when he is they type of player he loves to aquire?

TRIUMPHATOR
03-26-2012, 10:09 AM
Wilner "surprised by the timing but not surprised with the decision."

ah nuts
03-26-2012, 10:09 AM
A power bat...? That's saying a lot considering that he still hasn't developed into anything near that. Sure he has power potential but you need to hit a whole lot of home runs to be in an MLB lineup. Adam Dunn, Ryan Howard as examples of guys who hit the ball out of the park at mercy but strike out all the time....


that's just wrong.

I think it's obvious to most, if or when Snider develops into a major league hitter, he is going to become a monster. He is only turning 24 and has monster power. He had monster power at 20. I can only imagine when he becomes a man at 28year old.

aka. Scary power.

ah nuts
03-26-2012, 10:25 AM
This. All of this. Snider can't hit anything but a fastball half the time, very true. Pitchers toy with him when they use their off speed pitch he actually looks foolish... I remember Snider going down on 3 swinging strikes more than once.

i remember when snider was hot and the jays went through a stretch when they faced ace after ace. And snider was the only one who got hits or good at bats.... then he got the wrist injury... that's the snider i remember. So i see the ability to hit being there.

ah nuts
03-26-2012, 10:33 AM
Are you confident that if he had 2 full years as a pro that he would be any better? I certainly don't.
Are you saying the Jays are a better hitting team with Snider in and Lind out of the lineup?!
.

I'm confident if John Farrel was the manager he is today back then plus AA instead of the Cito - JP combo, (and minus the wrist injury), snider could very well be in the all star voting.

I'm not sure where this Lind talk is coming from. I'm pro Lind for one more year plus I don't have a problem with Snider in AAA. I see Snider as being so messed with, he could use a little more time to find out "his swing" in AAA.

Cooshman
03-26-2012, 10:36 AM
How so? Snider is the type of player that AA has trhived on trying to get, high risk high reward, so why would he try to trade him, when he is they type of player he loves to aquire?

I might be wrong on this but who has AA gotten that is High Risk?
Brett Lawrie? Sergio Santos? Santos proved over a full year that he is a very capable pullpen arm. Lawrie is a stud prospect that was high on everyones top prospects list (although I suppose it's still always risky when they haven't proven anything in the majors).

Do you think that AA would be so high on a guy that has been show cased for nearly 800 major league AB's and been completely terrible? Do you think AA would be so high on guys like Chris Davis?! I don't, and I think Chris Davis comparisson to Travis Snider is a very good one.

Kenny Powders
03-26-2012, 10:36 AM
I'm confident if John Farrel was the manager he is today back then plus AA instead of the Cito - JP combo, (and minus the wrist injury), snider could very well be in the all star voting.

I'm not sure where this Lind talk is coming from. I'm pro Lind for one more year plus I don't have a problem with Snider in AAA. I see Snider as being so messed with, he could use a little more time to find out "his swing" in AAA.

Thats all this guy talks about is Lind. I think it may see some sort of fetish that he has.

Kenny Powders
03-26-2012, 10:38 AM
I might be wrong on this but who has AA gotten that is High Risk?
Brett Lawrie? Sergio Santos? Santos proved over a full year that he is a very capable pullpen arm. Lawrie is a stud prospect that was high on everyones top prospects list (although I suppose it's still always risky when they haven't proven anything in the majors).

Do you think that AA would be so high on a guy that has been show cased for nearly 800 major league AB's and been completely terrible? Do you think AA would be so high on guys like Chris Davis?! I don't, and I think Chris Davis comparisson to Travis Snider is a very good one.

Rasmus and Morrow come to mind. Add that to Lawrie and Santos and thats 4. I guess I should of said projectible players and he mentioned it numerous times that is the type of players he is after.

Cooshman
03-26-2012, 10:47 AM
I'm confident if John Farrel was the manager he is today back then plus AA instead of the Cito - JP combo, (and minus the wrist injury), snider could very well be in the all star voting.

I'm not sure where this Lind talk is coming from. I'm pro Lind for one more year plus I don't have a problem with Snider in AAA. I see Snider as being so messed with, he could use a little more time to find out "his swing" in AAA.

I agree, I am also pro Lind for one more year - he needs to return to form or he won't be a Jay next year.
The Lind comment came from someone who was upset that Lind was sent down and said that Snider should have remained in LF, Thames RF and Bautista at first.

As for your confidence that Snider would very well be in the All-Star voting...I just don't see it. Snider can't hit anything but fastballs and has not adapted to major league pitching in 800AB's. Sure, he had a small hot streak, but looking at his overall numbers reveals that it was little more then a spike in his MLB career.

Cooshman
03-26-2012, 11:00 AM
Rasmus and Morrow come to mind. Add that to Lawrie and Santos and thats 4. I guess I should of said projectible players and he mentioned it numerous times that is the type of players he is after.

Sure, but consider what we sent out (at the time of the trade) for Rasmus and Morrow. If Snider were traded for the same return, people on here would be livid!!! Any GM would trade spare parts for "High Risk, High Reward" players (at the time that's all they were from our end).
Snider right now really is only worth spare parts until he proves otherwise.

Cooshman
03-26-2012, 11:03 AM
Thats all this guy talks about is Lind. I think it may see some sort of fetish that he has.

Maybe if you read the thread and realize that I was responding to another poster who said they would prefer Snider over Lind (and that we should just get rid of Lind to let Snider play in the majors), you would know why I was talking about him. Personally, I think have a bit of a fetish with me and it almost has a stalking feeling to it at this point...
Go away you freak!!

ah nuts
03-26-2012, 11:34 AM
Sure, but consider what we sent out (at the time of the trade) for Rasmus and Morrow. If Snider were traded for the same return, people on here would be livid!!! Any GM would trade spare parts for "High Risk, High Reward" players (at the time that's all they were from our end).
Snider right now really is only worth spare parts until he proves otherwise.

if AA was opened to trading snider for only spare parts, you will have every team tripping over themselves trying to contact AA.

"until he proves otherwise", I find that an odd comment since teams pay millions for 18 years olds who have not proved themselves. Yes snider had MLB ABs but they were scattered, confusing( sits out for days from lefties/changing swings) plus injury riddled.

again, bottom line, it is well known it is 2x as hard for a power hitter to make the transition for minor to the majors than a contact hitter as such, and thereby, deserves more patience. Snider was handled very poorly and any team would fear giving up on him so early.

TRIUMPHATOR
03-26-2012, 12:20 PM
if AA was opened to trading snider for only spare parts, you will have every team tripping over themselves trying to contact AA.

"until he proves otherwise", I find that an odd comment since teams pay millions for 18 years olds who have not proved themselves. Yes snider had MLB ABs but they were scattered, confusing( sits out for days from lefties/changing swings) plus injury riddled.

again, bottom line, it is well known it is 2x as hard for a power hitter to make the transition for minor to the majors than a contact hitter as such, and thereby, deserves more patients. Snider was handled very poorly and any team would fear giving up on him so early.

Paging Dr. Snider, Dr. Snider line 1 please.lol

Farsight
03-26-2012, 12:48 PM
I agree, I am also pro Lind for one more year - he needs to return to form or he won't be a Jay next year.
The Lind comment came from someone who was upset that Lind was sent down and said that Snider should have remained in LF, Thames RF and Bautista at first.

As for your confidence that Snider would very well be in the All-Star voting...I just don't see it. Snider can't hit anything but fastballs and has not adapted to major league pitching in 800AB's. Sure, he had a small hot streak, but looking at his overall numbers reveals that it was little more then a spike in his MLB career. No i did not. What i said is that the lineup would be better wiithout Lind in it, and it would solve the issue of Snider/Thames that is all. You started to go at it about Lind being much better than Snider and i recanted, and thats how the argument about Lind and Snider started up

But im done with that whole argument as no one will be able to convince the other

Cooshman
03-26-2012, 02:02 PM
No i did not. What i said is that the lineup would be better wiithout Lind in it, and it would solve the issue of Snider/Thames that is all. You started to go at it about Lind being much better than Snider and i recanted, and thats how the argument about Lind and Snider started up

But im done with that whole argument as no one will be able to convince the other

You think if the Jays insert Snider and remove Lind from their lineup, shuffle positions around so that defensively it works (i.e. Bautista to first)....this will be a better hitting team??!!!
Lind > Snider - without a doubt
So not sure how you could possibly come to the above conclusion.

Cooshman
03-26-2012, 02:08 PM
if AA was opened to trading snider for only spare parts, you will have every team tripping over themselves trying to contact AA.

"until he proves otherwise", I find that an odd comment since teams pay millions for 18 years olds who have not proved themselves. Yes snider had MLB ABs but they were scattered, confusing( sits out for days from lefties/changing swings) plus injury riddled.

again, bottom line, it is well known it is 2x as hard for a power hitter to make the transition for minor to the majors than a contact hitter as such, and thereby, deserves more patience. Snider was handled very poorly and any team would fear giving up on him so early.

Snider has had 800MLB AB's - even if scattered it is still a pretty decent sample size to show that he cannot hit major league pitchers. The reason being, he cannot hit anything but fastballs. This is nothing new, many great power hitting prospects who raked minor league pitching went on to do nothing with their Major League careers because they could not figure out how to hit anything other then a fastball....Dallas McPherson, Brandon Wood, Chris Davis and Travis Snider now quickly falling into this group.

Edit - Wanted to also add that interestingly enough, if you look at these guys careers, they followed a similar path - being yo-yoed up and down. Mostly likely because they just hurt the team when inserted in the lineup and yet to good to keep on the bench...get sent down and raked, called up and stunk....I don't think wha'ts happening to Snider is an uncommon story for power hitters that rake in minors and suck in majors.

LuckyLuke2
03-26-2012, 02:32 PM
that's just wrong.

I think it's obvious to most, if or when Snider develops into a major league hitter, he is going to become a monster. He is only turning 24 and has monster power. He had monster power at 20. I can only imagine when he becomes a man at 28year old.

I suppose but still. If Snider is going to make that transition, it's going to take a whole lot more consistency. I honestly do feel for him, I don't think that he stays with Toronto. If he goes somewhere else and is successful then good for him, but I am not too worried especially with all the talent the Jays have in the minors.

aka. Scary power.


i remember when snider was hot and the jays went through a stretch when they faced ace after ace. And snider was the only one who got hits or good at bats.... then he got the wrist injury... that's the snider i remember. So i see the ability to hit being there.

Yeah sure he may have been hitting then but that's my point... he comes up, will hit the crap out of the ball and everyone gets excited, and then he goes ice cold and looks foolish at the plate. Can't happen.


How so? Snider is the type of player that AA has trhived on trying to get, high risk high reward, so why would he try to trade him, when he is they type of player he loves to aquire?


I don't think AA thrives on players like Snider... the only real risk AA has traded for has been Rasmus. I don't agree that Morrow was as much of a risk.

I think that AA eventually will have too. I mean they won't hang on to Snider forever waiting for him to become consistent. You can bet if AA gets a good deal in place Snider will be the first to be dealt.

Farsight
03-26-2012, 03:30 PM
You think if the Jays insert Snider and remove Lind from their lineup, shuffle positions around so that defensively it works (i.e. Bautista to first)....this will be a better hitting team??!!!
Lind > Snider - without a doubt
So not sure how you could possibly come to the above conclusion. They would be a better team all around, as the offense would not suffer a lot. Since Lind posted a wOBA of 310 in the past 2 years (which is pretty poor offense from a first basemen). EE/Thames/Snider can make up for it, and by the jays putting Bautista at first or right, and Snider and Left/Right, the team would be better defensively. So over all there offensive production would not drop off really, while being a team that preserves more runs defensively. There are two aspects to the game, creating runs, and preventing runs, and over all they would be better.

For example you can put Encarnacion and his 340 wOBA at first, which is 30 points higher than Lind, meaning that Encarnacion creates more runs than Lind. Moreover, Thames/Snider would probably have a wOBA around of atleast 300+, so the run differential on offense would not suffer that much, while we are able to field a better team defensively, leading to less runs scored on us,

Thats the last im going to say about that event as we are off topic

Towelie
03-26-2012, 03:33 PM
Wow, I can't even begin to imagine what else he could have done to be given his final chance at being successful. This legit sucks for him. Kinda pissed off he wasn't picked.

Also I'd rather give Snider a try instead of getting the usual awful production from Lind. But I get it, Snider has options, and Lind nobody would want to touch and you would hate to have that money sitting on the bench.

Cooshman
03-26-2012, 03:51 PM
Wow, I can't even begin to imagine what else he could have done to be given his final chance at being successful. This legit sucks for him. Kinda pissed off he wasn't picked.

Also I'd rather give Snider a try instead of getting the usual awful production from Lind. But I get it, Snider has options, and Lind nobody would want to touch and you would hate to have that money sitting on the bench.

Snider hit bombs off minor leaguers this spring - whoopee!!
Do you know he also struck out 17 times in 48AB's??!!
He is where he deserves to be, in the minor leagues. When someone gets injured, he'll come up....suck way more then Lind and be sent down again.

Farsight
03-26-2012, 04:14 PM
Snider hit bombs off minor leaguers this spring - whoopee!!
Do you know he also struck out 17 times in 48AB's??!!
He is where he deserves to be, in the minor leagues. When someone gets injured, he'll come up....suck way more then Lind and be sent down again. Did you also know that Thames only hit one home run off the same pitching? it goes both ways. Snider had an OPS of close to .1000, while Thames had an OPS of .900

Ace Drivers
03-26-2012, 04:24 PM
I can't understand why people think Snider isn't getting a fair shake?

Not only did Thames perform better this spring (at worst it was a tie), he has proven albeit over a small sample size that he can hit in the bigs...Snider has not, previous to this year he was handed the job twice out of spring training and failed to catch-on...I would trade Snider while his value is high...

I say high because he did have a very good spring...

Cooshman
03-26-2012, 04:27 PM
Did you also know that Thames only hit one home run off the same pitching? it goes both ways. Snider had an OPS of close to .1000, while Thames had an OPS of .900

You need to get over it...
Snideris in the minors for a reason, he can't hit major league pitching and has been give 800AB's to prove himself. Thames is a much better option right now....spring training means very little and Snider continued to prove that he has very little bat control with 17K's in 48AB's....when that turns to major league pitching, he will go right back to his .270OBP ways.

Cooshman
03-26-2012, 04:29 PM
I can't understand why people think Snider isn't getting a fair shake?

Not only did Thames perform better this spring (at worst it was a tie), he has proven albeit over a small sample size that he can hit in the bigs...Snider has not, previous to this year he was handed the job twice out of spring training and failed to catch-on...I would trade Snider while his value is high...

I say high because he did have a very good spring...

Snider's value is almost none existent...If it were high, AA would have traded him 10X over.

Ace Drivers
03-26-2012, 04:31 PM
You need to get over it...
Snideris in the minors for a reason, he can't hit major league pitching and has been give 800AB's to prove himself. Thames is a much better option right now....spring training means very little and Snider continued to prove that he has very little bat control with 17K's in 48AB's....when that turns to major league pitching, he will go right back to his .270OBP ways.

Agreed...I find that some people tend to want all of our hot prospects up here now because they are better than what is here...

Not to drudge up an old discussion, and yes I agree that he projects to be better...but based on this spring D'Arnaud is exactly where he needs to be.

Plus there's an old expression...a bird in the hand is worth more than two in the bush

Ace Drivers
03-26-2012, 04:32 PM
Snider's value is almost none existent...If it were high, AA would have traded him 10X over.

It's higher now than 3 months from now after yet another failed attempt to hit big league pitching...at least now he looks like a legit prospect

LuckyLuke2
03-26-2012, 05:03 PM
You need to get over it...
Snideris in the minors for a reason, he can't hit major league pitching and has been give 800AB's to prove himself. Thames is a much better option right now....spring training means very little and Snider continued to prove that he has very little bat control with 17K's in 48AB's....when that turns to major league pitching, he will go right back to his .270OBP ways.

Finally someone with sense.

It's pretty simple, Snider is there for a reason, he's struggled to remain consistent. All this booo wah stuff has to stop. He's a man not a 14 year old playing bantam ball.

If he works hard he'll be consistent right now he isn't.

LuckyLuke2
03-26-2012, 05:04 PM
I think people tend to fall in love with the guy because there was so much hype when he first broke into the majors... like everyone has this super man crush on Snider. He's simply not playing good enough, he's not the only young kid who struggles... get over it.

Farsight
03-26-2012, 05:17 PM
You need to get over it...
Snideris in the minors for a reason, he can't hit major league pitching and has been give 800AB's to prove himself. Thames is a much better option right now....spring training means very little and Snider continued to prove that he has very little bat control with 17K's in 48AB's....when that turns to major league pitching, he will go right back to his .270OBP ways. Snider in his first two years of at bats were just as good as Thames 200AB this year and at a much younger age. No one is denying that he had a bad 2011, but it was only 200AB, he never had an attempt to rebound from the bad month.

Who is to say that Thames doesnt hit 180/240/350 this year? or has a bad 2 months like Snider, does that make him a bad hitter? No one is certain, because obviously baseball is a sport where you go through ups and downs, however, the team should stay behind him and let him have a full year of at bats to properly judge the player. They should not send a player down after a bad month or so, especially as younger players are more prone to go threw bad streches, and by allowing them a full season, they can adjust to what they are doing wrong.

My issue is that you seem to be judging Snider from 2 bad months in 2011. However it seems you are judging Snider just off his 2011, which was only 200 AB. Because before that Snider has been pretty stellar throughout his career in the minors, and pretty good in the majors based on age. If you look at Pedroia's stint with the Redsox, for the first month and a bit he hit under 200, and he was allowed to play through his struggles. At the end of the year he hit over 300

Im not denying that im hard pressed to see Snider in the minors, as i wished he started the season in left field, and im coming to accept the fact that Thames will be starting. However, i believe if given a full season of at bats (allowing him go through his ups and downs without the threat of being demoted) we will see Snider perform well, as he never had that opportunity. I just think Snider deserves a fair shot, that is what im advocating

Kenny Powders
03-26-2012, 05:28 PM
Yeah sure he may have been hitting then but that's my point... he comes up, will hit the crap out of the ball and everyone gets excited, and then he goes ice cold and looks foolish at the plate. Can't happen.




I don't think AA thrives on players like Snider... the only real risk AA has traded for has been Rasmus. I don't agree that Morrow was as much of a risk.

I think that AA eventually will have too. I mean they won't hang on to Snider forever waiting for him to become consistent. You can bet if AA gets a good deal in place Snider will be the first to be dealt.

Thats the thing, he hasn't been given a fair shake. Anytime he shows signs of struggling he is sent down or demoted, where as Thames is given the opportunity to hit 2nd infront of Bautista.

Farsight
03-26-2012, 05:33 PM
Thats the thing, he hasn't been given a fair shake. Anytime he shows signs of struggling he is sent down or demoted, where as Thames is given the opportunity to hit 2nd infront of Bautista. Yeah, especially since you will see a lot of fast balls because they dont want to walk someone as Bautista is next in line to drive in runs. That is what ive been trying to advocate, give the guy a fair shot

rapsjaysfan88
03-26-2012, 05:48 PM
Yeah, especially since you will see a lot of fast balls because they dont want to walk someone as Bautista is next in line to drive in runs. That is what ive been trying to advocate, give the guy a fair shot

imagine the damage snider could do with a healthy dose of fastballs.. guess we might never know.

Nick O
03-26-2012, 06:11 PM
good.. Thames>>

town123
03-26-2012, 06:26 PM
Snider will be up for Rasmus. That's the one guy I'm worried about.

Cooshman
03-26-2012, 06:28 PM
Snider in his first two years of at bats were just as good as Thames 200AB this year and at a much younger age. No one is denying that he had a bad 2011, but it was only 200AB, he never had an attempt to rebound from the bad month.

Who is to say that Thames doesnt hit 180/240/350 this year? or has a bad 2 months like Snider, does that make him a bad hitter? No one is certain, because obviously baseball is a sport where you go through ups and downs, however, the team should stay behind him and let him have a full year of at bats to properly judge the player. They should not send a player down after a bad month or so, especially as younger players are more prone to go threw bad streches, and by allowing them a full season, they can adjust to what they are doing wrong.

My issue is that you seem to be judging Snider from 2 bad months in 2011. However it seems you are judging Snider just off his 2011, which was only 200 AB. Because before that Snider has been pretty stellar throughout his career in the minors, and pretty good in the majors based on age. If you look at Pedroia's stint with the Redsox, for the first month and a bit he hit under 200, and he was allowed to play through his struggles. At the end of the year he hit over 300

Im not denying that im hard pressed to see Snider in the minors, as i wished he started the season in left field, and im coming to accept the fact that Thames will be starting. However, i believe if given a full season of at bats (allowing him go through his ups and downs without the threat of being demoted) we will see Snider perform well, as is an opportunity he has never been given. I just think Snider deserves a fair shot, that is what im advocating

Neither of us are going to change each others minds so I guess we are going to have to agree to disagree.

I think we can both agree on the hope that Snider becomes the stud everyone was hoping for.......

BBB
03-26-2012, 06:43 PM
All I can see is Snider taking a big swing full of air, getting fooled by a breaking ball. Glad Thames won the battle.

Nick O
03-26-2012, 06:58 PM
All I can see is Snider taking a big swing full of air, getting fooled by a breaking ball. Glad Thames won the battle.

this... Snider is painful to watch at the plate. hes usually screwed any time we face a pitcher with a good breaking ball

2009mvp
03-26-2012, 06:59 PM
He's hit curveballs pretty damn well (and better than Thames) in his career, but let's not let facts get in the way of ****ting on our own players.

Nick O
03-26-2012, 07:02 PM
Snider hasnt reached his potential I agree But i am confident in saying hes never going to be what people thought he was.. Im not even sure where he got these expectations heaped on him.. Toronto fans keep doing this. next year when Jonas Valencunias comes to the Raptors for whatever reason Rap fans have him pegged as our saviour when he wont be. I bet you a big reason some of these guys struggle is due the unfair expectations thrown at them by our fans. I never saw any reason why we should think Snider is going to be some .300 hitting 30 home run 100+ RBI guy like so many of our fans guessed.. Do I believe hes better then how hes produced? yes I do but where this goldy praise came from I dont know.. Lets see the guy produce and then heap praise one him .

Nick O
03-26-2012, 07:02 PM
He's hit curveballs pretty damn well (and better than Thames) in his career, but let's not let facts get in the way of ****ting on our own players.

okay.,. the how about the fact Thames batting average was higher than Sniders On base percentage... explain that one..

2009mvp
03-26-2012, 07:05 PM
No the problem is expecting kids to turn into superstars overnight. The guy just turned 24 for **** sakes, at his age Carlos Delgado had yet to put up an .800 OPS at the big league level. Good thing we kicked that guy to the curb prematurely, right?

Cooshman
03-26-2012, 07:05 PM
He's hit curveballs pretty damn well (and better than Thames) in his career, but let's not let facts get in the way of ****ting on our own players.

:facepalm:

2009mvp
03-26-2012, 07:06 PM
okay.,. the how about the fact Thames batting average was higher than Sniders On base percentage... explain that one..

Find a single post on the entire forum defending Snider's 2011. I'll wait.

Nick O
03-26-2012, 07:07 PM
No the problem is expecting kids to turn into superstars overnight. The guy just turned 24 for **** sakes, at his age Carlos Delgado had yet to put up an .800 OPS at the big league level. Good thing we kicked that guy to the curb prematurely, right?

we havnt kicked him snider to the curb.. we keep bringing him up and he keeps failing.. hes gonna be up at some point this season and im willing to bet that average doesnt top .265 and he will still K alot... hope im wrong but i dont see it changing much. I do see his power numbers improving however

Nick O
03-26-2012, 07:09 PM
Find a single post on the entire forum defending Snider's 2011. I'll wait.

then how the hell does he deserve to be starting over Thames.... how unfair to thames would that be.. "hey kid so we know you played better and we you worked hard but were gonna give the job to someone less deserving" .. thats not how it works.. the best players play.

2009mvp
03-26-2012, 07:18 PM
then how the hell does he deserve to be starting over Thames.... how unfair to thames would that be.. "hey kid so we know you played better and we you worked hard but were gonna give the job to someone less deserving" .. thats not how it works.. the best players play.

...which is why I've said numerous times that I'm OK with the decision. What I have a problem with is Blue Jay fans tearing Snider's game apart while completely ignoring the positives. Thames is a cool guy who could be an OK big league hitter, but realistically if one of the two is ever gonna be a starting OFer on a competitive team (and there's a pretty good chance neither do) it's Snider.

Cooshman
03-26-2012, 07:20 PM
No the problem is expecting kids to turn into superstars overnight. The guy just turned 24 for **** sakes, at his age Carlos Delgado had yet to put up an .800 OPS at the big league level. Good thing we kicked that guy to the curb prematurely, right?

Delgado and Snider are polar opposites - Delgado had a couple call ups and stuck on his 3rd with a amazing numbers - pitchers couldn't adjust to him and he became a star. Snider has had 4 call ups with a bit of early success, pitchers adjusted, realized he could not hit the curve ball and his numbers have taken a nose dive. The comparison makes no sense and actually strengthens the argument as to why Snider is a shadow of the prospect label he once was.

2009mvp
03-26-2012, 07:25 PM
Ugh, this forum has gone to hell. The point was their ages, nothing more, nothing less. I'm not trying to say Snider compares favorably to Delgado, but thanks for putting that in my mouth. And as far as adjusting, you're right, Snider never did adjust because every ****ing time he needed to he got booted back to Vegas instead.

And again, let's try facts. Snider's been far better against curveballs than he has against fastballs at the big league level.

Cooshman
03-26-2012, 07:25 PM
...which is why I've said numerous times that I'm OK with the decision. What I have a problem with is Blue Jay fans tearing Snider's game apart while completely ignoring the positives. Thames is a cool guy who could be an OK big league hitter, but realistically if one of the two is ever gonna be a starting OFer on a competitive team (and there's a pretty good chance neither do) it's Snider.

What I have a problem with is all the Blue Jays fans who insist that regardless of Thames being the more deserving player, that Snider should be starting over him.

Cooshman
03-26-2012, 07:27 PM
Ugh, this forum has gone to hell. The point was their ages, nothing more, nothing less. I'm not trying to say Snider compares favorably to Delgado, but thanks for putting that in my mouth. And as far as adjusting, you're right, Snider never did adjust because every ****ing time he needed to he got booted back to Vegas instead.

Right, because getting 240AB's, then another 300AB's, then another 200AB's is not enough time for Snider to adjust to major league hitting...

2009mvp
03-26-2012, 07:32 PM
:laugh2: Now you're just ****ing with me, right? Because getting back to those pesky little things called facts, in none of those three seasons were the 200+ AB's in one single consecutive stretch in the bigs, which is kinda exactly my point about not getting the opportunity to adjust.

Farsight
03-26-2012, 07:35 PM
Right, because getting 240AB's, then another 300AB's, then another 200AB's is not enough time for Snider to adjust to major league hitting... Not really, every time he has done bad, he has been sent down. How do you adjust/make adjustments to your swing and or approach when you keep on getting sent down when you go on a cold streak. How does Snider make big league adjustments against inferior minor league pitcher that he has destroy his whole career? Even when he was doing well in 2010, he had a freak injury, ending his season for the most part. Snider never had a full season of at bats where he could adjust, because he either A)got sent down to the minors after a bad stretch or B) got injured. Those 800 at bats are spread over 3 years, and for the most part he did pretty well, except for last year. He has never been given an opportunity to adjust which is what half of the board has been arguing, that is what 2009mvp has been arguing as well, he has never been given an opportunity to make adjustments

Nick O
03-26-2012, 07:38 PM
...which is why I've said numerous times that I'm OK with the decision. What I have a problem with is Blue Jay fans tearing Snider's game apart while completely ignoring the positives. Thames is a cool guy who could be an OK big league hitter, but realistically if one of the two is ever gonna be a starting OFer on a competitive team (and there's a pretty good chance neither do) it's Snider.

And how do you know that? .. the only reason people dont see potential in thames was because scouts werent all over his dick. The guy has solid speed and certainly proved he has the potential to be a good hitter both for power and for average.. and the people who ripped his D his routes were poor not his glove.. that can be fixed. I dont see any reason to think Thames cant be succesful

Cooshman
03-26-2012, 07:39 PM
Not really, every time he has done bad, he has been sent down. How do you adjust/make adjustments to your swing and or approach when you keep on getting sent down when you go on a cold streak. How does Snider make big league adjustments against inferior minor league pitcher that he has destroy his whole career? Even when he was doing well in 2010, he had a freak injury, ending his season for the most part. Snider never had a full season of at bats where he could adjust, because he either A)got sent down to the minors after a bad stretch or B) got injured. Those 800 at bats are spread over 3 years, and for the most part he did pretty well, except for last year. He has never been given an opportunity to adjust

The problem is that he has no spot to play....simply because he has been outplayed by Thames. Snider will get another shot at some point - I am just not holding my breath that he will be able to do anything with it.

2009mvp
03-26-2012, 07:46 PM
And how do you know that? .. the only reason people dont see potential in thames was because scouts werent all over his dick. The guy has solid speed and certainly proved he has the potential to be a good hitter both for power and for average.. and the people who ripped his D his routes were poor not his glove.. that can be fixed. I dont see any reason to think Thames cant be succesful

They still aren't. For a reason (well, numerous reasons).

Farsight
03-26-2012, 07:49 PM
The problem is that he has no spot to play....simply because he has been outplayed by Thames. Snider will get another shot at some point - I am just not holding my breath that he will be able to do anything with it.Im not the biggest thames supporter, but how is 200 AB showing that he outplayed Snider, when Snider had close to 800 or so at bats. Thames sample size is really small. Look at Alex Gonzales in 2010, he looked like a really good SS with toronto, after he got traded, he reverted back to his old self (my point is you need a large enough sample to judge someones skill, as players tend to have streaks throughout the season) In baseball, many scouts/analysis say that you needr 000 AB or 2 years worth of data to fully analyze a player and their attributes. With Snider, its hard to judge as he was never given enough At bats in the majors to get an appreciation of his skills, so if i was a scout, to give him a proper analysis, he deserves atleast another 600-1000 AB with the promise of not being demoted when he has a cold streak

Twitchy
03-26-2012, 07:58 PM
It's really not that complicated.

Thames is a solid player. We're all rooting for him. Really. But he's a lousy defender. I like the guy a lot. I'm a supporter of his. Probably won't sound like it in this post, but I was the guy with the Thames sig saying I believe in him before the 2011 season started. When half the people here wouldn't have even known who he was. But let's not pretend he's ever going to be a good defender.

Now, what Thames did last year, that's no different than what Snider did in his first 3 seasons. Pretending that's not the case is simply being ignorant. There's no way around the fact that Snider posted a 760-770 OPS between 2008-2010 in limited, sporadic play time. No different than the 760-770 OPS Thames did in 2011. And the funny thing is, when Snider did that everbody said he was a bust who didn't deserve to start. And yet Thames, when putting up the same numbers that Snider did over that time, somehow has better job security than Prince Fielder.

So why is Thames Mr. Popular? Because he's the underdog. He was the guy nobody scouted. He wasn't the first round pick. So when Snider doesn't set the world on fire like Lawrie did, he's a bust for putting up a 760-770 OPS. But when Thames puts up an identical 760-770 OPS to what Snider did, he's hailed as this great starter because nobody saw him coming.

It's just a matter of perception. Snider's first 3 call ups were a 760-770 OPS and he's considered a bust. Thames first trial run was a 760-770 OPS and he's considered a legit starter. Earlier in the thread someone said Snider wasn't a power bat, yet in the 2010 season he was on pace for 25+ HR and Thames was on pace for 18 in 2011.

The fact that Snider was more impressive at a young age is meaningful. He wasn't given an extended trial run to build off of this, but making the majors at an earlier age is always a good thing. Why is Anthony Gose a legit prospect but not Mastro? Because Gose is putting up good numbers as a 20 year old and Mastro is 25/26 in AAA. This isn't complicated stuff, guys. Age relative to league is always, always important. Saying otherwise is like saying it's better to drink polluted water. It's nonsense.

At the end of the day, Snider's the better prospect, and realistically the better player. For all of you wanna-be scouts who think that Thames is better than Snider, every talent evaluator worth his salt will tell you Snider is better. It's not the end of the world he was demoted, and Thames should have a good season. But let's stop arguing this nonsense about Thames being significantly better than Snider ever was, because it's just not the case.

Nick O
03-26-2012, 08:00 PM
They still aren't. For a reason (well, numerous reasons).

right but hes still doing better than Snider.. and the only reason people see potential in SNider now is because at one point a couple years ago Scouts said he was going to be good... but I dont see where this comes from.. hes done nothing really to show me he can be as good as people say

Farsight
03-26-2012, 08:06 PM
It's really not that complicated.

Thames is a solid player. We're all rooting for him. Really. But he's a lousy defender. I like the guy a lot. I'm a supporter of his. Probably won't sound like it in this post, but I was the guy with the Thames sig saying I believe in him before the 2011 season started. When half the people here wouldn't have even known who he was. But let's not pretend he's ever going to be a good defender.

Now, what Thames did last year, that's no different than what Snider did in his first 3 seasons. Pretending that's not the case is simply being ignorant. There's no way around the fact that Snider posted a 760-770 OPS between 2008-2010 in limited, sporadic play time. No different than the 760-770 OPS Thames did in 2011. And the funny thing is, when Snider did that everbody said he was a bust who didn't deserve to start. And yet Thames, when putting up the same numbers that Snider did over that time, somehow has better job security than Prince Fielder.

So why is Thames Mr. Popular? Because he's the underdog. He was the guy nobody scouted. He wasn't the first round pick. So when Snider doesn't set the world on fire like Lawrie did, he's a bust for putting up a 760-770 OPS. But when Thames puts up an identical 760-770 OPS to what Snider did, he's hailed as this great starter because nobody saw him coming.

It's just a matter of perception. Snider's first 3 call ups were a 760-770 OPS and he's considered a bust. Thames first trial run was a 760-770 OPS and he's considered a legit starter. Earlier in the thread someone said Snider wasn't a power bat, yet in the 2010 season he was on pace for 25+ HR and Thames was on pace for 18 in 2011.

The fact that Snider was more impressive at a young age is meaningful. He wasn't given an extended trial run to build off of this, but making the majors at an earlier age is always a good thing. Why is Anthony Gose a legit prospect but not Mastro? Because Gose is putting up good numbers as a 20 year old and Mastro is 25/26 in AAA. This isn't complicated stuff, guys. Age relative to league is always, always important. Saying otherwise is like saying it's better to drink polluted water. It's nonsense.

At the end of the day, Snider's the better prospect, and realistically the better player. For all of you wanna-be scouts who think that Thames is better than Snider, every talent evaluator worth his salt will tell you Snider is better. It's not the end of the world he was demoted, and Thames should have a good season. But let's stop arguing this nonsense about Thames being significantly better than Snider ever was, because it's just not the case. Thats well said. I've come off throughout this forum as a person who is not the biggest Thames supporter and that is partially true. I like him, but i would rather see him as a DH, as his defensive capabilities really hinder him. For me, an ideal line up would be Snider LF, Thames DH, Encarnacion 1B. If we see Lind struggle early on, that seems like a real possibility

2009mvp
03-26-2012, 08:15 PM
right but hes still doing better than Snider.. and the only reason people see potential in SNider now is because at one point a couple years ago Scouts said he was going to be good... but I dont see where this comes from.. hes done nothing really to show me he can be as good as people say

...and, as twitchy pointed out, him doing what Thames did last year as a 20-22 year old.

wagnall
03-26-2012, 08:31 PM
...and, as twitchy pointed out, him doing what Thames did last year as a 20-22 year old.

I agree, but Sniders not 20 anymore. He just has been around for so long that it seems he's 26 or 27 already. I am one who likes Thames, even though his D is questionable, maybe its just that infectious personality that this guy brings to the team,
BUT I am also 1 who said give Snider to the TD, if he couldn't put it together in 100+ games 400+ bats then do something else. Thames would still be around. But on a side note, I remember when LoMo's name came up, it was like get him, he's awesome. But frankly I have watched this guy in LF being here, and his D is worse than Thames, yet they see him as a potential star. :)

Farsight
03-26-2012, 08:59 PM
I agree, but Sniders not 20 anymore. He just has been around for so long that it seems he's 26 or 27 already. I am one who likes Thames, even though his D is questionable, maybe its just that infectious personality that this guy brings to the team,
BUT I am also 1 who said give Snider to the TD, if he couldn't put it together in 100+ games 400+ bats then do something else. Thames would still be around. But on a side note, I remember when LoMo's name came up, it was like get him, he's awesome. But frankly I have watched this guy in LF being here, and his D is worse than Thames, yet they see him as a potential star. :) I wanted LoMo but as a first basemen, not an outfielder. He is a horrible outfielder defensively

Cooshman
03-26-2012, 09:02 PM
It's really not that complicated.

Thames is a solid player. We're all rooting for him. Really. But he's a lousy defender. I like the guy a lot. I'm a supporter of his. Probably won't sound like it in this post, but I was the guy with the Thames sig saying I believe in him before the 2011 season started. When half the people here wouldn't have even known who he was. But let's not pretend he's ever going to be a good defender.

Now, what Thames did last year, that's no different than what Snider did in his first 3 seasons. Pretending that's not the case is simply being ignorant. There's no way around the fact that Snider posted a 760-770 OPS between 2008-2010 in limited, sporadic play time. No different than the 760-770 OPS Thames did in 2011. And the funny thing is, when Snider did that everbody said he was a bust who didn't deserve to start. And yet Thames, when putting up the same numbers that Snider did over that time, somehow has better job security than Prince Fielder.

So why is Thames Mr. Popular? Because he's the underdog. He was the guy nobody scouted. He wasn't the first round pick. So when Snider doesn't set the world on fire like Lawrie did, he's a bust for putting up a 760-770 OPS. But when Thames puts up an identical 760-770 OPS to what Snider did, he's hailed as this great starter because nobody saw him coming.

It's just a matter of perception. Snider's first 3 call ups were a 760-770 OPS and he's considered a bust. Thames first trial run was a 760-770 OPS and he's considered a legit starter. Earlier in the thread someone said Snider wasn't a power bat, yet in the 2010 season he was on pace for 25+ HR and Thames was on pace for 18 in 2011.

The fact that Snider was more impressive at a young age is meaningful. He wasn't given an extended trial run to build off of this, but making the majors at an earlier age is always a good thing. Why is Anthony Gose a legit prospect but not Mastro? Because Gose is putting up good numbers as a 20 year old and Mastro is 25/26 in AAA. This isn't complicated stuff, guys. Age relative to league is always, always important. Saying otherwise is like saying it's better to drink polluted water. It's nonsense.

At the end of the day, Snider's the better prospect, and realistically the better player. For all of you wanna-be scouts who think that Thames is better than Snider, every talent evaluator worth his salt will tell you Snider is better. It's not the end of the world he was demoted, and Thames should have a good season. But let's stop arguing this nonsense about Thames being significantly better than Snider ever was, because it's just not the case.

First off, as of the 2011 season, Thames it the better offensive player and that is why the "wanna-be scouts" employed by Rogers to make the REAL decisions chose Thames over Snider.
Secondly, I think it would be more accurate to say that Snider has a higher ceiling then Thames but as of right now, Thames is the player that has shown he can presently hit major league pitching while Snider regressed bigtime in 2011 and has done nothing to take the job away from Thames.

So until Thames slumps or someone gets injured, the situation in Toronto is exactly how it should be - Thames on the Jays in LF and Snider waiting for his turn in Las Vegas.

Farsight
03-26-2012, 09:18 PM
First off, as of the 2011 season, Thames it the better offensive player and that is why the "wanna-be scouts" employed by Rogers to make the REAL decisions chose Thames over Snider.
Secondly, I think it would be more accurate to say that Snider has a higher ceiling then Thames but as of right now, Thames is the player that has shown he can presently hit major league pitching while Snider regressed bigtime in 2011 and has done nothing to take the job away from Thames.

So until Thames slumps or someone gets injured, the situation in Toronto is exactly how it should be - Thames on the Jays in LF and Snider waiting for his turn in Las Vegas. How does 200 AB show that he can hit major league pitching. In 600 AB, from the age of 20-22, Snider performed like Thames did at a younger act, that is fact. Thames has 200 AB in the major and you are proclaiming that he is better than Snider, even though Snider did what he did through 600 AB's before he had his horrendous 2011 stint. Im not sure why you are ignoring that. 200 AB is not big time regression, its called a slump, who is to say for the next 300-400 AB's Snider does hit 320/370/460 in the next 3 months of baseball... 200 AB is to short of a time to deduce anything, other than that player had a good few months of baseball. If he consistently does it over a prolonged period of time, that is a different story

Cooshman
03-26-2012, 09:45 PM
How does 200 AB show that he can hit major league pitching. In 600 AB, from the age of 20-22, Snider performed like Thames did at a younger act, that is fact. Thames has 200 AB in the major and you are proclaiming that he is better than Snider, even though Snider did what he did through 600 AB's before he had his horrendous 2011 stint. Im not sure why you are ignoring that. 200 AB is not big time regression, its called a slump, who is to say for the next 300-400 AB's Snider does hit 320/370/460 in the next 3 months of baseball... 200 AB is to short of a time to deduce anything, other than that player had a good few months of baseball. If he consistently does it over a prolonged period of time, that is a different story

What are you talking about???
First off, Thames had nearly 400AB's last year (not 200)...
Second off, I have already said (too many times) that Thames deserves the job based on last year and Snider has done nothing to take that away from him as of right now. This may change but as of right now Thames deserves to be where he is and Snider deserves to be where he is.

Farsight
03-26-2012, 09:50 PM
What are you talking about???
First off, Thames had nearly 400AB's last year (not 200)...
Second off, I have already said (too many times) that Thames deserves the job based on last year and Snider has done nothing to take that away from him as of right now. This may change but as of right now Thames deserves to be where he is and Snider deserves to be where he is. Sorry that was my bad, i was looking at Sniders at bats, you are correct about 400 AB's that my mistake. Im not denying that Thames did decently in his time in the majors, however, 400 AB, is still half of 800. And what Thames posted as a 25 year old, is what Snider posted as a 20-22 year, which was a lot more impressive. But Snider only had 200 bad AB's, which was his 2011 campaign, and you cant really deduce anything from that to be honest. If Thames has a bad streak of 200 AB's this season, should he deserve the same treatment as Snider and get sent down when he struggles? because that is exactly what happened to Snider... Other than those 200 bad at bats, Snider performed really well. If you want to manage both players well, you let them play through their struggles.Thames will start left field, deservedly/undeservedly, no one is questioning that

Twitchy
03-26-2012, 10:08 PM
First off, as of the 2011 season, Thames it the better offensive player and that is why the "wanna-be scouts" employed by Rogers to make the REAL decisions chose Thames over Snider.

Jose Molina had a higher OPS than Adam Lind last year - does that mean that you want Molina as your starting first baseman? Or that Molina is the better offensive player?

That's the kind of logic you're using. Molina's 757 OPS > Lind's 734 OPS, so that means that going forward Molina must be the better player, right?

Here's a little hint for you. If you rolled your eyes and said that Lind is the better player, it means you just agreed with me that maybe we shouldn't evaluate guys based on one year. And that maybe, we should look at their entire careers, which would point to Snider being the better player.

But hey, if you want to argue that Molina is a better offensive player than Lind, then by all means.


Secondly, I think it would be more accurate to say that Snider has a higher ceiling then Thames but as of right now, Thames is the player that has shown he can presently hit major league pitching while Snider regressed bigtime in 2011 and has done nothing to take the job away from Thames.

Thames hasn't shown he can hit major league pitching any better than Snider. He's shown he can hit to Snider's average season. And FYI, Snider out hit Thames in spring training by a fair margin. Which would disprove your argument that he's done "nothing to take the job away from Thames". A job, that Thames really didn't do that much to earn. Unless of course, you'd like to argue that between 2009-2011 Snider should have been the starting left fielder heading into each season. And I don't see you rushing to make that argument.

While the OPS are fairly close during ST, you'll recall that Keith Law and several others pointed out that a couple of Thames "doubles" were bloop hits. So Thames slugging is actually not as impressive as it looks. Snider did strike out more, but he also hit for significantly more power, and did a better job of getting on base. In the long run, that's more productive.


So until Thames slumps or someone gets injured, the situation in Toronto is exactly how it should be - Thames on the Jays in LF and Snider waiting for his turn in Las Vegas.

So you've admitted that Snider has more upside, and it's been pointed out to you that Snider has actually done more to earn the LF job than Thames. And yet still, you're trying to argue that Snider (the better player, in your own words) deserves to be banished to the minor leagues? That doesn't make any sense.

fatkev78
03-26-2012, 10:49 PM
I should start by saying Snider is probably my favourite player.
To everyone pointing out his stats from 2+ years ago are missing the elephant in the room....his one handed waving swing he's developed over the past couple years.
I have no problem with him working on his swing in the minors until he gets in right, while in the meantime Thames hopefully performs well and raises his value for a potential trade (or replace Edwin or Lind should either of them struggle).

Cooshman
03-26-2012, 11:25 PM
Jose Molina had a higher OPS than Adam Lind last year - does that mean that you want Molina as your starting first baseman? Or that Molina is the better offensive player?

That's the kind of logic you're using. Molina's 757 OPS > Lind's 734 OPS, so that means that going forward Molina must be the better player, right?

Here's a little hint for you. If you rolled your eyes and said that Lind is the better player, it means you just agreed with me that maybe we shouldn't evaluate guys based on one year. And that maybe, we should look at their entire careers, which would point to Snider being the better player.

But hey, if you want to argue that Molina is a better offensive player than Lind, then by all means.



Thames hasn't shown he can hit major league pitching any better than Snider. He's shown he can hit to Snider's average season. And FYI, Snider out hit Thames in spring training by a fair margin. Which would disprove your argument that he's done "nothing to take the job away from Thames". A job, that Thames really didn't do that much to earn. Unless of course, you'd like to argue that between 2009-2011 Snider should have been the starting left fielder heading into each season. And I don't see you rushing to make that argument.

While the OPS are fairly close during ST, you'll recall that Keith Law and several others pointed out that a couple of Thames "doubles" were bloop hits. So Thames slugging is actually not as impressive as it looks. Snider did strike out more, but he also hit for significantly more power, and did a better job of getting on base. In the long run, that's more productive.



So you've admitted that Snider has more upside, and it's been pointed out to you that Snider has actually done more to earn the LF job than Thames. And yet still, you're trying to argue that Snider (the better player, in your own words) deserves to be banished to the minor leagues? That doesn't make any sense.

I don't know if I have ever seen one post that was so wrong!!! This response should get an award for being the most ridiculous post ever made on PSD!!! There are so many idiotic points made, starting with the Lind/Molina vs. Thames/Snider comparisons, moving on to the Thames best year is Sniders average year, followed by Snider was the better player this spring (Yeah, we all know he mashes minor league pitchers and yet he still struck out more then 1 in every 3 AB's!!! But of course he'll do better against major league pitchers), and last the comment that it's been pointed out Snider has done more to earn the LF job over Thames, which he has not of course, mixed with bogus facts like "the better player, in your own words" which I never said - I said he has a higher ceiling, which does not mean he is currently the better player......
I spent way too much time replying to possibly the most inaccurate posting ever made on this website!!!

Cooshman
03-26-2012, 11:27 PM
I should start by saying Snider is probably my favourite player.
To everyone pointing out his stats from 2+ years ago are missing the elephant in the room....his one handed waving swing he's developed over the past couple years.
I have no problem with him working on his swing in the minors until he gets in right, while in the meantime Thames hopefully performs well and raises his value for a potential trade (or replace Edwin or Lind should either of them struggle).

Fatkev, I don't think I agree with you on many issues, but I agree with you 100% on this post. Everything thing you have said is spot on.

Farsight
03-26-2012, 11:58 PM
I don't know if I have ever seen one post that was so wrong!!! This response should get an award for being the most ridiculous post ever made on PSD!!! There are so many idiotic points made, starting with the Lind/Molina vs. Thames/Snider comparisons, moving on to the Thames best year is Sniders average year, followed by Snider was the better player this spring (Yeah, we all know he mashes minor league pitchers and yet he still struck out more then 1 in every 3 AB's!!! But of course he'll do better against major league pitchers), and last the comment that it's been pointed out Snider has done more to earn the LF job over Thames, which he has not of course, mixed with bogus facts like "the better player, in your own words" which I never said - I said he has a higher ceiling, which does not mean he is currently the better player......
I spent way too much time replying to possibly the most inaccurate posting ever made on this website!!! lol, ignorance is bliss. You are refuting and dodging peoples arguments, which for the most part are sound and backed up by facts, as it does not suit your arguments. You also continue to refrain to insults as you dont not have any rebuttle to some peoples arguements.

Twitchy's Molina/Lind comparison was actually pretty good. He used your logic to show that it was flawed, as last year Molina was obviously as he was better at creating more runs when he was at bat, thus resulting in a better OPS (OPS is a better offensive stat than batting average, as it shows who was better at creating runs, which is goal as an offensive player). With his example, he was trying to show that your argument was flawed, he was trying to SHOW that you should judge someones whole body of work (minor leagues and majors) to get a good picture of how they are, instead of a small sample size, which you are doing with your Snider/Thames comparison

ah nuts
03-27-2012, 12:29 AM
First off, as of the 2011 season, Thames it the better offensive player and that is why the "wanna-be scouts" employed by Rogers to make the REAL decisions chose Thames over Snider.
.

I don't agree.

the above decision was made for 2 reasons IMO:

1) give snider a mental break, give the kid time to relax and find himself. A lot was thrown at him last year.
2) to have another look at Thames with MLB pitching

before hailing Thames as the "better" offensive choice. Remember Thames hit in front of Bautista and had an awful-awful September to end the year.

nithanyo
03-27-2012, 02:05 AM
...and, as twitchy pointed out, him doing what Thames did last year as a 20-22 year old.

So what? Lind did something as a 26 year old and he can't seem to repeat.

Bautista can't do what he does now as a 27 year old.


Just look at dustin mcgowan. He probably has the same amount of professional innings pitched as Ricky Romero but Mcgowan is 3 years older.

You can't just say "player X hit well as a 20 year old so he is better than player Y who put up similar numbers at 25 so player X is the better player"

Thames blew out his knee his last year of college and was already behind the curb, hence the late development.

You guys put waaayy too much stock in a players age. Every player ages differently. some come into their prime as a 20 year old, some at 25 and some at 30.

Snider may come into his own but none knows. same can be said for Thames. but this is a "what have you done for me lately?" kind of business. Lately Thames has done better for the team.

nithanyo
03-27-2012, 02:27 AM
Jose Molina had a higher OPS than Adam Lind last year - does that mean that you want Molina as your starting first baseman? Or that Molina is the better offensive player?

That's the kind of logic you're using. Molina's 757 OPS > Lind's 734 OPS, so that means that going forward Molina must be the better player, right?


Well if Molina could post that through a 162 game schedule, along with a decent BA. and power why not? You're comparing Molinas 175 Ab's with Linds 500. :facepalm:


Here's a little hint for you. If you rolled your eyes and said that Lind is the better player, it means you just agreed with me that maybe we shouldn't evaluate guys based on one year. And that maybe, we should look at their entire careers, which would point to Snider being the better player.

We gave bautista a huge contract after 1 season. We thought Aaron hill was the 2B of the future and Adam Lind was the 1B of the future after one season. Just look at my above post. Every player is different.

Its really hard to judge talent. AA is a smart GM and he chose to stick with Thames while demote Snider. So I'm thinking he knows what he is doing




Thames hasn't shown he can hit major league pitching any better than Snider. He's shown he can hit to Snider's average season. And FYI, Snider out hit Thames in spring training by a fair margin. Which would disprove your argument that he's done "nothing to take the job away from Thames". A job, that Thames really didn't do that much to earn. Unless of course, you'd like to argue that between 2009-2011 Snider should have been the starting left fielder heading into each season. And I don't see you rushing to make that argument.


Thames held a higher batting average, OPS and in 2011 than in any of Sniders season(except the minuscule 27 games of 2009).
I don't want to put too much emphasis on ST numbers but in no way was Snider out hitting Thames by "a fair margin".Thames was hitting .350 when Snider was sent down hitting .271. You can argue Hr's but Rajai Davis hit 4 Hr's last spring too. Again ST numbers mean jack **** to me
.

While the OPS are fairly close during ST, you'll recall that Keith Law and several others pointed out that a couple of Thames "doubles" were bloop hits. So Thames slugging is actually not as impressive as it looks. Snider did strike out more, but he also hit for significantly more power, and did a better job of getting on base. In the long run, that's more productive.

Lol again. Rajai Davis hit 4 last season. Gabe Gross hit 8 in 2005.(he didn't have his first ML one until September)

No stock in spring training numbers. Pitchers don't even throw breaking balls until 2 weeks into ST.

AND i have yet to see a "bloop" hit double in all my years of watching baseball.


So you've admitted that Snider has more upside, and it's been pointed out to you that Snider has actually done more to earn the LF job than Thames. And yet still, you're trying to argue that Snider (the better player, in your own words) deserves to be banished to the minor leagues? That doesn't make any sense.


Where does he say Snider has more upside? I don't see it. However he is right. If Lind, Thames or EE where to struggle/ get hurt then Snider is next in the depth chart for DH/LF.

Farsight
03-27-2012, 02:40 AM
So what? Lind did something as a 26 year old and he can't seem to repeat.

Bautista can't do what he does now as a 27 year old.


Just look at dustin mcgowan. He probably has the same amount of professional innings pitched as Ricky Romero but Mcgowan is 3 years older.

You can't just say "player X hit well as a 20 year old so he is better than player Y who put up similar numbers at 25 so player X is the better player"

Thames blew out his knee his last year of college and was already behind the curb, hence the late development.

You guys put waaayy too much stock in a players age. Every player ages differently. some come into their prime as a 20 year old, some at 25 and some at 30.

Snider may come into his own but none knows. same can be said for Thames. but this is a "what have you done for me lately?" kind of business. Lately Thames has done better for the team. If you look at it that way, Rasmus, Johnson, Lind, JPA really have no business starting as they were all pretty atrocious last year. However, if you look at their careers as a whole, you would see that Johnson and Rasmus actually have performed above average throughout their careers. As Twitchy was saying, you have to look at their whole body of work in the minors and the majors(atleast within a reasonable amount of time). Last year Snider had 200 AB, he was horrible, no one is denying that, but if you look throughout his career he was actually doing what Thames did at a much younger age. If 200 AB defines a young players career, than many players deserve to be on the sidelines, such as Jason Heyward. With that logic, he should not be starting with Atlanta as he was pretty bad last year... However, im sure almost everyone would argue that he will more than likely return back to his 2010 form (all star calibre outfielder) throughout his career.


Thames held a higher batting average, OPS and in 2011 than in any of Sniders season(except the minuscule 27 games of 2009).
I don't want to put too much emphasis on ST numbers but in no way was Snider out hitting Thames by "a fair margin".Thames was hitting .350 when Snider was sent down hitting .271. You can argue Hr's but Rajai Davis hit 4 Hr's last spring too. Again ST numbers mean jack **** to me
. Well actually, you might want to look at Sniders and Thames wOBA (which is a lot better indicator of their capabilities to produce runs) So far in Sniders career he posted a wOBA in 2008- 345, 2009- 327, 2010- 331, 2011 - 276, and Thames has posted a wOBA of 333 in his first year. The only season that Thames has really outproduced Snider offensively is 2011, as in every other year they were separated by a few points. If you were to ask me, whats more impressive, a 20-22 year old posting a wOBA of 330, or a 25 year old posting a wOBA of 330, i would take the 20-22 year old every single time, even knowing he had a horrible 2011. And once you say that the 20-22 year old is an above average defensive player, and the 25 year old is a pretty well below average defender, i would take the 20-22 year old giddy like a little girl... That is why Twitchy and others have been saying, its important to look at their body of work instead of a third of a year or a half of a year

Twitchy
03-27-2012, 07:02 AM
So what? Lind did something as a 26 year old and he can't seem to repeat.

The point is that players who are called up around age 20-21 (like Lawrie) are more likely to be star players than guys who debut when they are 24 (like Thames). This isn't a new concept.


Bautista can't do what he does now as a 27 year old.

Way to pick the exception. Bautista doesn't fit into any conventional story, but then how many Jose Bautista types are there? Maybe one or two players in over a 120 years of baseball.


You can't just say "player X hit well as a 20 year old so he is better than player Y who put up similar numbers at 25 so player X is the better player"


Guys who are playing in the majors at age 20 generally end up being better than guys who are in the minor leagues at age 20. There are always going to be exceptions. But more often than not, guys like Justin Upton, Albert Pujols, Felix Hernandez, Ken Griffey Jr, Alex Rodriguez and all the other guys are get called up at age 19-21 tend to be better than guys who are called up at age 24.

Yes, there are some exceptions. The vast majority of the time though? Absolutely.


Thames blew out his knee his last year of college and was already behind the curb, hence the late development.


Everybody knows Thames had injury problems. Nobody said there weren't exceptions to the rule. Doesn't change the fact that Snider playing against major league competition at age 20 while Thames was playing against college teams makes Snider's achievements more impressive. Just like Lawrie's achievements are more important than Thames for the same reason.


You guys put waaayy too much stock in a players age. Every player ages differently. some come into their prime as a 20 year old, some at 25 and some at 30.


And typically the guys who come up as a 20 year old are better than the guys who come up at 25. And the guys who come out at 30 are extremely rare.

This isn't an opinion here. It's a fact. It's like trying to argue that a guy with a 250 BA is a better hitter for average than a guy with a 300 BA. You can disagree with the facts all you like, but it doesn't change the fact that the majority of the time, guys who debut at a young age end up being much better players than guys who come up at age 24-26.


Snider may come into his own but none knows. same can be said for Thames. but this is a "what have you done for me lately?" kind of business. Lately Thames has done better for the team.

I don't think anybody is disputing that Thames had a better season. But the guys in the front office are being paid to see past 300 at bats.


Well if Molina could post that through a 162 game schedule, along with a decent BA. and power why not? You're comparing Molinas 175 Ab's with Linds 500. :facepalm:

The irony of this post, is that the argument I made here is the same one you just made about Thames/Snider. Funny how you seem to understand small sample size and things like that when it doesn't suit your argument.

Yes, obviously Lind is the better player going forward. And yes, Lind had more plate appearances. But isn't it interesting, that you were able to see that Lind is the better player, despite the inferior season? You could almost say the same thing about, I don't know, Thames and Snider? Despite Thames having the better season (with more AB's), we can all recognize that Snider has hit equally well, or even better than Thames in the past. And we all better be able to recognize that Snider was much better in the minor leagues, and has more upside.

Intentionally or not, by arguing that Lind should play over Molina, you're saying that Snider should bat over Thames. Thus, proving my point.


Its really hard to judge talent. AA is a smart GM and he chose to stick with Thames while demote Snider. So I'm thinking he knows what he is doing


He also chose to stick with Jo-Jo Reyes for 20 starts and 100+ innings. Which means he's not perfect, either. Let's not act like he is.


Thames held a higher batting average, OPS and in 2011 than in any of Sniders season(except the minuscule 27 games of 2009).

Or, you know, equal to Snider's 767 OPS in 2010. And quite similar to a 748. Or, if we, you know, average the 3 seasons, it comes out to a 764 OPS. Which is exactly the same as Thames 769 OPS.

But you were saying?


I don't want to put too much emphasis on ST numbers but in no way was Snider out hitting Thames by "a fair margin".Thames was hitting .350 when Snider was sent down hitting .271. You can argue Hr's but Rajai Davis hit 4 Hr's last spring too. Again ST numbers mean jack **** to me

Except it's been pointed out by people who watch the games that Snider was actually driving the ball (thus getting legit HR and hitting for power) while Thames was getting a lot of bloop hits. Line drives are what you want to see players hit. So Thames hitting line looks a lot stronger on paper than it actually is.

Regardless of their batting average (and really, given that it's not 1960 who cares about BA?), Snider's 965 OPS was much better than Thames 891. And not that I care, but Snider had way more RBI.


AND i have yet to see a "bloop" hit double in all my years of watching baseball.


Well then, you don't watch nearly as much baseball as you think you do. I googled bloop double and got a link for a guy ironically who hit one after Eric Thames got walked. Here's the link (http://www.bluebirdbanter.com/2012/3/16/2878738/the-battle-for-left-field-eric-thames-and-travis-snider):


Eric Thames: In the past week Thames has had 13 at bats, 5 hits, 2 doubles, 3 RBI, 2 walks, 3 strikeouts and a steal. Keith Law tells us that his 2 hits from Yesterday's game were a bit suspect:

The official scorer apparently felt like giving out hits as gifts on Thursday, as Eric Thames reached twice on botched plays in the outfield.

Maybe bloop double is a strong word, but the defence screwed up, allowing Thames to get on base. It wasn't recorded an error like it should have been. Meaning Thames BA is higher as it should be - because as we all know an error doesn't count as a hit, and that would lower his BA.


Where does he say Snider has more upside? I don't see it.

Here.


Secondly, I think it would be more accurate to say that Snider has a higher ceiling then Thames but as of right now

He says it pretty straight forward. Snider has a higher ceiling.


However he is right. If Lind, Thames or EE where to struggle/ get hurt then Snider is next in the depth chart for DH/LF.

So a guy who's been one of the worst first baseman in the league, a guy who has been about as effective as Snider, and a DH with a 787 OPS is what's preventing a potential blue chip prospect from playing everyday in the majors?

You think any of those players should be blocking....anybody? Cause I don't. Not Lind, not EE, and not Thames.

Kenny Powders
03-27-2012, 07:46 AM
I would really like to see Snider given a shot in the two hole and see how he compares to Thames. Either way, if Thames starts off like he finished of last year, we will be seeing Snider sooner rather then later.

JaysFan87
03-27-2012, 07:50 AM
So what? Lind did something as a 26 year old and he can't seem to repeat.

Bautista can't do what he does now as a 27 year old.


Just look at dustin mcgowan. He probably has the same amount of professional innings pitched as Ricky Romero but Mcgowan is 3 years older.

You can't just say "player X hit well as a 20 year old so he is better than player Y who put up similar numbers at 25 so player X is the better player"

Thames blew out his knee his last year of college and was already behind the curb, hence the late development.

You guys put waaayy too much stock in a players age. Every player ages differently. some come into their prime as a 20 year old, some at 25 and some at 30.

Snider may come into his own but none knows. same can be said for Thames. but this is a "what have you done for me lately?" kind of business. Lately Thames has done better for the team.

And thats a terrible way to conduct business when trying to evaluate talent.

AA09-?
03-27-2012, 08:54 AM
I don't agree.

the above decision was made for 2 reasons IMO:

1) give snider a mental break, give the kid time to relax and find himself. A lot was thrown at him last year.
2) to have another look at Thames with MLB pitching

before hailing Thames as the "better" offensive choice. Remember Thames hit in front of Bautista and had an awful-awful September to end the year.

This is very true.

AA09-?
03-27-2012, 08:56 AM
So what? Lind did something as a 26 year old and he can't seem to repeat.

Bautista can't do what he does now as a 27 year old.


Just look at dustin mcgowan. He probably has the same amount of professional innings pitched as Ricky Romero but Mcgowan is 3 years older.

You can't just say "player X hit well as a 20 year old so he is better than player Y who put up similar numbers at 25 so player X is the better player"

Thames blew out his knee his last year of college and was already behind the curb, hence the late development.

You guys put waaayy too much stock in a players age. Every player ages differently. some come into their prime as a 20 year old, some at 25 and some at 30.

Snider may come into his own but none knows. same can be said for Thames. but this is a "what have you done for me lately?" kind of business. Lately Thames has done better for the team.

I think you mean, behind the curve.LOL

Cooshman
03-27-2012, 10:26 AM
The point is that players who are called up around age 20-21 (like Lawrie) are more likely to be star players than guys who debut when they are 24 (like Thames). This isn't a new concept.



Way to pick the exception. Bautista doesn't fit into any conventional story, but then how many Jose Bautista types are there? Maybe one or two players in over a 120 years of baseball.



Guys who are playing in the majors at age 20 generally end up being better than guys who are in the minor leagues at age 20. There are always going to be exceptions. But more often than not, guys like Justin Upton, Albert Pujols, Felix Hernandez, Ken Griffey Jr, Alex Rodriguez and all the other guys are get called up at age 19-21 tend to be better than guys who are called up at age 24.

Yes, there are some exceptions. The vast majority of the time though? Absolutely.



Everybody knows Thames had injury problems. Nobody said there weren't exceptions to the rule. Doesn't change the fact that Snider playing against major league competition at age 20 while Thames was playing against college teams makes Snider's achievements more impressive. Just like Lawrie's achievements are more important than Thames for the same reason.



And typically the guys who come up as a 20 year old are better than the guys who come up at 25. And the guys who come out at 30 are extremely rare.

This isn't an opinion here. It's a fact. It's like trying to argue that a guy with a 250 BA is a better hitter for average than a guy with a 300 BA. You can disagree with the facts all you like, but it doesn't change the fact that the majority of the time, guys who debut at a young age end up being much better players than guys who come up at age 24-26.



I don't think anybody is disputing that Thames had a better season. But the guys in the front office are being paid to see past 300 at bats.



The irony of this post, is that the argument I made here is the same one you just made about Thames/Snider. Funny how you seem to understand small sample size and things like that when it doesn't suit your argument.

Yes, obviously Lind is the better player going forward. And yes, Lind had more plate appearances. But isn't it interesting, that you were able to see that Lind is the better player, despite the inferior season? You could almost say the same thing about, I don't know, Thames and Snider? Despite Thames having the better season (with more AB's), we can all recognize that Snider has hit equally well, or even better than Thames in the past. And we all better be able to recognize that Snider was much better in the minor leagues, and has more upside.

Intentionally or not, by arguing that Lind should play over Molina, you're saying that Snider should bat over Thames. Thus, proving my point.



He also chose to stick with Jo-Jo Reyes for 20 starts and 100+ innings. Which means he's not perfect, either. Let's not act like he is.



Or, you know, equal to Snider's 767 OPS in 2010. And quite similar to a 748. Or, if we, you know, average the 3 seasons, it comes out to a 764 OPS. Which is exactly the same as Thames 769 OPS.

But you were saying?



Except it's been pointed out by people who watch the games that Snider was actually driving the ball (thus getting legit HR and hitting for power) while Thames was getting a lot of bloop hits. Line drives are what you want to see players hit. So Thames hitting line looks a lot stronger on paper than it actually is.

Regardless of their batting average (and really, given that it's not 1960 who cares about BA?), Snider's 965 OPS was much better than Thames 891. And not that I care, but Snider had way more RBI.



Well then, you don't watch nearly as much baseball as you think you do. I googled bloop double and got a link for a guy ironically who hit one after Eric Thames got walked. Here's the link (http://www.bluebirdbanter.com/2012/3/16/2878738/the-battle-for-left-field-eric-thames-and-travis-snider):



Maybe bloop double is a strong word, but the defence screwed up, allowing Thames to get on base. It wasn't recorded an error like it should have been. Meaning Thames BA is higher as it should be - because as we all know an error doesn't count as a hit, and that would lower his BA.



Here.



He says it pretty straight forward. Snider has a higher ceiling.



So a guy who's been one of the worst first baseman in the league, a guy who has been about as effective as Snider, and a DH with a 787 OPS is what's preventing a potential blue chip prospect from playing everyday in the majors?

You think any of those players should be blocking....anybody? Cause I don't. Not Lind, not EE, and not Thames.

I am pretty sure Nathanyo meant where do I say that "Snider is the better player". You posted that I said Snider is the better player and I never said that.....I said that Snider has the higher ceiling but right now Thames is the better player. So you basically stated something that I never said!!
Nathanyo was pointing this out but mistakingly pointed out the wrong part.

Farsight
03-27-2012, 10:38 AM
I am pretty sure Nathanyo meant where do I say that "Snider is the better player". You posted that I said Snider is the better player and I never said that.....I said that Snider has the higher ceiling but right now Thames is the better player. So you basically stated something that I never said!!
Nathanyo was pointing this out but mistakingly pointed out the wrong part. you keep on saying Thames is a better player after 400 AB in majors when everything is pointing otherwise. No one is denying the fact that Thames had a better 2011 stint, but to declare that Thames is outright better? Are you also forgetting about the defensive aspect as well, where a players Job is to save runs (which also ads to a players inherent value). If Snider post similar offensive numbers as Thames, his defense alone will make him the outright better player.

At this point in time, If major league scouts came out and said that Snider was a better player and provided you with a solid argument with objective stats, you would probably disagree with there analysis

Cooshman
03-27-2012, 11:10 AM
you keep on saying Thames is a better player after 400 AB in majors when everything is pointing otherwise. No one is denying the fact that Thames had a better 2011 stint, but to declare that Thames is outright better? Are you also forgetting about the defensive aspect as well, where a players Job is to save runs (which also ads to a players inherent value). If Snider post similar offensive numbers as Thames, his defense alone will make him the outright better player.

At this point in time, If major league scouts came out and said that Snider was a better player and provided you with a solid argument with objective stats, you would probably disagree with there analysis

I think that based on last year and this spring - that as of right now, Thames is the better player. I am unsure if Snider can rebound and meet his potential but as of this moment, Snider would be a complete disaster in the majors. No matter what spring training stats you point to, the glarring stat to me is 17K's in 48AB's against mostly minor league pitching. Thames is the right decision to start the season and Snider is exactly where he needs to be.

Farsight
03-27-2012, 11:25 AM
I think that based on last year and this spring - that as of right now, Thames is the better player. I am unsure if Snider can rebound and meet his potential but as of this moment, Snider would be a complete disaster in the majors. No matter what spring training stats you point to, the glarring stat to me is 17K's in 48AB's against mostly minor league pitching. Thames is the right decision to start the season and Snider is exactly where he needs to be. If you looked at their spring, Snider actually performed better, his OPS was about 70-80 points higher than Thames. Also he was hitting the ball hard, creating more line drives, thus getting "real" homeruns as twitchy pointed out (also you have to remember that more line drives= more home runs, and more extra base hits). Snider was creating more runs than Thames during spirng training, which is what the main objective of a hitter. So offensively this Spring, Snider was better... and that is really undebatable, and once you incorporate defense... its really hard to say that Snider was not better

Cooshman
03-27-2012, 11:40 AM
If you looked at their spring, Snider actually performed better, his OPS was about 70-80 points higher than Thames. Also he was hitting the ball hard, creating more line drives, thus getting "real" homeruns as twitchy pointed out (also you have to remember that more line drives= more home runs, and more extra base hits). Snider was creating more runs than Thames during spirng training, which is what the main objective of a hitter. So offensively this Spring, Snider was better... and that is really undebatable, and once you incorporate defense... its really hard to say that Snider was not better

There is no mistaking that Snider mashes minor league pitching, but he has a major flaw in his swing that major leaguers easily expose and is evident in his better then 1 in every 3 AB K's!!! This is not going improve when playing agains major leaguers, it is only going to destroy Sniders confidence even more so. He needs to work on his bat control and reduce his K's while waiting for his eventual callup (which is going to happen sooner then later).
Meanwhile, because we know that Snider hit's bombs off of minor leaguers let's look a little deeper at his avg. and OBP vs Thames this spring.

Snider - .271avg, .340OBP
Thames - .330avg, .380OBP

Even if you want to say that Sniders better other peripherals at least have them having an equally good ST, fine. But It was Thames job to lose and Thames did nothing lose that job and Snider didn't better Thames to take the job away from him.

LechWalesa
03-27-2012, 11:52 AM
My question is why was it Thames job to lose? It isn't like he pulled a Lawrie at the end of last season and set the world on fire. At best he was league average with awful defense. Also: remember how good Snider was in his first majors stint? It's pretty fool-hardy to base all of your decisions on half a season in a player's rookie year at 26.

Come on.

Farsight
03-27-2012, 12:02 PM
There is no mistaking that Snider mashes minor league pitching, but he has a major flaw in his swing that major leaguers easily expose and is evident in his better then 1 in every 3 AB K's!!! This is not going improve when playing agains major leaguers, it is only going to destroy Sniders confidence even more so. He needs to work on his bat control and reduce his K's while waiting for his eventual callup (which is going to happen sooner then later).
Meanwhile, because we know that Snider hit's bombs off of minor leaguers let's look a little deeper at his avg. and OBP vs Thames this spring.

Snider - .271avg, .340OBP
Thames - .330avg, .380OBP

Even if you want to say that Sniders better other peripherals at least have them having an equally good ST, fine. But It was Thames job to lose and Thames did nothing lose that job and Snider didn't better Thames to take the job away from him.

I love on base percentage, but you have to remember that a higher slugging percentage usually means that a player has an oppertunity to create more runs as his hits are going further, meaning that they will get more extra base hits, meaning that they have a better chance of scoring runners, and scoring as well as they are on 2nd base, 3rd base, or a home run. This is the goal of the hitter, to create more runs, thus producing more offense. OPS is a more inclusive stat than batting average, and OBP. A slap hitter such as Ichiro always had a high OBP, but due to the lack of power, for him to be as productive as a player who had a high slugging percentage, he would have to hit a lot of singles, and still he would not be as good as producing runs. OPS is a better indicator of a players value to a team as it incorporates both OBP and Slugging

I dont really know how you can deduce that Snider does not known how to hit major league pitching, even though he did what Thames did at a younger age for 600 AB, yet Thames, who only had 400 AB throughout his entire career is anointed by you as a player who can hit major league pitching... Im not sure about you, but that is quiet a double standard. As i said before, players young players will especially struggle, but you shouldnt make assumptions on such a short season.

As i mentioned before, look at Jason Heyward, he had a horrible 2012 season, yet that i can guarantee you that almost any major league front office will tell you he will be a really good player. Who is to say that other teams exploit Thames swing? Theres a reason why rookies usually go through sophmore slumps as other teams figure out their hole, and that player has to make adjustments,which Snider never had the time to make (as he got sent down). If you think Snider was bad last year, wait until this year when Pitchers figure out Thames swing and he struggles mighty

And lets be honest here, Thames never really earned the spot as he never set the world of fire like Lawrie , nor did he lose the spot as both Thames and Snider performed well this Spring. But just because he never earned or lost the spot, doesnt mean that he is the "better" player. The only reason i can see why Thames is starting is because he never earned the spot or loss it, while Snider performed poorly last year, so they feel obliged to give Thames the spot to see what he can do or to increase his trade value. Moreover, i think AA learned from the Snider situation that you should not screw around with a prospects/players development

Cooshman
03-27-2012, 12:09 PM
My question is why was it Thames job to lose? It isn't like he pulled a Lawrie at the end of last season and set the world on fire. At best he was league average with awful defense. Also: remember how good Snider was in his first majors stint? It's pretty fool-hardy to base all of your decisions on half a season in a player's rookie year at 26.

Come on.

First off, Thames was 24yrs old last year (not 26) and is 25 years and will be for the whole baseball season!!
Second off, if was Thames job to lose because he outperformed Snider considerably in almost every single offensive category.

I love how people trying to defend a player will resort to posting false information to try and prove their points - here he is aged 2yrs, in another Thames only had 200AB's last year, in another I said that Thames was a better player then Snider...etc..etc..etc...

All this false information is more revealing of Snider defender's biases rather then factual reasons as to why he should be starting over Thames!!

Kenny Powders
03-27-2012, 12:10 PM
My question is why was it Thames job to lose? It isn't like he pulled a Lawrie at the end of last season and set the world on fire. At best he was league average with awful defense. Also: remember how good Snider was in his first majors stint? It's pretty fool-hardy to base all of your decisions on half a season in a player's rookie year at 26.

Come on.

I agree 100 percent. I think, in the end, its to showcase Thames and package him in a deal for a starting pitcher.

Cooshman
03-27-2012, 12:18 PM
I love on base percentage, but you have to remember that a higher slugging percentage usually means that a player has an oppertunity to create more runs, which is the goal of the hitter. OPS is a more inclusive stat than batting average, and OBP. A slap hitter such as Ichiro always had a high OBP, but due to the lack of power, for him to be as productive as a player who had a high slugging percentage, he would have to hit a lot of singles, and still he would not be as good as producing runs. OPS is a better indicator of a players value to a team as it incorporates both OBP and Slugging

I dont really know how you can deduce that Snider does not known how to hit major league pitching, even though he did what Thames did at a younger age for 600 AB, yet Thames, who only had 400 AB throughout his entire career is anointed by you as a player who can hit major league pitching... Im not sure about you, but that is quiet a double standard. As i said before, players young players will especially struggle, but you shouldnt make assumptions on such a short season.

As i mentioned before, look at Jason Heyward, he had a horrible 2012 season, yet that i can guarantee you that almost any major league front office will tell you he will be a really good player. Who is to say that other teams exploit Thames swing? Theres a reason why rookies usually go through sophmore slumps as other teams figure out their hole, and that player has to make adjustments,which Snider never had the time to make (as he got sent down). If you think Snider was bad last year, wait until this year when Pitchers figure out Thames swing and he struggles mighty

And lets be honest here, Thames never really earned the spot as he never set the world of fire like Lawrie , nor did he lose the spot as both Thames and Snider performed well this Spring. But just because he never earned or lost the spot, doesnt mean that he is the "better" player. The only reason i can see why Thames is starting is because he never earned the spot or loss it, while Snider performed poorly last year, so they feel obliged to give Thames the spot to see what he can do or to increase his trade value. Moreover, i think AA learned from the Snider situation that you should not screw around with a prospects/players development

And i'll repeat, these boosted numbers are because he mashes minor league hitting who can't typcially throw more fastballs which Snider feasts on. In spring, Snider once again mashed minor league hitting boosting his SLG% and total bases.....these numbers would drop like a stone against full time AB's against major leaguers who won't through him a feast of fastballs...better then 1 in every 3AB K's in spring training against mosly minor leauge pitchers is a very troubling sign....which I imagine is what AA saw.

Farsight
03-27-2012, 12:21 PM
First off, Thames was 24yrs old last year (not 26) and is 25 years and will be for the whole baseball season!!
Second off, if was Thames job to lose because he outperformed Snider considerably in almost every single offensive category.

I love how people trying to defend a player will resort to posting false information to try and prove their points - here he is aged 2yrs, in another Thames only had 200AB's last year, in another I said that Thames was a better player then Snider...etc..etc..etc...

All this false information is more revealing of Snider defender's biases rather then factual reasons as to why he should be starting over Thames!! Yet i said i was wrong about the 200 AB, and said you were right about the 400AB's. 400AB is still a small sample size. You keep on ignoring facts that people present, and its obvious. I still have not seen one rebuttle from you that disputed the arguments presented to you by other people. This is really getting ridiculous, its not a hard concept to acknowledge, this really just shows me your lack of baseball knowledge more than anything else to be honest

Farsight
03-27-2012, 12:22 PM
And i'll repeat, these boosted numbers are because he mashes minor league hitting who can't typcially throw more fastballs which Snider feasts on. In spring, Snider once again mashed minor league hitting boosting his SLG% and total bases.....these numbers would drop like a stone against full time AB's against major leaguers who won't through him a feast of fastballs...better then 1 in every 3AB K's in spring training against mosly minor leauge pitchers is a very troubling sign....which I imagine is what AA saw. And what about his OPS of 750 that he posted in the majors? the same that thames posted? still against minor league pitching?

Cooshman
03-27-2012, 12:22 PM
I agree 100 percent. I think, in the end, its to showcase Thames and package him in a deal for a starting pitcher.

You agree 100% even though at least some of his information is false...pretty funny!!
How old was Thames in his rookie season, how old is he now and how old did LechWalesa claim he was in his rookie season?
And you agree 100%?? LOL :clap::clap:

Cooshman
03-27-2012, 12:23 PM
Yet i said i was wrong about the 200 AB, and said you were right about the 400AB's. 400AB is still a small sample size. You keep on ignoring facts that people present, and its obvious. I still have not seen one rebuttle from you that disputed the arguments presented to you by other people. This is really getting ridiculous, its not a hard concept to acknowledge, this really just shows me your lack of baseball knowledge more than anything else to be honest

What exactly have I not acknowledged???

Kenny Powders
03-27-2012, 12:27 PM
And i'll repeat, these boosted numbers are because he mashes minor league hitting who can't typcially throw more fastballs which Snider feasts on. In spring, Snider once again mashed minor league hitting boosting his SLG% and total bases.....these numbers would drop like a stone against full time AB's against major leaguers who won't through him a feast of fastballs...better then 1 in every 3AB K's in spring training against mosly minor leauge pitchers is a very troubling sign....which I imagine is what AA saw.

Is Thames not supposed to be a power hitter? If so how come his slugging % wasn't higher against these minor league pitchers?

And Snider mashed minor league hitting?! WTF

Cooshman
03-27-2012, 12:30 PM
And what about his OPS of 750 that he posted in the majors? the same that thames posted? still against minor league pitching?

I have acknowledged this, I guess you want me to keep repeating myself, don't you?
OPS is one stat amongst others...his OPS has fluctuated and then spiralled downward big time last year...most likely because pitchers adjusted to Snider and exposed many of his weaknesses. Things he could get away with in the minors but not in the majors. He hit 3 HR's last year!! 3 HR's in nearly 200AB's with well over a K per game. Snider looked lost, uncomfortable and with absolutely no confidence and needs to work things out.
Thames was much better last year and Snider has done nothing to take the job away from him....
I have said all this so many times over but I guess it's easier for you to just ignore my responses and repeat yourself.

Kenny Powders
03-27-2012, 12:30 PM
You agree 100% even though at least some of his information is false...pretty funny!!
How old was Thames in his rookie season, how old is he now and how old did LechWalesa claim he was in his rookie season?
And you agree 100%?? LOL :clap::clap:

His age? Thats all you got? You are absolutely the wrong person to be critiquing other peoples post's validity. Believe me

This coming from the guy who said Snider feasts on minor league hitting. twice. in one post.

Cooshman
03-27-2012, 12:32 PM
Is Thames not supposed to be a power hitter? If so how come his slugging % wasn't higher against these minor league pitchers?

And Snider mashed minor league hitting?! WTF

First off, Thames is not supposed to be as big a power hitter as Snider - and no one has claimed that...
But please explain this:
.348SLG% comparred to .456SLG% in the majors 2011?? WTF??

Farsight
03-27-2012, 12:38 PM
What exactly have I not acknowledged??? The fact that just because Thames is starting in leftfield for the year, does not make him a better player. You annointed him the better player just based of 400 AB's, you complete ignored Sniders MLB career and what he did over a 3 year span by just looking at 200AB's, you have ignored scouting reports, and ignore stats and dodge stats. I have not seen an a solid objective argument you have yet to make, you just keep on ignore arguments presented by you by insulting posters, and avoiding the argument. When one of the most respective posters on these forum presents you with a solid argument, and pretty much uses your own logic to show that your premise is severely flawed, you say its the most outrageous post ever. There is a difference on arguing your thesis objectively, and being stubborn, refuting everything presented by others through fallacies.

I am really done with this forum. I admit that i was over reacting at the first, and i acknowledged that and stated so, but there really comes a point in time where this argument becomes redundant if one person completely ignores almost everyone else... This is becoming a circular argument, with facts being presented, and represented. No one is going to get anywhere

Cooshman
03-27-2012, 12:39 PM
His age? Thats all you got? You are absolutely the wrong person to be critiquing other peoples post's validity. Believe me

This coming from the guy who said Snider feasts on minor league hitting. twice. in one post.

Yeah, look at your sig, so what.....???
What about it...I accidentally quoted his career avg going into 2011, which was .321avg(everything before the 2011 season) and because I was looking at the wrong piece of information that should his current career average, which was .316avg (at the end of the 2011 season)....

What is your point?? What is wrong with those first 2 sentences?
Is that why you have this posted on your sig?!!
HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!! :clap::clap::clap:

Kenny Powders
03-27-2012, 12:39 PM
First off, Thames is not supposed to be as big a power hitter as Snider - and no one has claimed that...
But please explain this:
.348SLG% comparred to .456SLG% in the majors 2011?? WTF??

In two of Snider's four years he had a higher slugging % then Thames and thats not with the luxury of batting in front of Bautista. But your right, Snider still mashes the minor league hitting ;)

Kenny Powders
03-27-2012, 12:41 PM
Yeah, look at your sig, so what.....???
What about it...I accidentally quoted his career avg going into 2011, which was .321avg(everything before the 2011 season) and because I was looking at the wrong piece of information that should his current career average, which was .316avg (at the end of the 2011 season)....

What is your point?? What is wrong with those first 2 sentences?
Is that why you have this posted on your sig?!!
HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!! :clap::clap::clap:

Are you sure it isn't OBP your talking about there pal, looks like the joke may be on you. Lind a career .316 hitter. Thats very comical, does he mash minor league hitting as well?

Cooshman
03-27-2012, 12:46 PM
The fact that just because Thames is starting in leftfield for the year, does not make him a better player. You annointed him the better player just based of 400 AB's, you complete ignored Sniders MLB career and what he did over a 3 year span by just looking at 200AB's, you have ignored scouting reports, and ignore stats and dodge stats. I have not seen an a solid objective argument you have yet to make, you just keep on ignore arguments presented by you by saying insulting people, and avoiding the argument. When one of the most respective posters on these forum presents you with a really solid argument, and pretty much uses your own logic to show that your premise is severely flawed, you say its the most outrageous post ever. There is a difference on arguing your thesis objectively, and being stubborn, refuting everything presented by others through fallacies

OMG!!!! I think I have to just ignore your posts because you are completley losing it. For the last time, I have said, currently, Thames is the better player as his CURRENT stats prove.....I have said that Snider has the higher ceiling of the 2 but CURRENTLY is lost and cannot hit major leauge pitching. That he needs to rebuild his confidence and fix his swing. i have acknowledged every one of yours and other Snider defenders arguments - then you go on to say that I am igoring souting reports??!!! What the hell are you talking about?! How does that have me not acknowledging peoples posts on here (which I haev done)...and what does a scouting report have to do with the fact that Thames has out hit Snider by a wide margin last year and deserves the spot on the roster until Snider proves otherwise?!
I side with the decision the Jays have made, which is to start Thames and put Snider in the minors....you disagree with this decision. I have made my points over and over as to why I think it was the right decision but it's obvious that you are just too hard headed to take anything in objectively....so I am just going to ignore your posts.

Cooshman
03-27-2012, 12:50 PM
In two of Snider's four years he had a higher slugging % then Thames and thats not with the luxury of batting in front of Bautista. But your right, Snider still mashes the minor league hitting ;)

right, and remember how well Lind did in 2009, yet you hate him and think he sucks and is useless...yet Sniders stats from 2 years ago prove that he is better then Thames right now!!
Hmmm...go figure?!

Kenny Powders
03-27-2012, 01:00 PM
right, and remember how well Lind did in 2009, yet you hate him and think he sucks and is useless...yet Sniders stats from 2 years ago prove that he is better then Thames right now!!
Hmmm...go figure?!

Where did I say he was useless? There you go putting words in other poster's mouths again. You really should stop that. Lind used as a platoon would be a valuable peiece to any rotation. Batting fourth behind the best player in baseball may very well be the worst place for him. Lind has never posted a slg % over .600 and has been well below to average in 4 of his 5 years in the league, while Snider hasn't been given a fair shake. There is no comparing the two.

Ooops i forgot Lind had 87 rbi last season.

Cooshman
03-27-2012, 01:06 PM
Where did I say he was useless? There you go putting words in other poster's mouths again. You really should stop that. Lind used as a platoon would be a valuable peiece to any rotation. Batting fourth behind the best player in baseball may very well be the worst place for him. Lind has never posted a slg % over .600 and has been well below to average in 4 of his 5 years in the league, while Snider hasn't been given a fair shake. There is no comparing the two.

Ooops i forgot Lind had 87 rbi last season.

Bautista only had 103RBi's even though he hit 43HR's...so maybe saying more about the people in front of those 2 guys more then anything else...

One thing I will agree with you on is that Lind should not be hitting out of the 4th spot, would much rather see lind hitting 6th or 7th.

Kenny Powders
03-27-2012, 01:11 PM
Bautista only had 103RBi's even though he hit 43HR's...so maybe saying more about the people in front of those 2 guys more then anything else...

One thing I will agree with you on is that Lind should not be hitting out of the 4th spot, would much rather see lind hitting 6th or 7th.

Actually, Bautista had an OBP of.447 and an OPS of 1.056 which further attribute to Lind's suckiness.

Cooshman
03-27-2012, 01:18 PM
Actually, Bautista had an OBP of.447 and an OPS of 1.056 which further attribute to Lind's suckiness.

Lind was definitely sucky last year and even worst the year before...no denying that!

Kenny Powders
03-27-2012, 01:30 PM
Lind was definitely sucky last year and even worst the year before...no denying that!

I think Lind would be best used as a platoon 1b with Encarnacion. I hate the premise of it, but I think it would work best for this year's team. Then you free up DH for Thames who is subpar to Snider defensively and give Snider the left field job. You can also interchange and give Lind Encarnacion and Thames at bats in LF and Lind Snider and Encarnacion DH at bats. This way we get to seewhat both snider and thames can bring in a full season and you maximize both Lind's and Encarnacion at bats batting them against rh's and lh's respectively. Everyone wins.

Ace Drivers
03-27-2012, 01:43 PM
Funny how, regardless of the thread, it turns into a "Lind Sucks" rant...

Anyway, back on topic...here's the reality, we have 2 LF's approximately the same age, pretty sure Thames is a year older...one has been given chance after chance, the other is a bit of a mystery aside from what he did last year given his injuries in previous years. They were told that they would be competing for a starting job, and the other would be sent down...which is awesome, and most teams would love to have the same problem.

Aside from HR's, Thames did a better job at the plate...slightly, which is all he had to do. Why you may ask?

SNIDER CAN'T HIT A BREAKING BALL!!!! That's what this is about fellas...analyze their history, compare minor league stats, get out the calculator and figure out their wOPA's or what ever it is...doesn't matter, until Snider can prove he can hit a breaking ball consistently, or at least lay-off them he will remain a fringe player...it's that simple. Thames has proven he can be a consistent hitter, not an all-star, not amazing...just consistent.

And that's what the Jays want right now...consistency, predictability...neither of which apply to Snider...right now.

Remember, if the stats could play the game they would and all of these arguments would have more merit...but stats only tell you what a player has done, not what a player will do...no matter how hard people try, no matter how many permutations you grind the numbers through...they only result in an estimate.

You still have to play the game...and when you play anything can happen!

Ace Drivers
03-27-2012, 01:51 PM
BTW, all of this was made possible by the signing of Ben Franscisco...and the only logic I can think of is that they do not want a platoon situation, not sure why?

And until they've exhausted all ideas both players are being developed as outfielders...and the thought, which has some merit is that they don't want either one of them sitting on the bench...and would rather a guy play everyday in AAA.

Which normally I would agree with...but in Snider's case he has nothing left to prove there, and IMHO would benefit more by sitting on the bench in the bigs, working with big league coaches...learning how to stay in the bigs rather than "honing" his craft in the minors, which as I have already mentioned he's done...

So either trade him, or teach him...I agree that he doesn't need to be in the minors

ah nuts
03-27-2012, 02:04 PM
BTW, all of this was made possible by the signing of Ben Franscisco...and the only logic I can think of is that they do not want a platoon situation, not sure why?

And until they've exhausted all ideas both players are being developed as outfielders...and the thought, which has some merit is that they don't want either one of them sitting on the bench...and would rather a guy play everyday in AAA.

Which normally I would agree with...but in Snider's case he has nothing left to prove there, and IMHO would benefit more by sitting on the bench in the bigs, working with big league coaches...learning how to stay in the bigs rather than "honing" his craft in the minors, which as I have already mentioned he's done...

So either trade him, or teach him...I agree that he doesn't need to be in the minors
snider is still changing his swing and searching for what works for him. So a little AAA wont hurt. Not to mentioned Chad has been helping at lot.

plus Hard to get "locked in" when ur sitting on the bench every other day. generally that's why the bench is for vets only.

Farsight
03-27-2012, 02:22 PM
Funny how, regardless of the thread, it turns into a "Lind Sucks" rant...

Anyway, back on topic...here's the reality, we have 2 LF's approximately the same age, pretty sure Thames is a year older...one has been given chance after chance, the other is a bit of a mystery aside from what he did last year given his injuries in previous years. They were told that they would be competing for a starting job, and the other would be sent down...which is awesome, and most teams would love to have the same problem.

Aside from HR's, Thames did a better job at the plate...slightly, which is all he had to do. Why you may ask?

SNIDER CAN'T HIT A BREAKING BALL!!!! That's what this is about fellas...analyze their history, compare minor league stats, get out the calculator and figure out their wOPA's or what ever it is...doesn't matter, until Snider can prove he can hit a breaking ball consistently, or at least lay-off them he will remain a fringe player...it's that simple. Thames has proven he can be a consistent hitter, not an all-star, not amazing...just consistent.

And that's what the Jays want right now...consistency, predictability...neither of which apply to Snider...right now.

Remember, if the stats could play the game they would and all of these arguments would have more merit...but stats only tell you what a player has done, not what a player will do...no matter how hard people try, no matter how many permutations you grind the numbers through...they only result in an estimate.

You still have to play the game...and when you play anything can happen!
Thats actually false as 2009MVP has pointed out. If you look at either Pitchf/x Pitch values/100 or even his Pitch values (it pretty much shows which pitches a player does really good against of really poorly against), Snider actually does average against breaking balls and fast balls. The scale ranges from +20 to -20 and there is a discrepancy of usually +1.5 to -1.5 (as that is where the general average of success falls around). If you look at the pitches. there is not really a single pitch that he struggles against, nor does well against.

Surprisingly, if you were to pick the pitches he does well against or poorly against, he does well against Knuckleballs +5, and poorly against changeups/sliders -3. However, its not like he does really well or really poorly with any pitch as we can see, where in comparison Bautista was something like a +13 on Sliders last year

If you want to see this information its on fangraphs

ah nuts
03-27-2012, 02:28 PM
T. there is not really a single pitch that he struggles against, nor does well against.

S
If you want to see this information its on fangraphs

sounds like he needs, oh I don't know... maybe a FULL year in the MLB!! lol.

Ace Drivers
03-27-2012, 02:32 PM
Thats actually false as 2009MVP has pointed out. If you look at either Pitchf/x Pitch values/100 or even his Pitch values (it pretty much shows which pitches a player does really good against of really poorly against), Snider actually does average against breaking balls and fast balls. The scale ranges from +20 to -20 and there is a discrepancy of usually +1.5 to -1.5 (as that is where the general average of success falls around). If you look at the pitches. there is not really a single pitch that he struggles against, nor does well against.

Surprisingly, if you were to pick the pitches he does well against or poorly against, he does well against Knuckleballs +5, and poorly against changeups/sliders -3. However, its not like he does really well or really poorly with any pitch as we can see, where in comparison Bautista was something like a +13 on Sliders last year

If you want to see this information its on fangraphs

Do the wonder stats you quote include the minors, or is it just based on his 799 at bats in the bigs?

And are you not proving my point when the wonder stats have him at -3 for change-ups/sliders...those would be breaking balls no? and - 3 on a scale from -20 to +20 kinda suggests he can't hit em...

Farsight
03-27-2012, 02:40 PM
Do the wonder stats you quote include the minors, or is it just based on his 799 at bats in the bigs?

And are you not proving my point when the wonder stats have him at -3 for change-ups/sliders...those would be breaking balls no? and - 3 on a scale from -20 to +20 kinda suggests he can't hit em... that is just his major league stats, you can check down the breakdown year after year. But -3 is just a little below average. His inability to not hit breaking balls is over exaggerating. He also does well against other breaking balls. But in general he doesn't really struggle against breaking balls nor does not really do well

wagnall
03-27-2012, 02:59 PM
Read all the posts over the last day and interesting reads, problem is everyone is arguing, but no one is winning. Some of the stats brought up are compelling, but as of April mean little as Thames has been given the nod over Snider by AA. I don't care for the decision as they could have given Snider to TD to show what he has WITHOUT the fear he'd be sent back when he stumbles. Didn't happen, hope we see Snider back soon.
But how ever this shags out this year, it needs to be sorted out between Thames and Snider. :)

2013 is going to serve up its own wonderful problems and tough decisions when Gose and d'Anaud and even Marsnick come looking for jobs. :):)

nithanyo
03-27-2012, 04:01 PM
And thats a terrible way to conduct business when trying to evaluate talent.

If you follow any sports at a high level you could tell this is how they conduct business. Cus when a player is not performing you are losing money.

Unless you're a megastar or under a huge contract you're likely to be traded, sent down or benched if you are not performing well. Simple as that

wagnall
03-27-2012, 04:11 PM
Bautista only had 103RBi's even though he hit 43HR's...so maybe saying more about the people in front of those 2 guys more then anything else...

One thing I will agree with you on is that Lind should not be hitting out of the 4th spot, would much rather see lind hitting 6th or 7th.


:offtopic: Bingo, that 43 and 103 is remarkable esp. when he got over 40% of his rbis' knocking himself in. And I've said from the onset that the 4th spot should be earned not a given.
But this is kind of off topic, better get back to Snider.

nithanyo
03-27-2012, 04:28 PM
The point is that players who are called up around age 20-21 (like Lawrie) are more likely to be star players than guys who debut when they are 24 (like Thames). This isn't a new concept.


You can debut at 20, but when you are struggling as a 24 year old you're no more valuable then the 25 year old making his debut and performing.


Way to pick the exception. Bautista doesn't fit into any conventional story, but then how many Jose Bautista types are there? Maybe one or two players in over a 120 years of baseball.


Maybe not to Bautistas turn around but you can look at players like Napoli, Ortiz, Jayson Werth etc. who turned their careers around late in their career.

When you make it to the bigs at 20 doesn't mean you are necessarily better. It just means theres more time for you to turn you're career around if you start struggling. It also means you hit well with minor league pitching. Staying up here against major league pitching is a whole new game.


Guys who are playing in the majors at age 20 generally end up being better than guys who are in the minor leagues at age 20. There are always going to be exceptions. But more often than not, guys like Justin Upton, Albert Pujols, Felix Hernandez, Ken Griffey Jr, Alex Rodriguez and all the other guys are get called up at age 19-21 tend to be better than guys who are called up at age 24.

Again age is only a number.
Josh Hamilton did not debut till he was 26 and already has an MVP to his name.


Everybody knows Thames had injury problems. Nobody said there weren't exceptions to the rule. Doesn't change the fact that Snider playing against major league competition at age 20 while Thames was playing against college teams makes Snider's achievements more impressive. Just like Lawrie's achievements are more important than Thames for the same reason.



Getting to the majors at 20 is impressive, test. But staying up here is when you really show off you're talent. Being sent down so many times shows that he can't seem to hit ML pitching.


And typically the guys who come up as a 20 year old are better than the guys who come up at 25. And the guys who come out at 30 are extremely rare.

This isn't an opinion here. It's a fact. It's like trying to argue that a guy with a 250 BA is a better hitter for average than a guy with a 300 BA. You can disagree with the facts all you like, but it doesn't change the fact that the majority of the time, guys who debut at a young age end up being much better players than guys who come up at age 24-26.

Again, debuting at 20 is impressive. And Yes a lot of players who debut at 20 are successful like A-Rod and Felix Hernandez. But that doesn't necessarily mean its written in stone. Snider has not done anything recently to prove he belongs in the majors. When he was given the chance he blew it. Every single time.






I don't think anybody is disputing that Thames had a better season. But the guys in the front office are being paid to see past 300 at bats.


Im sure AA and farell did their research before sending Snider down

You quoted him when he said "So until Thames slumps or someone gets injured, the situation in Toronto is exactly how it should be - Thames on the Jays in LF and Snider waiting for his turn in Las Vegas."

- I don't see anywhere there where he says snider has the higher ceiling



The irony of this post, is that the argument I made here is the same one you just made about Thames/Snider. Funny how you seem to understand small sample size and things like that when it doesn't suit your argument.



Yes, obviously Lind is the better player going forward. And yes, Lind had more plate appearances. But isn't it interesting, that you were able to see that Lind is the better player, despite the inferior season? You could almost say the same thing about, I don't know, Thames and Snider? Despite Thames having the better season (with more AB's), we can all recognize that Snider has hit equally well, or even better than Thames in the past. And we all better be able to recognize that Snider was much better in the minor leagues, and has more upside.

Intentionally or not, by arguing that Lind should play over Molina, you're saying that Snider should bat over Thames. Thus, proving my point.

400 AB's is a decent sample size to go by. And 800Ab's is enough to send someone down

Plus lind has a 36 Hr, .300+ ba season and he bcked it up with 2 average seasons. Snider did not put anything near Linds 2009 numbers.

AND

400 AB's is a decent sample size to go by. And 800Ab's is enough to send someone down



He also chose to stick with Jo-Jo Reyes for 20 starts and 100+ innings. Which means he's not perfect, either. Let's not act like he is.


JOJO reyes was kept up here cus we didn't have much of an option.


Or, you know, equal to Snider's 767 OPS in 2010. And quite similar to a 748. Or, if we, you know, average the 3 seasons, it comes out to a 764 OPS. Which is exactly the same as Thames 769 OPS.

But you were saying?

I swear 769 is more than 764. Plus in 2011(the most recent year) Snider put up an awful 617 OPS.


Except it's been pointed out by people who watch the games that Snider was actually driving the ball (thus getting legit HR and hitting for power) while Thames was getting a lot of bloop hits. Line drives are what you want to see players hit. So Thames hitting line looks a lot stronger on paper than it actually is.

again. spring training ball.

and for the record. if the outfielder kicks around the ball it would be marked an error.

A bloop hit is basically a soft hit ball that makes it over the infielders head. Unless you have Ricky Henderson like speed you can't get a double off that.


Regardless of their batting average (and really, given that it's not 1960 who cares about BA?), Snider's 965 OPS was much better than Thames 891. And not that I care, but Snider had way more RBI.

Lol i find it comical how u dismiss a players batting average which attests just as much to a players hitting ability as OPS. Hell if you go to espn and chenck a players stats the first stat to show up is his batting average. So clearly batting average still matters.






He says it pretty straight forward. Snider has a higher ceiling.




So a guy who's been one of the worst first baseman in the league, a guy who has been about as effective as Snider, and a DH with a 787 OPS is what's preventing a potential blue chip prospect from playing everyday in the majors?

Blue chip prospect. LMFAO. He made his debut 4 years ago.

Secondly in 2011, Lind, Encarnasion and Thames all hit better than Snider. Hence thats why they are playing on the major league team and snider is in AAA

TRIUMPHATOR
03-27-2012, 06:52 PM
^why don't you tell us how you really feel.

Twitchy
03-27-2012, 08:07 PM
You can debut at 20, but when you are struggling as a 24 year old you're no more valuable then the 25 year old making his debut and performing.

Has he ever had a full seasons worth of at bats? No? So we don't actually know what he's capable of, good or bad, do we?

And the answer is no, because you can't evaluate a guy based on a 300 AB season. You need 550-600 at bats per season, and it's generally better with multiple seasons of this sample size.


Maybe not to Bautistas turn around but you can look at players like Napoli, Ortiz, Jayson Werth etc. who turned their careers around late in their career.


David Ortiz debuted at age 21.
Werth debuted at age 23, and would have debuted earlier had it not been for injuries and changing positions.
Napoli was fantastic from the moment he debuted.

None of these guys actually prove your point or disprove mine. There are some players that get to the majors later and perform better. But this is not a typical thing.

It's not complicated man. It's like if a kid is 10 years old and is in high school. The fact that everybody else his age is in grade 3/4 while he's in high school means he's smarter than pretty much anybody his age. It doesn't mean that he'll do better than EVERYBODY he goes to high school with, but clearly his marks are that much more impressive due to his age, and it's more likely that he'll be successful.

I can't make it any simpler. This isn't even that complicated. You're arguing an irrelevant point.


When you make it to the bigs at 20 doesn't mean you are necessarily better. It just means theres more time for you to turn you're career around if you start struggling.

It means that a Major League team thought you were ready to play in the major leagues at age 20 while everybody else your age is in college or the minors. It doesn't mean you have more time to turn your career around, it means you're a fantastic athlete who is capable of playing with the 700 or so best baseball players in the world.


It also means you hit well with minor league pitching. Staying up here against major league pitching is a whole new game.


Again, when Snider came up he hit major league pitching just as well as Thames did. And yet everybody still called Snider a bust. Yourself included.


Again age is only a number.
Josh Hamilton did not debut till he was 26 and already has an MVP to his name.

Hamilton made AA by the time he was 20. He would have been in the majors by the time he was 21 had it not been for the fact he was an alcoholic with drug issues.

Is this a serious argument or are you just wasting my time? I actually don't think you understand what we're getting at here. Hamilton wasn't some awful scrub who couldn't figure out how to hit a baseball till he was 26. He was an extremely talented guy who nearly threw it all way on drugs/alcohol. But there's no question he would have been up by 20/21. Which again, would prove my point.


Getting to the majors at 20 is impressive, test. But staying up here is when you really show off you're talent. Being sent down so many times shows that he can't seem to hit ML pitching.


Yes, being sent down when he had a 764 OPS is really a sign that Snider can't hit major league pitching. I guess the standard for staying in the majors is posting a 765 OPS, because Thames had a 769 OPS. So why did Snider get demoted with a 764 OPS but Thames is a major leaguer in your words with a 769 OPS?

In the past you could argue that Snider struggled in 2011. But here you're specifically saying Snider got sent down in the past, several years, multiple demotions, because he couldn't hit major league pitching. During years where he posted identical OPS to Thames. Can you explain that one?


Again, debuting at 20 is impressive. And Yes a lot of players who debut at 20 are successful like A-Rod and Felix Hernandez. But that doesn't necessarily mean its written in stone. Snider has not done anything recently to prove he belongs in the majors. When he was given the chance he blew it. Every single time.

Are you being intentionally thick? I've said several times it doesn't guarantee success. I said it makes it more likely. Stop making these strawman arguments that nobody is using. Nobody said being called up at 20 guarantees success.

And as I JUST finished saying, Snider did just as much between 2008-2010 to prove he belongs in the majors as Thames did. Quit pretending otherwise.


You quoted him when he said "So until Thames slumps or someone gets injured, the situation in Toronto is exactly how it should be - Thames on the Jays in LF and Snider waiting for his turn in Las Vegas."

- I don't see anywhere there where he says snider has the higher ceiling

What part of what I quoted wasn't clear? The third line in his post says "Secondly, I think it would be more accurate to say that Snider has a higher ceiling then Thames but as of right now". He flat out says he thinks Snider has a higher ceiling than Thames. Are you serious? He says it in the third line.


400 AB's is a decent sample size to go by. And 800Ab's is enough to send someone down


You're aware of the fact that he's had no more than 298 at bats in a single season, right? You can't just add up the seasons like that given how small the sample size it is. It doesn't work like that.


Plus lind has a 36 Hr, .300+ ba season and he bcked it up with 2 average seasons. Snider did not put anything near Linds 2009 numbers.


No, Snider didn't do anything like Lind did. But let's not pretend Lind backed it up with "2 average seasons". What's your definition of average? Lind averaged a 745 OPS before the breakout, and a 723 OPS after it.

You know what's pathetic? Outside of Lind's career year, his OPS is lower than Snider's. That's how bad Lind has been in every year but 2009.


JOJO reyes was kept up here cus we didn't have much of an option.

Actually, we had several. Let's not pretend the Jays didn't.


I swear 769 is more than 764. Plus in 2011(the most recent year) Snider put up an awful 617 OPS.


The difference of 5 points of OPS is meaningless. Meaningless. It's clear you're not actually trying to have a discussion here if you're trying to argue that a difference of 5 points of OPS is somehow statistically meaningful.

Let's get real here.


again. spring training ball.

Uh huh. Weren't you the guy arguing last year that Reyes was gonna be awesome because of his Spring Training?


and for the record. if the outfielder kicks around the ball it would be marked an error.


That's the point. That's why I quoted the guy who said it was a stupid call. The outfielder kicked the ball around and it was called a hit.


Lol i find it comical how u dismiss a players batting average which attests just as much to a players hitting ability as OPS.

While it's adorable that you think this is true, it's been shown by people smarter than you or I that getting on base and hitting for power is a much better link to scoring runs.

This isn't even complicated. Is a team that hits 300, doesn't hit for much power, doesn't have much speed, or walk much going to score more runs than a team that hits 280, walks a lot, and hits for power (with no speed)? Of course not. Hitting for power and getting on base is the best things a player can do.

Why do you think Jose Bautista was so damn good when he hit 50 home runs? He hit 260, he should suck if batting average is so important. But he got on base and hit for power and was one of the best damn players in the league.

I don't even care if you like OPS or not. But this is a common sense thing. Even before OPS was around it made sense that not making outs and hitting HR's were more valuable than guys who just hit a bunch of singles and did nothing else.


Hell if you go to espn and chenck a players stats the first stat to show up is his batting average. So clearly batting average still matters.


The first stat (http://espn.go.com/mlb/stats/batting/_/year/2011/seasontype/2/league/al) to show up is the number of at bats.

I'm not going to waste my time responding again.

Cooshman
03-27-2012, 09:16 PM
What part of what I quoted wasn't clear? The third line in his post says "Secondly, I think it would be more accurate to say that Snider has a higher ceiling then Thames but as of right now". He flat out says he thinks Snider has a higher ceiling than Thames. Are you serious? He says it in the third line.




I do think that Snider has a higher ceiling then Thames. However, many players never come close to their ceiling because of many reasons and have terrible or no careers to speak of.....while at the same time players with lower ceilings go on to have solid careers. "Ceiling" and "Potential" are pretty much the same thing and many never live up to it - Snider is well on his way down that path - I do hope he can turn it around.
Also, you did claim that I said Snider was a better player then Thames - of course, I never did. Thames RIGHT NOW is the better player.
As I said, Thames is where he should be and Snider is where he should be...

StealingSigns
03-27-2012, 09:27 PM
I do think that Snider has a higher ceiling then Thames. However, many players never come close to their ceiling because of many reasons and have terrible or no careers to speak of.....while at the same time players with lower ceilings go on to have solid careers. "Ceiling" and "Potential" are pretty much the same thing and many never live up to it - Snider is well on his way down that path - I do hope he can turn it around.
Also, you did claim that I said Snider was a better player then Thames - of course, I never did. Thames RIGHT NOW is the better player.
As I said, Thames is where he should be and Snider is where he should be...

I do believe he was responding to another poster, Cooshman.

LechWalesa
03-27-2012, 09:30 PM
First off, Thames was 24yrs old last year (not 26) and is 25 years and will be for the whole baseball season!!
Second off, if was Thames job to lose because he outperformed Snider considerably in almost every single offensive category.

I love how people trying to defend a player will resort to posting false information to try and prove their points - here he is aged 2yrs, in another Thames only had 200AB's last year, in another I said that Thames was a better player then Snider...etc..etc..etc...

All this false information is more revealing of Snider defender's biases rather then factual reasons as to why he should be starting over Thames!!

A few things I would like to tackle here.

i) You're right, Thames is 25. I happen to not have every Blue Jay's age memorized. I apologize if you misinterpreted this as an attempt to mislead people for the purposes of my argument. I assure you that I really was just ignorant of his age.

ii) By responding to my post in this way you have managed to accomplish the same sort of mental gymnastic move that you accuse me of attempting. Specifically, you didn't really respond to what i was saying, but the facts presented. Which would be fine, if the age was really the crux of my argument and not the fact that Thames was awful in September and that Snider had similar success in his first major league stint.

Keep stuffing those scarecrows. I'm sure you'd be quite the spin doctor. :facepalm:

JaysFan87
03-27-2012, 10:10 PM
If you follow any sports at a high level you could tell this is how they conduct business. Cus when a player is not performing you are losing money.

Unless you're a megastar or under a huge contract you're likely to be traded, sent down or benched if you are not performing well. Simple as that

No its not a good way of evaluating talent. You don't give up on a Snider talent because a guy (thames) who produces the same numbers as Snider comes around. This is exactly the case where talent has to out-shadow the performance becasue the difference in potential performance is far far to great.

Cooshman
03-27-2012, 10:15 PM
I do believe he was responding to another poster, Cooshman.

Nope, that was from an earlier posting that I made...

Cooshman
03-27-2012, 10:26 PM
A few things I would like to tackle here.

i) You're right, Thames is 25. I happen to not have every Blue Jay's age memorized. I apologize if you misinterpreted this as an attempt to mislead people for the purposes of my argument. I assure you that I really was just ignorant of his age.

ii) By responding to my post in this way you have managed to accomplish the same sort of mental gymnastic move that you accuse me of attempting. Specifically, you didn't really respond to what i was saying, but the facts presented. Which would be fine, if the age was really the crux of my argument and not the fact that Thames was awful in September and that Snider had similar success in his first major league stint.

Keep stuffing those scarecrows. I'm sure you'd be quite the spin doctor. :facepalm:

It's kind of amusing that you use the age difference between Snider and Thames to defend your reasoning as to why Snider should be starting and when I point out that you aged Thames by 2 years you respond with "I happen to not have every Blue Jay's age memorized". If you are going to use a piece of information to support your argument, don't you think you should make sure that piece of information is factual?! HHHMMMMM!!!

And the rest of my post is true, I have had to correct a number of false pieces of information, used by Snider defenders, to support their arguments....this just strengthens the reasons as to why Snider is where he deserves to be - in the minors!!!

As for responding to the rest of your post, I have done so in many postings on my own......I don't feel i need to repeat myself to please you.

GNick
03-27-2012, 10:31 PM
Snider will be long term lf, Thames will be dealt at deadline

Cooshman
03-27-2012, 10:35 PM
No its not a good way of evaluating talent. You don't give up on a Snider talent because a guy (thames) who produces the same numbers as Snider comes around. This is exactly the case where talent has to out-shadow the performance becasue the difference in potential performance is far far to great.

-56K's in 49games (186AB's), 3HR's, .225avg, .269OBP, .348SLG, .615OPS
-88k's in 95games (362Ab's), 12HR's, .262avg, .313OBP, .456SLG, .769OPS

Yep, looks exactly the same to me too!!!

Cooshman
03-27-2012, 10:41 PM
Snider will be long term lf, Thames will be dealt at deadline

I hope you are right...
It's not looking that way right now but let's hope that Snider can turn it around.

JaysFan87
03-27-2012, 10:45 PM
-56K's in 49games (186AB's), 3HR's, .225avg, .269OBP, .348SLG, .615OPS
-88k's in 95games (362Ab's), 12HR's, .262avg, .313OBP, .456SLG, .769OPS

Yep, looks exactly the same to me too!!!

Thames last year did what Snider did between 2008-2010 in less consecutive AB at a younger age. I don't see how you or others can't see the significance of that. Thames could be a useful player but I would be shocked if he is regular on a championship contender team.


But w/e people the season will play out and we'll see the true Thames and Snider for whatever they are. Although I have a strong feeling that the blue jays will be on the same position next spring with both these guys. Its sad, really how this has played out for Snider since his original promotion by the blue jays.

Cooshman
03-27-2012, 11:11 PM
Thames last year did what Snider did between 2008-2010 in less consecutive AB at a younger age. I don't see how you or others can't see the significance of that. Thames could be a useful player but I would be shocked if he is regular on a championship contender team.


But w/e people the season will play out and we'll see the true Thames and Snider for whatever they are. Although I have a strong feeling that the blue jays will be on the same position next spring with both these guys. Its sad, really how this has played out for Snider since his original promotion by the blue jays.

Major league pitching has adjusted to Snider and exposed his major hitting flaws......this is quite common with young hitter who have early success. Snider needs to fix his swing and hopefully prove that he can be a contributing major league baseball player.

I do think it is sad too...Snider has been given many chances and failed over and over again....Thames had a solid rookie season and deserves to be there. Maybe he will regress too, who knows!? We'll find out soon enough...

ByShine
03-27-2012, 11:20 PM
i dunno about snider is overrated in my eyes

JaysFan87
03-27-2012, 11:22 PM
Major league pitching has adjusted to Snider and exposed his major hitting flaws......this is quite common with young hitter who have early success. Snider needs to fix his swing and hopefully prove that he can be a contributing major league baseball player.

I do think it is sad too...Snider has been given many chances and failed over and over again....Thames had a solid rookie season and deserves to be there. Maybe he will regress too, who knows!? We'll find out soon enough...

Right Snider couldn't adjust so they sent him down...Thames couldn't adjust and he gets a starting gig. Both these guys struggled after pitchers adjusted to them. Unfortunately for Snider he wasn't afforded the chance to adjust back.

StealingSigns
03-27-2012, 11:26 PM
I don't recall Snider ever getting a cushy spot in the order, unlike Thames. For crying out loud, Thames numbers from last year are skewed.

nithanyo
03-27-2012, 11:44 PM
Its comical how some guys just continue to pile on the excuses. Sniders been sent down already. All you guys whining on a forum isn't going to get him back up here.

Hell i couldn't pick up snider on my fantasy team so i went with Thames :p

JaysFan87
03-27-2012, 11:48 PM
No one is whining (at least not me) about him not being here. I couldn't see a conceivable way of him being able to start eh year as teh LF without an injury somewhere. My concern is how he has been treated since he was called up in 2008. Brutal.

wagnall
03-28-2012, 12:39 AM
Man I wish the season would start tomorrow, so everyone can stop *****ing about this with the same arguments on every page of this thread, and still there is no winner. Hopefully when the season starts that we are all cheering for Thames, even though some feel he stole Sniders spot.

nithanyo
03-28-2012, 04:38 AM
Man I wish the season would start tomorrow, so everyone can stop *****ing about this with the same arguments on every page of this thread, and still there is no winner. Hopefully when the season starts that we are all cheering for Thames, even though some feel he stole Sniders spot.

Right on!!

At the end of the day we are all jays fans. Hopefully we root for everyone in a blue jays jersey.

wamco
03-28-2012, 08:05 AM
ortiz was a cheater, josh hamilton would have been in mlb much earlier if not for obvious reasons. 2 very unique cases.

Kenny Powders
03-28-2012, 09:29 AM
Its comical how some guys just continue to pile on the excuses. Sniders been sent down already. All you guys whining on a forum isn't going to get him back up here.

Hell i couldn't pick up snider on my fantasy team so i went with Thames :p

Who exactly is whining? Some people on this site have a good way spinning things.

And BTW this is a discussion board, where we discuss what is happening with the Jays. Of course everyone isn't going to agree with every team decision, so you know, we discuss it on here.

ah nuts
03-28-2012, 09:30 AM
fox sports guy:

The Jays’ reluctance to give up on Snider, 24, is understandable for other reasons as well. First off, the Jays might need Snider at some point this season. Second, a talented young player can haunt a team that gives up on him too quickly.

Case in point: Brandon Phillips.

Phillips, like Snider, was rushed to the majors at a young age, then spent several years trying to establish himself with Cleveland. The Indians traded him when he was 25, and Phillips went on to become a star with the Cincinnati Reds.

I believe KC's Gorden is another example.

wamco
03-28-2012, 09:31 AM
This whole thread is whining, what are you talking about. Snider will be fine if it was meant to be.

Kenny Powders
03-28-2012, 09:39 AM
This whole thread is whining, what are you talking about. Snider will be fine if it was meant to be.

Its not whining but when you get people calling you things like a geek, nerd, or a gamer for using advanced stats or asking if you are Snider's bf because you think he should be up here more, you would get pissed off too.

AA09-?
03-28-2012, 09:48 AM
Its not whining but when you get people calling you things like a geek, nerd, or a gamer for using advanced stats or asking if you are Snider's bf because you think he should be up here more, you would get pissed off too.

Couldn't agree more. The insults need to stop!

wamco
03-28-2012, 10:09 AM
for fun, you could report the posts. Nothing happens to the posters seemingly though

Sanyo
03-28-2012, 10:39 AM
Jose Bautista is a prime example ;)

Kenny Powders
03-28-2012, 10:50 AM
for fun, you could report the posts. Nothing happens to the posters seemingly though

Never been one to run to mom and dad when someone calls me names, especially on an internet board.

Cooshman
03-28-2012, 10:57 AM
Couldn't agree more. The insults need to stop!

OHHHHHhh the Irony!!!
You couldn't agree more with a guy that complains about insults yet on his signature he has been displaying a post I made with an error in it (I put "avg" instead of "OBP") - would you not say that this is insulting??
Personally, I could care less because I think he is a moron for trying to prove a point on a simple error I made when entering a post. But I find this guy to be so hypocritical with his rants.....

As the saying goes "people who live in glass houses shouldn't throw stones"

ah nuts
03-28-2012, 11:01 AM
Jose Bautista is a prime example ;)

actually Bautista is almost a once in a lifetime thing.
Bench player to superstar at the age of 29.
Plus not many scouts ever seen Bautista as a future star.
Bautista is a fluke.

... assuming this post is in reference to snider blooming late.

Kenny Powders
03-28-2012, 11:01 AM
OHHHHHhh the Irony!!!
You couldn't agree more with a guy that complains about insults yet on his signature he has been displaying a post I made with an error in it (I put "avg" instead of "OBP") - would you not say that this is insulting??
Personally, I could care less because I think he is a moron for trying to prove a point on a simple error I made when entering a post. But I find this guy to be so hypocritical with his rants.....

As the saying goes "people who live in glass houses shouldn't throw stones"

I don't know what you are getting at? Look at the second line of my sig. Thats why I have it up. it actually sums you up pretty good.

LuckyLuke2
03-28-2012, 11:14 AM
Its comical how some guys just continue to pile on the excuses. Sniders been sent down already. All you guys whining on a forum isn't going to get him back up here.

Hell i couldn't pick up snider on my fantasy team so i went with Thames :p

Bang on. I haven't been on this thread in a few days and already it's doubled in posts.

I mean... He's sent down hahaha get over it he ain't coming back up for a while. It's well deserved. Geez you guys are crying more then Snider.

Tdot4ever
03-28-2012, 11:14 AM
Snider needs to request a trade. I really don't give two Sh1t who starts at left field, but AA is doing him wrong. And for the record, most of the chicken heads in this forum wouldn't duke it out in real life, that's why ya'll talk so much.

Kenny Powders
03-28-2012, 11:20 AM
Bang on. I haven't been on this thread in a few days and already it's doubled in posts.

I mean... He's sent down hahaha get over it he ain't coming back up for a while. It's well deserved. Geez you guys are crying more then Snider.

The inmates are running the asylum.

Cooshman
03-28-2012, 11:20 AM
I don't know what you are getting at? Look at the second line of my sig. Thats why I have it up. it actually sums you up pretty good.

Sums you up pretty good too....a hypocrit and someone that likes to prove a point by taking other peoples posts out of context. Why don't you show the full string of our conversations and all the insults you tossed out at me long before what I said in that post...

But, then again, that's not the nature of a hypocrit...

AA09-?
03-28-2012, 11:27 AM
for fun, you could report the posts. Nothing happens to the posters seemingly though

Oh, I have been.

AA09-?
03-28-2012, 11:31 AM
OHHHHHhh the Irony!!!
You couldn't agree more with a guy that complains about insults yet on his signature he has been displaying a post I made with an error in it (I put "avg" instead of "OBP") - would you not say that this is insulting??
Personally, I could care less because I think he is a moron for trying to prove a point on a simple error I made when entering a post. But I find this guy to be so hypocritical with his rants.....

As the saying goes "people who live in glass houses shouldn't throw stones"

Got your back up, do ya!?!?LOL