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View Full Version : How many MVP's were based on Stats



Chronz
03-22-2012, 04:39 PM
By that I mean, how many times do you think an individual won it despite not being on the best team in the league but also lacking an interesting narrative (ie from worst to first). Nobody bases anything completely off any 1 element, but you cannot deny some MVP's have been named in large part for their dominating statistics.

An example of this would be Michael Jordan's first MVP. It was his 4th year, the team won 10 more games than the year prior which vaulted them into the 50-Win echelon for the first time in his career, which sounds like a good narrative except when you consider that 7 other teams won 50 or more that year, so he clearly wasnt on the best team and the 10+ game narrative isnt that compelling with so many other more successful teams.

I dont think it happens often, prolly not thread worthy if so, in that case you can state your case for when it should have happened. Many people felt Kobe should have won it over Nash for his dominating play individually.

Hawkeye15
03-22-2012, 04:49 PM
the complete inconsistency of the MVP award has almost made me stop analyzing the results. Jordan is a good example. If he clearly had better stats than any other player, and met a minimum criteria set by the voters (team wins 50 games?), his stats got him there. Moses Malone's 1st MVP may fit the criteria you are setting as well.

VCaintdead17
03-22-2012, 04:51 PM
Kevin Garnett maybe?

Allen Iverson?

I know both of them lead their respective teams to the playoffs but I don't think their teams were that dominating, they just put up prolific numbers.

Hawkeye15
03-22-2012, 04:52 PM
Kevin Garnett maybe?

Allen Iverson?

I know both of them lead their respective teams to the playoffs but I don't think their teams were that dominating, they just put up prolific numbers.

The Wolves were the #1 seed in the west. AI is a decent example.

VCaintdead17
03-22-2012, 04:55 PM
The Wolves were the #1 seed in the west. AI is a decent example.

Yeah, I just realized I'm WAY off. Both Philly and Minnny got the 1 seed the year their guys won MVP.

Hawkeye15
03-22-2012, 04:58 PM
Yeah, I just realized I'm WAY off. Both Philly and Minnny got the 1 seed the year their guys won MVP.

yeah, I just looked and AI's team was the best in the east.

Sactown
03-22-2012, 05:05 PM
None.. It's all hype from ESPN and other media outlets.

mdm692
03-22-2012, 05:06 PM
How do you really define the value of a player to a team. I mean Last year derrick rose was the mvp and it could be argued that the bulls would suck without him yet this year they are doing mighty fine without him. On the other hand you have nash who's team relies totally on him and if he were to miss a season the suns would own the worst record in the nba. So i ask can the mvp award really be chosen ob stats alone.

valade16
03-22-2012, 05:29 PM
If people voted for MVP based solely off stats Jordan would've had 8 MVPs...

Raph12
03-22-2012, 05:32 PM
The Wolves were the #1 seed in the west. AI is a decent example.

Sixers were #1 in the East and only 2 games behind the best team in the league (Spurs 58 wins)...

CudiOnMyiPod
03-22-2012, 05:40 PM
The year Kobe averaged 35 ppg and Chris Paul easily should have won it.

Raph12
03-22-2012, 05:45 PM
The year Kobe averaged 35 ppg and Chris Paul easily should have won it.

That was 2005-06, Nash won that season, not Kobe or CP3 (Paul wasn't even that good then)... You mean 2007-08, when CP3 clearly deserved it and Kobe won.

Hawkeye15
03-22-2012, 05:47 PM
Sixers were #1 in the East and only 2 games behind the best team in the league (Spurs 58 wins)...

I posted that right after. I forgot they won the east.

Chronz
03-22-2012, 05:51 PM
None.. It's all hype from ESPN and other media outlets.
Seriously?

Meaze_Gibson
03-22-2012, 06:08 PM
One of Tim Duncans years he got MVP was superior statistically than Kidd but everybody thought Kidd deserved it. I think it should be a mix between team record, stats, and stats against other mvp candidates.

I wasn't mad when Rose got it last year because they had best record AND when they played other good teams he did his thing. His stats were solid enough. I wasn't mad the year Kobe got it over cp and bron. bron only had 47 wins. I guarantee if cp wouldve won that last game against Lakers, he wouldve got the award. He didn't, Lakers got no 1 seed, and history is history.

A certain mix of team record, overall stats, and stats against top competition should do it.

SteveNash
03-22-2012, 06:54 PM
Seriously?

It's definitely best story Chronz, you know that. Some arbitrary criteria made up by clueless fools who care more about how much air time or words they can fill up arguing who deserves to be the MVP.

Chronz
03-22-2012, 07:05 PM
One of Tim Duncans years he got MVP was superior statistically than Kidd but everybody thought Kidd deserved it. I think it should be a mix between team record, stats, and stats against other mvp candidates.

I wasn't mad when Rose got it last year because they had best record AND when they played other good teams he did his thing. His stats were solid enough. I wasn't mad the year Kobe got it over cp and bron. bron only had 47 wins. I guarantee if cp wouldve won that last game against Lakers, he wouldve got the award. He didn't, Lakers got no 1 seed, and history is history.

A certain mix of team record, overall stats, and stats against top competition should do it.
Bill Simmons did mention that MVP in his book, he stated we almost robbed the greatest PF ever of the MVP in his greatest statistical season.

Chronz
03-22-2012, 07:10 PM
It's definitely best story Chronz, you know that. Some arbitrary criteria made up by clueless fools who care more about how much air time or words they can fill up arguing who deserves to be the MVP.
Yes yes

moving on, your qualified to answer the title, how often would you say those mvps were hollow, since in your world stat leaders are detrimental to the game.

Hawkeye15
03-22-2012, 07:36 PM
Moses Malone's 1978-79' MVP qualifies imo.

Chronz
03-22-2012, 07:59 PM
Moses Malone's 1978-79' MVP qualifies imo.
Definitely

Hawkeye15
03-22-2012, 08:19 PM
McAdoo's 74-75' MVP can be tossed in

Hawkeye15
03-22-2012, 08:20 PM
looking over each of them, Moses's 79' MVP fits the bill the strongest imo. Jabbar had the stats as well, but Malone's numbers clearly outweighed his teams success.

VCaintdead17
03-22-2012, 09:20 PM
I'd love to see Kevin Love break this trend of the MVP being on elite teams. It's quite obvious that Minnesota is entirely dependent on Love to even have a shot at winning. The fact that they've won as many games as they have shows how well he's rounded out his game. Still has a ways to go, though.

Hawkeye15
03-22-2012, 09:45 PM
I'd love to see Kevin Love break this trend of the MVP being on elite teams. It's quite obvious that Minnesota is entirely dependent on Love to even have a shot at winning. The fact that they've won as many games as they have shows how well he's rounded out his game. Still has a ways to go, though.

I started an analysis of how the Wolves play on both sides when Rubio went down. They are already sliding on both sides. Not taking anything away from Love, I think he has the potential to be a future MVP candidate, but Rubio was huge for them, especially on defense.

VCaintdead17
03-22-2012, 09:49 PM
I started an analysis of how the Wolves play on both sides when Rubio went down. They are already sliding on both sides. Not taking anything away from Love, I think he has the potential to be a future MVP candidate, but Rubio was huge for them, especially on defense.

I absolutely agree with you. Rubio definitely made them better. But without Love, it seems they literally can't even compete. They'd just be lost.

Hawkeye15
03-22-2012, 09:51 PM
I absolutely agree with you. Rubio definitely made them better. But without Love, it seems they literally can't even compete. They'd just be lost.

oh for sure. He possesses a killer instinct that KG didn't even have. If he sticks with the Wolves thru the next 8 years, he will surpass KG as the best Wolves player ever imho, despite not ever being the dominant defender.

Chronz
03-22-2012, 09:55 PM
Its interesting to note that Mac won the award with Cowens winning 60 games in a league where only 1 other team won more than 49. The Wizards. Both teams had dominant bigmen yet the non winner won it. That one fits the criteria perfectly

Iodine
03-22-2012, 10:00 PM
One of Tim Duncans years he got MVP was superior statistically than Kidd but everybody thought Kidd deserved it. I think it should be a mix between team record, stats, and stats against other mvp candidates.

I wasn't mad when Rose got it last year because they had best record AND when they played other good teams he did his thing. His stats were solid enough. I wasn't mad the year Kobe got it over cp and bron. bron only had 47 wins. I guarantee if cp wouldve won that last game against Lakers, he wouldve got the award. He didn't, Lakers got no 1 seed, and history is history.

A certain mix of team record, overall stats, and stats against top competition should do it.

You mean when Kidd shot under 40% and lead a team in one of the weakest conferences since the 70's? The Year he was wasnt top 5 in win shares and had a below 500 TS% and eFG%? The year he led the league in TO's? Yeah he had a great defensive year that year but that doesnt win you MVP's

Iodine
03-22-2012, 10:07 PM
Moses Malone's 1978-79' MVP qualifies imo.

But Moses Malone is ****ing jesus.....

Hawkeye15
03-22-2012, 10:12 PM
Its interesting to note that Mac won the award with Cowens winning 60 games in a league where only 1 other team won more than 49. The Wizards. Both teams had dominant bigmen yet the non winner won it. That one fits the criteria perfectly

exactly. There wasn't the team win separation that Moses's season had, but it was prevalent, and fits the criteria of your question.

I still think Moses's 79' MVP runs away with this.

SteveNash
03-22-2012, 10:13 PM
Yes yes

moving on, your qualified to answer the title, how often would you say those mvps were hollow, since in your world stat leaders are detrimental to the game.

Never said that, just that stats don't tell the whole story.

Media started voting for the MVP after 1980, and it's gone downhill since then.

You brought up Jordan's first, but that was the whole PR move where he talked about winning DPOY before the season whining because he got left off the all defense teams.


I started an analysis of how the Wolves play on both sides when Rubio went down. They are already sliding on both sides. Not taking anything away from Love, I think he has the potential to be a future MVP candidate, but Rubio was huge for them, especially on defense.

Is that really valid though? Determining how valuable a player is by their backups?

Hawkeye15
03-22-2012, 10:25 PM
Is that really valid though? Determining how valuable a player is by their backups?

I didn't say it was to measure value. Its simply an experiment to try and see what kind of effect Rubio has with us and without us. But its imperfect, due to Pekovic and Beasley also going thru injuries, and a 9 out of 11 road trip. However, it does offer some data to look at the overall picture.

Meaze_Gibson
03-22-2012, 10:28 PM
You mean when Kidd shot under 40% and lead a team in one of the weakest conferences since the 70's? The Year he was wasnt top 5 in win shares and had a below 500 TS% and eFG%? The year he led the league in TO's? Yeah he had a great defensive year that year but that doesnt win you MVP's

lol His best players were Kenyon Martin, Keith Van Horn, and Kerry Kittles. Thats like Deron Williams now taking these nets to the top seed.

Boston still had a better team
Milwaukee had a better team
Indiana and arguably Philly had a better team...Nobody saw them Nets getting a top seed

Thats why he was a prime mvp. I don't really play the advanced statistics game because they are biased to offense. I dont care if he shot 30% and averaged 5 turnovers. That squad winning two years in a row was nothing short of amazing.

Hawkeye15
03-22-2012, 10:45 PM
lol His best players were Kenyon Martin, Keith Van Horn, and Kerry Kittles. Thats like Deron Williams now taking these nets to the top seed.

Boston still had a better team
Milwaukee had a better team
Indiana and arguably Philly had a better team...Nobody saw them Nets getting a top seed

Thats why he was a prime mvp. I don't really play the advanced statistics game because they are biased to offense. I dont care if he shot 30% and averaged 5 turnovers. That squad winning two years in a row was nothing short of amazing.

His best days also coincided with the east being as weak as its been in our lifetime, and he was always a liability when being forced to get his own. I love Kidd, I really do. But if he would have won MVP over Duncan that season, the award becomes exponentially even a bigger joke than it already is.

Crackadalic
03-22-2012, 10:48 PM
I think Finals MVP holds more merit IMO. The regular season MVP has become a joke the last couple years

Hawkeye15
03-22-2012, 10:49 PM
I think Finals MVP holds more merit IMO. The regular season MVP has become a joke the last couple years

Of course it does. That isn't the OP's question.

The last couple of years? Please.

Iodine
03-22-2012, 10:59 PM
lol His best players were Kenyon Martin, Keith Van Horn, and Kerry Kittles. Thats like Deron Williams now taking these nets to the top seed.

Boston still had a better team
Milwaukee had a better team
Indiana and arguably Philly had a better team...Nobody saw them Nets getting a top seed

Thats why he was a prime mvp. I don't really play the advanced statistics game because they are biased to offense. I dont care if he shot 30% and averaged 5 turnovers. That squad winning two years in a row was nothing short of amazing.
:laugh2:
So you don't look at advanced stat's because you don't understand them and think they are biased (I don't get that in the slightest but okay)

Oh and since you pretty much boiled down everything from my argument into lulz advanced stats lulz heres what happens when I turn your argument into "just win baby"
00-01: Tim Duncan (best record)
01-02: Chris Webber (best record)
02-03: Duncan and Dirk share co-MVP's since
03-04: Jermaine O'Neal
04-05: Nash
05-06: Chauncey Billups
06-07: Dirk
07-08: KG/PP
08-09: Bron
09-10: Bron
10-11: Rose

So when I boil down your argument like you did to mine, O'Neal, Webber, and Billups win MVP's and KG replaces the year he deserved it with the one he didnt.

Sweet thanks!

Crackadalic
03-22-2012, 11:01 PM
Of course it does. That isn't the OP's question.

The last couple of years? Please.

Your right its been decades of inconsistency :D

Hawkeye15
03-22-2012, 11:04 PM
Your right its been decades of inconsistency :D

at least bro haha

Aust
03-22-2012, 11:16 PM
A WHOLE lotta them