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Chacarron
03-22-2012, 01:28 PM
1) Lebron James
2) Dwight Howard
3) Andre Iguodala
4) Serge Ibaka
5) Tony Allen

http://espn.go.com/nba/story/_/page/NBADPOY-120321/#dpoy-rankings

NoahH
03-22-2012, 01:29 PM
Good choice ESPN ;)

P Styles
03-22-2012, 01:32 PM
fair enough

LongIslandIcedZ
03-22-2012, 01:32 PM
I wouldda changed the order around a bit, but that seems like a solid 5

sixer04fan
03-22-2012, 01:34 PM
I wouldda changed the order around a bit, but that seems like a solid 5

Agreed

CHANGO
03-22-2012, 01:34 PM
Yeah, I put that in the MVP thread. I'm fine with the first three, either of them can win it. My opinion was...


I don't agree, on the first three I give Howard the edge, but either have a pretty good case.

Lebron - He can guard all five positions, and he does that efficiently.
Dwight - Best deffensive big in the game his team is not very good defensively.
Iggy - Best wing defender in the league and holds his opponents to least PER.

Either of them can win it, and I'll be fine with it.

He115ing
03-22-2012, 01:55 PM
Bull crap!!! Where is Shumps?!?!?!?!?!!?

blastmasta26
03-22-2012, 02:08 PM
If LeBron gets both MVP and DPOY this year, no one will be surprised. He's having an incredible season.

NSJ
03-22-2012, 02:17 PM
I miss TA

D-Leethal
03-22-2012, 02:18 PM
LeBron deserves to win but the fact that Tyson Chandler isn't even mentioned is a travesty. I know our record sucks but our D has improved 20+ slots in nearly every category largely because of 1 man.

D-Leethal
03-22-2012, 02:19 PM
Joakim Noah should also be top 5.

naps
03-22-2012, 02:19 PM
Good list.

justinnum1
03-22-2012, 02:21 PM
Not bad, not sure i would put lebron at 1 but he is having a hell of a year.

akia83
03-22-2012, 02:21 PM
Not a big fan of Ibaka's D.
But Lebron deserve to be DPOY & MVP imo.

NSJ
03-22-2012, 02:23 PM
LeBron deserves to win but the fact that Tyson Chandler isn't even mentioned is a travesty. I know our record sucks but our D has improved 20+ slots in nearly every category largely because of 1 man.

I think Noah would have to edge Chandler out by a little bit if the list had continued to the top 10.

Swashcuff
03-22-2012, 02:29 PM
I'd put Andre Iguodala at #1 in all honesty. Our defense is #1 in the league and has been this entire season and its due in large part to Iguodala play on that end of the floor.

Celticsfan2007
03-22-2012, 02:37 PM
I'd be fine with any of the top 3 winning DPOY.

IMO, TA and Ibaka don't play enough MPG to deserve it. If they played 35+mpg I'd put them in the conversation though.

2-ONE-5
03-22-2012, 02:44 PM
hard to argue with the list. But ill be a homer and say Iggy should top the list. it really is a toss up but it would be nice to see a wing player like James or Iggy win it for a change.

tredigs
03-22-2012, 03:18 PM
http://http://www.82games.com/1112/1112PHI.HTM

^That "6.9" under 'Opponents Production' for Iggy is actually the lowest I've ever seen on that site. I'd like to know exactly how they calculate the number, but regardless that's insanely impressive. I remember seeing that Lebron's was in single digits himself (9's) and being really surprised.

I really haven't watched the Sixers too much this year, so how often would those who do say that Iggy defends multiple positions? The fact that Lebron has been shutting people down at 1-5 positons some nights (often multiple players on the same play) is what has been the most impressive feat to me.

Slug3
03-22-2012, 03:20 PM
I might get a little "heat" for this, but Howard to me gets way too much credit. Yes he is great at blocking shots on help D, but he guards probably the weakest position in basketball. What I mean by that is there are a lot of gifted PG, SG, SF, PF players in the league and there honestly is not that many Centers who are even decent in the offensive end in this league. I am not trying to say he is a bad defender, but I just think he gets overblow sometimes because the Center position outside a few players is very weak.

Shmontaine
03-22-2012, 03:23 PM
1. Chandler - the reason why the mavs won last year, and why the knicks are lockdown on d this year.
2. Shumpert - only a rookie and already the best defensive PG in the league!!
3. Melo - this latest win streak proves when he tries he can be the DPOY!!
4. Novak - his 3pt% is so good it's basically like having great defense!!
5. Lin - Has a legitimate shot but he got a lot of competition from guys 1-4...

tredigs
03-22-2012, 03:31 PM
Not a big fan of Ibaka's D.
But Lebron deserve to be DPOY & MVP imo.

Last year his defensive impact was overrated; despite having solid help D, he wasn't a good man defender. I've noticed a significant change in that this year though, the guy has come a long way in his iso D. And his paint protection and the QUALITY of his blocked shots are incredible. He's one of the best shot blockers I've ever seen and may end up being THE best in the modern era (leads the league by 1+ blocks despite playing 10mpg less than D. Howard [Brooks is an idiot], that's really impressive).

xILLN355
03-22-2012, 03:35 PM
1. Chandler - the reason why the mavs won last year, and why the knicks are lockdown on d this year.
2. Shumpert - only a rookie and already the best defensive PG in the league!!
3. Melo - this latest win streak proves when he tries he can be the DPOY!!
4. Novak - his 3pt% is so good it's basically like having great defense!!
5. Lin - Has a legitimate shot but he got a lot of competition from guys 1-4...

dont forget jared jefferies!!

phoenix_bladen
03-22-2012, 03:39 PM
what a joke without chandler on this list .......

NYKnickFanatic
03-22-2012, 03:44 PM
1. Chandler - the reason why the mavs won last year, and why the knicks are lockdown on d this year.
2. Shumpert - only a rookie and already the best defensive PG in the league!!
3. Melo - this latest win streak proves when he tries he can be the DPOY!!
4. Novak - his 3pt% is so good it's basically like having great defense!!
5. Lin - Has a legitimate shot but he got a lot of competition from guys 1-4...

You know how I know youre a troll?

You dont even mention Mike ****ing Bibby on that list! :facepalm:

RCarlson85
03-22-2012, 03:44 PM
It's nice to see that his defensive efforts are being noticed. While he may not be the shot blocker that Howard is, he is an amazing on-ball defender. He does block some shots and gets a lot of steals, but a lot of what he does doesn't always show up in the box score. He also has to be the most versatile defender since he's guarded everyone from PG to center.

Shmontaine
03-22-2012, 03:58 PM
You know how I know youre a troll?

You dont even mention Mike ****ing Bibby on that list! :facepalm:

LOL.. my bad... i forgot about the lebron-stopper!! duh... :D

NYKnickFanatic
03-22-2012, 04:02 PM
LOL.. my bad... i forgot about the lebron-stopper!! duh... :D

Its cool man. At least you can admit you are wrong. :p

Nyc4You
03-22-2012, 04:10 PM
1. Chandler - the reason why the mavs won last year, and why the knicks are lockdown on d this year.
2. Shumpert - only a rookie and already the best defensive PG in the league!!
3. Melo - this latest win streak proves when he tries he can be the DPOY!!
4. Novak - his 3pt% is so good it's basically like having great defense!!
5. Lin - Has a legitimate shot but he got a lot of competition from guys 1-4...

Always gotta bring the knicks in **** like this dont you. And because you think we don't play defensive, without watching us play, you try to be sarcastic. Like seriously, no one was talking about the knicks. FFS :facepalm:

NSJ
03-22-2012, 04:13 PM
I might get a little "heat" for this, but Howard to me gets way too much credit. Yes he is great at blocking shots on help D, but he guards probably the weakest position in basketball. What I mean by that is there are a lot of gifted PG, SG, SF, PF players in the league and there honestly is not that many Centers who are even decent in the offensive end in this league. I am not trying to say he is a bad defender, but I just think he gets overblow sometimes because the Center position outside a few players is very weak.

I hate Dwight but he does facilitate Orlando's team defense. They allow the 4 least ppg as a team and that's because Dwight allows his teammates the opportunity to cheat off their man a little more knowing that Dwight will be there to back him up. I think the C position being weak actually allows him to cheat off his own man as well to provide other players the help they need.


Noah should be on there.

JEDean89
03-22-2012, 04:15 PM
it would be nice to see dwight howard not win dpoy again

Shmontaine
03-22-2012, 04:16 PM
Always gotta bring the knicks in this dont you. Like seriously, no one was talking about the knicks. FFS :facepalm:

LOL.. always.. check my post history.. i have like 5 posts regarding the knicks in total... i'm always talkin about them...

like seriously, talk to all the 'serious' knick fans and their 'serious' threads they've created on this forum in the past weeks...

knicks are back!!
woodson for coy!!
deepest bench in the league!!


that's not even taking into consideration everything before this season began, all the lin crap... and so on.. so, if you'd like me to be serious about the knicks, maybe the 'serious' knick fans should do the same...

D1JM
03-22-2012, 04:16 PM
Why doesn't anyone bring up the fact that lebron is surrounded by good defenders too? The heat have very good help defense. If you get by lebron you already have two defenders on top of you

Chronz
03-22-2012, 04:19 PM
Iggy has my vote

Hustla23
03-22-2012, 04:22 PM
Tyson Chandler has to be on this list.

The Knicks went from 23rd in the league in terms of defensive efficiency to 7th.

That's in a one year span.

The only other defensive type player we've added is Shumpert (Jeffries was more or less part of the team.)

That's too drastic of an overall defensive change to overlook.

Nyc4You
03-22-2012, 04:23 PM
LOL.. always.. check my post history.. i have like 5 posts regarding the knicks in total... i'm always talkin about them...

like seriously, talk to all the 'serious' knick fans and their 'serious' threads they've created on this forum in the past weeks...

knicks are back!!
woodson for coy!!
deepest bench in the league!!


that's not even taking into consideration everything before this season began, all the lin crap... and so on.. so, if you'd like me to be serious about the knicks, maybe the 'serious' knick fans should do the same...

Those "serious" knick fans have 30-50 posts max. Anyways w.e

Shmontaine
03-22-2012, 04:25 PM
Those "serious" knick fans have 30-50 posts max. Anyways w.e

indeed..

NYKnickFanatic
03-22-2012, 04:29 PM
LOL.. always.. check my post history.. i have like 5 posts regarding the knicks in total... i'm always talkin about them...

like seriously, talk to all the 'serious' knick fans and their 'serious' threads they've created on this forum in the past weeks...

knicks are back!!
woodson for coy!!
deepest bench in the league!!


that's not even taking into consideration everything before this season began, all the lin crap... and so on.. so, if you'd like me to be serious about the knicks, maybe the 'serious' knick fans should do the same...

To be fair, they really arent Knicks fans lol. Just trolls.

jsthornton7
03-22-2012, 04:32 PM
shane battier gets no love anywhere. he should have at least won this award once.

Shmontaine
03-22-2012, 04:39 PM
To be fair, they really arent Knicks fans lol. Just trolls.

Ha... fair enough... i was forecasting the pro knick ridiculousness that seems to be the happening in every single thread lately...

Longhornfan1234
03-22-2012, 04:41 PM
Wow where the **** is iman shumpert aka mr lock wade down

:facepalm:

Anyone can lock down Wade.

justinnum1
03-22-2012, 04:47 PM
:facepalm:

Anyone can lock down Wade.

:facepalm::facepalm:

Just pathetic.

003
03-22-2012, 04:53 PM
The best defender on the best defensive team in the league is Luol Deng. Just sayin.

MTL_123
03-22-2012, 05:06 PM
:facepalm:

Anyone can lock down Wade.

Damn r u a ugly *** girl that Wade rejected. U mad at him or something cuz every time u post something its always about how Wade sucks.

theSPECIALKID
03-22-2012, 05:06 PM
Deng continues to get disrespected... He's just as good as Iggy as a defender imo... LMAO at Tony Allen being on the list, but no Deng wtf...

Shmontaine
03-22-2012, 05:08 PM
The best defender on the best defensive team in the league is Luol Deng. Just sayin.

maybe the best 1-on-1 defender on the team, but the entire defensive scheme of the bulls is based on rotation and help defense... so, it severely diminishes the necessity/recognition of any one great 1-on-1 defender...

he deserves consideration for the all defensive team, i would say.. .

Kashmir13579
03-22-2012, 05:13 PM
Chandler has an argument for top 5. Deff top 10.

justinnum1
03-22-2012, 05:18 PM
Iggy is probably the best 1 on 1 defender in the league
Howard is the best help defender
Lebron is the best overall defender

imo

Which one has the biggest impact on there team? thats a tough one.

I think without howard the magic would suck on D, they dont really have a team defensive system, its pretty much let dwight do his thing when someone gets by

Iggy is a hell of a defender, he pretty much just locks down his opponent

LBJ focusses on help D and is very disruptive as part of the team defense. He does help off his man too often but his versatility on defense is truly amazing. He can go from guarding the PG to the Center, and do it all effectively, and efficiently. tho his man to man has certainly improved, when he locks in on someone he can shut them down no doubt.

I wont be upset if either of those guys win it

NYtilIdie
03-22-2012, 05:22 PM
I think you can switch Ibaka and Josh Smith, but its a solid list.

tredigs
03-22-2012, 05:22 PM
Deng continues to get disrespected... He's just as good as Iggy as a defender imo... LMAO at Tony Allen being on the list, but no Deng wtf...

Other than you being from Chicago, do you have any argument why this is the case?

Raph12
03-22-2012, 05:25 PM
No way Lebron should win it over Dwight or Iggy... Dwight leads the league in DWS and Drtg (both by good margins) and the Magic are #1 in the league in paint protection. Iggy guards the opposing team's best player, all game, each and every night and does it better than anyone league-wide.

Now you can effectively say, Lebron is being overrated.

CudiOnMyiPod
03-22-2012, 05:52 PM
LMAO Marion isn't even mentioned... He's held Kobe to 28% shooting and under 20 ppg this season. Held Kobe to 0 points in one game when he guarded him. Held Caron Butler to 0 points at the beginning of the year when Caron was hot. Pierce and Allen scored in single digits for the first time in many years. Marion guarded both at times and Pierce the most. Marion has guarded Chris Paul, Kevin Love, LaMarcus Aldridge, Rajon Rondo, LeBron James, Kevin Durant, Ty Lawson, Kobe Bryant and has locked them all down when he has guarded them.

Raps08-09 Champ
03-22-2012, 06:13 PM
I think Howard wins it.

Though a Hakeem season would be awesome(MVP, DPOY, and Finals MVP in the same season).

Swashcuff
03-22-2012, 09:05 PM
LMAO Marion isn't even mentioned... He's held Kobe to 28% shooting and under 20 ppg this season. Held Kobe to 0 points in one game when he guarded him. Held Caron Butler to 0 points at the beginning of the year when Caron was hot. Pierce and Allen scored in single digits for the first time in many years. Marion guarded both at times and Pierce the most. Marion has guarded Chris Paul, Kevin Love, LaMarcus Aldridge, Rajon Rondo, LeBron James, Kevin Durant, Ty Lawson, Kobe Bryant and has locked them all down when he has guarded them.

Damn you're a homer to seriously say Marion shuts down those players is quite puzzling. This entire post is extremely puzzling.

Baller1
03-22-2012, 10:25 PM
1. Iggy
2. Lebron
3. Dwight
4. Ibaka
5. Chandler

Jenceman
03-22-2012, 10:34 PM
I'd go Iguodala, then James, but nothing wrong with James

Punk
03-22-2012, 10:46 PM
I think Noah would have to edge Chandler out by a little bit if the list had continued to the top 10.

Noah didn't take the Bulls from a 28th and 22nd in terms of numbers to a team with 13th and 8th in those defensive categories in 1 season.

No offense to Noah or bulls fans. You guys are great due to your coach not the players individually.

CudiOnMyiPod
03-22-2012, 11:01 PM
Damn you're a homer to seriously say Marion shuts down those players is quite puzzling. This entire post is extremely puzzling.

But you saying Iggy is #1 isn't being a homer?

Pierce: 2-5 FG 7 points in 30 min
Kobe: 7-22 FG 14 points in 38 min. His previous 4 games, 48, 40, 42, 42.
Butler: 1-12 FG 2 points in 36 min.
Harris: 0-7 FG 1 point in 27 min.
Lawson: 5-16 FG
Holiday: 0-9 FG 3 points in 32 min.
Kobe: 4-15 FG 15 points, 7 TO in 38 min.

The one game Marion is out, Kobe scores 30.

Whenever he has guarded bigs like Aldridge and Love, he has held his own.

Durant has been good this year but besides this year, Marion holds Durant to his 2nd lowest PPG and lowest FG%.

But I'm a homer...

adamsison
03-22-2012, 11:27 PM
1. Iggy
2.tyson chandler
3.dwight Howard
4.luol deng
5.lebron James/Shawn Marion

I out James and deng 4 and 5 because they have good defenders all around them.

LA_Raiders
03-22-2012, 11:41 PM
Bspn

Raph12
03-23-2012, 12:01 AM
1. Iggy
2. Lebron
3. Dwight
4. Ibaka
5. Chandler

Really? Lebron over Dwight?... I don't care to dispute with the homers but I expect more from you. Iggy has a case, he's the best defender on the #1 rated defensive team in the league. Lebron does not; Dwight leads the league in DWS and Drtg by a lot, his team is #1 in paint protection (pts in the paint allowed per 100 possessions) and he literally turns slashers into jumpshooters (I don't think it's a coincidence that Lebron has had his three worst games, scoring-wise, of the season against the Magic).

In comparison, Battier and Wade tend to guard the opposing team's best player most of the time, with Lebron switching in the clutch. Plus the team has barely gotten better defensively from the season prior to Lebron joining them, the Heat were 6th defensively in 2010 and were 5th last season; his ability defensively shouldn't be rewarded, his performance should... With that in mind, no way you give Lebron the nod over Dwight, I can't see one logical explanation as to why you'd rank him ahead.

Losoway
03-23-2012, 12:16 AM
tyson chandler should be on there ...and ibake should be number 1

dwight hasnt even been really that crazy on defensive like he was last year smh

JLynn943
03-23-2012, 01:01 AM
http://http://www.82games.com/1112/1112PHI.HTM

^That "6.9" under 'Opponents Production' for Iggy is actually the lowest I've ever seen on that site. I'd like to know exactly how they calculate the number, but regardless that's insanely impressive. I remember seeing that Lebron's was in single digits himself (9's) and being really surprised.

I really haven't watched the Sixers too much this year, so how often would those who do say that Iggy defends multiple positions? The fact that Lebron has been shutting people down at 1-5 positons some nights (often multiple players on the same play) is what has been the most impressive feat to me.

I'd like to direct your attention to Luke Walton http://www.82games.com/1112/1112LAL.HTM

Walton for DPOY

smiddy012
03-23-2012, 01:08 AM
Joakim Noah should also be top 5.

**** no he shouldn't!! And this is coming from a Bulls fan. If any Bull should get any mention when it comes to defense it should be Deng.

C-Style
03-23-2012, 01:46 AM
IF Lebron wins it over Dwight, It will put the nail in the coffin to all these individual awards

5ass
03-23-2012, 01:48 AM
tyson chandler should be on there ...and ibake should be number 1

dwight hasnt even been really that crazy on defensive like he was last year smh

ibaka lets opposing PFs destroy him. hes not #1. Its Howard, bron, iggy IMO

C-Style
03-23-2012, 01:49 AM
According to Synergy Lebron ranks 195 in defense, while Durant ranks 97. How can a guy ranking 195 in defense have so much hype? Its ridiculous!

5ass
03-23-2012, 01:51 AM
bron has a chance at DPOY, MVP and finals MVP.

BULLSFAN0810
03-23-2012, 01:54 AM
you guys are "STAR WHORES" if you look at the history of the game,the best players on the defensive end are usually Centers, and/or roll players


Dpoy:

Brewer from chicago* he is a known stopper
Jordan from Clips
Howard
A.I sixers
Deng bulls

There are a few more...

Misconceptions:LBJ isnt a stopper he is a weak side defender,meaning he comes from blindside to block. He has gotten burned by Jj Barrea...Jason Terry ...JL3...if you noticed all subs. but i give him a nod.

really its Brewer. this guy is a known stopper and he is having a dpoy type year.A.i bc the 6ersare doing well,and perimeter player imo are very valuable. then Howard

BULLSFAN0810
03-23-2012, 01:55 AM
According to Synergy Lebron ranks 195 in defense, while Durant ranks 97. How can a guy ranking 195 in defense have so much hype? Its ridiculous!

+1 read my post above

Bos_Sports4Life
03-23-2012, 02:34 AM
the ONLY Logical answer is Howard

- #1 in DWS's for the 5th straight season

- #1 in DRtg for the 4th straight season

- #1 in defensive rebounds for the 5th straight season

Who else is even CLOSE too howard's overall impact on defense?

PatsSoxKnicks
03-23-2012, 02:45 AM
Other than you being from Chicago, do you have any argument why this is the case?

I actually do, even though I don't really like the Bulls. But I posted this in the Knicks forum. Deng was originally an afterthought until I actually looked up his #'s and it surprised me how great he's been. Anyways, the post:


Here are the respective synergy #'s of each defender in the top 5:


Tyson PPP Rank
Overall 0.82 146
Isolation 0.6 27
P&R Ball 0.67 -
Post-Up 0.73 51
P&R Roll 1.03 52
Spot-Up 1.08 281
Off Screen 0 -
Hand Off 0.25 -

Dwight PPP Rank
Overall 0.76 61
Isolation 0.61 31
Post-Up 0.75 66
P&R Roll Man 0.87 30
Spot-Up 0.78 50
Off Screen 1 -
Hand Off 0 -

Ibaka PPP Rank
Overall 0.84 185
Isolation 0.77 112
P&RBallHandler 0 -
Post-Up 0.86 124
P&R Roll Man 0.91 38
Spot-Up 0.88 102
Off Screen 0.58 -
Hand Off 2 -

Lebron PPP Rank
Overall 0.86 214
Isolation 0.51 8
P&R BallHa 0.81 111
Post-Up 0.95 -
P&R Roll Man 0.73 -
Spot-Up 1.07 272
Off Screen 0.97 80
Hand Off 0.57 -

Iggy PPP Rank
Overall 0.76 61
Isolation 0.77 112
P&RBallHandler 0.74 63
Post-Up 0.69 36
P&R Roll Man 0.58 -
Spot-Up 0.77 46
Off Screen 0.86 50
Hand Off 0.72 -

Tony Allen PPP Rank
Overall 0.81 127
Isolation 0.65 50
P&RBallHandler 0.61 20
Post-Up 0.87 -
P&R Roll Man 1.33 -
Spot-Up 1.01 218
Off Screen 1.09 99
Hand Off 0.24 -


Opponent (Counterpart) PERs:
Iggy- 6.9 (1st)
Lebron- 9.4 (3rd)
Dwight- 10.9 (15th)
Tony Allen- 11.6 (25th)
Ibaka- 11.7 (29th)
Chandler- 13.9 (70th)

Last defensive metric is Adjusted +/- for defense, which is basically +/- #'s but adjusted for the opponent and teammates. It does suffer from small sample sizes though. However, it does a good job of showing you the impact the player has on the overall team defense.


Adj Def +/- Rank
TonyA 1.9 3
Iggy 1.9 4
Dwight 1.0 31
Lebron 0.6 57
Tyson 0.3 114
Ibaka 0.2 119


It should probably come down to Lebron and Iggy for DPOY.

As for Tyson and Ibaka, if appears Tyson has got a legitimate gripe for being ranked behind Ibaka. Chandler makes a bigger impact according to +/- #'s and his synergy #'s are also better. He trails in opponent (counterpart) PER but that could be explained to him trying to help defend, making up for Amare's mistakes, whereas while Ibaka has to help defend too, he does have Perk behind him, which should allow him to guard his matchup better.

Tony Allen and Dwight should probably be 3rd and 4th, or at least out of these 5 players. Deng should be up there for DPOY too- he's been an outstanding defender:
9.6 counterpart PER, which ranks 4th.
1.8 Adjusted Defensive +/-, which ranks 5th


Deng PPP Rank
Overall 0.72 31
Isolation 0.51 8
P&RBallHandler 0.82 114
Post-Up 0.79 96
P&R Roll Man 0.15 -
Spot-Up 0.87 97
Off Screen 0.65 15
Hand Off 0.71 3


Ya know what, I think Deng deserves serious consideration for DPOY. The Bulls defense ranks 2nd in defensive efficiency too and his defensive #'s are excellent- probably the best of the bunch. Yet no one mentions him. Numbers wise, again, he probably has the edge over everyone, including Iggy and Lebron. He has a high impact on the Bulls defense (as evidenced by his Adj Defensive +/-) and he's one of the best one on one defenders in the league, no matter whether its his man or another man he's picking up (this shows through in both his synergy ISO defense and his counterpart PER defense). Basically, he's a versatile ISO defender, able to guard any position. He also appears to be great at fighting through screens and making sure the offensive player doesn't get a good shot off (his synergy off screen and hand off #'s are very good). If there is a weakness to his defense, I guess it would be guarding the P&R ball handler but even that is above average. He literally appears to have no defensive weaknesses, whether its playing great defensive team ball or locking down any offensive player. Underrated defender who should be top 5.

BULLSFAN0810
03-23-2012, 02:48 AM
the ONLY Logical answer is Howard

- #1 in DWS's for the 5th straight season

- #1 in DRtg for the 4th straight season

- #1 in defensive rebounds for the 5th straight season

Who else is even CLOSE too howard's overall impact on defense?

I can buy this...but Howard is very inconsistent on Defense...he plays when he wants...theres guys who actually play harder on a more consistent basis....

JNA17
03-23-2012, 03:04 AM
According to Synergy Lebron ranks 195 in defense, while Durant ranks 97. How can a guy ranking 195 in defense have so much hype? Its ridiculous!

This. Its astonishing how long espn keeps riding the king james train ever since his high school years.

Lebron in no way shape or form should win this, at all. Its an insult to actual great defenders currently like Dwight, Iggy, or hell even Ibaka.

Also where why is Josh Smith not on this list? Or Loul Deng even? Damn these Awards are becoming more meaningless by the day.

tredigs
03-23-2012, 03:22 AM
@PatsSox - thank you for that, that's exactly the type of post I'm looking to see - can always count on you for the quality.

I need to see more about how they're coming about some of those synergy #'s though, and then apply context as necessary. But it's important to see Deng among that group. And not surprising to see Iggy and Lebron there. Eye test shows us as much.

Ibaka @ 29th is surprising for opponents PER given how his bulk effectiveness is paint protection on weakside help. But like I said earlier his man d is massively improved and I wouldn't doubt if his opponents PER was in the mid hundreds last season. Do you have that on tap?

Raph12
03-23-2012, 03:45 AM
I can buy this...but Howard is very inconsistent on Defense...he plays when he wants...theres guys who actually play harder on a more consistent basis....

Irrelevant; Dwight still impacts the defensive end more than any player in the league... If you look at when MJ won the DPOY over guys like Hakeem and Malone, their defensive numbers were very close, Dwight's numbers stand out from the crowd. People don't even understand how much ground he actually covers defensively, guarding the pnr perfectly, guarding smaller players on switches, recovering to contest shots when they get the ball to his man and still recovering to collect the defensive rebounds better than anyone league-wide... There hasn't been this type of defensive presence, who recovers to rebound so well, since maybe Bill Russell (Big Ben would be as close as it gets though).

Dwight is head-and-shoulders the most impactful player on the defensive end and has been for the past 4 years.

tredigs
03-23-2012, 03:54 AM
Irrelevant; Dwight still impacts the defensive end more than any player in the league... If you look at when MJ won the DPOY over guys like Hakeem and Malone, their defensive numbers were very close, Dwight's numbers stand out from the crowd. People don't even understand how much ground he actually covers defensively, guarding the pnr perfectly, guarding smaller players on switches, recovering to contest shots when they get the ball to his man and still recovering to collect the defensive rebounds better than anyone league-wide... There hasn't been this type of defensive presence, who recovers to rebound so well defensively, since maybe Bill Russell (Big Ben would be as close as it gets though).

Dwight is head-and-shoulders the most impactful player on the defensive end and has been for the past 4 years.

Fair to say that you're biased based on the fact that you watch his defense almost predominantly compared to Iggy et al?...

HAVE to also consider that the center position is somehow the weakest it has ever been in our leagues history relative to other positions (and possibly period).

I'm having trouble finding a reason not to vote AI DPOY if I had a cast right now. But I'm still very open to both Lebron and Dwight for the right argument. Ibaka and the rest are sharing the fight for the 2nd seed at this point.

Raph12
03-23-2012, 04:11 AM
Fair to say that you're biased based on the fact that you watch his defense almost predominantly compared to Iggy et al?...

HAVE to also consider that the center position is somehow the weakest it has ever been in our leagues history relative to other positions (and possibly period).

I'm having trouble finding a reason not to vote AI DPOY if I had a cast right now.

Maybe I'm biased towards Dwight, but there is no way you can sit there and tell me Iggy impacts the defensive end more than Dwight does. Iggy guards one player and switches off from time to time, he also has very good help defense when he's beat. Doug Collins has done a great job with that team defensively, Iggy's defensive numbers have improved a lot with Doug at the helm.

As for the center position being weak; Bynum, Big Al, Noah, Hibbert, Monroe, Pekovic, Gortat, Cousins, Duncan, MGasol, Chandler, BLopez, etc all have PERs from 19-23; I wouldn't say that the center position is that much weaker than the other positions; especially not this season... The fact that Dwight can dominate the paint (Magic lead the league in paint protection) and recover to keep most of these guys in check, yet still lead the league (by a large margin) in defensive rebounding is astounding... Consider this; Dwight is the only center in the top 40 in OPP PER (Dwight's 15th; Bynum is next in line for centers at 41st).

Although I think Iggy is a great 1v1 defender, his iso PPP given up is only 0.77, good for 112th league-wide. I'd argue that the help defense he's gotten since Collins took over has helped boost his numbers.

tredigs
03-23-2012, 04:23 AM
Maybe I'm biased towards Dwight, but there is no way you can sit there and tell me Iggy impacts the defensive end more than Dwight does. Iggy guards one player and switches off from time to time, he also has very good help defense when he's beat. Doug Collins has done a great job with that team defensively, Iggy's defensive numbers have improved a lot with Doug at the helm.

As for the center position being weak; Bynum, Big Al, Noah, Hibbert, Monroe, Pekovic, Gortat, Cousins, Duncan, MGasol, Chandler, BLopez, etc all have PERs from 19-23; I wouldn't say that the center position is that much weaker than the other positions; especially not this season... The fact that Dwight can dominate the paint (Magic lead the league in paint protection) and recover to keep most of these guys in check, yet still lead the league (by a large margin) in defensive rebounding is astounding... Consider this; Dwight is the only center in the top 40 in OPP PER (Dwight's 15th; Bynum is next in line for centers at 41st).

Although I think Iggy is a great 1v1 defender, his iso PPP given up is only 0.77, good for 112th league-wide. I'd argue that the help defense he's gotten since Collins took over has helped boost his numbers.

Nice. But, none of them over 23 is somewhat telling enough, and the only truly offensive minded of the group (Brook Lopez) played like 5 games this season. No need to include the poor sap.

I like the opponents PER stat though, where do you get that? Link? I want to see how they break that down as well.

PS: Have you seen Iggy's OPP on 82games? ~6...? Unprecedented.

Raph12
03-23-2012, 04:38 AM
None of them over 23 is somewhat telling enough, and the only offensive minded of the group (Brook Lopez) played like 5 games this season. No need to include the poor sap.

I like the opponents PER stat though, where do you get that? Link? I want to see how they break that down as well.

PS: Have you seen Iggy's OPP on 82games? ~6...? Unprecedented.

Really? The only offensive minded of the group is Brook Lopez? So I guess Big Al, Gortat, Cousins and Monroe are defensive/rebounding specialists? Cmon man; Bynum, Duncan, Hibbert, MGasol and others are all very important parts of the offense as well... The center class isn't as great as the 90s center class, but no era was, that decade was just center dominated. Hell there isn't even one center with more than a 27% usage rate in the league anymore, the game is just played differently.

I don't remember exactly where I got the numbers, saw it in a blog a while ago on Orlandosentinel.com; I'll see if I could find the link tomorrow.

Iggy's OPP has improved drastically since Doug Collins took over; he was #1 last season as well at 9.8 (numbers got much better after Doug took over); but prior to Doug Collins, he had a 14.6OPP in 2008-09, a 13.0OPP in 2007-08, a 14.5OPP in 2006-07, etc, etc... His defensive numbers being this elite is more because of the system than anything else... He's a good defender, maybe even great, just not as good as some of those numbers suggest.

THE GIPPER
03-23-2012, 04:54 AM
I think Lebron should get it based on his defensive versatility. But I'd be totally fine with Dwight or Iggy winning as well.

Chronz
03-23-2012, 11:37 AM
Iggy's OPP has improved drastically since Doug Collins took over;
And his D has improved from great to epic because under Collins hes let go of the idea of being a main option offensively, and has focused everything on the aspects of the game he thrives in, hes continued his torrid defensive play from the Worlds.


His defensive numbers being this elite is more because of the system than anything else... He's a good defender, maybe even great, just not as good as some of those numbers suggest.

The system? Sounds like a copout to me, he is the system, when your best player chooses to work as hard as he does on a thankless aspect of the game like defense, it trinkles down to all your players, at least thats what the coaches like to say. Whether thats true or not its not as if he has world class bigs backing him up. And in a year like this, with Dwight trade talk hurting his and his teammates consistency, its enough to make a comparable impact from a down year by Dwight.

Dwight is the guy you build a defense around because there is no one like him, but Iggy is having a defensive year for the ages and should be rewarded this year.

xnick5757
03-23-2012, 11:50 AM
Top 10 (by DWS)

1.) Dwight Howard - 4.43
2.) Josh Smith - 3.71
3.) Iggy - 3.52
4.) Lebron - 3.23
5.) Boozer - 3.05
6.) Noah - 3.02
7.) Bynum - 2.95
8.) M. Gasol - 2.94
9.) Garnett - 2.86
10.) Brand - 2.84

BklynKnicks3
03-23-2012, 11:55 AM
tyson chandler should be on that list

Swashcuff
03-23-2012, 11:55 AM
Top 10 (by DWS)

1.) Dwight Howard - 4.43
2.) Josh Smith - 3.71
3.) Iggy - 3.52
4.) Lebron - 3.23
5.) Boozer - 3.05
6.) Noah - 3.02
7.) Bynum - 2.95
8.) M. Gasol - 2.94
9.) Garnett - 2.86
10.) Brand - 2.84

What exactly do this tell you?

BULLSFAN0810
03-23-2012, 12:06 PM
Irrelevant; Dwight still impacts the defensive end more than any player in the league... If you look at when MJ won the DPOY over guys like Hakeem and Malone, their defensive numbers were very close, Dwight's numbers stand out from the crowd. People don't even understand how much ground he actually covers defensively, guarding the pnr perfectly, guarding smaller players on switches, recovering to contest shots when they get the ball to his man and still recovering to collect the defensive rebounds better than anyone league-wide... There hasn't been this type of defensive presence, who recovers to rebound so well, since maybe Bill Russell (Big Ben would be as close as it gets though).

Dwight is head-and-shoulders the most impactful player on the defensive end and has been for the past 4 years.

Im sorry..i cant vote for Howard if i feel Howard doesnt play hard for DPOY... Hell he is the most dominate post defender Period; butthere are players who imo are right up there in Defense ability. DENG, BREWER,Andre Iggz,Jordan from Clips, Batum. And they bring it every night. So imo playing Hard is one of my requirements for DPOY. Reason, every DPOY to my recollection had that as tagg to their game.

Baller1
03-23-2012, 12:16 PM
Really? Lebron over Dwight?... I don't care to dispute with the homers but I expect more from you. Iggy has a case, he's the best defender on the #1 rated defensive team in the league. Lebron does not; Dwight leads the league in DWS and Drtg by a lot, his team is #1 in paint protection (pts in the paint allowed per 100 possessions) and he literally turns slashers into jumpshooters (I don't think it's a coincidence that Lebron has had his three worst games, scoring-wise, of the season against the Magic).

In comparison, Battier and Wade tend to guard the opposing team's best player most of the time, with Lebron switching in the clutch. Plus the team has barely gotten better defensively from the season prior to Lebron joining them, the Heat were 6th defensively in 2010 and were 5th last season; his ability defensively shouldn't be rewarded, his performance should... With that in mind, no way you give Lebron the nod over Dwight, I can't see one logical explanation as to why you'd rank him ahead.

Well yeah, of course Dwight dominates in all those areas. But I like Lebron's versatility being able to guard all five positions. Also, for whatever reason I don't get the sense that Dwight is as impactful in defense this season as past seasons.

So my reasoning simplified:
-Lebron's versatility
-His ability to lock down late in games
-Dwight not as impactful as previous seasons
-Maybe I'm just looking for a breath of fresh air from Dwight always winning :shrug:

(To be honest though, I really wouldn't care if Dwight won because he's still deserving; I just think Lebron and Iggy have been more impressive this season on that end.)

Cubby
03-23-2012, 12:24 PM
Always gotta bring the knicks in **** like this dont you. And because you think we don't play defensive, without watching us play, you try to be sarcastic. Like seriously, no one was talking about the knicks. FFS :facepalm:

Actually, your fellow fans brought the Knicks into this by saying Chandler should be on that list, which would be a complete joke.

Cubby
03-23-2012, 12:27 PM
Chandler should never, ever be on that list.

Swashcuff
03-23-2012, 12:38 PM
Chandler should never, ever be on that list.

Why?

nycsports2
03-23-2012, 12:55 PM
Bull crap!!! Where is Shumps?!?!?!?!?!!?

give it a yr or 2

Cubby
03-23-2012, 01:15 PM
give it a yr or 2

Why wait a year or two when he's already the GOAT now!?

Cubby
03-23-2012, 01:20 PM
Why?

Because the Knicks are still a mediocre defense with him as their "anchor." Dwight makes the Magic a near elite defensive team just by his presence alone and both teams have equally awful defenders around those two. He's not as good as LeBron, he's not as good as Iggy, he's not as good a Dwight, he's not as good as Deng, etc. He doesn't have the same impact as those guys defensively so why are Knicks fans all of a sudden grinding to get him on that list?

Top 10? Yeah probably, but sure as hell not top 5.

Zefflin
03-23-2012, 01:33 PM
I'll puke if lebron gets dpoy, i don't think he will tho.

Swashcuff
03-23-2012, 01:42 PM
Because the Knicks are still a mediocre defense with him as their "anchor." Dwight makes the Magic a near elite defensive team just by his presence alone and both teams have equally awful defenders around those two. He's not as good as LeBron, he's not as good as Iggy, he's not as good a Dwight, he's not as good as Deng, etc. He doesn't have the same impact as those guys defensively so why are Knicks fans all of a sudden grinding to get him on that list?

Top 10? Yeah probably, but sure as hell not top 5.

What on earth are you talking about?

The Knicks defense is better than the Magic's this season despite their 2nd best defensive player being Iman Shumpert and Amar'e and Carmelo playing even worst D than they did last season.

The Knicks from a lower 3rd defensive team to an upper 3rd while the Magic has gone from a top 3 to being outside of the top 10. How does that make the Knicks mediocre and the Magic near elite.

Apparently you don't understand that within the Magic defensive system their perimeter defenders are thought to channel their man into the path of Dwight if they aren't able to stay in front of him (hell sometimes they don't even bother to try). At least they have had a working defensive system in place for the greater part of the last 5 seasons.

The Knicks? Their focus wasn't even on D this season, hell even as impacting and Chandler has been his teammates seems not to have gotten the idea from Chandler thus making his job even harder and what he has helped the Knicks do defensively so much more impressive.

Chandler certainly deserves to be near the top 5.

Raph12
03-23-2012, 02:35 PM
What on earth are you talking about?

The Knicks defense is better than the Magic's this season despite their 2nd best defensive player being Iman Shumpert and Amar'e and Carmelo playing even worst D than they did last season.

The Knicks from a lower 3rd defensive team to an upper 3rd while the Magic has gone from a top 3 to being outside of the top 10. How does that make the Knicks mediocre and the Magic near elite.

Apparently you don't understand that within the Magic defensive system their perimeter defenders are thought to channel their man into the path of Dwight if they aren't able to stay in front of him (hell sometimes they don't even bother to try). At least they have had a working defensive system in place for the greater part of the last 5 seasons.

The Knicks? Their focus wasn't even on D this season, hell even as impacting and Chandler has been his teammates seems not to have gotten the idea from Chandler thus making his job even harder and what he has helped the Knicks do defensively so much more impressive.

Chandler certainly deserves to be near the top 5.

You act as if Shumpert is a poor defender, go through the roster and compare the defenders. The only other even decent defender on the Magic roster is QRich, who plays about 5-10mpg... The Magic are still #1 in the league in paint protection and Dwight leads the league in Drtg and DWS by a large margin, despite being 11th in Drtg, what does that tell you?


And his D has improved from great to epic because under Collins hes let go of the idea of being a main option offensively, and has focused everything on the aspects of the game he thrives in, hes continued his torrid defensive play from the Worlds.

He's always been a good defender, even on the 24th ranked Philly team in '10, he had a 14.6OPP; yet on the 14th ranked Philly defense in '09, he had an OPP of only 13.0... His numbers fluctuate with the team defense, last season the team was 7th and he had the #1 OPP in the league at 9.8 (leading Dwight by 0.1), this season they're #1 in the league and he has stood out from the pack.


The system? Sounds like a copout to me, he is the system, when your best player chooses to work as hard as he does on a thankless aspect of the game like defense, it trinkles down to all your players, at least thats what the coaches like to say. Whether thats true or not its not as if he has world class bigs backing him up. And in a year like this, with Dwight trade talk hurting his and his teammates consistency, its enough to make a comparable impact from a down year by Dwight.

Well I guess guys like Elton Brand, Jodie Meeks and Thaddeus Young are Top 10 defenders as well as their numbers would suggest. Iggy isn't the system, nor is he a product of the system, he was always a good defender; the system just inflates his numbers. Iggy's isolation PPP given up is 0.77, ranked 112th in the league, nothing special there... The Magic are still #1 in the league in paint protection and Dwight leads the league in Drtg and DWS by a large margin, despite the Magic ranking 11th in the league overall. Dwight does what he needs to do defensively, guys like Nelson, Redick, JRich, Hedo, Anderson, etc just aren't good enough to compete on the perimeter.


Dwight is the guy you build a defense around because there is no one like him, but Iggy is having a defensive year for the ages and should be rewarded this year.

I wouldn't be upset if Iggy won, I just don't see a valid case for Lebron like ESPN suggests. If Iggy wins, I wouldn't be surprised, he's the best defender on the best defensive team; if Lebron wins, it's because he's being overrated.


Well yeah, of course Dwight dominates in all those areas. But I like Lebron's versatility being able to guard all five positions. Also, for whatever reason I don't get the sense that Dwight is as impactful in defense this season as past seasons.

So my reasoning simplified:
-Lebron's versatility
-His ability to lock down late in games
-Dwight not as impactful as previous seasons
-Maybe I'm just looking for a breath of fresh air from Dwight always winning :shrug:

(To be honest though, I really wouldn't care if Dwight won because he's still deserving; I just think Lebron and Iggy have been more impressive this season on that end.)

Lebron's versatility works on a possession or two here and there; he doesn't play the opposing teams' best players until he absolutely needs to. If we're going to give it to someone else because Dwight won 3 years in a row, give it to Iggy, as he is more deserving. Lebron hasn't done that much defensively to deserve it over guys like Dwight or Iggy, Miami was elite before him (6th in 2009) and got a bit better with him (5th last season, 4th this season)... Like I said, it isn't about ability, it is about performance.

WSU Tony
03-23-2012, 02:37 PM
No room for Melo?


:)

Swashcuff
03-23-2012, 02:47 PM
You act as if Shumpert is a poor defender, go through the roster and compare the defenders. The only other even decent defender on the Magic roster is QRich, who plays about 5-10mpg... The Magic are still #1 in the league in paint protection and Dwight leads the league in Drtg and DWS by a large margin, despite being 11th in Drtg, what does that tell you?

That tells me that Tyson Chandler is having a profound impact on his team that to this moment hasn't bought into the idea of playing D to win. Shumpert is solid defensively but he hasn't been effective enough to even be considered a game changer. He isn't anywhere near the top defensive perimeter players and Landry who was solid on that end of the floor in his rookie season hasn't shown that ability this season.

The Magic being #1 in the league in terms of paint protection is more indicative of the respect other teams have for Dwight rather than their interior play.


He's always been a good defender, even on the 24th ranked Philly team in '10, he had a 14.6OPP; yet on the 14th ranked Philly defense in '09, he had an OPP of only 13.0... His numbers fluctuate with the team defense, last season the team was 7th and he had the #1 OPP in the league at 9.8 (leading Dwight by 0.1), this season they're #1 in the league and he has stood out from the pack.

You cannot forget that Andre Iguodala is a wing. A wing who's role in the team was much different in 09 than it is in 2012.


Well I guess guys like Elton Brand, Jodie Meeks and Thaddeus Young are Top 10 defenders as well as their numbers would suggest.

Please tell me Jodie Meeks is a typo. Because anyone who watches Philly basketball on a consistent enough level knows that he is a huge liability on that end of the floor for us. Brand is solid but by no means is he a game changed and Thaddeus Young causes mismatches but against bigger PFs is something ineffective on that end of the floor.

BIG worm
03-23-2012, 02:54 PM
lebron is good, but hes the only player in the league thats allowed to goaltend all day long and never get called. dwights a beast, he completely controls the inside.

Shmontaine
03-23-2012, 03:02 PM
lebron is good, but hes the only player in the league thats allowed to goaltend all day long and never get called. dwights a beast, he completely controls the inside.

can you provide some youtube links??? i don't exactly see him goaltend...

mjm07
03-23-2012, 03:05 PM
lebron is good, but hes the only player in the league thats allowed to goaltend all day long and never get called. dwights a beast, he completely controls the inside.

excellent point! :facepalm:

PatsSoxKnicks
03-23-2012, 04:26 PM
@PatsSox - thank you for that, that's exactly the type of post I'm looking to see - can always count on you for the quality.

I need to see more about how they're coming about some of those synergy #'s though, and then apply context as necessary. But it's important to see Deng among that group. And not surprising to see Iggy and Lebron there. Eye test shows us as much.

Ibaka @ 29th is surprising for opponents PER given how his bulk effectiveness is paint protection on weakside help. But like I said earlier his man d is massively improved and I wouldn't doubt if his opponents PER was in the mid hundreds last season. Do you have that on tap?

Opponents PER can be found on 82games: http://www.82games.com/1112/ROLRTG3.HTM

Here's last years: http://www.82games.com/1011/ROLRTG3.HTM

Thats now 2 years running that Iggy has led the league in Opponents PER.

Chronz told me earlier that the reason for the difference between 82games and Synergy is that because Synergy tracks all isolations (not just the guy you're matched up on, so if there's a switch, it'll track that) whereas 82games only looks at the counterparts PER (so if say Lebron was matched up vs. Iggy, it'd look at Iggy's PER for that game).

If you never said that Chronz, I apologize and maybe you can enlighten everyone as to why Synergy's and 82games #'s don't match up.

PatsSoxKnicks
03-23-2012, 04:33 PM
The #'s suggest that Dwight shouldn't be DPOY this year:

In fact, based on Adjusted defensive +/-, Iggy has been the more valuable defender to his team. The team is "more worse" with Iggy off the court then the Magic are with Dwight off the court. Granted, this can be affected by small sample sizes so this may have a lot of noise in it.


Here are the respective synergy #'s of each defender in the top 5:


Tyson PPP Rank
Overall 0.82 146
Isolation 0.6 27
P&R Ball 0.67 -
Post-Up 0.73 51
P&R Roll 1.03 52
Spot-Up 1.08 281
Off Screen 0 -
Hand Off 0.25 -

Dwight PPP Rank
Overall 0.76 61
Isolation 0.61 31
Post-Up 0.75 66
P&R Roll Man 0.87 30
Spot-Up 0.78 50
Off Screen 1 -
Hand Off 0 -

Ibaka PPP Rank
Overall 0.84 185
Isolation 0.77 112
P&RBallHandler 0 -
Post-Up 0.86 124
P&R Roll Man 0.91 38
Spot-Up 0.88 102
Off Screen 0.58 -
Hand Off 2 -

Lebron PPP Rank
Overall 0.86 214
Isolation 0.51 8
P&R BallHa 0.81 111
Post-Up 0.95 -
P&R Roll Man 0.73 -
Spot-Up 1.07 272
Off Screen 0.97 80
Hand Off 0.57 -

Iggy PPP Rank
Overall 0.76 61
Isolation 0.77 112
P&RBallHandler 0.74 63
Post-Up 0.69 36
P&R Roll Man 0.58 -
Spot-Up 0.77 46
Off Screen 0.86 50
Hand Off 0.72 -

Tony Allen PPP Rank
Overall 0.81 127
Isolation 0.65 50
P&RBallHandler 0.61 20
Post-Up 0.87 -
P&R Roll Man 1.33 -
Spot-Up 1.01 218
Off Screen 1.09 99
Hand Off 0.24 -


Opponent (Counterpart) PERs:
Iggy- 6.9 (1st)
Lebron- 9.4 (3rd)
Deng- 9.6 (4th)
Dwight- 10.9 (15th)
Tony Allen- 11.6 (25th)
Ibaka- 11.7 (29th)
Chandler- 13.9 (70th)

Last defensive metric is Adjusted +/- for defense, which is basically +/- #'s but adjusted for the opponent and teammates. It does suffer from small sample sizes though. However, it does a good job of showing you the impact the player has on the overall team defense.


Adj Def +/- Rank
TonyA 1.9 3
Iggy 1.9 4
Deng 1.8 5
Dwight 1.0 31
Lebron 0.6 57
Tyson 0.3 114
Ibaka 0.2 119


It should probably come down to Lebron and Iggy for DPOY.

As for Tyson and Ibaka, if appears Tyson has got a legitimate gripe for being ranked behind Ibaka. Chandler makes a bigger impact according to +/- #'s and his synergy #'s are also better. He trails in opponent (counterpart) PER but that could be explained to him trying to help defend, making up for Amare's mistakes, whereas while Ibaka has to help defend too, he does have Perk behind him, which should allow him to guard his matchup better.

Tony Allen and Dwight should probably be 3rd and 4th, or at least out of these 5 players. Deng should be up there for DPOY too- he's been an outstanding defender:
9.6 counterpart PER, which ranks 4th.
1.8 Adjusted Defensive +/-, which ranks 5th


Deng PPP Rank
Overall 0.72 31
Isolation 0.51 8
P&RBallHandler 0.82 114
Post-Up 0.79 96
P&R Roll Man 0.15 -
Spot-Up 0.87 97
Off Screen 0.65 15
Hand Off 0.71 3


Ya know what, I think Deng deserves serious consideration for DPOY. The Bulls defense ranks 2nd in defensive efficiency too and his defensive #'s are excellent- probably the best of the bunch. Yet no one mentions him. Numbers wise, again, he probably has the edge over everyone, including Iggy and Lebron. He has a high impact on the Bulls defense (as evidenced by his Adj Defensive +/-) and he's one of the best one on one defenders in the league, no matter whether its his man or another man he's picking up (this shows through in both his synergy ISO defense and his counterpart PER defense). Basically, he's a versatile ISO defender, able to guard any position. He also appears to be great at fighting through screens and making sure the offensive player doesn't get a good shot off (his synergy off screen and hand off #'s are very good). If there is a weakness to his defense, I guess it would be guarding the P&R ball handler but even that is above average. He literally appears to have no defensive weaknesses, whether its playing great defensive team ball or locking down any offensive player. Underrated defender who should be top 5.

This might sound crazy but I think there's a good case to be made that it should come down to Deng and Iggy with maybe the slight nod to Iggy. Despite the Bulls having a bunch of very good defenders, Deng still has a high impact on the Bulls defense, as he's got the 5th best Adjusted Defensive +/-. Deng also ranked very well in this metric last year, so its not as if its a 1 year fluke. Ultimately, I think Iggy does deserve it. He's got a high impact on the Sixers defense, he plays outstanding team defense, can lock down the opposing SF.

As for Dwight, he's having a down year across the board. Both his Adjusted defensive +/- and counterpart PERs are down from last year (both are much down) and while his synergy #'s are great, he doesn't rank in the top 10 in any of the different synergy plays. In addition, his synergy #'s are all down from last year too (ranked 42nd in overall D last year, 109 in iso's, 55th in Post Up's, 23rd in P&R Roll Man and 47th in Spot Ups shots. Only thing that is an improvement from last year is his iso defense).

There's actually a case to be made for another defender this year and I don't think Dwight should win DPOY.

BIG worm
03-23-2012, 04:45 PM
youtube links. gtfo

Raph12
03-23-2012, 05:27 PM
That tells me that Tyson Chandler is having a profound impact on his team that to this moment hasn't bought into the idea of playing D to win. Shumpert is solid defensively but he hasn't been effective enough to even be considered a game changer. He isn't anywhere near the top defensive perimeter players and Landry who was solid on that end of the floor in his rookie season hasn't shown that ability this season.

No it tells me that Mike Woodson has had a profound impact on the Knicks team that to this moment hadn't bought into the idea of playing D to win. Chandler hasn't been a gamechanger, actually if you go by +/-, the Knicks defense has been worse with Chandler on (102.8Drtg) vs without him (98.1Drtg). Now you could argue that the bench plays against the opposing team's bench which is why their numbers are better; but both Dwight and Iggy's teams are considerably better with them on the floor vs off... It has been Mike Woodson's defensive schemes that have turned the Knicks into a significantly better defensive team; hell the Mavs are much better defensively this year than they were last year with Chandler.


The Magic being #1 in the league in terms of paint protection is more indicative of the respect other teams have for Dwight rather than their interior play.

Irrelevant why they're #1, the point is that Dwight impacts the oppossing teams significantly. He turns guys like Lebron, Wade, Rose, etc into jumpshooters, these are intangibles that stats just can't measure.


You cannot forget that Andre Iguodala is a wing. A wing who's role in the team was much different in 09 than it is in 2012.

Doesn't explain why his isolation defense on synergy is mediocre at best (0.77PPP given up; ranked 112th).


Please tell me Jodie Meeks is a typo. Because anyone who watches Philly basketball on a consistent enough level knows that he is a huge liability on that end of the floor for us. Brand is solid but by no means is he a game changed and Thaddeus Young causes mismatches but against bigger PFs is something ineffective on that end of the floor.

I agree, those guys are decent-to-good defenders at best, but the numbers suggest that they too are elite. It's the team defense that makes their numbers look better than they actually are... Help defense is very key in defensive numbers.


Opponents PER can be found on 82games: http://www.82games.com/1112/ROLRTG3.HTM

Here's last years: http://www.82games.com/1011/ROLRTG3.HTM

Thats now 2 years running that Iggy has led the league in Opponents PER.

Both years Doug Collins was coaching the team; prior to Doug taking over, Iggy's numbers were good (13-14.5OPP), but not elite... I think it's more a product of the system than just his individual defense.


Chronz told me earlier that the reason for the difference between 82games and Synergy is that because Synergy tracks all isolations (not just the guy you're matched up on, so if there's a switch, it'll track that) whereas 82games only looks at the counterparts PER (so if say Lebron was matched up vs. Iggy, it'd look at Iggy's PER for that game).

If you never said that Chronz, I apologize and maybe you can enlighten everyone as to why Synergy's and 82games #'s don't match up.

If that is true, than it means Iggy is just receiving great help defense, because his isolation numbers on synergy can only be described as mediocre at best (0.77PPP given up; ranked 112th). It would also explain why guys like Jodie Meeks and Jason Terry are in the top 10 for OPP.

PatsSoxKnicks
03-23-2012, 05:53 PM
No it tells me that Mike Woodson has had a profound impact on the Knicks team that to this moment hadn't bought into the idea of playing D to win. Chandler hasn't been a gamechanger, actually if you go by +/-, the Knicks defense has been worse with Chandler on (102.8Drtg) vs without him (98.1Drtg). Now you could argue that the bench plays against the opposing team's bench which is why their numbers are better; but both Dwight and Iggy's teams are considerably better with them on the floor vs off... It has been Mike Woodson's defensive schemes that have turned the Knicks into a significantly better defensive team; hell the Mavs are much better defensively this year than they were last year with Chandler.


Chandler's numbers are a bit deceiving. A lot of his minutes come with Carmelo and Amare, therefore influencing his +/- negatively. And the Knicks have some of their better defenders coming off the bench (Shumpert).

However, Hollinger does a great job in this article of looking at even more detailed numbers and looking past the deceiving numbers to uncover Chandler's true impact.

http://insider.espn.go.com/nba/story/_/page/PERDiem-120306/nba-comes-tyson-chandler-numbers-tell-entire-story

It's an Insider article so if you don't get it, I can PM it to you. Unfortunately, I don't think I'm allowed to post Insider article.

Regardless, Chandler obviously does not have the same impact defensively that Dwight has.

Raph12
03-23-2012, 06:19 PM
Chandler's numbers are a bit deceiving. A lot of his minutes come with Carmelo and Amare, therefore influencing his +/- negatively. And the Knicks have some of their better defenders coming off the bench (Shumpert).

However, Hollinger does a great job in this article of looking at even more detailed numbers and looking past the deceiving numbers to uncover Chandler's true impact.

http://insider.espn.go.com/nba/story/_/page/PERDiem-120306/nba-comes-tyson-chandler-numbers-tell-entire-story

It's an Insider article so if you don't get it, I can PM it to you. Unfortunately, I don't think I'm allowed to post Insider article.

Regardless, Chandler obviously does not have the same impact defensively that Dwight has.

Wasn't implying he hasn't affected the team's defense at all, I was saying that the Knicks defense as a team got better because of Mike Woodson... If Tyson was the driving factor for the Knicks improved defense, can you explain why the Mavs have gotten better this season without Tyson?

tredigs
03-23-2012, 06:26 PM
Chandler's numbers are a bit deceiving. A lot of his minutes come with Carmelo and Amare, therefore influencing his +/- negatively. And the Knicks have some of their better defenders coming off the bench (Shumpert).

However, Hollinger does a great job in this article of looking at even more detailed numbers and looking past the deceiving numbers to uncover Chandler's true impact.

http://insider.espn.go.com/nba/story/_/page/PERDiem-120306/nba-comes-tyson-chandler-numbers-tell-entire-story

It's an Insider article so if you don't get it, I can PM it to you. Unfortunately, I don't think I'm allowed to post Insider article.

Regardless, Chandler obviously does not have the same impact defensively that Dwight has.

For anyone curious enough about ESPN Insider, I just did a little research and the best way to get it is to go through Amazon and purchase ESPN the Magazine (not a good magazine from what I hear, but whatever) for a year for $26. After the order is processed (just called them and apparently it takes until midnight for their online orders to go through) then you can get ESPN Insider for free for the year (or however long you have the magazine if you choose 6 months/2 year, etc).

So ESPN Insider for a year along with 24 ESPN the Magazines for $26. That was a good enough deal that I just did it.

PS if you wanna shoot me a PM in the interim wait period I've got here PatsSox that'd be cool.

PatsSoxKnicks
03-23-2012, 06:42 PM
Wasn't implying he hasn't affected the team's defense at all, I was saying that the Knicks defense as a team got better because of Mike Woodson... If Tyson was the driving factor for the Knicks improved defense, can you explain why the Mavs have gotten better this season without Tyson?

Thats explained in that article. A lot of it has to do with player pairs and how the Mavs have changed around their defense to minimize the amount of "bad" defenders on the floor at the same time.

I'll just PM you the article and we can continue this discussion afterwards.


For anyone curious enough about ESPN Insider, I just did a little research and the best way to get it is to go through Amazon and purchase ESPN the Magazine (not a good magazine from what I hear, but whatever) for a year for $26. After the order is processed (just called them and apparently it takes until midnight for their online orders to go through) then you can get ESPN Insider for free for the year (or however long you have the magazine if you choose 6 months/2 year, etc).

So ESPN Insider for a year along with 24 ESPN the Magazines for $26. That was a good enough deal that I just did it.

PS if you wanna shoot me a PM in the interim wait period I've got here PatsSox that'd be cool.

Will do.

Raph12
03-23-2012, 07:03 PM
Thats explained in that article. A lot of it has to do with player pairs and how the Mavs have changed around their defense to minimize the amount of "bad" defenders on the floor at the same time.

I'll just PM you the article and we can continue this discussion afterwards.

Nice read, after looking up some numbers (more gang rebounding defensively for a better DRB%; more aggressive defense makes sense with a higher team TOV% and a worse team FTA/FGA)... Chandler has affected both teams, but I'd love to look at those same numbers for guys like Dwight, Iggy and Deng.

PatsSoxKnicks
03-23-2012, 07:16 PM
Nice read, after looking up some numbers (more gang rebounding defensively for a better DRB%; more aggressive defense makes sense with a higher team TOV% and a worse team FTA/FGA)... Chandler has affected both teams, but I'd love to look at those same numbers for guys like Dwight, Iggy and Deng.

Yup, it'd be interesting to see those numbers for those guys, especially for Deng because I'm sure with him having a lot of good defenders on Chicago, his numbers are probably pretty consistent across the board- meaning that he may not ultimately mean as much to his team as those other 2 guys.

I found the most interesting aspect of the article is that the Mavs have simply tried to limit the number of minutes both Kidd and Terry play together, which in turn, helps them defensively. With Chandler last year, it seems like they were able to get away with that lineup a little more.

justinnum1
03-23-2012, 07:20 PM
Opponents PER can be found on 82games: http://www.82games.com/1112/ROLRTG3.HTM

Here's last years: http://www.82games.com/1011/ROLRTG3.HTM

Thats now 2 years running that Iggy has led the league in Opponents PER.

Chronz told me earlier that the reason for the difference between 82games and Synergy is that because Synergy tracks all isolations (not just the guy you're matched up on, so if there's a switch, it'll track that) whereas 82games only looks at the counterparts PER (so if say Lebron was matched up vs. Iggy, it'd look at Iggy's PER for that game).

If you never said that Chronz, I apologize and maybe you can enlighten everyone as to why Synergy's and 82games #'s don't match up.

Good stuff...battier is #2 and lebron is #3:cool:

lavilevi23
03-23-2012, 07:38 PM
Bron should win it.

Raph12
03-23-2012, 07:49 PM
Good stuff...battier is #2 and lebron is #3:cool:

And Jodie Meeks is 6th, with Jason Terry at 6th... Help defense is not accounted for, so just take everything with a grain of salt.


Yup, it'd be interesting to see those numbers for those guys, especially for Deng because I'm sure with him having a lot of good defenders on Chicago, his numbers are probably pretty consistent across the board- meaning that he may not ultimately mean as much to his team as those other 2 guys.

I found the most interesting aspect of the article is that the Mavs have simply tried to limit the number of minutes both Kidd and Terry play together, which in turn, helps them defensively. With Chandler last year, it seems like they were able to get away with that lineup a little more.

Having a big with the defensive IQ, length and athleticism of Tyson Chandler would help any team defensively. I'm more surprised that they've played even better without him this season, if they could've been this good, why didn't they tap into that earlier?

That's one of the biggest reasons why I think Dwight would win almost every season, just strictly because of the impact... If we're going to give it to someone else, it should definitely be Iggy IMO, I just think everyone should see both sides of the arguements first.

ManRam
03-23-2012, 07:58 PM
That's a solid 5. Not sure I agree on the order, but the 5 names are spot on.

smiddy012
03-23-2012, 08:04 PM
Top 10 (by DWS)

1.) Dwight Howard - 4.43
2.) Josh Smith - 3.71
3.) Iggy - 3.52
4.) Lebron - 3.23
5.) Boozer - 3.05
6.) Noah - 3.02
7.) Bynum - 2.95
8.) M. Gasol - 2.94
9.) Garnett - 2.86
10.) Brand - 2.84

Boozer for DMVP!

PatsSoxKnicks
03-23-2012, 08:16 PM
Having a big with the defensive IQ, length and athleticism of Tyson Chandler would help any team defensively. I'm more surprised that they've played even better without him this season, if they could've been this good, why didn't they tap into that earlier?

That's one of the biggest reasons why I think Dwight would win almost every season, just strictly because of the impact... If we're going to give it to someone else, it should definitely be Iggy IMO, I just think everyone should see both sides of the arguements first.

Are you referring to when Tyson was with the Mavs? Good question. Perhaps they felt they didn't need to gamble as much with Tyson there so rather than playing more of an attacking defense, they were focused on not getting beat. But obviously that type of defense worked for them in the playoffs (and maybe this attacking type of defense might not work as well this year in the playoffs).

I think the other key is that they've been able to hide Kidd and Terry more defensively this season (again, not playing them together as much) and last season, I would imagine they needed their offense so they were forced to play more minutes together. Although, the Mavs still need their offense so not sure why the decreased time together on the floor.

Raph12
03-23-2012, 08:46 PM
Are you referring to when Tyson was with the Mavs? Good question. Perhaps they felt they didn't need to gamble as much with Tyson there so rather than playing more of an attacking defense, they were focused on not getting beat. But obviously that type of defense worked for them in the playoffs (and maybe this attacking type of defense might not work as well this year in the playoffs).

I think the other key is that they've been able to hide Kidd and Terry more defensively this season (again, not playing them together as much) and last season, I would imagine they needed their offense so they were forced to play more minutes together. Although, the Mavs still need their offense so not sure why the decreased time together on the floor.

I would assume that they'd be even more aggressive with Tyson there, considering if they're beat, they could count on him to erase their mistakes... Oh well, go figure.

justinnum1
03-25-2012, 08:09 PM
haberstroh
LeBron's the NBA's top iso defender (holds opponent to 19 FG% there); Kevin Durant's favorite play? The iso.

ichitownclowni
03-25-2012, 08:48 PM
If LeBron was not having this year I would say Ibaka but you know

TheIlladelph16
03-25-2012, 08:49 PM
Homer pick: Iggy all day err day


Lebron or Dwight are certainly just as deserving of the award though.

NJrockPD
03-25-2012, 09:01 PM
Noah is good on d, but why isn't Deng in the conversation?

Bin Laden
03-25-2012, 09:14 PM
Give it to Tony Allen

Zefflin
03-25-2012, 09:23 PM
Lebron ain't winning this, D12 or Iggy

JordansBulls
03-26-2012, 01:34 PM
Iggy should be #1 this year and I think Tony Allen should be 1st team this year as well.

Zefflin
03-26-2012, 01:51 PM
Yeah Tony Allen locked kobe and has been playing elite defense this year

Chacarron
03-26-2012, 02:14 PM
I think Iggy should win it but the award will probably go to Dwight or Bron Bron for being sexier names.

ManRam
03-26-2012, 04:22 PM
I think Iggy should win it but the award will probably go to Dwight or Bron Bron for being sexier names.

They have the sexier name, for sure. But if they win it, they'd still be pretty deserving. I too think Iggy has been slightly better than LeBron, but it's splitting hairs, especially when you consider who all LeBron can guard. And then there's Dwight, who has a more significant and game-changing impact on any defensive unit than any player in the league...

As long as one of those three wins, I'll be fine with it.

FrenchSunsFan
03-26-2012, 04:24 PM
Ibaka for me.

PatsSoxKnicks
03-26-2012, 05:52 PM
Here's a knock on Iggy's case:


The 76ers haven't won a single game decided by four or fewer points, going 0-8 in such contests. They've lost both their overtime games. In games decided by seven or fewer points, they're 2-14.

Ok, so you're wondering what that has to do with Iggy I'm sure. Well, a closer look into the 76ers reveals that it is their defense that is failing in the final minutes of close games.

76ers Defensive efficiency
Overall: 94.5 (1st)
Last five minutes, within 5: 107.5 (21st)

And don't forget, that the overall #'s include the last 5 minutes, within 5 #'s. So the difference is actually more drastic than it appears.

So the 76ers DEFENSE is significantly worse in crunch time.

http://www.nba.com/advancedstats/player.html#Andre-Iguodala|2738;year=201112;season=r;splitType=clutc h;splitValue=all

Iggy's DRtg takes a nose dive in the clutch- being 10% worse than his normal AVG. It goes from 93.7 to 107.5. Yikes.

So should a player, who's teams' defense collapses in crunch time be considered for DPOY? I think its an interesting question because Iggy does have dominating defensive #'s and the clutch time is a small sample size. However, so many people/fans sit there and glorify/vilify players for how they perform in the clutch. If people are going to complain about Lebron's offense in the clutch, why shouldn't you complain about Iggy's defense in the clutch? Not saying that either is appropriate but it'd be a double standard.

I think Iggy is still deserving but its interesting to see the 76ers defensive issues in clutch time.

justinnum1
03-26-2012, 05:55 PM
Here's a knock on Iggy's case:



Ok, so you're wondering what that has to do with Iggy I'm sure. Well, a closer look into the 76ers reveals that it is their defense that is failing in the final minutes of close games.

76ers Defensive efficiency
Overall: 94.5 (1st)
Last five minutes, within 5: 107.5 (21st)

And don't forget, that the overall #'s include the last 5 minutes, within 5 #'s. So the difference is actually more drastic than it appears.

So the 76ers DEFENSE is significantly worse in crunch time.

http://www.nba.com/advancedstats/player.html#Andre-Iguodala|2738;year=201112;season=r;splitType=clutc h;splitValue=all

Iggy's DRtg takes a nose dive in the clutch- being 10% worse than his normal AVG. It goes from 93.7 to 107.5. Yikes.

So should a player, who's teams' defense collapses in crunch time be considered for DPOY? I think its an interesting question because Iggy does have dominating defensive #'s and the clutch time is a small sample size. However, so many people/fans sit there and glorify/vilify players for how they perform in the clutch. If people are going to complain about Lebron's offense in the clutch, why shouldn't you complain about Iggy's defense in the clutch? Not saying that either is appropriate but it'd be a double standard.

I think Iggy is still deserving but its interesting to see the 76ers defensive issues in clutch time.
Very impressive analysis, do you have those clutch defensive numbers for bron and howard?

Also wouldnt drtg reflect more what the team is doing than what he's doing?

Never mind, i found it, lebron goes from 96drtg, to 99 in the clutch, and iggy goes from 93drtg to 107 in the clutch, very interesting.

Howards drtg improves from 98 to 93 in the clutch

PatsSoxKnicks
03-26-2012, 06:04 PM
Very impressive analysis, do you have those clutch defensive numbers for bron and howard?

Also wouldnt drtg reflect more what the team is doing than what he's doing?

Yup.

Lebron: http://www.nba.com/advancedstats/player.html#LeBron-James|2544;year=201112;season=r;splitType=clutch;s plitValue=all

Dwight: http://www.nba.com/advancedstats/player.html#Dwight-Howard|2730;year=201112;season=r;splitType=clutch; splitValue=all

And yes, DRtg would reflect more what the team is doing than what the individual is doing. I'm not sure if the DRtg on the pages is team DRtg or a players individual DRtg but either way DRtg is more of a team stat than an individual one.

But still, with that large of a decrease in DRtg for Iggy's team in the clutch, I would imagine that there must be some fault thrown his way.

Teeboy1487
03-26-2012, 06:13 PM
Durant MVP
Lebron DPOY

theheatles
03-26-2012, 06:27 PM
top 3 in any order

Chronz
03-26-2012, 09:14 PM
He's always been a good defender, even on the 24th ranked Philly team in '10, he had a 14.6OPP; yet on the 14th ranked Philly defense in '09, he had an OPP of only 13.0... His numbers fluctuate with the team defense, last season the team was 7th and he had the #1 OPP in the league at 9.8 (leading Dwight by 0.1), this season they're #1 in the league and he has stood out from the pack.
I never said he wasnt a good defender, I said he made the leap from great to epic.



Well I guess guys like Elton Brand, Jodie Meeks and Thaddeus Young are Top 10 defenders as well as their numbers would suggest.
I dont know of anyone here who has ever done a detailed analysis on league wide defensive stats. And you already know my stance on your use of statistical "evidence".


Iggy isn't the system, nor is he a product of the system, he was always a good defender; the system just inflates his numbers.
Your contradicting yourself , if his #'s are inflated then your saying hes a product of the system to some degree. Either way I dont see what your talking about.


Iggy's isolation PPP given up is 0.77, ranked 112th in the league, nothing special there...
Nothing special? Can you post the adjusted #'s?


The Magic are still #1 in the league in paint protection and Dwight leads the league in Drtg and DWS by a large margin, despite the Magic ranking 11th in the league overall. Dwight does what he needs to do defensively, guys like Nelson, Redick, JRich, Hedo, Anderson, etc just aren't good enough to compete on the perimeter.

Its Dwight so hes always going to have a case so long as hes inspired and athletic, but hes having a down year. I havent looked at the defensive stats to really decipher anything but DWS is a decent start. Id like to know the RAPM and other stats of the sort as well. Synergy is great but you have alot to account for.


I wouldn't be upset if Iggy won, I just don't see a valid case for Lebron like ESPN suggests. If Iggy wins, I wouldn't be surprised, he's the best defender on the best defensive team; if Lebron wins, it's because he's being overrated.
Agreed.

PatsSoxKnicks
03-26-2012, 11:27 PM
Its Dwight so hes always going to have a case so long as hes inspired and athletic, but hes having a down year. I havent looked at the defensive stats to really decipher anything but DWS is a decent start. Id like to know the RAPM and other stats of the sort as well. Synergy is great but you have alot to account for.


I posted the RAPM, counterpart PER and Synergy #'s a couple days ago: http://forums.prosportsdaily.com/showpost.php?p=21475467&postcount=103

What I found is that Deng deserves to be in consideration. However, I did use the no prior version of RAPM (so as to avoid having last years data affect this years) but obviously, that is the less accurate version. No way Dwight is that low if we have a bigger sample size.

Interested to hear what your thoughts are on the Sixers struggles in crunch time on the defensive end (I assume you read that Hollinger article?) and whether that should be a knock on Iggy. There's no evidence that I can find that says Iggy becomes a worse defender in crunch time but there's evidence that the 76ers become a worse team defensively. Considering he's one of the 5 guys on the floor and the most important defensive player for the Sixers, I would assume that his D is not living up to its overall billing.

However, we're obviously talking small sample sizes here so in the grand scheme of things, I don't think it should affect Iggy's candidacy. But it does appear to be a slight blemish, if that.

Birdmannn
03-26-2012, 11:32 PM
Dwight and Iggy are great choices.
Do either guard all 5 positions thou. I put Lebron a little higher just because I see him guarding the speedy 6 foot guard and the 7 foot center on any given game with success.

Raph12
03-27-2012, 02:02 AM
I never said he wasnt a good defender, I said he made the leap from great to epic.

The lockout, the system and his teammates' help defense just makes his numbers look that much better. He's an improved defender and one of the best in the league, if not the best perimeter defender, but his numbers have looked even better because of his teammates' help defense within Collins' system.


I dont know of anyone here who has ever done a detailed analysis on league wide defensive stats. And you already know my stance on your use of statistical "evidence".

Your stance doesn't matter to me, those guys being top 10-15 in OPP and Drtg and other stats like that, just point out the fact that team play/help defense is very key in those numbers.


Your contradicting yourself , if his #'s are inflated then your saying hes a product of the system to some degree. Either way I dont see what your talking about.

The system inflates his numbers, but he's still improved from before; his "epic" OPP numbers were non-existant prior to Doug Collins taking over... Help defense isn't ever accounted for.


Nothing special? Can you post the adjusted #'s?

I don't know where to find them, but considering that his iso defense is mediocre, while his OPP is league-best is very telling of how flawed some of these stats really are.


Its Dwight so hes always going to have a case so long as hes inspired and athletic, but hes having a down year. I havent looked at the defensive stats to really decipher anything but DWS is a decent start. Id like to know the RAPM and other stats of the sort as well. Synergy is great but you have alot to account for.

He's not having a "down year" individually, he's still doing what he does on the team, his teammates are just getting beat more often than they were previously (slower rotations, poor iso defense, etc). His RAPM isn't outstanding, but with guys like Dirk ahread of him, it's just another stat that has its flaws.

...

My point is this, Dwight's impact defensively is felt throughout the game, against each and every team; and that impact is more significant than any player's league-wide. With that being said, Iguodala has had a fantastic year defensively and is the best defender on the best defensive team... I don't mind if either of those guys win, I just don't want Lebron to win just because KD is most probable to win MVP.

Birdmannn
03-27-2012, 02:11 AM
The lockout, the system and his teammates' help defense just makes his numbers look that much better. He's an improved defender and one of the best in the league, if not the best perimeter defender, but his numbers have looked even better because of his teammates' help defense within Collins' system.



Your stance doesn't matter to me, those guys being top 10-15 in OPP and Drtg and other stats like that, just point out the fact that team play/help defense is very key in those numbers.



The system inflates his numbers, but he's still improved from before; his "epic" OPP numbers were non-existant prior to Doug Collins taking over... Help defense isn't ever accounted for.



I don't know where to find them, but considering that his iso defense is mediocre, while his OPP is league-best is very telling of how flawed some of these stats really are.



He's not having a "down year" individually, he's still doing what he does on the team, his teammates are just getting beat more often than they were previously (slower rotations, poor iso defense, etc). His RAPM isn't outstanding, but with guys like Dirk ahread of him, it's just another stat that has its flaws.

...

My point is this, Dwight's impact defensively is felt throughout the game, against each and every team; and that impact is more significant than any player's league-wide. With that being said, Iguodala has had a fantastic year defensively and is the best defender on the best defensive team... I don't mind if either of those guys win, I just don't want Lebron to win just because KD is most probable to win MVP.


To hard to read with your sig there. Top one that is.

D1JM
03-27-2012, 02:28 AM
dwight, no questions asked. he is the orlando magic defense. the other two guys have great help defense behind them.

Chronz
03-27-2012, 11:35 AM
The lockout, the system and his teammates' help defense just makes his numbers look that much better. He's an improved defender and one of the best in the league, if not the best perimeter defender, but his numbers have looked even better because of his teammates' help defense within Collins' system.
The lockout would effect everyone tho, and his teammates arent elite defenders. Hes carrying the system like hes never done so before, making his teammates better, and its a result of his role change more than anything. Doug C wanted him to abandon the idea of being a #1 option and continue playing the way he has been throughout the WC, where his level of defense was raved about. He continued that mentality and Collins has utilized his defense to the fullest.



Your stance doesn't matter to me, those guys being top 10-15 in OPP and Drtg and other stats like that, just point out the fact that team play/help defense is very key in those numbers.

Well that doesnt surprise me, its why I said looking at those #'s is a decent start, its better than looking at stl/blks. And your opinion of my stance is irrelevant, its been proven your willing to lie to make sense of #'s and you dont strike me as someone whos looked over the #'s in depth. If Im wrong so be it but Ill take my chances.


The system inflates his numbers, but he's still improved from before; his "epic" OPP numbers were non-existant prior to Doug Collins taking over... Help defense isn't ever accounted for.
LOL you havent proven anything tho and why would I expect his epic defense to exist before when Im saying defense has improved to a whole other level now that his role has changed. And help defense isnt accounted for Iggy or anyone else with the stats you referenced so its a moot point.



I don't know where to find them, but considering that his iso defense is mediocre, while his OPP is league-best is very telling of how flawed some of these stats really are.

Explain. I think we might be on the same page here but what correlation did you spot?
Anyways, how do you know if his Iso defense is truly mediocre? And you do realize your speaking about a single aspect of defense that accounts for a pretty small part of all defensive possessions. I like what your doing, trying to compartmentalize all aspects of defense but when you dwindle the data like that you should really look into the adjusted rates. There might be something worth noting.


He's not having a "down year" individually, he's still doing what he does on the team, his teammates are just getting beat more often than they were previously (slower rotations, poor iso defense, etc). His RAPM isn't outstanding, but with guys like Dirk ahread of him, it's just another stat that has its flaws.
HUH? Dirk has a higher DRAPM? Is that true, I cant find the 2012 RAPM so if you have a leg up on me congrats, I may have underestimated your devotion to this subject.
If your speaking about overall RAPM then how is that a flaw? Because it doesnt agree with your opinion? So which stats are we allowed to use? Unaltered, un-reviewed stats? And I disagree about him not having a down year, it used to be thought that he could carry a defense no matter who was around him, youve echoed as much yourself and now that his team has slipped all of a sudden his teammates are poorer than poor. If true I dont think he can be absolved of the blame given his off-court distractions.



My point is this, Dwight's impact defensively is felt throughout the game, against each and every team; and that impact is more significant than any player's league-wide. With that being said, Iguodala has had a fantastic year defensively and is the best defender on the best defensive team... I don't mind if either of those guys win, I just don't want Lebron to win just because KD is most probable to win MVP.
Yes, thats the point thats been made by every Dwight supporter for the past 4-5 years, he isnt some mystery. I still think Iggy/Deng have had comparable impact. Like I said its not based on anything substantial so Im not trashing the Dwight pick, Im only questioning your complaints against Iggy.

Chronz
03-27-2012, 12:18 PM
I posted the RAPM, counterpart PER and Synergy #'s a couple days ago: http://forums.prosportsdaily.com/showpost.php?p=21475467&postcount=103
What I found is that Deng deserves to be in consideration. However, I did use the no prior version of RAPM (so as to avoid having last years data affect this years) but obviously, that is the less accurate version. No way Dwight is that low if we have a bigger sample size.

Interested to hear what your thoughts are on the Sixers struggles in crunch time on the defensive end (I assume you read that Hollinger article?) and whether that should be a knock on Iggy. There's no evidence that I can find that says Iggy becomes a worse defender in crunch time but there's evidence that the 76ers become a worse team defensively. Considering he's one of the 5 guys on the floor and the most important defensive player for the Sixers, I would assume that his D is not living up to its overall billing.

However, we're obviously talking small sample sizes here so in the grand scheme of things, I don't think it should affect Iggy's candidacy. But it does appear to be a slight blemish, if that.

RAPM or Adj +/-? I cant find RAPM for 2012 though I think I might have but its not labeled, J.E. hasnt posted them under his official page.

If its true and up to date then Iggy has a +3.5 RAPM vs +3.4 for Dwight. Deng is at +4.1, which crushes everyone. By Advanced +/- Dwight leads the league. When it comes to +/- those are 3/4 that I favor, I think overall Dwight may have the best case but if theres ever a year for a swing to get it, its this year. Either Iggy or Deng deserve it.


BTW a poster (EvanZ) from another site (I think you know which one) runs a blog that has his own +/- (ezPM) and 4-Factors that are pretty informative: thecity2.com IIRC

And in case you didnt know, J.E. has extended his +/- research to include teammate comparisons: http://stats-for-the-nba.appspot.com/ranking_rec

Its not adjusted in anyway so it wont consider the strength of the opposition. Still interesting stuff to review, some suggest it could be used for a player dependency rating, like Dirk has 10 teammates who cant lead similar lineups to his efficiency levels, which sounds obvious but you do come across results like Dwight and Ryan Anderson having completely different success rates with the same lineups and its not in the direction you would think.

Glen Davis is just horrible: http://stats-for-the-nba.appspot.com/pm/675.html

I know its unfair to compare a role player to a star but you would half expect him to outrank someone just by chance.

As for Iggy and his clutch defense, I made a thread on it but someone mentioned the lineups are completely different in the clutch. A similar analysis to the one done by Hollinger on Tyson Chandler could shed some light on the matter, maybe Collins tries to go with his best offensive unit at the end of games. I would love to see the lineups for those moments but it probably wouldnt exonerate him, not that it would need to IMO, as you know its a very small portion of the game and its importance is still very much in the air.

ManRam
03-27-2012, 12:21 PM
I actually think he's having a "down year" defensively. He hasn't been quite as dominate as quite as much of a force. Seems the paint isn't as scary for opposing teams this year. He's been playing more inspired and forceful lately, and the Magic are climbing back up in the defensive rankings because of it. But the defense hasn't been nearly as good as it has been the past 3-4 years, and some of that has to do with everyone else, but I do believe some of that is him just not quite been the same force that he has been. It has, like I said, improved a lot lately. But there were a lot of games early on in the season where he wouldn't be contesting shots we've grown used to him contesting, where he wouldn't be getting across the paint as quick as he does to provide the help defense, and where he wouldn't be getting his hands up in the air on every shot attempt.

With that said, he still has a great impact on any single defense than any single player in the league IMO. I still think a good defense works inside out, and no wing defender ever will have the impact a great interior defender does...

I think Iggy has been the "best" defender.
I think LeBron has been the most versatile and depended upon defender.
I think Dwight has been the most impactful and important-to-his-team's-success defender.

If that makes sense...

And since that's the case, I wouldn't mind either winning it.

Chronz
03-27-2012, 01:11 PM
Bigs usually have a higher impact on team defense but your seriously saying Scottie Pippen couldnt compare to Dwight? I dont agree with that, its rare but wings can have a dominant defensive impact if they cover enough ground while simultaneously keeping their man in check.

Hell what about Jason Kidd? He wasnt in the paint anchoring his teams D but his active hands/feet helped him influence a ton of possessions, his offense was meh but to be able to lead a team defensively the way he has throughout, you have to have a strong defensive impact.

With regards to Iggy, his man 2 man defense may have slipped but how much of that is due to the tremendous help he applies? And I was basing my opinion of Dwight having a down year on a thread earlier in the year where people were discussing the topic. Some Magic fans opined a similar stance, that his blocks are down, that teams arent as scared of venturing the paint even if leads to outside shots.

Hes still the default selection for DPOY because hes one of a kind bigman who logs as many minutes as he can, but if there was ever a year for a swing it would be this one.

justinnum1
03-27-2012, 01:24 PM
Another thing to consider is a defneder than can take the opposing teams primary playmaker out of the game.

Dwight can anker the paint, but (and i will use the clippers as an example) if someone can take CP3 out of a game, then that has a pretty big overall impact on the game then just being able lock down the paint.

Hope that made sense.

Chronz
03-27-2012, 01:26 PM
Yea I dont think anyone denies the fact that Dwight has the luxury of rarely facing someone of his caliber but from what I remember he holds down everyone below their expected averages regardless. Its not like Noah who can impersonate Dwight in most team aspects but sucks individually against opposing bigmen. I would agree hes the favorite but this is a year in which his case is less unanimous than in the past.

Raph12
03-27-2012, 02:00 PM
The lockout would effect everyone tho, and his teammates arent elite defenders. Hes carrying the system like hes never done so before, making his teammates better, and its a result of his role change more than anything. Doug C wanted him to abandon the idea of being a #1 option and continue playing the way he has been throughout the WC, where his level of defense was raved about. He continued that mentality and Collins has utilized his defense to the fullest.

The lockout has affected everyone, scoring is down league-wide and guys like Jodie Meeks, Danny Granger, Jason Terry, Ray Allen and Joe Johnson have OPPs that would rank #1 or #2 last season... I definitely agree that he has improved his individual defense with Collins at the helm, but I don't believe he's the reason why his teammates rotate better defensively and the reason why there is a help defender on each and every play when he's beat.

Don't you find it puzzling as to why his Drtg goes from 93.7 to 107.5 in the clutch? Team defense really affects any individual player's numbers as well.


Well that doesnt surprise me, its why I said looking at those #'s is a decent start, its better than looking at stl/blks. And your opinion of my stance is irrelevant, its been proven your willing to lie to make sense of #'s and you dont strike me as someone whos looked over the #'s in depth. If Im wrong so be it but Ill take my chances.

You do what you need to do Chronz, I'm not the one voting for the awards and neither are you, so I don't really care whether or not you believe me.


LOL you havent proven anything tho and why would I expect his epic defense to exist before when Im saying defense has improved to a whole other level now that his role has changed. And help defense isnt accounted for Iggy or anyone else with the stats you referenced so its a moot point.

You can't prove something like that, help defense isn't accounted for in any of those stats and although it isn't accounted for anyone else, not everyone is playing on the best defensive team in the league... The Magic are barely a Top 10 defensive team, yet Dwight's numbers still stand out from the crowd.


Explain. I think we might be on the same page here but what correlation did you spot?
Anyways, how do you know if his Iso defense is truly mediocre? And you do realize your speaking about a single aspect of defense that accounts for a pretty small part of all defensive possessions. I like what your doing, trying to compartmentalize all aspects of defense but when you dwindle the data like that you should really look into the adjusted rates. There might be something worth noting.

Well I don't know where to find the "adjusted rates" but I don't think you can take any of these stats at face value. All of the stats have some sort of flaw that hasn't been accounted for, it makes it really hard to compare defensive numbers.


HUH? Dirk has a higher DRAPM? Is that true, I cant find the 2012 RAPM so if you have a leg up on me congrats, I may have underestimated your devotion to this subject.
If your speaking about overall RAPM then how is that a flaw? Because it doesnt agree with your opinion? So which stats are we allowed to use? Unaltered, un-reviewed stats? And I disagree about him not having a down year, it used to be thought that he could carry a defense no matter who was around him, youve echoed as much yourself and now that his team has slipped all of a sudden his teammates are poorer than poor. If true I dont think he can be absolved of the blame given his off-court distractions.

http://stats-for-the-nba.appspot.com/ranking12_no_prior

This is the site I was sent by "patSOXknicks", if that's not it, I'll take numbers from last season; Dwight had a 3.0 DRAPM and Odom had a 3.4 DRAPM... I hardly believe Odom has more impact that Dwight on the defensive end.

http://thecity2.com/2011/02/20/ezpm-compared-with-rapm-part-ii-offense-and-defense/


Yes, thats the point thats been made by every Dwight supporter for the past 4-5 years, he isnt some mystery. I still think Iggy/Deng have had comparable impact. Like I said its not based on anything substantial so Im not trashing the Dwight pick, Im only questioning your complaints against Iggy.

I can respect that


RAPM or Adj +/-? I cant find RAPM for 2012 though I think I might have but its not labeled, J.E. hasnt posted them under his official page.

If its true and up to date then Iggy has a +3.5 RAPM vs +3.4 for Dwight. Deng is at +4.1, which crushes everyone. By Advanced +/- Dwight leads the league. When it comes to +/- those are 3/4 that I favor, I think overall Dwight may have the best case but if theres ever a year for a swing to get it, its this year. Either Iggy or Deng deserve it.

I can agree with everything here.

PatsSoxKnicks
03-27-2012, 02:42 PM
RAPM or Adj +/-? I cant find RAPM for 2012 though I think I might have but its not labeled, J.E. hasnt posted them under his official page.

If its true and up to date then Iggy has a +3.5 RAPM vs +3.4 for Dwight. Deng is at +4.1, which crushes everyone. By Advanced +/- Dwight leads the league. When it comes to +/- those are 3/4 that I favor, I think overall Dwight may have the best case but if theres ever a year for a swing to get it, its this year. Either Iggy or Deng deserve it.


BTW a poster (EvanZ) from another site (I think you know which one) runs a blog that has his own +/- (ezPM) and 4-Factors that are pretty informative: thecity2.com IIRC

And in case you didnt know, J.E. has extended his +/- research to include teammate comparisons: http://stats-for-the-nba.appspot.com/ranking_rec

Its not adjusted in anyway so it wont consider the strength of the opposition. Still interesting stuff to review, some suggest it could be used for a player dependency rating, like Dirk has 10 teammates who cant lead similar lineups to his efficiency levels, which sounds obvious but you do come across results like Dwight and Ryan Anderson having completely different success rates with the same lineups and its not in the direction you would think.

Glen Davis is just horrible: http://stats-for-the-nba.appspot.com/pm/675.html

I know its unfair to compare a role player to a star but you would half expect him to outrank someone just by chance.

As for Iggy and his clutch defense, I made a thread on it but someone mentioned the lineups are completely different in the clutch. A similar analysis to the one done by Hollinger on Tyson Chandler could shed some light on the matter, maybe Collins tries to go with his best offensive unit at the end of games. I would love to see the lineups for those moments but it probably wouldnt exonerate him, not that it would need to IMO, as you know its a very small portion of the game and its importance is still very much in the air.

RAPM. I've been using the no-prior version of RAPM for 2012, which I know isn't the best model.

And I think I had been confusing this version (http://stats-for-the-nba.appspot.com/ranking_rec) with the 2012 version. I think thats why I have to keep track of the thread in the APBR forum.

And when you refer to Advanced +/-, are you referring to DSMok's version? Or another version?

And yeah, I've been aware of EvanZ's site for a little while but I need to spend more time there. Haven't gotten a chance to look at his ezPM in detail yet.

I think I'm going to have to spend some time in J.E.'s thread in the other forum. Because of the way the site is set up, I had thought that was his 12 RAPM this whole time. Probably should've noticed the url's were different.

Chronz
03-27-2012, 02:52 PM
Trying to shorten the workload since we are just going to have a difference of opinion on plenty matters, feel free to do the same....



Don't you find it puzzling as to why his Drtg goes from 93.7 to 107.5 in the clutch? Team defense really affects any individual player's numbers as well.
Firstly yes, team defense effects DRTG, thats why the formula has team component built in, its meant to do that, its also why I said you had a good start by looking at that but it shouldnt be at the forefront to any argument. Of course his DRtg shoots up, the team seems incapable of stopping anyone, (I made a thread on it not too long ago which I plan to expand). But nobody associates Drtg with anything more than a qualifier.

As for the Sixers, I actually just posted on patsoxknicks profile asking him if he was up to the task of breaking down Phillys struggles in those moments (in order to verify a few things). Its a very peculiar incident from what I know, it could be a variety of issues or a swarm of them, only thing I know is that you dont have the answer either. Iggy could be playing the same for all I know BUT then again if you are going with that argument then your facing a few dilemmas.

Your focusing on aspects of the game (clutch time) that accounts for a small % of the teams overall possessions. Your basically ignoring the majority of the game/season in favor of something of unknown importance and known limits (ie 9 minutes of "last minute, within two points", 69minutes of "clutch" time). In other words its prone to random variance none of which are as easy to explain as you seem to think it is.


You can't prove something like that, help defense isn't accounted for in any of those stats and although it isn't accounted for anyone else, not everyone is playing on the best defensive team in the league... The Magic are barely a Top 10 defensive team, yet Dwight's numbers still stand out from the crowd.

Thats my point, for someone who knows that you sure do trot out alot of raw (kind way of saying incomplete) stats to back your opinion on matters you know command more analysis. Look you and I both know Dwight should be favored so its not like I need to take a big leap of faith to buy into your argument, I can definitely see the points your trying to make.

Im just curious to the actual analysis, something this big isnt done on a whim, and maybe you have already taken the time to investigate matters in your own way, and as much as I love the improvements made in defensive stats, Im not going to take your word for them correlating to whatever opinion your giving at the time. Im just not that impressed by your findings and you dont strike me as someone who has spent alot of time reviewing the data, hell you never even knew of synergy till I mentioned it a few weeks back and now your an expert? Not buying it. I can at least admit I dont know and that we should delve into certain matters but your ready to go with the simplest of arguments because it backs common perception. Thats not being objective.




Well I don't know where to find the "adjusted rates" but I don't think you can take any of these stats at face value. All of the stats have some sort of flaw that hasn't been accounted for, it makes it really hard to compare defensive numbers.
Its true you wont ever have it completely covered, thats why you trotting incomplete #'s isnt helping your argument here. If your going to use #'s then why not account for as much as you can? And if you cant do it, then why make claims your evidence isnt backing? If your making subjective arguments, use visual evidence.



http://stats-for-the-nba.appspot.com/ranking12_no_prior

This is the site I was sent by "patSOXknicks", if that's not it, I'll take numbers from last season; Dwight had a 3.0 DRAPM and Odom had a 3.4 DRAPM... I hardly believe Odom has more impact that Dwight on the defensive end.

You can spot outliers in every one of the statistics you referenced, thats why they aid not complete the argument your trying to make, in this case Odom was actually a great defender that year, thats hardly damning evidence to a stats credibility. I mean Defensive Win Shares has Dwight ranked #1, which Im sure meets your analytical approval, yet GM's are not placing it above +/- research. So no matter what you conclude, those stats are more credible than your unsubstantiated use of stats.

Raph12
03-27-2012, 03:19 PM
Firstly yes, team defense effects DRTG, thats why the formula has team component built in, its meant to do that, its also why I said you had a good start by looking at that but it shouldnt be at the forefront to any argument. Of course his DRtg shoots up, the team seems incapable of stopping anyone, (I made a thread on it not too long ago which I plan to expand). But nobody associates Drtg with anything more than a qualifier.

Agreed, but why would his teammates like Brand, Young, Turner, Vucevic, etc all have great Drtgs, yet there isn't a single rotation player on the Magic under 102 Drtg, yet Dwight is at 93... If your team defense affects each player's Drtg, shouldn't Dwight be worse? Yet he leads the league in Drtg.


As for the Sixers, I actually just posted on patsoxknicks profile asking him if he was up to the task of breaking down Phillys struggles in those moments (in order to verify a few things). Its a very peculiar incident from what I know, it could be a variety of issues or a swarm of them, only thing I know is that you dont have the answer either. Iggy could be playing the same for all I know BUT then again if you are going with that argument then your facing a few dilemmas.

I'm not stating that he's a worse defender in the clutch, just saying that going strictly on stats is inaccurate... Just for the record, Dwight's Drtg in the clutch gets better, as do most of his teammates.

I don't think this is absolute in any way, just stating that there are way too many factors that need to be accounted for before deciding who is more deserving.


Your focusing on aspects of the game (clutch time) that accounts for a small % of the teams overall possessions. Your basically ignoring the majority of the game/season in favor of something of unknown importance and known limits (ie 9 minutes of "last minute, within two points", 10 games of being in "clutch" situations for at least 1 possession). In other words its prone to random variance none of which are as easy to explain as you seem to think it is.

Not what I'm trying to say...


Thats my point, for someone who knows that you sure do trot out alot of raw (kind way of saying incomplete) stats to back your opinion on matters you know command more analysis. Look you and I both know Dwight should be favored so its not like I need to take a big leap of faith to buy into your argument, I can definitely see the points your trying to make.

Agree on everything here.


Im just curious to the actual analysis, something this big isnt done on a whim, and maybe you have already taken the time to investigate matters in your own way, and as much as I love the improvements made in defensive stats, Im not going to take your word for them correlating to whatever opinion your giving at the time. Im just not that impressed by your findings and you dont strike me as someone who has spent alot of time reviewing the data, hell you never even knew of synergy till I mentioned it a few weeks back and now your an expert? Not buying it. I can at least admit I dont know and that we should delve into certain matters but your ready to go with the simplest of arguments because it backs common perception. Thats not being objective.

I knew of synergy, just didn't know where to find it... I have done some research on the defensive numbers, but what I've taken from it is this, you can't take any of these stats at face value.


You can spot outliers in every one of the statistics you referenced, thats why they aid not complete the argument your trying to make, in this case Odom was actually a great defender that year, thats hardly damning evidence to a stats credibility. I mean Defensive Win Shares has Dwight ranked #1, which Im sure meets your analytical approval, yet GM's are not placing it above +/- research. So no matter what you conclude, those stats are more credible than your unsubstantiated use of stats.

My mistake, those numbers (for Odom having a higher DRAPM) were for a 3-year span accounting for over 5000 possessions (not just for 2010-11). I don't think in any 3-year span, that Odom would have a larger impact on the defensive end than Dwight. If you look at the artcile, the author has created a stat called "ezPM" which takes Ortg and Drtg with RAPM and rebounding into consideration to calculate some sort of stat; OezPM and DezPM or just overall ezPM. Dwight's DezPM is significantly higher than anyone's league-wide... I agree that anyone can pick and choose which stats they like to back up their claim.

...

I think you and I are both on the same page (Dwight is the default DPOY but if they want to change things, Iggy and Deng are most deserving); we can just agree to disagree on a lot of other things.

Chronz
03-27-2012, 05:26 PM
Agreed, but why would his teammates like Brand, Young, Turner, Vucevic, etc all have great Drtgs, yet there isn't a single rotation player on the Magic under 102 Drtg, yet Dwight is at 93... If your team defense affects each player's Drtg, shouldn't Dwight be worse? Yet he leads the league in Drtg.
My guess would be it has something to do with the Sixers having the #1 ranked defense. The team component inherent in those stats helps their Def.RTG more than any other team.
The Magic being slightly ahead of the pack with Dwight racking up the most impressive amount of block/stl/rebounding stats on such a team will grant him the majority of the credit.


I'm not stating that he's a worse defender in the clutch, just saying that going strictly on stats is inaccurate... Just for the record, Dwight's Drtg in the clutch gets better, as do most of his teammates.

I don't think this is absolute in any way, just stating that there are way too many factors that need to be accounted for before deciding who is more deserving.

Agreed


I knew of synergy, just didn't know where to find it... I have done some research on the defensive numbers, but what I've taken from it is this, you can't take any of these stats at face value.
Good, just know not to spout a few of them incessantly to me, we both know where the conversation is going to end up, if your going to really take a statistical approach you can at least account for matchup variables in 1 on 1 sets. Otherwise Im not convinced by someone just looking at the #'s.

Ebbs
03-27-2012, 06:17 PM
Hakeem the dream 93-94
Jordan 87-88

Only two players to ever do this right?

Raph12
03-27-2012, 06:31 PM
My guess would be it has something to do with the Sixers having the #1 ranked defense. The team component inherent in those stats helps their Def.RTG more than any other team.
The Magic being slightly ahead of the pack with Dwight racking up the most impressive amount of block/stl/rebounding stats on such a team will grant him the majority of the credit.

Yes but even in the other last 3 seasons, where the Magic have been top 3 defensively at worst, Dwight's numbers have always stood out from the crowd. Gortat would be the closest to him at ~99/100 (now 102 Drtg on the Suns), no other rotation player had under 101. In fact, the difference in Dwight's Drtg and his teammates' has never been so significant... I'm not trying to imply anything, just curious as to why the difference would be bigger this season vs other years when they're better defensively.


Good, just know not to spout a few of them incessantly to me, we both know where the conversation is going to end up, if your going to really take a statistical approach you can at least account for matchup variables in 1 on 1 sets. Otherwise Im not convinced by someone just looking at the #'s.

I'm definitely biased towards Dwight, seeming as how I watch him more than I watch anyone else league-wide, but people saying he's "dropped off" and stuff like that because the Magic aren't top 5 this season have just irked me. If his numbers are still that good defensively and the Magic still lead the league in paint protection, why is it Dwight's fault that the defense has suffered?... If you take a look at the 4 factors for defense (eFG%, TOV%, DRB% and FTA/FGA), the Magic ranked 4th, 14th, 1st and 8th last season. This season, they rank 8th for eFG%, 28th for TOV%, 3rd for DRB% and 4th for FTA/FGA. What does this tell us? The defense has been less aggressive and less tenacious; last season they attacked the opposing team more and forced turnovers, despite fouling more and that aggressiveness in turn affected the opposing team's shooting percentages.

Dwight has played his man well, helped when necessary, lead the league in defensive rebounding and kept guys out of the paint; I don't think we can blame Dwight for his teammates not doing their jobs.

Blitzbolt
03-27-2012, 08:06 PM
The numbers lie Tony Allen is the best defender in the NBA but his lack of offense kills him with the Minutes.

Give Allen 40+minutes and he could average 5+ steals a game.Don't you guys ever wonder why the Grizzlies lead the NBA in steals and force turnover??

Sox72
03-27-2012, 08:36 PM
The numbers lie Tony Allen is the best defender in the NBA but his lack of offense kills him with the Minutes.

Give Allen 40+minutes and he could average 5+ steals a game.Don't you guys ever wonder why the Grizzlies lead the NBA in steals and force turnover??

Honestly, no.

Chronz
03-28-2012, 12:49 PM
Yes but even in the other last 3 seasons, where the Magic have been top 3 defensively at worst, Dwight's numbers have always stood out from the crowd. Gortat would be the closest to him at ~99/100 (now 102 Drtg on the Suns), no other rotation player had under 101. In fact, the difference in Dwight's Drtg and his teammates' has never been so significant... I'm not trying to imply anything, just curious as to why the difference would be bigger this season vs other years when they're better defensively.
DRTG isnt league adjusted, a DRTG of 100 can be more/less impressive based on the environment of the league, this is especially important in a lockout year so if your comparing Dwight to himself or players of the past you have to keep that in mind. Comparing Dwight to his teammates, I believe I somewhat hinted at the fact that nobody else on the Magic accrues the level of defensive boxscore stats of Dwight. Its not surprising that Gortat comes closest to matching him in DRTG considering he comes the closest to matching him in traditional boxscore stats, given that they are playing on the same team as well you wouldnt expect too much interference (or enhancement) from team efficiency.


I'm definitely biased towards Dwight, seeming as how I watch him more than I watch anyone else league-wide, but people saying he's "dropped off" and stuff like that because the Magic aren't top 5 this season have just irked me. If his numbers are still that good defensively and the Magic still lead the league in paint protection, why is it Dwight's fault that the defense has suffered?... If you take a look at the 4 factors for defense (eFG%, TOV%, DRB% and FTA/FGA), the Magic ranked 4th, 14th, 1st and 8th last season. This season, they rank 8th for eFG%, 28th for TOV%, 3rd for DRB% and 4th for FTA/FGA. What does this tell us? The defense has been less aggressive and less tenacious; last season they attacked the opposing team more and forced turnovers, despite fouling more and that aggressiveness in turn affected the opposing team's shooting percentages.

Good point, I havent checked out the 4 factors this year but it does seem petty to blame Dwight for the Magic lack of forcing turnovers. Ill take a look at the big picture stuff when Im bored beyond belief but personally, I dont think its such a disservice to blame Dwight for his teammates playing less inspired defensively, given his off-court distractions and lack of direction, I can see why players may not have given it their all. I dont think its a coincidence that they are starting to play better defensively now that they know hes staying put for another year.


Dwight has played his man well, helped when necessary, lead the league in defensive rebounding and kept guys out of the paint; I don't think we can blame Dwight for his teammates not doing their jobs.
From what I can tell theres been a dropoff, hes still Dwight but Im not as impressed subjectively and I havent delved into the stats enough to look past my own eyes, that said his teammates defensive decline would definitely impact that assessment as having better defenders around you in turn makes you a better defender so I wont blame it all on Dwight.

KingPosey
03-28-2012, 12:54 PM
LBJ's D has been really good, but I wouldnt call it DPOY good.

Raph12
03-28-2012, 03:24 PM
DRTG isnt league adjusted, a DRTG of 100 can be more/less impressive based on the environment of the league, this is especially important in a lockout year so if your comparing Dwight to himself or players of the past you have to keep that in mind. Comparing Dwight to his teammates, I believe I somewhat hinted at the fact that nobody else on the Magic accrues the level of defensive boxscore stats of Dwight. Its not surprising that Gortat comes closest to matching him in DRTG considering he comes the closest to matching him in traditional boxscore stats, given that they are playing on the same team as well you wouldnt expect too much interference (or enhancement) from team efficiency.

Makes sense...


Good point, I havent checked out the 4 factors this year but it does seem petty to blame Dwight for the Magic lack of forcing turnovers. Ill take a look at the big picture stuff when Im bored beyond belief but personally, I dont think its such a disservice to blame Dwight for his teammates playing less inspired defensively, given his off-court distractions and lack of direction, I can see why players may not have given it their all. I dont think its a coincidence that they are starting to play better defensively now that they know hes staying put for another year.

The off-court distractions are obviously a factor in effort, but the Magic haven't gotten better defensively, the other teams ahead of them have gotten worse. We had a 101-102 Drtg all year and that put us at about 11th-13th all year, the other teams dropped off and now at 102Drtg, we're top 10... We still don't force turnovers and we still double team anyone Anderson, Hedo or Redick guards in the post. We have to be more aggressive on the perimeter to force guys into tougher shots, there is no reason for letting teams shoot the ball better in a lockout season.

Dwight's individual play hasn't dropped off, if his off-court antics have distracted the team, that's different but I blame that on Magic MGMT (he asked to be traded, they said no, so they knew what they were getting into).


From what I can tell theres been a dropoff, hes still Dwight but Im not as impressed subjectively and I havent delved into the stats enough to look past my own eyes, that said his teammates defensive decline would definitely impact that assessment as having better defenders around you in turn makes you a better defender so I wont blame it all on Dwight.

He was playing lazily at the beginning of the season, he picked it up along the way and the Magic are again #1 in paint protection this season, he still guards his man very well and his help/pnr defense is still up there with the best in the league... On top of all that, he's rebounding defensively better than he ever has.

...

I think we're pretty much on the same page here.

CudiOnMyiPod
03-28-2012, 03:45 PM
Marion still gets no respect.

b@llhog24
03-28-2012, 07:28 PM
Marion still gets no respect.

Its because he doesn't really have a case.