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View Full Version : Does Anyone Think Snider and Thames Could Both Be Starters?



R. Johnson#3
03-22-2012, 12:01 PM
I'm not talking about opening day in particular but at some point during the season. If Rasmus or Lind are slumping hard and one of the two is tearing up the minors would you be opposed at giving one of the two guys a shot in either Lind or Rasmus' position?

P.S. I'm getting ready to be eaten alive for even mentioning Rasmus' name.

Converged
03-22-2012, 12:04 PM
Yes, I think they both could be starters..however, not really at the expense of our other starters right now.

JermanJaysFan
03-22-2012, 12:09 PM
It's possible for them both to start in any of the following scenarios:

- Encarnacion slump/injury (moved from full-time DH to util role, Thames gets DH job)
- Lind slump/injury (EE to first, Thames gets DH job)
- Rasmus slump/injury (Snider to CF, Thames to LF- pretty ugly defensive OF in that case)
- Lawrie slump/injury (EE to 3B :facepalm:, Thames to DH)
- Jose injury (Snider RF, Thames LF)

It's obvious which of those scenarios are more likely than others, and some of them might have better solutions. There is also the often discussed possibility that they could both be more-or-less fulltimers by working Thames into a timeshare at DH/4th OF/PH role.

JaysFan87
03-22-2012, 12:21 PM
IF they reach their ceilings then no. Thames does not project to be an everyday player.

Sanyo
03-22-2012, 12:22 PM
Tons of options to get them both in. Look at Lawrie who's already gone down. Its very unusual to not have guys getting injured and/or a slump during the season -- I think both Thames and Snider have hit the ball well enough to warrant starting jobs from the beginning, but of course, it won't happen.

Sanyo
03-22-2012, 12:24 PM
IF they reach their ceilings then no. Thames does not project to be an everyday player.

Based on? He may be a horrible fielder but he can certainly be an everyday DH guy -- Thames has been a great hitter throughout his career in college, minors and now coming into the Majors where if he can learn to adjust to off-speed pitches (hey yesterday took 2 walks, you gotta start somewhere) he can certainly be a .300 hitter with 30 hr power...which is all you can ask for from your DH...he's also averaged an .385 obp in 3 minor league seasons, so he can certainly get on base as well, even if he gets to around .360 at the mlb level, that's above average and you got him locked at a favourable contract for 5-6 years...

JMac4PM
03-22-2012, 12:34 PM
IF they reach their ceilings then no. Thames does not project to be an everyday player.

Lol, who is projecting him not to be a everyday player?

He'll be an everyday player... just not an abbove average one.

JaysFan87
03-22-2012, 12:35 PM
Based on? He may be a horrible fielder but he can certainly be an everyday DH guy -- Thames has been a great hitter throughout his career in college, minors and now coming into the Majors where if he can learn to adjust to off-speed pitches (hey yesterday took 2 walks, you gotta start somewhere) he can certainly be a .300 hitter with 30 hr power...which is all you can ask for from your DH...

I dont see Thames being a 30 HR guy and if he tries to its going to hurt other aspects of his game. Before AAA he never hit above .313 in any level which should be a huge indicator that his contact is not the greatest. Yes in AAA he hit .352 which got a huge boost if his insanely high BABIP of .406 which is incredible unsustainable. Last year when he was in the MLB he hit .262 with a BABIP of .313 which is actually still above average in the MLB. Add the fact that his SO% of 20% and it adds up to a low avg/obp with some pop and little defense. Those stats are in addition to expert analysis that pin Thames as a 4th OF at his ceiling.

McJoe
03-22-2012, 12:42 PM
I think they could both be starters but I think its unlikely that it would be in Rasmus' spot. I don't think either of Snider or Thames could handle full time center field without absolutely killing our defence and I don't think Bautista could do it either.

More likely that they would both start in taking one of Lind or Encarnacion's spot and playing DH and Lind or Encarnacion playing 1st. I actually think its LIKELY that they would both start by midseason and I don't think its out of the question for them both to start and start the season at LF and DH with Lind and Encarnacion possibly rotating at 1st.

JaysFan87
03-22-2012, 12:43 PM
Lol, who is projecting him not to be a everyday player?

He'll be an everyday player... just not an abbove average one.

Most see him as a platoon or 4th OF as his bat is not good enough to be a full time DH. I'm not going to search it out but most people who have written about him see him a 4th OF most notably Keith Law.

2009mvp
03-22-2012, 12:46 PM
Not giving Rasmus the entire year would be dumb, but if EE and/or Lind struggle there's not much reason to keep either aboard in the long-run.

Sanyo
03-22-2012, 12:55 PM
I dont see Thames being a 30 HR guy and if he tries to its going to hurt other aspects of his game. Before AAA he never hit above .313 in any level which should be a huge indicator that his contact is not the greatest. Yes in AAA he hit .352 which got a huge boost if his insanely high BABIP of .406 which is incredible unsustainable. Last year when he was in the MLB he hit .262 with a BABIP of .313 which is actually still above average in the MLB. Add the fact that his SO% of 20% and it adds up to a low avg/obp with some pop and little defense. Those stats are in addition to expert analysis that pin Thames as a 4th OF at his ceiling.

Thames' hitting numbers were actually very good in the minors (even stripping out Triple A) -- if you look at New Hampshire, which is the hardest place to hit in the Blue Jays farm system, he still had a .288/.370/.487/.874 with 27 hrs and over 100 rbis ( he was 2nd in all of the Eastern League in Home Runs and was the only guy to get 100 rbis...). Had he been a good fielder as well those numbers could have made him an easy top 25 prospect. In contrast looking at what Travis Snider did at NH in 2008 being a #11 prospect -- .262/.357/.461/.818 with 17 hrs and 67 rbis. Hell even Lawrie at Double A being a #40 prospect hit .285/.346/.451/.797 with only 8 hrs and 63 rbis. Can you say Thames is not in their league when it comes to hitting? His so/bb ratio is also comparable to these guys so its not like he strikes out a ton more than them as well...

I'm not worried about what he did his first year -- and as you said he was above average. Guys like Mike Trout and Anthony Rizzo have floundered in their 1st year, so its quite an accomplishment what Thames did (and contrary to popular belief, Thames did not get all his at-bats at the #2 spot, he did hit a large part in the 6th and 7th hole as well so he didnt always get the "protection" people claim he got throughout last year). His SO's were high but its a guy who was new and needed to adjust to the breaking balls and high fastballs...coming into the spring he has certainly been more patient at the plate and starting to lay off those pitches, especially the high fastball, which is something he was actually getting better at during the end of last year as well...

Anyways all I am saying is its hard to judge someone this early in their career -- he's 25 so he's still young and yes he has his flaws with the field and I have been advocating Thames to be at DH and Snider to get the LF job. I think Thames will be a 30 hr guy (have you seen this dude? This dude is probably one of the strongest guys in the mlb -- he can certainly rip out 30 hrs easily and in Double A he proved he can with still a decent line).

2009mvp
03-22-2012, 12:56 PM
A) New Hampshire is a pretty cushy park for LH hitters
B) Age matters. Thames was old for the level at every stop in his minor league career while Snider and Lawrie were the exact opposite. Bringing up Trout (a freakin 19 year old when he made his big league debut) is even more ridiculous, won't even touch that.

Also,

and starting to lay off those pitches, especially the high fastball, which is something he was actually getting better at during the end of last year as well...

How the hell do you know that?

Sanyo
03-22-2012, 01:11 PM
A) New Hampshire is a pretty cushy park for LH hitters
B) Age matters. Thames was old for the level at every stop in his minor league career while Snider and Lawrie were the exact opposite. Bringing up Trout (a freakin 19 year old when he made his big league debut) is even more ridiculous, won't even touch that.

Also,


How the hell do you know that?

He went to college -- sue the guy he got an education which is something none of those guys can claim if they got a career threatening injury -- maybe serving fries is fun when the money runs out?

And at 25 he is now in the same position as Travis Snider at 24 -- a year difference is no biggie for me...regardless of what he has done in the past, today is today and they are both comparable. I have nothing against Snider he is definitely a better fielder and deserves a full-time spot at LF but to write off Thames when he's probably been the best hitter along side Snider in the spring is ridiculous. He deserves a chance at full-time like anyone else -- he's got a ton of power and a pretty sweet swing.

And how do I know that? Well I listen to the radio both John Farrell and Dwayne Murphy came on and talked about how Thames is becoming more patient at the plate and working on laying off those pitches -- I am no scout and never claimed to be but I listen to the guys that matters (them).

2009mvp
03-22-2012, 01:23 PM
He went to college -- sue the guy he got an education which is something none of those guys can claim if they got a career threatening injury -- maybe serving fries is fun when the money runs out?

Relevant because...? The point was that the bar isn't the same for a 24 year old at AAA as it is for a 21 year old at the same level. I don't think any of us care which one can write the better essay.


And at 25 he is now in the same position as Travis Snider at 24 -- a year difference is no biggie for me...regardless of what he has done in the past, today is today and they are both comparable. I have nothing against Snider he is definitely a better fielder and deserves a full-time spot at LF but to write off Thames when he's probably been the best hitter along side Snider in the spring is ridiculous. He deserves a chance at full-time like anyone else -- he's got a ton of power and a pretty sweet swing.

Who's arguing any of that?


And how do I know that? Well I listen to the radio both John Farrell and Dwayne Murphy came on and talked about how Thames is becoming more patient at the plate and working on laying off those pitches -- I am no scout and never claimed to be but I listen to the guys that matters (them).

Get the hell out, Farrell and Murphy have good things to say about their players?!? Well I'll be damned! Cause y'know, we're all intelligent enough to discern the difference between typical spring training drivel and actual analysis, right?

Sanyo
03-22-2012, 01:35 PM
Relevant because...? The point was that the bar isn't the same for a 24 year old at AAA as it is for a 21 year old at the same level. I don't think any of us care which one can write the better essay.



Who's arguing any of that?



Get the hell out, Farrell and Murphy have good things to say about their players?!? Well I'll be damned! Cause y'know, we're all intelligent enough to discern the difference between typical spring training drivel and actual analysis, right?

Love how you try being an a-hole in a sarcastic way -- anyways if Farrell and Muprhy didnt have good things to say, I dont think they shy away from that -- Farrell did mention he's got work to do in the field -- yeah yeah he's improving but he's still needing work on the best route to take when he's chasing the ball, blah blah blah, your an expert man you know best obviously so I won't get deep into it...

But he did mention with the hitting there is a definite improvement with his pitch selection, he's not chasing pitches like last year and he's working to work the count -- again blah blah blah you know best, your an expert...anyways well i guess we should all be quiet guys we dont know what we're talking about this dude knows all -- i wont post on this matter anymore, i'll let the expert take it from here...

JaysFan87
03-22-2012, 01:39 PM
Thames' hitting numbers were actually very good in the minors (even stripping out Triple A) -- if you look at New Hampshire, which is the hardest place to hit in the Blue Jays farm system, he still had a .288/.370/.487/.874 with 27 hrs and over 100 rbis ( he was 2nd in all of the Eastern League in Home Runs and was the only guy to get 100 rbis...). Had he been a good fielder as well those numbers could have made him an easy top 25 prospect. In contrast looking at what Travis Snider did at NH in 2008 being a #11 prospect -- .262/.357/.461/.818 with 17 hrs and 67 rbis. Hell even Lawrie at Double A being a #40 prospect hit .285/.346/.451/.797 with only 8 hrs and 63 rbis. Can you say Thames is not in their league when it comes to hitting? His so/bb ratio is also comparable to these guys so its not like he strikes out a ton more than them as well...

He was also a 23 year old playing which is old for his league. Yes he had a good year but the indicator to me is that in the minors where infield defense is bad and the infield surface is worse he could only muster a .288 AVG? Adam ****in Dunn had a better average than Thames in the minors. And while he OBP was good but his walk rate has been in decline since his rookie year and his SO5 has been around 20% his whole career.


I'm not worried about what he did his first year -- and as you said he was above average. Guys like Mike Trout and Anthony Rizzo have floundered in their 1st year, so its quite an accomplishment what Thames did (and contrary to popular belief, Thames did not get all his at-bats at the #2 spot, he did hit a large part in the 6th and 7th hole as well so he didnt always get the "protection" people claim he got throughout last year). His SO's were high but its a guy who was new and needed to adjust to the breaking balls and high fastballs...coming into the spring he has certainly been more patient at the plate and starting to lay off those pitches, especially the high fastball, which is something he was actually getting better at during the end of last year as well...


Trout is going to be one of the best players in the league and Rizzo and Trout were 21 and 19 when they made their debut in the league excuse me if they were not world beaters at that age. And i never said that Thames was above average, i said his BABIP was still above average last year and he still only mustered a .262 AVG which is not a good thing. In the minors he accumulated a .308 AVG with a very high BABIP that is not sustainable. Once his BABIP came back to normal levels in the MLB his BA drop as it was supposed to. And yes Thames did get the majority of his AB in the 2 hole, in fact he got 288 of his 362 AB there. His SO were always high throughout his minor league career which would be fine if he did not also have a declining BB rate as well.


Anyways all I am saying is its hard to judge someone this early in their career -- he's 25 so he's still young and yes he has his flaws with the field and I have been advocating Thames to be at DH and Snider to get the LF job. I think Thames will be a 30 hr guy (have you seen this dude? This dude is probably one of the strongest guys in the mlb -- he can certainly rip out 30 hrs easily and in Double A he proved he can with still a decent line)

AA is not MLB and of course I can judge him right now. I see a guy with little plate discipline and above average pop with little defense. He needs to make more contact if he wants to hit for average and needs to have a better eye at the plate if he wants to get onbase.

2009mvp
03-22-2012, 01:57 PM
Love how you try being an a-hole in a sarcastic way -- anyways if Farrell and Muprhy didnt have good things to say, I dont think they shy away from that -- Farrell did mention he's got work to do in the field -- yeah yeah he's improving but he's still needing work on the best route to take when he's chasing the ball, blah blah blah, your an expert man you know best obviously so I won't get deep into it...

But he did mention with the hitting there is a definite improvement with his pitch selection, he's not chasing pitches like last year and he's working to work the count -- again blah blah blah you know best, your an expert...anyways well i guess we should all be quiet guys we dont know what we're talking about this dude knows all -- i wont post on this matter anymore, i'll let the expert take it from here...

Cool, way to address the original point disputing the claim that Thames' minor league career was in some way similar to Lawrie/Snider. Good job dodging that one. I only brought up the last part just to point out how ridiculous it is for someone to think they have a handle on how a guy is doing based on the freakin radio broadcast.


He was also a 23 year old playing which is old for his league. Yes he had a good year but the indicator to me is that in the minors where infield defense is bad and the infield surface is worse he could only muster a .288 AVG? Adam ****in Dunn had a better average than Thames in the minors. And while he OBP was good but his walk rate has been in decline since his rookie year and his SO5 has been around 20% his whole career.



Trout is going to be one of the best players in the league and Rizzo and Trout were 21 and 19 when they made their debut in the league excuse me if they were not world beaters at that age. And i never said that Thames was above average, i said his BABIP was still above average last year and he still only mustered a .262 AVG which is not a good thing. In the minors he accumulated a .308 AVG with a very high BABIP that is not sustainable. Once his BABIP came back to normal levels in the MLB his BA drop as it was supposed to. And yes Thames did get the majority of his AB in the 2 hole, in fact he got 288 of his 362 AB there. His SO were always high throughout his minor league career which would be fine if he did not also have a declining BB rate as well.



AA is not MLB and of course I can judge him right now. I see a guy with little plate discipline and above average pop with little defense. He needs to make more contact if he wants to hit for average and needs to have a better eye at the plate if he wants to get onbase.

Whoa, now we're picking apart minor league BABIP's and batting averages? Yikes. Dude's a decent hitter with solid pop and more patience than he's shown at the big league level so far. I mean, I agree that ultimately he isn't likely to be much more than a 4th OF, but let's not act like he's fluked his way through the minors or something. He's still a damn good hitter.

Ace Drivers
03-22-2012, 03:20 PM
I say we ditch EE and platoon em until one shines more than the other...I'm still scratching my head about bringing him back...

Say what you want about any other player on our team, he's the worst!

Or I would get rid of Francisco...another head scratcher

Bench should be:
Omar
Davis
McCoy
some other plug who can pinch hit

wagnall
03-22-2012, 03:55 PM
I say we ditch EE and platoon em until one shines more than the other...I'm still scratching my head about bringing him back...

Say what you want about any other player on our team, he's the worst!

Or I would get rid of Francisco...another head scratcher

Bench should be:
Omar
Davis
McCoy
some other plug who can pinch hit

ahhh, that would be Mathis. He has to be there! :)

Gibby
03-22-2012, 04:01 PM
I can see them starting in left field and DH, when Edwin starts slumping.

wagnall
03-22-2012, 04:39 PM
Reading yesterdays Sun on Drabek and Snider probably destined for AAA, not agreeing that Snider should be sent down, but impressed with Sniders maturity about the situation and he seems like he's putting on a brave face, but I think he's just saying the right things even though inside he's probably thinking, "I've done what was asked of me so far, I deserve to stay.And how can the decision already have been made".

I'm hoping AA at least gives him a shot if he earns it. But the way it looks is that he would have had to put Lawrie numbers up there to get in over Thames!

JaysFan87
03-22-2012, 06:19 PM
Cool, way to address the original point disputing the claim that Thames' minor league career was in some way similar to Lawrie/Snider. Good job dodging that one. I only brought up the last part just to point out how ridiculous it is for someone to think they have a handle on how a guy is doing based on the freakin radio broadcast.



Whoa, now we're picking apart minor league BABIP's and batting averages? Yikes. Dude's a decent hitter with solid pop and more patience than he's shown at the big league level so far. I mean, I agree that ultimately he isn't likely to be much more than a 4th OF, but let's not act like he's fluked his way through the minors or something. He's still a damn good hitter.

Decent hitter yes, but you'd hope that with poor field conditions and defense and with a high BABIP you'd average better than a .308 career BA in the minors. And if you are nto then you better be good at either getting onbase or slg....see adam dunn. Thames does nothing very well in fact does ore things below average (defense, contact, plate discipline) than above average (pop). And the pop is not even incredible, its a plus tool but not a plus plus tool. Im sorry but for the same logic that Lind can not be an everyday player if he puts up the same type of season he has the last 2 applies to Thames. Plus pop with below average contact, plate discipline, defense = 4th OF/platoon player/bench player.

darius
03-23-2012, 08:33 PM
IF they reach their ceilings then no. Thames does not project to be an everyday player.

Where does he not "project" to be an everyday player?

I think he is generally projected to be a better than average player, especially offensively.

StealingSigns
03-23-2012, 09:03 PM
Where does he not "project" to be an everyday player?

I think he is generally projected to be a better than average player, especially offensively.

If all the players in the equation (Snider, Thames, Rasmus) reach their ceilings, Thames is a bench player for the Blue Jays. That's not to say Thames is not a starter on another team...

nithanyo
03-24-2012, 12:57 AM
Where do people pull this "thames is a 4th outfielder" BS???

They both were given fair oppertunities. snider got 794 major league at bats. Thames got 364 ML at bats.

Thames' 2011 was not great by any means. But it was satisfactory and better than the numbers put out by Snider. The reason Thames is probably going to get the job come April is because Thames 2011 was better than Sniders 2011. Spring training numbers dont mean much so giving Snider the job because he hit well in March is not much to account for. Rajai Davis hit .333 with 4 Hr's last spring. better numbers than sniders lol.

Thames is only 14 months older than Snider so its not like youre giving at-bats to a rusty old veteran. AND thames was supposed to be a top 50 pick in his draft class. But an injury sent him to the 7th round to the jays. He missed an entire year of baseball and its understandable if he is a late bloomer. But to say Thames is a 4th outfielder is ridiculous if you ask me.

JaysFan87
03-24-2012, 02:20 AM
^^ the fact their career numbers are similar with snider being in the majors since he was 20 tells you why that thinking is wrong. You say Snider was given his chance? Going into last year he put up the same type of numbers Thames did last year yet people were quick to crap all over him because of a bad April (as a 23 year old for ****sakes). Yet here we are going into this season and some people think that Snider is a bust and Thames is now a regular becasue he put average numbers last year as a 24 year old but snider putting up the same average numbers as a 21-23 year old is a bust. Laughable.

Also not to mention defense has to play in the decision.

ghost dog
03-24-2012, 04:49 AM
Yes but not in T.O., Only if they were both traded for the Jays LF

wamco
03-24-2012, 06:33 AM
Where does he not "project" to be an everyday player?

I think he is generally projected to be a better than average player, especially offensively.

As 87 said, Keith Law said the exact opposite

ah nuts
03-24-2012, 09:02 PM
as far a ceilings go, IMO,

Thames:

could surprise with average and top out at around 30hrs ( sure he is full of muscles put it doesn't help his throwing arm... sort of the same for hrs). He will reach for average "D" and will be a slight below base runner.

Snider:
capable of high average, high hr, above average "D" and slight above base runner skills.

wagnall
03-24-2012, 10:21 PM
Nice problem to have!