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Converged
03-21-2012, 03:04 PM
DJF just posted an alarming article about how ****** Adam Lind is. Definitely worth the read:


Jays fans all know the story with Adam Lind: a great 2009 followed by an awful 2010, followed by a 2011 that looked promising at times, but was allegedly derailed by some manner of ********– injury or poor conditioning or… whatever– and wound up with stats looking just as bad as his fugly 2010. (Parkes rather awesomely ruminated on this last September at Getting Blanked).
Believing their own propaganda, and undoubtedly looking at the potential that still lies in what would be a very team-friendly contract if Lind ever returned to anything close to his 2009 levels of production, the Jays stayed the course over the winter, intent on entering 2012 with Lind still entrenched at the position. It is what it is.
Most of us, I think, would rather try and be hopeful that the Jays excuses aren’t as completely full of **** as they seem, and don’t need to be reminded about just how ****ing ridiculously terrible the last two seasons have been.

http://blogs.thescore.com/djf/2012/03/21/the-mind-blowing-awfulness-of-adam-lind/?utm_source=feedburner&utm_medium=twitter&utm_campaign=Feed%3A+DrunkJaysFans+%28DrunkJaysFan s%29

DVS
03-21-2012, 03:49 PM
Aaron Hill v2.0

I'm sure if AA could move him, he would. That's a prayer and a half though.

Toxeryll
03-21-2012, 03:50 PM
how about snider in LF, thames at DH and EE at 1B??

BluejaysFan08
03-21-2012, 03:53 PM
I said we should have moved him awhile ago, I had no idea he was already up there in age. Not old but far from a prospect age.

BlueJayFanDan
03-21-2012, 04:57 PM
Even if no one else likes him, he is still my favorite player. I love you Lind. Here comes a good season. Let's do this!

JMac4PM
03-21-2012, 05:36 PM
I'm a Lind fan but I'd say he is far from "Entrenched" at 1B. Lets be honest here, with EE, Snider, and Thames raking if Lind falters after 1-2 months then it could easily be switched to EE 1st, Snider LF and Thames DH.

albertajaysfan
03-21-2012, 05:40 PM
I'm a Lind fan but I'd say he is far from "Entrenched" at 1B. Lets be honest here, with EE, Snider, and Thames raking if Lind falters after 1-2 months then it could easily be switched to EE 1st, Snider LF and Thames DH.

Agreed.

Lind faltering is actually the best shot I think Snider has of getting into the lineup consistently.

bomber0104
03-21-2012, 05:50 PM
As terrible as Lind has been the last 2 years, it wouldn't surprise me one bit if he has a big year

town123
03-21-2012, 06:07 PM
Cooper should be the first option WHEN Lind is booted out. We keep crying for high ave, high opb players to maximize Jose, well then, just plug the kid into the #2 slot and let him do his thing.

JermanJaysFan
03-21-2012, 06:20 PM
I didn't know that this was news to anyone. He's been trash for two years now, with a couple bright streaks. Hopefully he can parlay those into a solid season again, but ssems doubtful.

Farsight
03-21-2012, 06:24 PM
Cooper should be the first option WHEN Lind is booted out. We keep crying for high ave, high opb players to maximize Jose, well then, just plug the kid into the #2 slot and let him do his thing.The issue with Cooper is his lack of power (which is a big requirement at 1b). If he could produce that type of offense at most other positions, he would be a valuable asset, but right now he projects more like a Lyle Overbay type or at best he posts a season like Kotchman had last year with Tampa bay, which is just above replacement

Farsight
03-21-2012, 06:27 PM
Im actually surprised that the Jays dont make a push for Morales, he would actually be a 1b men that im interested in. Especially with the acquisition of Alberta Puljos by the Angels. However, im sure that he will be there DH after he comes back from his injury. If his injury is not that serious, you wonder how much it would cost to acquire him

JermanJaysFan
03-21-2012, 06:41 PM
The issue with Cooper is his lack of power (which is a big requirement at 1b). If he could produce that type of offense at most other positions, he would be a valuable asset, but right now he projects more like a Lyle Overbay type or at best he posts a season like Kotchman had last year with Tampa bay, which is just above replacement
Kotchman was like a 3 WAR player last year. Not that exciting, but solidly above replacement.

Im actually surprised that the Jays dont make a push for Morales, he would actually be a 1b men that im interested in. Especially with the acquisition of Alberta Puljos by the Angels. However, im sure that he will be there DH after he comes back from his injury. If his injury is not that serious, you wonder how much it would cost to acquire him
Not a bad idea. When he comes back from injury, their DH slot is quite congested.

- Pujols is entrenched at first.
- They have Wells, Hunter, Abreu, Bourjos, and Trout in terms of outfielders. At least at some point this season, you gotta figure that outfield will be Trout-Bourjos-Hunter, with Wells and Abreu (and their paycheques) clamoring for ABs at DH.
- They have Trumbo who was at 1st last year, and is being tried out at 3rd this year. If that experiment fails, he becomes a guy trying to get ABs at DH too.

Morales could maybe be had, but I wouldn't want to pay a premium for unknown/damaged goods.

town123
03-21-2012, 07:40 PM
The issue with Cooper is his lack of power (which is a big requirement at 1b). If he could produce that type of offense at most other positions, he would be a valuable asset, but right now he projects more like a Lyle Overbay type or at best he posts a season like Kotchman had last year with Tampa bay, which is just above replacement

Overbay had a high opb?

Typically for a 1B I would agree with the power requirement, however, considering we are getting tons of power from our catcher, maybe power isn't all that.

He outclassed his competition in AAA and deserves to be smacking doubles and taking walks up here.

Halladay
03-21-2012, 08:02 PM
Pretty much anything at this point is an upgrade over Lind. The sad part is it's such an any position to fill.

GNick
03-21-2012, 08:04 PM
DJF just posted an alarming article about how ****** Adam Lind is. Definitely worth the read:



http://blogs.thescore.com/djf/2012/03/21/the-mind-blowing-awfulness-of-adam-lind/?utm_source=feedburner&utm_medium=twitter&utm_campaign=Feed%3A+DrunkJaysFans+%28DrunkJaysFan s%29

We'll see....Jays was able to squeeze a good year out of Wells to trade him. Decent year out of Buck to get a draft pick. Maybe a decent year out of Lind to get a good trade return?

Sanyo
03-21-2012, 08:52 PM
If Lawrie blossoms, I could see him pushed into even the 5th spot, giving Lind protection. Or move Lind to 3rd, Jose to 4th and keep Lawrie at 5th. But I have a feeling there are going to try the righty-lefty-righty thing throughout the lineup (Yunel, Thames/Snider, Bautista, Lind, Edwin, Rasmus, Lawrie, Johnson, Arencibia). Lind is a good hitter, he needs good protection behind him -- ain't nothing wrong with that, lots of guys are better at 2nd or 3rd or 5th then they are hitting cleanup. Lind is not a cleanup guy, it would be good for him to get out of there.

Farsight
03-21-2012, 09:02 PM
Overbay had a high opb?

Typically for a 1B I would agree with the power requirement, however, considering we are getting tons of power from our catcher, maybe power isn't all that.

He outclassed his competition in AAA and deserves to be smacking doubles and taking walks up here. Look at Overbays career before 2009, he actually had a pretty good OBP. Moreover, if i can remember, his minor league numbers were even better than Cooper, and he hit for more power.

craigerlee
03-21-2012, 09:09 PM
Overbay had a high opb?

Typically for a 1B I would agree with the power requirement, however, considering we are getting tons of power from our catcher, maybe power isn't all that.

He outclassed his competition in AAA and deserves to be smacking doubles and taking walks up here.

Problem is the pitching in the PCL is absolutely atrocious, front offices don't send good pitchers there. The fact that he draws walks there does not guarantee he draws walks in the majors and good pitchers will pound the strike zone forcing him to put the ball in play. Also high OBP's in the majors are usually highly correlated with power and sometimes speed, neither of those skills Cooper is very accomplished at. I think your best case scenario for Cooper is a bad defensive version of James Loney, nothing I would get excited about or would want to appoint my next 1B in the AL East.

scaramantula
03-21-2012, 10:05 PM
everyone seems to ignore the circumstances lind was in last year, he moved from dh to first, and wasnt used to the added toll it took on his body, he still deserves one more shot in my opinion, toronto fans are always to quick to turn on a player

craigerlee
03-21-2012, 10:57 PM
everyone seems to ignore the circumstances lind was in last year, he moved from dh to first, and wasnt used to the added toll it took on his body, he still deserves one more shot in my opinion, toronto fans are always to quick to turn on a player

If Miguel Cabrera and Prince Fielder can play 150+ games at 1B and not have any health problems, then Adam Lind sure as hell can. The guy played LF for years without getting injured, 1B is much less physically tolling on the body than LF. This is just another excuse, the excuse in 2010 was that playing DH was the problem, now playing 1B is the problem?

2009mvp
03-21-2012, 11:53 PM
Pretty much anything at this point is an upgrade over Lind. The sad part is it's such an any position to fill.

I'm not so sure about that anymore. I mean, outside of Hosmer who's the last real impressive 1B prospect to come up? Where are Smoak, Wallace, LaPorta, Gamel, Lars Anderson and their ilk now (where's Wallace, huh String?!?)? You've gotta be a hell of a hitter to be in that Hosmer category. Hell even developing a guy like Freeman who's not much more than an average bat is tough to do. Then you look at the big league level and unless you're spending the 9 figures to get one of the elites you're looking at expensive mediocrity in the form of guys like Carlos Lee, Adam LaRoche, Carlos Pena et al. Not that those guys aren't better than Lind, just that long-term giving Lind just one more year really does make the most sense for the franchise. Now next year when they should be ready to compete then you can grab one of those stopgaps if need be, but in 2012 the marginal upgrade just isn't worth it, especially considering it could potentially block Snider (assuming that if/when Lind sucks EE takes that role and Snider/Thames split LF/DH duties).

JermanJaysFan
03-22-2012, 12:04 AM
I'm not so sure about that anymore. I mean, outside of Hosmer who's the last real impressive 1B prospect to come up? Where are Smoak, Wallace, LaPorta, Gamel, Lars Anderson and their ilk now (where's Wallace, huh String?!?)? You've gotta be a hell of a hitter to be in that Hosmer category. Hell even developing a guy like Freeman who's not much more than an average bat is tough to do. Then you look at the big league level and unless you're spending the 9 figures to get one of the elites you're looking at expensive mediocrity in the form of guys like Carlos Lee, Adam LaRoche, Carlos Pena et al. Not that those guys aren't better than Lind, just that long-term giving Lind just one more year really does make the most sense for the franchise. Now next year when they should be ready to compete then you can grab one of those stopgaps if need be, but in 2012 the marginal upgrade just isn't worth it, especially considering it could potentially block Snider (assuming that if/when Lind sucks EE takes that role and Snider/Thames split LF/DH duties).
Wow, I hadn't thought about it but you have a point. There hasn't been an influx of high-level 1B talent in a while. Hmm. Interesting...

mtf
03-22-2012, 03:15 AM
Typically for a 1B I would agree with the power requirement, however, considering we are getting tons of power from our catcher, maybe power isn't all that.

This sort of rationalization of keeping average or below average players on the team is one of the things that really confuses me about Toronto sports fans. If "player x" is really good and just covering for "player y" who is below average, aren't you simply wasting the good player?

This sort of thing would never stand in any market where true fans cared. True fans should put pressure on the organization to be better. Can you imagine fans in New York settling for Adam Lind?

Valleyfella
03-22-2012, 08:00 AM
I didn't know that this was news to anyone. He's been trash for two years now, with a couple bright streaks. Hopefully he can parlay those into a solid season again, but ssems doubtful.

Actually, he was raking the ball for most of the first half last year. He wasn't the same when he came back from injury and there have been suggestions that his back was bothering him in the second half of the season. It's fashionable to sneer at all things Lind among many Blue Jay fans, but unlike, say, Snider, who many insist should be trotted out to play regularly despite failing when given numerous opportunities to succeed, Lind has had entire seasons and chunks of seasons where he has been very productive.

Twitchy
03-22-2012, 08:09 AM
Actually, he was raking the ball for most of the first half last year. He wasn't the same when he came back from injury and there have been suggestions that his back was bothering him in the second half of the season. It's fashionable to sneer at all things Lind among many Blue Jay fans, but unlike, say, Snider, who many insist should be trotted out to play regularly despite failing when given numerous opportunities to succeed, Lind has had entire seasons and chunks of seasons where he has been very productive.

He had a fantastic 2009, yes. But he wasn't great in the first half of 2011, and it's kind of deceiving to say that. He had a terrible April, and he had a weeks worth of good games in May. Despite what you said, it's not true that he wasn't the same when he came back from the injury, because his return in June was his best month.

It was in July/August/September that he was at his worst. When he should have been recovered from said injury. I don't know if I can really accept that he was playing hurt here, as the month he returned from his injury was his best of the season.

JermanJaysFan
03-22-2012, 09:15 AM
Actually, he was raking the ball for most of the first half last year. He wasn't the same when he came back from injury and there have been suggestions that his back was bothering him in the second half of the season. It's fashionable to sneer at all things Lind among many Blue Jay fans, but unlike, say, Snider, who many insist should be trotted out to play regularly despite failing when given numerous opportunities to succeed, Lind has had entire seasons and chunks of seasons where he has been very productive.
Twitchy said what I was going to say, but I wanted to point out that I always try to be as objective as possible and don't try to **** on any Jays players without due cause. I always look at the numbers before I do any commenting, and that drives my opinion on a player.

EDIT- Here's the numbers if you want them (http://www.baseball-reference.com/players/gl.cgi?id=lindad01&t=b&year=2011). You can highlight a range of games to get the summary stats for that range. If you click around a bit, you'll see he was raking in May until he went down May 7. He came back on June 4, when he promptly continued raking until about the 18th, when it started going downhill.From June 4-17 he OPSed 1.460. From June 18-30 he OPSed .575.

Valleyfella
03-22-2012, 09:32 AM
He had a fantastic 2009, yes. But he wasn't great in the first half of 2011, and it's kind of deceiving to say that. He had a terrible April, and he had a weeks worth of good games in May. Despite what you said, it's not true that he wasn't the same when he came back from the injury, because his return in June was his best month.

It was in July/August/September that he was at his worst. When he should have been recovered from said injury. I don't know if I can really accept that he was playing hurt here, as the month he returned from his injury was his best of the season.
Your points are well taken. The fact remains, though, that by roughly mid season Lind was heading toward a BA of over .300, 30+ HR's and around the league leaders in RBI's. His collapse in the second half was drastic, making the rumors that he was playing injured more plausible. I'm no Lind apologist - I find he's always tended to be feast or famine at the plate with the famine often being for extended periods of time - but if the rumors of his playing injured are true and not just an excuse, then there are some reall reasons for optimism going forward.

KaiserSose
03-22-2012, 09:56 AM
If Lawrie blossoms, I could see him pushed into even the 5th spot, giving Lind protection. Or move Lind to 3rd, Jose to 4th and keep Lawrie at 5th. But I have a feeling there are going to try the righty-lefty-righty thing throughout the lineup (Yunel, Thames/Snider, Bautista, Lind, Edwin, Rasmus, Lawrie, Johnson, Arencibia). Lind is a good hitter, he needs good protection behind him -- ain't nothing wrong with that, lots of guys are better at 2nd or 3rd or 5th then they are hitting cleanup. Lind is not a cleanup guy, it would be good for him to get out of there.

Not this protection stuff again. It is a myth. He wont get more fastballs or less breaking balls. Lind is not a clean-up guy is an understatement. He's not a good baseball player at all.

http://www.baseballprospectus.com/unfiltered/?p=1042


Your points are well taken. The fact remains, though, that by roughly mid season Lind was heading toward a BA of over .300, 30+ HR's and around the league leaders in RBI's. His collapse in the second half was drastic, making the rumors that he was playing injured more plausible. I'm no Lind apologist - I find he's always tended to be feast or famine at the plate with the famine often being for extended periods of time - but if the rumors of his playing injured are true and not just an excuse, then there are some reall reasons for optimism going forward.

If you aren't a Lind apologist why are you apologizing for hie awfulness? Rumors of him playing injured are just that. Rumors. If he was too hurt to play then he wouldn't have played. He is just terrible. Stop apologizing for him!

Valleyfella
03-22-2012, 10:10 AM
Not this protection stuff again. It is a myth. He wont get more fastballs or less breaking balls. Lind is not a clean-up guy is an understatement. He's not a good baseball player at all.

http://www.baseballprospectus.com/unfiltered/?p=1042



If you aren't a Lind apologist why are you apologizing for hie awfulness? Rumors of him playing injured are just that. Rumors. If he was too hurt to play then he wouldn't have played. He is just terrible. Stop apologizing for him!

Uhm, maybe because I don't think he's awful or because there are shades of grey between "he sucks" and "he's great"?

wamco
03-22-2012, 10:29 AM
His good stretch last year was longer than Rasmus poor stretch in toronto, yet expectations are for rasmus to revert back to his 2nd year premium numbers and for Lind to suck.

JermanJaysFan
03-22-2012, 10:47 AM
His good stretch last year was longer than Rasmus poor stretch in toronto, yet expectations are for rasmus to revert back to his 2nd year premium numbers and for Lind to suck.
This isn't really true. I wouldn't call his .740 OPS in April a "good stretch", and aside from that, he only really hit good for 6 games in May and half of June...~20 games tops. Rasmus had 35 ****** games in Toronto last year. But regardless, this is kind of comparing apples and oranges- Lind is 2 years removed from an excellent season, Rasmus is 1 year removed. Lind is 28, Rasmus is 25.

Farsight
03-22-2012, 11:33 AM
This isn't really true. I wouldn't call his .740 OPS in April a "good stretch", and aside from that, he only really hit good for 6 games in May and half of June...~20 games tops. Rasmus had 35 ****** games in Toronto last year. But regardless, this is kind of comparing apples and oranges- Lind is 2 years removed from an excellent season, Rasmus is 1 year removed. Lind is 28, Rasmus is 25. Also the fact that Rasmus plays a more premium position. An OPS of 800 for a CF is really good, while an OPS of 800 for a 1b is average. We have to remember that the offensive production for CF is more valuable, were you expect a good first basemen to provide you with an OPS of close to 900. If Lind can go back to his 2009 form when he post a OPS of 900+, than im fine with him at first

bartron_44
03-22-2012, 01:43 PM
Also the fact that Rasmus plays a more premium position. An OPS of 800 for a CF is really good, while an OPS of 800 for a 1b is average. We have to remember that the offensive production for CF is more valuable, were you expect a good first basemen to provide you with an OPS of close to 900. If Lind can go back to his 2009 form when he post a OPS of 900+, than im fine with him at first


I think .850 would suffice..Only the best first basemen in baseball have an OPS around .900 (or better)...and I think that is too high of a bar for Lind. There were only 7 qualifiers (at 1B) last year that had an OPS over .850 in all of MLB, and in 2010 there were only 10.

Lind will never live up to expectations if we think he is going to hit like a top 5 first basemen. He obviously isn't as good as Pujols, Fielder, Gonzalez, Votto and Cabrera (who I know plays 3B again this year)....and I don't think he is as good as Howard, Texeira, Berkman or Konerko either.

All we can really hope for is Lind to be an average first basemen...and if he can post an OPS of .850, he will have accomplished that.The problem I have is that AA has said that we need elite talent all over the diamond to try and win a world series. Why he can't accept the fact that Lind will never be an elite first basemen, and go get us one is quite puzzling/frustrating...

All I can think of is that he either has really high hopes for Mike McDade, or he is really setting his sights on Joey Votto next year and just praying he hits the open market...the team isn't being assembled for the 2012 season though, so its not like we needed to pay Fielder or Pujols 300M to try and get them to come here.


Obviously I would rather my first basemen be able to have a SLG% around .500 to go with his high OBP, but its not like we have a shortage of power up and down our lineup. We have 7 guys that could hit 20+ HR's without our first basemen. Once we get a solid hitting first basemen to solidify the clean up spot in our order...we are going to score a lot more runs.

Ace Drivers
03-22-2012, 02:46 PM
Lind is on the team not because of the "new age" stats but because of HR's and RBI's...for all you haters out there, he has one problem to fix...and one alone.

He doesn't walk enough. You add 40 walks to his stat line, giving him 72 walks (still pretty low compared to some of the top guys) and then all of a sudden you are looking a guy with an .OPS of .810...still not a level most of you would like, but i doubt we would be grumbling if that were the case...

and undoubtedly his other stats would improve if could learn to walk as he would see more strikes, hence get more hits, more HR's, more 2B's...all of which would improve his slugging % etc.

All he needs to do is WALK...stop swinging at pitches out of the strike zone fer crying out loud! Make pitchers get you out rather than getting yourself out...its that simple, forgot about WAR and this stat and that stat...just walk a little more.

I also think with the addition of Lawrie for a full season (I see him batting in the 5 spot real soon) batting behind him pitchers will be less likely to pitch around him.

Given the money being thrown at 1b's this year I say we give him one more year and spend our limited funds (sorry guys that's the reality, regardless of what Beeston and AA said in the past) on legitimate number 2 starter who has proven he can handle our division...

FYI: I think Huroda, and Pineda are going to get lit up and the Yanks will fall to fourth. The only pitcher that scares me over there is the Big S...who looks fatter than ever btw!

Go Jays Go!

Ace Drivers
03-22-2012, 03:06 PM
Anyone paying attention to todays game against philly? If so did you notice the line-up?
1) Looks pretty close to a potential opening day roster minus Lawrie

2) Johnson was lead-off, Escobar second...hmmm I wonder if somethings up?

mtf
03-22-2012, 03:11 PM
Lind is on the team not because of the "new age" stats but because of HR's and RBI's...for all you haters out there, he has one problem to fix...and one alone.

He doesn't walk enough. You add 40 walks to his stat line, giving him 72 walks (still pretty low compared to some of the top guys) and then all of a sudden you are looking a guy with an .OPS of .810...still not a level most of you would like, but i doubt we would be grumbling if that were the case...

and undoubtedly his other stats would improve if could learn to walk as he would see more strikes, hence get more hits, more HR's, more 2B's...all of which would improve his slugging % etc.

All he needs to do is WALK...stop swinging at pitches out of the strike zone fer crying out loud! Make pitchers get you out rather than getting yourself out...its that simple, forgot about WAR and this stat and that stat...just walk a little more.

I also think with the addition of Lawrie for a full season (I see him batting in the 5 spot real soon) batting behind him pitchers will be less likely to pitch around him.

So, you're saying Lind needs to walk more and that pitchers pitch around him? lol.

Ace Drivers
03-22-2012, 03:31 PM
So, you're saying Lind needs to walk more and that pitchers pitch around him? lol.

Well if you could read, rather than looking for semantics that you try rip, making yourself feel smarter...you would understand that what I was saying is that he swings at too many bad pitches and therefore pitchers throw him crap cuz they know he will swing at it...if he learns to lay off the crap and walk more, he will see more strikes...

It really is a simple point...

Ace Drivers
03-22-2012, 03:36 PM
And let me just say mtf...I participate in this forum because for the most part because people are passionate, yet demonstrate some sort of class and intelligence in their posts...rather than being a jack ***...

Farsight
03-22-2012, 03:36 PM
I think .850 would suffice..Only the best first basemen in baseball have an OPS around .900 (or better)...and I think that is too high of a bar for Lind. There were only 7 qualifiers (at 1B) last year that had an OPS over .850 in all of MLB, and in 2010 there were only 10.

Lind will never live up to expectations if we think he is going to hit like a top 5 first basemen. He obviously isn't as good as Pujols, Fielder, Gonzalez, Votto and Cabrera (who I know plays 3B again this year)....and I don't think he is as good as Howard, Texeira, Berkman or Konerko either.

All we can really hope for is Lind to be an average first basemen...and if he can post an OPS of .850, he will have accomplished that.The problem I have is that AA has said that we need elite talent all over the diamond to try and win a world series. Why he can't accept the fact that Lind will never be an elite first basemen, and go get us one is quite puzzling/frustrating...

All I can think of is that he either has really high hopes for Mike McDade, or he is really setting his sights on Joey Votto next year and just praying he hits the open market...the team isn't being assembled for the 2012 season though, so its not like we needed to pay Fielder or Pujols 300M to try and get them to come here.


Obviously I would rather my first basemen be able to have a SLG% around .500 to go with his high OBP, but its not like we have a shortage of power up and down our lineup. We have 7 guys that could hit 20+ HR's without our first basemen. Once we get a solid hitting first basemen to solidify the clean up spot in our order...we are going to score a lot more runs. In my original post i had it at 850, but than i edited it and rounded it to 900. I stated good, first basemen, so i was talking about the top 3rd. However my point is that high offense production is expected at first base, where as a centrefielder who can produce good offense is a lot more valuable. Rasmus 2010 season of 850 OPS was top 5 offensively for CF, however, if Lind produced the same numbers, he would be a middle of the pact first basemen

mtf
03-22-2012, 03:40 PM
Well if you could read, rather than looking for semantics that you try rip, making yourself feel smarter...you would understand that what I was saying is that he swings at too many bad pitches and therefore pitchers throw him crap cuz they know he will swing at it...if he learns to lay off the crap and walk more, he will see more strikes...

It really is a simple point...

But you said he needs to walk more and that pitchers pitch around him. Pitching around him tends to mean that they get walked too much because they don't have protection, and you even suggested that batting Lawrie 5th to give him that protection would help his performance.

If you intended pitch around him to mean that they throw outside of the strike zone and he swings wildly at it (and I'm not quite sure how you intended others to infer that from your phrasing), then I dont see how Lawrie's presence would change that.

But sorry, apparently I can't read so I'm probably misunderstanding your super articulate and poignant brain farts.

wagnall
03-22-2012, 03:43 PM
Not sure what giving Lind protection does, when teams will walk Bautista to get to Lind esp. if its close and Bauts could tie it with 1 swing. They'd rather have the tying run on 1st with 2 outs and pitch to Lind. I hope he has the big numbers we need, but saying he needs to walk more is easier said than done.

Last 2 season combined

Bautista 1080 Ab's 232 walks and 227 SO.
Lind 1070 ABS 70 walks and 251 SO.

Don't expect him to be able to match Bautistas walk total, but some where in between, would give him probably a plus 330 OBP. with the power numbers that will do fine.
I guess, I really don't know why Lind would all of a sudden increase his walk totals so dramatically this season.

Just a thought! JMHO. This is not directed to anyone, just wanted to give some facts. :):)

mtf
03-22-2012, 03:45 PM
And let me just say mtf...I participate in this forum because for the most part because people are passionate, yet demonstrate some sort of class and intelligence in their posts...rather than being a jack ***...

If your looking for comments you can rip apart to make your self feel better I suggest you check out drunkjaysfan...last I checked you can swear there

Well, I thank you for your suggestion of another place to go on the internet because you are unhappy with my points of debate. But generally, if you are the one unsatisfied with your experience here, for whatever reason, you can correct that yourself instead of asking me to do it for you.

Also, I have no problem with language filters here. I've never expressed an issue with it. Why you decided to inform me of another sites lax policies regarding language is somewhat puzzling. It's also somewhat ironic, or perhaps hypocritical, that you are the one being filtered by them.

Ace Drivers
03-22-2012, 03:45 PM
Swing at less bad pitches = more walks = less bad pitches

coupled with a monster in Lawrie batting behind him = less bad pitches if he walks more

see simple...

mtf
03-22-2012, 03:48 PM
Swing at less bad pitches = more walks = less bad pitches

coupled with a monster in Lawrie batting behind him = less bad pitches if he walks more

see simple...

He could already swing at less bad pitches? Or does he need Lawrie to hold his hand to accomplish this task?

Ace Drivers
03-22-2012, 03:50 PM
Well, I thank you for your suggestion of another place to go on the internet because you are unhappy with my points of debate. But generally, if you are the one unsatisfied with your experience here, for whatever reason, you can correct that yourself instead of asking me to do it for you.

Also, I have no problem with language filters here. I've never expressed an issue with it. Why you decided to inform me of another sites lax policies regarding language is somewhat puzzling. It's also somewhat ironic, or perhaps hypocritical, that you are the one being filtered by them.

Ah so you can pick up on irony

Ace Drivers
03-22-2012, 03:54 PM
Not sure what giving Lind protection does, when teams will walk Bautista to get to Lind esp. if its close and Bauts could tie it with 1 swing. They'd rather have the tying run on 1st with 2 outs and pitch to Lind. I hope he has the big numbers we need, but saying he needs to walk more is easier said than done.

Last 2 season combined

Bautista 1080 Ab's 232 walks and 227 SO.
Lind 1070 ABS 70 walks and 251 SO.

Don't expect him to be able to match Bautistas walk total, but some where in between, would give him probably a plus 330 OBP. with the power numbers that will do fine.
I guess, I really don't know why Lind would all of a sudden increase his walk totals so dramatically this season.

Just a thought! JMHO. This is not directed to anyone, just wanted to give some facts. :):)

First let me thank you for an intelligent response...second, I don't know if he can do it...I just think that the big problem with Lind is obvious and I think it's correctable...well I hope it is...

mtf
03-22-2012, 03:55 PM
Ah so you can pick up on irony

Yep, I can also pick up on stupidity too which is what brought us together in the first place.

StealingSigns
03-22-2012, 04:32 PM
Guys... :eyebrow:

bartron_44
03-22-2012, 05:13 PM
In my original post i had it at 850, but than i edited it and rounded it to 900. I stated good, first basemen, so i was talking about the top 3rd. However my point is that high offense production is expected at first base, where as a centrefielder who can produce good offense is a lot more valuable. Rasmus 2010 season of 850 OPS was top 5 offensively for CF, however, if Lind produced the same numbers, he would be a middle of the pact first basemen

I totally agree with this. But that all Lind is ever going to be. An average first basemen. The reason he can only be an average first basemen though, is because there is no way he is going to play with the upper echelon sluggers to be considered elite. (This is why he needs to go :) )

If AA really wants an elite player at every position, we need to find ourselves an absolute effing stud....like the Bret Lawrie of first base prospects. we need to do this because those top guys are better then "good first basemen"....they set the bar a lot higher then "good". They are all ridiculous hitters, and expecting Lind to play up to their standards is asking too much..imho

Pujols
Fielder
Votto
Gonzalez
Howard
Berkman
Cabrera (if you still count him as a first basemen)


Most if not all of those guys could end up in the HOF. Not to mention Texeira and Konerko who have at least an outside shot at it as well with their numbers and rings to go with them..The position has to be the deepest of any baseball right now..and that is half the frustration. So many teams can boast a super hitting first basemen, yet AA can't seem to find a way to get one here...Ever since Delgado left, we have been lacking at first base. Overbay had a good season in 2006, but the last 5 years have been awful because we have to watch division rivals boast the likes of Texeira,Gonzo,Youk..Carlos Pena (in 2007 he was foolish) while we have had either a light hitting Overbay, or Lind (who's second half overshadowed his first half)


AA has managed to fill our pretty much every other position with a player with elite level talent.

3B-Lawrie
SS-Escobar/Hech (if he continues to hit)
2B-Escobar/Hech
C-TDA
OF- Gose,Marisnick,Bautista,Rasmus,Snider,Thames


Our future really points to Bautista playing 1B in the near future.
Once one or 2 more OF'er are ready to play everyday..we will need to move Jose in to 1B to get all their bats in the lineup. AA is really building for like 2014 imo. He actually has a working 5 year plan ;) We are good now, but we should be FOOLISH in 2014 once a few more top prospects crack the lineup, the rotation and the bullpen..

wamco
03-22-2012, 05:41 PM
I think .850 would suffice..Only the best first basemen in baseball have an OPS around .900 (or better)...and I think that is too high of a bar for Lind. There were only 7 qualifiers (at 1B) last year that had an OPS over .850 in all of MLB, and in 2010 there were only 10.

Lind will never live up to expectations if we think he is going to hit like a top 5 first basemen. He obviously isn't as good as Pujols, Fielder, Gonzalez, Votto and Cabrera (who I know plays 3B again this year)....and I don't think he is as good as Howard, Texeira, Berkman or Konerko either.

All we can really hope for is Lind to be an average first basemen...and if he can post an OPS of .850, he will have accomplished that.The problem I have is that AA has said that we need elite talent all over the diamond to try and win a world series. Why he can't accept the fact that Lind will never be an elite first basemen, and go get us one is quite puzzling/frustrating...

All I can think of is that he either has really high hopes for Mike McDade, or he is really setting his sights on Joey Votto next year and just praying he hits the open market...the team isn't being assembled for the 2012 season though, so its not like we needed to pay Fielder or Pujols 300M to try and get them to come here.


Obviously I would rather my first basemen be able to have a SLG% around .500 to go with his high OBP, but its not like we have a shortage of power up and down our lineup. We have 7 guys that could hit 20+ HR's without our first basemen. Once we get a solid hitting first basemen to solidify the clean up spot in our order...we are going to score a lot more runs.


I think konerko's career ops is around 850, I'd take that from my 1bman.

Farsight
03-22-2012, 05:42 PM
I totally agree with this. But that all Lind is ever going to be. An average first basemen. The reason he can only be an average first basemen though, is because there is no way he is going to play with the upper echelon sluggers to be considered elite. (This is why he needs to go :) )

If AA really wants an elite player at every position, we need to find ourselves an absolute effing stud....like the Bret Lawrie of first base prospects. we need to do this because those top guys are better then "good first basemen"....they set the bar a lot higher then "good". They are all ridiculous hitters, and expecting Lind to play up to their standards is asking too much..imho

Pujols
Fielder
Votto
Gonzalez
Howard
Berkman
Cabrera (if you still count him as a first basemen)


Most if not all of those guys could end up in the HOF. Not to mention Texeira and Konerko who have at least an outside shot at it as well with their numbers and rings to go with them..The position has to be the deepest of any baseball right now..and that is half the frustration. So many teams can boast a super hitting first basemen, yet AA can't seem to find a way to get one here...Ever since Delgado left, we have been lacking at first base. Overbay had a good season in 2006, but the last 5 years have been awful because we have to watch division rivals boast the likes of Texeira,Gonzo,Youk..Carlos Pena (in 2007 he was foolish) while we have had either a light hitting Overbay, or Lind (who's second half overshadowed his first half)


AA has managed to fill our pretty much every other position with a player with elite level talent.

3B-Lawrie
SS-Escobar/Hech (if he continues to hit)
2B-Escobar/Hech
C-TDA
OF- Gose,Marisnick,Bautista,Rasmus,Snider,Thames


Our future really points to Bautista playing 1B in the near future.
Once one or 2 more OF'er are ready to play everyday..we will need to move Jose in to 1B to get all their bats in the lineup. AA is really building for like 2014 imo. He actually has a working 5 year plan ;) We are good now, but we should be FOOLISH in 2014 once a few more top prospects crack the lineup, the rotation and the bullpen.. For the past year ive been arguing that he needs to ago. Moreover, i suggest that Bautista will move to 1b in the near future as hopefully some of out outfielders will stick, such as Snider, Gose, Marisnick, Rasmus, and Thames. We have a good first basemen of the future in Bautista, we are just hoping that our outfield pans out

Just as a side note, out of the first basemen you listed, currently i only see Puljos and Cabrera (unless he gets injured or forgets how to hit) going into the hall of fame. Votto, Fielder,Teixeira, and Gonzalez need a lot more years to prove that they can, and Berkman is fringe, he split so much time in the outfield and first that im not sure what people would qualify him as. Everyone else such as Howard, and Konerko should not make it, rings or no rings

JaysFan87
03-22-2012, 06:25 PM
Well if you could read, rather than looking for semantics that you try rip, making yourself feel smarter...you would understand that what I was saying is that he swings at too many bad pitches and therefore pitchers throw him crap cuz they know he will swing at it...if he learns to lay off the crap and walk more, he will see more strikes...

It really is a simple point...

If you look at the "stats" you'd see he never could do what you are asking him to do....that being walk and decrease the K's.

Farsight
03-22-2012, 06:29 PM
If you look at the "stats" you'd see he never could do what you are asking him to do....that being walk and decrease the K's.i agree. Ace is pretty much suggesting that he doubles his walk rate, and ends somewhere close to 13%. He sat around 6% last year, but such a big drastic improvement wont likely occur, unless he pulls a 180 like Bautista and has a new swing/approach

DVS
03-22-2012, 07:32 PM
I know he has a 7.5mil contract this year and strikes out like crazy. But for conversation purposes and protection for Buatista (when he doesn't strikeout) what do you guys think about Mark Reynolds.

http://www.cbssports.com/mlb/blog/eye-on-baseball/17970548/orioles-shopping-kevin-gregg-mark-reynolds

FYI personally I don't want him, just wanted to see what you guys thought, since a lot people have been upset about the lack of pursuit for Bautista's protection.

wamco
03-22-2012, 07:54 PM
Lind is out soon enough, time for a 1bman, although I think the prudent move as Jbau ages would be to put him there and find an OF (maris-gose might time perfectly)

BBB
03-23-2012, 03:08 AM
Never underestimate Lindsanity.

Ace Drivers
03-23-2012, 09:35 AM
If you look at the "stats" you'd see he never could do what you are asking him to do....that being walk and decrease the K's.

I agree...as I said I don't know if he can do it, but I hope your wrong...

Second, Bautista assuming he can keep up his monstrous hitting, won't be ready for 1b for at least 3 - 4 years...his arm and defense in RF, which is pretty good the last i checked, will have to drop off dramatically for us to consider moving him to first...

If we are to part ways with Lind, and this really should be his last chance, I would rather go get an established guy at the position...Votto would be amazing next year, and of the "elite 1B's" in the league, he's one guy I could see wanting to come to Toronto given his ties to the city. Hopefully he wants to achieve Hero Status...and Toronto is place where that can happen...hopefully its not just about the Money for him...regardless of where he goes he will get paid handsomely.

KaiserSose
03-23-2012, 09:37 AM
I think it is pretty obvious that AA will not address this position until he takes a run at Votto in the off-season. The best we can hope for is that he gives E5 the majority of AB's.

AA09-?
03-23-2012, 09:44 AM
I think it is pretty obvious that AA will not address this position until he takes a run at Votto in the off-season. The best we can hope for is that he gives E5 the majority of AB's.

FYI, Votto isn't a FA until after the 2013 season.

Ace Drivers
03-23-2012, 09:58 AM
FYI, Votto isn't a FA until after the 2013 season.

Do we know what kind of free agent he is? Could he simply walk away...or does have some sort of restricted status like Hockey...too be honest I get very confused in how this works in baseball, between options...compensation etc.

If the reds tank this year, and Votto quietly makes it known he's outta there he could easily get traded...and he's a player I would give up assets for.

The thing that worries me is they traded there heir apparent in Alonso...leading me to believe he's not going anywhere

mtf
03-23-2012, 10:07 AM
Do we know what kind of free agent he is? Could he simply walk away...or does have some sort of restricted status like Hockey...too be honest I get very confused in how this works in baseball, between options...compensation etc.

If the reds tank this year, and Votto quietly makes it known he's outta there he could easily get traded...and he's a player I would give up assets for.

The thing that worries me is they traded there heir apparent in Alonso...leading me to believe he's not going anywhere

Joey Votto's last contract with the Reds took up all of his arbitration eligible years. He will be a free agent at the end of 2013, which means he is free to sign with any team he wishes at that time.

The Reds have reloaded this year, attempting to turn it around after a disappointing 2011. If it didn't work, they may look to move him but he's made it clear that he'll be looking for a 9-10 year deal and there's definitely teams out there that would give it to him. The Blue Jays are not necessarily one of them, due to their self-imposed contractual restrictions.

JaysHabs
03-23-2012, 10:12 AM
I like Lind, and if he remains healthy and consistent and steps into the ball more often (rather than the *** out swing he sometimes throws in there) he will be a top 10 offensive 1st baseman in the league.

Last year over a full 162 games sure he hits only .251 but 34 hrs and 113 rbis aint bad. Obviously you would like to see him raise his OBP to at least .340 and SLG to .850 but I have faith he will do it.

Really only Votto, Fielder, Pujols, Cabrera, Howard, Gonzalez, Texeira had better years last year than Lind. Maybe I missed a few, maybe some people will look to far into some obscure stats, but unless you get one of those guys, whats the point, Lind will hit .290, 30, 100 this year.

Mark my words....and the ones where I said the Jays will win the AL East.
GO Jays

dero
03-23-2012, 10:41 AM
Should platoon Cooper and Shealy with Cooper getting most the starts. Combined it costs you less than Lind and Cooper gets at-bats in the bigs. Shealy draws walks and drives in runs while costing you around 400k. After this season go big for Votto.

AA09-?
03-23-2012, 12:45 PM
I like Lind, and if he remains healthy and consistent and steps into the ball more often (rather than the *** out swing he sometimes throws in there) he will be a top 10 offensive 1st baseman in the league.

Last year over a full 162 games sure he hits only .251 but 34 hrs and 113 rbis aint bad. Obviously you would like to see him raise his OBP to at least .340 and SLG to .850 but I have faith he will do it.

Really only Votto, Fielder, Pujols, Cabrera, Howard, Gonzalez, Texeira had better years last year than Lind. Maybe I missed a few, maybe some people will look to far into some obscure stats, but unless you get one of those guys, whats the point, Lind will hit .290, 30, 100 this year.

Mark my words....and the ones where I said the Jays will win the AL East.
GO Jays

Actually Lind ranked 18th amongst qualified 1B in OPS. I love your optimism (as far as 2012 predictions), but I think it's far from realistic.

AA09-?
03-23-2012, 12:46 PM
Should platoon Cooper and Shealy with Cooper getting most the starts. Combined it costs you less than Lind and Cooper gets at-bats in the bigs. Shealy draws walks and drives in runs while costing you around 400k. After this season go big for Votto.

:confused:

KaiserSose
03-23-2012, 01:55 PM
FYI, Votto isn't a FA until after the 2013 season.

You are right. I should of checked Cot's before posting but I thought it was this season for whatever reason. Anyway, the point still stands. I don't think AA is going to make a move for a "star" first baseman until after he has a chance to bid on Votto. I don't mind as long as E5 is in the lineup.

wagnall
03-23-2012, 03:59 PM
Again, when ever Votto comes available he will want no less than what Fielder got, and I don't see the Jays breaking the bank like that for a 30 year old. I read some article, sorry no link, but Votto was asked his opinion on the Fielder contract and the 5 year term came up, and Votto said that 5 is too short of a full commitment to the player.
Read into that what you will, but I think unless Beeston and Rogers toss the plan book out the door and go in firing, I don't see Votto here ever.

wagnall
03-23-2012, 04:05 PM
I like Lind, and if he remains healthy and consistent and steps into the ball more often (rather than the *** out swing he sometimes throws in there) he will be a top 10 offensive 1st baseman in the league.

Last year over a full 162 games sure he hits only .251 but 34 hrs and 113 rbis aint bad. Obviously you would like to see him raise his OBP to at least .340 and SLG to .850 but I have faith he will do it.

Really only Votto, Fielder, Pujols, Cabrera, Howard, Gonzalez, Texeira had better years last year than Lind. Maybe I missed a few, maybe some people will look to far into some obscure stats, but unless you get one of those guys, whats the point, Lind will hit .290, 30, 100 this year.

Mark my words....and the ones where I said the Jays will win the AL East.
GO Jays



Love your optimism, would be something if after all these years he actually learns how to take a walk. And I wasn't aware he hit 34 bombs and 113 RBI's. last season. I really don't go for projections, for all we know is he MAY of hit those numbers, but who's to know. :):confused:

town123
03-23-2012, 06:09 PM
Problem is the pitching in the PCL is absolutely atrocious, front offices don't send good pitchers there. The fact that he draws walks there does not guarantee he draws walks in the majors and good pitchers will pound the strike zone forcing him to put the ball in play. Also high OBP's in the majors are usually highly correlated with power and sometimes speed, neither of those skills Cooper is very accomplished at. I think your best case scenario for Cooper is a bad defensive version of James Loney, nothing I would get excited about or would want to appoint my next 1B in the AL East.

And all things being equal.... Cooper is the guy that outclassed everyone else in the league. Not going to suggest an Olerud comparison, but the kid has certainly earned an extended look. I got beat up promoting Jose's bat before steady AB's , now I hear it over EE and Cooper. Z'all good.

ah nuts
03-23-2012, 09:34 PM
This should be Lind's and EE's last year to be sub par.

mike_noodles
03-23-2012, 11:21 PM
Yeah, I'm a Lind fan and I give him the benefit of the doubt for the first 6 weeks, if he doesn't produce, cya.

wamco
03-24-2012, 06:09 AM
Actually Lind ranked 18th amongst qualified 1B in OPS. I love your optimism (as far as 2012 predictions), but I think it's far from realistic.

ya, an 850 slugging mark would be the best of all time.

SLS80
03-24-2012, 08:48 AM
WTF? Whats with bashing Lind? In 125 games last year he hit 26 HRS and had 87 RBI's. WTF? get off him. I just hope he can stay healthy and find his double stroke after batting .251. Not bad for a 1 bag. jeeeeez

SLS80
03-24-2012, 08:52 AM
WTF? Whats with bashing Lind? In 125 games last year he hit 26 HRS and had 87 RBI's. WTF? get off him. I just hope he can stay healthy and find his double stroke after batting .251. Not bad for a 1 bag. jeeeeez

not bad for any player trying to make a living in the bigs

SLS80
03-24-2012, 08:58 AM
Andrew Stoeten is a fall down f@k in the *****

mtf
03-24-2012, 10:25 AM
Really only Votto, Fielder, Pujols, Cabrera, Howard, Gonzalez, Texeira had better years last year than Lind. Maybe I missed a few, maybe some people will look to far into some obscure stats, but unless you get one of those guys, whats the point, Lind will hit .290, 30, 100 this year.

I'm not sure if you think fWAR is an "obscure statistic", but here's how Lind stacked up against other first-basemen around baseball in 2011 (http://www.fangraphs.com/leaders.aspx?pos=1b&stats=bat&lg=all&qual=0&type=8&season=2011&month=0&season1=2011&ind=0&team=0&rost=0&players=0&sort=20%2cd) (note: you must go to page 2 of 3 in the table of data).

Toronto fans (of all 3 major professional sports teams in the city) tend to get emotionally involved with players. It's been said in the media that players here are seen by fans in the city as either 35% better than they actually are or 35% worse than they actually are based on emotional involvement. Try to take a step back and take a look at the reality of the situation. He is not a top first-baseman, and this has been 2 years in a row of poor performance (save for 1 month in the early 2011 season).

mike_noodles
03-24-2012, 02:11 PM
WTF? Whats with bashing Lind? In 125 games last year he hit 26 HRS and had 87 RBI's. WTF? get off him. I just hope he can stay healthy and find his double stroke after batting .251. Not bad for a 1 bag. jeeeeez

Be careful what you say around here. The mob may want to hang you for not using .OPS or sabremetrics.

Cooshman
03-24-2012, 03:55 PM
WTF? Whats with bashing Lind? In 125 games last year he hit 26 HRS and had 87 RBI's. WTF? get off him. I just hope he can stay healthy and find his double stroke after batting .251. Not bad for a 1 bag. jeeeeez

LOL - The OBP and OPS crew is going to start swarming anytime on this post!!
P.S. - I am a Lind believer too....I think Lind is going to be a top 10 1B in the league and make all the haters on here eat their words.

wamco
03-24-2012, 04:48 PM
yes, using ops, the stat that explains how runs are created would be stupid. use RBI instead! Is this 1994?

Kenny Powders
03-24-2012, 05:00 PM
yes, using ops, the stat that explains how runs are created would be stupid. use RBI instead! Is this 1994?

Exactly. How some people can't wrap their head around the fact that OPS is a much more usefull stat then RBI is mind boggling.

Cooshman
03-24-2012, 05:45 PM
Exactly. How some people can't wrap their head around the fact that OPS is a much more usefull stat then RBI is mind boggling.

LOL - love that you still have my post up....
P.S. - no one ever said that OPS is not a useful stat...the point is that you live and die by this stat and there is so much more to real life baseball then looking at one or 2 stats. You and your ilk want to throw Lind aside for a bag of baseballs and to that I laugh out loud at you!! Lind will prove you wrong and even then you will come up with some stupid geek excuse...and I will be loving it every second.

Kenny Powders
03-24-2012, 05:53 PM
LOL - love that you still have my post up....
P.S. - no one ever said that OPS is not a useful stat...the point is that you live and die by this stat and there is so much more to real life baseball then looking at one or 2 stats. You and your ilk want to throw Lind aside for a bag of baseballs and to that I laugh out loud at you!! Lind will prove you wrong and even then you will come up with some stupid geek excuse...and I will be loving it every second.

Funny you seem to bring up RBI's every time. Theres much more to baseball then RBIs.

You are entertaining if nothing else.

Cooshman
03-24-2012, 06:06 PM
Funny you seem to bring up RBI's every time. Theres much more to baseball then RBIs.

You are entertaining if nothing else.

The funny thing actually is how many times someone can be wrong about the same thing. I have repeated many many many times to you specifically that OPS and OBP are important stats to analyze - and I have also said that RBI's in itself is not what I deem important but a combination of HR, RBI and Runs...
Yet you keep repeating yourself like a broken record....

Don't let facts get in your way....

Twitchy
03-24-2012, 06:12 PM
Let's try not to turn this in to an "I like advanced stats" and "no advanced stats suck get out of your mother's basement" kind of deal, shall we? I'm not going to warn you guys again. Let's get this thread back on topic or I'll have to lock it.

Cooshman
03-24-2012, 06:22 PM
Let's try not to turn this in to an "I like advanced stats" and "no advanced stats suck get out of your mother's basement" kind of deal, shall we? I'm not going to warn you guys again. Let's get this thread back on topic or I'll have to lock it.

Don't you think it sorta is on topic when we are mostly talking about Lind in this regards.
:D

JaysFan87
03-24-2012, 06:35 PM
how are "runs" useful for anything?

Cooshman
03-24-2012, 06:38 PM
how are "runs" useful for anything?

Seriously!! Runs are completely meaningless....they have nothing to do with winning!!

:facepalm:

mtf
03-24-2012, 06:51 PM
Seriously!! Runs are completely meaningless....they have nothing to do with winning!!

:facepalm:

I know you think you're defending a common sense position, but you're not. When you give it more than half a second of thought, you realize that "runs" as an individual players statistical category is nothing more than a representation of how good the players behind them are. Similarly, "rbi's" are a representation of how many times the players in front of you get on base. Players in stronger lineups will always have a better opportunity to stack these. It is not a valid representation of a specific players skill or contributions.

Cooshman
03-24-2012, 07:20 PM
I know you think you're defending a common sense position, but you're not. When you give it more than half a second of thought, you realize that "runs" as an individual players statistical category is nothing more than a representation of how good the players behind them are. Similarly, "rbi's" are a representation of how many times the players in front of you get on base. Players in stronger lineups will always have a better opportunity to stack these. It is not a valid representation of a specific players skill or contributions.

So, batters who are more aggressive that turn singles into doubles, doubles into triples.....or great base runners that go first to third on singles, or faster players that steal bases, go 2nd to to home - in your mind, is meaningless as anyone would score depending on "how good the the players behind the " are??

StealingSigns
03-24-2012, 07:23 PM
So, batters who are more aggressive that turn singles into doubles, doubles into triples.....or great base runners that go first to third on singles, or faster players that steal bases, go 2nd to to home - in your mind, is meaningless as anyone would score depending on "how good the the players behind the " are??

That's what slugging percentage calculates.

Cooshman
03-24-2012, 07:28 PM
That's what slugging percentage calculates.

Stil need to score the runs though...

JaysFan87
03-24-2012, 07:28 PM
Seriously!! Runs are completely meaningless....they have nothing to do with winning!!

:facepalm:

They do as a whole but not individually. Even a player gets on base at a horrible .285 clip but is placed at the top of the lineup, he will in all likelihood lead the team is runs scored becasue the best hitters are going to drive him in. But just because he lead the team in runs scored doesnt make him a good player becasue compared to other players he is still horrible. Runs scored are 100 percent predicated on who hits behind you.

JaysFan87
03-24-2012, 07:31 PM
Oh boy this conversation is going no where quickly....

JermanJaysFan
03-24-2012, 07:34 PM
Just drop it guys. Can't you be content to have a "leg up on the competition", as it were?

---

Back on topic. Lind stinks unless he gets better. Then he doesn't stink anymore. Proceed.

Mell413
03-24-2012, 07:46 PM
I actually think Lind will turn it around. His babip was low considering his line drive %. Plus I think the teams philosophy at the plate had an effect on him. He was much more patient in 2009. His plate discipline has gotten away from him.

Cooshman
03-24-2012, 07:49 PM
They do as a whole but not individually. Even a player gets on base at a horrible .285 clip but is placed at the top of the lineup, he will in all likelihood lead the team is runs scored becasue the best hitters are going to drive him in. But just because he lead the team in runs scored doesnt make him a good player becasue compared to other players he is still horrible. Runs scored are 100 percent predicated on who hits behind you.

I completely disagree....put 2 different players at the top of a line up that has the same hitters following them and you could have one of the guys our score the other buy 20 runs....same as in the middle or bottom of the lineup. Or maybe you think that all baserunners have the exact same base running skills!?!?!

Cooshman
03-24-2012, 07:54 PM
Just drop it guys. Can't you be content to have a "leg up on the competition", as it were?

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Back on topic. Lind stinks unless he gets better. Then he doesn't stink anymore. Proceed.

OK..agreed...I am done.

Lind has had an up and down career - he had a very nice first half followed by a completely terrible 2nd half (last year)....I think he can return to 2009 form with health and some confidence. We aren't a playoff team yet so Lind will have one last shot to show he is part of the future or playing his last year as a Jay.

StealingSigns
03-24-2012, 07:54 PM
If you want to continue to discuss the merits of runs scored, I suggest you create another thread, instead of continuing to hijack this one. This will be locked if this continues.

Cooshman
03-24-2012, 07:59 PM
Not sure if you are directing your post to me but I wasn't the one who started the whole "run's are meaningless" topic...i just replied to it...
Anyhow, done now and back on to Lind.

mtf
03-24-2012, 08:58 PM
So, batters who are more aggressive that turn singles into doubles, doubles into triples.....or great base runners that go first to third on singles, or faster players that steal bases, go 2nd to to home - in your mind, is meaningless as anyone would score depending on "how good the the players behind the " are??

Turning singles into doubles, or doubles into triples, is reflected on your OPS by the way. It is only in circumstances where players behind them get a hit to drive them in where they would gain a statistical advantage in your "Runs & RBIs are awesome" analysis.

For example, if Yunel Escobar gets a double, and Jose Bautista comes up next and drives him home with a home run, Escobar gets a +1 in the Runs category on his stat line. Later in the same game, Brett Lawrie doubles but Colby Rasmus follows by striking out to end the inning, does that mean Escobar performed better than Lawrie because he got a +1 in the run category? It's a flawed stat and not representative of a players contributions.

In reference to your base stealing inquiry, stolen bases are also a category until itself as well and is relevant.