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View Full Version : Whats with the PF position and defense?



Hellcrooner
03-21-2012, 12:23 PM
SOme years ago Power fowards had many great defenders, Mchale, Malone, even specialist defenders like Horace Grant, Ac Green,Rambis, mckey, Charles oakley etc.

In the mid 90s there were still two great PF defenders in Garnett and Malone, but the trend with "i dont care for D " started with the likes of Webber.

Nowdays, you see a top 10 list of Pf and EVERY SINGLE ONE OF them gets blamed for not being good defenders.

Dirk= not a good defender.
Pau = "soft not a good defender"
gRIFFIN = Awfull defender.
Stoudamire= does not even try.
Bosh= Not a good defender.
Love = not a good defender
Randolph = not a good defender.
Scola= horrible defender.
Boozer= the worst of all them?
Aldrige= ON the fence, he seems to play similar defense to others but dont get usually called out by fans for poor d or softness.

and so on.


Why does this happen?

Or maybe they are not that bad and people exagerate the issue because they dont look big and tough.?

justinnum1
03-21-2012, 12:25 PM
bosh is a good defender. not a great defender, not a bad defender, but a good defender.

Hellcrooner
03-21-2012, 12:26 PM
bosh is a good defender. not a great defender, not a bad defender, but a good defender.

i coudl say the same bout Pau or dirk.

Btu the point is the GENERAL consensus is none of them are.

Gram
03-21-2012, 12:33 PM
What's with crooner's threads always having to mention Pau? ;)

AndyfromNeptune
03-21-2012, 12:34 PM
It's really become a pick and roll, pick and pop, and ISO league.


Thus, power forwards really have more pressure to carry their weight on offense.

Meaze_Gibson
03-21-2012, 12:34 PM
Because they didn't have to work for their minutes. Majority of the players like charles oakley, horace grant, etc had to prove that they should get min. They proved this by hustling, playing d, and hitting the occasional jumper. Getting in a hustling mode is the perfect mindset for good defense. Even with KG, Jermaine Oneal, Rasheed etc, They werent promised starter min from the jump and that is a reason why they are leaders in defense today.

Many of today's fours are promised min before they actually earned them. They are delivered the keys and in a sense rewarded for their lack of a complete game.

BTW I think Bosh should not be on the list. and K Love is on come up.

AndyfromNeptune
03-21-2012, 12:35 PM
.

Chronz
03-21-2012, 12:35 PM
Yea some of those have been good defenders in the past, just inconsistent throughout their careers. But if true, maybe defense has become a specialist for centers, a way of making up for their lack of offense.

AndyfromNeptune
03-21-2012, 12:37 PM
And as I always said during the D'antoni era, Amare doesnt have time for defense! He needs to save his energy for offense !!!

AndyfromNeptune
03-21-2012, 12:37 PM
Notice OP didn't put Kevin Garnett on this list ;)

Meaze_Gibson
03-21-2012, 12:38 PM
i coudl say the same bout Pau or dirk.

Btu the point is the GENERAL consensus is none of them are.

I feel you bout Pau but no way for dirk. Dude doesn't even attempt to play d until playoffs. Even then you get mixed results. And also consensus on Bosh changed by most analysts and fans during the Redeem Team games.

haggis
03-21-2012, 12:44 PM
WTF BoZER!?!?!?!?

justinnum1
03-21-2012, 12:45 PM
Joel anthony is the most underrated P&R defender in the league imo

Hellcrooner
03-21-2012, 12:46 PM
Notice OP didn't put Kevin Garnett on this list ;)

i said kevin and tim used to play deffense when they were in their prime.

they are no longer top 10 pf thats why they are not on the list.

Hellcrooner
03-21-2012, 12:47 PM
WTF BoZER!?!?!?!?

good call, boozer should be on the list too.

AndyfromNeptune
03-21-2012, 12:47 PM
Joel anthony is the most underrated P&R defender in the league imo

I didn't know there were a lot of ratings regarding defending the pick and roll.


And it's a lot easier to guard it knowing you have three great defenders in Chalmers, Wade, and Lebron to help you recover.


I think Tyson Chandler is one of the best P n R defenders...him and Noah

Swashcuff
03-21-2012, 12:47 PM
Yeah I mean KG is still the cream of the crop defensively when it comes to the PF position but even he is a shell of his former self overall. Sad thing is there are so many athletic PFs who have the natural tools to be good on that end of the floor.

kdspurman
03-21-2012, 12:49 PM
bosh is a good defender. not a great defender, not a bad defender, but a good defender.

That dude is a horrible help defender. his on man defense might be decent at best.

Super.
03-21-2012, 12:51 PM
Notice OP didn't put Kevin Garnett on this list ;)


i said kevin and tim used to play deffense when they were in their prime.

they are no longer top 10 pf thats why they are not on the list.

KG is ranked 9th in defensive win shares, and 4th in Defensive Rating on Basketball Reference OVERALL in the league.

kdspurman
03-21-2012, 12:51 PM
i said kevin and tim used to play deffense when they were in their prime.

they are no longer top 10 pf thats why they are not on the list.

What's funny is KG/Tim are arguably still better defenders than anyone on that list on a consistent basis.

Swashcuff
03-21-2012, 12:53 PM
i said kevin and tim used to play deffense when they were in their prime.

they are no longer top 10 pf thats why they are not on the list.

Crooner have you watched TD and KG defensively this season?

Hellcrooner
03-21-2012, 12:57 PM
Crooner have you watched TD and KG defensively this season?

yes but they are veterans, from another generation and no longer top 10 pfs.
im asking bout the evolution of the position, most of the people in the list is much younger than them.

Swashcuff
03-21-2012, 12:59 PM
yes but they are veterans, from another generation and no longer top 10 pfs.
im asking bout the evolution of the position, most of the people in the list is much younger than them.

Just curious as to who you have in your top 10 ahead of those two.

Hellcrooner
03-21-2012, 01:07 PM
Just curious as to who you have in your top 10 ahead of those two.

this year?
in no order.
Pau/DIrk/Love/Griffin/Stoudamire/Bosh/Randolph/Boozer/Aldrige/Bargnani/MIllsap/David Lee/

kdspurman
03-21-2012, 01:09 PM
this year?
in no order.
Pau/DIrk/Love/Griffin/Stoudamire/Bosh/Randolph/Boozer/Aldrige/Bargnani/MIllsap/David Lee/

Wow. You even included Randolph who has hardly played this year. That pretty much says it all for this list.

Swashcuff
03-21-2012, 01:14 PM
this year?
in no order.
Pau/DIrk/Love/Griffin/Stoudamire/Bosh/Randolph/Boozer/Aldrige/Bargnani/MIllsap/David Lee/

I asked who is better defensively Crooner not who is worst. The only good defenders in that bunch are Millsap, Aldridge and Bosh. Love, Pau and Dirk are okay and the others are atrocious.

How on earth can Randolph be better defensively than Kevin Garnett and Tim Duncan when he hasn't even played enough this year?

What about Serge, Elton Brand, Taj Gibson, Josh Smith, Nick Collison, Kris Humphries etc

Crooner you're MUCH better than that you can't seriously think Amar'e, Bargs and Boozer are better than Josh Smith and Serge Ibaka.

Hellcrooner
03-21-2012, 01:16 PM
I asked who is better defensively Crooner not who is worst. The only good defenders in that bunch are Millsap, Aldridge and Bosh. Love, Pau and Dirk are okay and the others are atrocious.

How on earth can Randolph be better defensively than Kevin Garnett and Tim Duncan when he hasn't even played enough this year?

What about Serge, Elton Brand, Taj Gibson, Josh Smith, Nick Collison, Kris Humphries etc

Crooner you're MUCH better than that you can't seriously think Amar'e, Bargs and Boozer are better than Josh Smith and Serge Ibaka.

i thought you were talking bout players better than them OVERALL this year.

Not defensively, obviously they are top of the crop in defense, and all the players surroding them in that list are role players.
Thats what im talking bout.
Past STAR PF were able to play D, current STAR Pf cant play d or so people say.

valade16
03-21-2012, 01:48 PM
Seriously guys, do you not get Hellcrooner's point?

The reason he isn't including Tim Duncan and Kevin Garnett is they are not the current nor future generation of PFs in the league!

They are the previous generation of PFs, he is talking about how the current and future generations of PF don't seem to be as good on the defensive end as those previous guys!

By constantly bringing up how much better Garnett and Duncan are than the rest of the PFs in the league your only furthering his point...

Hellcrooner
03-21-2012, 01:49 PM
Seriously guys, do you not get Hellcrooner's point?

The reason he isn't including Tim Duncan and Kevin Garnett is they are not the current nor future generation of PFs in the league!

They are the previous generation of PFs, he is talking about how the current and future generations of PF don't seem to be as good on the defensive end as those previous guys!

By constantly bringing up how much better Garnett and Duncan are than the rest of the PFs in the league your only furthering his point...

pretty much.

Sly Guy
03-21-2012, 02:34 PM
defense comes down to effort, and I just don't see many of them putting in the kind of work to be labelled as one. I remember watching Griffin in his first couple weeks in the NBA, and the dude was working hard on the defensive end. He's capable, but I guess not driven to be 'good'. It may be nothing more than a mentality that 'I can turn it one when I want to' rather than a habit.

Swashcuff
03-21-2012, 02:35 PM
i thought you were talking bout players better than them OVERALL this year.

Not defensively, obviously they are top of the crop in defense, and all the players surroding them in that list are role players.
Thats what im talking bout.
Past STAR PF were able to play D, current STAR Pf cant play d or so people say.

Apologies Crooner I misunderstood what you were trying to say.

NY Drizzy
03-21-2012, 03:06 PM
most of those guys play good offense so some coaches look past all that

CudiOnMyiPod
03-21-2012, 03:13 PM
Dirk is an average defender. I swear he gets so much **** for his defense.

Joshtd1
03-21-2012, 05:54 PM
It's an offensive minded league now...that and unless you're already known for defense, anything you do will get called for a foul. IMO anyway.

Vincent
03-21-2012, 06:08 PM
I never thought Paul Gasol was a bad defender.

I wouldn't say Paul Millsap is a good defender, or David Lee, or Ryan Anderson.

Yeah, it's not that great of an era for defensive PFs.

John Walls Era
03-21-2012, 06:13 PM
Actually Bosh is a good defender. He can't shut anyone down 1 on 1, but if we are talking about understanding team defense and where to go then he is considered good.

Fnom11
03-21-2012, 06:15 PM
Actually Bosh is a good defender. He can't shut anyone down 1 on 1, but if we are talking about understanding team defense and where to go then he is considered good.

Like that other guy said, Millsap, Bosh, and Aldridge are pretty good but everyone else is just meh in my opinion.

THE GIPPER
03-21-2012, 06:15 PM
Yeah I mean KG is still the cream of the crop defensively when it comes to the PF position but even he is a shell of his former self overall. Sad thing is there are so many athletic PFs who have the natural tools to be good on that end of the floor.

You'd take KG over Ibaka defensively?

NSJ
03-21-2012, 06:23 PM
You'd take KG over Ibaka defensively?

I would take KG defensively still because he facilitates the whole defense while he's on the floor. Ibaka is better in some instances, probably individual defense, but KG helps the team defense so much with his rotations and allows other guys on the floor feel more comfortable cheating knowing that others will be there.

MackSnackWrap
03-21-2012, 06:25 PM
Bosh is a good defender

Bos_Sports4Life
03-21-2012, 07:36 PM
You'd take KG over Ibaka defensively?

Overall impact it's still KG..

But KG is fading every yr and Ibaka is only 22...So thats going too change pretty soon

kdspurman
03-21-2012, 07:50 PM
You'd take KG over Ibaka defensively?

Easily. Ibaka is a shot blocker. KG does so many other things

kdspurman
03-21-2012, 07:55 PM
Actually Bosh is a good defender. He can't shut anyone down 1 on 1, but if we are talking about understanding team defense and where to go then he is considered good.

I think he's a pretty bad team defender. So many times he is late on his rotations, doesn't help protect the paint, and guys so often just layup or finish around the rim with little resistance from him.

topdog
03-21-2012, 07:57 PM
defense comes down to effort, and I just don't see many of them putting in the kind of work to be labelled as one. I remember watching Griffin in his first couple weeks in the NBA, and the dude was working hard on the defensive end. He's capable, but I guess not driven to be 'good'. It may be nothing more than a mentality that 'I can turn it one when I want to' rather than a habit.

There's a lot more to it than that. Mark Madsen's defense was effort. A good defender both puts in the effort and studies the tape for positioning and angles and whatnot. Using the sidelines to trap players and corraling them into help when they drive the lane.

I think sports n general have put a greater emphasis on offense as scoring plays are generally more exciting and that results in ticket sales. There are a lot more stats to be had on offense. And I agree that the center in a sense has become the designated defender and the PF is supposed to work form 20ft inward and create the offense.

VCaintdead17
03-21-2012, 08:00 PM
Your claim is not entirely true. There are still a fair amount of defensive minded power forwards.


Chuck Hayes, Serge Ibaka, Elton Brand, Emeka Okafor,Josh Smith, Paul Milsap, Chris Bosh are all well above average defenders

CudiOnMyiPod
03-21-2012, 10:05 PM
I don't get why Dirk gets so much **** for defense but people call Bosh a good defender. They are the same defensively. Nothing great but average.

beasted86
03-21-2012, 10:36 PM
I don't get why Dirk gets so much **** for defense but people call Bosh a good defender. They are the same defensively. Nothing great but average.

Watch the two play Bosh is definitely better. He's not a DPOY buy he's clearly better.

Bosh moves laterally and recovers on the pick and roll a lot better. Dirk is a liability in the pick and roll.

Dirk has over the years mastered the timing on stripping players going up for shots in the lane and getting steals or stops in this way, but that's not fundamentally sound defense.

kjoke
03-21-2012, 10:38 PM
I know English isn't your first language, but considering you made a new thread and not a post, you could at least try to make it somewhat nicer to look at :shrug:

But yeah, you don't have that defensive stud in this day in age

Swashcuff
03-21-2012, 11:05 PM
I don't get why Dirk gets so much **** for defense but people call Bosh a good defender. They are the same defensively. Nothing great but average.

Really dude you must not have seen Chris Bosh these last two seasons. I don't think anyone who has and has seen Dirk at his best defensively would confused them as being the same on that end of the floor just as no one would say they are the same offensively either.