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rubeus
03-21-2012, 09:31 AM
Looks like the rotation is already in trouble.

After Romero and Morrow.

Cecil's velocity is still down.
McGowan hasn't pitched 3 complete innings yet, jsut got shelled by the redsox
Alveraz only has 2 pitches (fastball, changeup, no breaking pitch)

This looks like we're in a whole heap of trouble.

KaiserSose
03-21-2012, 10:03 AM
If only someone in this forum suggested signing Edwin Jackson!

I'm not worried about Henderson though.

Stress
03-21-2012, 10:09 AM
i know, right.
theres a million quality starting pitchers just lying around....

JaysFan87
03-21-2012, 10:17 AM
everyone panic....its MARCH 21 the season is over...

Kelly Gruber
03-21-2012, 10:23 AM
Been saying this for a while. Depth is most definitely needed. But hard to get. Probably the thing that will hold us back until we can develop some arms. Anyone really available would be a marginal upgrade at considerable cost to attain.

rubeus
03-21-2012, 10:25 AM
3 out of 5 as big question marks is a reason to panic.

agree might not be anything available, but they got to look for something.

Stress
03-21-2012, 10:37 AM
the last 2-3 seasons the starting pitching has been pretty much the same.
one thing i believe is different this year compared to the past couple of seasons is our bullpen.
we now have a quality bullpen(on paper) to offset our adequate-level starting pitching.
we should be alright.
cant wait to see janssen/cordero/santos shut teams down in the later innings of games.

boilerguy2412
03-21-2012, 10:50 AM
There is always someone that gets released at the end of spring training that we could pick up as our 5. We need someone like a John Garland someone who can eat innings. I am sure AA is on the lookout.

Sanyo
03-21-2012, 11:40 AM
I doubt they look -- they'll give everyone the benefit of the doubt to start the season and then have Jenkins, McGuire and then Hutch ready to go...you still didnt include Drabek as well who will also get another shot.

McGowan will be a concern later in the year as the Jays have said they dont plan to let him go the distance but by then one of the four mentioned above will get a shot.

I think they'll get a pitcher who comes cheap. Otherwise I think they stay where they are.

JaysFan87
03-21-2012, 11:48 AM
There is always someone that gets released at the end of spring training that we could pick up as our 5. We need someone like a John Garland someone who can eat innings. I am sure AA is on the lookout.

Like a jenkins or mcguire...

dballss
03-21-2012, 11:50 AM
ricky gonna be fine, morrow will improve enough, the other 3 will have 7-8 starts max if they struggle drabek, hutch, laffey, beck are all waiting...they cant all struggle right? if they do, then we panic and panic a lot

mtf
03-21-2012, 11:57 AM
If only someone in this forum suggested signing Edwin Jackson!lol, right. EJ is totally the answer....

The jays aren't going to win a pennant this year, so no need to pick up pitchers to patch short term holes with the probability of only mediocre success. If Cecil and/or McGowan drop out of the rotation, Drabek or Hutchison will get their chance.

MrForever
03-21-2012, 12:26 PM
I'd much rather leave spaces open in the rotation for actual future players, like Drabek, McGuire etc, rather than random 36 year old, mediocre stop gap journeymen pitchers in order to win a couple of extra games.

The playing time for the prospects will pay dividends down the road, more so than the small amount of success resulting from a journeyman.

JermanJaysFan
03-21-2012, 12:46 PM
We are not at a point where we need to be blocking our abundance of young arms with veteran arms. If by some chance we are in serious contention at mid-season and are a starter away, then maybe you take a flier on a rental or something. But at this point, it's not necessary.

albertajaysfan
03-21-2012, 12:50 PM
I really don't think we are in that much trouble. I get the feeling that this year and over the next off season our rotation will really start to come together.

Sure we have a lot of question marks but fortunately we have more options then holes to fill that have potential.

ah nuts
03-21-2012, 12:52 PM
these 5 can give us a fantastic year. Romero, Morrow, HA, and Mcgowan are real Talent and Cecil will be an above average 5th starter, generally speaking.

The jays' bullpen should be much improved and we should see more offence.

...or if morrow and HA doesn't really improve and Mcgowan blows out, it will be another rebuilding year. Either way, it's very unlikely to see anything worth getting excited about towards adding a SP... not with drebeck, deck, etc. needing MLB playing time/experience.

AA09-?
03-21-2012, 02:39 PM
everyone panic....its MARCH 21 the season is over...

:laugh2:

ILDD
03-21-2012, 02:54 PM
Looks like the rotation is already in trouble.

After Romero and Morrow.

Cecil's velocity is still down.
McGowan hasn't pitched 3 complete innings yet, jsut got shelled by the redsox
Alveraz only has 2 pitches (fastball, changeup, no breaking pitch)

This looks like we're in a whole heap of trouble.

Yup, time to panic.

As we all know, every other team in the AL East - nay, the entire league - has 5 above average, dependable starters.

There's no way that Toronto can win unless AA goes out and trades for Halladay, King Felix and Kershaw.

Remember St Louis last year? The team that won it all? They had Wainwright, Carpenter plus 3 question marks - does that sound familiar?

wagnall
03-21-2012, 02:56 PM
Seems Mcgowan having some problems getting back. Guy seems so fragile, hard to count on as 1 of the 5.
I like what we have to start with, we will put 5 starters out there and see who has it and who needs more work.
Way too early to be making any decisions on getting another pitcher. This may all change as the season progresses, but you got to give some of these guys a chance. Its a new year, who knows what happens? JMHO

AA09-?
03-21-2012, 03:03 PM
Yup, time to panic.

As we all know, every other team in the AL East - nay, the entire league - has 5 above average, dependable starters.

There's no way that Toronto can win unless AA goes out and trades for Halladay, King Felix and Kershaw.

Remember St Louis last year? The team that won it all? They had Wainwright, Carpenter plus 3 question marks - does that sound familiar?

Only one thing wrong with your post. They didn't have Wainwright at all last year.

nithanyo
03-21-2012, 03:25 PM
We are not at a point where we need to be blocking our abundance of young arms with veteran arms. If by some chance we are in serious contention at mid-season and are a starter away, then maybe you take a flier on a rental or something. But at this point, it's not necessary.

Ya cus Mcgowans 30 year old fragile arm and Cecils inability to throw above 88mph arent blocking any of our young arms right?
IMO Cecil and Mcgowan = John Thompson and Tomo Okha

When the time is right we can always find space for young starting pitching. None of the guys in the minors are ready yet. When you dont have starting pitching youre chances of winning are low, especially in the ultra competitive AL east.

A lot of analyst are expecting Romero to regress, while Morrow is a big question mark with his consistency as well. Alvarez was dependable through 10 starts last year but how will he hold up through an entire season.

Wish we got Darvish or at the very least Jackson.

If you compare our rotation to the rays, Yanks and Red Sox we are far behind all of them.
If we were to rank the AL east starters minus the O's:

1)Price, Sabathia, Lester = Romero
2)Shields, Beckett, Kuroda, Morrow
3)Pineda, Helickson, Bukholz, Alvarez
4)Davis,Bard, Nova, Cecil
5)Moore, Hughes, Dice-K, Mcgowan

Screams out 4th place to me

AA09-?
03-21-2012, 03:34 PM
Ya cus Mcgowans 30 year old fragile arm and Cecils inability to throw above 88mph arent blocking any of our young arms right?
IMO Cecil and Mcgowan = John Thompson and Tomo Okha

When the time is right we can always find space for young starting pitching. None of the guys in the minors are ready yet. When you dont have starting pitching youre chances of winning are low, especially in the ultra competitive AL east.

A lot of analyst are expecting Romero to regress, while Morrow is a big question mark with his consistency as well. Alvarez was dependable through 10 starts last year but how will he hold up through an entire season.

Wish we got Darvish or at the very least Jackson.

If you compare our rotation to the rays, Yanks and Red Sox we are far behind all of them.
If we were to rank the AL east starters minus the O's:

1)Price, Sabathia, Lester = Romero
2)Shields, Beckett, Kuroda, Morrow
3)Pineda, Helickson, Bukholz, Alvarez
4)Davis,Bard, Nova, Cecil
5)Moore, Hughes, Dice-K, Mcgowan

Screams out 4th place to me

It's definitely not that cut and dry.

nithanyo
03-21-2012, 04:39 PM
It's definitely not that cut and dry.

well put it this way. i would take any of their pitchers for the same slot in the rotation.

How can people honestly deny the fact that this team has crappy starting pitching at the majorleague level? There are more question marks than answers

AA09-?
03-21-2012, 04:51 PM
You don't think that Boston has question marks with Dice-K and Bard? Pineda might not fare too well in the AL East and could be due for a sophomore slump anyway. As could Nova.

My point is there are lots of questions outside of the Jays rotation as well and I wouldn't go as far as saying "that this team has crappy starting pitching at the majorleague level."

Is it it great? Hell no.

albertajaysfan
03-21-2012, 05:49 PM
You don't think that Boston has question marks with Dice-K and Bard? Pineda might not fare too well in the AL East and could be due for a sophomore slump anyway. As could Nova.

My point is there are lots of questions outside of the Jays rotation as well and I wouldn't go as far as saying "that this team has crappy starting pitching at the majorleague level."

Is it it great? Hell no.

Precisely.

Do I have delusions of contention this year? Only if our starting pitchers surprise us.

My guess though is by the end of the year we will have three solid starters to build around. Meaning we could easily go out and acquire an elite pitcher to throw in the mix while allowing the 5th spot to be left to which ever young prospect claims the job.

Those who are suggesting Jackson would have made us that much more competitive make me laugh. Maybe if we were slotting him in as our #4 starter. But considering the money he was looking for I am glad we passed.

There are too many question marks on this team to start throwing stupid money at free agents. This is the only major Toronto sports team that is building the proper way.

Toronto already has the Raptors and the Leafs as examples on how not to build a team. We don't need the Jays joining them again.

JaysFan87
03-21-2012, 06:04 PM
Ya cus Mcgowans 30 year old fragile arm and Cecils inability to throw above 88mph arent blocking any of our young arms right?
IMO Cecil and Mcgowan = John Thompson and Tomo Okha

When the time is right we can always find space for young starting pitching. None of the guys in the minors are ready yet. When you dont have starting pitching youre chances of winning are low, especially in the ultra competitive AL east.

A lot of analyst are expecting Romero to regress, while Morrow is a big question mark with his consistency as well. Alvarez was dependable through 10 starts last year but how will he hold up through an entire season.

Wish we got Darvish or at the very least Jackson.

If you compare our rotation to the rays, Yanks and Red Sox we are far behind all of them.
If we were to rank the AL east starters minus the O's:

1)Price, Sabathia, Lester = Romero
2)Shields, Beckett, Kuroda, Morrow
3)Pineda, Helickson, Bukholz, Alvarez
4)Davis,Bard, Nova, Cecil
5)Moore, Hughes, Dice-K, Mcgowan

Screams out 4th place to me

At some point this year you could conceivable have McGurie, Jenkins, Hutchison, Drabek all knocking on the door. But of course Kuroda and Jackson would be better plays here because they are going to be around here next year, when you again, are in the same situation of no SP and a bunch of young starters who you have no idea what to expect out of. But of course you just had to go out and sign Jackson and Kuroda because you need to win right now and of course a rotation with Kuroda and Jackson screams WS.

4 of your top 5 pitchers you listed above all came through the farm system of TB and are going to be with them for years up on years at a ridiculous price. That to me screams WS alone. Now put those pitchers who are hopefully coming through the system on toronto with even an 90M payroll that this team can easily support, then you have a contender for a long long time. Patience is needed. This team has made HUGE strides in 2 years with AA that changing the course now would be stupid.

wamco
03-21-2012, 06:07 PM
everyone panic....its MARCH 21 the season is over...

so what percent chance do you give the team of making the playoffs?

wamco
03-21-2012, 06:08 PM
well put it this way. i would take any of their pitchers for the same slot in the rotation.

How can people honestly deny the fact that this team has crappy starting pitching at the majorleague level? There are more question marks than answers

Counting the prospects that will get starts this year, fangraphs put the jays sp at a respectable 19th.

town123
03-21-2012, 06:16 PM
so what percent chance do you give the team of making the playoffs?

Zero. The wildcard should probably come from the west. Not sure if anyone can compete with the Angels starting staff or Texas.

We're going to have to be patient and let the kids fufill their promise.

JaysFan87
03-21-2012, 06:17 PM
well put it this way. i would take any of their pitchers for the same slot in the rotation.

How can people honestly deny the fact that this team has crappy starting pitching at the majorleague level? There are more question marks than answers

And I have issue with you assertion that Davis is something to look forward (wade davis) He has been below average the last 2 years and is an extremely FB pitcher with no K. NAd Jeff Nieman is nothing to right home about. I could almost guarantee you that 2 of Cecil, McGowan,Drabk, McGuire, Jenkins puts up the same level pf production those two guys produce this year.


SO then you have Price and Hellickson who are arguable 2 of teh best young pitchers in the game. If you give any team those 2 pitchers they would instantly become contenders. The problem is that they are not easy to get nor are they readable available in FA or the trade market. So the only way to get them is to develop them yourself and that is what this team is trying to do.

Romero and Shields to me are wash with maybe a little bit of a nudge to shields becasue of his better control although Romero's GB% destroys Shields which is why i think its a bit of a wash.

JaysFan87
03-21-2012, 06:29 PM
so what percent chance do you give the team of making the playoffs?

Not a high one at all. They might squeeze into the 2nd WC spot but I dont know if that is attainable. The objective here now is that you have all the young talent in place at almost every position (RF, SS, 1B,) the exception. While I'm not naive to assume that all of Lawrie, Rasmus, Snider, Thames, Johnson, JPA all are going to pan out I'm hoping as a fan that at least 2/3 of them become good to great regulars in the MLB. The idea that you go into this year expecting to win is ludicrous because for the majority of your regulars you do not have a good body of work to get a good prediction of who they are. Yes they are talented but you dont know what to expect...yet. Of course they can surprise which would be great but it would be foolish to expect that.

Same goes with pitching as you want to get as much out of Alvarez, Drabek, McGowan, Cecil, McGuire, Jenkins, Hutchison. Lots of good young talent but hard to expect success right away.

Krylian
03-21-2012, 09:37 PM
The correct title of this thread should be

'We might very well need starting help but also have the talent to potentially not need any at all'

nithanyo
03-22-2012, 12:58 AM
The correct title of this thread should be

'We might very well need starting help but also have the talent to potentially not need any at all'

You can never have enough pitching. Pitching wins you ballgames

nithanyo
03-22-2012, 01:19 AM
You don't think that Boston has question marks with Dice-K and Bard? Pineda might not fare too well in the AL East and could be due for a sophomore slump anyway. As could Nova.

My point is there are lots of questions outside of the Jays rotation as well and I wouldn't go as far as saying "that this team has crappy starting pitching at the majorleague level."

Is it it great? Hell no.

The different between us and the rest of the AL east power houses is the questionmarks surrounding our rotation. Were basically hoping and praying our prospects turn out to be the real deal. But they are only prospects and failure rate is incredibly high

The yanks, bosox and even rays have concers with their pitching but not as much as us. We have 4 pitchers who are all questionmarks. FFS some people are concerned about Romero regressing.

The red sox have a sturdy rotation. Bard isnt very reliable, and Dice-K is comming off injury but the top three of Lester, Beckett, and Buckholz isnt too shaby.

The yanks are probably more concerned about Sabathias Body fat percentage than the teams rotation. Hell they dont know where to fit Pettitee in right now. AND thats after trading away Burnett

The Rays are so stacked they are considering starting moore in the minors. Moore would be a #2 in our rotation.

I wish Rogers would atleast pretend to care.

wamco
03-22-2012, 07:10 AM
while the jays did come in at a respectable 19th per fangraphs, ny, bost and tb came in at 12 7 3.

http://www.fangraphs.com/blogs/index.php/positional-power-rankings-starting-pitchers-16-30/


I see they ran numbers for the bullpen now as well, with the jays scoring 9th best while tb, bost and ny finished 17, 12, and 1

http://www.fangraphs.com/blogs/index.php/positional-power-rankings-relief-pitchers/#more-79741

Twitchy
03-22-2012, 08:11 AM
And there's no way Boston would be 12th now that Bard isn't going to be in the rotation. Or at least that's where I read here (http://hardballtalk.nbcsports.com/2012/03/21/daniel-bard-could-be-sent-back-to-bullpen-by-red-sox/).

AA09-?
03-22-2012, 09:33 AM
The different between us and the rest of the AL east power houses is the questionmarks surrounding our rotation. Were basically hoping and praying our prospects turn out to be the real deal. But they are only prospects and failure rate is incredibly high

The yanks, bosox and even rays have concers with their pitching but not as much as us. We have 4 pitchers who are all questionmarks. FFS some people are concerned about Romero regressing.

The red sox have a sturdy rotation. Bard isnt very reliable, and Dice-K is comming off injury but the top three of Lester, Beckett, and Buckholz isnt too shaby.

The yanks are probably more concerned about Sabathias Body fat percentage than the teams rotation. Hell they dont know where to fit Pettitee in right now. AND thats after trading away Burnett

The Rays are so stacked they are considering starting moore in the minors. Moore would be a #2 in our rotation.

I wish Rogers would atleast pretend to care.

So basically you just agreed with me re: Boston and think the Yanks rotation is stacked. Ok?

JaysFan87
03-22-2012, 09:35 AM
The different between us and the rest of the AL east power houses is the questionmarks surrounding our rotation. Were basically hoping and praying our prospects turn out to be the real deal. But they are only prospects and failure rate is incredibly high

The yanks, bosox and even rays have concers with their pitching but not as much as us. We have 4 pitchers who are all questionmarks. FFS some people are concerned about Romero regressing.

The red sox have a sturdy rotation. Bard isnt very reliable, and Dice-K is comming off injury but the top three of Lester, Beckett, and Buckholz isnt too shaby.

The yanks are probably more concerned about Sabathias Body fat percentage than the teams rotation. Hell they dont know where to fit Pettitee in right now. AND thats after trading away Burnett

The Rays are so stacked they are considering starting moore in the minors. Moore would be a #2 in our rotation.

I wish Rogers would atleast pretend to care.

Yes thats the idea here. Build a deep high ceiling farm system so that when prospects fail there are other ones that could develop. The Rays rotation was built ENTIRELY on their farm system, the red soxs future rotation is going to depend on what Buckholtz and Lester (both coming from within the system).The yankees are a different situation because of their spending but even they have Novs and Hughes (home grown) and Pineda who was acquired becasue of their farm system. The only reason why the yankees didnt blow their heads of for Wilson is because they have two pitchers they hope are ready for the majors at some point this year or next (Banuelos, Betances). SP is becoming increasingly hard to get through trade and FA. Teams do not want to give up pitcher becasue its so dam fragile. Thats why all teams are now looking to build their SP through the draft. Yes, prospects will fail but that why u need more than just one or two good SP prospects, something the jays have lots of.


As for the Rogers comment.....:facepalm:

AA09-?
03-22-2012, 09:39 AM
Yes thats the idea here. Build a deep high ceiling farm system so that when prospects fail there are other ones that could develop. The Rays rotation was built ENTIRELY on their farm system, the red soxs future rotation is going to depend on what Buckholtz and Lester (both coming from within the system).The yankees are a different situation because of their spending but even they have Novs and Hughes (home grown) and Pineda who was acquired becasue of their farm system. The only reason why the yankees didnt blow their heads of for Wilson is because they have two pitchers they hope are ready for the majors at some point this year or next (Banuelos, Betances). SP is becoming increasingly hard to get through trade and FA. Teams do not want to give up pitcher becasue its so dam fragile. Thats why all teams are now looking to build their SP through the draft. Yes, prospects will fail but that why u need more than just one or two good SP prospects, something the jays have lots of.


As for the Rogers comment.....:facepalm:

Exactly. These comments have been thrown around for months now by "fans" and all it sounds like to me is that mom won't give these "fans" a cookie out of the cookie jar.

nithanyo
03-22-2012, 10:22 AM
Exactly. These comments have been thrown around for months now by "fans" and all it sounds like to me is that mom won't give these "fans" a cookie out of the cookie jar.

Well its been 18 years since we had been to the playoffs and all we've been given is empty promises. Now they are saying go to more ball games and we will spend more. Well as a fan who's been going to ball games religiously i really dont want to watch Mcgowan or Cecil pitch.

Hell ive been going to home openers 7 years in a row not but im going to the third game this year cus thats when Romero gets the ball. no fan wants to pay good money to see their team lose.

wamco
03-22-2012, 10:25 AM
silly fans and their absurd request for meaningful ballgames. Outside of the MLB welfare, Rogers has shown a willingness to drop around 40M a year on mlb payroll. I don't see how that welfare being taken away isn't a really bad break.

JaysFan87
03-22-2012, 10:29 AM
And they are on track to be playing meaningful ball games year in and out. As a fan I can see the progress that is being made here. Others don't i guess.

AA09-?
03-22-2012, 04:51 PM
Well its been 18 years since we had been to the playoffs and all we've been given is empty promises. Now they are saying go to more ball games and we will spend more. Well as a fan who's been going to ball games religiously i really dont want to watch Mcgowan or Cecil pitch.

Hell ive been going to home openers 7 years in a row not but im going to the third game this year cus thats when Romero gets the ball. no fan wants to pay good money to see their team lose.

It's your prerogative to go to what games you'd like. I won't argue that, but it seems as if you can't see the strides that this organization is making without breaking the bank on free agents.

wamco
03-22-2012, 05:44 PM
And they are on track to be playing meaningful ball games year in and out. As a fan I can see the progress that is being made here. Others don't i guess.

literally, word for word, the same thing said a year into JP's regime.

wamco
03-22-2012, 05:47 PM
It's your prerogative to go to what games you'd like. I won't argue that, but it seems as if you can't see the strides that this organization is making without breaking the bank on free agents.

Of course great strides are being made, AA is the man. However, one must not think of it in a vacuum. The big 3 in the division remain awesome franchises. It is going to take massive improvements to pass them. The plan was to do it with the farm and their farms remain strong as well. The new cba negatively affects the jays in terms of the draft and IFA, two areas they made priorities.

StealingSigns
03-22-2012, 06:21 PM
Of course great strides are being made, AA is the man. However, one must not think of it in a vacuum. The big 3 in the division remain awesome franchises.

No argument there.


It is going to take massive improvements to pass them. The plan was to do it with the farm and their farms remain strong as well.

Sickels ranked the farm systems earlier this winter, and this was after Nestor Molina was dealt:



1) Toronto Blue Jays: Eight B+ prospects with ridiculous depth behind them.
2) San Diego Padres: Incredible depth after the winter trades pushes this system almost to the top.
3) Texas Rangers: Continues to churn out talent, with much more percolating at the lower levels. I do not give the Rangers farm system credit for Yu Darvish. They would rank number one if I gave them credit for Darvish, but in my mind that is unfair to the other teams: I see him as a major league free agent, not a prospect.
4) Seattle Mariners: Jesus Montero plus three elite pitching prospects and others who can improve.
5) St. Louis Cardinals: They don't get talked about as much as other teams, but they have a Grade A prospect in Shelby Miller and a lot of pitching depth behind him. I think this system is underrated.
6) Kansas City Royals: They slipped from last year's top spot, showing the volatility of pitching prospects, but heavy investments in draft and foreign players should continue to show dividends.
7) Tampa Bay Rays: Impact depth behind Matt Moore has slipped but this is still a robust organization.
8) Atlanta Braves: Lots of pitching at the top, but they need more hitters.
9) Arizona Diamondbacks: Another system with lots of pitching but not much hitting, even more extreme than Atlanta.
10) Oakland Athletics: Trades helped this system a lot, would have ranked much lower otherwise.
11) Boston Red Sox: Large group of B- types who can improve. Hitting stronger than pitching at this point.
12) Pittsburgh Pirates: Heavy draft investments slowly-but-steadily raising the talent level in this system.
13) Colorado Rockies: Middle of the pack at this stage, two definite impact talents and a large group of C+ types who can improve.
14) Washington Nationals: The big trade with Oakland tore the top off this farm system. You still have Bryce Harper and some interesting players in the B- range. Would have ranked much higher without the trade.
15) New York Mets: Solid depth in pitching, especially at the top with Matt Harvey, Zack Wheeler, and Jeurys Familia.
16) New York Yankees: You can make a case to rank them as high as 12 or 13. Manny Banuelos and Dellin Betances are strong Grade B prospects for me and there is a nice balance between hitting and pitching.
17) Minnesota Twins: Another middle of the pack organization, fairly balanced between hitting and pitching, some potential regulars with several solid role players.
18) Los Angeles Angels: Not terrible, there is some depth behind Mike Trout but a lot of questions, too, and most of the tool-heavy bets in recent drafts haven't paid off as well as Trout has.
19) Baltimore Orioles: You have Machado and Bundy at the top but it falls off quickly after that.
20) Chicago Cubs: Another middle-of-the-pack system with a lot of B-/C+ type prospects. Could rank much higher next year if some of the lower-level guys pan out.
21) Cincinnati Reds: Heart of this system torn out by Mat Latos trade but there is enough at the lower levels that I think they can recharge quickly.
22) Los Angeles Dodgers: Some intriguing pitching depth, much of it fairly close to the majors, but not much hitting.
23) Detroit Tigers: Thins out very quickly after Jacob Turner and Nick Castellanos.
24) Philadelphia Phillies: There is some interesting pitching but tools guys not developing as hoped.
25) Houston Astros: Gradually improving, and there are several players at the lower levels with a chance to develop. Could rank much higher a year from now.
26) San Francisco Giants: This system has thinned out but is not hopeless. Pitching needs a recharge.
27) Cleveland Indians: Of all the teams ranked low, the Indians have the greatest chance to improve in the coming years. There is a lot of talent at the lower levels, but most of it is in the C+ or "Grade C with higher potential" category right now because it is so far away. It would not surprise me to see the Indians in the Top 10 by 2014.
28) Milwaukee Brewers: There is some talent on the pitching side but hitting looks thin.
29) Miami Marlins: Relatively even balance between hitting and pitching, but not a lot of impact coming up.
30) Chicago White Sox: You have two B+ pitching prospects in Addison Reed and Nestor Molina and some other raw materials for a decent bullpen. Hitting is a disaster. I like Tyler Saladino but I have huge doubts about their other hitting prospects.

http://www.minorleagueball.com/2012/1/23/2728027/2012-baseball-farm-system-rankings-prospects

The Jays are head and shoulders above the other AL East farm systems.


The new cba negatively affects the jays in terms of the draft and IFA, two areas they made priorities.

While that may be true, the new CBA has had an adverse effect on New York and Boston as well. You didn't see them busting out the wallet this offseason on FA's like they have in years past, did you? All I hear from Yankees fans these days is how in the next season or two, payroll is going to be going down...

JaysFan87
03-22-2012, 06:36 PM
Of course great strides are being made, AA is the man. However, one must not think of it in a vacuum. The big 3 in the division remain awesome franchises. It is going to take massive improvements to pass them. The plan was to do it with the farm and their farms remain strong as well. The new cba negatively affects the jays in terms of the draft and IFA, two areas they made priorities.

Drafting well doesn't mean just to take players and hope for the best. Good drafting requires a commitment throughout the organization. It means hiring good scouts and talent evaluators. It means have the best talent evaluators in your organization. Thats what the blue jays have and what was missing in the JP regime. He did manage to produce through the draft but he never really drafted the high ceiling talent that have a better chance to become great. New cba or old cba you still need the best team of scouts to give you a chance in the draft.

wamco
03-22-2012, 07:51 PM
agreed. Even though JP was a tool, baseball america gave his drafts a score of above average fwiw. Sickels also said he really doesn't believe in ranking the farms that much. Boston gave up a few of their top prospects for Gonzo. Look at the wording next to the other big 3. It's not like the other 3 are bottom tier, they are what I said, Strong. Not like any of it is guaranteed anyhow. The 30th might end up outproducing number one. Hell, our franchise was supposed to be turned around by Wallace, Snider and Drabeck, 3 former can't miss guys. Certainly awesome to see the system ranked that highly though, gives plenty of opportunity to make moves, although I think AA is finding trading to be not as simple as it seemed. (quantity wise over quality wise, guy is a shark)

2009mvp
03-23-2012, 02:51 AM
No argument there.



Sickels ranked the farm systems earlier this winter, and this was after Nestor Molina was dealt:



http://www.minorleagueball.com/2012/1/23/2728027/2012-baseball-farm-system-rankings-prospects

The Jays are head and shoulders above the other AL East farm systems.



While that may be true, the new CBA has had an adverse effect on New York and Boston as well. You didn't see them busting out the wallet this offseason on FA's like they have in years past, did you? All I hear from Yankees fans these days is how in the next season or two, payroll is going to be going down...

To Sickels, perhaps. Worth noting KLaw actually has the Rays ahead of the Jays at #2 and 3 respectively, with the Yanks rounding out his top 10.

StealingSigns
03-23-2012, 03:07 AM
To Sickels, perhaps. Worth noting KLaw actually has the Rays ahead of the Jays at #2 and 3 respectively, with the Yanks rounding out his top 10.

Thanks for providing a link...

wamco
03-23-2012, 06:59 AM
www.internet.com

2009mvp
03-23-2012, 11:16 AM
^^That works. Not like I'm referring to some obscure *** article and/or have a history of making **** up.

1hardcore
03-23-2012, 12:15 PM
All i can say is precedence....

Dana Eveland and Jo Jo Reyes etc.

StealingSigns
03-23-2012, 01:09 PM
www.internet.com

Funny. My nine year old laughed.


^^That works. Not like I'm referring to some obscure *** article and/or have a history of making **** up.

Never said you did. I just get tired of people making an argument without providing a link.

From what I can discern, Law has the AL East in this order:

2. Tamp Bay
3. Toronto
10. New York
17. Baltimore
18. Boston

So, aside from the Rays, the other AL East teams aren't really close.

bartron_44
03-23-2012, 01:53 PM
In regards to the topic of the thread....
I really don't see us needing more pitching...we just need to figure out who the best 5 arms that we have are....and to let them pitch. We have Drabek,McGuire,Hutchison and Jenkins just waiting for a shot behind the 5 guys penciled in right now to start the season.....not to mention L.Perez and C.Villaneva who can also make spot starts if needed.


The Jays seem set on giving McGowan a true shot after rehabbing for 3 years. And with the type of pure "stuff" that he has listening to player comments in the spring, I can't really say that I blame them. However, the only question is how long of a leash does he have this year. If we come out of the gate smoking like some of the recent years , but he posts an ERA over 5.00 over the first 2 months..are we going to let him keep bringing us down? Or do we call up one of the guys in the minors to see if they can help us?

We are also convinced Cecil will be great because he has gotten in shape and lost weight...I am not really ready to give him instant credit for doing something that should have never been necessary in the first place. If he actually gave a sweet flying f%*k about his body ,(as any pro athlete should) how on earth did he have 40 lbs to lose in the first place? This speaks more to how slack he was in 2011 when he SUCKED more than anything..Instead of building up arm speed and strength to increase his velocity, he has been spending all his time trying to lose weight..Since he still has options, I wouldn't mind seeing him start the season in AAA if guys like Drabek and McGuire look ready to win games. I know Cecil has had a great spring so far, but 10 innings in the spring is not much of a sample to go on..

If they think McGowan and Cecil are among our 5 best to start the season then I will trust their judgement, but we better not see someone with an ERA over 5.00 make 20 starts like last year. As much as I want both of those guys to succeed, they don't really concern me too much in the long run. Mcgowan is already 30 years old, and Cecil doesn't have the kind of stuff Nicolino,Norris,Syndergaard,Sanchez,Musgrove,Comer and probably about half dozen or so others in our system have.

Imo, if McGowan can't dominate we need to see if he can clear waivers and go to the minor leagues. I would be apt to do this before he shows too much and teams are more are more likely to take a chance on him.. Cecil should be turned into a loogy where he could be exceptional, and we should let one of the younger guys get the innings to let them develop for next year. If Drabek is throwing strikes, he should be in our rotation. We are going to have so many pitchers in 2 years, we need to start evaluating the guys we can now.

2009mvp
03-23-2012, 02:05 PM
Funny. My nine year old laughed.



Never said you did. I just get tired of people making an argument without providing a link.

From what I can discern, Law has the AL East in this order:

2. Tamp Bay
3. Toronto
10. New York
17. Baltimore
18. Boston

So, aside from the Rays, the other AL East teams aren't really close.

7 spots is hardly 'head and shoulders' above in my mind, but I suppose that's totally subjective. As far as a link, it's all under the Insider wall anyways, so unless you'd like me to skirt PSD rules and copy and paste it'd be useless for the large majority on here.

StealingSigns
03-23-2012, 02:48 PM
7 spots is hardly 'head and shoulders' above in my mind, but I suppose that's totally subjective. As far as a link, it's all under the Insider wall anyways, so unless you'd like me to skirt PSD rules and copy and paste it'd be useless for the large majority on here.

Fair enough. You could have stated that. I found my info re. the list outside of ESPN (finally) I thought you may have had a similar article.