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JermanJaysFan
03-20-2012, 01:13 PM
Series of tweets by GSJays (https://twitter.com/?tw_e=screenname&tw_i=181951011148148736&tw_p=tweetembed#!/GSJays) regurgitating some comments by Matt Stairs on XM Radio about Cito's mistreatment of Snider:


Matt Stairs loves Travis Snider.In his XM broadcast Stairs said Snider has the most power he's ever seen to opposite field.(cont)

Stairs said Cito hated Snider and treated him horribly..Snider had to look over his shoulder and watch his back. no one protected him.

Stairs claim the Jays need to stop lying to Snider, put him in left field and give him the 550 at bats they promised 3-4 times or trade him

Thoughts? He seems to have an inside look on an interaction that us fans have only been able to speculate on. Hopefully the Jays brass can just turn him loose this year and see what he can do.

BlueJayFanDan
03-20-2012, 01:17 PM
I feel like Snider has been treated poorly a lot, but honestly, he never proved he deserved to be our number 3 or 4 hitter. Until he can consistently show it, he doesn't deserve that spot. This is the year for him in my opinion. Either he takes the leap we all want and expected him to take long ago, or he shows he doesn't belong and ends up getting traded after the season.

JaysFan87
03-20-2012, 01:29 PM
^^^who said anything about the 3/4 spot in the lineup?

2009mvp
03-20-2012, 01:33 PM
No **** he hasn't proved he's a 3/4 hitter. That being said, he certainly had proven more than Thames when he was tossed into the cushy #2 spot ahead of Bautista.

As far as Stairs' take, there's a guy that knows a thing or two about being jerked around early in his career. I don't see why it's not as simple as tossing him in that role and sticking with him until there's enough of a sample size to make a decision either way.

bljay29
03-20-2012, 01:52 PM
put him in the 6/7/8th spot in the order and tell him its his spot for the whole year and see what happens

JermanJaysFan
03-20-2012, 02:00 PM
No **** he hasn't proved he's a 3/4 hitter. That being said, he certainly had proven more than Thames when he was tossed into the cushy #2 spot ahead of Bautista.

As far as Stairs' take, there's a guy that knows a thing or two about being jerked around early in his career. I don't see why it's not as simple as tossing him in that role and sticking with him until there's enough of a sample size to make a decision either way.
Yeah, and not only that, but he had an inside look at Cito's interactions with Snider. "Hate" is a strong word, and according to these tweets, he used it.

The_Jet11
03-20-2012, 02:04 PM
I completely agree with Stairs.

Good teams develop their young players by letting them play through struggles.

Atlanta has made more playoff appearances in the past 20 years than we have, and they gave Jason Heyward a chance to play despite struggles. He hit .227 in close to 400 ABs last year. Both players have dealt with minor injuries last season, yet Heyward played all of 2 games in AAA last year, on a rehab stint. They gave him the keys, and it WILL pay off.

Alex Gordon required almost 1500 Major-League ABs before he finally broke out. He was given the keys to LF, and it payed off for the Royals last season.

Snider is the same type of prospect. Give him a legitimate FULL SEASON in the bigs. Clearly Alex doesn't figure that were one player away this season, so why not spend the majority of the year making sure you give guys like Rasmus, Snider, and Lawrie every opportunity to prove that their high praise as prospects is justified, and that they are now truly impactful big-leaguers. They can all be huge assets in taking the next step. Perhaps Snider IS the piece that puts us one (more) piece away. give him 500ABs, and I would expect close to 20 HRs, a .250 avg, 15 SBs, 70 Runs and solid defense in LF. That would be pretty good production from a guy who will presumably get most of his at-bats out of the 7,8,9 spots in the order.

Quit giving the kid the toilet seat treatment, up-and-down, and let him play. everyday. with the Blue Jays.

bomber0104
03-20-2012, 02:35 PM
that is some great insight by Stairs...

Most of us could tell that without being in the clubhouse.. the guy hasn't been given a fair opportunity and i'm afraid he never will here

masTOR_shake1
03-20-2012, 02:45 PM
thank you stairs. I totally agree, it just seems hypocritical to rely on all of these other "question mark guys" like johnson, lind, rasmus, morrow, cecil, mcgowan (heck even santos, lawire and alverez are new at their jobs) and not give someone with the upside of snider every opportunity in the world to play everyday at the major league level. there is nothing more to be learned in the pacific coast league for him and it is a real shame how he is being treated.

wagnall
03-20-2012, 02:58 PM
I think AA was clear that Snider had to out right take LF. To get this all settled, just put him out there, see what he does until mid July [ 2 weeks before TD], then start deciding what your going to do. Thames will still be around. Hit him to start anywhere from 6 to 9, still will get probably about 450 ab's, if he ain't got it by then. plenty of time to look at alternatives.
If he gives us what we've all been waiting for, then TD will come and go and he'll be our LF'er !

Farsight
03-20-2012, 03:30 PM
Usually to get a good opinion on a player, he needs around 1000 AB's (close to 1 2/3 of a year). However, in Snider case, im not sure if it applies. Im not really sure if we should consider this a "fresh start" and see how he does, or just to continue with his evaluation from before. However, that being said, i think if Snider is given a full year, he can put a stat line of 270/340/460.

DeRozan10
03-20-2012, 03:32 PM
He wouldnt have been jerked around if he just produced a little bit over the past 4 seasons

Canadian hemi
03-20-2012, 03:41 PM
I see what he is saying, BUT I like to beleive that if he had produced when he was playing then this wouldn't be such a hot topic! Simple fact is that he hasn't produced, and in a results oriented business it's tough to get the "benefit of the doubt"

I see nothing wrong with "prove to me that you can earn it" as apposed to "just giving it to him"

2009mvp
03-20-2012, 03:43 PM
How many 24 year olds have ~900 .730 OPS big league at bats under their belts??? Let's not act like he's been a Brandon Wood-esque failure or something. The talent's obviously there, the results have been there in spurts, it's up to the organization to give him the playing time to adjust rather than giving him the boot at the first sign of him struggling.

jbkbluejayfan
03-20-2012, 03:44 PM
I still don't understand why the Jays can't bring up both Snider and Thames. By cutting Fransisco there should be enough bats for both of them. Assuming 6.5 games a week:

1St Base - Lind 5.5 games, Encarnacion 1 game
3rd Base - Lawrie 6.0 games, Emcarnacion .5 game
DH - Encarnacion 3.5 games, Thames 2.0 games, and Snider 1 game
RF - Bautista 6.0 games, Davis 0.5 games
LF - Snider 4.0 games, Thames 2.5 games
CF - Razmus 5.5 games, Davis 1.0 game

Using 25 weeks and 4 PA's per game

Bautista - 600 PA
Lawrie - 600 PA
Razmus - 550 PA
Lind - 550 PA
Encarnacion - 500 PA
Snider - 500 PA
Thames - 450 PA
Davis - 150 PA

I believe that Sniders trade value is low enough right now, and us not expecting to contend, this is a gamble to take and see what he can do for a whole year. Both Thames and Snider, I believe would benefit more developmentally with staying in the majors all year then playing in Las Vegas. They could also increase their PA's if someone else is injured (same with Davis). If at the end of the year he sucks, we cut bait and let him walk. At least we have a better idea of what we could be losing, versus the marginal prospect we might gain if he spends the whole year tearing up Pacific Coast (batting practice) league.

JermanJaysFan
03-20-2012, 03:46 PM
He wouldnt have been jerked around if he just produced a little bit over the past 4 seasons
He has. He ****ing has. What don't people get? He was **** last season. He was just as good as you can expect a 20-22 year-old to be in the parts of three seasons before that; at least, he wasn't bad enough to be given up on. The guy posted a .764 OPS over three seasons of confidence hell at the hands of Cito when age-wise he should have been in AA or lower. He was better in those years than the 24-year-old Thames was in 2011, and Thames has supposedly "proven something".

wagnall
03-20-2012, 03:59 PM
I'm trying to see the down side of putting Snider out there till just before the TD. If he is the real deal, he keeps it, if he can't cut it then he gets delt, but at least he gets his 400 to 450 ABs to make it happen, without fear that his first slip up isn't going to get him sent down. Has only 1 option left, so you send him back to AAA during the season cause he just is off, then next time he has to clear waivers, which he won't. Lets see what he has. Someone has to go.
Guys like Gose and Marsnick are knocking at the door.

DeRozan10
03-20-2012, 04:01 PM
Thames is gonna be the starting LF

Travis Snider will be in AAA

There is a reason for this. I believe all of the Jays organization (AA, Farrell, etc, etc, etc) knows what they are doing much better than any of us.

JermanJaysFan
03-20-2012, 04:08 PM
Thames is gonna be the starting LF

Travis Snider will be in AAA

There is a reason for this.I believe all of the Jays organization (AA, Farrell, etc, etc, etc) knows what they are doing much better than any of us.
You're right, they do know better than us. But, there are two clear divisions of opinion in the fan base- the one you just expressed, and the one that says Snider deserves a fair chance in the bigs this season. Which segment of the fan base is AA and co. going to prove they know more than? It can't be both.

wamco
03-20-2012, 04:34 PM
enough excuses for snider. We need him to break out big time.

Twitchy
03-20-2012, 04:35 PM
Between 2008 and 2010 Snider had a 764 OPS over 675 PA.
During 2011 Thames had a 769 OPS over 392 PA.

Can we cut the crap of Snider not having produced as well as Thames? And Snider did all this while playing every other day and batting mostly out of the 7-8-9 spots, unlike Thames who basically got the greatest spot in the world batting in front of Bautista.

Snider had a lousy 2011, but let's not pretend that he wasn't every good as Thames before that. And when you factor in age/defence, it's not even close that Snider has had more success.

Stairs comment is pretty bang on. Start him in the 6/7 spot and just play him every day no matter how good or bad he is.

Farsight
03-20-2012, 04:47 PM
Between 2008 and 2010 Snider had a 764 OPS over 675 PA.
During 2011 Thames had a 769 OPS over 392 PA.

Can we cut the crap of Snider not having produced as well as Thames? And Snider did all this while playing every other day and batting mostly out of the 7-8-9 spots, unlike Thames who basically got the greatest spot in the world batting in front of Bautista.

Snider had a lousy 2011, but let's not pretend that he wasn't every good as Thames before that. And when you factor in age/defence, it's not even close that Snider has had more success.

Stairs comment is pretty bang on. Start him in the 6/7 spot and just play him every day no matter how good or bad he is. Completely agree, and once you add Sniders defense, its not a question that Snider should play in LF

Towelie
03-20-2012, 04:56 PM
He's been mistreated but at the exact same time he's done nothing when given the chances. If he even played even close to AAA stats he would already be a lock to play everyday.

jbkbluejayfan
03-20-2012, 04:57 PM
Completely agree, and once you add Sniders defense, its not a question that Snider should play in LF

Why can't they both stay up and play, splitting time with DH and injuries we will have better idea with what we have with both by the end of the year.

DeRozan10
03-20-2012, 04:57 PM
Between 2008 and 2010 Snider had a 764 OPS over 675 PA.
During 2011 Thames had a 769 OPS over 392 PA.

Can we cut the crap of Snider not having produced as well as Thames? And Snider did all this while playing every other day and batting mostly out of the 7-8-9 spots, unlike Thames who basically got the greatest spot in the world batting in front of Bautista.

Snider had a lousy 2011, but let's not pretend that he wasn't every good as Thames before that. And when you factor in age/defence, it's not even close that Snider has had more success.

Stairs comment is pretty bang on. Start him in the 6/7 spot and just play him every day no matter how good or bad he is.


Were not a building team right now.

Leaving him in even if he is batting below around or below 200 is rediculous. This team wants to win. Thats the goal right now. Win ball games. And AA and his crew obviously think that having Thames in LF is gonna help the team win more games.

DeRozan10
03-20-2012, 04:59 PM
Why can't they both stay up and play, splitting time with DH and injuries we will have better idea with what we have with both by the end of the year.

Because the Blue Jays want to win ball games this year.

Weather we agree or not, the organization believes that having EE at DH and Thames in LF is help then win more games than having Snider at either spot

Farsight
03-20-2012, 05:17 PM
If they both produce their career numbers this coming season, than they would have a better chance of winning with Snider in left field as he is that much better defensively than Thames, so you're point is inaccurate. Offensively Snider has posted similar numbers as Thames in multiple years , due to the inability of our organization to give him playing time. And he posted those numbers at a much younger age. If given 600 AB this season it would not surprise me to see him outproduce Thanes offensively and be significantly better defensively

Twitchy
03-20-2012, 05:33 PM
He's been mistreated but at the exact same time he's done nothing when given the chances.

Really? In 2010 when he had a 105 OPS, and earned 1.2 WAR in 298 AB (prorated over 550 = 2.2 WAR) he did nothing? Sure you want to argue that? That's a league average player as a 22 year old.


If he even played even close to AAA stats he would already be a lock to play everyday.

Or if the Jays showed some confidence in him, and actually let him bat everyday in the majors, he would have had that chance.


Were not a building team right now.

Actually, that's exactly what we are, because the Jays sure as hell aren't a playoff team. And even if they weren't, Snider still gives them a better chance of winning.


Leaving him in even if he is batting below around or below 200 is rediculous.

It's called showing faith in young players. Something Snider has never had, given that every time he's struggled the Jays have demoted him rather than let him play through it.

You may disagree with what I'm saying, but let's take a look at Dustin Pedroia. In 2007, his first full season, he was hitting under 200 for the first month of the season. If that was Snider, you'd bet your *** he'd get demoted.

Yet the Red Sox, a team that intended to make the playoffs, kept Pedroia in. Despite him hitting 182 the first month of the season. You may recall what happened. But in case you don't, I'll remind you. From May 1st through the end of the year, Pedroia hit 333/389/467. Oh, and the Red Sox won the World Series, in no small part to Pedroia who dominated the ALCS and was solid once again in the World Series.

The moral of the story being, that you don't give up on talented players simply because they have a bad month. The Red Sox made a smart play to leave Pedroia out there despite hitting under 200, and were rewarded with a player who became their catalyst, their best player, and a future MVP.

I'm not saying Snider will achieve any of those things, but the Jays mismanagement of Snider is a major reason why he's struggled in his limited times. So you better believe I'm serious when I say that the Jays need to give Snider 550 at bats, regardless of whether he's hitting 200 or 310.

Because that is what a good organization would do with a potentially dynamic player in a year they're not going to make the playoffs.

Really, what difference does it make if the Jays win 82 or 85 games this year? Might make you feel better, prouder as a fan. But at the end of the day, it's fairly meaningless. The development of key guys is what this season is about, like it or not.


This team wants to win. Thats the goal right now. Win ball games. And AA and his crew obviously think that having Thames in LF is gonna help the team win more games.

They can think that all they want. Just like I think that later today I'm gonna have a threesome with Minka Kelly and Kate Upton. Thinking it doesn't mean it's going to happen.

Bombtista
03-20-2012, 05:38 PM
Between 2008 and 2010 Snider had a 764 OPS over 675 PA.
During 2011 Thames had a 769 OPS over 392 PA.

Can we cut the crap of Snider not having produced as well as Thames? And Snider did all this while playing every other day and batting mostly out of the 7-8-9 spots, unlike Thames who basically got the greatest spot in the world batting in front of Bautista.

Snider had a lousy 2011, but let's not pretend that he wasn't every good as Thames before that. And when you factor in age/defence, it's not even close that Snider has had more success.

Stairs comment is pretty bang on. Start him in the 6/7 spot and just play him every day no matter how good or bad he is.

This x 100. I don't know why it hasn't really even been considered to put Snider in the two hole to help him out especially when hes struggling but Thames gets to play there most days.

If both players put up the same OPS with one having the best hitting spot in baseball you have to imagine Snider could have put up better numbers than he did if he hit there.

No excuses for Snider though, he played poorly last year and needs to prove he can play before anything else

JermanJaysFan
03-20-2012, 05:55 PM
Really, what difference does it make if the Jays win 82 or 85 games this year? Might make you feel better, prouder as a fan. But at the end of the day, it's fairly meaningless. The development of key guys is what this season is about, like it or not.
The funny thing about all these people complaining against Snider is that this point shouldn't even be have to made. Playing Snider in LF over Thames is demonstrably the smarter choice, both from a win-now and a develop-high-upside-talent standpoint.

bomber0104
03-20-2012, 06:05 PM
Were not a building team right now.

Leaving him in even if he is batting below around or below 200 is rediculous. This team wants to win. Thats the goal right now. Win ball games. And AA and his crew obviously think that having Thames in LF is gonna help the team win more games.

The problem is Thames hasn't shown that he will give us a better chance of winning. When you consider they are almost equal offensively and Snider is clearly a far superior defender, this becomes an obvious choice..

Not to mention Snider's pedigree and the fact that this is his last option year

Krylian
03-20-2012, 06:40 PM
Thames is gonna be the starting LF

Travis Snider will be in AAA

There is a reason for this. I believe all of the Jays organization (AA, Farrell, etc, etc, etc) knows what they are doing much better than any of us.

It's clear you're not a fan of Snider...and you probably want him gone...and his time may very well be coming to an end here....but I hope that when Snider does break out somewhere else you'll man up and admit you were wrong.

Snider will have a much better pro career than Thames.


Matt Stairs knows better than you.

idrinkpepsi
03-20-2012, 07:17 PM
I really hope they give Snider a chance.

VRP723
03-20-2012, 07:27 PM
I was at the forum main page and saw this thread as "Matt Stairs: Stop Jerking..."

I had no idea what it could say but I gotta admit this is a let down.

riderfan60
03-20-2012, 07:58 PM
Between 2008 and 2010 Snider had a 764 OPS over 675 PA.
During 2011 Thames had a 769 OPS over 392 PA.

Can we cut the crap of Snider not having produced as well as Thames? And Snider did all this while playing every other day and batting mostly out of the 7-8-9 spots, unlike Thames who basically got the greatest spot in the world batting in front of Bautista.

Snider had a lousy 2011, but let's not pretend that he wasn't every good as Thames before that. And when you factor in age/defence, it's not even close that Snider has had more success.

Stairs comment is pretty bang on. Start him in the 6/7 spot and just play him every day no matter how good or bad he is.

I'm not sure how many more ways you need to explain it, but building a team is exactly what we're doing, and it's being done the right way. Your responses clearly articulate the position that makes the most sense, let's hope the Jays brass see it the same way.

Sanyo
03-20-2012, 08:15 PM
Don't you think maybe Snider wants out of Toronto deep inside? Im sure he's tried of the games himself and maybe deep down inside he's praying he doesnt make the team so he can go to someone who'll appreciate him more...

LechWalesa
03-20-2012, 08:58 PM
yes... Snider isn't trying to make the team... that's why he's producing >1.000 OPS in Spring Training.

DeRozan10
03-20-2012, 09:27 PM
The funny thing about all these people complaining against Snider is that this point shouldn't even be have to made. Playing Snider in LF over Thames is demonstrably the smarter choice, both from a win-now and a develop-high-upside-talent standpoint.

See how do you figure that your opinion is right here.

I gurantee that guys that have dedicated their entire lives to baseball, spend all day every day in baseball, and have been around both of these guys everyday and seen and tracked both of them for a couple years now would know much better. And what they have decided is that Thames should be the LF.

Sanyo
03-20-2012, 09:32 PM
yes... Snider isn't trying to make the team... that's why he's producing >1.000 OPS in Spring Training.

what i meant was even with what he's producing he hopes he wont make the team and gets traded when the season starts -- obviously if he throws away the games, he wont make it anywhere...

DeRozan10
03-20-2012, 09:32 PM
It's clear you're not a fan of Snider...and you probably want him gone...and his time may very well be coming to an end here....but I hope that when Snider does break out somewhere else you'll man up and admit you were wrong.

Snider will have a much better pro career than Thames.


Matt Stairs knows better than you.

I respect your opinion mate.

But the fact is I like Snider. And I want him to have a fantastic career. I honestly dont have a ton of faith in him but I do really like the guy.

But the fact is none of us are around these guys everyday. None of us have been scouting these guys and tracking everything they have done over the years.

The people that have done this and do see these guys every single day have decided that Thames is the better option in Left Field.

I don't want Snider gone. I want him to have his chance, I really do. But I think Thames is gonna have a great season. I think Thames has a very very high upside bat.

In my perfect world they would both be here, especially over EE, but again im not around these guys. I just read about them and watch them on TV.

I trust AA and his staff 1000%

DeRozan10
03-20-2012, 09:35 PM
It's clear you're not a fan of Snider...and you probably want him gone...and his time may very well be coming to an end here....but I hope that when Snider does break out somewhere else you'll man up and admit you were wrong.

Snider will have a much better pro career than Thames.


Matt Stairs knows better than you.


The Matt Stairs knows better than me comment just completely proves my point

AA and his staff know better than all of us, and there are reasons Thames is the man, and Snider will be in AAA.

So Thank you for proving my point.

DeRozan10
03-20-2012, 09:36 PM
I do think that people are not giving Thames a fair shake though.

I think he can have a great season with the bat.

LechWalesa
03-20-2012, 09:43 PM
The Matt Stairs knows better than me comment just completely proves my point

AA and his staff know better than all of us, and there are reasons Thames is the man, and Snider will be in AAA.

So Thank you for proving my point.

This isn't really an argument. Look, if you want to say that you like Thames better than Snider and that the organization probably agrees with you, that's fine. However, to suggest that the organization is foolproof is laughable.


what i meant was even with what he's producing he hopes he wont make the team and gets traded when the season starts -- obviously if he throws away the games, he wont make it anywhere...

What if Travis Snider hates puppies?! I swear the look in his eye when he's at the plate sends that message loud and clear.

JMac4PM
03-20-2012, 10:14 PM
I dont see anything wrong with putting Snider in AAA. If we keep him down in AAA all year for him to have a great year than maybe it'll give him the confidence he needs to excel at the MLB level.

Let him rip up Vegas and bring him up in Sept. Build up Thames' value so we can trade him for a good asset and let Snider build some confidence.

JermanJaysFan
03-20-2012, 10:28 PM
See how do you figure that your opinion is right here.

I gurantee that guys that have dedicated their entire lives to baseball, spend all day every day in baseball, and have been around both of these guys everyday and seen and tracked both of them for a couple years now would know much better. And what they have decided is that Thames should be the LF.


I respect your opinion mate.

But the fact is I like Snider. And I want him to have a fantastic career. I honestly dont have a ton of faith in him but I do really like the guy.

But the fact is none of us are around these guys everyday. None of us have been scouting these guys and tracking everything they have done over the years.

The people that have done this and do see these guys every single day have decided that Thames is the better option in Left Field.

I don't want Snider gone. I want him to have his chance, I really do. But I think Thames is gonna have a great season. I think Thames has a very very high upside bat.

In my perfect world they would both be here, especially over EE, but again im not around these guys. I just read about them and watch them on TV.

I trust AA and his staff 1000%
See, in general I subscribe to this belief too. If AA and co. do something I deem questionable, I assume they must have some piece of information that I don't have, some angle of insight not availble to me- and not that they are acting irrationally.

But you are speaking as if the Jays have made a final decision on their LFer already, and they clearly haven't, so I can't at this point consider my opinion to be in contradiction to that of the Jays' brass. If the season starts and they name Thames their starter (barring something unforeseen happening to Snider), then I will start to question their judgement and/or wonder what they might have seen that I didn't.

But operating from the information that we have (which has become much more extensive in recent years), giving Snider the shot is the right move.

JermanJaysFan
03-20-2012, 10:29 PM
I dont see anything wrong with putting Snider in AAA. If we keep him down in AAA all year for him to have a great year than maybe it'll give him the confidence he needs to excel at the MLB level.

Let him rip up Vegas and bring him up in Sept. Build up Thames' value so we can trade him for a good asset and let Snider build some confidence.
Snider has absolutely NOTHING left to prove in AAA. He has done all the ripping and confidence building that a guy can do there. All he needs now is to see that his organization has confidence in him.

2009mvp
03-20-2012, 10:55 PM
I dont see anything wrong with putting Snider in AAA. If we keep him down in AAA all year for him to have a great year than maybe it'll give him the confidence he needs to excel at the MLB level.

Let him rip up Vegas and bring him up in Sept. Build up Thames' value so we can trade him for a good asset and let Snider build some confidence.

Been there, done that. In that scenario 12 months from now the team is in the exact same situation they're in right now with Snider, except the rest of the team (hopefully) is ready to compete. Him raking in Vegas again helps no one.

The_Jet11
03-21-2012, 12:38 AM
we're all debating Snider vs. Thames. We should be discussing why Francisco is being handed a spot, and Snider and Thames are fighting each other (and putting on quite a show!) for another spot. If you want to win games, you carry both.

In part, I always figured that the acquisition of Francisco (a winning player with a decent track record, playoff experience, and a solid reputation for his defense) was to find a way to increase the value of all three players. If they're all seen as ML caliber players, and Thames and Snider are duke'n it out, perhaps it'll allow AA to deal Francisco at the end of spring training, and give BOTH players a vote of confidence. "you earned it boys, now keep crushing that baseball".

We didn't give up much for Francisco, so losing him for next to nothing shouldn't bother too many of us, provided both Snider and Thames are getting ABs with the Jays.

As much as we'd like to believe the Jays are in a complete WIN-NOW mode, they do need to figure out who their future assets are going to be.

Besides, if you carry both guys, you aren't using an option on either!

2009mvp
03-21-2012, 01:19 AM
^^You're assuming that Francisco makes the team. I personally still think they carry Mathis, Davis, Vizquel and one of McCoy/Valbuena, which leaves one of Snider/Thames and Francisco on the outside looking in either way.

BBB
03-21-2012, 01:45 AM
we're all debating Snider vs. Thames. We should be discussing why Francisco is being handed a spot, and Snider and Thames are fighting each other (and putting on quite a show!) for another spot. If you want to win games, you carry both.

In part, I always figured that the acquisition of Francisco (a winning player with a decent track record, playoff experience, and a solid reputation for his defense) was to find a way to increase the value of all three players. If they're all seen as ML caliber players, and Thames and Snider are duke'n it out, perhaps it'll allow AA to deal Francisco at the end of spring training, and give BOTH players a vote of confidence. "you earned it boys, now keep crushing that baseball".

We didn't give up much for Francisco, so losing him for next to nothing shouldn't bother too many of us, provided both Snider and Thames are getting ABs with the Jays.

As much as we'd like to believe the Jays are in a complete WIN-NOW mode, they do need to figure out who their future assets are going to be.

Besides, if you carry both guys, you aren't using an option on either!

Via bluejays.com

Is it possible that the Blue Jays will carry both Thames and Snider on their 25-man roster to start the season?
-- Bill K., Washington, D.C.

No. The Blue Jays have already indicated that the odd man out in the competition between Snider and Thames will begin the year at Triple-A. The club wants both players to receive regular at-bats to continue their development. With Edwin Encarnacion firmly entrenched at designated hitter, there simply isn't enough room on the roster to ensure that would happen at the Major League level.

That's one of the main reasons the club acquired outfielder Ben Francisco from the Phillies during the offseason. Francisco and speedster Rajai Davis will serve in bench roles and will see time against left-handed pitchers.

mtf
03-21-2012, 04:36 AM
I think Snider will be traded before the end of April, and it's really unfortunate because he seems like the type of player Anthopoulos would normally target had he been on another team.

If it were my decision, I would bat him in front of either Lawrie or Bautista, as they are both right-handed batters and Snider is a lefty.

ah nuts
03-21-2012, 09:54 AM
i would say the truth is Thames IS NOT the future LFer of the jays. You will see this :facepalm: to often in the field. His D is not for the team AA wants to build.

It's Snider's position, it's just a matter of when. It's the last year to see if Snider is a keeper and the jays will not waste this opportunity.

The only exception is if Thames bat becomes so terrific that have to keep him in the line up.

ramz.n
03-21-2012, 10:47 AM
Snider has to earn his spot...he simply can't be hitting around .200 and expect to be in this lineup.

Gibby
03-22-2012, 04:26 PM
Snider has to earn his spot...he simply can't be hitting around .200 and expect to be in this lineup.

In his first 3 years 764 OPS thats on par with EE and Francisco's career number. So why do those 2 get priority over Snider when Snider's potential is much greater

During those first 3 years he showed flashes brilliance but some sort injury always set him back and he never recovered that groove. Last year he was injured and got less than 200 at bats. How is that enough evidence to say he shouldn't start.

Shifty1 69
03-23-2012, 01:33 PM
I feel like Snider has been treated poorly a lot, but honestly, he never proved he deserved to be our number 3 or 4 hitter. Until he can consistently show it, he doesn't deserve that spot. This is the year for him in my opinion. Either he takes the leap we all want and expected him to take long ago, or he shows he doesn't belong and ends up getting traded after the season.

How can he have deserved to get into the 3/4 when the organization has never put him in position to succeed anywhere in the lineup. Jerking a 21-23yo around and expecting him to cope on the fly was unreasonable.
The kid can flat out hit if he gets out of his own head. He has shown extended spurts of outstanding abilities... what we saw last year was a complete mess, nothing resembling Snider of previous years.
Along with being the better defender and baserunner, he should be given every opportunity to go with it this year if he is showing in any way that he deserves it. Or trade him let him try to work within another organization.

Shifty1 69
03-23-2012, 01:43 PM
I was at the forum main page and saw this thread as "Matt Stairs: Stop Jerking..."

I had no idea what it could say but I gotta admit this is a let down.

So let me get this right: You clicked on a link about Matt Stairs Jerking and you were let down when finding out it was tweets about Travis Snider. Might you please explain what you were hoping to see when you clicked it??:speechless::facepalm::D jk

wagnall
03-23-2012, 02:00 PM
So let me get this right: You clicked on a link about Matt Stairs Jerking and you were let down when finding out it was tweets about Travis Snider. Might you please explain what you were hoping to see when you clicked it??:speechless::facepalm::D jk


Funny :laugh:

wagnall
03-23-2012, 02:13 PM
Wasn't Fransico signed because other than Bautista and Davis the rest of the guys are LH bats and Fransico is a righty alternative. I'm not sure why we got him, but AA had his reasons. Has he changed his mind now, don't know, but if Snider or Thames are sent back to AAA, won't be surprised to see Fransico joining Davis, Vizquel and Mathis on the bench. Unless AA has changed his mind.

wagnall
03-23-2012, 02:18 PM
What would we do without Bautista. Anyone having to get thier bat back gets to hit in front of him. Its almost like a contest who gets to hit #2. Kind of nice problem to have, but I wish the competion was who gets to hit behind him. So far nothin comes up...Yet!

adid727
03-23-2012, 03:23 PM
Wasn't Fransico signed because other than Bautista and Davis the rest of the guys are LH bats and Fransico is a righty alternative. I'm not sure why we got him, but AA had his reasons. Has he changed his mind now, don't know, but if Snider or Thames are sent back to AAA, won't be surprised to see Fransico joining Davis, Vizquel and Mathis on the bench. Unless AA has changed his mind.

he wasn't signed, but yes, they did get him to have another righty alternative.

nithanyo
03-24-2012, 01:04 AM
This is just a maybe but it seems as though its not Just Gaston that didnt like Snider. He was sent down a couple of times under Farells watch too. I believe AA does the demoting and promoting; and Anthopolus is a smart man.

So whos to say that maybe Snider is not a disturbance in the clubhouse?

Its also well documented that Snider has gone through Anger management therapies

Farsight
03-24-2012, 02:13 AM
This is just a maybe but it seems as though its not Just Gaston that didnt like Snider. He was sent down a couple of times under Farells watch too. I believe AA does the demoting and promoting; and Anthopolus is a smart man.

So whos to say that maybe Snider is not a disturbance in the clubhouse?

Its also well documented that Snider has gone through Anger management therapies Snider has gone through anger management since he was 16. He had a rough childhood as a close friend, grandparents, coach, and mother all died within a few years of eachother... So its easy to see why he was probably angry at himself and the world.

No one know's for certain that he is a cancer in the club house but i have not heard a report or other ball players call him out. However, it was obvious that Gaston resented him for some apparent reason, and Matt Stairs really does confirm this.

Apparently Lawrie, Snider, and JPA are close friends, and it seems that he gets along with other young players as you see him hanging out with others. There might be a divide with the older players, but i dont really think hes a clubhouse cancer

StealingSigns
03-24-2012, 02:30 AM
This is just a maybe but it seems as though its not Just Gaston that didnt like Snider. He was sent down a couple of times under Farells watch too. I believe AA does the demoting and promoting; and Anthopolus is a smart man.

So whos to say that maybe Snider is not a disturbance in the clubhouse?

Its also well documented that Snider has gone through Anger management therapies

You raise an interesting point.

Snider was just a kid when the organization drafted him. He came from a dysfunctional family; when he was 14, his mother was in a coma, and never fully recovered. His parents divorced afterwords. She died in a car accident the year after he was drafted.

Again, he was just a kid.

Travis entered into anger management sessions to deal with these issues when he was a teenager.

Is he a headcase? Is he a problem in the clubhouse? Perhaps. But I sure as hell hope the Jays are on top of this. Sending him back and forth between the minors and the bigs isn't going to help matters, methinks...

JaysFan87
03-24-2012, 02:35 AM
love it!!! Now he is a club house disturbance!! I wonder whats next.....

Farsight
03-24-2012, 02:51 AM
You raise an interesting point.

Snider was just a kid when the organization drafted him. He came from a dysfunctional family; when he was 14, his mother was in a coma, and never fully recovered. His parents divorced afterwords. She died in a car accident the year after he was drafted.

Again, he was just a kid.

Travis entered into anger management sessions to deal with these issues when he was a teenager.

Is he a headcase? Is he a problem in the clubhouse? Perhaps. But I sure as hell hope the Jays are on top of this. Sending him back and forth between the minors and the bigs isn't going to help matters, methinks... If i went through what he did, i would need anger management as well... Unfortunate that someone has to see soo many people that close to him die at such a young age

ghost dog
03-24-2012, 04:45 AM
Ok new season and it's still the Snider was not treated fair and Thames got handed the job. But wait there is a new twist it's a heads up battle for the job and the looser is gone. So as fans are we going to call foul if one faces tougher pitchers than the other or is this the year that it is finally settled?
I would rather talk about the catchers

wamco
03-24-2012, 06:19 AM
love it!!! Now he is a club house disturbance!! I wonder whats next.....

blame him for lind and hill's downfall?

nithanyo
03-24-2012, 10:48 PM
love it!!! Now he is a club house disturbance!! I wonder whats next.....

It was just a speculation.

But there has to be a reason Gaston didn't like him and there has to be a reason AA and Farell sent him down so many times.

What do you suppose the reason?

Other than the obvious which i have stated a few times(not being able to hit at the major league level)

2009mvp
03-25-2012, 02:02 PM
Did we all forget the whole clubhouse mutiny thing already? Obviously Snider isn't the only one who had issues with Cito.

town123
03-29-2012, 06:01 PM
Cito hated any kid, thought you had to pay your dues. Funny thinking of JPA mashing in his debut, then riding the pines pretty much the rest of the season. With Cito everything was personal.

Billyen
03-29-2012, 10:54 PM
To me the whole thing with this Snider is the message it sends to the younger players. Am I valued on my results/performance or do you need to be liked by the inner circle?

-AA makes a deal with Loewen. I'll you 1000 ABs and you show me you can make it as a OFer. He does, we release him.
-We sign the worst hitting catcher in the game to 2M. There wasn't another vet catcher available?
-We sign EE to a 3.5M deal after a bad season. I actually think EE may break out but, 3.5M is a risk. Who was going to pay him more?
-McGowan who I hope does well, is given a 2-3 year deal after years of injury and didn't light it up last year. Why are we not waiting to see if he's back to normal?I'd rather pay him the minimum and if he does well then pay more later. Better risk/reward.

Snider is told that if he does well in ST he'll have a chance to make the roster. He does that. Get's send down.

I love AA but, he and his management team haven't won yet. These aren't the moves of a winner. They are doing great things but, these are decision that make the fan and the younger players wonder if I need to focus on being a good baseball player or spend more time socially with the Jays brass.

The farm is bursting with talent. Who get's sent up for 100 games or who rots in AAA. If I'm one of those great arms coming up I'd be concerned. I'll also make sure I crash AA birthday parth with a nice gift.

JermanJaysFan
03-30-2012, 12:19 AM
To me the whole thing with this Snider is the message it sends to the younger players. Am I valued on my results/performance or do you need to be liked by the inner circle?

-AA makes a deal with Loewen. I'll you 1000 ABs and you show me you can make it as a OFer. He does, we release him.
-We sign the worst hitting catcher in the game to 2M. There wasn't another vet catcher available?
-We sign EE to a 3.5M deal after a bad season. I actually think EE may break out but, 3.5M is a risk. Who was going to pay him more?
-McGowan who I hope does well, is given a 2-3 year deal after years of injury and didn't light it up last year. Why are we not waiting to see if he's back to normal?I'd rather pay him the minimum and if he does well then pay more later. Better risk/reward.

Snider is told that if he does well in ST he'll have a chance to make the roster. He does that. Get's send down.

I love AA but, he and his management team haven't won yet. These aren't the moves of a winner. They are doing great things but, these are decision that make the fan and the younger players wonder if I need to focus on being a good baseball player or spend more time socially with the Jays brass.

The farm is bursting with talent. Who get's sent up for 100 games or who rots in AAA. If I'm one of those great arms coming up I'd be concerned. I'll also make sure I crash AA birthday parth with a nice gift.

IIRC we didn't release him really. I think what happened is his contract ended, and AA said "We'd be happy to bring you back to play at AAA, but test the waters to see if you can find a better situation out there".

2009mvp
03-30-2012, 12:39 AM
Yeah not seeing an issue there. Loewen was a FA out of options, the Jays had no room to give him a legitimate shot at competing for a job. They didn't say take 1000 AB's and we'll see you in Toronto, they said take 1000 bats and we'll evaluate where you are. He just got cut by the Mets too, which should tell you that he simply wasn't/isn't good enough.

nithanyo
03-30-2012, 03:13 AM
Cito hated any kid, thought you had to pay your dues. Funny thinking of JPA mashing in his debut, then riding the pines pretty much the rest of the season. With Cito everything was personal.

I dunno. some players excelled under cito. Adam lind loved cito off while Jose Bautista credits cito for his turnaround.

Some dont like him. thats all. I think that goes for every manager

ah nuts
03-30-2012, 08:29 AM
-AA makes a deal with Loewen. I'll you 1000 ABs and you show me you can make it as a OFer. He does, we release him.

AA was being helpful, there was no future for Loewen with the jays


-We sign the worst hitting catcher in the game to 2M. There wasn't another vet catcher available?

one of the best "D" and game calling skill - and a back up



-We sign EE to a 3.5M deal after a bad season. I actually think EE may break out but, 3.5M is a risk. Who was going to pay him more?

3.5 mil is peanuts and this year might show you why.


-McGowan who I hope does well, is given a 2-3 year deal after years of injury and didn't light it up last year. Why are we not waiting to see if he's back to normal?I'd rather pay him the minimum and if he does well then pay more later. Better risk/reward.


again, peanuts for potential ace stuff. And who say Mcgowan would have accepted minimun.


Snider is told that if he does well in ST he'll have a chance to make the roster. He does that. Get's send down.

no , he was told he have to notably out play Thames


I love AA but, he and his management team haven't won yet.

what?! AA have won in the east after 2 years as GM! fire him..

wamco
03-30-2012, 08:58 AM
Originally Posted by Billyen
-We sign the worst hitting catcher in the game to 2M. There wasn't another vet catcher available?

one of the best "D"

-really?

miller74
03-30-2012, 10:26 AM
It was just a speculation.

But there has to be a reason Gaston didn't like him and there has to be a reason AA and Farell sent him down so many times.

What do you suppose the reason?

Other than the obvious which i have stated a few times(not being able to hit at the major league level)

Was there a reason why Gaston didnt like Shawn Green or John Olerud? No thats just Cito

JermanJaysFan
03-30-2012, 11:04 AM
Originally Posted by Billyen
-We sign the worst hitting catcher in the game to 2M. There wasn't another vet catcher available?

one of the best "D"

-really?
Metrics rate him as a very "meh" catcher defensively, but the anecdotal evidence out of LA lauds his work with a pitching staff. Guess we'll have to see for ourselves (hopefully not too much).

mkcavy
03-30-2012, 12:42 PM
Can we put the Travis Snider arugments to bed finally? The kid tears up the minor leagues, but every time he's promoted he has been average at best. Cito, JP Riccardi, Ferrel and AA have all had looks at him and demoted him, so while Cito may have had it in for him, it appears he isn't the only person in management to be critical of his game.

He many have all the talent in the world, but he just hasn't put it all together in the ML yet. I don't know if its attitude, slumps, swing or whatever, and frankly I don't care. The reality is he's going to start in AAA and one of two things will happen: a) he will be called up and play every day in LF for a prolonged period of time (with no options left, I doubt they'd call him up to sit on the bench) or b) he will be packaged in a trade in the next two months.

Until one of those happen, who cares. He's in AAA, life goes on.

ah nuts
03-30-2012, 01:04 PM
... "Angels pitchers wonder how they could do it without him. Theyre able to throw pitches in the dirt without worrying about giving runners a cheap extra base because Mathis is nimble enough to block them.

Hes arguably the best defensive catcher in the league, I think, Jered Weaver said. Hes like a shortstop back there, hes just so quick.

2009mvp
03-30-2012, 01:08 PM
More anecdotal evidence. I'd bet you can find one of his pitchers saying Mike Piazza was practically Johnny Bench back there even if we all know better.

Chadsky
03-30-2012, 08:16 PM
When he performs consistently and can hit all types of pitches without looking like a fool and striking out more than a MLB should, he will stay at the ML level. At some point, you just have to figure it out and maybe he's got the motivation now because I am sure he does not want to remain in LV all year. An injury will give him an opportunity and we will see what he can do.

ah nuts
03-31-2012, 12:15 AM
More anecdotal evidence. I'd bet you can find one of his pitchers saying Mike Piazza was practically Johnny Bench back there even if we all know better.

and you believe this opinion is based on one pitcher?? because im sure that's all you will get for Mike Piazza. That's silly.

The angel's manger and obviously AA and staff believes in him. These are some very smart baseball guys. And obviously he is not here for his bat.

I really don't understand what you guys argue sometime.

This guy might indeed have a few defensive holes, but by all indication this guy should be very valuable behind the plate as a backup and for a young staff.

wamco
03-31-2012, 06:18 AM
maybe he was great in comparison to napoli