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OA SLAY
03-19-2012, 11:16 AM
T-Mac recently stated that he believes he should be elected into HOF.
Thoughts? And if so is he 1st/2nd/3rd ballot?

dgreat5000
03-19-2012, 11:20 AM
No! Never got team out of 1st rd playoffs, and his #s aren't good enough to look past that

BigCityofDreams
03-19-2012, 11:22 AM
Not anymore but you could make the case he was on his way to the Hall.

Chronz
03-19-2012, 11:23 AM
T-Mac recently stated that he believes he should be elected into HOF.
Thoughts? And if so is he 1st/2nd/3rd ballot?
He is in talent, ability, and value as a star in his prime, his game was so magnificent that his style of play and demeanor spread through the youth, Durant being the most prominent example of his influence. He was at one point the games most popular player.

That is a HOFer, especially when you look at the mediocre players in the hall. That said, if he makes it, it will be in the distant future, like Gilmore or the guy who invented the shot clock (saving the game in the process, poor guy never lived to see the day), in short who cares, its a joke

PhillyFaninLA
03-19-2012, 11:23 AM
No. He was good and borderline great but I think people often confuse flashy highlight reel players with special.

flea
03-19-2012, 11:24 AM
Ehh it's closer than some think but I'd say he still has work to do. For a few years he was the best in the game, it's just too bad his knees gave out. He carried some pretty awful teams to respectability.

lvlheaded
03-19-2012, 11:25 AM
He could have been and probably would have been but he never stayed healthy enough. If he had a couple more years of being dominant and maybe got a ring he would have been

Chronz
03-19-2012, 11:25 AM
No! Never got team out of 1st rd playoffs, and his #s aren't good enough to look past that
What #s are you looking at? In his prime there was no one better statistically. Hess the greatest player to never get past round one, so if his stats aren't good enough to look past it, give me an example of whos are.

Chronz
03-19-2012, 11:29 AM
No. He was good and borderline great but I think people often confuse flashy highlight reel players with special.
LOL so he was a perennial AllNba and an MVP candidate throughout his prime because he was flashy?

No it was because he was that damn good. Better than someone like Pierce (who will make the Hall because KG saved him from a similar fate).

ManRam
03-19-2012, 11:29 AM
"Good not great" and "#'s aren't good enough" suggest to me that some people already forget how good he was in his prime...

If he makes it, it won't be for a while after he's eligible, and it probably will be because of his lack of playoff success. His 2002-2003 season was as good as just about any season anyone has had in the last decade. In his prime, he was an absolute star and a top 3 player. Injuries have halted his career a bit, and that hurts as well.

benzni
03-19-2012, 11:33 AM
He would have been. I am still waiting for the day he comes back and becomes a great player. Unfortunately that's not likely

UPRock
03-19-2012, 11:33 AM
I think both, him and Carter will go there.

OA SLAY
03-19-2012, 11:40 AM
Career averages 20pts 1.2st. 1block. 5.7reb. 4.5ass.

How are those numbers not good enough?

ahigbee
03-19-2012, 11:43 AM
I dont think he would ever be considered for the hall of fame. Too many one and dones in the playoffs, too many injuries and missed seasons.

Dont get me wrong, when he was healthy and right, there wasnt many players more dangerous then him, but I think he lacked that little thing that makes Kobe and MJ so great. Determination.

Vincent
03-19-2012, 11:48 AM
I think the voters will take a look at the injuries and the lack of playoff success and not vote him in.

But based on skill level in his prime, he's definitely a better player than some of those that are already in the Hall.

LongIslandIcedZ
03-19-2012, 11:51 AM
Man I hope so. He was my first favorite professional athlete that didnt just play for my team. The dude in his prime was unbelievable. I hope with his career coming to an end he can hop on a team and contribute to a championship. Even though his first trip in NY wasnt great, I wish they could get him back.

ahigbee
03-19-2012, 12:00 PM
Career averages 20pts 1.2st. 1block. 5.7reb. 4.5ass.

How are those numbers not good enough?

Blind Current Career Statistics

19.4 PPG 3.9 R 2.2 A .448% FGP .380% 3FGP

19.9 PPG 5.7 R 4.5 A .435% FGP .338% 3FGP

The second set is T Mac, which granted are good numbers. But not all that much different from first set of numbers, who are from Michael Redd former Buck and Current Suns Player.

If you are going purely off Numbers, There are a ton of players not in the HOF that could be "according to numbers".

Rivera
03-19-2012, 12:08 PM
im gonna say no...he had HOF talent but injuries and playoff history play a part for me personally

but the BBall HOF is a pretty big joke anyway IMO so i honestly wouldnt be surprised if he made it

I dont even have VC in my bball HOF...i would post images in there of VC and his dunks but he isnt a HOFer in my book.....but i can guarntee the BBall HOF will elect VC

Jamiecballer
03-19-2012, 12:09 PM
Hall of Fame talent? Yes

Career worthy of the Hall of Fame? NO

Ballah0liC1
03-19-2012, 12:22 PM
Blind Current Career Statistics

19.4 PPG 3.9 R 2.2 A .448% FGP .380% 3FGP

19.9 PPG 5.7 R 4.5 A .435% FGP .338% 3FGP

The second set is T Mac, which granted are good numbers. But not all that much different from first set of numbers, who are from Michael Redd former Buck and Current Suns Player.

If you are going purely off Numbers, There are a ton of players not in the HOF that could be "according to numbers".

I dont think he will make it but come on redd was never even a top 5 sg in the league while tmac was a top 5 player for atleast 5 years.

he was my favorite player growing up, considering how many games he missed or left early to have over 20000 point is pretty good

willabeast77
03-19-2012, 12:25 PM
Yes he is a HOF'er but he needs a few more seasons to cement it. Give it a few more yrs and he'll be in for sure.

OA SLAY
03-19-2012, 12:28 PM
So what's the case for Grant Hill?
I believe he should make it there for I believe Tmac should hands down.
There are far lesser players in the hall.

BULLSFAN0810
03-19-2012, 12:35 PM
He is in talent, ability, and value as a star in his prime, his game was so magnificent that his style of play and demeanor spread through the youth, Durant being the most prominent example of his influence. He was at one point the games most popular player.

That is a HOFer, especially when you look at the mediocre players in the hall. That said, if he makes it, it will be in the distant future, like Gilmore or the guy who invented the shot clock (saving the game in the process, poor guy never lived to see the day), in short who cares, its a joke


+1 to add to this...(LA KOBE FANS DO NOT GET MAD) Tmac was the premier Guard over Kobe for YEARS...YEARS..Not a season...YEARS...It was 2 diffrent situations. Tmac was trying to build a team around him...Kobe had a team .actually wasnt best player on his team,and had a coach. Injuries hurt Tmac. The only nod for Kobe is he made it clear he was a winner,but if it was IF I HAD THE CHANCE TO CLONE THEIR SKILLS/SIZE AND BECOME ONE OF THEM...NO DOUBT TMAC...6'9 SG??!?!? WITH HANDLES, AND JUMPER???!?!?!? AND CAN PUT YOU ON A POSTER?! TMAC...AND I LOVE KOBE.

NYtilIdie
03-19-2012, 12:36 PM
He also has one the highest PPG averages in playoff history.

Ballah0liC1
03-19-2012, 12:37 PM
So what's the case for Grant Hill?
I believe he should make it there for I believe Tmac should hands down.
There are far lesser players in the hall.

I think they both should make it but wont cause of injuries, it sucks hill and tmac never got to play together (consistently)

Ballah0liC1
03-19-2012, 12:41 PM
one of the most impressive things for me about tmac is he had a low turnover rate for a guy that was the scorer and playmaker for many years

Iodine
03-19-2012, 12:46 PM
He is in talent, ability, and value as a star in his prime, his game was so magnificent that his style of play and demeanor spread through the youth, Durant being the most prominent example of his influence. He was at one point the games most popular player.

That is a HOFer, especially when you look at the mediocre players in the hall. That said, if he makes it, it will be in the distant future, like Gilmore or the guy who invented the shot clock (saving the game in the process, poor guy never lived to see the day), in short who cares, its a joke

Danny Biasone, who wore some badass hats invented the shotclock, and yeah its sad he was dead before he got in

and the NBA HoF is a joke in the first place

whitemamba33
03-19-2012, 12:53 PM
No.

In my opinion, his prime was too short to justify his HOF entrance being based mostly on what he did in his prime. He had 3 great seasons in Orlando. In his fourth season there he shot 41% and he never again shot the 45% that he shot the year before. He spent a large part of what SHOULD have been his prime injured.

What kind of impact did he have on his team in his prime?

41-41 -Orlando record the year BEFORE he arrived.
43-39 -Orlando record in the first year he was on the team.
44-38 -Orlando record in the second year he was on the team.
42-40 -Orlando record in the third year he was on the team.
21-61 -Orlando record in the fourth and final year he was on the team.


You can go on and on about how popular he was and his All NBA honors, but do those reasons outweight not ever making it out of the 1st round of the playoffs? Or having your team go past the first round with you on the sidelines? Winning trumps popularity and the bogus awards that the NBA hands out every year...at least in my opinion. And regardless, I find it hard to ignore the several incidents he's had with upper magement. I'm not saying it's at all the deciding factor here, but it's hard to ignore that he fought with the two best teams he was on.


In addition, I feel as though the HOF is getting a little bit crowded. I'm not basing my opinion on who has been allowed in the past, because I think if you have to start grasping at those kinds of straws there is probably a reason for it.

He clearly had the TALENT to be in the HOF. He just didn't have enough of an opportunity to do it long enough.

MickeyMgl
03-19-2012, 12:56 PM
T-Mac recently stated that he believes he should be elected into HOF.
Thoughts? And if so is he 1st/2nd/3rd ballot?

Are you serious?

Iodine
03-19-2012, 12:57 PM
Using team records as main reason FTW!

ahigbee
03-19-2012, 12:58 PM
I dont think he will make it but come on redd was never even a top 5 sg in the league while tmac was a top 5 player for atleast 5 years.

he was my favorite player growing up, considering how many games he missed or left early to have over 20000 point is pretty good

That is exactly my point. If you are saying he deserves to get in on Numbers, that means you open the door for a ton of other players too that by no means ever deserve to be in the HOF

ghettosean
03-19-2012, 01:00 PM
No! Never got team out of 1st rd playoffs, and his #s aren't good enough to look past that
Yes he did!!! He just was just injured at that time... LOL

He deserves to make it into the HOF... He's a superstar talent and honestly in his prime was probably a greater offensive threat than Kobe Bryant so yes he should be in the hall of fame.

If he stayed with the Raptors and V.C I think there wouldn't even be any questions as he would have rings on his fingers and probably be god to fans in Toronto. He took the villan role though and it just didn't work out for him.

I'm from Toronto and I'm saying he should be in there... What else more is there to say!?!

ghettosean
03-19-2012, 01:02 PM
Hall of Fame talent? Yes

Career worthy of the Hall of Fame? NO
That's probably the better response to use Jamie....

Another T.O man saying it right there!

whitemamba33
03-19-2012, 01:06 PM
Using team records as main reason FTW!

...in addition to shooting percentages, games lost to injury, and peaking in his early 20's.

willabeast77
03-19-2012, 01:07 PM
No.

In my opinion, his prime was too short to justify his HOF entrance being based mostly on what he did in his prime. He had 3 great seasons in Orlando. In his fourth season there he shot 41% and he never again shot the 45% that he shot the year before. He spent a large part of what SHOULD have been his prime injured.

What kind of impact did he have on his team in his prime?

41-41 -Orlando record the year BEFORE he arrived.
43-39 -Orlando record in the first year he was on the team.
44-38 -Orlando record in the second year he was on the team.
42-40 -Orlando record in the third year he was on the team.
21-61 -Orlando record in the fourth and final year he was on the team.


You can go on and on about how popular he was and his All NBA honors, but do those reasons outweight not ever making it out of the 1st round of the playoffs? Or having your team go past the first round with you on the sidelines? Winning trumps popularity and the bogus awards that the NBA hands out every year...at least in my opinion. And regardless, I find it hard to ignore the several incidents he's had with upper magement. I'm not saying it's at all the deciding factor here, but it's hard to ignore that he fought with the two best teams he was on.


In addition, I feel as though the HOF is getting a little bit crowded. I'm not basing my opinion on who has been allowed in the past, because I think if you have to start grasping at those kinds of straws there is probably a reason for it.

He clearly had the TALENT to be in the HOF. He just didn't have enough of an opportunity to do it long enough.

His Magic teams were never really the favorites to defeat the opponent in the first round. Looking at his teams over the years (specifically the Rockets teams, he was only about favored in passing the first round aobut once or twice (those series against Utah but the teams were pretty even stat wise).

whitemamba33
03-19-2012, 01:08 PM
Yes he did!!! He just was just injured at that time... LOL

He deserves to make it into the HOF... He's a superstar talent and honestly in his prime was probably a greater offensive threat than Kobe Bryant so yes he should be in the hall of fame.

If he stayed with the Raptors and V.C I think there wouldn't even be any questions as he would have rings on his fingers and probably be god to fans in Toronto. He took the villan role though and it just didn't work out for him.

I'm from Toronto and I'm saying he should be in there... What else more is there to say!?!

He can't get into the HOF based on "what if's" though.

ghettosean
03-19-2012, 01:08 PM
im gonna say no...he had HOF talent but injuries and playoff history play a part for me personally

but the BBall HOF is a pretty big joke anyway IMO so i honestly wouldnt be surprised if he made it

I dont even have VC in my bball HOF...i would post images in there of VC and his dunks but he isnt a HOFer in my book.....but i can guarntee the BBall HOF will elect VC
Really though guy???

V.C was the best dunker of all time and also made the dunk contest fun to watch again. He was also the icon of this league for a few years and was even compared to Michael Jordan (even though it was premature).

He completely should be in the HOF... They should make a rule whether you do it in the NBA or not if you dunk over a 7ft human being you get in the HOF automatically.

ghettosean
03-19-2012, 01:11 PM
He can't get into the HOF based on "what if's" though.
Agreed but he was a better scorer than Kobe for a while though... It's honestly fact but if he doesn't make it into the HOF I won't lose any sleep over it. I will have to stop this conversation though because I'm getting a little sick to my stomach that I'm actually sticking up for T-Mac and V.C when they both burned T.O so badly (T-Mac not so much but Vince ****ed us real good and we are almost recovered as of now.... ALMOST).

ThuglifeJ
03-19-2012, 01:12 PM
Man I wish..but im pretty sure he wont.



LOL so he was a perennial AllNba and an MVP candidate throughout his prime because he was flashy?

No it was because he was that damn good. Better than someone like Pierce (who will make the Hall because KG saved him from a similar fate).

I agree with this. Pierce you have to respect for being able to do what he does after all the years, BUT if Pierce was ever shipped to another team at any point..he wouldn't carry ****. Kobe/Pierce are allowed to do what they still do becuz they stayed in the same franchise and got help. Ppl will disagree, but you know it's true. It's Tmacs fault for leaving Orl or Tor even..but I gaurentee. GAURENTEE players like Tmac or VC would still be producing much better if they stayed with their franchises and not left to adapt to new systems.. It's a mentality thing. You have more confidence in a franchise you've been with for so long, comfortable there.


Tmac should make it for his impact on the leauge alone. Players now days dont carry that same impact, drawing fans in themselves. Durants the ****, a top 10 player for a bit now, but not even he can draw in non-NBA fans and make them NBA fans like Tmac/VC/AI did. That aspect gets overlooked to me. If you're the league owner you'd most likely want Tmac/VC/AI entering the league with their leadership in terms of excitment they bring/confidece in the limelight, versus Durant/Pierce/Joe Johnson

that's just how I feel though. And Durant is one of my favorites.

BULLSFAN0810
03-19-2012, 01:13 PM
No.

In my opinion, his prime was too short to justify his HOF entrance being based mostly on what he did in his prime. He had 3 great seasons in Orlando. In his fourth season there he shot 41% and he never again shot the 45% that he shot the year before. He spent a large part of what SHOULD have been his prime injured.

What kind of impact did he have on his team in his prime?

41-41 -Orlando record the year BEFORE he arrived.
43-39 -Orlando record in the first year he was on the team.
44-38 -Orlando record in the second year he was on the team.
42-40 -Orlando record in the third year he was on the team.
21-61 -Orlando record in the fourth and final year he was on the team.


You can go on and on about how popular he was and his All NBA honors, but do those reasons outweight not ever making it out of the 1st round of the playoffs? Or having your team go past the first round with you on the sidelines? Winning trumps popularity and the bogus awards that the NBA hands out every year...at least in my opinion. And regardless, I find it hard to ignore the several incidents he's had with upper magement. I'm not saying it's at all the deciding factor here, but it's hard to ignore that he fought with the two best teams he was on.


In addition, I feel as though the HOF is getting a little bit crowded. I'm not basing my opinion on who has been allowed in the past, because I think if you have to start grasping at those kinds of straws there is probably a reason for it.

He clearly had the TALENT to be in the HOF. He just didn't have enough of an opportunity to do it long enough.


Great post

willabeast77
03-19-2012, 01:17 PM
Tracy McGrady credentials:
-7 NBA All-Star (2001–2007)
-2 NBA Scoring Champion (2003–2004)
-2 All-NBA First Team (2002–2003)
-3 All-NBA Second Team (2001, 2004, 2007)
-2 All-NBA Third Team (2005, 2008)
-NBA Most Improved Player (2001)

This is enough to get in the Hall. The only backlash is him not passing the first round as the no.1 option

ThuglifeJ
03-19-2012, 01:20 PM
As much as I'd want Tmac in it honestly is pretty stupid hes throwing that claim out there himself..

whitemamba33
03-19-2012, 01:28 PM
His Magic teams were never really the favorites to defeat the opponent in the first round. Looking at his teams over the years (specifically the Rockets teams, he was only about favored in passing the first round aobut once or twice (those series against Utah but the teams were pretty even stat wise).

And that's fine.

My point is that by stats alone, he had three great seasons in Orlando, but spent most of his seasons shooting low 40's and even high 30's. He also missed a ton of games, and peaked really early.

So with a player in his situation, I would think that the PRO-HOF argument would have to be focused on things like winning, the impact he had on his team compared to how they did without him, what he contributed to the game etc.

whitemamba33
03-19-2012, 01:33 PM
Agreed but he was a better scorer than Kobe for a while though... It's honestly fact but if he doesn't make it into the HOF I won't lose any sleep over it. I will have to stop this conversation though because I'm getting a little sick to my stomach that I'm actually sticking up for T-Mac and V.C when they both burned T.O so badly (T-Mac not so much but Vince ****ed us real good and we are almost recovered as of now.... ALMOST).

What do you mean by a "better scorer" than Kobe? That he scored more points for a couple seasons at the start of the decade? Kobe shared the ball with Shaq, and they won three championships. TMAC was pretty much by himself and had the green light to shoot the ball as many times as he wanted. I'm not sure how being a better scorer than Kobe in his early twenties when he was winning championships and playing with one of the greatest centers ever is a good argument.

whitemamba33
03-19-2012, 01:35 PM
Tracy McGrady credentials:
-7 NBA All-Star (20012007)
-2 NBA Scoring Champion (20032004)
-2 All-NBA First Team (20022003)
-3 All-NBA Second Team (2001, 2004, 2007)
-2 All-NBA Third Team (2005, 2008)
-NBA Most Improved Player (2001)

This is enough to get in the Hall. The only backlash is him not passing the first round as the no.1 option

He was only first team twice? Did not know that.

NoahH
03-19-2012, 01:42 PM
I'd put him in the HOF

ichitownclowni
03-19-2012, 01:45 PM
I think he gets in

willabeast77
03-19-2012, 01:48 PM
And that's fine.

My point is that by stats alone, he had three great seasons in Orlando, but spent most of his seasons shooting low 40's and even high 30's. He also missed a ton of games, and peaked really early.

So with a player in his situation, I would think that the PRO-HOF argument would have to be focused on things like winning, the impact he had on his team compared to how they did without him, what he contributed to the game etc.

His 4 seasons in Orlando were still good and he was considered a top 10 player in those years (top 3 SG/SF). It wasn't his fault the 03-04 Magic team was poor- he had a lack of teammates. He was still good that year (3rd in PER). He would have made the first All-nba team but them missing the playoffs hurt his cause.

Losoway
03-19-2012, 02:32 PM
hell no

if allen iverson aint make it .....t mac lazy *** could stay on the bench

Baller1
03-19-2012, 02:55 PM
Yes... Easily in my opinion.

KnicksorBust
03-19-2012, 03:01 PM
No.

In my opinion, his prime was too short to justify his HOF entrance being based mostly on what he did in his prime. He had 3 great seasons in Orlando. In his fourth season there he shot 41% and he never again shot the 45% that he shot the year before. He spent a large part of what SHOULD have been his prime injured.

What kind of impact did he have on his team in his prime?

41-41 -Orlando record the year BEFORE he arrived.
43-39 -Orlando record in the first year he was on the team.
44-38 -Orlando record in the second year he was on the team.
42-40 -Orlando record in the third year he was on the team.
21-61 -Orlando record in the fourth and final year he was on the team.

You can go on and on about how popular he was and his All NBA honors, but do those reasons outweight not ever making it out of the 1st round of the playoffs? Or having your team go past the first round with you on the sidelines? Winning trumps popularity and the bogus awards that the NBA hands out every year...at least in my opinion. And regardless, I find it hard to ignore the several incidents he's had with upper magement. I'm not saying it's at all the deciding factor here, but it's hard to ignore that he fought with the two best teams he was on.


In addition, I feel as though the HOF is getting a little bit crowded. I'm not basing my opinion on who has been allowed in the past, because I think if you have to start grasping at those kinds of straws there is probably a reason for it.

He clearly had the TALENT to be in the HOF. He just didn't have enough of an opportunity to do it long enough.

I dare you to post his teammates from those seasons. You'll make T-Mac look like a 1st ballet HoF'er for bringing those stiffs to above .500

thekmp211
03-19-2012, 03:29 PM
I think both, him and Carter will go there.


Career averages 20pts 1.2st. 1block. 5.7reb. 4.5ass.

How are those numbers not good enough?

it's no contest. when you talk about the best shooting guards of the era, it goes something like -- kobe, t-mac, carter, allen. they are iconic players. and this is the basketball (not nba) hall of fame (not stats).

i'd be very surprised if either of them doesn't make it.

BKdoubleStacker
03-19-2012, 03:32 PM
hell no

if allen iverson aint make it .....t mac lazy *** could stay on the bench

lmao

iverson was a grade A chucker. He didnt play defense either.

Tmac was a much more efficient scorer and could make an impact on both sides of the floor.

dude could play 1-3, he was very versatile and its a damn shame how the kiddies in here arent showing respect.

JackB
03-19-2012, 03:45 PM
I think both, him and Carter will go there.

As vistitors. And they'll have to pay.:) basketball is getting as bad as baseball. Watered down.

Chronz
03-19-2012, 03:55 PM
Career averages 20pts 1.2st. 1block. 5.7reb. 4.5ass.

How are those numbers not good enough?

Blind Current Career Statistics

19.4 PPG 3.9 R 2.2 A .448% FGP .380% 3FGP

19.9 PPG 5.7 R 4.5 A .435% FGP .338% 3FGP

The second set is T Mac, which granted are good numbers. But not all that much different from first set of numbers, who are from Michael Redd former Buck and Current Suns Player.

If you are going purely off Numbers, There are a ton of players not in the HOF that could be "according to numbers".
According to simplistic #s, maybe but even then not close, the gap becomes a chasm when you dig deeper into their statistical makeup

BigCityofDreams
03-19-2012, 03:58 PM
lmao

iverson was a grade A chucker. He didnt play defense either.

Tmac was a much more efficient scorer and could make an impact on both sides of the floor.

dude could play 1-3, he was very versatile and its a damn shame how the kiddies in here arent showing respect.

It's not disrespect some ppl just don't think he's a HOF.

Chronz
03-19-2012, 04:03 PM
No.

In my opinion, his prime was too short to justify his HOF entrance being based mostly on what he did in his prime. He had 3 great seasons in Orlando. In his fourth season there he shot 41% and he never again shot the 45% that he shot the year before. He spent a large part of what SHOULD have been his prime injured.

What kind of impact did he have on his team in his prime?

41-41 -Orlando record the year BEFORE he arrived.
43-39 -Orlando record in the first year he was on the team.
44-38 -Orlando record in the second year he was on the team.
42-40 -Orlando record in the third year he was on the team.
21-61 -Orlando record in the fourth and final year he was on the team.


You can go on and on about how popular he was and his All NBA honors, but do those reasons outweight not ever making it out of the 1st round of the playoffs? Or having your team go past the first round with you on the sidelines? Winning trumps popularity and the bogus awards that the NBA hands out every year...at least in my opinion. And regardless, I find it hard to ignore the several incidents he's had with upper magement. I'm not saying it's at all the deciding factor here, but it's hard to ignore that he fought with the two best teams he was on.


In addition, I feel as though the HOF is getting a little bit crowded. I'm not basing my opinion on who has been allowed in the past, because I think if you have to start grasping at those kinds of straws there is probably a reason for it.

He clearly had the TALENT to be in the HOF. He just didn't have enough of an opportunity to do it long enough.
You have to dig deeper than that. For example his fg % isn't what made him efficient, it was his ball handling and playmaking. Missing a shot isn't the only way to cost your team a possession, in fact they aren't even the most costly, turnovers are, and Tmac had the ball on a string. He created a bunch of plays with a microscopic turnover rate.

As for his impact, well thats a far too simplistic attempt at something so intricate so forgive me if I save myself the time by simply saying you haven't accounted for anything, and that I'm more inclined to believe more advanced measures.

Coqui77
03-19-2012, 04:23 PM
No!!!

Rod Becks Stash
03-19-2012, 04:30 PM
I would say yes if he didn't tear up his knee, because of the years after, I do not think so.

Swashcuff
03-19-2012, 04:31 PM
Yes and first ballot as well.... at his best he was one of the best SGs in the history of the game and quite frankly if you're going to say he isn't worthy of being in the Hall because of his failure to get his teams out of the first round then in all honesty you don't know your history of the game or its HOF.

SteveNash
03-19-2012, 04:52 PM
Probably not.

Poor teammate, didn't really bring any intangibles. Soft, lazy.

Never won anything important.


According to simplistic #s, maybe but even then not close, the gap becomes a chasm when you dig deeper into their statistical makeup

It's time to admit it Chronz, Joe Johnson > Redd & T-Mac.

Swashcuff
03-19-2012, 04:54 PM
Probably not.

Poor teammate, didn't really bring any intangibles. Soft, lazy.

Never won anything important.



It's time to admit it Chronz, Joe Johnson > Redd & T-Mac.

:laugh2:

NYtilIdie
03-19-2012, 04:54 PM
I love it when people bring up the 1st round talk, you must clearly ignore the roster, only 3 or 4 of those guys are still in the league. Its like bringing a D-League team to the NBA and putting Kobe at guard and telling him to make something of it.

When Darrell Armstrong is your 2nd best players, there's clearly something wrong.

Also, T-Mac during his Magic days was clearly better than Kobe.

Swashcuff
03-19-2012, 04:58 PM
I love it when people bring up the 1st round talk, you must clearly ignore the roster, only 3 or 4 of those guys are still in the league. Its like bringing a D-League team to the NBA and putting Kobe at guard and telling him to make something of it.

When Darrell Armstrong is your 2nd best players, there's clearly something wrong.

Also, T-Mac during his Magic days was clearly better than Kobe.

Thing is however people don't like to use their brain to apply context or actually understand anything that is being discussed they just say he never made it to the 2nd round and was never a good player as a result. Its the same with Garnett in his Minny days but they fail to address the fact that one man doesn't make a team and unless the player has a decent enough cast around him he isn't going to be very successful.

Cfrey
03-19-2012, 05:04 PM
People just forget how great Tmac actually was.. It's a shame injuries hampered his career because he could have been one of the greats.

rhymeratic
03-19-2012, 05:06 PM
I feel like he needed at least 1 good playoff run that brought him to the finals or even a ring as a backup. He has none of that. Not worthy in my opinion. Hall of Fame Talent DOES NOT EQUAL Hall of Fame player.

Allen Iverson = HOF



Vince Carter = BORDERLINE HOF
T-Mac = LESS THAN BORDERLINE HOF

in fact lets keep it real...

Glen Robinson did more in his career (look at Ray Allen/Big Dawg Bucks playoff runs)

In fact the CLOSEST argument that could be made for T-Mac/Vince Carters of the world would be Grant Hill and he has YEARS on them. Pretty much identical career to T-Mac except he's gonna have longevity over him even with missing as many games as he did because honestly T-Mac missed almost same amount.

Lakers + Giants
03-19-2012, 05:07 PM
I remember him being better than kobe when Tmac was in his prime. . .that's saying a lot. Underrated passer as well. He'd easily be a top 20 player if injuries didn't ruin his career. Definitely a HOFer. . . .I still remember i was so ****in impressed when he scored 62.

Swashcuff
03-19-2012, 05:11 PM
I feel like he needed at least 1 good playoff run that brought him to the finals or even a ring as a backup. He has none of that. Not worthy in my opinion. Hall of Fame Talent DOES NOT EQUAL Hall of Fame player.

Allen Iverson = HOF

Vince Carter = BORDERLINE HOF
T-Mac = LESS THAN BORDERLINE HOF

So what about Hall of Fame production. At his best T-Mac was probably better than any SG currently in the Hall not named Michael Jordan. If it weren't for injuries he would have gone down as one of the most prolific scorers ever and would have probably been in the top 10 of the all time list.

BklyNyk
03-19-2012, 05:12 PM
If Maurice Stokes is in the HoF then T Mac deserves to be there.

97NYer
03-19-2012, 05:13 PM
Pierce is always mentioned as 1st ballot HOF, and he was never the player that T-Mac was. I think McGrady will get the nod eventually.

Chronz
03-19-2012, 05:16 PM
It's time to admit it Chronz, Joe Johnson > Redd & T-Mac.

The same Joe Johnson who left a potential power so that he could flounder in Atlanta and put up meager stats, so long as he was known as the man he was fine with losing. JJ is the most overrated player of all time.

Tmac is rated perfectly IMO, the haters are cancelled out by the legion of fans he has, I admit it wont lead to a HOF birth, but the HOF is crap.

king2218
03-19-2012, 05:38 PM
My favorite player of all time...he's not a hall of fame player unless he has a Grant Hill type of revival & helps a team get a championship. Averaging 15pts 5rb for the next 3 to 4 years with winning a championship could help his cause greatly.

king2218
03-19-2012, 05:40 PM
Probably not.

Poor teammate, didn't really bring any intangibles. Soft, lazy.

Never won anything important.



It's time to admit it Chronz, Joe Johnson > Redd & T-Mac.

:facepalm: Maybe NOW Joe Johnson is better than T-Mac. But back in the early 2000s...no way. Only player that might have been better than T-Mac would've been Kobe...and that was even debatable.

rhymeratic
03-19-2012, 05:42 PM
So what about Hall of Fame production. At his best T-Mac was probably better than any SG currently in the Hall not named Michael Jordan. If it weren't for injuries he would have gone down as one of the most prolific scorers ever and would have probably been in the top 10 of the all time list.

1. Too bad T-Mac at his best was a small sample of his ENTIRE career.

2. Allen Iverson right now is pretty much the ONLY guy from late 90's -mid 2000's era that is clearly a HOF without the ring etc.

3. T-Mac's whole career is less than Grant Hill, Vince Carter, Paul Pierce (EVEN WITHOUT THE RING), I'd even put Rashard Lewis into this conversation BARELY.

4. Joe Johnson can make a better case than T-Mac. Played well as the 4th banana in PHX and played well as the MAN in ATL even getting his teams into the 2nd round.

whitemamba33
03-19-2012, 05:42 PM
You have to dig deeper than that. For example his fg % isn't what made him efficient, it was his ball handling and playmaking. Missing a shot isn't the only way to cost your team a possession, in fact they aren't even the most costly, turnovers are, and Tmac had the ball on a string. He created a bunch of plays with a microscopic turnover rate.

As for his impact, well thats a far too simplistic attempt at something so intricate so forgive me if I save myself the time by simply saying you haven't accounted for anything, and that I'm more inclined to believe more advanced measures.

All you really did was try to hide a bad aspect of his game by bringing up a good one, and then use vague wording to help contribute to your point. You are basically just trying to sell me on the opinion that having a low turnover rate more than made up for multiple seasons of shooting below 40%...and I just don't buy that from somebody who is so rarely praised for his offensive abilities.

I'll agree that it's simplistic..but when we are talking about a guy who had 3-4 years of prime basketball and spent much of his career shooting considerably lower than 45%, I would think that the "impact" argument would be something that TMAC supporters would hold on to dearly. In this case, however, I don't see it. If i'm being asked to call him a HOF'er because of 3-4 seasons of great basketball, some NBA-issued awards that I value very low, and a low turnover rate - I'm sorry, but I can't do that.

Regardless, as i'm writing this i've noticed that you've stated that you don't think he's going to be in the HOF either, so why beat a dead horse when we clearly at least agree on that.

king2218
03-19-2012, 05:45 PM
Pierce is always mentioned as 1st ballot HOF, and he was never the player that T-Mac was. I think McGrady will get the nod eventually.

I think what's helping Pierce is his team's playoff success & the championship ring...I also think people have forgotten what T-Mac used to do, they see this broken down guy wearing the '#1' & forgot what his greatness was like. He made scoring look too easy. I think he would've been a great fit for Dallas this year (like VC is). T-Mac had five straight seasons of averaging atleast 25pts 5reb 5assts. Only Kobe has matched that.

Chronz
03-19-2012, 05:55 PM
All you really did was try to hide a bad aspect of his game by bringing up a good one, and then use vague wording to help contribute to your point. You are basically just trying to sell me on the opinion that having a low turnover rate more than made up for multiple seasons of shooting below 40%...and I just don't buy that from somebody who is so rarely praised for his offensive abilities.
Multiple seasons of below 40%? You mean his 2 Microfracture years?
And what do you mean rarely praised?
Im not hiding anything, Im just showing you the bigger picture. When you account for his microscopic turnover rate, playmaking, along with individual usage/ppp, it gives you a complete picture of his efficiency. Going by FG% as the barometer is elementary stuff.


I'll agree that it's simplistic..but when we are talking about a guy who had 3-4 years of prime basketball and spent much of his career shooting considerably lower than 45%, I would think that the "impact" argument would be something that TMAC supporters would hold on to dearly. In this case, however, I don't see it.

Thats why Tmac is so great, even in what you would call his declining years, he was still an All-NBA guy, still in the MVP ballot, and still getting the most out of his team. And again, your statistical evaluation is lacking. These arent just a few years from Joe Johnson or Paul Pierce, this was upper echelon caliber of ball he was putting on display. Those few years were historical and when you combine that with the fact that he was STILL All-NBA, STILL a lower level MVP candidate during his declining years where he transformed his game, that makes for a HOF player.


Regardless, as i'm writing this i've noticed that you've stated that you don't think he's going to be in the HOF either, so why beat a dead horse when we clearly at least agree on that.

Because Im basing that on the reality of the HOF. The guy who saved the game didnt even live to see his name enshrined, lots of guys waited forever to make it while inferior role players got a free ride. The HOF is a sham, and based on its illogical foundation, its pretty easy to see Tmac missing the HOF.

However if your asking me if he is a HOF player, based in a world where the HOF is actually comprised of the games best players, then the answer is a resounding yes.

His statistical dominance and how he got the most out of trash was truly special, especially when you consider his prime came during an era with the toughest defensive rules and talent in place.

Wisdom Listens
03-19-2012, 06:18 PM
McGrady is certainly not a HOFer.

THE_LOGO
03-19-2012, 06:19 PM
The guy was good...for a minute. And in that short window that he was good, there were no rings to show for it. He couldn't even sniff the ring. So, unequivocally, NO!

tredigs
03-19-2012, 06:31 PM
I would be very curious to know how many HOF's in league history have not once made it out of the first round in the playoffs (for those who played the majority or all of their career in the NBA). I would not be surprised if the answer is 0.

T-Mac's very impressive peak/prime aside - and his generally strong play in the playoffs aside - it's absolutely a huge hit on his Hall of Fame chances.

Hall of Fame talent, but I would be shocked if T-Mac ever gets in.

willabeast77
03-19-2012, 06:47 PM
According to baskeball-reference, he has a 61% chance of making the Hall of Fame.

http://www.basketball-reference.com/leaders/hof_prob_career.html

Ballah0liC1
03-19-2012, 06:49 PM
I love it when people bring up the 1st round talk, you must clearly ignore the roster, only 3 or 4 of those guys are still in the league. Its like bringing a D-League team to the NBA and putting Kobe at guard and telling him to make something of it.

When Darrell Armstrong is your 2nd best players, there's clearly something wrong.

Also, T-Mac during his Magic days was clearly better than Kobe.

its funny everytime a tmac thred that comes up I post the teams he had in orlando and I never get a response cause those teams were worse than some d league teams i think the only players still in the league are drew gooden,mike miller and deshawn stevenson

OlivaThor
03-19-2012, 07:13 PM
In my heart is GOAT

KB-Pau-DH2012
03-19-2012, 07:14 PM
He'll be known as the guy to win 2 scoring titles and the guy who assisted his cousin winning the slam dunk contest.


Don't think anything else is special that would warrant him a HOF induction.

Chronz
03-19-2012, 07:16 PM
I would be very curious to know how many HOF's in league history have not once made it out of the first round in the playoffs (for those who played the majority or all of their career in the NBA). I would not be surprised if the answer is 0.

T-Mac's very impressive peak/prime aside - and his generally strong play in the playoffs aside - it's absolutely a huge hit on his Hall of Fame chances.

Hall of Fame talent, but I would be shocked if T-Mac ever gets in.
Your speaking from their point of view (the voters) or your own? If its the former then think about the concept, lets say you cut KG's career in half, where you still got to see him at the top of his game but injuries took him out before he ever made it past R.1 (I think it was like 7 years straight or something). Did you really need to see him get past R.1 to know he could have? Its a very minuscule complaint, in Tmacs case, just making the post season and pushing far superior teams in his fashion were remarkable accomplishments. If Steve Nash makes the playoffs this year, it will be a season comparable to one of his MVP seasons. Team success is such a horrible way to rate an individual, Im not saying you do so blindly, you obviously understand the importance of teammates, but too often its the lazy way out and its whats driven the HOF for too long. If your speaking from their point of view then I would be surprised as well.

The most tragic part of his career is that, unlike VC, he didnt have the Olympic/NCAA career to help his basketball legacy. For some reason its better to be a star in college than a promising phenom in the big leagues. The Olympic part is whats truly maddening tho, after his brilliant 03 campaign he was a member of what I consider to be the greatest FIBA team we have ever assembled in the 2K era (the 03 Tourney of Americas Team), he aggravated his back qualifying and was never quite the same.

SteveNash
03-19-2012, 07:46 PM
The same Joe Johnson who left a potential power so that he could flounder in Atlanta and put up meager stats, so long as he was known as the man he was fine with losing. JJ is the most overrated player of all time.

Tmac is rated perfectly IMO, the haters are cancelled out by the legion of fans he has, I admit it wont lead to a HOF birth, but the HOF is crap.

Joe saw Phoenix was fools gold, transformed the Hawks into a contender. I don't know what your argument does to put Tmac and Redd in a better light. Redd could have been with an elite team if he joined forces with LeBron.

Every team McGrady has left got better immediately following his departure. McGrady's ring chasing has been a bigger failure then his first round exits.


:facepalm: Maybe NOW Joe Johnson is better than T-Mac. But back in the early 2000s...no way. Only player that might have been better than T-Mac would've been Kobe...and that was even debatable.

Shaq was better.

Chronz
03-19-2012, 08:14 PM
Joe saw Phoenix was fools gold, transformed the Hawks into a contender. I don't know what your argument does to put Tmac and Redd in a better light. Redd could have been with an elite team if he joined forces with LeBron.

Every team McGrady has left got better immediately following his departure. McGrady's ring chasing has been a bigger failure then his first round exits.
Phx was winning 60+ without him, as little as that means to you, they were far closer to being contenders than the Hawks were with JJ. And JJ hasnt taken them this far, at least not in the fashion of a Tmac, to a lesser extent Prime Redd.

And Tmac has made every team hes been a part of better (pre-MF), what do I care about a different teams success? Im only worried about Tmac bringing out the best in his crew, not a bunch of players he didnt play with.

Swashcuff
03-19-2012, 09:18 PM
1. Too bad T-Mac at his best was a small sample of his ENTIRE career.

A small sample? McGrady's prime is one of the greatest ever. He was among the elite of the very elite at his position and it lasted multiple seasons.


2. Allen Iverson right now is pretty much the ONLY guy from late 90's -mid 2000's era that is clearly a HOF without the ring etc.

What about Steve Nash? What about Reggie Miller (who T-Mac was better than) what about Chris Webber? These are all men who are around top 10 at their position and top 100 players of all time.


3. T-Mac's whole career is less than Grant Hill, Vince Carter, Paul Pierce (EVEN WITHOUT THE RING), I'd even put Rashard Lewis into this conversation BARELY.

This is your opinion and honestly its a extremely misinformed one. Rashard Lewis in the conversation? Really dude? That's facepalm worthy.


4. Joe Johnson can make a better case than T-Mac. Played well as the 4th banana in PHX and played well as the MAN in ATL even getting his teams into the 2nd round.

This is the whole point where is the intellect? Where is the context? For God's sake WHERE IS THE COMMON SENSE.

You said it Joe Johnson was a FOURTH BANANA thus meaning he was a stacked team and when he went to the Eastern Conference he had a more stacked team than T-Mac had in any season in the East.

You can combine the positives of all T-Mac's teammates when he was a member of the Magic into one and create a giant super player without mystical basketball powers and that player would still lose in a game of one on one to Al Horford or Josh Smith that's how bad T-Mac's supporting cast was.

Seriously why don't you guys actually try to assess a situation in it's entirity before making an ignorant and rash claim that he wasn't any good because of his team's lack of success. Michael Jordan himself couldn't have made it very far with that roster in that system with that coaching so what could we have expected from T-Mac.

Swashcuff
03-19-2012, 09:20 PM
Joe saw Phoenix was fools gold, transformed the Hawks into a contender. I don't know what your argument does to put Tmac and Redd in a better light. Redd could have been with an elite team if he joined forces with LeBron.

Every team McGrady has left got better immediately following his departure. McGrady's ring chasing has been a bigger failure then his first round exits.



Shaq was better.

When was Atlanta a contender? :confused:

Did I miss something?

ManningToTyree
03-19-2012, 09:59 PM
People forget just how good he was. There was a time when people uttered his name along with Kobe in discussing top players in the game. He is absolutly a HoFer to me.

whitemamba33
03-19-2012, 10:26 PM
I'll keep this brief, because it's pretty clear to me that this isn't going to end with either of us changing our minds about the guy.


Multiple seasons of below 40%? You mean his 2 Microfracture years?
And what do you mean rarely praised?
Im not hiding anything, Im just showing you the bigger picture. When you account for his microscopic turnover rate, playmaking, along with individual usage/ppp, it gives you a complete picture of his efficiency. Going by FG% as the barometer is elementary stuff.

I find your entire turnover rate argument to be very arbitrary. It basically amounts to trying to equate an unimpressive field goal percentage with an impressive turnover rate...and there are really not enough numbers being thrown around for me to even begin to consider it reliable. If I cared I'd go into it, but like I said - it's not enough to change either of our minds.


Because Im basing that on the reality of the HOF. The guy who saved the game didnt even live to see his name enshrined, lots of guys waited forever to make it while inferior role players got a free ride. The HOF is a sham, and based on its illogical foundation, its pretty easy to see Tmac missing the HOF.

This comment kind of reveals to me that you are a little more on the fence about this subject than you will ever admit to. If you honestly believed he deserved to be in the hall of fame, you wouldn't be looking for excuses as to why he might not make it. I also find it a little strange that you use things like "low MVP ballot" and "AllNBA team" to argue your points, yet you are going to discredit the HOF because there are a few inconsistancies.


His statistical dominance and how he got the most out of trash was truly special, especially when you consider his prime came during an era with the toughest defensive rules and talent in place.

I do consider what he did to be truly special. If he had continued on the same trajectory in Houston we probably wouldn't even be having this conversation right now. We obviously have different feelings about his time in Houston...and I don't have a problem with that.

SteveNash
03-19-2012, 11:24 PM
Phx was winning 60+ without him, as little as that means to you, they were far closer to being contenders than the Hawks were with JJ. And JJ hasnt taken them this far, at least not in the fashion of a Tmac, to a lesser extent Prime Redd.

And Tmac has made every team hes been a part of better (pre-MF), what do I care about a different teams success? Im only worried about Tmac bringing out the best in his crew, not a bunch of players he didnt play with.

JJ was 2 things McGrady will never have. Leadership and heart.

Isn't it kind of weird how you never hear anyone say anything positive about T-Mac? But people love Joe and recognize he's a team first kind.

What team did McGrady make so much better?


When was Atlanta a contender? :confused:

Did I miss something?


When was Atlanta a contender? :confused:

Did I miss something?

Last year when they best the best center in NBA history (TM) and outplayed the Bulls.

Gram
03-19-2012, 11:52 PM
I think he will.

mRc08
03-20-2012, 12:23 AM
l say yes. He has pretty solid numbers, and in his prime one of the better players to ever play the game. He reached a level that not too many players reach in their career. He never got outa the first round, which he has to live with as a failure, but I would put a T-Mac in his prime on the NBA's top 50 list. Even though his prime was short, during that time he was great.

OA SLAY
03-20-2012, 12:39 AM
its very apperant who on this form has been watching ball for longer than 10years.
Any child who even dares to mention Joe Johnson in the same breath as TMac need to never speak.....just listen.

cutiepie80
03-20-2012, 12:48 AM
Absolutely not.

Not all his fault, his injuries crushed that dream. If he stayed healthy I feel he could have gotten a team to ATLEAST the finals with his skills, but alas.....injuries killed him.

Bruno
03-20-2012, 12:48 AM
he'll be there. just not in his first year of eligibility.

UnWantedTheory
03-20-2012, 12:54 AM
its very apperant who on this form has been watching ball for longer than 10years.
Any child who even dares to mention Joe Johnson in the same breath as TMac need to never speak.....just listen.

.

AsfanSince99
03-20-2012, 12:58 AM
It would do him good if he started to chase a championship now. Sign with the Thunder or Heat and he'll ride that into the HOF, otherwise, he won't get in.

STA_PLAR
03-20-2012, 01:20 AM
Joe Johnson and Michael Redd should never be uttered in the same sentence as TMAC. TMAC made players better especially in his Houston years. His numbers in the playoffs are ridiculous.

He led the rockets to a 22 game win streak without YAO.
He was the second best SG in the league for about 7-8 years.

He deserves it over VC. His one second round visit is not good enough to me.

LA_Raiders
03-20-2012, 01:25 AM
No, but might get in after a while.... Same for VC

Chronz
03-20-2012, 02:45 AM
I find your entire turnover rate argument to be very arbitrary.

Actually its the exact opposite of arbitrary, you cant account for the totality of a players efficiency without assessing it. Its simple, if your going to delve into his production then you have to consider alot more than just FG%.


It basically amounts to trying to equate an unimpressive field goal percentage with an impressive turnover rate...and there are really not enough numbers being thrown around for me to even begin to consider it reliable. If I cared I'd go into it, but like I said - it's not enough to change either of our minds.

What exactly are you questioning here? The integrity of the stats Im alluding to or the lack of stats being presented? If I cared enough I would post more myself but Im assuming someone bringing up quantifiable aspects of the game to be willing to care enough to look into it. If youd rather just ignore efficiency altogether and just focus on subjective aspects then thats fine. I dont need to change your opinion on his career, its when you enter the realm of statistics that I expect something.



This comment kind of reveals to me that you are a little more on the fence about this subject than you will ever admit to. If you honestly believed he deserved to be in the hall of fame, you wouldn't be looking for excuses as to why he might not make it. I also find it a little strange that you use things like "low MVP ballot" and "AllNBA team" to argue your points, yet you are going to discredit the HOF because there are a few inconsistancies.
This doesnt make sense to me, Im aware of the flaws within the HOF, its why I dont expect Tmac to make it. By their standards he hasnt done enough. By my standards he has. Thats all Im saying, not sure how much clearer I can make it.

Chronz
03-20-2012, 02:53 AM
JJ was 2 things McGrady will never have. Leadership and heart.

Isn't it kind of weird how you never hear anyone say anything positive about T-Mac? But people love Joe and recognize he's a team first kind.
Nonsense, in his heyday Tmac was praised moreso than I recall hearing from Iso-Joe. Coaches like George Karl tried to get their superstars to play more like (Declining) Tmac and be team first stars. They also recognized his superiority in the form of All-NBA selections, the media made their opinion known with higher MVP finishes as well. If JJ's "leadership/heart" were so influential then surely the man would have gotten some sort of recognition for it. Sadly his leadership makes about as much difference in this argument as citing Derek Fishers leadership and clutchness. Tmac was simply the better player in every fashion. Hawks would be contending with vintage Mac.


What team did McGrady make so much better?
When healthy, all of them. To a much larger degree than Bum Joe Johnson.

JJ_JKidd
03-20-2012, 05:33 AM
No.. He never managed to show his full potential because of them injuries. Besides, whats his contribution to the game besides that 13 something points in 30 something seconds. Too bad, injuries rob players and us fans as well (Grant Hill, Penny, TMac, Roy, Oden possibly? lol)

AnthonyTyrael
03-20-2012, 09:41 AM
No. I don't think he'd be deserving it. He had only a couple good years on the offensive end and nothing achieved besides, so no.

abe_froman
03-20-2012, 09:45 AM
it'll anger alot of people but he'll probably get in(say 60-70% chance),not 1st ballot but after while

thekmp211
03-20-2012, 10:45 AM
what team did tmac make better? every orlando team he dragged into the playoffs would have been racking up #1 picks for a decade. and that 21 game win streak in houston minus yao?

people forget about **** and then act like it didn't happen. just because you're too lazy to correctly quantify t-mac's abilities doesn't mean he didn't do things.

Swashcuff
03-20-2012, 11:42 AM
Its really comical how many so called NBA fans lack knowledge of the history of the game and its HOF. Do you guys know how many eligible multiple scoring titles winners aren't in the hall? NONE. Tracy McGrady is one of the greatest volume scorers the game has ever seen and is going to be in the HOF.

The fact that he's actually being compared to Michael Redd and Joe Johnson really shows how this discussion shouldn't even be had with certain NBA fans.

Swashcuff
03-20-2012, 11:46 AM
what team did tmac make better? every orlando team he dragged into the playoffs would have been racking up #1 picks for a decade. and that 21 game win streak in houston minus yao?

people forget about **** and then act like it didn't happen. just because you're too lazy to correctly quantify t-mac's abilities doesn't mean he didn't do things.

These guys have no understanding of basketball. One of them actually said Joe Johnson was a good 4th option and that made him better than McGrady as a result then credited him for the Hawks making it past the first round when he had more help than T-Mac ever had. Its a real shame that certain people call themselves fans of the game and they know nothing about it.

Place Joe Johnson and Michael Redd on any of those T-Mac teams and lets see how far they go. Despite never getting past the 1st round in his prime T-Mac was one of the best scorers (did so efficiently too) in post season history Redd nor Johnson could never get anywhere near that level of play.

Chronz
03-20-2012, 11:58 AM
Hes actually not in the Michael Redd camp, hes saying JJ is better than both Redd/Tmac. Hes hinting at a debate we had like a decade ago when I was in love with the guy.

Swashcuff
03-20-2012, 12:11 PM
Hes actually not in the Michael Redd camp, hes saying JJ is better than both Redd/Tmac. Hes hinting at a debate we had like a decade ago when I was in love with the guy.

That part of my gripe was actually directed to the poster who earlier compared both of their (Redd and T-Mac's) career numbers. Without actually trying to take an actual read into the situation.

PrettyBoyJ
03-20-2012, 12:21 PM
He's gonna be in the class of Bernard King.. Good player, talented scorer but won't get in

RCarlson85
03-20-2012, 12:32 PM
I don't see how he makes it into the HOF. He never had playoff success with any team he was on and he has been injured way too much. If he had been healthy and accumulated stats they way he did when he was healthy, he would have probably been a lock.

BradfordIsElite
03-20-2012, 03:10 PM
He was a hall of fame caliber player in his day, just didn't get the chance to accomplish as much as he should have due to injuries getting in the way.
I believe he deserves a look but probably unlikely he'll actually get in.
Definitely one of the best SG/SF's of all time, though. He's better than a number of players already in the hall.

alexander_37
03-20-2012, 03:12 PM
1. Too bad T-Mac at his best was a small sample of his ENTIRE career.

2. Allen Iverson right now is pretty much the ONLY guy from late 90's -mid 2000's era that is clearly a HOF without the ring etc.

3. T-Mac's whole career is less than Grant Hill, Vince Carter, Paul Pierce (EVEN WITHOUT THE RING), I'd even put Rashard Lewis into this conversation BARELY.

4. Joe Johnson can make a better case than T-Mac. Played well as the 4th banana in PHX and played well as the MAN in ATL even getting his teams into the 2nd round.

Wow KKK members would shake their heads at this amount of hate ....

alexander_37
03-20-2012, 03:14 PM
These guys have no understanding of basketball. One of them actually said Joe Johnson was a good 4th option and that made him better than McGrady as a result then credited him for the Hawks making it past the first round when he had more help than T-Mac ever had. Its a real shame that certain people call themselves fans of the game and they know nothing about it.

Place Joe Johnson and Michael Redd on any of those T-Mac teams and lets see how far they go. Despite never getting past the 1st round in his prime T-Mac was one of the best scorers (did so efficiently too) in post season history Redd nor Johnson could never get anywhere near that level of play.

Hell give T-mac Josh Smith AND Al Horford and that is an NBA finals team AT LEAST!

BradfordIsElite
03-20-2012, 03:14 PM
what team did tmac make better? every orlando team he dragged into the playoffs would have been racking up #1 picks for a decade. and that 21 game win streak in houston minus yao?

people forget about **** and then act like it didn't happen. just because you're too lazy to correctly quantify t-mac's abilities doesn't mean he didn't do things.

T-Mac made every team he played for better. It wasn't his fault the way certain things happened. Sure, he could've played better in a lot of those situations but overall not many players could stop him. He's one of the most dominating perimeter players we have ever seen and unfortunately injuries got in the way of him accomplishing many more things.

rhino17
03-20-2012, 03:31 PM
Reading through this thread, I'm pretty sure 80% of the people posting here never watched tmac prior to 2008.

You can argue either side, but many of the arguments here are senseless and show you are clearly reading over his stats and never actually watched this guy play or know anything about the situations he was in.

Crackadalic
03-20-2012, 04:02 PM
:facepalm::rolleyes::laugh2:

Those were the emotions I have after reading this whole thread

I don't even have to bring in advance metrics into the discussion to show how much better T-mac was then a lot of players not only in the last 10+ years but in history. I watch this guy at his best and he completely shitted on the competition.

Kobe is one of my all time favorite's and wouldnt sniff the impact T-mac had in his prime

Look at the teammates he had. There 2nd best was freakin Darrell Armstrong are you kidding me? Grant Hill was injured for the majority of his career there so he doesnt count

Even in his down years in Houston he was one of the best. I remember one series against the Jazz he had a injured arm and completely elevated his game from his season average. He did everything for the team from scoring passing rebounding. EVERYTHING. His teammates didnt do ****

There's players with no rings in the HOF. I don't look at just rings or playoff accomplishments for one to be in the HOF. I look at the body of work and what he can do to help give there team the best chance to win.

Injuries and bum teammates in orlando that don't deserve to be in the nba help and lowering his chances but you can bet T-mac by the numbers is HOF worthy.

Its just sad that his playoff and ring resume will probably never let him sniff it

SteveNash
03-20-2012, 07:57 PM
Nonsense, in his heyday Tmac was praised moreso than I recall hearing from Iso-Joe. Coaches like George Karl tried to get their superstars to play more like (Declining) Tmac and be team first stars. They also recognized his superiority in the form of All-NBA selections, the media made their opinion known with higher MVP finishes as well. If JJ's "leadership/heart" were so influential then surely the man would have gotten some sort of recognition for it. Sadly his leadership makes about as much difference in this argument as citing Derek Fishers leadership and clutchness. Tmac was simply the better player in every fashion. Hawks would be contending with vintage Mac.

When healthy, all of them. To a much larger degree than Bum Joe Johnson.

I'm talking about people that actually knew McGrady. You hear some outside sources, but not really from the inside. While everyone praises Joe.

McGrady, I will give you has more talent then Joe, maybe by a long shot. McGrady's problem was he was soft and not a hard worker. Joe Johnson did everything humanly possible to get the Hawks over the hump. Playing out of position, defending the best wing, doing everything possible on and off the court.

McGrady took his skills for granted, and when he decided to take the easy way, he was telling the world he'll never measure up to Joe Johnson.


Its really comical how many so called NBA fans lack knowledge of the history of the game and its HOF. Do you guys know how many eligible multiple scoring titles winners aren't in the hall? NONE. Tracy McGrady is one of the greatest volume scorers the game has ever seen and is going to be in the HOF.

The fact that he's actually being compared to Michael Redd and Joe Johnson really shows how this discussion shouldn't even be had with certain NBA fans.

Neil Johnston was a 3 time scoring champ and it took him 30 years to get in, Adrian Dantley was a 2 time scoring champ and it took him 16 years.

McGrady doesn't have the benefit of playing in the early days of the NBA like Johnston, nor the illustrious college career & Olympic gold medal like Dantley did.

willabeast77
03-20-2012, 08:59 PM
People are forgetting that it's the Basketball Hall of Fame, not the NBA Hall of Fame. McGrady will get in, eventually.

willabeast77
03-20-2012, 09:01 PM
Also what's with comparing McGrady to Joe Johnson. Joe Johnson is overrated and wasn't the player McGrady was. I doubt he'll be a future HOF'er.

Swashcuff
03-20-2012, 09:08 PM
Neil Johnston was a 3 time scoring champ and it took him 30 years to get in, Adrian Dantley was a 2 time scoring champ and it took him 16 years.

McGrady doesn't have the benefit of playing in the early days of the NBA like Johnston, nor the illustrious college career & Olympic gold medal like Dantley did.

And neither Dantley nor Johnston had the privilege of being as good of a player as Tracy McGrady was at his best.

Chronz
03-20-2012, 09:09 PM
I'm talking about people that actually knew McGrady. You hear some outside sources, but not really from the inside. While everyone praises Joe.

McGrady, I will give you has more talent then Joe, maybe by a long shot. McGrady's problem was he was soft and not a hard worker. Joe Johnson did everything humanly possible to get the Hawks over the hump. Playing out of position, defending the best wing, doing everything possible on and off the court.

McGrady took his skills for granted, and when he decided to take the easy way, he was telling the world he'll never measure up to Joe Johnson.

Tmac is held to a higher standard because of his talent, thats the only criticism Tmac had. This may speak to JJ willing to work harder but its an irrelevant point when discussing a players ability/impact on the game.

All that said, Tmac did EVERYTHING for Orlando, he played out of position to a greater degree than JJ. JJ playing the PG is nothing compared to Tmac playing Center and anchoring his teams zone on occasion, defending a range of positions 1-4, Tmac did more to will his team to victory than JJ .

Chronz
03-20-2012, 09:12 PM
People are forgetting that it's the Basketball Hall of Fame, not the NBA Hall of Fame. McGrady will get in, eventually.
That doesnt help him tho, he doesnt have anything outside the NBA. According to the HOF, its better to be a great collegiate playing with other kids but being a promising phenom among grown men is seen as nothing major.

Bigdaddyburch
03-20-2012, 09:13 PM
No sorry he is not.

Beantownsboss
03-20-2012, 09:23 PM
Nooooooooooooo!

KnicksorBust
03-20-2012, 09:27 PM
what team did tmac make better? every orlando team he dragged into the playoffs would have been racking up #1 picks for a decade. and that 21 game win streak in houston minus yao?

people forget about **** and then act like it didn't happen. just because you're too lazy to correctly quantify t-mac's abilities doesn't mean he didn't do things.

Nice post. I couldn't help but back you up.

In 2001 Tracy McGrady his breakout season as his scoring average rose from 15.4 ppg to 26.8ppg while averaging 4.6apg and 7.5 rpg. Let's take a quick look at his teammates on that Orlando Magic team. These are the players with the most minutes played on the team (excluding T-Mac):
Darrell Armstrong
Bo Outlaw
Mike Miller
John Amaechi
Pat Garrity
Michael Doleac
Monty Williams
and Don Reid
The record of that flaming pile of crap? 43-39. Imagine if Grant Hill had been healthy for more than 4 games...In the playoffs, McGrady averages 34-7-8 with a TS% of 48.3% in a losing effort to the the Milwaukee Bucks led by a trio of Ray Allen, Glenn Robinson, Sam Cassell.


In 2002, McGrady continues to excel but is still saddled with little to no help
These are the players with the most minutes played on the team (excluding T-Mac):
Darrell Armstrong
(A way past his prime 36 year old) Horace Grant
Pat Garrity
Mike Miller
Troy Hudson
Monty Williams
Patrick Ewing's corpse playing less than 14mpg
and Don Reid
With no other teammate playing even close to an all-star level... the Magic finish 44-38. McGrady averages 31-6-5 with a TS% of 55.3% in a losing effort to the Hornets.

In 2003, McGrady has a regular season that is immortal in the eyes of many. He was first in the NBA in PER, Usage, Offensive Win Shares, 3rd in overall win shares, and his turnover percentage was 6th. Considering he handled the ball a lot more frequently and created a lot more assists than anyone ahead of him in the top 5 (purely shooters like Peja and Reggie), this is a remarkable statistic that gets overloooked. His advance statistics that season compare well with Jordan's best years. Yet let's take a look and see if the Magic FO finally got him some help... Most minutes played by anyone not named McGrady:

Darrell Armstrong
Pat Garrity
Mike Miller (their 3rd best player was injured for 32 games)
Shawn Kemp (33 year old Kemp was averaging a robust 7-6 on 41.8% fg... 46.8% ts)
Jaqcue Vaughn
Andrew DeClercq
Jeryl Sasser actually played over 1,000 minutes.

Names of players that actually STARTED at least one game for them that season: Pat Burke (8), Steven Hunter (5), Jeryl Sasser (4), Olumide Oyedeji (3), Chris Whitney (1) , Ryan Humphrey (1)

Besides McGrady, Pat Garrity was the only played that season to average over 10ppg and start at least 40 games for the Magic that season. 10.7 ppg in 53 starts. Considering the injuries to Grant Hill (still) and Mike Milller, this is the ugliest roster we've seen yet. Their record: 42-40. You think if you take McGrady off that team they are even going to sniff 25 wins? In the playoffs, McGrady averaged 32-7-5 with a TS% of 56.1%(!) as they lost in 7 games to the Pistons team that we are all familiar with... Rip, Chauncey, Ben Wallace, Prince, etc. How he could take that series to 7 games is beyond me.

In 2004, they stunk. McGrady played in 67 games and along with some familiar names they added a past his prime Juwan Howard, a young Drew Gooden, other playes like Lue, Bogans, Stevenson. They went 21-61 and for the first time were in the lottery in a McGrady season. Then the Magic decided to trade McGrady to the Rockets for Steve Francis. Magically their record the next season of 2005 was 36-46. Good thing they got rid of McGrady! No. The rosters between those two seasons were drastically different. They got the #1 overall pick in the draft and traded a future 1st to get the 20th player selected. They went from a lineup Juwan Howard/McGrady/Gooden/Lue/Bogans etc. to Francis / Dwight Howard / Grant Hill (finally healthy) / Hedo Turkoglu / Jameer Nelson. It's a completely different roster. Steve Francis didn't take Keith Bogans to 36 wins. That's for damn sure. Even after the roster turnover, they still didn't become a winning franchise again until 2008, four years AFTER trading McGrady.

NY007
03-20-2012, 09:46 PM
No way, never once has did he win a playoff series and was never the best player in the game.

Ballah0liC1
03-20-2012, 09:48 PM
^^ totally agree, I actually wrote something very similiar a couple years and I got responses saying that he should have won with grant,ewing and kemp

NY007
03-20-2012, 09:49 PM
To me, if you put Mcgrady in the hall of fame then you are shaming the hall.

Ballah0liC1
03-20-2012, 09:49 PM
No way, never once has did he win a playoff series and was never the best player in the game.

since when does only the best player in the league go to HOF?

thekmp211
03-20-2012, 09:53 PM
To me, if you put Mcgrady in the hall of fame then you are shaming the hall.

you understand basketball is a team sport, right?

BigCityofDreams
03-20-2012, 10:04 PM
To me, if you put Mcgrady in the hall of fame then you are shaming the hall.

It wouldn't shame the hall if he got in but I agree he's not a HOF.

Swashcuff
03-20-2012, 10:06 PM
To me, if you put Mcgrady in the hall of fame then you are shaming the hall.

:laugh2:

NY007
03-20-2012, 10:28 PM
Mcgrady is the most over rated player when people speak of him, he's not HOF worthy at all. Laugh all you want, I grew up watching him. Not HOF worthy at all

NY007
03-20-2012, 10:30 PM
you understand basketball is a team sport, right?

No **** smart ***, there's also a thing thats called leadership and never once did he lead his teams past the first round.

thekmp211
03-20-2012, 10:30 PM
Mcgrady is the most over rated player when people speak of him, he's not HOF worthy at all. Laugh all you want, I grew up watching him. Not HOF worthy at all

how bout one reason

NY007
03-20-2012, 10:31 PM
since when does only the best player in the league go to HOF?

Point is I don't ever recall him being a top 3 player in the league.. how do you put someone like that in the HOF?

In fact he wasn't even ever a top 5 player in the league. Top 10 maybe, but how does he make the HOF??

Chronz
03-20-2012, 10:31 PM
No **** smart ***, there's also a thing thats called leadership and never once did he lead his teams past the first round.
You do realize its a team game right?

NY007
03-20-2012, 10:36 PM
You do realize its a team game right?

Obviously your a huge fan of Mcgrady so I'm not going to even get into it, but he was never even a top 5 player in the game while he played.

BigCityofDreams
03-20-2012, 10:39 PM
^^^^^Not sure about that. We'll have to list the top players in the league during his peaks years

Chronz
03-20-2012, 10:46 PM
Obviously your a huge fan of Mcgrady so I'm not going to even get into it, but he was never even a top 5 player in the game while he played.
So it went from not being the best, to never being top 3, to now not even top 5. Tomorrow it will be that he was barely an MVP candidate, barely an All-League player, barely an All-Star. Obviously you dont have an argument to make so there is nothing to get into.

dnl123
03-20-2012, 10:51 PM
I was the a huge T-Mac fan in his prime, but I can't say he deserves the HOF. Numbers aren't quite there and he was too often injured even when he was playing well. He was a delight to watch though in his younger days!

alexander_37
03-20-2012, 11:48 PM
Nice post. I couldn't help but back you up.

In 2001 Tracy McGrady his breakout season as his scoring average rose from 15.4 ppg to 26.8ppg while averaging 4.6apg and 7.5 rpg. Let's take a quick look at his teammates on that Orlando Magic team. These are the players with the most minutes played on the team (excluding T-Mac):
Darrell Armstrong
Bo Outlaw
Mike Miller
John Amaechi
Pat Garrity
Michael Doleac
Monty Williams
and Don Reid
The record of that flaming pile of crap? 43-39. Imagine if Grant Hill had been healthy for more than 4 games...In the playoffs, McGrady averages 34-7-8 with a TS% of 48.3% in a losing effort to the the Milwaukee Bucks led by a trio of Ray Allen, Glenn Robinson, Sam Cassell.


In 2002, McGrady continues to excel but is still saddled with little to no help
These are the players with the most minutes played on the team (excluding T-Mac):
Darrell Armstrong
(A way past his prime 36 year old) Horace Grant
Pat Garrity
Mike Miller
Troy Hudson
Monty Williams
Patrick Ewing's corpse playing less than 14mpg
and Don Reid
With no other teammate playing even close to an all-star level... the Magic finish 44-38. McGrady averages 31-6-5 with a TS% of 55.3% in a losing effort to the Hornets.

In 2003, McGrady has a regular season that is immortal in the eyes of many. He was first in the NBA in PER, Usage, Offensive Win Shares, 3rd in overall win shares, and his turnover percentage was 6th. Considering he handled the ball a lot more frequently and created a lot more assists than anyone ahead of him in the top 5 (purely shooters like Peja and Reggie), this is a remarkable statistic that gets overloooked. His advance statistics that season compare well with Jordan's best years. Yet let's take a look and see if the Magic FO finally got him some help... Most minutes played by anyone not named McGrady:

Darrell Armstrong
Pat Garrity
Mike Miller (their 3rd best player was injured for 32 games)
Shawn Kemp (33 year old Kemp was averaging a robust 7-6 on 41.8% fg... 46.8% ts)
Jaqcue Vaughn
Andrew DeClercq
Jeryl Sasser actually played over 1,000 minutes.

Names of players that actually STARTED at least one game for them that season: Pat Burke (8), Steven Hunter (5), Jeryl Sasser (4), Olumide Oyedeji (3), Chris Whitney (1) , Ryan Humphrey (1)

Besides McGrady, Pat Garrity was the only played that season to average over 10ppg and start at least 40 games for the Magic that season. 10.7 ppg in 53 starts. Considering the injuries to Grant Hill (still) and Mike Milller, this is the ugliest roster we've seen yet. Their record: 42-40. You think if you take McGrady off that team they are even going to sniff 25 wins? In the playoffs, McGrady averaged 32-7-5 with a TS% of 56.1%(!) as they lost in 7 games to the Pistons team that we are all familiar with... Rip, Chauncey, Ben Wallace, Prince, etc. How he could take that series to 7 games is beyond me.

In 2004, they stunk. McGrady played in 67 games and along with some familiar names they added a past his prime Juwan Howard, a young Drew Gooden, other playes like Lue, Bogans, Stevenson. They went 21-61 and for the first time were in the lottery in a McGrady season. Then the Magic decided to trade McGrady to the Rockets for Steve Francis. Magically their record the next season of 2005 was 36-46. Good thing they got rid of McGrady! No. The rosters between those two seasons were drastically different. They got the #1 overall pick in the draft and traded a future 1st to get the 20th player selected. They went from a lineup Juwan Howard/McGrady/Gooden/Lue/Bogans etc. to Francis / Dwight Howard / Grant Hill (finally healthy) / Hedo Turkoglu / Jameer Nelson. It's a completely different roster. Steve Francis didn't take Keith Bogans to 36 wins. That's for damn sure. Even after the roster turnover, they still didn't become a winning franchise again until 2008, four years AFTER trading McGrady.

Probably one of the brst posts I have ever seen on PSD. If anyone reads that and thinks he is "shaming" the hall or even DOUBTS he should be in the hall they are out of their ****ing mind.

alexander_37
03-20-2012, 11:49 PM
Mcgrady is the most over rated player when people speak of him, he's not HOF worthy at all. Laugh all you want, I grew up watching him. Not HOF worthy at all

Considering your avatar is Melo and Eli is in your sig you are one to talk about overrated players ....

TmacBryant
03-21-2012, 12:06 AM
Considering your avatar is Melo and Eli is in your sig you are one to talk about overrated players ....

If TMAC wasn't injured all the time I would say yes.
Is he good enough to be HOF? Hell yes, but should he be in it? probably not.

Guy had terrible teams anyways....

ManRam
03-21-2012, 12:17 AM
What kind of impact did he have on his team in his prime?

41-41 -Orlando record the year BEFORE he arrived.
43-39 -Orlando record in the first year he was on the team.
44-38 -Orlando record in the second year he was on the team.
42-40 -Orlando record in the third year he was on the team.
21-61 -Orlando record in the fourth and final year he was on the team.


That's such an unfair argument. If you watched every game of those Magic seasons like I was (granted, I was younger) it was obvious he was all we had going for us. He was not the reason we got worse. He was playing as hard as he could every single second he was on the court. He was diving after loose balls, going hard to the rim, and sacrificing his body every night for some bad teams...especially that last year. He did all he could, and really abused his body doing so. It was refreshing to see such a great player play so hard, even despite being on an awful team.

Just look at the roster on that 2003-2004 team. It was awful...and he was still great. He wasn't ever a detriment. A lot of shots, but there wasn't a single other offensive threat on that team. Not one at all.

We lost like our entire team between his second to last season and his last one (the huge drop). Out went Miller, Garrity, Hill, Kemp, Armstrong, Grant etc. That team was gutted.

Also, it's hard to have a ton of success when 1/3rd of your cap is invested in Grant Hill...


You can point out a lot of flaws in his HOF candidacy, but team success in Orlando isn't one of them.


He led some downright PUTRID teams to the playoffs in Orlando. Talk about a one-man team some of those years. His best sidekick through it all? Darrell ****ing Armstrong :laugh2:

JordansBulls
03-21-2012, 12:19 AM
If players who only made 2 allstar teams can make the hall of fame and never finished top 10 in MVP voting, I don't see why a 7x allstar wouldn't who finished 3rd in MVP voting.

tredigs
03-21-2012, 12:31 AM
If players who only made 2 allstar teams can make the hall of fame and never finished top 10 in MVP voting, I don't see why a 7x allstar wouldn't who finished 3rd in MVP voting.

The best part about your legacy arguments are that icons such as Gilbert Arenas (3x All-Star, top 10 in MVP voting) and Carlos Boozer (2x All-Star and top 10 in MVP voting) have Dennis Rodman one upped.

$GangGr33n$
03-21-2012, 12:35 AM
T Mac has the 4 most points (average) in nba HISTORY! how is it his fault he didnt make it out the 1st round when healthy! of course he should be in the HOF based on his prime but the last 4-5 years really diminished that and obviously made people forget how amazingly dominant he was

alexander_37
03-21-2012, 12:39 AM
If TMAC wasn't injured all the time I would say yes.
Is he good enough to be HOF? Hell yes, but should he be in it? probably not.

Guy had terrible teams anyways....

So you just contradicted yourself big time....

mavwar53
03-21-2012, 12:46 AM
No way, he was good but I wouldn't consider the guy in my top 100 maybe even 150 to 200

Gideon
03-21-2012, 01:54 AM
In my opinion no. Maybe I'm a bitter Knicks fan who felt we gave up too much for him for nothing, but honestly if you really look at his numbers he had 4 or 5 really good years and maybe one or to more where he put up big numbers, but with poor percentages. Just not enough to be considered a Hall of Famer, but I'm old school where we believe you have to have had an impact over your whole career. If it were me, it would be a lot harder for players to be in the Hall of Fame.

Chronz
03-21-2012, 02:32 AM
In my opinion no. Maybe I'm a bitter Knicks fan who felt we gave up too much for him for nothing, but honestly if you really look at his numbers he had 4 or 5 really good years and maybe one or to more where he put up big numbers, but with poor percentages. Just not enough to be considered a Hall of Famer, but I'm old school where we believe you have to have had an impact over your whole career. If it were me, it would be a lot harder for players to be in the Hall of Fame.
First off, we can agree on that last bit. I would be up for revising the HOF and setting the bar above Tmac.

Why would you be spiteful if Tmacs expiring contract aided in creating cap space for you?

And his efficiency in his prime was absurd so dont get into the stats.

PurpleJesus
03-21-2012, 02:37 AM
absolutely a HOFer. He dominated in his prime. Give me a dominant player for a couple years, over a good player for multiple years any day of the week. The HOF in any sport is about dominance. I think he gets in late though, cause his dominance did not span a long period of time. The first ballot HOFers, are the guys who dominated for long periods of time...Tracy did not do that, but he was a dominant player, so he gets in.

NY007
03-21-2012, 04:21 PM
Considering your avatar is Melo and Eli is in your sig you are one to talk about overrated players ....

What does that have anything to do with it, I'm a giants and Knicks fan and those are my favorite players. Btw last time I checked Eli is a 2 time sb MVP.

NY007
03-21-2012, 04:26 PM
You do realize its a team game right?

Carter, AI, Kobe, Shaq, Tim Duncan just off the top of my head. I'm sure I can name others, btw there's a reason why he played for so many teams.. Yea he put up numbers but didn't win.

NY007
03-21-2012, 04:29 PM
Jason Kidd is another

Swashcuff
03-21-2012, 04:30 PM
No way, he was good but I wouldn't consider the guy in my top 100 maybe even 150 to 200

That's because you don't know the history of the NBA.

Swashcuff
03-21-2012, 04:36 PM
Carter, AI, Kobe, Shaq, Tim Duncan just off the top of my head. I'm sure I can name others, btw there's a reason why he played for so many teams.. Yea he put up numbers but didn't win.

I am the biggest A.I. fan on this site and even I would admit that Iverson would not have done jack sh** with most of the supporting casts that McGrady had.

Just imagine if Kobe's 2nd best player for the majority of his prime was Smush Parker (who was better than most of McGrady's 2nd options) how many times he would have gotten out of the first round.

McGrady played for so many teams because he struggled to remain healthy no because he was not a good player or he didn't win.

Chronz
03-21-2012, 04:44 PM
Carter, AI, Kobe, Shaq, Tim Duncan just off the top of my head.
What is this a list of?
Off the top of my head only Duncan and Shaq were clearly better throughout Mac prime.


I'm sure I can name others, btw there's a reason why he played for so many teams..
Yea because he left them


Yea he put up numbers but didn't win.
You do realize its a team game right.

Hawkeye15
03-21-2012, 04:53 PM
wow, McGrady's dominance before his injuries is apparently lost on many of you. I have been to the HOF. There are some very questionable players in there, many of which McGrady was far better than. Of course he will be in the HOF.

Hawkeye15
03-21-2012, 04:55 PM
I will say this. Those who were whining about Reggie Miller not getting in should realize McGrady was a much better player. If you want Miller in, McGrady is a shoe-in.

aztr0
03-21-2012, 04:58 PM
No, he's not.

tbomlad
03-21-2012, 05:01 PM
No. He was good and borderline great but I think people often confuse flashy highlight reel players with special.

WTF?!! He was great but not long enough. Injuries curtailed his chance so the answer is no, he does not belong in the HOF.

ahigbee
03-21-2012, 05:06 PM
Its really comical how many so called NBA fans lack knowledge of the history of the game and its HOF. Do you guys know how many eligible multiple scoring titles winners aren't in the hall? NONE. Tracy McGrady is one of the greatest volume scorers the game has ever seen and is going to be in the HOF.

The fact that he's actually being compared to Michael Redd and Joe Johnson really shows how this discussion shouldn't even be had with certain NBA fans.

Maybe you should read posts completely before you start knocking another persons NBA knowledge. I never said Michael Redd and Tracy McGrady are the same player. SOmeone earlier said his numbers alone put him in the HOF. My post merely said a person like Michael Redd (Clearly not even close to HOF) has Stats close to the career stats of Tracy McGrady. You cant ONLY put someone in the hall for numbers. Championships matter, wins matter. When a player can only get his team in playoffs and not get them anywhere, that should matter.

championships
03-21-2012, 05:21 PM
Nope. For reasons others have already stated.

SteveNash
03-21-2012, 05:33 PM
And neither Dantley nor Johnston had the privilege of being as good of a player as Tracy McGrady was at his best.

McGrady was never a top 10 type player, he had one fluke year at best. You don't have to play what if games with Dantley and Johnston.


Tmac is held to a higher standard because of his talent, thats the only criticism Tmac had. This may speak to JJ willing to work harder but its an irrelevant point when discussing a players ability/impact on the game.

All that said, Tmac did EVERYTHING for Orlando, he played out of position to a greater degree than JJ. JJ playing the PG is nothing compared to Tmac playing Center and anchoring his teams zone on occasion, defending a range of positions 1-4, Tmac did more to will his team to victory than JJ .

Hard work rubs off on teammates and does matter when it comes to getting into the HoF.

McGrady if he did was doing very limited minutes at center with Orlando. JJ was asked to play out of position night in/night out.


That's such an unfair argument. If you watched every game of those Magic seasons like I was (granted, I was younger) it was obvious he was all we had going for us. He was not the reason we got worse. He was playing as hard as he could every single second he was on the court. He was diving after loose balls, going hard to the rim, and sacrificing his body every night for some bad teams...especially that last year. He did all he could, and really abused his body doing so. It was refreshing to see such a great player play so hard, even despite being on an awful team.

Just look at the roster on that 2003-2004 team. It was awful...and he was still great. He wasn't ever a detriment. A lot of shots, but there wasn't a single other offensive threat on that team. Not one at all.

We lost like our entire team between his second to last season and his last one (the huge drop). Out went Miller, Garrity, Hill, Kemp, Armstrong, Grant etc. That team was gutted.

Also, it's hard to have a ton of success when 1/3rd of your cap is invested in Grant Hill...


You can point out a lot of flaws in his HOF candidacy, but team success in Orlando isn't one of them.


He led some downright PUTRID teams to the playoffs in Orlando. Talk about a one-man team some of those years. His best sidekick through it all? Darrell ****ing Armstrong :laugh2:

Go rewatch game 7 against Detroit when McGrady finally got out of the first round. The guy was so putrid in every way imaginable.


I am the biggest A.I. fan on this site and even I would admit that Iverson would not have done jack sh** with most of the supporting casts that McGrady had.

Just imagine if Kobe's 2nd best player for the majority of his prime was Smush Parker (who was better than most of McGrady's 2nd options) how many times he would have gotten out of the first round.

McGrady played for so many teams because he struggled to remain healthy no because he was not a good player or he didn't win.

McGrady could have had better teammates in Toronto, he left it for fame and fortune in Orlando and got what he deserved.

Could have stayed in Orlando, took the easy way out again. Tracy brought it on himself.

Redskins10
03-21-2012, 05:53 PM
Yes he will.

NY007
03-21-2012, 06:26 PM
What is this a list of?
Off the top of my head only Duncan and Shaq were clearly better throughout Mac prime.


Yea because he left them


You do realize its a team game right.

You realize you play to win the game right?

NY007
03-21-2012, 06:28 PM
What is this a list of?
Off the top of my head only Duncan and Shaq were clearly better throughout Mac prime.


Yea because he left them


You do realize its a team game right.

Players that were better then Mcgrady

NY007
03-21-2012, 06:32 PM
I will say this. Those who were whining about Reggie Miller not getting in should realize McGrady was a much better player. If you want Miller in, McGrady is a shoe-in.

Did you watch Reggie Miller play? Cmon the guy is the best 3 point shooter of all time and incredibly clutch and I hated him.

Swashcuff
03-21-2012, 06:34 PM
Did you watch Reggie Miller play? Cmon the guy is the best 3 point shooter of all time and incredibly clutch and I hated him.

He's also one of the most overrated players of all time. Again as great as he was switch roles how successful do you think he'd be in McGrady's shoes and vice versa?

Swashcuff
03-21-2012, 06:39 PM
Maybe you should read posts completely before you start knocking another persons NBA knowledge. I never said Michael Redd and Tracy McGrady are the same player. SOmeone earlier said his numbers alone put him in the HOF. My post merely said a person like Michael Redd (Clearly not even close to HOF) has Stats close to the career stats of Tracy McGrady. You cant ONLY put someone in the hall for numbers. Championships matter, wins matter. When a player can only get his team in playoffs and not get them anywhere, that should matter.

Problem is anyone who subscribes to a comparison of Tracy McGrady and Michael Redd statistical prowess as their reason as to why T-Mac doesn't deserve to be in the hall knows NOTHING about stats.

Its not about just stats with T-Mac its about how good of a player he was from every standpoint. You can't win Championships or even have strong post season runs if you're the only player that's a legit starting calibre player on your team. KG is a top 5 PF and arguably a top 20 player of all time and even he in his prime couldn't make some post seasons. Hell Kareem Abdul Jabbar once missed the post season in his PRIME.

Like Chronz has said to you people over and over and over this is a team game and unless you have the support there is no way you're going to be successful. Its as simple as that.

Swashcuff
03-21-2012, 06:47 PM
McGrady was never a top 10 type player, he had one fluke year at best. You don't have to play what if games with Dantley and Johnston.

This is your opinion. McGrady had a fluke season. Really anyone who resorts to saying that player had a fluke season as their argument really shows that they have no other case but to make up utter foolishness.

Hard work rubs off on teammates and does matter when it comes to getting into the HoF.


McGrady could have had better teammates in Toronto, he left it for fame and fortune in Orlando and got what he deserved.

:confused:

Damn near every NBA Superstar would do the very same. What the hell are you talking about? I guess Magic Johnson got what he deserved too right because he wanted to play for the Lakers and no one else? How about Kobe Bryant he's getting what he deserved right. You guys with these baseless logics really make me wonder sometimes. Do you read what you're saying? This is a business who wouldn't want an opportunity to better themselves? You would do the very same.


Could have stayed in Orlando, took the easy way out again. Tracy brought it on himself.

Took the easy way out after he toiled night in and night out for that team gave his blood sweat and tears only for their FO to muck it up and never even attempt to give their franchise player the type of support he needed.

Dude you are a clear McGrady hater and you're just stooping to levels that only show exactly how silly you're being. None of what you're saying has any context or logic and you're just hating on a man without any reason whatsoever. :pity:

Actually make an argument with something of substance outside of fluke seasons and what these organizations could have done after they didn't do it for Carter nor Bosh and now the Magic isn't doing it for Howard but I guess you own a crystal ball so you could have seen the future. :rolleyes:

Hawkeye15
03-21-2012, 07:50 PM
Did you watch Reggie Miller play? Cmon the guy is the best 3 point shooter of all time and incredibly clutch and I hated him.

Miller is totally and completely one dimensional. He was overrated, and I can't take a Knicks fans opinion of him seriously, you will have to forgive me. I don't mean that as a slight, but he killed you guys in a few playoffs series, so your opinion is going to be skewed.

I am 36. I have seen more players play then 80% of this site.

McGrady had 6 seasons better than anything Reggie Miller put up, and those are easy ones. He had another 3 that were AT LEAST equal. Miller was a shooter. Absolutely nothing else. Putrid defender, rebounder, and passer. He literally reminds me of a better Kevin Martin. Yet so many claim how great he was. My point is, if everyone is crying about him not getting in 1st ballot, and expect him there, you better believe McGrady belongs.

Here is my question for you. Did you watch McGrady play from 00-07'?

Btw, Miller is not even remotely close to the best 3 pt shooter of all time.

http://www.nba.com/statistics/default_all_time_leaders/AllTimeLeadersFG3PQuery.html?topic=4&stat=6

mdm692
03-21-2012, 08:12 PM
This is your opinion. McGrady had a fluke season. Really anyone who resorts to saying that player had a fluke season as their argument really shows that they have no other case but to make up utter foolishness.

Hard work rubs off on teammates and does matter when it comes to getting into the HoF.



:confused:

Damn near every NBA Superstar would do the very same. What the hell are you talking about? I guess Magic Johnson got what he deserved too right because he wanted to play for the Lakers and no one else? How about Kobe Bryant he's getting what he deserved right. You guys with these baseless logics really make me wonder sometimes. Do you read what you're saying? This is a business who wouldn't want an opportunity to better themselves? You would do the very same.



Took the easy way out after he toiled night in and night out for that team gave his blood sweat and tears only for their FO to muck it up and never even attempt to give their franchise player the type of support he needed.

Dude you are a clear McGrady hater and you're just stooping to levels that only show exactly how silly you're being. None of what you're saying has any context or logic and you're just hating on a man without any reason whatsoever. :pity:

Actually make an argument with something of substance outside of fluke seasons and what these organizations could have done after they didn't do it for Carter nor Bosh and now the Magic isn't doing it for Howard but I guess you own a crystal ball so you could have seen the future. :rolleyes:

Bro dont try to convince him its useless. This is the same guy that said nash was only good because of D'antoni's system:facepalm:

thekmp211
03-21-2012, 08:15 PM
Miller is totally and completely one dimensional. He was overrated, and I can't take a Knicks fans opinion of him seriously, you will have to forgive me. I don't mean that as a slight, but he killed you guys in a few playoffs series, so your opinion is going to be skewed.

I am 36. I have seen more players play then 80% of this site.

McGrady had 6 seasons better than anything Reggie Miller put up, and those are easy ones. He had another 3 that were AT LEAST equal. Miller was a shooter. Absolutely nothing else. Putrid defender, rebounder, and passer. He literally reminds me of a better Kevin Martin. Yet so many claim how great he was. My point is, if everyone is crying about him not getting in 1st ballot, and expect him there, you better believe McGrady belongs.

Here is my question for you. Did you watch McGrady play from 00-07'?

Btw, Miller is not even remotely close to the best 3 pt shooter of all time.

http://www.nba.com/statistics/default_all_time_leaders/AllTimeLeadersFG3PQuery.html?topic=4&stat=6


this is the thing people can't wrap their heads around. they are remarkably similar players. martin probably has a more complete offensive game to be honest, but the results of his career and his injury history would make most people laugh at the notion. it just goes to show what being durable and playing for a solid franchise can do to how people look at you.

it's not like mcgrady had one or two good seasons. he had 5 elite seasons, and 8 seasons that (based on existing members) don't disqualify him from HoF contention. the rest, well that's how it pans out for some guys. for people who enjoyed the entirety of his career, he is one of the first 5-10 guys you think of when you think of the best of his generation. i guess it's hard to quantify that if you don't remember him before the back and knees gave out.

ManRam
03-21-2012, 08:53 PM
Go rewatch game 7 against Detroit when McGrady finally got out of the first round. The guy was so putrid in every way imaginable.


Could have stayed in Orlando, took the easy way out again. Tracy brought it on himself.

OK. So one game in Orlando is all that matters in terms of that Orlando legacy?

Cool logic.

Look at the starting 5 that game! Armstrong, McGrady, Gircek, Gooden, Garrity :laugh: Top bench players: Jacque Vaughn and Chris Whitney :laugh2:

He carried that squad to a game 7 against basically the same squad that the Pistons won a championship with.

Yeah, he had a bad game. But let's not act like he's the only one to do so.

I can't blame him for a lack of success in Orlando. If you want to do it in Houston, go ahead. But in Orlando, I'm not gonna blame him for not winning with a cast that basically no one in the league at that time could have done any better with.

And the last part also shows you aren't quite thinking straight. He and the front office disagreed about who to draft with the #1 overall pick and where to go. He wanted the more NBA ready guy in Okafor, and the franchise didn't. He then got traded. So, it's not like he really "could have just stayed in Orlando". And he wasn't "taking the easy way out". The club chose to rebuild, so they took Howard (a relative project) and sent their pricey super star packing to get the rebuilding process going.

alexander_37
03-21-2012, 10:42 PM
Maybe you should read posts completely before you start knocking another persons NBA knowledge. I never said Michael Redd and Tracy McGrady are the same player. SOmeone earlier said his numbers alone put him in the HOF. My post merely said a person like Michael Redd (Clearly not even close to HOF) has Stats close to the career stats of Tracy McGrady. You cant ONLY put someone in the hall for numbers. Championships matter, wins matter. When a player can only get his team in playoffs and not get them anywhere, that should matter.

Mcgrady has almost double the points, quadruple the assists, double the steals, 12x the blocks ....

T-Mac is a sure fire hall of famer stop hating so hard man ..

How can a top 10 SG of all time not make the hall of fame.

Swashcuff
03-21-2012, 10:51 PM
hearing the name Chris Whitney reminds me of my younger days when all we had was dial up internet and one ESPN :laugh2: Wow where did the years go, I wonder what he's up to now.

Chronz
03-21-2012, 10:58 PM
Hard work rubs off on teammates and does matter when it comes to getting into the HoF.

McGrady if he did was doing very limited minutes at center with Orlando. JJ was asked to play out of position night in/night out
Im not convinced any intangible residual effect it may have had on his teammates offsets Tmacs superior game.
So which players did JJ make better with his work ethic?

Running the point unsuccessfully really impresses you more than being the games 2nd most versatile defender who carries a bigger load on both ends? We will have to agree to disagree on that one.

Swashcuff
03-21-2012, 11:00 PM
Read through this entire thread and not a single poster that says McGrady doesn't deserve to be in the HOF even attempted to ascertain the real reason as to why that was the case. No one has even made an attempt to break down his supporting casts throughout his prime/healthier years. All everyone is doing is making a blanket statement without even attempting to apply context to their argument and use circumstantial evidence to back their claim.

Want to know why he's going to make it to the Hall? Because unlike you guys the voters will actually take the extenuating circumstances into consideration and realize that his failures in the post season actually wasn't as a result of the man McGrady was (as he still continued his high level of play in the post season) but because of the rosters he had the misfortune of being a part of.

I dare anyone saying McGrady doesn't deserve to be in the hall to reply to this post and actually attempt to address the points that I made.

Ladies Man
03-21-2012, 11:08 PM
It is a very tough decision... But I would say no. Never got past the first round, then he got injured and never was his old self. If he continued to play the way he did in his prime, I would lean towards a yes, but still.. No is my final answer IMO

alexander_37
03-21-2012, 11:08 PM
Read through this entire thread and not a single poster that says McGrady doesn't deserve to be in the HOF even attempted to ascertain the real reason as to why that was the case. No one has even made an attempt to break down his supporting casts throughout his prime/healthier years. All everyone is doing is making a blanket statement without even attempting to apply context to their argument and use circumstantial evidence to back their claim.

Want to know why he's going to make it to the Hall? Because unlike you guys the voters will actually take the extenuating circumstances into consideration and realize that his failures in the post season actually wasn't as a result of the man McGrady was (as he still continued his high level of play in the post season) but because of the rosters he had the misfortune of being a part of.

I dare anyone saying McGrady doesn't deserve to be in the hall to reply to this post and actually attempt to address the points that I made.

He was a once in a generation talent, he workd hard, he was never given a decent surrounding cast until it was too late, and he was probably a top 5 gifted offensive player in history if not #1.

alexander_37
03-21-2012, 11:09 PM
It is a very tough decision... But I would say no. Never got past the first round, then he got injured and never was his old self. If he continued to play the way he did in his prime, I would lean towards a yes, but still.. No is my final answer IMO

Are you kidding me ... if he had even put up 1-2 more 20+ ppg seasons at decent efficiency it would not even be a discussion.

Wolfman01
03-22-2012, 12:44 AM
Not sure but I would say hes a consideration for Hall of Fame though.

SLS80
03-22-2012, 04:24 PM
No! Never got team out of 1st rd playoffs, and his #s aren't good enough to look past that

I say YES BECAUSE.......no one, and I mean no one.....has been able to put up those numbers while playing an entire game with their eyes shut! haha

ThuglifeJ
03-22-2012, 06:42 PM
man idk bout you guys but when I think HOF I think mostly of ICONIC players.
AI, Tmac, VC were iconic players in the sports world. Not just NBA alone, they drew in fans who DIDNT EVEN WATCH BASKETBALL

come on in 30 years you'd want players like them to be remembered and looked up rather than MAJORITY of the current hall of famers.

SteveNash
03-22-2012, 07:26 PM
This is your opinion. McGrady had a fluke season. Really anyone who resorts to saying that player had a fluke season as their argument really shows that they have no other case but to make up utter foolishness.

Hard work rubs off on teammates and does matter when it comes to getting into the HoF.

Tracy never proved otherwise. McGrady fans are talking about what could have been, I'm talking about reality.


:confused:

Damn near every NBA Superstar would do the very same. What the hell are you talking about? I guess Magic Johnson got what he deserved too right because he wanted to play for the Lakers and no one else? How about Kobe Bryant he's getting what he deserved right. You guys with these baseless logics really make me wonder sometimes. Do you read what you're saying? This is a business who wouldn't want an opportunity to better themselves? You would do the very same.

McGrady was free to do as he pleased. He made his choice, he chose his "bad" teammates. He doesn't get a free pass for that.


Took the easy way out after he toiled night in and night out for that team gave his blood sweat and tears only for their FO to muck it up and never even attempt to give their franchise player the type of support he needed.

Blood, sweat, and tears, hilarious. McGrady is a well known slacker on and off the court.


Dude you are a clear McGrady hater and you're just stooping to levels that only show exactly how silly you're being. None of what you're saying has any context or logic and you're just hating on a man without any reason whatsoever. :pity:

Actually make an argument with something of substance outside of fluke seasons and what these organizations could have done after they didn't do it for Carter nor Bosh and now the Magic isn't doing it for Howard but I guess you own a crystal ball so you could have seen the future. :rolleyes:

Tracy didn't want to rebuild with the Magic, he wanted them to trade the #1 pick for some bum vet. They didn't listen to him and he tried to chase a ring in Houston. Failed to get out of the first round. Up 2-0 heading home!!!


Bro dont try to convince him its useless. This is the same guy that said nash was only good because of D'antoni's system:facepalm:

Didn't say that. And it's more valid than you trying to claim Nash made every player to ever play with him batter.


OK. So one game in Orlando is all that matters in terms of that Orlando legacy?

Cool logic.

Look at the starting 5 that game! Armstrong, McGrady, Gircek, Gooden, Garrity :laugh: Top bench players: Jacque Vaughn and Chris Whitney :laugh2:

He carried that squad to a game 7 against basically the same squad that the Pistons won a championship with.

Yeah, he had a bad game. But let's not act like he's the only one to do so.

I can't blame him for a lack of success in Orlando. If you want to do it in Houston, go ahead. But in Orlando, I'm not gonna blame him for not winning with a cast that basically no one in the league at that time could have done any better with.

And the last part also shows you aren't quite thinking straight. He and the front office disagreed about who to draft with the #1 overall pick and where to go. He wanted the more NBA ready guy in Okafor, and the franchise didn't. He then got traded. So, it's not like he really "could have just stayed in Orlando". And he wasn't "taking the easy way out". The club chose to rebuild, so they took Howard (a relative project) and sent their pricey super star packing to get the rebuilding process going.

Again it's not McGrady losing, but how he loses.

Losing to a superior Pistons team, no shame in that. Losing while looking like a complete bum in your "prime" shows what kind of player McGrady is.


Im not convinced any intangible residual effect it may have had on his teammates offsets Tmacs superior game.
So which players did JJ make better with his work ethic?

Running the point unsuccessfully really impresses you more than being the games 2nd most versatile defender who carries a bigger load on both ends? We will have to agree to disagree on that one.

Pretty much everyone he's played with except McGrady. People bash Smith, but he'd probably be out of the league if Joe didn't keep him in check.

Joe was decent at the point, they just needed another ball handler. What matters is that Joe is a team first guy while McGrady is me first.


Read through this entire thread and not a single poster that says McGrady doesn't deserve to be in the HOF even attempted to ascertain the real reason as to why that was the case. No one has even made an attempt to break down his supporting casts throughout his prime/healthier years. All everyone is doing is making a blanket statement without even attempting to apply context to their argument and use circumstantial evidence to back their claim.

Want to know why he's going to make it to the Hall? Because unlike you guys the voters will actually take the extenuating circumstances into consideration and realize that his failures in the post season actually wasn't as a result of the man McGrady was (as he still continued his high level of play in the post season) but because of the rosters he had the misfortune of being a part of.

I dare anyone saying McGrady doesn't deserve to be in the hall to reply to this post and actually attempt to address the points that I made.

McGrady played with probably 10-15 future/current Hall of Famers. The supporting cast argument is a joke. Especially when the Rockets made it to the 2nd round without him.

thekmp211
03-22-2012, 07:36 PM
McGrady played with probably 10-15 future/current Hall of Famers. The supporting cast argument is a joke. Especially when the Rockets made it to the 2nd round without him.

:speechless::speechless:

who? surely by your standards yao doesn't count?

and we aren't debating his time with new york, detroit or atlanta.

so who are these hall of famers exactly?

Swashcuff
03-22-2012, 07:46 PM
McGrady played with probably 10-15 future/current Hall of Famers. The supporting cast argument is a joke. Especially when the Rockets made it to the 2nd round without him.

This is the absolute GARBAGE that I'm talking about.

Again I repeat I DARE you or anyone to give us a breakdown of the supporting casts that Tracy McGrady had during his prime seasons.

Thing is you wont because it just defeats every garbage point you think you made in this thread.

Chronz
03-22-2012, 07:58 PM
Pretty much everyone he's played with except McGrady. People bash Smith, but he'd probably be out of the league if Joe didn't keep him in check.
Right, cuz Tmac is the only slob to ever lace them up with him.


Joe was decent at the point, they just needed another ball handler. What matters is that Joe is a team first guy while McGrady is me first.

Thats not all that matters, even if true, if that player is as good as Tmac its worth it.

LASportsFan1996
03-22-2012, 08:04 PM
He's In The HOF

Hawkeye15
03-22-2012, 08:22 PM
McGrady played with probably 10-15 future/current Hall of Famers. The supporting cast argument is a joke. Especially when the Rockets made it to the 2nd round without him.

What on earth are you talking about with this statement?

D Roses Bulls
03-22-2012, 08:34 PM
It really does bother me talkin bout McGrady, I grew up such a big fan of him when Jordan retired. I remember all of those McGrady/Kobe arguments I use to have with my friends who were Kobe fans. There was no doubt when he was with the Magic, he was just awesome. It's a shame that Grant Hill got Injured cause to be honest, I think they might have won at least one ring together. A 6'8" guy who could shoot the lights out, create his own jumper, could jump out of the gym. This man had the skill set to be one of the greats to ever play this game. he definitely was one of the greatest scorers I had ever seen. Too bad though about his back. he was the NBA Most Improved Player (2001), 7 NBA All-Star (2001–2007), 2 NBA Scoring Champion (2003–2004), 2 All-NBA First Team (2002–2003), 3 All-NBA Second Team (2001, 2004, 2007),and a 2 All-NBA Third Team (2005, 2008). I think that probably gets him in the HOF one day considering he did more in a injury riddled career then some of the guys that are in the HOF.

AIRMAR72
03-22-2012, 09:09 PM
he gets my vote he bought life and hope for the magic franches that hedding down the drain after shaq and those left the team those years tracy played at a high level with no grant hill(injuries) who was the missing formula everyone was expecting great things from both guys but it never turnout those injuries

alexander_37
03-22-2012, 09:45 PM
Tracy never proved otherwise. McGrady fans are talking about what could have been, I'm talking about reality.



McGrady was free to do as he pleased. He made his choice, he chose his "bad" teammates. He doesn't get a free pass for that.

Did he tell Orlando to manage their team badly or something??

Blood, sweat, and tears, hilarious. McGrady is a well known slacker on and off the court.

says???

Tracy didn't want to rebuild with the Magic, he wanted them to trade the #1 pick for some bum vet. They didn't listen to him and he tried to chase a ring in Houston. Failed to get out of the first round. Up 2-0 heading home!!!

again says???

Didn't say that. And it's more valid than you trying to claim Nash made every player to ever play with him batter.



Again it's not McGrady losing, but how he loses.

Losing to a superior Pistons team, no shame in that. Losing while looking like a complete bum in your "prime" shows what kind of player McGrady is.

When exactly??

Pretty much everyone he's played with except McGrady. People bash Smith, but he'd probably be out of the league if Joe didn't keep him in check.

Joe was decent at the point, they just needed another ball handler. What matters is that Joe is a team first guy while McGrady is me first.

They both average 4.5 career assists....

McGrady played with probably 10-15 future/current Hall of Famers. The supporting cast argument is a joke. Especially when the Rockets made it to the 2nd round without him.
ROFLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLL who exactly


You made so many UN-substatiated claims and never once backed any of them up, your points are invalid.

SteveNash
03-22-2012, 10:46 PM
This is the absolute GARBAGE that I'm talking about.

Again I repeat I DARE you or anyone to give us a breakdown of the supporting casts that Tracy McGrady had during his prime seasons.

Thing is you wont because it just defeats every garbage point you think you made in this thread.

Prime seasons? Plural? What do you consider to be his prime seasons. You look at Kobe and he has surgery on his knee every other season. It would be easy for Kobe to quit after his 35PPG season and then he could leave it up to a fans imagination of what could have been. You could say, Kobe had Kwame and Smush garbage supporting cast. The great players still contribute past their prime when they're beaten down and broken.


Right, cuz Tmac is the only slob to ever lace them up with him.

Thats not all that matters, even if true, if that player is as good as Tmac its worth it.

No, but we're talking about the HoF and it does matter. Tell me how many slobs are in the HoF that have similar careers to McGrady.


Did he tell Orlando to manage their team badly or something??

Well the problem is that even the worst GMs are usually better than 95% of the players. But it's not like his teams moved him to where he didn't want to be moved. He chose his path and it backfired on him.


says???

Shane Battier


again says???

I don't think he came out and said it publicly, but he made it clear through media channels he didn't want to rebuild.


When exactly??

When exactly what?


They both average 4.5 career assists....

And?


ROFLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLL who exactly

Don't want to get into more arguments, but you know it is true.

Swashcuff
03-22-2012, 10:52 PM
SteveNash you're a waste of anyone's time and a troll I'm done with you.

alexander_37
03-22-2012, 10:54 PM
Prime seasons? Plural? What do you consider to be his prime seasons. You look at Kobe and he has surgery on his knee every other season. It would be easy for Kobe to quit after his 35PPG season and then he could leave it up to a fans imagination of what could have been. You could say, Kobe had Kwame and Smush garbage supporting cast. The great players still contribute past their prime when they're beaten down and broken.



No, but we're talking about the HoF and it does matter. Tell me how many slobs are in the HoF that have similar careers to McGrady.

Who is a slob?

Well the problem is that even the worst GMs are usually better than 95% of the players.But it's not like his teams moved him to where he didn't want to be moved. He chose his path and it backfired on him.

This makes no sense...

Shane Battier

prove it

I don't think he came out and said it publicly, but he made it clear through media channels he didn't want to rebuild.

again prove it

When exactly what?



And?



Don't want to get into more arguments, but you know it is true.

You seem to be the only one here who thinks that so please list them.



Lol your a joke back up your statements.

Crackadalic
03-22-2012, 11:00 PM
Lmaooo. Mcgrady's early teams would make lebron's 07 finals team look like the legendary bulls lol

Aust
03-22-2012, 11:21 PM
Nope.

AntiG
03-23-2012, 03:35 AM
no

thekmp211
03-23-2012, 08:15 AM
Don't want to get into more arguments, but you know it is true.

no one knows that's true. lets INCLUDE new york, detroit and atlanta to make this somewhat plausible. i'll also inlcude joke "HOFers like Kemp and Ewing because it STILL won't get to ten.


toronto

vince - vince will make the hall, but tmac was too young on the raptors and they never played together in their primes.


orlando

hill - constantly injured, never played a HoF game in a Magic jersey
Kemp - Fat old drunk by the time he made it to orlando
Ewing - beyond washed up

Houston

Yao - relatively legit, and he's only a HoFer because of his international appeal/groundbreaking status

mutumbo - again this shouldn't even count, but Mutumbo did play a nice role with the rockets as a 50 year old for a season or two.

new york

no one

detroit

no one

atlanta

no one. smith and horford are fringe candidates maybe one day but probably won't make it on their current career trajectory. they also represent, by FAR, the best two teammates he's ever played with regardless of team or stature as a player.

so that's 6 names, and only one 1 that happened to play with mcgrady during his prime. so im not really sure what you're getting at.

SteveNash
03-23-2012, 06:19 PM
no one knows that's true. lets INCLUDE new york, detroit and atlanta to make this somewhat plausible. i'll also inlcude joke "HOFers like Kemp and Ewing because it STILL won't get to ten.


toronto

vince - vince will make the hall, but tmac was too young on the raptors and they never played together in their primes.


orlando

hill - constantly injured, never played a HoF game in a Magic jersey
Kemp - Fat old drunk by the time he made it to orlando
Ewing - beyond washed up

Houston

Yao - relatively legit, and he's only a HoFer because of his international appeal/groundbreaking status

mutumbo - again this shouldn't even count, but Mutumbo did play a nice role with the rockets as a 50 year old for a season or two.

new york

no one

detroit

no one

atlanta

no one. smith and horford are fringe candidates maybe one day but probably won't make it on their current career trajectory. they also represent, by FAR, the best two teammates he's ever played with regardless of team or stature as a player.

so that's 6 names, and only one 1 that happened to play with mcgrady during his prime. so im not really sure what you're getting at.

John Amaechi
Ron Artest
Shane Battier
Chauncey Billups
Marcus Camby
Vince Carter
Patrick Ewing
Richard Hamilton
Grant Hill
Joe Johnson
Shawn Kemp
Yao Ming
Dikembe Mutombo
Charles Oakley
Luis Scola
Ben Wallace

At least 10 of those guys make the HoF.

llemon
03-23-2012, 06:37 PM
man idk bout you guys but when I think HOF I think mostly of ICONIC players.
AI, Tmac, VC were iconic players in the sports world. Not just NBA alone, they drew in fans who DIDNT EVEN WATCH BASKETBALL

come on in 30 years you'd want players like them to be remembered and looked up rather than MAJORITY of the current hall of famers.

So, the HOF is about who sold the most jerseys?

Then I suggest the HOF consider Stephon Marbury.

NY007
03-23-2012, 06:57 PM
This is very plain and simple with Mcgrady, he was a very talented and good player. Never a top 5 in the but was in the top 10 in the prime of his carear. He never won anything, not even a playoff series and he was suppose to be the leader and best player on the team. Don't give me these bs excuses that he didn't have good players around him, that's a cop out. Plenty of super stars led their teams in the playoffs whether they had a good team around him or not.

Mcgrady was not a winner, he was all stats. Then the bs excuse of injuries come into play, hate to break it to you but it's part of the game.

He is not a HOFer plain and simple, If you believe he was then you obviously have very low standards for the HOF, don't know the game, or just had a hard on for him.

thekmp211
03-23-2012, 07:27 PM
John Amaechi
Ron Artest
Shane Battier
Chauncey Billups
Marcus Camby
Vince Carter
Patrick Ewing
Richard Hamilton
Grant Hill
Joe Johnson
Shawn Kemp
Yao Ming
Dikembe Mutombo
Charles Oakley
Luis Scola
Ben Wallace

At least 10 of those guys make the HoF.

at least half of those guys are not HoF, and he played with one when they were both prime. i can't believe you're really listing ewing and kemp. not sure what else to say..

alexander_37
03-23-2012, 07:32 PM
John Amaechi
Ron Artest
Shane Battier
Chauncey Billups
Marcus Camby
Vince Carter
Patrick Ewing
Richard Hamilton
Grant Hill
Joe Johnson
Shawn Kemp
Yao Ming
Dikembe Mutombo
Charles Oakley
Luis Scola
Ben Wallace

At least 10 of those guys make the HoF.

ROFL ROFL ROFL ROFL ROFL

Yao Ming is the only guy there who was even close to being considered an all star when he played with T-Mac.

Kemp played 1 season in Orlando and averaged and impressive 6.8 points and 5.7 rebounds per game

Ron Artest a Hall of Famer!!?? HAHAHHAHHHAHAHAHHAHAHHAHAHHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHAHAHHAHA HAHHAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHHA HAHAHHAHAHAHAH

even then he played merely averagely and shot 40% from the field which is below average.

Shane Battier again not a hall of famer and was pretty much past T-Macs prime.

Billups ... in NY ... seriously your grasping at straws here.

Camby because he was so good in his second year and Tmacs rookie year.

Again Ewing put up an astounding 6 points per game.

I am not going to continue but most of these guys won't sniff the HOF and the rest were all brought together long before or after their effective years and you just proved yourself a massive moron.

willabeast77
03-24-2012, 04:01 PM
John Amaechi
Ron Artest
Shane Battier
Chauncey Billups
Marcus Camby
Vince Carter
Patrick Ewing
Richard Hamilton
Grant Hill
Joe Johnson
Shawn Kemp
Yao Ming
Dikembe Mutombo
Charles Oakley
Luis Scola
Ben Wallace

At least 10 of those guys make the HoF.

Even if some of them are Hall of Famers, it doesn't matter since McGrady played with them not at their best (either past their primes or before their primes) or not for many seasons. But out of the list of players, I consider Billups, Carter, Ewing, Ming, and Wallace HOF'ers, and probably Mutombo and Hill to an extent.

Redskins10
03-24-2012, 04:20 PM
Tracy never proved otherwise. McGrady fans are talking about what could have been, I'm talking about reality.



McGrady was free to do as he pleased. He made his choice, he chose his "bad" teammates. He doesn't get a free pass for that.



Blood, sweat, and tears, hilarious. McGrady is a well known slacker on and off the court.



Tracy didn't want to rebuild with the Magic, he wanted them to trade the #1 pick for some bum vet. They didn't listen to him and he tried to chase a ring in Houston. Failed to get out of the first round. Up 2-0 heading home!!!



Didn't say that. And it's more valid than you trying to claim Nash made every player to ever play with him batter.



Again it's not McGrady losing, but how he loses.

Losing to a superior Pistons team, no shame in that. Losing while looking like a complete bum in your "prime" shows what kind of player McGrady is.



Pretty much everyone he's played with except McGrady. People bash Smith, but he'd probably be out of the league if Joe didn't keep him in check.

Joe was decent at the point, they just needed another ball handler. What matters is that Joe is a team first guy while McGrady is me first.



McGrady played with probably 10-15 future/current Hall of Famers. The supporting cast argument is a joke. Especially when the Rockets made it to the 2nd round without him.

You suck dick. Seriously just shut the **** up.

alexander_37
03-24-2012, 09:38 PM
SteveNash is the worst poster since federal reserve.

Swashcuff
03-25-2012, 10:50 AM
SteveNash is the worst poster since federal reserve.

Hands down one of the worst ever.

Hawkeye15
03-25-2012, 10:57 AM
John Amaechi
Ron Artest
Shane Battier
Chauncey Billups
Marcus Camby
Vince Carter
Patrick Ewing
Richard Hamilton
Grant Hill
Joe Johnson
Shawn Kemp
Yao Ming
Dikembe Mutombo
Charles Oakley
Luis Scola
Ben Wallace

At least 10 of those guys make the HoF.

This reminds me of when JB states LeBron had HoF help with Big Z and Shaq. When a player is 200 years old and a shell of their former self, its not even remotely the same thing as playing with a HoF'er when they were actually playing like a future HoF'er.

Hawkeye15
03-25-2012, 10:58 AM
and did you actually state John Amaechi may be a HoF'er?

thekmp211
03-25-2012, 11:02 AM
and did you actually state John Amaechi may be a HoF'er?

i missed that too and now i feel dumb for troll-feeding.

iliketurtles24
03-25-2012, 11:21 AM
guys, have you ever heard of balkis? This stevenash guy is a lightweight compared to him. He at least attempts to give a valid argument.

PHX2daDEATH
03-25-2012, 11:28 AM
Here's the deal with T-mac..the guy was on a HOF pace before he was traded to the Knicks..that Killed his Career IMO..killed it...he hasnt been the same player since then, of course the injury didn't help either but i think he would of been better off playing on a contender..finding a role..instead of playing on the mess of a Knicks team.. Maybe he would of won a playoff Series also....T-Mac's career burnt out before he turned 30...never won a playoff series which to me is just mind boggling..he'll probably get in..and thats because B-ball HOF isnt as hard to acheive as Baseball or Football..does he deserve it? No ..just because he never won a playoff series..

alexander_37
03-25-2012, 11:58 AM
Nice post. I couldn't help but back you up.

In 2001 Tracy McGrady his breakout season as his scoring average rose from 15.4 ppg to 26.8ppg while averaging 4.6apg and 7.5 rpg. Let's take a quick look at his teammates on that Orlando Magic team. These are the players with the most minutes played on the team (excluding T-Mac):
Darrell Armstrong
Bo Outlaw
Mike Miller
John Amaechi
Pat Garrity
Michael Doleac
Monty Williams
and Don Reid
The record of that flaming pile of crap? 43-39. Imagine if Grant Hill had been healthy for more than 4 games...In the playoffs, McGrady averages 34-7-8 with a TS% of 48.3% in a losing effort to the the Milwaukee Bucks led by a trio of Ray Allen, Glenn Robinson, Sam Cassell.


In 2002, McGrady continues to excel but is still saddled with little to no help
These are the players with the most minutes played on the team (excluding T-Mac):
Darrell Armstrong
(A way past his prime 36 year old) Horace Grant
Pat Garrity
Mike Miller
Troy Hudson
Monty Williams
Patrick Ewing's corpse playing less than 14mpg
and Don Reid
With no other teammate playing even close to an all-star level... the Magic finish 44-38. McGrady averages 31-6-5 with a TS% of 55.3% in a losing effort to the Hornets.

In 2003, McGrady has a regular season that is immortal in the eyes of many. He was first in the NBA in PER, Usage, Offensive Win Shares, 3rd in overall win shares, and his turnover percentage was 6th. Considering he handled the ball a lot more frequently and created a lot more assists than anyone ahead of him in the top 5 (purely shooters like Peja and Reggie), this is a remarkable statistic that gets overloooked. His advance statistics that season compare well with Jordan's best years. Yet let's take a look and see if the Magic FO finally got him some help... Most minutes played by anyone not named McGrady:

Darrell Armstrong
Pat Garrity
Mike Miller (their 3rd best player was injured for 32 games)
Shawn Kemp (33 year old Kemp was averaging a robust 7-6 on 41.8% fg... 46.8% ts)
Jaqcue Vaughn
Andrew DeClercq
Jeryl Sasser actually played over 1,000 minutes.

Names of players that actually STARTED at least one game for them that season: Pat Burke (8), Steven Hunter (5), Jeryl Sasser (4), Olumide Oyedeji (3), Chris Whitney (1) , Ryan Humphrey (1)

Besides McGrady, Pat Garrity was the only played that season to average over 10ppg and start at least 40 games for the Magic that season. 10.7 ppg in 53 starts. Considering the injuries to Grant Hill (still) and Mike Milller, this is the ugliest roster we've seen yet. Their record: 42-40. You think if you take McGrady off that team they are even going to sniff 25 wins? In the playoffs, McGrady averaged 32-7-5 with a TS% of 56.1%(!) as they lost in 7 games to the Pistons team that we are all familiar with... Rip, Chauncey, Ben Wallace, Prince, etc. How he could take that series to 7 games is beyond me.

In 2004, they stunk. McGrady played in 67 games and along with some familiar names they added a past his prime Juwan Howard, a young Drew Gooden, other playes like Lue, Bogans, Stevenson. They went 21-61 and for the first time were in the lottery in a McGrady season. Then the Magic decided to trade McGrady to the Rockets for Steve Francis. Magically their record the next season of 2005 was 36-46. Good thing they got rid of McGrady! No. The rosters between those two seasons were drastically different. They got the #1 overall pick in the draft and traded a future 1st to get the 20th player selected. They went from a lineup Juwan Howard/McGrady/Gooden/Lue/Bogans etc. to Francis / Dwight Howard / Grant Hill (finally healthy) / Hedo Turkoglu / Jameer Nelson. It's a completely different roster. Steve Francis didn't take Keith Bogans to 36 wins. That's for damn sure. Even after the roster turnover, they still didn't become a winning franchise again until 2008, four years AFTER trading McGrady.

Read this Phx2dadeath

JordansBulls
03-25-2012, 11:01 PM
SteveNash you're a waste of anyone's time and a troll I'm done with you.

:clap:

alexander_37
03-25-2012, 11:38 PM
Anyone notice after SteveNash committed suicide or got de-populated by the government this thread pretty much stopped??

JordansBulls
03-26-2012, 12:24 AM
John Amaechi
Ron Artest
Shane Battier
Chauncey Billups
Marcus Camby
Vince Carter
Patrick Ewing
Richard Hamilton
Grant Hill
Joe Johnson
Shawn Kemp
Yao Ming
Dikembe Mutombo
Charles Oakley
Luis Scola
Ben Wallace

At least 10 of those guys make the HoF.

:laugh2::laugh::laugh2::laugh::laugh2::laugh::laug h2::laugh::laugh2::laugh::laugh2::laugh::laugh2::l augh::laugh2::laugh::laugh2::laugh::laugh2::laugh: :laugh2::laugh::laugh2::laugh::laugh2::laugh::laug h2::laugh:

Chronz
03-26-2012, 01:06 AM
You dont think Scola can make it?

LakersMaster24
03-26-2012, 01:46 AM
You dont think Scola can make it?

Not sure if serious or joking. Scola is not good enough to be the door man of the Hall of Fame.

Chronz
03-26-2012, 02:08 AM
You dont think Scola can make it?

Not sure if serious or joking. Scola is not good enough to be the door man of the Hall of Fame.
Sounds like you haven't seen the list

willabeast77
03-26-2012, 12:50 PM
:laugh2::laugh::laugh2::laugh::laugh2::laugh::laug h2::laugh::laugh2::laugh::laugh2::laugh::laugh2::l augh::laugh2::laugh::laugh2::laugh::laugh2::laugh: :laugh2::laugh::laugh2::laugh::laugh2::laugh::laug h2::laugh:

What about Joe Johnson? You think he'd make the Hall of Fame someday?

JordansBulls
03-26-2012, 04:57 PM
What about Joe Johnson? You think he'd make the Hall of Fame someday?

At least he has been a 5x allstar.

RowBTrice
03-26-2012, 05:29 PM
Still no.

SteveNash
03-26-2012, 06:24 PM
and did you actually state John Amaechi may be a HoF'er?

It would be due to him being the first to admit to being a homosexual. So it'd be more off court issue than on court. But it could still happen.


:laugh2::laugh::laugh2::laugh::laugh2::laugh::laug h2::laugh::laugh2::laugh::laugh2::laugh::laugh2::l augh::laugh2::laugh::laugh2::laugh::laugh2::laugh: :laugh2::laugh::laugh2::laugh::laugh2::laugh::laug h2::laugh:

So I'm guessing you agree with 9? So just one more of those guys has to get in?

I like my chances.

Ballah0liC1
03-26-2012, 07:22 PM
John Amaechi
Ron Artest
Shane Battier
Chauncey Billups
Marcus Camby
Vince Carter
Patrick Ewing
Richard Hamilton
Grant Hill
Joe Johnson
Shawn Kemp
Yao Ming
Dikembe Mutombo
Charles Oakley
Luis Scola
Ben Wallace

At least 10 of those guys make the HoF.

this is prob the worst post I have ever seen, you are either a troll, ****ing dumbass or 5 yrs old, couple of those guys MIGHT make it but sorry yao is the only one tmac got to legitimately play with even though they missed alot of games together

alexander_37
03-26-2012, 10:48 PM
^ His name is Ballah0lic , seems legit yo.

JordansBulls
03-28-2012, 02:02 PM
This reminds me of when JB states LeBron had HoF help with Big Z and Shaq. When a player is 200 years old and a shell of their former self, its not even remotely the same thing as playing with a HoF'er when they were actually playing like a future HoF'er.

How about when that player outscores you in the pivotal game 5 when the series is tied up 2-2?

BlinkManJan02
03-28-2012, 02:27 PM
I would say no, but he at least deserves some consideration. Didn't he lead the league in scoring a few years? maybe that was just once.

SteveNash
03-28-2012, 05:17 PM
How about when that player outscores you in the pivotal game 5 when the series is tied up 2-2?

So what you're saying is LeBron should be more of a ball hog like Jordan and not make teammates better? Also, ignoring Shaq and Twan's awful defense.

valade16
03-28-2012, 05:25 PM
So what you're saying is LeBron should be more of a ball hog like Jordan and not make teammates better? Also, ignoring Shaq and Twan's awful defense.

A. Jordan didn't make his teammates better? Somebody should tell that to Pippen, since he pretty much credited Jordan with making him an All-star great player in the first place.

B. Also, if were talking about systems I'm taking whatever Jordan did over whatever LeBron has done considering Jordan has 6 titles under his belt and LeBron has 0...

C. Seriously though, I find it funny that you're trying to discredit Jordan and his ball-hogging when the big knock on LeBron in the clutch and finals is that he becomes too passive. So I guess the answer to your question is: YES. He absolutley should mimic Jordan in the clutch and be a ball-hog.

SteveNash
03-28-2012, 05:36 PM
A. Pippen made Jordan into a winner. 1-10 without Pippen in the playoffs. Missed the playoffs twice.

B. Jordan was 28 when he got his first ring. LeBron is 27. Bill Russell didn't have to be a ball hog like Jordan to nearly double the amount of rings. Jordan had the luxury of a watered down NBA, and should have asterisks next to his championships.

C. Smart play > Bad play every time.

I am Smart
03-28-2012, 05:37 PM
dear god why is this still being discussed

Chronz
03-28-2012, 05:53 PM
dear god why is this still being discussed

Its not

redwhitenblue
03-28-2012, 08:47 PM
A. Pippen made Jordan into a winner. 1-10 without Pippen in the playoffs. Missed the playoffs twice.

B. Jordan was 28 when he got his first ring. LeBron is 27. Bill Russell didn't have to be a ball hog like Jordan to nearly double the amount of rings. Jordan had the luxury of a watered down NBA, and should have asterisks next to his championships.

C. Smart play > Bad play every time.
If Lebron was as good a shooter as Jordan, he probably would be a little more of a ball hog. You forgot quite a few other players Jordan got along with Pippen after 87, the teams prior to that were pretty thin on talent. And Jordan didn't demand top dollar until his last two years with the Bulls (97 and 98), prior to that the team was able to distribute money to good role players so the talent wasn't so top heavy.

AIRMAR72
03-28-2012, 11:49 PM
A. Pippen made Jordan into a winner. 1-10 without Pippen in the playoffs. Missed the playoffs twice.

B. Jordan was 28 when he got his first ring. LeBron is 27. Bill Russell didn't have to be a ball hog like Jordan to nearly double the amount of rings. Jordan had the luxury of a watered down NBA, and should have asterisks next to his championships.

C. Smart play > Bad play every time.

you got JOKES brah....pippen made jordan.. OK

Swashcuff
03-29-2012, 11:38 AM
The trend continues. SteveNash proves time and time again to be one of the worst posters on PSD. I find it hard to believe that he isn't just trolling.

JordansBulls
03-29-2012, 03:29 PM
A. Pippen made Jordan into a winner. 1-10 without Pippen in the playoffs. Missed the playoffs twice.

B. Jordan was 28 when he got his first ring. LeBron is 27. Bill Russell didn't have to be a ball hog like Jordan to nearly double the amount of rings. Jordan had the luxury of a watered down NBA, and should have asterisks next to his championships.

C. Smart play > Bad play every time.

Pippen didn't do anything to make the Bulls successfull he came in as a role player on that team. Was coming off the bench and averaged 8 ppg and 4 rpg.

In the playoffs in 1988 that year MJ averaged 36/7/5/2/1 on 53% FG
In the playoffs in 1988 that year Pippen averaged 10/5/2/1/1 on 47% FG

In the first round that season in 1988 MJ averaged

MJ vs. Cleveland, 1988: 45 ppg/5 reb/5 ast/53% FG

Pippen vs Cleveland, 1988: 11 ppg/5 reb/2 ast/47% FG




In 1989 the two teams the Bulls upset MJ did this:

MJ vs. Cleveland, 1989: 40 pts/6 reb/8 ast/52% FG
Pippen vs Cleveland, 1989 15 pts/9 reb/4 ast/40% FG


MJ vs. NY, 1989: 37 pts/10 reb/9 ast/55% FG
Pippen vs NY, 1989: 15 pts/7 reb/5 ast/58% FG


MJ led the Bulls every year in PER, Win Shares, WS/PER 48 minutes and PPG and the league. Pippen in 1994 didn't even lead the Bulls in win shares in the playoffs. In fact he was 3rd.

In 1990 the Bulls without Pippen won game 4 on the road against Barkley's Sixers in a blowout despite Philly having a higher SRS rating than the Bulls that year.
In 1997 the Bulls won game 5 of the ECF with Pippen playing 7 minutes.

Point is is that Jordan could win without Pippen, but you aren't beating all time great teams like the '86 Celtics or '87 Celtics without having a decent cast around you.


Bulls would probably still have lost those series from 1985-1987 even if you added a prime Pippen to those teams.

SteveNash
03-29-2012, 05:37 PM
If Lebron was as good a shooter as Jordan, he probably would be a little more of a ball hog. You forgot quite a few other players Jordan got along with Pippen after 87, the teams prior to that were pretty thin on talent. And Jordan didn't demand top dollar until his last two years with the Bulls (97 and 98), prior to that the team was able to distribute money to good role players so the talent wasn't so top heavy.

LeBron's the better 3 point shooter. Jordan better midrange. Jordan played in a weaker defensive era so overall Lebron's the better shooter.

Scottie Pippen was the perfect teammate for Jordan, doing all the little things, bringing the intangibles Jordan didn't bring while not hogging the spotlight. Jordan would be viewed as a T-Mac type player without Pippen.

And Jordan didn't take a low contract out of the goodness of his heart like LeBron did. He signed a huge contract at the time, his own shortsightedness about the future of the NBA market is what locked him into a bad NBA contract.


Pippen didn't do anything to make the Bulls successfull he came in as a role player on that team. Was coming off the bench and averaged 8 ppg and 4 rpg.

In the playoffs in 1988 that year MJ averaged 36/7/5/2/1 on 53% FG
In the playoffs in 1988 that year Pippen averaged 10/5/2/1/1 on 47% FG

In the first round that season in 1988 MJ averaged

MJ vs. Cleveland, 1988: 45 ppg/5 reb/5 ast/53% FG

Pippen vs Cleveland, 1988: 11 ppg/5 reb/2 ast/47% FG




In 1989 the two teams the Bulls upset MJ did this:

MJ vs. Cleveland, 1989: 40 pts/6 reb/8 ast/52% FG
Pippen vs Cleveland, 1989 15 pts/9 reb/4 ast/40% FG


MJ vs. NY, 1989: 37 pts/10 reb/9 ast/55% FG
Pippen vs NY, 1989: 15 pts/7 reb/5 ast/58% FG

Pippen was the true hero in Game 5 against the Cavs. Getting the first start of his career, outplaying Jordan and making the key plays on both sides of the ball. Something you rattling off stats don't tell you.

The final game against NY it was Pippen finally fighting back against NY tired of watching Jordan flopping and trying to motivate the team in their next round match up against the Pistons. Unfortunately Pippen couldn't overcome Jordan's poor performance against them.


MJ led the Bulls every year in PER, Win Shares, WS/PER 48 minutes and PPG and the league. Pippen in 1994 didn't even lead the Bulls in win shares in the playoffs. In fact he was 3rd.

In 1990 the Bulls without Pippen won game 4 on the road against Barkley's Sixers in a blowout despite Philly having a higher SRS rating than the Bulls that year.
In 1997 the Bulls won game 5 of the ECF with Pippen playing 7 minutes.

Point is is that Jordan could win without Pippen, but you aren't beating all time great teams like the '86 Celtics or '87 Celtics without having a decent cast around you.


Bulls would probably still have lost those series from 1985-1987 even if you added a prime Pippen to those teams.

'94. You mean the season where the Bulls lost a player who put up 17 WS the previous season and lost 2 fewer games?

And sorry for forgetting Philadelphia. I'll remember that Jordan's illustrious career without Pippen was 2-10 in the playoffs.

Prime Pippen without Jordan against the 86/87 Celtics would have faired a lot better no quesiton.

JordansBulls
03-29-2012, 06:03 PM
Pippen was the true hero in Game 5 against the Cavs. Getting the first start of his career, outplaying Jordan and making the key plays on both sides of the ball. Something you rattling off stats don't tell you.

The final game against NY it was Pippen finally fighting back against NY tired of watching Jordan flopping and trying to motivate the team in their next round match up against the Pistons. Unfortunately Pippen couldn't overcome Jordan's poor performance against them.


MJ 39 pts and Pippen 24 pts.

And like I said

MJ vs. Cleveland, 1988: 45 ppg/5 reb/5 ast/53% FG

Pippen vs Cleveland, 1988: 11 ppg/5 reb/2 ast/47% FG

And yeah Pippen helped soo much against NY that he got ejected in the game and then later complains against Detroit about a migraine.





'94. You mean the season where the Bulls lost a player who put up 17 WS the previous season and lost 2 fewer games?

And sorry for forgetting Philadelphia. I'll remember that Jordan's illustrious career without Pippen was 2-10 in the playoffs.

Prime Pippen without Jordan against the 86/87 Celtics would have faired a lot better no quesiton.

And didn't even lead the team in Win Shares in the playoffs. And sat out the final play when Kukoc hit the shot that turned the series around including the suspension to Derek Harper.
And no Prime Pippen on the Bulls doesn't do anything to get a game against any of those teams.


Pippen became great due to playing with Jordan, he even said so himself.

Source: GoogleBooks (http://books.google.com/books?id=aQ84ViBNkYwC&pg=PA28&lpg=PA28&dq=Game+Michael+Jordan+broke+his+leg&source=web&ots=Y9Xtn3nomR&sig=6shSn2cklYKVP1kBaC6nI0A_oko&hl=en&sa=X&oi=book_result&resnum=2&ct=result#PPA39,M1)




Pippen, unlike other Bulls who usually kept their distance from Jordan, tried to learn all he could from Jordan in practice. In turn, Jordan worked with Pippen on his moves, jump shot, and defense and taught him mental toughness.



Pippen relates on how his game improved - Link (http://www.nba.com/bulls/news/jordanhof_pippen_090910.html)


“He was very competitive, so he went at me and that helped me learn,” said Pippen. “You continue to compete against the very best every day, and you will get better, or you’ll be embarrassed.”




“I went to a small school, so I had to be a jack of all trades and master a few,” said Pippen. “Defense was one thing I was really able to work at and get better.

“A lot of my instincts came from guarding Michael all the time in practice,” he added. “I had four other guys on my team, but I had schemes that I would throw out there depending on what he did. I’d say, ‘If I make Michael do this, then you go trap him.’ There were things I tried to do on defense to trigger him into a
mistake. He was a great player, and if you couldn’t try it on him in practice, there was nowhere else to try it.”



Pippen realized himself that going against MJ is what made him better.

http://sports.yahoo.com/nba/news?slug=aw-krausejordan090909



“Michael was great at identifying things,” Krause said. “Would Pippen have been great someplace else? Michael absolutely killed Scottie in practice every day for his first two years. Mike just tore Pip up. He made Pip learn how to compete and forced him into playing hard. Had there not been someone to challenge Scottie like that, I’m not sure what would’ve happened to him.”



http://www.nba.com/bulls/news/asksam_091030.html

Sam: I know there's that "he's a rookie thing," though I thought more with Rose was the way he drove and then was so quick he could avoid the contact. I think with him he was more accustomed to having just come out of playing in the Chicago playgrounds where you aren't going to get calls going to the basket. I remember watching Jordan not long after Pippen joined the Bulls showing Pippen how to drive and go into a defender and then finish your shot. Wade was a more mature player having gone to college several years, and Anthony played in the post and inside a lot. That's one area for Rose for improve. He's a quick study and I think you'll see him taking the hit since he's strong and can do it and drawing more calls this season.


http://www.nba.com/bulls/news/asksam_091023.html



Would you still consider pippen to be included on the 50 greatest players list? I know that he pioneered/changed the way that his position was played creating more of a point-forward spot, which paved the way for players like melo and lebron. But he never did accomplish anything by himself, and proved in Portland that he couldn't carry a team.

SteveNash
03-29-2012, 06:17 PM
MJ 39 pts and Pippen 24 pts.

And like I said

MJ vs. Cleveland, 1988: 45 ppg/5 reb/5 ast/53% FG

Pippen vs Cleveland, 1988: 11 ppg/5 reb/2 ast/47% FG

And yeah Pippen helped soo much against NY that he got ejected in the game and then later complains against Detroit about a migraine.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M79eJyW_T0M

Hero.

And I know it can sound pathetic, but as someone who has suffered with migraines, they can be very debilitating.


And didn't even lead the team in Win Shares in the playoffs. And sat out the final play when Kukoc hit the shot that turned the series around including the suspension to Derek Harper.
And no Prime Pippen on the Bulls doesn't do anything to get a game against any of those teams.

I already proved WS are a joke, stop using them. And are you implying Jordan was always a team first guy?


Pippen became great due to playing with Jordan, he even said so himself.

Source: GoogleBooks (http://books.google.com/books?id=aQ84ViBNkYwC&pg=PA28&lpg=PA28&dq=Game+Michael+Jordan+broke+his+leg&source=web&ots=Y9Xtn3nomR&sig=6shSn2cklYKVP1kBaC6nI0A_oko&hl=en&sa=X&oi=book_result&resnum=2&ct=result#PPA39,M1)





Pippen relates on how his game improved - Link (http://www.nba.com/bulls/news/jordanhof_pippen_090910.html)







Pippen realized himself that going against MJ is what made him better.

http://sports.yahoo.com/nba/news?slug=aw-krausejordan090909

http://www.nba.com/bulls/news/asksam_091030.html

Sam: I know there's that "he's a rookie thing," though I thought more with Rose was the way he drove and then was so quick he could avoid the contact. I think with him he was more accustomed to having just come out of playing in the Chicago playgrounds where you aren't going to get calls going to the basket. I remember watching Jordan not long after Pippen joined the Bulls showing Pippen how to drive and go into a defender and then finish your shot. Wade was a more mature player having gone to college several years, and Anthony played in the post and inside a lot. That's one area for Rose for improve. He's a quick study and I think you'll see him taking the hit since he's strong and can do it and drawing more calls this season.

Taking quotes from players are unreliable, though I don't know what point you're trying to prove since I never said Jordan never helped Pippen, just that Pippen helped Jordan become a winner.



http://www.nba.com/bulls/news/asksam_091023.html

And as we saw with Jordan on the Wizards, he was a bum without Pippen.

joe1nas
03-29-2012, 06:38 PM
+1 to add to this...(LA KOBE FANS DO NOT GET MAD) Tmac was the premier Guard over Kobe for YEARS...YEARS..Not a season...YEARS...It was 2 diffrent situations. Tmac was trying to build a team around him...Kobe had a team .actually wasnt best player on his team,and had a coach. Injuries hurt Tmac. The only nod for Kobe is he made it clear he was a winner,but if it was IF I HAD THE CHANCE TO CLONE THEIR SKILLS/SIZE AND BECOME ONE OF THEM...NO DOUBT TMAC...6'9 SG??!?!? WITH HANDLES, AND JUMPER???!?!?!? AND CAN PUT YOU ON A POSTER?! TMAC...AND I LOVE KOBE.

T Mac was never better then kobe he was close though but never better

LongWayFromHome
03-29-2012, 07:29 PM
There are 8 retired players above him on the HOF probability list that AREN'T in the Hall

http://www.basketball-reference.com/leaders/hof_prob_career.html

mcgrady is #99

joe1nas
03-29-2012, 10:30 PM
I see a lot of similarities with these two teams. Who'do yall think is better