PDA

View Full Version : Why is Chris Paul still praised so much?



NetsPaint
03-18-2012, 04:57 PM
I know this might not be popular and might even offend people, but whatever.

Last season when I watched the Hornets, which was a lot, most of the season was him passing off wide open shots, not looking into it, etc. Turns out, and admittedly, he saved himself for the Playoffs. You could look at that different ways on whether that's good or not. One one hand, you don't want him to risk injuring his knee, on the other hand, he wasted valuable chemistry with the team and making them better.

It doesn't seem he wanted out of New Orleans simply because there wasn't enough talent, he's coming off as he feels entitled not to give it all because he's so great, and he thinks the other players should step even if they don't have the talent to. There's a reason why he's getting paid as much as he is, and that's to do everything he can to help them win.

If this IS his mindset, then Clippers fans should not be surprised if he changes teams.

Hustlenomics
03-18-2012, 06:35 PM
19 points, 15 assists, 9 rebounds for him today. He's the best point guard in the game

Reyes6
03-18-2012, 06:37 PM
He deserves the praise... he can take over games.

tredigs
03-18-2012, 06:41 PM
19/15/9, 0 turnovers and 4 steals on 8/14 in the OT win over Detroit that he had to close out in OT. Culminated by a heady play to sneak a Detroit won jump ball away from them and turn it into the deciding bucket.

He's just smarter than everyone else in the league, and is the ultimate team player. Takes over only when he needs to and keeps everyone involved the rest of the game. Swiss Army knife PG; best there is right now.

KB-Pau-DH2012
03-18-2012, 06:47 PM
19 points, 15 assists, 9 rebounds for him today. He's the best point guard in the game

The guy in your sig puts up those type of numbers more often than CP3.

Method28
03-18-2012, 06:49 PM
are you saying.cp is lazy? hahahaha dude is one of the hardest workers in the nba. Its acknowledged by the rest of the league. Hence why hes so heady. He knows his ****.

But to answer....his teammates SHOULD step up dont you think. Theyre nba players....if they cannot hit open jumpers then sit on the bench and let someone who can play.

hgtiger32
03-18-2012, 06:50 PM
haha cp3 is so good. can u imagine clips without him?

tredigs
03-18-2012, 06:54 PM
The guy in your sig puts up those type of numbers more often than CP3.

Now if only Rondo had the passing efficiency of CP3 and could hit the side of a barn outside of 6 feet...

Yunqn
03-18-2012, 06:54 PM
he's cleary talking about the situation in new orleans.. not what he did in todays game or w.e with the clippers.. you guys just read one line and scroll down to the comment section..

i get his point.. it always seem alot like chris is too passive or didnt want to take over when needed when he was in new orleans.. i would be shocked if he left l.a but if teaming up with dwight and anther star maybe in new york like the knicks in 2 years is his choice then i could see it.. but only under those circumstances..

shep33
03-18-2012, 07:01 PM
He's pretty amazing. I hate his flopping, but outside of that he's the best pure point in the NBA.

kjoke
03-18-2012, 07:06 PM
Very composed. I think that is the best part of his game, and what makes him the best pg in the nba

Heediot
03-18-2012, 07:12 PM
In both NO and nowadays in LA, he looks to get his teammates involved first. On occasion he does try to score more when he's in the right mindset. At the end of games, you'll see him try to take more control of the scoring.

nysportsfan02
03-18-2012, 07:13 PM
15 AST and 0 TO tonight.

Incredible. He might be too passive, but when he wants too, he can easily take over a game which is why he's the leader in 4th quarter points. Best PG in the game.

NetsPaint
03-18-2012, 07:35 PM
I can see people's points about his composure, his game today, etc., and I do think he's a hard worker off the court, but I feel the Clippers would have several more wins if he put played liked he did a few years ago. Something about him just seems off, not the same player anymore.

Method28
03-18-2012, 07:46 PM
I can see people's points about his composure, his game today, etc., and I do think he's a hard worker off the court, but I feel the Clippers would have several more wins if he put played liked he did a few years ago. Something about him just seems off, not the same player anymore.

hes in a different uniform? different system....give them time to form together. this time next year everyone should look more comfortable

Hawkeye15
03-18-2012, 07:50 PM
Well, he gets praise because he is the best PG on the planet.

lvlheaded
03-18-2012, 07:52 PM
I'd take him on my team any day of the week. Even the way he played in NO. Man is the best PG on the planet

naps
03-18-2012, 07:53 PM
Why is Chris Paul still praised so much? Because he's the best point guard the league has seen since Magic Johnson's hayday. Who do you want to be praised instead?

UKblazers
03-18-2012, 07:54 PM
I can see people's points about his composure, his game today, etc., and I do think he's a hard worker off the court, but I feel the Clippers would have several more wins if he put played liked he did a few years ago. Something about him just seems off, not the same player anymore.

He's lost a half step after the knee surgery. The fact that he's still so efficient is a testament to his work rate. He used to be up there in Ft attempts he's had to adapt his game.

tredigs
03-18-2012, 07:55 PM
I can see people's points about his composure, his game today, etc., and I do think he's a hard worker off the court, but I feel the Clippers would have several more wins if he put played liked he did a few years ago. Something about him just seems off, not the same player anymore.

It's funny you say that (wanting him to be more aggressive) because numbers wise literally every aspect of his game is better than his career averages, he is among the top 4th quarter scorers in the NBA (might be #1), and is leading the CLIPPERS to an HCA playoff bid.

Not sure what else you want out of this guy in order for him to live up to the "praise"? If anything he's undervalued, I know for sure that the casual fan does not notice all the ridiculously subtle but crucial things he does to help his team win on a nightly basis. Without knowing these guys personally and being able to really gauge it, I do think from my eye-test standpoint that has the highest bbiq in the league.

And remember, he's doing all of this post knee surgery. Speaks to his talent level/work-ethic/bbiq even more.

shep33
03-18-2012, 07:59 PM
Why is Chris Paul still praised so much? Because he's the best point guard the league has seen since Magic Johnson's hayday. Who do you want to be praised instead?

Gary Payton, John Stockton, Steve Nash, Isiah Thomas, and Jason Kidd IMO were better in their primes, and I love CP3's game.

J-Kidd has always somehow been underrated

naps
03-18-2012, 08:05 PM
Gary Payton, John Stockton, Steve Nash, Isiah Thomas, and Jason Kidd IMO were better in their primes, and I love CP3's game.

J-Kidd has always somehow been underrated

They had longer primes but CP3's career is still way to far to be finished. But his peak (2007-08 OR 2008-09) was better than any point guard since Magic and may be better than any of Magic's best seasons (not sure on that). I am too lazy to post the numbers but I am sure you can look it up yourself if you want. Or someone like Raph, ManRam, Tredigs, Hawk can do it. They have posted those stats before IIRC.

Losoway
03-18-2012, 08:07 PM
i agree i think chris paul is overrated to the max but he wins game so i guess thats what matters

NetsPaint
03-18-2012, 08:08 PM
It's funny you say that (wanting him to be more aggressive) because numbers wise literally every aspect of his game is better than his career averages, he is among the top 4th quarter scorers in the NBA (might be #1), and is leading the CLIPPERS to an HCA playoff bid.

Not sure what else you want out of this guy in order for him to live up to the "praise"? If anything he's undervalued, I know for sure that the casual fan does not notice all the ridiculously subtle but crucial things he does to help his team win on a nightly basis. Without knowing these guys personally and being able to really gauge it, I do think from my eye-test standpoint that has the highest bbiq in the league.

And remember, he's doing all of this post knee surgery. Speaks to his talent level/work-ethic/bbiq even more.
I don't know, he still puts up great numbers no doubt, and his bball IQ definitely is exceptional, I just think he might be holding back for whatever reason. Some of the games they lost seems like they could have been prevented if he turned it on. I know you're thinking, "those numbers indicate he did have it turned on", but Chris Paul at his best is mind-blowing. Unless his knee is still bothering him, he should still be doing it, because he's even more knowledgeable now.

You see guys like Nash and Rose and they're motors are always going, with Chris Paul a lot of the time it seems like he's just dribbling the ball while standing a long time. The Chris Paul at his best dismantles teams, easily seen to the casual viewer.

If people think he's the best PG in the game then fine, he is great, but I think he can be much better.

Chronz
03-18-2012, 08:16 PM
Lsat year he wore a clunky brace, he didn't want to but it was for his own safety. He took it off for the playoffs and he dismantled the Lakers.

Now hes playing better without it but he knows he has to pace himself. Hes not as good as he used to be because of this, but hes praised because him pacing himself is still the best or 2nd best at his position who raises his game in the playoffs. Pretty obvious

Chronz
03-18-2012, 08:17 PM
Why is Chris Paul still praised so much? Because he's the best point guard the league has seen since Magic Johnson's hayday. Who do you want to be praised instead?

Gary Payton, John Stockton, Steve Nash, Isiah Thomas, and Jason Kidd IMO were better in their primes, and I love CP3's game.

J-Kidd has always somehow been underrated
I've always found him overrated tbh. Ill take prime CP3

shep33
03-18-2012, 08:24 PM
I've always found him overrated tbh. Ill take prime CP3

Really? I respect that, but I think when watching him play he does so much on both ends of the floor. He's probably the best rebounding pg in the history of the game, he couldn't really score efficiently, but he would play great defense.

He's won quite a bit with sub par talent. Amazing that he took the Nets to Finals

thekmp211
03-18-2012, 08:27 PM
he's a monster. the timing of this thread couldn't be less appropriate.

ManRam
03-18-2012, 08:28 PM
Gary Payton, John Stockton, Steve Nash, Isiah Thomas, and Jason Kidd IMO were better in their primes, and I love CP3's game.

J-Kidd has always somehow been underrated

I think J-Kidd has been fairly rated. Maybe lately, in his latter years, he might be clouding people's opinion of him, but I don't know if I'd say he's underrated. Some might, some don't...but as a whole I think he got a ton of love and when he hangs those shoes up for the last time, people will remember how good he was.

EDIT: But then I look at b-r.com and see him ranked around 50, when guys like Isiah are 25. Hell, CP3 is ranked 31 himself. So maybe he is underrated.

I'd argue that CP3's 2008-2009 season was not only better than any season any of those guys ever had, even Stockton, but I'll argue it wasn't even really close in some of those cases. You could argue the season before that as well. We're even getting into Magic Johnson territory with those two seasons.

I think if he continues to perform at the level he has so far in his career, he'll top Isiah and Payton universally, and perhaps even Kidd and Nash. Nash is just so tough, because he has two MVPs, but he also was literally useless on one end of the basketball court for his whole career...and 50% of the games are played on that end.

Iodine
03-18-2012, 08:29 PM
Guys Chris Paul clearly never works on his game off the court, it doesnt matter what the stats or his coaches or his former teammates or anyone says, the OP just knows this.

barreleffact
03-18-2012, 08:30 PM
Gary Payton, John Stockton, Steve Nash, Isiah Thomas, and Jason Kidd IMO were better in their primes, and I love CP3's game.

J-Kidd has always somehow been underrated

To each his own, but Stockton is the only one I take hands down over CP3. Isiah is definitely arguable, but I don't feel Nash's peak was as good as Paul's. I definitely choose Paul over Payton, but again to each his own. IDK how I feel about Kidd. He was always a great passer, defender, and rebounder but average scorer. Paul scores and ***** more efficiently than Kidd ever did.

KnicksorBust
03-18-2012, 08:33 PM
Terrible timing to create this thread. :laugh:

Although there is never a good time to make a bad thread.

shep33
03-18-2012, 08:35 PM
To each his own, but Stockton is the only one I take hands down over CP3. Isiah is definitely arguable, but I don't feel Nash's peak was as good as Paul's. I definitely choose Paul over Payton, but again to each his own. IDK how I feel about Kidd. He was always a great passer, defender, and rebounder but average scorer. Paul scores and ***** more efficiently than Kidd ever did.

See I think Nash's peak is more impressive than CP3's. Nash in his prime had years where he was at like 19 ppg, 11-12 apg, while shooting well above 50% from the floor, >90% from the line, and 42-43% from three.

To me Steve Nash is the greatest offensive pg to ever play the game.

Sadds The Gr8
03-18-2012, 08:37 PM
Knee injury messed him up. He's still a top PG in the league but I do think he's overrated here. It sucks that he'll never get back to what he was 3 years ago because of the knee injury and like Chronz said, he has to pace himself. 2008 Chris Paul was one of the best players I'd ever seen.

shep33
03-18-2012, 08:39 PM
Payton in his prime was pretty spectacular. In his prime he was always a Defensive player of the year candidate.

Some of the years he had are pretty nice. 24.2 ppg, 9 apg, 6.4 rpg, 2 spg.

Defensively I can't say enough. I've seen him play MJ probably better than anybody since Joe Dumars.

ManRam
03-18-2012, 08:40 PM
See I think Nash's peak is more impressive than CP3's. Nash in his prime had years where he was at like 19 ppg, 11-12 apg, while shooting well above 50% from the floor, >90% from the line, and 42-43% from three.

To me Steve Nash is the greatest offensive pg to ever play the game.

CP3 has had 20+ ppg, 11-12 apg seasons where he was shooting at or just below 50% from the field, 85% from the line and 35-40% from three (he is a markedly worse shooter overall though, especially from three).

Add in top-flight defense, and I think it's VERY close.

Again, I can't get past the defense here. Nash literally was useless on defense most of his career. Paul is an asset on defense.

Paul had a 30 PER season and a few seasons close to .300 WS/48. Nash never cracked 25 in the PER department nor did he ever break .225in terms of WS/48. I know those two stats can be misleading, but when the gap is that huge it does say something...

waveycrockett
03-18-2012, 08:42 PM
19 points, 15 assists, 9 rebounds for him today. He's the best point guard in the game

Rondo puts those #s all the time just sayin...

smith&wesson
03-18-2012, 08:44 PM
As i recall he was injured most of last season. when you come back from injury you may have rust, it takes time to regain game shape. once the playoffs started he was a best and gave his team his all.

smith&wesson
03-18-2012, 08:45 PM
Rondo puts those #s all the time just sayin...

which is why he is also considered one of the best. but lets not get confused cp3 is the better over all player.

shep33
03-18-2012, 08:46 PM
CP3 has had 20+ ppg, 11-12 apg seasons where he was shooting at or just below 50% from the field, 85% from the line and 35-40% from three (he is a markedly worse shooter overall though, especially from three).

Add in top-flight defense, and I think it's VERY close.

Again, I can't get past the defense here. Nash literally was useless on defense most of his career. Paul is an asset on defense.

Paul had a 30 PER season and a few seasons close to .300 WS/48. Nash never cracked 25 in the PER department nor did he ever break .225in terms of WS/48. I know those two stats can be misleading, but when the gap is that huge it does say something...

That's interesting, didn't really look into those numbers. But I also think that Nash's per 48 stat's are higher than CP3's. Nash in his prime while putting up those numbers was doing only in 34-35 mpg, as opposed to Cp3 who was around 38-39 mpg.

I just remember watching Nash in the run and gun days, and there was no doubt in my mind that he could easily average 20 ppg in his prime if he wanted to. He passed up so many open looks to get a perfect look for his teammates in order to get guys involved.

celmxc
03-18-2012, 08:51 PM
Cp3 is keeping clippers in the hunt for the playoffs ... That rarely happens to the clips he deserves all the praise... also he may leave clips but it all depends what happens during the playoffs

TheIlladelph16
03-18-2012, 08:53 PM
Rondo puts those #s all the time just sayin...

Hence Rondo being regarded as a top PG as well.... Paul's offense is just so much better than Rondo's. Play-making ability from both of them is incredible. The knee injury has definitely slowed down Chris Paul's overall game, but his efficiency and overall game adjustment speaks to how great of a player he really is.

shep33
03-18-2012, 08:56 PM
Cp3 is keeping clippers in the hunt for the playoffs ... That rarely happens to the clips he deserves all the praise... also he may leave clips but it all depends what happens during the playoffs

Even as a Laker fan, I hope he doesn't. Clips need some good news in their franchise, they've suffered heavily. I hate Sterling, but hopefully CP3 stays with Blake (or Dwight lol)

celmxc
03-18-2012, 09:09 PM
Even as a Laker fan, I hope he doesn't. Clips need some good news in their franchise, they've suffered heavily. I hate Sterling, but hopefully CP3 stays with Blake (or Dwight lol)

Yeah the crazzy injuries ( clipper curse) and the ownership have hindered the clippers ... For examPle trading number one pick for mo williams :facepalm:

NetsPaint
03-18-2012, 09:11 PM
That's interesting, didn't really look into those numbers. But I also think that Nash's per 48 stat's are higher than CP3's. Nash in his prime while putting up those numbers was doing only in 34-35 mpg, as opposed to Cp3 who was around 38-39 mpg.

I just remember watching Nash in the run and gun days, and there was no doubt in my mind that he could easily average 20 ppg in his prime if he wanted to. He passed up so many open looks to get a perfect look for his teammates in order to get guys involved.
I'd argue Steve Nash is still the best offensive PG in the league, up there anyway. I don't know about years ago, but last season and this season he has "right place at right time" defense. People will think he's not even close to being a top offensive PG, but look at their record after the All-Star break, they're not even that far off from the Clippers.

While we're comparing PGs, where do all of you think Walt Frazier ranks? A lot of people consider him the best defensive PG of all-time, Gary Payton too.

ManRam
03-18-2012, 09:15 PM
I will say, if anyone ever came up to me and said "Steve Nash was the greatest offensive PG ever", I would not laugh at them and I'd probably continue to discuss it. I'm not sure who I think is the best offensive PG ever, but he's on the very short list...

shep33
03-18-2012, 09:18 PM
I'd argue Steve Nash is still the best offensive PG in the league, up there anyway. I don't know about years ago, but last season and this season he has "right place at right time" defense. People will think he's not even close to being a top offensive PG, but look at their record after the All-Star break, they're not even that far off from the Clippers.

While we're comparing PGs, where do all of you think Walt Frazier ranks? A lot of people consider him the best defensive PG of all-time, Gary Payton too.

To me Payton was ridiculous defensively. He shut guys down, and he'd guard you 94 feet at times.

5ass
03-18-2012, 09:29 PM
To me Payton was ridiculous defensively. He shut guys down, and he'd guard you 94 feet at times.

one of my favourite players. Ur right defense was great, could switch to guard sgs and sfs too.

waveycrockett
03-18-2012, 09:48 PM
Rondo puts those #s all the time just sayin...

Hence Rondo being regarded as a top PG as well.... Paul's offense is just so much better than Rondo's. Play-making ability from both of them is incredible. The knee injury has definitely slowed down Chris Paul's overall game, but his efficiency and overall game adjustment speaks to how great of a player he really is.
Paul is terrific but he is not what he was pre knee injury. He was more explosive. Right now the best PG in the league is Derrick Rose.

Hustlenomics
03-18-2012, 09:56 PM
The guy in your sig puts up those type of numbers more often than CP3.

true

D Roses Bulls
03-18-2012, 10:09 PM
I can't believe some people on here who always criticize people for using one game as an example are using ONE game as an example. He has no excuses anymore. he is on a highly talented team and someone like paul or how some of you make him out to be should be able to raise these guys games. Yes, Griffin and Jordan are young, but if paul was such a true leader, the clippers wouldn't be kind of struggling right now. I don't want to hear the billups excuse cause the bulls haven't had a true sg with hamilton bein injured I know people will use PER as an example or whatever they wasn't to discredit Rose, but Rose is the best pg in the NBA.

Phenomenonsense
03-18-2012, 10:13 PM
I've never really seen it before but the Clippers had no movement, no passing, nothing without paul and then turned into an unstoppable force when he was in the game from time to time. Amazing really.

ManRam
03-18-2012, 10:27 PM
I can't believe some people on here who always criticize people for using one game as an example are using ONE game as an example. He has no excuses anymore. he is on a highly talented team and someone like paul or how some of you make him out to be should be able to raise these guys games. Yes, Griffin and Jordan are young, but if paul was such a true leader, the clippers wouldn't be kind of struggling right now. I don't want to hear the billups excuse cause the bulls haven't had a true sg with hamilton bein injured I know people will use PER as an example or whatever they wasn't to discredit Rose, but Rose is the best pg in the NBA.

The team is "struggling" right now, but let's not act like the changes he's brought to the team haven't been obvious.

I mean, they have the 7th best record in the NBA and a .630 winning percentage. Last year, they had the 6th worst record in the NBA and a .390 winning percentage. New Orleans with Chris Paul is making a run at the Lakers in the playoffs, while without him they're making a run for the worst record in the NBA.

And I don't think anyone here is using one game as a reason why he's so good, they're mainly just pointing out that the timing proved to be awful. If they are, then hopefully they are also using something more worthwhile to back up their claims about Paul...as I think they are.

You don't have to just use PER to make that argument. You can base it off of efficiency (whatever stat there is that can help prove efficiency will favor Paul), you can base it off win shares, you can base it off even generic stats.

I mean, if we're basing it on the most simple stats there are...who are you taking?

Player A: 19.8 points, 8.3 assists , 3.6 rebounds, 2.2 TOs, 48.9% FG and 39.7% from three.
Player B: 22.8 points, 8.0 assists, 3.5 rebounds, 2.9 TOs, 45% FG and 31.4% from three.

Throw in the fact that player A defends better, is the best 4th quarter player in the league this season, and takes the cake the second you delve into the advanced stats world, and I'm taking Player A.

And let's not overrate what Chris Paul is playing with here. He's playing with a PF who can dunk, and that's about it (he's improving, but his offensive game is limited in a sense), a C who is offensively challenged, a SF who misses 6 out of every 10 shots he takes and a SG who doesn't shoot much better than that himself.

It's not a great TEAM. It has some great pieces, but as a whole it isn't where it needs to be. They have some major holes, and like I said, their problem is defense (bottom third in the league....the worst defensive team currently in the playoffs) not their offense (top 5). That's why they've been losing lately, and none of that his is fault, especially not when you consider that he's basically been playing flawless 4th quarter basketball.


I mean, if you watched today (and please don't say "stop using one game to prove anything"...because I'm using it to illustrate the picture) it's not hard to see how many shots these guys miss even when they're set up perfectly. They are AWFUL at hitting mid range shots, and that hamstrings Paul's play making. The cast isn't awful, but it isn't wonderful...especially if you give a damn about defense. Rose might not have a great SG...but he's had the league's best defense, and that's more important and that's why they're in every game they play, pretty much.

bagwell368
03-18-2012, 10:33 PM
The guy in your sig puts up those type of numbers more often than CP3.

Nonsense, then go ahead and study the percentages. CP3 is one of the 5-6 best players in the game, the other guy barely makes it into the top 10 PG's in the NBA.

Name: PPG, APG, RPG, STL, TOV, TS% eFG% (per 36 min)

Paul: 19.5 - 8.2 - 3.6 - 2.3 - 2.2 .590 .536

R- R: 13.1 - 10.1 4.7 - 1.6 - 3.6 .495 .467

Paul .262 WS/48 (2nd in the NBA)

Rondo .104 WS/48 (170th in the NBA)

Please.........

Raph12
03-18-2012, 10:40 PM
19/15/9, 0 turnovers and 4 steals on 8/14 in the OT win over Detroit that he had to close out in OT. Culminated by a heady play to sneak a Detroit won jump ball away from them and turn it into the deciding bucket.

He's just smarter than everyone else in the league, and is the ultimate team player. Takes over only when he needs to and keeps everyone involved the rest of the game. Swiss Army knife PG; best there is right now.

One bs thread about CP3 being overrated just got closed and now we got another... Would the dumb fans of other good PGs please just give it a rest? CP3 is the best PG in the league, now get over it.

lavilevi23
03-18-2012, 10:59 PM
Paul is the best pure PG in the game.

nysportsfan02
03-18-2012, 11:06 PM
I can't believe some people on here who always criticize people for using one game as an example are using ONE game as an example. He has no excuses anymore. he is on a highly talented team and someone like paul or how some of you make him out to be should be able to raise these guys games. Yes, Griffin and Jordan are young, but if paul was such a true leader, the clippers wouldn't be kind of struggling right now. I don't want to hear the billups excuse cause the bulls haven't had a true sg with hamilton bein injured I know people will use PER as an example or whatever they wasn't to discredit Rose, but Rose is the best pg in the NBA.
Yeah, because this is the first time CP3 has had a game like he did tonight.

And "highly" talented roster? Talented? Sure. But, I see no defensive minded players or a coach like your lover Rose has in Chicago like a Thibs, Deng, Noah, Asik, Gibson.

JLynn943
03-18-2012, 11:42 PM
Please refer back to his series against the Lakers last year. Chris Paul deserves the praise.

D Roses Bulls
03-18-2012, 11:55 PM
The team is "struggling" right now, but let's not act like the changes he's brought to the team haven't been obvious.

I mean, they have the 7th best record in the NBA and a .630 winning percentage. Last year, they had the 6th worst record in the NBA and a .390 winning percentage. New Orleans with Chris Paul is making a run at the Lakers in the playoffs, while without him they're making a run for the worst record in the NBA.

And I don't think anyone here is using one game as a reason why he's so good, they're mainly just pointing out that the timing proved to be awful. If they are, then hopefully they are also using something more worthwhile to back up their claims about Paul...as I think they are.

You don't have to just use PER to make that argument. You can base it off of efficiency (whatever stat there is that can help prove efficiency will favor Paul), you can base it off win shares, you can base it off even generic stats.

I mean, if we're basing it on the most simple stats there are...who are you taking?

Player A: 19.8 points, 8.3 assists , 3.6 rebounds, 2.2 TOs, 48.9% FG and 39.7% from three.
Player B: 22.8 points, 8.0 assists, 3.5 rebounds, 2.9 TOs, 45% FG and 31.4% from three.

Throw in the fact that player A defends better, is the best 4th quarter player in the league this season, and takes the cake the second you delve into the advanced stats world, and I'm taking Player A.

And let's not overrate what Chris Paul is playing with here. He's playing with a PF who can dunk, and that's about it (he's improving, but his offensive game is limited in a sense), a C who is offensively challenged, a SF who misses 6 out of every 10 shots he takes and a SG who doesn't shoot much better than that himself.

It's not a great TEAM. It has some great pieces, but as a whole it isn't where it needs to be. They have some major holes, and like I said, their problem is defense (bottom third in the league....the worst defensive team currently in the playoffs) not their offense (top 5). That's why they've been losing lately, and none of that his is fault, especially not when you consider that he's basically been playing flawless 4th quarter basketball.


I mean, if you watched today (and please don't say "stop using one game to prove anything"...because I'm using it to illustrate the picture) it's not hard to see how many shots these guys miss even when they're set up perfectly. They are AWFUL at hitting mid range shots, and that hamstrings Paul's play making. The cast isn't awful, but it isn't wonderful...especially if you give a damn about defense. Rose might not have a great SG...but he's had the league's best defense, and that's more important and that's why they're in every game they play, pretty much.

so much I wanna say but the walking Dead is on right now and I'll say as much as I can during this commercial break. yes they have improved, but do you think it's all because of paul? Griffin and Jordan have matured and obviously have gotten better. more time to mature will do that for you. so i dont think its just because of paul. second, the bulls have the best record in the nba for the second season in a row and even though this season isn't over and who knows how long rose will sit, if he comes back, chances are that they will again, with no pure scorer on the team besides him. as you have shown the stats, paul is only .3 more assists ahead of rose with arguably more scoring talent on the clippers. honestly how old is rose and how old is paul and you can pretty much say that rose has way more leadership skills and more of a killer instinct then paul has. this clipper team should be in the running with OKC with as much talent they have with the best record in the west, if not the NBA and they aren't. that's why I have always said, don't use stats as a main resource, but use your eyes a well. I know you are not a major bulls fan and you may have not watch as many bulls games, but them results speak for themselves.

D Roses Bulls
03-18-2012, 11:58 PM
Yeah, because this is the first time CP3 has had a game like he did tonight.

And "highly" talented roster? Talented? Sure. But, I see no defensive minded players or a coach like your lover Rose has in Chicago like a Thibs, Deng, Noah, Asik, Gibson.

wait you have a defensive presence in jordan and you can argue blake and your gonna blame just the coach? you cant blame just the coach for how players play defense. look at dallas, they were mostly a offensive oriented teamall these years and yet dallas brought in the right players to beat miami, it wasn't just the coach, it was the players. it's not just a defensive minded coach, we had one before thibs and vinny and his name was scott skiles, but players just stopped caring and listening to him. you cant blame the coach, you gotta blame the players and lack of leadership on the floor, not on the bench.

ManRam
03-19-2012, 12:07 AM
DRB, what expectations did you have for the Clippers coming into the season? Just curious. Sounds like they were really high.

And Blake is not a good defender...let's not play pretend here.

NetsPaint
03-19-2012, 12:13 AM
The Clippers might have actually had a shot at the Playoffs last season if it wasn't for Eric Gordon getting injured. Is Chris Paul that much better with Blake and the Clippers than Baron Davis was? I'm not saying Baron Davis is as good as Paul, but Blake is a damn good player and they have a good defensive center.

Is Del Negro that bad? If so, tell me why. Are they going through the problems the Knicks had under D'Antoni?

PatsSoxKnicks
03-19-2012, 12:14 AM
so much I wanna say but the walking Dead is on right now and I'll say as much as I can during this commercial break. yes they have improved, but do you think it's all because of paul? Griffin and Jordan have matured and obviously have gotten better. more time to mature will do that for you. so i dont think its just because of paul. second, the bulls have the best record in the nba for the second season in a row and even though this season isn't over and who knows how long rose will sit, if he comes back, chances are that they will again, with no pure scorer on the team besides him. as you have shown the stats, paul is only .3 more assists ahead of rose with arguably more scoring talent on the clippers. honestly how old is rose and how old is paul and you can pretty much say that rose has way more leadership skills and more of a killer instinct then paul has. this clipper team should be in the running with OKC with as much talent they have with the best record in the west, if not the NBA and they aren't. that's why I have always said, don't use stats as a main resource, but use your eyes a well. I know you are not a major bulls fan and you may have not watch as many bulls games, but them results speak for themselves.

Have any thoughts on the Bulls record without Rose?

Say whatever you want but Rose is on an elite team defensively and Paul doesn't have anywhere near the amount of defensive talent that the Bulls have.

sep11ie
03-19-2012, 12:17 AM
Cause he's like, really really good and stuff...

5ass
03-19-2012, 12:17 AM
i do believe the clippers are under achieving, but that in no way falls on paul. I think its more to do with del negro, and their need of a sg-sf, which in time nick young could fill. Theirs also the lack of development of blake and jordan. They really havent shown much improvement. I expected Blake to make huge strides, but he hasnt.

KobeBeatJeeesus
03-19-2012, 12:18 AM
haha cp3 is so good. can u imagine clips without him?

And with Eric Gordon on the rise instead? They may have ended up in the same position.

KobeBeatJeeesus
03-19-2012, 12:20 AM
And Blake is not a good defender...let's not play pretend here.

And he still cant shoot to save his life. I don't think there's a defender in the league who contests him outside of 10 feet. He is far too one dimensional.

NetsPaint
03-19-2012, 12:23 AM
i do believe the clippers are under achieving, but that in no way falls on paul. I think its more to do with del negro, and their need of a sg-sf, which in time nick young could fill. Theirs also the lack of development of blake and jordan. They really havent shown much improvement. I expected Blake to make huge strides, but he hasnt.
Maybe it's because Blake hasn't been as fun to watch to me this season, it seems like Blake was better last season, though I haven't watched as many Clippers games. He seemed to be all over the place. Not blaming this on Paul at all, hopefully Blake can create more for himself and others. Blake was scary good last year to me.

ManRam
03-19-2012, 12:27 AM
And he still cant shoot to save his life. I don't think there's a defender in the league who contests him outside of 10 feet. He is far too one dimensional.

And as I said earlier, that hamstrings Paul's ability to create.

They are a putrid mid range shooting team. They missed open shot after open shot from that range...and that doesn't help any PG pad those assist numbers. He had what, 14 assists tonight? If the Clippers even hit a respectable amount of open jumpers today that number sky-rockets.

It's not a perfect roster, and I think the pre-season expectations weren't 100% fitting, especially after their third best player got hurt for the year. They can NOT defend at all, and they have some very one-dimensional offensive players.

They literally are all offense. If the playoffs started today, no playoff team would have a worse defensive rating than them. They gotta outscore teams to win games, since they aren't going to get many stops. Paul has turned that offense around, and defensively, he's the least of that team's problem.


And saying "oh, they have Jordan, he's a good defensive anchor" doesn't mean anything. Their defense is what it is, regardless of who's on it, and it isn't good.

psperry34116
03-19-2012, 12:34 AM
And with Eric Gordon on the rise instead? They may have ended up in the same position.

Yeah, who needs the best point guard in the league when you have a borderline allstar sg who's out for the year.

waveycrockett
03-19-2012, 12:35 AM
The team is "struggling" right now, but let's not act like the changes he's brought to the team haven't been obvious.

I mean, they have the 7th best record in the NBA and a .630 winning percentage. Last year, they had the 6th worst record in the NBA and a .390 winning percentage. New Orleans with Chris Paul is making a run at the Lakers in the playoffs, while without him they're making a run for the worst record in the NBA.

And I don't think anyone here is using one game as a reason why he's so good, they're mainly just pointing out that the timing proved to be awful. If they are, then hopefully they are also using something more worthwhile to back up their claims about Paul...as I think they are.

You don't have to just use PER to make that argument. You can base it off of efficiency (whatever stat there is that can help prove efficiency will favor Paul), you can base it off win shares, you can base it off even generic stats.

I mean, if we're basing it on the most simple stats there are...who are you taking?

Player A: 19.8 points, 8.3 assists , 3.6 rebounds, 2.2 TOs, 48.9% FG and 39.7% from three.
Player B: 22.8 points, 8.0 assists, 3.5 rebounds, 2.9 TOs, 45% FG and 31.4% from three.

Throw in the fact that player A defends better, is the best 4th quarter player in the league this season, and takes the cake the second you delve into the advanced stats world, and I'm taking Player A.

And let's not overrate what Chris Paul is playing with here. He's playing with a PF who can dunk, and that's about it (he's improving, but his offensive game is limited in a sense), a C who is offensively challenged, a SF who misses 6 out of every 10 shots he takes and a SG who doesn't shoot much better than that himself.

It's not a great TEAM. It has some great pieces, but as a whole it isn't where it needs to be. They have some major holes, and like I said, their problem is defense (bottom third in the league....the worst defensive team currently in the playoffs) not their offense (top 5). That's why they've been losing lately, and none of that his is fault, especially not when you consider that he's basically been playing flawless 4th quarter basketball.


I mean, if you watched today (and please don't say "stop using one game to prove anything"...because I'm using it to illustrate the picture) it's not hard to see how many shots these guys miss even when they're set up perfectly. They are AWFUL at hitting mid range shots, and that hamstrings Paul's play making. The cast isn't awful, but it isn't wonderful...especially if you give a damn about defense. Rose might not have a great SG...but he's had the league's best defense, and that's more important and that's why they're in every game they play, pretty much.

This is where you lost me. Derrick Rose is EASILY the best defensive PG and one of the best 4th quarter players.

Lake_Show2416
03-19-2012, 02:18 AM
And with Eric Gordon on the rise instead? They may have ended up in the same position.

:laugh2: :laugh2: :laugh2:

People it aint Blake...................................... it's Chris Paul no matter how pretty it looks when Griffin jumps

shep33
03-19-2012, 04:27 AM
He's unreal, best pure pg in the NBA easily.

Sly Guy
03-19-2012, 09:42 AM
19 points, 15 assists, 9 rebounds for him today. He's the best point guard in the game

yep. He does everything you want out of a pg and more. His will to compete is second to none in this league, he puts the team first by being a distributor even though he could go off for 30 every night.

Method28
03-19-2012, 09:50 AM
@waveycrockett......You're joking right? Please tell me you're joking.

@drosebulls......usually you're a credible poster but i gotta say this arguement has the feel of a lil bit of biased. You saying someone could argue Blake is a good defender kinda shows your hand that you dont watch clipper games. Blake...and this is being nice....blows **** on defense.

BULLSFAN0810
03-19-2012, 09:51 AM
19 points, 15 assists, 9 rebounds for him today. He's the best point guard in the game

LIAR..How if Rose is MVP? Nash drops those lines too...is he better than Paul?

BULLSFAN0810
03-19-2012, 10:02 AM
i agree i think chris paul is overrated to the max but he wins game so i guess thats what matters

+2...I hear "PURE PG,THIS...PURE PG THAT" There is no such thing as Pure anything at any postion. Youre either the PG or you are not. I hear ppl saying a pure pg dont score...Bullskype....You detemine PGS ON WINS AND LOSSES. Everytime you talk about the best pg you talk passing ability etc but the final discussion is win/losses...rings...ships. A pg greatest quality is his ability to LEAD;all that other **** is just stats and fodder to compare for fun. CP3 is a great player but he hasnt lead a team to WCF but once...let him lead Clips then you can put him over more deserving ppl at same postion.

jrm2054
03-19-2012, 10:07 AM
Chris Paul is not overrated

He115ing
03-19-2012, 10:15 AM
I can't even understand half of what you wrote.

TheIlladelph16
03-19-2012, 10:19 AM
wait you have a defensive presence in jordan and you can argue blake and your gonna blame just the coach? you cant blame just the coach for how players play defense. look at dallas, they were mostly a offensive oriented teamall these years and yet dallas brought in the right players to beat miami, it wasn't just the coach, it was the players. it's not just a defensive minded coach, we had one before thibs and vinny and his name was scott skiles, but players just stopped caring and listening to him. you cant blame the coach, you gotta blame the players and lack of leadership on the floor, not on the bench.

The Bulls don't have scoring depth behind Rose, but their defensive depth and just overall talent 1-9 is easily better than the Clippers. Your underrating your own role players and overrating the Clips. Blake is absolutely terrible at defense and they have a young center who is figuring it out. Seriously just go back and watch the Clippers games last year compared to this year and its very clearly evident the impact Paul has made offensively and defensively for that team. Rose is pretty sick too, but I just don't want my PG taking as many shots as he does.

TheIlladelph16
03-19-2012, 10:23 AM
+2...I hear "PURE PG,THIS...PURE PG THAT" There is no such thing as Pure anything at any postion. Youre either the PG or you are not. I hear ppl saying a pure pg dont score...Bullskype....You detemine PGS ON WINS AND LOSSES. Everytime you talk about the best pg you talk passing ability etc but the final discussion is win/losses...rings...ships. A pg greatest quality is his ability to LEAD;all that other **** is just stats and fodder to compare for fun. CP3 is a great player but he hasnt lead a team to WCF but once...let him lead Clips then you can put him over more deserving ppl at same postion.

Name me the last PG to play like Rose's style and shoot as much as he does and lead his team to a championship win..... yeah those are crickets you hear. I do like Rose a lot, but the PG position is naturally a position of facilitating an offense.

BULLSFAN0810
03-19-2012, 10:28 AM
Name me the last PG to play like Rose's style and shoot as much as he does and lead his team to a championship win..... yeah those are crickets you hear. I do like Rose a lot, but the PG position is naturally a position of facilitating an offense.

Isaiah Thomas....I think The Knicks had a pg earl the pearl(im not sure)*** Dennis Johnson,while playing for Seattle Supersonics(not sure if he was pg)

Allen Iverson(if you consider him pg...even though he played next to a natural SG). PG IS A POSITION OF LEADERSHIP..ALL THAT OTHER **** IS ********...YOU WANNA KNOW A GREAT PG ...LOOK AT HOW HIS TEAMMATES PLAY FOR HIM.


did you now a how many "Pure PGs" didnt win?

Nash, Stockton ,Price ,Hardaway, M.Jackson,

How many chased a ring?

Payton,Kidd and a few other

Chronz
03-19-2012, 11:17 AM
lol why is feeny using walking dead (great ending btw) as an excuse to give us a shoddy post? Why not post after the show and make rational thoughts. Its always the same with him, "I'm older (even tho he sounds like a teen to me), wise and I use my eyes. Your young, naive, and don't watch as much basketball as I do".

Thats when you know he doesn't know what hes talking about, lol at us having the talent for the #1 seed, doesn't this guy know Billups went down and that the team isn't very good defensively? CP3 can't anchor a defense, no PG can, so holding that against him is idiotic.

TheIlladelph16
03-19-2012, 11:36 AM
Isaiah Thomas....I think The Knicks had a pg earl the pearl(im not sure)*** Dennis Johnson,while playing for Seattle Supersonics(not sure if he was pg)

Allen Iverson(if you consider him pg...even though he played next to a natural SG). PG IS A POSITION OF LEADERSHIP..ALL THAT OTHER **** IS ********...YOU WANNA KNOW A GREAT PG ...LOOK AT HOW HIS TEAMMATES PLAY FOR HIM.


did you now a how many "Pure PGs" didnt win?

Nash, Stockton ,Price ,Hardaway, M.Jackson,

How many chased a ring?

Payton,Kidd and a few other

The point is that the game has changed since Isiah Thomas. A PG can't anchor a team as its best scorer which is why the great PG's are facilitators who CAN score and take over when needed (i.e. Chris Paul). Rose is a great PG, but doesn't have the diversity in his offensive skill set that Chris Paul does.

Vincent
03-19-2012, 11:42 AM
The point is that the game has changed since Isiah Thomas. A PG can't anchor a team as its best scorer which is why the great PG's are facilitators who CAN score and take over when needed (i.e. Chris Paul). Rose is a great PG, but doesn't have the diversity in his offensive skill set that Chris Paul does.

Diversity?

Not really sure that's the case. Chris Paul is a better passer, but Rose is better at creating his own shot than Paul.

However, I would say Rose has a long way before becoming the efficient player than CP3 is.

But I think what we're starting to learn about basketball is that it's a lot more than individual efficiency that wins games in the league.

BULLSFAN0810
03-19-2012, 11:59 AM
The point is that the game has changed since Isiah Thomas. A PG can't anchor a team as its best scorer which is why the great PG's are facilitators who CAN score and take over when needed (i.e. Chris Paul). Rose is a great PG, but doesn't have the diversity in his offensive skill set that Chris Paul does.

The game hasnt changed...the players do. Diversity? i disagree. Why cant a Pg anchor a team as best scorer? Payton,Nash,Parker.. If you have a great pg you build the team around his skills...When you box yourself into "a player having to have these attributes in order to succeed,you may pass on a dynamic game changing player. Its not Roses scoring that makes him the best PG(anyone who disagreesIMO is actually hating,its like saying LBJ isnt great bc he doesnt play like a PURE SF...BAZINNNNNGGA)what makes rose great is his Temperment,his level of progression...the turn around of the franchise...Level of respect in a short period. Paul is great but he was in NO and he wasnt on too much except for a few years,but within those few years he was killing it,Paul being soo pure in PASSING couldnt score enough for his own team when they needed him to score...AND THE RULE IS @ PG IF THE TEAM CANT SCORE THE PG MAKES IT HAPPEN...HOWEVER! So playing Pg is a hard act to put a description on,but it ends with wins/loses.

swirl54
03-19-2012, 12:10 PM
CP3 is only overrated on PSD that's as far as it goes. He is in top 3 but is NOT number 1.

D Roses Bulls
03-19-2012, 12:21 PM
lol why is feeny using walking dead (great ending btw) as an excuse to give us a shoddy post? Why not post after the show and make rational thoughts. Its always the same with him, "I'm older (even tho he sounds like a teen to me), wise and I use my eyes. Your young, naive, and don't watch as much basketball as I do".

Thats when you know he doesn't know what hes talking about, lol at us having the talent for the #1 seed, doesn't this guy know Billups went down and that the team isn't very good defensively? CP3 can't anchor a defense, no PG can, so holding that against him is idiotic.

Cause unlike some people who get to sit on PSD all day, I have work and school. As you can see, I haven't been on PSD really at all lately. So you're saying Billups really is that big of a difference? come on now. you act as if this is 2004 Chauncy Billups. Billups isn't some kind of defensive anchor either. let's see, you have guy like Cp, Jordan, Bledsoe who are all good defenders. you can sit there and call me all the names you want, but you haven't made no case in this post. all you did was "try" and insult me. I don't expect a logical answer from you cause you are a clippers fan and you actually think Hollinger knows what he is talking about. you have been a rose hater in the past. So I don't even know why I am responding to you.

bagwell368
03-19-2012, 01:16 PM
CP3 is only overrated on PSD that's as far as it goes. He is in top 3 but is NOT number 1.

CP3 is better then Rose, what are you watching?

ghettosean
03-19-2012, 01:25 PM
I know this might not be popular and might even offend people, but whatever.

Last season when I watched the Hornets, which was a lot, most of the season was him passing off wide open shots, not looking into it, etc. Turns out, and admittedly, he saved himself for the Playoffs. You could look at that different ways on whether that's good or not. One one hand, you don't want him to risk injuring his knee, on the other hand, he wasted valuable chemistry with the team and making them better.

It doesn't seem he wanted out of New Orleans simply because there wasn't enough talent, he's coming off as he feels entitled not to give it all because he's so great, and he thinks the other players should step even if they don't have the talent to. There's a reason why he's getting paid as much as he is, and that's to do everything he can to help them win.

If this IS his mindset, then Clippers fans should not be surprised if he changes teams.
Probably because he's the best PG in the game today unless you can mention someone better and I swear to god if you say Linsanity I will lose my ****ing mind!!!

NoahH
03-19-2012, 01:45 PM
B/c he's the best PG in the league?

Swashcuff
03-19-2012, 04:12 PM
I think its clear that the OP didn't understand Chris Paul, The Hornets or Monty Williams last season. He wasn't "saving it" for the post season he was doing what the coach asked of him and he did so quite well.

Swashcuff
03-19-2012, 04:15 PM
CP3 is only overrated on PSD that's as far as it goes. He is in top 3 but is NOT number 1.

I honestly think guys like you live in your own reality where you stick to PSD and your homer circles because its extremely popular opinion throughout America and by extent the world that CP3 is the best PG in the league. In no way is it limited to just PSD. Talk a gander at other NBA forums on the net why don't ya.

Hustlenomics
03-19-2012, 04:21 PM
LIAR..How if Rose is MVP? Nash drops those lines too...is he better than Paul?

nash doesn't get rebounds


CP3 is only overrated on PSD that's as far as it goes. He is in top 3 but is NOT number 1.

you're delusional

Swashcuff
03-19-2012, 04:22 PM
This is where you lost me. Derrick Rose is EASILY the best defensive PG and one of the best 4th quarter players.

Posts like this really proves why this argument doesn't even make sense. This man just said EASILY when Chris Paul, Rajon Rondo, Kyle Lowry and Jrue Holiday among others are all arguably better than Rose is on that end of the floor.

Chronz
03-19-2012, 05:21 PM
Cause unlike some people who get to sit on PSD all day, I have work and school.
LOL your still not getting the point are you, why not post when you have the time? This isnt a telephone conversation where you have to answer instantly. But its a petty matter, I just found it funny, almost like a preemptive excuse to give a poor argument.



As you can see, I haven't been on PSD really at all lately. So you're saying Billups really is that big of a difference? come on now. you act as if this is 2004 Chauncy Billups. Billups isn't some kind of defensive anchor either.
Strawman arguments dont work on me bro, I didnt mention 04 Billups and its obvious hes not an anchor or that player anymore, all that is shown in his statistics.


let's see, you have guy like Cp, Jordan, Bledsoe who are all good defenders.
Why did you mention the kid who got back from injury not too long ago and rarely plays because he mans the same position as Mo-CP3? Bledsoe will play a role on our team someday (hopefully) but he hasnt played much of a role for us this year, AT ALL.

Yes we have CP3 and DJ, that doesnt make an elite defensive team so try again.



you can sit there and call me all the names you want, but you haven't made no case in this post. all you did was "try" and insult me. I don't expect a logical answer from you cause you are a clippers fan and you actually think Hollinger knows what he is talking about. you have been a rose hater in the past. So I don't even know why I am responding to you.

I never expect anything logical from you, and Hollinger owns you. Try watching games outside of Chicago, then you may not sound so biased.