PDA

View Full Version : Before Michael Jordan, who was considered the GOAT?



chitownbulls
03-17-2012, 11:59 PM
Well I'm not to familiar with much basketball before the late 80's/early 90's. So who was considered the GOAT before MJ?

Iodine
03-18-2012, 12:02 AM
*thinks of what I would normally say in this situation*

*doesnt wanna get banned again*

KAJ/Wilt/Russel

CudiOnMyiPod
03-18-2012, 12:03 AM
I would assume Wilt because of those videogame averages. Kareem and Russell too.

JordansBulls
03-18-2012, 12:03 AM
You can check out this thread to have an idea

http://www.prosportsdaily.com/forums/showthread.php?t=635088

Cal827
03-18-2012, 12:03 AM
Bismack Biyombo :D

Hi Iodine :p

Hawkeye15
03-18-2012, 12:03 AM
Wilt or Kareem.

DillyDill
03-18-2012, 12:09 AM
Hands down the Big Dipper Wilt...In my opinion I still think he's the GOAT..who u know other than him to put up 50 points per gm 1 season nuff said

Iodine
03-18-2012, 12:12 AM
Bismack Biyombo :D

Hi Iodine :p
Silly he wasnt even born yet so he was only the 5th-6th guy.



Hands down the Big Dipper Wilt...In my opinion I still think he's the GOAT..who u know other than him to put up 50 points per gm 1 season nuff said

Must.......Resist.....

Bos_Sports4Life
03-18-2012, 12:19 AM
"In a way, I like it better when we lose. Its over and I can look forward to the next game. If we win, it builds up the tension and I start worrying about the next game.- Wilt Chamberlain

Wilt was soft mentally, more worried about sleeping with women than about nba titles ect..

Russell/MJ imo are the 2 best ever, these guys were OBSESSED with winning and both were both strong mentally..

I personally still think Russell has an argument for goat..he single handedly made average defenses into ALL TIME GREAT Defenses and led a team that wasn't good offensivly good too 11 titles in a 13 yr stretch...

DaVille
03-18-2012, 12:27 AM
Probably Bill Russell or Kareem Abdul Jabbar

lavilevi23
03-18-2012, 12:30 AM
KAJ, Russell or Wilt

David123
03-18-2012, 12:33 AM
Before Jordan it was Dr. Jay.

David123
03-18-2012, 12:35 AM
Before Dr. Jay it was Kareem.

BKdoubleStacker
03-18-2012, 12:39 AM
:facepalm:

bill russell???

BullySixChicago
03-18-2012, 12:51 AM
Well I'm not to familiar with much basketball before the late 80's/early 90's. So who was considered the GOAT before MJ?

Wilt chamberlain was!

Juggynuts
03-18-2012, 12:52 AM
60's Wilt
70's DR.J
80's MJ

BullySixChicago
03-18-2012, 12:52 AM
Before Dr. Jay it was Kareem.
Lol it was neither Dr.J nor Kareem.

BullySixChicago
03-18-2012, 12:54 AM
60's Wilt
70's DR.J
80's MJ
Do you know what you are talking about Dr.J was never considered the anything Wilt and Oscar Robertson were long before MJ hit the scene.

Hellcrooner
03-18-2012, 12:55 AM
wilt, kareem or oscar robertson, , magic and bird were in the talks in the late 80s.

ohreally
03-18-2012, 12:57 AM
Oscar Robertson was, Russell was considered (still is) GOAT defensive player. Wilt and Kareem were always in the discussion. And of course, until MJ really became MJ there were these guys named Larry Bird and Magic Johnson.

The goods
03-18-2012, 01:07 AM
I think magic was,but before him it was wilt.
But to be fair it was a combination wilt/russel then magic/bird but its better to name the lakers side of those rivilarys. Lol

Brad IBCB
03-18-2012, 01:12 AM
There was no such thing as a GOAT before Jordan.

Chronz
03-18-2012, 01:12 AM
Among the general populace it had to be Russ. Wilt is my personal #2

b@llhog24
03-18-2012, 01:58 AM
Monta Ellis

Bos_Sports4Life
03-18-2012, 02:08 AM
bill russell???

:facepalm: :facepalm: :facepalm: :facepalm: :facepalm: :facepalm: :facepalm: :facepalm: :facepalm: at not knowing basketball history

Kutchie03
03-18-2012, 02:14 AM
I can't believe that everyone has gotten this wrong.. even Kareem admitted that Earl Manigault was the GOAT

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Earl_Manigault

http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0117450/

Fireworld
03-18-2012, 02:25 AM
I was.

Raph12
03-18-2012, 02:33 AM
Kareem Abdul-Jabbar

abe_froman
03-18-2012, 02:37 AM
Well I'm not to familiar with much basketball before the late 80's/early 90's. So who was considered the GOAT before MJ?
general consensus was russell in nearly every poll taken before the mj era. though people now will say wilt or kareem those two got bumped up abit(and russell downgraded) by younger generations as time passes on.but to the people of/in 1970/1980 russeell was named goat majority of the time

smiddy012
03-18-2012, 02:45 AM
:facepalm:

bill russell???

This times a hundred.

smiddy012
03-18-2012, 02:53 AM
Notice how the OP doesn't say "before MJ's era." So you're likely to get a Magic or Bird response for GOAT if this is the 80s.

Lakers + Giants
03-18-2012, 03:12 AM
Wilt, kareem, magic, russell, big O

tredigs
03-18-2012, 03:17 AM
Any of you guys actually have knowledge on this, or are you all just sharing your opinion?

A poll or some articles on it would be fun to see. I didn't come up on any.

The list is essentially Kareem/Wilt/Russel/Big O/Bird/Magic/Dr. J, but narrowing it down would be interesting. I'd find it very hard to believe that people in 60's considered Wilt the GOAT over Russell though, I will say that much.

Bos_Sports4Life
03-18-2012, 03:26 AM
general consensus was russell in nearly every poll taken before the mj era. though people now will say wilt or kareem those two got bumped up abit(and russell downgraded) by younger generations as time passes on.but to the people of/in 1970/1980 russeell was named goat majority of the time

Russell imo is the most underrated athlete in sports history

5 Leage MVP's/11 rings in a 13 yr career yet people find it LAUGHABLE when ppl say hes in the elite class, its mind boggling

Raps18-19 Champ
03-18-2012, 03:33 AM
Russell imo is the most underrated athlete in sports history

5 Leage MVP's/11 rings in a 13 yr career yet people find it LAUGHABLE when ppl say hes in the elite class, its mind boggling

Use advanced stats to back it up!

Bos_Sports4Life
03-18-2012, 03:41 AM
Use advanced stats to back it up!

Wanna use some advanced stats!? ok!!

57-58 * No title
Offensive Win shares outside of Russell-12.9
Russell's Defensive win shares-7.7

58-59
Offensive Win shares outside of Russell-11.8
Russell's Defensive win shares-8.2

59-60
Offensive Win shares outside of Russell-14.2
Russell's Defensive win shares- 8.9

60-61
Offensive Win shares outside of Russell-7.9
Russell's Defensive win shares- 11.3

61-62
Offensive Win shares outside of Russell-12.6
Russell's Defensive win shares-11.6

62-63
Offensive Win shares outside of Russell-11.0
Russell's Defensive win shares-12.6

63-64
Offensive Win shares outside of Russell-5.5
Russell's Defensive win shares-16.0

64-65
Offensive Win shares outside of Russell- 10.0
Russell's Defensive win shares- 14.4

65-66
Offensive Win shares outside of Russell-12
Russell's Defensive win shares-11.4

66-67 * No title
Offensive Win shares outside of Russell-22
Russell's Defensive win shares-9.2

67-68
Offensive Win shares outside of Russell-17.6
Russell's Defensive win shares-7.8

68-69
Offensive win shares outside of Russell- 14.4
Russels Dfensive win shares- 9.9

TOTALS from 1957-58 too 1968-1969

Russell Defensive win shares-129
Offensive win shares, outside of russell- 151.9

During Last 10 title Runs- (excluding russells rookie yr as he played in olympics, total off)

Russell Defensive Win shares- 112.1
Offensive win shares, outside of Russell- 117.0

Now, The whole offense outside of Russell COMBINED for only 5 more winshares than Russell BY HIMSELF had on Defense. Russells offense from 57-58 too 68-89 accomplished a mere 12.65 offensive win shares a yr outside of Bill, and only 11.7 Offensive win shares during the last 10 title runs of that era.
Four of the title teams had LESS than 11 COMBINED offensive win shares outside of Bill.



What about DRtg??


YR Drtg Rank Diff from League Avg. Diff from 2nd place
1956 90.4 6/8 -1.5
--------------------------------------------------------
1957 82.4 1/8 4.8 2.5
1958 82.0 1/8 5.2 3.9
1959 83.0 1/8 5.8 4.4
1960 83.9 1/8 6.2 1.8
1961 83.0 1/8 8.2 4.6
1962 84.3 1/8 8.7 6.3
1963 86.6 1/9 9.0 6.1
1964 82.7 1/9 11.5 5.6
1965 83.1 1/9 9.9 8.1
1966 87.3 1/9 7.1 4.0
1967 90.8 1/10 4.9 1.7
1968 92.0 2/12 4.6 -
1969 88.4 1/14 6.8 2.8
------------------------------------------------------------
1970 98.5 7/16 0.6 -

*1956 (the yr before Russell)
* 1957 (the yr after Russell)
(1) The Celtics led the league in defense in 12 of Russells' 13 years
(2) From 1958-1966 they dominated the league defensively like no team I can find for a 9 year period
(3) From 1961-1965 the ran off 5 consecutive historically dominant seasons. Look at those numbers.
(4) Before Russell they were a bottom defensive team and immediately jumped 6.3 relative points and 8.0 raw points to the top.
(5) After Russell they dropped to the middle of the pack, losing 6.2 relative points and 10.1 raw points.

According to Neil's method at B-R, who is slightly underestimating Boston's pace relative to the simple method (because he's assuming fewer turnovers are in play), those uber-dominant Celtics teams are the 3rd, 5th, 6th, 8th and 14th best defensive teams of all time, relative to competition. And there's nothing remotely comparable in NBA history for such sustained defensive dominance.


What about the celtics Offense using FG%??

LG RANK
1956-57: 1st in attempts/4th in %/1st in ppg
1957-58: 1st in attempts/3rd in %/2nd in ppg
1958-59:1st in attempts/4th in %/1st in ppg
1959-60:1st in attempts/3rd in %/1st in ppg
1960-61:1st in attempts/8th in %/2nd in ppg
(Up until this time, only 8 teams in nba)
- As u'll notice, the celtics avg finnish in % is 4.4/8, including dead LAST in 1960. Bill had some Great offensive players huh? Or what about Average?

* As of now, there's 9 teams
1961-62:1st in attempts/5th in %/3rd in ppg
62-63: 1st in attempts/9th in %/3rd in ppg
63-64: 1st in attempts/9th in %/2nd in ppg
64-65: 1st in attempts/8th in %/3rd in ppg
65-66:3rd in attempts/8th in %/7th in ppg
- As you see, The celtics finnished dead last TWICE MORE in FG % and finnishing 8th out of 9 2 times, in this 5 yr stretch they finnished on avg of 7.8/9 teams in %, thats not close too AVERAGE, Still thinking he played with sooo many greats??

* As of now, there's 10 teams
66-67: 6th in attempts/4th in %/4th in ppg
* There are 12 teams now
67-68: 7th in attempts/7th in fg %/8th in ppg
* There are 14 teams now
68-69: 3rd in attempts/9th in %/10th in ppg




Boston was SO BAD in some of these yrs on offense, They finnished DEAD LAST or 2nd too LAST in fg % 6 times. They won the NBA Title EVERY SINGLE ONE of those 6 yrs. Do you know why? Bill Russell
B
ostons defense was the SOLE reason they won titles, and the defense outside of Russell? It was AVERAGE. The Boston Celtics Defense pre/post Russell was avg, during russells 13 yrs? It LEG THE LEAGUE IN DRTG 12 TIMES, 2ND ONCE

DillyDill
03-18-2012, 03:47 AM
Wilt hands down ppl...hes stats speak for themselve, there video game like which is insane

abe_froman
03-18-2012, 03:50 AM
Russell imo is the most underrated athlete in sports history

5 Leage MVP's/11 rings in a 13 yr career yet people find it LAUGHABLE when ppl say hes in the elite class, its mind boggling

i woiuldnt go that far but yes his stock has dropped in recent years due to lack of mindboggling offensive stats and strength of teams he played on

Bos_Sports4Life
03-18-2012, 03:57 AM
i woiuldnt go that far but yes his stock has dropped in recent years due to lack of mindboggling offensive stats and strength of teams he played on

Strentgh of the team he played on??

They were last or 2nd too last in FG% during 6 out the teams 11 titles..

Defensively? the celtics were AVERAGE..

YR Drtg Rank Diff from League Avg. Diff from 2nd place
1956 90.4 6/8 -1.5
--------------------------------------------------------
1957 82.4 1/8 4.8 2.5
1958 82.0 1/8 5.2 3.9
1959 83.0 1/8 5.8 4.4
1960 83.9 1/8 6.2 1.8
1961 83.0 1/8 8.2 4.6
1962 84.3 1/8 8.7 6.3
1963 86.6 1/9 9.0 6.1
1964 82.7 1/9 11.5 5.6
1965 83.1 1/9 9.9 8.1
1966 87.3 1/9 7.1 4.0
1967 90.8 1/10 4.9 1.7
1968 92.0 2/12 4.6 -
1969 88.4 1/14 6.8 2.8
------------------------------------------------------------
1970 98.5 7/16 0.6 -

*1956 (the yr before Russell)
* 1957 (the yr after Russell)

Some of those teams weren't only #1 on defense, they were #1 by a LARGE margin..

The followings things prove a couple things (Team FG%/Team DRtg of Team)

- The celtics had one of the WORST offenses in the nba..

- The Celtics Without Russell were League AVERAGE, With Russell? they were by far and away the Best defense in the NBA..


So how exectly did he have this great support again??

LakersIn5
03-18-2012, 04:00 AM
wilt

Hugbees
03-18-2012, 04:19 AM
how about the other MJ?

BowDown
03-18-2012, 04:30 AM
Has no one head of Earvin "Magic" Johnson?

DaVille
03-18-2012, 04:36 AM
Use advanced stats to back it up!

I see what you did there. 11championship nuff said. Bill Russell is GOAT

Raps18-19 Champ
03-18-2012, 04:49 AM
I see what you did there. 11championship nuff said. Bill Russell is GOAT

You need both accolades and advanced stats to back up your argument. Bos_Sports4Life does that pretty well.

You claiming 11 championships wouldn't do unless you back it up with other stuff.

ACanadian
03-18-2012, 05:09 AM
Wilt by far

PhillyFaninLA
03-18-2012, 06:24 AM
KAJ, Russell or Wilt


This and I'm sure Magic and Bird (not as many people that) would have considered them. I'm a bit to young to remember watching Bird but I do remember how much people talked about him.

asandhu23
03-18-2012, 06:28 AM
11 Championships is an interesting argument. How many rings does Luke Walton have? Is he a better player than Karl Malone who has none?

of course, I am not equating Russell to Luke. I am just making my point that number of championships by itself isn't a indicator of greatness.

jp611
03-18-2012, 06:48 AM
Bill Russell

blom85
03-18-2012, 07:08 AM
Oscar Robertson... only player I believe to have averaged a Triple Double through out an entire season 61-62 and still scoring over 30 point per game.

vdv36
03-18-2012, 08:28 AM
You can check out this thread to have an idea

http://www.prosportsdaily.com/forums/showthread.php?t=635088

I'm sorry but that list ****ing Sucks! Not trying to start ****, just think its a really bad example of a list... Who was considered The GOAT before Jordan... Whatever who cares...

Before Jordan, Dr. j before him Kareem?? Before Kareem that prob West... He is the logo of the NBA They where game changers!! They set the bar higher.... How many kids practice what Jordan did??? The same way Jordan practised what Dr. j did... It's always a game.

JasonJohnHorn
03-18-2012, 08:28 AM
Jordan is not the GOAT. Wilt set the records, Kareem broke them, Russell won all the rings, and they all say that the Big O was the best baller ever. That puts Jordan only as high as fifth best in my book.

Jordan is the greatest shooting guard ever, but bottom line, he was simply the most popular player when the league had its biggest audience in history up until that point, and so people from that generation made all the noise about Jordan being the best. Jordan was not better than: Russell, Kareem, Wilt, The Big O, Bird, Magic or The Dream for that matter. And I believe, though they never won a title, that Karl Malone and John Stockton were on a par with Jordan. Now I'm not saying that these guys were all better than Jordan, what I'm saying is that Jordan is not better than them. He may be on a par with most of them, equally good in a different way, but bottom line, this is a team sport, with inter-generational differences as well as differences in position. Jordan never had the kind of impact on the floor that Wilt did. Never. And Jordan's title count, while impressive, is a little less impressive than some others because it was digsuting the amount of calls that went his way. The Bulls/Jordan made up 60% of the league revenue in merchandise, you don't think they made sure that the Bulls and Jordan were in the finals in order to keep the ratings up? There were a number of series, against NY, against Indy, against Utah, where the Bulls had a digusting clear advantage when it came to which direction the calls went. It was hard, as a fan of the game, to watch basketball when Jordan was playing.

Jordan is not a clear cut GOAT. There is an arguement to be made for him on that, but there is an argument to be made for a number of other players who are at least equally, if not more deserving of GOAT status. If Jordan had played in the 60's or 70's, like the Big O, then nobody would be calling him the GOAT. The Big O averaged a triple double for an entire season, and his career averages have him less than an assist and a a rebound away from averaging that for his career, stats that are FAR more impressive than anything Jordan ever did, but because he played in an era where basketball didnt get such high ratings, people don't talk about him.

Its like Kobe today. People compare him to Jordan, but there is no comparison. Jordan did everything that Kobe did, and did it better. More points. More assists. More rebounds. Higher FG%. Kobe is like Jordan-light. But yet people still compare the two because Kobe is the winningest player of his generation at a time whent he game is popular. If Kobe had played int he 70's, people wouldnt compare him to Jordan. They would just see him as a player who was similar, but statistically inferior to Jordan and the comparison would even be brought up.

Iron24th
03-18-2012, 09:20 AM
Julius Erving

JordansBulls
03-18-2012, 09:32 AM
"In a way, I like it better when we lose. Its over and I can look forward to the next game. If we win, it builds up the tension and I start worrying about the next game.- Wilt Chamberlain

Wilt was soft mentally, more worried about sleeping with women than about nba titles ect..

Russell/MJ imo are the 2 best ever, these guys were OBSESSED with winning and both were both strong mentally..

I personally still think Russell has an argument for goat..he single handedly made average defenses into ALL TIME GREAT Defenses and led a team that wasn't good offensivly good too 11 titles in a 13 yr stretch...

What I don't like is that in 1980 Russell was considered the GOAT even after he and Wilt retired so I don't get how Wilt became the GOAT after that point.

JordansBulls
03-18-2012, 09:36 AM
Jordan is not the GOAT. Wilt set the records, Kareem broke them, Russell won all the rings, and they all say that the Big O was the best baller ever. That puts Jordan only as high as fifth best in my book.

Jordan is the greatest shooting guard ever, but bottom line, he was simply the most popular player when the league had its biggest audience in history up until that point, and so people from that generation made all the noise about Jordan being the best. Jordan was not better than: Russell, Kareem, Wilt, The Big O, Bird, Magic or The Dream for that matter. And I believe, though they never won a title, that Karl Malone and John Stockton were on a par with Jordan. Now I'm not saying that these guys were all better than Jordan, what I'm saying is that Jordan is not better than them. He may be on a par with most of them, equally good in a different way, but bottom line, this is a team sport, with inter-generational differences as well as differences in position. Jordan never had the kind of impact on the floor that Wilt did. Never. And Jordan's title count, while impressive, is a little less impressive than some others because it was digsuting the amount of calls that went his way. The Bulls/Jordan made up 60% of the league revenue in merchandise, you don't think they made sure that the Bulls and Jordan were in the finals in order to keep the ratings up? There were a number of series, against NY, against Indy, against Utah, where the Bulls had a digusting clear advantage when it came to which direction the calls went. It was hard, as a fan of the game, to watch basketball when Jordan was playing.

Jordan is not a clear cut GOAT. There is an arguement to be made for him on that, but there is an argument to be made for a number of other players who are at least equally, if not more deserving of GOAT status. If Jordan had played in the 60's or 70's, like the Big O, then nobody would be calling him the GOAT. The Big O averaged a triple double for an entire season, and his career averages have him less than an assist and a a rebound away from averaging that for his career, stats that are FAR more impressive than anything Jordan ever did, but because he played in an era where basketball didnt get such high ratings, people don't talk about him.

Its like Kobe today. People compare him to Jordan, but there is no comparison. Jordan did everything that Kobe did, and did it better. More points. More assists. More rebounds. Higher FG%. Kobe is like Jordan-light. But yet people still compare the two because Kobe is the winningest player of his generation at a time whent he game is popular. If Kobe had played int he 70's, people wouldnt compare him to Jordan. They would just see him as a player who was similar, but statistically inferior to Jordan and the comparison would even be brought up.


Most Career 50+ Point Games in Playoffs History
1. MJ = 8
2. Wilt = 4
3. West = 3


Most Career 40+ Point Games in Playoffs History

1. MJ = 38
2. West = 20
3. Baylor = 14
4. Wilt = 13
5. Shaq = 12
6. Hakeem = 11
Kobe = 11
Iverson = 10
9. Lebron = 9


Most Career 30+ Point Games in Playoffs History
MJ - 109
Kobe - 81
Kareem - 75
West -74
Baylor - 60



http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/basketball/nba/2002/playoffs/top_individual_points/
Top Playoff Single-Game Scoring Performances
Player Team Opponent Total Date
Michael Jordan Chicago at Boston 63 April 20, 1986
Elgin Baylor L.A. Lakers at Boston 61 April 14, 1962
Wilt Chamberlain Philadelphia Syracuse 56 March 22, 1962
Michael Jordan Chicago at Miami 56 April 29, 1992
Charles Barkley Phoenix at Golden State 56 May 4, 1994
Michael Jordan Chicago Cleveland 55 May 1, 1988
Michael Jordan Chicago Phoenix 55 June 16, 1993
Michael Jordan Chicago Washington 55 April 27, 1997
John Havlicek Boston Atlanta 54 April 1, 1973
Michael Jordan Chicago New York 54 May 31, 1993
Allen Iverson Philadelphia Toronto 54 May 9, 2001
Wilt Chamberlain Philadelphia Syracuse 53 March 14, 1960
Jerry West L.A. Lakers Boston 53 April 23, 1969
Jerry West L.A. Lakers Baltimore 52 April 5, 1965
Allen Iverson Philadelphia Toronto 52 May 16, 2001
Sam Jones Boston at New York 51 March 28, 1967
Eric Floyd Golden State L.A. Lakers 51 May 10, 1987
Bob Cousy Boston Syracuse 50* March 21, 1953
Bob Petit St. Louis Boston 50 April 12, 1958
Wilt Chamberlain Philadelphia at Boston 50 March 22, 1950
Wilt Chamberlain San Francisco St. Louis 50 April 10, 1964
Billy Cunningham Philadelphia Milwaukee 50 April 1, 1970
Bob McAdoo Buffalo Washington 50 April 18, 1975
Dominique Wilkins Atlanta Detroit 50 April 19, 1986
Michael Jordan Chicago Cleveland 50 April 28, 1988
Michael Jordan Chicago Cleveland 50^ May 5, 1989
Karl Malone Utah Seattle 50 April 22, 2000
Vince Carter Toronto Philadelphia 50 May 11, 2001


So Wilt played more games than West and Baylor in the same era yet has less games of 30+ and 40+ than them. A guy who failed to step up in the playoffs as well.

Series with HCA


HCA(50+)/non-50
Jordan: 14-0 / 10-0
Russell: 10-0 / 12-1
Shaq: 11-2 / 12-2
Magic: 9-2 / 20-1
Duncan: 13-4 / 8-0
Jabbar: 11-3 / 23-2
Olajuwon: 4-0 / 5-2
Bird: 10-6 / 14-1
Wilt: 4-3 / 9-2

raidersthunder
03-18-2012, 09:40 AM
I would say kareem then wilt

thekmp211
03-18-2012, 10:06 AM
like, who was "MJ" when Michael was a rookie?

gotta be russell. can't be wilt. russell and jerry west i think were the two icons of the NBA (historically). bird and magic and KAJ were still playing.

theheatles
03-18-2012, 10:07 AM
MJ never publicly said he was the GOAT, he just says every era was different

JWO35
03-18-2012, 10:39 AM
Probably Wilt

Aust
03-18-2012, 10:46 AM
Wilt, Kareem, Elgin Baylor, Magic, Jerry West

Just throwing out names, I'm a young guy so I wouldn't know

Hellcrooner
03-18-2012, 12:41 PM
Jordan is not the GOAT. Wilt set the records, Kareem broke them, Russell won all the rings, and they all say that the Big O was the best baller ever. That puts Jordan only as high as fifth best in my book.

Jordan is the greatest shooting guard ever, but bottom line, he was simply the most popular player when the league had its biggest audience in history up until that point, and so people from that generation made all the noise about Jordan being the best. Jordan was not better than: Russell, Kareem, Wilt, The Big O, Bird, Magic or The Dream for that matter. And I believe, though they never won a title, that Karl Malone and John Stockton were on a par with Jordan. Now I'm not saying that these guys were all better than Jordan, what I'm saying is that Jordan is not better than them. He may be on a par with most of them, equally good in a different way, but bottom line, this is a team sport, with inter-generational differences as well as differences in position. Jordan never had the kind of impact on the floor that Wilt did. Never. And Jordan's title count, while impressive, is a little less impressive than some others because it was digsuting the amount of calls that went his way. The Bulls/Jordan made up 60% of the league revenue in merchandise, you don't think they made sure that the Bulls and Jordan were in the finals in order to keep the ratings up? There were a number of series, against NY, against Indy, against Utah, where the Bulls had a digusting clear advantage when it came to which direction the calls went. It was hard, as a fan of the game, to watch basketball when Jordan was playing.

Jordan is not a clear cut GOAT. There is an arguement to be made for him on that, but there is an argument to be made for a number of other players who are at least equally, if not more deserving of GOAT status. If Jordan had played in the 60's or 70's, like the Big O, then nobody would be calling him the GOAT. The Big O averaged a triple double for an entire season, and his career averages have him less than an assist and a a rebound away from averaging that for his career, stats that are FAR more impressive than anything Jordan ever did, but because he played in an era where basketball didnt get such high ratings, people don't talk about him.

Its like Kobe today. People compare him to Jordan, but there is no comparison. Jordan did everything that Kobe did, and did it better. More points. More assists. More rebounds. Higher FG%. Kobe is like Jordan-light. But yet people still compare the two because Kobe is the winningest player of his generation at a time whent he game is popular. If Kobe had played int he 70's, people wouldnt compare him to Jordan. They would just see him as a player who was similar, but statistically inferior to Jordan and the comparison would even be brought up.

prepare for a mirriad of cut and paste empty posts with no real meaning but lot of demagogy coming from Jb.

Im glad to not be the only one that can think straight bout this issue.

ManRam
03-18-2012, 12:43 PM
Yeah...there wasn't a consensus GOAT before him.

A lot of his aura comes from him being the first mega-marketing star and the gradual increase in media attention. His legacy also is regarded as high as it is partially because there was no clear cut GOAT before him, so it was easier for people to anoint him that. I'm not taking shots at him as a player, because I do personally think he's the best ever, but I think a lot of off-the-court reasoning makes him more universally considered the best ever perhaps more than he should. He's the best, but I think he's on a pedestal that was created by a lot of things that didn't happen on the basketball court, mainly the Jordan brand.

Reyes6
03-18-2012, 12:45 PM
Jackie Moon easily.

BradfordIsElite
03-18-2012, 01:01 PM
Magic
then
Dr.J, Kareem, Wilt, Bird and Oscar.

DR_1
03-18-2012, 01:08 PM
You can check out this thread to have an idea

http://www.prosportsdaily.com/forums/showthread.php?t=635088

JB you really should stop using that thread as a reference, it's laughable.

DR_1
03-18-2012, 01:11 PM
prepare for a mirriad of cut and paste empty posts with no real meaning but lot of demagogy coming from Jb.

Im glad to not be the only one that can think straight bout this issue.

Ya, because you are known for thinking straight Crooner :laugh2:

valade16
03-18-2012, 02:14 PM
Sorry hellcrooner, but saying jordan isn't the GOAT in some attempt to try to enlighten people about the past greats is not only a bad way to go about it, it's also wrong...

Jordan has the highest PPG in NBA history, he led the league in PPG 10 times (including 8 straight), and that's including his stint with the Wizards.

... You know what, I was going to continue to rattle off his stats and accolades but it doesn't matter, because you've heard them and if you still aren't convinced nothing will change that.

I mean, when we get down to it, can you even be certain KAJ or Wilt is the best C in NBA history?! Jordan is unarguably the best SG, widely considered the best Guard period as well as perimeter player in NBA history to include most dominant.

There's not even a consensus on whether KAJ is the best C let alone most dominant Center in NBA history.

MJ = GOAT, honestly, Oscar Robertson is laughable as being cinsidered better than him...

Hellcrooner
03-18-2012, 02:38 PM
Sorry hellcrooner, but saying jordan isn't the GOAT in some attempt to try to enlighten people about the past greats is not only a bad way to go about it, it's also wrong...

Jordan has the highest PPG in NBA history, he led the league in PPG 10 times (including 8 straight), and that's including his stint with the Wizards.

... You know what, I was going to continue to rattle off his stats and accolades but it doesn't matter, because you've heard them and if you still aren't convinced nothing will change that.

I mean, when we get down to it, can you even be certain KAJ or Wilt is the best C in NBA history?! Jordan is unarguably the best SG, widely considered the best Guard period as well as perimeter player in NBA history to include most dominant.

There's not even a consensus on whether KAJ is the best C let alone most dominant Center in NBA history.

MJ = GOAT, honestly, Oscar Robertson is laughable as being cinsidered better than him...

Ive never said Jordan isnt goat.

Ive said tough that the same notion of goat DOES not exist.

It something that should be on each persons realm to decide who they THINK is the best.

But Jordan marketing campaign has brainwashed peopel and their capacity of thinking freely /out of the box.
And thats what makes me angry.

THERE IS NOT a GOAT; there is YOUR GOAT.

No one that says Jordan, magic, bird, russell, Wilt, robertson, kobe is the goat is "right" no one that says any of them isnt the goat is "right"

Its a matter of personal preference.

TO start with , comparing eras and position is an atrocity.

Think Free, dont be a sheep.
Thats my motto.

And thinking that all of the media machinery around jordan doesnt have an incidence on what people think he is, overhyping/overating him, its delusional.
As delusional as thinking that real democracy exist anywhere, as opposed to a Media/money guided democracy.

DMasta718
03-18-2012, 03:03 PM
To me, there are multiple GOATs. Not just one clear consensus.

Da Knicks
03-18-2012, 03:10 PM
Kareem!

tr3ymill3r
03-18-2012, 03:12 PM
Oscar Robertson, simply because he was the last guy to average a triple double for a season. While Wilt and Kareem put up insane numbers, I think Oscar had the best overall and polished game.

Hellcrooner
03-18-2012, 03:18 PM
Oscar Robertson, simply because he was the only guy to average a triple double for a season. While Wilt and Kareem put up insane numbers, I think Oscar had the best overall and polished game.

fixed

beliges
03-18-2012, 03:21 PM
As far as a big goes, it was and still is Kareem. As far as a perimeter player goes, it would have to be the Magic man. 5 titles speaks for themselves.

Jint.
03-18-2012, 03:24 PM
Mark Eaton

PhillyFaninLA
03-18-2012, 03:36 PM
Oscar Robertson, simply because he was the last guy to average a triple double for a season. While Wilt and Kareem put up insane numbers, I think Oscar had the best overall and polished game.

If the triple double is your reasoning then hypothetically speaking where would you rank a guy that averaged 10/10/10 for a season because that would be a triple double as well and may be less impressive then 27/8/6? (For the record I am making up those stats not referencing anyone if they match a player it is a coincidence)

smith&wesson
03-18-2012, 03:39 PM
magic or kareem.

SportsAndrew25
03-18-2012, 04:21 PM
Wilt Chamberlain and Kareem Abdul Jabbar. Those two are perhaps the two greatest scorers in NBA history. They played basketball at video game levels.