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nstojic
03-15-2012, 10:27 AM
:clap: :clap: :clap: Enjoy this one. Relish each 'feel good' point...


Blue Jays quietly becoming threat to Yankees


Imagine what the Rays would look like with the finances to keep all of their best players.
Now stop imagining. Because it is happening. Unfortunately for the Rays, it is not in Tampa Bay. Heck, it is not even in this country.
The Blue Jays, methodically, have assembled a talent base at both the major and minor league levels that has them poised to turn the AL East into a Fearsome Foursome. That unsettles no one more than what had been the Terrific Trio of New York, Boston and Tampa. As Yankees GM Brian Cashman said, “It is not good for anyone going up against them.”

In a way, this is about well-kept secrets. For example, do you know that the Blue Jays have averaged 83 wins over the last six years, finishing above .500 in five of them? Doesn’t sound like much, except remember they have amassed those totals playing 18 games annually against each of the Yankees, Red Sox and Rays. That is one-third of an entire schedule.
You know how hard it is to even win 81 games like the Jays did last year when three teams in your division win at least 90? Or win 85 when three others win at least 89 as occurred in 2010? It is like a mathematical trick or — more aptly — symbolic of just how good Toronto has become.

Here is another thing you might not know: Toronto’s owner, Rogers Communication, just might be the majors’ richest ownership. Thus the money is there to take the payroll to places the Rays could never dream about; keep the homegrown elites that ultimately flee Tampa. Blue Jays GM Alex Anthopoulos used the Cubs, Red Sox and Angels as examples of teams he thought Toronto could be equivalent to in creating “a top third payroll” once the Jays become serial contenders.
“That isn’t a guess, that’s a fact,” Anthopoulos said. “It’s a fact because we have done it before.”
Indeed they have. In the four years from 1992-95, the Jays had a top-three payroll, including leading the majors in 1993 and 1995. Not coincidentally, the Jays became the first team to draw more than four million in home attendance in 1991 and did so again in 1992 and ’93, which were both championship seasons. And Anthopoulos believes if the Jays build it (a title contender) they (the fans) will come again and so will monster TV ratings.
“We have a whole country to draw from,” Anthopoulos said. “The fan base is 30 million across Canada.”
All that is missing is the hard part: Climb from a good team to a superb one. Nothing less will thrive within the AL East. If they were in any NL division, for example, the Jays might be the favorites. But they could still be fourth best in the AL East and yet no worse than the eighth- or ninth-best team in the sport.

“This is not a long-term project anymore,” Cashman said. “They are knocking on the door. It is undeniable that they are going to win and win for a while. They are reaping the benefits of great scouting, patience and doing things right.”
Or as Alex Rodriguez said, “They aren’t a secret anymore.”
Anthopoulos became GM in October 2009. His mandate was to pursue upper-echelon talent, “because in the AL East you either shoot for the moon or it is a waste of time,” Anthopoulos said. So he hired just about more scouts than any team. He accumulated high draft picks. He was willing to take chances on skilled players with reputation problems elsewhere such as Yunel Escobar, Brett Lawrie and Colby Rasmus. And, yes, he benefitted from the ascension of Jose Bautista from utilityman to superstar, plus a strong group of youngsters left behind by predecessor, J.P. Ricciardi, now a Mets executive.
Toronto is viewed as having a top-three farm system with one scout calling the Jays’ 2011 Double-A team the best he had ever seen. The Jays have formulated “a lineup without an easy out,” Mark Teixeira said.
However, they still have youth around the diamond and particularly in the rotation. The “volatility” of youth that Anthopoulos depicts is the caution flag to predicting a playoff spot. “But we have decided to go with war with talent, and this is the best I have ever felt about our talent.”
Anthopoulos is not alone. The consensus is the Jays have become a looming force — with money in their wallet. If the Yankees thought the Rays were trouble, just wait.

Joel Sherman - NY Post (Joel Sherman - NY Post)


and with that, I'm done. Enjoy the season, guys. I can't wait to see where this team is in a few years but results aside, it'll be on hell of a ride. :cheers: GO JAYS GO!:hi5:

Converged
03-15-2012, 10:37 AM
You're quick..I was just going to post this haha :)

You know we are on the right track when the Yankees have us on their radar haha.

Farsight
03-15-2012, 10:40 AM
I actually really enjoyed the read. It makes me proud to be a jays fans. Moreover I get a sense of patriotism towards the team, which had been lacking for a good part of the early and mid 21st century

coxrtfs
03-15-2012, 11:19 AM
http://www.vvio.info/jpg1I actually really enjoyed the read. It makes me proud to be a jays fans. Moreover I get a sense of patriotism towards the team, which had been lacking for a good part of the early and mid 21st century

Moreover I get a sense of patriotism towards the team,

Sanyo
03-15-2012, 11:41 AM
Prince who? Albert what? Its all about BRETT LAWRIE AND JOSE BATISTA BABY!

TO Rapz
03-15-2012, 12:03 PM
Prince who? Albert what? Its all about BRETT LAWRIE AND JOSE BATISTA BABY!

No it's not. It's all about Brett Lawrie and Jose Bautista.

wamco
03-15-2012, 12:05 PM
Yanks might as well just try to buy out the jays from rogers and combine the best players onto one super team. ESPN and the commish office prob wouldn't even object.

Ragin' Cajun
03-15-2012, 12:28 PM
Great read. It's nice to know we are gaining respect around the league.

Sanyo
03-15-2012, 12:33 PM
No it's not. It's all about Brett Lawrie and Jose Bautista.

oops forgot the u, got too excited i guess...

es0terik
03-15-2012, 01:05 PM
and with that, I'm done. Enjoy the season, guys. I can't wait to see where this team is in a few years but results aside, it'll be on hell of a ride. :cheers: GO JAYS GO!:hi5:

What do you mean you're done? Are you leaving? :o Don't go :(

es0terik
03-15-2012, 01:15 PM
What a great article. I can't believe that guys like A-Rod, Tex and Cashman said those kinda things. Makes me feel all warm inside. :)

TO Rapz
03-15-2012, 01:57 PM
oops forgot the u, got too excited i guess...

:laugh2: Just messing with you man.

JMac4PM
03-15-2012, 03:18 PM
Whats a matter Yankees? You scurred? Ya should be.

MVP1
03-15-2012, 04:05 PM
You hear that Rogers? This team is one big piece away from contending

DeRozan10
03-15-2012, 05:08 PM
If were right there at the trade deadline somethings gotta happen :)

scottythegreat1
03-15-2012, 05:11 PM
We have always been on the radar. I know the other teams in the AL East take our team seriously....players in this division are smart enough to know that "no game is easy against an AL East rival."

StayOnBoard
03-15-2012, 08:05 PM
We have always been on the radar. I know the other teams in the AL East take our team seriously....players in this division are smart enough to know that "no game is easy against an AL East rival."

Other players/teams do, it's too bad a lot of our own fan base doesn't :(

nithanyo
03-15-2012, 08:25 PM
i remember reading a similar article by yankee nation.... in 2007. Nothing to gloat about lol

Halladay
03-15-2012, 08:41 PM
We've had good teams for a while, our East rivals already knew this, nothing new tbh. The difference this time around is that we have a great farm but it's no secret we've had had pretty good teams in the past.

GNick
03-16-2012, 12:20 AM
:clap: :clap: :clap: Enjoy this one. Relish each 'feel good' point...





Joel Sherman - NY Post (Joel Sherman - NY Post)


and with that, I'm done. Enjoy the season, guys. I can't wait to see where this team is in a few years but results aside, it'll be on hell of a ride. :cheers: GO JAYS GO!:hi5:

We deserve this goodness about to come our way we put in a lot of horrific seasons in last 18 years

Bombtista
03-16-2012, 02:55 PM
i remember reading a similar article by yankee nation.... in 2007. Nothing to gloat about lol

The difference is this team is actually good with the deepest farm in baseball. Our old core of Vernon Wells, Aaron Hill, Troy Glaus, Gregg Zaun, Alex Rios is so much improved upon.

Unfortunately this time around we don't have Matt Stairs and his .917 OPS off the bench though :P

Farsight
03-16-2012, 03:08 PM
The difference is this team is actually good with the deepest farm in baseball. Our old core of Vernon Wells, Aaron Hill, Troy Glaus, Gregg Zaun, Alex Rios is so much improved upon.

Unfortunately this time around we don't have Matt Stairs and his .917 OPS off the bench though :P Hes probably one of my all time favourite players, but defensively he was just awful... I cant believe that he was actually drafted as an SS and converted to the outfield. If Matt Stairs could be reincarnated as a young 24-25 year old with average defense i would love him on our team, If he was still horrible Defensively, than i'd put him as a DH. Also a player with his offensive production was not as valuable in the 90's as it would be right now, as we are in a pitching era

Cooshman
03-16-2012, 11:58 PM
I wonder if AA can double as the Leafs GM too??!!

mtf
03-17-2012, 01:46 AM
Other players/teams do, it's too bad a lot of our own fan base doesn't :(

Actually, the section of the fan base (who you like to take every opportunity to show your misunderstanding of) are mostly enthusiastic about the core of the team and the depth of prospects coming up. The part that frustrates us is the lack of commitment from management and ownership to augment that core with proven big league talent as Paul Beeston and Alex Anthopoulos said they would in years past.

It's an exciting team, but ya we're silly for wishing they would take the next step I guess. We should just predict 95 wins, and when they end with 80-85 simply mourn the fact that the Blue Jays reside within the toughest division in baseball and in any other division it'd be a playoff team. That'd help us fit into the rest of the herd right? Conformity is everything, after all.

AA09-?
03-17-2012, 04:55 PM
I wonder if AA can double as the Leafs GM too??!!

If only it worked that way.

wamco
03-17-2012, 05:53 PM
actually, the section of the fan base (who you like to take every opportunity to show your misunderstanding of) are mostly enthusiastic about the core of the team and the depth of prospects coming up. The part that frustrates us is the lack of commitment from management and ownership to augment that core with proven big league talent as paul beeston and alex anthopoulos said they would in years past.

It's an exciting team, but ya we're silly for wishing they would take the next step i guess. We should just predict 95 wins, and when they end with 80-85 simply mourn the fact that the blue jays reside within the toughest division in baseball and in any other division it'd be a playoff team. That'd help us fit into the rest of the herd right? Conformity is everything, after all.

x200

JaysFan87
03-17-2012, 06:34 PM
Another thread gone...

JaysFan87
03-17-2012, 06:56 PM
Actually, the section of the fan base (who you like to take every opportunity to show your misunderstanding of) are mostly enthusiastic about the core of the team and the depth of prospects coming up. The part that frustrates us is the lack of commitment from management and ownership to augment that core with proven big league talent as Paul Beeston and Alex Anthopoulos said they would in years past.

It's an exciting team, but ya we're silly for wishing they would take the next step I guess. We should just predict 95 wins, and when they end with 80-85 simply mourn the fact that the Blue Jays reside within the toughest division in baseball and in any other division it'd be a playoff team. That'd help us fit into the rest of the herd right? Conformity is everything, after all.

I think people forget for all the hype and promise this team shows the one underlying factor in all the hype is that they are still extremely young. The team in 2 short years has moved from an aging MLB team and lack of high ceiling talent in the minors to a team with a good group of good young players with a farm system that is filled with high ceiling and high floor talent. But as much as you and me for that matter want a good team the fact is that you really don't know how good these players are. The only guarantees on this team is Bautista, Romero, Escobar and to some extent Johnson. Everyone else, Arencibia, Lawrie, Rasmus, Thames, Snider, 2-5 in the rotation all have the skills to be very good to great MLB players but all of them have less than 2 years experience in the majors OR are hoping to have some sort of bounce back year. The hope is that these players continue to grow and become consistent MLB players but its hard to justify going out to spend on 1 or 2 huge FA when you cant with some accuracy project out what half your starters are going to produce.


As for the "commitment" issue you have with this team. The major league team is heading into the season with a roughly 80M payroll which is not chump change. ANd if those said players do develop as the hope especially Lawrie and Rasmus all of them will likely get a significant raise as they enter arbitration but mroe likely thorugh contract extensions like ones signed by Romero, Lind, Escobar, Morrow which is going to get expensive and likely push payroll near the 100M which should make people happy around here since money seems to be the only way a team can be committed to winning.

Obviously I do not know everything there is to know about baseball and none of us here do. But i find it really hard to fathom how almost every credible baseball journalist/executive praises how the jays right now look to be a credible, good team with the future (0-2 years) looking even better, yet in here it seems that this team is doom for years. I just dont get it.

wamco
03-17-2012, 07:16 PM
big difference between "doom for years" and "holy crap, there are 3 great franchises ahead of us IN OUR IN OWN DIVISION". hOW were we "an aging mlb team?" Then this offseason we sign a few guys with 40 as their average age...

JaysFan87
03-17-2012, 08:06 PM
big difference between "doom for years" and "holy crap, there are 3 great franchises ahead of us IN OUR IN OWN DIVISION". hOW were we "an aging mlb team?" Then this offseason we sign a few guys with 40 as their average age...

Your not going to pass those 3 teams without a great farm system or spending 200M. You can see which route they are taking. They were an old team that had players that had reached their ceiling or were deteriorating. Scutaro, Barajas, Overbay, Rolen were between 32-34 while the likes of Tallet and Richmond were the rotation. All those guys played prominent or were starters on the team. Yes they signed Oliver, Vizquel, and Cordero but those are BP arms who are are going to be here for 1 year and a utility IF. Apart from Bautista (31) and Jonhson (30) all the regulars in the lineup are under 30 and the rotation with guys who are young and highly skilled.


Nonetheless this team right now have playes that are very very skilled at every position and with a highly rated farm system that will produce some talent this team is definitely headed in the right direction. And yes I'm aware of not every prospect making it but when you have many of them there is a greater chance of more developing.

wamco
03-17-2012, 08:32 PM
bottomline, we still are a power hitting 1bman and stud sp away from contention.

AFlagRules
03-17-2012, 08:34 PM
These are all words, unfulfilled on the field of play yet.

mtf
03-18-2012, 12:36 AM
As for the "commitment" issue you have with this team. The major league team is heading into the season with a roughly 80M payroll which is not chump change. ANd if those said players do develop as the hope especially Lawrie and Rasmus all of them will likely get a significant raise as they enter arbitration but mroe likely thorugh contract extensions like ones signed by Romero, Lind, Escobar, Morrow which is going to get expensive and likely push payroll near the 100M which should make people happy around here since money seems to be the only way a team can be committed to winning.

I didn't really talk about money figures, so much as the commitment to augment the core of homegrown/acquired young talent with that of proven top players in their prime. 12 months ago, Beeston was talking about ownership potentially supporting a payroll of at least $120,000,000 annually and being the organization that goes out to acquire the Halladay-type talent that's available out there, instead of trading them away. That narrative seems to have fallen silent since the 2011 season ended.

nithanyo
03-18-2012, 12:58 AM
Most people want spending on the free agent front.

IMHO if we got Darvish or Prince we would have been "real" contenders this season. If we got both we would have been favs for a wild card spot

Like Wamco said, were a real ace and a true cleanup hitter to protect Bautista away from world series dreams

Twitchy
03-18-2012, 01:01 PM
I didn't really talk about money figures, so much as the commitment to augment the core of homegrown/acquired young talent with that of proven top players in their prime. 12 months ago, Beeston was talking about ownership potentially supporting a payroll of at least $120,000,000 annually and being the organization that goes out to acquire the Halladay-type talent that's available out there, instead of trading them away. That narrative seems to have fallen silent since the 2011 season ended.

Every successful team that has pumped their payroll has built up their payroll after their first strong year. I'm not arguing that the Jays can or can't support that payroll, but I wouldn't expect them to use this theoretical financial muscle until the Jays have a playoff calibre team.

The perfect example is Texas, who only pushed their payroll up after they made the WS in 2010. 64M in 2010, 92M in 2011, and 119M in 2012. You see the increases came after the success, not before it.

While you may feel the Jays should spend the money now to prove they have it, I wouldn't expect them to do so until they've made the playoffs. If they still haven't after that point, then you can criticize them. Until then though, it's not a fair argument.

wamco
03-18-2012, 01:26 PM
AL west, completely different.

Twitchy
03-18-2012, 02:01 PM
AL west, completely different.

But the concept is the same. It doesn't matter if you're in the AL East or the NL Central, you don't raise payroll significantly until after the team is winning.

And that's not just from a revenue stand point, but the fact the key FA that we all want them to sign won't show any interest in the Jays until they start winning. And we heard that time and time again this offseason.

JaysFan87
03-18-2012, 02:09 PM
AL west, completely different.

Who cares? Texas is as good if not better than the Yankees/Red Soxs/ Rays. I've always thought the AA is looking to build more like the PHillies/Rangers. Build your core, extended your core, add through trades.

nithanyo
03-18-2012, 03:53 PM
Texas plays in the west. Right off the bat they have an advantage with a smaller division. The 2010 rangers would not have faired so well in the east with the yanks, rays n red six pounding on them 54 times

The jays probably would have made the playoffs a few times in the last 15 years if we were in the west

Twitchy
03-18-2012, 04:05 PM
Texas plays in the west. Right off the bat they have an advantage with a smaller division. The 2010 rangers would not have faired so well in the east with the yanks, rays n red six pounding on them 54 times

The jays probably would have made the playoffs a few times in the last 15 years if we were in the west

The same 2010 Rangers who made the World Series, beat the Tampa Bay Rays in the ALDS AND The Yankees in the ALCS? Something tells me they'd be just fine against those guys.

They've been the best team in the AL for 2 straight years now. Let's not pretend that the AL East would slow them down.

wamco
03-18-2012, 04:12 PM
But the concept is the same. It doesn't matter if you're in the AL East or the NL Central, you don't raise payroll significantly until after the team is winning.

And that's not just from a revenue stand point, but the fact the key FA that we all want them to sign won't show any interest in the Jays until they start winning. And we heard that time and time again this offseason.

detroit did the opposite when they stunk with contracts like Ivan Rodriguez to lure players there. Kind of like what Washington has done as well with Werth

wamco
03-18-2012, 04:13 PM
Who cares? Texas is as good if not better than the Yankees/Red Soxs/ Rays. I've always thought the AA is looking to build more like the PHillies/Rangers. Build your core, extended your core, add through trades.

Difference being 3 of the best teams in baseball being in the AL East.

ah nuts
03-18-2012, 04:23 PM
if the Reds are at the bottom at the end of july... we have a lot to give.
ifs and buts etc etc....

es0terik
03-18-2012, 05:00 PM
Every successful team that has pumped their payroll has built up their payroll after their first strong year. I'm not arguing that the Jays can or can't support that payroll, but I wouldn't expect them to use this theoretical financial muscle until the Jays have a playoff calibre team.

The perfect example is Texas, who only pushed their payroll up after they made the WS in 2010. 64M in 2010, 92M in 2011, and 119M in 2012. You see the increases came after the success, not before it.

While you may feel the Jays should spend the money now to prove they have it, I wouldn't expect them to do so until they've made the playoffs. If they still haven't after that point, then you can criticize them. Until then though, it's not a fair argument.
EXACTLY. Look at the teams that went with this formula: Rangers, Phillies, Red Sox. Look where they are. Look at teams that did what you guys want the Jays to do, and that is, spend before they even achieved any success: Cubs, Twins, Dodgers. None of these teams have even made the world series since the Jays last did, and they consistently have massive payrolls. In recent years, the bulk of the teams that have made it that far or have shown great improvement are teams that weren't spending nearly as much as these guys. Look at the Rangers, the Rays, the Giants, the Rockies.

es0terik
03-18-2012, 05:00 PM
if the Reds are at the bottom at the end of july... we have a lot to give.
ifs and buts etc etc....

If the Reds are at the bottom end on July, they'll be devastated. They're going all in this year and if they're failing hard in July, I could easily see them trading away a couple of significant pieces.

Sanyo
03-18-2012, 05:06 PM
A balanced schedule will cure all -- the Jays would easily be favs in the NL Central and West. But yes in the AL East not so -- the AL is going to be tougher with both the Angels and Tigers beefing up and the Rays also bringing up some top talent like Matt Moore. But overall if the Jays (and not just them every other team though a balanced schedule helps the Jays more than any other team in the league).

All we can do is see how this re-build goes and how the prospects do when they get here -- the Jays have a deep enough system that even if 3 or 4 make it to solid above average players with almost 30 players in the system who could be top 10 in some other club's prospect list. Jays will also beef up this year with 5 picks in the first round (1st plus supplementary).

mtf
03-18-2012, 06:11 PM
Every successful team that has pumped their payroll has built up their payroll after their first strong year. I'm not arguing that the Jays can or can't support that payroll, but I wouldn't expect them to use this theoretical financial muscle until the Jays have a playoff calibre team.

The perfect example is Texas, who only pushed their payroll up after they made the WS in 2010. 64M in 2010, 92M in 2011, and 119M in 2012. You see the increases came after the success, not before it.

While you may feel the Jays should spend the money now to prove they have it, I wouldn't expect them to do so until they've made the playoffs. If they still haven't after that point, then you can criticize them. Until then though, it's not a fair argument.

That's all well and good for teams playing in random divisions with no rivals that are big spenders, in which case their core of talent can even grab a playoff spot on their own. However, the timeline is more about how developed your core is rather than how many wins they got in the previous season. Would you argue that the Jays core is less developed than the Rangers was in 2010? I think it's pretty comparable to when they went out and got Cliff Lee.

The Blue Jays are victims of their circumstances, and need to plan accordingling. Their core is ready, they time was this past off-season to augment that core with proven talent. As Gregg Zaun said (and I'm not particularly a fan of Zaun), you aren't going out to sign Prince Fielder on a 1 year deal, and when you want someone of his calibre, at his position, they likely won't be available on your timetable. 1B is arguably the biggest position of weakness around the diamond for the Blue Jays, and with Texiera, Gonzalez, Cabrera and now Pujols and Fielder all locked up long term, the one viable option remaining is Joey Votto, and there's no indication that within the 2 years remaining that he's under control by the Reds that he won't decide to simply resign there.

wamco
03-18-2012, 08:55 PM
Oh, i'm sure the tune would have been different if it were votto as a free agent rather than fielder.

ah nuts
03-18-2012, 09:13 PM
If the Reds are at the bottom end on July, they'll be devastated. They're going all in this year and if they're failing hard in July, I could easily see them trading away a couple of significant pieces.

and that could be what it will take that for them to trade away their MVP.

es0terik
03-18-2012, 11:20 PM
Oh, i'm sure the tune would have been different if it were votto as a free agent rather than fielder.

No, you see, most of us here aren't hypocrites. Unfortunately I can't say the same for everybody.

Halladay
03-18-2012, 11:43 PM
It's called the maple boner. A huge issue with Jays fans. It says on the commercials you should see your doctor if it lasts more than 4 hours.

wamco
03-18-2012, 11:49 PM
it's jason bay 2.0



GOODYEAR, Ariz. -- If the Blue Jays stick to their five-year maximum policy for player contracts, they can forget luring Reds superstar Joey Votto back home to Toronto when he's a free agent.

"It would be tough for a [top] position player to sign for five years. No matter how fond a person is of the city, players have to maximize the number of years,"Votto said. The thoughtful star explained that the best players should prioritize the length of the contract when they are in their prime because "teams aren't anxious to sign players who are 35 or 36 anymore.''


www.cbssports.com/mlb/blog/jon...very-long-deals

Nick O
03-20-2012, 09:22 AM
eh,, we look okay but were not a threat to big powers yet. for this year i see another solid performance but still a 4th place finish /:. 2 or 3 games over.. I really feel like we just need a couple key moves to get into a chance to contend for the playoffs.. but I can be optimistic..

MrForever
03-21-2012, 12:59 PM
it's jason bay 2.0



GOODYEAR, Ariz. -- If the Blue Jays stick to their five-year maximum policy for player contracts, they can forget luring Reds superstar Joey Votto back home to Toronto when he's a free agent.

"It would be tough for a [top] position player to sign for five years. No matter how fond a person is of the city, players have to maximize the number of years,"Votto said. The thoughtful star explained that the best players should prioritize the length of the contract when they are in their prime because "teams aren't anxious to sign players who are 35 or 36 anymore.''


www.cbssports.com/mlb/blog/jon...very-long-deals

Do we really need Joey Votto...?

Like, it would be cool and all, but if he doesn't appease to our contractual demands, then that's how it is. Reality is, we're stacked with power guys and 1B prospects. We already have Lind and Encarnacion. Cooper is a great up and comer and don;t forget D'Arnaud and Arencibia can play 1B.

Personally, I love Votto, but I love the idea of not getting trapped into astronomical contracts even more. I'm with AA on this 5 year plan.

2009mvp
03-21-2012, 01:21 PM
Do we really need Joey Votto...?

Like, it would be cool and all, but if he doesn't appease to our contractual demands, then that's how it is. Reality is, we're stacked with power guys and 1B prospects. We already have Lind and Encarnacion. Cooper is a great up and comer and don;t forget D'Arnaud and Arencibia can play 1B.

Personally, I love Votto, but I love the idea of not getting trapped into astronomical contracts even more. I'm with AA on this 5 year plan.

And between them you have 1 fringe MLB starting first baseman, and that only happens if you platoon Lind/EE. Not saying the team absolutely needs Votto specifically, but they most certainly need to upgrade at first if they plan to take the step from very good to great anytime soon.

MrForever
03-21-2012, 01:31 PM
And between them you have 1 fringe MLB starting first baseman, and that only happens if you platoon Lind/EE. Not saying the team absolutely needs Votto specifically, but they most certainly need to upgrade at first if they plan to take the step from very good to great anytime soon.

The step this team needs to become elite doesn't revolve around a power hitting 1b, it's Tim Lincecum or Matt Cain, or someone in that mould.

With the raw hitting strength the team has on the roster and in the system, Joey Votto would be nothing more than an embarrassment of riches. Adding a star ace like Cain or Lincecum would make Toronto one of the top teams in all of baseball, easily.

Cain
Romero
Morrow
Alvarez
McGuire

C - D'Arnaud/Arencibia
1b - Lind/Cooper
2b - Heck
SS - Escobar
3B - Lawrie
LF - Thames/Snider
CF - Rasmus/Gose
RF - Bautista
DH - EE/Lind/Thames/Arencibia

Love it.

2009mvp
03-21-2012, 01:45 PM
No one's saying it has to be either/or, the rotation obviously needs work as well. Point was, Lind isn't very good and there's absolutely nothing on the farm that even resembles an above average first baseman. Face it, outside of Bautista, Lawrie, and Escobar you're looking at average to below average offensively from every one of those positions right now (granted lots hinging on TDA/Snider/Rasmus), and that just isn't gonna cut it in this division.

Converged
03-21-2012, 02:38 PM
To your casual baseball fan, Lind is not that bad. My friends always love to reference his 30 HR and 90 RBIs, but that's all they see. To most fans who take an avid interest in baseball, it is clear that Adam Lind is an atrocious first baseman. If he could somehow return to 2009, I would be more than satisfied, but the truth is that pitchers have exploited his weaknesses. The guy looks plain silly trying to hit a breaking ball. I have a small glimmer of hope that he may find the adjustments he needs to become an average 1B, but that hope is fading. Eventually, we are going to have to cut out losses with him.

AA09-?
03-21-2012, 02:47 PM
Do we really need Joey Votto...?

Like, it would be cool and all, but if he doesn't appease to our contractual demands, then that's how it is. Reality is, we're stacked with power guys and 1B prospects. We already have Lind and Encarnacion. Cooper is a great up and comer and don;t forget D'Arnaud and Arencibia can play 1B.

Personally, I love Votto, but I love the idea of not getting trapped into astronomical contracts even more. I'm with AA on this 5 year plan.

:eyebrow::eyebrow::eyebrow:

AA09-?
03-21-2012, 02:49 PM
To your casual baseball fan, Lind is not that bad. My friends always love to reference his 30 HR and 90 RBIs, but that's all they see. To most fans who take an avid interest in baseball, it is clear that Adam Lind is an atrocious first baseman. If he could somehow return to 2009, I would be more than satisfied, but the truth is that pitchers have exploited his weaknesses. The guy looks plain silly trying to hit a breaking ball. I have a small glimmer of hope that he may find the adjustments he needs to become an average 1B, but that hope is fading. Eventually, we are going to have to cut out losses with him.

Completely agree with this.

ByShine
03-21-2012, 02:58 PM
all bark no bite

wamco
03-21-2012, 03:36 PM
cooper?

wamco
03-21-2012, 03:38 PM
http://blogs.thescore.com/mlb/...renner-edition/

On the Vernon Wells acquisition:

We felt that if he hits his average of 25 home runs, 80 to 90-plus RBIs, bats .260 to .280, you end up with a good player for four years at $16-plus million a year, [and] you’re not having to pay [a free agent for] a longer period of time. The book’s not closed on Vernon, you know. But that was the thought process.

Notice that Moreno quotes a $16 million figure, despite Wells being scheduled to receive $23 million last season, and then $21 million in each year from 2012 to 2014. Perhaps the Toronto Blue Jays are paying a rumoured $5 million extra per year over the life of the Wells contract. That same figure was tossed around shortly after the deal was first announced.


It would be nice to get some clarity on this once and for all. I mean, if we're paying $5M a year for Vernon, perhaps that's why our "high 80's" payroll figures quoted by AA and Beeston are seemingly out of whack with what we (the fans) perceive to be reality.

StealingSigns
03-21-2012, 03:45 PM
^ your link doesn't work

wamco
03-21-2012, 06:06 PM
URL Weaver: The New (Nice) Steinbrenner Edition

Posted by Dustin Parkes under Link Dump on Mar 21, 2012



Picture from GQ.

Driving through California on my recent vacation, I was struck by two things:

1) Along with baseball and jazz music, America should be recognized for contributing the Pacific Coast Highway or California One to the world’s list of awesome stuff. I’m honestly not normally one for scenery, but driving south from San Francisco to Los Angeles down the coast was likely the best time I’ve ever spent in the United States.

2) There are a heck of a lot of billboards in Southern California advertising the Los Angeles Angels of Anaheim, both with the controversial El Hombre tag and without. Later on my trip I learned that this is no coincidence, that Arte Moreno, the owner of the Angels, has billboard sales to thank for the origin of his considerable financial worth.



I also learned about something that doesn’t come up as much of an issue for baseball fans in Toronto, but is absolutely vital throughout the State of California: regional fan bases. Just as the Oakland Athletics and San Francisco Giants battle for fans in the Bay Area, the Los Angeles Dodgers have been attempting to swipe supporters from the San Diego Padres, while also engaged in a new battle with the Los Angeles Angels of Anaheim over territorial claims.

This is the topic that opens a fascinating feature in GQ Magazine on Moreno. The entire interview is worth reading, but here are some of the more interesting quotes from the Angels owner.

On winning new members to his team’s fan base:


A Dodgers fan is a Dodgers fan; they have fifty years of history in L.A. You know, when I came in, I started talking about marketing to 8-year-olds, and everybody thought I was nuts. Now those kids are 20 years old, right? So they’ve been watching, and for eight years we’ve been very successful. That changes the game. So if you’re saying, ‘Are you marketing to young people in the area?’ Yes, I am.

On speculation that Albert Pujols is actually older than he claims to be:


We would never go there. He’s been in the United States since he was 16. Somebody starts checking on your age you start wondering, Do we really want to have a relationship like this?

On Albert Pujols aging over the life of his contract with the team, confirming that MLB free agent contracts evaluate a player’s average worth over the life of the contract:


We don’t look at one player, we look at twenty-five on the roster or nine on the field, and you just say: If he plays within these averages for our team, his averages are so much higher than anyone else’s that is playing right now. If you do have some erosion—let’s call it seven to ten years of solid production, not superstar production—look what it still does for a franchise. If he’s healthy enough and he’s playing for us, then I’m gonna just say, ‘Merry Christmas to all baseball fans,’ because we get to see one of the best players of our generation coming to bat.

On the Vernon Wells acquisition:


We felt that if he hits his average of 25 home runs, 80 to 90-plus RBIs, bats .260 to .280, you end up with a good player for four years at $16-plus million a year, [and] you’re not having to pay [a free agent for] a longer period of time. The book’s not closed on Vernon, you know. But that was the thought process.

Notice that Moreno quotes a $16 million figure, despite Wells being scheduled to receive $23 million last season, and then $21 million in each year from 2012 to 2014. Perhaps the Toronto Blue Jays are paying a rumoured $5 million extra per year over the life of the Wells contract. That same figure was tossed around shortly after the deal was first announced.

And The Rest

From defensive metrics to everyone’s love of Roy Halladay, here are the top ten things I learned while at the SABR Analytics Conference last weekend. [Getting Blanked]

I spoke with Matt Kory last night about the Toronto Blue Jays for his massive AL East preview podcast. I’m pretty sure I didn’t once mention Jose Bautista. Seriously. [Over The Monster]

Just because the lawsuit is over, it doesn’t mean that the New York Mets can start spending. [New York Post]

How exactly do the San Francisco Giants justify rushing Emmanuel Burriss to the Major Leagues while waiting so long to give Brandon Belt a regular job? [McCovey Chronicles]

The Baltimore Orioles are taking a shot on Dontrelle Willis with a Minor League contract (of course, they are), but there could be some method to their madness, especially if they plan on converting him into a reliever. [Camden Depot]

Johnny Damon is the best player in baseball without a job. [SI.com]

The Kansas City Royals trade with the Houston Astros is every bit as exciting as one would imagine: Catcher Humberto Quintero and outfielder Jason Bourgeois to Kansas City for minor league pitcher Kevin Chapman and a player to be named later from Houston. [Royals Review]

J.D. Martinez of the Houston Astros would like to be pushed to his physical limits. [Ultimate Astros]

Texas Rangers converted starter Neftali Feliz left his start early with shoulder stiffness. [MLB.com]

The San Diego Padres signed catcher Nick Hundley to an extension that will keep him with the team until 2014, with a club option for 2015. [Gaslamp Ball]

Today in excess: A five pound fish sandwich to be served at Minor League Baseball games. [MILB.com]

Could Travis Snider be the next Jose Bautista? [DJF]

Speaking of Snider, there are some rumours that Matt Stairs had some critical things to say about Cito Gaston’s treatment of the prospect during his last tenure as manager in Toronto. [DJF]

Bill James talks about hockey stats. Sure. Why not? [Edmonton Journal]

Chili Davis is a man on a mission for the Oakland A’s. [ChicoER.com]

2009mvp
03-22-2012, 12:01 AM
Well I'll be damned. It would add up were it true (especially since the reported $5M was never totally confirmed), just doesn't make any sense why both sides refused to make it public.

wamco
03-22-2012, 07:02 AM
i thought only AA was denying it at the time