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View Full Version : OKC turns down Howard for Ibaka & Harden



cyph34
03-11-2012, 04:46 PM
I don't know that might be a pretty good deal for OKC, tho they could then trade Perk for a PF who can shoot a little bit. Howard would immediately open up 3's for Daequan Cook and Thabo. But then again it might mess up chemistry...

http://kansascity.sbnation.com/oklahoma-city-thunder/2012/3/9/2857673/dwight-howard-trade-rumors-james-harden-and-serge-ibaka-too-much-for

cyph34
03-11-2012, 04:47 PM
And source:

******.com

D1JM
03-11-2012, 04:48 PM
To rent Howard, No

Hawkeye15
03-11-2012, 04:49 PM
OKC has a championship caliber team. No need to mess with what they have. Ibaka is a future DPOY, and Harden is slowly becoming the next Manu. Both are young as well.

I would have turned it down as well.

justinnum1
03-11-2012, 04:49 PM
i dont believe it

CubbySwag313
03-11-2012, 04:50 PM
Not a bad a deal....only if Howard signs the extension

cyph34
03-11-2012, 04:51 PM
http://kansascity.sbnation.com/oklahoma-city-thunder/2012/3/9/2857673/dwight-howard-trade-rumors-james-harden-and-serge-ibaka-too-much-for

waveycrockett
03-11-2012, 04:52 PM
I doubt that was offered but anyway if I'm OKC I reject that trade also

ManRam
03-11-2012, 04:52 PM
Makes sense. He could take them over the top (they'd have no bench...and if he left that sets them back a lot)...but it's too big of a gamble. They have a GREAT thing going for them...no reason to take a gamble like this.

h2r09
03-11-2012, 04:52 PM
i would say choose 1 of harden and ibaka, add thabo, perk and 1 more bench player and i will do it if I'm the thunder

b@llhog24
03-11-2012, 04:53 PM
If it was Westbrooke and Ibaka then I would've done it.

BSardogan
03-11-2012, 04:59 PM
Wow, that would have been quite a trade. Howard, Durant & Westbrook is a 'legit' Big Three, lol. But I think it's mainly due to the fact it would in reality be a ''Rent Dwight Howard for 3 months and hope he resigns'' for Ibaka & Harden, that has been the reason for OKC not to go for this one. Also Harden has been balling lately, they are destroying everyone with Harden getting 30 ppg along with KD and WB, whereas Ibaka has been getting crazy amounts of blocks every game ever since this season started.

It could have worked, both teams trading for a lot of talent, but I think OKC felt as if it was too much of a risk, and I can't disagree with them on that. Years of tanking and team-building could all have been thrown away with a single trade. Maybe if Orlando is willing to accept less, e.g either one of Harden/Ibaka along with Perkins, filler and a draft pick, it could work. But I don't see Orlando taking that package if they feel like they actually want to make a run in the playoffs this year. How about Westbrook, Perkins for Howard (and of course the insurance that he would actually resign for OKC)

ManRam
03-11-2012, 04:59 PM
If it was Westbrooke and Ibaka then I would've done it.

That's silly. Who plays PG?

Corey
03-11-2012, 05:00 PM
One of Harden/Ibaka + Perkins.

No way Id do Harden + Ibaka if I was OKC

b@llhog24
03-11-2012, 05:01 PM
That's silly. Who plays PG?

Assuming Maynor is healthy he'd be and adequate Pg with that type of Talent.

bholly
03-11-2012, 05:01 PM
Um, that's about $10m away from working, salary-wise. Either it also involved Perkins+ or three or four bench guys (which would've been reported), or this is ********. See if you can guess which...

Green_Monster
03-11-2012, 05:03 PM
Harden, Perk, and a 1st for Howard.

John Walls Era
03-11-2012, 05:04 PM
If they can guarantee he resigns then OKC should do it (to that^^^)

waveycrockett
03-11-2012, 05:06 PM
Assuming Maynor is healthy he'd be and adequate Pg with that type of Talent.

I'm pretty sure Maynor is out the year. And no GM in their right mind would give up a budding young superstar and another future allstar in Harden for 2 months of Dwight Howard.

MagicBucsSox
03-11-2012, 05:08 PM
That would've been a trash trade. And how does an non offer get rejected lmao

valade16
03-11-2012, 05:09 PM
I assume the people saying no to the trade are doing so because Howard won't extend because if he does extend then, and no offense, you're all idiots if you say no to Harden/Ibaka for Howard.

The best defensive player in the game plus the best offensive player in the game plus one of the best PGs in the league?

MagicBucsSox
03-11-2012, 05:09 PM
Harden, Perk, and a 1st for Howard.

Lmao so a top 3 player for 2 non top 20 players and a crap pick. You ppl need to realize if a 1st rder and lotterythen it's crap. This isn't the nfl

JustinLafferty
03-11-2012, 05:11 PM
If I was OKC, I would take the risk and trade Harden + Ibaka for Dwight....The only problem is the salaries don't match up and I'm not sure how they'd resolve that.... but I don't think OKC will win a title as currently constructed...Who's there post player to prevent them from becoming just a jump shooting in the playoffs? I just don't see it... Even if they win one they won't win more.... With Howard you are trading for a potential dynasty if he resigns... You take that risk for a PF avg less than 10 a game and Harden any day imo. Don't get me wrong Ibaka and Harden are good but they are trading from an area of depth with Harden to get the best C in the game... You do it if he indicates he'll consider staying... Are we to believe Howard will not wanna play with Westbrook and Durant long term?

b@llhog24
03-11-2012, 05:13 PM
I'm pretty sure Maynor is out the year. And no GM in their right mind would give up a budding young superstar and another future allstar in Harden for 2 months of Dwight Howard.

I'm talking with and extention in place of course. And my proposal had Westbrooke and Perk going rather than Ibaka.

waveycrockett
03-11-2012, 05:14 PM
Lmao so a top 3 player for 2 non top 20 players and a crap pick. You ppl need to realize if a 1st rder and lotterythen it's crap. This isn't the nfl

2 months of Dwight Howard isn't worth those guys.

valade16
03-11-2012, 05:14 PM
I'm pretty sure Maynor is out the year. And no GM in their right mind would give up a budding young superstar and another future allstar in Harden for 2 months of Dwight Howard.

Superstar? :laugh: this isn't NBA 2K12 where players just go up and up. Ibaka will never be a superstar, yeah he's go good D and can block but C'mon.

Green_Monster
03-11-2012, 05:19 PM
Lmao so a top 3 player for 2 non top 20 players and a crap pick. You ppl need to realize if a 1st rder and lotterythen it's crap. This isn't the nfl

No way OKC would trade Ibaka and Harden. Magic have no leverage right now. He leaves either way.

Baller1
03-11-2012, 05:22 PM
Lmao so a top 3 player for 2 non top 20 players and a crap pick. You ppl need to realize if a 1st rder and lotterythen it's crap. This isn't the nfl

How can any logical Magic fan actually disagree with this trade. You won't find more talent for Dwight than Harden and Ibaka. You're insane.

Glad OKC turned this down. Orlando can have one, not both.

MagicBucsSox
03-11-2012, 05:23 PM
It's a bad trade both ways

homestarunner93
03-11-2012, 05:23 PM
Lmao so a top 3 player for 2 non top 20 players and a crap pick. You ppl need to realize if a 1st rder and lotterythen it's crap. This isn't the nfl

You do realize Dwight is willing to walk after the season, right? The Magic don't really have that much leverage.

waveycrockett
03-11-2012, 05:23 PM
Superstar? :laugh: this isn't NBA 2K12 where players just go up and up. Ibaka will never be a superstar, yeah he's go good D and can block but C'mon.

The poster I was responding to had Westbrook in the deal.

Sportfan
03-11-2012, 05:24 PM
That's silly. Who plays PG?
Harden


Harden is more valuable than Dwight anyway so good job turning it down OKC


although now i wish it happend so harden can shine and be the 30 ppg scorer he can be

MagicBucsSox
03-11-2012, 05:24 PM
How can any logical Magic fan actually disagree with this trade. You won't find more talent for Dwight than Harden and Ibaka. You're insane.

Glad OKC turned this down. Orlando can have one, not both.

Wtf are u seriously talking about

MagicBucsSox
03-11-2012, 05:25 PM
Harden


Harden is more valuable than Dwight anyway so good job turning it down OKC


although now i wish it happend so harden can shine and be the 30 ppg scorer he can be

Lmao your mom drank while pregnant with u

Green_Monster
03-11-2012, 05:28 PM
Superstar? :laugh: this isn't NBA 2K12 where players just go up and up. Ibaka will never be a superstar, yeah he's go good D and can block but C'mon.

He's only 22!

Hellcrooner
03-11-2012, 05:28 PM
are they stupid?

Hellcrooner
03-11-2012, 05:29 PM
if they offer the same package to Lakers for Pau, they may get a deal tough.....

Westbrook, Sefolosha, Durant, Pau, Perkins.

Wtf!!!

da ThRONe
03-11-2012, 05:31 PM
I'm not buying this. If OKC could put Howard with Durant and Westbrook I don't see them passing that up even if it cost them Ibaka and Harden.

kjoke
03-11-2012, 05:34 PM
if they offer the same package to Lakers for Pau, they may get a deal tough.....

Westbrook, Sefolosha, Durant, Pau, Perkins.

Wtf!!!

You know that OKC was the one that turned it down? If they won't do Ibaka and Harden for Howard, why would they for Pau?

Jarvo
03-11-2012, 05:34 PM
I wouldnt do that trade either dont mess up what you have going on over there in okc

Master Mind
03-11-2012, 05:36 PM
OKC have absolutely no low post offense, I would have done this in a heart beat

b@llhog24
03-11-2012, 05:37 PM
if they offer the same package to Lakers for Pau, they may get a deal tough.....

Westbrook, Sefolosha, Durant, Pau, Perkins.

Wtf!!!

Mitch Kupchak is that you?

Baller1
03-11-2012, 05:39 PM
Wtf are u seriously talking about

I'm talking about Ibaka and Harden not being worth giving up for Dwight. Magic fans should/would be salivating if this were to happen.

justinnum1
03-11-2012, 05:47 PM
but dwight wants to be the #1 option. Hes going to NY

valade16
03-11-2012, 05:48 PM
He's only 22!

Trust me, I'm a Blazers fan and I've seen it with Batum. They are both good young players but will fall drastically short of the superstar predictions; I guarantee it.

assisi805
03-11-2012, 05:49 PM
No! No! No!.... Already a championship contending team don't need to throw two key pieces away for a rental! Now if it was Westbrook and Perk +____ and Dwight signed an extension maybe since Harden is the best passer on the team and could run point, but thats just not gonna happen so i'm just fine with this team.

koetravis
03-11-2012, 05:51 PM
Westbrook/Perkins for Howard. Would work well for both teams.

KnicksorBust
03-11-2012, 05:54 PM
This honestly seems like the most fair trade possible for both teams. OKC would win at least 3 rings in the next 8 seasons with that trio and Orlando would have two very talented pieces to build around. Howard needs to man up and say he'd sign long-term with OKC and make this happen. It would take his legacy to a new level playing with Westbrook-Durant.

Hellcrooner
03-11-2012, 05:54 PM
You know that OKC was the one that turned it down? If they won't do Ibaka and Harden for Howard, why would they for Pau?

Howard CAN and MAy walk out after the season ( i would take the risk anyway) and would force them to try to trade Perkins for either an Sg or a Pf.

Pau CANT walk after the season and they woudlnt need to move jack
Westbrook, Sefolosha, Durant, Gasol, Perkins.

thats WHy they MIGHT consider a lakers offer better over the dwight one.

Obviously if Howard commited to sign the extension i think its fairly to assume the trade woudl ahve been done already.

KnicksorBust
03-11-2012, 05:57 PM
Howard CAN and MAy walk out after the season ( i would take the risk anyway) and would force them to try to trade Perkins for either an Sg or a Pf.

Pau CANT walk after the season and they woudlnt need to move jack
Westbrook, Sefolosha, Durant, Gasol, Perkins.

thats WHy they MIGHT consider a lakers offer better over the dwight one.

Obviously if Howard commited to sign the extension i think its fairly to assume the trade woudl ahve been done already.

Howard makes them better long-term but Pau would be the perfect fit. An unselfish low-post player? Talk about filling a square hole with a square peg.

Bruno
03-11-2012, 05:58 PM
BS.

that link isn't valid. OKC would have done that in a heart-beat if the salaries matched up, which they don't.

JustinLafferty
03-11-2012, 05:59 PM
Howard CAN and MAy walk out after the season ( i would take the risk anyway) and would force them to try to trade Perkins for either an Sg or a Pf.

Obviously if Howard commited to sign the extension i think its fairly to assume the trade woudl ahve been done already.

If I'm Orlando and Dwight agrees to sign an extension I'm asking for Westbrook and Harden for Jameer/Dwight (maybe Redick) and find some way to match up the salaries.....Him agreeing to resign with them or not opt out for this year and next brings a completely bigger haul than just Harden and Ibaka imo....

akagiredsuns
03-11-2012, 06:00 PM
Trading Westbrook would be stupid at this point. If something ain't broke don't fix it. Nice to see though ORL is trying to deal DH12 after it was said that Otis Smith was not taking trades for Dwight Howard but for teams wanting to give their players to him. ORL is going down.

JustinLafferty
03-11-2012, 06:04 PM
Trading Westbrook would be stupid at this point. If something ain't broke don't fix it. Nice to see though ORL is trying to deal DH12 after it was said that Otis Smith was not taking trades for Dwight Howard but for teams wanting to give their players to him. ORL is going down.

It is broke though and the Thunder just havent butted their heads up against the wall for 5 years to find that out.... They don't have a low post scorer... They will be lucky to win a championship....

MrfadeawayJB
03-11-2012, 06:04 PM
Not sure if this is real, but if it was why wouldnt OKC entertain this. Ibaka and Harden will only be around for a few more years because they will both sign elsewhere for the big bucks

ChiSox219
03-11-2012, 06:06 PM
Westbrook/Perkins for Howard. Would work well for both teams.

makes a lot of sense for everyone

Baller1
03-11-2012, 06:12 PM
Ibaka and Dwight holding down the paint together... :drool:

alencp3
03-11-2012, 06:25 PM
Harden is the next Manu on steroids with the best beard in Nba that sells tickets.
So this trade is invalid, doesnt matter how good this Dwight kid is.

ChiSox219
03-11-2012, 06:37 PM
Ibaka and Dwight holding down the paint together... :drool:

Lebron might as well go play football

Green_Monster
03-11-2012, 06:39 PM
Rondo for Westbrook

Harden, Perkins, 1st for Howard

Rondo
Cook
Durant
Ibaka
Howard

Imagine Rondo feeding all of those guys the ball!

The_Jamal
03-11-2012, 06:42 PM
I'd jump all over this for an extended Howard. They could flip Perk for depth, and still have a solid core with Thabo, Maynor, Cook, Collison around those Durant/Westbrook/Howard. I don't care how good your team is, you don't pass up a chance to pair 2 top 4 players in the NBA who are just entering their prime.

justinnum1
03-11-2012, 06:43 PM
if dwight is traded, turk is going with him, and maybe another bad contract, duhon?

Raph12
03-11-2012, 06:43 PM
It was for a rental, the same source (Royce) said things would be "considerably different" if he committed longterm.

C-Style
03-11-2012, 06:43 PM
Dwight>>>>Harden + Ibaka

Blitzbolt
03-11-2012, 06:47 PM
I think the Thunder might lose one or both next year.Because of cap Issues but I'm not sure.

Baller1
03-11-2012, 06:47 PM
Dwight>>>>Harden + Ibaka

Wrong.

MJ-BULLS
03-11-2012, 06:48 PM
good for the thunder.

Baller1
03-11-2012, 06:48 PM
I think the Thunder might lose one or both next year.Because of cap Issues but I'm not sure.

We can keep both, but we'd most likely be forced to amnesty Perk.

GodsSon
03-11-2012, 06:50 PM
Otis Smith was being greedy

Mcdoh
03-11-2012, 06:53 PM
if i was okc i wouldnt give up harden/ibaka.. 2 of their best player..

MagicBucsSox
03-11-2012, 06:53 PM
I'm talking about Ibaka and Harden not being worth giving up for Dwight. Magic fans should/would be salivating if this were to happen.

Please don't post again

Baller1
03-11-2012, 06:56 PM
Please don't post again

:laugh2:

I kinda hope Dwight walks for nothing just so you can eat crow. Like I said earlier, LOGICAL Magic fans would most likely be salivating at the thought of Harden and Ibaka coming in return for Dwight.

ManRam
03-11-2012, 06:56 PM
Harden


Harden is more valuable than Dwight anyway so good job turning it down OKC


although now i wish it happend so harden can shine and be the 30 ppg scorer he can be

I guess Harden could...but again, that would kill their bench completely.

Harden being more valuable than Dwight...IDK about that.

Teeboy1487
03-11-2012, 06:58 PM
I hate Howard. I would jump at the chance to play with Westbrook and Durant. Honesty, I'm glad OKC turned them down. They are fine and they will contend for the next 5 to 7 years without Dwight. They don't need him.

Baller1
03-11-2012, 06:59 PM
I guess Harden could...but again, that would kill their bench completely.

Harden being more valuable than Dwight...IDK about that.

Yeah, that's obviously not true. Not even close.

I do think Harden would shine as the go-to scorer though. And Ibaka is the perfect player to replace Dwight as the man in the paint.

The_Jamal
03-11-2012, 07:00 PM
I'm talking about Ibaka and Harden not being worth giving up for Dwight. Magic fans should/would be salivating if this were to happen.

I agree if Dwight is a rental and doesn't agree to an extension. But A Dwight locked up for 4-5 years with Durant/Westbrook is the Thunder ******** all over the league for that time span. Pairing Durant and Dwight would just be.... flat out unfair.

Bruno
03-11-2012, 07:02 PM
Howard/Durant with either Harden or WB is a dynasty. OKC hasn't won jack, Howard wouldn't have to worry about the "it's not his team" BS. Howard and Durant, with one of the little guards would rack titles and out-do Miami as the leagues next dynasty, imo. all OKC would need to pull the trigger on this deal is howard to accept a sign and trade.

Baller1
03-11-2012, 07:02 PM
I agree if Dwight is a rental and doesn't agree to an extension. But A Dwight locked up for 4-5 years with Durant/Westbrook is the Thunder ******** all over the league for that time span. Pairing Durant and Dwight would just be.... flat out unfair.

Trust me, I would be the last person to complain if something like this happened (with a locked up Dwight of course). Assuming he signed, it's a win-win. Either way we will be contenders.

Celtic5
03-11-2012, 07:08 PM
I agree if Dwight is a rental and doesn't agree to an extension. But A Dwight locked up for 4-5 years with Durant/Westbrook is the Thunder ******** all over the league for that time span. Pairing Durant and Dwight would just be.... flat out unfair.

This. I would trade perk, ibaka, and harden if that meant I could have westbrook howard and Durant for the next five years.

KnicksorBust
03-11-2012, 07:10 PM
Howard/Durant with either Harden or WB is a dynasty. OKC hasn't won jack, Howard wouldn't have to worry about the "it's not his team" BS. Howard and Durant, with one of the little guards would rack titles and out-do Miami as the leagues next dynasty, imo. all OKC would need to pull the trigger on this deal is howard to accept a sign and trade.

That's the amazing thing about it. It basically guarantees OKC titles and yet it would be a great deal for the Magic as well. OKC is the only team in the league that is this talented and can put together a package of young/cheap players that would help Orlando rebuild.

It makes sense all around. I hope it happens.

YEDN90
03-11-2012, 07:14 PM
Good for the Thunder, they'll be a competitive team for YEARS without Howard

waveycrockett
03-11-2012, 07:14 PM
That's the amazing thing about it. It basically guarantees OKC titles and yet it would be a great deal for the Magic as well. OKC is the only team in the league that is this talented and can put together a package of young/cheap players that would help Orlando rebuild.

It makes sense all around. I hope it happens.

First of all it doesn't guarantee OKC a damn thing. See The BIG 3 in Miami last year who is better than a Big-3 of Durant, Howard and Westy and second of all it would at best give them a shot to win it this year and that's it because no chance he is re-upping in Oklahoma after what Adidas is offering him if he goes to a big market.

shep33
03-11-2012, 07:19 PM
Ibaka + Harden are great young players. Also cheaper players, even when you combine both their contracts, its still far less than Howard's.

KB-Pau-DH2012
03-11-2012, 07:22 PM
On March 15th, 2012 at 3:01 pm Eastern Time, 12:01 pm Pacific Time, no one will care about Dwight Howard anymore. ;)

Iron24th
03-11-2012, 07:24 PM
And what was Orlando's advantage in this deal???

naps
03-11-2012, 07:25 PM
Harden is the future best shooting guard in the league hands down. He's going to be a superstar soon. What he's been doing from bench is incredible. It does sound too much when you hear Harden and Ibaka both. But I would do it if I was OKC though. Westbrook-Durant-Dwight sounds too good not to do it.

Green_Monster
03-11-2012, 07:26 PM
First of all it doesn't guarantee OKC a damn thing. See The BIG 3 in Miami last year who is better than a Big-3 of Durant, Howard and Westy and second of all it would at best give them a shot to win it this year and that's it because no chance he is re-upping in Oklahoma after what Adidas is offering him if he goes to a big market.

I don't know about that. Plus, I perfer a PG, SF, C core more than a SG, SF, PF core.

Baller1
03-11-2012, 07:29 PM
First of all it doesn't guarantee OKC a damn thing. See The BIG 3 in Miami last year who is better than a Big-3 of Durant, Howard and Westy and second of all it would at best give them a shot to win it this year and that's it because no chance he is re-upping in Oklahoma after what Adidas is offering him if he goes to a big market.

I don't know about that.

Green_Monster
03-11-2012, 07:35 PM
First of all it doesn't guarantee OKC a damn thing. See The BIG 3 in Miami last year who is better than a Big-3 of Durant, Howard and Westy and second of all it would at best give them a shot to win it this year and that's it because no chance he is re-upping in Oklahoma after what Adidas is offering him if he goes to a big market.


I don't know about that. Plus, I perfer a PG, SF, C core more than a SG, SF, PF core.


I don't know about that.

:)

KnicksorBust
03-11-2012, 07:36 PM
First of all it doesn't guarantee OKC a damn thing. See The BIG 3 in Miami last year who is better than a Big-3 of Durant, Howard and Westy and second of all it would at best give them a shot to win it this year and that's it because no chance he is re-upping in Oklahoma after what Adidas is offering him if he goes to a big market.

The Celtics won a title the first year with their big 3. The Heat were 2 wins away from winning a title and are basically auto-playing themselves to the ECF every year for the next half-decade. That example proves nothing to me except that the Thunder will be ridiculously successful immediately.


I don't know about that. Plus, I perfer a PG, SF, C core more than a SG, SF, PF core.

Yup.


I don't know about that.

It's a great debate but one not worth having until it happens.

Baller1
03-11-2012, 07:37 PM
:)

Oops, haha.

tredigs
03-11-2012, 07:40 PM
First of all it doesn't guarantee OKC a damn thing. See The BIG 3 in Miami last year who is better than a Big-3 of Durant, Howard and Westy and second of all it would at best give them a shot to win it this year and that's it because no chance he is re-upping in Oklahoma after what Adidas is offering him if he goes to a big market.

It's not better in the least. Skill wise it's close (though I'd take Westbrook/Durant/Howard even there due to age and lack of injuries), but as a team it is always best to have an elite PG/wing/Center if you have the opportunity.

You're right that it wouldn't guarantee a thing, but it's a better core 3 than what Miami has, or virtually any team in history has had.

That said, no way you agree to the deal unless Howard signs, and even then I'm not sure if it's worth breaking up the chemistry this team has. Ibaka and Harden are both absolute beasts and younger than 23, it doesn't surprise me that the Magic would go after that tandem.

PhillyFaninLA
03-11-2012, 07:42 PM
I don't know that might be a pretty good deal for OKC, tho they could then trade Perk for a PF who can shoot a little bit. Howard would immediately open up 3's for Daequan Cook and Thabo. But then again it might mess up chemistry...

OKC is having a great year. They are one of the best teams in the league and really young. Why would they mess with there chemistry.

The goods
03-11-2012, 07:46 PM
I'd take it if howard would sign an extension,to me howard is stupid if he doesn't want to play their him durant,and westbrook would own the league.

waveycrockett
03-11-2012, 07:49 PM
I don't know about that. Plus, I perfer a PG, SF, C core more than a SG, SF, PF core.

Westy isn't a true PG. He takes 20 shots a game. Dwight isn't going to get his touches and further just by the fact that it's close between them and the Heat proves that trading for Dwight doesn't guarantee them a chip and they'd be screwing over their future once Dwight leaves in the summer because no way in hell he is stay in Oklahoma.

Jewelz0376
03-11-2012, 07:56 PM
When I first saw this I thought OKC is NUTS to turn this down...but now that I think about it I can understand Okc turning it down...Although if I were okc and d12 agreed to sign an extension I would go ahead and do the deal... Durant/WB/D12 would be a crazy trio for a decade because they are so young...

ChiSox219
03-11-2012, 07:57 PM
:laugh2:

I kinda hope Dwight walks for nothing just so you can eat crow. Like I said earlier, LOGICAL Magic fans would most likely be salivating at the thought of Harden and Ibaka coming in return for Dwight.

me too


OKC is having a great year. They are one of the best teams in the league and really young. Why would they mess with there chemistry.

There have been a lot of teams with great records and chemistry that have failed to win ships and were broken up. In this era of stars jumping ship it is imperative that teams make every move possible to put themselves in a position to win.

WeaponXXX
03-11-2012, 07:57 PM
West brook and perk and first round pick for Howard. Ensure he signs an extension then play out the season and get Steve nash .

smith&wesson
03-11-2012, 08:01 PM
dumb, harden and ibaka are good. but they arent that good.

howard
perkins
durant
sefalosha
westbrook

i see 2 guys who can score at will, 2 moster defenders protecting the paint and a role player in sefalosha. thats a solid starting 5. i dont see any one in the west competing with that.

NFLNBA
03-11-2012, 08:20 PM
dumb, harden and ibaka are good. but they arent that good.

howard
perkins
durant
sefalosha
westbrook

i see 2 guys who can score at will, 2 moster defenders protecting the paint and a role player in sefalosha. thats a solid starting 5. i dont see any one in the west competing with that.

Perkins at the PF? Ibaka is a better shot blocker the Howard now days it seems or on that same level and he can hit the 12-15 footer and Harden is a monster! They are already the best team in west and NBA imo so why mess with it? Howard is a baby

B'sCeltsPatsSox
03-11-2012, 08:38 PM
On March 15th, 2012 at 3:01 pm Eastern Time, 12:01 pm Pacific Time, no one will care about Dwight Howard anymore. ;)

Probably not until St.Patty's day at the earliest will be when people start caring about Dwight.

oballerc75
03-11-2012, 08:51 PM
a core of westbrook durant and dwight would be the most complete big 3 in nba history... no way OKC passes this oppurtinity up, i dont beleive the offer.

Raph12
03-11-2012, 08:57 PM
It's not better in the least. Skill wise it's close (though I'd take Westbrook/Durant/Howard even there due to age and lack of injuries), but as a team it is always best to have an elite PG/wing/Center if you have the opportunity.

You're right that it wouldn't guarantee a thing, but it's a better core 3 than what Miami has, or virtually any team in history has had.

That said, no way you agree to the deal unless Howard signs, and even then I'm not sure if it's worth breaking up the chemistry this team has. Ibaka and Harden are both absolute beasts and younger than 23, it doesn't surprise me that the Magic would go after that tandem.

Problem is, teams will throw big money at Harden and Ibaka in 2013; can the Thunder afford to match for both?... Although I agree that trading for Dwight without a commitment is just stupid.

Mr_Amaziing
03-11-2012, 09:09 PM
I would trade Harden and Perkins for Howard
Then draft John Jenkins

Pg- Westbrook / Maynor
Sg- Jenkins / Sefo
Sf- Durant / Cook
Pf- Ibaka / Collison
C- Howard / Aldrich

KINGBAIZE
03-11-2012, 09:19 PM
One of Harden/Ibaka + Perkins.

No way Id do Harden + Ibaka if I was OKC


^^^ Orlando would be the crazy one's if they made that trade.
No way Harden and Ibaka lands you D. Howard.:facepalm:

You're gonna leave OKC with Durant, Westbrook, and D. Howard??:facepalm::facepalm::facepalm: Talkin about a Dynasty. It would be over for EVERYBODY... Miami included.

KINGBAIZE
03-11-2012, 09:21 PM
I don't even believe this proposal. Not when you have Bynum Gasol options out there... options from Noah, Boozer, Deng, T. Gibson, Asik... Westbrook, and M. Ellis. Not buying this.

Gram
03-11-2012, 09:30 PM
Good for OKC for saying no.

king4day
03-11-2012, 09:49 PM
I'm sorry but if Howard was willing to commit, I see no reason OKC doesn't do this. You wanna talk about a dynasty? Good lord they'd be sick. Unbeatable.

Baller1
03-11-2012, 09:51 PM
I don't even believe this proposal. Not when you have Bynum Gasol options out there... options from Noah, Boozer, Deng, T. Gibson, Asik... Westbrook, and M. Ellis. Not buying this.

Harden + Ibaka is a better combo than just about any other offer Orlando is going to see.

justinnum1
03-11-2012, 09:58 PM
Harden + Ibaka is a better combo than just about any other offer Orlando is going to see.

yea, but those 2 guys are gonna need to get paid big time...

harden prob 10-12mil and ibaka 10mil

Raph12
03-11-2012, 09:58 PM
Harden + Ibaka is a better combo than just about any other offer Orlando is going to see.

Damn straight; I'd take that offer, call "no backsies" and run in the opposite direction so quick, that the Thunder GM would be left with a bewildered look on his face and probably chase me just because of my reaction lol.

BULLSFAN0810
03-11-2012, 10:00 PM
that would be no rental..Howar if traded if he left OKC then he wasnt looking to win,he is looking to get his *** kissed.

ldawg
03-11-2012, 10:04 PM
That is BS. no way they turn that down and its even more BS that a deal like that beat Bynum. I don't buy it for a sec.

Bruno
03-11-2012, 10:10 PM
On March 15th, 2012 at 3:01 pm Eastern Time, 12:01 pm Pacific Time, no one will care about Dwight Howard anymore. ;)
unfortunately, that's not entirely true. all howard has to do is pick up his one year player option for next season and all of this seasons drama gets push into next year as well.

Bruno
03-11-2012, 10:21 PM
I'm sorry but if Howard was willing to commit, I see no reason OKC doesn't do this. You wanna talk about a dynasty? Good lord they'd be sick. Unbeatable.
x2. i'm very high and harden and ibaka.
but still. were talking about the missing link in the WB-Durant triangle of dominance.
then they could ship off Perkins to a potential contender lacking a center (such as Dallas) to fill up the rest of their roster nicely around those three.

http://games.espn.go.com/nba/tradeMachine?tradeId=6r4392v

Westbrook/Cook
Thabo/Delonte
Durant
Odom
Howard

game over. for everyone.

i'd also like to add that OKC won't be keeping Durant, WB, Perkins, Ibaka, and Harden long terms anyways. People need to remember that the only reason why they can afford this team is because Harden and Ibaka are still on rookie contracts. Once those guys start commanding 8+ on the market, OKC will no longer be able to afford them. it's better to consolidate now, than to lose talent for nothing, or less than Howard in the future.

LA_Raiders
03-11-2012, 10:24 PM
i dont believe it...

Bruno
03-11-2012, 10:27 PM
http://games.espn.go.com/nba/tradeMachine?tradeId=77z2t3g

this trade almost works once Lamar is told by Dallas that his 9 million dollar player option won't be picked up for next season, and that he'll be offered a three year mini-mle through a sign and trade in its place. fill in the pieces and everyone benefits. that is, if Orlando would take harden and ibaka for Howard, which im still skeptical on.

HouRealCoach
03-11-2012, 11:02 PM
They will regret this... Dwight would have stayed

Baller1
03-11-2012, 11:05 PM
Damn straight; I'd take that offer, call "no backsies" and run in the opposite direction so quick, that the Thunder GM would be left with a bewildered look on his face and probably chase me just because of my reaction lol.

Haha, you need to have a talk with Magicbucssox then, because he's trying to tag me as crazy. Ironic.

ChiSox219
03-11-2012, 11:08 PM
What exactly is Harden's ceiling anyway?

Baller1
03-11-2012, 11:08 PM
What exactly is Harden's ceiling anyway?

Black Manu.

ChiSox219
03-11-2012, 11:11 PM
Black Manu.

Kinda conservative imo

kjoke
03-11-2012, 11:11 PM
I say wade. He's already on manu level imo. His ceiling is higer given a bigger role and growth

Baller1
03-11-2012, 11:14 PM
Kinda conservative imo


I say wade. He's already on manu level imo. His ceiling is higer given a bigger role and growth

Well, I have no motive to argue with this because he's probably my favorite player, but I'm going with a safe pick. I mean, Manu is a multiple time champion, sixth man of the year, etc.

If that were Harden's ceiling and he topped off there, I would say it's still a success. Anything higher, and we're looking at a future superstar.

(Side note: I've been saying for two years now that Harden is the best guard (maybe player) from that draft class.)

Raph12
03-11-2012, 11:16 PM
I say wade. He's already on manu level imo. His ceiling is higer given a bigger role and growth

Manu is still putting up significantly better numbers this year and has always put up good numbers (since his sophmore season), so saying Manu isn't a knock on Harden's game, Manu could've been a star with a starting role and more minutes... Wade is doable, but not probable.

Heater4life
03-11-2012, 11:29 PM
Thats b.s. Howard with Durant and Westbrook would make them title favorites. If OKC turned down that trade they think too highly of their youth. Howard is young and the best center in the league.

PurpleJesus
03-11-2012, 11:37 PM
Howard/Durant/Westbrook would be a better big 3 than Miami.

Cano-Montero...
03-11-2012, 11:45 PM
dont know if its true...But I hope OKC would have accepted that if dwight extends with them...That would be a pretty awesome team..

ChiSox219
03-12-2012, 12:06 AM
Manu is still putting up significantly better numbers this year and has always put up good numbers (since his sophmore season), so saying Manu isn't a knock on Harden's game, Manu could've been a star with a starting role and more minutes... Wade is doable, but not probable.

pointless to compare numbers this year given Manu's 200 minutes

Manu came into a league with pro experience and an NBA body and didn't put up Harden's kind of numbers until he was 27. I don't want to knock Manu because I love watching him but I don't think he'd be any more effective with more minutes and/or a starter role and generally efficiency declines with increased minutes and/or usage.

I think the comparison is good but I would say that's conservative, not worst case but not ceiling either.

koreancabbage
03-12-2012, 12:11 AM
Howard plus Durant and Westbrook?

Howard >= Ibaka and Harden.

I think OKC looks back at this trade and will regret not doing it. sure they look like the a championship team but Howard is a once in a lifetime player. Ibaka has nothing on Howard. Harden is a good player but he's nowhere near Howard's impact on a game defensively and offensively.

Mr_Amaziing
03-12-2012, 12:14 AM
Howard or Harden & Ibaka

We just gotta wait till March 15 to see what happens

Baller1
03-12-2012, 12:14 AM
Howard plus Durant and Westbrook?

Howard >= Ibaka and Harden.

I think OKC looks back at this trade and will regret not doing it. sure they look like the a championship team but Howard is a once in a lifetime player. Ibaka has nothing on Howard. Harden is a good player but he's nowhere near Howard's impact on a game defensively and offensively.

Harden is more impactful offensively than Howard. Defensively, obviously not of course.

tredigs
03-12-2012, 12:16 AM
I'm just thinking about how much stronger that makes a locker room and how much confidence it gives to Harden and Ibaka knowing that your team is so sure of your abilities that they won't even deal you for Dwight Howard.

idrinkpepsi
03-12-2012, 12:22 AM
Thats b.s. Howard with Durant and Westbrook would make them title favorites. If OKC turned down that trade they think too highly of their youth. Howard is young and the best center in the league.Yeah but if Howard didn't resign the team would have lost out on a lot in Ibaka and Harden.

lkingratedr
03-12-2012, 12:23 AM
I read this trade on ****** and I have to second the sentiments of most posters harden and ibaka is 2 much because these guys play there rolls perfectly now if it was pick between them plus perk and filler I would say go

Team*Chicago
03-12-2012, 12:26 AM
I would reject that trade too. I don't know who the hell Orlando think they is thinking the can **** someone over in a rent-a-player trade with less than 20 games left in the season for great players that's steadily improving.

koreancabbage
03-12-2012, 12:26 AM
Harden is more impactful offensively than Howard. Defensively, obviously not of course.

mmmm, Howard is a beast downlow and will get you a better percentage shot anytime. Blocks, steals, defense, - sure his FT% is not so good, but his offensive numbers would be even better in OKC when the person doubling down has to worry about Westbrook or Durant and will offset the loss of Harden and Ibaka easily.

Howard gives them a new look and makes them more of threat everywhere on the court- front and back. They would have the best big man in the game and the best wing player (scorer) in the game on the same team.

and if i was Howard, how can i not re-up with OKC with Durant and Westbrook. Actual and real good talent he's never had around him.

Raph12
03-12-2012, 12:33 AM
pointless to compare numbers this year given Manu's 200 minutes

Manu came into a league with pro experience and an NBA body and didn't put up Harden's kind of numbers until he was 27. I don't want to knock Manu because I love watching him but I don't think he'd be any more effective with more minutes and/or a starter role and generally efficiency declines with increased minutes and/or usage.

I think the comparison is good but I would say that's conservative, not worst case but not ceiling either.

"Efficiency declines with increased minutes and/or usage" is a myth, you don't know how a player would play in lesser minutes or more minutes, it's situational. Considering the fact that Manu never played more than 31mpg in his career yet dominated in the minutes he did play, I'll go on record to say that he'd be considered a lot better than he is if he did get those minutes. I can't guarantee he'd put up better numbers, but if I was a betting man, I'd definitely put money on it... There are guys who put up good numbers and then there are guys who dominate each and every minute on the floor, I feel like Manu is one of those latter guys.

As for Harden, his ceiling is Wade like DeAndre Jordan's ceiling is Dwight Howard. Technically, could he get there one day? Sure. But is it probable? No.

People don't understand how dominant DWade was/has been since his rookie/sophmore season (minus 2007-08 when he struggled with his injuries) and then you take away last season, when he had the adjustment period to Lebron and Bosh being on his team... Wade has had one of the top 10 primes and peak of all-time statswise.

5ass
03-12-2012, 12:43 AM
Harden is more impactful offensively than Howard. Defensively, obviously not of course.

No, Howard's impact on offense is greater. Durant and Westbrook will have a field day attacking the basket when help defenders have to worry about dwight. Dwight draws more attention to defense than Harden. Dwight gives the Thunder a low post scorer which they currently lack. Not to mention they have a serviceable SG in Sefolosha to play defense and hit the 3. Dwight instantly turns OKC into a top 5 defensive team easily (with westbrook, sefolosha, Collison, can easily become #1) instead of being barely top 10. On paper that team is perfectly balanced. It has everything (inside scoring, play making, 3 pt shooting, perimeter defense, help defense, slashing, iso players,...). The worst thing about is they would have a weak bench. I would trade Aldrich/Mohammed+ a 1st if u have to, for a PF (Amir Johnson?) and have him Jackson-Cook-Hayward-Aldrich/Mohammad off the bench. Durant, Westbrook and Howard can handle 40 mpg in the play offs anyway see they wont see much time on the floor.

ChiSox219
03-12-2012, 12:59 AM
"Efficiency declines with increased minutes and/or usage" is a myth, you don't know how a player would play in lesser minutes or more minutes, it's situational. Considering the fact that Manu never played more than 31mpg in his career yet dominated in the minutes he did play, I'll go on record to say that he'd be considered a lot better than he is if he did get those minutes. I can't guarantee he'd put up better numbers, but if I was a betting man, I'd definitely put money on it... There are guys who put up good numbers and then there are guys who dominate each and every minute on the floor, I feel like Manu is one of those latter guys.

As for Harden, his ceiling is Wade like DeAndre Jordan's ceiling is Dwight Howard. Technically, could he get there one day? Sure. But is it probable? No.

People don't understand how dominant DWade was/has been since his rookie/sophmore season (minus 2007-08 when he struggled with his injuries) and then you take away last season, when he had the adjustment period to Lebron and Bosh being on his team... Wade has had one of the top 10 primes and peak of all-time statswise.

Manu would be playing against starting defenses in addition to the increased work load. Most likely his numbers will see little change because he's a consistent dude. Betting on better numbers is going against the odds.

MetroMan
03-12-2012, 01:17 AM
http://www.hoopsvibe.com/nba-news-and-rumors/articles/168961-rumor-thunder-wont-trade-harden-ibaka-for-dwight-howard

apparently this is true.

I'm on the fence of this.

Durant/Howard/Westbrook will 100% win a good 3 chips......with harden and ibaka....Im not so sure.

The real threat in the nba is miami....there 1 weakness is in the post. Dwight will exploit this and wont be stopped. Its kinda hard to double howard/durant/westbrook at the same time. Also keep in mind that most shooters can not shoot a lick in the playoffs and go into droughts.

Raph12
03-12-2012, 01:18 AM
Manu would be playing against starting defenses in addition to the increased work load. Most likely his numbers will see little change because he's a consistent dude. Betting on better numbers is going against the odds.

Manu has always been elite against any defense (numbers always great in 4th quarters against the starters; led Argentina to the gold medal win in 04, bronze in 08 and he dominated Euroleague and the Italian league, winning championships and MVPs left, right and center prior to coming to the States for NBA ball)... Safe to say that a player who's dominated all levels of competition, could do more with a longer leash.

Manu is underrated and so is Wade, saying Harden's ceiling is Manu is not an insult and saying his ceiling is Wade is an insult, to Wade.

...

Again, we haven't seen that much from Harden, so the door is wide open; we'll see what happens.

Bos_Sports4Life
03-12-2012, 02:46 AM
.
People don't understand how dominant DWade was/has been since his rookie/sophmore season (minus 2007-08 when he struggled with his injuries) and then you take away last season, when he had the adjustment period to Lebron and Bosh being on his team... Wade has had one of the top 10 primes and peak of all-time statswise.

I can name 10 guys off the top of my head with better peaks..

- MJ
- Wilt
- Kareem
- Bird
- David Robinson
- KG
- Lebron
- Shaq
- Duncan
- West

That was easy

GoneGuru
03-12-2012, 03:15 AM
this is a ******** trade offer by some jerks that want attention at a site that clearly sucks.

Raph12
03-12-2012, 04:04 AM
I can name 10 guys off the top of my head with better peaks..

- MJ
- Wilt
- Kareem
- Bird
- David Robinson
- KG
- Lebron
- Shaq
- Duncan
- West

That was easy

Wade in 2008-09 was better statistically than; Bird, KG, Duncan or West (especially West) have ever been in any season throughout their careers.

Nice attempt, but no, try again.

boogie-reke
03-12-2012, 04:28 AM
OKC has a championship caliber team. No need to mess with what they have. Ibaka is a future DPOY, and Harden is slowly becoming the next Manu. Both are young as well.

I would have turned it down as well.

You know theres more to defence then blocking shots right? he has a long way to go to become a DPOY type of player.

mustaine
03-12-2012, 04:32 AM
http://www.hoopsvibe.com/nba-news-and-rumors/articles/168961-rumor-thunder-wont-trade-harden-ibaka-for-dwight-howard

apparently this is true.

I'm on the fence of this.

Durant/Howard/Westbrook will 100% win a good 3 chips......with harden and ibaka....Im not so sure.

The real threat in the nba is miami....there 1 weakness is in the post. Dwight will exploit this and wont be stopped. Its kinda hard to double howard/durant/westbrook at the same time. Also keep in mind that most shooters can not shoot a lick in the playoffs and go into droughts.

A core of those three would probably win a few championships... however, it is a huge risk for the Thunder. Howard would need to sign an extension which is a big question-mark, he wants to be "the guy" and with the Thunder he'll most certainly not be that. Thunder a playing it smart, the already have a real good team and players that want to be there.

Bos_Sports4Life
03-13-2012, 11:49 PM
Wade in 2008-09 was better statistically than; Bird, KG, Duncan or West (especially West) have ever been in any season throughout their careers.

Nice attempt, but no, try again.


Brd in a three year stretch AVERAGED 27.5 ppg, 9.9 Rebounds and 7.0 Assists.

WS/48- .242

Duncan had a five year stretch where he Averaged 23.3 ppg, 12.2 Rebounds, 3.4 assists and 2.5 BLKS

WS/48- .234


Garnett had a three year stretch of 22.8 PPG, 4.9 Assists, 13.4 Rebounds, 1.7 blocks, and 1.7 Stls.

WS/48- .254


West had a 3 year stretch of 30.4 PPG, 6.4 Rebounds and 5.5 AST.

WS/48- .247



Wade averaged in that ONE year 30.2 ppg, 5.0 rebounds and 7.5 assists.

WS/48- .232


That was easy..

koreancabbage
03-13-2012, 11:51 PM
I would reject that trade too. I don't know who the hell Orlando think they is thinking the can **** someone over in a rent-a-player trade with less than 20 games left in the season for great players that's steadily improving.

only if Howard re-ups for sure they would do it. NO DOUBT ABOUT IT.

KB-Pau-DH2012
03-14-2012, 12:01 AM
Brd in a three year stretch AVERAGED 27.5 ppg, 9.9 Rebounds and 7.0 Assists.

WS/48- .242

Duncan had a five year stretch where he Averaged 23.3 ppg, 12.2 Rebounds, 3.4 assists and 2.5 BLKS

WS/48- .234


Garnett had a three year stretch of 22.8 PPG, 4.9 Assists, 13.4 Rebounds, 1.7 blocks, and 1.7 Stls.

WS/48- .254


West had a 3 year stretch of 30.4 PPG, 6.4 Rebounds and 5.5 AST.

WS/48- .247



Wade averaged in that ONE year 30.2 ppg, 5.0 rebounds and 7.5 assists.

WS/48- .232


That was easy..


Did you really find the need to bump this thread just so you could reply to that post?

There are already so many other relevant threads to be talked about on the first page of the forum. :laugh2:

Bos_Sports4Life
03-14-2012, 01:00 AM
Did you really find the need to bump this thread just so you could reply to that post?

There are already so many other relevant threads to be talked about on the first page of the forum. :laugh2:

I indeed felt the need! :)

Raph12
03-14-2012, 02:25 AM
Brd in a three year stretch AVERAGED 27.5 ppg, 9.9 Rebounds and 7.0 Assists.

WS/48- .242

Duncan had a five year stretch where he Averaged 23.3 ppg, 12.2 Rebounds, 3.4 assists and 2.5 BLKS

WS/48- .234


Garnett had a three year stretch of 22.8 PPG, 4.9 Assists, 13.4 Rebounds, 1.7 blocks, and 1.7 Stls.

WS/48- .254


West had a 3 year stretch of 30.4 PPG, 6.4 Rebounds and 5.5 AST.

WS/48- .247



Wade averaged in that ONE year 30.2 ppg, 5.0 rebounds and 7.5 assists.

WS/48- .232


That was easy..

He's dominated all of those guys historically in PER, had a significantly better AST/TO ratio and was a significantly better defensive player than both Bird and West... Going by just win shares would make Tyson Chandler, Ryan Anderson, Louis Williams, Thaddeus Young, Paul Millsap, etc all Top 15 players in the league.

Per game numbers don't mean **** and if you're going advanced, dig deeper than just WS48.

Bos_Sports4Life
03-14-2012, 02:00 PM
He's dominated all of those guys historically in PER, had a significantly better AST/TO ratio and was a significantly better defensive player than both Bird and West... Going by just win shares would make Tyson Chandler, Ryan Anderson, Louis Williams, Thaddeus Young, Paul Millsap, etc all Top 15 players in the league.

Per game numbers don't mean **** and if you're going advanced, dig deeper than just WS48.

Bird won 3 straight Leage MVP's in his prime. Bird is one of the best shooters of all time, one of the best passing fowards of all time, one of the best rebounding fowards of all time ect ect..

Do a poll....Prime Bird or prime Wade, that would be interesing..I bet I know who wins that, in a landslide..

Using PER is laughable...According to PER Russell was NEVER a top 3 player (5x league MVP/11X Champ). Try telling a basketball historian Russell wasn't EVER top 3 :laugh2:

Bos_Sports4Life
03-14-2012, 02:16 PM
He's dominated all of those guys historically in PER, had a significantly better AST/TO ratio and was a significantly better defensive player than both Bird and West... Going by just win shares would make Tyson Chandler, Ryan Anderson, Louis Williams, Thaddeus Young, Paul Millsap, etc all Top 15 players in the league.

Per game numbers don't mean **** and if you're going advanced, dig deeper than just WS48.

Heck Going STRICTLY with PER, Wade lost in the finals with the 2nd best player of ALL TIME on his team...

JayW_1023
03-14-2012, 02:49 PM
Gutsy. And the right move.

NoahH
03-14-2012, 03:19 PM
OKC is rolling. Why would they mess up their chemistry at this point?

kdspurman
03-14-2012, 04:38 PM
How can any logical Magic fan actually disagree with this trade. You won't find more talent for Dwight than Harden and Ibaka. You're insane.

Glad OKC turned this down. Orlando can have one, not both.

Melo/Chandler
Bynum and or Pau

These were both 2 I think Magic could've had better than Harden/Ibaka.

Raph12
03-14-2012, 05:08 PM
Bird won 3 straight Leage MVP's in his prime. Bird is one of the best shooters of all time, one of the best passing fowards of all time, one of the best rebounding fowards of all time ect ect..

Do a poll....Prime Bird or prime Wade, that would be interesing..I bet I know who wins that, in a landslide..

Using PER is laughable...According to PER Russell was NEVER a top 3 player (5x league MVP/11X Champ). Try telling a basketball historian Russell wasn't EVER top 3 :laugh2:

Bird didn't peak at the same time as Lebron, and Wade didn't have McHale and Parish as teammates... Try again.

What you mean on PSD? The site where all the knowledgeable and intelligent fans come to post?

Bill Russell was one of the worst scorers, probably the worst, of any superstar the league has ever seen. PER rewards scorers a lot, so pointing at Bill Russell is a bad example.

strahan92osi72
03-14-2012, 05:22 PM
No Westbrook in that deal? I call BS.

Jahari Kavi
03-14-2012, 05:33 PM
Sounds like BS and if true OKC is dumb as hell....harden is replaceable and Howard > Ibaka

DrDre94
03-14-2012, 07:39 PM
Sounds like BS and if true OKC is dumb as hell....harden is replaceable and Howard > Ibaka

You my friend are clueless about basketball. :facepalm:

Bos_Sports4Life
03-14-2012, 10:07 PM
Bird didn't peak at the same time as Lebron, and Wade didn't have McHale and Parish as teammates... Try again.

What you mean on PSD? The site where all the knowledgeable and intelligent fans come to post?

Bill Russell was one of the worst scorers, probably the worst, of any superstar the league has ever seen. PER rewards scorers a lot, so pointing at Bill Russell is a bad example.

Bird didn't need Mchale/Parrish too put up huge #'s. He basically himself made the c's go from 29 wins too 61 in a single season. The celtics went from 21st out of 22 teams in SRS too 2nd in the League, And this was BEFORE Parrish/Mchale..

Raph12
03-15-2012, 12:51 AM
Bird didn't need Mchale/Parrish too put up huge #'s. He basically himself made the c's go from 29 wins too 61 in a single season. The celtics went from 21st out of 22 teams in SRS too 2nd in the League, And this was BEFORE Parrish/Mchale..

Please, Maxwell was the best player on that 1980 Celts, not Bird and in the 1980-81 season, both Maxwell and Parish outplayed Bird... He wasn't really the team's best player until his 3rd season.

tredigs
03-15-2012, 01:24 AM
Please, Maxwell was the best player on that 1980 Celts, not Bird and in the 1980-81 season, both Maxwell and Parish outplayed Bird... He wasn't really the team's best player until his 3rd season.

Whaaaat??? That's a tough sell there Raph. Bird was All-NBA 1st team as a rookie (no other Celtic was All-NBA) and every other year he played... He was their leader from the get go; turned a 29 win team (that had Maxwell, Dave Cowens, McAdoo...) into a 60+ win Eastern Conference Finals team in his first season as both their leading scorer and rebounder. He set the tone from day 1 that they were going to be winners. And he delivered.

Bird was always their best player.

Raph12
03-15-2012, 01:32 AM
Whaaaat??? That's a tough sell there Raph. Bird was All-NBA 1st team as a rookie (no other Celtic was All-NBA) and every other year he played... He was their leader from the get go; turned a 29 win team (that had Maxwell, Dave Cowens, McAdoo...) into a 60+ win Eastern Conference Finals team in his first season as both their leading scorer and rebounder. He set the tone from day 1 that they were going to be winners. And he delivered.

Bird was always their best player.

By per game stats, you look at him as having a great two seasons, but if you look deeper, Maxwell was better in 80 and Parish was much better in 81.

Leader doesn't essentially mean best player; if Dwight's traded to the Lakers, he could be the team's best player, yet Kobe would still be the leader.

Gram
03-15-2012, 01:33 AM
Dwight Howard. James Harden. Serge Ibaka.

Bos_Sports4Life
03-15-2012, 01:44 AM
Please, Maxwell was the best player on that 1980 Celts, not Bird and in the 1980-81 season, both Maxwell and Parish outplayed Bird... He wasn't really the team's best player until his 3rd season.

Bird made the players around him better, clearly..Maxwell had good #'s sure but did he have the same impact on the game as bird? not even close..

Saying Bird wasn't the best player even yr 1 is crazy talk.

- 1st team All NBA
- 4th place in MVP Voting

The Celtics as a team

- SRS From 21st out of 22 teams to 1st in the NBA
- 29-53 to 61-21

And your trying to tell me maxwell>Bird? :laugh:

Losoway
03-15-2012, 01:48 AM
Okc is out of there mind for not accepting this


kevin durant howard westbrook on the same team > life
:speechless::speechless::speechless:

Raph12
03-15-2012, 01:49 AM
Bird made the players around him better, clearly..Maxwell had good #'s sure but did he have the same impact on the game as bird? not even close..

Saying Bird wasn't the best player even yr 1 is crazy talk.

- 1st team All NBA
- 4th place in MVP Voting

The Celtics as a team

- SRS From 21st out of 22 teams to 1st in the NBA
- 29-53 to 61-21

And your trying to tell me maxwell>Bird? :laugh:

Actually Maxwell put up better numbers the year before Bird got there as well, he was the constant, not the variable; but he still put up better numbers than Bird in 1980.

tredigs
03-15-2012, 01:49 AM
By per game stats, you look at him as having a great two seasons, but if you look deeper, Maxwell was better in 80 and Parish was much better in 81.

Leader doesn't essentially mean best player; if Dwight's traded to the Lakers, he could be the team's best player, yet Kobe would still be the leader.

Categorize it by winning, dude. Do you think the 40 game swing and him earning All-NBA 1st team while no other C was even on the 2nd team was coincidental? He was widely (rightly) recognized as the catalyst for their out of the woodwork eliteness. To go along with his nice "per game numbers" (insinuating he was a chucker or something? I don't get it. 47/40/83 out of the gate...) he set the tone for them defensively.

Here's an advanced stat on Bird's first 2 season for you: Lead the NBA in defensive win shares both years. 1st year and 2nd year.

He resurrected a dynasty. He was quite easily their best player. Cedric Maxwell wasn't even an all star (really good player tho')... stop staring at his WS/48.

Just looked, Bird was also top 5 in MVP voting his rookie year behind Kareem and Dr. J.

Baller1
03-15-2012, 01:50 AM
Okc is out of there mind for not accepting this


kevin durant howard westbrook on the same team > life
:speechless::speechless::speechless:

It'd be for about 20-40 games. Not worth it.

GrandDaddyPurp
03-15-2012, 01:54 AM
This trade would have put OKC over the hump but now they have no chance of winning a title with the roster they have.

AI
03-15-2012, 01:57 AM
Yeah, you're right, it's not like they lost in the finals last year and it's not like they are in 1st place in their conference. They suck for declining a trade which made no sense for them long-term. :laugh2:

Raph12
03-15-2012, 02:04 AM
Categorize it by winning, dude. Do you think the 40 game swing and him earning All-NBA 1st team while no other C was even on the 2nd team was coincidental? He was widely (rightly) recognized as the catalyst for their out of the woodwork eliteness. To go along with his nice "per game numbers" (insinuating he was a chucker or something? I don't get it. 47/40/83 out of the gate...) he set the tone for them defensively.

Here's an advanced stat on Bird's first 2 season for you: Lead the NBA in defensive win shares both years. 1st year and 2nd year.

He resurrected a dynasty. He was quite easily their best player. Cedric Maxwell wasn't even an all star (really good player tho')... stop staring at his WS/48.

Again you're talking accolades, I'm talking stats, Maxwell's stats are comparable but Parish was definitely better in '81... Bird maybe more impactful than those guys, but intangibles are immeasurable. You could argue that Rubio has been more impactful than Love, but is he the better player?

GrandDaddyPurp
03-15-2012, 02:07 AM
Yeah, you're right, it's not like they lost in the finals last year and it's not like they are in 1st place in their conference. They suck for declining a trade which made no sense for them long-term. :laugh2:

It's not like that makes any sense.

tredigs
03-15-2012, 02:12 AM
Again you're talking accolades, I'm talking stats, Maxwell's stats are comparable but Parish was definitely better in '81... Bird maybe more impactful than those guys, but intangibles are immeasurable. You could argue that Rubio has been more impactful than Love, but is he the better player?

Basketball is not yet a game that can be quantified simply by stats (and never will be - there's just too many variables). The ultimate stat-heads like Daryl Morey (Rockets GM/creator of Sloan Conference/Spends millions a year on research) is the 1st person to pound that point home.

The irony is that the perfect example somebody could use to describe an instance like this would be to point to Maxwell's WS/48 and TS% in the 1979-80 season in comparison to Bird's (without names) and then ask the question to Celtics fans of that era, "So, who's the better player between A and B?" The people would likely say Maxwell, then be showed the names behind the numbers and feel like complete ****ing dunces for what they just said. Not because of the name or accolades, but because they know just how much better he was than everyone else on the floor.

And you're not talking stats, you flat out said that Maxwell and Parish were easily the best player on both teams respectively. I'm simply telling you that you are flat wrong. And it wasn't even close. I have never once heard someone argue otherwise until you today man.

Edit: And to answer your question - no, Rubio is (was) not their best player. Had Rubio joined the team and lead them to the Western Conference Finals while leading the team in points/assists while putting up great percentages and imposing an entirely new work ethic on both sides of the floor (en route to an All-NBA 1st team and top 5 in MVP voting rookie season), then yes - I could absolutely see your point!...

Raph12
03-15-2012, 02:22 AM
Basketball is not yet a game that can be quantified simply by stats (and never will be - there's just too many variables). The ultimate stat-heads like Daryl Morey (Rockets GM/creator of Sloan Conference/Spends millions a year on research) is the 1st person to pound that point home.

The irony is that the perfect example somebody could use to describe an instance like this would be to point to Maxwell's WS/48 and TS% in the 1979-80 season in comparison to Bird's (without names) and then ask the question to Celtics fans of that era, "So, who's the better player between A and B?" The people would likely say Maxwell, then be showed the names behind the numbers and feel like complete ****ing dunces for what they just said. Not because of the name or accolades, but because they know just how much better he was than everyone else on the floor.

And you're not talking stats, you flat out said that Maxwell and Parish were easily the best player on both teams respectively. I'm simply telling you that you are flat wrong. And it wasn't even close. I have never once heard someone argue otherwise until you today man.

Edit: And no, Rubio is not their best player. Had Rubio joined the team and lead them to the Western Conference Finals while leading the team in points/assists while putting up great percentages and imposing an entirely new work ethic on both sides of the floor (en route to an All-NBA 1st team and top 5 in MVP voting rookie season), then yes - I could absolutely see your point!...

Still doesn't change the fact that, statistically, both outplayed Bird in his first two seasons... If you're comparing stats from Bird's peak to Wade's peak (which we were doing), it's Wade 10 times out of 10.

Losoway
03-15-2012, 02:26 AM
It'd be for about 20-40 games. Not worth it.

Are you serious???? :facepalm::facepalm:

Durant Howard and westbrook would go 72-10 easy

Corey
03-15-2012, 02:28 AM
Please, Maxwell was the best player on that 1980 Celts, not Bird and in the 1980-81 season, both Maxwell and Parish outplayed Bird... He wasn't really the team's best player until his 3rd season.

Please.

Max was a fine player, but Bird started 82 games, averaged 40 minutes per game, and put up a line of 21/11/5 on 48% shooting.

Bird and Parish were both better than Max in 1980.

tredigs
03-15-2012, 02:30 AM
Still doesn't change the fact that, statistically, both outplayed Bird in his first two seasons... If you're comparing stats from Bird's peak to Wade's peak (which we were doing), it's Wade 10 times out of 10.

huh?


Please, Maxwell was the best player on that 1980 Celts, not Bird and in the 1980-81 season, both Maxwell and Parish outplayed Bird... He wasn't really the team's best player until his 3rd season.

''He wasn't really the teams best player until his 3rd season".

That is where your argument crumbles into dust, and where people HAVE to start realizing that both per game nor current (now mainstream) 'advanced' stats can be misconstrued and misinterpreted if not properly contextualized.

And if you have to focus on advanced stats for those years to help understand that Bird was those teams CLEAR #1, then like I said focus on him leading the league in defensive win shares as a SF both in his rookie and sophomore years. Him leading the team in points/rebounds and being a great playmaker with efficiency in the regular season/playoffs en route to top 5 MVP recognition while they weren't All-Stars can be side notes to that for his case.

Raph12
03-15-2012, 02:38 AM
''He wasn't really the teams best player until his 3rd season".

That is where your argument crumbles into dust, and where people HAVE to start realizing that both per game nor current (now mainstream) 'advanced' stats can be misconstrued and misinterpreted if not properly contextualized.

And if you have to focus on advanced stats for those years to help understand that Bird was those teams CLEAR #1, focus on him leading the league in defensive win shares as a SF both in his rookie and sophomore years. Him leading the team in points/rebounds and being a great playmaker with efficiency in the regular season/playoffs en route top 5 MVP recognition while they weren't All-Stars can be side notes to that for his case.

Parish outplayed him in 1981, whether he was the leader or not, Parish still outplayed him with the time he got (28mpg)... The arguement is that Bird's statistical peak (1988-89) was better than Wade's statistical peak (2008-09), which it wasn't.

The arguement I had was that Wade in 2008-09, arguably had one of the top 10 peak's in NBA history, which he did. Being literal with every inch of my post doesn't change that.

tredigs
03-15-2012, 02:53 AM
Parish outplayed him in 1981, whether he was the leader or not, Parish still outplayed him with the time he got (28mpg)... The arguement is that Bird's statistical peak (1988-89) was better than Wade's statistical peak (2008-09), which it wasn't.

The arguement I had was that Wade in 2008-09, arguably had one of the top 10 peak's in NBA history, which he did. Being literal with every inch of my post doesn't change that.

88-89? He was hurt. I'd look to 85-86 as a better peak for Bird (one of his MVP years). Bird was leading the league in PER, WinShares (+ D. Win Shares), WS/48, had a higher Orating and a lower Drating than Wade's ever had, and was averaging about 26/10/7 on a near 50/40/90 percentage wise.

Don't forget that PER is league adjusted depending on others numbers/percentages (Bird's stats in this years NBA for example would be a >30 PER), and take special consideration of Wade's USAGE%. It was an absolutely insane 36.2% for the regular season (in comparison, basically 30% more time overall handling the ball and potentially accruing stats than Bird had that year considering Bird was at 26%). And that was the only thing Wade led the league in statistically.

Bird's peak is statistically much better when you adjust the seasons accordingly.

/threadjack. You can have the last word. Night.

Raph12
03-15-2012, 03:55 AM
88-89? He was hurt. I'd look to 85-86 as a better peak for Bird (one of his MVP years). Bird was leading the league in PER, WinShares (+ D. Win Shares), WS/48, had a higher Orating and a lower Drating than Wade's ever had, and was averaging about 26/10/7 on a near 50/40/90 percentage wise.

Don't forget that PER is league adjusted depending on others numbers/percentages (Bird's stats in this years NBA for example would be a >30 PER), and take special consideration of Wade's USAGE%. It was an absolutely insane 36.2% for the regular season (in comparison, basically 30% more time overall handling the ball and potentially accruing stats than Bird had that year considering Bird was at 26%). And that was the only thing Wade led the league in statistically.

Bird's peak is statistically much better when you adjust the seasons accordingly.

/threadjack. You can have the last word. Night.

I meant '87-88 and saying his numbers now would be "x" isn't accurate, considering the league is much more athletic now. You have to compare players' dominance to their own era, there are too many factors to effectively compare the eras... Wade dominated his era better than Bird did his, statistically speaking of course, the only guy who's outplayed him statistically for both their primes in this era, is Lebron.

i.got.the.nutz
03-15-2012, 04:18 AM
88-89? He was hurt. I'd look to 85-86 as a better peak for Bird (one of his MVP years). Bird was leading the league in PER, WinShares (+ D. Win Shares), WS/48, had a higher Orating and a lower Drating than Wade's ever had, and was averaging about 26/10/7 on a near 50/40/90 percentage wise.

Don't forget that PER is league adjusted depending on others numbers/percentages (Bird's stats in this years NBA for example would be a >30 PER), and take special consideration of Wade's USAGE%. It was an absolutely insane 36.2% for the regular season (in comparison, basically 30% more time overall handling the ball and potentially accruing stats than Bird had that year considering Bird was at 26%). And that was the only thing Wade led the league in statistically.

Bird's peak is statistically much better when you adjust the seasons accordingly.

/threadjack. You can have the last word. Night.


I love knowledgeable arguments on PSD. Keep it up guys :clap:

Statistically, Bird had the higher peak. If we were to take both players at their peak in today's game, I would have to go with Wade; although that is purely subjective.

kdspurman
03-15-2012, 10:32 AM
Are you serious???? :facepalm::facepalm:

Durant Howard and westbrook would go 72-10 easy

1, I doubt they would go 72-10 "easy" that's not something that can be done easily.

2, I think he meant it would only be 20-40 games for Dwight cause he would leave after the season

Baller1
03-15-2012, 10:44 AM
1, I doubt they would go 72-10 "easy" that's not something that can be done easily.

2, I think he meant it would only be 20-40 games for Dwight cause he would leave after the season

I'm glad someone could comprehend what I was saying, haha.

BradfordIsElite
03-15-2012, 11:50 AM
Lmao no way OKC would reject that.