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View Full Version : Bill Simmons now ranks Dirk the 2nd greatest PF ever.



JordansBulls
03-11-2012, 03:08 PM
http://www.grantland.com/story/_/id/7666048/nba-trade-value-part-2




10. Dirk Nowitzki


I can't remember another NBA superstar having his personality transformed by an NBA title; if it happened with, say, Hakeem Olajuwon, I don't remember reading about it. Dirk's next few years will be interesting for historical purposes: In my basketball book, I ranked Bird, Duncan, Havlicek, Baylor, Erving, Pettit, Malone and Barkley as the greatest forwards of all time (in that order). Dirk already leapfrogged the last three; he's about to jump the next three; and if that happens, suddenly he's one of the best 12 or 13 players of all time by any calculation. He's also the greatest international basketball player ever and actually, you could argue that the distance between Dirk and the next best foreign guy (Gasol, Ginobili) is more like a chasm.


Meaning only Duncan is considered better now according to Simmons.

CudiOnMyiPod
03-11-2012, 03:10 PM
It honestly isn't far fetched at all. I wouldn't say top 12 but he is top 20 of all time and top 4 PF of all time.

thekmp211
03-11-2012, 03:11 PM
the complete omission of KG puzzled me. i'd like to know why he did that, because he didn't just forget about garnett.

edit: as far as dirk is concerned, i think he's overrating a bit. the player dirk became, eventually, i guess is deserving of the mention. but to me his career deficiencies have been swept under the rug a bit since he won the ring. they do not hold as much weight now that he has a ring, but the long-standing questions about dirks rebounding and defense to me hurt his claim significantly. espeically when duncan, for one, was an exceptional rebounder and defender.

that said, dirk of last season is probably the most dangerous forward outside of duncan because of his almost mathematically perfect offensive game. so difficult to stop. i'm just not going to ignore the rest of his career as a result. interesting question.

BKdoubleStacker
03-11-2012, 03:13 PM
he has gotten severely overrated rated due to his season last year

heyman321
03-11-2012, 03:15 PM
Auf Wiedersehen Kevin Garnett hahahahah!

Avenged
03-11-2012, 03:15 PM
Blake Griffin at #5 is interesting to me.. Ahead of CP3 and Dwight.

Anyways, I disagree. I still think KG was better in his prime. Dude delivered on both sides of the court.

psperry34116
03-11-2012, 03:16 PM
the complete omission of KG puzzled me. i'd like to know why he did that, because he didn't just forget about garnett.
Yeah its weird. He ranked Garnett around 20 in his book and the only thing that I say Dirk has over KG is scoring ability and clutch performance. Still, Garnett is arguably a better teammate and is definitely a better passer, rebounder and defender.

UPRock
03-11-2012, 03:18 PM
He's 5th for me, I'd still choose Garnett, Malone, Barkley over him.

LakersMaster24
03-11-2012, 03:18 PM
Malone > Dirk
KG > Dirk
Sir Charles > Dirk

Nobody talked about Dirk before last season. If someone called Dirk the #2 best PF of All-Time or Top 12 player ever in like 2010 or 2009 you would get laughed at. Dirk is great dont get me wrong, but lets hop off the bandwagon, shall we?

Fnom11
03-11-2012, 03:19 PM
he has gotten severely overrated rated due to his season last year

This. People seem to forget his like 200 first round exits or that whole defense thing that he has never played his entire life.

I mean Dirk's an amazing player but I'd take prime Garnett any day of the week and maybe even Barkley.

waveycrockett
03-11-2012, 03:19 PM
http://www.grantland.com/story/_/id/7666048/nba-trade-value-part-2



Meaning only Duncan is considered better now according to Simmons.

He ranks Bird ahead of Duncan so it's actually Bird and Duncan and Dirk is no.3

CudiOnMyiPod
03-11-2012, 03:37 PM
This. People seem to forget his like 200 first round exits or that whole defense thing that he has never played his entire life.

I mean Dirk's an amazing player but I'd take prime Garnett any day of the week and maybe even Barkley.

He has 4 first round exits and he is one of the greatest playoff performers of all time...

In 2004, he averaged 26.6 ppg and 11.8 rpg on 45% shooting.

In 2007, he averaged 19.7 ppg and 11.3 rpg on 39% shooting.

In 2008, he averaged 26.8 ppg and 12.0 rpg on 47% shooting.

In 2010, he averaged 26.7 ppg and 8.2 rpg on 54% shooting.

Aside from one bad series where he still averaged 19/11 he has had legendary playoff numbers.

And against Garnett in the playoffs, Dirk is 3-0 against him with games of 30/15, 31/15/ and 39/17.


You talk about Dirk's "200" first round exits (4) but fail to mention that Garnett didn't get out of the first round for 7 straight years (had really good numbers but not as good as Dirk.

Between Garnett and Dirk, neither one is ahead of the other. Garnett is a better rebounder, defender and passer while Dirk is the better scorer, clutch player and winner.

JordansBulls
03-11-2012, 03:40 PM
He ranks Bird ahead of Duncan so it's actually Bird and Duncan and Dirk is no.3

Except Bird is a SF. In this book he just ranks all forwards together, but as a PF it is Duncan than Dirk for him. Not that hard to figure out.

thekmp211
03-11-2012, 03:44 PM
He has 4 first round exits and he is one of the greatest playoff performers of all time...

In 2004, he averaged 26.6 ppg and 11.8 rpg on 45% shooting.

In 2007, he averaged 19.7 ppg and 11.3 rpg on 39% shooting.

In 2008, he averaged 26.8 ppg and 12.0 rpg on 47% shooting.

In 2010, he averaged 26.7 ppg and 8.2 rpg on 54% shooting.

Aside from one bad series where he still averaged 19/11 he has had legendary playoff numbers.

And against Garnett in the playoffs, Dirk is 3-0 against him with games of 30/15, 31/15/ and 39/17.


You talk about Dirk's "200" first round exits (4) but fail to mention that Garnett didn't get out of the first round for 7 straight years (had really good numbers but not as good as Dirk.

Between Garnett and Dirk, neither one is ahead of the other. Garnett is a better rebounder, defender and passer while Dirk is the better scorer, clutch player and winner.

i won't elaborate because i think we had this discussion more or less in the KG thread but the discussion from here concerns supporting casts, coaches, franchises ect. dirk in the respect had a massive advantage over kg. i agree, they kind of complete each other. imagine one player with all that talent?

but its definitely debatable, which makes it so strange that KG isn't even mentioned on simmon's list.

Corey
03-11-2012, 03:45 PM
Dirk's lack of defense keeps him out of my top 3-4.

Hawkeye15
03-11-2012, 03:49 PM
Malone > Dirk
KG > Dirk
Sir Charles > Dirk

Nobody talked about Dirk before last season. If someone called Dirk the #2 best PF of All-Time or Top 12 player ever in like 2010 or 2009 you would get laughed at. Dirk is great dont get me wrong, but lets hop off the bandwagon, shall we?

I mean, Dirk was talked about plenty, but you don't just jump like 10 spots overall, and jump into the top 2 PF's from one good postseason run. Dirk was the man, but there have been a bunch of better postseason runs by great players. I agree with your first point however. Malone, KG, and Charles are all better than Dirk. Malone and Chuck were far better rebounders and just as great of scorers, KG was a much better two way player and rebounder.

CudiOnMyiPod
03-11-2012, 03:50 PM
i won't elaborate because i think we had this discussion more or less in the KG thread but the discussion from here concerns supporting casts, coaches, franchises ect. dirk in the respect had a massive advantage over . i agree, they kind of complete each other. imagine one player with all that talent?

but its definitely debatable, which makes it so strange that KG isn't even mentioned on simmon's list.

Yeah it's too close.

Dirk is a way better scorer and shooter.
Garnett is a way better defender.
Dirk is way better in the clutch.
Garnett is a way better passer.
Dirk is more of a winner.
Garnett is a better rebounder.

We all know what Dirk can do with good not great talent. He won a championship.

Garnett needed two future HOF who were still all stars and Rondo. However, Garnett was arguably the MVP (behind Pierce) with his defense and leadership.

It all depends. How would Garnett have done with a better team in Minny? No one knows.

They are inter changeable. It's like 1a and 1b. Really gets down to if you prefer a legendary defender or a legendary scorer.

KnicksorBust
03-11-2012, 03:50 PM
Dirk did something Barkley, Kg, and Malone never did. He won a title as THE MAN. That's not enough for him to leapfrog those guys? In my book, it is.

Iodine
03-11-2012, 03:53 PM
I am not really sure why we should care about how Bill Simmons rates players.......... Half of his stuff is just there to cause arguments

bholly
03-11-2012, 03:53 PM
Blake Griffin at #5 is interesting to me.. Ahead of CP3 and Dwight.

Anyways, I disagree. I still think KG was better in his prime. Dude delivered on both sides of the court.

He takes into account salaries and contracts and situations and what not. Blake wasn't even in the conversation for the CP3 trade, and Orlando would do Blake for Dwight while LAC would hardly even think about it. I think it makes sense.

His comment for CP3 and Wade is pretty spot on, though - at that point he's comparing guys who would never really be traded anyway (at least, not by the team's free will - of course a guy demanding a trade is a different situation), so it's pretty dumb.

John Walls Era
03-11-2012, 03:55 PM
Dirk did something Barkley, Kg, and Malone never did. He won a title as THE MAN. That's not enough for him to leapfrog those guys? In my book, it is.

Not gonna diminish what Dirk did last year, but that team was just so well put together. Solid starting 5, good scorer off the bench and played great D. KG never had a team like that as the man.

That being said, I still have Dirk in the top 5 PFs of all time.

D Roses Bulls
03-11-2012, 03:56 PM
Dirk did something Barkley, Kg, and Malone never did. He won a title as THE MAN. That's not enough for him to leapfrog those guys? In my book, it is.

you can't blame guys who didn't win a title in the 90's. that was michaels era. the rockets and spurs only won in the 90's because jordan retired. no offense to dirk, but he wouldn't have won either and in no way are you gonna tell me dirk is better then malone. I watched Malone play in 2 straight finals against the Bulls and most of Malone career and Malone would have destroyed Dirk.

thekmp211
03-11-2012, 04:03 PM
I am not really sure why we should care about how Bill Simmons rates players.......... Half of his stuff is just there to cause arguments

absolutely, but his historical ratings are usually pretty well thought out....and omitting a celtic is decidedly un-simmonsian. just seems a little off considering how kg is a pretty clear member of the conversation. maybe he just forgot..

BKdoubleStacker
03-11-2012, 04:04 PM
Yeah it's too close.

Dirk is a way better scorer and shooter.
Garnett is a way better defender.
Dirk is way better in the clutch.
Garnett is a way better passer.
Dirk is more of a winner.
Garnett is a better rebounder.

We all know what Dirk can do with good not great talent. He won a championship.

Garnett needed two future HOF who were still all stars and Rondo. However, Garnett was arguably the MVP (behind Pierce) with his defense and leadership.

It all depends. How would Garnett have done with a better team in Minny? No one knows.

They are inter changeable. It's like 1a and 1b. Really gets down to if you prefer a legendary defender or a legendary scorer.

no, its really not that close. I would take garnett over dirk any day of the week. Dirk is a better scorer, thats about it. dont pretend like garnett couldnt score either. His impact on the defensive end puts him above dirk.

Dirk had some great teams in the 2000s, so i dont get how you can say dirk is a better winner

bagwell368
03-11-2012, 04:06 PM
It's nonsense. I'm not even sure we have our terms defined.

Firstly, you have true 4's, true 3's and tweeners. Different skills and different uses. I can't see how if you must have a real tough productive (both sides of the ball) 4 that Dirk can be discussed with the elite such as Duncan, KG, Malone

As a 3 he's potentially interesting, but severely lacks the footspeed some of those guys had.

As a tweener he may be ranked highest, but he's never going to touch Bird.

If I had to field an all time great team, I could see considering Dirk, but he'd be an off the bench microwave type player, not a starter, he's not well rounded enough, and his "greatness" came onto the scene so late that Duncan and KG were already hitting their golden years as players. I have no doubt that each of the two in their prime would have routinely outplayed Dirk (and I'm not just talking points).

He's a special and unique player, but he is simply missing too many skills to be the best anything, unless its off the bench bomber forward - IMO.

thekmp211
03-11-2012, 04:07 PM
Not gonna diminish what Dirk did last year, but that team was just so well put together. Solid starting 5, good scorer off the bench and played great D. KG never had a team like that as the man.

That being said, I still have Dirk in the top 5 PFs of all time.

agreed, it was like a swiss-army knife of perfect role players and dirk just playing out of his ****ing mind. very unique team, and cool that they got it done.

Bruno
03-11-2012, 04:08 PM
Dirk did something Barkley, Kg, and Malone never did. He won a title as THE MAN. That's not enough for him to leapfrog those guys? In my book, it is.

it gets complicated with KG. he didn't win finals MVP, and he had tremendous help, but imo he was the most important player on that 2008 Celtics team. check out his stats, he dominated regular season and postseason PER, WS, and WS/48 for the C's. I think his presence is what changed the culture defensively in boston. I have Dirk third behind Duncan and KG.

http://www.basketball-reference.com/teams/BOS/2008.html

kjoke
03-11-2012, 04:08 PM
Malone gets shitted on way to much.

waveycrockett
03-11-2012, 04:10 PM
Except Bird is a SF. In this book he just ranks all forwards together, but as a PF it is Duncan than Dirk for him. Not that hard to figure out.

I figured that but I didn't read his book. His book is garbage and I don't understand for the life of me why anyone considers Simmons some kid of expert on the sport or analyst. He is a fan like the rest of us here. Nothing more or less.

bagwell368
03-11-2012, 04:12 PM
Yeah it's too close.

Dirk is a way better scorer and shooter.
Garnett is a way better defender.
Dirk is way better in the clutch.
Garnett is a way better passer.
Dirk is more of a winner.
Garnett is a better rebounder.

We all know what Dirk can do with good not great talent. He won a championship.

Garnett needed two future HOF who were still all stars and Rondo. However, Garnett was arguably the MVP (behind Pierce) with his defense and leadership.

It all depends. How would Garnett have done with a better team in Minny? No one knows.

They are inter changeable. It's like 1a and 1b. Really gets down to if you prefer a legendary defender or a legendary scorer.

KG, PP, and RA were all over the hill - and make no mistake, KG was the main piece in the team. Look at the DRtg before him and others came along with him. PP and RA hardly ever played D until KG and the current Bulls Coach showed up to show them how it was done. That was a great defensive team, and KG also well outplayed PP in the playoffs until the Finals when it all caught up to him. He should have been the MVP that year, not just defensive player of the year.

KG has a more well rounded game, and KG offense is better then Dirk's defense.

How do you get Dirk is more of a winner? That's just words - let's see the proof. They both have one title each last I checked and that's all either of them will get unless Dirk gets dealt to help out some young team in the next few years.

CityofTreez
03-11-2012, 04:18 PM
I should've known Simmons, a Ring says everything about your career.

I'll never forget Dirk coming into the League and just shoot. He relied on Nash to dish him, and he was almost a SF for a good time in his career. Now, he's put together a great resume, but Barkley was one of the better PF's, along with KG and Malone. They knew how to utlilize their skills other than scoring.

bagwell368
03-11-2012, 04:22 PM
As to Bird - he played more #3 then #4, but played a lot of #4 - why?

When him and McHale were on the floor, McHale always drew the better offensive player be it the #3 or the #4 (here is where you can see DWS is nonsense sometimes because Bird gets higher grades then McHale (even if you adjust for minutes played), but that's because he covered a lot of guys like Caldwell Jones or Steve Mix). They get 5 points on 5 FG and 1 FT and Bird looks like a hero. McHales guys would score more (using a lot more FGA, but almost always finish below their average PPG - where I come from that means McHale was better - clearly. He played the tougher guy and kept him below his average more then Bird did.

It was more complex with Maxwell and Bird, usually Maxwell was the #4, but not always. Against tall and untalented offensive #4's Bird would often get the call.

Also sometimes McHale played Center and Bird then played #4.

My estimate is that Bird was 60% #3 and 40% #4 on defense. On offense of course he was point forward or if you like #3 - from day 1 until day last.

Hope that helps.

IndyRealist
03-11-2012, 04:25 PM
Dirk's lack of defense keeps him out of my top 3-4.

This. He's much better now, but he hasn't had the career that some HOF'ers have. Only in the last few years has he developed a post game and started playing D. He definitely puts up some unique numbers for a big, but not top 2.

And Arvydas Sabonis is probably the greatest international basketball player ever.

Jarvo
03-11-2012, 04:32 PM
Dirk better than KG!?

ARE YOU SERIOUS BRO!?!?

Jarvo
03-11-2012, 04:34 PM
I should've known Simmons, a Ring says everything about your career.

I'll never forget Dirk coming into the League and just shoot. He relied on Nash to dish him, and he was almost a SF for a good time in his career. Now, he's put together a great resume, but Barkley was one of the better PF's, along with KG and Malone. They knew how to utlilize their skills other than scoring.


AWESOME SIG BRO! Love that joint from redman

Chronz
03-11-2012, 04:37 PM
What does the top 5 look like in terms of intangibles?

thekmp211
03-11-2012, 04:37 PM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yfVQwMl2NDI

i'll let this video be my parting thought on the subject. trenton hassell and earvin johnson starting. and then kg does THAT...The Big Ticket. ****ing great nick name. #2 for me.

edit: @4:45 perhaps kevin HARLANS finest career moment in the very same game.

"brad miller trying to dance with garnett and that's tough cause when Kevin kicks up his heels, baby, it's tough to dance the same watusi down low."

wow.

Hellcrooner
03-11-2012, 04:41 PM
:chirp:

ebbucsfan
03-11-2012, 04:49 PM
Dirk's only claim to greatness is his offense, which really isnt that much better than other great power forwards if better at all.

The most PPG Dirk ever averaged was 26.6. Karl Malone had 9 seasons averaging more points per game. Barkley had 2 seasons averaging more points per game. Elvin hayes had 3 seasons averaging more points per game. Bob Pettit had 6 seasons averaging more points per game.

The most APG Dirk ever averaged was 3.5. Karl Malone had 11 seasons averaging more assists per game. Garnett had 10 seasons averaging more assists per game. Barkley had 12 seasons averaging more assists. Pettit had 2 seasons averaging more assists per game.

Dirk's shoots a career 47.5% from the field. Karl Malone shoots a career 51.6% from the field. Garnett shoots a career 49.9% from the field. Barkley shoots a career 54.1% from the field.

Then there is a huge list of power forwards that absolutely dominate Dirk in terms of rebounds, steals, and blocks. I'd say if I was ranking a top 10 PF's of all time he would fall in the 7-10 range. In no way would I consider him in a top 12 players of all time list.

BklyNyk
03-11-2012, 04:59 PM
I like Nowitzki but let's get real, the man is a below average defender and rebounder.

bagwell368
03-11-2012, 06:03 PM
Dirk's only claim to greatness is his offense, which really isnt that much better than other great power forwards if better at all.

The most PPG Dirk ever averaged was 26.6. Karl Malone had 9 seasons averaging more points per game. Barkley had 2 seasons averaging more points per game. Elvin hayes had 3 seasons averaging more points per game. Bob Pettit had 6 seasons averaging more points per game.

The most APG Dirk ever averaged was 3.5. Karl Malone had 11 seasons averaging more assists per game. Garnett had 10 seasons averaging more assists per game. Barkley had 12 seasons averaging more assists. Pettit had 2 seasons averaging more assists per game.

Dirk's shoots a career 47.5% from the field. Karl Malone shoots a career 51.6% from the field. Garnett shoots a career 49.9% from the field. Barkley shoots a career 54.1% from the field.

Then there is a huge list of power forwards that absolutely dominate Dirk in terms of rebounds, steals, and blocks. I'd say if I was ranking a top 10 PF's of all time he would fall in the 7-10 range. In no way would I consider him in a top 12 players of all time list.

I'm not as I said buying Dirk at #2, but to compare any other forward with a long career in outside shooting (say 18" and beyond) to anyone but Bird is crazy. Dirk kills them all. OTOH, McHale, Malone, Duncan and others are far superior near the basket, which is after all more the resume of a #4. So if Dirk's game is more like a #3, why is he being considered a #4? Maybe by size, but by shooting distance/face up to the basket he's a #3 gun, not a #4 - or at the very least some sort of tweener, but he's not a #4. And if you insist he is, he's not plus in low post offense, defense or rebounding so don't be talking #2, that's merely an overheated joke, come back 10 years after he retires and his placement will be much more solidified and a good deal lower then #2.

llemon
03-11-2012, 06:07 PM
Everyone has their own ratings and rankings of NBA players

Iodine
03-11-2012, 06:10 PM
Dirk's only claim to greatness is his offense, which really isnt that much better than other great power forwards if better at all.

The most PPG Dirk ever averaged was 26.6. Karl Malone had 9 seasons averaging more points per game. Barkley had 2 seasons averaging more points per game. Elvin hayes had 3 seasons averaging more points per game. Bob Pettit had 6 seasons averaging more points per game.

The most APG Dirk ever averaged was 3.5. Karl Malone had 11 seasons averaging more assists per game. Garnett had 10 seasons averaging more assists per game. Barkley had 12 seasons averaging more assists. Pettit had 2 seasons averaging more assists per game.

Dirk's shoots a career 47.5% from the field. Karl Malone shoots a career 51.6% from the field. Garnett shoots a career 49.9% from the field. Barkley shoots a career 54.1% from the field.

Then there is a huge list of power forwards that absolutely dominate Dirk in terms of rebounds, steals, and blocks. I'd say if I was ranking a top 10 PF's of all time he would fall in the 7-10 range. In no way would I consider him in a top 12 players of all time list.

I stopped reading after you compared him to ****ing Elvin Hayes. Stop.

KnicksorBust
03-11-2012, 06:13 PM
Not gonna diminish what Dirk did last year, but that team was just so well put together. Solid starting 5, good scorer off the bench and played great D. KG never had a team like that as the man.

That being said, I still have Dirk in the top 5 PFs of all time.

Dirk's supporting cast was not nearly as amazing as people make it out to seem.

Chandler was superb but has never made an All-Star team. Jason Terry had a hot hand the whole playoffs. Other than that it's a way past his prime Kidd averaging 9-7. A way past his prime Marion averaging 12-6. And a bunch of role players.

Dirk averaged 28-8-3 with a 61% TS that postseason and knocked off the Lakers-Thunder-Heat in consecutive series. That's the toughest part about all sports. He raised his game to its highest level at the most important part of his career. That same comment can't be said about Malone or Barkley. KG has an argument for 08 but I've always thought of that as Pierce's team. With the exception of the last game, KG looked like he might be pulling another disappearing act in that Finals.

LakersMaster24
03-11-2012, 06:16 PM
I mean, Dirk was talked about plenty, but you don't just jump like 10 spots overall, and jump into the top 2 PF's from one good postseason run. Dirk was the man, but there have been a bunch of better postseason runs by great players. I agree with your first point however. Malone, KG, and Charles are all better than Dirk. Malone and Chuck were far better rebounders and just as great of scorers, KG was a much better two way player and rebounder.

Thats what I mean. Dirk was always a good player, but that post season he had (which was amazing) really caused this frenzy. As you said it shouldnt be enough to make him jump 10 spots.

Lo Porto
03-11-2012, 06:19 PM
2 problems I have with this:

#1 - Dirk is not better than Malone because Malone was an impact on both ends of the floor. Dirk deserves to skyrocket up the rankings due to last year, but he'd need two more similar seasons to even be compared to Malone.

#2 - Duncan is not a PF. Even when he was young, Robinson defended opposing PF's. Duncan hiding under the position of PF is one of the biggest jokes in sports history. Duncan has been paired with McDyess (PF his whole career), Blair (6'9" PF), and so many others through the years on top of super athletic Robinson guarding the opposing PF's. It's obvious by how he plays and who he guards (always the least athletic big man on the other team) that he's a center.

thekmp211
03-11-2012, 06:31 PM
2 problems I have with this:

#1 - Dirk is not better than Malone because Malone was an impact on both ends of the floor. Dirk deserves to skyrocket up the rankings due to last year, but he'd need two more similar seasons to even be compared to Malone.

#2 - Duncan is not a PF. Even when he was young, Robinson defended opposing PF's. Duncan hiding under the position of PF is one of the biggest jokes in sports history. Duncan has been paired with McDyess (PF his whole career), Blair (6'9" PF), and so many others through the years on top of super athletic Robinson guarding the opposing PF's. It's obvious by how he plays and who he guards (always the least athletic big man on the other team) that he's a center.

very very true. not diminishing duncans talents at all but for all intents and purposes #2 is 100% true and worth considering, if we are really doing the conversation justice.

Blitzbolt
03-11-2012, 07:12 PM
What annoys me is that some people are already putting Kevin Love ahead of Dirk people need to respect him little more.

KB-Pau-DH2012
03-11-2012, 07:14 PM
Dirk's lack of defense keeps him out of my top 3-4.

I totally agree with this statement.

KnicksorBust
03-11-2012, 07:17 PM
Dirk's lack of defense keeps him out of my top 3-4.

Then you must really have a problem with Magic.

naps
03-11-2012, 07:38 PM
So Dirk hasn't gotten overrated after winning that championship?

JordansBulls
03-11-2012, 07:44 PM
So Dirk hasn't gotten overrated after winning that championship?

Led a franchise to 10 seasons in a row of 50+ wins yearly, has a league and finals mvp as well and was the only allstar on a team that won the title last season. He was already considered 5th-6th as a PF and upsetting the guys he did last season certainly can propel him above others who had not won titles as the man.

waveycrockett
03-11-2012, 08:29 PM
Then you must really have a problem with Magic.

Have a problem with a guy who has like 10 rings? lol.

Raph12
03-11-2012, 08:55 PM
So much disrespect towards TD, Chuck, Malone and KG... Ugh.

waveycrockett
03-11-2012, 09:09 PM
So much disrespect towards TD, Chuck, Malone and KG... Ugh.

In fairness TD shouldn't be considered a PF. He's played more minutes at the Center position in his career than at PF.

lavilevi23
03-11-2012, 09:13 PM
Bill Simmons.......:rolleyes:

Raph12
03-11-2012, 09:19 PM
In fairness TD shouldn't be considered a PF. He's played more minutes at the Center position in his career than at PF.

Well then he can be put on both lists; greatest PF of all-time and Top 6-10 center of all-time.

naps
03-11-2012, 09:24 PM
Led a franchise to 10 seasons in a row of 50+ wins yearly, has a league and finals mvp as well and was the only allstar on a team that won the title last season. He was already considered 5th-6th as a PF and upsetting the guys he did last season certainly can propel him above others who had not won titles as the man.

Except guys like Barkley, Malone, KG were all flat out better players. I don't know if you watched them play live but whatever. I am not getting into anything with you because I know you are gonna start posting your gigantic saved ESPN predictions, SRS, HCA stuff and go off-topic.

theheatles
03-11-2012, 09:25 PM
"LeBron would have a chance for four straight MVPs if The Decision didn't unleash last spring's "I just don't feel right about voting for him, I'm picking Derrick Rose" backlash that eventually corrupted too many voters and media people. Including me."

at least simmons admits the truth even though it was after the fact

BULLSFAN0810
03-11-2012, 09:54 PM
PPL DONT SEE THIS ERA HAS SOME GREAT PFs, ALL OF WHOM BASICALLY ARE INTERCHANGEABLE IMO. SUCCESS IMO WAS DETERMINED BY TEAMS AND COACHES...ALL WERE EQUAL

BULLSFAN0810
03-11-2012, 09:59 PM
"LeBron would have a chance for four straight MVPs if The Decision didn't unleash last spring's "I just don't feel right about voting for him, I'm picking Derrick Rose" backlash that eventually corrupted too many voters and media people. Including me."

at least simmons admits the truth even though it was after the fact

MAN SHUT THIS ISH UP...IM TIRED OF PPL TALKING LBJ ISH...YES HE IS GOOD...BUT HE SOLD HIS MVP CLAIM WHEN HE ADDED 2 OTHER ALLSTARS UNDER 30 AND LEFT HIS TEAM....HIS TEAM!. DONT ACT AS IF ROSE DIDNT HAVE A GREAT YEAR WITH EVERYONE GUNNING AT HIM...NO ONE GUNs AT LBJ..PLUS THIS IS OUT OF THEME...UCKING HATERS!

Raph12
03-11-2012, 10:16 PM
MAN SHUT THIS ISH UP...IM TIRED OF PPL TALKING LBJ ISH...YES HE IS GOOD...BUT HE SOLD HIS MVP CLAIM WHEN HE ADDED 2 OTHER ALLSTARS UNDER 30 AND LEFT HIS TEAM....HIS TEAM!. DONT ACT AS IF ROSE DIDNT HAVE A GREAT YEAR WITH EVERYONE GUNNING AT HIM...NO ONE GUNs AT LBJ..PLUS THIS IS OUT OF THEME...UCKING HATERS!

Lebron for 2011-12 NBA MVP!!! :hide:

llemon
03-11-2012, 10:46 PM
This is a very funny/ridiculous thread.

ghettosean
03-11-2012, 10:50 PM
"LeBron would have a chance for four straight MVPs if The Decision didn't unleash last spring's "I just don't feel right about voting for him, I'm picking Derrick Rose" backlash that eventually corrupted too many voters and media people. Including me."

at least simmons admits the truth even though it was after the fact


Lebron for 2011-12 NBA MVP!!! :hide:

Some of you heat fans going overboard and acting like a bunch of douches by just posting whatever Lebron crap you want in any thread you feel like. Seriously start your own MVP thread if you don't want to talk about Dirk and what the thread was intended for and stop acting like a bunch of 13 year old trolls.

If you are 13 then I'm sorry for my harsh reaction that message is only intended if the above posters were adults.

HouRealCoach
03-11-2012, 10:55 PM
Dirk has no defense and barely rebounds and he's also soft I agree that Duncan, KG, Barkley, & Malone are cleary better but if Bird is considered a PF there is no ****ing way Dirk is ahead of him from whatever
angle u look at it...

HouRealCoach
03-11-2012, 11:01 PM
This. People seem to forget his like 200 first round exits or that whole defense thing that he has never played his entire life.

I mean Dirk's an amazing player but I'd take prime Garnett any day of the week and maybe even Barkley.

He has 4 first round exits and he is one of the greatest playoff performers of all time...

In 2004, he averaged 26.6 ppg and 11.8 rpg on 45% shooting.

In 2007, he averaged 19.7 ppg and 11.3 rpg on 39% shooting.

In 2008, he averaged 26.8 ppg and 12.0 rpg on 47% shooting.

In 2010, he averaged 26.7 ppg and 8.2 rpg on 54% shooting.

Aside from one bad series where he still averaged 19/11 he has had legendary playoff numbers.

And against Garnett in the playoffs, Dirk is 3-0 against him with games of 30/15, 31/15/ and 39/17.


You talk about Dirk's "200" first round exits (4) but fail to mention that Garnett didn't get out of the first round for 7 straight years (had really good numbers but not as good as Dirk.

Between Garnett and Dirk, neither one is ahead of the other. Garnett is a better rebounder, defender and passer while Dirk is the better scorer, clutch player and winner.

Kg was a better defender, rebounder, better passer... Only thing Dirk had on him was a jumpshot..

and Dirk always had a championship calibur squad around him... up until 2008 the best player KG played with was Sam Cassell

waveycrockett
03-11-2012, 11:03 PM
MAN SHUT THIS ISH UP...IM TIRED OF PPL TALKING LBJ ISH...YES HE IS GOOD...BUT HE SOLD HIS MVP CLAIM WHEN HE ADDED 2 OTHER ALLSTARS UNDER 30 AND LEFT HIS TEAM....HIS TEAM!. DONT ACT AS IF ROSE DIDNT HAVE A GREAT YEAR WITH EVERYONE GUNNING AT HIM...NO ONE GUNs AT LBJ..PLUS THIS IS OUT OF THEME...UCKING HATERS!

So by this logic Magic and Bird should have never won an MVP because they were surrounded by allstars and neither should Jordan because he played with 2 other allstars every year in Pippen/Rodman/Grant. What happens if Thunder get Dwight? Nobody on OKC can ever win an MVP?

Raph12
03-11-2012, 11:10 PM
Some of you heat fans going overboard and acting like a bunch of douches by just posting whatever Lebron crap you want in any thread you feel like. Seriously start your own MVP thread if you don't want to talk about Dirk and what the thread was intended for and stop acting like a bunch of 13 year old trolls.

If you are 13 then I'm sorry for my harsh reaction that message is only intended if the above posters were adults.

First of all, I'm a Magic fan, get it straight.

And a post like the one I responded to, deserved to be responded to that way. Saying Lebron shouldn't ever get another MVP (even when he deserves it) just because he joined Wade is stupid, plain and simple.

Oh and way to end a post about childish comments with one of your own, real mature.

Young2Kinsler
03-11-2012, 11:33 PM
I think Dirk falls somewhere in the middle. First, he's not probably a top 2 PF of all time right now, but an argument could be made for spots 3 all the way to 7. Overall, I will say he is a top 25 player in NBA history.

The guy isn't a first team all defender, but he does play pretty good team defense, especially over the last 5 years, and has become a better on the ball defender on the block.

I've said this for a long time, but the toughest shot to guard and contest is Dirk's fade away. He has some amazing qualities, and some flaws for sure. A great player, the most fun I have ever had watching someone on a franchise I root for.

CudiOnMyiPod
03-11-2012, 11:47 PM
Dirk has no defense and barely rebounds and he's also soft I agree that Duncan, KG, Barkley, & Malone are cleary better but if Bird is considered a PF there is no ****ing way Dirk is ahead of him from whatever
angle u look at it...

Dirk averages 8.4 rpg in 994 games during the regular season.
Dirk averages 10.4 rpg in 124 games during the playoffs.

But that is barely rebounding...

Dirk is soft?

- He's missed like 30 games in his career
- He has played many times with a twisted ankle/hurt leg
- He had a 103 fever in a Finals game and ended up hitting the game winning shot
- He had a broken/fractured finger in a Finals game and hit the game winning shot

Keep hating though.

BULLSFAN0810
03-12-2012, 12:17 AM
Lebron for 2011-12 NBA MVP!!! :hide:


To be honest,i did have him as MVP bc Wade was injured,and he put up good numbers,then he did the passing up shots thing and that kinda killed it for me .

Raph12
03-12-2012, 12:43 AM
To be honest,i did have him as MVP bc Wade was injured,and he put up good numbers,then he did the passing up shots thing and that kinda killed it for me .

What about how clutch he was in that Pacers game? Wade is the "goto" guy in Miami, which I think is a good idea because Lebron always tries to get the "best" shot, instead of just forcing one no matter what... I'd argue Durant has a better team than Lebron if you take both guys out, so denying him MVP just because of his team is stupid IMO.

todu82
03-12-2012, 10:02 AM
Dirk's had a good career but I'd choose Duncan, Malone and Barkley as better power forwards all-time over him.

LA_Raiders
03-12-2012, 11:46 AM
lol, Irk is a Top 10 PF and a Top 50 Player...

ghettosean
03-12-2012, 11:58 AM
First of all, I'm a Magic fan, get it straight.

And a post like the one I responded to, deserved to be responded to that way. Saying Lebron shouldn't ever get another MVP (even when he deserves it) just because he joined Wade is stupid, plain and simple.

Oh and way to end a post about childish comments with one of your own, real mature.
Sorry didn't know your age and didn't want to be insulting so you are an adult then right and you know that this is not the MVP thread.

There is an actual thread for this discussion (more than one actually) and you carrying on with the topic between a select few doesn't really make you look more mature than me or others so sorry. If you want to debate about MVP please post your comments there or not at all. Don't punish people who want to read the current thread topic because you want to boast Lebron for MVP.

Please stop polluting other threads with your MVP propaganda and post this stuff where the topic exists! Grow up dude!

Deemerc
03-12-2012, 12:02 PM
Hate to say it's probably cus dirk is white

Raidaz4Life
03-12-2012, 12:04 PM
The amount of disrespect Karl Malone is shown just because he never won a title is astounding.

Malone
Barkley
KG


are all better PF's than Dirk and I LOVE Dirk. If the question were best scorer at the PF position then he might have an argument, but basketball is so much more than ability to score.

kdspurman
03-12-2012, 12:11 PM
Dirk's lack of defense keeps him out of my top 3-4.

I agree with this. Previous to him winning a title, he was never even mentioned as a top 5 PF.

NoahH
03-12-2012, 12:27 PM
No way he's better than Barkley or the Mailman

JayW_1023
03-12-2012, 02:04 PM
Dirk averages 8.4 rpg in 994 games during the regular season.
Dirk averages 10.4 rpg in 124 games during the playoffs.

But that is barely rebounding...

Dirk is soft?

- He's missed like 30 games in his career
- He has played many times with a twisted ankle/hurt leg
- He had a 103 fever in a Finals game and ended up hitting the game winning shot
- He had a broken/fractured finger in a Finals game and hit the game winning shot

Keep hating though.

Dirk is one of the toughest guys in the league. He is called soft because of Dallas' past playoff meltdowns before they won the title. Which Dirk wasn't really much to blame for. His MVP season, he showed what a great all-round player he was, not just a scorer.

JordansBulls
03-12-2012, 05:33 PM
This is a very funny/ridiculous thread.

In what way.

Raph12
03-12-2012, 05:45 PM
Sorry didn't know your age and didn't want to be insulting so you are an adult then right and you know that this is not the MVP thread.

There is an actual thread for this discussion (more than one actually) and you carrying on with the topic between a select few doesn't really make you look more mature than me or others so sorry. If you want to debate about MVP please post your comments there or not at all. Don't punish people who want to read the current thread topic because you want to boast Lebron for MVP.

Please stop polluting other threads with your MVP propaganda and post this stuff where the topic exists! Grow up dude!

Excuse me grandpa, but this isn't your "good ol" '60s anymore; I'll do what I want, when I want and if you don't like it, tough.

As for using other threads to "boast Lebron for MVP", I don't need to do that, he does that on his own. I responded to a post, in a manner befitting of the post itself.

valade16
03-12-2012, 05:52 PM
No way he's better than Barkley or the Mailman

X2

People talk about Dirk's amazing offensive game as if Malone and Barkeley didn't average as many or more points as Dirk throughout their careers. Oh, and they did it on insane efficiency too each averaging over 50% and even 60% FG most years (Barkley even led the league in TS% 4 straight times).

Dirk's best PER is 28.1, and both Barkley and Malone topped it (28.9).

Then you add in rebounding and defense and it's painfully obvious Barkley and Malone were superior PFs.

I have Duncan, Barkley, Malone for sure better, KG at least tied with Dirk, if not better.

ManningToTyree
03-12-2012, 05:53 PM
Simmons is a moron

KnicksorBust
03-12-2012, 06:04 PM
The amount of disrespect Karl Malone is shown just because he never won a title is astounding.

Malone
Barkley
KG


are all better PF's than Dirk and I LOVE Dirk. If the question were best scorer at the PF position then he might have an argument, but basketball is so much more than ability to score.

So because Dirk has no all-defensive teams, he's never allowed to pass these players historically? If that's a qualification of an all-time great than Magic Johnson has some explaining to do.

KnicksorBust
03-12-2012, 06:05 PM
Also Barkley's defense is getting absurdly overrated as he gets lumped in with KG and Malone in this discussion.

valade16
03-12-2012, 06:20 PM
Also Barkley's defense is getting absurdly overrated as he gets lumped in with KG and Malone in this discussion.

Barkley's defense is closer to Malone/KG's than it is to Dirk's...

Also, statistically Barkley is a more efficient offensive threat who also gets more rebounds and assists, while having better defense.

To me Barkley is clearly superior to Dirk...

BlondeBomber41
03-12-2012, 06:45 PM
I agree with him. I think it's pretty telling that over 10-12 years Dirk has had an ever changing cast of players around him but has always had the Mavs at the top or near the top of the West.

I don't believe KG was ever a TRUE #1 option on a team that could contend for a championship. Of course when you throw Paul Pierce and Ray Allen and Rajon Rondo on his team he can win a title but Dirk did it without another All Star caliber player.

Dirk isn't as bad as a defender as some people make him out to be. He is a average defender, he isn't a bad or awful defender. Seeing that the Mavs have been one of the better defensive teams in the league for years now with Dirk as a 40 minute a night kinda guy, it's not that hard to argue that he doesn't hurt a defense and with him height and ability to move his feet and be active compared to other 7 footers I have no doubt he helps the defense.

As far as rebounding, he is one of like 3 players all time to average 25+ points and 10+ rebounds for his career in the playoffs so I'd say he more than holds his own on the boards.

I know that if I'm drafting a team from a rookie pool of KG, Dirk, Charles Barkley, Karl Malone etc. that I'd take Dirk. He's the only guy I've seen that could carry a team offensively on his back consistently for years like Dirk has.

valade16
03-12-2012, 06:59 PM
I know that if I'm drafting a team from a rookie pool of KG, Dirk, Charles Barkley, Karl Malone etc. that I'd take Dirk. He's the only guy I've seen that could carry a team offensively on his back consistently for years like Dirk has.

Clearly, you never saw Jordan...

BKdoubleStacker
03-12-2012, 07:32 PM
I agree with him. I think it's pretty telling that over 10-12 years Dirk has had an ever changing cast of players around him but has always had the Mavs at the top or near the top of the West.

I don't believe KG was ever a TRUE #1 option on a team that could contend for a championship. Of course when you throw Paul Pierce and Ray Allen and Rajon Rondo on his team he can win a title but Dirk did it without another All Star caliber player.

Dirk isn't as bad as a defender as some people make him out to be. He is a average defender, he isn't a bad or awful defender. Seeing that the Mavs have been one of the better defensive teams in the league for years now with Dirk as a 40 minute a night kinda guy, it's not that hard to argue that he doesn't hurt a defense and with him height and ability to move his feet and be active compared to other 7 footers I have no doubt he helps the defense.

As far as rebounding, he is one of like 3 players all time to average 25+ points and 10+ rebounds for his career in the playoffs so I'd say he more than holds his own on the boards.

I know that if I'm drafting a team from a rookie pool of KG, Dirk, Charles Barkley, Karl Malone etc. that I'd take Dirk. He's the only guy I've seen that could carry a team offensively on his back consistently for years like Dirk has.

So the number of all stars dictates how good your teammates are?? The mavericks were the deepest team last year, with a very solid starting 5. Dont pretend like Dirk completely carried the team. and dont pretend like he didnt have a lot of good teams throughout his career.

Boozer has been on the best defensive team the last couple years, I guess that means he isnt a bad defender.

I just dont get how dirk is better than kg. Kg makes an impact on both ends, dirk does not. Kg was a very capable scorer as well, although not as good as dirk. But Dirk's defense is no where near Kg's level.

theDOC
03-12-2012, 08:27 PM
when I think of the best power forwards of all time, I think: Malone, Dirk, Barkley, Garnett, and Duncan (if we're calling Duncan a power forward).

it's silly to say someone was 'better' because the reality of it is each player did things the others didn't or couldn't, each of them had their strengths, and it's just too general of a question. we ask these questions because we always want to know who is the best, and everyone thinks there has to be an answer.

I guess I'd tackle that question by saying: if I was starting a team, who would I want most?

1) Tim Duncan: won 4 championships with the Spurs, maybe the most fundamentally sound big man ever. he just did everything right. wasn't the physical specimen Malone was, wasn't the shooter Dirk was, but was consistently great and it lead to 4 championships.

2) Karl Malone: the strongest player I have ever seen come into the league. played like a man among boys at times. not any real weakness in his game. only thing that keeps him from being #1 is championships, which may not be fair, but it is reality. I still think he was better than Dirk, even though he never had a run like Dirk did in 2011.

3) Dirk Nowitzki: best half court offensive power forward hands down. his game has really developed since he came into the league. his playoff performance last year was second to nobody on the list, which is why I'd put him above Garnett and Barkley. wasn't the defender Duncan or Malone was and wasn't ever a great transition scorer. a solid rebounder and has developed into a good, fundamentally sound defender.

4) Kevin Garnett: the word that comes to mind when I think of Garnett is 'gamer'. just shows/showed up to play ever game. wasn't the halfcourt scorer Dirk was, but a much better defender. ran the floor well, made big plays on both sides. never really considered him someone who took over in big games.

5) Charles Barkley: so good offensively, and a fighter on the boards. pretty good defensively, although he was undersized. only reason I'd put him behind Garnett is his defense. Barkley was not only a great halfcourt offensive player, but he made plays in transition as well.

C_Mund
03-13-2012, 12:06 AM
the complete omission of KG puzzled me. i'd like to know why he did that, because he didn't just forget about garnett.

edit: as far as dirk is concerned, i think he's overrating a bit. the player dirk became, eventually, i guess is deserving of the mention. but to me his career deficiencies have been swept under the rug a bit since he won the ring. they do not hold as much weight now that he has a ring, but the long-standing questions about dirks rebounding and defense to me hurt his claim significantly. espeically when duncan, for one, was an exceptional rebounder and defender.

that said, dirk of last season is probably the most dangerous forward outside of duncan because of his almost mathematically perfect offensive game. so difficult to stop. i'm just not going to ignore the rest of his career as a result. interesting question.

Well put. But there's a few other pf's on that list that were all-offense and complete non-entities on defense as well. I don't understand the whole KG thing either because Garnett and TD could eventually be considered 1-2 on that list. I think it's just hard to put many people over Dirk exactly because of the last few minutes of every game in the playoffs last year.

C_Mund
03-13-2012, 12:15 AM
X2

People talk about Dirk's amazing offensive game as if Malone and Barkeley didn't average as many or more points as Dirk throughout their careers. Oh, and they did it on insane efficiency too each averaging over 50% and even 60% FG most years (Barkley even led the league in TS% 4 straight times).

Dirk's best PER is 28.1, and both Barkley and Malone topped it (28.9).

Then you add in rebounding and defense and it's painfully obvious Barkley and Malone were superior PFs.

I have Duncan, Barkley, Malone for sure better, KG at least tied with Dirk, if not better.

I don't know much about advanced stats it today's game, let alone past generations. But as far as I can remember Barkley was actually a pretty poor (albeit physical) defender, and Mailman was a bit better but not much. Also Karl Malone almost never played with anybody but John Stockton. Again, not to take away from one HOF player, but when you're the best pick and roll combo of all time some of the credit needs to go to the guy handling the ball.

SanAntonioSpurs23
03-13-2012, 02:58 AM
I just wanted to clear something up about Duncan. Yeah hes primarily played center over the past 5 years, but that is just because the Spurs have failed to get a quality big man to put along side of him. Now that Timmy has lost a step he can no longer play the 4 and keep up with the more athletic guys out there.

With that said people are forgetting about Rasho, Nazr Mohmammed, Oberto, and Robinson. All of those years Tim played PF for the most part. Someone mentioned that when Robinson was around, Tim guarded the 5's and not the 4's. Other than a few instances I don't recall much of that. (Especially after 99). I especially remember Timmy guarding Kenyon Martin in that 03 finals. I think K-Mart shot like 1-13 or some ish in game 4? Or 5? What about the battles with Amare in 05 and 07? He guarded KG when the Wolves made the PO that one year. He guarded Dirk in 06, Gasol in 08, and got curb stomped by Randolph last year.....

Korman12
03-13-2012, 03:20 AM
It's not an easy argument to make, I think, one way or the other. If Duncan is the sure-fire #1 in everyone's books (which, come on, he should be), the compelling argument for where Dirk, Malone, Barkley, and Garnett go should make us all hesitate any order we think is right.

UnWantedTheory
03-13-2012, 04:00 AM
Seeing all of these guys play in their primes, I would definitely put Malone, Sir Charles, and KG ahead of Dirk.

Dirk has developed into a decent well rounded player, but it took him most of his career to finally get there.

BlondeBomber41
03-13-2012, 11:57 AM
So the number of all stars dictates how good your teammates are?? The mavericks were the deepest team last year, with a very solid starting 5. Dont pretend like Dirk completely carried the team. and dont pretend like he didnt have a lot of good teams throughout his career.

Boozer has been on the best defensive team the last couple years, I guess that means he isnt a bad defender.

I just dont get how dirk is better than kg. Kg makes an impact on both ends, dirk does not. Kg was a very capable scorer as well, although not as good as dirk. But Dirk's defense is no where near Kg's level.

Yeah, offensively not having any other All Star caliber players is quite a big deal. When the Mavs get into a close game everything runs through Dirk Nowitzki, just like everything runs through Kobe Bryant, Dwyane Wade before LBJ arrived, etc. When you have other All Stars who can carry the team then it takes alot of pressure off of you. Other than a pity nomination basically due to injury for Jason Kidd a few years ago and Josh Howard a few years before that making it due to injury, Dirk hasn't had any All Star teammates and hasn't had a true #2 scorer since the days of Steve Nash and Michael Finley.

KG was a capable scorer of course, but when it comes to scoring and his ability to carry a team down the stretch, he has never been on Dirks level. In fact I will easily argue that as much as KG is better than Dirk defensively, Dirk is just as much better than KG offensively, especially when it comes to straight up carrying an offense on his back like Dirk does.

JordansBulls
03-13-2012, 11:58 AM
No way he's better than Barkley or the Mailman

Career wise it is arguable, peak wise he isn't.

NJBASEBALL22
03-13-2012, 10:41 PM
Career wise it is arguable, peak wise he isn't.

I don't think you can argue Dirk having a better peak than Mailman or Barkley... or Duncan or KG for that matter.

All four of them were better all around players in Dirk...

To me, KG is the most complete PF I've ever seen (unless you count Bird). Duncan's strengths may have been better than KG's, but KG didn't have a weakness and in his prime could play the 3, the 4 and the 5- on offense and defense. KG was the best rebounder in the league for 4 seasons and the best defensive forward in the game for 9 years. On offense, he didn't have a post game like Timmy D (not to say KG wasn't good in the post, because he was still good) but he could do more things on offense than Timmy (and Dirk too) including passing, J up to 20 ft. (Dirk has that with more rage) and he could handle the rock. To me, it isn't even close... my order of "modern" PF's looks like this: 1. KG 2. TD (I understand if you take him at 1) 3. Mailman 4. Barkley 5. McHale 6. Dirk. Rodman cracks my top 10.

Bos_Sports4Life
03-14-2012, 01:37 AM
Why does pettit never get mention for top 5?

- 10x 1st team selection
- 2x League MVP/2 2nd place finnishes/1 3rd place finnish/3 4th place finnishes
- 13th All Time in career WS/48
- 7th All Time in Career PER

NJBASEBALL22
03-14-2012, 02:23 AM
Yeah, offensively not having any other All Star caliber players is quite a big deal. When the Mavs get into a close game everything runs through Dirk Nowitzki, just like everything runs through Kobe Bryant, Dwyane Wade before LBJ arrived, etc. When you have other All Stars who can carry the team then it takes alot of pressure off of you. Other than a pity nomination basically due to injury for Jason Kidd a few years ago and Josh Howard a few years before that making it due to injury, Dirk hasn't had any All Star teammates and hasn't had a true #2 scorer since the days of Steve Nash and Michael Finley.

KG was a capable scorer of course, but when it comes to scoring and his ability to carry a team down the stretch, he has never been on Dirks level. In fact I will easily argue that as much as KG is better than Dirk defensively, Dirk is just as much better than KG offensively, especially when it comes to straight up carrying an offense on his back like Dirk does.

Please do... because I don't think it is even close.

KG's prime (98-06) 9 seasons
ppg 22.4 rpg 12.6 apg 5.0 spg 1.4 bpg 1.6 tov 2.8
fg/3fg/ft 49.1/29.3/78.7
17.9 shots per game, 5.9 ft attempts a game
all defense 1st team x9, 2nd team x2
all nba 1st team x4, 2nd team x3
DPOY and MVP

Dirk's prime (00-10) 11 seasons
ppg 24.3 rpg 8.8 apg 2.8 spg .9 bpg 1 tov 2.0
fg/3fg/ft 47.9/38.5/88.2
17.7 shots per game, 6.9 FT per game
0 first team and second team all defense combined
all NBA 1st team x4, 2nd team x4
MVP and Finals MVP

KG did get robbed of a finals MVP though. KG was the leagues top rebounder 4 straight years and led the league in scoring once.... something Dirk never did. Dirk's mystique comes from not only the quantity of his points but the efficiency in which he shoots and scores. Where Dirk succeeds in shooting the deep ball, KG was more comfortable handling the ball and passing... plus a better post player. Add in, Dirk's career coincides more with the whole hand-check era which makes it easier to go to the line, which adds a handful of points a game. Malone and Barkley were both better scorers and better from 15 ft and in... the PF's job most would say. Barkley was an amazing post player at 6'4.5 and Malone was a monster slasher. Their games, also KG and Duncan, were based on power, whereas Dirk's game relies on craftiness and finesse.

NJBASEBALL22
03-14-2012, 02:36 AM
Dirk's best seasons averages of rebounds, assists, blocks, and steals are not higher than KG's career averages. Incredible.

NJBASEBALL22
03-14-2012, 02:36 AM
Why does pettit never get mention for top 5?

- 10x 1st team selection
- 2x League MVP/2 2nd place finnishes/1 3rd place finnish/3 4th place finnishes
- 13th All Time in career WS/48
- 7th All Time in Career PER

I made it a point to talk about "modern" forwards.

JordansBulls
03-15-2012, 02:35 PM
I don't think you can argue Dirk having a better peak than Mailman or Barkley... or Duncan or KG for that matter.

All four of them were better all around players in Dirk...

To me, KG is the most complete PF I've ever seen (unless you count Bird). Duncan's strengths may have been better than KG's, but KG didn't have a weakness and in his prime could play the 3, the 4 and the 5- on offense and defense. KG was the best rebounder in the league for 4 seasons and the best defensive forward in the game for 9 years. On offense, he didn't have a post game like Timmy D (not to say KG wasn't good in the post, because he was still good) but he could do more things on offense than Timmy (and Dirk too) including passing, J up to 20 ft. (Dirk has that with more rage) and he could handle the rock. To me, it isn't even close... my order of "modern" PF's looks like this: 1. KG 2. TD (I understand if you take him at 1) 3. Mailman 4. Barkley 5. McHale 6. Dirk. Rodman cracks my top 10.

This is what was mentioned



No way he's better than Barkley or the Mailman



I mentioned career wise he can be argued, but peak wise he could not be argued over them.