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dnewguy
03-11-2012, 12:48 PM
Offense sells even when it is ineffective. NBA fans value a jump shooter over an efficient player, it has become common place in the NBA for players like Carmelo be hyped for their offensive talent no matter how sad their fg percentage is compared to more efficient offensive players like Andrew Bynum. Recently I argued in the Knicks forum about a potential swap of Josh Smith for Carmelo, but many of their fans shut me down claiming that Melo is a lot better than Smith. I guess they are judging from the few tough shots Melo makes and overlook the majority tough shots he missed. Josh Smith has been more of a contributor to the overall team success, he has an higher PER but people just can't do without those one or two tough shots Melo makes even though 10 other questionable shots may have cost his team. However, this goes beyond Melo and Smith. Kobe have been called a better offensive player than Lebron but if you were to look at efficiency and team orientation, Bron is heads and shoulders above Kobe. My question to you guys is, why do people get sold on jump shooters? Just because someone takes 30 shots and makes 2 tough shots does not make that person a great talent, many of those shots cost their team a couple of victories, but people are quick to assume that their teammates are scrubs and they had to shoot. IMO players that help their team in every facet should be valued more than players that only knows how shoot the ball (even though they don't make many shots). Carmelo and Joe Johnson should not be max players, they are not better than players that contribute to team success such as Deng or Josh Smith. It is true that Melo could go off for 40 on any night but those nights are rarer than good weather in London after 6pm, in the end players who are consistent in their production are overlooked and players who fluctuate are hyped.

Don't get sold by players that force tough shots, even though they make some here and there in the end their offensive efficiency is abysmal and it always cost their team victories.

jp611
03-11-2012, 12:50 PM
Josh Smith isn't exactly efficient either

-Kobe24-TJ19-
03-11-2012, 12:56 PM
Josh Smith isn't exactly efficient either

this

and PER - player efficiency rating doesnt really show you how efficient a player is, the more shots you take and make the higher the PER.

WS/48 are much better IMO

dnewguy
03-11-2012, 12:58 PM
Josh Smith isn't exactly efficient either

Like I said, you're focusing on offense. Lets say player A shoots 25 times, makes 10 shots and scores 26 points, but lacks on defense. Player B shoots 12 times, makes 7 and has 18 points but also defended player A and made him miss 10 shots. Player B has contributed more to his team by helping limit player A while contributing some offense.

My argument, people overlook player B.

You are not judging Smith by his blocked shots, his steals, defensive dominance but you're crediting Melo for making a few shots even though that's a ll he does.

jp611
03-11-2012, 01:01 PM
Well I understand your point but if you're trying to strengthen your argument, using Josh Smith as an example is not a good way to do it

Trust me I'm critical of Carmelo and think he's extremely overrated but as good as Josh Smith is on the defense, he's extremely inefficient on offense and takes awful shots maybe more so than melo

dnewguy
03-11-2012, 01:03 PM
Well I understand your point but if you're trying to strengthen your argument, using Josh Smith as an example is not a good way to do it

I disagree......Smith v. Melo is the best way to make my argument. Smith is a better overall player than Melo but undervalued.

jp611
03-11-2012, 01:04 PM
Well I understand your point but if you're trying to strengthen your argument, using Josh Smith as an example is not a good way to do it

I disagree......Smith v. Melo is the best way to make my argument. Smith is a better overall player than Melo but undervalued.

I edited my last post

dnewguy
03-11-2012, 01:08 PM
Well I understand your point but if you're trying to strengthen your argument, using Josh Smith as an example is not a good way to do it

Trust me I'm critical of Carmelo and think he's extremely overrated but as good as Josh Smith is on the defense, he's extremely inefficient on offense and takes awful shots maybe more so than melo

Smith is a career .464 shooter, he does miss many long range shots but he does attempt more low post shots.....which can't be said of Melo. We have a tendency to rate players on long range shots they take/make even though it is highly ineffective. Rose drives most of the time to get off his shots but people don't value that type of offense as much as Kobe doing his in-your-face highly inefficient jump shots. He makes some here and there but he misses a lot more.

-Kobe24-TJ19-
03-11-2012, 01:12 PM
I just checked Smith's offensive numbers, he's terrible on offense.

0.4 Offensive WS but 3.2 defensive WS:speechless:

T-mac who has played 500 minutes has more win shares than Smith who has played over 1400 minutes.

Talk about inefficiency lol:laugh2:

jp611
03-11-2012, 01:15 PM
I just checked Smith's offensive numbers, he's terrible on offense.

0.4 Offensive WS but 3.2 defensive WS:speechless:

T-mac who has played 500 minutes has more win shares than Smith who has played over 1400 minutes.

Talk about inefficiency lol:laugh2:

And the worst part is that he thinks he's good on offense and takes an insane amount of terrible shots, he could be good on offense if he quit shooting and became more of a post player

dnewguy
03-11-2012, 01:15 PM
I just checked Smith's offensive numbers, he's terrible on offense.

0.4 Offensive WS but 3.2 defensive WS:speechless:

T-mac who has played 500 minutes has more win shares than Smith who has played over 1400 minutes.

Talk about inefficiency lol:laugh2:

ok, there are limitations to all those crappy statistics. Have you taken research classes (critical research)...learn about limitations to those crappy sport assessment and go by your eyes. A limitation is games and minutes played.....Smith is likely to be in the game when they need a come back while T mac is more likely in the game when it is already a blow-out....there goes your winshare argument. Think critically fellas.

dnewguy
03-11-2012, 01:17 PM
And the worst part is that he thinks he's good on offense and takes an insane amount of terrible shots, he could be good on offense if he quit shooting and became more of a post player

Wrong again....Smith's offense is mostly low post, he takes jump shot here and there but since sports fans focus on jump shots you are quick to recall his jumpshots and dismiss majority of his drives which leads to lay-ups or fouls.

jp611
03-11-2012, 01:17 PM
There's more to it than just win shares though, take a look at his eFG%, his TS%... You have a good argument, but you're killing it by using Josh ****ing Smith as your example

-Kobe24-TJ19-
03-11-2012, 01:18 PM
Wrong again....Smith's offense is mostly low post, he takes jump shot here and there but since sports fans focus on jump shots you are quick to recall his jumpshots and dismiss majority of his drives which leads to lay-ups or fouls.

Smith is dead last on OWS on his team among players who play important role.

theducksmuggler
03-11-2012, 01:19 PM
Your argument would of been a lot better using Andre Iguodala and not Josh Smith...

jp611
03-11-2012, 01:19 PM
His TS% is .486 and his eFG% is .463... That's ****ing awful

jp611
03-11-2012, 01:20 PM
Your argument would of been a lot better using Andre Iguodala and not Josh Smith...

This

dnewguy
03-11-2012, 01:21 PM
Smith is dead last on OWS on his team among players who play important role.

what? LOL.....Like I said, what BS stat did you get that from? Stats don't show many of the things Udonis Haslem does while they might show his shortcomings. The most valuable asset the Hawks have is Smith.

Lisound15
03-11-2012, 01:22 PM
Well In Anthony's defense, he shoots 45.6% for his career, which isnt a very inefficient number.

But anyways, I'll tell you a huge reason why those players get more attention. Any guy can defer the ball and take only the easy shots. But when crunch time comes at the end of the game, those easy shots are much harder to come by. Guys like Kobe and Melo who can score off the dribble are huge for late game situations, because when the defense tightens up you need guys like that who can create their own offense without needing to drive the lane.

jp611
03-11-2012, 01:22 PM
Smith is dead last on OWS on his team among players who play important role.

what? LOL.....Like I said, what BS stat did you get that from? Stats don't show many of the things Udonis Haslem does while they might show his shortcomings. The most valuable asset the Hawks have is Smith.

No, Al Horford and Joe Johnson are, smith is awesome on defense but just complete trash on offense

Chronz
03-11-2012, 01:22 PM
lol dnewguy is losing this debate, I get the point hes trying to make but josh smith isn't the guy on offense, hes been very inefficient.

dnewguy
03-11-2012, 01:23 PM
His TS% is .486 and his eFG% is .463... That's ****ing awful

Can statistics measure overall impact in a game? Like say....help defense, diverted shots, shot clock violation, defensive press, offensive sets, help offense (not assist, like blocking opp out). Statistics can be garbage.

Chronz
03-11-2012, 01:24 PM
And the worst part is that he thinks he's good on offense and takes an insane amount of terrible shots, he could be good on offense if he quit shooting and became more of a post player

Wrong again....Smith's offense is mostly low post, he takes jump shot here and there but since sports fans focus on jump shots you are quick to recall his jumpshots and dismiss majority of his drives which leads to lay-ups or fouls.
Can you prove this?

dnewguy
03-11-2012, 01:24 PM
lol dnewguy is losing this debate, I get the point hes trying to make but josh smith isn't the guy on offense, hes been very inefficient.

what? You get my point but I am losing....now that's funny.

jp611
03-11-2012, 01:25 PM
His TS% is .486 and his eFG% is .463... That's ****ing awful

Can statistics measure overall impact in a game? Like say....help defense, diverted shots, shot clock violation, defensive press, offensive sets, help offense (not assist, like blocking opp out). Statistics can be garbage.

I have already said hes awesome on defense, he's ****ing awful on the offensive end, he's worse offensively than melo is defensively... Stats don't lie, Josh Smith is a terrible example for your argument

dnewguy
03-11-2012, 01:25 PM
Can you prove this?

Yes I can.....I live in Atlanta, I watch them on local TV and I see him play more than many of you do. Many of you probably see him play 2-4 times a season, I see him more than 60 times a season.

Chronz
03-11-2012, 01:25 PM
Well In Anthony's defense, he shoots 45.6% for his career, which isnt a very inefficient number.

But anyways, I'll tell you a huge reason why those players get more attention. Any guy can defer the ball and take only the easy shots. But when crunch time comes at the end of the game, those easy shots are much harder to come by. Guys like Kobe and Melo who can score off the dribble are huge for late game situations, because when the defense tightens up you need guys like that who can create their own offense without needing to drive the lane.
Thats not a very good defense considering how poor FG% is at measuring efficiency

dnewguy
03-11-2012, 01:27 PM
I have already said hes awesome on defense, he's ****ing awful on the offensive end, he's worse offensively than melo is defensively... Stats don't lie, Josh Smith is a terrible example for your argument

For every 6 points Melo makes, Smith takes 12 away. That's the point I am trying to make here.

jp611
03-11-2012, 01:28 PM
Can you prove this?

Yes I can.....I live in Atlanta, I watch them on local TV and I see him play more than many of you do. Many of you probably see him play 2-4 times a season, I see him more than 60 times a season.

The I watch games more than you argument :sigh:

Like I said, statistics do not lie, and by the eye test, when I do watch Josh Smith play, he shows me nothing different than what the stats show me... That he is an inefficient offensive player who plays outside of himself

Chronz
03-11-2012, 01:28 PM
Can you prove this?

Yes I can.....I live in Atlanta, I watch them on local TV and I see him play more than many of you do. Many of you probably see him play 2-4 times a season, I see him more than 60 times a season.
So what are you waiting for?

P.S. If you dont like weighted stats then don't use PER.

Chronz
03-11-2012, 01:29 PM
lol dnewguy is losing this debate, I get the point hes trying to make but josh smith isn't the guy on offense, hes been very inefficient.

what? You get my point but I am losing....now that's funny.
Yeah read the rest of my post. We ALL get what your TRYING to get across, your just doing it wrong

dnewguy
03-11-2012, 01:30 PM
No, Al Horford and Joe Johnson are, smith is awesome on defense but just complete trash on offense

Wrong.....you don't know much about offense outside of jump shots. Smith is a bad jumpshooter, i'll give you that but majority of his offense is not generated through jump shots. He only takes jump shots when they leave him open. Most of the time, he drives. Watch the Hawks more pls.

NSJ
03-11-2012, 01:31 PM
So are you saying that Josh Smith is a better player than Melo? Or are you trying to say that players like Josh Smith are underrated? It's hard to tell. Also, why are you making this broad assumption that everyone values jump shooters and that people value them so much because they hit a couple of "tough shots"?

dnewguy
03-11-2012, 01:31 PM
So what are you waiting for?

P.S. If you dont like weighted stats then don't use PER.

I used PER because it explains what you see....not some BS stats that can't be explained.

Chronz
03-11-2012, 01:32 PM
His TS% is .486 and his eFG% is .463... That's ****ing awful

Can statistics measure overall impact in a game? Like say....help defense, diverted shots, shot clock violation, defensive press, offensive sets, help offense (not assist, like blocking opp out). Statistics can be garbage.

I have already said hes awesome on defense, he's ****ing awful on the offensive end, he's worse offensively than melo is defensively... Stats don't lie, Josh Smith is a terrible example for your argument
Melo has been pretty bad on offense tho, Josh Smith has played better but I would agree Melo (at his best) is better

dnewguy
03-11-2012, 01:32 PM
So are you saying that Josh Smith is a better player than Melo? Or are you trying to say that players like Josh Smith are underrated? It's hard to tell. Also, why are you making this broad assumption that everyone values jump shooters and that people value them so much because they hit a couple of "tough shots"?

I am saying that overall, Smith is a better basket ball player.

jp611
03-11-2012, 01:33 PM
No, Al Horford and Joe Johnson are, smith is awesome on defense but just complete trash on offense

Wrong.....you don't know much about offense outside of jump shots. Smith is a bad jumpshooter, i'll give you that but majority of his offense is not generated through jump shots. He only takes jump shots when they leave him open. Most of the time, he drives. Watch the Hawks more pls.

If he's so great on offense than why are his eFG% and TS% amongst the worst in the league for his position?

dnewguy
03-11-2012, 01:36 PM
If he's so great on offense than why are his eFG% and TS% amongst the worst in the league for his position?

efg and ts% are fantasy stats.

jp611
03-11-2012, 01:37 PM
If he's so great on offense than why are his eFG% and TS% amongst the worst in the league for his position?

efg and ts% are fantasy stats.

No they really aren't, and like I said when I do watch smith he drives me insane because he has so much talent to be a great offensive player but he pisses it away by taking ill advised jump shots when hes just ****ing terrible at them

NSJ
03-11-2012, 01:40 PM
Wrong.....you don't know much about offense outside of jump shots. Smith is a bad jumpshooter, i'll give you that but majority of his offense is not generated through jump shots. He only takes jump shots when they leave him open. Most of the time, he drives. Watch the Hawks more pls.

He's actually taken about 100 more jump shots than layups, dunks, hook shots, and tip ins combined.

dnewguy
03-11-2012, 01:40 PM
No they really aren't, and like I said when I do watch smith he drives me insane because he has so much talent to be a great offensive player but he pisses it away by taking ill advised jump shots when hes just ****ing terrible at them

I understand. Smith was dominant when the Hawks beat Heat, Bulls and Thunder. He's a beast but his teammates suck.

dnewguy
03-11-2012, 01:41 PM
He's actually taken about 100 more jump shots than layups, dunks, hook shots, and tip ins combined.

You are entitled to your own opinion, but you're not entitled to making up facts.

jp611
03-11-2012, 01:45 PM
He's actually taken about 100 more jump shots than layups, dunks, hook shots, and tip ins combined.

You are entitled to your own opinion, but you're not entitled to making up facts.

Prove him wrong than, if you know you're right bring out the stats

NSJ
03-11-2012, 01:46 PM
Look it up if you don't believe me. http://www.basketball-reference.com/play-index/plus/shot_finder.cgi?player_id=smithjo03

dnewguy
03-11-2012, 01:46 PM
Prove him wrong than, if you know you're right bring out the stats

why would I need stats when I watch them everytime they play.

Ty Fast
03-11-2012, 01:48 PM
Offense sells even when it is ineffective. NBA fans value a jump shooter over an efficient player, it has become common place in the NBA for players like Carmelo be hyped for their offensive talent no matter how sad their fg percentage is compared to more efficient offensive players like Andrew Bynum. Recently I argued in the Knicks forum about a potential swap of Josh Smith for Carmelo, but many of their fans shut me down claiming that Melo is a lot better than Smith. I guess they are judging from the few tough shots Melo makes and overlook the majority tough shots he missed. Josh Smith has been more of a contributor to the overall team success, he has an higher PER but people just can't do without those one or two tough shots Melo makes even though 10 other questionable shots may have cost his team. However, this goes beyond Melo and Smith. Kobe have been called a better offensive player than Lebron but if you were to look at efficiency and team orientation, Bron is heads and shoulders above Kobe. My question to you guys is, why do people get sold on jump shooters? Just because someone takes 30 shots and makes 2 tough shots does not make that person a great talent, many of those shots cost their team a couple of victories, but people are quick to assume that their teammates are scrubs and they had to shoot. IMO players that help their team in every facet should be valued more than players that only knows how shoot the ball (even though they don't make many shots). Carmelo and Joe Johnson should not be max players, they are not better than players that contribute to team success such as Deng or Josh Smith. It is true that Melo could go off for 40 on any night but those nights are rarer than good weather in London after 6pm, in the end players who are consistent in their production are overlooked and players who fluctuate are hyped.

Don't get sold by players that force tough shots, even though they make some here and there in the end their offensive efficiency is abysmal and it always cost their team victories.

this post is waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaay 2 long

jp611
03-11-2012, 01:51 PM
Prove him wrong than, if you know you're right bring out the stats

why would I need stats when I watch them everytime they play.

The stats are real, you're wrong again dnewguy, doesn't surprise me that you turn to delusional statements when you're wrong... You're kinda like the Josh Smith of posters, you have potential to be a good poster but you start acting crazy when proven wrong

NSJ
03-11-2012, 01:51 PM
why would I need stats when I watch them everytime they play.

Because the stats say he's take more jump shots than any other shot combined.

Chronz
03-11-2012, 02:31 PM
So what are you waiting for?

P.S. If you dont like weighted stats then don't use PER.

I used PER because it explains what you see....not some BS stats that can't be explained.
WS does the same thing, you just don't like it because it doesn't push your agenda. Both stats are equally important or flawed

jp611
03-11-2012, 02:34 PM
And it's not like it's just one stat that shows his inefficient, it's multiple stats and it passes the eye test too, I don't watch him play EVERY game but I do see a handful of Hawks games a year and I always express my sympathy to Hawks fans for having to put up with that night in and night out

Chronz
03-11-2012, 02:35 PM
Prove him wrong than, if you know you're right bring out the stats

why would I need stats when I watch them everytime they play.
Because your eyes can be deceiving and people aren't really going to take you at your word, you have to actually prove your statements.

jp611
03-11-2012, 02:38 PM
Josh Smith has taken 600 shots this season, of which 342 of them have been jump shots

Lakers + Giants
03-11-2012, 02:57 PM
dnewguy, you're the same one who said last year that Joel Anthony was more important than Lamar Odom LMFAO. I would love to see you prove that. . . otherwise what you're saying is pure bull. . Why haven't you deleted you're account btw? :D

Fnom11
03-11-2012, 03:43 PM
Smith+a solid backup for Melo, sure. Not a straight up trade though.

IndyRealist
03-11-2012, 04:13 PM
Even if the OP didn't state it well, the point still stands. People prefer inefficient "clutch" players over overall efficient players.

Josh Smith is just a bad example. So is Andrew Bynum. Why? Because, as Doc Rivers said, "Basketball is a game of spacing." It necessitates taking jumpers, so you necessarily need players who take jumpers even if it's less efficient than dunking. It's apples to oranges if you compare jump shooters with post players.

mamba24
03-11-2012, 04:34 PM
Offense sells even when it is ineffective. NBA fans value a jump shooter over an efficient player, it has become common place in the NBA for players like Carmelo be hyped for their offensive talent no matter how sad their fg percentage is compared to more efficient offensive players like Andrew Bynum. Recently I argued in the Knicks forum about a potential swap of Josh Smith for Carmelo, but many of their fans shut me down claiming that Melo is a lot better than Smith. I guess they are judging from the few tough shots Melo makes and overlook the majority tough shots he missed. Josh Smith has been more of a contributor to the overall team success, he has an higher PER but people just can't do without those one or two tough shots Melo makes even though 10 other questionable shots may have cost his team. However, this goes beyond Melo and Smith. Kobe have been called a better offensive player than Lebron but if you were to look at efficiency and team orientation, Bron is heads and shoulders above Kobe. My question to you guys is, why do people get sold on jump shooters? Just because someone takes 30 shots and makes 2 tough shots does not make that person a great talent, many of those shots cost their team a couple of victories, but people are quick to assume that their teammates are scrubs and they had to shoot. IMO players that help their team in every facet should be valued more than players that only knows how shoot the ball (even though they don't make many shots). Carmelo and Joe Johnson should not be max players, they are not better than players that contribute to team success such as Deng or Josh Smith. It is true that Melo could go off for 40 on any night but those nights are rarer than good weather in London after 6pm, in the end players who are consistent in their production are overlooked and players who fluctuate are hyped.

Don't get sold by players that force tough shots, even though they make some here and there in the end their offensive efficiency is abysmal and it always cost their team victories.

this thread = pointless

Bravo95
03-11-2012, 05:06 PM
Hawks fans (and forum) been having this debate for a while.

Evolution23
03-11-2012, 05:09 PM
dnewguy fails again. what are you 0-55 now?

effen5
03-11-2012, 05:16 PM
Cliffs of thread?

dnewguy
03-11-2012, 05:54 PM
Reveals the Education level in this country.....I bet most of you get tired off reading one line. Learn to read people, it doesn't kill.

Furymaker
03-11-2012, 06:00 PM
Josh Smith would be better fit in Knicks jersey than Carmelo , they need some defense and consistent 15+ ppg , and that's what J-Smoove would give them , and Carmelo would be great fit at Atlanta . If I'm Knicks I'd do it

jp611
03-11-2012, 06:05 PM
Reveals the Education level in this country.....I bet most of you get tired off reading one line. Learn to read people, it doesn't kill.

The only one showing lack of education is you, you've said nothing but wrong things about Josh Smith, I showed you that over 50 percent of his shots were jump shots, you were wrong, admit defeat once in your life, you never admit defeat for your team it's always the refs fault, and then when proven wrong in a debate you resort to saying you watch the games and I don't... You were completely wrong in your comparison, Josh Smith is NOT an efficient offensive player, he is in fact one of the most inefficient players in the game on offense

The Final Boss
03-11-2012, 06:32 PM
During the making of this thread, LoLebron James passed up another potential game winning shot. This one, though, was a free throw. Sorry, King, you must eat your vegetables and take your own free throws.

dnewguy
03-11-2012, 07:36 PM
The only one showing lack of education is you, you've said nothing but wrong things about Josh Smith, I showed you that over 50 percent of his shots were jump shots, you were wrong, admit defeat once in your life, you never admit defeat for your team it's always the refs fault, and then when proven wrong in a debate you resort to saying you watch the games and I don't... You were completely wrong in your comparison, Josh Smith is NOT an efficient offensive player, he is in fact one of the most inefficient players in the game on offense

Like I said, you're not a critical thinker. Looking at stats to decide what someone does the most makes no sense (outside of rebounds, assists and points)......does that stat reflect how many times Smith drive and was fouled? NOPE, those don't show up as shots taken, there-fore you cannot prove that majority of his shots are jump-shots. It's like looking at stats and saying Dwight only had 9 touches tonight because he shot the ball 9 times.....well Dwight may have taken 25 free-trows but the other 12 or 13 shots were't counted.

jp611
03-11-2012, 07:45 PM
The only one showing lack of education is you, you've said nothing but wrong things about Josh Smith, I showed you that over 50 percent of his shots were jump shots, you were wrong, admit defeat once in your life, you never admit defeat for your team it's always the refs fault, and then when proven wrong in a debate you resort to saying you watch the games and I don't... You were completely wrong in your comparison, Josh Smith is NOT an efficient offensive player, he is in fact one of the most inefficient players in the game on offense

Like I said, you're not a critical thinker. Looking at stats to decide what someone does the most makes no sense (outside of rebounds, assists and points)......does that stat reflect how many times Smith drive and was fouled? NOPE, those don't show up as shots taken, there-fore you cannot prove that majority of his shots are jump-shots. It's like looking at stats and saying Dwight only had 9 touches tonight because he shot the ball 9 times.....well Dwight may have taken 25 free-trows but the other 12 or 13 shots were't counted.

Well he's been to the free throw line 197 times so I'll say about 75 drives to the hoop when he was fouled... He still shoots the ball way too ****ing much and you're still wrong, because his inefficiency is real, you're picking at every little thing to try and prove your point when you're just wrong... Next time you plan on making a thread about all around better players use someone who isn't one of the most inefficient players in the league, try again next time

Sox72
03-11-2012, 07:53 PM
I've never seen a poster proven wrong on so many different occasions.

basketfan4life
03-12-2012, 12:48 PM
I am saying that overall, Smith is a better basket ball player.

no way in hell.

willabeast77
03-12-2012, 01:58 PM
I agree with this. Laker/Kobe fans seem to think Kobe is a better offensive player (and scorer) than LeBron simply because Kobe makes a few more tough shots. But that is nonsense. Kobe taking all those tough shots and forced shots is the reason his field goal % is so low and it has cost the Lakers games. He takes bad shots but once he makes a tough looking shot, he gets praised.

Corey
03-14-2012, 01:04 AM
I used PER because it explains what you see....not some BS stats that can't be explained.


efg and ts% are fantasy stats.
.....Not sure if serious or just dont get it..

You chose PER over TS% + eFG%?

Huh?