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justinnum1
03-08-2012, 05:59 PM
Other thread had over 1000

Vote.

ManRam
03-08-2012, 06:34 PM
New thread, same answer.

LeBron James. No one is on his level.

Kobe has fallen out of my top 5.

It's weird not seeing Howard on that list, though.

CHANGO
03-08-2012, 06:52 PM
Howard needs to be in that list.

Anyways is the same respone.

Lebron
Durant
CP3
Rose
Howard

Avenged
03-08-2012, 06:58 PM
Lebron
Durant
Rose
Dwight

Nice to see Parker up there. He's been really good this season.

justinnum1
03-08-2012, 07:08 PM
New thread, same answer.

LeBron James. No one is on his level.

Kobe has fallen out of my top 5.

It's weird not seeing Howard on that list, though.

Yea, my bad...

ManRam
03-08-2012, 07:09 PM
Yea, my bad...

I don't know if he's even in my top 5 honestly. Not saying I disagree (not sure if it was intentional or not), but he just hasn't been playing like and MVP this year, and it's weird to not have him in the debate...whether he's on the poll or not.

I will add him, to see if Raph votes for him or not ;)

Avenged
03-08-2012, 07:15 PM
I don't know if he's even in my top 5 honestly. Not saying I disagree (not sure if it was intentional or not), but he just hasn't been playing like and MVP this year, and it's weird to not have him in the debate...whether he's on the poll or not.

I will add him, to see if Raph votes for him or not ;)

The guy is averaging 20 points per game and a career high of 15 rebounds. He leads the league in rebounds, has the 2nd highest FG% in the league, top 5 in blocks, #8 in PER (actually #7 since Manu has only played 11 games), top notch defender, and has the Magic 3rd in the East!

He's putting up a very good season, an MVP like season. It's incredible he's capable of more but already is having such a huge season.

ManRam
03-08-2012, 07:23 PM
The guy is averaging 20 points per game and a career high of 15 rebounds. He leads the league in rebounds, has the 2nd highest FG% in the league, top 5 in blocks, #8 in PER (actually #7 since Manu has only played 11 games), top notch defender, and has the Magic 3rd in the East!

He's putting up a very good season, an MVP like season. It's incredible he's capable of more but already is having such a huge season.

He's an awful leader. He does nothing intentional to make those around him better. He's a distraction of epic proportions. He also is a complete offensive detriment in the 4th quarter...a legit hindrance. We're not talk about LeBron here...we're talking about a guy who actually becomes a liability with the ball in his hands.

SVG is more of a coach of the year than Dwight Howard is an MVP.

Statistically he's having another good year...for sure. However, he's regressed offensively compared to last season and his defensive impact is not what it was the past few seasons either. Those are undeniable.

If he wasn't such a, dare I say "cancer", then I'd put him in my top 3-4. I can't though...not with how he throws his players, team, coaches, and everyone under the bus regularly. He's holding this team hostage, and it's affecting people's play. He doesn't even talk to anyone in the clubhouse really anymore besides Nelson. I have no idea how this team has done as well as it has this year, and I don't credit for that...

Furymaker
03-08-2012, 07:24 PM
I'll go with Durant followed by Lebron , Rose , Dwight , CP3 , Parker , Kobe and Love

theheatles
03-08-2012, 08:36 PM
The Chosen One

ManRam
03-08-2012, 08:59 PM
If the season ended today:

LeBron's 33.1 PER shatters the single-season record (31.84, Wilt)
LeBron's .3410 WS/48 breaks the single-season record (.3399, Kareem)

I know hating advanced stats is trendy if they don't say what you want to hear, but no matter how you slice it, those numbers are awe-inspiring. There's no way to knock that...it's impossible. There are plenty of fans on this site who reference these stats (a certain poster and to hype a certain Michael Jordan, for example) but will shun them now because of hatred...even when they're better than ever before.

He's having the most efficient season ever, as far as I'm concerned.

#1 in PER, #5 in TS%, #3 in eFG%, #3 in usage, #1 in OWS, #5 in DWS, #1 in Win shares (a full 2.6 wins above Durant) and #1 in WS/48 (duh, since he might break the record... compare his .341 to #2 CP3's .258...wow).


He's attempted 699 FGs, and has made 388 of them. Compare that to Kobe (235 more shots, 18 more makes), Durant (85 more attempts, 1 less make), Westbrook (58 more shots, 40 fewer makes) etc...and he's clearly the best scorer in the NBA. Add that amazing efficiency with the #2 FT rate in the NBA and you have something the league has never seen before, ever.


I mean, the only knock is that he plays with Wade, or that he's passed the ball to an open guy a few times late in games. Well, Durant plays with Westbrook. Rose plays with the league's best defense and the league's best bench. Kobe might have the best frontcourt in the league and has taken more awful clutch shots than the league combined. You can make all the arguments, but nothing can overcome the complete dominance that he is doing.

He's the best offensive player in the game right now, and he's better defensively than any of the other candidates (Howard withstanding).

27.9 points, 6.7 assists, 8.4 rebounds, 55.5% shooting, 39% from three, 1.8 steals and 0.8 blocks...on a top 3 team...would be guaranteed of this award any given season. Emotions/bias are all that can get in the way.

That is all. I'd like to here the reasoning behind Derrick Rose winning this...

JordansBulls
03-08-2012, 09:00 PM
Heat are the only team with 3 allstars. They also are the team that was hands down favorite to win it all. Next off they were a #2 seed last season, so getting it again this season when heavy favorites is not going to get you MVP. Next off the only guys who got MVP a 3rd time before a title were Moses and Wilt and both of them had the best numbers in the league, but also had won 7+ more games than the next team in the league so it is like they had to get MVP. That is not the case with Miami. This was a team predicted to go 58-8 this season and they are not. Anything less than a #1 seed when you have 3 guys who made the allstar team is not bringing home a MVP trophy.
Prove to me where a guy who won league mvp while having 3 guys on the team who made the allstar team and the team did not finish 1st record wise in the conference? You would be hard pressed to find one.

RaJAxTWa
03-08-2012, 09:13 PM
as much as i hate him....lebron

JordansBulls
03-08-2012, 09:19 PM
If the season ended today:

LeBron's 33.1 PER shatters the single-season record (31.84, Wilt)
LeBron's .3410 WS/48 breaks the single-season record (.3399, Kareem)

I know hating advanced stats is trendy if they don't say what you want to hear, but no matter how you slice it, those numbers are awe-inspiring. There's no way to knock that...it's impossible. There are plenty of fans on this site who reference these stats (a certain poster and to hype a certain Michael Jordan, for example) but will shun them now because of hatred...even when they're better than ever before.

He's having the most efficient season ever, as far as I'm concerned.

#1 in PER, #5 in TS%, #3 in eFG%, #3 in usage, #1 in OWS, #5 in DWS, #1 in Win shares (a full 2.6 wins above Durant) and #1 in WS/48 (duh, since he might break the record... compare his .341 to #2 CP3's .258...wow).


He's attempted 699 FGs, and has made 388 of them. Compare that to Kobe (235 more shots, 18 more makes), Durant (85 more attempts, 1 less make), Westbrook (58 more shots, 40 fewer makes) etc...and he's clearly the best scorer in the NBA. Add that amazing efficiency with the #2 FT rate in the NBA and you have something the league has never seen before, ever.


I mean, the only knock is that he plays with Wade, or that he's passed the ball to an open guy a few times late in games. Well, Durant plays with Westbrook. Rose plays with the league's best defense and the league's best bench. Kobe might have the best frontcourt in the league and has taken more awful clutch shots than the league combined. You can make all the arguments, but nothing can overcome the complete dominance that he is doing.

He's the best offensive player in the game right now, and he's better defensively than any of the other candidates (Howard withstanding).

27.9 points, 6.7 assists, 8.4 rebounds, 55.5% shooting, 39% from three, 1.8 steals and 0.8 blocks...on a top 3 team...would be guaranteed of this award any given season. Emotions/bias are all that can get in the way.

That is all. I'd like to here the reasoning behind Derrick Rose winning this...

Not really when you consider the amount of productive players in the league now vs then and also the stars who have been missing games which in turn will boast your numbers vs the rest. Those numbers in any other era would be around 29-30 PER, but because of the amount of stars out and injured it is much higher than normal. For instance when you have productive guys in the league like MJ, Magic, Bird, Hakeem, Robinson, Malone, Barkley, etc who are all in there prime as well, going to be much tougher to have a greater gap on PER than them or much higher because of how well they produce. Nowadays your most productive guys are Lebron, Wade, CP3, Dwight, Dirk, but this year 3 of them have suffered from injuries, so obviously it will be much easier for Lebron's PER to be boosted up much more because no one else is either playing well or not playing at all.
And the fact that Wade is 2nd in the league in PER as well and the Heat still don't have the best record is what ruins it. Why do you think Magic and Kareem never won any MVP until 1987 once Kareem was clearly on the decline and not a top 10 player in the league anymore? Or why do you think Duncan didn't get it in 1999 because of playing with Robinson who was still in his prime or better yet why do you think Shaq didn't get it after 2000 because of how good Kobe was and being a top 5 player as well in the league despite having a top 3 record as well.
Only cases you had where a guy got the MVP was Moses in 1983 and Wilt in 1967 but they also were 7+ games ahead of the next team.

tredigs
03-08-2012, 11:43 PM
^#1, you act like Lebron missing time while other stars are taking extended leaves for minor injuries or no injury ala Dirk, Pierce or D. Rose is a knock on Lebron. The dude's legendarily resilient and won't sit out games to exercise or rest his legs; just won't happen.

#2, how do you explain the monster gap in PER + Win Shares between Lebron and the other top stars like Durant (who's consistently now among the league leaders in PER and having his best season to date)?

#3, you're dreaming if you think you can find a year in the last 4 decades where his stats aren't at the very minimum a top 3 PER all time. But we have time for you to prove that statement -- >

stawka
03-08-2012, 11:58 PM
JB is one of the biggest LeBron haters I've seen on this forum -- add to the fact that he's on Rose's round ones ALL the time, it's a recipe for another failed MVP thread

KB-Pau-DH2012
03-09-2012, 01:12 AM
The Chosen One

You mean the self-proclaimed King? ;)


Anyways, you can't go wrong with either LeBron or Durantula.

Raph12
03-09-2012, 01:13 AM
He's an awful leader. He does nothing intentional to make those around him better. He's a distraction of epic proportions. He also is a complete offensive detriment in the 4th quarter...a legit hindrance. We're not talk about LeBron here...we're talking about a guy who actually becomes a liability with the ball in his hands.

SVG is more of a coach of the year than Dwight Howard is an MVP.

I agree he's not a great leader, but that has a lot to do with not being able to control when he gets the ball and when he doesn't. His trade demand is obviously a distraction, but it's not his fault, he asked for a trade and Otis went public with it at which point he admitted to it. Management decided not to trade him, so I don't think you can blame him for being the distraction... As for 4th quarter play, I don't have the stats handy, but I've seen a handful of games where Dwight has carried us (atleast 8+pts) in the 4th. His FT shooting affects how much we go to him in the 4th, but when he gets his oppurtunities, he still plays well.


Statistically he's having another good year...for sure. However, he's regressed offensively compared to last season and his defensive impact is not what it was the past few seasons either. Those are undeniable.

It's not so much regressing offensively, as it is shooting FTs worse than he was last season. He gets hacked a lot when he's in good position to score and when he misses FTs, the team shys away from him. He is also passing the ball more this season, despite getting less touches which is affecting his numbers. If he starts shooting his FTs better, his game will open up dramatically, I think it's only a matter of time.

As for the defensive end, it just goes to show how little your eyes pick up vs actual numbers. The Magic are right where they've been for the past four seasons (~101.5 Drtg), you probably just noticed where they ranked and automatically assumed it's because Dwight is doing less. Actually Dwight is playing better defense this season than he has since 2008-09; locking his man down, playing the passing lanes better and helping when necessary. The difference has been in his teammates, Anderson requires a double on just about each and every, or every other at worst, PF he guards and that gets the Magic defense out of whack. The Magic last season had a 102.6Drtg with Dwight on the court and a 105.6Drtg with him on the bench; this season, they have a 101.1Drtg with him on the court and a 107.5Drtg with him on the bench... He's easily had a bigger impact on his team and against other teams defensively this season than last year. In fact, he second in the league (yes behind Lebron) in "Simple Rating" this season.


If he wasn't such a, dare I say "cancer", then I'd put him in my top 3-4. I can't though...not with how he throws his players, team, coaches, and everyone under the bus regularly. He's holding this team hostage, and it's affecting people's play. He doesn't even talk to anyone in the clubhouse really anymore besides Nelson. I have no idea how this team has done as well as it has this year, and I don't credit for that...

Stan gets the praise for keeping the team together at this point, but like I said, he asked to be traded, which I think is better than letting the Magic believe he'll stay and then leaving via FA. It is because of management that he's still in Orlando, so if his teammates feel distracted or butthurt, take it up with the front office.

...

As for MVP rankings, I got Dwight in the top 5; Lebron is easily #1, with Durant following; then you have Dwight, Rose and CP3 (not in any specific order)... I do believe Stan deserves more COY credit than Dwight does MVP, but to say he's not top 5 is laughable.

tredigs
03-09-2012, 01:16 AM
So the Bulls Mod and 4 other Bulls fans homer voted Rose, Raph homer voted Dwight (how, as a Magic fan when he's throwing your team under the bus is beyond me. Numbers aside there's absolutely NO chance media votes the dude MVP after what he's doing to Orlando), and a few random votes for KD/Love.

Everyone else here still seems to agree it's Lebron. 2:1 him versus everyone else combined. ESPN and NBA.com's MVP rankings still have him #1 as well.

Rightly so.

edit: Although Raph voted Dwight he just insisted above that Lebron is the clear MVP. So there's that.

Avenged
03-09-2012, 01:21 AM
So the Bulls Mod and 4 other Bulls fans homer voted Rose, Raph homer voted Dwight (how, as a Magic fan when he's throwing your team under the bus is beyond me. Numbers aside there's absolutely NO chance media votes the dude MVP after what he's doing to Orlando), and a few random votes for KD/Love.

Everyone else here still seems to agree it's Lebron. 2:1 him versus everyone else combined. ESPN and NBA.com's MVP rankings still have him #1 as well.

Rightly so.

edit: Although Raph voted Dwight he just insisted above that Lebron is the clear MVP. So there's that.

Should Dwight's off the court drama affect him when it comes to ranks in the MVP race? He's still producing at a high level, has MVP numbers, and has his team top 3 in the East. Why should all that drama matter when he is proving he is valuable on the court? Is it because it's affecting the Magic's players game? I find that hard to believe since they're 26-15. I can't possibly imagine them having 30 wins like the Bulls and Heat with the roster they have.

tredigs
03-09-2012, 01:35 AM
Should Dwight's off the court drama affect him when it comes to ranks in the MVP race? He's still producing at a high level, has MVP numbers, and has his team top 3 in the East. Why should all that drama matter when he is proving he is valuable on the court? Is it because it's affecting the Magic's players game? I find that hard to believe since they're 26-15. I can't possibly imagine them having 30 wins like the Bulls and Heat with the roster they have.

Of course they should man. He publicly called out teammates, said he wants to be traded, rescinded the demand, then said he's not sure, etc. etc. I'm not even sure where that is at it this point; I try to follow free agency talks as little as possible.

I do know that I've watched him play many games this season and his disinterested play is VERY noticeable - even tonight (not that it matters, but just got the text during their game tonight from a basketball head coworker of mine, "D. Howard looks lazy". Couldn't have said it any more succinct, and it's the case almost every night I've seen him this year). His numbers are awesome, no doubt about it (again, even tonight). But he still has huge holes in his game (playmaking, shooting, major turnover tendencies, zero clutch ability, leadership, etc.) that just aren't the case for somebody I take to be a MVP player.

And the 3 seed is somewhat of an illusion. They've had the 4th easiest schedule of the season thus far (BULLS #1 easiest) http://espn.go.com/nba/hollinger/powerrankings/_/page/2/sort/sos and they are just above four other squads. All of which truly pose no thread in the off-season of actually heading to the finals or retaining a top 2 seed; I think people realize that. And only players from top 2 seeds get MVP's, that's probably the case in 90-95% of the years.

CHANGO
03-09-2012, 01:42 AM
Rose MVP!! 6-22FG, 17pts!!

JB :p

Htownballa1622
03-09-2012, 01:46 AM
Heat are the only team with 3 allstars. They also are the team that was hands down favorite to win it all. Next off they were a #2 seed last season, so getting it again this season when heavy favorites is not going to get you MVP. Next off the only guys who got MVP a 3rd time before a title were Moses and Wilt and both of them had the best numbers in the league, but also had won 7+ more games than the next team in the league so it is like they had to get MVP. That is not the case with Miami. This was a team predicted to go 58-8 this season and they are not. Anything less than a #1 seed when you have 3 guys who made the allstar team is not bringing home a MVP trophy.
Prove to me where a guy who won league mvp while having 3 guys on the team who made the allstar team and the team did not finish 1st record wise in the conference? You would be hard pressed to find one.

IF lebron wins mvp you should change your sig to a lebron one and then apologize for all the things you spew against lebron ;)

Raph12
03-09-2012, 01:49 AM
So the Bulls Mod and 4 other Bulls fans homer voted Rose, Raph homer voted Dwight (how, as a Magic fan when he's throwing your team under the bus is beyond me. Numbers aside there's absolutely NO chance media votes the dude MVP after what he's doing to Orlando), and a few random votes for KD/Love.

I voted Dwight because I could, he's my favorite player and brought me back to Magic basketball.


Everyone else here still seems to agree it's Lebron. 2:1 him versus everyone else combined. ESPN and NBA.com's MVP rankings still have him #1 as well.

Rightly so.

edit: Although Raph voted Dwight he just insisted above that Lebron is the clear MVP. So there's that.

Lebron is the clear-cut MVP, there is no denying it... Like I said, I voted Dwight because I could.

chitownbears89
03-09-2012, 02:03 AM
So the Bulls Mod and 4 other Bulls fans homer voted Rose, Raph homer voted Dwight (how, as a Magic fan when he's throwing your team under the bus is beyond me. Numbers aside there's absolutely NO chance media votes the dude MVP after what he's doing to Orlando), and a few random votes for KD/Love.

Everyone else here still seems to agree it's Lebron. 2:1 him versus everyone else combined. ESPN and NBA.com's MVP rankings still have him #1 as well.

Rightly so.

edit: Although Raph voted Dwight he just insisted above that Lebron is the clear MVP. So there's that.

Ok, why do people care so much about others opinions, Lebron is having a great season no doubt. But there is no need to call out people on how they vote.

tredigs
03-09-2012, 02:07 AM
Ok, why do people care so much about others opinions.

Hah welll because unfortunately, I don't get sole autonomy of the NBA MVP vote.

There were plenty of people in the past thread of late that said 'if there were a vote now, X player would be MVP and not Lebron'.

I was just proving that that is not the case.

naps
03-09-2012, 02:19 AM
Seriously, JB's posts make me laugh. Even in the Bulls forum the bulls fans can't stand some of his strange logic.

Hawkize31
03-09-2012, 02:58 AM
Heat are the only team with 3 allstars. They also are the team that was hands down favorite to win it all. Next off they were a #2 seed last season, so getting it again this season when heavy favorites is not going to get you MVP. Next off the only guys who got MVP a 3rd time before a title were Moses and Wilt and both of them had the best numbers in the league, but also had won 7+ more games than the next team in the league so it is like they had to get MVP. That is not the case with Miami. This was a team predicted to go 58-8 this season and they are not. Anything less than a #1 seed when you have 3 guys who made the allstar team is not bringing home a MVP trophy.
Prove to me where a guy who won league mvp while having 3 guys on the team who made the allstar team and the team did not finish 1st record wise in the conference? You would be hard pressed to find one.

You no longer have any credibility in the MVP thread, so I won't waste the 3 minutes it would take to demolish this whole post. But just for reference, it would be really easy.

I voted Lebron since its obvious to anyone who understands the NBA and who isn't a homer/hater that Lebron James is the NBA MVP thus far.

stawka
03-09-2012, 03:22 AM
How the **** does Rose have more votes than Durant? Oh wait...

Baller1
03-09-2012, 03:38 AM
**** you Lebron... :sigh:

Raph12
03-09-2012, 04:56 AM
**** you Lebron... :sigh:

I felt the same way about Rose last season, difference is, Lebron definitely deserves it.

naps
03-09-2012, 06:29 AM
i felt the same way about rose last season, difference is, lebron definitely deserves it.

+1

northsider
03-09-2012, 01:08 PM
I felt the same way about Rose last season, difference is, Lebron definitely deserves it.

Which you make known daily with your infinity to down talk him. Obsesses much.

lavilevi23
03-09-2012, 01:27 PM
LeBron is the MVP if he keeps this up. It's not even close. Dude is shooting 56% FG


:speechless::speechless::speechless:

CHANGO
03-09-2012, 01:49 PM
Another reason to give Lebron the MVP.

Q: Ira, I am not surprised LeBron James is leading the MVP race, but what I haven't heard anyone mention is LeBron for Defensive Player of the Year. The man is guarding all five positions. Last time I checked, Dwight Howard wasn't guarding Derrick Rose. -- Steve, Miami.

A: A point well made. You would be hard pressed to find a perimeter defender who has accomplished more than LeBron on that end of the court. He has made game-defining plays on both ends, and his blocked shots have been every bit as impactful, if not more so, than Dwight's. I would have no issue with Dwight taking the honor. But any perimeter defender ahead of LeBron would be an injustice, at least at this stage.

Chronz
03-09-2012, 02:25 PM
Through 41 games, the Magic have had the same exact record 3 years in a row. Thats a an odd tidbit

Hawkize31
03-09-2012, 03:23 PM
Through 41 games, the Magic have had the same exact record 3 years in a row. Thats a an odd tidbit

Wow, that is odd. I guess they are consistent if nothing else. What would be really shocking is if they did it next year as well (presumably without Howard).

justinnum1
03-09-2012, 03:38 PM
SVG is a hell of a coach, **** you shaq for making him leave miami

Raph12
03-09-2012, 04:09 PM
Which you make known daily with your infinity to down talk him. Obsesses much.

I'm not trying to "down talk" him, I just list some facts and figures when people put him on a pedestal.

Ie: People thinking he deserves MVP again.

The same goes for Kobe Bryant, I love Kobe and he's one of my favorite players in the league (significantly moreso than Lebron). Yet when people overrate him, I jump in and state the facts and people call it "bashing"... So be it.


Through 41 games, the Magic have had the same exact record 3 years in a row. Thats a an odd tidbit

Good coaching, dominance by Dwight and an easy schedule (4th) so far explains it... Surprised we've been that consistent though.

ManRam
03-09-2012, 07:24 PM
Should Dwight's off the court drama affect him when it comes to ranks in the MVP race? He's still producing at a high level, has MVP numbers, and has his team top 3 in the East. Why should all that drama matter when he is proving he is valuable on the court? Is it because it's affecting the Magic's players game? I find that hard to believe since they're 26-15. I can't possibly imagine them having 30 wins like the Bulls and Heat with the roster they have.

Most definitely. It has really impacted this team in a negative way, despite their record. Look how flat they look 80% of the time. There's no spark in this team when they play average/below average teams. He oozes no leadership or emotion. He doesn't get his guys to play at their best, and that's supposed to be is job.

It's well-reported how bad that locker room is at times, how strained his friendship has become with a lot of the guys (supposedly he really only talks to Jameer these days), and he's just not a leader. Yes, he's producing, but not as well as last year, and it has come with a cost.

I still think he means more to his team than any other player, I just think he could be so much better, and is a distraction that matters. The team has been built with him in mind. Sure, the names aren't amazing, but they do compliment him amazingly well. All they're really lacking IMO is a go-to wing scorer. But even during our championship runs the team philosophy was the same as it is today. It's just the teams in the East have gotten better...and we haven't.

ManRam
03-09-2012, 07:27 PM
Not really when you consider the amount of productive players in the league now vs then and also the stars who have been missing games which in turn will boast your numbers vs the rest. Those numbers in any other era would be around 29-30 PER, but because of the amount of stars out and injured it is much higher than normal. For instance when you have productive guys in the league like MJ, Magic, Bird, Hakeem, Robinson, Malone, Barkley, etc who are all in there prime as well, going to be much tougher to have a greater gap on PER than them or much higher because of how well they produce. Nowadays your most productive guys are Lebron, Wade, CP3, Dwight, Dirk, but this year 3 of them have suffered from injuries, so obviously it will be much easier for Lebron's PER to be boosted up much more because no one else is either playing well or not playing at all.
And the fact that Wade is 2nd in the league in PER as well and the Heat still don't have the best record is what ruins it. Why do you think Magic and Kareem never won any MVP until 1987 once Kareem was clearly on the decline and not a top 10 player in the league anymore? Or why do you think Duncan didn't get it in 1999 because of playing with Robinson who was still in his prime or better yet why do you think Shaq didn't get it after 2000 because of how good Kobe was and being a top 5 player as well in the league despite having a top 3 record as well.
Only cases you had where a guy got the MVP was Moses in 1983 and Wilt in 1967 but they also were 7+ games ahead of the next team.



Like Tre said...the GAP between his PER and WS/48 compared to the rest of the league is HUGE. That tells more than how you think he would stack up 15-20 years ago. The gap is monstrous...and comparing that differential to the other greats compared to the players in their era is far more telling than anything else. He's dominating his competition as much as anyone ever has. Blame that competition if you want, but it is what it is.

Whether or you not you think his historical dominance is legit or not...his 2011-2012 dominance is, and that's all that matters in the MVP race. If this was any other player in this exact situation, knowing how you argue things, you'd be on the LeBron bandwagon. It's just, you don't like him, so you ignore the reason and logic you so often display...

tredigs
03-09-2012, 07:59 PM
Today's ranking's from NBA.com: http://www.nba.com/mvp-ladder/2011-12/index.html




Current Rankings
Rank Status Player
1 -- LeBron James
2 -- Kevin Durant
3 ^ Kobe Bryant
4 ^ Dwight Howard
5 -- Derrick Rose
6 ^ Kevin Love
7 Chris Paul
8 ^ Dwyane Wade
9 Russell Westbrook
10 -- Tony Parker



Still on board with the top two (I think it's clear), but HUGELY disagree where it starts to get interesting; Kobe at third. How can you have somebody who has shot you out of this many close 4th quarter games as a top 3 MVP selection?? It's truly amazing how coveted leading the league in points per game along with being a marketable player still is; Chucking be damned. And the Lakers lost their last two games to the WIZ and PISTONS while Kobe shot 17/57 (29%... and threw up 18 threes in the two games at a 27% clip). It's disappointing to see the game Kobe is dictating over there in LA commended with media outlets calling it a top 3 MVP performance.

D. Rose and the Bulls having the #1 record in the East (should be mentioned again that they have had the #1 easiest schedule in the NBA to this point) along with his legitimate game winner this week would be my choice for #3.

Kobe's having the worst shooting season of his career, is one of the worst 4th quarter players in the NBA (given his usage% I think he is by far the worst, personally), plays with the top forward/center combo in the NBA, and the Lakers are the 5 seed in the West after losing back to back games to two of the worst teams in the NBA on the backs of two disgusting performances by KB. But yeah, movinnnnn' on up! --- > (insert blue emoticon of disappointment)

ManRam
03-09-2012, 08:03 PM
I don't get how he moved up. That's actually unbelievable to me. I had him 3/4 about a week ago, but he's dropped a bit since then. I guess people just think his cast sucks. It would suck less if he worked on making them better. Yes, after the Big Three, the team has garbage. He's their offensive catalyst though, and he's not catalyzing.

Avenged
03-09-2012, 08:06 PM
Nice to see Dwight in the top 5! (#4) ;) told you guys. Dude is simply having an MVP season and has the Magic top 3 in the East.

JordansBulls
03-09-2012, 08:22 PM
Today's ranking's from NBA.com: http://www.nba.com/mvp-ladder/2011-12/index.html




Current Rankings
Rank Status Player
1 -- LeBron James
2 -- Kevin Durant
3 ^ Kobe Bryant
4 ^ Dwight Howard
5 -- Derrick Rose
6 ^ Kevin Love
7 Chris Paul
8 ^ Dwyane Wade
9 Russell Westbrook
10 -- Tony Parker



Still on board with the top two (I think it's clear), but HUGELY disagree where it starts to get interesting; Kobe at third. How can you have somebody who has shot you out of this many close 4th quarter games as a top 3 MVP selection?? It's truly amazing how coveted leading the league in points per game along with being a marketable player still is; Chucking be damned. And the Lakers lost their last two games to the WIZ and PISTONS while Kobe shot 17/57 (29%... and threw up 18 threes in the two games at a 27% clip). It's disappointing to see the game Kobe is dictating over there in LA commended with media outlets calling it a top 3 MVP performance.

D. Rose and the Bulls having the #1 record in the East (should be mentioned again that they have had the #1 easiest schedule in the NBA to this point) along with his legitimate game winner this week would be my choice for #3.

Kobe's having the worst shooting season of his career, is one of the worst 4th quarter players in the NBA (given his usage% I think he is by far the worst, personally), plays with the top forward/center combo in the NBA, and the Lakers are the 5 seed in the West after losing back to back games to two of the worst teams in the NBA on the backs of two disgusting performances by KB. But yeah, movinnnnn' on up! --- > (insert blue emoticon of disappointment)

Kobe probably moved up simply for beating Miami.

tredigs
03-09-2012, 08:45 PM
Kobe probably moved up simply for beating Miami.

Agreed, which is funny because that was a team win where the Lakers were able to fully expose the Bosh-less Heat in the paint without Bosh playing. Same story in Utah. Just two bad teams for them to play without Bosh given the strength of those frontcourts. And still, in no way makes up for the abysmal play by him in the back to back losses to bottom 5 teams in the league.

Iodine
03-09-2012, 08:47 PM
Big Baby
http://blogs.thescore.com/tbj/2012/02/26/tbj-orlando-dancin-hedo-finds-nba-soulmate/

/explanation

ManRam
03-09-2012, 09:13 PM
Big Baby
http://blogs.thescore.com/tbj/2012/02/26/tbj-orlando-dancin-hedo-finds-nba-soulmate/

/explanation

I watched that about 100 times the other night, and all I could gather is that there's a time and a place for dancing, and that was no the time nor the place...

If that was actually Hedo, I probably would have died upon first sight.

But yeah, BBD is definitely a worth MVP candidate.

I guess I'll post my list.

1. LeBron
2. Durant
3. Rose
4. Paul
5. Howard

Paul is having a slightly better year than Rose individually, but LAC is in a bit of a funk.

Again, it's hard to argue with Dwight's numbers, and the Magic record, and his importance...but I just don't think he's deserving :shrug: And while he doesn't have a ton around him, he is getting more help than most are willing to admit...and I just can't get past how he's holding this team hostage, how he's thrown everyone under the bus, and how he's probably the worst leader that happens to be a star in the NBA. I'll stop arguing against my team's best player starting now...

Iodine
03-09-2012, 09:18 PM
My list is the same as yours manram.

Oh and Tas (the guy who acted as hedo) apparently found out that Big Baby showed that to Hedo, but he doesnt want to participate in a double dancing Hedo video

~Iggy~
03-09-2012, 09:40 PM
James followed by Durant followed by Paul, Rose and Howard in whatever 3-5 order.

It's always a combination of personal stats, team performance and flashy 4th quarter plays intertwined into a storyline by the media that seems to create the MVP. James' got the personal stats #1 by far, the team performance is top 3 in the league. All he needs is a couple of flashy 4th quarter plays in the end of the season and the media will be all over him. Could see it going to Durant too though. The media had a love affair with him two seasons ago and then had a weird breakup when they took on their new Derrick Rose darling. Both James and Durant will keep on performing, it's all up to what kind of storyline the media wants this year.

beliges
03-09-2012, 10:39 PM
Gotta be Durant if the award was decided today. Spectacular season while leading his team to the best record in the league. Best player on the best team. Rose is up there along with LBJ. But Durant has this in the bag if the season ended today.

justinnum1
03-09-2012, 10:43 PM
Gotta be Durant if the award was decided today. Spectacular season while leading his team to the best record in the league. Best player on the best team. Rose is up there along with LBJ. But Durant has this in the bag if the season ended today.

:laugh: still with durant? I made a new poll, check it out.

Lebron is in the lead, durant isn't far behind, but he is definitely behind.

Both in the media(who votes) and PSD

beliges
03-09-2012, 10:51 PM
:laugh: still with durant? I made a new poll, check it out.

Lebron is in the lead, durant isn't far behind, but he is definitely behind.

Both in the media(who votes) and PSD

No offense but this poll of yours means nothing as far as MVP criteria. If youre a fan of a player you will vote for them to win. But im sorry, Durant without the help of a Wade or an all-star big has dont more for his team than LBJ has done for the Heat. Again, the MVP is the best player on the best team and so far this season, that has been Durant. Furthermore, you do realize that Lebron getting the MVP would be almost impossible due to the fact that he plays with such great players. Again, Lebron will NOT change the precedence when it comes to MVP. The award has been consistent for the past decade. The Thunder have been better than the Heat so far this season.

JordansBulls
03-09-2012, 10:55 PM
No offense but this poll of yours means nothing as far as MVP criteria. If youre a fan of a player you will vote for them to win. But im sorry, Durant without the help of a Wade or an all-star big has dont more for his team than LBJ has done for the Heat. Again, the MVP is the best player on the best team and so far this season, that has been Durant. Furthermore, you do realize that Lebron getting the MVP would be almost impossible due to the fact that he plays with such great players. Again, Lebron will NOT change the precedence when it comes to MVP. The award has been consistent for the past decade. The Thunder have been better than the Heat so far this season.

:clap:

northsider
03-09-2012, 11:01 PM
I love this thread lol.

justinnum1
03-09-2012, 11:16 PM
No offense but this poll of yours means nothing as far as MVP criteria. If youre a fan of a player you will vote for them to win. But im sorry, Durant without the help of a Wade or an all-star big has dont more for his team than LBJ has done for the Heat. Again, the MVP is the best player on the best team and so far this season, that has been Durant. Furthermore, you do realize that Lebron getting the MVP would be almost impossible due to the fact that he plays with such great players. Again, Lebron will NOT change the precedence when it comes to MVP. The award has been consistent for the past decade. The Thunder have been better than the Heat so far this season.

:yawn: you keep repeating yourself, except week after week lebron continues to be the frontrunner. The majority of voting media say its lebron.

Lebron, in the lead:)


And check the votes(i made them public) even people who are not miami fans and who dont like lebron are saying its him.

Oh, btw okc just lost cleveland and is no longer the best team in the league.

JordansBulls
03-10-2012, 12:01 AM
Can't win MVP when you teammate is 2nd in the league in PER and has a finals mvp as well on a team that he took to a title. It only worked for Moses Malone because Dr J had won a title with them yet. In this case Wade did, so that comes into play as well.

JordansBulls
03-10-2012, 12:08 AM
Like Tre said...the GAP between his PER and WS/48 compared to the rest of the league is HUGE. That tells more than how you think he would stack up 15-20 years ago. The gap is monstrous...and comparing that differential to the other greats compared to the players in their era is far more telling than anything else. He's dominating his competition as much as anyone ever has. Blame that competition if you want, but it is what it is.

Whether or you not you think his historical dominance is legit or not...his 2011-2012 dominance is, and that's all that matters in the MVP race. If this was any other player in this exact situation, knowing how you argue things, you'd be on the LeBron bandwagon. It's just, you don't like him, so you ignore the reason and logic you so often display...
I already explained why it was huge because of the stars being out and not playing. Check 1990, MJ had 4+ more PER than the next guy on a top 2 team and this was in a league when everyone was in there primes and healthy. Or Check 1962 when Wilt had a 5+ PER higher than the next guy. You put those guys in the league today and you see Lebron's PER around 29. something instead of where it is now simply because there aren't hardly many efficient players in the league today with the bad shot selection they have and the guys who were efficient are done such as KG, Duncan, etc.

Let's not forget also that Lebron is a guy who worries about stats more than anything else and after the defeat against Orlando in 2009 he wore a t-shirt regarding it.

http://i120.photobucket.com/albums/o165/JordansBulls/lebron-james-check-my-stats-shirt-2.jpg

tredigs
03-10-2012, 12:12 AM
Can't win MVP when you teammate is 2nd in the league in PER and has a finals mvp as well on a team that he took to a title. It only worked for Moses Malone because Dr J had won a title with them yet. In this case Wade did, so that comes into play as well.

Oh, you can't?

Well than ****, guess the vast majority of fans and the media (who, you know, are the actual voters) are just wrong/lying then.

Got any new 'what if' threads about whether if Raymond Felton was added as a 7th man to the 1957 Minneapolis Lakers; would it be enough to overtake the St. Louis Hawks as the 1 seed???

This one's obviously in the bag for... anyone but Lebron.

b@llhog24
03-10-2012, 12:18 AM
I already explained why it was huge because of the stars being out and not playing. Check 1990, MJ had 4+ more PER than the next guy on a top 2 team and this was in a league when everyone was in there primes and healthy. Or Check 1962 when Wilt had a 5+ PER higher than the next guy. You put those guys in the league today and you see Lebron's PER around 29. something instead of where it is now simply because there aren't hardly many efficient players in the league today with the bad shot selection they have and the guys who were efficient are done such as KG, Duncan, etc.

Let's not forget also that Lebron is a guy who worries about stats more than anything else and after the defeat against Orlando in 2009 he wore a t-shirt regarding it.

http://i120.photobucket.com/albums/o165/JordansBulls/lebron-james-check-my-stats-shirt-2.jpg
:confused:

tredigs
03-10-2012, 12:20 AM
I already explained why it was huge because of the stars being out and not playing. Check 1990, MJ had 4+ more PER than the next guy on a top 2 team and this was in a league when everyone was in there primes and healthy. Or Check 1962 when Wilt had a 5+ PER higher than the next guy. You put those guys in the league today and you see Lebron's PER around 29. something instead of where it is now simply because there aren't hardly many efficient players in the league today with the bad shot selection they have and the guys who were efficient are done such as KG, Duncan, etc.

Let's not forget also that Lebron is a guy who worries about stats more than anything else and after the defeat against Orlando in 2009 he wore a t-shirt regarding it.

http://i120.photobucket.com/albums/o165/JordansBulls/lebron-james-check-my-stats-shirt-2.jpg

You do realize KD is one of the most efficient volume scorers in NBA history, right? And he's having his best statistical season. Chris Paul? Kevin Love? These players are statistical savants. And they are in the 2011/12 NBA.

You pointing out Jordan's and Wilt's 2nd/3rd best all time PER seasons does nothing to prove otherwise. Only goes to show how dominant they were as well.

ManRam
03-10-2012, 12:21 AM
I
Let's not forget also that Lebron is a guy who worries about stats more than anything else and after the defeat against Orlando in 2009 he wore a t-shirt regarding it.


Oh. He definitely can't be the MVP now since he wore that shirt that one time.

JordansBulls
03-10-2012, 12:22 AM
Oh, you can't?

Well than ****, guess the vast majority of fans and the media (who, you know, are the actual voters) are just wrong/lying then.

Got any new 'what if' threads about whether if Raymond Felton was added as a 7th man to the 1957 Minneapolis Lakers; would it be enough to overtake the St. Louis Hawks as the 1 seed???

This one's obviously in the bag for... anyone but Lebron.

It's hype, this was a guy who came into the league and people are already talking and proclaiming him a top 10 player ever and he hadn't done squat. It's one thing when he earned it, but when you got people now saying he is already better than Bird, then that is when stuff goes too far. Not to mention that a guy who is a true MVP doesn't go to play with a proven winner on his team in his prime.

ManRam
03-10-2012, 12:25 AM
It's hype, this was a guy who came into the league and people are already talking and proclaiming him a top 10 player ever and he hadn't done squat. A guy who is a true MVP doesn't go to play with a proven winner on his team in his prime.

Yeah...most those guys get lucky and don't land in Cleveland...


You hate him very much, and you're letting that cloud your judgement. Plain and simple.

"True MVP", AKA, how I define the award any given year so that I can feel good about who I pick. Right?


Back to the "check my stats" thing. Name me one player in the NBA that is more concerned with his legacy, his statistical achievements, and topping every Laker record there is: Kobe. I dare you to knock him for caring about his stats and accolades.

JordansBulls
03-10-2012, 12:26 AM
You do realize KD is one of the most efficient volume scorers in NBA history, right? And he's having his best statistical season. Chris Paul? Kevin Love? These players are statistical savants. And they are in the 2011/12 NBA.

You pointing out Jordan's and Wilt's 2nd/3rd best all time PER seasons does nothing to prove otherwise. Only goes to show how dominant they were as well.

This isn't CP3 in 2008 or 2009, this is a guy who has missed games as well. And I wouldn't really put Kevin Love in the bracket of a statistical savant.
The fact Wade is 2nd in the league in PER while averaging 22/4/5 shows the difference now and then.

JordansBulls
03-10-2012, 12:31 AM
Yeah...most those guys get lucky and don't land in Cleveland...


You hate him very much, and you're letting that cloud your judgement. Plain and simple.

"True MVP", AKA, how I define the award any given year so that I can feel good about who I pick. Right?


Back to the "check my stats" thing. Name me one player in the NBA that is more concerned with his legacy, his statistical achievements, and topping every Laker record there is: Kobe. I dare you to knock him for caring about his stats and accolades.


I don't hate anyone, I just dislike the fact that there is always an excuse for him, and then people turn and say he had garbage all the time. Why don't you defend someone like Dirk like that or others? It's like all of a sudden once the Mavs won it was Dirk had all this talent and more than Lebron when not one person even said they would win the title yet alone get out of the West.

The guy backs out of everything he says he is going to do. He says he is going to be in the dunk contest and he renigs. Then he says he doesn't want to go ring chasing which is what he did going to Miami.
http://i120.photobucket.com/albums/o165/JordansBulls/LebronRingChaser.jpg
He also said he wasn't going to leave Cleveland until he brought them a title and then he left not years later but the same damn summer.
And then he holds a tv show conference about where he is going.
I understand he is good, but the support this guy gets for stuff like that is beyond ridiculous. Imagine Rose doing all of that and me supporting him.

ManRam
03-10-2012, 12:39 AM
I don't hate anyone, I just dislike the fact that there is always an excuse for him, and then people turn and say he had garbage all the time. Why don't you defend someone like Dirk like that or others? It's like all of a sudden once the Mavs won it was Dirk had all this talent and more than Lebron when not one person even said they would win the title yet alone get out of the West.

I do defend Dirk...I think he's amazing...and always has been :shrug: I rooted for him to win that MVP he got as hard as anyone.


It's not an "excuse" per se, it's a fact really. Name me a top 10 player of all time that won a ring with a lesser cast? Go! It's like expecting, or in your case demanding, the unprecedented.

I blame LeBron and hold him at fault for not winning last year, for sure; he's got time to make up for that. I can't fault him for not winning in Cleveland, when no star player in my lifetime ever won with as little as he had. No one in this league could have done more than he did IMO. If that's an excuse, so be it. I think it's just being fair and reasonable. It sucks he left, but that team couldn't bring in enough talent, and so be it. He was NOT lucky to land in a huge market, land on a team with a great coach, land on a team with a legit sidekick (or two, or three if you wanna talk about some of the great Laker/Celtics teams). So he left. OK...

If you blame him for not winning it all as a one man team, so be it. I don't. Again, I blame him last year, and I will continue to do so and perhaps my stance on him will change if he continues not to win...but that's the future.


Also, I don't see how any of that matters. He's having a year that is just so far and away better than anyone else in the league. If this was literally any other player putting up these numbers on a team with that success, I'm sure you'd be hyping them to win it too. He's been more dominant this year, compared to his competition, than any player in a long time. You can twist the MVP to award it to anyone that isn't the best player (like it happens all the time, like last year...) but that's silly, especially when there is one player who is playing just so much better than the rest of the world.

Oh well, we can debate all we want, unless he tears his ACL, he's winning this award.


And now we are bringing up not being in the dunk contest into an MVP discussion. Typical. When you run out of legit basketball arguments, we resort to garbage like dunk contests, shirts and stuff that happened over a year ago...

JordansBulls
03-10-2012, 12:48 AM
I do defend Dirk...I think he's amazing...and always has been :shrug: I rooted for him to win that MVP he got as hard as anyone.


It's not an "excuse" per se, it's a fact really. Name me a top 10 player of all time that won a ring with a lesser cast? Go! It's like expecting, or in your case demanding, the unprecedented.

I blame LeBron and hold him at fault for not winning last year, for sure; he's got time to make up for that. I can't fault him for not winning in Cleveland, when no star player in my lifetime ever won with as little as he had. No one in this league could have done more than he did IMO. If that's an excuse, so be it. I think it's just being fair and reasonable. It sucks he left, but that team couldn't bring in enough talent, and so be it. He was lucky to land in a huge market, land on a team with a great coach, land on a team with a legit sidekick (or two, or three if you wanna talk about some of the great Laker/Celtics teams). So he left. OK...

If you blame him for not winning it all as a one man team, so be it. I don't.


And this is where we disagree, because if the team he had from 2009 and 2010 was in the 80's or 90's then yeah you can't blame him for not winning, but as mentioned the teams he lost to in the playoffs those years are inexcusable as they were heavy favorites and should have won. Magic were playing with the worst backcourt in NBA History and the Celtics had 0 players on the all nba teams and won 11 fewer games. And who the hell else was supposed to win the title anyway if the Lakers didn't especially in 2009 with the injuries to the stars?
In 2009 KG was injured in the playoffs, Manu was injured, Yao and Mcgrady were injured and Jameer was injured. So of the teams contending that had a chance to win, each of them had injuries to star players.

Avenged
03-10-2012, 01:13 AM
Dirk did have talent..

And has had talent in seasons past. They just seemed to choke their chances away.

Just saying.

CHANGO
03-10-2012, 02:13 AM
I don't hate anyone, I just dislike the fact that there is always an excuse for him, and then people turn and say he had garbage all the time. Why don't you defend someone like Dirk like that or others? It's like all of a sudden once the Mavs won it was Dirk had all this talent and more than Lebron when not one person even said they would win the title yet alone get out of the West.

The guy backs out of everything he says he is going to do. He says he is going to be in the dunk contest and he renigs. Then he says he doesn't want to go ring chasing which is what he did going to Miami.
http://i120.photobucket.com/albums/o165/JordansBulls/LebronRingChaser.jpg
He also said he wasn't going to leave Cleveland until he brought them a title and then he left not years later but the same damn summer.
And then he holds a tv show conference about where he is going.
I understand he is good, but the support this guy gets for stuff like that is beyond ridiculous. Imagine Rose doing all of that and me supporting him.

You are hating jb...

One thing don't leads to another. What has to do what he promised, he said, or done with the fact that he is playing phenomenal this season and is the best in the NBA right now.

Let's forget his phenomenal season because he said he was going to participate in the dunk contest, he's a liar :mad:
??? The ****!! :laugh:

Let's forget he's the best player because he left his city without a title.

The only season where Lebron has help was last season. And he lead the team to the Finals. But I know your response so don't bother...

That Cavs team was one of the greatest, they had a 15th year All-Star and 4th time champion Shaquille O'neal, Varejao, Big Z, Mo and Delonte!! 62 wins in a season...

Yeah.. That's it.

CHANGO
03-10-2012, 02:18 AM
And this is where we disagree, because if the team he had from 2009 and 2010 was in the 80's or 90's then yeah you can't blame him for not winning, but as mentioned the teams he lost to in the playoffs those years are inexcusable as they were heavy favorites and should have won. Magic were playing with the worst backcourt in NBA History and the Celtics had 0 players on the all nba teams and won 11 fewer games. And who the hell else was supposed to win the title anyway if the Lakers didn't especially in 2009 with the injuries to the stars?
In 2009 KG was injured in the playoffs, Manu was injured, Yao and Mcgrady were injured and Jameer was injured. So of the teams contending that had a chance to win, each of them had injuries to star players.

Now we are going with the All-NBA team... LMAO...

BUT they had 3 future hall of famers, one of the best defenses in the NBA and one of the best coaches, also a rising star in Rondo. Hatin JB, hatin...

I said this again... Most educated troll in this forum.

tredigs
03-10-2012, 02:27 AM
This isn't CP3 in 2008 or 2009, this is a guy who has missed games as well. And I wouldn't really put Kevin Love in the bracket of a statistical savant.
The fact Wade is 2nd in the league in PER while averaging 22/4/5 shows the difference now and then.

Wade is averaging his 22.4/4.9/4.4 along with 1.3blks and 1.7stls in 31.9 minutes per game, and doing it with the best FG/FT% of his career. 3pt% is his worst yet, but averaging less than 1 a game so it's largely irrelevant. Him averaging the most blocks of his career in this amount of time (6 mpg less than his career average) are helping to boost his PER

When you look at PER, you always have to look at minutes per game (as that is what the counting stat numbers are divided by to make a players PER). Even in Lebron's case; he's averaging his 28/8/7 on the least minutes per game of his career (37.2), nearly 3 minutes less than his career average of 40. His skyrocketed PER is due to his vastly improved rebounding and vastly improved shooting efficiency (while the rest of the league is trending down in efficiency) while still maintaining his generally monstrous counting stats.

I hope that cleared some of it up for you my friend and you can continue to troll more responsibly in the future.

Raph12
03-10-2012, 02:34 AM
Wade is averaging his 22.4/4.9/4.4 along with 1.3blks and 1.7stls in 31.9 minutes per game, and doing it with the best FG/FT% of his career. 3pt% is his worst yet, but averaging less than 1 a game so it's largely irrelevant. Him averaging the most blocks of his career in this amount of time (6 mpg less than his career average) are helping to boost his PER

When you look at PER, you always have to look at minutes per game (as that is what the counting stat numbers are divided by to make a players PER). Even in Lebron's case; he's averaging his 28/8/7 on the least minutes per game of his career (37.2), nearly 3 minutes less than his career average of 40. His skyrocketed PER is due to his vastly improved rebounding and vastly improved shooting efficiency (while the rest of the league is trending down in efficiency) while still maintaining his generally monstrous counting stats.

I hope that cleared some of it up for you my friend and you can continue to troll more responsibly in the future.

Preach! Preach to this non-believer Digs!!!

@JB, you need to get past your hatred for Lebron man, you throw out 1000 excuses about this vs that, just ignore all that hate and enjoy him while he's still in his prime (what I've been doing for a couple of years now).

JordansBulls
03-10-2012, 10:15 AM
Now we are going with the All-NBA team... LMAO...

BUT they had 3 future hall of famers, one of the best defenses in the NBA and one of the best coaches, also a rising star in Rondo. Hatin JB, hatin...

I said this again... Most educated troll in this forum.

Dude what the hell are you talking about? A troll is someone who says crap that is not true. Everything I brought up is true and even provided sources showing it.

And I love how you mention they had 3 future hall of famers, but when I use that Lebron had proven winners in Ben Wallace (who was the only allstar on a team that won a title) and Shaq who is a 3x finals mvp winner, 1x league mvp winner the allstar game mvp winner from the previous season then it gets dismissed. Can't have the cake and eat it too

JordansBulls
03-10-2012, 10:33 AM
You are hating jb...

One thing don't leads to another. What has to do what he promised, he said, or done with the fact that he is playing phenomenal this season and is the best in the NBA right now.

Let's forget his phenomenal season because he said he was going to participate in the dunk contest, he's a liar :mad:
??? The ****!! :laugh:

Let's forget he's the best player because he left his city without a title.

The only season where Lebron has help was last season. And he lead the team to the Finals. But I know your response so don't bother...

That Cavs team was one of the greatest, they had a 15th year All-Star and 4th time champion Shaquille O'neal, Varejao, Big Z, Mo and Delonte!! 62 wins in a season...

Yeah.. That's it.

You didn't become a fan until Lebron came to the Heat. He came in July 2010 and then you join in Sep 2010. Wade actually led the Heat to a title, something Lebron didn't do and Wade brought a franchise that never won anything a title, something Lebron never did.

Lebron had plenty of help as well.

It is always an excuse for Lebron. He had the best record both years. Don't give me he doesn't have a number 2. Dirk is a guy who doesn't have a number 2, but how often does he get excuses made for him?

The fact of the matter is Lebron pretty much got Jamison for free as Big Z came back to the team and then he added Shaq (1x league mvp and 3 finals mvp's) without giving up anything really.
Jamison a career 20 and 8 player and was getting that this season on the Wizards. Shaq last year a 17 and 7 player and Mo was a 17 and 6 player before playing with Lebron.

No excuses, the Cavs were heavily favorite both years.

Maybe Lebron should stop being ball dominant and trying to get his points and numbers early on in the game against bad teams and get others going.

I said from the beginning, that Lebron needed to play like he did in game 1 of the Bulls vs Cavs series for the Cavs to succeed. Once he started dominating the ball, the Cavs were done.


IMO there are only a few times where the STAR PLAYER get the critism.

1.) Losing a Series with HCA.
2.) Playing bad and someone else on your team plays better
3.) Losing in the finals.


Every other superstar player that was on a good team ended up losing with HCA as well and to teams much inferior at that. That's the whole point of it. If you have HCA you should win the series.



http://proxy.espn.go.com/chat/chatESPN?event_id=26749



Josh (Los Angeles, CA): The Cavs didn?t match up well with Orlando, now all of a sudden Big Z (PER 18.03), Mo (17.25) and Delonte (14.16) aren't a good supporting cast and Rashard (16.83), Hedo (14.82), and Pietrus (11.69) are studs?


http://a.espncdn.com/i/sn2.gif

Chad Ford: It's the style of play. The way the Magic spread the floor was a challenge for guys like Ben Wallace and Z to guard. When Varejao got in foul trouble, they struggled to keep up.





Source: ESPN (http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/news/story?page=OffseasonPredictions09-EastChamps)





Cleveland Cavaliers (32 votes)

This thing is Cleveland's to lose, says our panel -- or 60.4 percent of our panel, anyway.

It's no surprise to see so many votes for a team that has the reigning MVP and won 66 games last season. On the other hand, the Cavs had the same points in their favor in May, and were the heavy favorites to win the East at that time, too. But Orlando took care of Cleveland thanks to some amazing shooting and the dominance of Dwight Howard, and the Cavs were left licking their wounds.



For those saying the Cavs aren't suppose to win, then answer this?

Source: ESPN (http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/playoffs/2009/columns/story?columnist=hollinger_john&page=PERDiem-090512)



1. Cleveland (+9.12)
Welcome to the Cleveland Invitational, ladies and gentlemen. Yes, the Pistons had given up and the Hawks had injuries, but the fact is the Cavs have won eight straight playoff games by double figures. In this case it's a continuation of the Cavs' strong finish to the season, and it doesn't appear either Boston or Orlando has the goods to make them sweat much in a conference finals.

Cleveland also has home-court advantage going for it in the final two rounds, so at this point the Cavs have to be considered a heavy favorite to win the championship. They're playing the best basketball, have the best draw, have home-court and have the best player. They still have to play the games, of course, but the skids have already been greased. While the likes of Denver or L.A. could give them a tough fight in the Finals, at this point it appears that the only team that can beat Cleveland is Cleveland.


Looks like the Cavs were heavy favorites.


So they played a team that gave up in the Pistons and one who was injured in Atlanta and now it is being said that neither Boston or Orlando will make them sweat. So who the hell is supposed to win it all if it isn't Cleveland?


Dirk gets critisizm for losing with a team that won over 65+ games and didn't win the title does he not?


http://s120.photobucket.com/albums/o165/JordansBulls/th_CavsvsMagicSeries.jpg

http://s120.photobucket.com/albums/o165/JordansBulls/th_CavsvsMagic2009Playoffs.jpg
http://s120.photobucket.com/albums/o165/JordansBulls/CavsvsMagic2009Playoffs.jpg

http://espn.go.com/nba/playoffs/2009/matchup/_/teams/magic-cavaliers



Source: Yahoosports (http://sports.yahoo.com/nba/blog/ball_dont_lie/post/The-10-best-teams-of-the-decade-never-to-win-a-c;_ylt=Ai8j0I4kfnCFSrGgLh3xx7q8vLYF?urn=nba,184569 )



1. Cleveland Cavaliers, 2008-09

I sort of like this also-ran, because it speaks to how we've grown as a sport-regarding culture over the years. These Cleveland Cavaliers ran up 66-wins, an almost-Bulls-like 8.9-point differential (way better than any team listed above), and had the greatest player in the game (LeBron James(notes)) at their disposal. And yet, when the team lost to the Orlando Magic in the Eastern Conference finals last spring, people seemed ready to smartly admit that the Cavs, for all their horses, just didn't have the horses to run with the Magic.

Nobody was labeled a choker, nobody was fired, and though the team traded for one big (hopeful) problem-solver in the offseason in Shaquille O'Neal, nobody seemed to overreact and make deals for the sake of making deals. Knowing that the team will have the best player in the game, at only age 24, around for at least the next season helps too; but you have to love the lack of hand-wringing. Still, the meek ending doesn't hide the fact that this was an otherwise dominant team that won 74 of its first 90 games before falling to the Magic in six.



In fact only 2 teams that have won 65+ games have not won the title and it was the 2007 Mavs and 1973 Celtics and now the 2009 Cavs.

These other teams all won the title.
2009 Lakers
2008 Celtics
2000 Lakers
1997 Bulls
1996 Bulls
1992 Bulls
1987 Lakers
1986 Celtics
1983 Sixers
1972 Lakers
1971 Bucks
1967 Sixers


While Lebron had another allstar on the team. This with Orlando missing it's star PG as well.



Lebron just lost with HCA and the superior supporting cast. He averaged 15.67 FTA a game in that series where he shot 94 FT in 6 games.

Bulls not only in 1991 but 1998 was the finest example won the title and this with Pippen missing over half the season on a bad foot and Bulls win 62 games. Pippen also has a bad back as well in the finals.


You say the Cavs didn't show up, well guess what, Lebron gets all the credit last year for taking the Celtics 7 games when he shot 35% from the field.

This year the Cavs underachieved in losing to Orlando who wasn't getting any publicity and who many thought would go down in round 1.



So Lebron had another allstar on the team, another 3 former allstars, a 4x DPOY player, a team top 4 in defensive and offensive efficiency, the team with the highest SRS rating all year long as well as the team who had the highest point differential all year long and then won it's first two series by more than 10+ points per game, but yet they weren't the favorite to beat Orlando who was missing it's star PG and whose SG was playing injured?

Hilarious!!!


Not even One analyst said the Magic would win.

In fact it was so bad that in games 3 and 4 in Orlando that the Cavs were a 2 point favorite on the road.

The Cavs had the best record all year, they had the highest point differential in winning, they had the highest SRS rating.

In the playoffs they won the first 2 rounds by 10+ points in every game and even in the playoffs the Cavs had a 8.5 pts per game differential which was the highest in the postseason that year.

The Cavs were cruising while the Magic were getting outplayed and down in the series to the Sixers initially and the Celtics without KG and then you expect me to believe that Orlando was the better team all along? I just don't buy that all and really it is just an excuse because the Cavs lost. Also lets not forget the Cavs were up each game at home of the 3 games by more than 20+ points each time.


So when I said it was on Lebron I meant in the sense that not that he played bad but that he was the leader of the team and Your leader shouldn't allow you to blow 20+ point leads in the playoffs at home especially when you go 39-2 at home all year. That is more or less why I said it was on Lebron.


Let's make something clear here, I never said Lebron played bad statistically in the series,

however him defending the worst offensive player on the court on Orlando made for a bad strategy.

Because who was Lebron guarding the series? Was he not guarding Rafer Alston? Why is he guarding someone that doesn't play his position when the guy who plays his position is an offensive threat? Because of that that allowed Hedo to shoot over his man. Lebron has to take fault for that.

He could have easily taken Hedo out of the game especially when the Cavs were up 20+ points in each of it's 3 home games.


Source: NBA.com (http://www.nba.com/bulls/news/asksam_081205.html)


Do you think in the end the one true comparison that will distinguish (Jordan and LeBron) is of course championships and awards records, etc., but the way Michael made people around him become better of course, but more specifically, Scottie Pippen.
Scottie did pull off some great moves that took extrordinary talent, but his ability to learn might have been the extraordinary part. Can LeBron create a Scottie Pippen type player or was Scottie an extension of MJ? All I know is these two together created some of the best and most extensive set of highlight reels man has ever known, some will say LeBron will need his Phil Jackson, and his Scottie Pippen.




Sam: It's starting to look like LeBron is about there,
and he may not need to turn someone into a Hall of Famer, as Jordan did for Pippen.
The league is not as strong or deep now, and I had a GM tell me this week he not only believes the Cavs will win the East, he thinks they'll win it all. And if that does
happen (remember, hardly anyone was picking the Bulls in 1991), it may mess up a lot of free agency plans as the likelihood is LeBron then stays in Cleveland.


And of course I am not comparing Lebron to MJ. Lebron didn't show up in the finals and had one of the worst finals ever and he also had 11 allstars on the team USA and ended up with 2 bronze medals as well.

Lebron had plenty of help on his team this year. He had another allstar in Mo Williams. He had a top 4 defensive rating and offensive rated team. The team had the highest SRS rating which means the strength by which you beat your opponents by. They had the highest point differential in the season and in the playoffs.

That team was the best team in the league that got upset by an inferior opponent.

So tell me who was the favorite to win the series between Orlando and Cleveland?



Let's not forget that Lebron plays well against Bad teams. He had over a 44.5 PER thru the first two rounds mainly because the other teams starters were just terrible. Case in point, Tayshaun Prince had a negative win shares amount and had a negative PER. PER is set at 15 for the average starter and for someone who starts to get a negative PER goes to show how bad they were. Thus Lebron was able to do what he does best and that is stat pad his numbers. That is why it hurt them later on.

And he certainly padded his stats against Detroit and Atlanta.


Good stats don't mean jack when you lose series with HCA and you are the heavy favorite to win the series. Just like MJ would have gotten the blame in 1988 had we lost to Cleveland because we had the HCA and the game went to the deciding game and this despite him averaging over vs. Cleveland, 1988: 45 pts/5 reb/5 ast/53% FG
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
I'll give you an example. The Bulls were 0-6 against the Cavs in 1989. Cavs were title contenders and we were barely making the playoffs. MJ proceeds to average over 40 ppg in that series and we win the series in 5 on the road on a game winner by MJ. Even the year before where we had HCA, MJ averaged over 45 ppg in that series and we went the distance and won game 5 at home.

Now you look at MJ's history and you see that whenever he had a team that won more games than the other or even that won the same number of games, he ALWAYS won the series. Essentially speaking MJ never lost a series with HCA.

Oh and you say Mo didn't show up, he still averaged 18 ppg. Hell let's look at what other guys did on some titles the Bulls won. MJ's next best player averages 15 ppg on 34% fg in the finals in 1996 and we win. He averages 16 ppg on 41% in the 1998 finals.
How is that any worse than what Mo did?

Oh and the Cavs were up by 20+ in every home game, how the hell can you blame the cast for that? If you are getting 20+ point leads at home your damn cast gotta be good especially if you have had that lead in each home game in the series.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------

The Cavs were not bad period.

1) They nearly beat the Sixers the last game of the season with the Sixers playing all of there best players the entire game and the Cavs were doing this with 3 starters out and 2 others playing less than 20 minutes.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------

Why things would have been different

1) Cavs had a 20 point lead in each of it's home games. There is no way in hell you get up by 20+ points in each home game in the conference finals without being a good team.

2) There is no reason why Lebron should have defended Rafer for most of the games at home. Rafer does not play well on the road period and most of the time doesn't play well. Another reason why this wasn't good it left Mo Williams and Delonte West to defend Lee and Hedo guys who were simply bigger than they were and thus they could shoot right over Mo Williams and Delonte West.

3) Lebron passed off on the last possession with the team down 1 point. When you are the star and your team is down and you are not up in the series, you take the shot.

4) Lebron held the ball too long on possessions. I know he did nearly everything, but it would have been quite different with a set offense then just passing the rock and expecting guys to hit shots with 4 seconds left on the shot clock when they hadn't touched the ball the entire possession.

5) Lebron simply needed to score 50+ in that game 1. He was hot, he needed to make sure the Cavs got that game.




http://espn.go.com/nba/recap?gameId=290520005 - Mentions 15 at the half, but it was 20 at one point.

http://espn.go.com/nba/recap?gameId=290522005 - Down by 23 in the second quarter the Magic were within 12 at halftime.


http://espn.go.com/nba/recap?gameId=290528005 - The Magic overcame a 22-point deficit but missed their first opportunity to close out the Cavaliers


--------------------------------------------------------------------------
One other thing about Playoff Win Shares and PER. Dirk had a higher PER and Win Shares in 2006 in the postseason than Wade, but would you say he was better when Wade won without HCA and beat Dirk in the finals?

Only thing that really matters is the finals. Playoffs come 2nd.


Hell Jerry West averaged 37.9 ppg in the finals in 1969 and he and Wilt get the blame for losing to the Celtics because the were heavy favorites in that series.

http://webuns.chez-alice.fr/finals/1969.htm#


------------------------------------------

Too bad Lebron lost with HCA and couldn't even win a gold medal with this lineup

http://www.fiba.com/pages/eng/fe/06_wcm/scheResu/p/eventid/3507/gamename/A/groupname/75/langlc/en/roundid/5152/fe_scheStat_boxScor.html




Greece 101, USA 95

4 J. Johnson - Star
5 K. Hinrich
6 L. James - Superstar
7 A. Jamison - Star
8 S. Battier
9 D. Wade - Superstar
10 C. Paul - Superstar
11 C. Bosh - Star
12 D. Howard - Superstar
13 B. Miller
14 E. Brand
15 C. Anthony - Superstar




http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2006_FIBA_World_Championship

If he couldn't win with this team:

Carmelo Anthony
Carlos Boozer
Tim Duncan
Allen Iverson
LeBron James
Richard Jefferson
Stephon Marbury
Shawn Marion
Lamar Odom
Emeka Okafor
Amare Stoudemire
Dwyane Wade

What makes you think he could win with a star?
--------------------------------------------------------------------------

Let's say Lebron had Iverson instead of Mo Williams, how do they do? Do they necessarily win with a guy that is a top 35 player all time instead?

--------------------------------------------------------------------------

The problem was that Cleveland didn't take Orlando seriously. It took Orlando 7 games to beat a KG less Boston team and Cleveland had won it's first 8 games by 10+ points each. Thus they overlooked Orlando and figured it was going to be easy especially with Jameer not playing as well.

Lebron very well may have had to average over 40 ppg in that series to win it, but he didn't. It is just like in 1969 Jerry West, Wilt and Baylor all get the blame for losing to the Celtics because they were the favorite and had the HCA despite West averaging nearly 39 ppg in that series.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------


Orlando made the finals with the worst backcourt of all time. How the hell do you make the finals with Rafer Alston and Courtney Lee (a rookie) as your starting backcourt?

People talk about Lebron's cast, but then fail to mention the cast Dwight had in 2009. Rafer and Lee was his starting backcourt. When they went to New Jersey that team won 12 games. Rashard Lewis was his PF and now on the Wizards with a franchise player in Wall that team has won like 13 games now. And then Hedo was on the Raptors and Suns and had absolutely no impact.
When you put it together Dwight's lineup was Rafer, Lee, Hedo, Lewis



Those guys didn't play well because they hardly ever had the ball. If you go back and watch the series vs Orlando you will hear Doug Collins mentioning how Lebron has the ball in his hands 16-18 seconds every possession. Your teammmates aren't going to perform well when that happens. And Dwight's cast was equally as bad.

Realistically who were the contenders in 2009?

Lakers obviously but outside of them, not reallly anyone else as Manu was out for San Antonio, tmac/Yao for the Rockets, KG for the Celtics and Nelson for the Magic.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------


This year Cleveland was the favorite from the get go and even more so mid way thru the year. Cleveland won 66 games and Orlando won 59 games. Cleveland had the HCA and was the heavy favorites to win the east with Garnett out. Now had the Celtics been healthy that is one thing, but Orlando hadn't proved anything in any other postseason. So dont tell me they were supposed to win this series.

Also Orlando was doing this without their star pg in Nelson who was the 2nd best player on the team. Cleveland lost 2 games at home this year and really only 1 as the last game of the year none of the starters played. And think of it, they still took the 6th seed to OT with not one starter playing.


It's amazing Orlando won with that backcourt and won missing it's 2nd best player. I thought Orlando would lose in 4 or 5 with how good Cleveland was doing and how much Orlando struggled with Philly and a KG less Celtics. I thought Orlando only had a chance to take it 7 with a healthy Jameer.


I don't what hear about someone not having a good supporting cast when they had the best record in the league and broke a record in the playoffs winning it's first 8 games by 10+ points each game.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------


2008-2009 Predictions - Eastern Conference

http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/news/story?page=eastoffseasonpredictions

http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/news/story?page=ConferenceChamps-080911


2008-09 PREDICTIONS: EASTERN CONFERENCE CHAMPS
RANK TEAM PREDICTED RECORD VOTES
1 Boston Celtics 55-27 (.671) 17
2 Cleveland Cavaliers 50-32 (.610) 6
3 Philadelphia Sixers 47-35 (.573) 2



http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/news/story?page=NBAChamps-080911

1 Los Angeles Lakers 55-27 (.671) 12
2 New Orleans Hornets 54-28 (.659) 6
3 Boston Celtics 55-27 (.671) 4
4 Houston Rockets 53-29 (.646) 2
5 Cleveland Cavaliers 50-32 (.610) 1





Last year's collapse in the Eastern Conference finals only made LeBron hungrier and more willing to expand his game. Now, opponents can expect to see him in the post more. Scary. And look for a resurgence from a truly motivated Shaq.




The Cavs were the best team in the East before collapsing against the Magic, and they've gotten even stronger in the offseason. Shaq and Anthony Parker should help shore up their bench. Still, they lack the athletic bigs to match up with the Magic in a seven-game series.

justinnum1
03-10-2012, 10:55 AM
Bron in the lead by a large margin:)

Would have thought durant have more votes, seeing as some believe he is the clear favorite:rolleyes: but nope. still bron

CHANGO
03-10-2012, 02:25 PM
:laugh:

ManRam
03-10-2012, 02:51 PM
JB, I started reading that novel then realized you don't care one bit about this season. Your saltiness is from the past...

This is the 2011-2012 MVP award. All that matters is what happens in the 2011-2012 season. I don't care if Cleveland was "supposed" to beat my Magic in 2009. I don't care if they had the best record, and still couldn't win it all. I don't care.

I care about this season, and it's no contest.

Sure, it's gotten a bit off topic. If you think he had a supporting cast on par with what Kobe had during his championship years, or MJ had during his, or Bird during his, or Russell during his, or etc...well, so be it. I don't, most don't, and we can agree to disagree and move on. NONE OF THAT HAS ANY BEARING ON THIS MVP RACE....or it least it shouldn't, unless that's the only way you can ignore the obvious and make yourself sleep easy at night.

We're discussing this year's NBA award...right?

b@llhog24
03-10-2012, 02:57 PM
JB's a weird guy.

Avenged
03-10-2012, 02:58 PM
Just a little on Andrew Bynum:

He is averaging 17 points on 56% shooting, 12 rebounds, and 2 blocks.

Has a PER of 22.6 (2nd on the Lakers), is leading the team in TS%, 1st in eFG%, 1st in rebounding %, 1st in blocking %, our best defender, and leads the team in WS/48. This guy is worth more wins than anybody on the Lakers roster.

Giving Kobe a run for his money..

ManRam
03-10-2012, 03:01 PM
Ryan Anderson has more win shares than Dwight Howard :hide:

No way should that be true (granted, Dwight has some deficiencies that should and do dent that number), but it does show that he has some help. When this team is shooting well, he's got a perfect cast to compliment his game...

b@llhog24
03-10-2012, 03:02 PM
Just a little on Andrew Bynum:

He is averaging 17 points on 56% shooting, 12 rebounds, and 2 blocks.

Has a PER of 22.6 (2nd on the Lakers), is leading the team in TS%, 1st in eFG%, 1st in rebounding %, 1st in blocking %, our best defender, and leads the team in WS/48. This guy is worth more wins than anybody on the Lakers roster.

Giving Kobe a run for his money..

Its obvious Bynum won't be the MVP due to his low Ppg but would you consider Bynum the best player on your team since he leads in so many advanced stat categories? Well except PER which tends to favor scorers.

CHANGO
03-10-2012, 03:04 PM
JB, I started reading that novel then realized you don't care one bit about this season. Your saltiness is from the past...

This is the 2011-2012 MVP award. All that matters is what happens in the 2011-2012 season. I don't care if Cleveland was "supposed" to beat my Magic in 2009. I don't care if they had the best record, and still couldn't win it all. I don't care.

I care about this season, and it's no contest.

Sure, it's gotten a bit off topic. If you think he had a supporting cast on par with what Kobe had during his championship years, or MJ had during his, or Bird during his, or Russell during his, or etc...well, so be it. I don't, most don't, and we can agree to disagree and move on. NONE OF THAT HAS ANY BEARING ON THIS MVP RACE....or it least it shouldn't, unless that's the only way you can ignore the obvious and make yourself sleep easy at night.

We're discussing this year's NBA award...right?

Seriously, I started to read but as you say one thing has nothing to do with the other. Now it's time to leave a madman with his views and opinions alone. Nothing we say will make him react, like Skip, and others in the media, he CLEARLY has an agenda.

SteBO
03-10-2012, 03:06 PM
JB you wasted your time dropping that 1/2 page bomb...

Fact remains, nobody was winning with mo Williams as their next best guy. Shaq was washed up already and so was Jamison. Why can't you accept this already?

ManRam
03-10-2012, 03:08 PM
Seriously, I started to read but as you say one thing has nothing to do with the other. Now it's time to leave a madman with his views and opinions alone. Nothing we say will make him react, like Skip, and others in the media, he CLEARLY has an agenda.

Hey, but he had Big Ben, fossilized Shaq and Mo Williams! How dare he not win! ESPN TOLD US HE WOULD WIN! Therefore he must of.

And more importantly, therefore he's not deserving of this award.

If JB can tell me some solid reasoning as to what he has done this year, without worrying and being bitter about the past, then I'll continue to discuss this with him. But so far every reason he has said as to why LeBron shouldn't win it has literally nothing to do with his play this year, and that's laughable.

ChiSoxJuan
03-10-2012, 03:16 PM
Record: edge Rose, Stats: edge Lebron, Style: edge Rose. You need to have 2/3 to win it easy. Style is how the player play's the game. What does he do that draws a fan's attention to the player? Rose definitely has the edge over Lebron there.

The same goes for the other candidates. If Durant gains the edge on record over Rose, then Rose will have just 1/3 (same as Lebron). It's a toss up then & record usually carries the most weight. Voters prefer to pick a new MVP.

ManRam
03-10-2012, 03:20 PM
Wow. I never knew "Style" was 1/3rd of the equation :laugh:

Iodine
03-10-2012, 03:29 PM
JB should seek some sort of treatment for his LeBron hate

justinnum1
03-10-2012, 03:32 PM
Wow. I never knew "Style" was 1/3rd of the equation :laugh:

for real :laugh2:

I got a good laugh from that one

Mr Costanza
03-10-2012, 05:22 PM
Record: edge Rose, Stats: edge Lebron, Style: edge Rose. You need to have 2/3 to win it easy. Style is how the player play's the game. What does he do that draws a fan's attention to the player? Rose definitely has the edge over Lebron there.

The same goes for the other candidates. If Durant gains the edge on record over Rose, then Rose will have just 1/3 (same as Lebron). It's a toss up then & record usually carries the most weight. Voters prefer to pick a new MVP.

Are you sure you aren't confusing the MVP race with Project Runway?

Don't worry, happens all the time.:)

5ass
03-10-2012, 05:43 PM
Record: edge Rose, Stats: edge Lebron, Style: edge Rose. You need to have 2/3 to win it easy. Style is how the player play's the game. What does he do that draws a fan's attention to the player? Rose definitely has the edge over Lebron there.

The same goes for the other candidates. If Durant gains the edge on record over Rose, then Rose will have just 1/3 (same as Lebron). It's a toss up then & record usually carries the most weight. Voters prefer to pick a new MVP.

anything to try and convince people Rose is MVP worthy :laugh:

Avenged
03-10-2012, 06:10 PM
Its obvious Bynum won't be the MVP due to his low Ppg but would you consider Bynum the best player on your team since he leads in so many advanced stat categories? Well except PER which tends to favor scorers.

I think for this season, he is our most valuable player.

I think he has surpassed Pau, but that also may be because Pau's aggressiveness went down a bit.

Andrew Bynum scores very efficiently, rebounds, defends. I still think Kobe is better but his play the past few games has hardly been impressive. I don't have Kobe in my top 5 in MVP voting, and honestly I'd have Bynum ahead of Kobe on these votings simply because of his production and dominance.

Iodine
03-10-2012, 06:28 PM
And people forget that often times Valuable does not have to equal best

ghettosean
03-10-2012, 06:46 PM
And people forget that often times Valuable does not have to equal best

Wow I'm glad someone in here actually recognizes that important fact!

Lebron for MVS 2011-2012 season

Most Valuable Stats!

ManRam
03-10-2012, 07:07 PM
I think the "most valuable" and "the best" are the same in one this year. Last year I eventually was fine with the MVP not being "the best". I actually thought both Rose and Dwight were better candidates for the award than LeBron, who was the best. Rose had the storyline; the 8 to 1 seed, the game winning shots, the perception that his cast was really worse than it was, the media attention and was the nice balance to the evils that was LeBron and the Heat. He was the fun, happy and refreshing story. Dwight had that team-is-worse-than-it-is perception as well (though, his cast was a bit worse than the Bulls, and a bit worse than it is this year), and wasn't considered a melodramatic, whiny infant. This year he has to be knocked down a peg for his off-the-court distractions that carry over on-the-court and the fact that he just has not been as good.

The difference this year to me is that the best player is just playing at so much more of a higher level than anyone else that it kinda seals the deal. The gap between his level of play and everyone else's this year is unlike any gap we've seen in a very long time.

SteBO
03-10-2012, 07:26 PM
I think the "most valuable" and "the best" are the same in one this year. Last year I eventually was fine with the MVP not being "the best". I actually thought both Rose and Dwight were better candidates for the award than LeBron, who was the best. Rose had the storyline; the 8 to 1 seed, the game winning shots, the perception that his cast was really worse than it was, the media attention and was the nice balance to the evils that was LeBron and the Heat. He was the fun, happy and refreshing story. Dwight had that team-is-worse-than-it-is perception as well (though, his cast was a bit worse than the Bulls, and a bit worse than it is this year), and wasn't considered a melodramatic, whiny infant. This year he has to be knocked down a peg for his off-the-court distractions that carry over on-the-court and the fact that he just has not been as good.

The difference this year to me is that the best player is just playing at so much more of a higher level than anyone else that it kinda seals the deal. The gap between his level of play and everyone else's this year is unlike any gap we've seen in a very long time.
In saying that though, would it shock you if Durant still won it? Not even including media bias, they typically don't like to hand over the award to same guy too many times, regardless of play.

Raph12
03-10-2012, 07:34 PM
In saying that though, would it shock you if Durant still won it? Not even including media bias, they typically don't like to hand over the award to same guy too many times, regardless of play.

If Lebron continues to play at the level he's played at this season and their record stays within one game or so... It wouldn't "shock" me, but it would definitely piss me off if KD won it.

ghettosean
03-10-2012, 07:40 PM
I think the "most valuable" and "the best" are the same in one this year. Last year I eventually was fine with the MVP not being "the best". I actually thought both Rose and Dwight were better candidates for the award than LeBron, who was the best. Rose had the storyline; the 8 to 1 seed, the game winning shots, the perception that his cast was really worse than it was, the media attention and was the nice balance to the evils that was LeBron and the Heat. He was the fun, happy and refreshing story. Dwight had that team-is-worse-than-it-is perception as well (though, his cast was a bit worse than the Bulls, and a bit worse than it is this year), and wasn't considered a melodramatic, whiny infant. This year he has to be knocked down a peg for his off-the-court distractions that carry over on-the-court and the fact that he just has not been as good.

The difference this year to me is that the best player is just playing at so much more of a higher level than anyone else that it kinda seals the deal. The gap between his level of play and everyone else's this year is unlike any gap we've seen in a very long time.

If this is true...

Also on top of that he has 2 of the top 15 players in the league on his team favored to win it all before the season even started aaaaaaaaaaaaaaand even one of them in ranked #2 in PER behind Lebron... How in the hell are you not even best team in the east never mind the league and that's underachieving in my eyes. Maybe if they get the best record and then maybe I would consider him for MVP but I think it's more just meeting expectations at that point.

If Durant got injured I don't seem them staying as a top team in the West but if Lebron went out and Wade and Bosh had to pick up the slack I would see them being ranked around where they are right now.

I'm not convinced.

Why do people get so enamored by statistics and not look at the full picture. Rose is currently my MVP followed by Durant, Parker and then Lebron.

SteBO
03-10-2012, 07:43 PM
If this is true...

Also on top of that he has 2 of the top 15 players in the league on his team favored to win it all before the season even started aaaaaaaaaaaaaaand even one of them in ranked #2 in PER behind Lebron... How in the hell are you not even best team in the east never mind the league and that's underachieving in my eyes. Maybe if they get the best record and then maybe just maybe I would consider him for MVP but I think it's more just meeting expectations at that point.

If Durant got injured I don't seem them staying as a top team in the league but if Lebron went out and Wade and Bosh had to pick up the slack I would see them being ranked around where they are right now.

I'm not convinced.
You know what this statement shows? You have a different view about what the award is about. I do hear you, and all your points are very much valid.

ManRam
03-10-2012, 07:52 PM
If this is true...

Also on top of that he has 2 of the top 15 players in the league on his team favored to win it all before the season even started aaaaaaaaaaaaaaand even one of them in ranked #2 in PER behind Lebron... How in the hell are you not even best team in the east never mind the league and that's underachieving in my eyes. Maybe if they get the best record and then maybe just maybe I would consider him for MVP but I think it's more just meeting expectations at that point.

If Durant got injured I don't seem them staying as a top team in the league but if Lebron went out and Wade and Bosh had to pick up the slack I would see them being ranked around where they are right now.

I'm not convinced.

I do think that what I said is true...

And nothing you say is not true. We just disagree on the most important criteria.

Yes, he now plays on a great team...but so have many other MVP winners. He has a top 5 player, and he has another top 15-20 player too. But he's the life force of that team. He's the guy who can beat you by scoring, passing, or doing neither. He'll do what it takes. He'll defend your PG if he has to, and he'll defend your center if he has to as well. He'll shoot the ball 10 times to win, or he'll shoot it 30 times if he has to. He's so versatile and so fluid. He's not the best defender in the league, but hands down he's the most versatile.

I really think your argument here is the only one that can be used against him, and in my opinion, that's too frivolous. I don't care. He's the best player, and he's the most valuable player...at least in my interpretation of those two words. He might not be more valuable to his team, but he's more valuable to any team than any other player.

For whatever reason they don't have the best record, be it effort, be it injuries, be whatever, it has nothing to do with his play. They aren't a perfect team. We know their weaknesses, and they exist. But it takes a TEAM to be great, not just three players. Their expectations are sky high, so maybe if they don't live up to them then I'll struggle more to give it to them. But with no other team in the league with more losses than them, I'm not going to knock their team's play much and use it against him.


He's playing the best basketball we've seen in perhaps a decade plus. He's worth more wins, statistically or subjectively, than any player has been worth in quite some time. That gap between him and the next best player is too big for me to worry about semantics. :shrug: And I do think a lot of this rhetoric is semantics.

Iodine
03-10-2012, 07:54 PM
Um why was I quoted that way lol?

theheatles
03-10-2012, 08:07 PM
any non biased and informed nba fan knows lebron is the clear mvp thus far, votes for rose and durant is nice but they all have ulterior motives b y casting votes for them

naps
03-10-2012, 08:14 PM
You didn't become a fan until Lebron came to the Heat. He came in July 2010 and then you join in Sep 2010. Wade actually led the Heat to a title, something Lebron didn't do and Wade brought a franchise that never won anything a title, something Lebron never did.

Lebron had plenty of help as well.

It is always an excuse for Lebron. He had the best record both years. Don't give me he doesn't have a number 2. Dirk is a guy who doesn't have a number 2, but how often does he get excuses made for him?

The fact of the matter is Lebron pretty much got Jamison for free as Big Z came back to the team and then he added Shaq (1x league mvp and 3 finals mvp's) without giving up anything really.
Jamison a career 20 and 8 player and was getting that this season on the Wizards. Shaq last year a 17 and 7 player and Mo was a 17 and 6 player before playing with Lebron.

No excuses, the Cavs were heavily favorite both years.

Maybe Lebron should stop being ball dominant and trying to get his points and numbers early on in the game against bad teams and get others going.

I said from the beginning, that Lebron needed to play like he did in game 1 of the Bulls vs Cavs series for the Cavs to succeed. Once he started dominating the ball, the Cavs were done.


IMO there are only a few times where the STAR PLAYER get the critism.

1.) Losing a Series with HCA.
2.) Playing bad and someone else on your team plays better
3.) Losing in the finals.


Every other superstar player that was on a good team ended up losing with HCA as well and to teams much inferior at that. That's the whole point of it. If you have HCA you should win the series.



http://proxy.espn.go.com/chat/chatESPN?event_id=26749





Source: ESPN (http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/news/story?page=OffseasonPredictions09-EastChamps)







For those saying the Cavs aren't suppose to win, then answer this?

Source: ESPN (http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/playoffs/2009/columns/story?columnist=hollinger_john&page=PERDiem-090512)



Looks like the Cavs were heavy favorites.


So they played a team that gave up in the Pistons and one who was injured in Atlanta and now it is being said that neither Boston or Orlando will make them sweat. So who the hell is supposed to win it all if it isn't Cleveland?


Dirk gets critisizm for losing with a team that won over 65+ games and didn't win the title does he not?


http://s120.photobucket.com/albums/o165/JordansBulls/th_CavsvsMagicSeries.jpg

http://s120.photobucket.com/albums/o165/JordansBulls/th_CavsvsMagic2009Playoffs.jpg
http://s120.photobucket.com/albums/o165/JordansBulls/CavsvsMagic2009Playoffs.jpg

http://espn.go.com/nba/playoffs/2009/matchup/_/teams/magic-cavaliers



Source: Yahoosports (http://sports.yahoo.com/nba/blog/ball_dont_lie/post/The-10-best-teams-of-the-decade-never-to-win-a-c;_ylt=Ai8j0I4kfnCFSrGgLh3xx7q8vLYF?urn=nba,184569 )




In fact only 2 teams that have won 65+ games have not won the title and it was the 2007 Mavs and 1973 Celtics and now the 2009 Cavs.

These other teams all won the title.
2009 Lakers
2008 Celtics
2000 Lakers
1997 Bulls
1996 Bulls
1992 Bulls
1987 Lakers
1986 Celtics
1983 Sixers
1972 Lakers
1971 Bucks
1967 Sixers


While Lebron had another allstar on the team. This with Orlando missing it's star PG as well.



Lebron just lost with HCA and the superior supporting cast. He averaged 15.67 FTA a game in that series where he shot 94 FT in 6 games.

Bulls not only in 1991 but 1998 was the finest example won the title and this with Pippen missing over half the season on a bad foot and Bulls win 62 games. Pippen also has a bad back as well in the finals.


You say the Cavs didn't show up, well guess what, Lebron gets all the credit last year for taking the Celtics 7 games when he shot 35% from the field.

This year the Cavs underachieved in losing to Orlando who wasn't getting any publicity and who many thought would go down in round 1.



So Lebron had another allstar on the team, another 3 former allstars, a 4x DPOY player, a team top 4 in defensive and offensive efficiency, the team with the highest SRS rating all year long as well as the team who had the highest point differential all year long and then won it's first two series by more than 10+ points per game, but yet they weren't the favorite to beat Orlando who was missing it's star PG and whose SG was playing injured?

Hilarious!!!


Not even One analyst said the Magic would win.

In fact it was so bad that in games 3 and 4 in Orlando that the Cavs were a 2 point favorite on the road.

The Cavs had the best record all year, they had the highest point differential in winning, they had the highest SRS rating.

In the playoffs they won the first 2 rounds by 10+ points in every game and even in the playoffs the Cavs had a 8.5 pts per game differential which was the highest in the postseason that year.

The Cavs were cruising while the Magic were getting outplayed and down in the series to the Sixers initially and the Celtics without KG and then you expect me to believe that Orlando was the better team all along? I just don't buy that all and really it is just an excuse because the Cavs lost. Also lets not forget the Cavs were up each game at home of the 3 games by more than 20+ points each time.


So when I said it was on Lebron I meant in the sense that not that he played bad but that he was the leader of the team and Your leader shouldn't allow you to blow 20+ point leads in the playoffs at home especially when you go 39-2 at home all year. That is more or less why I said it was on Lebron.


Let's make something clear here, I never said Lebron played bad statistically in the series,

however him defending the worst offensive player on the court on Orlando made for a bad strategy.

Because who was Lebron guarding the series? Was he not guarding Rafer Alston? Why is he guarding someone that doesn't play his position when the guy who plays his position is an offensive threat? Because of that that allowed Hedo to shoot over his man. Lebron has to take fault for that.

He could have easily taken Hedo out of the game especially when the Cavs were up 20+ points in each of it's 3 home games.


Source: NBA.com (http://www.nba.com/bulls/news/asksam_081205.html)







And of course I am not comparing Lebron to MJ. Lebron didn't show up in the finals and had one of the worst finals ever and he also had 11 allstars on the team USA and ended up with 2 bronze medals as well.

Lebron had plenty of help on his team this year. He had another allstar in Mo Williams. He had a top 4 defensive rating and offensive rated team. The team had the highest SRS rating which means the strength by which you beat your opponents by. They had the highest point differential in the season and in the playoffs.

That team was the best team in the league that got upset by an inferior opponent.

So tell me who was the favorite to win the series between Orlando and Cleveland?



Let's not forget that Lebron plays well against Bad teams. He had over a 44.5 PER thru the first two rounds mainly because the other teams starters were just terrible. Case in point, Tayshaun Prince had a negative win shares amount and had a negative PER. PER is set at 15 for the average starter and for someone who starts to get a negative PER goes to show how bad they were. Thus Lebron was able to do what he does best and that is stat pad his numbers. That is why it hurt them later on.

And he certainly padded his stats against Detroit and Atlanta.


Good stats don't mean jack when you lose series with HCA and you are the heavy favorite to win the series. Just like MJ would have gotten the blame in 1988 had we lost to Cleveland because we had the HCA and the game went to the deciding game and this despite him averaging over vs. Cleveland, 1988: 45 pts/5 reb/5 ast/53% FG
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
I'll give you an example. The Bulls were 0-6 against the Cavs in 1989. Cavs were title contenders and we were barely making the playoffs. MJ proceeds to average over 40 ppg in that series and we win the series in 5 on the road on a game winner by MJ. Even the year before where we had HCA, MJ averaged over 45 ppg in that series and we went the distance and won game 5 at home.

Now you look at MJ's history and you see that whenever he had a team that won more games than the other or even that won the same number of games, he ALWAYS won the series. Essentially speaking MJ never lost a series with HCA.

Oh and you say Mo didn't show up, he still averaged 18 ppg. Hell let's look at what other guys did on some titles the Bulls won. MJ's next best player averages 15 ppg on 34% fg in the finals in 1996 and we win. He averages 16 ppg on 41% in the 1998 finals.
How is that any worse than what Mo did?

Oh and the Cavs were up by 20+ in every home game, how the hell can you blame the cast for that? If you are getting 20+ point leads at home your damn cast gotta be good especially if you have had that lead in each home game in the series.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------

The Cavs were not bad period.

1) They nearly beat the Sixers the last game of the season with the Sixers playing all of there best players the entire game and the Cavs were doing this with 3 starters out and 2 others playing less than 20 minutes.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------

Why things would have been different

1) Cavs had a 20 point lead in each of it's home games. There is no way in hell you get up by 20+ points in each home game in the conference finals without being a good team.

2) There is no reason why Lebron should have defended Rafer for most of the games at home. Rafer does not play well on the road period and most of the time doesn't play well. Another reason why this wasn't good it left Mo Williams and Delonte West to defend Lee and Hedo guys who were simply bigger than they were and thus they could shoot right over Mo Williams and Delonte West.

3) Lebron passed off on the last possession with the team down 1 point. When you are the star and your team is down and you are not up in the series, you take the shot.

4) Lebron held the ball too long on possessions. I know he did nearly everything, but it would have been quite different with a set offense then just passing the rock and expecting guys to hit shots with 4 seconds left on the shot clock when they hadn't touched the ball the entire possession.

5) Lebron simply needed to score 50+ in that game 1. He was hot, he needed to make sure the Cavs got that game.




http://espn.go.com/nba/recap?gameId=290520005 - Mentions 15 at the half, but it was 20 at one point.

http://espn.go.com/nba/recap?gameId=290522005 - Down by 23 in the second quarter the Magic were within 12 at halftime.


http://espn.go.com/nba/recap?gameId=290528005 - The Magic overcame a 22-point deficit but missed their first opportunity to close out the Cavaliers


--------------------------------------------------------------------------
One other thing about Playoff Win Shares and PER. Dirk had a higher PER and Win Shares in 2006 in the postseason than Wade, but would you say he was better when Wade won without HCA and beat Dirk in the finals?

Only thing that really matters is the finals. Playoffs come 2nd.


Hell Jerry West averaged 37.9 ppg in the finals in 1969 and he and Wilt get the blame for losing to the Celtics because the were heavy favorites in that series.

http://webuns.chez-alice.fr/finals/1969.htm#


------------------------------------------

Too bad Lebron lost with HCA and couldn't even win a gold medal with this lineup

http://www.fiba.com/pages/eng/fe/06_wcm/scheResu/p/eventid/3507/gamename/A/groupname/75/langlc/en/roundid/5152/fe_scheStat_boxScor.html




Greece 101, USA 95

4 J. Johnson - Star
5 K. Hinrich
6 L. James - Superstar
7 A. Jamison - Star
8 S. Battier
9 D. Wade - Superstar
10 C. Paul - Superstar
11 C. Bosh - Star
12 D. Howard - Superstar
13 B. Miller
14 E. Brand
15 C. Anthony - Superstar




http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2006_FIBA_World_Championship

If he couldn't win with this team:

Carmelo Anthony
Carlos Boozer
Tim Duncan
Allen Iverson
LeBron James
Richard Jefferson
Stephon Marbury
Shawn Marion
Lamar Odom
Emeka Okafor
Amare Stoudemire
Dwyane Wade

What makes you think he could win with a star?
--------------------------------------------------------------------------

Let's say Lebron had Iverson instead of Mo Williams, how do they do? Do they necessarily win with a guy that is a top 35 player all time instead?

--------------------------------------------------------------------------

The problem was that Cleveland didn't take Orlando seriously. It took Orlando 7 games to beat a KG less Boston team and Cleveland had won it's first 8 games by 10+ points each. Thus they overlooked Orlando and figured it was going to be easy especially with Jameer not playing as well.

Lebron very well may have had to average over 40 ppg in that series to win it, but he didn't. It is just like in 1969 Jerry West, Wilt and Baylor all get the blame for losing to the Celtics because they were the favorite and had the HCA despite West averaging nearly 39 ppg in that series.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------


Orlando made the finals with the worst backcourt of all time. How the hell do you make the finals with Rafer Alston and Courtney Lee (a rookie) as your starting backcourt?

People talk about Lebron's cast, but then fail to mention the cast Dwight had in 2009. Rafer and Lee was his starting backcourt. When they went to New Jersey that team won 12 games. Rashard Lewis was his PF and now on the Wizards with a franchise player in Wall that team has won like 13 games now. And then Hedo was on the Raptors and Suns and had absolutely no impact.
When you put it together Dwight's lineup was Rafer, Lee, Hedo, Lewis



Those guys didn't play well because they hardly ever had the ball. If you go back and watch the series vs Orlando you will hear Doug Collins mentioning how Lebron has the ball in his hands 16-18 seconds every possession. Your teammmates aren't going to perform well when that happens. And Dwight's cast was equally as bad.

Realistically who were the contenders in 2009?

Lakers obviously but outside of them, not reallly anyone else as Manu was out for San Antonio, tmac/Yao for the Rockets, KG for the Celtics and Nelson for the Magic.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------


This year Cleveland was the favorite from the get go and even more so mid way thru the year. Cleveland won 66 games and Orlando won 59 games. Cleveland had the HCA and was the heavy favorites to win the east with Garnett out. Now had the Celtics been healthy that is one thing, but Orlando hadn't proved anything in any other postseason. So dont tell me they were supposed to win this series.

Also Orlando was doing this without their star pg in Nelson who was the 2nd best player on the team. Cleveland lost 2 games at home this year and really only 1 as the last game of the year none of the starters played. And think of it, they still took the 6th seed to OT with not one starter playing.


It's amazing Orlando won with that backcourt and won missing it's 2nd best player. I thought Orlando would lose in 4 or 5 with how good Cleveland was doing and how much Orlando struggled with Philly and a KG less Celtics. I thought Orlando only had a chance to take it 7 with a healthy Jameer.


I don't what hear about someone not having a good supporting cast when they had the best record in the league and broke a record in the playoffs winning it's first 8 games by 10+ points each game.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------


2008-2009 Predictions - Eastern Conference

http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/news/story?page=eastoffseasonpredictions

http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/news/story?page=ConferenceChamps-080911


2008-09 PREDICTIONS: EASTERN CONFERENCE CHAMPS
RANK TEAM PREDICTED RECORD VOTES
1 Boston Celtics 55-27 (.671) 17
2 Cleveland Cavaliers 50-32 (.610) 6
3 Philadelphia Sixers 47-35 (.573) 2



http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/news/story?page=NBAChamps-080911

1 Los Angeles Lakers 55-27 (.671) 12
2 New Orleans Hornets 54-28 (.659) 6
3 Boston Celtics 55-27 (.671) 4
4 Houston Rockets 53-29 (.646) 2
5 Cleveland Cavaliers 50-32 (.610) 1




WTF was that??? What exactly does that have to do with this years MVP award?

JB, stop being so damn ridiculous. I miss the old times when I was just a reader of this site, you were a MOD, and you would make good posts. I am sure you quite MOD just to troll on LeBron since he didn't pick your Bulls. I'll say it again you have been ****ing ridiculous when it comes to LeBron. Just take a look at if anyone here is agreeing with you. You are getting called out by so many neutral posters should tell you something man.

JordansBulls
03-10-2012, 08:20 PM
WTF was that??? What exactly does that have to do with this years MVP award?

JB, stop being so damn ridiculous. I miss the old times when I was just a reader of this site, you were a MOD, and you would make good posts. I am sure you quite MOD just to troll on LeBron since he didn't pick your Bulls. I'll say it again you have been ****ing ridiculous when it comes to LeBron. Just take a look at if anyone here is agreeing with you. You are getting called out by so many neutral posters should tell you something man.

CHANGO said:


The only season where Lebron has help was last season. And he lead the team to the Finals. But I know your response so don't bother...


And thus I proved him wrong.

Now apologize.:)

ManRam
03-10-2012, 08:25 PM
CHANGO said:


And thus I proved him wrong.

Now apologize.:)

Except you didn't. ;) But we'll agree to disagree.

So why doesn't he deserve the award this year, again? Just because I'm not quite what your reasoning is any more.

JordansBulls
03-10-2012, 08:29 PM
Except you didn't. ;) But we'll agree to disagree.

So why doesn't he deserve the award this year, again? Just because I'm not quite what your reasoning is any more.

Well for one his teammate is 2nd in the league in PER and next they don't even have the best record. Also the Heat are the only team with 3 allstars. They also are the team that was hands down favorite to win it all. Next off they were a #2 seed last season, so getting it again this season when heavy favorites is not going to get you MVP. Next off the only guys who got MVP a 3rd time before a title were Moses and Wilt and both of them had the best numbers in the league, but also had won 7+ more games than the next team in the league so it is like they had to get MVP. That is not the case with Miami. Anything less than a #1 seed when you have 3 guys who made the allstar team is not bringing home a MVP trophy.
Prove to me where a guy who won league mvp while having 3 guys on the team who made the allstar team and the team did not finish 1st record wise in the conference? You would be hard pressed to find one.

Iodine
03-10-2012, 08:31 PM
WTF was that??? What exactly does that have to do with this years MVP award?

JB, stop being so damn ridiculous. I miss the old times when I was just a reader of this site, you were a MOD, and you would make good posts. I am sure you quite MOD just to troll on LeBron since he didn't pick your Bulls. I'll say it again you have been ****ing ridiculous when it comes to LeBron. Just take a look at if anyone here is agreeing with you. You are getting called out by so many neutral posters should tell you something man.

Win

ManRam
03-10-2012, 08:33 PM
Well for one his teammate is 2nd in the league in PER and next they don't even have the best record. Also the Heat are the only team with 3 allstars. They also are the team that was hands down favorite to win it all. Next off they were a #2 seed last season, so getting it again this season when heavy favorites is not going to get you MVP. Next off the only guys who got MVP a 3rd time before a title were Moses and Wilt and both of them had the best numbers in the league, but also had won 7+ more games than the next team in the league so it is like they had to get MVP. That is not the case with Miami. Anything less than a #1 seed when you have 3 guys who made the allstar team is not bringing home a MVP trophy.
Prove to me where a guy who won league mvp while having 3 guys on the team who made the allstar team and the team did not finish 1st record wise in the conference? You would be hard pressed to find one.

OK. So basically for any and every reason that has nothing to do with his individual play. Got it!

Fair enough. That's not how I'm deciding MVPs, but if you feel that matters, so be it. I can't get passed how much better he is than everyone else...and how historic of a season he's having.


As for MVPs with 2 other all stars, I'll start with Larry bird, and continue to do research and get back to you. I know Bird won it at least once with two other all-stars (McHale and Parish).

Edit: In 84 he won it with Parish and McHale being all stars. In 85 he won it with Parish and Johnson as all stars. And 86 he had McHale and Parish again. So, yeah...they did have the best record all three years. But the #1 overall record will be determined.

naps
03-10-2012, 08:34 PM
CHANGO said:


And thus I proved him wrong.

Now apologize.:)

Well, you didn't prove him wrong. LeBron never had championship teams in his career in Cleveland. Let's be real he never had talents (As a Cav) MJ, Magic, Russell, Bird, Duncan, Shaq, Kobe have had in their respective careers, Not EVEN CLOSE. Who the **** is gonna win a championship with a role player Mo-Willams as your second best player? I don't care what ESPN predicted because they were plain wrong. I have a ****ing brain, I know the history, and I know what it takes to win it all. LeBron should only be blamed for last years. What he did with those Cavs scrubs, NO ONE in the history of basketball could replicate except probably Micheal Jordan.

ManRam
03-10-2012, 08:38 PM
Well, you didn't prove him wrong. LeBron never had championship teams in his career in Cleveland. Let's be real he never had talents (As a Cav) MJ, Magic, Russell, Bird, Duncan, Shaq, Kobe have had in their respective careers, Not EVEN CLOSE. Who the **** is gonna win a championship with a role player Mo-Willams as your second best player? I don't care what ESPN predicted because they were plain wrong. I have a ****ing brain, I know the history, and I know what it takes to win it all. LeBron should only be blamed for last years. What he did with those Cavs scrubs, NO ONE in the history of basketball could replicate except probably Micheal Jordan.

I'd give up. JB thinks Shaq was still a great player who could play more than 20 minutes a game in the playoffs. He thinks Ben Wallace was still a force. He thinks Mo Williams was a worthy sidekick. He thinks Z was hitting his peak when LeBron was. He probably thinks Mike Brown is a good coach. He probably thinks those shooters didn't miss like every shot they took in the biggest playoff series...

Iodine
03-10-2012, 08:44 PM
I love you naps

JordansBulls
03-10-2012, 08:51 PM
OK. So basically for any and every reason that has nothing to do with his individual play. Got it!

Fair enough. That's not how I'm deciding MVPs, but if you feel that matters, so be it. I can't get passed how much better he is than everyone else...and how historic of a season he's having.


As for MVPs with 2 other all stars, I'll start with Larry bird, and continue to do research and get back to you. I know Bird won it at least once with two other all-stars (McHale and Parish).

Edit: In 84 he won it with Parish and McHale being all stars. In 85 he won it with Parish and Johnson as all stars. And 86 he had McHale and Parish again. So, yeah...they did have the best record all three years. But the #1 overall record will be determined.

Yes, but he also had the top spot in the conference and he had already won a title as well.

JordansBulls
03-10-2012, 08:53 PM
Well, you didn't prove him wrong. LeBron never had championship teams in his career in Cleveland. Let's be real he never had talents (As a Cav) MJ, Magic, Russell, Bird, Duncan, Shaq, Kobe have had in their respective careers, Not EVEN CLOSE. Who the **** is gonna win a championship with a role player Mo-Willams as your second best player? I don't care what ESPN predicted because they were plain wrong. I have a ****ing brain, I know the history, and I know what it takes to win it all. LeBron should only be blamed for last years. What he did with those Cavs scrubs, NO ONE in the history of basketball could replicate except probably Micheal Jordan.

Except lose to teams he should have beaten. Orlando wasn't to come out of the East over Cleveland, so he lost to a team he should have beaten. Now maybe he should not have beaten the Lakers, but he certainly should have beaten the Magic especially with Rafer and Lee as the backcourt.

ManRam
03-10-2012, 08:54 PM
Yes, but he also had the top spot in the conference and he had already won a title as well.

And that has to do with LeBron's play this season...how? And that has to do with Bird's play that season...how?


These are all trivial IMO. I don't care. :laugh2: He's the best player by a wider margin than the league has seen in the past decade. A #1 seed should happen, and maybe if he misses out on that by 3-4 games I'll consider voting for someone else, but right now no team has fewer losses than them. I'll worry about that when it comes around...and that only player would be KD. However, I'd even struggle with that because KD has as much talent around him, and he's not the complete player LeBron is...

b@llhog24
03-10-2012, 08:57 PM
Yes, but he also had the top spot in the conference and he had already won a title as well.

What to say why you ignored the main points of his post when he replied to you?

ManRam
03-10-2012, 09:01 PM
Except lose to teams he should have beaten. Orlando wasn't to come out of the East over Cleveland, so he lost to a team he should have beaten. Now maybe he should not have beaten the Lakers, but he certainly should have beaten the Magic especially with Rafer and Lee as the backcourt.

His team lost to a team they should have beaten. Sure, he's their best player and got all the credit for the wins, and maybe he should get it when they lose. But in this case, it was so far from his fault it's not even funny.

I'm pretty sure he shot 49% that series. Pretty sure he averaged 38.5 points, 8 assists, and 8.33 rebounds in that series. Pretty sure he hit buzzer beaters. Pretty sure his teammates shot something like 25% from three.

I mean, clearly he didn't do all he could ;) They definitely had an answer for Dwight. The Magic definitely didn't play the best basketball they possibly could. Definitely all LeBron's fault!

JordansBulls
03-10-2012, 09:06 PM
His team lost to a team they should have beaten. Sure, he's their best player and got all the credit for the wins, and maybe he should get it when they lose. But in this case, it was so far from his fault it's not even funny.

I'm pretty sure he shot 49% that series. Pretty sure he averaged 38.5 points, 8 assists, and 8.33 rebounds in that series. Pretty sure he hit buzzer beaters. Pretty sure his teammates shot something like 25% from three.

I mean, clearly he didn't do all he could ;) They definitely had an answer for Dwight. The Magic definitely didn't play the best basketball they possibly could. Definitely all LeBron's fault!

Those guys didn't play well because they hardly ever had the ball. If you go back and watch the series vs Orlando you will hear Doug Collins mentioning how Lebron has the ball in his hands 16-18 seconds every possession. Your teammmates aren't going to perform well when that happens. And Dwight's cast was equally as bad.

Orlando made the finals with the worst backcourt of all time. How the hell do you make the finals with Rafer Alston and Courtney Lee (a rookie) as your starting backcourt?

People talk about Lebron's cast, but then fail to mention the cast Dwight had in 2009. Rafer and Lee was his starting backcourt. When they went to New Jersey that team won 12 games. Rashard Lewis was his PF and now on the Wizards with a franchise player in Wall that team has won like 13 games now. And then Hedo was on the Raptors and Suns and had absolutely no impact.
When you put it together Dwight's lineup was Rafer, Lee, Hedo, Lewis

Realistically who were the contenders in 2009?

Lakers obviously but outside of them, not reallly anyone else as Manu was out for San Antonio, tmac/Yao for the Rockets, KG for the Celtics and Nelson for the Magic.


Also Orlando was doing this without their star pg in Nelson who was the 2nd best player on the team. Cleveland lost 2 games at home this year and really only 1 as the last game of the year none of the starters played. And think of it, they still took the 6th seed to OT with not one starter playing.


It's amazing Orlando won with that backcourt and won missing it's 2nd best player. I thought Orlando would lose in 4 or 5 with how good Cleveland was doing and how much Orlando struggled with Philly and a KG less Celtics. I thought Orlando only had a chance to take it 7 with a healthy Jameer.


I don't what hear about someone not having a good supporting cast when they had the best record in the league and broke a record in the playoffs winning it's first 8 games by 10+ points each game.

ManRam
03-10-2012, 09:16 PM
Those guys didn't play well because they hardly ever had the ball. If you go back and watch the series vs Orlando you will hear Doug Collins mentioning how Lebron has the ball in his hands 16-18 seconds every possession. Your teammmates aren't going to perform well when that happens. And Dwight's cast was equally as bad.

Orlando made the finals with the worst backcourt of all time. How the hell do you make the finals with Rafer Alston and Courtney Lee (a rookie) as your starting backcourt?

People talk about Lebron's cast, but then fail to mention the cast Dwight had in 2009. Rafer and Lee was his starting backcourt. When they went to New Jersey that team won 12 games. Rashard Lewis was his PF and now on the Wizards with a franchise player in Wall that team has won like 13 games now. And then Hedo was on the Raptors and Suns and had absolutely no impact.
When you put it together Dwight's lineup was Rafer, Lee, Hedo, Lewis

Realistically who were the contenders in 2009?

Lakers obviously but outside of them, not reallly anyone else as Manu was out for San Antonio, tmac/Yao for the Rockets, KG for the Celtics and Nelson for the Magic.


Also Orlando was doing this without their star pg in Nelson who was the 2nd best player on the team. Cleveland lost 2 games at home this year and really only 1 as the last game of the year none of the starters played. And think of it, they still took the 6th seed to OT with not one starter playing.


It's amazing Orlando won with that backcourt and won missing it's 2nd best player. I thought Orlando would lose in 4 or 5 with how good Cleveland was doing and how much Orlando struggled with Philly and a KG less Celtics. I thought Orlando only had a chance to take it 7 with a healthy Jameer.


I don't what hear about someone not having a good supporting cast when they had the best record in the league and broke a record in the playoffs winning it's first 8 games by 10+ points each game.

I don't disagree...but again, I don't think any of this proves that he had a good cast...if anything, them losing to the Magic in spite of LeBron playing great shows they were an awful cast. For once in his career he may have been too selfish that series. Oh well. He's as unselfish as any star in the NBA. They missed open shot after open shot that series. I remember vividly. We didn't. We

He feasted on perhaps the weakest Eastern Conference ever. He was able to rack up the wins because of that. Meanwhile the beasts out West were beating up on each other.


I agree, they shouldn't have lost to Orlando...OK. That's fine. But I don't think that proves that he's a huge of a failure as you think. Plenty of greats have lost series they "shouldn't" have. If the best team always won, why would they play?


I don't know. I think he WAS that team. I really do. I think it kinda is like Dwight now (not in 2009...he had multiple all-stars and elite shooters and actually a few good defenders). He had a cast that was tailored to his needs...but still not really all that good.

I will never back down on my stance that no player in today's NBA could have done more with that team than he did. So, with that in mind, I'll get hard on him now that he has a team, but I can't fault him for not winning with a cast as bad as he had, and a cast that no star player ever has won a ring with. No star that I can remember ever has won a ring with less or as little help :shrug: You can break down every player, but how about you just name me a team and a star that did so.

naps
03-10-2012, 09:45 PM
I'd give up. JB thinks Shaq was still a great player who could play more than 20 minutes a game in the playoffs. He thinks Ben Wallace was still a force. He thinks Mo Williams was a worthy sidekick. He thinks Z was hitting his peak when LeBron was. He probably thinks Mike Brown is a good coach. He probably thinks those shooters didn't miss like every shot they took in the biggest playoff series...

None of these are true. He just hates the man and that's why he acts like a 3rd grader but I am sure he knows he trolls when it comes down to LeBron.




I love you naps

:love:



Except lose to teams he should have beaten. Orlando wasn't to come out of the East over Cleveland, so he lost to a team he should have beaten. Now maybe he should not have beaten the Lakers, but he certainly should have beaten the Magic especially with Rafer and Lee as the backcourt.

Except a player himself can't beat a team in a seven game series. A player single-handedly can win a game here and there but in order to beat a team in a playoffs series you have to have your teammates to step it up. LeBron's teammates were all role players who were not talented enough to step it up in the playoffs. It's not his fault. And don't tell me HE should have beaten. That sounds very stupid in a team sports. LeBron had a monster series and one of the most dominant series ever individually but that still wasn't enough for his team to get past the Magic because his teams were not good enough talent and they sucked harder than ever. How's that his fault again JB? Think rationally man. Did Russell, Magic, Bird, Jordan, Shaq, Duncan, Kobe win with someone like Mo-Williams as their second best player? There it is.

Blitzbolt
03-10-2012, 09:50 PM
Lebron ..............and if you don't think so your on drugs..........and should give me some.

naps
03-10-2012, 09:52 PM
Lebron ..............and if you don't think so your on drugs..........and should give me some.

Contact JB. PM him.

ghettosean
03-10-2012, 10:43 PM
I do think that what I said is true...

And nothing you say is not true. We just disagree on the most important criteria.

Yes, he now plays on a great team...but so have many other MVP winners. He has a top 5 player, and he has another top 15-20 player too. But he's the life force of that team. He's the guy who can beat you by scoring, passing, or doing neither. He'll do what it takes. He'll defend your PG if he has to, and he'll defend your center if he has to as well. He'll shoot the ball 10 times to win, or he'll shoot it 30 times if he has to. He's so versatile and so fluid. He's not the best defender in the league, but hands down he's the most versatile.

I really think your argument here is the only one that can be used against him, and in my opinion, that's too frivolous. I don't care. He's the best player, and he's the most valuable player...at least in my interpretation of those two words. He might not be more valuable to his team, but he's more valuable to any team than any other player.

For whatever reason they don't have the best record, be it effort, be it injuries, be whatever, it has nothing to do with his play. They aren't a perfect team. We know their weaknesses, and they exist. But it takes a TEAM to be great, not just three players. Their expectations are sky high, so maybe if they don't live up to them then I'll struggle more to give it to them. But with no other team in the league with more losses than them, I'm not going to knock their team's play much and use it against him.


He's playing the best basketball we've seen in perhaps a decade plus. He's worth more wins, statistically or subjectively, than any player has been worth in quite some time. That gap between him and the next best player is too big for me to worry about semantics. :shrug: And I do think a lot of this rhetoric is semantics.
Probably shouldn't have used the phrase... "If this is true" as if your lying... LOL.

My bad but you get my point and I get yours :)

I didn't even read your full response just the first sentence and I just wanted to apologize for that initial comment.

ghettosean
03-10-2012, 11:28 PM
I do think that what I said is true...

And nothing you say is not true. We just disagree on the most important criteria.

Yes, he now plays on a great team...but so have many other MVP winners. He has a top 5 player, and he has another top 15-20 player too. But he's the life force of that team. He's the guy who can beat you by scoring, passing, or doing neither. He'll do what it takes. He'll defend your PG if he has to, and he'll defend your center if he has to as well. He'll shoot the ball 10 times to win, or he'll shoot it 30 times if he has to. He's so versatile and so fluid. He's not the best defender in the league, but hands down he's the most versatile.

I really think your argument here is the only one that can be used against him, and in my opinion, that's too frivolous. I don't care. He's the best player, and he's the most valuable player...at least in my interpretation of those two words. He might not be more valuable to his team, but he's more valuable to any team than any other player.

For whatever reason they don't have the best record, be it effort, be it injuries, be whatever, it has nothing to do with his play. They aren't a perfect team. We know their weaknesses, and they exist. But it takes a TEAM to be great, not just three players. Their expectations are sky high, so maybe if they don't live up to them then I'll struggle more to give it to them. But with no other team in the league with more losses than them, I'm not going to knock their team's play much and use it against him.


He's playing the best basketball we've seen in perhaps a decade plus. He's worth more wins, statistically or subjectively, than any player has been worth in quite some time. That gap between him and the next best player is too big for me to worry about semantics. :shrug: And I do think a lot of this rhetoric is semantics.

Ok so I did read the rest of the post and I agree that me saying the heat should be the best in the east is really the only argument I can use but I don't think it's a frivolous argument/point I think it's quite valid. If you look at when Nash won MVP 2 years in a row he didn't win it for being head and shoulders above the rest because he was playing great and had his team exceeded expectations. One of the years he won it he had Amare out for a nice chunk of the season and he still had his team up there in the rankings not by himself but it was clear that he was the leader of that team and the reason for them overcoming the odds.

I know people will get on me for this but I don't know who the leader of the multiple all star team is... D-Wade or Bron?!? I think Wade but people will argue that point with me but that's another factor in the MVP race because I think everyone can agree if you look over the years the MVP has always been the leader of that team.

I mean if you want to make the argument on stats and MVP talk well when Nash won in 05-06 Marion had a better PER than Nash but we all know why Nash won and why Marion wasn't even considered over him. It was clear who the leader was on that team and well if Nash went down on that squad there is no way in hell that they would be 2nd in the west which is why he won. If Lebron goes down I see that team being where they are right now in the regular season standings.

I think the heat are just meeting expectations and with what they have I honestly think they should be ahead of Chicago with the talent they have. I mean if they are predicted to win the title this season them winning the east isn't that huge of an expectation. I see some posters on here talking about it just about individual play but the team and situation does and should play a role as well as Nash was never in the top 10 in PER when he won his back to back MVPs.

Statistics played a part but was not the deciding factor for Nash and others before that why should this be any different?

justinnum1
03-11-2012, 12:06 AM
^Still arguing against lebron? :laugh2:



Lebron separates himself a little more from the pack tonight:)

ghettosean
03-11-2012, 12:11 AM
^Still arguing against lebron? :laugh2:



Lebron separates himself a little more from the pack tonight:)
I wouldn't call it arguing I would just say I'm saying what it takes to be the Most Valueable Player. He currently is my candidate for the MVS though.

Most Valuable Stats award ;)

justinnum1
03-11-2012, 12:14 AM
:rolleyes:

i love reading the reasons why people dont think he's mvp, i get a good laugh from them

ghettosean
03-11-2012, 12:18 AM
:rolleyes:

i love reading the reasons why people dont think he's mvp, i get a good laugh from them
I like how you ignore facts from previous winners of the award so a member of your team can run away with an easy freebee ;)

MVP is not based solely on stats but if it is please state an example not that I don't like seeing your witty remarks but I like facts :)

justinnum1
03-11-2012, 12:20 AM
I like how you ignore facts from previous winners of the award so a member of your team can run away with an easy freebee ;)

MVP is not based solely on stats but if it is please state an example not that I don't like seeing your witty remarks but I like facts :)

OK, lets say best player on best team...well heat are tied for best record in the league, and i think a historic PER is a decent tie breaker;)

ghettosean
03-11-2012, 12:39 AM
If they have the best record in the end I think Lebron will run away with it if not I don't think he should win MVP for the reasons I stated in my earlier post above in comparisons to other winners of the award before now.

naps
03-11-2012, 12:51 AM
LeBron is way too good. He was having an off-night and still finished with 27-4-8 and was unbelievably clutch.

lavilevi23
03-11-2012, 01:42 AM
:rolleyes:

i love reading the reasons why people dont think he's mvp, i get a good laugh from them

LOL me 2

Chronz
03-11-2012, 02:33 AM
Bron didn't have the better players vs Dwight or Boston.

Look at how dominant Dwight looked against an injured Ben Wallace and aging Big Z. Meanwhile look how mortal Dwight looked against every other team that year, hell didn't they win a playoff game without Dwight? Nobody gives Mo Williams the kind of money they threw at Shard. Bron was amazing that series, even Magic said as much.

JordansBulls
03-11-2012, 09:24 AM
If they have the best record in the end I think Lebron will run away with it if not I don't think he should win MVP for the reasons I stated in my earlier post above in comparisons to other winners of the award before now.

This. Only way he doesn't get it is that they want Durant to get it for taking the Thunder from a #4 seed to a #1 seed.

JordansBulls
03-11-2012, 09:28 AM
Bron didn't have the better players vs Dwight or Boston.

Look at how dominant Dwight looked against an injured Ben Wallace and aging Big Z. Meanwhile look how mortal Dwight looked against every other team that year, hell didn't they win a playoff game without Dwight? Nobody gives Mo Williams the kind of money they threw at Shard. Bron was amazing that series, even Magic said as much.

Keep telling yourself that. He had proven players and winners while Orlando had nothing.

dodie53
03-11-2012, 09:41 AM
lbj

ChiSoxJuan
03-11-2012, 11:31 AM
If you doubt both the value of record & style in the equation then list the yrs when stats beat a player drawing the most attention in the league on a team with the best record. If your list is empty or short, then STFU!

theheatles
03-11-2012, 12:14 PM
If you doubt both the value of record & style in the equation then list the yrs when stats beat a player drawing the most attention in the league on a team with the best record. If your list is empty or short, then STFU!

well first of all, style is completely objective so stop talking about it like LeBron doesn't have a case for "style"

secondly the bulls or thunder would need a substantially better record than the heat for LeBron not to win it ( ala bron vs wade in 08-09), because LeBrons stats blows everyone out of the water

and lastly, who draws more attention than LeBron?

naps
03-11-2012, 12:48 PM
Keep telling yourself that. He had proven players and winners while Orlando had nothing.

:facepalm::facepalm:

That team minus LeBron = Number 1 overall draft pick.

Worst record and worst team on the planet. No player in the history of basketball could take that team to better than 7th seed. LeBron is just godly good. He's heavenly. You are a jealous Bulls homer who's hating on him simply because he ended Bulls dream two years in a row and didn't choose your Bulls.

tredigs
03-11-2012, 01:05 PM
:facepalm::facepalm:

That team minus LeBron = Number 1 overall draft pick.

Worst record and worst team on the planet. No player in the history of basketball could take that team to better than 7th seed. LeBron is just godly good. He's heavenly. You are a jealous Bulls homer who's hating on him simply because he ended Bulls dream two years in a row and didn't choose your Bulls.

Well, this is just flat wrong.

It's possible to overrate Lebron, and right now you're doing it. You're saying that "no player in NBA history could take that team to a 7 seed" when a rookie currently has a similar roster (minus their 2nd best player Mo Williams) as the 10 seed.

I would agree that there's only a small handful of players that could have taken that Cavs team to the 1 seed like Lebron did, but they're out there. 7th seed, though??? Roughly 250-300 players who could do that. Maybe more. This is the east we're talking about.

Lebron at this stage is not the greatest player of all time. He's not even close really. Most talented, maybe. But he still does seem to lack that VERY critical over-the-top killer instinct that most GOAT candidates had (Wilt being the exception).

Chronz
03-11-2012, 01:16 PM
Bron didn't have the better players vs Dwight or Boston.

Look at how dominant Dwight looked against an injured Ben Wallace and aging Big Z. Meanwhile look how mortal Dwight looked against every other team that year, hell didn't they win a playoff game without Dwight? Nobody gives Mo Williams the kind of money they threw at Shard. Bron was amazing that series, even Magic said as much.

Keep telling yourself that. He had proven players and winners while Orlando had nothing.
Proven winners dont help you if they are proven to be past their prime and injured.

Orlando having nothing is a lie

kozelkid
03-11-2012, 04:50 PM
Keep telling yourself that. He had proven players and winners while Orlando had nothing.

JB, when you're the only one who subscribes to the asinine statement that the corpses of Wallace and Big Z were difference makers while ignoring Jameer Nelson, Turkoglu and Lewis who were significantly better at that time, then you're the one who clearly is telling yourself.

But wait, I know your agenda. You'll just keep saying this until you aggravate someone enough and then slyly report their post and get them banned. You've done this plenty of times. And it's pathetic that you're THIS petty against certain players and troll in this matter.

/rant

Iodine
03-11-2012, 05:09 PM
JB, when you're the only one who subscribes to the asinine statement that the corpses of Wallace and Big Z were difference makers while ignoring Jameer Nelson, Turkoglu and Lewis who were significantly better at that time, then you're the one who clearly is telling yourself.

But wait, I know your agenda. You'll just keep saying this until you aggravate someone enough and then slyly report their post and get them banned. You've done this plenty of times. And it's pathetic that you're THIS petty against certain players and troll in this matter.

/rant

Winrar

JordansBulls
03-11-2012, 05:47 PM
JB, when you're the only one who subscribes to the asinine statement that the corpses of Wallace and Big Z were difference makers while ignoring Jameer Nelson, Turkoglu and Lewis who were significantly better at that time, then you're the one who clearly is telling yourself.

But wait, I know your agenda. You'll just keep saying this until you aggravate someone enough and then slyly report their post and get them banned. You've done this plenty of times. And it's pathetic that you're THIS petty against certain players and troll in this matter.

/rant

Except the facts are there and the evidence of who was the favorite.

In fact not one analyst even said Orlando nor Boston would beat Cleveland those years.

And you are forgetting that Nelson didn't even play a game in that series. So like I said, the Cavs had more experience overall as well. In fact Orlando hadn't even been out of the first round prior to the 2009 season, so it was clearly and upset.

http://forums.prosportsdaily.com/showpost.php?p=21276067&postcount=75


The next season Cleveland came into the season as the favorites at least in the East and won 11 more games than Boston and got upset even though Shaq showed up when the series was tied 2-2.

justinnum1
03-11-2012, 05:56 PM
^doesnt change the fact that lebron is in the lead for MVP and most likely will win his 3rd:)

Also, please stop going off topic about previous years

JordansBulls
03-11-2012, 06:05 PM
^doesnt change the fact that lebron is in the lead for MVP and most likely will win his 3rd:)

Also, please stop going off topic about previous years

Actually CHANGO a Heat poster is who went about talking about previous years about the help Lebron had so I responded and showed what the predictions were at the time.

northsider
03-11-2012, 07:00 PM
:facepalm::facepalm:

That team minus LeBron = Number 1 overall draft pick.

Worst record and worst team on the planet. No player in the history of basketball could take that team to better than 7th seed. LeBron is just godly good. He's heavenly. You are a jealous Bulls homer who's hating on him simply because he ended Bulls dream two years in a row and didn't choose your Bulls.

hahahahahahah JB is pretty crazy but, this post makes you look just as ridiculous and quite the hypocrite to call him a homer then go on to say this.

naps
03-11-2012, 09:13 PM
Guys I guess I went too far with that 7th seed comment. That part (No player in the history of basketball could take that team to better than 7th seed. LeBron is just godly good. He's heavenly) was meant to be a rant but I guess some of you didn't get it. Re-read the post and go back last couple of pages to read JB's ridiculousness. I was letting it out there for him. But my bad I'll be more straight forward with my rants next time.

naps
03-11-2012, 09:14 PM
JB, when you're the only one who subscribes to the asinine statement that the corpses of Wallace and Big Z were difference makers while ignoring Jameer Nelson, Turkoglu and Lewis who were significantly better at that time, then you're the one who clearly is telling yourself.

But wait, I know your agenda. You'll just keep saying this until you aggravate someone enough and then slyly report their post and get them banned. You've done this plenty of times. And it's pathetic that you're THIS petty against certain players and troll in this matter.

/rant

Thank you Kozel. His agenda is pretty clear.

JordansBulls
03-11-2012, 09:22 PM
Thank you Kozel. His agenda is pretty clear.

Yes the agenda is pretty clear it supports who was the favorite and who was to win the East between Orlando and Cleveland that season here are the articles, the expert predictions, the feelings even after the series as well and the production of the players on both sides. Prove me wrong. Show me articles stating that Orlando was the favorite and had more talent than Cleveland that season and in the playoffs when Jameer missed the entire series.

http://forums.prosportsdaily.com/showpost.php?p=21276067&postcount=75

http://forums.prosportsdaily.com/showpost.php?p=21291856&postcount=143

ManRam
03-11-2012, 09:28 PM
I don't know if I agree that no player in the history of the NBA could have carried them to higher than a 7 seed, but I whole-heartedly think that no player in the history of the NBA could have led them to a one seed (or do it multiple times) and I most certainly don't think any other star has won a ring with as weak of a cast as what he had. That last part is why I don't get too caught up on him not winning rings there. That is why I'm starting to care a lot more that he isn't winning rings now. He finally has a team that Kobe, Jordan, Bird, Magic etc. know what it's like to have.

It's almost like JB, in my opinion, is faulting him for making that team so good, and then not winning because he made them so good. I guess that's kinda fair (not really), but it's only fair if you realize how unprecedented it would have been for him to win with any of those Cleveland teams. No top 10 player ever would have done it with that weak of a cast...so it's basically expecting the unexpected.

theheatles
03-11-2012, 09:49 PM
JB, when you're the only one who subscribes to the asinine statement that the corpses of Wallace and Big Z were difference makers while ignoring Jameer Nelson, Turkoglu and Lewis who were significantly better at that time, then you're the one who clearly is telling yourself.

But wait, I know your agenda. You'll just keep saying this until you aggravate someone enough and then slyly report their post and get them banned. You've done this plenty of times. And it's pathetic that you're THIS petty against certain players and troll in this matter.

/rant

bull fan on bull fan attack...i love it

tredigs
03-11-2012, 10:00 PM
I don't know if I agree that no player in the history of the NBA could have carried them to higher than a 7 seed, but I whole-heartedly think that no player in the history of the NBA could have led them to a one seed (or do it multiple times) and I most certainly don't think any other star has won a ring with as weak of a cast as what he had. That last part is why I don't get too caught up on him not winning rings there. That is why I'm starting to care a lot more that he isn't winning rings now. He finally has a team that Kobe, Jordan, Bird, Magic etc. know what it's like to have.

It's almost like JB, in my opinion, is faulting him for making that team so good, and then not winning because he made them so good. I guess that's kinda fair (not really), but it's only fair if you realize how unprecedented it would have been for him to win with any of those Cleveland teams. No top 10 player ever would have done it with that weak of a cast...so it's basically expecting the unexpected.

He mentioned after he was just ranting and not being literal there. That team was very solid defensively, there's probably 15-20 players in the NBA NOW that would earn the 7 seed with that cast in that East.

But I actually disagree about the 1 seed part too; Jordan, Wilt, Shaq, Kareem, Olajuwon, maybe Magic and Bird at their apex could lead that squad to a 1 seed. A handful of others could potentially do it or come close as well, but it's definitely a short list. What he did there was insane and under appreciated by a lot of people.

JB you put a lot of stock into peoples projected rankings of teams without taking into account that LEBRON is the particular reason why his teams are consistently projected to be the 1 seed. Think about it, if he was on the Bucks this year instead of the Heat, the Bucks would have been projected as the 1 seed. Same goes for the Pacers. Same goes for the Raptors, etc. The projected 1 seed is simply the team prime Lebron is on, nothing else.

stawka
03-11-2012, 10:07 PM
JB... Do you believe your own bull****? (serious question)

ManRam
03-11-2012, 10:28 PM
He mentioned after he was just ranting and not being literal there. That team was very solid defensively, there's probably 15-20 players in the NBA NOW that would earn the 7 seed with that cast in that East.

But I actually disagree about the 1 seed part too; Jordan, Wilt, Shaq, Kareem, Olajuwon, maybe Magic and Bird at their apex could lead that squad to a 1 seed. A handful of others could potentially do it or come close as well, but it's definitely a short list. What he did there was insane and under appreciated by a lot of people.

JB you put a lot of stock into peoples projected rankings of teams without taking into account that LEBRON is the particular reason why his teams are consistently projected to be the 1 seed. Think about it, if he was on the Bucks this year instead of the Heat, the Bucks would have been projected as the 1 seed. Same goes for the Pacers. Same goes for the Raptors, etc. The projected 1 seed is simply the team prime Lebron is on, nothing else.

They might have been able to, but we'll never know because they never did it, nor did they have to try to do it.

The last paragraph I agree with 100%. Since he didn't live up to expectations he failed. Period. And that's silly logic. JB generally does a good job of not letting petty stuff like ESPN's predictions cloud objectivity...but he's not doing a good job of that here IMO. They were so good because of him...and if that ultimately is what JB is using to fault LeBron, well, that's twisted.

JordansBulls
03-11-2012, 11:06 PM
I don't know if I agree that no player in the history of the NBA could have carried them to higher than a 7 seed, but I whole-heartedly think that no player in the history of the NBA could have led them to a one seed (or do it multiple times) and I most certainly don't think any other star has won a ring with as weak of a cast as what he had. That last part is why I don't get too caught up on him not winning rings there. That is why I'm starting to care a lot more that he isn't winning rings now. He finally has a team that Kobe, Jordan, Bird, Magic etc. know what it's like to have.

It's almost like JB, in my opinion, is faulting him for making that team so good, and then not winning because he made them so good. I guess that's kinda fair (not really), but it's only fair if you realize how unprecedented it would have been for him to win with any of those Cleveland teams. No top 10 player ever would have done it with that weak of a cast...so it's basically expecting the unexpected.

Not faulting him for that, I'm faulting him for not beating a team he was supposed to beat which was Orlando. Cleveland was more proven and had the better star, better record, higher SRS rating, Higher Expected W-L Ratio as well and was favorite by EVERY ANALYST over Orlando.

JordansBulls
03-11-2012, 11:08 PM
JB... Do you believe your own bull****? (serious question)

Provide articles and predictions and evidence that Cleveland was not the favorite such as the post below. http://forums.prosportsdaily.com/showpost.php?p=21276067&postcount=75

JordansBulls
03-11-2012, 11:10 PM
He mentioned after he was just ranting and not being literal there. That team was very solid defensively, there's probably 15-20 players in the NBA NOW that would earn the 7 seed with that cast in that East.

But I actually disagree about the 1 seed part too; Jordan, Wilt, Shaq, Kareem, Olajuwon, maybe Magic and Bird at their apex could lead that squad to a 1 seed. A handful of others could potentially do it or come close as well, but it's definitely a short list. What he did there was insane and under appreciated by a lot of people.

JB you put a lot of stock into peoples projected rankings of teams without taking into account that LEBRON is the particular reason why his teams are consistently projected to be the 1 seed. Think about it, if he was on the Bucks this year instead of the Heat, the Bucks would have been projected as the 1 seed. Same goes for the Pacers. Same goes for the Raptors, etc. The projected 1 seed is simply the team prime Lebron is on, nothing else.

Disagree, this was a guy who has two bronze medals. If any team he went to would get the #1 seed, then why the hell would he have bronze medals with superstars on his team?

How come it is soo difficult for you guys to provide articles or anything saying the Cavs were not the favorite over Orlando or Boston in 2009 or 2010 like I have done?

JordansBulls
03-11-2012, 11:13 PM
They might have been able to, but we'll never know because they never did it, nor did they have to try to do it.

The last paragraph I agree with 100%. Since he didn't live up to expectations he failed. Period. And that's silly logic. JB generally does a good job of not letting petty stuff like ESPN's predictions cloud objectivity...but he's not doing a good job of that here IMO. They were so good because of him...and if that ultimately is what JB is using to fault LeBron, well, that's twisted.

Using a varitey of predictions such as every analyst saying the Cavs were favorite, the Cavs being predicted as having the best record in the league, winning the East and also having the best SRS rating and expected W-L ratio as well. The SRS rating is the thing you can't deny because they had a better one than the team that beat them in the playoffs in 2009 and 2010. If you aren't going to blame Lebron for losing to teams he should have beaten in the playoffs as the favorite, then why should guys like Bird or Shaq get the blame as well?

Chronz
03-12-2012, 12:32 AM
I agree that no other superstar could have gotten so much out of so little like he did in Cleveland. Bron was like the ultimate swiss army knife for cleveland. If Mo went out, he played the PG and won 10 straight our whatever, when Ben broke his foot he anchored the D in his absence.

Ovratd1up
03-12-2012, 02:44 AM
Yes. Extremely glad to see his services finally being fully appreciated by some. In my opinion, he's much better than just the best player in the league at the moment.

ghettosean
03-12-2012, 07:05 AM
I agree that no other superstar could have gotten so much out of so little like he did in Cleveland. Bron was like the ultimate swiss army knife for cleveland. If Mo went out, he played the PG and won 10 straight our whatever, when Ben broke his foot he anchored the D in his absence.
I disagree I think Wade who I believe is the leader on the Miami Heat team could have done that I mean he got a team where his best players were Jermaine Oneal and Beasley (I think that was also the year Beasley went to rehab for pot addiction and he barely played for the team) and Wade got them to be a 5th seed in the playoffs 2009-2010 season. I think he would have dropped dead for a Mo Williams and Antwan Jamison on his team... Don't you? Who really did more with less?

Again 2 of the top 3 players in the league team up and bring another top 15 player on board with them and you guys want one of them to be MVP :pity:

Considering 2009-2010 season I think Wade could have got this record with just Bosh and some free agents taking the money paid to Lebron. Excuse me but I'm not impressed...

theheatles
03-12-2012, 09:16 AM
Disagree, this was a guy who has two bronze medals. If any team he went to would get the #1 seed, then why the hell would he have bronze medals with superstars on his team?

How come it is soo difficult for you guys to provide articles or anything saying the Cavs were not the favorite over Orlando or Boston in 2009 or 2010 like I have done?

well 1st of all LeBron was 19 when he won the 1st Bronze (what was MJ doing at 19, oh yeah, getting snubbed off the SI cover by Dean Smith) and the last 2 times LeBron competed in international competition he walked away with gold.

cavs were the favorites because media members had to make the cavs the favorites, it was chalk, naturally the higher seed would be favored before the series begins...the bulls were favored over the heat last yr by more analysts, off the top of my head; chuck, chris webber, kenny smith, ric bucher, jon barry, wilbon and magic all picked the bulls...so i guess rose can join the "failure at life" club with LeBron

ghettosean
03-12-2012, 09:29 AM
well 1st of all LeBron was 19 when he won the 1st Bronze (what was MJ doing at 19, oh yeah, getting snubbed off the SI cover by Dean Smith) and the last 2 times LeBron competed in international competition he walked away with gold.

cavs were the favorites because media members had to make the cavs the favorites, it was chalk, naturally the higher seed would be favored before the series begins...the bulls were favored over the heat last yr by more analysts, off the top of my head; chuck, chris webber, kenny smith, ric bucher, jon barry, wilbon and magic all picked the bulls...so i guess rose can join the "failure at life" club with LeBron

Really because I remember everyone including Las Vegas odds IN ALL CASINOS immediately picking Miami to win before they even had 1 practice and I also don't remember anyone hyping the bulls preseason saying they would be a #1 seed or win a title that year just saying Rose deserved MVP that year and got a better record. No one favoured the Bulls or the Mavs over the heat last year people were just hoping they could put up a fight to my recollection but say whatever you want to bash any other players not named Lebron, Wade or Bosh.

theheatles
03-12-2012, 09:32 AM
Really because I remember everyone including Las Vegas odds IN ALL CASINOS immediately picking Miami to win before they even had 1 practice and I also don't remember anyone hyping the bulls preseason saying they would be a #1 seed or win a title that year just saying Rose deserved MVP that year and got a better record. No one favoured the Bulls or the Mavs over the heat last year people were just hoping they could put up a fight to my recollection but say whatever you want to bash any other players not named Lebron, Wade or Bosh.

before game 1 of the ECF more analysts picked the bulls I promise you, the TNT cast had a clean sweep of picking the bulls right before tip off of game 1...obv the heat were favored by vegas, they had to be, vegas makes odds based on how they think the public will bet

then after miami spanked the bulls, only jon barry and chuck picked the mavs

and thanks for pointing out you can't even remember what went down before the series and i can pretty much assume you're just a SC highlight fan

ghettosean
03-12-2012, 09:34 AM
before game 1 of the ECF more analysts picked the bulls I promise you, the TNT cast had a clean sweep of picking the bulls right before tip off of game 1...obv the heat were favored by vegas, they had to be, vegas makes odds based on how they think the public will bet

So then you agree that the heat were favourites going into that series by most people then... Ok just checking :)

theheatles
03-12-2012, 09:39 AM
So then you agree that the heat were favourites going into that series by most people then... Ok just checking :)

yeah, most bettors took the heat, but not the paid analysts...more "expert" analysts took the bulls...if you can't comprehend, hooked on phonics is for you

P.S. i saw you have LeBron as 4th in the mvp order, can you make another ignoramus statement stating your order so i can sig quote it to spread your stupidity more quickly, thanks

basketfan4life
03-12-2012, 09:46 AM
i clearly remember, even lebron was saying i want boston in the playoffs i'm gonna go old school on them...Not keeping promises, that defines lebron.

ghettosean
03-12-2012, 09:47 AM
yeah, most bettors took the heat, but not the paid analysts...more "expert" analysts took the bulls...if you can't comprehend, hooked on phonics is for you
I guess the analysts in Vegas just didn't listen to the overwhelming amount of "expert" analysts that beleived Chicago would just run away with that series then.

Some believed Chicago would win just like some think they can beat the heat this year but the Majority is still going with the heat lets not kid ourselves here.

Lebron also said after he beat Boston last year (immediately after) that his team overcame the biggest hurrdle to win an NBA championship all heat fans should remember this and stop saying Chicago was favoured over Miami even Lebron himself favoured them over Chicago.

SERIOUSLY THIS IS GETTING EMBARASSING!

ghettosean
03-12-2012, 09:48 AM
.... Double post sorry.

justinnum1
03-12-2012, 11:08 AM
All the hate aside. Bron still in MVP lead and by a comfortable margin :)

ghettosean
03-12-2012, 11:50 AM
I have him winning MVS by a wide margin ;)

Most Valueable Stats award!!!

MVP isn't soley based on stats if you are forgetting that or need me to post the reasons on past winners of the awards...

Again!

I will gladly do so for you :)

ManRam
03-12-2012, 11:59 AM
I have him winning MVS by a wide margin ;)

Most Valueable Stats award!!!

MVP isn't soley based on stats if you are forgetting that or need me to post the reasons on past winners of the awards...

Again!

I will gladly do so for you :)

I don't disagree. There's much more than just stats. That's why Rose won it last year, that's why Nash has two, etc.

The Bulls don't have "the story" this year. The Thunder's expectations are to finish #1 in the West, so it's hard to exceed that. LAL is failing to live up to expectations...as are the Clippers now. There's just not another great story out there to steal it from the best player...especially when that best player is playing at a level that is so far ahead of his competitors.

It's more than LeBron just having the best stats IMO...it's that he's playing at a level so much higher than the rest of the league that it's impossible to ignore. We just haven't see the gap from #1 to #2 this big in a very long time...

So, with the lack of other stories and other great candidates, unless the Heat don't finish with a great record, it's hard to justify giving it to someone else.

ManRam
03-12-2012, 12:01 PM
http://espn.go.com/nba/playoffs/2011/matchup/_/teams/heat-bulls

And I know that's just ESPN, but I don't remember the vast majority of people picking the Bulls...it was close, for sure, but the Heat were favored. Hell, you can discount Wilbon's vote because not only is his knowledge of the NBA so weak, but he's a huge Bulls fan. Haberstroh picking the Heat too means little.

And again, I don't get why expectations really mean anything. Who cares? What does it prove?

ghettosean
03-12-2012, 12:08 PM
I don't disagree. There's much more than just stats. That's why Rose won it last year, that's why Nash has two, etc.

The Bulls don't have "the story" this year. The Thunder's expectations are to finish #1 in the West, so it's hard to exceed that. LAL is failing to live up to expectations...as are the Clippers now. There's just not another great story out there to steal it from the best player...especially when that best player is playing at a level that is so far ahead of his competitors.

It's more than LeBron just having the best stats IMO...it's that he's playing at a level so much higher than the rest of the league that it's impossible to ignore. We just haven't see the gap from #1 to #2 this big in a very long time...So, with the lack of other stories and other great candidates, unless the Heat don't finish with a great record, it's hard to justify giving it to someone else.
I pretty much agree with 100% of what you wrote but the thing that kills it for me is the part I bolded. #2 is on the same team as him so to me it brings this whole accomplishment down a notch as I'm sure that may possibly be a historical marker as well (#1 and #2 on the same team).

It really ruins the whole MVP story to me.

ghettosean
03-12-2012, 12:10 PM
http://espn.go.com/nba/playoffs/2011/matchup/_/teams/heat-bulls

And I know that's just ESPN, but I don't remember the vast majority of people picking the Bulls...it was close, for sure, but the Heat were favored. Hell, you can discount Wilbon's vote because not only is his knowledge of the NBA so weak, but he's a huge Bulls fan. Haberstroh picking the Heat too means little.

And again, I don't get why expectations really mean anything. Who cares? What does it prove?
It doesn't prove anything but I just hate when I see over exagerations on here and I'll just throw a few facts there way that proves and tells the real story (If I can prove them wrong).

Like the postings above...

VANEXEL9
03-12-2012, 12:15 PM
I have him winning MVS by a wide margin ;)

Most Valueable Stats award!!!

MVP isn't soley based on stats if you are forgetting that or need me to post the reasons on past winners of the awards...

Again!

I will gladly do so for you :)

def agree

ghettosean
03-12-2012, 12:25 PM
yeah, most bettors took the heat, but not the paid analysts...more "expert" analysts took the bulls...if you can't comprehend, hooked on phonics is for you

P.S. i saw you have LeBron as 4th in the mvp order, can you make another ignoramus statement stating your order so i can sig quote it to spread your stupidity more quickly, thanks
Just saw your edit ... If that makes you feel better about losing your Chicago was favoured over Miami last season arguement and you saw my quote please feel free to use it as that is my opinion and I feel it is valid based on the history of MVP's in this league and I got facts to back up my opinion.

Hey I can put what you said as my signature but I am not that petty and could care less... Same goes for what you want to do use it but no chopping, cutting and manipulating my quote though please...
Good luck :)

ManRam
03-12-2012, 12:30 PM
I pretty much agree with 100% of what you wrote but the thing that kills it for me is the part I bolded. #2 is on the same team as him so to me it brings this whole accomplishment down a notch as I'm sure that may possibly be a historical marker as well (#1 and #2 on the same team).

It really ruins the whole MVP story to me.

Fair enough. The MVP has no set criteria, so you can factor in whatever you want to decide who wins really. To me, that matters, but not enough. There have been plenty of MVPs who have won with two or even three other all-stars on their team. Now, getting the #1 overall record will make that more worthy, but it has happened. I just don't think that playing with Wade makes him any less valuable than he is. He's still just unfathomably efficient this season. He still has no set role on his team...he can be the scorer/facilitator or he can guard your PG or you C and anyone in between. His value is just unreal this year.

Again, we value different things. Hell, one person said "style" was 1/3 of what the MVP voting is...so it's clear we all factor in things differently.

Basically, I know MVP doesn't not mean "best player"...but this year I think the best player has been too much better than the rest, and I think no player can touch his value. Again, that's just me. I'll agree to disagree with you, because unlike other posters here you have reasonable logic...it's just not the same as mine

justinnum1
03-12-2012, 12:32 PM
bron also holding it down on defense

http://www.82games.com/1112/ROLRTG3.HTM

ManRam
03-12-2012, 12:35 PM
bron also holding it down on defense

He may not be the best defender in the NBA (I do think Iggy, Allen and Dwight are better) but hands down he is the most versatile. He can shut down just about any wing as well as anyone can...and he can guard your center or your PG if so needed as well. I know he gets a ton of love for his defense, but it deserves it. This isn't like Kobe last year who gets on the all-defense team based on legacy or whatever, and this isn't Jeter winning gold gloves because he's Derek Jeter, this is LeBron actually being a dominant defender...easily the most dominant of the stars (sans Dwight).

ghettosean
03-12-2012, 12:48 PM
Fair enough. The MVP has no set criteria, so you can factor in whatever you want to decide who wins really. To me, that matters, but not enough. There have been plenty of MVPs who have won with two or even three other all-stars on their team. Now, getting the #1 overall record will make that more worthy, but it has happened. I just don't think that playing with Wade makes him any less valuable than he is. He's still just unfathomably efficient this season. He still has no set role on his team...he can be the scorer/facilitator or he can guard your PG or you C and anyone in between. His value is just unreal this year.

Again, we value different things. Hell, one person said "style" was 1/3 of what the MVP voting is...so it's clear we all factor in things differently.

Basically, I know MVP doesn't not mean "best player"...but this year I think the best player has been too much better than the rest, and I think no player can touch his value. Again, that's just me. I'll agree to disagree with you, because unlike other posters here you have reasonable logic...it's just not the same as mine

Agreed both our points are valid...

I will only agree that Lebron should win this award if his team comes out of the east on top (which they should having the top 2 players in PER and an All Star on the side). We all thought Lebron was the best in the league for years now so I'm not surprised about certain factors of his game (even though his PER is much higher than others like #2 D-Wade) but if he's the best and he's playing with 2 other top 15 players I really feel that winning the east is the only way in my eyes for him to be a clear favourite for MVP.

Again you are correct we both value different things regarding this award but I'm just going off the history of other MVP winners in the past. If they win the east I think Lebron will run away with the award if not I don't think he deserves to win since he has better than top talent on his team.

Just my thoughts.

Hawkize31
03-12-2012, 12:52 PM
http://espn.go.com/nba/playoffs/2011/matchup/_/teams/heat-bulls

And I know that's just ESPN, but I don't remember the vast majority of people picking the Bulls...it was close, for sure, but the Heat were favored. Hell, you can discount Wilbon's vote because not only is his knowledge of the NBA so weak, but he's a huge Bulls fan. Haberstroh picking the Heat too means little.

And again, I don't get why expectations really mean anything. Who cares? What does it prove?

It doesn't mean anything, but JB's arguments are so weak, he has to use stuff like that to try to make a case for...whatever nonsense he's trying to argue.

ManRam
03-12-2012, 12:54 PM
Agreed both our points are valid...

I will only agree that Lebron should win this award if his team comes out of the east on top (which they should having the top 2 players in PER). We all thought Lebron was the best in the league for years now so I'm not surprised about certain factors of his game (even though his PER is much higher than others like #2 D-Wade) but if he's the best and he's playing with 2 other top 15 players I really feel that winning the east is the only way in my eyes for him to be a clear favourite for MVP.

Again you are correct we both value different things regarding this award but I'm just going off the history of other MVP winners in the past. If they win the east I think Lebron will run away with the award if not I don't think he deserves to win since he has better than top talent on his team.

Just my thoughts.

Word. Your logic is fine. It isn't "the best player award"...not at all...

let's say the Bulls finish 60-16 and the Heat 59-17. If LeBron breaks the all-time single season PER and WS/48 record, do you still give it to Rose because of that one win differential? I guess you can swap the Bulls for the Thunder as well and ask the same question. Assume their individual stats remain the same as well...

ghettosean
03-12-2012, 01:12 PM
Word. Your logic is fine. It isn't "the best player award"...not at all...

let's say the Bulls finish 60-16 and the Heat 59-17. If LeBron breaks the all-time single season PER and WS/48 record, do you still give it to Rose because of that one win differential? I guess you can swap the Bulls for the Thunder as well and ask the same question. Assume their individual stats remain the same as well...
I'll stick with the bulls on that one because I think being dominant in the east is important/imperitive for him to get the MVP title. When I think back to when the big 3 joined forces they were so highly favoured that there was a mass amount of people that thought they can beat MJ's/Chicagos record of a 72 win season. They automatically got compared to one of the greatest teams of all time and if they can't win the east with the best player in the league I think that is a fail.

I know we are going down to the nickel and dime stuff with a 1 win differential but in my opinion if you are favoured to win it all 2 years in a row (both before Lebron had such a statisical season). If you are the best and playing with the best you better be winning the east if you want your name up for MVP. Even Lebron said himself when he came to Miami that he gave up any hope of ever winning the MVP again (I think he had the same definition of the award at that time as I do now looking back at others who won before then).

Even if by one game and I get what you are getting at if he can't get this team to dominate (not even just win) the east I don't think he should win that award.

JordansBulls
03-12-2012, 01:37 PM
well 1st of all LeBron was 19 when he won the 1st Bronze (what was MJ doing at 19, oh yeah, getting snubbed off the SI cover by Dean Smith) and the last 2 times LeBron competed in international competition he walked away with gold.

cavs were the favorites because media members had to make the cavs the favorites, it was chalk, naturally the higher seed would be favored before the series begins...the bulls were favored over the heat last yr by more analysts, off the top of my head; chuck, chris webber, kenny smith, ric bucher, jon barry, wilbon and magic all picked the bulls...so i guess rose can join the "failure at life" club with LeBron

Doesn't matter how old he was he was playing with superstars and lost to teams where Carlos Arroyo was the best player, not to mention lost in 2006 as well in FIBA with stars on his team.

Ovratd1up
03-12-2012, 04:32 PM
You cannot be that short-sighted man.

justinnum1
03-12-2012, 05:03 PM
Doesn't matter how old he was he was playing with superstars and lost to teams where Carlos Arroyo was the best player, not to mention lost in 2006 as well in FIBA with stars on his team.

:facepalm:

ManRam
03-12-2012, 05:08 PM
Doesn't matter how old he was he was playing with superstars and lost to teams where Carlos Arroyo was the best player, not to mention lost in 2006 as well in FIBA with stars on his team.

So it's entirely his fault, and not the other stars fault?

This is getting ridiculous, JB.

JordansBulls
03-12-2012, 05:12 PM
So it's entirely his fault, and not the other stars fault?

This is getting ridiculous, JB.

You need to follow the conversation.

http://forums.prosportsdaily.com/showthread.php?p=21296005#post21296005

Someone said any team Lebron went to would be the #1 seed and I said if that is the case then why wouldn't he be able to win with other superstars on his team like in the olympics and FIBA.

SteBO
03-12-2012, 06:08 PM
So it's entirely his fault, and not the other stars fault?

This is getting ridiculous, JB.

You need to follow the conversation.

http://forums.prosportsdaily.com/showthread.php?p=21296005#post21296005

Someone said any team Lebron went to would be the #1 seed and I said if that is the case then why wouldn't he be able to win with other superstars on his team like in the olympics and FIBA.
Why does this matter exactly? What does it prove about what LeBron is doing this year?

theheatles
03-12-2012, 06:23 PM
Just saw your edit ... If that makes you feel better about losing your Chicago was favoured over Miami last season arguement and you saw my quote please feel free to use it as that is my opinion and I feel it is valid based on the history of MVP's in this league and I got facts to back up my opinion.

Hey I can put what you said as my signature but I am not that petty and could care less... Same goes for what you want to do use it but no chopping, cutting and manipulating my quote though please...
Good luck :)

:speechless: you really have a hard time comprehending what i say...bulls were favored by analysts, before game 1 it was a clean sweep of analysts taking the bulls by tnt with espn being pretty much a split favoring the bulls slightly.
you have LeBron 4th in the mvp race (make another post of your order so i can sig it to spread your stupidity but hopefully you really aren't that dumb and were just talking out your ***), you're really showing to be clueless and a blind homer beyond comprehension

:horse:

Iodine
03-12-2012, 06:26 PM
To quote one of the less rational PSD posters I have encountered (Manram should remember this)

Illogical Fallacy.

Raph12
03-12-2012, 06:29 PM
Doesn't matter how old he was he was playing with superstars and lost to teams where Carlos Arroyo was the best player, not to mention lost in 2006 as well in FIBA with stars on his team.

You need to follow the conversation.

http://forums.prosportsdaily.com/showthread.php?p=21296005#post21296005

Someone said any team Lebron went to would be the #1 seed and I said if that is the case then why wouldn't he be able to win with other superstars on his team like in the olympics and FIBA.

I get what you're trying to say, but in 2004 and 2006, Lebron was not in his prime; any team he plays on has been #1 (1st in the Olympics, 1st in the 2008-09 season and the 2009-10 season and probably #1 by the end of this season) since 2008 with the exception of the adjustment period in Miami (#1 since 9-8 start to season) and I'm sure it stays that way... Lebron since he's hit his prime is the best player we've seen since Jordan's heyday.

Raph12
03-12-2012, 06:29 PM
^Double post

tredigs
03-12-2012, 09:32 PM
You need to follow the conversation.

http://forums.prosportsdaily.com/showthread.php?p=21296005#post21296005

Someone said any team Lebron went to would be the #1 seed and I said if that is the case then why wouldn't he be able to win with other superstars on his team like in the olympics and FIBA.

Hah JB, your reading comprehension and reasoning skills are HORRIBLE, man. You need to stop regurgitating and start reading/understanding.

What I said that 'PRIME' Lebron would be projected to be a #1 seed on whatever team in the NBA that he plays for (using Toronto, Milwaukee, etc. as examples). It still does not account for playoff matchups (or playoffs what-so-ever, really) and championships, and certainly not FIBA world runs when the kid was 19. I was trying to illuminate to you that you claiming Lebron's "teams" are great simply because they were projected to be 1 seeds is ridiculous. As virtually ANY team in the NBA prime Lebron is on will be projected to be the 1-2 seed. And rightfully so. You couldn't pick out more than 3 teams where that wouldn't be the case.

Seriously, how do you make these leaps? Hopefully it's just to argue, because if not than it's just silly how lost you are in this whole debate.

naps
03-12-2012, 10:46 PM
it's Lebron james with a very comfortable margin. If you add his crazy defensiv e game with his all around offensive dominance on the court, his stats, historical efficiency, and miami heat's record, it becomes a no brainer. people often forget that he's arguably the best perimeter defender in the league and a defensive player of the year candidate. only kobephiles in denial. only kobephiles are in denial because their God ain't even sniffing the MVP debate.

ghettosean
03-13-2012, 12:35 AM
well 1st of all LeBron was 19 when he won the 1st Bronze (what was MJ doing at 19, oh yeah, getting snubbed off the SI cover by Dean Smith) and the last 2 times LeBron competed in international competition he walked away with gold.

cavs were the favorites because media members had to make the cavs the favorites, it was chalk, naturally the higher seed would be favored before the series begins...the bulls were favored over the heat last yr by more analysts, off the top of my head; chuck, chris webber, kenny smith, ric bucher, jon barry, wilbon and magic all picked the bulls...so i guess rose can join the "failure at life" club with LeBron



before game 1 of the ECF more analysts picked the bulls I promise you, the TNT cast had a clean sweep of picking the bulls right before tip off of game 1...obv the heat were favored by vegas, they had to be, vegas makes odds based on how they think the public will bet

then after miami spanked the bulls, only jon barry and chuck picked the mavs

and thanks for pointing out you can't even remember what went down before the series and i can pretty much assume you're just a SC highlight fan



yeah, most bettors took the heat, but not the paid analysts...more "expert" analysts took the bulls...if you can't comprehend, hooked on phonics is for you

P.S. i saw you have LeBron as 4th in the mvp order, can you make another ignoramus statement stating your order so i can sig quote it to spread your stupidity more quickly, thanks



:speechless: you really have a hard time comprehending what i say...bulls were favored by analysts, before game 1 it was a clean sweep of analysts taking the bulls by tnt with espn being pretty much a split favoring the bulls slightly.
you have LeBron 4th in the mvp race (make another post of your order so i can sig it to spread your stupidity but hopefully you really aren't that dumb and were just talking out your ***), you're really showing to be clueless and a blind homer beyond comprehension

:horse:

*Sigh*

Ok dude I'll actually respond to this post why not and I'll make it pretty short because this is easy. You said a number of times that more expert and paid analysts picked Chicago over the Miami heat. Heck you even said that ESPN analysts were pretty much at a tie or had a stalemate slightly favoring Chicago (it's bolded if you want recheck your words).

The funny thing is that even after proof was posted otherwise about ESPN link below before you said this :facepalm:

http://espn.go.com/nba/playoffs/2011/matchup/_/teams/heat-bulls

So I'll make this pretty easy since you have no proof at least I have the link above showing the ESPN expert analysis votes WHICH WAS A LANDSLIDE OF 13-3 in favor of Miami. Even if I add up all the names you dropped in your original post and give you the benifit of the doubt that you are correct (though I would prefer to have some sort of link to prove your claims) but lets say all the names you mentioned picked Chicago well it's still 13-10 experts that favored Miami.

Since you were wrong you can be the bigger man and apologize :D.

This information was posted a while ago and you keep saying the same thing even though you were proven wrong. I'm sure that makes you much more intelligent than me :facepalm: Sorry but if you post things on here and claim it's true and others disagree they will challenge you like I did so have your facts ready if you want to debate about it.

Also if you want my quote of my MVP rankings here is a link to the page with my quote...

http://forums.prosportsdaily.com/showthread.php?t=701485&page=7

I gave you permission to use it as long as you don't manipulate my quote so go nuts. Why do you keep asking?!? If your unsure about how to change your sig or need help copying the quote I will gladly help you.

I'll be waiting for that apology :D

Chronz
03-13-2012, 02:25 AM
I disagree I think Wade who I believe is the leader on the Miami Heat team could have done that I mean he got a team where his best players were Jermaine Oneal and Beasley (I think that was also the year Beasley went to rehab for pot addiction and he barely played for the team) and Wade got them to be a 5th seed in the playoffs 2009-2010 season. I think he would have dropped dead for a Mo Williams and Antwan Jamison on his team... Don't you? Who really did more with less?
Bron did, easily. You give Bron the team Wade has and they finish with HCA for sure. Just my opinion tho


Again 2 of the top 3 players in the league team up and bring another top 15 player on board with them and you guys want one of them to be MVP :pity:

Its not about what I want, I personally want CP3 to win it, but I cant make the case. Bron simply has the best case, he has so thoroughly dominated the game this year that its not even a race IMO.


Considering 2009-2010 season I think Wade could have got this record with just Bosh and some free agents taking the money paid to Lebron. Excuse me but I'm not impressed...
What exactly are you considering?

Cfrey
03-13-2012, 04:41 AM
If the season ended today:

LeBron's 33.1 PER shatters the single-season record (31.84, Wilt)
LeBron's .3410 WS/48 breaks the single-season record (.3399, Kareem)

I know hating advanced stats is trendy if they don't say what you want to hear, but no matter how you slice it, those numbers are awe-inspiring. There's no way to knock that...it's impossible. There are plenty of fans on this site who reference these stats (a certain poster and to hype a certain Michael Jordan, for example) but will shun them now because of hatred...even when they're better than ever before.

He's having the most efficient season ever, as far as I'm concerned.

#1 in PER, #5 in TS%, #3 in eFG%, #3 in usage, #1 in OWS, #5 in DWS, #1 in Win shares (a full 2.6 wins above Durant) and #1 in WS/48 (duh, since he might break the record... compare his .341 to #2 CP3's .258...wow).


He's attempted 699 FGs, and has made 388 of them. Compare that to Kobe (235 more shots, 18 more makes), Durant (85 more attempts, 1 less make), Westbrook (58 more shots, 40 fewer makes) etc...and he's clearly the best scorer in the NBA. Add that amazing efficiency with the #2 FT rate in the NBA and you have something the league has never seen before, ever.


I mean, the only knock is that he plays with Wade, or that he's passed the ball to an open guy a few times late in games. Well, Durant plays with Westbrook. Rose plays with the league's best defense and the league's best bench. Kobe might have the best frontcourt in the league and has taken more awful clutch shots than the league combined. You can make all the arguments, but nothing can overcome the complete dominance that he is doing.

He's the best offensive player in the game right now, and he's better defensively than any of the other candidates (Howard withstanding).

27.9 points, 6.7 assists, 8.4 rebounds, 55.5% shooting, 39% from three, 1.8 steals and 0.8 blocks...on a top 3 team...would be guaranteed of this award any given season. Emotions/bias are all that can get in the way.

That is all. I'd like to here the reasoning behind Derrick Rose winning this...

post of the year

its lebron and its not even close.. and it sickens me that the basketball world has turned such a blind eye to greatness

Durant is hype
03-13-2012, 05:15 AM
Westbrook has to be a mention,I don't care if he plays with Durant or not.Dude's been beastin this season.

basketfan4life
03-13-2012, 05:30 AM
it's Lebron james with a very comfortable margin. If you add his crazy defensiv e game with his all around offensive dominance on the court, his stats, historical efficiency, and miami heat's record, it becomes a no brainer. people often forget that he's arguably the best perimeter defender in the league and a defensive player of the year candidate. only kobephiles in denial. only kobephiles are in denial because their God ain't even sniffing the MVP debate.

You are such a pathetic human being, you mention someone as kobephiles out of nowhere, cause that is your only argument, that strengghtens what you say. You want someone to come here and say kobe> lebron so you will have something to talk about. İ don't remember when eas the last time you didn't come out of no where and call someone kobephiles.

Kobephiles at least don't come out and say Kobe is godsent and heavenly like you talked about lebron other day. What does this make you, lebron nut sucker? idiot? bi ?

PS: Us Kobephiles, doesn't need him to sniff mvp debate, we don't need that, we got what we wanted from Kobe, anything you can imagine from Lebron we already got it from Kobe, your man choking in the playoffs year after year is fun for us too :)

naps
03-13-2012, 05:54 AM
^^Kobephile seems mad. What a rebuttal (or lack there of)!! I made a post with substance on why LeBron is the MVP and mentioned the only people here still saying LBJ is not the MVP thus far are kobephiles. And you came back with personal attack. WOW!! You are proving my point that you guys are simply butt-hurt as for why this race (or this poll) has been so lopsided and why kobe hasn't gotten more than just 2 votes. #LeBronDominance ;)

Oh and by the way, you wanna know why I called out? Here's a post of yours a couple of page back:


i clearly remember, even lebron was saying i want boston in the playoffs i'm gonna go old school on them...Not keeping promises, that defines lebron.

What is this^^? This is the MVP thread of 2012 NBA season. Why are you crying with whatever happened before this year? If he didn't keep his promise or w/e what does that have to do with this years MVP? So the point is if you can't make a case for your boy and can't make a case against the best on the planet you come up with offtopic stuff just like this above post? Smart!

basketfan4life
03-13-2012, 06:03 AM
^^Kobephile seems mad. What a rebuttal (or lack there of)!! I made a post with substance on why LeBron is the MVP and mentioned the only people here still saying LBJ is not the MVP thus far are kobephiles. And you came back with personal attack. WOW!! You are proving my point that you guys are simply butt-hurt as for why this race (or this poll) has been so lopsided and why kobe hasn't gotten more than just 2 votes. #LeBronDominance ;)

Oh and by the way, you wanna know why I called out? Here's a post of yours a couple of page back:



What is this^^? This is the MVP thread of 2012 NBA season. Why are you crying with whatever happened before this year? If he didn't keep his promise or w/e what does that have to do with this years MVP? So the point is if you can't make a case for your boy and can't make a case against the best on the planet you come up with offtopic stuff just like this above post? Smart!

twist words all you want you are nothing more than what i said, i think LBJ is the mvp of this year, you think same, but you need to call people kobephiles on this? i found the answer, not a nut sucker or bi, you are an idiot.

basketfan4life
03-13-2012, 06:05 AM
What is this^^? This is the MVP thread of 2012 NBA season. Why are you crying with whatever happened before this year? If he didn't keep his promise or w/e what does that have to do with this years MVP? So the point is if you can't make a case for your boy and can't make a case against the best on the planet you come up with offtopic stuff just like this above post? Smart!

read the post before mine, the argument about boston clevend series is there, oh but i forgot that you are an idi... you know what i think. :)

FreakaNashur
03-13-2012, 06:07 AM
You are such a pathetic human being, you mention someone as kobephiles out of nowhere, cause that is your only argument, that strengghtens what you say. You want someone to come here and say kobe> lebron so you will have something to talk about. İ don't remember when eas the last time you didn't come out of no where and call someone kobephiles.

Kobephiles at least don't come out and say Kobe is godsent and heavenly like you talked about lebron other day. What does this make you, lebron nut sucker? idiot? bi ?

PS: Us Kobephiles, doesn't need him to sniff mvp debate, we don't need that, we got what we wanted from Kobe, anything you can imagine from Lebron we already got it from Kobe, your man choking in the playoffs year after year is fun for us too :)

did you just called yourself a kobephile?:speechless:

naps
03-13-2012, 06:10 AM
twist words all you want you are nothing more than what i said, i think LBJ is the mvp of this year, you think same, but you need to call people kobephiles on this? i found the answer, not a nut sucker or bi, you are an idiot.

I didn't twist a single word. I made my case why LeBron is the MVP thus and said only Kobephiles can't accept it. And I didn't get mad and start personal attack #Immature.






read the post before mine, the argument about boston clevend series is there, oh but i forgot that you are an idi... you know what i think. :)

Doesn't matter what argument is there. The thing is your post has no business in this thread unless you are hating on LeBron for his greatness.


i clearly remember, even lebron was saying i want boston in the playoffs i'm gonna go old school on them...Not keeping promises, that defines lebron.

Just read it again. The word "Jealousy" is written all over it. And keep up the personal attack. I am not touching that.That will only strengthen your PSD life. I'll just keep making my case and call out the haters.

naps
03-13-2012, 06:11 AM
did you just called yourself a kobephile?:speechless:

Appreciate him. He's being honest and proving my point all along #HonestCitizen.

naps
03-13-2012, 06:16 AM
THIS (http://forums.prosportsdaily.com/showpost.php?p=21317128&postcount=199) should close the case for now.

Guys like ManRam, Hawkeye, Tredigs, Chronz, Iodine, Raph etc truly know what's up. These are some of the most rational and credible posters on this site.

basketfan4life
03-13-2012, 07:11 AM
did you just called yourself a kobephile?:speechless:

i'm trying to say every person who says a single good word about Kobe is kobephile for this guy, and i have al ot of good words for Kobe.

basketfan4life
03-13-2012, 07:19 AM
I didn't twist a single word. I made my case why LeBron is the MVP thus and said only Kobephiles can't accept it. And I didn't get mad and start personal attack #Immature.


Yes only Kobephiles can't accept it but yet kobe only has 2 votes here, all you do is attack people who are fan of Kobe. You can't prove this wrong everybody on this site know it.



Doesn't matter what argument is there. The thing is your post has no business in this thread unless you are hating on LeBron for his greatness.


Yeah now you are deciding what can and can't we talk about. Sorry boss.Can you inform everybody who talked about cleveland-magic and cleveland-celtics series under this topic. Or what i said conflicts with your agenda ?



Just read it again. The word "Jealousy" is written all over it. And keep up the personal attack. I am not touching that.That will only strengthen your PSD life. I'll just keep making my case and call out the haters.


Yeah talking about lebrons promises which he didn't keep = jealousy...What is your education again ?

Lebron participated to dunk contest, brought a c'ship to cleveland, went old school on boston (even with that sore shoulder) , i'm ignoring these and i'm jealous of his greatness :) u id.... :)

basketfan4life
03-13-2012, 07:28 AM
By the way, i think LBJ now is the best player in the world, and MVP of this year, hey naps come and twist this. İ just don't like this guy coming out and calling some people Kobephiles for no reason.

theheatles
03-13-2012, 10:04 AM
*Sigh*

Ok dude I'll actually respond to this post why not and I'll make it pretty short because this is easy. You said a number of times that more expert and paid analysts picked Chicago over the Miami heat. Heck you even said that ESPN analysts were pretty much at a tie or had a stalemate slightly favoring Chicago (it's bolded if you want recheck your words).

The funny thing is that even after proof was posted otherwise about ESPN link below before you said this :facepalm:

http://espn.go.com/nba/playoffs/2011/matchup/_/teams/heat-bulls

So I'll make this pretty easy since you have no proof at least I have the link above showing the ESPN expert analysis votes WHICH WAS A LANDSLIDE OF 13-3 in favor of Miami. Even if I add up all the names you dropped in your original post and give you the benifit of the doubt that you are correct (though I would prefer to have some sort of link to prove your claims) but lets say all the names you mentioned picked Chicago well it's still 13-10 experts that favored Miami.

Since you were wrong you can be the bigger man and apologize :D.

This information was posted a while ago and you keep saying the same thing even though you were proven wrong. I'm sure that makes you much more intelligent than me :facepalm: Sorry but if you post things on here and claim it's true and others disagree they will challenge you like I did so have your facts ready if you want to debate about it.

Also if you want my quote of my MVP rankings here is a link to the page with my quote...

http://forums.prosportsdaily.com/showthread.php?t=701485&page=7

I gave you permission to use it as long as you don't manipulate my quote so go nuts. Why do you keep asking?!? If your unsure about how to change your sig or need help copying the quote I will gladly help you.

I'll be waiting for that apology :D

That link of espn experts isn't credible...it must of been altered to save face and so their experts don't look as dumb, because legler didn't pick miami and i'm certain nick friedell also took the bulls in 7...and that panel has 3 paid employees of the heat so obv they are picking miami...not to mention that isn't all of espn analysts and 3/4 aren't on tv or radio

where's the quote of you having lebron behind rose, durant and parker? :confused: ...i don't want a quote of you giving lebron backhanded compliments in my sig, i want your true stupidity and/or homer bias

ghettosean
03-13-2012, 12:27 PM
That link of espn experts isn't credible...it must of been altered to save face and so their experts don't look as dumb, because legler didn't pick miami and i'm certain nick friedell also took the bulls in 7...and that panel has 3 paid employees of the heat so obv they are picking miami...not to mention that isn't all of espn analysts and 3/4 aren't on tv or radio
where's the quote of you having lebron behind rose, durant and parker? :confused: ...i don't want a quote of you giving lebron backhanded compliments in my sig, i want your true stupidity and/or homer bias

:laugh2:

So basically you still have no proof to back up your claims.... again. If the analysts on ESPN and TNT so heavily favoured Chicago in that series and last years playoffs was one of the most watched ever you think there would be something... It was just last season. Proof exists that proves my point and all you can give me is hearsay and tell me that is fact :facepalm:

Ok dude you win like you said ESPN must have altered the link I provided to there website as you mentioned and changed their official picks because of whatever you said above :facepalm:


I'll paste a quote from my last post for you which you can use as your sig also:



...you keep saying the same thing even though you were proven wrong. I'm sure that makes you much more intelligent than me :facepalm: Sorry but if you post things on here and claim it's true and others disagree they will challenge you like I did so have your facts ready if you want to debate about it.


P.S

If you can't find my quote from the link provided to you I suggest you try harder since you found it on your own to begin with if you can't TS buddy ;) Also I do not want to take credit for the ESPN link provided I did not retrieve that myself but others seem to remember the series the way I do except for "The Heatles" :D

ghettosean
03-13-2012, 01:14 PM
Originally Posted by ghettosean
I disagree I think Wade who I believe is the leader on the Miami Heat team could have done that I mean he got a team where his best players were Jermaine Oneal and Beasley (I think that was also the year Beasley went to rehab for pot addiction and he barely played for the team) and Wade got them to be a 5th seed in the playoffs 2009-2010 season. I think he would have dropped dead for a Mo Williams and Antwan Jamison on his team... Don't you? Who really did more with less?



Bron did, easily. You give Bron the team Wade has and they finish with HCA for sure. Just my opinion tho


As far as Lebron finishing with HCA that's your opinion and valid (he honestly might have) he is playing the best as of this year and argueably there best player last year aside from the finals. The part that kills me though is you didn't really respond to me... In your original post you said that Lebron is the only player who could have made the cavs a #1 seed and I'm saying Wade had much less then Lebron and took his team to a #5 seed. I mean what rank did you see Lebron bringing that team to #4 seed??? Wades best players were Jermaine O'neal and Haslem I won't count beasley because of his problems with drug addiction and didn't play too much that year and when he did play he wasn't that effective. I mean at least Lebron had Mo Williams, Jamison, Varaejo, Anthony Parker... etc.

Wade truly had a bunch of scrubs compared to Lebron and I still think he would have pulled the cavs to a #1 seed if he was on the squad and I also think if situations were reversed and Wade left Miami there record would have been much worse than the cavs.

Just my opinion.






Originally Posted by ghettosean
Again 2 of the top 3 players in the league team up and bring another top 15 player on board with them and you guys want one of them to be MVP





Its not about what I want, I personally want CP3 to win it, but I cant make the case. Bron simply has the best case, he has so thoroughly dominated the game this year that its not even a race IMO.



I keep driving the same point home... If Lebron is dominating the league as you said and he is playing with player as great as Wade (the stuff I mentioned above should be enough to prove that but I'll add in the he is #2 in PER in the league behind James) and a multiple all star in Chris Bosh why are they not DOMINATING THE EAST!!! It doesn't make sense that the best player in the league who is playing with the best (top 3 in Wade and 15 in Bosh) is not DOMINATING THE EAST!!! Lebron can do it with the cavs so if that squad was as horrible as everyone says why can't he take the east with a bunch of superstars!?! Honestly this story does not captivate me for MVP honors. I posted stuff previously that showed previous winners of this award did not win it solely based on stats.

Why should this year be any different?









Originally Posted by ghettosean
Considering 2009-2010 season I think Wade could have got this record with just Bosh and some free agents taking the money paid to Lebron. Excuse me but I'm not impressed...



What exactly are you considering?



Chronz this is the only thing I really hate about you... You play on words a lot at least that's what I think when looking at what you misinterpret from my quote above but I'll pretend you don't understand and I'll define "Considering" for you.




Quote from "www.dictionary.com"
http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/considering

con·sid·er·ing   /kənˈsɪdərɪŋ/ Show Spelled[kuhn-sid-er-ing] Show IPA
preposition
1. taking into account; in view of: The campaign was a great success, considering the strong opposition.


Now if you hopefully understand the sentence that was my point if Wade can take the heat to a #5 seed with a squad way worse than Lebrons and with what he had (Haslem, O'neal and fillers) adding just Bosh and putting some other good pieces around that probably would have him as a #1 seed in the east right now.

My opinion

justinnum1
03-13-2012, 03:15 PM
Good article, talks about lebron being the front runner for MVP and him possible winning DPOY
http://espn.go.com/blog/truehoop/miamiheat/post/_/id/12922/james-eyeing-howards-top-defender-award

ManRam
03-13-2012, 03:21 PM
Well, I'd have a hard time voting LeBron over Iggy...but those two and Dwight are my top three for sure. Iggy is better purely one-on-one, but LeBron's versatility makes it really close. He can guard anyone in this league aside from the absolute biggest centers...who else can say that?

theheatles
03-13-2012, 03:32 PM
:laugh2:

So basically you still have no proof to back up your claims.... again. If the analysts on ESPN and TNT so heavily favoured Chicago in that series and last years playoffs was one of the most watched ever you think there would be something... It was just last season. Proof exists that proves my point and all you can give me is hearsay and tell me that is fact :facepalm:

Ok dude you win like you said ESPN must have altered the link I provided to there website as you mentioned and changed their official picks because of whatever you said above :facepalm:


I'll paste a quote from my last post for you which you can use as your sig also:




P.S

If you can't find my quote from the link provided to you I suggest you try harder since you found it on your own to begin with if you can't TS buddy ;) Also I do not want to take credit for the ESPN link provided I did not retrieve that myself but others seem to remember the series the way I do except for "The Heatles" :D

i know ;)

i'm 100% certain friedell picked the bulls pre series (which invalidates that to me, it must of been altered) or i guess those are the projections after game 2 or something

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_javVdT8PAA

thats all i could find after 10 minutes of searching...go to 2:15...thats 3 confirmed

Iodine
03-13-2012, 03:33 PM
And Dwight is now the LVP

Durant is hype
03-13-2012, 03:47 PM
Here's Why Russell Westbrook has got to get a mention.

#7 in PER,#2 in usage,#15 in OWS,#20 in WS,#4 among 25 scorers in +- with a +237,#8 among top 25 scorers in assists(5.5 ast),#15 among top 25 scorers in rebounds with 4.7,#12 among top 25 scorers in free throw(81.2%),#15 in 3pt shooting among top 25 scorers(31.9%),#11 in shooting percentage among top 25 scorers(47.0%),#5 in the league in scoring(23.7).

Russell Westbrook's more than a "shot jacker" 1.82 missed shots per assist---2.16 missed shots per rebound.

Russell Wesbrook is having his best season,second best player on the #1 place Thunder and he doesn't even get a mention? Why?! I'm surprised nobody made a case for him. Is it all because of this stupid misconception that two players can't be MVP candidates

ManRam
03-13-2012, 03:55 PM
Here's Why Russell Westbrook has got to get a mention.

#7 in PER,#2 in usage,#15 in OWS,#20 in WS,#4 among 25 scorers in +- with a +237,#8 among top 25 scorers in assists(5.5 ast),#15 among top 25 scorers in rebounds with 4.7,#12 among top 25 scorers in free throw(81.2%),#15 in 3pt shooting among top 25 scorers(31.9%),#11 in shooting percentage among top 25 scorers(47.0%),#5 in the league in scoring(23.7).

Russell Westbrook's more than a "shot jacker" 1.82 missed shots per assist---2.16 missed shots per rebound.

Russell Wesbrook is having his best season,second best player on the #1 place Thunder and he doesn't even get a mention? Why?! I'm surprised nobody made a case for him. Is it all because of this stupid misconception that two players can't be on MVP candidates?

It's a stupid misconception, for sure. But he's clearly not a candidate ahead of Durant. He's in my top 10, but I can't consider him too seriously for a top spot. And I love Russy. Love love love.

Iodine
03-13-2012, 03:58 PM
Russy is easily my favorite PG after CP3 and TP, and is a top 10 MVP guy and should be on an all NBA team, but yeah I can't really see him getting serious consideration

Raph12
03-13-2012, 03:59 PM
Here's Why Russell Westbrook has got to get a mention.

#7 in PER,#2 in usage,#15 in OWS,#20 in WS,#4 among 25 scorers in +- with a +237,#8 among top 25 scorers in assists(5.5 ast),#15 among top 25 scorers in rebounds with 4.7,#12 among top 25 scorers in free throw(81.2%),#15 in 3pt shooting among top 25 scorers(31.9%),#11 in shooting percentage among top 25 scorers(47.0%),#5 in the league in scoring(23.7).

Russell Westbrook's more than a "shot jacker" 1.82 missed shots per assist---2.16 missed shots per rebound.

Russell Wesbrook is having his best season,second best player on the #1 place Thunder and he doesn't even get a mention? Why?! I'm surprised nobody made a case for him. Is it all because of this stupid misconception that two players can't be on MVP candidates?

The reason why Westbrook hasn't been mentioned, is because of the emergence of Harden; Harden has played like an AS this season and Westbrook hasn't outplayed him enough to be labelled the "second best player" outright.

Durant is hype
03-13-2012, 05:02 PM
The reason why Westbrook hasn't been mentioned, is because of the emergence of Harden; Harden has played like an AS this season and Westbrook hasn't outplayed him enough to be labelled the "second best player" outright.

The same case could be made for Kevin Durant not being "miles better" than Russy. How does that hinder Russy's excellent individual season?

Raph12
03-13-2012, 05:10 PM
The same case could be made for Kevin Durant not being "miles better" than Russy. How does that hinder Russy's excellent individual season?

No Durant has clearly outplayed both guys and is the definite "best player" on that team. Like Lebron has been the "best player" on his team this season, both have pulled away from their second options... It was a lot closer last season.

Durant is hype
03-13-2012, 05:16 PM
No Durant has clearly outplayed both guys and is the definite "best player" on that team. Like Lebron has been the "best player" on his team this season, both have pulled away from their second options... It was a lot closer last season.

Yeah I agree Durantula is on another level, right below Bron.Although the 3-5 spot has been interchangeable all year which I think Russy deserves a mention.And so what Harden has played well,how does that hinder Westbrook's chances? Westbrook is still having the better season in comparison to Harden.

justinnum1
03-13-2012, 05:45 PM
shandel richardson
SVG says he would have a hard time not voting LeBron for MVP

lavilevi23
03-13-2012, 06:19 PM
Any coach would have a hard time not voting for LBJ..
Except for Thibbs maybe.

northsider
03-13-2012, 07:18 PM
Any coach would have a hard time not voting for LBJ..
Except for Thibbs maybe.

You don't really believe Thibs actually cares or gets wrapped up in the petty **** some of the fans on here do??? I mean you can't seriously believe this right??? Then again I don't know if I would actually be shocked if you really though he did.

Not everyone in Chicago has a vendetta against Bron or cares for him.

More-Than-Most
03-13-2012, 10:36 PM
lol time for its fixed

Lakers + Giants
03-13-2012, 11:29 PM
Before laker fans say kobe should be there, think. Who's been more valuable this year kobe or Drew? Yea. . . it's been drew.

naps
03-14-2012, 05:41 AM
Yeah talking about lebrons promises which he didn't keep = jealousy...What is your education again ?

Lebron participated to dunk contest, brought a c'ship to cleveland, went old school on boston (even with that sore shoulder) , i'm ignoring these and i'm jealous of his greatness :) u id.... :)

What the **** do any of these have to do anything here in this MVP thread again? You are just mad that Kobe has no case.

ghettosean
03-14-2012, 06:52 AM
i know ;)

i'm 100% certain friedell picked the bulls pre series (which invalidates that to me, it must of been altered) or i guess those are the projections after game 2 or something

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_javVdT8PAA

thats all i could find after 10 minutes of searching...go to 2:15...thats 3 confirmed
I honestly was looking for a TNT clip too... Respect for finding that... I think we can agree it was pretty close between the 2 sides.

basketfan4life
03-14-2012, 07:09 AM
What the **** do any of these have to do anything here in this MVP thread again? You are just mad that Kobe has no case.

yeah just take the last paragraph and reply it, take it out of context, you think you are smart right :) you are so low for me to take you seriously.

Knicks21
03-14-2012, 07:26 AM
But Lebron is the second option :shrug:

Avenged
03-14-2012, 10:18 AM
I'd like to see Bynum round the top 10 :D

Been playing better than Kobe :p

Iodine
03-14-2012, 11:21 AM
Id like to see Roger Mason and Bismack make a sex tape

zo#33
03-14-2012, 12:44 PM
Id like to see Roger Mason and Bismack make a sex tape

And James Harden.

Iodine
03-14-2012, 12:59 PM
And James Harden.

Mainly his beard, but yes

JordansBulls
03-14-2012, 01:04 PM
I don't think he will win it unless they can get the 2 spot, but Dwight can get into the MVP race and win MVP this season. It reminds me of the Kobe in 2008 situation when he wanted to get traded and then they got Gasol and then he ended up with MVP. I can see Dwight getting MVP but only if the Magic are really close in the standings with Miami and Chicago by seasons end.

ghettosean
03-14-2012, 01:34 PM
I don't think he will win it unless they can get the 2 spot, but Dwight can get into the MVP race and win MVP this season. It reminds me of the Kobe in 2008 situation when he wanted to get traded and then they got Gasol and then he ended up with MVP. I can see Dwight getting MVP but only if the Magic are really close in the standings with Miami and Chicago by seasons end.
If Dwight is still in a Magic uniform before the deadline but yeah I can see that only because I don't know about others but I never expected him to get Orlando so high in the east with the media circus all over him this season about him staying or leaving Orlando.

Chronz
03-14-2012, 02:53 PM
As far as Lebron finishing with HCA that's your opinion and valid (he honestly might have) he is playing the best as of this year and argueably there best player last year aside from the finals. The part that kills me though is you didn't really respond to me... In your original post you said that Lebron is the only player who could have made the cavs a #1 seed and I'm saying Wade had much less then Lebron and took his team to a #5 seed.
Not sure why you had to clarify that it was my opinion, obviously we are both exchanging opinions, thats why I did in fact respond to you. Your saying Wade took his inferior team to the 5th seed, I acknowledge that fact, happy? I still stand by my statement, you would have a helluva case if the 2 teams were pretty close in the standing in spite of whatever talent disparity you believe in, but Im not that impressed with getting that team to the 5th seed. Dont get me wrong its impressive, but not as impressive as getting 65+ wins out of an admittedly deep but talent deprived roster like Cleveland had.


I mean what rank did you see Lebron bringing that team to #4 seed??? Wades best players were Jermaine O'neal and Haslem I won't count beasley because of his problems with drug addiction and didn't play too much that year and when he did play he wasn't that effective. I mean at least Lebron had Mo Williams, Jamison, Varaejo, Anthony Parker... etc.

Parker? If you can count Parker then you can count Beasley, he was a chucker with middling efficiency but he did have some worth as a bench scorer, certainly comparable to the minor role Parker played for the Cavs. Anyways the Cavs were definitely the better team if thats all your trying to say.



Wade truly had a bunch of scrubs compared to Lebron and I still think he would have pulled the cavs to a #1 seed if he was on the squad and I also think if situations were reversed and Wade left Miami there record would have been much worse than the cavs.

I disagree, I do think Bron had more talent but I just cant see a case for Wade filling in on everything Bron could for Cleveland, he just lacks that versatility.



I keep driving the same point home... If Lebron is dominating the league as you said and he is playing with player as great as Wade (the stuff I mentioned above should be enough to prove that but I'll add in the he is #2 in PER in the league behind James) and a multiple all star in Chris Bosh why are they not DOMINATING THE EAST!!! It doesn't make sense that the best player in the league who is playing with the best (top 3 in Wade and 15 in Bosh) is not DOMINATING THE EAST!!! Lebron can do it with the cavs so if that squad was as horrible as everyone says why can't he take the east with a bunch of superstars!?! Honestly this story does not captivate me for MVP honors. I posted stuff previously that showed previous winners of this award did not win it solely based on stats.

There is no direct criteria, you can look back at history and see the inconsistencies for yourself. Thats why when I talk about the award and who should win, I dont base it on the medias inconsistent criteria, I base it on my own standard. And Bron is having one of those seasons I just cant ignore.

And to be honest I dont agree with your THEY ARENT DOMINATING THE EAST theory, they have the best offense, the highest SRS in the league with a pretty great defense behind them (based heavily on Brons versatility). They may not be on a 70 win pace if thats all your holding against them but they are dominating. The reason for the disconnect between reality and your expectations has to do with how your using the stats, for example you cited Wade's PER, well PER is a per minute stat that doesnt reflect the cumulative contributions to a team, and Wade is playing the lowest MPG I can recall, the team isnt going all out because they are pacing themselves for the greater run, why run Wade through the ground when you have the best differentials in the league while on cruise control?
Most importantly however is the fact that its still a 5 on 5 game and the Heat have no Center, when either Bosh or Wade are out (Bosh moreso) the team loses what makes them special. Look at the Lakers, they have 3 legitimate All-Stars, 1 of which is a Top 8 player of all time who is still leading the league in scoring, and the other 2 are 2-way bigmen in a league devoid of them. By those starting 3 alone you would think they would be dominating, instead they get creamed on the road and have trouble utilizing their bigs. This is because outside the big 3 (and considering minor injuries), they have about 2 or 3 players who could be in an NBA rotations today. There just isnt enough spacing or reason to respect the role players so Kobe has to go gung ho just to allow his bigs room to operate.


Why should this year be any different?
Because its one of those years where the games best player is showcasing it to the fullest.



Chronz this is the only thing I really hate about you... You play on words a lot at least that's what I think when looking at what you misinterpret from my quote above but I'll pretend you don't understand and I'll define "Considering" for you.

Why are you defining a word and not outlining what exactly youve considered.


Now if you hopefully understand the sentence that was my point if Wade can take the heat to a #5 seed with a squad way worse than Lebrons and with what he had (Haslem, O'neal and fillers) adding just Bosh and putting some other good pieces around that probably would have him as a #1 seed in the east right now.

My opinion

LMFAO

So your opinion is based on something you considered, and those considerations are based on more opinions? Well its my opinion that your not considering anything then, your just repeating your opinion. That was my point, I dont agree that the squad was WAY worse as you so eloquently put it, Im not seeing this chasm in talent ability.

If Wade cant get HCA with the squad he had, then I dont think he can perform all those roles Bron had to for Cleveland to win.

Now for you saying he could lead Miami now the way Bron has, its totally plausible, but for a guy like Wade, having Bron around to carry the heavy burden is what allows him to rest. I dont trust Wade's durability and consistency to be able to carry the load Bron has throughout his career, and the injury history between the 2 are a testament to that fact, his lack of versatility would also lessen his potential impact on the team. Overall Im sure you could build a team and tell Wade to go full out, but with Bron I dont have to worry as much that he will breakdown and I have the advantage of a superior 2-way player who fill multiple positions, in short, the odds are against you.

justinnum1
03-14-2012, 02:59 PM
:burn:

Chronz
03-14-2012, 03:02 PM
I don't think he will win it unless they can get the 2 spot, but Dwight can get into the MVP race and win MVP this season. It reminds me of the Kobe in 2008 situation when he wanted to get traded and then they got Gasol and then he ended up with MVP. I can see Dwight getting MVP but only if the Magic are really close in the standings with Miami and Chicago by seasons end.

So wheres Dwights Pau?

chicago lulz
03-14-2012, 05:10 PM
You don't really believe Thibs actually cares or gets wrapped up in the petty **** some of the fans on here do??? I mean you can't seriously believe this right??? Then again I don't know if I would actually be shocked if you really though he did.

Not everyone in Chicago has a vendetta against Bron or cares for him.

Have you seen this guy's sig? Now ask yourself, "Did I really need to ask a question I already know the answer to?"

Raph12
03-14-2012, 05:19 PM
So wheres Dwights Pau?

This... Dwight's second option is Jameer Nelson, that pretty much sums it up.

If Lebron wasn't going bananas on the league, Dwight would be given a lot more consideration.

vdv36
03-15-2012, 02:21 PM
LBJ with 44??? Durant and Rose with 8 :laugh: how can you be an MVP when you have 2 of the top 10 players in the league???? 1 top 5 in Wade 1 top 10 in Bosh.... IMO LBJ will be considered but will never win this award unless its a finals MVP... which don't see happening any time soon.

naps
03-15-2012, 07:13 PM
LBJ with 44??? Durant and Rose with 8 :laugh: how can you be an MVP when you have 2 of the top 10 players in the league???? 1 top 5 in Wade 1 top 10 in Bosh.... IMO LBJ will be considered but will never win this award unless its a finals MVP... which don't see happening any time soon.

Good logic.

IMO It should be Derrick Rose and it's not even close. Bulls suck without Rose. They would for the number one pick next year's draft if Rose wasn't there. No has carried a team in the the history of basketball like Rose is doing right now.

naps
03-15-2012, 07:17 PM
I'd like to see Bynum round the top 10 :D

Been playing better than Kobe :p

Don't say that in the Lakers forum. You will be a sandwich in a matter of minutes.

ghettosean
03-15-2012, 07:32 PM
Not sure why you had to clarify that it was my opinion, obviously we are both exchanging opinions, thats why I did in fact respond to you. Your saying Wade took his inferior team to the 5th seed, I acknowledge that fact, happy? I still stand by my statement, you would have a helluva case if the 2 teams were pretty close in the standing in spite of whatever talent disparity you believe in, but Im not that impressed with getting that team to the 5th seed. Dont get me wrong its impressive, but not as impressive as getting 65+ wins out of an admittedly deep but talent deprived roster like Cleveland had.



Parker? If you can count Parker then you can count Beasley, he was a chucker with middling efficiency but he did have some worth as a bench scorer, certainly comparable to the minor role Parker played for the Cavs. Anyways the Cavs were definitely the better team if thats all your trying to say.



I want everyone to know that this is the 1st time me and Chronz have agreed on anything :clap: Miami was the lesser team and Wade got them to a 5th seed in the east right before LBJ and him joined forces. Though you only admit that Lebrons team was deeper and not more talented but I'll take what I can get from you so bravo!

So Lebron had a talent deprived roster you said it... It's up there and I somewhat agree with you. It's great to find out that they are not as weak as everyone claims them to be. Wade also took a talented deprived roster that was not as good as Lebrons and he made them a #5 seed in the east.

2 superstar players with talent deprived rosters that got much more than anyone bargained for. It's actually amazing when you think about it #1 seed with a terrible roster fantastic. MVP story to me :)

That's it for the response on that (surprised). I forgot how good he and Wade were to do so much with with so little... Astounding!



I disagree, I do think Bron had more talent but I just cant see a case for Wade filling in on everything Bron could for Cleveland, he just lacks that versatility.


Yep he's not as versatile as Lebron good point! He's probably no where close to his talent level :)



There is no direct criteria, you can look back at history and see the inconsistencies for yourself. Thats why when I talk about the award and who should win, I dont base it on the medias inconsistent criteria, I base it on my own standard. And Bron is having one of those seasons I just cant ignore.


I can't ignore it either he is playing great and is currently best in the league. Can you mention another player who had the best PER in the league and won MVP but didn't have the best record in there conference? I'll wait...

Take as loooooooooooooooooooooong as you need :D



And to be honest I dont agree with your THEY ARENT DOMINATING THE EAST theory, they have the best offense, the highest SRS in the league with a pretty great defense behind them (based heavily on Brons versatility). They may not be on a 70 win pace if thats all your holding against them but they are dominating. The reason for the disconnect between reality and your expectations has to do with how your using the stats, for example you cited Wade's PER, well PER is a per minute stat that doesnt reflect the cumulative contributions to a team, and Wade is playing the lowest MPG I can recall, the team isnt going all out because they are pacing themselves for the greater run, why run Wade through the ground when you have the best differentials in the league while on cruise control?
Most importantly however is the fact that its still a 5 on 5 game and the Heat have no Center, when either Bosh or Wade are out (Bosh moreso) the team loses what makes them special. Look at the Lakers, they have 3 legitimate All-Stars, 1 of which is a Top 8 player of all time who is still leading the league in scoring, and the other 2 are 2-way bigmen in a league devoid of them. By those starting 3 alone you would think they would be dominating, instead they get creamed on the road and have trouble utilizing their bigs. This is because outside the big 3 (and considering minor injuries), they have about 2 or 3 players who could be in an NBA rotations today. There just isnt enough spacing or reason to respect the role players so Kobe has to go gung ho just to allow his bigs room to operate.


I'll respond to this at the end of my post



Because its one of those years where the games best player is showcasing it to the fullest.


That's right because individual stats are all this award has ever been about. I wonder who will have the best individual performance next year and win MVP.


Here is some lovely word play by you Chronz lets see my earlier quote and your responses shall we:



Originally Posted by ghettosean
Considering 2009-2010 season I think Wade could have got this record with just Bosh and some free agents taking the money paid to Lebron. Excuse me but I'm not impressed...




Originally Posted by Chronz View Post
What exactly are you considering?




Originally Posted by ghettosean
Chronz this is the only thing I really hate about you... You play on words a lot at least that's what I think when looking at what you misinterpret from my quote above but I'll pretend you don't understand and I'll define "Considering" for you.



Quote from "www.dictionary.com"
http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/considering

con·sid·er·ing   /kənˈsɪdərɪŋ/ Show Spelled[kuhn-sid-er-ing] Show IPA
preposition
1. taking into account; in view of: The campaign was a great success, considering the strong opposition.




Now if you hopefully understand the sentence that was my point if Wade can take the heat to a #5 seed with a squad way worse than Lebrons and with what he had (Haslem, O'neal and fillers) adding just Bosh and putting some other good pieces around that probably would have him as a #1 seed in the east right now.

My opinion


Now for everyone's amusement the latest from Chronz





Originally Posted by Chronz View Post
Why are you defining a word and not outlining what exactly youve considered.




LMFAO

So your opinion is based on something you considered, and those considerations are based on more opinions? Well its my opinion that your not considering anything then, your just repeating your opinion. That was my point, I dont agree that the squad was WAY worse as you so eloquently put it, Im not seeing this chasm in talent ability.

If Wade cant get HCA with the squad he had, then I dont think he can perform all those roles Bron had to for Cleveland to win.

Now for you saying he could lead Miami now the way Bron has, its totally plausible, but for a guy like Wade, having Bron around to carry the heavy burden is what allows him to rest. I dont trust Wade's durability and consistency to be able to carry the load Bron has throughout his career, and the injury history between the 2 are a testament to that fact, his lack of versatility would also lessen his potential impact on the team. Overall Im sure you could build a team and tell Wade to go full out, but with Bron I dont have to worry as much that he will breakdown and I have the advantage of a superior 2-way player who fill multiple positions, in short, the odds are against you.


Before I go on I want you to know Chronz I don't want you to get frustrated in not understanding certain words and how certain sentences are formed so I thought I'd post this link just to show my support to you :)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c_bqd7NbOeM

Just give it time buddy you can do it I believe in you :D

Now back to your final quote and my response:

Word play aside (which I think people do when they are losing an argument get frustrated and try to win the argument with such a tactic)

So your basically worried about Wade staying healthy and he is not as versatile as Lebron. Let me just give you that one cause I don't care to debate it.

There is proof above and me and you both agree that D-Wade and Lebron and phenomenal players. Wade took a team that doesn't have talent really and was not deep to a #5 seed. Lebron took a talent deprived team and took them to be the #1 seed in the east. These 2 amazingly talented gentleman formed a super team with themselves and adding a multiple all star in Chris Bosh they are no longer talent deprived.

If Lebron can turn a team of a bunch of talentless players to the #1 seed in Cleveland why can't he do it with the GREATLY AND SUPREMELY talented Miami heat team to the #1 in the east :rolleyes: Seriously I look earlier in this thread and people are saying he can join any team and turn them into a #1 seed but he can't seem to do that with Miami. You make a good point when you say "they have the best offense, the highest SRS in the league". Wow that's a good point you made I'm sure everyone here is shocked that Lebron, Wade and Bosh all on the same team can accomplish this... SHOCKING!

You use these arguements to say they are dominating the east which is false because the are not the #1 seed and on top of that last night a full strength Miami Heat team play a Bulls team with no superstar and they lost!!! I will say that Wade was magnificent and so was Lebron I mean wow 36 for Wade and 35 for your MVP candidate with them both shooting over 50% from the field (marvelous). The only thing that troubles me is your choice for MVP didn't the rest of the team involved and he didn't get the win.

This game couldn't have come at a more perfect time to prove my point that they are not dominating the east as you say. Aside from last nights game (can't base it all on one game you got to look at there record and I don't see them on top with all there lovely talent). You make excuses that Wade is playing half speed and Miami doesn't have a centre smh! What about last year they had the centre that took the Cavs to a #1 seed was that not enough on top of 2 other all stars. Even if Wade is playing half speed or even ignore him all together Bosh + Lebron and talentless players is more than he had in Cleveland and he can't get #1 in the east are you kidding me!

Using last nights game as an example it shows that stats alone don't win games and stats alone do not win you the MVP never has... Hopefully it never will because I would hate to see a bunch of players playing for stats. It would be like a bunch of Allen Iversons on the floor trying to get there's and not get there teammates involved (how many points did Miami's bench have last night???)


If Lebron does not get this greatly talented team to be a #1 seed in the east I don't see anyway of him winning MVP. Having Wade and Bosh should be more than enough to accomplish that as you've stated Lebron has done more with less and got #1 seed with the horrible Cavs team.... Right!?! These are your words not mine and it's also fact!!! I mean there hasn't been that much change on the heat roster it's virtually the same as last year (better in my opinion) and you think if they end up in the same spot they did last year in the eastern conference that Lebron deserves MVP. Really MVP for that!!! That's some weak stuff!!!

He is my MVS candidate though --> Most Valuable Stats

Raph12
03-15-2012, 08:54 PM
^U mad?