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View Full Version : Is Kevin Love a top10 player?



Aust
03-06-2012, 01:56 AM
In your opinion, is Kevin Love a top 10 player?

Baller1
03-06-2012, 01:58 AM
Lebron
Durant
Wade
Kobe
CP3
Rose
Dwight

Those are the top 7. Then there's a lot of candidates to fill the next three. Love is definitely getting there.

PatsSoxKnicks
03-06-2012, 02:02 AM
Lebron
Durant
Wade
Kobe
CP3
Rose
Dwight

Those are the top 7. Then there's a lot of candidates to fill the next three. Love is definitely getting there.

I'd throw Dirk in there to get to a top 8. He's been having a down year but it was just a year ago where he was leading the Mavs to a championship.

Love, Aldridge and Pau probably battle it out for the last 2 spots. Throw Westbrook and Deron in there too.

Cal827
03-06-2012, 02:07 AM
Tough to say

My Top 5 currently are:

Lebron
Dwight
Durant
Wade
Rose

Then there are guys approaching players or old superstars

Dirk
Kobe
Westbrook
Griffin
Aldridge
Love
Nash
Paul
Deron
Amare/Melo

From that List, I would put Paul, Kobe/Dirk, Deron (Hate the guy, but on a team with actual players, he probably would have much better numbers. I would have him right at 10, cause I think Blake is good, but I need to see more than dunks (like defense lol), Lemarcus reminds me too much of Bosh when he was in Toronto (As In Bosh is a top 15 player, not top 10), Melo/Amare aren't the best defenders, and Westbrook is too much of a chucker at this point.

Sadds The Gr8
03-06-2012, 02:09 AM
Best PF in the world today.

iliketurtles24
03-06-2012, 02:10 AM
yes

LTBaByyy
03-06-2012, 02:13 AM
Lebron
Dwight
Wade
Kobe
CP3
Rose
Dirk
Durant
D Will
Melo/Amare/Griffin/Love could all go 10

Hawkeye15
03-06-2012, 02:17 AM
Yes, he is.

Baller1
03-06-2012, 02:21 AM
I'd throw Dirk in there to get to a top 8. He's been having a down year but it was just a year ago where he was leading the Mavs to a championship.

Love, Aldridge and Pau probably battle it out for the last 2 spots. Throw Westbrook and Deron in there too.

True... I personally think Pau's fallen a bit though.

Sadds The Gr8
03-06-2012, 02:21 AM
Lebron
Dwight
Wade
Kobe
CP3
Rose
Dirk
Durant
D Will
Melo/Amare/Griffin/Love could all go 10

LOL not even close. Amar'e ****in blows dick this year

blom85
03-06-2012, 02:23 AM
Does this guy mean top 5?

Raph12
03-06-2012, 02:24 AM
1. Lebron
.
.
.
2. Dwight
3. Wade
4. Durant
5. CP3
6. Kobe
7. Rose
.
.
.
8-13. Dirk Nowitzki
8-13. Kevin Love
8-13. Russell Westbrook
8-13. Blake Griffin
8-13. LaMarcus Aldridge
8-13. Deron Williams

Debateable, but arguably, yes.

Furymaker
03-06-2012, 02:25 AM
if he's not who is it ? of course he is
Lebron
Durant
Rose
Kobe
Dwight
Wade
CP3
Love
DIrk
D-Will
Westbrook/Melo

blom85
03-06-2012, 02:25 AM
Tough to say

My Top 5 currently are:

Lebron
Dwight
Durant
Wade
Rose

Then there are guys approaching players or old superstars

Dirk
Kobe
Westbrook
Griffin
Aldridge
Love
Nash
Paul
Deron
Amare/Melo

From that List, I would put Paul, Kobe/Dirk, Deron (Hate the guy, but on a team with actual players, he probably would have much better numbers. I would have him right at 10, cause I think Blake is good, but I need to see more than dunks (like defense lol), Lemarcus reminds me too much of Bosh when he was in Toronto (As In Bosh is a top 15 player, not top 10), Melo/Amare aren't the best defenders, and Westbrook is too much of a chucker at this point.

One of the most injury plagued players in the game today, rather put Love in there since he doesn't miss many games

PatsSoxKnicks
03-06-2012, 02:25 AM
True... I personally think Pau's fallen a bit though.

He has. He's having a disappointing year, probably due to the trade rumors. However, once that passes and he gets re-focused, I'm sure his play will return to normal levels. Also, since this year has only been 35 odd games, I think you do have to still factor in what players were doing last year. For that reason, I'd still have Pau in the conversation. Based on his play this year, he's probably fallen behind Love and maybe Aldridge but he's still in the conversation IMO.

M.Bibby2.0
03-06-2012, 02:26 AM
IMO. Yes, but I can't see him as the #1 option on a contending team...

PatsSoxKnicks
03-06-2012, 02:26 AM
LOL not even close. Amar'e ****in blows dick this year

Yeah and Melo and Griffin are not top 10 either. I may be a Knicks fan but that doesn't mean I have to blow Melo's dick. He's not been anything resembling top 10 caliber this year.

Sadds The Gr8
03-06-2012, 02:31 AM
1. Lechoke
2. Durant
3. Dwight
4. Kobe/Wade/Rose
7. CP3
8. Love
9. Dirk
10. Westbrook

Cfrey
03-06-2012, 02:35 AM
Yes he is. And might become the greatest PF of all time

THE GIPPER
03-06-2012, 02:36 AM
Yes he is. And might become the greatest PF of all time

he'll never be the defensive presence duncan was

Hawkeye15
03-06-2012, 02:37 AM
LeBron
Durant
Wade
Dwight
Rose
Paul
Bryant
Love
Aldridge
Gasol


my top 10

CoffeeJanitor
03-06-2012, 02:39 AM
IMO. Yes, but I can't see him as the #1 option on a contending team...He is currently 23 and putting up 25 in the game, which is top 5 in scoring for the entire league. He's also one of the most efficient offensive players in the league. I don't see why he can't be a No. 1 option, especially considering how much he has improved year on year.

Aust
03-06-2012, 02:46 AM
He is currently 23 and putting up 25 in the game, which is top 5 in scoring for the entire league. He's also one of the most efficient offensive players in the league. I don't see why he can't be a No. 1 option, especially considering how much he has improved year on year.

I think it's just hard to imagine him as the number 1 option. I think he's capable of it though, dudes got potential and youth

i.got.the.nutz
03-06-2012, 02:49 AM
LeBron
Durant
Wade
Dwight
Rose
Paul
Bryant
Love
Aldridge
Gasol


my top 10

You would take Gasol over Deron Williams right now?

Hawkeye15
03-06-2012, 02:50 AM
You would take Gasol over Deron Williams right now?

fair enough. I think spots 8-12 are very much matter of opinion. Westbrook deserves a case too.

shep33
03-06-2012, 02:55 AM
Lebron
Durant
Kobe
Wade
Dwight
Rose

I think these 6 (no particular order) are probably locks.

Last 4 spots IMO:

-CP3
-Dirk
-Deron
-Last Spot: Love...and I might get bashed for this, but LMA is pretty special. He doesn't get much attention but if he played in a proper pick and roll system, with a pick and roll pg...wow.

PatsSoxKnicks
03-06-2012, 02:55 AM
LeBron
Durant
Wade
Dwight
Rose
Paul
Bryant
Love
Aldridge
Gasol


my top 10

No Dirk? I realize the guy is having a disappointing season but before the season, he was undisputedly top 10. Also, Gasol has been just as disappointing. I think Dirk still deserves to be in there, at least until the end of the season, where if his play is still not warranting top 10 consideration, he could be removed.

Baller1
03-06-2012, 03:06 AM
He has. He's having a disappointing year, probably due to the trade rumors. However, once that passes and he gets re-focused, I'm sure his play will return to normal levels. Also, since this year has only been 35 odd games, I think you do have to still factor in what players were doing last year. For that reason, I'd still have Pau in the conversation. Based on his play this year, he's probably fallen behind Love and maybe Aldridge but he's still in the conversation IMO.

Fair enough, I can agree with that. But he's a *****, and I hate the Lakers; therefore, LMA and Love get the nod.

Jewelz0376
03-06-2012, 03:10 AM
in no particular order I got

kobe
lebron
wade
cp3
d12
durant
dwill
rose
westbrook
Dirk

Love is having abetter year than Dirk obviously, but I'd still take Dirk over Love...Plus Dirk is starting to get his grove back a little

I have Love between 10-15...

CudiOnMyiPod
03-06-2012, 05:07 AM
He's between 9-13 but he isn't the top PF though

People have to take winning into account too, not just stats.

My top 10 this year is:

1. LeBron James
2. Dwight Howard
3. Kevin Durant
4. Dwyane Wade
5. Chris Paul
6. Derrick Rose
7. Dirk Nowitzki
8. Kobe Bryant
9. Deron Williams
10. Aldridge/Love/Griffin/Gasol/Westbrook

CudiOnMyiPod
03-06-2012, 05:14 AM
Yes he is. And might become the greatest PF of all time

:facepalm: C'mon.. Greatest PF of all time?

Duncan, Malone, Barkley, Nowitzki and Garnett are five that he definitely will not pass.

These players won MVP's, Championships, Finals MVP's, double-digit All Star appearances, double-digit All NBA Teams, scored over 20,000 points, etc...

It is going to be very hard and highly unlikely that Love joins those names. Even top 10 or top 20 PF is a stretch. There have been many great PF over the years.

Of course he is only 23 and has many more years but there is nothing about him that screams legendary hall of famer.

FlyEaglesFly
03-06-2012, 05:22 AM
No, he doesn't play a stitch of defense!

Bruno
03-06-2012, 05:29 AM
yea.

Boozerguy47
03-06-2012, 05:52 AM
Love is easily in the 7-10 range.

naps
03-06-2012, 06:07 AM
One of the most injury plagued players in the game today, rather put Love in there since he doesn't miss many games

:facepalm::facepalm:

He's played 79, 76, 77 games last 3 years. Yeah, he is :rolleyes: Fcuken ***!!

LakersA's49ers
03-06-2012, 06:15 AM
Im not high on D-Will and i think putting dwiggt in the top 4 is ludacris. Legoon, durantula, still kobe(this guys playing excellent ball, and dwayne wade. Dwight at 5 with rose 6, cp3 7, dirk 8, aldridge/love tied 9th. Blake griffins a player that if his knees go out as in greg oden type knees, his main abilities as an athletic bigman are gone with the wind. He better take care of those knees.

naps
03-06-2012, 06:32 AM
He's between 9-13 but he isn't the top PF though

People have to take winning into account too, not just stats.

My top 10 this year is:

1. LeBron James
2. Dwight Howard
3. Kevin Durant
4. Dwyane Wade
5. Chris Paul
6. Derrick Rose
7. Dirk Nowitzki
8. Kobe Bryant
9. Deron Williams
10. Aldridge/Love/Griffin/Gasol/Westbrook

If you just take this year into account, Dirk in no way, form, or shape is better than Love. He absolutely has no shot over Love this year.


:facepalm: C'mon.. Greatest PF of all time?

+1.

I also don't see him get that far, specially with his defense. In my book, two way players always get the preference.



Duncan, Malone, Barkley, Nowitzki and Garnett are five that he definitely will not pass.

These players won MVP's, Championships, Finals MVP's, double-digit All Star appearances, double-digit All NBA Teams, scored over 20,000 points, etc...It is going to be very hard and highly unlikely that Love joins those names.


He will probably never pass Duncan or KG but it's certainly possible for him to surpass any other power-forward in the history.


Even top 10 or top 20 PF is a stretch. There have been many great PF over the years.


Not sure if serious. If so then :facepalm: X100000000000000000000....



Of course he is only 23 and has many more years but there is nothing about him that screams legendary hall of famer.

He's a better player than Dirk was at the same age. If Dirk can become a HOF, then what makes you think he can't? I understand you are a Dirk fanboy but your hate for other current power-forwards is absurd.

Don't hate.

VikesTwinsWolve
03-06-2012, 09:36 AM
IMO. Yes, but I can't see him as the #1 option on a contending team...

haha watch a couple games instead of reading last years most famous PSD lines...:facepalm:

Hawkeye15
03-06-2012, 09:54 AM
No Dirk? I realize the guy is having a disappointing season but before the season, he was undisputedly top 10. Also, Gasol has been just as disappointing. I think Dirk still deserves to be in there, at least until the end of the season, where if his play is still not warranting top 10 consideration, he could be removed.

again, I whipped it together in 2 seconds. Spots 8-12 are interchangeable to some degree. Tony Parker even has a case. But I think Love is in the top 6-7 this year.

Hawkeye15
03-06-2012, 10:04 AM
#4 is scoring
#2 in rebounding
#1 in double doubles
#1 in free throws made
#3 in free throw attempts
#1 in minutes
#6 in PER (#1 amongst PF's)
#3 in win shares
#3 in offensive win shares
#18 in defensive win shares
#4 in EWA
#23 in three's made
#2 in pts/rebs/ast per game combined
#2 in NBA.com efficiency

The list goes on. The Wolves are over .500, so the crappy team thing is gone. Please demonstrate how Love doesn't have a bid at being a top 10 player THIS season.

CudiOnMyiPod
03-06-2012, 10:04 AM
If you just take this year into account, Dirk in no way, form, or shape is better than Love. He absolutely has no shot over Love this year.



+1.

I also don't see him get that far, specially with his defense. In my book, two way players always get the preference.




He will probably never pass Duncan or KG but it's certainly possible for him to surpass any other power-forward in the history.



Not sure if serious. If so then :facepalm: X100000000000000000000....



He's a better player than Dirk was at the same age. If Dirk can become a HOF, then what makes you think he can't? I understand you are a Dirk fanboy but your hate for other current power-forwards is absurd.

Don't hate.

RIGHT NOW you can't say Love is a top 20 PF of all time. He's been doing this for 30 something games. If we come back in 5 years and he's been doing around what he has done this season and he's helped Minny win, then yeah he will be top 15 probably.

I don't hate other PF. Duncan I hate (lol I just have to due to Spurs) but I respect him nearly more then I respect Jordan, Bird, Magic, etc...

I don't hate Bosh, I just think it's funny that some Heat fans think he is by far better than Dirk. Same goes for Gasol.

I don't hate Love. I'm glad that a new up and coming star isn't a thug or a troublemaker. I just stated that he is pretty much a top 10 player at age 23.

I don't think Dirk gets the recognition that he deserves, even after winning a ring.

He had a slow start but the past 10-15 games he has been vintage Dirk so for people to say that he is done and isn't a top 10 player anymore, I think it's disrespectful.

Longhornfan1234
03-06-2012, 10:06 AM
1. LeBron
2. KD
3. Kobe
4. Howard
5. Rose
6. CP3
7. Dirk
8. Deron
9. Kevin Love
10. Westbrook

Jint.
03-06-2012, 10:08 AM
yes.. top PF in the league

BklynKnicks3
03-06-2012, 10:11 AM
Melo is top 5

Longhornfan1234
03-06-2012, 10:13 AM
melo is top 5




hahahhahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha...

Big G.R.I.T.
03-06-2012, 10:14 AM
Idk how you can't say love is a top 10 player. He is putting up crazy numbers this year and is doing it on a not so great team. He's 4th in scoring and 2nd in rebounding and remember he's still very young. So by saying that I would way its
1. LeBron
2. Durant
3. Rose
4. Kobe
5. Love
6. Howard
7. Wade
8. CP3
9. Dirk
10. Carmelo

BK-TY
03-06-2012, 10:20 AM
No he's a top 5. Best PF in the league right now.

Hawkeye15
03-06-2012, 10:24 AM
Why is anyone talking about Love as an all timer? We are talking about this year. To get into the top 20 he has to do this a LOOOOOT longer.

iliketurtles24
03-06-2012, 10:36 AM
Why is anyone talking about Love as an all timer? We are talking about this year. To get into the top 20 he has to do this a LOOOOOT longer.
To many OOOOO's hawk... the word you mean is LOT.

todu82
03-06-2012, 10:59 AM
Yes he is, he's closer to #10 than #1 but he is still a top 10 player in the NBA.

Hawkeye15
03-06-2012, 11:01 AM
Yes he is, he's closer to #10 than #1 but he is still a top 10 player in the NBA.

oh for sure. I think the highest he has a case for is #5-6, but he is probably not knocking the top 3 out of there in the next year or two. Who knows where he may eventually wind up.

sb123
03-06-2012, 11:01 AM
Best PF, top 10, yeah.

dee279
03-06-2012, 11:03 AM
People keep talking about winning, and Love couldnt be the number 1 option on a winning team. The T Wolves are above .500 and he is the main reason. Hes a good shooter, great rebounder. Really all he needs to do is work on his defense and he would be an all around great player. He also needs a go to move. When he gets that, he will be an even better scorer and right now hes top 5 in scoring. I would take him over any PF in the league right now. His effort he puts in is what i would want in a player.

dee279
03-06-2012, 11:05 AM
Oh and yes he is top 10. Probably would be #10 for me.

justinnum1
03-06-2012, 11:07 AM
1. Lebron
.
.
.
2. Dwight
3. Wade
4. Durant
5. CP3
6. Kobe
7. Rose
.
.
.
8-13. Dirk Nowitzki
8-13. Kevin Love
8-13. Russell Westbrook
8-13. Blake Griffin
8-13. LaMarcus Aldridge
8-13. Deron Williams

Debateable, but arguably, yes.
i like this list a lot

kgformvp21
03-06-2012, 11:11 AM
If kevin love isnt a top ten player then all hope for mankind is lost!

Weezy
03-06-2012, 11:16 AM
Yea he is playing well this year and his team is finally winning games. Not sure how people can argue that he isn't a top 10 this season.

Longhornfan1234
03-06-2012, 11:18 AM
How is Wade better than Kobe? Kobe has better stats than Wade this year.

Kobe destroyed Wade offensively and defensively on sunday.

AI4MVP
03-06-2012, 11:23 AM
Hell yeah. Hes a top ten player and its not even up for debate. I dont wanna hear it.

dee279
03-06-2012, 11:25 AM
Kobe doesnt have Lebron on his team so his stats will look better. And if you watch most Laker Heat games, wade usually does better then Kobe. More especially when Lebron wasnt there.

UPRock
03-06-2012, 11:27 AM
LeBron
Dwight
Durant
Wade
Kobe
CP3
Rose
Dirk
D Will
Love

justinnum1
03-06-2012, 11:28 AM
how is wade better than kobe? kobe has better stats than wade this year.

Kobe destroyed wade offensively and defensively on sunday.

per;)

wjmoffatt
03-06-2012, 11:35 AM
top 10 player NOW. (no order)

Durant
Rose
James
Wade
Dirk
Love
Howard
CP3
Kobe
Westbrook

D.Will doesn't make my list because the Nets are horrible, yes i know they have no one around him worth mentioning but look what CP3 did with that Hornets team and they had less talent last year than now. DWill can score like no other but his defense, rebounding, and speed aren't better than Westbrook's.

thekmp211
03-06-2012, 11:41 AM
for sure. best 4 in the league. he abused LMA the other night.

bron
howard
rose
durant
paul
kobe
wade

are sure-fire better players. love is right there.

CudiOnMyiPod
03-06-2012, 11:46 AM
Melo is top 5

Maybe top 5 on his own team lol

shep33
03-06-2012, 12:03 PM
Kobe doesnt have Lebron on his team so his stats will look better. And if you watch most Laker Heat games, wade usually does better then Kobe. More especially when Lebron wasnt there.

I disagree. Lebron and Wade get each other easier shots. They take pressure off each other with the ball, enabling them to be more efficient scorers. Playing with a superior wing IMO, is better than playing with a superior big who clogs the lane.

WSU Tony
03-06-2012, 12:04 PM
Holy hell the Timberwolves have a top 10 NBA player.

DragonJaii
03-06-2012, 12:59 PM
Kevin love is a top ten player right now.

4wanderingeyes
03-06-2012, 01:02 PM
What? Lin isnt on any ones lists? Hard to believe with all the media coverage about him.

WSU Tony
03-06-2012, 01:46 PM
lol. Know what else they aren't talking about? His lowering FG% or his 1.3 A/TO ratio the past 5 games.

Swashcuff
03-06-2012, 01:52 PM
I've been away from PSD for quite some time so I've been just waiting to hear what the Love naysayers are coming with now. Man is a top 10 player and is only getting better with every game he plays.

mRc08
03-06-2012, 01:55 PM
Lebron
Durant
Howard
Rose
Paul
Wade
Kobe
D-Will
Dirk
Love

I think he belongs in the top ten. but you can swap him out with westbrook, rondo, blake, etc. But if i was starting a team, i'd want him over these guys. He just puts up numbers.

Hawkeye15
03-06-2012, 02:21 PM
How is Wade better than Kobe? Kobe has better stats than Wade this year.

Kobe destroyed Wade offensively and defensively on sunday.

http://www.basketball-reference.com/play-index/pcm_finder.cgi?request=1&sum=0&p1=wadedw01&y1=2012&p2=bryanko01&y2=2012


There stats are not the same. Kobe is chucking away to get his numbers.

Hawkeye15
03-06-2012, 02:23 PM
I disagree. Lebron and Wade get each other easier shots. They take pressure off each other with the ball, enabling them to be more efficient scorers. Playing with a superior wing IMO, is better than playing with a superior big who clogs the lane.

They both help, but the Lakers offense and complete lack of ball handlers outside Kobe is, at least in his own mind, forcing him to carry the load shooting wise.

Hawkeye15
03-06-2012, 02:24 PM
I've been away from PSD for quite some time so I've been just waiting to hear what the Love naysayers are coming with now. Man is a top 10 player and is only getting better with every game he plays.

I noticed you hadn't been around. Where have you been dude?

Swashcuff
03-06-2012, 02:24 PM
http://www.basketball-reference.com/play-index/pcm_finder.cgi?request=1&sum=0&p1=wadedw01&y1=2012&p2=bryanko01&y2=2012


There stats are not the same. Kobe is chucking away to get his numbers.

Also Wade got off to a horrendous start (by his standards) while he was playing injured. All kudos to Kobe from me however chucking or no chucking what he's able to do at his age and with the baggage he's carrying is simply amazing IMO. He's not better than Wade at the moment but the mere fact that there is actually a discussion speaks volumes to Kobe's skill.

Hawkeye15
03-06-2012, 02:28 PM
Lebron
Durant
Howard
Rose
Paul
Wade
Kobe
D-Will
Dirk
Love

I think he belongs in the top ten. but you can swap him out with westbrook, rondo, blake, etc. But if i was starting a team, i'd want him over these guys. He just puts up numbers.

There isn't a case for Blake over Love. I wouldn't take Rondo over him either. And this season, Dirk and D-Will are behind him. Its tough when the older guys start their slight regression, and the young guys pick up steam giving a younger guy just now doing it the spot over the guy who has been doing it a while, but is either having a down year, or getting older. Because of that, I wouldn't bash anyone who put Dirk ahead of Love as the best PF. But I think everyone would agree that over the past 38-40 games, Kevin Love is the best PF in the game. This year.

Hawkeye15
03-06-2012, 02:38 PM
Also Wade got off to a horrendous start (by his standards) while he was playing injured. All kudos to Kobe from me however chucking or no chucking what he's able to do at his age and with the baggage he's carrying is simply amazing IMO. He's not better than Wade at the moment but the mere fact that there is actually a discussion speaks volumes to Kobe's skill.

The reason I have Kobe in my top 10 ever is his longevity. 14 seasons as a top 5 player? Impossible in my lifetime.

Hawkeye15
03-06-2012, 02:39 PM
I will post it again:

#4 is scoring
#2 in rebounding
#1 in double doubles
#1 in free throws made
#3 in free throw attempts
#1 in minutes
#6 in PER (#1 amongst PF's)
#3 in win shares
#3 in offensive win shares
#18 in defensive win shares
#4 in EWA
#23 in three's made
#2 in pts/rebs/ast per game combined
#2 in NBA.com efficiency

The list goes on. The Wolves are over .500, so the crappy team thing is gone. Please demonstrate how Love doesn't have a bid at being a top 10 player THIS season.

M.Bibby2.0
03-06-2012, 02:45 PM
haha watch a couple games instead of reading last years most famous PSD lines...:facepalm:

I'm actually judging based on his teams record the past 2 years with him as the #1 option (albeit they are a lot better this year).. It's not ludacris to say he needs another superstar player to contend, not everyone is a dirk and takes a team with no other all-star calibre players to a championship. Regardless, it's my opinion and I doubt it'll be proven wrong any time soon.
I guess another reason I think so is that every other player in the NBA that is considered top ten player is on a PLAYOFF team.

that being said, he's still a top ten player, fantastic talent, but needs more help then rubio and pek to contend.

justinnum1
03-06-2012, 02:59 PM
I will post it again:

#4 is scoring
#2 in rebounding
#1 in double doubles
#1 in free throws made
#3 in free throw attempts
#1 in minutes
#6 in PER (#1 amongst PF's)
#3 in win shares
#3 in offensive win shares
#18 in defensive win shares
#4 in EWA
#23 in three's made
#2 in pts/rebs/ast per game combined
#2 in NBA.com efficiency

The list goes on. The Wolves are over .500, so the crappy team thing is gone. Please demonstrate how Love doesn't have a bid at being a top 10 player THIS season.

Of course he does, only people who are saying otherwise are clueless.

Meaze_Gibson
03-06-2012, 03:33 PM
Is he a top 10 player? I think he bottoms out around 8-10.
I think criteria for top player:
1. Lead your Team to respectability
2. Show up in the Playoffs (pressure)
3. Two Way Player (offense and defense)

Noticing not a lot of guys meet this standard though.

Lebron
Kobe
Rose
Wade
Dirk
Durant
CP3
Dwill
Dwight
Love
Melo

Kashmir13579
03-06-2012, 03:43 PM
Amar'e and 'Melo aren't even close to the top 10 this year. :confused:

Hawkeye15
03-06-2012, 03:44 PM
Amar'e and 'Melo aren't even close to the top 10 this year. :confused:

They shouldn't be man. Amare is having a really bad year for him, and Melo has missed too much time.

da ThRONe
03-06-2012, 03:46 PM
Yeah I think this year Love has found his way into the top 10 list.

Chronz
03-06-2012, 03:52 PM
There isn't a case for Blake over Love.
Ive seen some good ones made for him so I disagree.


I wouldn't take Rondo over him either. And this season, Dirk and D-Will are behind him.
Dirk isnt behind him until its said and done.

Hawkeye15
03-06-2012, 04:08 PM
Ive seen some good ones made for him so I disagree.


Dirk isnt behind him until its said and done.

Besides physical upside, what reason would anyone pick Blake over Love?

By "its all said and done", do you simply mean the rest of this season?

Hawkeye15
03-06-2012, 04:09 PM
Love just became the first player in history to have back to back 35+/10+ games with 5 three's made.

Meaze_Gibson
03-06-2012, 04:13 PM
Amar'e and 'Melo aren't even close to the top 10 this year. :confused:

Yeah, they really aren't. But Melo is only other player other than Rose and Dirk to never miss a playoff so I figured it was worth something.

amos1er
03-06-2012, 04:16 PM
Kobe
Wade
Howard
Durant
Lebron
Rose
CP3
Dirk
Williams
Love


For the playoffs however, I would have a different top 10

Kobe
Wade
Dirk
Durant
Howard
CP3
Rose
Lebron
Williams
Duncan - Yes, in the playoffs, I would take Duncan still over Love...I might even take Bosh over Love just due to experience

4wanderingeyes
03-06-2012, 04:19 PM
Love just became the first player in history to have back to back 35+/10+ games with 5 three's made.

He almost made it a back to back 40/10 game

Cfrey
03-06-2012, 04:23 PM
:facepalm: C'mon.. Greatest PF of all time?

Duncan, Malone, Barkley, Nowitzki and Garnett are five that he definitely will not pass.

These players won MVP's, Championships, Finals MVP's, double-digit All Star appearances, double-digit All NBA Teams, scored over 20,000 points, etc...

It is going to be very hard and highly unlikely that Love joins those names. Even top 10 or top 20 PF is a stretch. There have been many great PF over the years.

Of course he is only 23 and has many more years but there is nothing about him that screams legendary hall of famer.

I'm assuming this is why you called me the biggest homer on the site in the other thread which I'm sorry but you can't even call me that.........

What I said is he COULD become the greatest PF of all time.. Not he WOULD... He COULD...

When was the last time a PF averaged 25 and 14???????? That's ridiculous and if Kevin Love is consistent and does some things in the playoffs throughout his career its a possibility..

I didn't say anywhere that its GOING to happen

PhillyFaninLA
03-06-2012, 04:24 PM
Wierd thing about a guy like Kevin Love is that is someone asked me outright is he a top 10 player I'd probably say yes but if you ask me to list the 10 best players I probably won't think about him.

amos1er
03-06-2012, 04:26 PM
He almost made it a back to back 40/10 game

Regular season and Playoffs are totally different. Love is definitely a regular season dynamo and in the top ten barely. In the playoffs however, everyone steps up and the vets that weren't playing much in the regular season step up and play more minutes. intensity is much higher and experience and decision making become the deciding factor in winning or losing. As far as the playoffs, Love is not a top ten player.

mRc08
03-06-2012, 04:26 PM
There isn't a case for Blake over Love. I wouldn't take Rondo over him either. And this season, Dirk and D-Will are behind him. Its tough when the older guys start their slight regression, and the young guys pick up steam giving a younger guy just now doing it the spot over the guy who has been doing it a while, but is either having a down year, or getting older. Because of that, I wouldn't bash anyone who put Dirk ahead of Love as the best PF. But I think everyone would agree that over the past 38-40 games, Kevin Love is the best PF in the game. This year.

I agree and thats why i had to have him in my top ten. He is having an unreal year and is doing better than anyone expected.

AIRMAR72
03-06-2012, 04:26 PM
yes the man is top 10 talent and like they say its not about jumping out the gym its about putting the ball in the basket and kevin love is great at that

mRc08
03-06-2012, 04:28 PM
Regular season and Playoffs are totally different. Love is definitely a regular season dynamo and in the top ten barely. In the playoffs however, everyone steps up and the vets that weren't playing much in the regular season step up and play more minutes. intensity is much higher and experience and decision making become the deciding factor in winning or losing. As far as the playoffs, Love is not a top ten player.

This is kinda hard to agree with considering we haven't seen love in the playoffs. i get what your saying and agree, but don't we have to wait and see love in a playoff series before saying he isn't?

Cfrey
03-06-2012, 04:29 PM
Regular season and Playoffs are totally different. Love is definitely a regular season dynamo and in the top ten barely. In the playoffs however, everyone steps up and the vets that weren't playing much in the regular season step up and play more minutes. intensity is much higher and experience and decision making become the deciding factor in winning or losing. As far as the playoffs, Love is not a top ten player.

We haven't even seen Love in the playoffs so your statement is ludacris...

Just because you said that I hope Love averages 40 and 20 throughout his entire playoff career and goes down as the GOAT

TRUETAMPAFAN
03-06-2012, 04:30 PM
yes he is. Mr. Love is a walking double double and has totally reenergized minnesota. his pts per game have been increasing every yr in the league as well as his rebounds. he plays the game its supposed to be played and on top of that he can score from long distance as well as inside. he is driven and focused which a lot of players in the nba arnt and i will even say he will one day win the MVP award. Love may not be top 5 right now, but hes definitely top ten.

amos1er
03-06-2012, 04:32 PM
This is kinda hard to agree with considering we haven't seen love in the playoffs. i get what your saying and agree, but don't we have to wait and see love in a playoff series before saying he isn't?

Its either way you want to look at it. He could either prove me right or prove me wrong. We haven't seen him in the playoffs yet, so it would be impossible to gauge where to put him. Therefore I would not include him in my top ten playoff players. For all we know he could be just be a regular season dynamo like Lebron and just shrink in big moments when it counts. Or he could be the next coming of Duncan...who knows yet. So hard to judge people based on the regular season.

amos1er
03-06-2012, 04:35 PM
We haven't even seen Love in the playoffs so your statement is ludacris...

Just because you said that I hope Love averages 40 and 20 throughout his entire playoff career and goes down as the GOAT

Its no insult to him....its just that no one has seen how he does when its win or go home. As far as regular season I have him ranked at number 10 for this season so far.

mRc08
03-06-2012, 04:36 PM
Its either way you want to look at it. He could either prove me right or prove me wrong. We haven't seen him in the playoffs yet, so it would be impossible to gauge where to put him. Therefore I would not include him in my top ten playoff players. For all we know he could be just be a regular season dynamo like Lebron and just shrink in big moments when it counts. Or he could be the next coming of Duncan...who knows yet. So hard to judge people based on the regular season.

I agree here. With that said i think his game will translate well into the playoffs, but we won't know until they get there. I am curious as to who your top ten playoffs players are right now?

amos1er
03-06-2012, 04:41 PM
I agree here. With that said i think his game will translate well into the playoffs, but we won't know until they get there. I am curious as to who your top ten playoffs players are right now?

I listed them about a page ago.

mRc08
03-06-2012, 04:45 PM
Kobe
Wade
Howard
Durant
Lebron
Rose
CP3
Dirk
Williams
Love


For the playoffs however, I would have a different top 10

Kobe
Wade
Dirk
Durant
Howard
CP3
Rose
Lebron
Williams
Duncan - Yes, in the playoffs, I would take Duncan still over Love...I might even take Bosh over Love just due to experience

Gotcha. I gotta say that i would put peirce on this list somewhere, maybe in williams spot. The guy is clutch and was the biggest reason the celtics won IMO. Can't really deny timmy on this list either.

amos1er
03-06-2012, 04:49 PM
Gotcha. I gotta say that i would put peirce on this list somewhere, maybe in williams spot. The guy is clutch and was the biggest reason the celtics won IMO. Can't really deny timmy on this list either.

Yep, I would agree. Pierce in place of Williams is fair.

Slimsim
03-06-2012, 04:53 PM
Hell yea

Wolfman01
03-06-2012, 04:58 PM
Kevin Love proves that hes the best power foward right now without a question. Hes one of the top 5 player in the league at scoring and his efficient is beyond great. So yes hes a top 10 player in the league right now.

Meaze_Gibson
03-06-2012, 05:02 PM
Yep, I would agree. Pierce in place of Williams is fair.

Nah not Williams!..Same person who knocks out Nuggets without starting sf and c! Same person who knocks out Tmac and Yao despite them having hc advantage! Same Person who wills teams to at least the second round! I'd take out Durant before i take away williams

mRc08
03-06-2012, 05:07 PM
lol good points good points. Its hard to create a list of ten with some of the playoff performances we have seen.

topdog
03-06-2012, 05:10 PM
I will simply say that he is better than Blake. Any of you who have Griffin ahead of Love are kidding yourselves. Maybe in a few years, but Blake has a lot of developing to do.

RCarlson85
03-06-2012, 05:11 PM
If he's not top 10 right now, he's pretty close in my opinion. I think he is the best PF in the game so that has to put you in the top 10 I would think. He's one of the top scorers in the NBA and also one of the top rebounders. I don't think I could come up with 10 players who are better than him.

Lake_Show2416
03-06-2012, 05:23 PM
Top 15

Hawkeye15
03-06-2012, 05:27 PM
Regular season and Playoffs are totally different. Love is definitely a regular season dynamo and in the top ten barely. In the playoffs however, everyone steps up and the vets that weren't playing much in the regular season step up and play more minutes. intensity is much higher and experience and decision making become the deciding factor in winning or losing. As far as the playoffs, Love is not a top ten player.

I think that is why many are hesitant to put him in that top 10 category. He hasn't been to the playoffs yet, so we don't know if his numbers will drop, ala KG, or climb, ala Barkley.

And I have no problem with that stance honestly. I too wonder what he will look like when the games really matter. But he is a top 10 player this regular season, that much I am sure of.

Corey
03-06-2012, 05:28 PM
I'd throw Dirk in there to get to a top 8. He's been having a down year but it was just a year ago where he was leading the Mavs to a championship.

Love, Aldridge and Pau probably battle it out for the last 2 spots. Throw Westbrook and Deron in there too.

Pau top 10? :eyebrow:

RuBeasLoveDwill
03-06-2012, 05:29 PM
Kobe
Wade
Howard
Durant
Lebron
Rose
CP3
Dirk
Williams
Love


For the playoffs however, I would have a different top 10

Kobe
Wade
Dirk
Durant
Howard
CP3
Rose
Lebron
Williams
Duncan - Yes, in the playoffs, I would take Duncan still over Love...I might even take Bosh over Love just due to experience
So you have the SAME players in the top ten in the regular season as your playoff top ten....but Love for Duncan?

Remember we are talking about RIGHT NOW, not past. So lets looks at Duncan's playoff numbers last year:
ppg:12.7 reb:10.5 ft:10/16

I'm pretty sure if Love had those numbers in the playoffs, even after just 6 games, he would even admit he had bad games.

Duncan over Love today? seriously? He's not even close to the best player on his team anymore, I bet Duncan would even pick Love over himself

Hawkeye15
03-06-2012, 05:29 PM
We haven't even seen Love in the playoffs so your statement is ludacris...

Just because you said that I hope Love averages 40 and 20 throughout his entire playoff career and goes down as the GOAT

Why is it ludacris? The other top 10 have all been to the playoffs, some tons of times, and thrived. Love needs to show he can not only make the playoffs, but play well to be an automatic fixture in the top 10. Though as I have stated, he is one of the top 10 players of this regular season no doubt. Some need more evidence. I needed it after last year regarding Rose and Deron. I just couldn't put Rose over Deron last year, because it was Rose's first year as a top 10 player. Same thing this year with Love versus Dirk. I have my personal opinion, but if another fan needs to see it happen longer, so be it. I have been guilty of that as well.

Hawkeye15
03-06-2012, 05:32 PM
Kobe
Wade
Howard
Durant
Lebron
Rose
CP3
Dirk
Williams
Love


For the playoffs however, I would have a different top 10

Kobe
Wade
Dirk
Durant
Howard
CP3
Rose
Lebron
Williams
Duncan - Yes, in the playoffs, I would take Duncan still over Love...I might even take Bosh over Love just due to experience

You seriously have Kobe the best player in the NBA? Cmon man. And LeBron all the way down there for playoffs? Sorry, but you are letting a couple of series sway your entire position if that is really how you feel. LeBron's playoff numbers have been awesome.

Cfrey
03-06-2012, 05:33 PM
Top 15

how can a player be only top 15 when the last player to average 25 and 15 was Kareem Abdul...

and love is like 1 board away from that mark

Cfrey
03-06-2012, 05:36 PM
You seriously have Kobe the best player in the NBA? Cmon man. And LeBron all the way down there for playoffs? Sorry, but you are letting a couple of series sway your entire position if that is really how you feel. LeBron's playoff numbers have been awesome.

people forget lebron averaged 38 points during a playoff series.. was it verse the pistons??

and also people forget lebron held rose to 9 percent from the field in the 4th quarter in last years playoffs..

its okay hawk some people are just stupid

justinnum1
03-06-2012, 05:37 PM
people forget lebron averaged 38 points during a playoff series.. was it verse the pistons??

and also people forget lebron held rose to 9 percent from the field in the 4th quarter in last years playoffs..

its okay hawk some people are just stupid

Well said. If bron isnt top3 on a list i cant take it seriously.

Cfrey
03-06-2012, 05:42 PM
Why is it ludacris? The other top 10 have all been to the playoffs, some tons of times, and thrived. Love needs to show he can not only make the playoffs, but play well to be an automatic fixture in the top 10. Though as I have stated, he is one of the top 10 players of this regular season no doubt. Some need more evidence. I needed it after last year regarding Rose and Deron. I just couldn't put Rose over Deron last year, because it was Rose's first year as a top 10 player. Same thing this year with Love versus Dirk. I have my personal opinion, but if another fan needs to see it happen longer, so be it. I have been guilty of that as well.

because you don't score 42 points and then follow it up with a 39 and 17 performance against arguably the two other top PFs in the league and Loves biggest position rivalries... (blake and aldrige)

playoffs or not you dont do that and not be in the top 10 lol

Lake_Show2416
03-06-2012, 05:49 PM
In NO particular order I think all of these players are better at this point

Kobe
CP3
Lebron
Wade
Durant
Dwight
Rose
Dirk
D.Will
Melo, Stop hating (chemistry isn't easy)
Aldridge

Zach Randolph, is always forgotten simply cuz he's injured but he showed he can put up the numbers & has a killer clutch instinct that is extremely rare in big man

Kevin Love is a beast, I think he has a great chance at being a top 10 player but at this point of his career he isn't, his defense is a concern, as well as his post skills in the paint

JasonJohnHorn
03-06-2012, 05:55 PM
If there was a draft of all NBA players right now, the first person I would pick would be Kevin Love. His talent makes him easy to build around. Outisde of Dwight, he's the best rebounded in the league, and his offensive skill set is amazing. The only guy I would think of picking up before Love is Dwight because of his defence.

Does that mean I think he's the best? No. Just the easiest to build around. Is LBJ and Kobe better players than Love? Yes, I think so. Is Wade having a better season than Love? NO!

Love is a beast. He is the best player at his position, and the other positions aren't deep enough to bump him out of the top ten.

Hawkeye15
03-06-2012, 05:59 PM
people forget lebron averaged 38 points during a playoff series.. was it verse the pistons??

and also people forget lebron held rose to 9 percent from the field in the 4th quarter in last years playoffs..

its okay hawk some people are just stupid

Selective memory dude.

http://www.basketball-reference.com/play-index/pcm_finder.cgi?request=1&sum=1&p1=bryanko01&y1=2012&p2=nowitdi01&y2=2012&p3=jamesle01&y3=2012&p4=paulch01&y4=2012&p5=anthoca01&y5=2012&p6=wadedw01&y6=2012

Look at the playoff numbers. Before you go, "no rings, no rings!", its simple. LeBron is awesome in the playoffs. He just choked it away last year. If you are going to judge a player off 1 or 2 series, can I play that game?? Pretty please??

Hawkeye15
03-06-2012, 06:01 PM
because you don't score 42 points and then follow it up with a 39 and 17 performance against arguably the two other top PFs in the league and Loves biggest position rivalries... (blake and aldrige)

playoffs or not you dont do that and not be in the top 10 lol

Dude we are on the same side. I have him top 7. But I am simply saying I get why some others need more proof (longer sample size) before they move him over a guy who is aging and been doing it forever. I get that. Not that I personally agree with it here.

ChiSox219
03-06-2012, 06:18 PM
There are more than 10 players I would take over Love but I really enjoy watching him play.

amos1er
03-06-2012, 06:22 PM
You seriously have Kobe the best player in the NBA? Cmon man. And LeBron all the way down there for playoffs? Sorry, but you are letting a couple of series sway your entire position if that is really how you feel. LeBron's playoff numbers have been awesome.

Against weak competition Lebron thrives. He took down a crippled Boston team, and a Bulls team that saw Rose's first playoff birth. Not too impressive. His next notable playoffs win was against again, a broken down Detroit team where Mcdyess (their only post defender) had fouled out and later we found out that Rasheed quit on the team due to locker room issues.

When it comes to padding stats against the weaker teams, Lebron is the man. Like we saw on team USA, he had incredible numbers against the lesser teams, then when they played against Spain, he again shrank. I do not see the Heat as a contender to win it all. Any team Lebron is on is forced to run a specific system that caters to his stat padding. It will work against the weak teams and the mediocre ones, but the Heat as we have already seen, will fall to the elite team under the stat pad Lebron system. How long will Wade be cool with running this system? If they fail again this year doing it Lebron's way I'm sure that Wade will begin to question him and so will Bosh.

You have to agree that from a statistical standpoint, Big O and Wilt were the top of the heap. That said, Lebron is right in their company. Wilt could have won more rings, but didn't because of his concern for stats. It wasn't until 67 where he got more of his teammates involved, that he finally won. He also won later in his career with West as a Laker, again he played more of team ball. All the years he put up his legendary stats, he didn't win. It wasn't until he sacrificed his stats that he was able to do what was best for the team and win.

Oscar didn't win till later in his career. Like Wilt, he didn't win anything during his legendary statistical years. Finally, when he realized that individual stats don't equal championships, he got the job done. I'm sure that once Lebron, who is the best talent in the NBA, realizes that individual stats don't equal championships, he will win one too.

amos1er
03-06-2012, 06:25 PM
In NO particular order I think all of these players are better at this point

Kobe
CP3
Lebron
Wade
Durant
Dwight
Rose
Dirk
D.Will
Melo, Stop hating (chemistry isn't easy)
Aldridge

Zach Randolph, is always forgotten simply cuz he's injured but he showed he can put up the numbers & has a killer clutch instinct that is extremely rare in big man

Kevin Love is a beast, I think he has a great chance at being a top 10 player but at this point of his career he isn't, his defense is a concern, as well as his post skills in the paint


Melo doesn't deserve to be in the top ten this year. He is stinking it up in New York. He doesn't have chemistry because he wont adjust his game for the good of the team.

Aldridge over Love is laughable.

howiend
03-06-2012, 06:43 PM
yes, kevin love definitely is and he is still getting better. He is the best rebounder in the game. He is a very good shooter all the way out to the 3pt range. He has become a legitimate closer at the end of games that demands a double team in the post. Every year he has made drastic changes in his game in the off-season and i expect one more off-season surprise when we start next year. An NBA team can win a championship with him as their #1 player.

Chronz
03-06-2012, 06:43 PM
Besides physical upside, what reason would anyone pick Blake over Love?
Umm you mean besides ball handling, defensive versatility, fast break ability, vision, the art of making others better, not much I guess. LOL its not like your talking about Love vs Marcus Camby here. Even Aldridge has a shot at the best PF in the game title.



By "its all said and done", do you simply mean the rest of this season?
Playoffs.

howiend
03-06-2012, 06:44 PM
Love's defense has improved a lot - not a shot blocker but he is athletic.

Chronz
03-06-2012, 06:46 PM
Against weak competition Lebron thrives. He took down a crippled Boston team, and a Bulls team that saw Rose's first playoff birth. Not too impressive. His next notable playoffs win was against again, a broken down Detroit team where Mcdyess (their only post defender) had fouled out and later we found out that Rasheed quit on the team due to locker room issues.

When it comes to padding stats against the weaker teams, Lebron is the man. Like we saw on team USA, he had incredible numbers against the lesser teams, then when they played against Spain, he again shrank. I do not see the Heat as a contender to win it all. Any team Lebron is on is forced to run a specific system that caters to his stat padding. It will work against the weak teams and the mediocre ones, but the Heat as we have already seen, will fall to the elite team under the stat pad Lebron system. How long will Wade be cool with running this system? If they fail again this year doing it Lebron's way I'm sure that Wade will begin to question him and so will Bosh.

You have to agree that from a statistical standpoint, Big O and Wilt were the top of the heap. That said, Lebron is right in their company. Wilt could have won more rings, but didn't because of his concern for stats. It wasn't until 67 where he got more of his teammates involved, that he finally won. He also won later in his career with West as a Laker, again he played more of team ball. All the years he put up his legendary stats, he didn't win. It wasn't until he sacrificed his stats that he was able to do what was best for the team and win.

Oscar didn't win till later in his career. Like Wilt, he didn't win anything during his legendary statistical years. Finally, when he realized that individual stats don't equal championships, he got the job done. I'm sure that once Lebron, who is the best talent in the NBA, realizes that individual stats don't equal championships, he will win one too.

LMFAO you dont know jack **** about NBA's history or LeBron. Big O won because he finally had the team, had nothing to do with his style of play. Same with Wilt, he was able to defer because he actually had teammates to defer to. Had he played that style with the Warriors they dont even make the playoffs. Only a Kobephile would fault Wilt for taking a last place team up against the Celtics.

Bron doesnt have to change a thing, he will win titles playin his style of play. Even Kobe has gotten shut down and cost his team titles.

Chronz
03-06-2012, 06:49 PM
Love's defense has improved a lot - not a shot blocker but he is athletic.
Love is a better defender but he doesnt have Blakes versatility on that end.

amos1er
03-06-2012, 06:50 PM
LMFAO you dont know jack **** about NBA's history or LeBron.

I see your laughing as ignorance and I find it ironic that you're only reply to my detailed post was nothing more than an ad-hominem insult. Typical of a Lebron apologist I suppose. I'm sure you will try to now wow me with your fancy Hollinger data to shut me up. :rolleyes:

Chronz
03-06-2012, 06:52 PM
I see your laughing as ignorance and I find it ironic that you're only reply to my detailed post was nothing more than an ad-hominem insult. Typical of a Lebron apologist I suppose. I'm sure you will try to now wow me with your fancy Hollinger data to shut me up. :rolleyes:
No need, you havent proven anything. You stated your blind opinion, that is all. LMFAO what detailed post?

My opinion is that your wrong, if you want to bring some evidence to actually defend your opinion, thats when you will get an actual response, otherwise I can just as easily disagree.

Chronz
03-06-2012, 06:57 PM
Hey everyone, Big O only won a ring because he stopped stat padding, had nothing to do with that Kareem fella.

amos1er
03-06-2012, 06:57 PM
LMFAO you dont know jack **** about NBA's history or LeBron. Big O won because he finally had the team, had nothing to do with his style of play. Same with Wilt, he was able to defer because he actually had teammates to defer to. Had he played that style with the Warriors they dont even make the playoffs. Only a Kobephile would fault Wilt for taking a last place team up against the Celtics.

Bron doesnt have to change a thing, he will win titles playin his style of play. Even Kobe has gotten shut down and cost his team titles.

Time will tell if Lebron's style of play will work. Then we can say that he only needed a top five player, and a top 15 player as his running mates to make it work..No one in the history of the NBA with Lebron's talent level has ever needed so much help and come up so short while doing so.

The common theme with Big O and Wilt was that during their dominating statistical years, they didn't win ****. Neither did Kobe for that matter. The difference is, when Kobe got some help, he didn't try to go for stats too, he just got the job done. As did Wilt and Big O, thats the big difference, when they got their help, they didn't try to have the same "numbers" that they did before. Once Lebron realizes that, he should have no problem winning with his very very talented roster.

naps
03-06-2012, 06:57 PM
RIGHT NOW you can't say Love is a top 20 PF of all time. He's been doing this for 30 something games. If we come back in 5 years and he's been doing around what he has done this season and he's helped Minny win, then yeah he will be top 15 probably.

I don't hate other PF. Duncan I hate (lol I just have to due to Spurs) but I respect him nearly more then I respect Jordan, Bird, Magic, etc...

I don't hate Bosh, I just think it's funny that some Heat fans think he is by far better than Dirk. Same goes for Gasol.

I don't hate Love. I'm glad that a new up and coming star isn't a thug or a troublemaker. I just stated that he is pretty much a top 10 player at age 23.

I don't think Dirk gets the recognition that he deserves, even after winning a ring.

He had a slow start but the past 10-15 games he has been vintage Dirk so for people to say that he is done and isn't a top 10 player anymore, I think it's disrespectful.

You were talking about all timers. You said Love will never pass Duncan, Garnett, Barkley, Malone, and Dirk. Here is your post:


:facepalm: C'mon.. Greatest PF of all time?

Duncan, Malone, Barkley, Nowitzki and Garnett are five that he definitely will not pass.

These players won MVP's, Championships, Finals MVP's, double-digit All Star appearances, double-digit All NBA Teams, scored over 20,000 points, etc...

It is going to be very hard and highly unlikely that Love joins those names. Even top 10 or top 20 PF is a stretch. There have been many great PF over the years.

Of course he is only 23 and has many more years but there is nothing about him that screams legendary hall of famer.

Reread your post. You clearly said Love can't join those greats and even to 20 is a stretch. Ofcourse, you were not talking about this season there. Stop trying to twist words.

amos1er
03-06-2012, 07:01 PM
Hey everyone, Big O only won a ring because he stopped stat padding, had nothing to do with that Kareem fella.

Big O had enough sense to stop stat padding once he got some help. Lebron is trying to put up the same numbers that he did in Cleveland even with Wade and Bosh on his team. You don't see Wade and Bosh trying to put up the same numbers they did before Lebron got there. How come Wade and Bosh had to sacrifice their stats and Lebron didn't? Pretty egotistical and selfish if you ask me and most likely the reason why the Heat despite having the most talented roster in the NBA, only have the third best record.

amos1er
03-06-2012, 07:04 PM
No need, you havent proven anything. You stated your blind opinion, that is all. LMFAO what detailed post?

My opinion is that your wrong, if you want to bring some evidence to actually defend your opinion, thats when you will get an actual response, otherwise I can just as easily disagree.

I gave examples, if you are too ignorant to notice them, then thats your own fault.

Yes you did disagree, but you did so in an ignorant and arrogant manner. I always noticed that the people who insult others instead of respectfully giving counter arguments, are just intimidated because someone touched a nerve.

Aust
03-06-2012, 07:10 PM
Aldridge over Love does seem laughable. Also for those saying Pau can be a top 10 player, please. Top 15 at best

Anyone else dig Love's badass facial hair?

Chronz
03-06-2012, 07:13 PM
Time will tell if Lebron's style of play will work. Then we can say that he only needed a top five player, and a top 15 player as his running mates to make it work..No one in the history of the NBA with Lebron's talent level has ever needed so much help and come up so short while doing so.
Bosh is top 15? I suppose you could make a case for that, but thats the kind of talent you need when you have Joel as your starting center. Bron has already proven to will inferior teams further than anyone ever has so I dont blame him for trying to build a dynasty. Most champs have had the best team talent wise. MJ had by far the best talent alongside him in the 90's, it prolly doesnt compare to having Wade and Bosh but thats how weak the 90's were. Kobe needed by far the best support a wing player has ever had in order to win his titles. If Bron racks up titles in dominant fashion, thats all that will matter. Lots of players have lost when they should have won, Magic/Bird included.


The common theme with Big O and Wilt was that during their dominating statistical years, they didn't win ****.
They also lost in their least impressive statistical seasons, whats your point? Like why am I blaming Wilt for not being able to win with far inferior teams?The true common theme was that they lost to better teams whos teammates didnt choke as often.


Neither did Kobe for that matter. The difference is, when Kobe got some help, he didn't try to go for stats too, he just got the job done. As did Wilt and Big O, thats the big difference, when they got their help, they didn't try to have the same "numbers" that they did before. Once Lebron realizes that, he should have no problem winning with his very very talented roster.
Bron did too, thats why his #'s fell when he went to Miami, that hes putting up monster #'s again is a result of him acclimating himself with his teammates and still being in his prime. Whereas Oscar was exiting his and still replicating his prior seasons statistical output in some ways.


Wilt has filled a variety of roles throughout his career, not all of it was due to selfishness, he was told to score alot early on to sell tickets, then as he got better teammates and coaching he started playing a team game.

Evolution23
03-06-2012, 07:17 PM
If Blake Griffin is a top 10 player without having won 1 playoff game. Than Kevin Love is too?

Chronz
03-06-2012, 07:17 PM
Big O had enough sense to stop stat padding once he got some help.
False, Big O was exiting his prime and could no longer put up the same #'s. Do you really think Milwaukee couldnt have used his prime production when they were failing to win? They won the first year because it was the year he came closest to matching his prior production before his decline robbed him of the ability, they slipped once he was unable to provide any semblance of those #'s.


Lebron is trying to put up the same numbers that he did in Cleveland even with Wade and Bosh on his team. You don't see Wade and Bosh trying to put up the same numbers they did before Lebron got there. How come Wade and Bosh had to sacrifice their stats and Lebron didn't? Pretty egotistical and selfish if you ask me and most likely the reason why the Heat despite having the most talented roster in the NBA, only have the third best record.

Bosh is underutilized, thats the only thing I agree with. But you have to check out Brons #'s when Wade isnt in the game to truly appreciate how much hes holding back. That hes putting up these #'s despite the skillset overlap with Wade is just a testament to his greatness.


I gave examples, if you are too ignorant to notice them, then thats your own fault.
You gave your opinion of those players, I disagree with your opinion.


Yes you did disagree, but you did so in an ignorant and arrogant manner. I always noticed that the people who insult others instead of respectfully giving counter arguments, are just intimidated because someone touched a nerve.
I dont care how you take it bro, Im speaking my mind and its my opinion that you are talking out of your ***.

Chronz
03-06-2012, 07:18 PM
.

amos1er
03-06-2012, 07:29 PM
Bosh is top 15? I suppose you could make a case for that, but thats the kind of talent you need when you have Joel as your starting center. Bron has already proven to will inferior teams further than anyone ever has so I dont blame him for trying to build a dynasty. Most champs have had the best team talent wise. MJ had by far the best talent alongside him in the 90's, it prolly doesnt compare to having Wade and Bosh but thats how weak the 90's were. Kobe needed by far the best support a wing player has ever had in order to win his titles. If Bron racks up titles in dominant fashion, thats all that will matter. Lots of players have lost when they should have won, Magic/Bird included.

If he racks up the titles. :rolleyes: If is the big word here. When he does and he proves that he can close out a big game against a worthy opponent, your argument will hold more clout.



They also lost in their least impressive statistical seasons, whats your point? Like why am I blaming Wilt for not being able to win with far inferior teams?The true common theme was that they lost to better teams whos teammates didnt choke as often.

I don't remember Lebron's teammates chocking back in the Orlando and Boston series. If I remember correctly, it was Clevland who was the favorites in both series and Lebron who didn't get the job done. Its not like Dwight had the best roster in the league back in 09, yet the Magic upset Clevland even with home court advantage. During the Boston series in 10, Lebron totally gave up. Again, his team was the favorites and had homecourt advantage.



Bron did too, thats why his #'s fell when he went to Miami, that hes putting up monster #'s again is a result of him acclimating himself with his teammates and still being in his prime. Whereas Oscar was exiting his and still replicating his prior seasons statistical output in some ways.

My point is, that Wade and Bosh both are sacrificing their game for the good of the team, why isn't Lebron? Wade could easily demand the ball on every possession so that he could go for triple double every night. I'm sure the Heat could still win with Wade domination statistically and Lebron taking a lesser role. Why does it have to be Wade who sacrifices his game and not Lebron? Its Wade who comes up in the clutch more and is the proven winner. Lebron isn't sacrificing at all, he is just expecting everyone around to to adjust to his style of play so that he can be the man and go for a triple double every night.



Wilt has filled a variety of roles throughout his career, not all of it was due to selfishness, he was told to score alot early on to sell tickets, then as he got better teammates and coaching he started playing a team game.


Once Lebron realizes that his role needs to change, he will finally get a ring.

bluefire7002
03-06-2012, 07:33 PM
Dont know how a lot of people are putting Wade ahead on their list of Kobe and Durant. Wade could not keep up at all against even a 33 y.o. Kobe this past Sunday. And Durant... well he's this years MVP

To Answer the OPs question.. I would say maybe in the next year or so... right now hes definitely in 10-15

Chronz
03-06-2012, 07:43 PM
If he racks up the titles. :rolleyes: If is the big word here. When he does and he proves that he can close out a big game against a worthy opponent, your argument will hold more clout.
Same to you, the guy is 27. You dont know that his style of play results in failure when last year is the first year hes ever had the best team. And even that playoff run represents a greater run than most ever have.



I don't remember Lebron's teammates chocking back in the Orlando and Boston series. If I remember correctly, it was Clevland who was the favorites in both series and Lebron who didn't get the job done. Its not like Dwight had the best roster in the league back in 09, yet the Magic upset Clevland even with home court advantage. During the Boston series in 10, Lebron totally gave up. Again, his team was the favorites and had homecourt advantage.
Thats because your biased blinds you to the fact that Dwight looked like Shaq against Cleveland, but against Kobes front line was totally contained. That has nothing to do with Bron and everything to do with the fact that his team couldnt replicate their regular season success. The Cavs were among the best at defending Centers all year, but couldnt against Dwight.

Celtics had the better team, they just couldnt play that way throughout 82games given the age of their team. Its why they defeated 2 teams that were superior in the regular season and nearly toppled a third in the Finals.




My point is, that Wade and Bosh both are sacrificing their game for the good of the team, why isn't Lebron? Wade could easily demand the ball on every possession so that he could go for triple double every night. I'm sure the Heat could still win with Wade domination statistically and Lebron taking a lesser role. Why does it have to be Wade who sacrifices his game and not Lebron? Its Wade who comes up in the clutch more and is the proven winner. Lebron isn't sacrificing at all, he is just expecting everyone around to to adjust to his style of play so that he can be the man and go for a triple double every night.
False, Wade lacks the durability and youth to dominate in such a fashion, its why Wade puts up the same attempts regardless of whos on the court. This isnt 2006 guy.

Bron with Wade on the court takes 15.8 shots per36, vs 20.6 without Wade.

Wade with Bron on the court takes 19.2 shots per36, vs 19.8 without Bron.


Again you have to watch the Heat play to truly realize how much Bron holds back. If Bron were back in Cleveland where he was the sole guy his #'s would be historically ridiculous instead of merely historical.



Once Lebron realizes that his role needs to change, he will finally get a ring.
Nah, he will win once he increases his stamina or paces himself better.

Kashmir13579
03-06-2012, 07:45 PM
Love just became the first player in history to have back to back 35+/10+ games with 5 three's made.

Does this kind of logic work for every player? How do you differentiate which historically-significant stat-lines and streaks show how good a player is?

Hawkeye15
03-06-2012, 07:55 PM
Umm you mean besides ball handling, defensive versatility, fast break ability, vision, the art of making others better, not much I guess. LOL its not like your talking about Love vs Marcus Camby here. Even Aldridge has a shot at the best PF in the game title.



Playoffs.

Love's ball handling has never been a problem. Its not a weakness. Blake is an awful defender dude, cmon. I do like Blake's set offense passing, but Love is good as well, and a much better initiator off a defensive rebound.

Love is a far better shooter, probably always will be. He is a more technical rebounder, and more polished from pretty much everywhere outside athletic post moves. He has already mastered the art of keeping his body between his man and the ball, so his little hook shots aren't getting blocked now. He has a nose for the ball that can't be taught, you either have it or you don't.

I understand Blake has more athletic upside, but you can't possibly tell me Love isn't by far the more skilled basketball player.

Fair enough. As I said, the only argument that is acceptable for Dirk over Love now, is that people need to see it for more then a season, and to see what Love plays like come playoff time.

bluefire7002
03-06-2012, 07:56 PM
Nah, he will win once he increases his stamina or paces himself better.

I really have to ask... Is this the reason you think why Lebron has failed in the 4th quarter the last few years?? because of his stamina?

Hawkeye15
03-06-2012, 07:59 PM
Does this kind of logic work for every player? How do you differentiate which historically-significant stat-lines and streaks show how good a player is?

I can be a positive for any player, unless its, "first player ever to foul of of 11 straight games while committing 90 turnovers". That would be bad probably.

Hawkeye15
03-06-2012, 08:00 PM
I really have to ask... Is this the reason you think why Lebron has failed in the 4th quarter the last few years?? because of his stamina?

LeBron failed in the 4th quarter of one series in his career.

bluefire7002
03-06-2012, 08:02 PM
LeBron failed in the 4th quarter of one series in his career.

umm... which one are you talking about? last year vs Mavs? or the year vs the Celtics? or the year vs the Magic?

Hawkeye15
03-06-2012, 08:04 PM
umm... which one are you talking about? last year vs Mavs? or the year vs the Celtics? or the year vs the Magic?

dig up his 4th quarter failures please.

Chronz
03-06-2012, 08:14 PM
I really have to ask... Is this the reason you think why Lebron has failed in the 4th quarter the last few years?? because of his stamina?
Im talking about his Finals performance, everything about his effort level died off. I have to think playing 44MPG and carrying the team on both ends played a part. It doesnt exonerate him but it definitely played a role.

bluefire7002
03-06-2012, 08:15 PM
dig up his 4th quarter failures please.

You can youtube it yourself ... 2010 game 6 vs celtics... 9to...

topdog
03-06-2012, 08:19 PM
Umm you mean besides ball handling, defensive versatility, fast break ability, vision, the art of making others better, not much I guess. LOL its not like your talking about Love vs Marcus Camby here. Even Aldridge has a shot at the best PF in the game title.



Playoffs.

What exactly are you drawing upon when you state this? From what I have seen of Griffin, he has done nothing more than make simple passes when guys are open.

Griffin is a poor shooter and will not realize his potential and be better than Love until he at least can making free throws and that 15 footer consistently. He is especially predictable in the post at the moment.

Chronz
03-06-2012, 08:19 PM
Love's ball handling has never been a problem. Its not a weakness.
LOL completely misses the point. Blakes rebounding isnt a problem but its not something I would mention in an argument vs Love. Same thing here, Blake puts Loves ball handling to shame.


Blake is an awful defender dude, cmon. I do like Blake's set offense passing, but Love is good as well, and a much better initiator off a defensive rebound.

I didnt say he was a better defender, I said he was a more versatile defender. And I dont care how well of an outlet passer he is, this isnt the 70's where that plays a huge role, he is nowhere near the passer Blake is and Blake initiates more fast breaks on his own anyways so its truly irrelevant.


Love is a far better shooter, probably always will be. He is a more technical rebounder, and more polished from pretty much everywhere outside athletic post moves. He has already mastered the art of keeping his body between his man and the ball, so his little hook shots aren't getting blocked now. He has a nose for the ball that can't be taught, you either have it or you don't.

Agreed


I understand Blake has more athletic upside, but you can't possibly tell me Love isn't by far the more skilled basketball player.

I dont care bro, I never said I did. I was answering the questions you laid out. Skill doesnt trump impact, and Love has a slight edge there but to claim an argument cant be made is false. Ive seen some very good ones made, I havent made them because I value Loves superior efficiency more than that, but the fact that Blake has him beat in the non-stats department makes it arguable.

bluefire7002
03-06-2012, 08:21 PM
Im talking about his Finals performance, everything about his effort level died off. I have to think playing 44MPG and carrying the team on both ends played a part. It doesnt exonerate him but it definitely played a role.

I would honestly consider this more if you mentioned it in previous years when he was the "go to" guy for the Cavs... last year though, he didint carry the team on both ends nor if you think he did; he didint have to with Wade on the wing.

Chronz
03-06-2012, 08:25 PM
What exactly are you drawing upon when you state this? From what I have seen of Griffin, he has done nothing more than make simple passes when guys are open.
He inspires players to give their all, he transformed Baron Davis into a fat tub of a lard into someone who actually gave a ****. And yes his playmaking makes it easier for others as well, hes really unselfish, somewhat due to the fact that hes not sure of what to do with the ball when his athletic ability cant create something out of nothing.


Griffin is a poor shooter and will not realize his potential and be better than Love until he at least can making free throws and that 15 footer consistently. He is especially predictable in the post at the moment.

Agreed. Its why I dont have Blake ahead of Love, if he had a jumper this wouldnt even be a conversation.

bluefire7002
03-06-2012, 08:27 PM
He inspires players to give their all, he transformed Baron Davis into a fat tub of a lard into someone who actually gave a ****. And yes his playmaking makes it easier for others as well, hes really unselfish, somewhat due to the fact that hes not sure of what to do with the ball when his athletic ability cant create something out of nothing.


Agreed. Its why I dont have Blake ahead of Love, if he had a jumper this wouldnt even be a conversation.

totally agree! Blake would be a beast if he could develop Love's jumpshot

Chronz
03-06-2012, 08:29 PM
I would honestly consider this more if you mentioned it in previous years when he was the "go to" guy for the Cavs... last year though, he didint carry the team on both ends nor if you think he did; he didint have to with Wade on the wing.
His defensive responsibilities were greater in Miami. Due to their lack of size in order for them to be a great defensive team they had to scramble on the perimeter. Bron was the anchor unlike hes ever been for a defense. And having Wade didnt prevent him from logging heavy minutes and having to carry him through the ECF, it was basically him and Bosh doing all the damage, with Bron creating everything.

If you think of the gauntlet he went through (the 4 best defenses in the league along with his 2-way responsibility and 44MPG), his load was as great as it ever was.

LAKobeBryant
03-06-2012, 08:48 PM
yes for the statistics he puts up every game consistently, he has no off games

Hawkeye15
03-06-2012, 09:09 PM
Originally posted by Chronz: LOL completely misses the point. Blakes rebounding isnt a problem but its not something I would mention in an argument vs Love. Same thing here, Blake puts Loves ball handling to shame.

While I am not downplaying Griffin's superior ballhandling, its not a limiting factor with Love at all, so I don't think it holds a lot of weight.



I didnt say he was a better defender, I said he was a more versatile defender. And I dont care how well of an outlet passer he is, this isnt the 70's where that plays a huge role, he is nowhere near the passer Blake is and Blake initiates more fast breaks on his own anyways so its truly irrelevant.

What do you mean by versatile defender? The games I have watched (And I clearly said I have a limited sample size), Blake doesn't guard the best frontcourt player a ton of the time. I disagree that Love isn't near the passer Blake is. I think you are selling Love short in that department. But again, is it a dealbreaker?



Agreed

thats a 1st haha



I dont care bro, I never said I did. I was answering the questions you laid out.

And you did, I responded, that is why its called a debate brother haha.


Skill doesnt trump impact, and Love has a slight edge there but to claim an argument cant be made is false. Ive seen some very good ones made, I havent made them because I value Loves superior efficiency more than that, but the fact that Blake has him beat in the non-stats department makes it arguable.

What non-stats departments? Outside of the ones you are trying to push? And please don't mistake me for saying that while Love is the better player now, and I think that is easy enough to see (there are far more arguments that make sense for Love being better then the other way around), that Love will end up the better player. Only time will tell on that front.

ChiSox219
03-06-2012, 09:22 PM
1. Lebron
2. Dwight
3. Durant
4. Rose
5. Wade
6. Chris Paul
7. Kobe
8. Deron
9. Melo
10. Pau Gasol
11. Dirk
12. Griffin
13. Ginobili
14. Bosh
15. Iguodala
16. Love
17. Aldridge
18. Nash
19. Westbrook
20. Marc Gasol

Chronz
03-06-2012, 09:35 PM
While I am not downplaying Griffin's superior ballhandling, its not a limiting factor with Love at all, so I don't think it holds a lot of weight.

Again, Blake doesnt have a problem rebounding either. But its not something I would mention here. It holds more weight than their rebounding differential IMO.



What do you mean by versatile defender? The games I have watched (And I clearly said I have a limited sample size), Blake doesn't guard the best frontcourt player a ton of the time. I disagree that Love isn't near the passer Blake is. I think you are selling Love short in that department. But again, is it a dealbreaker?

He can handle switches better and because of that his defensive potential is much higher.



thats a 1st haha
Only if you havent been paying attention, Ive told you I have Love ahead of Blake forever now.



And you did, I responded, that is why its called a debate brother haha.
Your exact words were ;

I understand Blake has more athletic upside, but you can't possibly tell me Love isn't by far the more skilled basketball player.

How is it a debate when its not my position? Im playing devils advocate for you, thats all.



What non-stats departments? Outside of the ones you are trying to push?
The art of making others better, +/- stats meant to measure stats outside the boxscore.


And please don't mistake me for saying that while Love is the better player now, and I think that is easy enough to see (there are far more arguments that make sense for Love being better then the other way around), that Love will end up the better player. Only time will tell on that front.
Dont know what would make you think that, everyone and their mom knows Blake has more potential.

Wisdom Listens
03-06-2012, 09:51 PM
1. Lebron
2. Dwight
3. Durant
4. Rose
5. Wade
6. Chris Paul
7. Kobe
8. Deron
9. Melo
10. Pau Gasol
11. Dirk
12. Griffin
13. Ginobili
14. Bosh
15. Iguodala
16. Love
17. Aldridge
18. Nash
19. Westbrook
20. Marc Gasol

lol

Chronz
03-06-2012, 10:01 PM
1. Lebron
2. Dwight
3. Durant
4. Wade
5. Chris Paul
6. Kobe
7. Rose
8. Dirk

Thats my Top8

Too many questions surrounding the rest of my usuals. This could be a transition year where Love overtakes Pau/Dirk/Manu/Melo/Deron. If he performs admirably in a playoff setting he makes my top7.

Until then the rest go

Manu, Deron, Melo and Pau in some order.


With Love and LMA involved. Im probably forgetting someone but for the most part thats my list.

Oh and Tmac for good measure. I BELIEVE.

b@llhog24
03-06-2012, 10:14 PM
1. Lebron
2. Dwight
3. Durant
4. Wade
5. Chris Paul
6. Kobe
7. Rose
8. Dirk

Thats my Top8

Too many questions surrounding the rest of my usuals. This could be a transition year where Love overtakes Pau/Dirk/Manu/Melo/Deron. If he performs admirably in a playoff setting he makes my top7.

Until then the rest go

Manu, Deron, Melo and Pau in some order.


With Love and LMA involved. Im probably forgetting someone but for the most part thats my list.

Oh and Tmac for good measure. I BELIEVE.

Westbrooke? And just curious but where do you have Bynum ranked?

Chronz
03-06-2012, 10:23 PM
Westbrooke? And just curious but where do you have Bynum ranked?
Oh yea Wessy is definitely ahead of Deron for me.
Bynum is in my Top 25 probably higher.

NYMetros
03-06-2012, 10:34 PM
Pretty obviously a top 10 player

Hawkeye15
03-06-2012, 11:23 PM
1. Lebron
2. Dwight
3. Durant
4. Wade
5. Chris Paul
6. Kobe
7. Rose
8. Dirk

Thats my Top8

Too many questions surrounding the rest of my usuals. This could be a transition year where Love overtakes Pau/Dirk/Manu/Melo/Deron. If he performs admirably in a playoff setting he makes my top7.

Until then the rest go

Manu, Deron, Melo and Pau in some order.


With Love and LMA involved. Im probably forgetting someone but for the most part thats my list.

Oh and Tmac for good measure. I BELIEVE.


Fair enough. I am beyond interested to see what kind of playoff performer Love will be. As you are Blake. You are a, "prove it to me over the course of regular season +. I have no issue with that stance. I simply will continue to say, so far, Love is a top 8 regular season performer this year.

ChiSox219
03-07-2012, 08:56 AM
Oh yea Wessy is definitely ahead of Deron for me.
Bynum is in my Top 25 probably higher.

Whats your knock on Deron?

Swashcuff
03-07-2012, 10:58 AM
1. Lebron
2. Dwight
3. Durant
4. Rose
5. Wade
6. Chris Paul
7. Kobe
8. Deron
9. Melo
10. Pau Gasol
11. Dirk
12. Griffin
13. Ginobili
14. Bosh
15. Iguodala
16. Love
17. Aldridge
18. Nash
19. Westbrook
20. Marc Gasol

I am one of Iggy's biggest fans around these parts and I won't even attempt to put him ahead of Love. Niether Manu, nor Pau, nor Griffin, nor Bosh, nor Melo. Based on play this seaon I see no reason whatsoever to put those players over Love. Your opinion but I don't agree with it in the very least.

How can the only man over the last decade to put up 25 and 13 type numbers not be a top 15 player is beyond me.

ColtsSpursTerps
03-07-2012, 11:01 AM
Lol at people actually saying blake over love.

my top 10

1. LeBron
2. Durant
3. Dwight
4. CP3
5. Kobe
6. Rose
7. Wade
8. Dirk
9. Love
10. Deron

Steved1828
03-07-2012, 11:46 AM
Kevin Love has more 30 pt/10 rb games this season than Kevin Durant, LeBron James and Dwight Howard combined- Just sayin...

Sinestro
03-07-2012, 11:57 AM
His defense leaves something to desire but he's in my top 10

Chronz
03-07-2012, 01:06 PM
Whats your knock on Deron?
Defense sucks

waveycrockett
03-07-2012, 01:56 PM
Whats your knock on Deron?
Defense sucks
Never that

ChiSox219
03-07-2012, 02:03 PM
I am one of Iggy's biggest fans around these parts and I won't even attempt to put him ahead of Love. Niether Manu, nor Pau, nor Griffin, nor Bosh, nor Melo. Based on play this seaon I see no reason whatsoever to put those players over Love. Your opinion but I don't agree with it in the very least.

How can the only man over the last decade to put up 25 and 13 type numbers not be a top 15 player is beyond me.

I have a bunch of categories that I grade out players and come up with a single number rating (think of it like attributes/overall in a video game). The weights I have probably value defense and athleticism more than most people but skill is also important as you can tell by Marc Gasol at #20.

I can see arguements for Love over any of the players you listed, they all are bunched together in my opinion. I will say that there are several more important skills than averaging 13 rebounds and I think that's where the gap between where I and others have Love ranked.


Defense sucks

It's not good but if Deron is downgrade for his defense, why isn't Rose higher?

Swashcuff
03-07-2012, 02:22 PM
I have a bunch of categories that I grade out players and come up with a single number rating (think of it like attributes/overall in a video game). The weights I have probably value defense and athleticism more than most people but skill is also important as you can tell by Marc Gasol at #20.

I can see arguements for Love over any of the players you listed, they all are bunched together in my opinion. I will say that there are several more important skills than averaging 13 rebounds and I think that's where the gap between where I and others have Love ranked.

That's all good and fine but seriously putting Manu ahead of Love this season when we aren't even sure what kind of production he is going to give when he gets back on the floor for an extended period of time (wasn't too outstanding when he was on the floor either way) makes me want to ask more about your basis. How exactly does a player who has played a grand total of 10 games this season get ranked ahead of Love.

Pulling down 13 rebounds a game in itself is a great skill especially when given the fact that Kevin Love plays the way he does.

Chronz
03-07-2012, 02:41 PM
It's not good but if Deron is downgrade for his defense, why isn't Rose higher?
Playoff pedigree, making teammates better

This list looks alot different if your asking for the best regular season performer this year, when it comes to subjectively ranking players based on factors outside of statistics (for the most part), then I have a soft spot for giving the proven playoff guys the benefit of the doubt. If Kobe has another playoff showing, mind you Im not expecting him to win it for once, but if he has another series like the last 2 hes partaken, then I have to think his time as a superstar is done. As it stands hes on pretty even footing with Rose statistically speaking, but I trust Kobe more.

Same with Wade, CP3. Playoffs bring out the best in them, moreso than Rose has proven.

Chronz
03-07-2012, 02:49 PM
That's all good and fine but seriously putting Manu ahead of Love this season when we aren't even sure what kind of production he is going to give when he gets back on the floor for an extended period of time (wasn't too outstanding when he was on the floor either way) makes me want to ask more about your basis. How exactly does a player who has played a grand total of 10 games this season get ranked ahead of Love.

Pulling down 13 rebounds a game in itself is a great skill especially when given the fact that Kevin Love plays the way he does.

Well we have never seen Love in a playoff setting, particularly against a superb defense. We just saw Manu put up a 22.3 PER with a broken arm last year against Tony Allen/Battier.

I dont treat this question as whos the best regular season performer. Though I can see the counter argument considering Manus inability to stay healthy, at any point in the season.

ChiSox219
03-07-2012, 04:45 PM
That's all good and fine but seriously putting Manu ahead of Love this season when we aren't even sure what kind of production he is going to give when he gets back on the floor for an extended period of time (wasn't too outstanding when he was on the floor either way) makes me want to ask more about your basis. How exactly does a player who has played a grand total of 10 games this season get ranked ahead of Love.

Pulling down 13 rebounds a game in itself is a great skill especially when given the fact that Kevin Love plays the way he does.

I avoid penalizing most players for injuries and/or performance this year unless there's a clear loss of athleticism or a multi-season downward trend. To paraphrase Mark Cuban, throw out all the stats for this year, they mean next to nothing.

Pulling down offensive rebounds is a valuable skill. Great individual defensive rebounders allow flexibility with lineups but are in high supply. Love does excel on the offensive glass but not to the extent he does on the defensive glass and I think this why there is such in gap in my ranking of Love relative to most fans. Then there's Dirk who was last among PFs last year in ORB% but has other, more valuable skills that allow him rate higher.

I think Love's most valuable skill is his ability to finish around the rim. There are few great offensive rebounders that are skilled around the basket. So while Love can grab 6 orebs and score 5 times someone like Reggie Evans is maybe going to score once out of the 4 times he gets an oreb. I think this is where Love really stands out.

The three ball is great and I value stretch 4s. My only worry is it's an aspect of the game that can be taken away by great (playoff) defenses.

Love isn't great 15 feet way from the basket where Pau and Dirk have dominated and won. I think this is coming and it will certainly raise Love's overall value.

Defensively I don't think Love separates himself from any of the other elite PFs and I would take Pau and Bosh on that end and be confident I'm getting an upgrade.

Swashcuff
03-07-2012, 05:17 PM
I avoid penalizing most players for injuries and/or performance this year unless there's a clear loss of athleticism or a multi-season downward trend. To paraphrase Mark Cuban, throw out all the stats for this year, they mean next to nothing.

Had Dirk gotten off to a great start statistically I can be that Cuban would have said nothing of the sort. Thats beside the point however. Based on they way Kevin Love has played this season I cannot put a man who hasn't even played twenty games this season ahead of him. We still don't know what Manu is going to give us this year. Conventional wisdom tells us basically the same we've seen over his entire career but that isn't always correct.

I remember you earlier this season saying that James Harden is a top 3 SG in this league question where is he and Kobe are ahead of Manu.


Pulling down offensive rebounds is a valuable skill. Great individual defensive rebounders allow flexibility with lineups but are in high supply. Love does excel on the offensive glass but not to the extent he does on the defensive glass and I think this why there is such in gap in my ranking of Love relative to most fans. Then there's Dirk who was last among PFs last year in ORB% but has other, more valuable skills that allow him rate higher.


This is a bit confusing. Love is a GREAT offensive rebounder but given his still of play this season one would expect to see a reduction in his offensive rebounding. The guy is takin 33% more threes this season than he did last. Thats only logical. Dirk's style in itself doesn't lend for great offensive rebounding so that's understood. When you take as many midrange fading shots as he do you wouln't be expected to excel in that regard.

Though there are others that excel on the defensive board Kevin Love is the cream of the crop.


I think Love's most valuable skill is his ability to finish around the rim. There are few great offensive rebounders that are skilled around the basket. So while Love can grab 6 orebs and score 5 times someone like Reggie Evans is maybe going to score once out of the 4 times he gets an oreb. I think this is where Love really stands out.

So the fact that his overall play has improved on almost every level with the exlcusion of his rebounding doesn't have anything to do with where he stands out. He gets to the line better than any PF in the game and doesn't have the star power as most if not all being ranked ahead of him.


The three ball is great and I value stretch 4s. My only worry is it's an aspect of the game that can be taken away by great (playoff) defenses.

No beef with this but Love isn't Ryan Anderson he scores in many different ways than just from the 3 and if teams adjust he too is capable of making th adjustment offensively himself.


Love isn't great 15 feet way from the basket where Pau and Dirk have dominated and won. I think this is coming and it will certainly raise Love's overall value.

Different circumstances as well. This year's Wolves is the first team Love has ever been a part of that could actually be considered a winner and given the opportunity (coming very soon) Love could dominated better than Pau ever has (if he hasn't done so already).


Defensively I don't think Love separates himself from any of the other elite PFs and I would take Pau and Bosh on that end and be confident I'm getting an upgrade.

No doubt they are upgrades but you're a holistic viewer (as you alluded to earlier with the video game eg) so I think based on that Love's versatility, rebounding, scorer, passing (though not better than Pau's), handles etc should give him the edge over both Pau and Bosh as well is Blake even.

ChiSox219
03-07-2012, 06:08 PM
Had Dirk gotten off to a great start statistically I can be that Cuban would have said nothing of the sort. Thats beside the point however.


Regardless of Dirk or Cuban, the statement is true, it's in the data and you can see it on the court.



Based on they way Kevin Love has played this season I cannot put a man who hasn't even played twenty games this season ahead of him. We still don't know what Manu is going to give us this year. Conventional wisdom tells us basically the same we've seen over his entire career but that isn't always correct.


Ok, I am going with conventional wisdom.



I remember you earlier this season saying that James Harden is a top 3 SG in this league question where is he and Kobe are ahead of Manu.


I think it's clear I don't think he's top 3, this is off-topic. My **** ain't perfect.



This is a bit confusing. Love is a GREAT offensive rebounder but given his still of play this season one would expect to see a reduction in his offensive rebounding. The guy is takin 33% more threes this season than he did last. Thats only logical. Dirk's style in itself doesn't lend for great offensive rebounding so that's understood. When you take as many midrange fading shots as he do you wouln't be expected to excel in that regard.

Though there are others that excel on the defensive board Kevin Love is the cream of the crop.



What I am trying say is defensive rebounds aren't valuable. Offensive rebounds are valuable and Love is great at it. There are others things more valuable than offensive rebounding such as (good) shot creation.



So the fact that his overall play has improved on almost every level with the exlcusion of his rebounding doesn't have anything to do with where he stands out. He gets to the line better than any PF in the game and doesn't have the star power as most if not all being ranked ahead of him.

I thought I was complimenting Love. I don't consider a player's improvement when evaluating current value. Love has improved year over year, but that doesn't make him more or less valuable.

Love does get to the line a lot and that is a necessary skill for an elite PF. I didn't mention it specifically but I certainly acknowledge it.



Different circumstances as well. This year's Wolves is the first team Love has ever been a part of that could actually be considered a winner and given the opportunity (coming very soon) Love could dominated better than Pau ever has (if he hasn't done so already).


Forget about winning, Dirk and Gasol dominate from just outside the paint, Love can't do that yet. This isn't the only area Dirk and Gasol are superior players.



No doubt they are upgrades but you're a holistic viewer (as you alluded to earlier with the video game eg) so I think based on that Love's versatility, rebounding, scorer, passing (though not better than Pau's), handles etc should give him the edge over both Pau and Bosh as well is Blake even.

I put a lot of value on defense, so a small gap in defensive abilities is more magnified than a gap in rebounding.

Blake draws more defensive attention and makes better passes. His court vision is impressive. His ball handling is excellent. FT% gives Love the better efficiency but I think Blake is the better scorer.

WSU Tony
03-07-2012, 06:20 PM
This is fun to read.

Swashcuff
03-07-2012, 07:39 PM
Regardless of Dirk or Cuban, the statement is true, it's in the data and you can see it on the court.

This is a matter of opionion however.


What I am trying say is defensive rebounds aren't valuable. Offensive rebounds are valuable and Love is great at it. There are others things more valuable than offensive rebounding such as (good) shot creation.

As a Bulls fan and someone as knowledgeable about the game as yourself I'd really like you to explain the bold statement a bit more.


I thought I was complimenting Love. I don't consider a player's improvement when evaluating current value. Love has improved year over year, but that doesn't make him more or less valuable.

I don't mean to beat the horse but you've used this reasoning as to why you think Harden and Blake are such good players. There is a double standard here.

Also to say a Love has improved but it doesn't make him more or less valuable tells me that you really haven't take any time to sit and take a look at Kevin Love.


Forget about winning, Dirk and Gasol dominate from just outside the paint, Love can't do that yet. This isn't the only area Dirk and Gasol are superior players.

Dominate? Pau dominates? Interesting. Another PF who you rank highly doesn't dominate from outside the paint but its your opinion so its cool. What else does Pau do better than Love?


I put a lot of value on defense, so a small gap in defensive abilities is more magnified than a gap in rebounding.

Pau and Love are near equals at this point in their career defensively and Love has him beat in mostly every other category there is.


Blake draws more defensive attention and makes better passes. His court vision is impressive. His ball handling is excellent. FT% gives Love the better efficiency but I think Blake is the better scorer.

Correction Blake drew more defensive attention. Based on what we have seen this season from Love and the Wolves and they way they are/he is played its clear that Love draws damn near all the attention on his team.

Kevin Love's court vision is impressive hell he's arguably the best outlet passer in the entire NBA. You think Blake is a better scorer when he is much more limited that Love and relies heavily on his athleticism to get his buckets. Love is the better scorer there is no question there, he is also the better rebounder and a better defensive player.

Love is more efficient because of his FT%? Okay well lets consider the fact that a far greater % of Blake's shot are taken inside. Matter of a fact he takes and makes more shots on the inside than any other PF in the game and is assisted on at a far great rate than Love. Given this knowledge it should be more than just FT% keeping Blake from being more efficient and if that is indeed the case then that's a great weakness on his part. Being able to convert at the line is essential for any player in the game today.

Chronz
03-07-2012, 09:13 PM
LOL Love doesnt have great vision, outlet passing isnt as valuable as it used to be and in no way represents a player with great vision. Put it this way, Love has more passing turnovers than Blake despite not creating anywhere near as much plays for his teammates. Love and great vision dont go together. He doesnt draw as much attention as Blake does either.

And when he says Defensive rebounds arent valuable hes saying in comparison to Offensive rebounds, made FG, forced turnovers, pretty much any statistical category, there are studies that shows most defensive rebounds would be corralled by teammates even if that 1 player didnt grab it. Reggie Evans is one of the games best rebounders but that skill alone doesnt do anything, in comparison to a great scorer or playmaker.

ChiSox219
03-07-2012, 09:13 PM
This is a matter of opionion however.



As a Bulls fan and someone as knowledgeable about the game as yourself I'd really like you to explain the bold statement a bit more.



I don't mean to beat the horse but you've used this reasoning as to why you think Harden and Blake are such good players. There is a double standard here.

Also to say a Love has improved but it doesn't make him more or less valuable tells me that you really haven't take any time to sit and take a look at Kevin Love.



Dominate? Pau dominates? Interesting. Another PF who you rank highly doesn't dominate from outside the paint but its your opinion so its cool. What else does Pau do better than Love?



Pau and Love are near equals at this point in their career defensively and Love has him beat in mostly every other category there is.



Correction Blake drew more defensive attention. Based on what we have seen this season from Love and the Wolves and they way they are/he is played its clear that Love draws damn near all the attention on his team.

Kevin Love's court vision is impressive hell he's arguably the best outlet passer in the entire NBA. You think Blake is a better scorer when he is much more limited that Love and relies heavily on his athleticism to get his buckets. Love is the better scorer there is no question there, he is also the better rebounder and a better defensive player.

Love is more efficient because of his FT%? Okay well lets consider the fact that a far greater % of Blake's shot are taken inside. Matter of a fact he takes and makes more shots on the inside than any other PF in the game and is assisted on at a far great rate than Love. Given this knowledge it should be more than just FT% keeping Blake from being more efficient and if that is indeed the case then that's a great weakness on his part. Being able to convert at the line is essential for any player in the game today.

-Not a matter of opinion, it's a fact.

-It's not a bold statement, there's articles on 82games and other websites that talk about the diminishing returns of defensive rebounds.

-I rate Blake, Love and Harden because they are great players right now, not because they are improved. Love is a great player right now. He has improved over last season. No category for "improvement".

-What does Gasol do better? Low post on both ends, passing, mid range, hi post, finishing at the basket, help defense, PnR defense.

-People always criticize Griffin. It's a bad thing he is so athletic and uses it to his advantage. You mentioned Griffin's at the basket numbers, with only Lebron and Dwight in the same class. At the basket is exactly where you want to see success first and foremost. It's the primary reason Griffin draws so much more defensive attention than Love, Griffin is just so damn unstoppable inside.

-If you have faith in this seasons stat, just look at the gap in eFG%. Otherwise I point to Griffin's FT% being down nearly 10% as league average is down, it's an aberration that will likely balance out with an increase in sample size or a full training camp/practice schedule.

Swashcuff
03-07-2012, 09:28 PM
LOL Love doesnt have great vision, outlet passing isnt as valuable as it used to be and in no way represents a player with great vision. Put it this way, Love has more passing turnovers than Blake despite not creating anywhere near as much plays for his teammates. Love and great vision dont go together. He doesnt draw as much attention as Blake does either.

Who said that Love has great court vision? :confused:

I said it was impressive


And when he says Defensive rebounds arent valuable hes saying in comparison to Offensive rebounds, made FG, forced turnovers, pretty much any statistical category, there are studies that shows most defensive rebounds would be corralled by teammates even if that 1 player didnt grab it. Reggie Evans is one of the games best rebounders but that skill alone doesnt do anything, in comparison to a great scorer or playmaker.


What I am trying say is defensive rebounds aren't valuable. Offensive rebounds are valuable and Love is great at it. There are others things more valuable than offensive rebounding such as (good) shot creation.

That's clear as day by no means is it what you're alluding to Chronz.

If most defensive rebounds would be corralled that still proves that defensive rebounds still have value right?

tredigs
03-07-2012, 09:39 PM
1. Lebron

2. Durant

3. D. Wade

4. Cp3

5. D. Howard

6. D. Rose

7. Kobe

8. Dirk

I feel like those 8 are fairly solidified right now. And those leaving out Dirk have me scratching my heads. It was less than 1 year ago that he mowed through the post season en route to a title in one of the more impressive playoff showings of this generation. He clearly partied hard and wasn't ready to go off the bat this year, but he's been a beast lately, and will undoubtedly be an absolute beast in the playoffs once again.

Then Westbrook, Aldridge, Deron Williams, Pau, Love, Blake and Bynum have a case at the 9-15 slots. Yes, Bynum. His defensive impact to go along with 20+10+ capabilities night in night out are not being given enough credit.

4wanderingeyes
03-07-2012, 10:39 PM
Well love is giving another good performance tonight. Top 10 foshow

Chronz
03-07-2012, 10:41 PM
Who said that Love has great court vision? :confused:

I said it was impressive
Your impressed by mediocrity?




That's clear as day by no means is it what you're alluding to Chronz.
I prolly shouldnt be speaking for him but Im pretty sure thats what hes talking about.


If most defensive rebounds would be corralled that still proves that defensive rebounds still have value right?
Hes exaggerating by saying they have no value if thats what you want to hear. They have some kind of value obviously.

ChiSox219
03-07-2012, 10:49 PM
http://82games.com/rebounds.htm
http://www.countthebasket.com/blog/2008/02/05/diminishing-returns-and-the-value-of-offensive-and-defensive-rebounds/
http://sabermetricresearch.blogspot.com/2011/01/do-players-steal-rebounding.html

Swashcuff
03-07-2012, 10:53 PM
It's not a bold statement, there's articles on 82games and other websites that talk about the diminishing returns of defensive rebounds.

So that in turns means that defensive boards have no value?


-I rate Blake, Love and Harden because they are great players right now, not because they are improved. Love is a great player right now. He has improved over last season. No category for "improvement".

Actually I can recall our previous discussions where you noted Harden's improvements this season as to why he's a better player than "X" player.


-What does Gasol do better? Low post on both ends, passing, mid range, hi post, finishing at the basket, help defense, PnR defense.

And all of this adds what exactly to his team at this point in his career. His help D, PnR defense (especially with Odom gone) isn't by any means anything special.

Again I reiterate all that added together doesn't make up for the large gaps that Love has set on the boards, when he spreads the floor, when he is able to lead his team from the front night in night out, his very own finishing ability.


-People always criticize Griffin. It's a bad thing he is so athletic and uses it to his advantage. You mentioned Griffin's at the basket numbers, with only Lebron and Dwight in the same class. At the basket is exactly where you want to see success first and foremost. It's the primary reason Griffin draws so much more defensive attention than Love, Griffin is just so damn unstoppable inside.

For all his success at the basket he isn't doing a very good job of create his shot for himself. Should that be a knock on him? Not when you're playing with a PG as great as Paul but Blake still doesn't have what anyone would call anything near a refined offensive repertoire. Being able to convert at the basket doesn't make him a better scorer than Love. Not in the very least. That's like saying Howard (minus the supreme efficiency) is a better scorer than Yao Ming was.


-If you have faith in this seasons stat, just look at the gap in eFG%. Otherwise I point to Griffin's FT% being down nearly 10% as league average is down, it's an aberration that will likely balance out with an increase in sample size or a full training camp/practice schedule.

Actually I wasn't the one who first started talking about efficiency in this argument it you was. I was just following up on the point that you yourself made. Love will always be the more efficient scorer whether it be this season, last season, next season or whenever.

Swashcuff
03-07-2012, 10:58 PM
Your impressed by mediocrity?

I guess I am if you think Love's vision is mediocre for a PF.


Hes exaggerating by saying they have no value if thats what you want to hear. They have some kind of value obviously.

Simple. Either way Love is better than damn near any player in the league in either regard and is surely better than anyone of the other PFs being discussed.

I mean seriously we sit here and nit pick and dissect each aspect of Love's game ignoring the fact that he is actually elite in this regard while others aren't even on par.

Swashcuff
03-07-2012, 11:01 PM
http://82games.com/rebounds.htm
http://www.countthebasket.com/blog/2008/02/05/diminishing-returns-and-the-value-of-offensive-and-defensive-rebounds/
http://sabermetricresearch.blogspot.com/2011/01/do-players-steal-rebounding.html

Okay you've backed your opinion. Now given all that you've posted do you honestly believe defensive rebounds have no value?

ChiSox219
03-07-2012, 11:06 PM
Blake can't create for himself :confused:

ChiSox219
03-07-2012, 11:08 PM
Okay you've backed your opinion. Now given all that you've posted do you honestly believe defensive rebounds have no value?

I don't recall ever saying that, just that defensive rebounds are not valuable and more specifically, relative to other skills.

I also stated the true value of a good defensive rebounder is the flexibility in lineups

Chronz
03-07-2012, 11:09 PM
I guess I am if you think Love's vision is mediocre for a PF.

I actually think its below average but I was trying to understand your point.


Simple. Either way Love is better than damn near any player in the league in either regard and is surely better than anyone of the other PFs being discussed.

I mean seriously we sit here and nit pick and dissect each aspect of Love's game ignoring the fact that he is actually elite in this regard while others aren't even on par.
Im not, Im just trying to explain what hes saying and it turns out its exactly what I thought. His point is that hes elite in an aspect of the game that some people find overrated. Its a difference of opinion, thats all.

Chronz
03-07-2012, 11:13 PM
Blake can't create for himself :confused:

Hes been struggling to beat double teams this year, he doesnt have the same quick hitting jumper that Love has to beat them. If not for his passing ability we would be screwed.

Swashcuff
03-07-2012, 11:15 PM
Blake can't create for himself :confused:

:confused:

Where did I say that? I said he isn't doing a very good job. Care to point out where I'm wrong about that?

Swashcuff
03-07-2012, 11:21 PM
I don't recall ever saying that, just that defensive rebounds are not valuable and more specifically, relative to other skills.

I also stated the true value of a good defensive rebounder is the flexibility in lineups


What I am trying say is defensive rebounds aren't valuable. Offensive rebounds are valuable and Love is great at it. There are others things more valuable than offensive rebounding such as (good) shot creation.

I see no difference honestly.

ChiSox219
03-07-2012, 11:22 PM
Hes been struggling to beat double teams this year, he doesnt have the same quick hitting jumper that Love has to beat them. If not for his passing ability we would be screwed.

You lost me, I'd consider dealing with double teams and create your own shot separate? When I hear "create own shot", I think iso/attack. How often is the right play against a double team to create for yourself?

ChiSox219
03-07-2012, 11:23 PM
I see no difference honestly.

I don't understand what you are getting at

Swashcuff
03-07-2012, 11:26 PM
I don't understand what you are getting at

Simple question does defensive rebounding hold any value? A simple yes or a no would suffice.

ChiSox219
03-07-2012, 11:28 PM
Simple question does defensive rebounding hold any value? A simple yes or a no would suffice.

yes, very little

you can get a more clear picture if you read the articles I posted

Chronz
03-07-2012, 11:29 PM
You lost me, I'd consider dealing with double teams and create your own shot separate? When I hear "create own shot", I think iso/attack. How often is the right play against a double team to create for yourself?
I think the ability beat a double team is what makes Rose special, its not something you want to force but to me its part of being able to create a shot, over any kind of defense. Thats elite shot creation. Like Shaq was drawing double teams his entire career, the difference in his play was being able to beat them.

ChiSox219
03-07-2012, 11:31 PM
at the end of the day, like tredigs said, after the top 7 or 8 guys, it almost becomes interchangeable especially on a night to night basis

Love is a great player, I would do horrible things to pair him DRose

Swashcuff
03-07-2012, 11:35 PM
yes, very little

you can get a more clear picture if you read the articles I posted

problem is you contradict your statement and continue to do so but you're not willing to admit it. You said it holds no value then you got confused with me for disagreeing now you're saying yes. I was actually familiar with the 82games.com article but not the others but to say that defensive rebounding is invaluable is untrue and that's all I wanted you to own up to.

ChiSox219
03-07-2012, 11:38 PM
I think the ability beat a double team is what makes Rose special, its not something you want to force but to me its part of being able to create a shot, over any kind of defense. Thats elite shot creation. Like Shaq was drawing double teams his entire career, the difference in his play was being able to beat them.

Ok I got you.

Yeah Blake isn't there yet but he's racking up 3pt assists like a PG when he's doubled, so why force the issue when the Clippers have the shooters? Rose struggles with those doubles tho...

ChiSox219
03-07-2012, 11:40 PM
problem is you contradict your statement and continue to do so but you're not willing to admit it. You said it holds no value then you got confused with me for disagreeing now you're saying yes. I was actually familiar with the 82games.com article but not the others but to say that defensive rebounding is invaluable is untrue and that's all I wanted you to own up to.

Own up to? Why do you insist on turning arguments about basketball, personal? What exactly am I contradicting? What is James Harden's TS% at these days?

I said they are not valuable compared to shot creation, not hold no value.

Swashcuff
03-07-2012, 11:46 PM
Own up to? Why do you insist on turning arguments about basketball, personal? What exactly am I contradicting? What is James Harden's TS% at these days?

I said they are not valuable compared to shot creation, not hold no value.

:laugh:

Way to throw James Harden in there. You're becoming increasingly difficult so I'll not even bother. Its plain as day what you said but for nothing you're willing to admit it.

PS I myself said Harden will maintain a high TS% but no where near 70 like he was early on this season. I said by season's end his advanced #s will mirror that of Kevin Martin last season and that prediction is looking quite accurate at the moment.

Hawkeye15
03-07-2012, 11:46 PM
The pure notion that defensive rebounding is overrated is laughable. It stops in the near future possessions. That is beyond simple to understand.

Swashcuff
03-07-2012, 11:48 PM
What I am trying say is defensive rebounds aren't valuable. Offensive rebounds are valuable and Love is great at it. There are others things more valuable than offensive rebounding such as (good) shot creation.

Do I need reading glasses or did Chisox say that defensive rebounding is not valuable and offensive rebounding isn't as valuable as good shot creation?

Hawkeye15
03-07-2012, 11:49 PM
The reason SOME (no names) overrated defensive rebounding, is the same reason some overrate 3 pt shooting percentages. There is a large amount of specialists that hinder the respect of the skill. There are guys who rebound. But when that guy is also your 25+ scorer, best shooter, rebounder, leader, player, and you throw in the fact that he outplays the other teams frontcourt in the hustle factor on a nightly basis, you begin to understand that some players decide to be good a a lot more than a certain skillset.

Chronz
03-08-2012, 12:59 AM
The pure notion that defensive rebounding is overrated is laughable. It stops in the near future possessions. That is beyond simple to understand.
What makes it laughable? Your acting as if there arent very real questions surrounding its importance on an individual level.

Hawkeye15
03-08-2012, 02:01 AM
What makes it laughable? Your acting as if there arent very real questions surrounding its importance on an individual level.

Not if you are a specialist. For sure its not that important in those types. But when you are the #1 option and expend the amount of energy and burden someone like Love does, it adds to his level of play that he is still outworking the specialists. He plays outside on offense routinely, and yet still has one of the best offreb% in the NBA, and he ends possessions after leading us offensively with a giant grab on defense.

So, while in the scheme of things, defensive rebounding may seem trivial, it needs to be put into context on who is doing it. Specialists get to board it, pass, it, and do nothing. Love doesn't. Defensive rebounding ends possessions, of course it has value, especially when the player you demand the most out of finishes them for you.

Chronz
03-08-2012, 02:50 AM
Not if you are a specialist.
Can you show me the data to back this?

Anyways the findings show that defensive rebounding is the least important individual stat but in a case by case type of thing Im not swayed by your subjective argument.

Patman
03-08-2012, 04:46 AM
Can you show me the data to back this?

Anyways the findings show that defensive rebounding is the least important individual stat but in a case by case type of thing Im not swayed by your subjective argument.

Dean Oliver had a section about rebounding in Basketball on Paper and if you account for other factors Rebounding isn't even that important on a team level. Most of the More Rebounds = wins, is from the fact if the opponent shoots a lower percentage there are more Rebounds for the winning team.

I'm still not sure how to rate individual defensive rebounding, who is more important the guy that grabs the rebound or the guy that blocked out the opponents rebound specialist etc. Should we count Freethrow rebounds as full rebounds and so on.

Still being able to Rebound at the rate Love does and produce in other areas of the game like he does is very impressive.