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bballswishanet
03-06-2012, 12:27 AM
http://blogs.thescore.com/tbj/2012/03/04/kobe-bryant-lebron-james-and-clutch-shooting-when-perception-and-reality-shake-hands/

But almost everyone already knew that

No wonder NBA GM's want him to take the last shot

Aust
03-06-2012, 12:29 AM
Just stop. This is just going to turn into an argument

smiddy012
03-06-2012, 12:30 AM
There is no argument to this. Might as well tell the world the sky is blue during the day time.

justinnum1
03-06-2012, 12:31 AM
those numbers look weird, dwade over durant and rose? ill take it lol, but what are they basing those numbers on?

nvmd,
Luckily for us, Basketball-Reference.com recently launched their “Shot Finder” which claims to track every shot from the 2000-01 season through to this season — up to the February 28 games, as of this writing. The table below shows the results of my Shot Finder query with the following criteria: regular season or playoffs, fourth quarter or overtime, 0:05 or less remaining, shot to tie or to take the lead. The Shot Finder doesn’t let you query across multiple seasons, so I did it for this season and the previous two seasons and added up the numbers for 35 of the most prominent players in terms of overall fame/ability or their tendency to take these shots. If you think I excluded a worthy player, feel free to look him up yourself.

bballswishanet
03-06-2012, 12:33 AM
those numbers look weird, dwade over durant and rose? ill take it lol, but what are they basing those numbers on?

nvmd,



. The table below shows the results of my Shot Finder query with the following criteria: regular season or playoffs, fourth quarter or overtime, 0:05 or less remaining, shot to tie or to take the lead.

:cool:

LGhost
03-06-2012, 12:43 AM
FICTION: Red IS Blue

WadeKobe
03-06-2012, 12:46 AM
Over the past 3 years, with a very small sample size. When we extend that sample size to 10 years or 6 years.... Kobe is not even close to the best. But.... whatever.

Lakerhead4ever
03-06-2012, 12:54 AM
These stats mean nothing. only people that go by stats are mainly fans. GM's say it, NBA players, old and new say it. yet, PSD fans go by stats and say "statistically speaking, carmelo is the best player in the clutch" lol

other that kobe pierce is pretty clutch as well.

PatsSoxKnicks
03-06-2012, 12:58 AM
Over the past 3 years, with a very small sample size. When we extend that sample size to 10 years or 6 years.... Kobe is not even close to the best. But.... whatever.

This.

jbeezy
03-06-2012, 12:59 AM
Black Mamba!

MagicBucsSox
03-06-2012, 12:59 AM
Pierce> Kobe in clutchness

tredigs
03-06-2012, 01:02 AM
Yeah, Kobe and Melo are among the very best at the very last second shot.

Although it's a different story if you're taking the entire fourth quarter of close games, or just the final 2 minutes of very close games into account. Here they are for the last 3 years:

2009/10: http://www.basketball-reference.com/play-index/plus/shot_finder.cgi?request=1&player_id=&match=single&year_id=2010&is_playoffs=&team_id=&opp_id=&game_num_min=0&game_num_max=99&game_month=&game_location=&game_result=&shot_pts=&is_make=&shot_type=&shot_distance_min=&shot_distance_max=&q4=Y&q5=Y&time_remain_minutes=2&time_remain_seconds=0&time_remain_comp=le&margin_min=-5&margin_max=5&c1stat=&c1comp=ge&c1val=&c2stat=&c2comp=ge&c2val=&c3stat=&c3comp=ge&c3val=&order_by=fg

2010/11: http://www.basketball-reference.com/play-index/plus/shot_finder.cgi?request=1&player_id=&match=single&year_id=2011&is_playoffs=&team_id=&opp_id=&game_num_min=0&game_num_max=99&game_month=&game_location=&game_result=&shot_pts=&is_make=&shot_type=&shot_distance_min=&shot_distance_max=&q4=Y&q5=Y&time_remain_minutes=2&time_remain_seconds=0&time_remain_comp=le&margin_min=-5&margin_max=5&c1stat=&c1comp=ge&c1val=&c2stat=&c2comp=ge&c2val=&c3stat=&c3comp=ge&c3val=&order_by=fg

2011/12: http://www.basketball-reference.com/play-index/plus/shot_finder.cgi?request=1&player_id=&match=single&year_id=2012&is_playoffs=&team_id=&opp_id=&game_num_min=0&game_num_max=99&game_month=&game_location=&game_result=&shot_pts=&is_make=&shot_type=&shot_distance_min=&shot_distance_max=&q4=Y&q5=Y&time_remain_minutes=2&time_remain_seconds=0&time_remain_comp=le&margin_min=-5&margin_max=5&c1stat=&c1comp=ge&c1val=&c2stat=&c2comp=ge&c2val=&c3stat=&c3comp=ge&c3val=&order_by=fg

^Kobe's the worst 4th quarter crunch time player in the NBA this season.


So, first 47:55 Lebron/some others > Kobe. Last 5 seconds, Kobe.

Can we all agree and move on?

bballswishanet
03-06-2012, 01:02 AM
Over the past 3 years, with a very small sample size. When we extend that sample size to 10 years or 6 years.... Kobe is not even close to the best. But.... whatever.

If we extend to 12 years, Kobe has 5 rings

If we extend to 6 years, Kobe averaged 35, 5 ,5

If we again extend to 6 years, Kobe scored 81

But back on topic, Kobe is the most clutch player the past 3 years


:cool:

bballswishanet
03-06-2012, 01:03 AM
Black Mamba!

Now the Masked Mamba!

SmartestGuyHere
03-06-2012, 01:08 AM
Kobe >>> all of you so shut up.

M.Bibby2.0
03-06-2012, 01:10 AM
According to this random link, in the past 10 years Duncan and LeBron are the most clutch players in the nba.

http://bbs.hoopchina.com/3321813.html

tredigs
03-06-2012, 01:14 AM
Thread should be changed to, "Kobe best final second shooter of close games in the past 3 years".

There's a lot more than 5 seconds of shooting that go into being clutch, and he's on top of 0 lists when the rest of the 4th is taken into account.

CHANGO
03-06-2012, 01:16 AM
Last 5 second shot... The other 55 seconds of that last quarter he is missing shots and costing his team the W.

BTW...

In 2011-12, in the regular season and playoffs, in the 4th quarter or overtime, 5:00 or less left in quarter, scoring margin between -5 and 5 points, requiring Field Goal Attempts >= 20, sorted by descending Field Goals.

Kobe - 17-61FG, 28FG%

Bruno
03-06-2012, 01:20 AM
who leads the nba in 4th quarter points?

BigBongTheory
03-06-2012, 01:20 AM
Surprising seeing Durant 3 of 23 in .05 or less, Westbrook at 1 of 14.

ThunderousDemon
03-06-2012, 01:20 AM
Let the Flame Wars BEGIN!!!!!!!!!

meloman1592
03-06-2012, 01:32 AM
Kobe< Jeffries

kmoneyjuice
03-06-2012, 01:32 AM
Opinion :facepalm:

Evolution23
03-06-2012, 01:35 AM
Kobe, Melo, Pierce, Dirk, Durant

C-Style
03-06-2012, 01:39 AM
da mamba

LakersMaster24
03-06-2012, 01:40 AM
This thread comes up every week. Literally.

It always ends in the same way. No one proves anyone wrong. One side are the people who just look at stats that pretty much say Kobe is not clutch. The other side is people who watch Kobe and say what they actually see.

ArmLaker
03-06-2012, 01:41 AM
Idk why but I usually find some Knick fans and mostly Heat fans that always downplay Kobe in whatever regards. Could it be because the Knicks stink and Kobe loves lighting them up and because Heat fans are a little jealous that D Wade has always played second fiddle to Kobe in terms of best SG in the NBA and probably will remain that way until Kobe's career comes to a halt?

BigBongTheory
03-06-2012, 01:43 AM
I love Kobe, he makes me happy. He hasn't took me to dinner yet, but I can still say I :love: him.

Supa
03-06-2012, 01:45 AM
Quite a few surprises on the list:

Kevin Durant: 3 for 23
Westbrook: 1 for 14
Lebron James: 0 for 11

---

Sactown
03-06-2012, 01:49 AM
Stats are just to easily manipulated :/

nickdymez
03-06-2012, 01:54 AM
The same people hate Kobe and love Lebron. If someone said "Kobe's name is kobe". lebron lovers would dispute it. I say "well Kobe has 5 rings" Lebron fans say "They dont count because he's a chucker. D-fish, Robert Horry, and Sasha got those rings for him" Its stupid. I "Hate" on Lebron with pure facts. He has no rings. Thats it. Lebron fans somehow try and convince me that he does in some universe. Or they say "Your stupid if you dont think he's going to get multiple rings" lmfao.. Anyway, this stat is stupid.

Chronz
03-06-2012, 01:55 AM
The only fact here is that you have a very rigid definition of clutch

Check out the rest of the "clutch stats" I like that everyone and their mom is using BBR now but we need someone to make a graph that shows efficiency levels at every moment of a close game. We need a statistically relevant sample, since clutch moments are so rare this is a difficult quest but someone out there has to have the time to chart all these moments.

Being down 2 or being tied are 2 very different possessions.

nickdymez
03-06-2012, 01:55 AM
Over the past 3 years, with a very small sample size. When we extend that sample size to 10 years or 6 years.... Kobe is not even close to the best. But.... whatever.


This.


who leads the nba in 4th quarter points?

Who leads the NBA in championships?

Chronz
03-06-2012, 01:57 AM
The same people hate Kobe and love Lebron. If someone said "Kobe's name is kobe". lebron lovers would dispute it. I say "well Kobe has 5 rings" Lebron fans say "They dont count because he's a chucker. D-fish, Robert Horry, and Sasha got those rings for him" Its stupid. I "Hate" on Lebron with pure facts. He has no rings. Thats it. Lebron fans somehow try and convince me that he does in some universe. Or they say "Your stupid if you dont think he's going to get multiple rings" lmfao.. Anyway, this stat is stupid.

Dude change your sig, I never said that.

nickdymez
03-06-2012, 01:57 AM
The only fact here is that you have a very rigid definition of clutch

Check out the rest of the "clutch stats" I like that everyone and their mom is using BBR now but we need someone to make a graph that shows efficiency levels at every moment of a close game. We need a statistically relevant sample, since clutch moments are so rare this is a difficult quest but someone out there has to have the time to chart all these moments.

Being down 2 or being tied are 2 very different possessions.

I like how advanced stats are only relevant when they show Lebron as the number 1 guy.

PatsSoxKnicks
03-06-2012, 01:59 AM
Who leads the NBA in championships?

Derek Fisher

Sactown
03-06-2012, 02:00 AM
Statistics just bend to easily to get an absolute answer.. 5 seconds and under may look very different from 10 seconds and under.. It's hard to label one guy as "the guy"

Chronz
03-06-2012, 02:00 AM
I like how advanced stats are only relevant when they show Lebron as the number 1 guy.
First thing they teach you in any statistics class is the relevance of sample size. We can dig so much deeper now, there is nothing wrong with the study of clutchness but read the thread title, thats abusing this statistic to say something its not meant for.

I mean sure if you define clutchness solely as those attempts then you have the beginning of a cute story but clutchness doesnt have a rigid definition, the best we can and should do, is account for as many variables as possible to come to a statistically relevant sample. I want to know the efficiency in as many sectors of clutch as possible, hope that makes sense.

nickdymez
03-06-2012, 02:13 AM
Derek Fisher

wow, he has more than Kobe?

PatsSoxKnicks
03-06-2012, 02:21 AM
wow, he has more than Kobe?

Oh, Kobe has more than him? He does lead the NBA in championships. My answer is not wrong. He may be tied with Kobe but he still leads the NBA in championships.

BTW, don't you think Fisher should start forever for the Lakers because of his 5 championships with the team?

albertc86
03-06-2012, 02:21 AM
Seriously, stop. I'm a Lakers fan and Kobe fan but we don't need to celebrate the guy by making a thread about him every other day.

nickdymez
03-06-2012, 02:30 AM
Oh, Kobe has more than him? He does lead the NBA in championships. My answer is not wrong. He may be tied with Kobe but he still leads the NBA in championships.

BTW, don't you think Fisher should start forever for the Lakers because of his 5 championships with the team?

Oh, your one of those guys huh. Ok. Then yes. I think Robert Horry is better than Kobe too. Kobe didn't do ANYTHING to help the Lakers win 5 rings. Kobe was a role player AT BEST.

Hawkeye15
03-06-2012, 02:33 AM
Oh, your one of those guys huh. Ok. Then yes. I think Robert Horry is better than Kobe too. Kobe didn't do ANYTHING to help the Lakers win 5 rings. Kobe was a role player AT BEST.

Why do you always look for the negative in any post about Kobe? Because neutral fans can actually talk about his faults, despite how great he has been, you virtually ignore their opinions? Sighting "experts" that agree with you on a variable basis, and rings as your backing? I really don't understand, nor do I care, why you are totally incapable of having a rational discussion when it comes to Kobe Bryant.

PatsSoxKnicks
03-06-2012, 02:34 AM
Oh, your one of those guys huh. Ok. Then yes. I think Robert Horry is better than Kobe too. Kobe didn't do ANYTHING to help the Lakers win 5 rings. Kobe was a role player AT BEST.

I didn't mention Horry, I didn't say Kobe was a role player, etc. All I did say was that Fisher has the most NBA championships. You asked and I answered. Obviously, I didn't answer with the response you were looking for- that was intentional. But I don't understand what Kobe having 5 championships has to do with this thread so yeah, I decided to have a little fun with my answer. None of what I said means I don't think Kobe is a great player. Obviously he is. Top 10 all-time but you don't need to bring up his rings every time someone says something negative about him.

BigBongTheory
03-06-2012, 02:37 AM
..Kobe is good at the bouncing of the ball and the putting it in the bucket and Things, end game.

nickdymez
03-06-2012, 02:37 AM
Why do you always look for the negative in any post about Kobe? Because neutral fans can actually talk about his faults, despite how great he has been, you virtually ignore their opinions? Sighting "experts" that agree with you on a variable basis, and rings as your backing? I really don't understand, nor do I care, why you are totally incapable of having a rational discussion when it comes to Kobe Bryant.

*sigh* because you play the game to win rings. I honestly dont care about Kobe's "faults". His "faults" mean nothing because he is a WINNER. I like how Kobe haters and Lebron fans want to take the focus off winning championships.

nickdymez
03-06-2012, 02:40 AM
I didn't mention Horry, I didn't say Kobe was a role player, etc. All I did say was that Fisher has the most NBA championships. You asked and I answered. Obviously, I didn't answer with the response you were looking for- that was intentional. But I don't understand what Kobe having 5 championships has to do with this thread so yeah, I decided to have a little fun with my answer.

I mentioned Horry because you mentioned Derrick fisher. You were obviously trying to get across some point that rings dont mean your better than someone. No one ever understands what kobe having 5 championships has to do with anything when they are trying to shove Lebron james down your throat.

Hawkeye15
03-06-2012, 02:40 AM
*sigh* because you play the game to win rings. I honestly dont care about Kobe's "faults". His "faults" mean nothing because he is a WINNER. I like how Kobe haters and Lebron fans want to take the focus off winning championships.

Unfortunately, not every great star gets to be drafted onto 3rd base, and then be credited with a grand slam.* For nick, this came from an article written on foxsports. It summarizes my exact opinion, thought it was usefull here.

If winning is the only thing that matters when evaluating, you lose sight of how to actually evaluate. But I already know that of you.

Nobody is deflecting the focus. You simply refuse to acknowledge that your favorite player was blessed with being drafted into the greatest sports organization in modern sports, and given championship help for 12/16 years. Is Kobe great? Yep. Is LeBron the better player? Yep.

Hawkeye15
03-06-2012, 02:41 AM
nick, your negative obsession with LeBron is getting weird.

nickdymez
03-06-2012, 02:41 AM
Unfortunately, not every great star gets to be drafted onto 3rd base, and then be credited with a grand slam.

If winning is the only thing that matters when evaluating, you lose sight of how to actually evaluate. But I already know that of you.

Nobody is deflecting the focus. You simply refuse to acknowledge that your favorite player was blessed with being drafted into the greatest sports organization in modern sports, and given championship help for 12/16 years. Is Kobe great? Yep. Is LeBron the better player? Yep.

If your going to quote someone else to prove a point to me, site it.

Hawkeye15
03-06-2012, 02:43 AM
If your going to quote someone else to prove a point to me, site it.

that was my evaluation bro.

nickdymez
03-06-2012, 02:46 AM
that was my evaluation bro.

That first sentence was your evaluation? Your not serious right?

nickdymez
03-06-2012, 02:47 AM
nick, your negative obsession with LeBron is getting weird.

Please. Because i said he hasn't won? Because i said you cant be the "Greatest player on the planet" and be 0-2 in the finals. Not even go 7 once?

PatsSoxKnicks
03-06-2012, 02:48 AM
*sigh* because you play the game to win rings. I honestly dont care about Kobe's "faults". His "faults" mean nothing because he is a WINNER. I like how Kobe haters and Lebron fans want to take the focus off winning championships.


I mentioned Horry because you mentioned Derrick fisher. You were obviously trying to get across some point that rings dont mean your better than someone. No one ever understands what kobe having 5 championships has to do with anything when they are trying to shove Lebron james down your throat.

Did I even mention Lebron? Of the 2 of us, you're the first one to mention Lebron so I don't see how I'm trying to shove him down your throat when I haven't mentioned him once.

Ok, so by the logic of your first post, Horry has no faults either, correct?

Rings don't mean you're better than someone. But yet your posts seem to indicate that they do. So which is it? Why does Kobe having 5 championships make him better than player X (could be Duncan, Hakeem, Shaq) but player Y (Horry, Tommy Heinsohn, Sam Jones, etc.) having more championships than Kobe doesn't make player Y better? You're all over the place dude.

PatsSoxKnicks
03-06-2012, 02:50 AM
Please. Because i said he hasn't won? Because i said you cant be the "Greatest player on the planet" and be 0-2 in the finals. Not even go 7 once?

It's getting weird because neither of us mentioned Lebron until YOU mentioned him.

Hawkeye15
03-06-2012, 02:52 AM
Please. Because i said he hasn't won? Because i said you cant be the "Greatest player on the planet" and be 0-2 in the finals. Not even go 7 once?

you are a writing contradiction.

Yep, my evaluation previously.

DaLakerz Rulz
03-06-2012, 03:04 AM
Wait guys, I am a bit confused. 2 days ago I read that Derrick Rose was the most clutch player in the NBA. A couple days before that, it was Monta Ellis. How can this happen??? There has to be a definitive answer. Can someone PLEASE post another breakdown of basketball-reference shot finder stats so we can come to a conclusion. I NEED TO KNOW WHO IS THE MOST CLUTCH! We will get to the bottom of this guys. Even if a new thread has to be made every other day until the end of the year. Then this discussion can finally stop once and for all!

BigBongTheory
03-06-2012, 03:10 AM
you are a writing contradiction.

Yep, my evaluation previously.

You should be a poet. You make letters look good together. Strong fellow, Wise word, Chief Hawkeye. #TurningNativeAmerican

amos1er
03-06-2012, 03:11 AM
Thread should be changed to, "Kobe best final second shooter of close games in the past 3 years".

There's a lot more than 5 seconds of shooting that go into being clutch, and he's on top of 0 lists when the rest of the 4th is taken into account.

Yes, I agree, there are more than 5 seconds. Thats why I will refer to the 4th quarter scoring of Lebron in last years finals. The worst in NBA history for a franchise player. Lebron is the "Frozen One", not the "Chosen One".

BigBongTheory
03-06-2012, 03:13 AM
Wait guys, I am a bit confused. 2 days ago I read that Derrick Rose was the most clutch player in the NBA. A couple days before that, it was Monta Ellis. How can this happen??? There has to be a definitive answer. Can someone PLEASE post another breakdown of basketball-reference shot finder stats so we can come to a conclusion. I NEED TO KNOW WHO IS THE MOST CLUTCH! We will get to the bottom of this guys. Even if a new thread has to be made every other day until the end of the year. Then this discussion can finally stop once and for all!

If everyone would just agree that Kobe and/or Rashida Jones and possibly the kid down the street are indeed the most clutch we wouldn't have this problem. It's unfair, :cool: that's my quarterb- scratch that, shooting guard. It's unfair.

bballswishanet
03-06-2012, 03:17 AM
Kobe and Melo- the most clutch in the league :cool:

Kobe- Clutchest

:cool::cool:

GM's and stats/numbers says so

Kobe- :cool:



Masked Mamba!

Edit: Crushing the best team in the league this weekend without the need of his clutchness which is the best in the league since years

amos1er
03-06-2012, 03:19 AM
Fact: NBA GM's have consistently voted Kobe as the player they would have take the final shot. All the basketball greats all say Kobe is the best since Jordan. Sorry ladies, but I have to take their word over some bitter jealous fans on PSD whose franchise players aren't fit to wear Kobe's jock strap. The green-eyed monster is always prevalent here in the NBA forum on PSD. Its really laughable at times. :facepalm:

Jewelz0376
03-06-2012, 03:20 AM
*sigh* because you play the game to win rings. I honestly dont care about Kobe's "faults". His "faults" mean nothing because he is a WINNER. I like how Kobe haters and Lebron fans want to take the focus off winning championships.

You better believe if the Heat win a title this year those Lebron fans will be quick to mention his ring...


I hope those same Lebron fans that love to point out that Kobe was on "stacked teams" will also acknowledge that Lebron has by far the most help of any player this season...somehow I get the feeling they'll ignore that point though....

bballswishanet
03-06-2012, 03:23 AM
Fact: NBA GM's have consistently voted Kobe as the player they would have take the final shot. All the basketball greats all say Kobe is the best since Jordan. Sorry ladies, but I have to take their word over some bitter jealous fans on PSD whose franchise players aren't fit to wear Kobe's jock strap. The green-eyed monster is always prevalent here in the NBA forum on PSD. Its really laughable at times. :facepalm:

lol, everyone posting posts in this thread trying to go against the fact were owned already with their stupid and nonsense posts, looking really stupid while doing it, and now you had to own them with your post..


:D:D

KOBE!

BigBongTheory
03-06-2012, 03:24 AM
Fact: NBA GM's have consistently voted Kobe as the player they would have take the final shot. All the basketball greats all say Kobe is the best since Jordan. Sorry ladies, but I have to take their word over some bitter jealous fans on PSD whose franchise players aren't fit to wear Kobe's jock strap. The green-eyed monster is always prevalent here in the NBA forum on PSD. Its really laughable at times. :facepalm:

I like your post :clap:

bballswishanet
03-06-2012, 03:24 AM
So in in the past 3 months,

-Wade says Kobe is the best at taking the last shot
-Carmelo says Kobe is the best player in the game today
-Kevin Durant says Kobe Bryant is the best one on one player in the game today
-Kevin Love says Kobe is the best player in the game today
-Larry Bird says Kobe would be his first choice teammate
-Jordan said Kobe is the only player comparable to him
-Most NBA GMs say they want Kobe taking the last shot
-Shaq said Kobe is the best SG that he played with
-Steve Nash said Kobe is the best player in the world
-Now it is a fact that Kobe is the most clutch player in the league
-Kobe crushes the best team in the league

And Kobe is leading the league in scoring and leads his team in assists.

And this guy is in his 16th season?

:D!

numba1CHANGsta
03-06-2012, 03:27 AM
Kobe has more rings than you're mom's js :D

bballswishanet
03-06-2012, 03:54 AM
Kobe The Masked Mamba Bryant

Lakerhead4ever
03-06-2012, 03:57 AM
Unfortunately, not every great star gets to be drafted onto 3rd base, and then be credited with a grand slam.

If winning is the only thing that matters when evaluating, you lose sight of how to actually evaluate. But I already know that of you.

Nobody is deflecting the focus. You simply refuse to acknowledge that your favorite player was blessed with being drafted into the greatest sports organization in modern sports, and given championship help for 12/16 years. Is Kobe great? Yep. Is LeBron the better player? Yep.


For someone who hates Kobe so much why do u click on Kobe threads? Also u like to bring up how he was blessed to get drafted to the lakers. You do know Kobe wasnt that great of a player and the lakers weren't a good team. They worked their *** off to get to that level. Don't take it out on Kobe like he's the only lucky one.

You should be happy your wolves won a game tonight, yet your hating on Kobe again

stawka
03-06-2012, 03:59 AM
bballswishanet... You've posted about a thousand times in this thread. You must be getting damn worked up bro lol

mVpDirk41
03-06-2012, 04:18 AM
umh. . last year i thought it was DIRK. .

dc5jdm
03-06-2012, 04:26 AM
"Statistically" Fisher is more clutch than kobe, so all you guys can go and tell the league to double fisher and guard Kobe one on one in the final minute. He isn't even the best closer on his team, so why double him?

MickeyMgl
03-06-2012, 05:52 AM
Pierce> Kobe in clutchness

Last 2:00 of 4th quarter or OT, margin within + or - 3 points:

http://tinyurl.com/6vm8kcv

Kobe Bryant = .400 FG

http://tinyurl.com/8y74fal

Paul Pierce = .360 FG

Of course, this new toy is just going to illustrate how many gazillion ways one can statistically define "clutchness". Which will in the end leave us with our naked-eye observations, which is that Bryant is in fact the best in the game.

CudiOnMyiPod
03-06-2012, 06:11 AM
Dirk is actually the most clutch.

WadeKobe
03-06-2012, 06:16 AM
This thread comes up every week. Literally.

It always ends in the same way. No one proves anyone wrong. One side are the people who just look at stats that pretty much say Kobe is not clutch. The other side is people who watch Kobe and say what they actually see.

:laugh: :laugh2: :facepalm:

Basketball can be quantified. In a game you get the same amount of possessions as your opponents, with the possibility of having 2 more possessions than them in the game. The way you win the game is to score the most points per possession. This means making good, smart, high-percentage basketball plays and not turning the ball over.

Therefore, in the 4th quarter, you will get the same amount of possessions as your opponent, +/- 1.

The way you win the 4th is to score more points per possession than the other team. When one guy is shooting a low percentage of shots, not getting assists, and turning the ball over, he is directly hurting his team's chances to win the basketball game.

This is a fact. Period. There is no debating this.

When that player is making a higher percentage of his shots, not turning the ball over, and getting assists to his teammates... he is directly helping his team's chance to win the basketball game.

This is a fact. Period. There is no debating this.

Therefore, you can talk all day until you are blue in the face about what you "see". The fact is that this can be quantified by statistics. The statistics say that what you claim to "see" is wrong.

I know, reality sucks, but it's still reality.

NothingbutWill
03-06-2012, 06:18 AM
Wait...how did this turn into a Kobe vs Lebron thread?

On another note Monta 4-11 woot lol

WadeKobe
03-06-2012, 06:31 AM
Oh, your one of those guys huh. Ok. Then yes. I think Robert Horry is better than Kobe too. Kobe didn't do ANYTHING to help the Lakers win 5 rings. Kobe was a role player AT BEST.

What I actually find ironic is the fact that a big part of Kobe's 5 rings is Robert Horry and Derek Fisher's clutch game-winning/game-tying shooting.

However, now that he has the 5 rings, we re-write the story and say that Kobe is the best guy to take the final shot. Why? Because Michael was.

I've said it before... Kobe is a great player. However, he's not anywhere near Michael's level, and by the time others are done Kobe will fade away in the memories of most... probably relegated to top15 status.

Kobe is an idea. We wanted "the next Michael." So, we crowned Kobe, and he gave us all the theatrics, all the emotions, all the style, everything. The only problem, he didn't actually deliver what Michael did. Instead he played an important, although secondary role to Shaq. He also only made 7-23 game winning shots in his playoff career.

But, to keep with our narrative, we re-write history, and we say that Kobe is the guy we want taking the final shot and that his "5 rings" somehow validates this theory... ignoring all along that - while he is certainly great and played huge roles in those 5 rings - it was other players who were making all the game winning shots.

But nevermind with those pesky facts. Kobe has 5 rings.

naps
03-06-2012, 06:49 AM
Did I even mention Lebron? Of the 2 of us, you're the first one to mention Lebron so I don't see how I'm trying to shove him down your throat when I haven't mentioned him once.

Ok, so by the logic of your first post, Horry has no faults either, correct?

Rings don't mean you're better than someone. But yet your posts seem to indicate that they do. So which is it? Why does Kobe having 5 championships make him better than player X (could be Duncan, Hakeem, Shaq) but player Y (Horry, Tommy Heinsohn, Sam Jones, etc.) having more championships than Kobe doesn't make player Y better? You're all over the place dude.

LOL...Dude, this guy's insecurity is absurd. He brings up LeBron in every Kobe thread for absolute no reason. He never makes rational argument and when you ask him anything to explain his only answer is going to be "Kobe's got 5 rings so he's the best" no matter what the topic is. Everytime I see him post either he's bickering at LeBron or preaching how great Kobe is with 5 rings. haha...

BigBongTheory
03-06-2012, 07:19 AM
:laugh: :laugh2: :facepalm:

Basketball can be quantified. In a game you get the same amount of possessions as your opponents, with the possibility of having 2 more possessions than them in the game. The way you win the game is to score the most points per possession. This means making good, smart, high-percentage basketball plays and not turning the ball over.

Therefore, in the 4th quarter, you will get the same amount of possessions as your opponent, +/- 1.

The way you win the 4th is to score more points per possession than the other team. When one guy is shooting a low percentage of shots, not getting assists, and turning the ball over, he is directly hurting his team's chances to win the basketball game.

This is a fact. Period. There is no debating this.

When that player is making a higher percentage of his shots, not turning the ball over, and getting assists to his teammates... he is directly helping his team's chance to win the basketball game.

This is a fact. Period. There is no debating this.

Therefore, you can talk all day until you are blue in the face about what you "see". The fact is that this can be quantified by statistics. The statistics say that what you claim to "see" is wrong.

I know, reality sucks, but it's still reality.

If I knew what offensive rebounds are I'd say your wrong, fortunately I know what offensive rebounds are. In turnovers you are correct, but also clock management and being able to get off the last shot in even 3 of 4 quarters is also going to swing possessions.

BigBongTheory
03-06-2012, 07:28 AM
What I actually find ironic is the fact that a big part of Kobe's 5 rings is Robert Horry and Derek Fisher's clutch game-winning/game-tying shooting.

However, now that he has the 5 rings, we re-write the story and say that Kobe is the best guy to take the final shot. Why? Because Michael was.

I've said it before... Kobe is a great player. However, he's not anywhere near Michael's level, and by the time others are done Kobe will fade away in the memories of most... probably relegated to top15 status.

Kobe is an idea. We wanted "the next Michael." So, we crowned Kobe, and he gave us all the theatrics, all the emotions, all the style, everything. The only problem, he didn't actually deliver what Michael did. Instead he played an important, although secondary role to Shaq. He also only made 7-23 game winning shots in his playoff career.

But, to keep with our narrative, we re-write history, and we say that Kobe is the guy we want taking the final shot and that his "5 rings" somehow validates this theory... ignoring all along that - while he is certainly great and played huge roles in those 5 rings - it was other players who were making all the game winning shots.

But nevermind with those pesky facts. Kobe has 5 rings.

Yeah because it's not the game in a whole, or the 7 game series in a whole that matter's. Kobe can ball out the whole series but when he doesn't make the game-winner, shame on him, it's not only getting but also having to make the final shot in every game of the finals everytime you get there that makes you a good basketball player. Not the rest of the team that is on the court, god forbid anyone else on your team hits a game-winning shot in the finals, it ruins your legacy Kobe. And you go from Kobe has hit 7 playoff game-winners to his team has hit every game-winner for him, your own opinions seem to be conflicting with themselves. Your Kobe argument is redundant.

Badluck33
03-06-2012, 08:09 AM
Kobe and Derrick Rose are top two choices to put up a game winning shot. With Kobe ahead of DRose.

basketfan4life
03-06-2012, 08:14 AM
why can't almost any non-laker fan say, congrats Kobe you are the best at taking the last shot???

are you really this butt hurt?

also: lebron 0-11 is quite amazing.

nickdymez
03-06-2012, 10:15 AM
..

nickdymez
03-06-2012, 10:18 AM
Your still gonna lie to these people? I went to sleep hoping you would at least state that you got that sentence from a Jason Whitlock article..


http://msn.foxsports.com/nba/story/LeBron-James-haters-make-Kobe-Bryant-Los-Angeles-Lakers-a-false-living-legend-030412



Unfortunately, not every great star gets to be drafted onto 3rd base, and then be credited with a grand slam.

If winning is the only thing that matters when evaluating, you lose sight of how to actually evaluate. But I already know that of you.

Nobody is deflecting the focus. You simply refuse to acknowledge that your favorite player was blessed with being drafted into the greatest sports organization in modern sports, and given championship help for 12/16 years. Is Kobe great? Yep. Is LeBron the better player? Yep.


In baseball terms, Kobe Bryant was born on third base and we’re allowing him to act like he hit a grand slam. There is no bigger competitive advantage in sports than playing for the Los Angeles Lakers. Because of the weather, the beach and the entertainment options, an indoor professional sports franchise operating in Los Angeles has no excuse to not stock its roster with the best talent money can buy. It’s not a coincidence the Lakers have been home to Wilt, Kareem and Shaq.

Thats a coincidence?

Hawkeye15
03-06-2012, 10:28 AM
Your still gonna lie to these people? I went to sleep hoping you would at least state that you got that sentence from a Jason Whitlock article..


http://msn.foxsports.com/nba/story/LeBron-James-haters-make-Kobe-Bryant-Los-Angeles-Lakers-a-false-living-legend-030412






Thats a coincidence?

ahh, that is what you were talking about. Didn't even make the connection. Yeah, it was a fitting line that explains Kobe's situation he walked into perfectly.

Hawkeye15
03-06-2012, 10:31 AM
why can't almost any non-laker fan say, congrats Kobe you are the best at taking the last shot???


Because he isn't, and whenever you show a Kobephile the data, they come up with excuses. I have said it so many times, but selective memory is why so many think Kobe is the best. He has shot WAAAAAY more attempts, therefore made more. People forget about the clanks and airballs when he shoots over double teams with 2 shooters wide open across court, and only remember the 30% of the time he knocks them down. And guess what? There are a bunch of guys who hit a better percentage.

Trueblue2
03-06-2012, 10:36 AM
Melo is the most clutch player in the league today. Kobe went on a great stretch where he hit clutch shot after clutch shot, but a lot of his reputation is gained because he takes so many shots at the end of games. If he drives down the court three times in the final minutes of a close game and misses twice but the last shot wins the game he gets the rep for being clutch when in reality it wasn't that clutch, making the first shot, or all of them, would be clutch.


I'm a laker fan, but numbers don't lie.


Why Can't any other laker fans see this rationally? Kobe is an amazing player, he played a huge role in 5 championships and I don't believe he's done yet, but his reputation as the most clutch player in the league is undeserved. Try looking at this thread objectively, all the Kobe "haters" try reasoning and using numbers, all the Kobe dick riders use ad hominem, straw man, and irrelevant arguments to prove how clutch he is.


What's 5 rings got to do with how clutch he is?
How are the numbers that support other players irrelevant?



PS. @ Nick, you sound autistic... please stop.

amos1er
03-06-2012, 11:44 AM
Melo is the most clutch player in the league today. Kobe went on a great stretch where he hit clutch shot after clutch shot, but a lot of his reputation is gained because he takes so many shots at the end of games. If he drives down the court three times in the final minutes of a close game and misses twice but the last shot wins the game he gets the rep for being clutch when in reality it wasn't that clutch, making the first shot, or all of them, would be clutch.


I'm a laker fan, but numbers don't lie.


Why Can't any other laker fans see this rationally? Kobe is an amazing player, he played a huge role in 5 championships and I don't believe he's done yet, but his reputation as the most clutch player in the league is undeserved. Try looking at this thread objectively, all the Kobe "haters" try reasoning and using numbers, all the Kobe dick riders use ad hominem, straw man, and irrelevant arguments to prove how clutch he is.


What's 5 rings got to do with how clutch he is?
How are the numbers that support other players irrelevant?



PS. @ Nick, you sound autistic... please stop.


Unbelievable...I don't see you haters coming up with anything meaningful and you never address anything that is said positive for Kobe. You claim all we have is ad-hominem arguments and straw man arguments, yet here is something another poster said yesterday that somehow got ignored:


-Wade says Kobe is the best at taking the last shot
-Carmelo says Kobe is the best player in the game today
-Kevin Durant says Kobe Bryant is the best one on one player in the game today
-Kevin Love says Kobe is the best player in the game today
-Larry Bird says Kobe would be his first choice teammate
-Jordan said Kobe is the only player comparable to him
-Most NBA GMs say they want Kobe taking the last shot
-Shaq said Kobe is the best SG that he played with
-Steve Nash said Kobe is the best player in the world
[B]-Now it is a fact that Kobe is the most clutch player in the league
-Kobe crushes the best team in the league

Of course no one wants to mention this. You all just ignore stuff like this and go revert back to some Hollinger stat you heard two years ago. Hollinger is the biggest Lebron dick rider of all and his stats are not recognized by any accredited basketball association.

Fact: You are all a bunch of jealous little haters who are just pissed off because your favorite players have not accomplished what Kobe did. The excuses you all make are truly laughable in the grand scheme of things. The fact that you all can't just simply give the guy the props he is due is truly a testament your envy and jealousy as it clearly blinds you from reality. Every time there is some new statistical proof or quote from either a peer or all-time great, you all dismiss it and go into excuse making mode. No matter how much Kobe accomplishes or wins, or no matter how many experts and all-time greats come forward....you will all still continue to be jealous and make more excuses. Truly pathetic. :pity:

BALLER R
03-06-2012, 12:19 PM
Most Clutch players in the NBA are Kobe, Pierce, Ray Allen, Wade and Melo. Probably missing a couple but when i hear the word clutch these guys come to mind. Why the hell do you have to dig through all kind of stats based on such and such in this amount of time.
Aside from melo all these guys have another thing in common they have a ring. look how many big shots these guys have hit during the playoffs and to me thats what truly matters.

Sactown
03-06-2012, 12:22 PM
^ How about 2 games in a row down the stretch missing 3 of 4 free throws!? 2 of them being in a row in Dallas? Matt Barnes actually saved them from losing...

WadeKobe
03-06-2012, 12:22 PM
If I knew what offensive rebounds are I'd say your wrong, fortunately I know what offensive rebounds are. In turnovers you are correct, but also clock management and being able to get off the last shot in even 3 of 4 quarters is also going to swing possessions.

Offensive rebounds prolong possessions, they do not add possessions.

Likewise, clock management and getting the last shot, even in all 4 quarters, puts you at +2 possessions in a game. But nice try. As you'll see, I said +/- 2 possessions in my post. I also said +/-1 for the 4th Quarter.

WadeKobe
03-06-2012, 12:31 PM
Yeah because it's not the game in a whole, or the 7 game series in a whole that matter's. Kobe can ball out the whole series but when he doesn't make the game-winner, shame on him, it's not only getting but also having to make the final shot in every game of the finals everytime you get there that makes you a good basketball player. Not the rest of the team that is on the court, god forbid anyone else on your team hits a game-winning shot in the finals, it ruins your legacy Kobe.

I never said anything about Kobe's legacy. :eyebrow: Kobe is a phenomenal player. His play throughout the game is what made him great, not his "clutch shooting."

That is my entire point. We try to say the guy is great at something he isn't great at, and was never great at, by rewriting history. Instead of being honest and saying Kobe is great because he's simply been great.... we say "he's the most clutch player and I would want him shooting the last shot", and "he's got 5 rings to prove it."

However, in reality, it isn't true. His 5 rings don't prove he's clutch at all. Instead, they prove that he has been a great player on great teams. But we rewrite history and lie, saying he's soooo clutch at the last shot, even though it was other guys who were actually the ones making clutch, last-second game winning shots, not Kobe.




And you go from Kobe has hit 7 playoff game-winners to his team has hit every game-winner for him, your own opinions seem to be conflicting with themselves. Your Kobe argument is redundant.

I never said his team made every shot for him. :facepalm:

When Kobe 3-peated early in his career, he had won 61 playoff games in his career en route to winning 3 championships. He was 2-9 on game-winning shots. Therefore, his team had won 2 out if its 61 wins due to Kobe's ability to hit last-second shots, and yet lost 7 games.

Nothing I said conflicts with that reality.

bballswishanet
03-06-2012, 12:41 PM
unbelievable...i don't see you haters coming up with anything meaningful and you never address anything that is said positive for kobe. You claim all we have is ad-hominem arguments and straw man arguments, yet here is something another poster said yesterday that somehow got ignored:



Of course no one wants to mention this. You all just ignore stuff like this and go revert back to some hollinger stat you heard two years ago. Hollinger is the biggest lebron dick rider of all and his stats are not recognized by any accredited basketball association.

Fact: You are all a bunch of jealous little haters who are just pissed off because your favorite players have not accomplished what kobe did. The excuses you all make are truly laughable in the grand scheme of things. The fact that you all can't just simply give the guy the props he is due is truly a testament your envy and jealousy as it clearly blinds you from reality. Every time there is some new statistical proof or quote from either a peer or all-time great, you all dismiss it and go into excuse making mode. No matter how much kobe accomplishes or wins, or no matter how many experts and all-time greats come forward....you will all still continue to be jealous and make more excuses. Truly pathetic. :pity:


ownage!!

Sactown
03-06-2012, 12:46 PM
So if someone hits a game winner with 6 seconds to go it doesn't count.. got it

Sactown
03-06-2012, 12:50 PM
Also DeMarcus is shooting 100% this season in that category. Can we all agree he's definitely the most clutch player to ever lace up!?

Sactown
03-06-2012, 12:51 PM
Also another funny fact.. in the 2010-2011 season if you just had 10 seconds to the criteria Kobe's FG% drops 16% lol..

Sactown
03-06-2012, 01:06 PM
I just did the same study, but with 15 seconds to go tie or take the lead and Kobe sits at 31%.. /THREAD!?

nickdymez
03-06-2012, 01:16 PM
The main reason i come in threads like this is because people use these as a way to knock a player. Since Kobe plays on my favorite team, i defend the player. But the same people in here, for instance "Naps", is in every single Lebron thread praising him and wishing to drink his bathwater. The hypocrisy is amazing!

nickdymez
03-06-2012, 01:17 PM
What I actually find ironic is the fact that a big part of Kobe's 5 rings is Robert Horry and Derek Fisher's clutch game-winning/game-tying shooting.

However, now that he has the 5 rings, we re-write the story and say that Kobe is the best guy to take the final shot. Why? Because Michael was.

I've said it before... Kobe is a great player. However, he's not anywhere near Michael's level, and by the time others are done Kobe will fade away in the memories of most... probably relegated to top15 status.

Kobe is an idea. We wanted "the next Michael." So, we crowned Kobe, and he gave us all the theatrics, all the emotions, all the style, everything. The only problem, he didn't actually deliver what Michael did. Instead he played an important, although secondary role to Shaq. He also only made 7-23 game winning shots in his playoff career.

But, to keep with our narrative, we re-write history, and we say that Kobe is the guy we want taking the final shot and that his "5 rings" somehow validates this theory... ignoring all along that - while he is certainly great and played huge roles in those 5 rings - it was other players who were making all the game winning shots.

But nevermind with those pesky facts. Kobe has 5 rings.

lol.. Haters gon hate. I only read your last line, and i agree with you there.

nickdymez
03-06-2012, 01:18 PM
Again, notice how if a stat says Lebron is the greatest, these same people in this thread trashing Kobe would be praising Lebron

Sactown
03-06-2012, 01:28 PM
I love how you just completely ignored everything I posted Nickdymez jusy because it hurts your argument lol

nickdymez
03-06-2012, 01:30 PM
I love how you just completely ignored everything I posted Nickdymez jusy because it hurts your argument lol

I dont have an argument. I said "Kobe has 5 rings". Your arguing that?

benzni
03-06-2012, 01:30 PM
actually I think Colby Bryant > Kobe Bryant

Raps18-19 Champ
03-06-2012, 01:32 PM
I'd want Kobe taking the last shot too.

But look what they based it on.


The table below shows the results of my Shot Finder query with the following criteria: regular season or playoffs, fourth quarter or overtime, 0:05 or less remaining, shot to tie or to take the lead.

Clutch isn't just 5 seconds left taking a shot. There's a lot of factors that contribute to clutch.

Sactown
03-06-2012, 01:34 PM
I'd want Kobe taking the last shot too.

But look what they based it on.



Clutch isn't just 5 seconds left taking a shot. There's a lot of factors that contribute to clutch.

Well if you just add a measly 10 seconds his FG% plummets.

nickdymez
03-06-2012, 01:35 PM
I'd want Kobe taking the last shot too.

But look what they based it on.



Clutch isn't just 5 seconds left taking a shot. There's a lot of factors that contribute to clutch.

Yea. This whole thing is stupid. How can you have a "Clutch stat"? There are so many factors that play. Some people are triple teamed at the end of games. Some are single covered. Sometimes people get fouled and nothing is called, we can go on all day about the different variables. Only reason im keeping up my childish banter is because people want to disparage it just because its Kobe.

Sactown
03-06-2012, 01:41 PM
I dont have an argument. I said "Kobe has 5 rings". Your arguing that?

Bill Russel has 11

WadeKobe
03-06-2012, 01:42 PM
lol.. Haters gon hate. I only read your last line, and i agree with you there.

I haven't said anything that constitutes "hate" yet. :pity: In fact, I've said Kobe is a great player and won 5 rings because he was a great player on great teams.

But yea, you're right. Haters gonna hate. :facepalm:

Sactown
03-06-2012, 01:42 PM
And the Reason the article was publish is!!!!

" Because people eat that stuff up. I don't "hate" or "love" either player. People can draw their own conclusions, if they want."

nickdymez
03-06-2012, 01:42 PM
Bill Russel has 11

yes he does

nickdymez
03-06-2012, 01:43 PM
I haven't said anything that constitutes "hate" yet. :pity: In fact, I've said Kobe is a great player and won 5 rings because he was a great player on great teams.

But yea, you're right. Haters gonna hate. :facepalm:

lol.. Haters gon facepalm

WadeKobe
03-06-2012, 01:45 PM
Yea. This whole thing is stupid. How can you have a "Clutch stat"? There are so many factors that play. Some people are triple teamed at the end of games. Some are single covered. Sometimes people get fouled and nothing is called, we can go on all day about the different variables. Only reason im keeping up my childish banter is because people want to disparage it just because its Kobe.

No. You are keeping up your childish banter because you are a childish poster who regularly participates in childish banter, poor logic, and ignorance of facts.

It is what it is. At least own it.

WadeKobe
03-06-2012, 01:46 PM
lol.. Haters gon facepalm

Nice job. Continue to dodge the substance of the posts.

nickdymez
03-06-2012, 01:49 PM
No. You are keeping up your childish banter because you are a childish poster who regularly participates in childish banter, poor logic, and ignorance of facts.

It is what it is. At least own it.

Your clearly mad because I dont like Lebron. I never once lied on him. Sorry you feel that way. Im also sorry your so upset with my posts.

nickdymez
03-06-2012, 01:49 PM
Nice job. Continue to dodge the substance of the posts.

Substance? A clutch stat? really? :facepalm:

mRc08
03-06-2012, 01:52 PM
:horse:

WadeKobe
03-06-2012, 01:53 PM
Your clearly mad because I dont like Lebron. I never once lied on him. Sorry you feel that way. Im also sorry your so upset with my posts.

What is it with PSD and assuming everyone is mad? I'm not mad at all. lol. I haven't said anything which would even give the slightest impression that I was mad.

But somehow, disagreement = mad.

You're only further proving what I've said is true about you as a poster.

WadeKobe
03-06-2012, 01:54 PM
Substance? A clutch stat? really? :facepalm:

Odd... I didn't post a clutch stat....

I said that Kobe is a great player who won because he was a great player on great teams...

You then called me a hater.

I also said that Kobe hasn't been a great gw-shooter in his career, and that we've constructed a false narrative about him.

You said "5 rings."

Sooo... I'm lost.

Sactown
03-06-2012, 01:54 PM
Also I could help Kobe's argument by saying 3 of those 19 shots were over 30 feet and are desperation shots when really he is about 56% when taking a realistic shots under 5 seconds

Da Knicks
03-06-2012, 01:55 PM
melo fo me!!!!!

mRc08
03-06-2012, 01:58 PM
kobe
melo

top two right now, how is this arguable. I would also say Dirk is up there, maybe even more so than them. Did we watch the finals last year?? But if we are saying past three seasons then these two.

Sactown
03-06-2012, 02:05 PM
kobe
melo

top two right now, how is this arguable. I would also say Dirk is up there, maybe even more so than them. Did we watch the finals last year?? But if we are saying past three seasons then these two.

Kobe is at 31% with under 15 seconds.. sounds like there's room to argue... :eyebrow:

nickdymez
03-06-2012, 02:06 PM
What is it with PSD and assuming everyone is mad? I'm not mad at all. lol. I haven't said anything which would even give the slightest impression that I was mad.

But somehow, disagreement = mad.

You're only further proving what I've said is true about you as a poster.

You went on a tirade about me and completely ignored what i posted.

nickdymez
03-06-2012, 02:06 PM
Odd... I didn't post a clutch stat....

I said that Kobe is a great player who won because he was a great player on great teams...

You then called me a hater.

I also said that Kobe hasn't been a great gw-shooter in his career, and that we've constructed a false narrative about him.

You said "5 rings."

Sooo... I'm lost.

Its the title of this thread "BRO"

WadeKobe
03-06-2012, 02:15 PM
You went on a tirade about me and completely ignored what i posted.

I never went on a tirade about you.

I never ignored what you posted.

Instead, I simply, very calmly pointed out the fact of your consistent participation in PSD as a poster.

You ignored what I posted, and even admitted to it yourself. However, I've not ignored anything yet. But nice try at a bait and switch.

You're really proving, with each ensuing exchange, that you simply can't keep up with me in an argument. I suggest you just quit. You're embarrassing yourself and your need to resort to "U Mad" is proof positive.

nickdymez
03-06-2012, 02:19 PM
I never went on a tirade about you.

I never ignored what you posted.

Instead, I simply, very calmly pointed out the fact of your consistent participation in PSD as a poster.

You ignored what I posted, and even admitted to it yourself. However, I've not ignored anything yet. But nice try at a bait and switch.

You're really proving, with each ensuing exchange, that you simply can't keep up with me in an argument. I suggest you just quit. You're embarrassing yourself and your need to resort to "U Mad" is proof positive.

Listen. I wrote a paragraph saying the clutch stat is done. You ignored that and focused on me saying this is childish banter. You win man. Kobe isnt clutch and wade is greater than Kobe. You happy?

Sactown
03-06-2012, 02:29 PM
I did a little bit more messing around and I found these numbers

With a minute to go to tie or take the lead in the PLAYOFFS

Kobe 32% (10-31) Lebron 50% (10-20) Rose 20% (1-5) Durant 0% (0-4) Melo 20% (2-9)
A little shocked to see Lebron with such a high FGA

Sactown
03-06-2012, 02:29 PM
I did a little bit more messing around and I found these numbers
With a minute to go to tie or take the lead
Kobe 32% (10-31) Lebron 50% (10-20) Rose 20% (1-5) Durant 0% (0-4) Melo 20% (2-9)
A little shocked to see Lebron with such a high FGA

Hawkeye15
03-06-2012, 02:37 PM
sactown, put away your factual evidence. Kobe has 5 rings man.

nickdymez
03-06-2012, 02:39 PM
sactown, put away your factual evidence. Kobe has 5 rings man.

I just laugh that thats not important. And I also laugh at you directly quoting another mans article and pretending to never have read it. Reminds me of Micheal Keaton in "The other guys".

Sactown
03-06-2012, 02:46 PM
I just laugh that thats not important. And I also laugh at you directly quoting another mans article and pretending to never have read it. Reminds me of Micheal Keaton in "The other guys".

Get over it.. he accidentally quoted an article and forgot about it.. it's a non issue and a valid point stop being such a baby

Sactown
03-06-2012, 02:48 PM
Is a layup/dunk clutch? Does it change if the layup, dunk was assisted or not?

nickdymez
03-06-2012, 02:51 PM
Get over it.. he accidentally quoted an article and forgot about it.. it's a non issue and a valid point stop being such a baby

wow. He forgot he quoted an article? I asked him did he get that from an article or make it up, and his response was "These are my thoughts". I asked him again and he repeated that sentiment. Are you serious man? Your defensing this man too? You guys are like the PSD gang.

sp1derm00
03-06-2012, 02:57 PM
The clutcher the situation, the clutcher the Kobe.

"How much more clutch do you want me to be? MORE clutch!"

BALLER R
03-06-2012, 02:57 PM
its almost 100 % of the time that when someone hates on kobe it turns out he/she is a lebron fan. Am I the only one that notices that lol

Sactown
03-06-2012, 02:57 PM
wow. He forgot he quoted an article? I asked him did he get that from an article or make it up, and his response was "These are my thoughts". I asked him again and he repeated that sentiment. Are you serious man? Your defensing this man too? You guys are like the PSD gang.

Honestly I hardly ever talk to Hawk, so to assume we're in a "PSD Gang" is ********, and who cares if he quoted a article and lied and you busted him.. move on from it.. I'm trying to use this thread to give out more perspectives on "clutch" play and you're ruining it with your garbage posts.. all you ever say is "Kobe has 5 rings" "you're a Lebron lover" "Kobes the best" "I like little boys" We get it.. now log off your computer and go play outside.

BALLER R
03-06-2012, 02:58 PM
Lebron needs to get on the kobe system because hes reached success at success but he hasn't reached success at success at success

WadeKobe
03-06-2012, 03:02 PM
I just laugh that thats not important.

No one is saying it isn't important. Instead, people are saying it proves nothing about being "clutch", or about being the guy you want taking the last shot, or anything like that.

We're also saying that wins are not an elusive thing which come out of thin air. They're achieved by scoring more points per possession than your opponent.

This is accomplished multiple ways:

Offense:

1) Getting high-percentage shots and not settling for low-percentage shots
2) Setting up your teammates for high percentage shots
3) Getting offensive rebounds to prolong possessions, which automatically increases your scoring probability. Two high-percentage shots is more likely to result in points than one high-percentage shot.
4) Not turning the ball over, so as to have any chance of scoring on the possession

Defense:

1) Keeping your opponents from getting high percentage shots, and forcing them to settle for low-percentage shots
2) Getting defensive rebounds to end possessions on misses, automatically negating their chance of getting another shot and increasing their scoring probability.
3) creating turnovers so as to keep the offense from having any chance of scoring on the possession.

All of these things, to certain degrees, can, in fact, be quantified. Therefore, if a player consistently shoots at a lower FG%, while consistently taking more FGs, that is quantifiably an action which will directly correlate to less wins.

The only way this results in more wins - and "5 ringz" - is through the help of teammates who shoot at such a high percentage consistently and score such a high number of points per possession, subsidizing your chucking, or having teammates who get a lot of offensive rebounds, negating your chucking, by automatically raising your team's scoring probability.

A player ho consistently shoots at a higher FG%, and consistently sets his teammates up with high percentage shots has undertaken actions which directly correlate to more wins. The only way this results in "no ringz" is through the lack of a supporting cast, which drags down the team's overall points per possession by turning the ball over, not capitalizing on easy baskets, etc, etc.

The fact that people wish to ignore this reality and act as if winning is just something you "do", is very telling.

beliges
03-06-2012, 03:02 PM
I think pretty much every knowledgeable basketball personel will agree that Kobe is one of the 5 most clutch players and greatest closers to ever play the game of basketball. People that do not like Kobe can argue against this until they turn blue but its a moot argument. The man has done it over and over again in the regular season, but specifically in the post season.

raiderfaninTX
03-06-2012, 03:09 PM
it always goes back to my sig for the kobe slurpers

Chronz
03-06-2012, 03:11 PM
I did a little bit more messing around and I found these numbers
With a minute to go to tie or take the lead
Kobe 32% (10-31) Lebron 50% (10-20) Rose 20% (1-5) Durant 0% (0-4) Melo 20% (2-9)
A little shocked to see Lebron with such a high FGA

Would you be interested in looking up the # in 5 second intervals and checking the efficiency in tied possessions, down by 1, 2, 3, 4 and so on? Its alot of work but if you look at the data for every year we will have something similar that Cuban works with.

ThunderousDemon
03-06-2012, 03:11 PM
it always goes back to my sig for the kobe slurpers

I guess you're a Jordan slurper then. http://www.pic4ever.com/images/4chsmu1.gif

WadeKobe
03-06-2012, 03:12 PM
I think pretty much every knowledgeable basketball personel will agree that Kobe is one of the 5 most clutch players and greatest closers to ever play the game of basketball. People that do not like Kobe can argue against this until they turn blue but its a moot argument. The man has done it over and over again in the regular season, but specifically in the post season.

This is a false statement. He hasn't done it over and over again in the playoffs. That's the point. We keep saying things that aren't true, and can be factually shown not to be true.

WInning rings doesn't mean you're clutch or a closer. You could just blow people out time and time again.

Chronz
03-06-2012, 03:12 PM
Is a layup/dunk clutch? Does it change if the layup, dunk was assisted or not?

All the stats are important. If a shot is assisted the general rule of thumb is to credit the scorer for 2/3 of the bucket though not all assists are created equally.

ThunderousDemon
03-06-2012, 03:14 PM
This is the point of creating this thread---->http://www.pic4ever.com/images/3ztzsjm.gif

Hawkeye15
03-06-2012, 03:18 PM
I just laugh that thats not important. And I also laugh at you directly quoting another mans article and pretending to never have read it. Reminds me of Micheal Keaton in "The other guys".

Love that movie. No, I read that article yesterday, and thought it was a perfect summarization. I apologize if you needed me to put quotations, as if doing a book report. When you asked me where I got my post from, I told you it was my opinion, because after the first line, I spelled out MY opinion. Didn't even hit me that you were asking me where I got the opening term from.

You like to spin your wheels and dodge any and all debates regarding your hero. I will give you credit for consistency. You can't absorb the fact that Kobe isn't the most clutch out there. You want to take the word of ex players and media outlets that have the same problem you do. Selective memory.

Chronz
03-06-2012, 03:20 PM
This is the point of creating this thread---->http://www.pic4ever.com/images/3ztzsjm.gif

LOL

Where the fuark did you get all those emoticons?

Sactown
03-06-2012, 03:20 PM
All the stats are important. If a shot is assisted the general rule of thumb is to credit the scorer for 2/3 of the bucket though not all assists are created equally.

My question is if Kobe gets triple teamed and dishes to Bynum for an open dunk is that clutch?

Hawkeye15
03-06-2012, 03:22 PM
My question is if Kobe gets triple teamed and dishes to Bynum for an open dunk is that clutch?

yes it is, but Kobe would never do that. He is shooting in those situations, 10/10 times. Hence why his clutch percentages take a hit. If he passed up the horrible shots to defer to a teammate that may have a much easier shot, he would have stronger #'s. But that isn't his thing. He shoots. Results be damned.

Chronz
03-06-2012, 03:24 PM
My question is if Kobe gets triple teamed and dishes to Bynum for an open dunk is that clutch?
Clutch execution, if Kobe attracted that many defenders then he would get the 2/3 of the credit but if someone helped the helper and it was one of those lobs that only Bynum can catch and finish then I would give both equal credit.

Chronz
03-06-2012, 03:25 PM
yes it is, but Kobe would never do that. He is shooting in those situations, 10/10 times. Hence why his clutch percentages take a hit. If he passed up the horrible shots to defer to a teammate that may have a much easier shot, he would have stronger #'s. But that isn't his thing. He shoots. Results be damned.

Im pretty sure hes tallied atleast 1 assist, I honestly havent looked at the data, Im waiting for someone to go nuts with the PbP tool and show us everything.

ThunderousDemon
03-06-2012, 03:25 PM
LOL

Where the fuark did you get all those emoticons?

http://www.pic4ever.com/images/khosh.gif lol

STA_PLAR
03-06-2012, 03:36 PM
1. Melo
2. Kobe
3. Pierce (he is slept on)
4. Durant
5. Wade

I think in my lifetime I've seen Kobe miss more in the clutch than make them.

nickdymez
03-06-2012, 03:37 PM
You know what. You guys are right. my fault. ******* kobe.

Sactown
03-06-2012, 03:39 PM
You know what. You guys are right. my fault. ******* kobe.

Why don't you just go log off already

WadeKobe
03-06-2012, 03:39 PM
You know what. You guys are right. my fault. ******* kobe.

You do realize no one is saying that, right? lol.

You're so emotional about it. You defend, defend, defend, and for you it is either "love" or "hate", there is nothing in between. It is not analytical, it is emotional.

It is actually really interesting to me. Most men treat sports as a sacred theatre where they're allowed to be emotional and leave logic and analysis at the door.

CHANGO
03-06-2012, 03:40 PM
You know what. You guys are right. my fault. ******* kobe.

Don't be mad sweetheart...

:love:

Hawkeye15
03-06-2012, 03:40 PM
Im pretty sure hes tallied atleast 1 assist, I honestly havent looked at the data, Im waiting for someone to go nuts with the PbP tool and show us everything.

I believe that is about what he has total. 1 assist in the one possession game, shot clock turned off. I will try and find it later if someone hasn't already.

Hawkeye15
03-06-2012, 03:43 PM
You know what. You guys are right. my fault. ******* kobe.

Nobody is saying that. Where do you get your views man? Its either you worship Kobe and overlook any PERCEIVED fault (but for the most hardcore Kobe fans, he doesn't have any), or you absolutely hate the man with you. I don't get it.

Every great player has a few things they don't do as well as others. Kobe is no different.

nickdymez
03-06-2012, 03:55 PM
Nobody is saying that. Where do you get your views man? Its either you worship Kobe and overlook any PERCEIVED fault (but for the most hardcore Kobe fans, he doesn't have any), or you absolutely hate the man with you. I don't get it.

Every great player has a few things they don't do as well as others. Kobe is no different.

Your a hypocrite. Everyone knows you hate Kobe. Arguing with you people is pointless. You take back sided shots at him. You say he's great but he's a "maniac chucker".. So lets just stop arguing. If you look through this thread, im clearly not the only one defending kobe with the exact same argument.

nickdymez
03-06-2012, 03:55 PM
Why don't you just go log off already

lol. Shut up

Hawkeye15
03-06-2012, 04:13 PM
Your a hypocrite. Everyone knows you hate Kobe. Arguing with you people is pointless. You take back sided shots at him. You say he's great but he's a "maniac chucker".. So lets just stop arguing. If you look through this thread, im clearly not the only one defending kobe with the exact same argument.

You may perceive them as shots. I am simply stating the obvious. Kobe shoots too much, always has. So what? How does that make me a hater? Seriously. I openly despise the man, but as a player I respect him as one of that all time greats. By your measurement, nothing you say should matter regarding the subject either. You are blinded completely in homerism. Have you noticed there are a good share of Laker fans who also say the exact same things I say? The rational ones can look past the purple and gold and actually break a players game down, despite how good it is.

I never argue with you. This is a sports site. If I feel you are being immature or don't want to reply to your baiting posts, I choose to move on. You can always do the same.

AIRMAR72
03-06-2012, 04:23 PM
why these kobe threads dude is not clutch yes kobe played great against the heat he was in the flow for the first qtr why wasnt he clutch against dallas lastyr why is he shooting below 45% why cant he defense for whole season and get some blocks while he at it theres too many other great talent in the league plus kobe is almost finish

bluefire7002
03-06-2012, 04:27 PM
yes it is, but Kobe would never do that. He is shooting in those situations, 10/10 times. Hence why his clutch percentages take a hit. If he passed up the horrible shots to defer to a teammate that may have a much easier shot, he would have stronger #'s. But that isn't his thing. He shoots. Results be damned.

LOL... I see you guys bashing this guy for being a "Kobe-Lover" (nickdymez), yet your guys' "Kobe-Hate" is insane. its almost on par with that Jason Whitlock article i read yesterday :facepalm:

Like I read pages back, you guys can find excuses and say "well if you go 10 seconds or 8.86456 seconds left in the game Kobe's fg % plummets, therefore he is not clutch" and thats ridiculous, I will go with what I have seen the guy do for the last 12 years AND what all the other NBA GM's and coaches and NBA greats have said about him as well.

WadeKobe
03-06-2012, 04:33 PM
LOL... I see you guys bashing this guy for being a "Kobe-Lover" (nickdymez), yet your guys' "Kobe-Hate" is insane. its almost on par with that Jason Whitlock article i read yesterday :facepalm:

Like I read pages back, you guys can find excuses and say "well if you go 10 seconds or 8.86456 seconds left in the game Kobe's fg % plummets, therefore he is not clutch" and thats ridiculous, I will go with what I have seen the guy do for the last 12 years AND what all the other NBA GM's and coaches and NBA greats have said about him as well.

And yet the fact remains that you haven't actually seen it, and the GMs are wrong, because this can be quantified to a certain degree.

7-25 in his career in the postseason.

beliges
03-06-2012, 04:37 PM
It is generally accepted that Kobe is one of the top 5 clutch performers and closers to ever play the game of basketball and yet people are still trying to discredit him and argue otherwise. This just goes to show the silliness that is PSD sometimes when it comes to certain players. Get over it people. No argument can displace what the dude has proven for the past 16 seasons in the NBA. The closer and finisher of 5 championship teams. As clutch as they come.

bluefire7002
03-06-2012, 04:43 PM
It is generally accepted that Kobe is one of the top 5 clutch performers and closers to ever play the game of basketball and yet people are still trying to discredit him and argue otherwise. This just goes to show the silliness that is PSD sometimes when it comes to certain players. Get over it people. No argument can displace what the dude has proven for the past 16 seasons in the NBA. The closer and finisher of 5 championship teams. As clutch as they come.

Exactly! It amazes me how people on here never give him credit for what he accomplishes. Im a Laker fan and Kobe is one of my favorites (I rarely come on here and post about him because its insane the amount of hate he gets so I just let it be).

Even this year what he is doing is simply amazing. at 33 he is still leading the league in scoring and is on PAR exactly to what MJ was averaging at 33. Which is pretty freaking hard to do considering the mileage on him. Oh and he just made Wade look like a chump on Sunday during most of the first quarter, and well Lebron.. didint bother defending him as usual.

WadeKobe
03-06-2012, 04:56 PM
It is generally accepted that Kobe is one of the top 5 clutch performers and closers to ever play the game of basketball and yet people are still trying to discredit him and argue otherwise. This just goes to show the silliness that is PSD sometimes when it comes to certain players. Get over it people. No argument can displace what the dude has proven for the past 16 seasons in the NBA. The closer and finisher of 5 championship teams. As clutch as they come.

And yet... he wasn't the guy making game winning shots for those 5 rings.

When will people realize that 5 rings does not equal "clutch." It equals "great."

WadeKobe
03-06-2012, 05:05 PM
Exactly! It amazes me how people on here never give him credit for what he accomplishes. Im a Laker fan and Kobe is one of my favorites (I rarely come on here and post about him because its insane the amount of hate he gets so I just let it be).

Even this year what he is doing is simply amazing. at 33 he is still leading the league in scoring and is on PAR exactly to what MJ was averaging at 33. Which is pretty freaking hard to do considering the mileage on him. Oh and he just made Wade look like a chump on Sunday during most of the first quarter, and well Lebron.. didint bother defending him as usual.

No one is guilty of "not giving him credit for what he accomplishes." Instead, we're trying to get people to stop giving him credit for what he hasn't done.

Horry and Fisher were making the game-winning shots during Kobe's championships. Not Kobe.

That matters.

That doesn't make Kobe any less great. It doesn't make Kobe any less of an all-time great. It is just a fact.

7-25 in your career is not good.

Kobe is 2-13 on game-winning shots in the playoffs during his 5 rings.

What we're saying is that Kobe has won 5 rings because he was a great player on great teams. We're saying Kobe has won 5 rings because he played with one of the greatest players ever in Shaq, and because without Shaq he posted his two best playoff seasons ever en route to 2 more rings.

Kobe won rings because his PER was 25.8 in 2009 & 2010, not because he is clutch, not because he is a closer, and not because he makes game-winning shots. He won those rings because he was a great player who played great for most of 46 games and had great teammates that could pick up the slack on the rare occasion that Kobe didn't play great.

How is that hate? I'm saying Kobe won rings because he was great, is great, and played great, on a great team.

Kobe did not win rings because he is a great closer who you want taking the last second shot. 2-13 (15.4%) is not good. That's just a fact. Nothing about that is "hate" at all.

beliges
03-06-2012, 05:17 PM
And yet... he wasn't the guy making game winning shots for those 5 rings.

When will people realize that 5 rings does not equal "clutch." It equals "great."

What does making game winning shots have to do with being clutch? Its a very very small aspect of clutchness. He was the guy with the ball, that made the plays and took the shots down the stretch, exactly how he does it now. In close games, in the final minutes, you cant find more than 3 or 4 guys that have been better than him. Hes done it for so long and in so many big games that its just silly to argue against it. People like you try to discredit it by bringing up "game winners." ONE single shot is a very small aspect of being clutch. Its about how you finish/close games. Not what your shooting % is on a single shot. You need to understand that. Kobe was the closer for each and every one of those 5 championship teams, as well as the teams that made it to 2 Finals and lost and the rest of the Lakers teams he has played for.

WadeKobe
03-06-2012, 05:22 PM
What does making game winning shots have to do with being clutch? Its a very very small aspect of clutchness. He was the guy with the ball, that made the plays and took the shots down the stretch, exactly how he does it now. In close games, in the final minutes, you cant find more than 3 or 4 guys that have been better than him. Hes done it for so long and in so many big games that its just silly to argue against it. People like you try to discredit it by bringing up "game winners." ONE single shot is a very small aspect of being clutch. Its about how you finish/close games. Not what your shooting % is on a single shot. You need to understand that. Kobe was the closer for each and every one of those 5 championship teams, as well as the teams that made it to 2 Finals and lost and the rest of the Lakers teams he has played for.

Shaq was the closer for the first 3. :facepalm:

Also, the thread is about game-winners. Period. I'm responding to the OP. :facepalm:

Lastlly, the criteria you just laid out, LeBron has been better throughout his career except for 1 series. But you won't admit that. :facepalm:

Try to come back with something real, okay?

basketfan4life
03-06-2012, 05:34 PM
Im pretty sure hes tallied atleast 1 assist, I honestly havent looked at the data, Im waiting for someone to go nuts with the PbP tool and show us everything.

this year @ staples against dallas, passes to fisher, bang! but yeah, he shoots it 10 outto 10 ;)

bluefire7002
03-06-2012, 05:51 PM
Shaq was the closer for the first 3. :facepalm:

Also, the thread is about game-winners. Period. I'm responding to the OP. :facepalm:

Lastlly, the criteria you just laid out, LeBron has been better throughout his career except for 1 series. But you won't admit that. :facepalm:

Try to come back with something real, okay?

If you really believe shaq was the go to those 3 years... please go back watch that series vs the blazers, Game 7... see who had the ball in their hand ;)
also go back to most of the series against Indiana in the finals.

I still can't believe people put Lebron ahead of Kobe in the 4th quarter... the man is not even willing to step up in an all-star game that doesnt even count!
He has done it ONCE where I can admit he was real good (that detroit series when he was still in CLE)... which ultimately led him to get swept.

Again, you always hear players say who they want the ball in the 4th quarter... ever stop and think.. maybe YOU are wrong?? these guys in fact did / or are playing with Kobe. If you want to go based on %s?
thats maybe because Kobe is more willing to take the shots even when he's double teamed. I have seen him before Kick it out and I dont recall if it was last year or before, where he kicked it out to Walton and Walton faked the shot and time expired. HE didint even get the the SHOT OFF!
With the % you provided us that Kobe shoots... Id still want him taking the shot/creating a play over anyone else in the NBA today. and im sure 95% of the NBA coaches would as well. If you really dont think that and/or are a Lebron fan your simply in denial

RaiderLakersA's
03-06-2012, 06:00 PM
And yet... he wasn't the guy making game winning shots for those 5 rings.

When will people realize that 5 rings does not equal "clutch." It equals "great."

I want no parts in any of this discussion...because it's been done to death...

...but I would like to offer that 5 rings equates to more than "great." We really need to reassess our superlatives.

One ring can be considered great.

But as you inch up the ladder to 2, 3, 4, etc., and the conversation is centered around an individual who has started and had a significant impact on all of said championships, please, for the love of God, let's not undervalue multiple titles as common, ordinary, run of the mill greatness. :D

1 is "great."

2 is "great +1."

3 is "most exalted one."

4 is "Somebody stop this guy!"

5 is "I don't think anybody CAN stop this guy!!!"

6 is "knocking on heaven's door."

7 - 8 is unholy.

9-10 is grounds for semi-deification.

11 is the nirvana with as many virgins as you can squeeze into an eternity.

12 or more is "only God himself can check you...and he's too busy saving souls to care."

bluefire7002
03-06-2012, 06:12 PM
Lastly, Im tired that all this crap Lebron fails at year after year and getting over that "hump" yet it all gets overlooked because he has an "astounding PER" and that puts him ahead of Kobe's entire career. Im not pointing fingers at anyone, just what i've observed on here and in articles from fatass sportswriters these last few days

Kevj77
03-06-2012, 06:33 PM
Statistics just bend to easily to get an absolute answer.. 5 seconds and under may look very different from 10 seconds and under.. It's hard to label one guy as "the guy"Sactown gets it. Stats are so easy to manipulate. What is clutch is it 2:00 minutes left down by 5. Last 24 second, last 10, 5 seconds. Down by 3, 2, 1 or tied? What years are used in the sample all of them, a single season, or prime years. If you want to write one of these is Kobe is or isn't clutch articles you could easily find stats to back up him being clutch or prove that he isn't by changing variables until it backs up your view. This article just proves it by only using three season under 5 seconds Kobe tops the list. ESPN used less than 15 seconds down 3 or more to make Lebron look terrible in the clutch last season.

Clutch to me isn't all about taking game winning or game tying shots, so I like using the final two minutes, but hitting a shot up by 1 with 20 seconds left is clutch in my opinion. So are hitting free throws at the end of games when teams are fouling to extend.

bluefire7002
03-06-2012, 06:46 PM
I want no parts in any of this discussion...because it's been done to death...

...but I would like to offer that 5 rings equates to more than "great." We really need to reassess our superlatives.

One ring can be considered great.

But as you inch up the ladder to 2, 3, 4, etc., and the conversation is centered around an individual who has started and had a significant impact on all of said championships, please, for the love of God, let's not undervalue multiple titles as common, ordinary, run of the mill greatness. :D

1 is "great."

2 is "great +1."

3 is "most exalted one."

4 is "Somebody stop this guy!"

5 is "I don't think anybody CAN stop this guy!!!"

6 is "knocking on heaven's door."

7 - 8 is unholy.

9-10 is grounds for semi-deification.

11 is the nirvana with as many virgins as you can squeeze into an eternity.

12 or more is "only God himself can check you...and he's too busy saving souls to care."

LMAO... Bill Russell better come out of retirement :D

CHANGO
03-06-2012, 07:33 PM
Clutch is what you want it to be.

It can be 5 minutes. It can be 4. It can be 3. Two, one, :30 seconds, :20, :10, :05, :03...

Anyways, you understood my point, right?

ManRam
03-06-2012, 07:39 PM
Without reading through all these posts...

What has this summed "clutch" down to? Like, is this just game winning shots, last 30 seconds, last 2 minutes, "late in close games"...or what?

Hawkeye15
03-06-2012, 07:42 PM
LOL... I see you guys bashing this guy for being a "Kobe-Lover" (nickdymez), yet your guys' "Kobe-Hate" is insane. its almost on par with that Jason Whitlock article i read yesterday :facepalm:

Like I read pages back, you guys can find excuses and say "well if you go 10 seconds or 8.86456 seconds left in the game Kobe's fg % plummets, therefore he is not clutch" and thats ridiculous, I will go with what I have seen the guy do for the last 12 years AND what all the other NBA GM's and coaches and NBA greats have said about him as well.

who is making excuses? There are mountains of evidence supporting the notion that Kobe is the most clutch player (whatever that even means) is not true. There are facts. The Lakers offensive production in the last 24 seconds of a 1 possession game drops over 25 points per 100 possessions. That is a fact. Kobe hits 30% of his game winning attempts. That is a fact. Bron, Paul, Melo, and others hit better. That is a fact. Kobe has 2 assists in those scenarios. That is a fact.

Again, you may perceive someone a Kobe "hater" for not buying the notion that Kobe is the most clutch player in the NBA, but when they are giving you factual information to support their argument, you may want to either change your tune and debate rationally, or stay out of the debate.

Hawkeye15
03-06-2012, 07:44 PM
It is generally accepted that Kobe is one of the top 5 clutch performers and closers to ever play the game of basketball and yet people are still trying to discredit him and argue otherwise. This just goes to show the silliness that is PSD sometimes when it comes to certain players. Get over it people. No argument can displace what the dude has proven for the past 16 seasons in the NBA. The closer and finisher of 5 championship teams. As clutch as they come.

It is generally accepted that, "defense wins championships". That myth has been busted. With all the numbers and data we have no on Kobe and the rest of the league, that notion is showing to be flawed as well.

Chronz
03-06-2012, 07:51 PM
Sactown gets it. Stats are so easy to manipulate. What is clutch is it 2:00 minutes left down by 5. Last 24 second, last 10, 5 seconds. Down by 3, 2, 1 or tied? What years are used in the sample all of them, a single season, or prime years. If you want to write one of these is Kobe is or isn't clutch articles you could easily find stats to back up him being clutch or prove that he isn't by changing variables until it backs up your view. This article just proves it by only using three season under 5 seconds Kobe tops the list. ESPN used less than 15 seconds down 3 or more to make Lebron look terrible in the clutch last season.

Clutch to me isn't all about taking game winning or game tying shots, so I like using the final two minutes, but hitting a shot up by 1 with 20 seconds left is clutch in my opinion. So are hitting free throws at the end of games when teams are fouling to extend.
Thats why we need someone to chart every pt differential within every time interval.

Get the full picture before we start making any kind of claim.

Lakerhead4ever
03-06-2012, 08:03 PM
It is generally accepted that, "defense wins championships". That myth has been busted. With all the numbers and data we have no on Kobe and the rest of the league, that notion is showing to be flawed as well.

Do you think Kobe or other nba players new and old care about numbers? No.
Only psd goes by numbers. You are Known for going by numbers. Gm's nba players old and new choose kobe, THEY DONT GO BY NUMBERS. no one cares about numbers. thats all u ever bring up when referring to kobe.

You already said u dont like him several times. we get it. But if u dont like him stop clicking on kobe threads. because no matter how many times u bring up numbers, he is still going to be chosen by everyone else who matters, and thats nba players.

You should just be happy the wolves got a win last night

Jesse2272
03-06-2012, 08:04 PM
Wow

LBJ n Iggy with a lot of attempts and no makes

Didn't realize:facepalm:

Jesse2272
03-06-2012, 08:06 PM
Do you think Kobe or other nba players new and old care about numbers? No.
Only psd goes by numbers. You are Known for going by numbers. Gm's nba players old and new choose kobe, THEY DONT GO BY NUMBERS. no one cares about numbers. thats all u ever bring up when referring to kobe.

You already said u dont like him several times. we get it. But if u dont like him stop clicking on kobe threads. because no matter how many times u bring up numbers, he is still going to be chosen by everyone else who matters, and thats nba players.

You should just be happy the wolves got a win last night

Wolves have impressed me this year very fun to watch

Hawkeye15
03-06-2012, 08:07 PM
Do you think Kobe or other nba players new and old care about numbers? No.
Only psd goes by numbers. You are Known for going by numbers. Gm's nba players old and new choose kobe, THEY DONT GO BY NUMBERS. no one cares about numbers. thats all u ever bring up when referring to kobe.

You already said u dont like him several times. we get it. But if u dont like him stop clicking on kobe threads. because no matter how many times u bring up numbers, he is still going to be chosen by everyone else who matters, and thats nba players.

You should just be happy the wolves got a win last night

Do Kobe fans ever come up with anything real?

You have no idea what Kobe cares about.

No, the basketball community, including NBA teams, have moved towards statistical analysis.

Who cares if I don't like him? My brother loves him and agrees with my arguments 100%. You don't have to be in love with a player to evaluate them correctly. If anything, that puts you at a disadvantage.

I am happy the Wolves won last night. What the hell does that have to do with this?

amos1er
03-06-2012, 08:29 PM
Thats why we need someone to chart every pt differential within every time interval.

Get the full picture before we start making any kind of claim.

Wow...thats just ridiculous. How long will that take and will it even do any good? My guess is that it will just cause more debating.

- You can time it from 1:00 for the past five years and get different results

- You can time it from the last 30 seconds for the past four years and get different results

Its all subjective bs and people can make an argument based on any criteria. The only thing for certain is that no matter what results, people's bias will always cause them to believe what they want to believe. Its the same reason why no matter how many NBA greats come forward and say that Kobe is the best closer or how many times NBA GM's vote Kobe as the person they want to have take the last shot, the same group of Lebron nut huggers on here will dispute what they are saying and rationalize it to fit how they want to see things rather than how they really are. Even if James Naismith himself came down from the heavens and said Kobe was the best, the same haters would continue to hate.

Sactown
03-06-2012, 08:39 PM
Without reading through all these posts...

What has this summed "clutch" down to? Like, is this just game winning shots, last 30 seconds, last 2 minutes, "late in close games"...or what?

It's so hard to define, as the stats change so dramatically with JUST a 10 second difference. As Kobe Bryant goes from about 56% when shooting game winners/tie with 5 seconds or less (not counting 30 footers he throws up in desperation) and down to 31% when shooting game winners/ties with 15 seconds. While Lebron goes from 0-11 to around 30%. But if he go to under 1 minute in the playoffs Lebron is at 50% while Kobe is at 32%. and When down 5 under a minute Lebron has a crazy high FG% while Kobe is lower.

From my conclusion, and trust me I've been punching in numbers right and left.. Anything under 5 seconds Kobe seems to have a strong case for most clutch. Like I said 56% are you kidding me!? While anything between 15 seconds and a minute Lebron is clearly the best. Also I took a look at where the shots were taken and Lebron actually hits a lot of mid range/3pt shots in the clutch.. I was very surprised.

bluefire7002
03-06-2012, 08:43 PM
Do Kobe fans ever come up with anything real?

You have no idea what Kobe cares about.

No, the basketball community, including NBA teams, have moved towards statistical analysis.

Who cares if I don't like him? My brother loves him and agrees with my arguments 100%. You don't have to be in love with a player to evaluate them correctly. If anything, that puts you at a disadvantage.

I am happy the Wolves won last night. What the hell does that have to do with this?

How much more real do you want to get dude??? that was going to be my next post but the previous poster explained it perfect. Do you really think NBA GMs and coaches care about these little statistics like "oh crap there is 24 seconds in the game, Kobe is not as clutch and its 21% rather than Melo who is so and so %... I better come up with a play for someone else". Heck NO! Kobe has that killer instinct along with an awesome skill set, and its been pretty effective to the point where players and coaches all want him with the ball.

I also dont know you very well on here, but as someone mentioned already... you have said you dont like Kobe, and thats FINE theres players I dont like in b-ball and in other sports as well. However, dont come in and make excuses to how an all-time great is not clutch or knock off his championships. I always see the same people going against new threads of the same players they just dont like.

Raps18-19 Champ
03-06-2012, 08:45 PM
Yea. This whole thing is stupid. How can you have a "Clutch stat"? There are so many factors that play. Some people are triple teamed at the end of games. Some are single covered. Sometimes people get fouled and nothing is called, we can go on all day about the different variables. Only reason im keeping up my childish banter is because people want to disparage it just because its Kobe.

I've seen this outside Kobe threads.

Lakerhead4ever
03-06-2012, 08:49 PM
Do Kobe fans ever come up with anything real?

You have no idea what Kobe cares about.

No, the basketball community, including NBA teams, have moved towards statistical analysis.

Who cares if I don't like him? My brother loves him and agrees with my arguments 100%. You don't have to be in love with a player to evaluate them correctly. If anything, that puts you at a disadvantage.

I am happy the Wolves won last night. What the hell does that have to do with this?

Like I said, your stats mean nothing to real players.

bholly
03-06-2012, 08:51 PM
I don't understand - can somebody fill me in?

The OP's claim is based on that article and the table in it, right? The table which the article explicitly states is sorted by FGM. So Kobe is the most clutch because he's hit more late field goals, even though he hits them at lesser percentages (and eFG%) than guys like Rudy, Dwight, Millsap?
So effectively the argument is 'Kobe is the most clutch, but only because he gets the most attempts'?

Am I right that that's the argument or is there something in the OP/article/argument that I'm missing?

Chronz
03-06-2012, 09:15 PM
Wow...thats just ridiculous.
Not as ridiculous as whatever everyone has been using to support their opinion. My idea is atleast comprehensive, thats the point.


How long will that take and will it even do any good? My guess is that it will just cause more debating.

Depends on how intricate you want to get but what Im asking for shouldnt take too long, I could do it but I dont really care for this conversation and Im sure someone out there is already working on it.


- You can time it from 1:00 for the past five years and get different results

- You can time it from the last 30 seconds for the past four years and get different results

The point is to reach a statistically relevant sample, and if you look at the data in its entirety you should see a trend emerge.


Its all subjective bs and people can make an argument based on any criteria. The only thing for certain is that no matter what results, people's bias will always cause them to believe what they want to believe. Its the same reason why no matter how many NBA greats come forward and say that Kobe is the best closer or how many times NBA GM's vote Kobe as the person they want to have take the last shot, the same group of Lebron nut huggers on here will dispute what they are saying and rationalize it to fit how they want to see things rather than how they really are. Even if James Naismith himself came down from the heavens and said Kobe was the best, the same haters would continue to hate.

Any opinion based on selective memory is subjective, this will give us factual data. Its not just about the player either, but how the team thrives in these situations. Like I consider CP3 to be the most clutch in final situations, not because he makes them so much as the fact that his teams pathetic offense becomes elite in these situations.

The more facts you have the better you can support your opinion.

Chronz
03-06-2012, 09:22 PM
Like I said, your stats mean nothing to real players.
Thats probably why they make such horrible analysts.

Hawkeye15
03-06-2012, 09:23 PM
How much more real do you want to get dude??? that was going to be my next post but the previous poster explained it perfect. Do you really think NBA GMs and coaches care about these little statistics like "oh crap there is 24 seconds in the game, Kobe is not as clutch and its 21% rather than Melo who is so and so %... I better come up with a play for someone else". Heck NO! Kobe has that killer instinct along with an awesome skill set, and its been pretty effective to the point where players and coaches all want him with the ball.

I also dont know you very well on here, but as someone mentioned already... you have said you dont like Kobe, and thats FINE theres players I dont like in b-ball and in other sports as well. However, dont come in and make excuses to how an all-time great is not clutch or knock off his championships. I always see the same people going against new threads of the same players they just dont like.


Again, its the same drivel I have read for 3 years here about Kobe being clutch. We have mountains of evidence suggesting otherwise. That is just the facts of life.

I have no idea who you are, but so far, its another Laker fan defending Kobe. I am known as very fair, and rational when it comes to evaluating NBA players/teams. But I don't buy into the arguments offered on this subject.

I really have no idea why I respond to these threads at this point. My opinions and evidence for them have been laid out countless times. There are 5-6 guys I would take over Kobe for a last possession shot. And I provide evidence supporting that putting the ball in the hands of these guys late will give me better results then putting it in Kobe's hands.

Oh well

Hawkeye15
03-06-2012, 09:24 PM
Like I said, your stats mean nothing to real players.

Hence why most make horrible analysts, GM's, and talent evaluators. Newsbreak: The best GM's and analysts are chubby short dudes who never played after a certain level, therefore they spent their time watching, and dissecting the game to a degree a player doesn't care about.

bluefire7002
03-06-2012, 09:31 PM
Again, its the same drivel I have read for 3 years here about Kobe being clutch. We have mountains of evidence suggesting otherwise. That is just the facts of life.

I have no idea who you are, but so far, its another Laker fan defending Kobe. I am known as very fair, and rational when it comes to evaluating NBA players/teams. But I don't buy into the arguments offered on this subject.

I really have no idea why I respond to these threads at this point. My opinions and evidence for them have been laid out countless times. There are 5-6 guys I would take over Kobe for a last possession shot. And I provide evidence supporting that putting the ball in the hands of these guys late will give me better results then putting it in Kobe's hands.

Oh well

Can you put that list on here? just curious to see whos on there.

whitemamba33
03-06-2012, 09:48 PM
The most recent stats I saw on this subject contained the name "Ron Artest", suggesting that the Lakers should start to consider putting the ball in his hands late...................

That right there tells me what I need to know about the purely statistical approach.

amos1er
03-06-2012, 10:52 PM
The more facts you have the better you can support your opinion.

I'd agree to that, but all I'm saying is that no matter how much proof you dig up, people will still argue. People will believe what they want to believe. Hence the reason that yourself and others are calling for all this extra data, you rejected the original findings and are trying to grasp at straws to prove you're right. If by some miracle you guys do come up with something, the op is just going to then look to prove you wrong. In my time on here, I've never seen a Lebron lover or Kobe lover admit they were wrong...no matter what evidence was brought to the table.

Chronz
03-06-2012, 10:53 PM
Kobe clutchin right now

bballswishanet
03-06-2012, 10:55 PM
Kobe just owned this thread



AGAIN!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

MASKED MAMBA!

Sactown
03-06-2012, 10:57 PM
Kobe clutchin right now

Seriously? or sarcasm?

Chronz
03-06-2012, 10:59 PM
I'd agree to that, but all I'm saying is that no matter how much proof you dig up, people will still argue. People will believe what they want to believe. Hence the reason that yourself and others are calling for all this extra data, you rejected the original findings and are trying to grasp at straws to prove you're right.
Grasping at straws? LOL not even in the slightest. Ive said this in every thread concerning clutchness, it doesnt have a rigid definition like last second shots but if you guys want to quantify it then you need to give the complete statistical picture. I would honestly love to see that data, that would just be the starting point and the more you expand it the better I would feel about their results.

Like Cuban got Kidd because he has this history of clutch data that suggest Kidd's teams have always overachieved in the clutch, looking at expected winning % kind of backs him but I would love to see the more intricate data.



If by some miracle you guys do come up with something, the op is just going to then look to prove you wrong. In my time on here, I've never seen a Lebron lover or Kobe lover admit they were wrong...no matter what evidence was brought to the table.
I dont care about the fanboys, only those who actually wish to investigate the matter.

Lakerhead4ever
03-06-2012, 10:59 PM
Kobe just hit a last second **** to send the game to ot hawkeye. What ubgotta say now??

Chronz
03-06-2012, 11:01 PM
Seriously? or sarcasm?

On offense yes, on defense hes getting owned by Tay.

Sactown
03-06-2012, 11:02 PM
Grasping at straws? LOL not even in the slightest. Ive said this in every thread concerning clutchness, it doesnt have a rigid definition like last second shots but if you guys want to quantify it then you need to give the complete statistical picture. I would honestly love to see that data, that would just be the starting point and the more you expand it the better I would feel about their results.

Like Cuban got Kidd because he has this history of clutch data that suggest Kidd's teams have always overachieved in the clutch, looking at expected winning % kind of backs him but I would love to see the more intricate data.


I dont care about the fanboys, only those who actually wish to investigate the matter.

What would you like me to investigate? Maybe we can split the work and put the data together? I mean should we get % on game winners at 15-23 feet? under 5 points a minute to go? down 2 24 seconds to go?

Chronz
03-06-2012, 11:03 PM
Kobe just hit a last second **** to send the game to ot hawkeye. What ubgotta say now??

Stop being a homer bro

Chronz
03-06-2012, 11:05 PM
What would you like me to investigate? Maybe we can split the work and put the data together? I mean should we get % on game winners at 15-23 feet? under 5 points a minute to go? down 2 24 seconds to go?
Sounds good, Ill show you what Im looking for.

Lakerhead4ever
03-06-2012, 11:07 PM
Stop being a homer bro

How am I being a homer?? He hit a last second shot

Zefflin
03-06-2012, 11:07 PM
kobe bonk

nickdymez
03-06-2012, 11:08 PM
Anybody see kobe tonight???

Chronz
03-06-2012, 11:09 PM
How am I being a homer?? He hit a last second shot

Because the basis of his argument is that homers are selective. Kobe is the best at making those last second shots but thats not the sole criteria for clutchness, this one shot doesnt disprove anything just like any 1 miss doesnt prove anything. Its the totality of their production in the clutch that matters.

Chronz
03-06-2012, 11:10 PM
Anybody see kobe tonight???

On offense only right?

Zefflin
03-06-2012, 11:14 PM
good, inspire us to make a move for a starting PG

Sactown
03-06-2012, 11:15 PM
How am I being a homer?? He hit a last second shot

It's the Pistons... It's sad that they needed a game winner

Hawkeye15
03-06-2012, 11:20 PM
Kobe just hit a last second **** to send the game to ot hawkeye. What ubgotta say now??

I think old *** Prince ate him up. What do you think?

CHANGO
03-06-2012, 11:21 PM
He hits the buzzer beater for the tie(They could have been winning, but thanks to the Kobe-System Masked Mamba they were losing). Then he lose them the game in OT with stupid shots...

That's what Sactown, Hawkeye, Chronz etc... tried to explain fellas. He can be the BEST last second shooter, but, CLUTCH isn't just that he was awful in the 4th and AWFULLYAWFUL in OT. He cost his team the game.

Bynum 13-18, 30pts and 14reb
Gasol 8-14, 20pts and 10reb
Kobe 8-26, 22pts and 7ast

Sactown
03-06-2012, 11:21 PM
Anybody see kobe tonight???

Didn't he miss the game tying shot in overtime?

JWO35
03-06-2012, 11:25 PM
He's so clutch he forgot it was 6.0secs left on the clock...

Hawkeye15
03-06-2012, 11:26 PM
He hits the buzzer beater for the tie(They could have been winning, but thanks to the Kobe-System Masked Mamba they were losing). Then he lose them the game in OT with stupid shots...

That's what Sactown, Hawkeye, Chronz etc... tried to explain fellas. He can be the BEST last second shooter, but, CLUTCH isn't just that he was awful in the 4th and AWFULLYAWFUL in OT. He cost his team the game.

Bynum 13-18, 30pts and 14reb
Gasol 8-14, 20pts and 10reb
Kobe 8-26, 22pts and 7ast

Exactly. Furthermore, the Kobe defenders will push aside the 3 long misses he had in OT, and remember only the shot he made to tie it to send it into OT. That is literally the definition of selective memory, exactly why we continue to have these conversations about how amazingly clutch Kobe is.

Kobe shoots his teams out of more games than he wins with the game on the line.

Sactown
03-06-2012, 11:28 PM
Seems like the best selection based off pure volume to see percentage is under a minute and down by 5- tie'd

Sactown
03-06-2012, 11:33 PM
Also Kobe was 3-16 outside the paint tonight.. I think that's a pretty important stat

Gene2420
03-06-2012, 11:35 PM
Someone run an ANOVA on this.

UPRock
03-06-2012, 11:35 PM
Kobe is overrated in the clutch, but every time we say something bad about Kobe they come with the "Kobe has 5 rings" argument...smh.

Gram
03-06-2012, 11:49 PM
Lol I'm loling at the Laker fans.

Sactown
03-06-2012, 11:55 PM
Lol I'm loling at the Laker fans.

I've been unbiased so I don't get where the hate is coming from.

Pakman
03-06-2012, 11:58 PM
Haters gonna hate. Period

Sactown
03-07-2012, 12:24 AM
I'm interested to see what Kobe's FG% is when they throw him down on the block rather than ISO him on the wing or at the top of the key

Chronz
03-07-2012, 02:08 AM
Lol I'm loling at the Laker fans.

They will be back in bunches the next time he hits a big shot on route to missing 20 small shots, cuz we all know any miss isnt a big deal, its the makes that truly matter. % be damned

PrettyBoyJ
03-07-2012, 02:14 AM
You cant really put stats into clutch.. They don't take in account the game scenario, number of defenders in your face, the pressure of hitting the shot with all those defenders in your face to win a game.. Stats jus tell you make and miss they don't tell the whole story..

whitemamba33
03-07-2012, 02:27 AM
I'm amazed that people will argue about this issue over and over again without agreeing on a definition of "clutch" first. Nevermind coming to an agreement...there isn't even much discussion about it.

KingPosey
03-07-2012, 02:43 AM
Lets update those numbers because he hit another one today.

Sactown
03-07-2012, 02:46 AM
Lets update those numbers because he hit another one today.
Hit one to go into overtime missed one in overtime to go into double overtime.
Shot 3-16 outside the paint and 0-3 in OT..

Gators123
03-07-2012, 02:51 AM
I think old *** Prince ate him up. What do you think?

:laugh2: It was great seeing Prince play lock-down D again. It seems like its been awhile since hes done that.

basketfan4life
03-07-2012, 03:24 AM
Hey people, the article talks about last 5 secs, what the hell are you talking about ?

Sactown
03-07-2012, 03:30 AM
Hey people, the article talks about last 5 secs, what the hell are you talking about ?

Yes, and my argument is this, extend it to 15 seconds and Kobe's % drops 16%..

MickeyMgl
03-07-2012, 03:44 AM
On offense yes, on defense hes getting owned by Tay.

Oh yeah... Kobe's defense got owned by Prince's 10 points on 5-15 shooting. :cool:

WadeKobe
03-07-2012, 04:22 AM
If you really believe shaq was the go to those 3 years... please go back watch that series vs the blazers, Game 7... see who had the ball in their hand ;)
also go back to most of the series against Indiana in the finals.

I still can't believe people put Lebron ahead of Kobe in the 4th quarter... the man is not even willing to step up in an all-star game that doesnt even count!
He has done it ONCE where I can admit he was real good (that detroit series when he was still in CLE)... which ultimately led him to get swept.

Again, you always hear players say who they want the ball in the 4th quarter... ever stop and think.. maybe YOU are wrong?? these guys in fact did / or are playing with Kobe. If you want to go based on %s?
thats maybe because Kobe is more willing to take the shots even when he's double teamed. I have seen him before Kick it out and I dont recall if it was last year or before, where he kicked it out to Walton and Walton faked the shot and time expired. HE didint even get the the SHOT OFF!
With the % you provided us that Kobe shoots... Id still want him taking the shot/creating a play over anyone else in the NBA today. and im sure 95% of the NBA coaches would as well. If you really dont think that and/or are a Lebron fan your simply in denial

You're simply not an intelligent human being. :shrug: I won't waste any more time on you.

Chronz
03-07-2012, 04:35 AM
Oh yeah... Kobe's defense got owned by Prince's 10 points on 5-15 shooting. :cool:

I definitely wasnt making that case, I dont even think Kobe was matched up with Tay that much. I was just focusing on how Kobe was playing him in the clutch. He displayed a terrible judgement with his positional defense and it cost the team.


For example when the score was 82-83 (Lakers up 1), he does the classic reach in move players often try against Tay before he spins on them. Its like they see his tall lanky frame with his funky dribbling and equate that to making him a bad ball handler. Now Tay doesnt make the shot because the Lakers do what any decent defensive team would do by rotating over, but his drive leads to an offensive putback against a scrambling defense that Kobe compromised. Tay had 5 seconds to create something from beyond the 3 point line and Kobe gambles for the steal? Thats idiotic, Tay wasnt hitting anything off the dribble. Then at 1:24 left in OT he COMPLETELY loses sight of Tayshaun, and he hits the spot up J to put Detroit up. There was absolutely no movement to that play, Tayshaun literally drifted to the open spot unmolested.

I wont even mention the crossover.

Sly Guy
03-07-2012, 10:48 AM
he sure looked clutch when he forgot the time left on the clock late in the 4th last night...

MickeyMgl
03-07-2012, 04:02 PM
he sure looked clutch when he forgot the time left on the clock late in the 4th last night...

I'm pretty sure he didn't forget the time on the clock, but he probably did overthink the situation, because he looked like he was anticipating a foul. That shouldn't have been a problem, because with two FT and down by three, I kind of like the Lakers chances with Bynum and Gasol lining up in the lane and two or three "hands" guys in Kobe, Ron, and Fisher (or Barnes).

It would have been better to just focus on the turn and squaring up for a good look at the three, and let the Pistons foul him if they wanted to.

sep11ie
03-07-2012, 04:21 PM
http://youtu.be/n9Kqa2TU20c

CHANGO
03-07-2012, 05:35 PM
This is a good analysis.

http://www.libertyballers.com/2012/2/29/2832299/lebron-james-kobe-bryant-dwyane-wade-clutch-nba-playoffs-4th-quarter

bballswishanet
04-22-2012, 06:18 PM
lol, a 3 off one leg... in his 16th season

h2r09
04-22-2012, 06:30 PM
7-23. in his 16th season. if lebron did everything he does he would get criticized. kobe is a detriment to his team this season with the amount he shoots, the percentage he shoots, and not getting the ball to the guy(s) who should be shooting.

JLynn943
04-22-2012, 06:50 PM
I wonder how many games Kobe shot the Lakers out of so that he didn't even have the opportunity to take a game-winner with 5 seconds or less left

ManRam
04-22-2012, 06:52 PM
Bailed himself out again! Good work!

Davidgta1
04-22-2012, 06:57 PM
Kobe defined clutch in the OKC game

billsftw
04-22-2012, 07:04 PM
lol shaq is still better; he won 3 rings

naps
04-22-2012, 07:06 PM
This was a great game for Kobe but he has these games once in a year. So don't overrate that. I know Kobephiles are gonna go HAM tonight regardless.