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View Full Version : Deron Williams Scores 57 points



MetroMan
03-04-2012, 09:35 PM
Crazy

http://espn.go.com/nba/boxscore?gameId=320304030


Correction

57 Points

21-21 FREETHROWS

Raps18-19 Champ
03-04-2012, 09:37 PM
Bobcats.

Cfrey
03-04-2012, 09:38 PM
best PG in the league.. someday i wonder when ppl will get off roses nuts

LTBaByyy
03-04-2012, 09:39 PM
Come home!!!!

KB-Pau-DH2012
03-04-2012, 09:40 PM
best PG in the league.. someday i wonder when ppl will get off roses nuts

No, that would be Chris Paul.

Deron Williams is the point guard with the best offensive repertoire.

Sadds The Gr8
03-04-2012, 09:40 PM
nice, but the Bobcats suck ****in balls

KB-Pau-DH2012
03-04-2012, 09:41 PM
57 points.

lakers4sho
03-04-2012, 09:42 PM
they're winning by 2...

Tony_Starks
03-04-2012, 09:42 PM
Bobcats.


So by that we would assume that people have been scoring 50+ on them all season?

Gram
03-04-2012, 09:42 PM
20-20 from the line.

Chill_Will_24
03-04-2012, 09:42 PM
Only the Nets need 57 from a single player to beat a 4w team SMH

Gram
03-04-2012, 09:42 PM
21-21.

Mr Costanza
03-04-2012, 09:43 PM
I hate when people criticize spelling and grammar but this title looks like something a 4th grader may say.

Cfrey
03-04-2012, 09:43 PM
No, that would be Chris Paul.

Deron Williams is the point guard with the best offensive repertoire.

ehh ill take either or.. CP3 looks better because he has a team quite frankly...

i mean really i was just looking at the nets roster and laughed

Raps18-19 Champ
03-04-2012, 09:44 PM
So by that we would assume that people have been scoring 50+ on them all season?

No but it certainly helps.

Raps18-19 Champ
03-04-2012, 09:44 PM
No, that would be Chris Paul.

Deron Williams is the point guard with the best offensive repertoire.

Steve Nash is the PG with the best offense.

Chill_Will_24
03-04-2012, 09:44 PM
and BTW they still might lose the game

D12 fan
03-04-2012, 09:44 PM
best PG in the league.. someday i wonder when ppl will get off roses nuts

Yeah he is def the best pg this year,if he teams up with Dwight they could be the best duo in the NBA.

Nyc4You
03-04-2012, 09:46 PM
Players don't drop 55 on the bobcats because they dont need to..... the game is usually over by the first 30 secs lolz

Tony_Starks
03-04-2012, 09:46 PM
No but it certainly helps.



True...true. I mean its not like I can defend them, he did damn near outscore their entire starting lineup!

ManRam
03-04-2012, 09:47 PM
Efficient scoring FTW. Sometimes you just gotta take it over yourself. Passing can only get you so far.

Brilliant game. For this team to win, he's gonna have to keep looking for his shot like this.

NoahH
03-04-2012, 09:47 PM
only the nets need 57 from a single player to beat a 4w team smh

this

Avenged
03-04-2012, 09:47 PM
3rd best PG in the league. Against the Bobcats. Not bad.

black1605
03-04-2012, 09:48 PM
83 total free throws in this game. Way to let them play, refs.

Oh, and Williams is a beast.

Nyc4You
03-04-2012, 09:49 PM
83 total free throws in this game. Way to let them play, refs.

Oh, and Williams is a beast.

i think everyone is a beast when they play the bobcats

Edit: Except the knicks :facepalm: :cry:

D12 fan
03-04-2012, 09:49 PM
Players don't drop 55 on the bobcats because they dont need to..... the game is usually over by the first 30 secs lolz

Please knicks fans don't talk about Dwill,he already lit your team up this year which is saying something.

Chill_Will_24
03-04-2012, 09:49 PM
Guess he saw Rondo's game and said "Ill raise you 39pts"

flea
03-04-2012, 09:49 PM
Yeah he is def the best pg this year,if he teams up with Dwight they could be the best duo in the NBA.

The best point guard this year doesn't shoot 40% from the field.

arkanian215
03-04-2012, 09:50 PM
they're winning by 2...

At least we won.

VCaintdead17
03-04-2012, 09:50 PM
3rd best PG in the league. Against the Bobcats. Not bad.

I'd take Dwill over Rose, but that's just personal preference, you can't go wrong with either.

Chill_Will_24
03-04-2012, 09:51 PM
Please knicks fans don't talk about Dwill,he already lit your team up this year which is saying something.

One of those 4 wins came from the Knicks so i would HOPE Knicks fans would realize they have no room to poke fun

Avenged
03-04-2012, 09:51 PM
83 total free throws in this game. Way to let them play, refs.

Oh, and Williams is a beast.

Damn!

Nets got 44, Cats got 39. Insane.

Raps18-19 Champ
03-04-2012, 09:54 PM
True...true. I mean its not like I can defend them, he did damn near outscore their entire starting lineup!

I'm not saying it's not impressive.

But I'm saying it helps that it was against a bad defensive team.

It's like Kobe's 81 against the Raptors would be like 65 against the Spurs.

Deron's 57 against the Bobcats is like 45 against the Bulls.

Impressive none the less, but obviously a bad defensive team along with the refs pretty much calling fouls at every play for both teams helps his scoring.

jkiddvc20
03-04-2012, 09:55 PM
Simply amazing player....

Basically I will be crushed if he leaves

Chill_Will_24
03-04-2012, 09:57 PM
I'm not saying it's not impressive.

But I'm saying it helps that it was against a bad defensive team.

It's like Kobe's 81 against the Raptors would be like 65 against the Spurs.

Deron's 57 against the Bobcats is like 45 against the Bulls.

Impressive none the less, but obviously a bad defensive team along with the refs pretty much calling fouls at every play for both teams helps his scoring.

:laugh2: Highly doubt that.. Tom Thibodeau would bench em all if they allowed one player to beat them

Nyc4You
03-04-2012, 10:01 PM
Please knicks fans don't talk about Dwill,he already lit your team up this year which is saying something.

umm lin lit him up too. And i didnt even mention dwill in my post. Stop getting so defensive.

Raps18-19 Champ
03-04-2012, 10:03 PM
:laugh2: Highly doubt that.. Tom Thibodeau would bench em all if they allowed one player to beat them

Well that should only help my case.

I'm just saying it's likelier to score more with a weak defensive team compared to a stronger defensive team.

Mr Costanza
03-04-2012, 10:04 PM
umm lin lit him up too. And i didnt even mention dwill in my post. Stop getting so defensive.

Give him a break. It's been a while the any of the Nets got any press not involving a Dwight trade or Williams resigning.

ACanadian
03-04-2012, 10:05 PM
doesn't surprise me

Nyc4You
03-04-2012, 10:07 PM
Give him a break. It's been a while the any of the Nets got any press not involving a Dwight trade or Williams resigning.

:laugh:

D12 fan
03-04-2012, 10:07 PM
Give him a break. It's been a while the any of the Nets got any press not involving a Dwight trade or Williams resigning.

Are you illiterate?:facepalm:

Jint.
03-04-2012, 10:08 PM
D Will > Rik Smits

DLeeicious
03-04-2012, 10:17 PM
D Will > Rik Smits

Came here to post this

Swift Game
03-04-2012, 10:22 PM
That is pretty impressive any way you want to slice the pie. I don't remember a scoring output like that from a pg since Iverson. Even if it is the bobcats, they are an NBA team.

I am not sure the typical fan knows how difficult it really is to score against an NBA team, let alone play in an NBA game.

D12 fan
03-04-2012, 10:25 PM
Dwill/D12/Dirk would be a nasty trio.

UPRock
03-04-2012, 10:26 PM
He's the best point guard in the NBA, incredible game by him.

Mr Costanza
03-04-2012, 10:26 PM
Are you illiterate?:facepalm:

Ok I'll bite, how do you figure?

Cfrey
03-04-2012, 10:27 PM
people forget that this performance was against a team that everyone else in the NBA plays lol..

so then where are all the other 50 point games

RipCity32
03-04-2012, 10:29 PM
D-Will is the Shiiittt

LAKobeBryant
03-04-2012, 10:30 PM
they only won by 3 LOOOOL

oak2455
03-04-2012, 10:33 PM
baiting thread.....hmmmmm

The goods
03-04-2012, 10:35 PM
Great player putting up great number,I don't care who their playing 57 is 57.

Question when's the last time you saw someone score this many points?
Seems like awhile since someone has put up that many but I'm not sure I could be wrong.

bcoakes97
03-04-2012, 10:35 PM
He is an absolute power house. I cannot wait until all the new Nets fans start raving about them next year. Complete bull. Ive been here since 2007. Vincanity days

Aust
03-04-2012, 10:38 PM
Only the Nets need 57 from a single player to beat a 4w team SMH

Yeah, true. Still impressive though

b@llhog24
03-04-2012, 10:44 PM
Great player putting up great number,I don't care who their playing 57 is 57.

Question when's the last time you saw someone score this many points?
Seems like awhile since someone has put up that many but I'm not sure I could be wrong.

I was having the same train of thought, I mean i know its obvious but the guy almost scored 60pts! Lol even Nba.com is making a big deal out of it. :laugh2:

llemon
03-04-2012, 10:47 PM
I'm not saying it's not impressive.

But I'm saying it helps that it was against a bad defensive team.

It's like Kobe's 81 against the Raptors would be like 65 against the Spurs.

Deron's 57 against the Bobcats is like 45 against the Bulls.

Impressive none the less, but obviously a bad defensive team along with the refs pretty much calling fouls at every play for both teams helps his scoring.

Did you watch the game?

D12 fan
03-04-2012, 10:48 PM
Give dude his props,57 pts is impressive,last dude to score over 57pts was Kobe back in 09 when he dropped 61.Why so much animosity for Dwill?

DoMeFavors
03-04-2012, 10:48 PM
Pretty sure after this game he has put himself in top 5 players.

Avenged
03-04-2012, 10:50 PM
Pretty sure after this game he has put himself in top 5 players.

Pretty sure a game doesn't decide that.

flea
03-04-2012, 10:52 PM
Pretty sure after this game he has put himself in top 5 players.

I hope this is a joke. A great game is a great game, but it was against the worst team in the league by a guy shooting 40% on the year. If there are any point guards even in the top 5 players in the league it's CP3 and nobody else. You'd have a hard time convincing me that an inefficient point guard is better than one of: Durant, Lebron, Wade, Howard, Kobe, Dirk, or even guys like Carmelo and Griffin.

Crackadalic
03-04-2012, 10:55 PM
Bobcats or not still a great game and on crazy efficiency to.

b@llhog24
03-04-2012, 10:59 PM
pretty sure a game doesn't decide that.

+1

pebloemer
03-04-2012, 11:01 PM
Great PG showing tonight:

Deron: 57p, 6r, 7a
Rondo: 18p, 17r, 20a
Rose: 35p, 4r, 8a
Paul: 28p, 4r, 10a

D12 fan
03-04-2012, 11:03 PM
Bobcats or not still a great game and on crazy efficiency to.

Finally a knicks fan gives Dwill some credit.:clap:Much respect

Bruno
03-04-2012, 11:23 PM
57 points is amazing.

57 points on 29 shots?

My TS% calculator just exploded.

Bruno
03-04-2012, 11:23 PM
Great PG showing tonight:

Deron: 57p, 6r, 7a
Rondo: 18p, 17r, 20a
Rose: 35p, 4r, 8a
Paul: 28p, 4r, 10a

poses the question. which player had the best game?

NBA_Starter
03-04-2012, 11:27 PM
Bobcats.

Yeah, we kinda suck but I think the most impressive part to me was he hit so many consecutive FT's.

jkiddvc20
03-04-2012, 11:30 PM
I hope this is a joke. A great game is a great game, but it was against the worst team in the league by a guy shooting 40% on the year. If there are any point guards even in the top 5 players in the league it's CP3 and nobody else. You'd have a hard time convincing me that an inefficient point guard is better than one of: Durant, Lebron, Wade, Howard, Kobe, Dirk, or even guys like Carmelo and Griffin.

Deron Williams is better than Carmelo and Griffin...

I can agree with Durant, Lebron, Wade, Howard, Kobe, and Dirk and he is the best PG in the game tied with Cp3

Young and Stupid
03-04-2012, 11:33 PM
He is the best PG in the game tied with Cp3

Incorrect.

Over the course of their careers, the gap between Deron Williams and Chris Paul is as large as the one between Carmelo Anthony and LeBron James.

And if you want to point to this season, the gap is even larger.

jkiddvc20
03-04-2012, 11:36 PM
Incorrect.

Over the course of their careers, the gap between Deron Williams and Chris Paul is as large as the one between Carmelo Anthony and LeBron James.

And if you want to point to this season, the gap is even larger.

So how would you rank em then?

I really hope you do not put Rose/West ahead of Deron...

Avenged
03-04-2012, 11:40 PM
So how would you rank em then?

I really hope you do not put Rose/West ahead of Deron...

Why isn't Rose better than Deron?

Young and Stupid
03-04-2012, 11:45 PM
So how would you rank em then?

I really hope you do not put Rose/West ahead of Deron...

1. Chris Paul
2. Derrick Rose


3. Russell Westbrook
4. Deron Williams

5a. Steve Nash
5b. Rajon Rondo

97NYer
03-04-2012, 11:45 PM
Rose is top 5 easily. Deron isn't top 10 anymore if he even ever was.

oak2455
03-04-2012, 11:46 PM
Why isn't Rose better than Deron?

because he's better:rolleyes::D:D:D

oak2455
03-04-2012, 11:47 PM
Good game Dwill...good game!!!

flea
03-04-2012, 11:49 PM
1. Chris Paul
2. Derrick Rose


3. Russell Westbrook
4. Deron Williams

5a. Steve Nash
5b. Rajon Rondo

This is accurate ordering but I would do something more like:

1. CP3


2. Rose
3. Westbrook


4a. Deron
4b. Rondo
5. Nash

I think the gap between Westbrook and Rose is very close.

jkiddvc20
03-04-2012, 11:50 PM
1. Chris Paul
2. Derrick Rose


3. Russell Westbrook
4. Deron Williams

5a. Steve Nash
5b. Rajon Rondo

:facepalm:

Listen I think Deron is better than Rose, but that can be debated I get that but how in the HELL can you put Westbrook over Deron? I just fail to see the logic in that

jkiddvc20
03-04-2012, 11:52 PM
Why isn't Rose better than Deron?

Because I am a biased Nets fan! :D

oak2455
03-04-2012, 11:52 PM
Rose is better but Dwill is getting better if thats possible

nyfinest4life
03-04-2012, 11:54 PM
deron williams is the best pg in the nba. and hes definitely better than cp3, no question is my mind. dwill hasnt played in a big market thats y ppl dont realize how great he is. hes a great passer and he could create for himself and score whenever he wants.

oak2455
03-04-2012, 11:57 PM
deron williams is the best pg in the nba. and hes definitely better than cp3, no question is my mind. dwill hasnt played in a big market thats y ppl dont realize how great he is. hes a great passer and he could create for himself and score whenever he wants.

Jets and Giants play in the same state:D:D:D

Greet
03-04-2012, 11:58 PM
Meh. Even as a HUGE Deron Williams fan, I would rank CP3 above him and Rose.

1. Chris Paul

2a. Dwill
2b. Rose

3. Westbrook
4. Rondo

Young and Stupid
03-04-2012, 11:58 PM
This is accurate ordering but I would do something more like:

1. CP3


2. Rose
3. Westbrook


4a. Deron
4b. Rondo
5. Nash

I think the gap between Westbrook and Rose is very close.

I would bring Rose up one notch (making it one space between he and Paul). Then bring Williams up directly under Westbrook. I don't think Rose and Westbrook are as close you believe them to be -- if you wouldn't mind, please elaborate.

Revised list:

1. Chris Paul

2. Derrick Rose

3. Russell Westbrook
4. Deron Williams

5a. Steve Nash
5b. Rajon Rondo


:facepalm:

Listen I think Deron is better than Rose, but that can be debated I get that but how in the HELL can you put Westbrook over Deron? I just fail to see the logic in that

Well first, the numbers suggest that Derrick Rose is better than Deron Williams. So there's that. Second, having watched Williams -- remember: I am, regrettably, a Nets fan -- he's not an efficient player. He commits careless turnovers, he constantly takes poor shots, he doesn't play defense; he's just not in Rose's league. When his shot is falling (like it was tonight and like it was against the Knicks) he can score, but when it's not he can't. He generally doesn't attack the rim and often settles for long two-pointers or three's. From what I've seen with the Nets, his style is not one which is conducive to efficient, effective and, most importantly, consistent production.

jd25213
03-05-2012, 12:16 AM
D-Will!!!:speechless:

Greet
03-05-2012, 12:19 AM
Well first, the numbers suggest that Derrick Rose is better than Deron Williams. So there's that. Second, having watched Williams -- remember: I am, regrettably, a Nets fan -- he's not an efficient player. He commits careless turnovers, he constantly takes poor shots, he doesn't play defense; he's just not in Rose's league. When his shot is falling (like it was tonight and like it was against the Knicks) he can score, but when it's not he can't. He generally doesn't attack the rim and often settles for long two-pointers or three's. From what I've seen with the Nets, his style is not one which is conducive to efficient, effective and, most importantly, consistent production.

I don't think numbers are exactly showing of everything. Numbers don't compare when Deron was with Utah and had a supporting cast. I'm a Nets fan as well and probably unlike you, I've been a Deron Williams fan since he was drafted. When Deron was playing with a real supporting cast, he was better than Chris Paul. He was the most dominant PG in the NBA. He still has the best offensive repertoire in the NBA outside of Steve Nash.

Deron has always been a "drama queen" so to say. When things go bad, he tends to get frustrated, especially when he's losing. It's been like that his whole career, but those "careless turnovers" is Deron trying to make a play, and get his team going. He's forced to get his team going since of his bad supporting cast. He's forced to take bad shots most of the time since the Nets lack another offensive player who can create his own shot. Which he got when Brook Lopez came back, who still isn't 100%.

He does play defense, I really really hate when people talk about his defense. He isn't like Derrick Rose, Chris Paul or Rajon Rondo. He doesn't have good defenders on his team playing with him. The only decent defender the Nets have outside of Deron is Stevenson (In their main 7 man rotation). He can't make a single mistake, or it's a score. Rose has two top defenders in his starting line-up, Paul has Butler, Jordan and Griffin defending with him and Rondo has Garnett, Bass and Pierce. Deron starts with 4 under average defenders. He can't do it by himself. Try to find me a player that has played elite defensive while having no other good defenders playing with him.

Are we really going to sit here and call Westbrook and Rose efficient scorers and Deron not?

Young and Stupid
03-05-2012, 12:27 AM
I don't think numbers are exactly showing of everything. Numbers don't compare when Deron was with Utah and had a supporting cast. I'm a Nets fan as well and probably unlike you, I've been a Deron Williams fan since he was drafted. When Deron was playing with a real supporting cast, he was better than Chris Paul.

Once again: this year (and even last year if you must) aside, the gap between Chris Paul and Deron Williams is as large as the one between LeBron James and Carmelo Anthony. Williams is not even in Paul's league. If you're not going to accept the only objective bit of information we have (the metrics) then we can't really facilitate a useful (not that this is useful in any real sense) discussion.


Deron has always been a "drama queen" so to say. When things go bad, he tends to get frustrated, especially when he's losing.


So we can't look at the numbers or the intangibles? Interesting.


He does play defense, I really really hate when people talk about his defense. He isn't like Derrick Rose, Chris Paul or Rajon Rondo. He doesn't have good defenders on his team playing with him. The only decent defender the Nets have outside of Deron is Stevenson (In their main 7 man rotation). He can't make a single mistake, or it's a score. Rose has two top defenders in his starting line-up, Paul has Butler, Jordan and Griffin defending with him and Rondo has Garnett, Bass and Pierce. Deron starts with 4 under average defenders. He can't do it by himself. Try to find me a player that has played elite defensive while having no other good defenders playing with him.


I can't say that I watched him with the Jazz (aside from in the playoffs), but having watched almost every game he's played with the Nets, I can tell you that he's not a good defender. Which, quite honestly, has surprised me because he had the reputation for being a good defensive player. I know the Nets are a putrid team defensively (remember: I am a Nets fan), but from what I've seen Williams is not a good individual defender. Whether that's from lack of effort, I don't know, but the fact still remains.


Are we really going to sit here and call Westbrook and Rose efficient scorers and Deron not?

Didn't say they were efficient scorers; just more efficient scorers than Deron Williams.

LA_Raiders
03-05-2012, 12:29 AM
The Next Laker....

DWill/Kobe/Gasol/Bynum will dominate next season... I hope so

jmoney85
03-05-2012, 12:33 AM
The Next Laker....

DWill/Kobe/Gasol/Bynum will dominate next season... I hope so

will never happen

LA_Raiders
03-05-2012, 12:33 AM
1-CP3
2-Rose
3-Dwill
4-Rondo
5-Westbrook

DeyAce
03-05-2012, 12:40 AM
you gotta put him the mvp discussions now

Greet
03-05-2012, 12:43 AM
Once again: this year (and even last year if you must) aside, the gap between Chris Paul and Deron Williams is as large as the one between LeBron James and Carmelo Anthony. Williams is not even in Paul's league. If you're not going to accept the only objective bit of information we have (the metrics) then we can't really facilitate a useful (not that this is useful in any real sense) discussion.

http://www.basketball-reference.com/play-index/h2h_finder.cgi?request=1&p1=willide01&p2=paulch01

When Deron was in Utah he dominated CP3 head-to-head. I already have stated that Chris Paul is a better PG than Deron Williams right now, but to say that a gap is that big is a joke.



So we can't look at the numbers or the intangibles? Interesting.

Sorry, what do you consider intangibles? Are you going to argue against his leadership? I guess we're going to knock him for trying to hard. Like I said, he tries to get his team back into the game, especially with the Nets when he's FORCED to take bad shots.

Like you said, you haven't watched him in Utah. Deron Williams is one of the best playoff performers of the past 10 years. He was dominant in Utah, and hopefully one day as a Net we can both watch him back in the playoffs.

There aren't many other players I would want taking a last shot for me outside of Deron Williams. Arguing against his intangibles is silly. Perfect example? Look at the Philly game this year.


I can't say that I watched him with the Jazz (aside from in the playoffs), but having watched almost every game he's played with the Nets, I can tell you that he's not a good defender. Which, quite honestly, has surprised me because he had the reputation for being a good defensive player. I know the Nets are a putrid team defensively (remember: I am a Nets fan), but from what I've seen Williams is not a good individual defender. Whether that's from lack of effort, I don't know, but the fact still remains.

He was an uh overrated defender in Utah. His physicality is really what made him a good defender, and he still has that. The only difference is that he doesn't have other good defenders behind him, like he did in Utah. Individual defense is dumb to look at it. Just remember that he went from Jerry Sloan to Avery Johnson. He went from a good supporting cast, to possibly the worst in the league. I don't think you can question his effort, that's silly. Derrick Rose was a horrible defender until Thibs came over. Now he's "one of the best"


Didn't say they were efficient scorers; just more efficient scorers than Deron Williams.

What are we using for efficiency?


Deron Williams(career) .558 TS% .503 eFG%
Derrick Rose(career) .537 TS% .489 eFG%
Russel Westbrook(career) .514 TS% .443 eFG%

Hawkeye15
03-05-2012, 12:56 AM
Holy ****. I just saw this now. That is simply amazing

blahblahyoutoo
03-05-2012, 12:57 AM
Incorrect.

Over the course of their careers, the gap between Deron Williams and Chris Paul is as large as the one between Carmelo Anthony and LeBron James.

And if you want to point to this season, the gap is even larger.

disagree.
it's a toss up between cp3, rose and dwill for me.

ndfightirish12
03-05-2012, 01:00 AM
Rose is top 5 easily. Deron isn't top 10 anymore if he even ever was.

please tell me whos the top 10 im begging to know who you have over deron plus to say he never was top 10 is absolutely ridiculous

Greet
03-05-2012, 01:01 AM
disagree.
it's a toss up between cp3, rose and dwill for me.

That's exactly what it should be. It's a matter of opinion and preference. I've been watching Deron since he was drafted, and there isn't a PG in the NBA I would take over him.

All 3 of them have their flaws, just depends on what you prefer.

SportsAndrew25
03-05-2012, 01:26 AM
Great performance by Deron Williams. Too bad that guy is on a team that sucks.

RipCity32
03-05-2012, 01:33 AM
Pretty sure after this game he has put himself in top 5 players.

:facepalm:

Hawkeye15
03-05-2012, 01:35 AM
Is there talk of him being a top 5 player? I would argue he may be outside the top 10 right now.

Greet
03-05-2012, 01:37 AM
Is there talk of him being a top 5 player? I would argue he may be outside the top 10 right now.

Outside of the top 10? Oh come on man.

Baller1
03-05-2012, 01:37 AM
Is there talk of him being a top 5 player? I would argue he may be outside the top 10 right now.

Right now? I can agree with that.

But I definitely think he has the ability, and will eventually be considered a top 10 player again soon.

tyfreaks brotha
03-05-2012, 01:52 AM
Damnnnnn

iam brett favre
03-05-2012, 01:54 AM
He isn't elite though, right?
Oh wait. No. He is. And he's the best PG in the league.

PatsSoxKnicks
03-05-2012, 01:56 AM
I don't think numbers are exactly showing of everything. Numbers don't compare when Deron was with Utah and had a supporting cast. I'm a Nets fan as well and probably unlike you, I've been a Deron Williams fan since he was drafted. When Deron was playing with a real supporting cast, he was better than Chris Paul. He was the most dominant PG in the NBA. He still has the best offensive repertoire in the NBA outside of Steve Nash.


I know you had asked me for my opinion on Deron Williams and Marshon Brooks. Considering I'm a Brooks fan (PC Friars fan), it's tough for me to rate him without being biased. However, in regards to Deron vs. CP3, I strongly disagree here. I actually like both PGs (I like both of their games because I think both of them have amazing offensive repertoire's along with Nash) but I do not think that prime Paul and prime Deron were that close. To be honest, prime CP3 had seasons that rivaled Magic and Stockton in terms of his level of play. He actually should've been the MVP in 08. I'm not really knocking Deron here, it's just that CP3 in 08-09 had just flat out dominant seasons.

Also, when it comes to the intangibles stuff (which can be measured by adjusted +/-), CP3 is in the top 5 from 03-09 (data based on those 6 years) or top 6 for the 10 year ranking. Deron isn't that close to him in the adjusted +/- #'s. Also, Paul's WS, PER, WARP, etc. #'s in 08-09 were simply insane.

Although, if you're going simply on watching each play, they look comparable. But what our eyes miss is years and years of games (which the data sees) and the data/metrics like prime Paul quite a bit more than Deron. Personally, I think the big difference is Paul has been more consistent over his career.

Also, Paul's ability in the clutch is another advantage he holds over Deron.
http://www.nba.com/2011/news/features/john_schuhmann/01/27/hornets-chris-paul-clutch/index.html?ls=iref:nbahpt1
http://espn.go.com/blog/truehoop/post/_/id/24200/the-truth-about-kobe-bryant-in-crunch-time

Anyways, as for Deron himself, he was unquestionably the 2nd best PG for a couple years. He's fallen behind Rose, although I think if he gets back to his Utah ways, he could surpass Rose again. Personally, going into the season, I still had him ahead of Rose because I wanted to see Rose keep his MVP level of play over more than 1 season but now that he has, he probably has passed Deron. However, if Deron regains his old form, I think he can re-take that #2 PG in the league. Paul, with his knees, may decline soon too so he's got a chance at #1 if he plays at this level. As of right now, he needs to show more consistency.

For what its worth though, I'd definitely trade Carmelo for him. Not that the Nets would do that.

RipCity32
03-05-2012, 01:57 AM
He isn't elite though, right?
Oh wait. No. He is. And he's the best PG in the league.

Hes elite but i still think this is the order for the PGs
1.Paul
2.Rose
3.DWill

llemon
03-05-2012, 02:00 AM
Steve Nash is the PG with the best offense.

Steve Nash may be the best shooter in NBA history.

But at this point, while his passing is still superior to Deron's, DWill's offense is much better than Steve's at this point.

Greet
03-05-2012, 02:01 AM
I know you had asked me for my opinion on Deron Williams and Marshon Brooks. Considering I'm a Brooks fan (PC Friars fan), it's tough for me to rate him without being biased. However, in regards to Deron vs. CP3, I strongly disagree here. I actually like both PGs (I like both of their games because I think both of them have amazing offensive repertoire's along with Nash) but I do not think that prime Paul and prime Deron were that close. To be honest, prime CP3 had seasons that rivaled Magic and Stockton in terms of his level of play. He actually should've been the MVP in 08. I'm not really knocking Deron here, it's just that CP3 in 08-09 had just flat out dominant seasons.

Also, when it comes to the intangibles stuff (which can be measured by adjusted +/-), CP3 is in the top 5 from 03-09 (data based on those 6 years) or top 6 for the 10 year ranking. Deron isn't that close to him in the adjusted +/- #'s. Also, Paul's WS, PER, WARP, etc. #'s in 08-09 were simply insane.

Although, if you're going simply on watching each play, they look comparable. But what our eyes miss is years and years of games (which the data sees) and the data/metrics like prime Paul quite a bit more than Deron. Personally, I think the big difference is Paul has been more consistent over his career.

My point was that when Deron was in Utah, it was almost ALWAYS 1a and 1b with him and Chris Paul. Nash put up the better stats than Jason Kidd, but did he have a better career? **** no.

Also, how do you have statistics for intangibles? Doesn't that just totally contradict with what intangibles are.

iam brett favre
03-05-2012, 02:05 AM
Hes elite but i still think this is the order for the PGs
1.Paul
2.Rose
3.DWill

I can respect that, but anyone that says he isn't top 3 at worst - they do not know anything about the NBA.

Greet
03-05-2012, 02:06 AM
Also, Paul's ability in the clutch is another advantage he holds over Deron.
http://www.nba.com/2011/news/features/john_schuhmann/01/27/hornets-chris-paul-clutch/index.html?ls=iref:nbahpt1
http://espn.go.com/blog/truehoop/post/_/id/24200/the-truth-about-kobe-bryant-in-crunch-time

Well honestly it's not that big of a margin using those stats.

Most likely Deron's final shots went against better teams, better defenses. Since he was on a much better team, the close games the Jazz played where more than likely (not 100% sure) better teams than the Hornets close game opponents.

PatsSoxKnicks
03-05-2012, 02:08 AM
Right now? I can agree with that.

But I definitely think he has the ability, and will eventually be considered a top 10 player again soon.

x2. While I realize the Nets don't have that much talent right now, their record should be better then it is if Deron is going to be considered a top 10 player.

Greet
03-05-2012, 02:11 AM
Anyways, as for Deron himself, he was unquestionably the 2nd best PG for a couple years. He's fallen behind Rose, although I think if he gets back to his Utah ways, he could surpass Rose again. Personally, going into the season, I still had him ahead of Rose because I wanted to see Rose keep his MVP level of play over more than 1 season but now that he has, he probably has passed Deron. However, if Deron regains his old form, I think he can re-take that #2 PG in the league. Paul, with his knees, may decline soon too so he's got a chance at #1 if he plays at this level. As of right now, he needs to show more consistency.

For what its worth though, I'd definitely trade Carmelo for him. Not that the Nets would do that.

I have a hard time ranking Rose ahead of him. I think supporting cast plays a bigger role in this than you can imagine. The Nets are often playing from behind because of their horrible team, forcing Deron to take a lot of shots, with them being not the best looks. While the Bulls are often playing from ahead, playing great defense and getting easy shots because of their defense. Nets are towards the bottom in fast break points, with the Bulls being towards the top.

iam brett favre
03-05-2012, 02:11 AM
You could put anyone else in the league on the Nets and replace Deron, and they would still not be a playoff team. That includes LeBron.

Greet
03-05-2012, 02:13 AM
x2. While I realize the Nets don't have that much talent right now, their record should be better then it is if Deron is going to be considered a top 10 player.

Name one top 10 player in the NBA that has a supporting cast like Deron, and has a good record.

The closest I could even think of is Dirk, but the Mavs talent >>>>>>>>>>>>> the Nets.

Greet
03-05-2012, 02:14 AM
Also, the Nets have been without Brook Lopez for basically the whole season. Give anyone in the NBA a rotation of Johan Petro-Shelden Williams at C, and let me know how they would do.

Young and Stupid
03-05-2012, 02:17 AM
You could put anyone else in the league on the Nets and replace Deron, and they would still not be a playoff team. That includes LeBron.

If you replace Deron Williams with LeBron James, the Nets are a 2nd-round playoff team. Seriously.

Edit: I gotta say, patsSOXknicks, you're one of the more intelligent Knicks fans I've seen on PSD. I'm impressed. It's probably because you're also a Red Sox fans (you guys tend to have a good grasp on rationality when it involves evaluating performance).

PatsSoxKnicks
03-05-2012, 02:17 AM
My point was that when Deron was in Utah, it was almost ALWAYS 1a and 1b with him and Chris Paul. Nash put up the better stats than Jason Kidd, but did he have a better career? **** no.

Also, how do you have statistics for intangibles? Doesn't that just totally contradict with what intangibles are.

We'll have to agree to disagree here lol. Also, I don't recall Deron ever being in an MVP conversation as CP3 was in his ridiculous 08 season (he was robbed of the MVP). Anyways, what stats are you using? There's a lot of different stats out there, many better than others.

+/- stats are meant to try to measure those intangibles, which is why they exist. However, because +/- numbers are heavily impacted by teammates, you have to use adjusted +/- which adjusts for teammates and opponents. The idea is that whatever is not showing up in the box score is showing up in the +/- numbers. Alone, they aren't of much use but combined with the use of box score stats, it can paint a nice picture of a player.

Dallas' has been paying over 100,000 for these adjusted +/- numbers for the last 10 or so years. I would imagine that these numbers must've helped them last year as they were the only team last year to have an analytics guy on the bench and there were some lineup changes in the Finals that made a big difference for them.

SportsAndrew25
03-05-2012, 02:18 AM
Put that ***** on the Knicks. He could win them five championships easily.

greg_ory_2005
03-05-2012, 02:19 AM
He went HAM

Greet
03-05-2012, 02:20 AM
We'll have to agree to disagree here lol. Also, I don't recall Deron ever being in an MVP conversation as CP3 was in his ridiculous 08 season (he was robbed of the MVP). Anyways, what stats are you using? There's a lot of different stats out there, many better than others.

+/- stats are meant to try to measure those intangibles, which is why they exist. However, because +/- numbers are heavily impacted by teammates, you have to use adjusted +/- which adjusts for teammates and opponents. The idea is that whatever is not showing up in the box score is showing up in the +/- numbers. Alone, they aren't of much use but combined with the use of box score stats, it can paint a nice picture of a player.

Dallas' has been paying over 100,000 for these adjusted +/- numbers for the last 10 or so years. I would imagine that these numbers must've helped them last year as they were the only team last year to have an analytics guy on the bench and there were some lineup changes in the Finals that made a big difference for them.

So do you have access to the stats that Dallas payed for? (serious question)

Also we're using MVP as a way to compare players? Steve Nash has two MVPs, is he better than Kidd?

Derrick Rose shouldn't have won MVP last year.

But like you said, agree to disagree.

PatsSoxKnicks
03-05-2012, 02:21 AM
Well honestly it's not that big of a margin using those stats.

Most likely Deron's final shots went against better teams, better defenses. Since he was on a much better team, the close games the Jazz played where more than likely (not 100% sure) better teams than the Hornets close game opponents.

I would certainly take Deron on my team in the clutch but I would just take Paul over him. As for those numbers, it's over their entire career, which means that its a significant sample size and there's no way to know which came against better teams.

Deron being on a better team doesn't mean he played more close games against better teams. Also, I'm not sure that Deron's Jazz win% was that much different than Paul's Hornets win%.

PatsSoxKnicks
03-05-2012, 02:24 AM
You could put anyone else in the league on the Nets and replace Deron, and they would still not be a playoff team. That includes LeBron.

In the east, I could see Lebron on the Nets leading them to the playoffs. Heck, he took some pretty talent less Cavs teams to the playoffs. The 07 team made the Finals, with not much around him at all.

iam brett favre
03-05-2012, 02:25 AM
If you replace Deron Williams with LeBron James, the Nets are a 2nd-round playoff team. Seriously.

Nope. They wouldn't be, actually. Seriously.

PatsSoxKnicks
03-05-2012, 02:28 AM
Name one top 10 player in the NBA that has a supporting cast like Deron, and has a good record.

The closest I could even think of is Dirk, but the Mavs talent >>>>>>>>>>>>> the Nets.

Lebron's Cavs teams didn't have that much talent, although his teams certainly had a lot of depth, even if the depth was a bunch of average players.

How about Bosh in Toronto? Or Pau Gasol in Memphis? Those guys didn't have that much around them and managed to be on the fringe of the playoffs.

metsrock229
03-05-2012, 02:28 AM
Not sure if anyone mentioned it but this was almost the exact same offensive stat line that reggie miller had on nov 28th 1992.

Both 16-29, 4-11 from 3, both hit 21 free throws, only difference is miller had 23 attempts. Came across that and thought it was pretty cool. Obviously the both scored 57 as well

Greet
03-05-2012, 02:29 AM
Lebron's Cavs teams didn't have that much talent, although his teams certainly had a lot of depth, even if the depth was a bunch of average players.

How about Bosh in Toronto? Or Pau Gasol in Memphis? Those guys didn't have that much around them and managed to be on the fringe of the playoffs.

Oh come on. Those teams had more talent than the Nets.

Edit: And I'm talking about today.

PatsSoxKnicks
03-05-2012, 02:32 AM
Edit: I gotta say, patsSOXknicks, you're one of the more intelligent Knicks fans I've seen on PSD. I'm impressed. It's probably because you're also a Red Sox fans (you guys tend to have a good grasp on rationality when it involves evaluating performance).

Thanks. For me personally, having watched a lot of bad basketball over the last decade, I've been able to remain pretty neutral about the NBA.

Baller1
03-05-2012, 02:32 AM
You could put anyone else in the league on the Nets and replace Deron, and they would still not be a playoff team. That includes LeBron.

In the East?! I'd put money on Lebron, Durant, and Dwight being able to do that. The bottom of the East is ****ing trash, just about anyone has a chance.

PatsSoxKnicks
03-05-2012, 02:37 AM
So do you have access to the stats that Dallas payed for? (serious question)

Also we're using MVP as a way to compare players? Steve Nash has two MVPs, is he better than Kidd?

Derrick Rose shouldn't have won MVP last year.

But like you said, agree to disagree.

Not the particular stats that Cuban payed for. Those stats aren't made public for obvious reasons but adjusted +/- can be found on basketballvalue.com or you can go to this site for RAPM: http://stats-for-the-nba.appspot.com/

I've read that the adjusted +/- numbers found on basketballvalue.com aren't much different from the numbers Cuban pays Wayne Winston for. It's based on the same methodology I believe. The guy who came up with the adjusted +/- #'s found on basketballvalue ended up getting a job with the Cavs.

No, I wouldn't use MVP to compare players. But the advanced metrics point to 08-09 Paul being better and it not being that close.

Agreed about Rose not being the MVP last year.

And yeah, agree to disagree lol.

sargon21
03-05-2012, 02:37 AM
I'd take Dwill over Rose, but that's just personal preference, you can't go wrong with either.

not at the end of games... aka the most important part of the games

actually scratch that, rose>dwill simply put

PatsSoxKnicks
03-05-2012, 02:39 AM
Oh come on. Those teams had more talent than the Nets.

Edit: And I'm talking about today.

I haven't taken an in depth look so maybe those teams did have more talent but from what I remember, they were comparable.

And the East is horrible so I do feel like Deron's Nets should have a better record.

Young and Stupid
03-05-2012, 02:39 AM
Thanks. For me personally, having watched a lot of bad basketball over the last decade, I've been able to remain pretty neutral about the NBA.

Heh. Never really thought about it that way. I always took pride in my ability to remain objective when it comes to analyzing sports, but maybe it's only because I'm a Nets and Jets fan.

I would counter to the preceding with the fact that I'm a Yankees fan, but they haven't been as successful over the past ten years (I'm only 20) as they were in the late 90's.

I still don't see how Chris Paul and Deron Williams are comparable, by the way. The disparity between the two is too large for me to even justify having a conversation about who the better player is. (Head-to-head matchups are a severely flawed entity to point to.) To me, the reaction should be the same as it would be if I tried to argue that Carmelo Anthony is better than LeBron James; because, once again, that's how big the gap is between Chris Paul and Deron Williams.

Greet
03-05-2012, 02:42 AM
I haven't taken an in depth look so maybe those teams did have more talent but from what I remember, they were comparable.

And the East is horrible so I do feel like Deron's Nets should have a better record.

I would agree with you if they had Brook Lopez playing the whole season, but they haven't.

The Nets have been rotating Johan Petro and Shelden Williams at C for christ sakes.

Now what's going to happen if the Nets get Dwight Howard and give Deron a legit player to play with. I'd almost guarantee his numbers increase tremendously, and people's excuse will be that he's playing with Howard.

PatsSoxKnicks
03-05-2012, 02:54 AM
Heh. Never really thought about it that way. I always took pride in my ability to remain objective when it comes to analyzing sports, but maybe it's only because I'm a Nets and Jets fan.

I would counter to the preceding with the fact that I'm a Yankees fan, but they haven't been as successful over the past ten years (I'm only 20) as they were in the late 90's.

I still don't see how Chris Paul and Deron Williams are comparable, by the way. The disparity between the two is too large for me to even justify having a conversation about who the better player is. (Head-to-head matchups are a severely flawed entity to point to.) To me, the reaction should be the same as it would be if I tried to argue that Carmelo Anthony is better than LeBron James; because, once again, that's how big the gap is between Chris Paul and Deron Williams.

Yeah, I certainly do have my favorites (I'm probably not objective about Lin or MarShon Brooks- PC Friars fan) and non-favorites but I try to remain objective.

And I don't think they are comparable. Not sure if I said they were but I don't think they are. Prime Paul in 08-09 had a pair of seasons that rivaled Magic, MJ, Lebron etc. He was that good in those 2 years.

In fact, he came out looking better than a lot of all-time great PGs when I tried to evaluate him numerically based on his WS #'s:
http://forums.prosportsdaily.com/showpost.php?p=19738831&postcount=31
http://forums.prosportsdaily.com/showthread.php?t=634461

Obviously, that made me realize I still probably have some kinks to work out but the dude was simply unreal those 2 seasons and even now.

PatsSoxKnicks
03-05-2012, 03:03 AM
I would agree with you if they had Brook Lopez playing the whole season, but they haven't.

The Nets have been rotating Johan Petro and Shelden Williams at C for christ sakes.

Now what's going to happen if the Nets get Dwight Howard and give Deron a legit player to play with. I'd almost guarantee his numbers increase tremendously, and people's excuse will be that he's playing with Howard.

A decent amount of teams have been rotating replacement level players at one position or another. For example, the Lakers PGs have been below replacement level for the whole season (so has Metta World Peace). So were the Knicks PGs until Lin came in. Felton has played at basically replacement level this year for the Trail Blazers.

Obviously, unlike the Lakers, the Nets don't have 3 star players who make up for horrible play surrounding them. However, it's not like you don't have some decent players on the Nets- Brooks is decent and Hump has been very good this year. Farmar has also been good in the minutes he's gotten (he's got a high TS%).

Also, saying Deron is just outside the top 10 isn't really an insult. I certainly think he was a top 10 player a couple years ago but his play just hasn't been up to his old standards this year and also, some other young guys have taken huge steps forward. Although, looking closely, I see this is the first year he's used over 30% of his teams possessions, which is certainly hurting his efficiency. I will say this though, when he gets on fire, he is a damn pleasure to watch. I watched that Knicks-Nets game a couple weeks ago and Deron was just lighting us up. I've always loved his game and he doesn't have many weaknesses in his overall game.

I don't know, I haven't come up with a definitive top 10 list, so he may crack it or he may be on the fringe. Also, Howard might be the 2nd most valuable player in the game, so adding someone like that is obviously going to help.

Raph12
03-05-2012, 03:06 AM
DWill has always been able to score, this isn't as "shocking" as many make it seem...

shep33
03-05-2012, 03:20 AM
Unreal game. Guy is crazy good. Weird that they only won by 3

oak2455
03-05-2012, 07:48 AM
Unreal game. Guy is crazy good. Weird that they only won by 3

:eyebrow:

Greet
03-05-2012, 08:29 AM
A decent amount of teams have been rotating replacement level players at one position or another. For example, the Lakers PGs have been below replacement level for the whole season (so has Metta World Peace). So were the Knicks PGs until Lin came in. Felton has played at basically replacement level this year for the Trail Blazers.

Okay but there's a difference, when the Nets have that rotation at two positions, and even outside of those two rotations and DWill everyone else is average at best, it's hard. Using the Lakers is stupid, since obviously as you state, they have 3 star players on one team and one of the best players to ever play the game. Knicks as well, so they had a bad rotation at PG until Lin and now they have a very strong one (Lin/BDiddy/Shump). The Knicks are under .500 and they have one of the deepest teams in the league. So I guess we can't call Carmelo a top 10 player than.



Also, saying Deron is just outside the top 10 isn't really an insult. I certainly think he was a top 10 player a couple years ago but his play just hasn't been up to his old standards this year and also, some other young guys have taken huge steps forward. Although, looking closely, I see this is the first year he's used over 30% of his teams possessions, which is certainly hurting his efficiency. I will say this though, when he gets on fire, he is a damn pleasure to watch. I watched that Knicks-Nets game a couple weeks ago and Deron was just lighting us up. I've always loved his game and he doesn't have many weaknesses in his overall game.

He's forced to be used in over 30% of his team possessions. He's the only one who can create his own shot and try to get a good look. I've seen him on the floor with Morrow, Stevenson, Shelden Williams and Johan Petro at one time. That's like Deron, Morrow and 3 negative offensive players.

What do you think of his defense?

pebloemer
03-05-2012, 09:20 AM
poses the question. which player had the best game?

Oh for sure Deron. Rondo's stat line is more even (and I'm really curious when the last time a player got 20/20/20 is, because Rondo was very close), but I'll take the efficient 57/6/7 over the extra rebounds and assists any day.

heyman321
03-05-2012, 10:10 AM
Oh for sure Deron. Rondo's stat line is more even (and I'm really curious when the last time a player got 20/20/20 is, because Rondo was very close), but I'll take the efficient 57/6/7 over the extra rebounds and assists any day.

Lol what? Those 20 assists mean's he was almost directly responsible for at least 40 points, and 17 rebounds means he was also responsible for more potential points and less potential points for the opponent.

Greet
03-05-2012, 10:15 AM
Lol what? Those 20 assists mean's he was almost directly responsible for at least 40 points, and 17 rebounds means he was also responsible for more potential points and less potential points for the opponent.

If only it worked that way, eh?

pebloemer
03-05-2012, 10:25 AM
Lol what? Those 20 assists mean's he was almost directly responsible for at least 40 points, and 17 rebounds means he was also responsible for more potential points and less potential points for the opponent.

Lol what indeed.

I can pass to a player who makes a great move and finishes the play and I get an assist for giving him the ball and letting him do all the work. Every assist takes place in context. You are making a huge assumption with the statement your making. I didn't watch the game so I absolutely can't take the context of each assist into account. But I do know that every assist require a teammate to finish the play.

I've seen enough NBA games to know that that teammate scoring is more often the more meaningful play than the teammate giving him the ball. If you feel like breaking each assist down for me and letting me know how many led to dunks, layups, open shots, contested shots, or which ones had very little to do with the ball ending up in the hoop, I'll give the argument consideration. But as of now I'm certain that Deron Williams had a monumental part in just about all 57 points he put up.

Every rebound also takes place in context. How many of those rebounds would result in a teammate getting the board and how many would result in the other team getting the ball?

A 18/17/20 stat line looks much better in a fantasy league, but the efficient57/6/7 shows more tangible impact on carrying a team to win a game.

heyman321
03-05-2012, 10:32 AM
Lol what indeed.

I can pass to a player who makes a great move and finishes the play and I get an assist for giving him the ball and letting him do all the work. Every assist takes place in context. You are making a huge assumption with the statement your making. I didn't watch the game so I absolutely can't take the context of each assist into account. But I do know that every assist require a teammate to finish the play.

I've seen enough NBA games to know that that teammate scoring is more often the more meaningful play than the teammate giving him the ball. If you feel like breaking each assist down for me and letting me know how many led to dunks, layups, open shots, contested shots, or which ones had very little to do with the ball ending up in the hoop, I'll give the argument consideration. But as of now I'm certain that Deron Williams had a monumental part in just about all 57 points he put up.

Every rebound also takes place in context. How many of those rebounds would result in a teammate getting the board and how many would result in the other team getting the ball?

A 18/17/20 stat line looks much better in a fantasy league, but the efficient57/6/7 shows more tangible impact on carrying a team to win a game.

Except Rondo is exactly the type of point guard who automatically sets you up or "spoon feeds" you if you will. Like Steve Nash does, he gets you in open situations where you just lay it in, and most of those assists were exactly that.

WadeKobe
03-05-2012, 10:38 AM
Lol what indeed.

I can pass to a player who makes a great move and finishes the play and I get an assist for giving him the ball and letting him do all the work. Every assist takes place in context. You are making a huge assumption with the statement your making. I didn't watch the game so I absolutely can't take the context of each assist into account. But I do know that every assist require a teammate to finish the play.

This is 100% false

oak2455
03-05-2012, 10:40 AM
Lol what? Those 20 assists mean's he was almost directly responsible for at least 40 points, and 17 rebounds means he was also responsible for more potential points and less potential points for the opponent.

Why bother

todu82
03-05-2012, 10:44 AM
Good for Williams. Thought it was vs. Charlotte 57 points is still extremely impressive.

king4day
03-05-2012, 11:53 AM
I went to this game. It was pretty amazing to see.
More amazing was that people actually went to this game knowing two high lottery teams were playing. Fan turnout wasn't that bad all considering.

llemon
03-05-2012, 12:01 PM
Oh for sure Deron. Rondo's stat line is more even (and I'm really curious when the last time a player got 20/20/20 is, because Rondo was very close), but I'll take the efficient 57/6/7 over the extra rebounds and assists any day.

Wilt is the only player to have a 20/20/20 game. He did it once.

Rentzias
03-05-2012, 12:20 PM
Not sure how accurate Game Score is for anything, but D-Will's game was 46.1 to Rondo's 22.8.

pebloemer
03-05-2012, 01:03 PM
Except Rondo is exactly the type of point guard who automatically sets you up or "spoon feeds" you if you will. Like Steve Nash does, he gets you in open situations where you just lay it in, and most of those assists were exactly that.

If that's the case, then it the argument has much more merit. As I said, I didn't watch either of the games, I'm simply stating which "stat line" I'd prefer from a player on my team. The broad statement that 20 assists means he was "almost directly responsible for at least 40 points" is a generalization. I've seen assists given out incredibly liberally around the league.


This is 100% false

I'm not sure what you are claiming is false. That every assist takes place within a context? Requires someone else to finish the play?


Wilt is the only player to have a 20/20/20 game. He did it once.

Wow. Thanks for looking that up.

jericho
03-05-2012, 01:23 PM
for the 1s that say that deron in his utah days was better than cp3 just to let you guys know while deron had a better team those yrs cp3s team just sucked and he always kept them in the playoff race while putting good numbers

now for the 1s that are saying that drose has been better statisctly than dwill pls look up the stats b4 yall talk

dwill
PPG 22.6
RPG 3.5
APG 8.2
SPG 1.1
BPG 0.4
FG% 0.414
FT% 0.864
3P% 0.361
MPG 37.2

drose
PPG 22.8
RPG 3.2
APG 7.7
SPG 0.9
BPG 0.7
FG% 0.465
FT% 0.817
3P% 0.320
MPG 35.4

the only 1 that rose has a big advantage on is to with 2.9 to dwill 4.2 or something but its kinda difficult for somebody to make less turnovers when you basicly have to carry your team night in and night out dwill team sucks so there is more expeted from him will rose can sit down a few games and his team still has a shot at winning those games

waveycrockett
03-05-2012, 01:32 PM
Oh for sure Deron. Rondo's stat line is more even (and I'm really curious when the last time a player got 20/20/20 is, because Rondo was very close), but I'll take the efficient 57/6/7 over the extra rebounds and assists any day.

Lol what? Those 20 assists mean's he was almost directly responsible for at least 40 points, and 17 rebounds means he was also responsible for more potential points and less potential points for the opponent.
Those assists mean paul pierce couldnt miss. If Deron had Pierce last night he would have 20assits also

PatsSoxKnicks
03-05-2012, 02:42 PM
Okay but there's a difference, when the Nets have that rotation at two positions, and even outside of those two rotations and DWill everyone else is average at best, it's hard. Using the Lakers is stupid, since obviously as you state, they have 3 star players on one team and one of the best players to ever play the game. Knicks as well, so they had a bad rotation at PG until Lin and now they have a very strong one (Lin/BDiddy/Shump). The Knicks are under .500 and they have one of the deepest teams in the league. So I guess we can't call Carmelo a top 10 player than.

Yup, Carmelo is not a top 10 player. And to be honest, I'm not sure that he ever has been. I may be a Knicks fan but that doesn't mean I have to have my head up Melo's *** like some of my fellow fans. I don't think he's a top 10 player and to be honest, I've never really liked his game.

I'd definitely do a Carmelo for Deron trade btw. Not sure that the Nets would though.



He's forced to be used in over 30% of his team possessions. He's the only one who can create his own shot and try to get a good look. I've seen him on the floor with Morrow, Stevenson, Shelden Williams and Johan Petro at one time. That's like Deron, Morrow and 3 negative offensive players.

What do you think of his defense?

Right, makes sense. When you have lesser teammates, a great player like Deron will see his USG rate increase. However, despite that increased USG rate, he's still not maintaining the efficiency of a guy like Durant, Lebron, Wade or even a Westbrook, who all have similar USG rates.

BTW, you were wondering about top 10 players who could carry their team to the playoffs with crap talent. Perfect example is Wade with Miami before he got Lebron and Bosh. That team in 09-10 was horrible outside of Wade, leading to a league high 34.9 USG rate but a TS%/ORtg still higher than Deron's is now.

Anyways, not blaming Deron but I just don't think he's in that Lebron/Howard/Durant category. He's a notch below. As I said earlier, I haven't come up with a top 10 list but he may be fringe top 10.

flea
03-05-2012, 02:55 PM
BTW, you were wondering about top 10 players who could carry their team to the playoffs with crap talent. Perfect example is Wade with Miami before he got Lebron and Bosh. That team in 09-10 was horrible outside of Wade, leading to a league high 34.9 USG rate but a TS%/ORtg still higher than Deron's is now.

Anyways, not blaming Deron but I just don't think he's in that Lebron/Howard/Durant category. He's a notch below. As I said earlier, I haven't come up with a top 10 list but he may be fringe top 10.
Exactly, nice to see a level-headed Knicks fan. Think about the Orlando Magic in 2002-2003. Outside of T-Mac pre-injury, they had Grant Hill for 29 games and that's it and he carried them to a winning record. Top 5 and even top 10 players do better than a sub-.350 winning percentage.

Young and Stupid
03-05-2012, 04:23 PM
As I said earlier, I haven't come up with a top 10 list but he may be fringe top 10.

Gonna derail this thread and try to spark a mini top-10 list discussion. Here's mine:

1) LeBron James


2) Dwyane Wade
3) Dwight Howard
4) Chris Paul

5) Kevin Durant
6) Derrick Rose

7) Dirk Nowitzki
8) Kobe Bryant
9) Kevin Love

10) LaMarcus Aldridge

PatsSoxKnicks
03-05-2012, 04:34 PM
Gonna derail this thread and try to spark a mini top-10 list discussion. Here's mine:

1) LeBron James


2) Dwyane Wade
3) Dwight Howard
4) Chris Paul

5) Kevin Durant
6) Derrick Rose

7) Dirk Nowitzki
8) Kobe Bryant
9) Kevin Love

10) LaMarcus Aldridge

The last 2 spots could be up a number of different players. Looking at WS totals over the last 2 years:
http://www.basketball-reference.com/play-index/psl_finder.cgi?request=1&match=combined&per_minute_base=36&type=advanced&lg_id=NBA&is_playoffs=N&year_min=2011&year_max=2012&franch_id=&season_start=1&season_end=-1&age_min=0&age_max=99&height_min=0&height_max=99&birth_country_is=Y&birth_country=&is_active=&is_hof=&is_as=&as_comp=gt&as_val=0&pos_is_g=Y&pos_is_gf=Y&pos_is_f=Y&pos_is_fg=Y&pos_is_fc=Y&pos_is_c=Y&pos_is_cf=Y&qual=&c1stat=&c1comp=gt&c1val=&c2stat=&c2comp=gt&c2val=&c3stat=&c3comp=gt&c3val=&c4stat=&c4comp=gt&c4val=&c5stat=&c5comp=gt&c6mult=1.0&c6stat=&order_by=ws

Pau Gasol has got a case as well as Love and Aldridge. Gasol has obviously been nowhere near as good as last year but I think you could still put him at that 10 spot since we've only played about 35 games this year. Other than that, I'd probably agree, even with the order (though Dwight has a case to be #2 but I could see him behind Wade)

After those guys, I'd probably go with Westbrook and then maybe Deron. If Ginobili was consistently healthy, he would probably crack the top 10 but he isn't, so thats a moot point.

flea
03-05-2012, 04:36 PM
My top 10:

1) Lebron
2) Dwight

3a) Durant
3b) Wade
4) CP3

5) Dirk
6) Kobe
7) Rose
8) Westbrook
9) Bynum
10) Love, barely edging Griffin

Greet
03-05-2012, 04:40 PM
Yup, Carmelo is not a top 10 player. And to be honest, I'm not sure that he ever has been. I may be a Knicks fan but that doesn't mean I have to have my head up Melo's *** like some of my fellow fans. I don't think he's a top 10 player and to be honest, I've never really liked his game.

I'd definitely do a Carmelo for Deron trade btw. Not sure that the Nets would though.

Obviously I agree with you. You know I respect your opinion over about everyone on this forum, and you're always the first guy I go to with a question. I'm just not agreeing 100% with what you're saying.



Right, makes sense. When you have lesser teammates, a great player like Deron will see his USG rate increase. However, despite that increased USG rate, he's still not maintaining the efficiency of a guy like Durant, Lebron, Wade or even a Westbrook, who all have similar USG rates.

Similar USG rates, sure. But like the whole point of what I'm saying, Durant is playing with Westbrook. Teams can't just focus defensively on one player, or the other one will burn you. But when you focus on them both, then they both burn you. They also have James Harden playing with them, and two dominant defensive post players.

Then you're talking about Lebron and Wade, arguably the two best players in the NBA. Obviously they're going to be more efficient. They have each other to take the weight off. Deron has nobody even remotely close to that caliber, not even close. He doesn't even have someone close to Bosh.


BTW, you were wondering about top 10 players who could carry their team to the playoffs with crap talent. Perfect example is Wade with Miami before he got Lebron and Bosh. That team in 09-10 was horrible outside of Wade, leading to a league high 34.9 USG rate but a TS%/ORtg still higher than Deron's is now.

Anyways, not blaming Deron but I just don't think he's in that Lebron/Howard/Durant category. He's a notch below. As I said earlier, I haven't come up with a top 10 list but he may be fringe top 10.

Wade had Shaq who was still averaging 20pts/9rebs/2blocks

Shaq averaged 19/10 in the playoffs during that championship run. That alone is better than the Nets supporting cast this year.

I'm not putting him in the Lebron/Howard/Durant category, those are arguably 3 of the 4 most elite players in the league. I'm just saying that he deserves some respect because he is a top 10 player.

Longhornfan1234
03-05-2012, 04:41 PM
Wade is not a top 3 player.... Kobe shut him out on both ends yesterday.


1. LeBron
2. KD
3. Kobe
4. Howard
5. Rose
6. CP3
7. Dirk
8. Deron
9. Kevin Love
10. Westbrook
11. Wade

PatsSoxKnicks
03-05-2012, 04:43 PM
My top 10:

1) Lebron
2) Dwight

3a) Durant
3b) Wade
4) CP3

5) Dirk
6) Kobe
7) Rose
8) Westbrook
9) Bynum
10) Love, barely edging Griffin

Bynum, for me is in the same boat as Ginobili- he's never healthy enough to be top 10 or even fringe top 10. He hasn't played more than 65 games since his 2nd year in the league.

PatsSoxKnicks
03-05-2012, 04:47 PM
Wade is not a top 3 player.... Kobe shut him out on both ends yesterday.


1. LeBron
2. KD
3. Kobe
4. Howard
5. Rose
6. CP3
7. Dirk
8. Deron
9. Kevin Love
10. Westbrook
11. Wade

Your list is terrible. You should stop watching figure skating and watch an NBA game once in awhile. Wade @ #11 :facepalm:

PatsSoxKnicks
03-05-2012, 04:59 PM
Obviously I agree with you. You know I respect your opinion over about everyone on this forum, and you're always the first guy I go to with a question. I'm just not agreeing 100% with what you're saying.

Fair enough. I do respect your opinion. I actually like watching Deron play.




Similar USG rates, sure. But like the whole point of what I'm saying, Durant is playing with Westbrook. Teams can't just focus defensively on one player, or the other one will burn you. But when you focus on them both, then they both burn you. They also have James Harden playing with them, and two dominant defensive post players.

Then you're talking about Lebron and Wade, arguably the two best players in the NBA. Obviously they're going to be more efficient. They have each other to take the weight off. Deron has nobody even remotely close to that caliber, not even close. He doesn't even have someone close to Bosh.

Yeah, not disagreeing with you here but there are many examples of these elite players taking bad teams to the playoffs. As flea mentioned, T-Mac comes to mind.

Also, I was talking about Wade and Lebron before they teamed up. Neither Miami or Cleveland had much in the way of talent. Heck, Lebron left Cleveland and they were god awful last year without him.




Wade had Shaq who was still averaging 20pts/9rebs/2blocks

Shaq averaged 19/10 in the playoffs during that championship run. That alone is better than the Nets supporting cast this year.

I'm not putting him in the Lebron/Howard/Durant category, those are arguably 3 of the 4 most elite players in the league. I'm just saying that he deserves some respect because he is a top 10 player.

I was talking about Wade in 09-10. Shaq wasn't even on the team in those years. Obviously, when Miami won the ship, Shaq was a good #2 option but I'm talking much much later.

And I think if Deron gets back to playing the way he was in Utah, especially his 08-10 seasons, then I think he moves back into the top 10. In fact, I think if he was playing that way right now, the Nets would have a better record.

He's starting to play that way again, so if he keeps it up, I could definitely see him re-entering the top 10. Right now I think he's around the top 10 with guys like Westbrook, Love, Aldridge and Pau. Love might be a step up ahead of those other guys. Pau is trending downwards based on his play this year (although that has a lot to do with him being distracted). Aldridge has been very good this year and is clearly the main reason Portland is in contention for a playoff spot in a very tough WC.

The thing about top 10 lists is that we can say a guy's top 10 but you'd have to actually come up with a list to know for sure. Based on that exercise, I'd have Deron just outside of the top 10 as of right now.

dtmagnet
03-05-2012, 05:09 PM
My top 10:

1) Lebron
2) Dwight

3a) Durant
3b) Wade
4) CP3

5) Dirk
6) Kobe
7) Rose
8) Westbrook
9) Bynum
10) Love, barely edging Griffin

That's 11 people, you either meant top 11 or you put one too many players in that list.

Greet
03-05-2012, 05:11 PM
Fair enough. While I think he's top 10, I can see why somebody wouldn't. I'd argue that every top 20 player (how ever you rank them) have a better supporting cast than Deron Williams

flea
03-05-2012, 05:11 PM
That's 11 people, you either meant top 11 or you put one too many players in that list.

I think outside the box.

iam brett favre
03-05-2012, 05:38 PM
When Skip Bayless talked about Deron Williams today, I never wanted to literally kill a person more. He is trying to say that he isn't even a real point guard, he is a shooting guard.