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Ill21
03-02-2012, 02:41 PM
LeBron having greatest season ever?
John Hollinger [ARCHIVE]

ESPN.com | March 1, 2012
31.89.

That number may not mean much to many of you, but for those of us who track player efficiency rating it represents the hallowed mark of one Michael Jeffrey Jordan in 1987-88, the best mark in the game's modern history. (PER only tracks back to 1977-78, when the league began tracking individual turnovers. While we can estimate that it would have been really, really good, we don't know what Wilt Chamberlain's or Oscar Robertson's PER would have been without individual steals or blocks or offensive/defensive rebound splits.)

PER, for the uninitiated, is a rating of a player's per-minute statistical effectiveness that I developed several years ago. The formula is too long and complex to explain here, but you can learn all about it at this link.

And this season, that mark is in jeopardy.

With half a season in the books, LeBron James' PER stands at 32.41, which not only eclipses Jordan's best season but does so by a full half-point. While we emphasize that this puts him on track for the best regular season in the game's modern history -- James still has much to prove come June -- it nonetheless would represent a spectacular accomplishment.

It also puts another notch in LeBron's career file; even if he doesn't end up breaking Jordan's record, he's likely to add another 31-plus season to his file and give himself three of the top seven all-time PER seasons; Jordan has the other four (see chart). Any way you slice it, he's putting himself in some fairly lofty company.

TOP ALL-TIME PER SEASONS

That, of course, raises all kinds of questions, and I'm going to try to answer a few of them. Let's start from the top:

What are the odds he actually does it?

Still much less than 50-50, I would argue. We have to remember that we're in a shortened season, so James has played only 1,212 minutes -- barely a third of his total in 2008-09, when he threatened the mark until the final week of the season.

In 1,212 minutes we can still see the effects of some outliers, and I'd argue James' shooting percentages fall in that category. While a big chunk of his improvement in true shooting percentage results simply from the decision to shoot fewer 3s, his 56.3 percent mark on 2s still exceeds his career norms, and his 41.3 percent on 3s vastly exceeds it. Additionally, he's at 77.3 percent from the line, bettering his career mark of 74.6 percent.

It's possible he keeps this up for an entire season, but as always the prudent way to bet is on the longer-term trend he established in the other 25,000 minutes of his career. Moreover, those numbers don't need to dip much to have him fall short of Jordan -- when you're dealing with "best all time," even a merely great performance isn't good enough. For instance, if James has a PER of 31.00 in the second half of the season -- which itself would be one of the best marks of all time -- he'll end up falling short.

Second, the last week of the season may hurt his cause. In April of 2009, LeBron's Cavs had the top seed wrapped up and put it in cruise control over the final few games; a coasting James hurt his numbers in those games and lost any shot of catching Jordan. As long as Chicago and Oklahoma City push the Heat for the league's top record this won't be a factor, but should those two fall off the pace then James may again see a late dip. Alternatively, it's possible the Heat will fall off the pace and find themselves locked into the East's second seed.

How is he doing this?

At first glance, it doesn't seem right that James' mark would be so lofty. After all, his per-game averages pale beside the ones he put up in his final two seasons in Cleveland.

This is where factors like adjusting for minutes and normalizing to league averages become important. First, because James is playing only 36.7 minutes per game in Miami rather than the 37.7 he played in 2008-09 or the whopping 39.0 he played in 2009-10, his per-game averages take a bit of a hit.

The more important effect, however, is that of lockoutball. With shooting percentages and offensive efficiency down around the league, it's made what James has done -- crushing his career high in true shooting percentage at 62.4 (his career average is 52.8) -- that much more impressive. Less obviously, James has also gone wild on the boards. His 13.0 rebound rate is the best of any true small forward (Dominic McGuire often plays the 4) and by far the best of his career.

This comparison can be seen more obviously by comparing LeBron to his peers. Take Kevin Durant, for instance, a supernatural scoring machine who has led the league in scoring the past two seasons and annually posts true shooting percentages around 60. Well, James averages more points per minute than Durant this year and has him beat in true shooting percentage, too. Add in that he has by far the best rebound rate of any wing player and that he has the secondary stats of a point guard, ranking 11th in assists and ninth in steals, and it becomes easier to see why this half-season is historic.

Sum it up, and James has dramatically improved his effectiveness as a scorer with no drop-off in the broad-based dominance that had already made him one of the best players in history.

What about Wade?

The most interesting part of LeBron's stats is comparing how he plays with and without Dwyane Wade on the court. Due to an early-season injury to Wade, LeBron has played nearly half his minutes this season without his tag-team partner, and one could argue that's helped him revert to Cleveland mode and taking over games himself.

The potential drawback, obviously, is that a healthy Wade could be a drag on James' stats in the second half of the season. Both this year and last year, James averages only a shade over 15 shots per 36 minutes with Wade on the court, according to this StatsCube comparison on NBA.com. By comparison, James takes 20.3 shots per 36 minutes and more free throws when Wade is off the floor, and his assists increase, too.

That said, the visible anti-synergy between the two a year ago has been replaced with a much better understanding of how to take advantage of each other's strengths. Wade now averages the same number of shots whether James is playing with him or not, although the non-LeBron sample is small (just 153 minutes). Meanwhile, James' field goal percentages zoom up to 58 percent when he plays with Wade, and the difference in shots when Wade is with him is much less than a year ago.

Nonetheless, at the margin one wonders if Wade's health will determine whether James can ultimately set the record. The only way to pull it off is to use a ton of possessions with extremely high efficiency; LeBron has the second item in the bag, but sharing the ball with Wade could still leave him a bit short on the first criteria. Even with the increased efficiency playing with Wade, it's difficult to make up a 25 percent shortfall in shots.

Sum it up and that's one of many reasons that, even with James on pace to crush the PER record, the smart money is still on Mike. But whether he gets there or not, it's been an amazing half-season from James, and one that hasn't received nearly the credit it should have.

Ill21
03-02-2012, 02:43 PM
I had no idea LeBron was playing this good, I knew what his number were but I didn't realize how efficient he has been. My only question is do people not give him as much credit because it is a lockout season?

Hawkeye15
03-02-2012, 02:43 PM
We need to wait until after the finals are over to gauge his season, because at this point, he has had seasons on par with the greats, but hasn't won a chip. That just needs to happen at this stage of Bron's career. And he needs to be the leader in doing so.

justinnum1
03-02-2012, 02:43 PM
After last nights performance, bron raised his per by a half point. It's now over 33

Hawkeye15
03-02-2012, 02:45 PM
I had no idea LeBron was playing this good, I knew what his number were but I didn't realize how efficient he has been. My only question is do people not give him as much credit because it is a lockout season?

If anything, he should get MORE credit due to the lockout season. Typically, efficiency drops when you pack this many games into each week. His advanced numbers are literally insane this year. The biggest * at this point people will use is that his year depends mostly on winning a championship. While I don't buy into that 100%, its time to put up or shut up regarding LeBron.

IDB Josh M
03-02-2012, 02:46 PM
He needs to win a title, otherwise he's nothing more than a stats chaser. I'm sure his legend will be much better than being a stats chaser, but everyone knows, his stats are only as good as the number of rings he gets.

bosox3431
03-02-2012, 02:47 PM
And like all the other sports, the game has changed simce Jordan set the mark.

justinnum1
03-02-2012, 02:47 PM
I had no idea LeBron was playing this good, I knew what his number were but I didn't realize how efficient he has been. My only question is do people not give him as much credit because it is a lockout season?

If anything he should get more credit...across the legues scoring and efficiency is down. But this is one of the excuses haters will use

Wade>You
03-02-2012, 02:49 PM
Can't blame LeBron for the Heat going like 17 minutes w/o a FT in Game 2 - at home, with 2 other guys that reach the FT line over 6 times a game before they joined up - while Dallas was parading to the line. In a game that was lost by 2 points. That would have put the Heat up 3-0 in the series. Alas, this is a league where sketchy officiating plays a big factor in the outcome.

Bad performance aside, the Heat win the championship and everything else is moot.

Hawkeye15
03-02-2012, 02:49 PM
He needs to win a title, otherwise he's nothing more than a stats chaser. I'm sure his legend will be much better than being a stats chaser, but everyone knows, his stats are only as good as the number of rings he gets.

This is what I mean. The average fan thinks only a title vindicates a player and his numbers. While I think that is not the case at all, in order for LeBron to be given his due as a top 10 player, or even top 5 by the end of his career, he needs titles. I have really never put extra weight into winning titles over the other parts of the equation, but public perception does mean something when players become ranked or evaluated.

Long story short, I don't think he ever NEEDS to win a title to become ranked in the top 10. But it sure won't hurt his case, and I understand a large portion of fans do believe he needs to win a title to enter that discussion.

nickdymez
03-02-2012, 02:50 PM
Im glad he's playing so good. I want to see the excuse Lebron lovers have IF he doesn't win it all..

nickdymez
03-02-2012, 02:51 PM
Can't blame LeBron for the Heat going like 17 minutes w/o a FT in Game 2 - at home, with 2 other guys that reach the FT line over 6 times a game before they joined up - while Dallas was parading to the line. In a game that was lost by 2 points. That would have put the Heat up 3-0 in the series. Alas, this is a league where sketchy officiating plays a big factor in the outcome.

Bad performance aside, the Heat win the championship and everything else is moot.

Its ironic you say this because its the same EXCUSE Dallas used when Wade was going to the line every possession when MIA won. You probably weren't a Heat fan then so you didn't watch

Hawkeye15
03-02-2012, 02:52 PM
Can't blame LeBron for the Heat going like 17 minutes w/o a FT in Game 2 - at home, with 2 other guys that reach the FT line over 6 times a game before they joined up - while Dallas was parading to the line. In a game that was lost by 2 points. That would have put the Heat up 3-0 in the series. Alas, this is a league where sketchy officiating plays a big factor in the outcome.

Bad performance aside, the Heat win the championship and everything else is moot.

None of that matters. LeBron was passive, and choked. You know I defend LeBron on this site left and right, but nobody should be defending him for his play in the finals. The Heat lost because LeBron didn't come even close to playing his normal game in that series.

Ill21
03-02-2012, 02:53 PM
It sucks to be in the situation I am in because I am a huge LeBron fan and I would love to see him win but that would mean my Knicks wouldn't be winning.

AIRMAR72
03-02-2012, 02:53 PM
clearly bron his benefiting from wade who making bron more efficient both guys are making noise but i think indy pacers are capable of upsetting any team in the east i view them as this version of lastyr grizzly team but this is the heat yr to win it all

Hawkeye15
03-02-2012, 02:55 PM
It sucks to be in the situation I am in because I am a huge LeBron fan and I would love to see him win but that would mean my Knicks wouldn't be winning.

The Knicks don't have a realistic chance this season. I pull for LeBron so the haters will shut up (or at least die down, they will always come up with something to sleep at night). Besides, all the greats should be playing for championships, its better that way.

justinnum1
03-02-2012, 02:55 PM
Lebron choked, whatever. He's 27. Jordan didnt win his first till 28. If bron finished his career with 4 rings, he will be top 5. I know its hard to comprehend the bold, but bron has many years left and he keeps getting better. Haters should just enjoy the ring excuse while it lasts(which wont be much longer)

Also, haters are missing out on some of the best most exciting basketball in a long time.

justinnum1
03-02-2012, 02:56 PM
clearly bron his benefiting from wade who making bron more efficient both guys are making noise but i think indy pacers are capable of upsetting any team in the east i view them as this version of lastyr grizzly team but this is the heat yr to win it all

Problem here is any team that relies on athleticism plays right into miamis game plan. Only two teams worry me, thats OKC and Bulls.

Htownballa1622
03-02-2012, 02:57 PM
Im glad he's playing so good. I want to see the excuse Lebron lovers have IF he doesn't win it all..

...and i'm sure the "Lebron lovers" would love to see the "Lebron Haters" responses IF he does win it all.

nickdymez
03-02-2012, 02:59 PM
...and i'm sure the "Lebron lovers" would love to see the "Lebron Haters" responses IF he does win it all.

My response will be "Its about damn time people who ride his balls so tough can finally say he is a champion."

Hawkeye15
03-02-2012, 03:00 PM
...and i'm sure the "Lebron lovers" would love to see the "Lebron Haters" responses IF he does win it all.

they will be prepared with something new, and even dumber, don't worry.

BigBlueCrew
03-02-2012, 03:01 PM
Lebron choked, whatever. He's 27. Jordan didnt win his first till 28. If bron finished his career with 4 rings, he will be top 5. I know its hard to comprehend the bold, but bron has many years left and he keeps getting better. Haters should just enjoy the ring excuse while it lasts(which wont be much longer)

Also, haters are missing out on some of the best most exciting basketball in a long time.

I love how every Lebron apologist mentions this. Jordan won his first 'ship when he was 27 and SEVEN years into then league. Lebron is NINE years into the league and into his SECOND team. Enuf with the excuses.

Jesse2272
03-02-2012, 03:02 PM
Lebron n wade 2gether just isnt fair

They r straight disgusting

I hate the heat, as a NYK fan, I luv watching Bron n Wade as an NBA fan...

Jesse2272
03-02-2012, 03:04 PM
they will be prepared with something new, and even dumber, don't worry.

Only a matter of time

no way that combo doesnt win a chip or 2 or 3 or 4 or 5...

thekmp211
03-02-2012, 03:05 PM
i told myself i wouldn't come into this thread...

..last night's game was a nice microcosm for his season as a whole. if he doesn't win mvp this year something's wrong. of COURSE... a page and a half in and we get the Jordan comps, LeChoke and all this other nonsense. As someone else said, enjoy your excuses now cause they won't be around for long. Can't imagine what he'll do wrong next.

Htownballa1622
03-02-2012, 03:06 PM
My response will be "Its about damn time people who ride his balls so tough can finally say he is a champion."

Ah i see cool. I'm glad you listed yourself in the "Lebron Haters" section.

But your response is fair, i suppose. I'm sure there will be much worse.

Jesse2272
03-02-2012, 03:08 PM
i told myself i wouldn't come into this thread...

..last night's game was a nice microcosm for his season as a whole. if he doesn't win mvp this year something's wrong. of COURSE... a page and a half in and we get the Jordan comps, LeChoke and all this other nonsense. As someone else said, enjoy your excuses now cause they won't be around for long. Can't imagine what he'll do wrong next.

for the record I love Lebron

I hate he shunned NYC

He is the best player in the NBA

He is not jordan

he cant do it alone

he will win a title, maybe not 5 or 6 or 7 or 8

Htownballa1622
03-02-2012, 03:09 PM
they will be prepared with something new, and even dumber, don't worry.

very true. That's why i would go for the Heat in the finals so they can get this ring out the way.

i only wish my team was relevant.

My Rockets are a first round bounce at best.

nickdymez
03-02-2012, 03:10 PM
Ah i see cool. I'm glad you listed yourself in the "Lebron Haters" section.

But your response is fair, i suppose. I'm sure there will be much worse.

lol. Of course. I dont like Lebron James at all. Im not enamored or in awe by him.
I watched Magic, Shaq, and Kobe play for my favorite team.

justinnum1
03-02-2012, 03:11 PM
...and i'm sure the "Lebron lovers" would love to see the "Lebron Haters" responses IF he does win it all.

I dont think there are any lebron lovers, hard to love the guy, but when he plays for your team, your gonna defend him, especially when he is unanimously considered the best player in the game. Only thing he doesnt have is a ring, when he gets it haters are gonna start crying, and bron will get the biggest monkey in all sports off his back. I will say this, after he wins his first, he will win a couple more.

I wasn't a lebron fan before he joined the heat. But im happy he's on my team. Just like knicks, bulls, nets fans all would have welcomed him in with open arms. I understand why the haters hate, they always hate the best and what they cant have.

Jesse2272
03-02-2012, 03:12 PM
Where does the all NYK fans are dumb come from, most idiotic posts I see are not from NYK

justinnum1
03-02-2012, 03:12 PM
I love how every Lebron apologist mentions this. Jordan won his first 'ship when he was 27 and SEVEN years into then league. Lebron is NINE years into the league and into his SECOND team. Enuf with the excuses.

:facepalm: Its not an excuse, ita a fact. He choked, im over it, looks like your not. If you dont think he will win rings your delusional, and holding onto the last glimmer of hope you haters have.

valade16
03-02-2012, 03:13 PM
This year has been good, but does anyone really think this year by LeBron is the best year an NBA player has played since '77-'78?

I sure don't. If anything this tells me to put less stock in Hollinger's PER if he's really willing to say this year was better than some of Jordan's...

BigBlueCrew
03-02-2012, 03:16 PM
:facepalm: Its not an excuse, ita a fact. He choked, im over it, looks like your not. If you dont think he will win rings your delusional, and holding onto the last glimmer of hope you haters have.

Im not hanging on to anything. You have to use time in the league, not age when comparing Jordan and Lebron. Lebron started when he was 19 and Jordan started when he was 21.

Why do you gotta be disingenuous for?

Htownballa1622
03-02-2012, 03:17 PM
I dont think there are any lebron lovers, hard to love the guy, but when he plays for your team, your gonna defend him, especially when he is unanimously considered the best player in the game. Only thing he doesnt have is a ring, when he gets it haters are gonna start crying, and bron will get the biggest monkey in all sports off his back. I will say this, after he wins his first, he will win a couple more.

I wasn't a lebron fan before he joined the heat. But im happy he's on my team. Just like knicks, bulls, nets fans all would have welcomed him in with open arms. I understand why the haters hate, they always hate the best and what they cant have.

I understand. Funny thing is. I've always enjoyed watching him. His "decision" had no effect on me. People take this man's actions too personal.

There's only one person i might hate on in the league and that's KG. but that's besides the point.

Anyway. watching Lebron play right now is crazy. I think it was Chuck that said watching Lebron play against players like Crash and Batum made them look like they were not athletic. He's absolutely dominating his opponents.

Htownballa1622
03-02-2012, 03:20 PM
lol. Of course. I dont like Lebron James at all. Im not enamored or in awe by him.
I watched Magic, Shaq, and Kobe play for my favorite team.

True. Those are a few of the GREATEST. To me, though, to hate on a guy or not be in awe of him because he's not on your team sucks for you i guess. you might not think so but you'll never fully appreciate what kind of great player he is just because you're a Laker fan.

nickdymez
03-02-2012, 03:20 PM
:facepalm: Its not an excuse, ita a fact. He choked, im over it, looks like your not. If you dont think he will win rings your delusional, and holding onto the last glimmer of hope you haters have.

If there were forums in the 80's and 90's there would have been people who said:
Karl Malone
John Stockton
Charles Barkley
Reggie Miller
Patrick Ewing

Were gonna win a ring

tredigs
03-02-2012, 03:21 PM
This year has been good, but does anyone really think this year by LeBron is the best year an NBA player has played since '77-'78?

I sure don't. If anything this tells me to put less stock in Hollinger's PER if he's really willing to say this year was better than some of Jordan's...

If he wins the ship and plays similar to this en route to it? Yes, it will be argued among the best all time... easily and rightly so.

Hollinger's entire article did not even mention his absurd defense this season. It's the best he's ever been, and I think he has a VERY strong case for both MVP and DPOY. If he can parlay that with Finals MVP to put the finishing (and most crucial) touch on one of the top 3 statistical seasons ever, then yeah. I can't fathom how someone would disagree.

But if he doesn't come up big and win the title, it will all be another "wasted" year as it relates to the GOATs until that happens.

When he came to Miami most people (including me) rightly gave them one season to learn their team and not have a big championship burden. But when they came so close and he got passive, the hate was justified. Now that every piece is in play and they have synergy with each other, there really is no excuses. It's championship or bust.

I have a feeling they beat OKC in the finals this year, and next season OKC truly becomes an equal force to challenge them. Which will in turn create one of the greatest championship rivalries in sports history. Could be a hoop dream, but I think it has legs.

nickdymez
03-02-2012, 03:21 PM
True. Those are a few of the GREATEST. To me, though, to hate on a guy or not be in awe of him because he's not on your team sucks for you i guess. you might not think so but you'll never fully appreciate what kind of great player he is just because you're a Laker fan.

No i dont care. I judge greatness by winning, not regular season stats. The people i named are great because they played great when it counted.

Da Knicks
03-02-2012, 03:24 PM
If anything, he should get MORE credit due to the lockout season. Typically, efficiency drops when you pack this many games into each week. His advanced numbers are literally insane this year. The biggest * at this point people will use is that his year depends mostly on winning a championship. While I don't buy into that 100%, its time to put up or shut up regarding LeBron.

Couldnt have said it any better Hawkeye, all eyes on Lebron and the heat again.:smoking:

TheNumber37
03-02-2012, 03:26 PM
needs to win a title...
a lot of great guys played amazing and didn't win it all solely because of Jordan... who exactly had been in LeBron's way.

thekmp211
03-02-2012, 03:26 PM
for the record I love Lebron

I hate he shunned NYC

He is the best player in the NBA

He is not jordan

he cant do it alone

he will win a title, maybe not 5 or 6 or 7 or 8

that's what i'm saying though. once he gets one, i'm sure we'll hear detractors asking why he hasn't won 2 yet. if he gets two, it'll be 3 and so forth and so on.

i actually kinda like kobe a lot now, but i used to despise him. still couldn't deny his on-court talent. kurt warner would be a cross-sport example for me personally. folks just get their opinions about lebron the personality and lebron the player mixed up too much.

Htownballa1622
03-02-2012, 03:27 PM
No i dont care. I judge greatness by winning, not regular season stats. The people i named are great because they played great when it counted.

True and i half understand. But if you judge on JUST winning then what would you say IF the Heat won this year while Lebron continued his high level play?

You would have to somehow appreciate that.

Trust me, I'm big on winning too. It pissed me off that Tmac and Yao together never won my team a series but i take into account their injuries and their play as a whole.

If a person judges only on winning then you're discrediting many great players like Stockton, Malone, Charles.

asandhu23
03-02-2012, 03:29 PM
If there were forums in the 80's and 90's there would have been people who said:
Karl Malone
John Stockton
Charles Barkley
Reggie Miller
Patrick Ewing

Were gonna win a ring

Indeed

Da Knicks
03-02-2012, 03:29 PM
If there were forums in the 80's and 90's there would have been people who said:
Karl Malone
John Stockton
Charles Barkley
Reggie Miller
Patrick Ewing

Were gonna win a ring

This is so true, Malone and Stockton i thought could of got 3 and boy i was wrong. Ewing was my boy and i defended him like the Lebron fans defend him, but at the end of the day you have to have the killer instinct. Lebron does not have it but Wade does so i still think they have a chance but not as clear cut as the miami fans would want you to believe.

Lets let the playoffs roll around and see if Lebron can do something then...:)

blystr2002
03-02-2012, 03:30 PM
Lebron might and should get a ring before he retires because he is a beast, but the way his fans act like he is a god is sick. The fact is he has choked and if he was as god-like as you hype him up to be he should already have 1 nine years in and should retire with multiple.

valade16
03-02-2012, 03:31 PM
If he wins the ship and plays similar to this en route to it? Yes, it will be argued among the best all time... easily and rightly so.

Hollinger's entire article did not even mention his absurd defense this season. It's the best he's ever been, and I think he has a VERY strong case for both MVP and DPOY. If he can parlay that with Finals MVP to put the finishing (and most crucial) touch on one of the top 3 statistical seasons ever, then yeah. I can't fathom how someone would disagree.

But if he doesn't come up big and win the title, it will all be another "wasted" year as it relates to the GOATs until that happens.

When he came to Miami most people (including me) rightly gave them one season to learn their team and not have a big championship burden. But when they came so close and he got passive, the hate was justified. Now that every piece is in play and they have synergy with each other, there really is no excuses. It's championship or bust.

I have a feeling they beat OKC in the finals this year, and next season OKC truly becomes an equal force to challenge them. Which will in turn create one of the greatest championship rivalries in sports history. Could be a hoop dream, but I think it has legs.

My question is: do you believe in your heart of hearts that LeBron right now is playing basketball better than anybody who has played it in the PER era ever at any point?

My follow on question is: if you think so, did you ever watch Jordan play?

I've seen LeBron he is playing amazing, but IMO it is not the best basketball that has ever been played...

BigBongTheory
03-02-2012, 03:32 PM
Oscar Robertson did average a triple-double his sophomore season in the NBA.

nickdymez
03-02-2012, 03:32 PM
True and i half understand. But if you judge on JUST winning then what would you say IF the Heat won this year while Lebron continued his high level play?

You would have to somehow appreciate that.

Trust me, I'm big on winning too. It pissed me off that Tmac and Yao together never won my team a series but i take into account their injuries and their play as a whole.

If a person judges only on winning then you're discrediting many great players like Stockton, Malone, Charles.

See thats thing with Lebron. A lot of his fans have already crowned him as the greatest player ever. So the bar is set sky high for him. Once he starts dominating an era, ala Jordan, Shaq, Kobe, Duncan, Magic, Bird, then i'll start being in awe and giving props. Until then he's Karl Malone putting up crazy numbers with no real hardware to show

asandhu23
03-02-2012, 03:33 PM
People thought McGrady was going to have rings. He had great stats as well.

tredigs
03-02-2012, 03:35 PM
True and i half understand. But if you judge on JUST winning then what would you say IF the Heat won this year while Lebron continued his high level play?

You would have to somehow appreciate that.

Trust me, I'm big on winning too. It pissed me off that Tmac and Yao together never won my team a series but i take into account their injuries and their play as a whole.

If a person judges only on winning then you're discrediting many great players like Stockton, Malone, Charles.

Very true, but Lebron has essentially already passed all of these guys in most peoples eyes. He's held on a different/crazy pedestal where it is championship or bust year after year, and that is why people will bash him if he does not win. There's no other player in the league who this is the case for. Hasn't been the case since Jordan in the late 80's. Personally this is the first season I myself think that SHOULD be the case, and I do think he warrants getting slammed for the weird passiveness during large stretches of the finals.

Don't let the "yeah great regular season STATS" thing that idiots try to push fool you though, this guy is playing some of the most elite two way basketball that has ever been played right now. As in LAST NIGHT. Watch last nights game and come up with 5 players who could have done what he did on both ends... guarding 7 players (and all positions) defensively and putting up a top 10 efficiency line in NBA history on the offensively. You couldn't.

iam brett favre
03-02-2012, 03:36 PM
And it won't matter unless he wins a title.

Htownballa1622
03-02-2012, 03:37 PM
See thats thing with Lebron. A lot of his fans have already crowned him as the greatest player ever. So the bar is set sky high for him. Once he starts dominating an era, ala Jordan, Shaq, Kobe, Duncan, Magic, Bird, then i'll start being in awe and giving props. Until then he's Karl Malone putting up crazy numbers with no real hardware to show

I guess. To each his own.

I'll just take it for what it is. He's playing GREAT and I feel for people to not give him credit because he hasn't won a ring is a bit premature. I think he should considering how they are playing right now.

With that being said, it's put up or shut up time. He was WAY TOO passive last June and he needs to show up.

He115ing
03-02-2012, 03:37 PM
I hate this obsession with numbers and statistics.

tredigs
03-02-2012, 03:39 PM
My question is: do you believe in your heart of hearts that LeBron right now is playing basketball better than anybody who has played it in the PER era ever at any point?

My follow on question is: if you think so, did you ever watch Jordan play?

I've seen LeBron he is playing amazing, but IMO it is not the best basketball that has ever been played...

He is playing regular season basketball as good as Jordan ever played, yes. His defense is as good as prime Pippen, his offense is as good as prime Bird, his size is on par with prime Malone, and his athleticism is on par with prime Jordan. What's not to get here?

But Jordan made his paycheck in the finals. Jury's still out on Lebron there, period.

I grew up watching Jordan and the late 80's/early 90's game.

Htownballa1622
03-02-2012, 03:39 PM
Very true, but Lebron has essentially already passed all of these guys in most peoples eyes. He's held on a different/crazy pedestal where it is championship or bust year after year, and that is why people will bash him if he does not win. There's no other player in the league who this is the case for. Hasn't been the case since Jordan in the late 80's. Personally this is the first season I myself think that SHOULD be the case, and I do think he warrants getting slammed for the weird passiveness during large stretches of the finals.

Don't let the "yeah great regular season STATS" thing that idiots try to push fool you though, this guy is playing some of the most elite two way basketball that has ever been played right now. As in LAST NIGHT. Watch last nights game and come up with 5 players who could have done what he did on both ends... guarding 7 players (and all positions) defensively and putting up a top 10 efficiency line in NBA history on the offensively. You couldn't.

Well said, and agreed.

beliges
03-02-2012, 03:41 PM
Very true, but Lebron has essentially already passed all of these guys in most peoples eyes. He's held on a different/crazy pedestal where it is championship or bust year after year, and that is why people will bash him if he does not win. There's no other player in the league who this is the case for. Hasn't been the case since Jordan in the late 80's. Personally this is the first season I myself think that SHOULD be the case, and I do think he warrants getting slammed for the weird passiveness during large stretches of the finals.

Don't let the "yeah great regular season STATS" thing that idiots try to push fool you though, this guy is playing some of the most elite two way basketball that has ever been played right now. As in LAST NIGHT. Watch last nights game and come up with 5 players who could have done what he did on both ends... guarding 7 players (and all positions) defensively and putting up a top 10 efficiency line in NBA history on the offensively. You couldn't.

Lebron is great, no doubt about that but there has been plenty of players that came before him who were great as well. Its difficult to put him ahead of guys like Malone at this point. Malone was great and maintained that greatness for a longer period of time than LBJ has done so yet. And yes, while regular season numbers are nice, they mean nothing without winning it all. The reason people have put the "championship or bust" mentality on LBJ is because he left a Cleavland team to join another superstar's team and create the most dynamic roster in the league. People used to say he didnt have the talent to win. Now he has the most talent in the league. So of course its championship or bust for him. Not to mention, all the things he said and all the championships he predicted he would win with this team also put that pressure on him. Regular season numbers will never hold that much weight when it comes to all time greatness. What Lebron needs to do to gain the respect of those that matter is win championships. Multiple championships. With this team, with this roster, anything less is a failure.

asandhu23
03-02-2012, 03:43 PM
Wilt had great stats. He wasn't able to shake off the loser label until he won rings.

LeBron is going through the same thing.

thekmp211
03-02-2012, 03:44 PM
He is playing regular season basketball as good as Jordan ever played, yes. His defense is as good as prime Pippen, his offense is as good as prime Bird, his size is on par with prime Malone, and his athleticism is on par with prime Jordan. What's not to get here?

But Jordan made his paycheck in the finals. Jury's still out on Lebron there, period.

I grew up watching Jordan and the late 80's/early 90's game.

x2 on this and your previous post.

TubbyBucket
03-02-2012, 03:49 PM
He is playing regular season basketball as good as Jordan ever played, yes. His defense is as good as prime Pippen, his offense is as good as prime Bird, his size is on par with prime Malone, and his athleticism is on par with prime Jordan. What's not to get here?

Mostly agree, but come on man.

http://www.goerieblogs.com/sports/giveandgo/wp-content/uploads/2009/05/flex23.jpg

http://www.thecrabdribble.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/01/Malone-Flexing-Update-597x398.jpg

tredigs
03-02-2012, 03:55 PM
Mostly agree, but come on man.

http://www.goerieblogs.com/sports/giveandgo/wp-content/uploads/2009/05/flex23.jpg

http://www.thecrabdribble.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/01/Malone-Flexing-Update-597x398.jpg

Malone had bigger guns, but they are essentially both the same size. 6-8 to 6-9 and 250-260 lbs. Lebron probably can generate more force between the two at that. Mass X Acceleration...

tredigs
03-02-2012, 03:57 PM
Now, if only he had Jordan's fire.

Sinestro
03-02-2012, 04:16 PM
He can dominate the regular season all he wants his greatness will be measured in June not February or March

da ThRONe
03-02-2012, 04:19 PM
None of that matters. LeBron was passive, and choked. You know I defend LeBron on this site left and right, but nobody should be defending him for his play in the finals. The Heat lost because LeBron didn't come even close to playing his normal game in that series.

LeBron didn't choke. You have to try in order to choke. James didn't even try after game 3.

tredigs
03-02-2012, 04:21 PM
Another stat worth mentioning that Hollinger did not (probably because it's not his) is his WinShares numbers. Which personally I think is the best way to narrow the best regular seasons ever. The top 20 WinShares/48 seasons:


Rank Player WS/48 Season Tm
1. Kareem Abdul-Jabbar* .3399 1971-72 MIL
2. Kareem Abdul-Jabbar* .3256 1970-71 MIL
3. Wilt Chamberlain* .3251 1963-64 SFW
4. Kareem Abdul-Jabbar* .3225 1972-73 MIL
5. Michael Jordan* .3211 1990-91 CHI
6. LeBron James .3183 2008-09 CLE
7. Michael Jordan* .3174 1995-96 CHI
8. Michael Jordan* .3077 1987-88 CHI
9. LeBron James .2987 2009-10 CLE
10. David Robinson* .2960 1993-94 SAS
11. Chris Paul .2925 2008-09 NOH
12. Michael Jordan* .2920 1988-89 CHI
13. David Robinson* .2903 1995-96 SAS
14. Wilt Chamberlain* .2857 1961-62 PHW
15. Michael Jordan* .2851 1989-90 CHI
16. Wilt Chamberlain* .2851 1966-67 PHI
17. Chris Paul .2840 2007-08 NOH
18. Kareem Abdul-Jabbar* .2835 1976-77 LAL
19. Shaquille O'Neal .2830 1999-00 LAL
20. Michael Jordan* .2829 1996-97 CHI


Came out all funky but you can figure it out.

Lebron's currently at .342. Which would be good for the #1 WinShare/48 season of all time... In a lockout year where percentages are down as a whole...

http://www.basketball-reference.com/leaders/ws_per_48_season.html

da ThRONe
03-02-2012, 04:22 PM
I don't understand the whole title arguement in a team sport.

Jordan won how many without Pippen?

tredigs
03-02-2012, 04:27 PM
I don't understand the whole title arguement in a team sport.

Jordan won how many without Pippen?

I'll keep it simple for you: How many top ten players of all time played alongside a top 5 and top 20 player in the league and did not win a title?

smith&wesson
03-02-2012, 04:29 PM
nice numbers. gotta give credit where its due.

justinnum1
03-02-2012, 04:37 PM
If the heat win the finals this year, then brons season will go down as a top 5 season of all time, especially if he wins regular season and finals mvp.

Personally i think he is closer than he has ever been considering the talent around him.

Redskins10
03-02-2012, 04:39 PM
When it's all said and done, Lebron will be known as the GOAT..

JordansBulls
03-02-2012, 04:41 PM
This is what I mean. The average fan thinks only a title vindicates a player and his numbers.

It's not that it is because he lost 3 years in a row as the favorite. And you can say what you want about if Cleveland was to win it all or not, the fact of the matter they lost to teams they were supposed to have beaten. Not to mention the first year when LA won most of the contenders had a star out, Boston with KG out, Spurs with Manu out, Rockets with Mcgrady out and then Yao out, Orlando without Jameer, etc.

KB-Pau-DH2012
03-02-2012, 04:42 PM
Can't blame LeBron for the Heat going like 17 minutes w/o a FT in Game 2 - at home, with 2 other guys that reach the FT line over 6 times a game before they joined up - while Dallas was parading to the line. In a game that was lost by 2 points. That would have put the Heat up 3-0 in the series. Alas, this is a league where sketchy officiating plays a big factor in the outcome.

Bad performance aside, the Heat win the championship and everything else is moot.

Wasn't Dwyane Wade parading to the line starting in game 3 of the 2006 NBA Finals?

And why not bring up LeBron's no show in the 4th qtrs of the NBA Finals?


Seems like you're indicating that the refs didn't help the Heat in 2011 to the level they helped them in 2006? If they had, then the Heat would have won in 2011 as well?

JordansBulls
03-02-2012, 04:43 PM
When it's all said and done, Lebron will be known as the GOAT..

Umm no, not when you lost 3 years in a row with HCA.

KB-Pau-DH2012
03-02-2012, 04:49 PM
clearly bron his benefiting from wade who making bron more efficient both guys are making noise but i think indy pacers are capable of upsetting any team in the east i view them as this version of lastyr grizzly team but this is the heat yr to win it all

Not really, LeBron was putting up crazy numbers when Dwyane 'Glass' Wade was out injured.

Teeboy1487
03-02-2012, 04:52 PM
Lebron is having a great season but he has to win championships. We have seen all of this from him before. Lebron is in his prime. It's only nature he is playing the best basketball of his career. However, it has to lead to championships. Lebron already is the greatest SF of all time imo but he still has to win.

sammid21
03-02-2012, 04:54 PM
IMO, when a player plays with 2 other franchise players that require a double team, obviously Lebron will have one of the greatest seasons ever. Less pressure on him and of coarse he will be more efficient. But I will be called a hater so whatever its just my opinion

Teeboy1487
03-02-2012, 04:55 PM
If the heat win the finals this year, then brons season will go down as a top 5 season of all time, especially if he wins regular season and finals mvp.

Personally i think he is closer than he has ever been considering the talent around him.

He is. I will be very shocked if they don't win it this year. The Heat are simply monsters on the court. I have never feared a team like them this much in my lifetime.

Bigbadmoffo
03-02-2012, 04:57 PM
We all know Lebron is great at putting up the best numbers but at the end of the day i would still take Jordan over him in a heart beat to win me a championship.

JordansBulls
03-02-2012, 04:59 PM
If the heat win the finals this year, then brons season will go down as a top 5 season of all time, especially if he wins regular season and finals mvp.

Personally i think he is closer than he has ever been considering the talent around him.

Well he would need to get both season and finals mvp and put up godly numbers in the playoffs as well. For instance, MJ had over a 31.5 PER in the season, playoffs and finals in 1991 (and was literally the only player who made the allstar team on his team that season and only one to be on ALL NBA Team). Shaq also had over a 30+ PER in the season, playoffs and Finals in 2000, also Kareem in 1971 was pretty great as well and each of the 3 of them did something that hadn't been done and that is lead the league in scoring as well and win the title. Also you would have to consider Hakeem's 1994 season when he won league and finals mvp and DPOY or maybe Duncan's 2003 season where he won league and finals mvp as well with no one else on the team to make the allstar team, then you got Magic's 1987 season and Bird's 1986 Season. I would say Lebron's is more like Magic's or Bird's considering the amount of allstars that season on the team and finals mvp winners already.

bluefire7002
03-02-2012, 05:01 PM
When it's all said and done, Lebron will be known as the GOAT..

EKKK... normally I dont bother posting and just like reading peoples opinions, but really had to post for this one.

This whole Lebron being GOAT will never become true anymore and thats just the honest truth. the guy has failed in the finals twice and in the last 3 years of the playoffs HORRIBLY. He will have these awesome stretches during the regular season (and I will admit) but comes playoffs he will have a good series, maybe 2... than just completely let his team down, which im sure screws with the team because they were used to a whole different Lebron during the season and their looking to give him the ball.

All honesty no matter what he does in the next 5 years it wont top MJ or even Kobe for that matter and you guys are in denial if you think otherwise.
UNLESS he wins 5-6 rings in a row and MVP in them (wanna make bets?)

As for greatest season ever... this whole PER% is pretty annoying to me in all honesty, and didin't Robertson average a triple double a whole year? that's pretty hard to top... if your a stats guy and all.

valade16
03-02-2012, 05:02 PM
He is playing regular season basketball as good as Jordan ever played, yes. His defense is as good as prime Pippen, his offense is as good as prime Bird, his size is on par with prime Malone, and his athleticism is on par with prime Jordan. What's not to get here?

But Jordan made his paycheck in the finals. Jury's still out on Lebron there, period.

I grew up watching Jordan and the late 80's/early 90's game.

If were talking regular season basketball I don't see how this is as good or better than some of Jordan's 80's seasons.

LeBron:

27.7 PPG, 8.2 RPG, 6.8 APG, 1.9 SPG, .7 BPG, 3.6 TOs, .549 FG, .431 3-PT, .776 FT

Jordan in 88-89:

32.5 PPG, 8.0 RPG, 8.0 APG, 2.9 SPG, .8 BPG, 3.6 TOs, .538 FG, .276 3-PT, .850 FT.

That is 4.8 more PPG, 1.2 more APG, 1.0 more SPG. Heck, Jordan even averaged more Blocks Per game than James!

And the 3-PT shooting looks bad but he only took 1.2 a game, so it's not like he was chucking them up all the time.

Statistically that is a better year than Bron's. Heck, 87-88 and 89-90 were probably better, and even though his FG% had dropped in the 90's many of those years were arguably better regular season stats.

All you did was point out how physically much of a freak he is, but Jordan was hands down better offensively and as a one on one defender Jordan was every bit as good for his size.

I'm sorry, I just don't see LeBron this year as having played every bit as good as Jordan in his prime...

bluefire7002
03-02-2012, 05:04 PM
IMO, when a player plays with 2 other franchise players that require a double team, obviously Lebron will have one of the greatest seasons ever. Less pressure on him and of coarse he will be more efficient. But I will be called a hater so whatever its just my opinion

EXACTLY!
my buddy is a HUGE Miami fan and was telling me the other day how Lebron and Wades shooting % is ridiculous... well yea... When you have 3 superstars on the same team, they are going to draw double teams and now that they have played a whole season together I'm sure they get a feel for each other and where on the floor they are going to get good open looks.

JordansBulls
03-02-2012, 05:06 PM
If were talking regular season basketball I don't see how this is as good or better than some of Jordan's 80's seasons.

LeBron:

27.7 PPG, 8.2 RPG, 6.8 APG, 1.9 SPG, .7 BPG, 3.6 TOs, .549 FG, .431 3-PT, .776 FT

Jordan in 88-89:

32.5 PPG, 8.0 RPG, 8.0 APG, 2.9 SPG, .8 BPG, 3.6 TOs, .538 FG, .276 3-PT, .850 FT.

That is 4.8 more PPG, 1.2 more APG, 1.0 more SPG. Heck, Jordan even averaged more Blocks Per game than James!

And the 3-PT shooting looks bad but he only took 1.2 a game, so it's not like he was chucking them up all the time.

Statistically that is a better year than Bron's. Heck, 87-88 and 89-90 were probably better, and even though his FG% had dropped in the 90's many of those years were arguably better regular season stats.

All you did was point out how physically much of a freak he is, but Jordan was hands down better offensively and as a one on one defender Jordan was every bit as good for his size.

I'm sorry, I just don't see LeBron this year as having played every bit as good as Jordan in his prime...

PER measures how good the rest of the league is. MJ had guys like Magic, Bird, Hakeem, Robinson, Ewing, Barkley, Malone who were in there primes when he played putting up great numbers. Lebron has some good guys as well in the league, but many of them have missed time as well which will only help Lebron's PER since more scrubs or 2nd tier guys would get time while other guys are out. For instance with guys like Wade, Dirk, Rose, CP3 missing time or playing a few minutes and out the rest of the game that helps Lebron's PER.

justinnum1
03-02-2012, 05:06 PM
EKKK... normally I dont bother posting and just like reading peoples opinions, but really had to post for this one.

This whole Lebron being GOAT will never become true anymore and thats just the honest truth. the guy has failed in the finals twice and in the last 3 years of the playoffs HORRIBLY. He will have these awesome stretches during the regular season (and I will admit) but comes playoffs he will have a good series, maybe 2... than just completely let his team down, which im sure screws with the team because they were used to a whole different Lebron during the season and their looking to give him the ball.

All honesty no matter what he does in the next 5 years it wont top MJ or even Kobe for that matter and you guys are in denial if you think otherwise.
UNLESS he wins 5-6 rings in a row and MVP in them (wanna make bets?)

As for greatest season ever... this whole PER% is pretty annoying to me in all honesty, and didin't Robertson average a triple double a whole year? that's pretty hard to top... if your a stats guy and all.

reality is the youngins right now might consider lebron the goat in 10 years if he starts winning rings...there are people in there teens and 20's right now that dont even really know about what happened in the 80's and 90's

Jordan will be the GOAT in my eyes, but perception changes over time .

beliges
03-02-2012, 05:07 PM
Greatest season would be winning MVP, and winning Finals MVP on top of all the individual numbers and success. The fact that Durant is the clear front runner for the MVP right now should tell you that this question is a bit silly. The Heat, as stacked as they are and as great as theyre playing have not played better than the Thunder so far this season.

justinnum1
03-02-2012, 05:09 PM
Greatest season would be winning MVP, and winning Finals MVP on top of all the individual numbers and success. The fact that Durant is the clear front runner for the MVP right now should tell you that this question is a bit silly. The Heat, as stacked as they are and as great as theyre playing have not played better than the Thunder so far this season.

:laugh: Nice try there.

Kd is having a nice season, but he is def behind lebron in the MVP race.

last stand
03-02-2012, 05:32 PM
No. Hollinger is an idiot. His per rating is about as convoluted a statistic as QBR.

Let's just look at recent history

Shaquille o'neal 1999-2000
30ppg 14rpg 4apg 3bpg shooting 57% and won the championship

Lebrons season doesn't touch or even sniff that season

Or look back in time.

Hakeem Olajuwon 1989-1990
24ppg 14rpg 3apg 2spg 5bpg shooting 50%

Karl Malone
31ppg 11rpg 3apg shooting 56%

Now more recently
Kobe Bryant 2005-2006
35ppg 5rpg 5apg 2spg shooting 45% and 35% from 3

Tim Duncan 2001-2002
26ppg 13rpg 4apg 3bpg shooting 51%

David Robinson 1993-1994
30ppg 11rpg 5apg 2spg 3bpg shooting 51%

I'm gonna exclude Michael, wilt, and Kareem to be fair to Lebron

I'd take those seasons over lebrons this season. Having said that I'd put his season right behind these

bluefire7002
03-02-2012, 05:32 PM
reality is the youngins right now might consider lebron the goat in 10 years if he starts winning rings...there are people in there teens and 20's right now that dont even really know about what happened in the 80's and 90's

Jordan will be the GOAT in my eyes, but perception changes over time .

I have noticed people who really just started watching the NBA in the last 2-4 years are the ones who see Lebron as the NBA god... and its like.. why?? I'm only 23, but I have been watching the NBA for a good 10 yrs now. And not just counting this season but, I get tired of reading post saying Lebron is in the top 10 already of all-time... its just like... really!???
I'm not a Lebron or Heat player for that matter (Wade is one of my fave players) but we can't just start saying this player or this team is the greatest ever just because people want to see it.

naps
03-02-2012, 05:33 PM
Greatest season would be winning MVP, and winning Finals MVP on top of all the individual numbers and success. The fact that Durant is the clear front runner for the MVP right now should tell you that this question is a bit silly. The Heat, as stacked as they are and as great as theyre playing have not played better than the Thunder so far this season.

Troll really wishes he could say kobe was mvp :laugh2:

justinnum1
03-02-2012, 05:35 PM
Troll really wishes he could say kobe was mvp :laugh2:

:laugh2:

Birdmannn
03-02-2012, 05:37 PM
Greatest season would be winning MVP, and winning Finals MVP on top of all the individual numbers and success. The fact that Durant is the clear front runner for the MVP right now should tell you that this question is a bit silly. The Heat, as stacked as they are and as great as theyre playing have not played better than the Thunder so far this season.

Your being biased and your wrong.

valade16
03-02-2012, 05:38 PM
:laugh: Nice try there.

Kd is having a nice season, but he is def behind lebron in the MVP race.

Not only is LeBron the front runner it's not even close. Durant is having a great year but LeBron has already won this year's MVP.

da ThRONe
03-02-2012, 05:38 PM
I'll keep it simple for you: How many top ten players of all time played alongside a top 5 and top 20 player in the league and did not win a title?

He has only had Wade one year and sorry Bosh isn't top 20 close enough for your point just clearing that up. The rest of the team is not very good and pretty much it's all James/Wade and occassionally Bosh. Their 1st year together they made it to the Finals and would have won it all if LeBron hadn't check out mentally. Either way it's a team sport. You shouldn't ignore greatness simply because it doesn't always equal titles. LeBron has had a ton of post season success that always gets looked over by his haters.

Birdmannn
03-02-2012, 05:39 PM
No. Hollinger is an idiot. His per rating is about as convoluted a statistic as QBR.

Let's just look at recent history

Shaquille o'neal 1999-2000
30ppg 14rpg 4apg 3bpg shooting 57% and won the championship

Lebrons season doesn't touch or even sniff that season

Or look back in time.

Hakeem Olajuwon 1989-1990
24ppg 14rpg 3apg 2spg 5bpg shooting 50%

Karl Malone
31ppg 11rpg 3apg shooting 56%

Now more recently
Kobe Bryant 2005-2006
35ppg 5rpg 5apg 2spg shooting 45% and 35% from 3

Tim Duncan 2001-2002
26ppg 13rpg 4apg 3bpg shooting 51%

David Robinson 1993-1994
30ppg 11rpg 5apg 2spg 3bpg shooting 51%

I'm gonna exclude Michael, wilt, and Kareem to be fair to Lebron

I'd take those seasons over lebrons this season. Having said that I'd put his season right behind these

Your comparing to all power forwards and centers besides Kobe who really just shot average and had a terrible team.

Birdmannn
03-02-2012, 05:42 PM
He has only had Wade one year and sorry Bosh isn't top 20 close enough for your point just clearing that up. The rest of the team is not very good and pretty much it's all James/Wade and occassionally Bosh. Their 1st year together they made it to the Finals and would have won it all if LeBron hadn't check out mentally. Either way it's a team sport. You shouldn't ignore greatness simply because it doesn't always equal titles. LeBron has had a ton of post season success that always gets looked over by his haters.

Bosh is putting up 18 plus points and 8 plus rebounds as a third option. We all saw his stats as the number 1 option. To get to my point he is a top 5 pf so pretty damn close or right around top 20.

LOOTERX9
03-02-2012, 05:45 PM
Not only is LeBron the front runner it's not even close. Durant is having a great year but LeBron has already won this year's MVP.


So, lebron always have great regular seasons. but crunch time in playoffs he always shrinks and mentally checks out. So no I would not give lebron anymore M.V.P's cause it's becoming embarrassing for the leagues MVP to constantly choke every playoffs

valade16
03-02-2012, 05:47 PM
Your comparing to all power forwards and centers besides Kobe who really just shot average and had a terrible team.

So? Hollinger said this could be the greatest year of basketball ever played. You can't exclude players when someone makes a statement so bold.

I can say I partially agree with the person you quoted, Shaq's first Champ. year was arguably (and probably) better, Hakeem had a couple years that could be considered.

People act like LeBron James is Godly or has re-invented basketball. He is an insanely good player but let's stop talking about how he is leaving all other players in the dust.

ManRam
03-02-2012, 05:53 PM
No.

But top 5, easily. Statistically what he's doing is almost unfathomable in today's NBA...

I'm sure the stats have been said already, so I'll spare them. But top 2 in PER and WS/48 all time in a single season? That's amazing.


And if you think Kobe's 2005-2006 season was better, well, you're flat out wrong. That's not opinion either...

Eagles710
03-02-2012, 05:58 PM
Listen Truth is i HATE lebron, but bottom line he is an absolute maniac , he can average a Triple double if he wanted to.... he can get to the Paint whenever he wants, IMO he will be the GOAT .... 6'8 260, built like a house, and can play all 5 positions , Best player in the nba now by far... and when he wins a couple rings he will be the GOAT imo

bluefire7002
03-02-2012, 05:59 PM
So? Hollinger said this could be the greatest year of basketball ever played. You can't exclude players when someone makes a statement so bold.

I can say I partially agree with the person you quoted, Shaq's first Champ. year was arguably (and probably) better, Hakeem had a couple years that could be considered.

People act like LeBron James is Godly or has re-invented basketball. He is an insanely good player but let's stop talking about how he is leaving all other players in the dust.

Hollinger should also have been fired long ago :cool:


No.

But top 5, easily. Statistically what he's doing is almost unfathomable in today's NBA...

I'm sure the stats have been said already, so I'll spare them. But top 2 in PER and WS/48 all time in a single season? That's amazing.


And if you think Kobe's 2005-2006 season was better, well, you're flat out wrong. That's not opinion either...

And Considering Kobe put these numbers up with no other All-star on his team... and oh yea Smush Parker as starting PG While still shooting mid range jumpers at 45%... Yea it was better.

justinnum1
03-02-2012, 06:00 PM
IMO, when a player plays with 2 other franchise players that require a double team, obviously Lebron will have one of the greatest seasons ever. Less pressure on him and of coarse he will be more efficient. But I will be called a hater so whatever its just my opinion

Westbrick is a franchise player, and harden is a top 25 player(top 5SG)...i rarely ever see durant getting doubled:shrug:

JordansBulls
03-02-2012, 06:05 PM
He has only had Wade one year and sorry Bosh isn't top 20 close enough for your point just clearing that up. The rest of the team is not very good and pretty much it's all James/Wade and occassionally Bosh. Their 1st year together they made it to the Finals and would have won it all if LeBron hadn't check out mentally. Either way it's a team sport. You shouldn't ignore greatness simply because it doesn't always equal titles. LeBron has had a ton of post season success that always gets looked over by his haters.


Miami's Big 3 in the NBA Finals in 2011

Wade
26.5 PPG / 7.0 RPG / 5.2 APG / 1.5 SPG / 1.5 BPG / 2.5 TPG / 54.6% FG / 30.4% 3 PT FG / 69.4% FT


Bosh
18.5 PPG / 7.3 RPG / 1.0 APG / 0.33 SPG / 0.50 BPG / 2.17 TPG / 41.3% FG / 0.00% 3 PT FG / 77.8% FT


Lebron
17.8 PPG / 7.2 RPG / 6.8 APG / 1.67 SPG / 0.50 BPG / 4.0 TPG / 47.8% FG / 32.1% 3 PT FG / 60.0% FT




Miami's Big 3 in the ECF in 2011



Wade
18.8 PPG / 6.4 RPG / 2.2 APG / 1.60 SPG / 1.20 BPG / 4.00 TPG / 40.5% FG / 20.0% 3 PT FG / 82.9% FT

Lebron
25.8 PPG / 7.8 RPG / 6.6 APG / 2.40 SPG / 1.8 BPG / 3.6 TPG / 44.7% FG / 38.9% 3 PT FG / 86.4% FT

Bosh
23.2 PPG / 7.6 RPG / 1.2 APG / 0.60 SPG / 1.0 BPG / 2.0 TPG / 60.0% FG / 0.00% 3 PT FG / 91.4% FT


So Bosh averages 23 and 8 on 60% in the ECF and then outscores Lebron in the finals and he isn't a top 20 player???:facepalm:

ManRam
03-02-2012, 06:10 PM
Hollinger should also have been fired long ago :cool:



And Considering Kobe put these numbers up with no other All-star on his team... and oh yea Smush Parker as starting PG... Yea it was better.

But it just wasn't. He was incredibly inefficient.

If all you care about are counting stats, and mainly PPG game, than sure. But that's such a infantile way to judge something.

People seem to only hate Hollinger when his stuff doesn't support what they WANT to believe. Hollinger isn't science, but it's much closer to it than most have every gotten. It's kind of like just ignoring science because you don't want to believe what science says...and that's foolish.

Hell, LeBron has had better season than that 2005-2006 season in Cleveland, and in Cleveland he had some garbage playing along side him too...

To get those 35.4 points a game he had to shoot it a whopping 27.2 times a game.

LeBron is shooting the ball 18.2 times a game this year, and is scoring 27.7 points a game. Give him 9 more shots a game to get to Kobe's 27.2, and he's topping 40.

LeBron is having the far better rebounding, passing, defending, and everything else season. He scored at a more effienct rate. Literally the only thing Kobe did more is score more points per game.

LeBron: FG% - 55% eFG% - 57% TS% 62.6%
Kobe: FG% - 45% eFG% - 49% TS% 46%

Kobe's getting waxed there. Throw in 2.7 more assists per 36, 3.3 more rebounds per 36 for LeBron, and a drastically better DRtg and ORtg.

Kobe wins the TO battle :shrug:

Most telling:

Kobe had .228 WS/48 that season
LeBron has a whopping .342 WS/48

Discount the stats all you want, but the disparity here is too huge to chalk it off as "Kobe didn't have anyone around him".

No one has really EVER had this good of a season ever, regardless of the amount of help they've had around them. There have been star players with better supporting casts that couldn't even sniff this. Kobe with the best cast he ever had never had a season 1/2 as amazing as this...so that also throws a HUGE wrench into you argument. If he had seasons like this when he had a ton of help around him (basically how you're discrediting LeBron and crediting Kobe) then you might have an argument.



Seriously, how can knock what he's doing when no player besides Kareem really has ever put up these numbers before? Jordan had some great teams. Kobe had some great teams. Larry had some great teams. Magic had some great teams. Etc...but none of them ever have done what LeBron is doing this year :shrug: It's such flawed logic it's hilarious.

justinnum1
03-02-2012, 06:14 PM
But it just wasn't. He was incredibly inefficient.

If all you care about are counting stats, and mainly PPG game, than sure. But that's such a infantile way to judge something.

People seem to only hate Hollinger when his stuff doesn't support what they WANT to believe. Hollinger isn't science, but it's much closer to it than most have every gotten. It's kind of like just ignoring science because you don't want to believe what science says...and that's foolish.

Hell, LeBron has had better season than that 2005-2006 season in Cleveland, and in Cleveland he had some garbage playing along side him too...

To get those 35.4 points a game he had to shoot it a whopping 27.2 times a game.

LeBron is shooting the ball 18.2 times a game this year, and is scoring 27.7 points a game. Give him 9 more shots a game to get to Kobe's 27.2, and he's topping 40.

LeBron is having the far better rebounding, passing, defending, and everything else season. He scored at a more effienct rate. Literally the only thing Kobe did more is score more points per game.

LeBron: FG% - 55% eFG% - 57% TS% 62.6%
Kobe: FG% - 45% eFG% - 49% TS% 46%

Kobe's getting waxed there. Through in 2.7 more assists per 36, 3.3 more rebounds per 36, a drastically better DRtg and ORtg.

Most telling:

Kobe had .228 WS/48 that season
LeBron has a whopping .342 WS/48

Discount the stats all you want, but the disparity here is too huge to chalk it off as "Kobe didn't have anyone around him".

No one has really EVER had this good of a season ever, regardless of the amount of help they've had around them. There have been star players with better supporting casts that couldn't even sniff this. Kobe with the best cast he ever had never had a season 1/2 as amazing as this...so that also throws a HUGE wrench into you argument. If he had seasons like this when he had a ton of help around him (basically how you're discrediting LeBron and crediting Kobe) then you might have an argument.



Seriously, how can knock what he's doing when no player besides Kareem really has ever put up these numbers before? Jordan had some great teams. Kobe had some great teams. Larry had some great teams. Magic had some great teams. Etc...but none of them ever have done what LeBron is doing this year :shrug: It's such flawed logic it's hilarious.

Excellent excellent post. His efficiency so far this season is incredible.

last stand
03-02-2012, 06:20 PM
Your comparing to all power forwards and centers besides Kobe who really just shot average and had a terrible team.

Last time I checked the thread wasn't Lebron if having the best season ever for a wing player

Those players all had better statistical seasons

Lim
03-02-2012, 06:20 PM
No i dont care. I judge greatness by winning, not regular season stats. The people i named are great because they played great when it counted.

you should only judge greatness by winning in a sport like golf or tennis.

otherwise by your definition the players you mentioned are not great.

Karl Malone
John Stockton
Charles Barkley
Reggie Miller
Patrick Ewing

these players are all great. lebron james career playoff stats are better than every single one of them. yet to you he is not great because you are blinded by hate. if lebron wins a ring you will be one of the ppl who will say "meh he only won cause of d wade, he cant do it alone."

last stand
03-02-2012, 06:23 PM
No.

But top 5, easily. Statistically what he's doing is almost unfathomable in today's NBA...

I'm sure the stats have been said already, so I'll spare them. But top 2 in PER and WS/48 all time in a single season? That's amazing.


And if you think Kobe's 2005-2006 season was better, well, you're flat out wrong. That's not opinion either...

I think you need to look up the definition of opinion vs fact

ManRam
03-02-2012, 06:26 PM
Last time I checked the thread wasn't Lebron if having the best season ever for a wing player

Those players all had better statistical seasons

You have to take position into account though. Shaq shooting 57% isn't better than LeBron shooting 55%, and so on.

I don't think, honestly, any of those guys you listed had better seasons...but then again, I care about advanced stats more than the simple counting/per game stats.

That one Jordan season (not sure it was you or someone else) probably...no way to Shaq's, Malone's, Duncan's or Robinson...or anyone else you listed.

Hakeem had a few seasons that rival LeBron's. Jordan has a few as well. That's it.


Actually, I'm not going to bother, it's clear you value things that I don't much more than I value them, and vis-versa.

Explain to me how Hollinger is an idiot...with some objective and thought-out-reasoning...not just "I think he's an idiot because what his stats tell me is not what I want to believe".

naps
03-02-2012, 06:29 PM
So, lebron always have great regular seasons. but crunch time in playoffs he always shrinks and mentally checks out. So no I would not give lebron anymore M.V.P's cause it's becoming embarrassing for the leagues MVP to constantly choke every playoffs

Since when regular season mvp depends on playoffs?? What a tool :facepalm: And LeBron disappeared in last years finals..beside that LeBron has been one of thr greatest playoffs performers of all time. Only if he played with a prime Shaq for 8 years he would already be the GOAT.

ManRam
03-02-2012, 06:29 PM
I think you need to look up the definition of opinion vs fact

No.

The only argument I have so far as to why that season of Kobe's was better is that he scored more PPG and he didn't have help around him. I explained why both matter little: he had to take an unhealthy amount of shots to get that PPG, and he never put up better numbers with more help around him himself, so how does that favor Kobe at all? I don't think it does. You say LeBron simply is having a good season because he has two all-stars playing with him, but then, why didn't Kobe ever have better seasons when he had two all-stars playing with him? Makes no sense.

I mean, you can tell me why I'm wrong, but until then I'm not seeing other opinions that dispute what I said...

valade16
03-02-2012, 06:32 PM
No one has really EVER had this good of a season ever, regardless of the amount of help they've had around them. There have been star players with better supporting casts that couldn't even sniff this. Kobe with the best cast he ever had never had a season 1/2 as amazing as this...so that also throws a HUGE wrench into you argument. If he had seasons like this when he had a ton of help around him (basically how you're discrediting LeBron and crediting Kobe) then you might have an argument.

Seriously, how can knock what he's doing when no player besides Kareem really has ever put up these numbers before? Jordan had some great teams. Kobe had some great teams. Larry had some great teams. Magic had some great teams. Etc...but none of them ever have done what LeBron is doing this year :shrug: It's such flawed logic it's hilarious.

...And opinion invalidated.

How can you seriously say that?

Jordan averaged 32.5 PPG, 8 RPG, 8 APG, 2.9 SPG, .8 BPG on .538 FG and .850 FT.

That is every bit as good as Bron this year and in fact better. Jordan has had season's LeBron is having, and he had them with regularity.

All your post told me was you don't study/care about the history of the game and what others have done nor did you apparently watch Jordan play.

I can't believe someone could make such an asinine statement like No One has ever had a season like this.

Your naivete is cute...

ManRam
03-02-2012, 06:33 PM
...And opinion invalidated.

How can you seriously say that?

Jordan averaged 32.5 PPG, 8 RPG, 8 APG, 2.9 SPG, .8 BPG on .538 FG and .850 FT.

That is every bit as good as Bron this year and in fact better. Jordan has had season's LeBron is having, and he had them with regularity.

All your post told me was you don't study/care about the history of the game and what others have done nor did you apparently watch Jordan play.

I can't believe someone could make such an asinine statement like No One has ever had a season like this.

Your naivete is cute...

OK. I contradicted that in my post. I don't mean that really...I said Jordan and Kareem did later. That was a mistake. Keep reading though.

Even so, LeBron has been slightly more efficient this season. Per 36 minutes (MJ logged more minutes), the stats become nearly identical. LeBron leads in rebounding, trails by less than 1 in assists...but scoring more efficiently, and again, resulting in significantly more win shares per game...

Nick O
03-02-2012, 06:35 PM
i dunno.. i just looked. whoever this Wilt Chamberlain fellow was had some pretty fantastic seasons

valade16
03-02-2012, 06:36 PM
Actually, I'm not going to bother, it's clear you value things that I don't much more than I value them, and vis-versa.

Explain to me how Hollinger is an idiot...with some objective and thought-out-reasoning...not just "I think he's an idiot because what his stats tell me is not what I want to believe".

OK, how about his stats told him Denver would be good this year? :eyebrow:

Does that make him an idiot? No.

Is he some infallible purveyor of NBA truth that you seem to think he is? Absolutely not.

Hollinger's PER is not the definitive measure on who had a better season...

LOOTERX9
03-02-2012, 06:36 PM
Since when regular season mvp depends on playoffs?? What a tool :facepalm: And LeBron disappeared in last years finals..beside that LeBron has been one of thr greatest playoffs performers of all time. Only if he played a prime Shaq for 8 years he would already be the GOAT.


Correct Lebron vanished in last years Finals. Nuff said

But there's more, He also vanished year before in playoffs against Boston. What was that about:confused:

And before those 2 embarrassments Lebron Has failed miserably even when his team was favorite to get to the finals by having best record all season. He fails against orlando.

Year before that failure he fails against Boston in a game 7 where he passed up game tying 3 pointer.

Lbj is a classic front runner, nothing else

KB-Pau-DH2012
03-02-2012, 06:38 PM
Since when regular season mvp depends on playoffs?? What a tool :facepalm: And LeBron disappeared in last years finals..beside that LeBron has been one of thr greatest playoffs performers of all time. Only if he played with a prime Shaq for 8 years he would already be the GOAT.

LeBron disappeared in last years finals...beside that ????


You're just shoving the NBA Finals aside like it's NOTHING.

And saying he "disappeared" is vastly understating how he really played.

ManRam
03-02-2012, 06:39 PM
OK, how about his stats told him Denver would be good this year? :eyebrow:

Does that make him an idiot? No.

Is he some infallible purveyor of NBA truth that you seem to think he is? Absolutely not.

Hollinger's PER is not the definitive measure on who had a better season...

Denver was great...until their best player got hurt. Did you not watch the first 6-7 weeks of the season.

Oh no, he got one thing wrong!!! Ah...way to tear down his stats.

Not that those stats even have anything to do with the ones he uses to evaluate individuls...

No one here is saying PER is definitive measure. Find me one post where someone said "so-and-so had a better PER therefore he's better" and said nothing else. Stats paint a picture, no one stat tells it all. You need to use a lot of them to get the best picture. Hollinger HIMSELF would be the first to tell you that.

Tell me how PER is flawed, statistically...with the numbers and stuff. It is indeed flawed, but I'm not sure you know why it is. You just don't like it, again, because it doesn't always say what you want it to.

ManRam
03-02-2012, 06:40 PM
LeBron disappeared in last years finals...beside that ????


You're just shoving the NBA Finals aside like it's NOTHING.

And saying he "disappeared" is vastly understating how he really played.

This thread has nothing to do with last year...so not sure how it's relevant to the discussion at hand.

Hey, at least he got to the Finals :shrug: Did you're favorite player? Nope...

MakaSizzle
03-02-2012, 06:41 PM
Ok look....

Take a look at Lebron's Stats from this year to his career averages. VERY VERY similar. The only big differnce which can attest to his high eff. rating is that he's quit jacking up threes!!!

He is taking 2 less 3's per game and shooting 2 less shots per game.
Basically on average he is making the same amount of field goals per game he's just not jacking up threes.

Good numbers but is it best ever NO!!!

KB-Pau-DH2012
03-02-2012, 06:43 PM
This thread has nothing to do with last year...so not sure how it's relevant to the discussion at hand.

Hey, at least he got to the Finals :shrug: Did you're favorite player? Nope...

My favorite player made it to the three previous ones? :p

But I like how you're able to defend LeBron and back it up but guys like NAPS don't really bring up anything of significance to get their point across or back it up.


I already know LeBron is the true MVP and best player in the NBA. I was just trying to question NAPS on his understatement of how crappy LeBron played in the finals last yr.

ManRam
03-02-2012, 06:43 PM
Ok look....

Take a look at Lebron's Stats from this year to his career averages. VERY VERY similar. The only big differnce which can attest to his high eff. rating is that he's quit jacking up threes!!!

He is taking 2 less 3's per game and shooting 2 less shots per game.
Basically on average he is making the same amount of field goals per game he's just not jacking up threes.

Good numbers but is it best ever NO!!!

And that's a great decision. Imagine if Kobe, Rose, Durant etc. would shoot if they passed up contested/deep shots for better/higher percentage shots.

If you're trying to knock him for shooting fewer threes, well, that's silly. Efficiency matters, tremendously. He's taken a step forward...he's a much improved player now. Shot selection and post-up game mainly being why.

naps
03-02-2012, 06:45 PM
Correct Lebron vanished in last years Finals. Nuff said

But there's more, He also vanished year before in playoffs against Boston. What was that about:confused:

And before those 2 embarrassments Lebron Has failed miserably even when his team was favorite to get to the finals by having best record all season. He fails against orlando.

Year before that failure he fails against Boston in a game 7 where he passed up game tying 3 pointer.

Lbj is a classic front runner, nothing else

Do you know what staying consistent means? You said LeBron should not be awarded MVP becuase his playoffs didn't satisfy you. Tell me what does playoffs have to do with regular season MVP??

And Lebron's only failure in playoffs was last year's finals. Other than that he has been in the GOAT class in terms of playoff performance.

ManRam
03-02-2012, 06:50 PM
Do you know what staying consistent means? You said LeBron should not be awarded MVP becuase his playoffs didn't satisfy you. Tell me what does playoffs have to do with.regular season MVP??

And Lebron only failure in playoffs was last year's finals. Other than that he has been in the GOAT class in terms of playoff.performance.

He's really only had two bad playoff series in his career, out of like 17ish (I don't know the exact number) Came at very unfortunate times. He's been more clutch than not actually, we just forget the times he went ******* (against Orlando, against Detroit, etc. back in the day).

But yeah, it doesn't matter here.

When you can't argue that he has no rings and that he choked against the Mavs (2011)/Celtics(2010), it's clear the ammunition runs dry. That's all there is left that you can discredit him with. Oh, and that he plays on a great team now...when half those people bringing that up blame him entirely for not winning with those below average Cleveland supporting casts.

KB-Pau-DH2012
03-02-2012, 06:50 PM
Do you know what staying consistent means? You said LeBron should not be awarded MVP becuase his playoffs didn't satisfy you. Tell me what does playoffs have to do with regular season MVP??

And Lebron's only failure in playoffs was last year's finals. Other than that he has been in the GOAT class in terms of playoff performance.

WRONG WRONG WRONG WRONG WRONG AGAIN!

Having homecourt advantage 2 yrs in a row and failing to get out of the East both times and last yr's finals. So essentially, that's 3 yrs ina row.

bluefire7002
03-02-2012, 06:52 PM
But it just wasn't. He was incredibly inefficient.

If all you care about are counting stats, and mainly PPG game, than sure. But that's such a infantile way to judge something.

People seem to only hate Hollinger when his stuff doesn't support what they WANT to believe. Hollinger isn't science, but it's much closer to it than most have every gotten. It's kind of like just ignoring science because you don't want to believe what science says...and that's foolish.

Hell, LeBron has had better season than that 2005-2006 season in Cleveland, and in Cleveland he had some garbage playing along side him too...

To get those 35.4 points a game he had to shoot it a whopping 27.2 times a game.

LeBron is shooting the ball 18.2 times a game this year, and is scoring 27.7 points a game. Give him 9 more shots a game to get to Kobe's 27.2, and he's topping 40.

LeBron is having the far better rebounding, passing, defending, and everything else season. He scored at a more effienct rate. Literally the only thing Kobe did more is score more points per game.

LeBron: FG% - 55% eFG% - 57% TS% 62.6%
Kobe: FG% - 45% eFG% - 49% TS% 46%

Kobe's getting waxed there. Throw in 2.7 more assists per 36, 3.3 more rebounds per 36 for LeBron, and a drastically better DRtg and ORtg.

Kobe wins the TO battle :shrug:

Most telling:

Kobe had .228 WS/48 that season
LeBron has a whopping .342 WS/48

Discount the stats all you want, but the disparity here is too huge to chalk it off as "Kobe didn't have anyone around him".

No one has really EVER had this good of a season ever, regardless of the amount of help they've had around them. There have been star players with better supporting casts that couldn't even sniff this. Kobe with the best cast he ever had never had a season 1/2 as amazing as this...so that also throws a HUGE wrench into you argument. If he had seasons like this when he had a ton of help around him (basically how you're discrediting LeBron and crediting Kobe) then you might have an argument.



Seriously, how can knock what he's doing when no player besides Kareem really has ever put up these numbers before? Jordan had some great teams. Kobe had some great teams. Larry had some great teams. Magic had some great teams. Etc...but none of them ever have done what LeBron is doing this year :shrug: It's such flawed logic it's hilarious.

This is a good post and im not knocking on you OR Lebron's season in it being great in anyway. I'm not one of those guys that goes off stats to say (yes he's better than that player blah blah). However, what I am saying is the season Kobe had that year averaging what he did average and I cant remember at the top of my head how many straight 40+ and 50+ point games he had.. BUT that to me is a lot more impressive than what Lebron is doing, and keep in mind the season is not even over. Yea your right in Lebron is averaging 27 points with a lot less attempts and he COULD average 40 if he took so and so more shots, but that to me is a lot of what IF's. It's like saying yea Kobe scored 81 points and it took him so and so shots, well Lebron is shooting in the mid 50% wise... so if he took 40+ shots Sundays game, do you guys really think he would top Kobe? Theres a reason why only one player has scored more in a game than that. I'm going a little off topic I know just never really like the "what if" thing.

Again it goes to the teammates Lebron has this year and the style of play he plays which equals a really good combo for him to be doing this well this season. Yea you are right again in the fact that Kobe, Magic, Bird etc.. had good teams as well, but honestly we could sit here all day and compare but that's comparing apples to oranges because they did not all play the same position, or in the same offensive system. Again I believe hes being this efficient due to him having a top PF and top SG which equals him getting such good looks. I mean he was not able to do this when he was the only superstar in CLE (be this efficient)

ManRam
03-02-2012, 06:54 PM
WRONG WRONG WRONG WRONG WRONG AGAIN!

Having homecourt advantage 2 yrs in a row and failing to get out of the East both times and last yr's finals. So essentially, that's 3 yrs ina row.

Do you think Kobe could have won a championship with any of LeBron's teams in Cleveland? I don't...and he never won with as poor of a cast. I'm not sure Jordan could have either, and he too never won with as weak of a class.

If LeBron continues to fail to win NOW, I'll start bashing him like everyone else. He's now had one team in his career that I think it's fair to EXPECT a championship on. This will be the second year.

No one in the league, IMO, could have won with any of those Cleveland teams. He was so clutch and dominant all those playoffs, sans that 2010 ECF. He did all he, or anyone else could have. I'd kill to see what he could have done with Gasol, Odom, Ariza, Bynum, and a great coach 3-4 years ago...

naps
03-02-2012, 06:55 PM
My favorite player made it to the three previous ones? :p

But I like how you're able to defend LeBron and back it up but guys like NAPS don't really bring up anything of significance to get their point across or back it up.


I already know LeBron is the true MVP and best player in the NBA. I was just trying to question NAPS on his understatement of how crappy LeBron played in the finals last yr.

what? Another kobephile said Lebron shouldn't be the mvp because his previos playoffs..how did that make sense? He said Lebron is a no show in the plsyoffs. I said he was a no show last years finals but he has been a terrific,playoff performer over the years. What did I not back up? You want me to disscuss hid playoff performances? I can educate you on that if you want. Let me know.

KB-Pau-DH2012
03-02-2012, 06:58 PM
what? Another kobephile said Lebron shouldn't be the mvp because his previos playoffs..how did that make sense? He said Lebron is a no show in the plsyoffs. I said he was a no show last years finals but he has been a terrific,playoff performer over the years. What did not back up? You want me to disscuss hid playoff performances? I can educate you on that if you want. Let me know.

Did I try to discredit LeBron James' 2011-2012 by talking about his 2011 Finals No-Show? .... NO


I replied to your statement, that's it.


You have reading comprehension problems sir.

ManRam
03-02-2012, 07:01 PM
This is a good post and im not knocking on you OR Lebron's season in it being great in anyway. I'm not one of those guys that goes off stats to say (yes he's better than that player blah blah). However, what I am saying is the season Kobe had that year averaging what he did average and I cant remember at the top of my head how many straight 40+ and 50+ point games he had.. BUT that to me is a lot more impressive than what Lebron is doing, and keep in mind the season is not even over. Yea your right in Lebron is averaging 27 points with a lot less attempts and he COULD average 40 if he took so and so more shots, but that to me is a lot of what IF's. It's like saying yea Kobe scored 81 points and it took him so and so shots, well Lebron is shooting in the mid 50% wise... so if he took 40+ shots Sundays game, do you guys really think he would top Kobe? Theres a reason why only one player has scored more in a game than that. I'm going a little off topic I know just never really like the "what if" thing.

Again it goes to the teammates Lebron has this year and the style of play he plays which equals a really good combo for him to be doing this well this season. Yea you are right again in the fact that Kobe, Magic, Bird etc.. had good teams as well, but honestly we could sit here all day and compare but that's comparing apples to oranges because they did not all play the same position, or in the same offensive system. Again I believe hes being this efficient due to him having a top PF and top SG which equals him getting such good looks. I mean he was not able to do this when he was the only superstar in CLE (be this efficient)

That's understandable. Again, I think we're getting too caught up in PPG...but then again, Kobe was needed to score that season (I think there were times he went into KoME mode too much...but oh well).

This is a solid post, at least you explained it articulately and with some meat on it. They were very different players that year and this year. Kobe had to be more of a scorer, and LeBron really can do just about everything and anything for his team...whether it be the defacto PG and dishing out 12 dimes, whether it mean guarding the opposing team's center, whether it means dropping 40, whether it means locking down a player...he can do it all. I don't recall a player who can shut down the league's best PG, and some of the league's centers...and everyone in between.

Different styles, different teams...but I just can't get past how insanely efficient LeBron has been. It's too remarkable for me...even more so than 40 points after 40 points after 40 points. LeBron is taking more high-percentage shots this year than Kobe did back in the day. Kobe didn't have his post-up game, and shot a lot of deep shots. So yeah, I think even with as many shots, LeBron would and could score as much. It's just not needed on this team.


Again, if Kobe had this type of crazy-efficient season when he had Shaq and Co. or Gasol and Bynum...then I'd be more inclined to think what he did was more impressive...but he's just never had this efficient of a season, even when he DID have strong casts :shrug: Know what I'm saying?

The knock is that LeBron has a great team and Kobe didn't...but why didn't Kobe ever do THIS when he had his great teams?

naps
03-02-2012, 07:07 PM
WRONG WRONG WRONG WRONG WRONG AGAIN!

Having homecourt advantage 2 yrs in a row and failing to get out of the East both times and last yr's finals. So essentially, that's 3 yrs ina row.

Well kobe couldn't even make playoffs or got knocked out from the 1ST round for 3/4 years. Why???

Lebeon had the best record with the worst team in the league. Not even Jordan could have that with those scrubs. Lebron should be hailed because of his magic with cleveland. He's just that good. I blame him because he should have won last year. I'll blame him this year if he doesnt win this year but he cant be blamed anything before miami era.

Edit: typing from my phone. So pardon me for typos.

LOOTERX9
03-02-2012, 07:13 PM
Well kobe couldn't even make playoffs or got knocked out from the 1ST round for 3/4 years. Why???

Lebeon had the best record with the worst team in tje league. Not even Jordan could habe.that with those scrubs. Lebron should hailed because of his magic with cleveland. He's just that good. I blame him because h should have won last year. I'll blame him this year if he doesnt win this year but he cant be blamed anything before miami era.


That's not true. Lebron had a good enough team to be a number 1 seed in east so why were they not good enough players for him to lead in the playoffs? Every season there's another excuse given for lebron's failures. What was his excuse playing with wade and bosh:confused: Lebron is a choke artist and he is mentally fragile

KB-Pau-DH2012
03-02-2012, 07:19 PM
Well kobe couldn't even make playoffs or got knocked out from the 1ST round for 3/4 years. Why???

Lebeon had the best record with the worst team in the league. Not even Jordan could have that with those scrubs. Lebron should be hailed because of his magic with cleveland. He's just that good. I blame him because he should have won last year. I'll blame him this year if he doesnt win this year but he cant be blamed anything before miami era.

Edit: typing from my phone. So pardon me for typos.

Fair enough. Let's see how he does this year.

SwatTeam
03-02-2012, 07:19 PM
Joel Anthony has down syndrome.



oh, i guess that french guy Lebron is pretty good. But I will always hate the french, f**kin pastry eating, adulterous, bike riding, artistic, cheating on eva longoria bastards.

I am Smart
03-02-2012, 07:20 PM
He needs to win a title, otherwise he's nothing more than a stats chaser. I'm sure his legend will be much better than being a stats chaser, but everyone knows, his stats are only as good as the number of rings he gets.

No crap, but you can't take away how good of a regular season player he has been.

KB-Pau-DH2012
03-02-2012, 07:21 PM
Joel Anthony has down syndrome.



oh, i guess that french guy Lebron is pretty good. But I will always hate the french, f**kin pastry eating, adulterous, bike riding, artistic, cheating on eva longoria bastards.

:confused:

naps
03-02-2012, 07:24 PM
That's not true. Lebron had a good enough team to be a number 1 seed in east so why were they not good enough players for him to lead in the playoffs? Every season there's another excuse given for lebron's failures. What was his excuse playing with wade and bosh:confused: Lebron is a choke artist and he is mentally fragile

Yes, that's true. The cavs had worst record in the league right after he left. He single handedly won tje regular season. playoffs are different animals. You cant win a 7 game series single handedly and when your second best.player is mo williams you shouldnt even sniff playoffs to begin with.

Now you stop going offtopic. Why dont you answer me what playoffs have to do with reg season mvp?? That's why I quoted you. Please, i wanna hear your argument.

Forty6and2
03-02-2012, 07:25 PM
PER....please....blah blah blah.
Whats LeBrons efficiency in the last 4 mins of a game..all you guys know what Im talking about so please spare me.
END OF STORY

bluefire7002
03-02-2012, 07:27 PM
Ok look....

Take a look at Lebron's Stats from this year to his career averages. VERY VERY similar. The only big differnce which can attest to his high eff. rating is that he's quit jacking up threes!!!

He is taking 2 less 3's per game and shooting 2 less shots per game.
Basically on average he is making the same amount of field goals per game he's just not jacking up threes.

Good numbers but is it best ever NO!!!

This... and what is the difference between this year and the others as to why he is so efficient? the fact he learned to play with 2 other superstars on his team which benefit his game very well.

LOOTERX9
03-02-2012, 07:30 PM
Yes, that's true. The cavs had worst record in the league right after he left. He single handedly won tje regular season. playoffs are different animals. You cant win a 7 game series single handedly and when your second best.player is mo williams you shouldnt even sniff playoffs to begin with.

Now you stop going offtopic. Why dont you answer me what playoffs have to do with reg season mvp?? That's why I quoted you. Please, i wanna hear your argument.


Don't you think it gets embarrassing for the NBA to keep having it's regular season MVP look like he's throwing games intentionally in playoffs:confused: So i would not give lebron mvp again cause we have seen this story before many times and it's gotten old

justinnum1
03-02-2012, 07:39 PM
This... and what is the difference between this year and the others as to why he is so efficient? the fact he learned to play with 2 other superstars on his team which benefit his game very well.

2 reasons, shot selection, and his post game

ManRam
03-02-2012, 07:43 PM
PER....please....blah blah blah.
Whats LeBrons efficiency in the last 4 mins of a game..all you guys know what Im talking about so please spare me.
END OF STORY

Again, we just remember the bad, and forget all the good. He's made a ton of huge shots in his career.

Discrediting 44 minutes of basketball is foolish. How often does LeBron bring his team back on his shoulders to even just make it a game? The AS game is an exhibition game, but it's fresh in our minds. He erased a 15 point deficit almost on his own...without him they wouldn't have even had a shot to tie it.

Again, we are talking about this season, and nothing else. So how is this relevent.

Again, the only three ways to knock LeBron 1. 2011 Finals 2. 2010 ECF 3. "Needing" Wade to win.

The first two are moot here, the third is silly. That Cleveland team without him is the worst team in the NBA...

ManRam
03-02-2012, 07:45 PM
2 reasons, shot selection, and his post game

Yeah. That's really all it is. Sure, playing with good players, and all-stars for once, helps...but if you watch him regularly, the reason is obvious. Shot selection and his post game. Period. He's improved both tremendously...and turned him from debatable best player in the NBA to consensus.

Rego247
03-02-2012, 07:46 PM
His legacy will be determined by what he does in the playoffs, not the regular season.

ManRam
03-02-2012, 07:49 PM
His legacy will be determined by what he does in the playoffs, not the regular season.

For sure. Last season counted more than the first 7 years or whatever combined. This season counts as much as last. Now I will start bashing him if HE doesn't get it done. I know a lot do, and a lot don't, but I give him a relatively free pass for his Cleveland years. Jordan never won with less talent, Kobe never won with less talent, Wade never won with less talent...Bird, Duncan, Shaq, Kareem, Hakeem...etc...never did...

naps
03-02-2012, 07:50 PM
Don't you think it gets embarrassing for the NBA to keep having it's regular season MVP look like he's throwing games intentionally in playoffs:confused: So i would not give lebron mvp again cause we have seen this story before many times and it's gotten old

What a logic!! Best regular season performer gets the mvp even if he's the worst playoff perfomer bcz playoffs are absolutely irrelevant on reg season mvp. I should facepalm myself for expecring logic from a kobephile.

KB-Pau-DH2012
03-02-2012, 07:51 PM
Naps, you really have to stop using the word kobephile. If you keep using that term incessantly, one can make the case that you sir are baiting. So stop.

Htownballa1622
03-02-2012, 07:55 PM
Naps, you really have to stop using the word kobephile. If you keep using that term incessantly, one can make the case that you sir are baiting. So stop.

kinda like you baiting him in the official mvp thread?


"That wasn't targeted at you. It was targeted at the guy "NAPS" who can't recognize sarcasm."

Bruno
03-02-2012, 08:06 PM
interesting stuff. his stats have been off the charts. unfortunately, there will always be an arguing point that he did it in a shortened season. if the heat win, none of that bs will matter.

justinnum1
03-02-2012, 08:11 PM
interesting stuff. his stats have been off the charts. unfortunately, there will always be an arguing point that he did it in a shortened season. if the heat win, none of that bs will matter.

Considering #s are down across the league, thats what makes it all the more impressive imo

bluefire7002
03-02-2012, 08:13 PM
Well kobe couldn't even make playoffs or got knocked out from the 1ST round for 3/4 years. Why???

Lebeon had the best record with the worst team in the league. Not even Jordan could have that with those scrubs. Lebron should be hailed because of his magic with cleveland. He's just that good. I blame him because he should have won last year. I'll blame him this year if he doesnt win this year but he cant be blamed anything before miami era.

Edit: typing from my phone. So pardon me for typos.

This was also the SAME time where the West was absolutely stacked and when if you were a 50/50 team in the east you had a good chance of getting homecourt the first round. oh and I would take Lebron's scrubs including Mo williams and their spot up shooters over Smush Parker and Kwame brown as my starters any day of the week.

LOOTERX9
03-02-2012, 08:15 PM
Lebron is a Fraud and a poser

KB-Pau-DH2012
03-02-2012, 08:17 PM
kinda like you baiting him in the official mvp thread?


"That wasn't targeted at you. It was targeted at the guy "NAPS" who can't recognize sarcasm."

Not really, sarcasm = sarcasm. Not bait. It was meant to be a nonsensical post from my part because it was meant to be a joke. But you knuckleheads are either too sensitive to understand that.

Master Mind
03-02-2012, 08:17 PM
Lebron is a Fraud and a poser

:rolleyes:

Bruno
03-02-2012, 08:24 PM
Considering #s are down across the league, thats what makes it all the more impressive imo

it is very impressive.

the argument will still be there that he wouldn't have been able to keep it up at that record mark for a full 82 game season.

justinnum1
03-02-2012, 08:28 PM
:rolleyes:

Just another knicks fan who was wishing he got lebron in 2010

justinnum1
03-02-2012, 08:28 PM
it is very impressive.

the argument will still be there that he wouldn't have been able to keep it up at that record mark for a full 82 game season.

Probably, but haters are always gonna hate

bluefire7002
03-02-2012, 08:34 PM
Probably, but haters are always gonna hate

Not hating but considering the season did start on the 25th of December... if you think about it, hes really only done this for 2 whole months. I'm not saying he cant keep this up, but it is to be determined.

esb
03-02-2012, 08:37 PM
Goes to Lebron, 45% says yes......Really?????


http://espn.go.com/sportsnation/poll/conversation/_/id/134477


The Big O averaged a triple double for the entire 1961-62 season: 30.8 points per game, 11.4 assists per game and 12.5 rebounds per game.

naps
03-02-2012, 08:37 PM
Naps, you really have to stop using the word kobephile. If you keep using that term incessantly, one can make the case that you sir are baiting. So stop.

Oh yea? Ok let's hear it from a neutral poster:




kinda like you baiting him in the official mvp thread?


"That wasn't targeted at you. It was targeted at the guy "NAPS" who can't recognize sarcasm."


Get it right yourself first. Then comeback at others. Kobephile is a common word at PSD dictionary. Even the MODs use it to make the difference between genuine Lakers fans like Bruno, Avenged24, Shep and the Kobe homers.

LOOTERX9
03-02-2012, 08:37 PM
Just another knicks fan who was wishing he got lebron in 2010

Thank Goodness knicks did not get lebron, We have a true closer in Melo. Melo wont choke like lebron has while being the favorite past few years. Melos teams were never the favorite in the much tougher western conference

justinnum1
03-02-2012, 08:37 PM
Not hating but considering the season did start on the 25th of December... if you think about it, hes really only done this for 2 whole months. I'm not saying he cant keep this up, but it is to be determined.

Didnt call you a hater, unless you hatin:cool:

But seriously, there will always be an arguemnt the haters will use, if he had a per of 35 for a whole 82 game season they would just find something else to say, like he was playing with another top 3 player...

I just hope others are enjoying and appreciating what he's doing. to many haters letting there hate blind them to what he is accomplishing. Now he just needs to get the monkey off his back and play well in the finals.

justinnum1
03-02-2012, 08:38 PM
Thank Goodness knicks did not get lebron, We have a true closer in Melo. Melo wont choke like lebron has being the favorite past few years. Melos teams were never the favorite in the much tougher western conference

And how many times did your closer get his team out the first round?

BigBlueCrew
03-02-2012, 08:39 PM
another lebron thread??

smith&wesson
03-02-2012, 08:40 PM
OK so its the best since big o. there.

naps
03-02-2012, 08:41 PM
This was also the SAME time where the West was absolutely stacked and when if you were a 50/50 team in the east you had a good chance of getting homecourt the first round. oh and I would take Lebron's scrubs including Mo williams and their spot up shooters over Smush Parker and Kwame brown as my starters any day of the week.

Blah blah blah...

I never held Kobe's failure from 2004-2007 against his greatness. It's a team sports and you can win may be handful number of games just by yourself but not a playoff series no matter how great you are. LeBron in cleveland had some something I think no other player in the history of basketball could replicate.

KB-Pau-DH2012
03-02-2012, 08:42 PM
http://forums.prosportsdaily.com/showthread.php?t=699819

It's literally 2 threads above you. :laugh2:

bluefire7002
03-02-2012, 08:42 PM
Didnt call you a hater, unless you hatin:cool:

But seriously, there will always be an arguemnt the haters will use, if he had a per of 35 for a whole 82 game season they would just find something else to say, like he was playing with another top 3 player...

I just hope others are enjoying and appreciating what he's doing. to many haters letting there hate blind them to what he is accomplishing. Now he just needs to get the monkey off his back and play well in the finals.

Haha its all good bro :cool:
Yea totally agree on haters always going to find something else to hate about

justinnum1
03-02-2012, 08:43 PM
And 90% of the people in that pole probably dont know who Robertson is and never say magic or jordan play...

so far tho he is having a top 5 statistical season of all time

ManRam
03-02-2012, 08:45 PM
That poll says "IN THE DISCUSSION or greatest statistical season of all time"

Also, we have a thread about this topic already...so I merged them.

valade16
03-02-2012, 08:45 PM
Probably, but haters are always gonna hate

Haters may Hate, but Apologists Overrate. :D

naps
03-02-2012, 08:46 PM
Lebron is a Fraud and a poser

I see your pain. It's ok. LeBron will be a FA agent in 3/4 years again. Trying one more time doesn't hurt.



Thank Goodness knicks did not get lebron, We have a true closer in Melo. Melo wont choke like lebron has while being the favorite past few years. Melos teams were never the favorite in the much tougher western conference

Melo?? Tell me what he has done in his career with a much much better team in Denver. Knicks were doing alright under Amare but started struggling as soon as they landed Melo. And Denver all of a sudden became a scary team as soon as they got rid off Melo. Yeah, Melo is the best in the league :rolleyes:

Like I said, LeBron will still be young when he becomes a FA in a couple of years. May be he'll consider to make the Knicks relevant.

bluefire7002
03-02-2012, 08:48 PM
Blah blah blah...

I never held Kobe's failure from 2004-2007 against his greatness. It's a team sports and you can win may be handful number of games just by yourself but not a playoff series no matter how great you are. LeBron in cleveland had some something I think no other player in the history of basketball could replicate.

So let me ask you... If you remember San Antonio, Phoenix, Dallas, Houston was peaking, and Denver being pretty good in 2006... Do you really think Lebron's Cleveland team could replicate what they did in the east, if they were on the west?

naps
03-02-2012, 08:53 PM
So let me ask you... If you remember San Antonio, Phoenix, Dallas, Houston was peaking, and Denver being pretty good in 2006... Do you really think Lebron's Cleveland team could replicate what they did in the east, if they were on the west?

To answer your question: YES. Can you prove me wrong? You can't. That's why I don't like to be in hypothetical too much. It is what it is. What LeBron did with those Cleveland teams was unprecedented. He took his team in the finals outplaying the great pistons literally by himself and Bobbie freaking Gibson was his second best player.
Now since playoffs series can't be won by one player consistently you can't hold it against him. None of his teammates showed up (not that they had any capability as players to step up in playoffs). Seriously, how far do you really expect your team to go in the playoffs when Mo Williams is your second best player?

Knicks21
03-02-2012, 08:57 PM
Maybe Pippen will be right? :shrug:

Needs to get rings tho.

bluefire7002
03-02-2012, 09:01 PM
To answer your question: YES. Can you prove me wrong? You can't. That's why I don't like to be in hypothetical too much. It is what it is. What LeBron did with those Cleveland teams was unprecedented. He took his team in the finals outplaying the great pistons literally by himself and Bobbie freaking Gibson was his second best player.
Now since playoffs series can't be won by one player consistently you can't hold it against him. None of his teammates showed up (not that they had any capability as players to step up in playoffs). Seriously, how far do you really expect your team to go in the playoffs when Mo Williams is your second best player?

LOL this goes back to my Point in my other post... What happened when his team faced a West team that year? he didint get ONE win. Yes, that is what I said in my post as well, he had Mo Williams and other spot up shooters. Players I would choose every time over smush and kwame though. Well if you believe that, thats cool it is your opinion. I believe put those Lakers in the east and they had a good chance to make the Finals as well rather than getting knocked out by the suns.

Htownballa1622
03-02-2012, 09:02 PM
Not really, sarcasm = sarcasm. Not bait. It was meant to be a nonsensical post from my part because it was meant to be a joke. But you knuckleheads are either too sensitive to understand that.

I wasn't sensitive :)
I was just pointing it out. Same way you weren't baiting, i'm sure he wasn't by saying just kobephile. comprehension is key. ;)

cubbiefan_est88
03-02-2012, 09:05 PM
Lebron choked, whatever. He's 27. Jordan didnt win his first till 28. If bron finished his career with 4 rings, he will be top 5. I know its hard to comprehend the bold, but bron has many years left and he keeps getting better. Haters should just enjoy the ring excuse while it lasts(which wont be much longer)

Also, haters are missing out on some of the best most exciting basketball in a long time.

I love how every Lebron apologist mentions this. Jordan won his first 'ship when he was 27 and SEVEN years into then league. Lebron is NINE years into the league and into his SECOND team. Enuf with the excuses.



Clap clap clap

KB-Pau-DH2012
03-02-2012, 09:05 PM
To answer your question: YES. Can you prove me wrong? You can't. That's why I don't like to be in hypothetical too much. It is what it is. What LeBron did with those Cleveland teams was unprecedented. He took his team in the finals outplaying the great pistons literally by himself and Bobbie freaking Gibson was his second best player.
Now since playoffs series can't be won by one player consistently you can't hold it against him. None of his teammates showed up (not that they had any capability as players to step up in playoffs). Seriously, how far do you really expect your team to go in the playoffs when Mo Williams is your second best player?

One thing I can say about conference records is that I don't think LeBron would necessarily have the same record with the Cavs if they were out in the West.

First reason: Time Zone. You get 2-3 hours less of sleep going from West to East. East to West, you get basically 2-3 hours extra of preparation and get more rest time.


Second reason: Scheduling. Teams like the Cavs and Heat and many Eastern Conference teams have back-to-back home games on back-to-back nights. Not many teams out West (most notably my Lakers) from what I can remember have ever had back-to-back home games on back-to-back nights since I've been a fan of the team over 25 yrs. Not even once I don't think.


Third reason: Competition. When you're out in the east, you can have a whole stretch of 5 out of 6 games (vs Bobcats, vs Nets, @ Nets, @ Hawks, vs Wizards, @ Bobcats) where you play sucky teams and you basically blow them out, and what that happens when you're a decent to good team is you win all those games and it creates momentum for you. It's much easier to string 5 or 6 consecutive wins in the east when you seeing an overrated Hawks or a Bobcats or Nets or Wizards team for like 2 straight weeks.

KB-Pau-DH2012
03-02-2012, 09:06 PM
I wasn't sensitive :)
I was just pointing it out. Same way you weren't baiting, i'm sure he wasn't by saying just kobephile. comprehension is key. ;)

Sweet. ;)

naps
03-02-2012, 09:09 PM
LOL this goes back to my Point in my other post... What happened when his team faced a West team that year? he didint get ONE win. Yes, that is what I said in my post as well, he had Mo Williams and other spot up shooters. Players I would choose every time over smush and kwame though. Well if you believe that, thats cool it is your opinion. I believe put those Lakers in the east and they had a good chance to make the Finals as well rather than getting knocked out by the suns.

Fair enough if hypotheticals make you happy. I am talking about facts and no one can prove me wrong. No one in the history of basketball had won as many games as LeBron with similar talent. NO ONE.

LOOTERX9
03-02-2012, 09:10 PM
And how many times did your closer get his team out the first round?


Melo played in a tougher conference where as lebron's cavs would not have even made playoffs most those years in the west that melo's team made it

naps
03-02-2012, 09:14 PM
One thing I can say about conference records is that I don't think LeBron would necessarily have the same record with the Cavs if they were out in the West.

First reason: Time Zone. You get 2-3 hours less of sleep going from West to East. East to West, you get basically 2-3 hours extra of preparation and get more rest time.


Second reason: Scheduling. Teams like the Cavs and Heat and many Eastern Conference teams have back-to-back home games on back-to-back nights. Not many teams out West (most notably my Lakers) from what I can remember have ever had back-to-back home games on back-to-back nights since I've been a fan of the team over 25 yrs. Not even once I don't think.


Third reason: Competition. When you're out in the east, you can have a whole stretch of 5 out of 6 games (vs Bobcats, vs Nets, @ Nets, @ Hawks, vs Wizards, @ Bobcats) where you play sucky teams and you basically blow them out, and what that happens when you're a decent to good team is you win all those games and it creates momentum for you. It's much easier to string 5 or 6 consecutive wins in the east when you seeing an overrated Hawks or a Bobcats or Nets or Wizards team for like 2 straight weeks.


Dude, none of that prove anything wrong. What did LeBron did is the fact. Hypotheticals can't take anything away from him. All I am saying is that Cleveland had great regular season success with very little talent. But none of those teams were supposed to be better than Spurs, Celtics, or the Lakers. You can't beat great teams with multiple allstars with Mo Williams or Bobbie Gibson as your second best player.

justinnum1
03-02-2012, 09:17 PM
Melo played in a tougher conference where as lebron's cavs would not have even made playoffs most those years in the west that melo's team made it


Glad i could make my point. instead of having an intelligent response you hate on lebron:rolleyes:


lol, your reaching, reaching...

KB-Pau-DH2012
03-02-2012, 09:18 PM
Dude, none of that prove anything wrong. What did LeBron did is the fact. Hypotheticals can't take anything away from him. All I am saying is that Cleveland had great regular season success with very little talent. But none of those teams were supposed to be better than Spurs, Celtics, or the Lakers. You can't beat great teams with multiple allstars with Mo Williams or Bobbie Gibson as your second best player.

Not taking anything away from LeBron. But there is something to be said something about the scheduling (obviously that's not LeBron's fault, that totally the NBA's scheduling people just being so illogical with some things like back-to-back home games on back-to-back nights for some teams and other teams don't have that luxury).

ghettosean
03-02-2012, 10:04 PM
Didnt call you a hater, unless you hatin:cool:

But seriously, there will always be an arguemnt the haters will use, if he had a per of 35 for a whole 82 game season they would just find something else to say, like he was playing with another top 3 player...

I just hope others are enjoying and appreciating what he's doing. to many haters letting there hate blind them to what he is accomplishing. Now he just needs to get the monkey off his back and play well in the finals.

Playing with a top 3 player in the world yes he is ;) Let's not pretend that doesn't take a ton of attention off his back cause if you try and shut him down Wade will just go off instead. If Michael Jordan played with Magic and pippen I think MJ would put up better numbers in today's game then LBJ is right now... Just saying. There is no denying that Lebron is having one of the greatest seasons ever but with what I just said I think you can see why. Regardless he is playing great basketball and having a great season there is no denying that.

mdm692
03-02-2012, 11:08 PM
Wilt?

Ill21
03-02-2012, 11:23 PM
God look what I created I get home from work expecting a nice convo going. But once again all I see is fighting between Knicks and heat fans. You guys need to grow up. It is almost impossible to have a discussion about the heat or Knicks on here with out people being *******s.

TopsyTurvy
03-02-2012, 11:23 PM
Not trying to belittle Lebron's performance, but this season's stats and metrics will all have the specter of "lockout shortened season" attached to them. The same goes for a championship.

JJ_JKidd
03-03-2012, 12:18 AM
LeBron having greatest season ever?
John Hollinger [ARCHIVE]

ESPN.com | March 1, 2012
31.89.

That number may not mean much to many of you, but for those of us who track player efficiency rating it represents the hallowed mark of one Michael Jeffrey Jordan in 1987-88, the best mark in the game's modern history. (PER only tracks back to 1977-78, when the league began tracking individual turnovers. While we can estimate that it would have been really, really good, we don't know what Wilt Chamberlain's or Oscar Robertson's PER would have been without individual steals or blocks or offensive/defensive rebound splits.)

PER, for the uninitiated, is a rating of a player's per-minute statistical effectiveness that I developed several years ago. The formula is too long and complex to explain here, but you can learn all about it at this link.

And this season, that mark is in jeopardy.

With half a season in the books, LeBron James' PER stands at 32.41, which not only eclipses Jordan's best season but does so by a full half-point. While we emphasize that this puts him on track for the best regular season in the game's modern history -- James still has much to prove come June -- it nonetheless would represent a spectacular accomplishment.

It also puts another notch in LeBron's career file; even if he doesn't end up breaking Jordan's record, he's likely to add another 31-plus season to his file and give himself three of the top seven all-time PER seasons; Jordan has the other four (see chart). Any way you slice it, he's putting himself in some fairly lofty company.

TOP ALL-TIME PER SEASONS

That, of course, raises all kinds of questions, and I'm going to try to answer a few of them. Let's start from the top:

What are the odds he actually does it?

Still much less than 50-50, I would argue. We have to remember that we're in a shortened season, so James has played only 1,212 minutes -- barely a third of his total in 2008-09, when he threatened the mark until the final week of the season.

In 1,212 minutes we can still see the effects of some outliers, and I'd argue James' shooting percentages fall in that category. While a big chunk of his improvement in true shooting percentage results simply from the decision to shoot fewer 3s, his 56.3 percent mark on 2s still exceeds his career norms, and his 41.3 percent on 3s vastly exceeds it. Additionally, he's at 77.3 percent from the line, bettering his career mark of 74.6 percent.

It's possible he keeps this up for an entire season, but as always the prudent way to bet is on the longer-term trend he established in the other 25,000 minutes of his career. Moreover, those numbers don't need to dip much to have him fall short of Jordan -- when you're dealing with "best all time," even a merely great performance isn't good enough. For instance, if James has a PER of 31.00 in the second half of the season -- which itself would be one of the best marks of all time -- he'll end up falling short.

Second, the last week of the season may hurt his cause. In April of 2009, LeBron's Cavs had the top seed wrapped up and put it in cruise control over the final few games; a coasting James hurt his numbers in those games and lost any shot of catching Jordan. As long as Chicago and Oklahoma City push the Heat for the league's top record this won't be a factor, but should those two fall off the pace then James may again see a late dip. Alternatively, it's possible the Heat will fall off the pace and find themselves locked into the East's second seed.

How is he doing this?

At first glance, it doesn't seem right that James' mark would be so lofty. After all, his per-game averages pale beside the ones he put up in his final two seasons in Cleveland.

This is where factors like adjusting for minutes and normalizing to league averages become important. First, because James is playing only 36.7 minutes per game in Miami rather than the 37.7 he played in 2008-09 or the whopping 39.0 he played in 2009-10, his per-game averages take a bit of a hit.

The more important effect, however, is that of lockoutball. With shooting percentages and offensive efficiency down around the league, it's made what James has done -- crushing his career high in true shooting percentage at 62.4 (his career average is 52.8) -- that much more impressive. Less obviously, James has also gone wild on the boards. His 13.0 rebound rate is the best of any true small forward (Dominic McGuire often plays the 4) and by far the best of his career.

This comparison can be seen more obviously by comparing LeBron to his peers. Take Kevin Durant, for instance, a supernatural scoring machine who has led the league in scoring the past two seasons and annually posts true shooting percentages around 60. Well, James averages more points per minute than Durant this year and has him beat in true shooting percentage, too. Add in that he has by far the best rebound rate of any wing player and that he has the secondary stats of a point guard, ranking 11th in assists and ninth in steals, and it becomes easier to see why this half-season is historic.

Sum it up, and James has dramatically improved his effectiveness as a scorer with no drop-off in the broad-based dominance that had already made him one of the best players in history.

What about Wade?

The most interesting part of LeBron's stats is comparing how he plays with and without Dwyane Wade on the court. Due to an early-season injury to Wade, LeBron has played nearly half his minutes this season without his tag-team partner, and one could argue that's helped him revert to Cleveland mode and taking over games himself.

The potential drawback, obviously, is that a healthy Wade could be a drag on James' stats in the second half of the season. Both this year and last year, James averages only a shade over 15 shots per 36 minutes with Wade on the court, according to this StatsCube comparison on NBA.com. By comparison, James takes 20.3 shots per 36 minutes and more free throws when Wade is off the floor, and his assists increase, too.

That said, the visible anti-synergy between the two a year ago has been replaced with a much better understanding of how to take advantage of each other's strengths. Wade now averages the same number of shots whether James is playing with him or not, although the non-LeBron sample is small (just 153 minutes). Meanwhile, James' field goal percentages zoom up to 58 percent when he plays with Wade, and the difference in shots when Wade is with him is much less than a year ago.

Nonetheless, at the margin one wonders if Wade's health will determine whether James can ultimately set the record. The only way to pull it off is to use a ton of possessions with extremely high efficiency; LeBron has the second item in the bag, but sharing the ball with Wade could still leave him a bit short on the first criteria. Even with the increased efficiency playing with Wade, it's difficult to make up a 25 percent shortfall in shots.

Sum it up and that's one of many reasons that, even with James on pace to crush the PER record, the smart money is still on Mike. But whether he gets there or not, it's been an amazing half-season from James, and one that hasn't received nearly the credit it should have.

Yeah right he's having a great REGULAR SEASON allright!

Wait till the Finals again :facepalm::facepalm::facepalm:

bucketss
03-03-2012, 12:31 AM
Melo played in a tougher conference where as lebron's cavs would not have even made playoffs most those years in the west that melo's team made it

melo also played with much better players those years, i mean ira newble was getting mins on the cavs final team

Forty6and2
03-03-2012, 02:31 AM
LeBron lights out in second half of tonights game against Utah....but what happens when there is 4 seconds left in the game...he passes to Udonis Haslem who is above the free throw line and misses. 0 efficiency in my opinion.....Lakers have the ball, we know whos taking that shot, Dirks taking that shot for the Mavs (cough cough) as is Pierce for the C's. Jordan and Bird always took that shot and everyone knew it but they still shot the ball...LeBron is scared to fail...0 efficincy

justinnum1
03-03-2012, 02:36 AM
LeBron lights out in second half of tonights game against Utah....but what happens when there is 4 seconds left in the game...he passes to Udonis Haslem who is above the free throw line and misses. 0 efficiency in my opinion.....Lakers have the ball, we know whos taking that shot, Dirks taking that shot for the Mavs (cough cough) as is Pierce for the C's. Jordan and Bird always took that shot and everyone knew it but they still shot the ball...LeBron is scared to fail...0 efficincy

MVP front runner, has it all but locked up:)

justinnum1
03-03-2012, 02:37 AM
Not trying to belittle Lebron's performance, but this season's stats and metrics will all have the specter of "lockout shortened season" attached to them. The same goes for a championship.

larry o brian trophy will look the same :cool:

KB-Pau-DH2012
03-03-2012, 02:44 AM
larry o brian trophy will look the same :cool:

Correction: Larry O' Brien

smiddy012
03-03-2012, 02:59 AM
Lebron's the statistical GOAT. He's better than MJ, he's also a better finisher than MJ, along with Kobe, Magic, & Larry. He's even better than microwavable bacon... actually, I digress, I may be wrong, and please correct me if I am, but, I do believe the advent of microwavable bacon came after LBJ, so microwavable bacon is in fact better than LBJ. Sorry Lebron :(

But how does Lebron do in the 4th statistically?

I love it when people Crown LBJ before he even has a Crown to put on, all it does if **** him over apparently, and I'm all for ****ing him up :D

DaLakerz Rulz
03-03-2012, 03:07 AM
Lebron's the statistical GOAT. He's better than MJ, he's also a better finisher than MJ, along with Kobe, Magic, & Larry. He's the best thing since microwavable bacon... actually, I digress, I may be wrong, and please correct me if I am, but, I do believe microwavable bacon came after LBJ, so microwavable bacon is in fact better than LBJ. Sorry Lebron :(

But how does Lebron do in the 4th statistically?

I love it when people Crown LBJ before he even has a Crown to put on, all it does if **** him over apparently, and I'm all for ****ing him up :D

King James doesn't need to win a crown because he was born with one. He is the chosen one.

ThunderousDemon
03-03-2012, 03:10 AM
King James doesn't need to win a crown because he was born with one. He is the chosen one.

He'll need more than a crown to cover up that receding hair line. http://www.pic4ever.com/images/funny.gif

lakersfan01
03-03-2012, 03:18 AM
I've come full circle on Lebron since we now have more insight into the pos that Dan Gilbert is. The Decision is hilarious in hindsight; Gilbert deserved to be dumped live on national television.

That being said, we all know that Lebron is the best regular season player currently in the NBA. Ask me in June if he's Finals MVP raising the championship trophy.

Wilt Chamberlain averaged 50 ppg, no he's not having the best regular season ever. But Lebron definitely deserves regular season MVP award this season.

Raph12
03-03-2012, 04:39 AM
Called it already, just destroying his competition... I'll be the first to admit that I didn't expect him to ever put up Cleveland 2009/2010 numbers again, let alone exceed them.

Demon11
03-03-2012, 04:45 AM
It doesn't matter how good Lebron's PER is, he doesn't have a ring so he is technically not a basketball player.

McPeak92
03-03-2012, 05:13 AM
Wilt averaged 50.4 points per game and 25.6 rebounds per game in the 61-62 season. I'd like to see someone try to say LeBron is having a better season.

Raph12
03-03-2012, 05:30 AM
Wilt averaged 50.4 points per game and 25.6 rebounds per game in the 61-62 season. I'd like to see someone try to say LeBron is having a better season.

Lebron is having a better season... Not so difficult to say. :shrug:

WadeKobe
03-03-2012, 05:32 AM
Wilt averaged 50.4 points per game and 25.6 rebounds per game in the 61-62 season. I'd like to see someone try to say LeBron is having a better season.

The pace was so ridiculous that year, that his pace-adjusted statistics would be much closer to earth. Likewise, it was one of the worst shooting seasons in NBA history, lending to a ridiculous amount of available rebounds. His actual rebounding % that season wasn't anywhere near as incredible as his 25.6 rebounds deceptively would make it appear.

basketfan4life
03-03-2012, 10:02 AM
For the first time in my life, i rooted for lebron last night against jazz, he was so ridiculosly good i couldn't believe the things he has done. Some ridicuolus fadeaway, hand in his face, off balanced jumpers. He made all of them and i was in awe...

But come last shot, he had a clear shot and didn't take it and passed it to Haslem, and they lost the game. He said "i made the right play." Right play my ***, because nearly all of your shots were wrong basketball plays and you made them all you scored them all. Then come last shot, he chickened out again.

Edit: people here always says if you play great for 47 minutes you don't need the last one, well lebron played better than great for 47 and a half minutes but they still needed the last one.

AIRMAR72
03-03-2012, 11:02 AM
For the first time in my life, i rooted for lebron last night against jazz, he was so ridiculosly good i couldn't believe the things he has done. Some ridicuolus fadeaway, hand in his face, off balanced jumpers. He made all of them and i was in awe...

But come last shot, he had a clear shot and didn't take it and passed it to Haslem, and they lost the game. He said "i made the right play." Right play my ***, because nearly all of your shots were wrong basketball plays and you made them all you scored them all. Then come last shot, he chickened out again.

Edit: people here always says if you play great for 47 minutes you don't need the last one, well lebron played better than great for 47 and a half minutes but they still needed the last one.

bron IS great. not since bernard king that ive a SF with shoot at a high FG % furthermore wade present really helps since he also demands a double team even if bron dosent win a title which he will before is career is over is MVPs and numbers SPEAKS for it self

Cfrey
03-03-2012, 01:05 PM
why does everyone credit wade for lebrons performance ?? LOL

wade isn't the reason lebron is shooting 55%.. and in fact, ive said it many times and ill say it again.. to put up the numbers lebron is with two other star players on the team is more impressive because everyone was thinking lebrons statistics would decrease after he joined the heat

justinnum1
03-03-2012, 01:09 PM
why does everyone credit wade for lebrons performance ?? LOL

wade isn't the reason lebron is shooting 55%.. and in fact, ive said it many times and ill say it again.. to put up the numbers lebron is with two other star players on the team is more impressive because everyone was thinking lebrons statistics would decrease after he joined the heat

They have to fins some way to make brons numbers look worse than they really are.

Cfrey
03-03-2012, 01:14 PM
They have to fins some way to make brons numbers look worse than they really are.

people are literally mentally handicapped on this site lmao... wade was the reason the heat lost last night if we are going to go into..

its funny how obsessed people are with lebron.. if someone is a lebron hater its because he poses the BIGGEST threat as surpassing Jordan as the best player ever..

people expected lebron to come in and be the next jordan and they look for anything they can to slander the dude..

its amazing that someone who is so much better than everyone else in the league is hated on soooooooooooooo much

you look at guys like manning, brees, brady, rodgers... all faces of the NFL and the top QBs, yeah they have haters, but overall they are liked and respected throughout the league..

lebron ***** on people and gets hate cause he's that much better than everyone else

WadeKobe
03-03-2012, 01:38 PM
For the first time in my life, i rooted for lebron last night against jazz, he was so ridiculosly good i couldn't believe the things he has done. Some ridicuolus fadeaway, hand in his face, off balanced jumpers. He made all of them and i was in awe...

But come last shot, he had a clear shot and didn't take it and passed it to Haslem, and they lost the game. He said "i made the right play." Right play my ***, because nearly all of your shots were wrong basketball plays and you made them all you scored them all. Then come last shot, he chickened out again.

Edit: people here always says if you play great for 47 minutes you don't need the last one, well lebron played better than great for 47 and a half minutes but they still needed the last one.

As a lifelong Heat fan.... he made the right basketball play. Haslem is money from 17.

James went left, drew the double team, got a 3-on-2 for his teammates, and kicked it to Haslem who was open for Haslem's bread-and-butter shot. Haslem had the option then to either shoot or pass again to another open shooter.

He felt good about the shot, took it, and missed. That's basketball. It happens. I guarantee you that Wade, Spoelstra, and Riley all agree that he made the right basketball play.

Your first job as a player is to trust your teammates. An open shot is an open shot. That will bode well for them in the playoffs. Trusting each other is key. It was the perfect basketball play.

TopsyTurvy
03-03-2012, 02:03 PM
larry o brian trophy will look the same :cool:

Even Hollinger discusses the outliers inherent to his analysis -- and when Hollinger cedes that he's essentially saying "this metric is ridiculous, but it means next to nothing." There's a reason he's a pundit and not performing analysis for a team.

Oh by the way, the '98-'99 Spurs called to let you know they won a title - in a shortened season. They went 11-1 in the playoffs - in a 50 game season. Tim Duncan won the Finals MVP trophy - in a shortened season.

Lebron elevating his play - in a shortened season - says as much about him as a player and athlete as it does the state of the rest of league. Coming into the season, everyone knew 'how good' Lebron James was and - in this 66-game season - a simple correlation study will show (though it's not needed) that Lebron is outperforming the rest of the league more than he is outperforming himself. There's no doubt he's improving, but compared to himself and the rest of the league - in this lockout shortened year - he's just being Lebron.

willabeast77
03-14-2012, 08:44 PM
This is LeBron's year. The MVP is his clearly so far. Miami's got to win the title this season and he got to win Finals MVP or at least be good enough in the finals, to cap off his season. Otherwise it could end up pretty much useless.

beliges
03-15-2012, 01:22 AM
Lebron's averaging 27ppg/8.5 rpg/6.6 apg while shooting 55%. Hes having a terrific season but this whole "best season ever" thing is pretty silly. Other players have put up better numbers and other players have had better seasons. But he is having having the best individual season this year.

Lets also keep in mind Durant for a second. Lets remember that Durant has done more with less talent around him as far as winning goes this season.

Raph12
03-15-2012, 01:41 AM
Lebron's averaging 27ppg/8.5 rpg/6.6 apg while shooting 55%. Hes having a terrific season but this whole "best season ever" thing is pretty silly. Other players have put up better numbers and other players have had better seasons. But he is having having the best individual season this year.

Lets also keep in mind Durant for a second. Lets remember that Durant has done more with less talent around him as far as winning goes this season.

Durant's team is more talented overall and per game stats don't mean ****.

WadeKobe
03-15-2012, 05:23 PM
Durant's team is more talented overall and per game stats don't mean ****.

:eyebrow: I fail to see how anyone could make an argument against Miami as the most talented team in the league. This isn't even me being a homer.... because at the end of the day the "homer" flip-flops around, saying we're not the most talented when it helps their case, then saying we are when it helps.

1-9, there is not a more talented team in basketball than the Miami Heat.

ghettosean
03-15-2012, 05:46 PM
:eyebrow: I fail to see how anyone could make an argument against Miami as the most talented team in the league. This isn't even me being a homer.... because at the end of the day the "homer" flip-flops around, saying we're not the most talented when it helps their case, then saying we are when it helps.

1-9, there is not a more talented team in basketball than the Miami Heat.
You can say they are deeper but if you are talking talent there should be no argument. Everyone here says LBJ is the best player in the league playing with the best players 2 top 15 players in Bosh and Wade.

There should be no argument on this.. Though they are 2nd in the east that's odd for the best to be 2nd???

valade16
03-15-2012, 05:53 PM
Durant's team is more talented overall and per game stats don't mean ****.

And your word is Law! :rolleyes:

If an advanced stat says LeBron this year is having the best season ever than you might as well drop the "advanced" from the stat.

kArSoN RyDaH
03-15-2012, 06:00 PM
they will be prepared with something new, and even dumber, don't worry.

Not dumber, but probably something along the lines of "That's it?" lol.

Chronz
03-15-2012, 09:02 PM
Wilt averaged 50.4 points per game and 25.6 rebounds per game in the 61-62 season. I'd like to see someone try to say LeBron is having a better season.

That wasnt even Wilts best season

SportsAndrew25
03-16-2012, 12:51 AM
He better win a ring or this season will look bad.

CudiOnMyiPod
03-16-2012, 12:55 AM
I'd say Wilt's 50/25 season was the best all time.

I'd also say that Oscar Robertson probably had about 7 or 8 better seasons than LeBron's 2011-2012 season.


LeBron is still the clear frontrunner for MVP.

b@llhog24
03-16-2012, 01:07 AM
I'd say Wilt's 50/25 season was the best all time.

I'd also say that Oscar Robertson probably had about 7 or 8 better seasons than LeBron's 2011-2012 season.


LeBron is still the clear frontrunner for MVP.

No, No and yes.

Raph12
03-16-2012, 01:09 AM
:eyebrow: I fail to see how anyone could make an argument against Miami as the most talented team in the league. This isn't even me being a homer.... because at the end of the day the "homer" flip-flops around, saying we're not the most talented when it helps their case, then saying we are when it helps.

1-9, there is not a more talented team in basketball than the Miami Heat.

Minus Lebron and Durant; Miami has Wade and Bosh surrounded by shooters, without a good center or PG; in comparison, OKC has Westbrook and Ibaka, who on any given night can give you 20-20-10, he's the x-factor the Heat don't have. Then you throw in Harden off the bench, Harden has been ballin' on a completely different level this season (with efficiency off the charts, playmaking skills and the ability to draw fouls as well as anyone not named Dwight or Lebron), so he comes in off the bench to carry the second unit.

Westbrook's dominance+ Harden's bench + Ibaka's x-factor play > Wade's dominance + Bosh's limited strong play + shooters

The fact that Harden has outplayed Bosh, both as third options, should be alarming enough.


And your word is Law! :rolleyes:

If an advanced stat says LeBron this year is having the best season ever than you might as well drop the "advanced" from the stat.

Glad you know the rules of PSD :p

If a bunch of guys who've never watched Wilt play are saying he had the best season ever, you might as well consider my word to be "Law!".

Birdmannn
03-16-2012, 01:17 AM
Hard to compare todays game to what happened in the early sixties. The game has changed.
Lebrons season is with no possible argument the best of the last 15-20 years, to be able to say that with the talent we have witnessed during that stretch is an incredible achievement.
The argument that this is easily done because of the star power around him is not right, and can be looked at both ways since he now has to share his stats and touches with two very talented team mates.

WadeKobe
03-16-2012, 02:08 AM
Minus Lebron and Durant; Miami has Wade and Bosh surrounded by shooters, without a good center or PG; in comparison, OKC has Westbrook and Ibaka, who on any given night can give you 20-20-10, he's the x-factor the Heat don't have. Then you throw in Harden off the bench, Harden has been ballin' on a completely different level this season (with efficiency off the charts, playmaking skills and the ability to draw fouls as well as anyone not named Dwight or Lebron), so he comes in off the bench to carry the second unit.

Westbrook's dominance+ Harden's bench + Ibaka's x-factor play > Wade's dominance + Bosh's limited strong play + shooters

Absolutely not.

Wade is better than Durant.

Bosh is better than anyone else on their roster not named Durant.

Miami's #2 > OKC's #1
Miami's #3 > OKC's #2

Chalmers is way better than anyone gives him credit for. Haslem, Cole, Miller, Battier are an outstanding bench.

Battier > OKC's best defensive player
Haslem > anyone on OKC's bench not named Harden

We're simply the best, most talented team in the league 1-9. There's no way around it.

lavilevi23
03-16-2012, 02:31 AM
Absolutely not.

Wade is better than Durant.

Bosh is better than anyone else on their roster not named Durant.

Miami's #2 > OKC's #1
Miami's #3 > OKC's #2

Chalmers is way better than anyone gives him credit for. Haslem, Cole, Miller, Battier are an outstanding bench.

Battier > OKC's best defensive player
Haslem > anyone on OKC's bench not named Harden

We're simply the best, most talented team in the league 1-9. There's no way around it.

This 100%.

Raph12
03-16-2012, 02:35 AM
Absolutely not.

Wade is better than Durant.

Bosh is better than anyone else on their roster not named Durant.

Miami's #2 > OKC's #1
Miami's #3 > OKC's #2

Chalmers is way better than anyone gives him credit for. Haslem, Cole, Miller, Battier are an outstanding bench.

Battier > OKC's best defensive player
Haslem > anyone on OKC's bench not named Harden

We're simply the best, most talented team in the league 1-9. There's no way around it.

Wade is better than Durant; but both Westbrook and Harden are both better than Bosh. This is not Toronto, with Lebron and Wade in the game, Bosh becomes just a jumpshooter, hell even when they hit the bench, the offense doesn't go through Bosh. Ibaka alone is better than the rest of the Heat team combined on any given night (possible 20-20-10)...

It's close, definitely close, but OKC gets the nod.

john545455
03-16-2012, 02:45 AM
I wouldn't get to hyped up on his PER rating because the guy rarley takes anymore 3 point attempts. I think he realized he couldn't shoot and started posting up.

basketfan4life
03-16-2012, 04:21 AM
how can PER be the determining factor of greatest season ever, when it's dependent on the other players in the league? Lebron is just shooting better this year, his other numbers are identical to his career numbers, he is the mvp thus for, best player in the league this season, but greatest season ever? you gotta be kidding me.

D1JM
03-16-2012, 04:28 AM
wow. ibaka is better than bosh

D1JM
03-16-2012, 04:43 AM
overall bosh .75 ppp, ibaka .82 ppp.
isolation bosh .41 ppp, ibaka .78

ibaka has some nice blocks though and can rebound, but he isnt better than bosh defensively nor offensively. and if bosh is your #3 to go guy on your team, you are more than set.

OutOfTHEBLUE
03-16-2012, 04:59 AM
Ummm, Wilt Chamberlain and his '61-'62 season says hi!!! LOL

50.4 PPG & 25.7 RPG.

D1JM
03-16-2012, 05:11 AM
And like all the other sports, the game has changed simce Jordan set the mark.

I like how most people ignored your post. No one cares though because if you dont bow down to him, you are a hater

Raph12
03-16-2012, 05:26 AM
overall bosh .75 ppp, ibaka .82 ppp.
isolation bosh .41 ppp, ibaka .78

ibaka has some nice blocks though and can rebound, but he isnt better than bosh defensively nor offensively. and if bosh is your #3 to go guy on your team, you are more than set.

Who said Ibaka is better than Bosh? Oh and to say Bosh is better defensively, shows how little you know about defensive numbers.

Westbrook and Harden have both been much better than Bosh this season, easily... Ibaka is better than 4-15 on the Heat team.

D1JM
03-16-2012, 05:42 AM
Who said Ibaka is better than Bosh? Oh and to say Bosh is better defensively, shows how little you know about defensive numbers.

Westbrook and Harden have both been much better than Bosh this season, easily... Ibaka is better than 4-15 on the Heat team.

Because I had thought you were referring to ibaka being better than everyone outside wade and lebron.


Only you know about Defensive numbers. I wonder how they rank overall :rolleyes:


0.52PPP given up in iso situations, ranked #10; in comparison, Iguodala gives up 0.79PPP and is ranked #122.

#just saying

YoungOne
03-16-2012, 05:51 AM
**** per

Chronz
03-16-2012, 01:57 PM
how can PER be the determining factor of greatest season ever, when it's dependent on the other players in the league? Lebron is just shooting better this year, his other numbers are identical to his career numbers, he is the mvp thus for, best player in the league this season, but greatest season ever? you gotta be kidding me.
Do you mean THE determining factor, or are you saying it shouldnt be considered at all? Not getting what your complaint is here

Raph12
03-16-2012, 02:33 PM
Because I had thought you were referring to ibaka being better than everyone outside wade and lebron.

No, everyone outside of Wade-Lebron-Bosh.


Only you know about Defensive numbers. I wonder how they rank overall :rolleyes:

You're only further proving my point, the system has flaws.

basketfan4life
03-16-2012, 03:47 PM
Do you mean THE determining factor, or are you saying it shouldnt be considered at all? Not getting what your complaint is here

on this forum, % 90 of time, when people talk about lebron this year, i see people going like lebrons PER is 33+, that's the best ever, this is the best season ever. That is what my complaint is.

To me, Michael Jordan from 86 to 91 and 93 is better than LeBron statistically...
i don't care what PER says, but when i look at it, i see mj shooting only slightly (%1) shooting worse than LBJ, getting nearly as much assits, scoring bunch of more points,stealing a lot more,blocking more, absolutely trustable on the line, and i don't care if he is getting 1-2 less rebounds considering the height difference and positions.

Come on, some guy came up with a thing called PER, which may be accurate to an extent, and we're deciding the greatest seaseon ever by that ? that is ridicuolus.

Chronz
03-16-2012, 04:36 PM
on this forum, % 90 of time, when people talk about lebron this year, i see people going like lebrons PER is 33+, that's the best ever, this is the best season ever. That is what my complaint is.
I see them discuss all his advanced metrics (from synergy to WS). But I dont see anything wrong with using an objective metric across all eras to draw comparisons.


To me, Michael Jordan from 86 to 91 and 93 is better than LeBron statistically...
i don't care what PER says, but when i look at it, i see mj shooting only slightly (%1) shooting worse than LBJ, getting nearly as much assits, scoring bunch of more points,stealing a lot more,blocking more, absolutely trustable on the line, and i don't care if he is getting 1-2 less rebounds considering the height difference and positions.

Well yea if you dont care about the results you can come up with any argument you want. Your statistical evaluation doesnt account for pace and league averages, seeing thats the case why dont you have Wilt and Big O as the statistical monsters above MJ? Obviously on some level you try to account for the evolution of the league, yet you hate when a statistical model is created to do that much more effectively? I dont see your complaint.



Come on, some guy came up with a thing called PER, which may be accurate to an extent, and we're deciding the greatest seaseon ever by that ? that is ridicuolus.
I have a problem (if you can call it that) with anyone that uses any 1 stat as the end all to any argument, but I also have a problem with someone who dismisses any stat because they dont care.

basketfan4life
03-16-2012, 04:40 PM
I have a problem (if you can call it that) with anyone that uses any 1 stat as the end all to any argument, but I also have a problem with someone who dismisses any stat because they dont care.

i already said PER is accountable to an extent, i just don't care for people whose sole argument is that.

Chronz
03-16-2012, 04:47 PM
i already said PER is accountable to an extent, i just don't care for people whose sole argument is that.
Seems like your in the middle, you know the importance of minutes/pace, league rates, to know that Wilt having a 50-25 season doesnt automatically mean hes having a better statistical season than anyone else to ever live, but you dont like PER suggesting it or people pointing to it.
I get that you dont like anyone using it as an end all, but the inventor of the stat doesnt even use it that way so thats really all you have to tell anyone whos trying to do so.

There is no definitive answer to these questions, there is always an air of subjectivity to them.

Im very curious, which of MJ's Regular season was his greatest? Statistically, subjectively, however you want to slice it.

basketfan4life
03-16-2012, 07:06 PM
Seems like your in the middle, you know the importance of minutes/pace, league rates, to know that Wilt having a 50-25 season doesnt automatically mean hes having a better statistical season than anyone else to ever live, but you dont like PER suggesting it or people pointing to it.
I get that you dont like anyone using it as an end all, but the inventor of the stat doesnt even use it that way so thats really all you have to tell anyone whos trying to do so.


Can't tell it better myself...
Also you are the poster i trust most in this site and gave me good answers about advanced stats before, i have one more question, is a player having 30 PER authomatically means that is better for his team than him having say 25 per? or it authomatically means he is more dominant?


Im very curious, which of MJ's Regular season was his greatest? Statistically, subjectively, however you want to slice it

i wan't lucky enough to watch MJ game by game, that is why i bolded "statistically" in my first post, so i can only speak statistically about it, 87-88 and 89 seasons are all freaky seasons and i can't seperate one from other(perhaps 89 just alittle bit better), but i never think a player putting that ridicuolus numbers going to lead a team to somewhere, so if i had to take one of MJ's seasons for my team, i'd go with 91... This is really a tough question.

Cfrey
05-02-2012, 08:59 PM
wiz khalifa changed his gang to lebron james or die

amos1er
05-02-2012, 09:05 PM
Seems like your in the middle, you know the importance of minutes/pace, league rates, to know that Wilt having a 50-25 season doesnt automatically mean hes having a better statistical season than anyone else to ever live, but you dont like PER suggesting it or people pointing to it.
I get that you dont like anyone using it as an end all, but the inventor of the stat doesnt even use it that way so thats really all you have to tell anyone whos trying to do so.

There is no definitive answer to these questions, there is always an air of subjectivity to them.

Im very curious, which of MJ's Regular season was his greatest? Statistically, subjectively, however you want to slice it.


Its a six way tie....every season he won a championship. The rest doesn't matter.

Cfrey
05-02-2012, 09:06 PM
false lol^

Avenged
05-02-2012, 09:15 PM
bumped.