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StealingSigns
03-01-2012, 12:52 AM
k guys, keep it on topic.

urban legend
03-01-2012, 03:49 AM
I heard the d'backs are looking for catching help. JPA+ for one of thier pitching prospects?

2009mvp
03-01-2012, 03:59 AM
Where'd you hear that? Aren't they still in talks to lock Montero up longterm?

KaiserSose
03-01-2012, 10:46 AM
Where'd you hear that? Aren't they still in talks to lock Montero up longterm?

According to MLBTR

http://www.mlbtraderumors.com/2012/02/nl-west-notes-diamondbacks-padres-fielder.html

https://twitter.com/#!/nickpiecoro/status/174954890580336640

TRIUMPHATOR
03-01-2012, 10:58 AM
I heard the d'backs are looking for catching help. JPA+ for one of thier pitching prospects?

And who would catch for us? And don't tell me TDA because although he will be herd eventually, you can't throw him to the wolves like that.

wagnall
03-01-2012, 04:04 PM
I'd be surprised if AA makes any trades for a while. I would think he wants to see what he has before exploring any moves. I would think if come TD if we know what we have , who actually is Solid in thier positions, he may be active.

North Yorker
03-01-2012, 08:13 PM
Grady out for a few months, while we have Rajai rotting on our bench.

Intriguing scenario?

CurlyAce
03-01-2012, 11:47 PM
How about seeing if the Giants have any interest in moving Brandon Belt? He's been badly mishandled by the Giants and currently doesn't seem to have position on the team. He still has a lot of upside and is still the young (23) and controllable player that AA likes to target. The Giants apparently are interested in give Buster Posey time at 1B in order to keep him healthy. This would move Belt back to LF where I believe he is a below average defender. Seems to me that Belt could be available for the right package in return. I'm not sure what it would take but an interesting proposition would be Snider straight up for Belt. The Giants would get a high upside LF who can actually play the position and the Jays get their 1B for the foreseeable future.

Just throwing the idea around in my head. I'm not sure if a Snider for Belt scenario even makes sense. However, we all know AA is a master of dealing so maybe a package of Thames + some prospect package could also be a possibility. The only thing I know is Lind at 1B isn't ideal and that we have a gluten of outfielders in the pipeline. Not only the competition of Thames and Snider but Gose and Marsnick are also creeping closer to the big leagues. Be interested in hearing your opinions.

wamco
03-01-2012, 11:56 PM
gonna cost a lot more than thames or snider for belt

CurlyAce
03-02-2012, 12:09 AM
gonna cost a lot more than thames or snider for belt
Would you be interested in obtaining him? Plus don't just say it's not enough if you are interested in having him on the team what would you offer for him if you were Alex? :)

2009mvp
03-02-2012, 12:30 AM
Trading for 1B prospects is such dangerous business. You really, really have to hit to have any kind of value at first. I mean obviously he'd be nice to have, but I do think the kind of package it would take to land Belt could be better used elsewhere.

2009mvp
03-02-2012, 12:32 AM
According to MLBTR

http://www.mlbtraderumors.com/2012/02/nl-west-notes-diamondbacks-padres-fielder.html

https://twitter.com/#!/nickpiecoro/status/174954890580336640

So they're looking for catching depth (presumably minor league depth)? They're obviously set at the big league level right now, not sure I see why they'd be interested in JPA.

craigerlee
03-02-2012, 12:40 AM
Trading for 1B prospects is such dangerous business. You really, really have to hit to have any kind of value at first. I mean obviously he'd be nice to have, but I do think the kind of package it would take to land Belt could be better used elsewhere.

I'm thinking Jose might be the 1B of the future, might as well let Lind and EE warm it for him. I think I'd rather go after a guy like Dom Brown over Belt for package containing Snider as I imagine he'd come much cheaper than Belt cause they really seem to hate him in Philly.

CurlyAce
03-02-2012, 12:46 AM
Trading for 1B prospects is such dangerous business. You really, really have to hit to have any kind of value at first. I mean obviously he'd be nice to have, but I do think the kind of package it would take to land Belt could be better used elsewhere.

Exactly my thoughts. You have to be really sold on Belt if you are going to make that deal. Last thing I want to see is us get burned like the astros did in the Wallace deal. I decided to tweet Klaw about it and he seems to think that Belt could still develop into an All Star but he doesn't think it's going to be with the Giants. Take from it what you want. As with all trades it ultimately comes down to what the Giants ask for in return for whether i'd make the deal.

CurlyAce
03-02-2012, 12:48 AM
I'm thinking Jose might be the 1B of the future, might as well let Lind and EE warm it for him. I think I'd rather go after a guy like Dom Brown over Belt for package containing Snider as I imagine he'd come much cheaper than Belt cause they really seem to hate him in Philly.

I was also pondering Dom Brown as a possible trade target. I'm just trying to think of all the high upside players either being blocked positionally or that have fallen out of favour with their respective club. I love adding talent any way you can. Can't get enough Rasmus/Escobar type deals. Dom Brown would certainly be an interesting project (I hear his mechanics need work) for the Jays to take on if he could be obtained for the right price.

urban legend
03-02-2012, 02:35 AM
I have seen the idea of trading JB throwing around a few times in the past yr or so. I personally think it would be a good idea to trade him. There is a chance we can make the playoffs this year..a small chance. I think we will either make it next season or the season after. If we trade him NOW when he is relativley young we could get a good package of mlb ready and soon to be ready players that would be help the team for many many years. Instead of 1 player that is a fan fav and on another level than the other players

wagnall
03-02-2012, 06:41 PM
I'm thinking Jose might be the 1B of the future, might as well let Lind and EE warm it for him. I think I'd rather go after a guy like Dom Brown over Belt for package containing Snider as I imagine he'd come much cheaper than Belt cause they really seem to hate him in Philly.


I'd like to see Bauts at 1st in a year or 2. But with all the OF'ers we have and coming up not sure we need to go out and get another one. Would love to see how Rasmus, Thames, Snider, Gose, and in a year or 2 Marsnick all shag out. If Gose is ready for 2013 and Rasmus has a good year, I would think we have enough guys to fill the OF and still move Bauts to 1st.
But, you can never have too much talent to choose from or use in trades.
Who knows, maybe AA is in on Soler? :):):)

wagnall
03-02-2012, 06:49 PM
I have seen the idea of trading JB throwing around a few times in the past yr or so. I personally think it would be a good idea to trade him. There is a chance we can make the playoffs this year..a small chance. I think we will either make it next season or the season after. If we trade him NOW when he is relativley young we could get a good package of mlb ready and soon to be ready players that would be help the team for many many years. Instead of 1 player that is a fan fav and on another level than the other players



We already have quite a few good young guys battling for positions and prospects to cover them coming up, and there's a group to follow them. Why trade your best hitter for prospects. No disrespect but I hope this idea of trading Bauts ends like the last thread on this did! :)

TRIUMPHATOR
03-03-2012, 12:43 PM
no idea why people would even entertain the idea of trading Bauts. We are building not rebuilding. We need to acquire not rid ourselves of talent.

wamco
03-03-2012, 01:16 PM
prince fielder would have gotten us pretty close to that 2nd wild card.

ILDD
03-04-2012, 11:57 AM
How about making a run for Gavin Floyd?

I read on the site that shall not be named that he could be in play for either Toronto or BoSox, he'd look very nice in the #2 or 3 spot.

He's making $7M in 2012 with a club option for $9.5M in 2013, pretty decent for a pitcher who project to be around 4.00 ERA with as many as 200 IP.

Fits nicely, here for a couple of years until (hopefully) the prospects arrive then probably brings back some draft picks if he leaves.

Only question is who would White Sox want? Maybe a high ceiling pitching prospect to go with Nestor Molina, maybe someone like Justin Nicolino or Noah Syndergaard?

North Yorker
03-04-2012, 01:03 PM
How about making a run for Gavin Floyd?

I read on the site that shall not be named that he could be in play for either Toronto or BoSox, he'd look very nice in the #2 or 3 spot.

He's making $7M in 2012 with a club option for $9.5M in 2013, pretty decent for a pitcher who project to be around 4.00 ERA with as many as 200 IP.

Fits nicely, here for a couple of years until (hopefully) the prospects arrive then probably brings back some draft picks if he leaves.

Only question is who would White Sox want? Maybe a high ceiling pitching prospect to go with Nestor Molina, maybe someone like Justin Nicolino or Noah Syndergaard?

I see AA staying pat until close to the TD. You never know who may become available. Maybe MIL stumbles out of the gate and decides to move Greinke, or when SEA is 10+games behind LAA and TEX 6 weeks in to the season they shed payroll and make Felix available.

If we are gonna move our specs I would rather do it for a possible top of the rotation arm rather than a #3, which we have a surplus of already.

nstojic
03-04-2012, 07:20 PM
This guy (This guy) is still available and just turned down a minor league offer from the Rangers because it didn't guarantee a major league salary/roster spot...

lefty specialist, anyone? :shrug:

es0terik
03-04-2012, 08:14 PM
Why don't the Jays target Billy Butler now that the Royals have Hosmer up there?

AA09-?
03-04-2012, 09:48 PM
Why don't the Jays target Billy Butler now that the Royals have Hosmer up there?

I completely agree. His OPS should go up in a hitters park and better lineup, too.

2009mvp
03-04-2012, 09:59 PM
Because he's a butcher in the field and the Royals do need a DH too.

AA09-?
03-04-2012, 10:01 PM
Because he's a butcher in the field and the Royals do need a DH too.

I'm sure there's an attractive package that could be put together that would put him in a Jays uni.

wamco
03-04-2012, 10:02 PM
why? the royals rebuilt their farm into a powerhouse and when the time is right, ownership will pump money into the team.

AA09-?
03-04-2012, 10:06 PM
why? the royals rebuilt their farm into a powerhouse and when the time is right, ownership will pump money into the team.

They've yet to produce much in the way of starting pitching.

2009mvp
03-04-2012, 10:12 PM
I'm sure there's an attractive package that could be put together that would put him in a Jays uni.

Attractive package for a relatively expensive DH? Pass.

Jamiecballer
03-04-2012, 10:16 PM
why? the royals rebuilt their farm into a powerhouse and when the time is right, ownership will pump money into the team.

sarcasm senses are tingling....

wamco
03-04-2012, 10:37 PM
I'd hope so...

damadmonk
03-05-2012, 09:21 AM
d'Arnaud
Drabek
Gose

for

Roy Halladay


http://articles.philly.com/2012-03-04/news/31121731_1_phillies-trades-catcher-travis-d-arnaud-shane-victorino

nstojic
03-05-2012, 09:43 AM
why? the Bluejays rebuilt their farm into a powerhouse and when the time is right, ownership will pump money into the team.

Fixed :D

AA09-?
03-05-2012, 10:55 AM
Attractive package for a relatively expensive DH? Pass.

I don't think 8 M per over the next 3 years is expensive considering what Butler can bring to the table, but that's JMO.

wamco
03-05-2012, 09:27 PM
exactly why kc wouldn't trade him

AA09-?
03-05-2012, 09:50 PM
exactly why kc wouldn't trade him

You gotta give to get and they desperately need starting pitching.

wamco
03-06-2012, 06:51 PM
or you could sign a free agent

JaysFan87
03-06-2012, 07:12 PM
or not.

wamco
03-06-2012, 07:31 PM
why are so many people impatient with KC's plan? Rebuilding takes time and they are doing it the right way. They don't need bloated free agent contracts. Fans of theirs that don't see that aren't real fans. It's not like it's easy to get players to play in KC and the GM puts a value on a player and if he doesn't see value in it, he doesn't go there.

Krylian
03-06-2012, 11:58 PM
why are so many people impatient with KC's plan? Rebuilding takes time and they are doing it the right way. They don't need bloated free agent contracts. Fans of theirs that don't see that aren't real fans. It's not like it's easy to get players to play in KC and the GM puts a value on a player and if he doesn't see value in it, he doesn't go there.

Damn right, brother!!

JaysFan87
03-07-2012, 01:57 AM
I suggest the moderators here create a thread for people who only complain about the direction of the team/rogers/minor leagues/life. That way people, who can objective look at a situation can be spared the constant whining that seems to have overtaken this place.

StealingSigns
03-07-2012, 02:14 AM
I suggest the moderators here create a thread for people who only complain about the direction of the team/rogers/minor leagues/life. That way people, who can objective look at a situation can be spared the constant whining that seems to have overtaken this place.

Unfortunately, you can't make them post in said thread...

Look, this is a forum for Jays fans, we sometimes (and often) will disagree. I may like the direction the team is taking, but I understand the frustration other posters are displaying.

19 years is a long time.
2 years is a short time.

2009mvp
03-07-2012, 02:30 AM
It's pretty funny seeing people whine about a certain poster yet respond to virtually every one of the posts they complain about. You've been here long enough to figure out how to work the ignore function, no? Otherwise everyone's got the right to be frustrated. Discussing the pros and cons of the way the team is being built is kinda what forums like this are for. Certainly sounds more interesting to some than ranking a bunch of teenagers based on what the internet says about em (no offense guys).

Krylian
03-07-2012, 08:12 AM
I'd much much rather do a prospect ranking then explain to chronic malcontents why the team is in the right direction. I already have 3 kids...I don't need any more.

wagnall
03-07-2012, 06:16 PM
See we signed Fernando Hernandez who hasn't pitched since 2008 with Oakland. Only 27, who is this guy and where has he been for 4 years?

town123
03-07-2012, 06:18 PM
See we signed Fernando Hernandez who hasn't pitched since 2008 with Oakland. Only 27, who is this guy and where has he been for 4 years?

Been in jail for being a PSD troll.

JaysFan87
03-07-2012, 07:19 PM
It's pretty funny seeing people whine about a certain poster yet respond to virtually every one of the posts they complain about. You've been here long enough to figure out how to work the ignore function, no? Otherwise everyone's got the right to be frustrated. Discussing the pros and cons of the way the team is being built is kinda what forums like this are for. Certainly sounds more interesting to some than ranking a bunch of teenagers based on what the internet says about em (no offense guys).

I'm not in favour of a bunch of vanilla posts about how great a team is. Im in favour of not having the same discussion over and over and over again. But w/e it wont start and it was a mistake that I even brought it up.

Billyen
03-08-2012, 10:26 PM
Been in jail for being a PSD troll.

Dam! You can go to jail for that?

:p

es0terik
03-09-2012, 12:36 AM
Dam! You can go to jail for that?

:p

I wish.

bartron_44
03-12-2012, 10:16 AM
What do you guys think of this:

http://www.torontosun.com/2012/03/11/jays-eyeing-an-arm


Blanton for Snider is what I am taking from that article........and I don't like that idea at all....

miller74
03-12-2012, 10:40 AM
Snider for Blanton better not happen

2009mvp
03-12-2012, 11:00 AM
Yeah I seriously doubt AA does that, makes sense to go after Blanton but unless the Phils eat the entire contract or something there's no reason to give up anything of value for him.

craigerlee
03-12-2012, 11:50 AM
I'm guessing Blanton is ours for free if we'd eat 6.5M of his contract. Don't think you'd have to give up Snider to get him. I'd send Snider their way if they'd be willing to send Dom Brown back our way.

2009mvp
03-12-2012, 03:07 PM
Sources: Blue Jays still pursuing Gavin Floyd
0 minutes ago by JonPaulMorosi
The Toronto Blue Jays have not given up their pursuit of Chicago White Sox right-hander Gavin Floyd, major-league sources told FOXSports.com.

http://mlbbuzz.yardbarker.com/blog/mlbbuzz/sources_blue_jays_still_pursuing_gavin_floyd/10291117

Good. Obviously the price was too high a few months ago, but if there's one thing we know about AA is that he's persistent. Hopefully they can work something out.

craigerlee
03-12-2012, 03:13 PM
http://mlbbuzz.yardbarker.com/blog/mlbbuzz/sources_blue_jays_still_pursuing_gavin_floyd/10291117

Good. Obviously the price was too high a few months ago, but if there's one thing we know about AA is that he's persistent. Hopefully they can work something out.

What does Gavin Floyd's wife's cousin have to say about this:
Twitter Douche (https://twitter.com/#!/brBoiler2013)

Nothing, then it must not be true since he's an insider and all.

The_Jet11
03-12-2012, 03:42 PM
just throwing this out there, but what about putting together a bigger deal for Floyd and Konerko? would obviously cost more, but would be an upgrade over EE, and Paulie and LInd could split time at 1B (to reduce wear and tear on both of them).

I'd start by offering up Drabek, EE, Thames/Snider? and Wojo .. although it would most likely take more...

our line-up would be dirty.

Escobar
Johnson
Bautista
Konerko
Lind
Lawrie
Rasmus
Snider/Thames
Arencibia

Rotation of

Romero
Morrow
Floyd
Cecil
Alvarez

Sanyo
03-12-2012, 05:16 PM
If rumors are out there, its not happening then...I think AA has this personal thing in that if the info is leaked he backs off...

StealingSigns
03-12-2012, 11:20 PM
If rumors are out there, its not happening then...I think AA has this personal thing in that if the info is leaked he backs off...

I'm not sure if I buy the notion that AA backs out when speculation is running rampant among the media. The Halladay trade was scooped by Ken Rosenthal well before it happened. It may well be that it was the Phillies camp that leaked it, but there was a precedent set here. If the deal makes sense, AA will follow through on it despite media speculation (as he should).

AA is masterful at keeping HIS cards hidden: he cannot control the other players at the poker table however.

Toxeryll
03-12-2012, 11:39 PM
I'm not sure if I buy the notion that AA backs out when speculation is running rampant among the media. The Halladay trade was scooped by Ken Rosenthal well before it happened. It may well be that it was the Phillies camp that leaked it, but there was a precedent set here. If the deal makes sense, AA will follow through on it despite media speculation (as he should).

AA is masterful at keeping HIS cards hidden: he cannot control the other players at the poker table however.

agreed, and i also remember the frasor and stewart deal to chicago was leaked the night before it happened.

jeremiah27
03-13-2012, 03:31 PM
If rumors are out there, its not happening then...I think AA has this personal thing in that if the info is leaked he backs off...

Huh? He didn't back off the Roy Halladay trade when every single sports media center in the US and Canada was reporting it.

idrinkpepsi
03-14-2012, 06:02 AM
I could see Blanton for like Cooper or something, some really.. really low end spec. This would be obviously because were eating all of his salary or most of it in a deal. Snider wouldn't make sense with Dom Brown already probably starting off at AAA, and doesn't make sense for us either.

ILDD
03-14-2012, 08:30 AM
I don't want Blanton but Phillies want some help in the infield, they have holes at 1B and 3B with Ryan Howard and Placido Polanco both being injury concerns.

Phillies are also looking to save some money so myabe a trade could be worked out where they get Encarnacion to fill their short-term needs and they send us Blanton plus a decent prospect.

They get someone to play 1B & fill in at 3B plus they save $5M.
We get a back of rotation starter plus a good prospect. Blanton would be gone after this year so he wouldn't block any of the prospects.

Personally I wouldn't do it but I can see the rationale behind it.


Now that I think more, maybe AA is thinking about making this sort of a trade and flipping the prospect along with a lower level spec from our system to Chicago for Gavin Floyd?

Jays Give EE, B prospect. Get Blanton, Floyd.
Phillies Give Blanton, B+ prospect. Get EE.
White Sox Give Floyd. Get B+ & B prospect

The_Jet11
03-14-2012, 09:08 AM
I'd do Edwin and a spec for Blanton. The money would be close, and it would allow us to carry Snider and Thames, while giving Rajai a chance to get more time. we'd end up heavy on LH sticks in the line-up, but I'm sure there's a solution out there.

wamco
03-14-2012, 09:17 AM
AA said he was done adding payroll for this season unless someone fell to them on a minor league contract. So i don't see how blanton or floyd would be traded here.

The_Jet11
03-14-2012, 09:19 AM
Vets like Derrek Lee, Vladimir Guererro, Miguel Tejada, and Magglio Ordonez are all still out there... I wonder if any of them could come close to replacing what Edwin would offer us? I would lean towards Lee because of his ability to play 1B, and decent season last year (similar to EE in fact).

I'm not a huge advocate of Blanton really, but he'd eat innings (and clear the club-house food spread!) and I think that Edwin isn't a long term piece.

I'd be happy to include him in a deal for Floyd too, if it meant we didn't have to give up a younger player with a higher ceiling.

Sanyo
03-14-2012, 10:55 AM
Huh? He didn't back off the Roy Halladay trade when every single sports media center in the US and Canada was reporting it.

a) He was still new in the role
b) Halladay trade had to be done, no other team was going to match what Philly was going to give. Halladay was the franchise, sometimes you need to be very open with trading your top player. Im sure you'd hear the rumors if Batista had already confirmed he wanted a trade.

How many of you knew Santos deal was going down? Rasmus? Gose? Was going to sign Cordero? Oliver? None, no one.

As you can see, AA has become much more secretive and strategic with his deals since...

Sanyo
03-14-2012, 11:01 AM
I'd do Edwin and a spec for Blanton. The money would be close, and it would allow us to carry Snider and Thames, while giving Rajai a chance to get more time. we'd end up heavy on LH sticks in the line-up, but I'm sure there's a solution out there.

I'm actually somewhat ok with this deal...Edwin is not a long-term solution though he would be more valuable for a playoff bound team and we've seen stupid trades during the deadline (Beltran for Wheeler -- ok Edwin wouldnt get something like Wheeler back, but even a decent prospect back I would think thats good for Edwin).

Shifty1 69
03-14-2012, 11:12 AM
Yep, keep depleting the major league roster for more unproven specs.

Best system in baseball potentially once some of the ridiculous arms get some more pro exposure, but lets add another B prospect to the 25 they have.

I disagree.:D

wagnall
03-14-2012, 04:35 PM
We just signed an infielder , 29 yr old Ruben Gotay who hasn't played since 2008. We just sign ed a pitcher who also hasn't played since 2008, but I was told he was in jail for PSD Trolling. :)

Wonder if these guys were cell mates.......:confused:

town123
03-14-2012, 05:23 PM
I'm actually somewhat ok with this deal...Edwin is not a long-term solution though he would be more valuable for a playoff bound team and we've seen stupid trades during the deadline (Beltran for Wheeler -- ok Edwin wouldnt get something like Wheeler back, but even a decent prospect back I would think thats good for Edwin).

I know Carnation Milk has been inconsistent and that I have been a big fan of his, but, the kid needs the AB's. He seems so much more comfortable with the Latin element on the team and his place on the club.

Predicting big things this year from the man.

Jamiecballer
03-16-2012, 09:21 AM
what is with this stupid "carnation milk"?

wamco
03-16-2012, 09:33 AM
en"carnacion"

es0terik
03-16-2012, 12:02 PM
what is with this stupid "carnation milk"?

Exactly my thought...

town123
03-16-2012, 03:03 PM
Carnation Milk. There I said it again.

What's with E5?....lol

DiPasquale7
03-17-2012, 02:10 AM
What's with E5?....lol

He plays 3rd and gets a ton of errors which is written as an "E5" if you score a baseball game

es0terik
03-17-2012, 04:03 AM
Yeah. E for Error, 5 for the third base position. When I first read it I always thought it was E5 for those 5 home runs he hit in like 3 games that one time a couple of years back. Then I saw his defense and kinda figured it out.

StealingSigns
03-17-2012, 08:05 AM
He will always be E5 to me, no matter where he is slotted in on the diamond.

jon32
03-17-2012, 09:47 AM
here I am thinkin E5 was E for Escobar and 5 for his number...............i was always confused as hell reading this forum think ppl were talkin about escobar when the play was EE`s

town123
03-17-2012, 10:00 AM
He plays 3rd and gets a ton of errors which is written as an "E5" if you score a baseball game

Um.... ya... got it thanks. And now what do you call him?

es0terik
03-17-2012, 01:29 PM
Still E5 LOL

StealingSigns
03-17-2012, 03:37 PM
^x2

Farsight
03-17-2012, 04:14 PM
One play i really wanted the jays to pursue was Beachy. With the plethora of arms the Braves have, he might be available for the right price as he is one of their older pitchers at the age 25... However, I think they would try and get rid of Hudson and Jair Jurrjens first. On a side note, it really boggles my mind to think that Beachy was an undrafted free agent, and was never signed out of college. Moreover, you have Hanson who was drafted in the 22 round... Atlanta has some very good scout

wamco
03-17-2012, 04:38 PM
minor wants out, make it happen. I think they'd rather peddel jar jar though

the_jon
03-17-2012, 05:36 PM
here I am thinkin E5 was E for Escobar and 5 for his number...............i was always confused as hell reading this forum think ppl were talkin about escobar when the play was EE`s
That sig is awsome :laugh2:

wamco
03-17-2012, 05:55 PM
buy pedro alvarez on the cheap. If nothing else, give him abs at dh next year, something pitt can't do.

es0terik
03-18-2012, 01:53 AM
I'd rather have Beachy than Minor. The guys I REALLY want are the Indian's Justin Masterson and the Athletics Brandon McCarthy but I doubt either of them cough either of them up. I also wouldn't mind Daniel Hudson from the Diamondbacks. I really don't see any of these teams letting go of any of these guys though.

Farsight
03-18-2012, 02:38 AM
I'd rather have Beachy than Minor. The guys I REALLY want are the Indian's Justin Masterson and the Athletics Brandon McCarthy but I doubt either of them cough either of them up. I also wouldn't mind Daniel Hudson from the Diamondbacks. I really don't see any of these teams letting go of any of these guys though. In Atlanta's position, they have an abundance of young, ready pitching, and sooner or later they will probably have to trade them to meet other needs... However, who they trade and their asking price? that will be a different story

es0terik
03-18-2012, 04:28 AM
Who they trade? Jair Jurrjens. Asking price? Too much.

statquo
03-18-2012, 05:40 AM
minor wants out, make it happen. I think they'd rather peddel jar jar though


mike minor?


1. not much better than prospects we have coming up
2. would cost too much in a trade
3. wouldn't want to play here
4. would get rocked in AL East.

thought he wasnt good wammer

wamco
03-18-2012, 09:02 AM
s ar c a s m homey

es0terik
03-18-2012, 02:41 PM
You made a four point post and it was all sarcasm? Yeah I'm sure... :rolleyes:

bartron_44
03-19-2012, 06:40 PM
I think we should try to trade a package of:

Thames
Jimenez
Sanchez
McGuire
Lind

for

Paul Konerko
Chris Sale

If KW would give us Santos for Molina straight up, he should be willing to part with Konerko and Sale for those 5 guys...or something close to that.

es0terik
03-19-2012, 07:58 PM
Uhh, you're overpaying. Konerko is getting old and Sanchez is one of the best pitching prospects we have. He's just underrated because nobody has made a bandwagon for him yet.

StealingSigns
03-19-2012, 09:16 PM
Uhh, you're overpaying. Konerko is getting old and Sanchez is one of the best pitching prospects we have. He's just underrated because nobody has made a bandwagon for him yet.

Umm, not for a lack of tryin' on my behalf.

He is our future ace.

StealingSigns
03-19-2012, 09:38 PM
Law thinks pretty highly of Sanchez.

http://insider.espn.go.com/mlb/blog?name=law_keith&action=login&appRedirect=http%3a%2f%2finsider.espn.go.com%2fmlb %2fblog%3fname%3dlaw_keith

as per Stoeten:

http://blogs.thescore.com/djf/2012/03/19/layin-down-even-more-law-minor-league-camp-notes/

Sanyo
03-20-2012, 01:05 AM
I like Chris Sale but not Paul Konkero at this point and not giving up two top pitching prospects.

Chris Sale I would love AA to try and get, I wouldnt even mind giving up someone like Drew Hutchison for him.

2009mvp
03-20-2012, 01:23 AM
Who says Sale even sticks as a starter? Even if he has the arsenal to start (debatable) he supposedly has a pretty violent delivery. I'm all for moving prospects to upgrade the big league club, but there's way too much risk and not all that much upside with Sale.

es0terik
03-20-2012, 01:32 AM
Umm, not for a lack of tryin' on my behalf.

He is our future ace.

:clap: I yearn for the days of Morrow, Syndergaard, Sanchez, Norris and Nicolino. Imagine if they all hit their ceilings. It gives me goosebumps. It would be like buying tickets for five different lotteries and hitting the jackpot on all five. It could be the best rotation in the majors.


Who says Sale even sticks as a starter? Even if he has the arsenal to start (debatable) he supposedly has a pretty violent delivery. I'm all for moving prospects to upgrade the big league club, but there's way too much risk and not all that much upside with Sale.

Exactly. It would be the opposite of the Molina for Santos deal.

Sanyo
03-20-2012, 01:33 AM
No one is saying Sale could be a starter but he would definitely be an asset -- though he did well with starting in college so you could try it out. No doubt his delivery is not the smoothest but it doesn't necessarily mean it will affect his longevity.

If not Hutch, you could try with someone else, but a good strong lefty at 22 years old who's already dominating major league level hitting is someone worth taking a shot with. Im sure AA has already inquired about Sale but I guess the price is just too high at the moment...

es0terik
03-20-2012, 01:34 AM
Law thinks pretty highly of Sanchez.

http://insider.espn.go.com/mlb/blog?name=law_keith&action=login&appRedirect=http%3a%2f%2finsider.espn.go.com%2fmlb %2fblog%3fname%3dlaw_keith

as per Stoeten:

http://blogs.thescore.com/djf/2012/03/19/layin-down-even-more-law-minor-league-camp-notes/

Boom. Law is such a hard grader and yet the guy has this to say per that article:


I spent Friday on the back fields at the Philadelphia Phillies' complex in Clearwater, Florida, for a matchup of two top pitching prospects as well as a few other prospects of note.

The Blue Jays' high-A roster started right-hander Aaron Sanchez, who was 92-96 with good life and very little effort, mostly working in the 94-96 range, showing good feel for a changeup but less for his slider. Sanchez has always produced easy velocity but his arm action is a little smoother now than it was in high school and his slot is slightly higher; he's also put on 10-15 pounds of good weight. I've always been a fan -- he's got great makeup and the delivery and body are what they're supposed to look like, but now that he's sitting in the mid-90s it's hard to offer any reasons for skepticism beyond the usual caveats on young pitchers.

Why the hell would you want to give that up lol.

BlueJayFanDan
03-20-2012, 05:18 AM
I'm not as high on Aaron Sanchez as some others, but there is no way I package a potential future number 1 or 2 in a deal for a 36 year old 1st baseman and a future closer, especially when we just got our future closer who was traded to make room for Sale as their closer.

KaiserSose
03-20-2012, 01:56 PM
Who says Sale even sticks as a starter? Even if he has the arsenal to start (debatable) he supposedly has a pretty violent delivery. I'm all for moving prospects to upgrade the big league club, but there's way too much risk and not all that much upside with Sale.

This^^^^

According to Law he has an awful arm action and will likely break down as a starter. Yet you guys want to give up a good young starter for him?

wagnall
03-20-2012, 03:12 PM
As much as I like Konerko, he's a tops 2 year band aide, then what. We would have to go out and get someone as we have no star 1st baseman waiting in the wings.
This is Linds LAST chance here, and I don't see how AA doesn't give him that last go. Can Lind add a good OBP to go with the power. I think he wants to see if Lind is capable anymore of doing that, then decisions?

ILDD
03-20-2012, 03:50 PM
To become a winner in the AL East you need star-level players, you get these via a combination of these 3 routes...

1. Sign big name star free agents
2. Have your prospects develop into stars
3. Trade your prospects for already developed stars

So far AA has been collecting prospects to facilitate option 2 and 3 with (presumably) Rogers ready to open the coffers and allow option 1 when we are "close to competing"

Trading for Konerko is none of these routes - he only ranked 7th in 1B wOBA last year and he's likely to regress, given his age. Don't trade for him.

I'm not against trading prospects but it needs to be for the right player and that player has to be a star with several good years ahead of him.

JermanJaysFan
03-20-2012, 04:23 PM
To become a winner in the AL East you need star-level players, you get these via a combination of these 3 routes...

1. Sign big name star free agents
2. Have your prospects develop into stars
3. Trade your prospects for already developed stars

So far AA has been collecting prospects to facilitate option 2 and 3 with (presumably) Rogers ready to open the coffers and allow option 1 when we are "close to competing"

Trading for Konerko is none of these routes - he only ranked 7th in 1B wOBA last year and he's likely to regress, given his age. Don't trade for him.

I'm not against trading prospects but it needs to be for the right player and that player has to be a star with several good years ahead of him.
On principle, I agree with you. However, I wouldn't mind Konerko on this team, but not for the ludicrous package suggested earlier. If it's deadline time, the Jays are kind of in a position to make a run, and the Sox are continuing the firesale, I'd take a chance on him. But I would never pay through the nose like this guy is suggesting.

Kak
03-20-2012, 07:35 PM
I keep looking at this thread but there's never a trade. WTF? The jays hardly ever make trades worth noting. And forget about releasing anybody. They get to big a stockpile they just add another team. They need to thin the herd and let some these players try and latch on to other teams and get another shot. Geez, frustrating

riderfan60
03-20-2012, 07:53 PM
I keep looking at this thread but there's never a trade. WTF? The jays hardly ever make trades worth noting. And forget about releasing anybody. They get to big a stockpile they just add another team. They need to thin the herd and let some these players try and latch on to other teams and get another shot. Geez, frustrating

You sir, are a very funny man!

Please continue the comic relief!

DVS
03-22-2012, 07:54 PM
I posted this on the Adam Lind thread that is getting action right now, then I realized I probably should've posted it here:

I know he has a 7.5mil contract this year and strikes out like crazy. But for conversation purposes and protection for Buatista (when he doesn't strikeout) what do you guys think about Mark Reynolds. (though I don't think his 7.5mil can be worked into the team budget this year.)

http://www.cbssports.com/mlb/blog/ey...-mark-reynolds

FYI personally I don't want him, just wanted to see what you guys thought, since a lot people have been upset about the lack of pursuit for Bautista's protection.

StealingSigns
03-22-2012, 08:46 PM
^ link isnt working

DVS
03-22-2012, 09:34 PM
Hopefully this works

http://www.cbssports.com/mlb/blog/eye-on-baseball/17970548/orioles-shopping-kevin-gregg-mark-reynolds

DVS
03-22-2012, 09:36 PM
^ ok works now. Sorry guys.

riderfan60
03-22-2012, 11:38 PM
I posted this on the Adam Lind thread that is getting action right now, then I realized I probably should've posted it here:

I know he has a 7.5mil contract this year and strikes out like crazy. But for conversation purposes and protection for Buatista (when he doesn't strikeout) what do you guys think about Mark Reynolds. (though I don't think his 7.5mil can be worked into the team budget this year.)

http://www.cbssports.com/mlb/blog/ey...-mark-reynolds

FYI personally I don't want him, just wanted to see what you guys thought, since a lot people have been upset about the lack of pursuit for Bautista's protection.

If you're going to put a rh bat in the 4 hole, you might as well go with EE until Lawrie's ready, which should be no later than June.

ILDD
03-23-2012, 07:37 AM
If you're going to put a rh bat in the 4 hole, you might as well go with EE until Lawrie's ready, which should be no later than June.

EE and Reynolds were pretty similar batters in 2011 and for their careers. I'd prefer EE for now, thanks.

wamco
03-23-2012, 09:14 AM
2 yr 10 M left on lind's contract with a 2M buyout after that. Not too expensive to use in a 1b platoon. 615 ops for career vs LHP. He must sit vs them or you are putting a JMac in the heart of the lineup.

EE: 847 career ops vs LHP

Ace Drivers
03-23-2012, 09:47 AM
If you're going to put a rh bat in the 4 hole, you might as well go with EE until Lawrie's ready, which should be no later than June.

EE, blah..yuck...no way, I would much rather have Mark Reynolds than EE...EE has never come close to 35+dingers over 162 games

That said, Reynolds only as a DH...he's maybe the one guy in the league who's defense is worse than EE...

On the flip side...do we really need a guy like that...we already hit a lot of HR's as a team...heck we have 7+ guys who can potentially hit 20+ HR's...in terms of hitters, what we really need are guys who get on base...high avg., walks a lot, can steal and lay down a bunt...Bautista is the only guy who scored more than 100 runs...and the next guy was in high 70's...we have power, we have RBI guys...what we don't have outside of Bautista is a guy who gets on base a lot...only three guys had an OPS of over .350 last year...and that's not great

wagnall
03-23-2012, 01:43 PM
Personally speaking, you could put Lind, EE or Reynolds in the 4 spot and they'll still walk Bauts to get to them. None of those are very scary to anyone. JMHO

wagnall
03-23-2012, 04:31 PM
:offtopic: On a side note, I guess its good we didn't go after Soria, out for the season, may need Tommy John. Too bad, hope he's able to get back.

town123
03-23-2012, 05:56 PM
Personally speaking, you could put Lind, EE or Reynolds in the 4 spot and they'll still walk Bauts to get to them. None of those are very scary to anyone. JMHO

Carnation Milk IMO is very scary. Glove ugh, bat yeah.... I know I'm beating a dead horse with this opinion.

wagnall
03-23-2012, 06:10 PM
Carnation Milk IMO is very scary. Glove ugh, bat yeah.... I know I'm beating a dead horse with this opinion.


You never know, EE has yet to put up a big bat year for the whole season, rather than a month here and a month there. BUT, he is 29 and needs to show up this year with that consistancy.
We have another guy who took till 29 to break out and turn into the best hitter in the league. Can lightening stike twice? We shall see! He will get alot of bats this year, time to shine..:)

StealingSigns
03-23-2012, 06:45 PM
E5 can be very scary at times.

He is scary with a glove in his hand all the time unless he is cemented to first base lol!

But, with the bat, he can be very scary. He is such a streaky hitter though. There are times during the season where he wins series seemingly all by himself. Then he cools down and is almost invisible. During those hot streaks though, he sure is fun to watch.

lexecutioner
03-23-2012, 11:34 PM
E5 can be very scary at times.

He is scary with a glove in his hand all the time unless he is cemented to first base lol!

But, with the bat, he can be very scary. He is such a streaky hitter though. There are times during the season where he wins series seemingly all by himself. Then he cools down and is almost invisible. During those hot streaks though, he sure is fun to watch.

nothing else to add. ;)

Billyen
03-23-2012, 11:37 PM
You never know, EE has yet to put up a big bat year for the whole season, rather than a month here and a month there. BUT, he is 29 and needs to show up this year with that consistancy.
We have another guy who took till 29 to break out and turn into the best hitter in the league. Can lightening stike twice? We shall see! He will get alot of bats this year, time to shine..:)

It's funny you say that.

I really, really dislike EE. I couldn't believe AA re-signed him. However, I got this feeling EE may brake out much the way Jose did this year. He's got the skill and can hit well for short periods. I think its mental with him. If he figures is out. Maybe 35hr+ and a .800OPS.

Iggy
03-24-2012, 03:55 PM
With Madson gone for the year perhaps Cncy would be interested in getting Cordero back.

Say Cordero + mid level pitching prospect for Hamilton?

town123
03-24-2012, 03:59 PM
With Madson gone for the year perhaps Cncy would be interested in getting Cordero back.

Say Cordero + mid level pitching prospect for Hamilton?

I would love it. The kid is nasty fast, slap happy and probably not going anywhere in a deal. Not sure who the Jays/Reds could agree on as the youngin' going to the Reds. Thoughts?

wagnall
03-24-2012, 04:11 PM
It's funny you say that.

I really, really dislike EE. I couldn't believe AA re-signed him. However, I got this feeling EE may brake out much the way Jose did this year. He's got the skill and can hit well for short periods. I think its mental with him. If he figures is out. Maybe 35hr+ and a .800OPS.


I'm not sure of the 35 HRS, last 2 years 38 combined and his AL stats at 260/320/446/781 gives me some concern. I'd be thrilled with a 270/340/480/800 with 25 hrs. That would just about be a career year for him.

And he's also fighting for a job for 2013, no better time to have a career year than this year. :)

wamco
03-24-2012, 04:50 PM
With Madson gone for the year perhaps Cncy would be interested in getting Cordero back.

Say Cordero + mid level pitching prospect for Hamilton?

can't trade a Free Agent until like June 1st

es0terik
03-24-2012, 06:21 PM
Last year around May when EE was slumping, I said that EE was only slumping because he was messed up psychologically from sucking so bad at 3B. When I said that he'd do much better if they gave him fulltime DH, everyone ridiculed and laughed at me and said 'No thanks, let's release him'. Sure enough when Farrell made him the full time DH, he started mashing and didn't stop. He's not a streaky hitter, he just gets phased mentally and carries over his field work to his at bats. If they keep him at DH, he will be just fine. All this talk of making him more versatile in the field and making him a utility player is really bugging me. You aren't going to try to make Lance Berkman or David Ortiz or Adam Dunn try and learn new positions. EE is a born DH, leave him like that.

town123
03-25-2012, 10:34 AM
Last year around May when EE was slumping, I said that EE was only slumping because he was messed up psychologically from sucking so bad at 3B. When I said that he'd do much better if they gave him fulltime DH, everyone ridiculed and laughed at me and said 'No thanks, let's release him'. Sure enough when Farrell made him the full time DH, he started mashing and didn't stop. He's not a streaky hitter, he just gets phased mentally and carries over his field work to his at bats. If they keep him at DH, he will be just fine. All this talk of making him more versatile in the field and making him a utility player is really bugging me. You aren't going to try to make Lance Berkman or David Ortiz or Adam Dunn try and learn new positions. EE is a born DH, leave him like that.

^^ I'm with you on this.

With Madson gone, any opinion on sending a RP and spec to Cinci for Billy Hamilton?

JermanJaysFan
03-25-2012, 11:33 AM
I love Billy Hamilton, but I don't think you get him for a RP and prospect, unless its a top-level prospect.

Twitchy
03-25-2012, 11:39 AM
Encarnacion has always been much better in the second half.

town123
03-25-2012, 12:05 PM
I love Billy Hamilton, but I don't think you get him for a RP and prospect, unless its a top-level prospect.

I doubt the Reds move Hamilton unless the deal really makes sense for them.

Just for arguments sake ....Cardona (or Jenkins) and Crouse?

town123
03-25-2012, 12:10 PM
Hmmm. Might have to add to that with Villanueva.

Kak
03-25-2012, 12:44 PM
......Still nothing......

2009mvp
03-25-2012, 01:35 PM
Last year around May when EE was slumping, I said that EE was only slumping because he was messed up psychologically from sucking so bad at 3B. When I said that he'd do much better if they gave him fulltime DH, everyone ridiculed and laughed at me and said 'No thanks, let's release him'. Sure enough when Farrell made him the full time DH, he started mashing and didn't stop. He's not a streaky hitter, he just gets phased mentally and carries over his field work to his at bats. If they keep him at DH, he will be just fine. All this talk of making him more versatile in the field and making him a utility player is really bugging me. You aren't going to try to make Lance Berkman or David Ortiz or Adam Dunn try and learn new positions. EE is a born DH, leave him like that.

Implying that he hit better last year as a DH than he did in past years at third? Cause that just isn't true.

wagnall
03-25-2012, 04:35 PM
Encarnacion has always been much better in the second half.

Thing is we need him in the 1st half as well when wins are just as important as in the second half. :)

es0terik
03-25-2012, 05:02 PM
Implying that he hit better last year as a DH than he did in past years at third? Cause that just isn't true.

Actually I wasn't implying that at all. I'm implying that his failures in the field last year were visibly impacting his mental game. This wasn't just noticeable on the player himself, Farrell actually admitted that EE was carrying his problems on the field into his at bats. Leaving him as a DH helped him focus on hitting alone without having to worry about going out and committing four errors in an inning. It's outstanding how often people treat these players like their cardboard figures. It's not just stats and numbers, psychology is a huge part of the game. Maybe his fielding didn't affect him before, last year it clearly did.

2009mvp
03-25-2012, 05:32 PM
It's funny you attack those that use stats and then turn around and present objective stuff like psychology as cold hard fact.

wamco
03-26-2012, 06:28 AM
adding him to your ignore list makes your time here much more enjoyable.

es0terik
03-27-2012, 02:46 AM
It's funny you attack those that use stats and then turn around and present objective stuff like psychology as cold hard fact.

I don't attack anybody, I'm against people that go 100% solely off stats, as I am with people that 100% go off intangibles. I'm sure I didn't imply otherwise, you only made that post to sound smart. Both things need to be considered when talking about a player and scouts will always talk about psychology as a huge factor in a player's game. You can't take one and leave out the other. If numbers were everything no scout would have a job.

craigerlee
03-27-2012, 09:46 AM
I don't attack anybody, I'm against people that go 100% solely off stats, as I am with people that 100% go off intangibles. I'm sure I didn't imply otherwise, you only made that post to sound smart. Both things need to be considered when talking about a player and scouts will always talk about psychology as a huge factor in a player's game. You can't take one and leave out the other. If numbers were everything no scout would have a job.

Were talking about the major leagues here where numbers are extremely important as they can be universally compared across leagues. Scouts have a much more minor role in major league talent evaluation. Its not like scouts can go and sit down with another mlb teams player and find out whether he's cuckoo or not. Do you really think the Jays had an opportunity to sit down with Escobar or Rasmus and find out where their heads were at before they traded for them? They traded for those guys because of their tools and the numbers they put up in the past.

The major role of a scout is evaluating tools and mechanics for prospects. The reason scouts can't just go on stats is cause stats can't be universally compared across NCAA conferences, high schools, minor league levels, etc. Sure they look for things like lazyness but I doubt they could tell whether if they moved a player to another position he'd have trouble hitting.

es0terik
03-27-2012, 10:38 AM
I guess my point is coming off different than how I mean for it to come off, so this is the last time I'm going to post about this. When I say scout I mean the general concept of scouting. Which means to say things like when last year Farrell said he thought EE was clearly phased by his errors in the field. The day he said that, he should have taken him OFF the field, which I don't think he did. I mean there's still a human element to the game. Numbers go 50% of the way and then it comes down to coaching and managing to make a player stay focused. Nobody can tell me that intangibles like psychology aren't absolutely huge factors in the game, look at guys like Votto (depression), Hamilton (alcohol), Rasmus and Hanley (no heart) and how their games are affected by those things. Yeah things on the field mean a lot, but so do the things off the field.

And Rasmus and Escobar are perfect examples. No the Jays didn't get to sit down with them but they assumed that the problem with their numbers had to do with intangibles like problems in the clubhouse. They assumed that they would be able to solve those problems and took a gamble. Those two names best epitomize my point here. If it was all about numbers, the Braves and Cardinals aren't stupid franchises to each give up one of their best players.

es0terik
03-27-2012, 11:01 AM
http://forums.prosportsdaily.com/showthread.php?t=707148

Maybe this'll sum it up.

craigerlee
03-27-2012, 11:03 AM
I guess my point is coming off different than how I mean for it to come off, so this is the last time I'm going to post about this. When I say scout I mean the general concept of scouting. Which means to say things like when last year Farrell said he thought EE was clearly phased by his errors in the field. The day he said that, he should have taken him OFF the field, which I don't think he did. I mean there's still a human element to the game. Numbers go 50% of the way and then it comes down to coaching and managing to make a player stay focused. Nobody can tell me that intangibles like psychology aren't absolutely huge factors in the game, look at guys like Votto (depression), Hamilton (alcohol), Rasmus and Hanley (no heart) and how their games are affected by those things. Yeah things on the field mean a lot, but so do the things off the field.

With EE he wasn't getting on the field because he was so bad at 3B and they couldn't DH him because of Rivera. I think that had as much to do with his struggles early, the fact he wasn't getting consistent at bats. I think its pretty naive to just conclude the reason he struggled in the first half was solely cause he was bringing his defense to the plate. He was a bad defender in Cinci and still put up pretty good offensive numbers there.


And Rasmus and Escobar are perfect examples. No the Jays didn't get to sit down with them but they assumed that the problem with their numbers had to do with intangibles like problems in the clubhouse. They assumed that they would be able to solve those problems and took a gamble. Those two names best epitomize my point here. If it was all about numbers, the Braves and Cardinals aren't stupid franchises to each give up one of their best players.



Those two teams were in pennant races and couldn't really sit around and hope Escobar and Rasmus solved their hitting issues, that's why those guys got traded. IMO the Jays pure and simply bought low on those guys and didn't really care about their attitudes, so to me it really doesn't epitomize your point.

2009mvp
03-27-2012, 11:50 AM
I guess my point is coming off different than how I mean for it to come off, so this is the last time I'm going to post about this. When I say scout I mean the general concept of scouting. Which means to say things like when last year Farrell said he thought EE was clearly phased by his errors in the field. The day he said that, he should have taken him OFF the field, which I don't think he did. I mean there's still a human element to the game. Numbers go 50% of the way and then it comes down to coaching and managing to make a player stay focused. Nobody can tell me that intangibles like psychology aren't absolutely huge factors in the game, look at guys like Votto (depression), Hamilton (alcohol), Rasmus and Hanley (no heart) and how their games are affected by those things. Yeah things on the field mean a lot, but so do the things off the field.

And Rasmus and Escobar are perfect examples. No the Jays didn't get to sit down with them but they assumed that the problem with their numbers had to do with intangibles like problems in the clubhouse. They assumed that they would be able to solve those problems and took a gamble. Those two names best epitomize my point here. If it was all about numbers, the Braves and Cardinals aren't stupid franchises to each give up one of their best players.



:laugh: That's fantastic



http://forums.prosportsdaily.com/showthread.php?t=707148

Maybe this'll sum it up.

How does an alcoholic who drank his way out of shape then ran into a ton of trouble with the law at all prove your point? You're comparing apples and oranges now.

JaysFan87
03-27-2012, 12:54 PM
I don't attack anybody, I'm against people that go 100% solely off stats, as I am with people that 100% go off intangibles. I'm sure I didn't imply otherwise, you only made that post to sound smart. Both things need to be considered when talking about a player and scouts will always talk about psychology as a huge factor in a player's game. You can't take one and leave out the other. If numbers were everything no scout would have a job.

Not true. A scouts job is to analyze the mechanics and the likelihood they can repeat those mechanics for years to come with low risk of injury adn high chance of success. In fact scouts especially in the minor leagues rely less on numbers as a whole. Obviously me, you and everyone here do not have teh knowledge scouts have so when they speak we listen, and rightly so. Intagiables are prolly 1% useful in the MLB. You either have teh skills to produce or you dont. They is no such thing as "outworking" someone along teh boards or "showing teh heart to win" in baseball. Not knocking hockey at all but baseball is 99% technique and skill and 1% heart....

JaysFan87
03-27-2012, 12:58 PM
I guess my point is coming off different than how I mean for it to come off, so this is the last time I'm going to post about this. When I say scout I mean the general concept of scouting. Which means to say things like when last year Farrell said he thought EE was clearly phased by his errors in the field. The day he said that, he should have taken him OFF the field, which I don't think he did. I mean there's still a human element to the game. Numbers go 50% of the way and then it comes down to coaching and managing to make a player stay focused. Nobody can tell me that intangibles like psychology aren't absolutely huge factors in the game, look at guys like Votto (depression), Hamilton (alcohol), Rasmus and Hanley (no heart) and how their games are affected by those things. Yeah things on the field mean a lot, but so do the things off the field.

And Rasmus and Escobar are perfect examples. No the Jays didn't get to sit down with them but they assumed that the problem with their numbers had to do with intangibles like problems in the clubhouse. They assumed that they would be able to solve those problems and took a gamble. Those two names best epitomize my point here. If it was all about numbers, the Braves and Cardinals aren't stupid franchises to each give up one of their best players.




"Heart" wins games, skills dont....:facepalm:

es0terik
03-27-2012, 04:29 PM
You get what I mean... A guy that isn't motivated and doesn't care isn't going to play like an MVP.

jon32
03-27-2012, 05:21 PM
Lol, I dont get how you guys dont get Esoteriks point. Both of your guys points are true tho haha scouts looks into all the above....some more than others tho

es0terik
03-27-2012, 05:32 PM
Lol, I dont get how you guys dont get Esoteriks point. Both of your guys points are true tho haha scouts looks into all the above....some more than others tho

A lot of posters on this forum ignore the bulk of your post and try to act smart by nitpicking little things. It's fine though, like I said, I'm done talking about this so I'm just gonna drop it. This is why I didn't post in the 'Trade Idea' threads for a while, I try to stay away from them. They all end up with useless and fruitless debates about garbage.

2009mvp
03-27-2012, 05:47 PM
I guess my point is coming off different than how I mean for it to come off, so this is the last time I'm going to post about this. When I say scout I mean the general concept of scouting. Which means to say things like when last year Farrell said he thought EE was clearly phased by his errors in the field. The day he said that, he should have taken him OFF the field, which I don't think he did. I mean there's still a human element to the game. Numbers go 50% of the way and then it comes down to coaching and managing to make a player stay focused.

Awesome made up stat! I think the word you're looking for is 'talent,' since numbers (aka analysis) and coaching are completely different things done by completely different sets of people.


Nobody can tell me that intangibles like psychology aren't absolutely huge factors in the game, look at guys like Votto (depression)

MVP


, Hamilton (alcohol),

MVP


Rasmus

Elite CF in 2010


and Hanley (no heart)

Right there with Pujols as best player in the game over the 5 years prior to last. Of course most would chalk up his struggles last year to a shoulder injury rather than lack of heart, but you're probably right, if he had the heart of John McDonald he'd probably put up consecutive 7+ WAR seasons (wait you mean he actually already did that?!?).


and how their games are affected by those things. Yeah things on the field mean a lot, but so do the things off the field.

This is what I mean about apples and oranges. Alcohol and depression kept Hamilton and Votto off the field, once they were back on the field talent overruled everything else. Tying this all back to EE, comparing making a few errors at third and a serious addiction is quite frankly ridiculous.


And Rasmus and Escobar are perfect examples. No the Jays didn't get to sit down with them but they assumed that the problem with their numbers had to do with intangibles like problems in the clubhouse. They assumed that they would be able to solve those problems and took a gamble. Those two names best epitomize my point here. If it was all about numbers, the Braves and Cardinals aren't stupid franchises to each give up one of their best players.

Cool, might be true if they both hadn't already had fantastic seasons in Atlanta and St. Louis respectively. How come the intangibles didn't weigh them down then?


A lot of posters on this forum ignore the bulk of your post and try to act smart by nitpicking little things. It's fine though, like I said, I'm done talking about this so I'm just gonna drop it. This is why I didn't post in the 'Trade Idea' threads for a while, I try to stay away from them. They all end up with useless and fruitless debates about garbage.

:laugh2: You're right, you're so above us. I envy your brilliance, making a bull**** 'told ya so' post about EE then raising your chin at the rest of us when you get called for it. You win.

Kenny Powders
03-27-2012, 09:04 PM
Now this may make look like a hypocrite, but would anyone do a trade centred around Snider and Smoak. May solve our 1B issue and we are dealing from a position of strength.

North Yorker
04-02-2012, 09:15 AM
Not really a trade idea but I was just looking at our projected payroll for the next few years...
https://spreadsheets.google.com/pub?key=tlGuOwsSqqOBS4H6hAg-Q_Q&output=html

We have only $51.8M committed for next year + Arbitration raises+ let's say another $6-7M to fill out the BP, so let's say we sit at around $64M... If Hech could replace KJ in the lineup next year, then that would really open us up financially to add a middle of the order bat.

This brings me to Josh Hamilton. We are at ~$80M on this year's payroll, and if we compete this year for a playoff spot, perhaps they bump it up a couple more million. Hamilton may be the only high profile FA that may take less than a 6 yr deal because his injury issues=likely DH candidate down the road=AL team is his most likely destination. He's also 31, so a 5 yr deal where we overpay a bit could be doable.

If AA and Beeston stay true to their word on 5 yr deals, then we arent getting Cain/Hamels or Votto the next year.

Hamilton will be 31, could play OF for a year until Gose is ready, and then shift to DH/1B, with some time in LF mixed in.

Would be the perfect #4 Lefty to protect Bautista..

2013 lineup: Escobar(2B)/Rasmus(CF or LF)/Bautista(1B)/Hamilton(CF or LF)/Lawrie(3B)/Snider(RF)/D'Arnaud(C)/Thames (DH)/Hech(SS)

with Gose waiting in the wings, as well as Hutch and McGuire being placed in the back of the rotation.

wamco
04-02-2012, 09:40 AM
coaching clearly accounts for close to 50 percent of wins, how do you guys not see that?

Ragin' Cajun
04-02-2012, 12:19 PM
Now this may make look like a hypocrite, but would anyone do a trade centred around Snider and Smoak. May solve our 1B issue and we are dealing from a position of strength.

I would make this trade. Smoak could be a nice addition with power and is a switch hitter. He has lots of potential, it couldn't hurt to bring him in and then look to move Lind maybe next year or this year in a deal for a starting pitcher if it is needed.

wamco
04-02-2012, 10:14 PM
Jon Cook (Research in Motion)
Please rank these 3 based on Ceiling. Neil Ramirez, Drew Hutchison and Nestor Molina.
Klaw
My top 100 (which included the first two but not Molina) is based primarily on ceiling, with probability a secondary factor, so you should always look there first for questions like this. Molina’s either a back-end starter or reliever so he’s not really in this discussion. [The shorter answer is, of course, Hutchison, who was more than 50 spots ahead of Ramirez in the 100.]

Cognitive Dissonance (Dorsal Anterior Cingulate Cortex)
Help! Blue Jays pick Eric Thames over Travis Snider. Signed Dustin McGowan to a two-year, $3 million. Can I still believe Alex Anthopoulos as Wunderkind narrative? Or is being nice to players the marker inefficiency?
Klaw
I know everything thinks silent AA is a ninja … but neither of those moves made much sense to me. Mcgowan’s injury history should preclude any discussion of a multi-year deal.

Robert (London)
If Henderson Alvarez was eligible, would he have made your top 100 list?
Klaw
He made it last year, and he didn’t do anything to disappoint in 2011, so…

Steve (San Jose)
Looks like my HS teammate Eric Thames won the starting job in LF for Toronto. I know you’ve always seen him as an extra OF — so do you think he lasts the year as a starter? Is .270/.340/.470 with 15 HR or so attainable?
Klaw
I’m not sure how that split line comes to be, but I see a below-average defender who only hits fastballs, not an everyday guy.

aaron (boston)
Any prospects outside your top 100 receiving significant rave reviews?
Klaw
Austin Hedges would be one – and I’ll say again I screwed up by omitting him. Kiley saw Syndergaard throw really well earlier this week. Heard good things on my Cleveland sleeper, Ronny Rodriguez.

Ryan (Fredericton)
RE: David Cooper… everyone knows he has no power, but do you think he could hit .310+ in the majors?
Klaw
I do not.

Me (Where I am )
Do you expect Brett Lawrie to exploid into a Ryan Braun type breakout or are the expectations based on last years small sample overblown on him?
Klaw
I think he’ll be a star, and fairly soon, but last year has created unreasonable expectations.

@ryanpicks (Freddy Beach)
D’Arnaud + McGuire for Hosmer … who says no first?
Klaw
The Royals, with a long list of choice profanities.

Joshua (Vancouver)
Do you see Adonys Cardona as a guy that could be on the top 100 in 2013 or am I rushing things a bit? I believe it was you who said they wouldn’t be surprised if he hit 100 at some point.
Klaw
Maybe for 2014, but yes, real upside guy, he’ll get to triple digits at some point.

lexecutioner
04-03-2012, 09:07 AM
Nice dig Wamco. :)

Iggy
04-04-2012, 04:07 PM
Maybe the Jays should trade for John Lannan ...

Washingotn just optioned him to the minors. He is making $5M for 2012 and then is eligible for arbritration. I would assume the Jays would not have to give up much if any prospects.

BlueJayFanDan
04-05-2012, 07:15 AM
Maybe the Jays should trade for John Lannan ...

Washingotn just optioned him to the minors. He is making $5M for 2012 and then is eligible for arbritration. I would assume the Jays would not have to give up much if any prospects.

Crossed my mind too. He has demanded a trade. He would come cheap and is a decent 5th starter or perhaps long reliever. If we were willing to take a chance on Jo-Jo Reyes, I don't know how we could say no to Lannan who is far superior in every way. He wont strike a lot of guys out, but he can eat innings. If AA wants to make an offer, I am not opposed one bit.

2009mvp
04-05-2012, 11:23 AM
Don't we already have a ******, soft-tossing lefty named John in AAA? I'm all for an upgrade at the back the rotation, but Lannan ain't that.

Kelly Gruber
04-05-2012, 11:37 AM
Don't we already have a ******, soft-tossing lefty named John in AAA? I'm all for an upgrade at the back the rotation, but Lannan ain't that.

You don't see John Lannan as an upgrade over Drabek and Carreno? He's pitched 750 big league innings, with moderate success on a terrible team, we don't have anyone named John (or anything else) that's done that waiting around. He's no ace and never will be, but the guy is a serviceable back-end starter and would clearly be an upgrade over what we're going with heading into the season... It's not alway about throwing 100 MPH...

MrForever
04-05-2012, 11:47 AM
You don't see John Lannan as an upgrade over Drabek and Carreno? He's pitched 750 big league innings, with moderate success on a terrible team, we don't have anyone named John (or anything else) that's done that waiting around. He's no ace and never will be, but the guy is a serviceable back-end starter and would clearly be an upgrade over what we're going with heading into the season... It's not alway about throwing 100 MPH...

Is the team really trying tow win now? Or is it developing its prospects and giving its young arms a shot with the bigs?

wamco
04-05-2012, 11:48 AM
Lol, I dont get how you guys dont get Esoteriks point. Both of your guys points are true tho haha scouts looks into all the above....some more than others tho

you must be one of his friends from his boogereaters, i mean wrestling forums.

2009mvp
04-05-2012, 11:53 AM
You don't see John Lannan as an upgrade over Drabek and Carreno? He's pitched 750 big league innings, with moderate success on a terrible team, we don't have anyone named John (or anything else) that's done that waiting around. He's no ace and never will be, but the guy is a serviceable back-end starter and would clearly be an upgrade over what we're going with heading into the season... It's not alway about throwing 100 MPH...

He's at best a marginal upgrade over Laffey, and neither are even replacement level pitchers. That damn sure isn't worth $5M.

Kelly Gruber
04-05-2012, 11:56 AM
Is the team really trying tow win now? Or is it developing its prospects and giving its young arms a shot with the bigs?

Lannan is like 28 first of all, second of all, there's a difference between giving prospects a chance and throwing them to the wolves. If Romero or Morrow go down, we'd officially be throwing them to the wolves at this point.

It's sexy to have young players in the rotation, but you have to be careful as you can easily ruin a young pitchers confidence if you're not.

2009mvp
04-05-2012, 12:05 PM
Think of the opportunity cost too. You don't want to replace Drabek/Carreno/McGowan with an inning eating scrub, right? Stashing him in AAA is exactly why he's whining in Washington right now. I totally agree you don't want to be forced into rushing guys because of injury and whatnot, which is exactly why Laffey is a good fit. He stays down in Vegas if needed and later in the year you can reevaluate the kids. Anyways, I don't think spot starting guys like Jenkins, Carreno and perhaps even McGuire would be rushing them at this point.

Eagles4Lyfe
04-05-2012, 12:16 PM
Ive said it a million times and one more time won't hurt I wish we can pursue Josh Johnson. Love his arsenal and he'd thrive in Toronto

Kelly Gruber
04-05-2012, 12:23 PM
He's at best a marginal upgrade over Laffey, and neither are even replacement level pitchers. That damn sure isn't worth $5M.

You can't actually beleive this? Lannan had 3.70 ERA/4.28 FIP in 184 IP last year in Washington, over 400 more innings pitched over Laffey at about the same age and he's a marginal upgrade? "At best"? He's a serviceable MLB pitcher that has had some decent years on bad teams in Washington. Laffey is a journeyman releiver at this point. They're not even in the same league right now.

There are a lot worse pitchers out there. Even though he is Lannan is 38-51 in his career, he posted a respectable 3.70 ERA last season and has had a 3.91 or lower ERA in three of his four full seasons. He has been a good player in Washington, where he once was labeled the No. 1 starter by default. He'd be a serviceable fourth or fifth starter for many teams including ours.

He'd come cheap and is only signed this year.

Kelly Gruber
04-05-2012, 12:27 PM
Personally I just don't see it to be prudent to go with 3 spots of question marks... Drabek, Alvarez, McGowan, Carreno and Laffey are all question marks...

Romero
Morrow
*???
Lannan
*???

Makes a lot more sense to me than throwing a bunch of lottery tickets in the rotation...

2009mvp
04-05-2012, 12:49 PM
You can't actually beleive this? Lannan had 3.70 ERA/4.28 FIP in 184 IP last year in Washington, over 400 more innings pitched over Laffey at about the same age and he's a marginal upgrade? "At best"? He's a serviceable MLB pitcher that has had some decent years on bad teams in Washington. Laffey is a journeyman releiver at this point. They're not even in the same league right now.

There are a lot worse pitchers out there. Even though he is Lannan is 38-51 in his career, he posted a respectable 3.70 ERA last season and has had a 3.91 or lower ERA in three of his four full seasons. He has been a good player in Washington, where he once was labeled the No. 1 starter by default. He'd be a serviceable fourth or fifth starter for many teams including ours.

He'd come cheap and is only signed this year.

And that differential tells you...?

On their careers:

4.46 K/9, 3.59 BB/9, 51.1 GB%, 4.34 ERA/4.49 FIP/4.76 xFIP

4.71 K/9, 3.38 BB/9, 52.8 GB%, 4.00 ERA/4.61 FIP/4.45 xFIP

They're the same (crappy) pitcher.

Kelly Gruber
04-05-2012, 02:20 PM
And that differential tells you...?

On their careers:

4.46 K/9, 3.59 BB/9, 51.1 GB%, 4.34 ERA/4.49 FIP/4.76 xFIP

4.71 K/9, 3.38 BB/9, 52.8 GB%, 4.00 ERA/4.61 FIP/4.45 xFIP

They're the same (crappy) pitcher.

I'd say more like average, and Lannan has done it for about 400 more innings than Laffey...

treeleaf
04-05-2012, 03:13 PM
Masterson is dealing today :mad:

wamco
04-05-2012, 04:08 PM
ya, lannan and laffey aren't in the same class.

craigerlee
04-05-2012, 11:51 PM
And that differential tells you...?

On their careers:

4.46 K/9, 3.59 BB/9, 51.1 GB%, 4.34 ERA/4.49 FIP/4.76 xFIP

4.71 K/9, 3.38 BB/9, 52.8 GB%, 4.00 ERA/4.61 FIP/4.45 xFIP

They're the same (crappy) pitcher.
Really thought you were pulling that out of your *** when you said marginal upgrade, but those numbers are startling. Never knew Lannan was that bad.

I'd say more like average, and Lannan has done it for about 400 more innings than Laffey...
400 more innings of 4/3 K/BB ratio makes it all the worse, in the NL no less. You get at least 1K a game from the pitcher spot. The fact he barely strikes out more batters than he walks should tell you that you don't wan't this guy. Especially for 5M.

BlueJayFanDan
04-06-2012, 06:49 AM
I cant believe anyone in here would be against giving John Lannan a shot if he came at a low price. Honestly, I love our pitchers, but an inning eater who is a solid pitcher like Lannan is a better option than Drabek, who got destroyed at every level last season, Alvarez, who as much as I love, has not proven anything yet, McGowan, who is generally always injured, Cecil, who I love but is not even good enough to make it right now. Lannan would be the 3rd best pitcher on our team right now. Or at least the safest bet to be number 3. Until we have a starting 5 who we can definitively say everyone belongs, no one like Lannan should be considered a bad option.

StayOnBoard
04-06-2012, 08:35 AM
I cant believe anyone in here would be against giving John Lannan a shot if he came at a low price. Honestly, I love our pitchers, but an inning eater who is a solid pitcher like Lannan is a better option than Drabek, who got destroyed at every level last season, Alvarez, who as much as I love, has not proven anything yet, McGowan, who is generally always injured, Cecil, who I love but is not even good enough to make it right now. Lannan would be the 3rd best pitcher on our team right now. Or at least the safest bet to be number 3. Until we have a starting 5 who we can definitively say everyone belongs, no one like Lannan should be considered a bad option.

Fully agree - though, I also remember people here telling me this time last year after I suggested trading for Tyler Clippard that I was crazy because he "wasn't that good". Funny what a difference one year makes....

So - take everything with a grain of salt. If we could get Lannan for a low prospect and have the Nationals pay half his salary I'd be all for plugging him into the 5 spot to at least give him a shot. I don't expect much, and I admit he's not a great pitcher or anything but he's sure an upgrade over McGowan or Cecil. I still don't understand that extension we just gave McGowan when the guy can't seem to stay on the field. I know it was low money but still, probably could have done that closer to years end for the same price.

Twitchy
04-06-2012, 08:47 AM
Fully agree - though, I also remember people here telling me this time last year after I suggested trading for Tyler Clippard that I was crazy because he "wasn't that good". Funny what a difference one year makes....

I don't think anybody would have told you Clippard wasn't good as of last year. They might have said what you're trying to give up is crazy, and Clippard wasn't good enough to receive that type of return.

And there's a world of difference between a quality reliever in Clippard and a lucky son of a ***** in John Lannan. Soft tossing lefties with no control and an inability to strike out hitters are a recipe for disaster in the AL East. He's basically Joe Saunders.

craigerlee
04-06-2012, 09:05 AM
How is Lannan an innings eater anyways, he only pitched 184 innings in 33 starts last year? The guy struggled to get through the 5th. Heck if this guys an innings eater, what is Jeremy Guthrie? An Ace?

ah nuts
04-06-2012, 11:22 AM
I don't think anybody would have told you Clippard wasn't good as of last year. They might have said what you're trying to give up is crazy, and Clippard wasn't good enough to receive that type of return.

And there's a world of difference between a quality reliever in Clippard and a lucky son of a ***** in John Lannan. Soft tossing lefties with no control and an inability to strike out hitters are a recipe for disaster in the AL East. He's basically Joe Saunders.

x2

in the AL east, they will always be super vulnerable to those 5 run innings in the east for those random innings they lose control... game lost.

JaysFan87
04-06-2012, 12:40 PM
Maybe the Jays should trade for John Lannan ...

Washingotn just optioned him to the minors. He is making $5M for 2012 and then is eligible for arbritration. I would assume the Jays would not have to give up much if any prospects.

why? he is a bottom of a rotation guy with no upside. Stuff is not great, doesnt get K's, far from a control guy. Whats the upside?

Sanyo
04-06-2012, 12:43 PM
No to Lannan.

No explanation needed.

No. No. No.

JaysFan87
04-06-2012, 12:46 PM
Personally I just don't see it to be prudent to go with 3 spots of question marks... Drabek, Alvarez, McGowan, Carreno and Laffey are all question marks...

Romero
Morrow
*???
Lannan
*???

Makes a lot more sense to me than throwing a bunch of lottery tickets in the rotation...

i do. THis is what building a team mean. giving chances to your young rotation. At this point next you are going to have to find out at what level Drabek, McGowan, Alvarez, Hutchison, McGuire, Jenkins can pitcher. All those guys have significantly more upside than Lannan. Even if 2 of tose guys catch and you add them to the rotation with Romero and a hopefully improved Morrow and you have a pretty good rotation. THe question is do u really want to pay in dollars adn prospects (even one) for a 5th man in your rotation?

bartron_44
04-06-2012, 05:21 PM
There is nothing wrong with our rotation.Carreno probably only needs to make 1 start, so he isn't much of a gamble. However, he also pitch pretty darn well out of the bullpen last year, and has racked up the K's in the minor leagues as a starter. I am anxious to see this new improved change up, and what hitters do to him the second and 3rd times around in a ballgame. He did very well when he only needed to get 3 outs. Getting 21 (or even 18) is an entirely different challenge.

When you look at replacements for the rotation, you can't forget about Villanueva and Perez. They are also both throwing the ball very well this year. If Drabek or McGowan struggle, I would rather see Perez get a shot over Cecil. Besides Cecil though, we also have Hutch, McGuire and Jenkins, so we have plenty of arms to get us through 162 games.

I think Morrow and Alvarez are both going to have good seasons though. Morrow has been the good Morrow pretty much all spring, and Alvarez has a silly amount of potential and should not be overlooked. He has a devastating sinker with elite velocity ,a great change up, and he is still 21 years old (for a couple more weeks ...:) ).

StayOnBoard
04-06-2012, 10:03 PM
I don't think anybody would have told you Clippard wasn't good as of last year. They might have said what you're trying to give up is crazy, and Clippard wasn't good enough to receive that type of return.

And there's a world of difference between a quality reliever in Clippard and a lucky son of a ***** in John Lannan. Soft tossing lefties with no control and an inability to strike out hitters are a recipe for disaster in the AL East. He's basically Joe Saunders.

No - I honestly didn't even give suggestions on who we would trade because it didnt get to that point, I was already basically thrown out of the thread for "posting something so stupid". I was told, and I'm sorry I don't remember the exact phase but it went something like "Tyler Clippard isn't that good and you're wasting an asset trading for a medocre setup man". So yes, the first part of your post is absolutely 100% dead wrong.

I'm sure the poster here knows who he is, but I'm not throwing anyone under the bus. Anyways, I'm just saying a year makes a huge difference - and Lannan is probably a better choice than McGowan. Personally if I had my way I wouldn't be starting either of them.... I'd give one of our kids from AA/AAA a shot first - I just don't think it's such an outlandish idea if the Nats are paying half his salary and assuming we're giving up a prospect that most of us aren't even worried about losing. Im not really a huge Lannan fan either - his stats are underwhelming at best - but it's at least worth the discussion IMO.

Twitchy
04-06-2012, 10:45 PM
No - I honestly didn't even give suggestions on who we would trade because it didnt get to that point, I was already basically thrown out of the thread for "posting something so stupid". I was told, and I'm sorry I don't remember the exact phase but it went something like "Tyler Clippard isn't that good and you're wasting an asset trading for a medocre setup man". So yes, the first part of your post is absolutely 100% dead wrong.

If you say so. I can't really argue this without seeing the original post, and I'm hoping I didn't say it. A year wouldn't have made much difference in this case though. Not like he had a breakout year in 2011.


I'm sure the poster here knows who he is, but I'm not throwing anyone under the bus. Hint: He posted on the last page and is completely NOT in favor of getting Lannan (which btw - Im not really either). Should be pretty obvious.... anyways, I'm just saying a year makes a huge difference - and Lannan is probably a better choice than McGowan. Personally if I had my way I wouldn't be starting either of them.... I'd give one of our kids from AA/AAA a shot first - I just don't think it's such an outlandish idea if the Nats are paying half his salary and assuming we're giving up a prospect that most of us aren't even worried about losing.

Lannan's a better choice than McGowan in that Lannan still has his arm attached to his body. As far as actually pitching, I'd agree, I wouldn't want him starting.

I wouldn't give up anything of value to a guy who walks nearly as many as he strikes out, because you could probably grab a guy off the street to do the exact same thing.

StayOnBoard
04-06-2012, 10:50 PM
If you say so. I can't really argue this without seeing the original post, and I'm hoping I didn't say it. A year wouldn't have made much difference in this case though. Not like he had a breakout year in 2011.

It wasn't you :) Though, he's generally what I'd consider a "smart" poster.


Lannan's a better choice than McGowan in that Lannan still has his arm attached to his body. As far as actually pitching, I'd agree, I wouldn't want him starting.

I wouldn't give up anything of value to a guy who walks nearly as many as he strikes out, because you could probably grab a guy off the street to do the exact same thing.

I wouldn't give up anything of value either - but I don't think anyone who's on board trading for Lannan really wants to trade anyone of value for him. I mean, if we can trade a David Cooper type player and have the Nationals pay half of his base salary then that's something I'm on board with. Im just saying, we shouldn't completely dismiss the idea - a month ago all I read was how everyone hates our pitching staff and how almost anyone is an upgrade. While I don't think Lannan is a good pitcher he can at least eat up some innings - despite likely having an ERA in the 4's and having an absolutely terrible k/BB ratio.

ILDD
04-07-2012, 10:10 AM
I can only see AA trading for a player if the encumbant player is failing and there isn't a prospect waiting in the wings. The only position I can think of that is likely to fulfill these criteria is 1B. Sure, Johnson could have a bad year but Hechavarria is wiating to come up. Rasmus would be replaced by Gose/Marisnick. Any SP has many, many pitchers just snapping at his heels for a shot.

If Adam Lind fails again this year, how much would Kansas City want for Eric Hosmer or Billy Butler? Both young (22 & 25), solid offensive players (career OPS 0.799 and 0.816) and at least partially blocking each other at the 1B/DH position.

Hosmer would be more expensive in terms of prospects but also looks a better player with more years of control.

Kansas have needs at C and SP, areas that Toronto have strength so surely there's a match somewhere there?

JaysFan87
04-07-2012, 11:17 AM
I can only see AA trading for a player if the encumbant player is failing and there isn't a prospect waiting in the wings. The only position I can think of that is likely to fulfill these criteria is 1B. Sure, Johnson could have a bad year but Hechavarria is wiating to come up. Rasmus would be replaced by Gose/Marisnick. Any SP has many, many pitchers just snapping at his heels for a shot.

If Adam Lind fails again this year, how much would Kansas City want for Eric Hosmer or Billy Butler? Both young (22 & 25), solid offensive players (career OPS 0.799 and 0.816) and at least partially blocking each other at the 1B/DH position.

Hosmer would be more expensive in terms of prospects but also looks a better player with more years of control.

Kansas have needs at C and SP, areas that Toronto have strength so surely there's a match somewhere there?


Hosmer to the Royals is what Lawrie is to the Blue jays...essentially the future of the team and almost untradeable.

Krylian
04-07-2012, 11:22 AM
Hosmer to the Royals is what Lawrie is to the Blue jays...essentially the future of the team and almost untradeable.

Queue the 'a bunch of average prospects for Hosmer proposal'.

North Yorker
04-07-2012, 12:30 PM
Francisco Liriano has had a really good spring, and is also due to become a FA next year. If he has a solid season up to the TD I think he would be an ideal target for AA.

The price for a rental shouldnt be too bad considering teams dont get compensation picks unless the player plays the entire year with one team before hitting FA.

Romero/Morrow/Liriano/Alvarez/Drabek or McGowan or Hutch or McGuire or Jenkins etc

could be a good rotation to make a playoff push with.

If he does well we can try to re-sign him, or we can let him walk and plug guys like Hutch/McGuire/Drabek/Jenkins into the rotation next year.

Sanyo
04-07-2012, 12:36 PM
Problem is KC has nothing to really trade back. They aren't trading Hosmer unless you offer up someone like Lawrie, which I wouldn't do

My suggestion:

To Jays: Billy Butler (Has 4 years left on deal at $8 mil, favourable terms for the Jays)

To Royals: JP Arencibia and Deck McGuire (throw in maybe another C level prospect like David Cooper). OR Travis D'Arnaud straight up.

This could work possibly...possibly...you have to dangle something the Royals really need which is catching and pitching. Butler is young, has the upside the Jays would love to have and at a fairly affordable deal.

Then turn around and trade Lind to a team that needs an affordable bat for a prospect or two.

North Yorker
04-07-2012, 12:50 PM
Problem is KC has nothing to really trade back. They aren't trading Hosmer unless you offer up someone like Lawrie, which I wouldn't do

My suggestion:

To Jays: Billy Butler (Has 4 years left on deal at $8 mil, favourable terms for the Jays)

To Royals: JP Arencibia and Deck McGuire (throw in maybe another C level prospect like David Cooper).

This could work possibly...possibly...you have to dangle something the Royals really need which is catching and pitching. Butler is young, has the upside the Jays would love to have and at a fairly affordable deal.

Then turn around and trade Lind to a team that needs an affordable bat for a prospect or two.

I think Lind to the pirates makes a ton of sense.

Maybe something like Lind+Thames+Hech+ a spec for Walker+ Hanrahan.

Lineup next year would be very solid with Butler,Walker,D'Arnaud in it, very RH heavy though..

Sanyo
04-07-2012, 01:06 PM
I think Lind to the pirates makes a ton of sense.

Maybe something like Lind+Thames+Hech+ a spec for Walker+ Hanrahan.

Lineup next year would be very solid with Butler,Walker,D'Arnaud in it, very RH heavy though..

Walker is a switch hitter so it could work.


But another team that needs a 1B is Washington Nationals. LaRoche isn't going to cut it and the Nationals want to win! Lind is a cheap option at 1st for a team who maybe needs to cut back on spending. He's locked up and they have some big bats like Harper and Rendon coming up so its not a necessity that they need a power bat at 1b.

I would do:

To Nationals: Adam Lind

To Jays: Steve Lombardozzi (2B with very good defense. Has 4 out of 5 tools (no power but he would likely be a number 9 hitter so that's fine) and Robbie Ray (20 year old pitched in A ball, will be hitting Double A this year, good upside, can be swung for a trade later on for more assets). I would try to get Alex Meyer if possible...

The Jays then get a great 1b in Butler (mentioned in previous thread) and a high upside 2b in Steve Lombardozzi. Nationals can always just go out and get a 2b like Brandon Philips and we know they are willing to give up prospects.

Sanyo
04-07-2012, 01:11 PM
To Summorize:

To Royals: Billy Butler
To Jays: JP Arencibia (they get a catcher and a power guy to replace Butler's bat), Deck McGuire (a young starting pitcher they so desperately need) and David Cooper (DH for Royals, potential to hit for average) or D'Arnaud straight up.

THEN:

To Nationals: Adam Lind
To Jays: 2B Steve Lombardozzi and P Robbie Ray OR try to get Alex Meyer...

2009mvp
04-07-2012, 02:58 PM
Sounds like something I said. I don't think I said Clippard sucks or anything just that it wasn't prudent to be trading assets for a reliever. I mean, the Nats weren't just giving him away right? I stand by that and I really don't see how that's comparable to the Lannan discussion.

CurlyAce
04-07-2012, 04:44 PM
Adam Lind & Eric Thames for Brandon Belt & lottery ticket prospect? I'd love the deal as I'm not high on either Lind or Thames i've always been a Snider fan. Plus no one can deny Belt has upside.

craigerlee
04-07-2012, 05:49 PM
Adam Lind & Eric Thames for Brandon Belt & lottery ticket prospect? I'd love the deal as I'm not high on either Lind or Thames i've always been a Snider fan. Plus no one can deny Belt has upside.

Why would SF take this deal?

wamco
04-07-2012, 08:40 PM
why wouldn't nats just put morse at 1st

JaysFan87
04-07-2012, 09:15 PM
why wouldn't nats just put morse at 1st

Long term I think that the nat's hope Zimmerman goes to first and Renden plays 3rd. Ideally of course.

JaysFan87
04-07-2012, 10:29 PM
Nick Swisher....2013 1B....go!

wamco
04-07-2012, 11:21 PM
ya, he blasted one out tonight in the 9th off peralta.

maybe we should consider vizquel as the full time 1bman as we used him there opening night.

JaysFan87
04-07-2012, 11:56 PM
amazed how little the yankees had to give to get swisher. granted it was off an off-year. Still remarkable.

wamco
04-08-2012, 05:24 AM
i drafted him the year he went from oak to chi in fantasy baseball thiinking he was gonna blast 35. That type of power unfortunately never came and he had an off year. Sox were even playing him in CF then.

JaysFan87
04-08-2012, 09:38 AM
i drafted him the year he went from oak to chi in fantasy baseball thiinking he was gonna blast 35. That type of power unfortunately never came and he had an off year. Sox were even playing him in CF then.

He did play in CF the last year in Oakland. But still remarkable that in a year where the BB and SO% were at career norms and the only reason he didnt hit better was becasue of an uncharacteristically low BABIP he still put up a OBP and 24 HR. Amazing. He would look great on this team and I dont think that it would even cost a long term ridiculous deal. Hitting in the 2 or 5 hole would be ideal. Depending on the development of Lawrie a 2/3/4/5 of Swisher/Bautista/Lawrie/EE or a Johnson/Baustista/Lawrie/Swisher would be awesome. THink of the OBP and SLG% of those 4..... :drool:

StayOnBoard
04-08-2012, 11:14 AM
Adam Lind & Eric Thames for Brandon Belt & lottery ticket prospect? I'd love the deal as I'm not high on either Lind or Thames i've always been a Snider fan. Plus no one can deny Belt has upside.

How about Deck McGuire and Joel Carrano for Felix Hernandez instead?

and I've course you'd love that deal - because it's absolutely ridiculous and completely one sided. Not even close to what it would take to trade for Brandon Belt, let alone + more.

anotherqtip420
04-08-2012, 12:10 PM
I'd rather see what it would take to get one of the spare 1st basemen the Angels have got or see if the Padres will deal Alonso???

mike_noodles
04-08-2012, 02:34 PM
Long term I think that the nat's hope Zimmerman goes to first and Renden plays 3rd. Ideally of course.

Correct me if I'm wrong (and I may be), but isn't Zimmerman considered one of the better defensive 3B in the NL? I remember reading something a couple of years ago that compared him to David Wright but with much better defense.

Sanyo
04-08-2012, 02:45 PM
Correct me if I'm wrong (and I may be), but isn't Zimmerman considered one of the better defensive 3B in the NL? I remember reading something a couple of years ago that compared him to David Wright but with much better defense.

Well you cant have Zimmerman and Rendon at 3rd...unless they use Rendon to get some pitching back, one of them will have to move to 1st, which is where their biggest weakness is right now...Rendon is also pretty damn good at 3rd, his value may be getting a 1st basemen back...

But Rendon is still at High A, he's still about 2 years away from the Majors so its something you can slowly think about...

CurlyAce
04-08-2012, 03:59 PM
Why would SF take this deal?

Because they have a stupid GM? See Aubrey Huff deal and Brandon Belt platoon idea.

Sanyo
04-08-2012, 04:00 PM
Because they have a stupid GM? See Aubrey Huff deal and Brandon Belt platoon idea.

See Zach Wheeler for 2 months of Carlos Beltran.

CurlyAce
04-08-2012, 04:13 PM
How about Deck McGuire and Joel Carrano for Felix Hernandez instead?

and I've course you'd love that deal - because it's absolutely ridiculous and completely one sided. Not even close to what it would take to trade for Brandon Belt, let alone + more.

Oh it would be totally one sided for the Jays. I just think Sabean is a stupid GM who seems to have little faith in Belt (just look at his platoon idea). So i'm looking for AA to pounce on another Escobar or Rasmus type trade where the Jays come out looking like winners while they gave up little to nothing in return. I look at the Huff 2 year deal, continually sending Belt to AAA, the Melky Cabrera trade all as signs that Seaban is off his rocker recently. So why not try and throw a low ball offer for a guy who's at his lowest value (ala what the Yankees did to get Nick Swisher that everyone is getting hard ons about above this post). You never know unless you try.

Also comparing buying low on Brandon Belt, a rookie who hasn't achieved anything at the major league level to Felix Hernandez already a Cy young award winner at 25 is a great comparison for my intelligence. I get it you know how to use a hyperbole good job. Doesn't mean your right.

CurlyAce
04-08-2012, 04:14 PM
See Zach Wheeler for 2 months of Carlos Beltran.

Nice, forgot about that one. Yet another gem of a deal for the Giants GM.

craigerlee
04-08-2012, 11:46 PM
Because they have a stupid GM? See Aubrey Huff deal and Brandon Belt platoon idea.
The fact they made bad signing and they feel obligated to play Huff because of it, does not mean they're gonna make a dumb trade. Angels are playing Vernon Wells, is their GM gonna trade us Mike Trout?

See Zach Wheeler for 2 months of Carlos Beltran.
Carlos Beltran is good though. The guy put up almost 5 WAR last year. They made that trade to make the playoffs, it didn't work, happens all the time even to smart GM's. Lind and Thames will be lucky if combined they put up 5 WAR over the next 2 years.

CurlyAce
04-09-2012, 12:57 AM
The fact they made bad signing and they feel obligated to play Huff because of it, does not mean they're gonna make a dumb trade. Angels are playing Vernon Wells, is their GM gonna trade us Mike Trout?

Carlos Beltran is good though. The guy put up almost 5 WAR last year. They made that trade to make the playoffs, it didn't work, happens all the time even to smart GM's. Lind and Thames will be lucky if combined they put up 5 WAR over the next 2 years.

I see your point, but remind me what happened to the Angles GM that made the bone head Wells trade in the first place? He got fired because he was one of the stupid GM's that saw "oh Vernon put up 20+ bombs and 80+ rbi's last year he's a good player!". All's i'm saying is try the same thing with the Giants who have made a lot of stupid moves recently too (just look at Klaws reaction to almost every single move done by the Giants). You try and sell the "Lind is a good player look her hit 23 bombs and 78 rbi's last year!!!!". If it doesn't work so be it you get hung up on and you move on. Maybe offer a more competitive offer. All i'm saying is it's worth a try since the only downside is getting laughed at for the 2 seconds it takes the other GM to hang up the phone. A small price to pay if they are dumb enough to do it. No real need to have a heated argument about this. I'd just like to see Belt in a Jays uni and like any other GM I think you have to throw a low ball offer out there first just for the "what if he's dumb enough to do this" factor. Then you can move on to more serious offers if need be.

Ragin' Cajun
04-09-2012, 09:03 AM
I really wish we had kept Mike Napoli and stayed away from Frank Francisco. Napoli would have been a perfect fit to our club. He can catch and play 1 bag.

2009mvp
04-09-2012, 10:35 AM
I see your point, but remind me what happened to the Angles GM that made the bone head Wells trade in the first place? He got fired because he was one of the stupid GM's that saw "oh Vernon put up 20+ bombs and 80+ rbi's last year he's a good player!". All's i'm saying is try the same thing with the Giants who have made a lot of stupid moves recently too (just look at Klaws reaction to almost every single move done by the Giants). You try and sell the "Lind is a good player look her hit 23 bombs and 78 rbi's last year!!!!". If it doesn't work so be it you get hung up on and you move on. Maybe offer a more competitive offer. All i'm saying is it's worth a try since the only downside is getting laughed at for the 2 seconds it takes the other GM to hang up the phone. A small price to pay if they are dumb enough to do it. No real need to have a heated argument about this. I'd just like to see Belt in a Jays uni and like any other GM I think you have to throw a low ball offer out there first just for the "what if he's dumb enough to do this" factor. Then you can move on to more serious offers if need be.

Impossible for us to know if this is 100% true, but AA did say he doesn't do things that way. He'll ask on a player and get an idea of what the other GM is looking for, but he doesn't 'sell' his players in that manner. Makes sense too, there are only 29 other GM's on the planet, pissing one off isn't a good way to do business.

Sanyo
04-09-2012, 10:39 AM
I really wish we had kept Mike Napoli and stayed away from Frank Francisco. Napoli would have been a perfect fit to our club. He can catch and play 1 bag.

It wasn't necessarily one of AA's best moves but to be fair Frank had health issues in the 1st half that was not helping him out at all -- 2nd half he was arguably one of the best bullpen guys in baseball. They let him go to get the pick and because they got Santos. Mike Napoli also had a career year last year that was very unexpected.

Sanyo
04-09-2012, 11:00 AM
?

Carlos Beltran is good though. The guy put up almost 5 WAR last year. They made that trade to make the playoffs, it didn't work, happens all the time even to smart GM's. Lind and Thames will be lucky if combined they put up 5 WAR over the next 2 years.

Whether he put up a 5 war or not, the Giants compromised their best prospect for 2 months of services for a player who you knew was not guaranteed to come back next year. They are also in danger of not being able to sign Tim Linceum and you need that star pitcher to be able to replace him, in case Lincecum decides to high tail. Granted, they were in the playoff hunt, but I still think they gave too much. They have two high ranking catchers (ranked 3 and 4) in their system and since Buster is likely to be their star catcher for a few years at least, they could have traded one of those for Beltran. No one would've beat that deal still (and even if they have plans to convert Buster to 1b in the future, they still have one of the other catcher (Joseph or Sucac) coming through the system)...

craigerlee
04-09-2012, 11:54 AM
Whether he put up a 5 war or not, the Giants compromised their best prospect for 2 months of services for a player who you knew was not guaranteed to come back next year.
Flags fly forever, if the rest of team wasn't immune to offense that team could of easily beat out the D-Backs for the playoffs and with Lincecum, Caine and Bumgarner as their 3 starters, they could of easily challenged for another World Series.

They are also in danger of not being able to sign Tim Linceum and you need that star pitcher to be able to replace him, in case Lincecum decides to high tail. Granted, they were in the playoff hunt, but I still think they gave too much.

That's what you have to give up to get one of the premier offensive bats at the trade deadline. We traded Jeff freakin Kent for David Cone in 1992 to win a title. Was that worth it? Hell ya it was, these are the risks you take to try and win a World Series. Unfortunately it didn't work for them.


They have two high ranking catchers (ranked 3 and 4) in their system and since Buster is likely to be their star catcher for a few years at least, they could have traded one of those for Beltran. No one would've beat that deal still (and even if they have plans to convert Buster to 1b in the future, they still have one of the other catcher (Joseph or Sucac) coming through the system)...

So you were in the discussions then? Did Brian Sabean tell you that he didn't offer up any of these catchers? Did the Sandy Alderson tell you that he would taken a catcher from Giants instead of Wheeler? You can't prove points with information you don't know.

craigerlee
04-09-2012, 12:02 PM
I see your point, but remind me what happened to the Angles GM that made the bone head Wells trade in the first place? He got fired because he was one of the stupid GM's that saw "oh Vernon put up 20+ bombs and 80+ rbi's last year he's a good player!". All's i'm saying is try the same thing with the Giants who have made a lot of stupid moves recently too (just look at Klaws reaction to almost every single move done by the Giants). You try and sell the "Lind is a good player look her hit 23 bombs and 78 rbi's last year!!!!". If it doesn't work so be it you get hung up on and you move on. Maybe offer a more competitive offer. All i'm saying is it's worth a try since the only downside is getting laughed at for the 2 seconds it takes the other GM to hang up the phone. A small price to pay if they are dumb enough to do it. No real need to have a heated argument about this. I'd just like to see Belt in a Jays uni and like any other GM I think you have to throw a low ball offer out there first just for the "what if he's dumb enough to do this" factor. Then you can move on to more serious offers if need be.

Aside from pissing off other GM's who will now likely ignore your phone calls if your known as the GM who offers preposterous trades, the question still remains why would San Francisco take Lind and Thames for Belt? It makes no sense to trade away one of your best prospect for a guy that hasn't put up an OBP over .300 in last 2 years and guy that's a marginal upgrade in LF, which you could easily find in free agency. The fact that Sabean isn't the savviest GM doesn't mean that he's a complete moron.

Sanyo
04-09-2012, 12:35 PM
Flags fly forever, if the rest of team wasn't immune to offense that team could of easily beat out the D-Backs for the playoffs and with Lincecum, Caine and Bumgarner as their 3 starters, they could of easily challenged for another World Series.


That's what you have to give up to get one of the premier offensive bats at the trade deadline. We traded Jeff freakin Kent for David Cone in 1992 to win a title. Was that worth it? Hell ya it was, these are the risks you take to try and win a World Series. Unfortunately it didn't work for them.



So you were in the discussions then? Did Brian Sabean tell you that he didn't offer up any of these catchers? Did the Sandy Alderson tell you that he would taken a catcher from Giants instead of Wheeler? You can't prove points with information you don't know.

Still a bad trade, say whatever you want, I'll go with my opinion, you go with yours..

Farsight
04-09-2012, 12:52 PM
Still a bad trade, say whatever you want, I'll go with my opinion, you go with yours.. Dont be surprised if the jays part ways with a top prospect for a few months of a good player as they get closer to contending

GNick
04-09-2012, 03:47 PM
I really wish we had kept Mike Napoli and stayed away from Frank Francisco. Napoli would have been a perfect fit to our club. He can catch and play 1 bag.

You ain't the only one. I remember being perplexed as why he traded what he needed in Napoli for another marginal closer:mad:

Sanyo
04-09-2012, 04:23 PM
Dont be surprised if the jays part ways with a top prospect for a few months of a good player as they get closer to contending

I dont recall teams like the Yankees, Sox or even the Phillies give up their top prospect to rent a player (no matter how good)...was a dumb move and Im still saying its a dumb move, will never change my opinion.

The Jays if they needed to have a stacked farm and can afford to make moves like that -- the Giants could not. If the Giants had a few strong pitching prospects then MAYBE...MAYBE...but considering with how volatile the Lincecum contract situation is and them not having any other decent pitching prospect nor a decent 4th or 5th pitcher (Vogelsong was a freak rare incident) they got desperate and made a short-sighted decision, instead of looking at maybe winning world series consistently in the future. D-Backs are so far and ahead better now, they might as well trade Lincecum like the Jays did with Halladay and start to re-build, that team is in shambles!

dtmagnet
04-11-2012, 05:19 PM
If the Phillies suck all year trade for Doc :D

the_jon
04-11-2012, 08:42 PM
If the Phillies suck all year trade for Doc :D
This :drool:

GNick
04-11-2012, 08:58 PM
If the Phillies suck all year trade for Doc :D

What would we have to give up for Halladay?

dtmagnet
04-11-2012, 09:01 PM
What would we have to give up for Halladay?

I don't know, but he's more valuable now than when we traded him.

the_jon
04-11-2012, 09:03 PM
What would we have to give up for Halladay?
Cecil/Mathis/Francisco

the_jon
04-11-2012, 09:05 PM
I don't know, but he's more valuable now than when we traded him.
How? Because he's locked up or because people think he's better? Cause nobody gets better coming to the AL East. He's over 2 full years older than he was when we dealt him..

StealingSigns
04-11-2012, 10:24 PM
I don't know, but he's more valuable now than when we traded him.

Umm, how??

Sanyo
04-12-2012, 01:26 AM
I wouldnt want Halladay back -- Jays have moved on and he was part of the past. He's almost 35, not getting any younger. Thanks but no thanks for Doc.

Toxeryll
04-12-2012, 01:36 AM
yes hes almost 35, but he hasnt slowed down. this guy is what we need right now to be contenders. if the price is right, we definitely have to look at getting him

Sanyo
04-12-2012, 01:40 AM
yes hes almost 35, but he hasnt slowed down. this guy is what we need right now to be contenders. if the price is right, we definitely have to look at getting him

but who said philly is going to sell?

StealingSigns
04-12-2012, 01:51 AM
Philly isn't going to trade Doc. It is a moot point.

But, even if they were, he doesn't fit the timeline. Doc (or any other frontline starter who might be available) is someone you trade for to put you over the top in a WS bid. The Jays are not that team right now.

I remember when Jays fans were clamoring for the Jays to sign or trade for Carlos Delgado after his initial signing with the Mets. Time to let it go.

Toxeryll
04-12-2012, 02:19 AM
but who said philly is going to sell?

obviously theyre not. i still dont get why you wouldnt want him back if there is a chance to reacquire him

The_Jet11
04-12-2012, 03:49 AM
I think there is a definite possibility the Jays try to re-acquire Doc. Once his contract is up, that is. He'd be the perfect addition to our Rotation (as a back of the rotation innings eater!) with a history of success in the AL East, and the centimental value of being able to come in and play along side the kids (Drabek, D'Arnaud, and Gose) that he was traded for, as we are finally a contender!

He retires as a Jay, and is the first Jays PITCHER in the HOF.

We can dream, right?...

bartron_44
04-12-2012, 08:30 AM
Dear lord..

Since the Phillies are more in a win now mode rather then a rebuild, and they need sticks more then arms, I would offer them Rasmus,Escobar,Nicolino and Thames for Halladay right now. 3 guys who can step in and play right now, and a young promising arm.

Can you imagine a rotation of:

Doc
Romero
Morrow
Alvarez
Drabek

We bring Snider,Hech and Gose up from AAA ..as with that staff defense will be needed more so then scoring a bunch of runs. However, they could all turn out to be upgrades at the plate too. I don't like trading Escobar, but we need to get Hech up here this season if he keeps on hitting the snot out of the baseball.

Our defense up the middle would be silly the way JPA is playing behind the plate this year.

AA09-?
04-12-2012, 09:09 AM
I wouldnt want Halladay back -- Jays have moved on and he was part of the past. He's almost 35, not getting any younger. Thanks but no thanks for Doc.

:confused:

ILDD
04-12-2012, 10:28 AM
I think there is a definite possibility the Jays try to re-acquire Doc. Once his contract is up, that is. He'd be the perfect addition to our Rotation (as a back of the rotation innings eater!) with a history of success in the AL East, and the centimental value of being able to come in and play along side the kids (Drabek, D'Arnaud, and Gose) that he was traded for, as we are finally a contender!

He retires as a Jay, and is the first Jays PITCHER in the HOF.

We can dream, right?...

He'll be 38 when his current contract is up, he shows no signs of slowng down yet but another 3 years of wear and tear may reduce his effectiveness.

I'd rather remember his as the dominant pitcher in baseball rather than a guy at the end of his career regressing.

It's a nice though but no thanks.

wamco
04-12-2012, 11:54 AM
I wouldnt want Halladay back -- Jays have moved on and he was part of the past. He's almost 35, not getting any younger. Thanks but no thanks for Doc.

shocking

:facepalm:
:facepalm::facepalm:
:facepalm::facepalm::facepalm:

Sanyo
04-12-2012, 12:25 PM
shocking

:facepalm:
:facepalm::facepalm:
:facepalm::facepalm::facepalm:

the ever annoying facepalm...

and yeah bring back Doc now and give up the young guys we developed the last two years -- Jays arent getting Doc back for anything less than D'Arnaud, Syndergaard and maybe Marisnick -- similar package to what the Phils had to give up 2 years ago.

This is the short-sighted thinking that kills many teams -- oh like the Phils now who got a 2 year run but are now on their last legs without a farm system that can produce them anything...like I said -- thanks but no thanks to Doc.

wamco
04-12-2012, 12:46 PM
I wouldnt want Halladay back -- Jays have moved on and he was part of the past.

:facepalm:
:facepalm::facepalm:
:facepalm::facepalm::facepalm:[/QUOTE]

JermanJaysFan
04-12-2012, 01:34 PM
Doc is a FA again after 2014 (his age 37 season). That might end up being not too bad of a time for the Jays to take him back on a short term FA deal and/or pick him up in a deadline deal for a WS push, depending what our status as contenders and our starting rotation looks like.

ah nuts
04-12-2012, 01:35 PM
I wouldnt want Halladay back -- Jays have moved on and he was part of the past. He's almost 35, not getting any younger. Thanks but no thanks for Doc.

kinda agree, I'm not into obtaining old guys. (although doc could be Rivera-ish)
plus I'm sure they'll ask for a king's ransom.
plus he bailed on us already - as per a grand return.

alistar
04-12-2012, 01:43 PM
kinda agree, I'm not into obtaining old guys. (although doc could be Rivera-ish)
plus I'm sure they'll ask for a king's ransom.
plus he bailed on us already - as per a grand return.

Right... he signed an extension with the Jays who told him they were going to spend to compete. They sign BJ Ryan, Burnett and trade for Glaus and after a few years, they decide to start dumping players again. I'm surprised Halladay waited this long before leaving the Jays. He was wasting his time here

Kenny Powders
04-12-2012, 04:03 PM
If we were going to trade for an ace type pitcher I would look to someone younger. I get that Doc was great for us and all, but that ship has sailed.

phillipmike
04-12-2012, 04:57 PM
I dont see the Philles giving up on Halladay during the season or any time soon. The NL East is not a powerhouse - when Howard and Utley get back they will be huge contenders again.

I would not trade for Halladay is he would cost a lot of our blue chip prospects. However i would sign him if he were a free agent in two years.

phillipmike
04-12-2012, 05:00 PM
In other news apparently Morneau was available in the off-season with no takers. If he and Lind do not bounce back this year i wonder if a Lind for Morneau would interest either GM.

http://www.mlbtraderumors.com/

es0terik
04-12-2012, 06:19 PM
In other news apparently Morneau was available in the off-season with no takers. If he and Lind do not bounce back this year i wonder if a Lind for Morneau would interest either GM.

http://www.mlbtraderumors.com/

Lind for Morneau is a terrible deal for us... They are just about the same in terms of how much use you'd assume you'd get out of them (barring a very big and unforeseen breakout) but Morneau makes 28M over the next two seasons (as much as Bautista) while Lind only makes 10M during that time. Then to top it off, the Jays have THREE club options on Lind once his guaranteed contract is up.