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View Full Version : Wade thinks Kobe is the best player to take a game winning shot



bballswishanet
02-28-2012, 09:53 AM
http://dimemag.com/2012/02/dwyane-wade-says-he-wants-kobe-taking-a-games-last-shot/


So in in the past 3 months,

-Wade says this
-Carmelo says Kobe is the best player in the game today
-Kevin Durant says Kobe Bryant is the best one on one player in the game today
-Kevin Love says Kobe is the best player in the game today
-Larry Bird says Kobe would be his first choice teammate
-Jordan says Kobe is the only player comparable to him
-Most NBA GMs say they want Kobe taking the last shot
-Shaq said Kobe is the best SG that he played with
-Steve Nash said Kobe Bryant is the best player in the world

And Kobe is leading the league in scoring and leads his team in assists.

And this guy is in his 16th season? :speechless:

:clap:

Celticsfan2007
02-28-2012, 10:01 AM
That's because he is....

tredigs
02-28-2012, 10:03 AM
Ask any true Laker fan how much they want Kobe taking over in the 4th quarter this season.

He's unarguably the most detrimental 4th quarter player in the NBA.

whitemamba33
02-28-2012, 10:24 AM
The funnest part of this thread is going to be watching all the Heat fans come in and complain about how Wade is wrong and doesn't know what he's talking about. Durant, Love, Bird, Jordan...they did it with all of them. And it wasn't only about their particular comment, they went MUCH deeper. All of a sudden Bird was never that good so his opinion doesn't matter, Durant hasn't won anything so his opinion is useless, and Jordan drafted Kwame so what does he know about basketball? Can't wait to hear what they come up with for D-Wade.

I know i'll be watching...so let it begin!

UPRock
02-28-2012, 10:26 AM
No, I still think Dirk is the best 4th quarter specialist in the NBA, and he's not a chuker.

younggunn113
02-28-2012, 10:28 AM
Ask any true Laker fan how much they want Kobe taking over in the 4th quarter this season.

He's unarguably the most detrimental 4th quarter player in the NBA.

Agree and disagree. He can be maddening at times, but in others he's brilliant. Go watch the 4th quarter of the Raptors game. He basically gave the game away, and then stole it back with some big time shots down the stretch.

He can shoot the team out of the game in the 4th, but he can also single handily win the game. That's what you get with him and ask any other Laker fan if there's another player they would take over him in crunch time. You have to be willing to take the shots to make them.

This isn't knocking Lebron, but he doesn't even seem willing to take those shots in crunch time. I think his thought process is, I can't be blamed if I don't shoot. He can't handle failure like Kobe, Jordan, Wade, etc. Nothing wrong with it, he is still a top 3 player in the NBA, but you need to be able to handle the pressure in order to even attempt those shots.

LongIslandIcedZ
02-28-2012, 10:32 AM
I would want Melo, Dirk or Durant taking the shot before Kobe. If I didnt have those 3, Kobe certainly wouldnt be a poor choice.

dnewguy
02-28-2012, 10:34 AM
Kobe was beside him, and Wade gave him props for his past successes. It's easy to say Kobe is the best now because those young guys don't see him as a threat anymore, he's like a grandfather to many of them. Kobe is shooting 28 percent when it matters and Lebron 33 percent.....if you think it's nothing more than other players giving him respect then you are not been real. They all said the same about Jordan when he was with the Wizards........everyone clearly knew Jordan wasn't his old self and they were just giving him respect.

Mcdoh
02-28-2012, 10:34 AM
this thread is going to be interested... welcome haters.. :D

ManRam
02-28-2012, 10:37 AM
Well, this year he's been awful. His hit what, one clutch shot all year...out of many attempts? It's not "hating", that's just facts.

But in his career, he's shown he's as cutthroat and cold-blooded as it comes.

Hawkeye15
02-28-2012, 10:38 AM
I feel like a Kobe is clutch thread comes up once a week. Funny how anyone expects it to end differently. The facts are out there. Use them how you see fit.

benzni
02-28-2012, 10:39 AM
eh,

Kobe is O.K.


.
.
.
.
of course he is the best

/thread

DaLakerz Rulz
02-28-2012, 10:42 AM
Ask any true Laker fan how much they want Kobe taking over in the 4th quarter this season.

He's unarguably the most detrimental 4th quarter player in the NBA.

I get what you are saying, although I think "most detrimental" is taking it a bit too far. I literally cringe nowadays when he starts hogging the ball in the 4th, praying that there is no turnover or I'll-advised fadeaway.

The sad part is that Kobe could be so much than he already is if he decided to play high IQ basketball down the stretch.

Master Mind
02-28-2012, 10:45 AM
:horse:

raiderfaninTX
02-28-2012, 10:57 AM
using the league in scoring when you've taken the most shots is not saying much

but i still would have durant and dirk shoot it over him

raiderfaninTX
02-28-2012, 10:58 AM
also please just because someone does not share your opinion does not make them a hater

especially when you have not presented any facts from this season

LakersMaster24
02-28-2012, 10:59 AM
Kobe was never the best in the league and Kobe is not clutch.Dont you know PSDs definition of Bryant? Why bother making this thread?

Hawkeye15
02-28-2012, 11:09 AM
Kobe was never the best in the league and Kobe is not clutch.Dont you know PSDs definition of Bryant? Why bother making this thread?

I LOVE your signature. Its exactly what I told Laker fans you were getting with Brown. Its amazing to me he won COY, or that anyone expected him to be able to run an offense. All he did in Cleveland was isolate LeBron on the left side of the floor. When the defense figured that out, he isolated LeBron on the right side of the floor. He doesn't have any idea what to do outside give the ball to his star wing and just stare at the play hoping something awesome happens.

sammid21
02-28-2012, 11:38 AM
I never liked Kobe up until last year even though I knew he was the best in the game since MJ retired in 98. Up until last year that Prince James took the easier route to win a title, I appreciate Kobe more for his hard work and sticking with the Lakers through up and downs and winning 2 titles(after shaq). He is the best clutch shooter in todays game even though his fg% is low and takes too many shots, he is trying to will his team to win and working hard at it to. You can always respect and eventually become a fan of that

Da Knicks
02-28-2012, 11:42 AM
players way of saying farewell to a great? I still want Melo or Dirk shooting the last shot.

Hawkeye15
02-28-2012, 11:45 AM
I never liked Kobe up until last year even though I knew he was the best in the game since MJ retired in 98. Up until last year that Prince James took the easier route to win a title, I appreciate Kobe more for his hard work and sticking with the Lakers through up and downs and winning 2 titles(after shaq). He is the best clutch shooter in todays game even though his fg% is low and takes too many shots, he is trying to will his team to win and working hard at it to. You can always respect and eventually become a fan of that

what ups and downs have the Lakers had? They had a 2-3 year window were they weren't contenders. Every other of Kobe's 12-13 seasons they were contenders. I love how Magic, Bird, and then fans of Kobe or Duncan say they respect him staying with his team. Um, no ****, they were all drafted into the best franchises of their time, where are they going? Kobe even whined and *****ed non-stop during the "down" time, demanding a trade, etc.

I just think its ridiculous to give credit to a player for staying with a team that was set up to win chips the second he walked through the door.

sammid21
02-28-2012, 11:57 AM
what ups and downs have the Lakers had? They had a 2-3 year window were they weren't contenders. Every other of Kobe's 12-13 seasons they were contenders. I love how Magic, Bird, and then fans of Kobe or Duncan say they respect him staying with his team. Um, no ****, they were all drafted into the best franchises of their time, where are they going? Kobe even whined and *****ed non-stop during the "down" time, demanding a trade, etc.

I just think its ridiculous to give credit to a player for staying with a team that was set up to win chips the second he walked through the door.

True they were always contenders, which is one of the reasons i didnt care or like Kobe because he went into a good situation. But he kept on grinding it after Shaq was gone and they werent contenders. Sure he demanded a trade, but everyone knew it was just so the Lakers can get good peices around him.

Isnt it even more ridiculous for a player to team up with all stars to win a title while they are the best in the league and in their prime? Shouldnt James have brought players to his team instead? All the great do that. But this isnt a James/Kobe debate though. Kobe wants the ball in clutch situations, only a handful of players are wired like that and dont get intimidated when they lose.

Avenged
02-28-2012, 12:01 PM
Wade hasn't been watching Laker games this season then.. :hide:

Hawkeye15
02-28-2012, 12:08 PM
True they were always contenders, which is one of the reasons i didnt care or like Kobe because he went into a good situation. But he kept on grinding it after Shaq was gone and they werent contenders. Sure he demanded a trade, but everyone knew it was just so the Lakers can get good peices around him.

Isnt it even more ridiculous for a player to team up with all stars to win a title while they are the best in the league and in their prime? Shouldnt James have brought players to his team instead? All the great do that. But this isnt a James/Kobe debate though. Kobe wants the ball in clutch situations, only a handful of players are wired like that and dont get intimidated when they lose.

James doesn't run the front office. James didn't turn down a trade to acquire Amare Stoudemire because JJ Hickson had, "upside". James didn't sign the crap he played with.

Kobe does want the ball in clutch time. To the detriment of his team most nights. As I have said a hundred times, do you remember any of the 110-120 misses he has had on game winners? Probably not. Do you remember any of the 35 makes? Probably. Humans have selective memory, so when you have simply taken 2-3 times as many attempts as anyone else, of course you will eventually make more. Therefore people forget allllllllll those misses and concentrate on the makes.

SaimuKala
02-28-2012, 12:15 PM
It's funny that people think they know more than people who have played against Kobe Bryant.

sammid21
02-28-2012, 12:41 PM
James doesn't run the front office. James didn't turn down a trade to acquire Amare Stoudemire because JJ Hickson had, "upside". James didn't sign the crap he played with.

Kobe does want the ball in clutch time. To the detriment of his team most nights. As I have said a hundred times, do you remember any of the 110-120 misses he has had on game winners? Probably not. Do you remember any of the 35 makes? Probably. Humans have selective memory, so when you have simply taken 2-3 times as many attempts as anyone else, of course you will eventually make more. Therefore people forget allllllllll those misses and concentrate on the makes.

James couldve demanded or had input for Cavs get certain players, just like Kobe and Jordan. Instead he chose to go to a team with 2 franchise players, yes Bosh was a franchise player.

Sure Kobe misses many clutch shots, but the percentage of makes out weighs the misses. If you pass them up then its 0% chance of making clutch shots. Jordan is the ultimate clutch player yet he missed his fair share. Clutch players look for the last shot, make or miss. I'd rather have a player be 25%FG in clutch situations (25/100) than someone who has a higher percentage while only taking a few shots 50% (2/4) and depend on role players to take the heat. just an example

Gibby
02-28-2012, 12:41 PM
i hate the argument that if a legend says it, we cant argue with it. i can find about 5 hofs who said kobe is not the best in the league but you guys still wont agree

Hawkeye15
02-28-2012, 12:45 PM
James couldve demanded or had input for Cavs get certain players, just like Kobe and Jordan. Instead he chose to go to a team with 2 franchise players, yes Bosh was a franchise player.

Sure Kobe misses many clutch shots, but the percentage of makes out weighs the misses. If you pass them up then its 0% chance of making clutch shots. Jordan is the ultimate clutch player yet he missed his fair share. Clutch players look for the last shot, make or miss. I'd rather have a player be 25%FG in clutch situations (25/100) than someone who has a higher percentage while only taking a few shots 50% (2/4) and depend on role players to take the heat. just an example

No matter what James did, his front office has proven incapable of running an NBA franchise for years upon years. Moving on.

The percentages don't outweigh the fact that his team would be better served trying to run plays instead of isolating. I haven't seen it updated this year, but basically, the Lakers are at 109 points per 100 possessions over the past decade. In a one possession game with under 24 seconds to play, the Lakers drop over 20 points per 100 possessions. Why? Because everyone in the universe knows Kobe is going to get the ball, not pass it, and force a shot. 3/10 times he hits it, 7/10 his team goes down.

This is why a guy like Chris Paul for instance should top anyones list when asking, "who do you want to have the ball with 15 seconds to go, down 1". Not only can he score, but you now have a guy who can create an easy look for another player if he needs to.

ManRam
02-28-2012, 12:46 PM
i hate the argument that if a legend says it, we cant argue with it. i can find about 5 hofs who said kobe is not the best in the league but you guys still wont agree

most often, in all sports, the best front office execs and GMs are people who were far from great at that sport. the greats often are the lesser evaluators of talent...

and, wade loses nothing by being politically correct here.

MLB2K10King
02-28-2012, 12:49 PM
You guys are crazy if you say you would Pick Dirk Or Durant over Kobe with the game on the line, Kobe has a reputation of coming through in the Clutch. Dirk wasn't clutch until last year, Durant is still a baby in this league. Kobe has done it in more ways then one, if you think I'm crazy, just look at who the West team was differing to in the final two minutes of the game, look at who came up with the clutch plays in the final game of the Olympics, Look at the man who was still the go to guy in the final minutes of the game despite having the leagues most dominant player at the time on his team. He's not perfect, but no player is, they called Jordan a Ball Hog (did you guys forget about that?) They Said Magic was too flashy, and Bird was too Vanilla but at the end of the day they respect them for what they are. Kobe is a great.

And as for those of you who are saying that other players are giving him props because he's a grandfather now and no longer a threat, take him off of the Lakers and see how well they do.

Or even better yet, How many 33 year olds do you know of in the NBA that could lead the league in scoring with torn wrist ligaments, a new offensive system, and a half a hand to work with.

Kobe has a lot of Flaws, but in the final stages of his career, can we just celebrate him for how great he is, and enjoy the fact that at 33 years old he is still one of the Top five players in the game, why is that so hard, why must we criticize, what left does this man have to prove?

Lebron is still trying to win his first title, and prove he can play in the clutch, Wade is already wearing down, Durant has no jewelry yet, And the one player who is one title away from tying the Greatest Player of at least our era, is still criticized like he's some 3rd year bench player jacking up too many shots and messing up the flow of the offense. he's earned the right to try to take over the fourth quarter, respect it.

leftymo
02-28-2012, 12:49 PM
I never liked Kobe up until last year even though I knew he was the best in the game since MJ retired in 98. Up until last year that Prince James took the easier route to win a title, I appreciate Kobe more for his hard work and sticking with the Lakers through up and downs and winning 2 titles(after shaq). He is the best clutch shooter in todays game even though his fg% is low and takes too many shots, he is trying to will his team to win and working hard at it to. You can always respect and eventually become a fan of that


good post. Just keep in mind, he still doesn't take near the amount of shots MJ would take/game...

people forget that. They also forget that FG%'s have dramatically dropped in the last three decades. That's why Magic's FG% dwarfs MJ, and MJ dwarfs Kobe...

leftymo
02-28-2012, 12:50 PM
getting back to the OP... Kobe thinks Wade is the best player to dish out a cheap shot in the all-star game.

That is some high praise from Kobe... something Wade should be happy for.

Kashmir13579
02-28-2012, 12:50 PM
Overrated.

sammid21
02-28-2012, 12:56 PM
No matter what James did, his front office has proven incapable of running an NBA franchise for years upon years. Moving on.

The percentages don't outweigh the fact that his team would be better served trying to run plays instead of isolating. I haven't seen it updated this year, but basically, the Lakers are at 109 points per 100 possessions over the past decade. In a one possession game with under 24 seconds to play, the Lakers drop over 20 points per 100 possessions. Why? Because everyone in the universe knows Kobe is going to get the ball, not pass it, and force a shot. 3/10 times he hits it, 7/10 his team goes down.

This is why a guy like Chris Paul for instance should top anyones list when asking, "who do you want to have the ball with 15 seconds to go, down 1". Not only can he score, but you now have a guy who can create an easy look for another player if he needs to.

Youre right Cavs front office is incapable of putting a team together. I wouldve asked for Lebron input if i was as dumb as they are.

But dont you have more of a chance to lose if your role players buckle under the pressure of taking the last shot? Then the fault would be on your star player for not manning up and taking it since the star player is the star for a reason. I guess great players know when to deffer to an open player. Like Rose passed to Scalebrini for an open three (which he can make) to beat Miami and he missed. Had rose taken the shot, he probably wouldve won the game, but the role player buckled under the pressure of making it.

MLB2K10King
02-28-2012, 12:56 PM
I can get not liking a player, but I will never understand denying someone the respect that they deserve. I think Lebron is the biggest Chicken Sh** in the NBA but I respect him because he is an amazing Player. I thought Dirk was the ultimate P**** in the Clutch, but he took his Mavs to the finals and made me eat my words. You don't have to like him, but respect him. There is a reason he's being triple teamed in the 4th quarter, its because they know he will make those shots.

MLB2K10King
02-28-2012, 12:58 PM
Youre right Cavs front office is incapable of putting a team together. I wouldve asked for Lebron input if i was as dumb as they are.

But dont you have more of a chance to lose if your role players buckle under the pressure of taking the last shot? Then the fault would be on your star player for not manning up and taking it since the star player is the star for a reason. I guess great players know when to deffer to an open player. Like Rose passed to Scalebrini for an open three (which he can make) to beat Miami and he missed. Had rose taken the shot, he probably wouldve won the game, but the role player buckled under the pressure of making it.

Exactly, If you want to be called "King" play like one. If you want to be called the best in the league play like it.

Hawkeye15
02-28-2012, 12:58 PM
Youre right Cavs front office is incapable of putting a team together. I wouldve asked for Lebron input if i was as dumb as they are.

But dont you have more of a chance to lose if your role players buckle under the pressure of taking the last shot? Then the fault would be on your star player for not manning up and taking it since the star player is the star for a reason. I guess great players know when to deffer to an open player. Like Rose passed to Scalebrini for an open three (which he can make) to beat Miami and he missed. Had rose taken the shot, he probably wouldve won the game, but the role player buckled under the pressure of making it.

You are forgetting how many "role" players from the Lakers have bailed them out over the years.

Unless you have under 5 seconds on the clock, in which case you really have no choice but to give it to your best shot creator, its ALWAYS better to run a play, and having a superstar who can create a shot for himself, AND teammates, is always better. Fact is, when Kobe catches the ball with under 20 seconds to go in a tight game, he is shooting it, team be damned.

Gritz
02-28-2012, 12:59 PM
Kobe's a pimp

nickdymez
02-28-2012, 01:00 PM
James doesn't run the front office. James didn't turn down a trade to acquire Amare Stoudemire because JJ Hickson had, "upside". James didn't sign the crap he played with.

Kobe does want the ball in clutch time. To the detriment of his team most nights. As I have said a hundred times, do you remember any of the 110-120 misses he has had on game winners? Probably not. Do you remember any of the 35 makes? Probably. Humans have selective memory, so when you have simply taken 2-3 times as many attempts as anyone else, of course you will eventually make more. Therefore people forget allllllllll those misses and concentrate on the makes.

The leader of the Kobe hater club...

Anyway, who cares what anyone thinks. People who understand the game know what Kobe is. A WINNER. Advanced stats or not, he's won despite having a low "per" or "ws". Lebron had the highest of these i think and he's won nada.

Hawkeye15
02-28-2012, 01:00 PM
I can get not liking a player, but I will never understand denying someone the respect that they deserve. I think Lebron is the biggest Chicken Sh** in the NBA but I respect him because he is an amazing Player. I thought Dirk was the ultimate P**** in the Clutch, but he took his Mavs to the finals and made me eat my words. You don't have to like him, but respect him. There is a reason he's being triple teamed in the 4th quarter, its because they know he will make those shots.

Is someone here disrespecting Kobe? If you are referring to me for instance, I am simply giving facts. Its no disrespect to Kobe when I say he is roughly 35/130 on game winners over his career, and that the Lakers scoring efficiency drops over 20 points per 100 possessions in one possession games under 24 seconds. Those are recorded facts.

DCB/LAL
02-28-2012, 01:00 PM
And he's right. Regardless of the PSD posters who disagree with their "expertise" in the field of basketball (which isn't anymore than any fan who watches basketball regularly)... they are only a handful who disagree and they are the overwhelming minority.

nickdymez
02-28-2012, 01:01 PM
Is someone here disrespecting Kobe? If you are referring to me for instance, I am simply giving facts. Its no disrespect to Kobe when I say he is roughly 35/130 on game winners over his career, and that the Lakers scoring efficiency drops over 20 points per 100 possessions in one possession games under 24 seconds. Those are recorded facts.

State the most important fact of all.....

Hawkeye15
02-28-2012, 01:03 PM
The leader of the Kobe reality club...

Anyway, who cares what anyone thinks. People who understand the game know what Kobe is. A WINNER. Advanced stats or not, he's won despite having a low "per" or "ws". Lebron had the highest of these i think and he's won nada.

I am sure all top 10 players ever wished they were drafted by the best run franchise in modern sports. We can agree on that part.

fresh prince
02-28-2012, 01:09 PM
Agree and disagree. He can be maddening at times, but in others he's brilliant. Go watch the 4th quarter of the Raptors game. He basically gave the game away, and then stole it back with some big time shots down the stretch.

He can shoot the team out of the game in the 4th, but he can also single handily win the game. That's what you get with him and ask any other Laker fan if there's another player they would take over him in crunch time. You have to be willing to take the shots to make them.



Spot on.. This has probably been Kobe's worst 4th quarter / clutch year....

But youre right that Raptors game is a microcosm of his play down the stretch.. At times he is hell bent on shooting the rock no matter what. Then at others he appears willing to make the correct play on offense or defense as was the case in Toronto.

If Kobe can just find more balance then you have the ideal scenario.

mdm692
02-28-2012, 01:09 PM
Only 1 guy is on the same level as kobe when it comes to game winning shots carmelo(he is not better but about the same) dirk and kd are great but are below those 2.


*waits for haters and homers*

Redskins10
02-28-2012, 01:11 PM
I can name ten players better than Kobe today.

nickdymez
02-28-2012, 01:11 PM
I am sure all top 10 players ever wished they were drafted by the best run franchise in modern sports. We can agree on that part.

A lot of players are drafted to the Lakers. Whats your point? So since Kobe put in the hard work to make himself a great player, it means nothing because he was drafted to the Lakers? And the Spurs weren't anything until Duncan came. Meaning Tim put them over the top. I got an infinite amount of respect for Tim Duncan. I have zero for Lebron. Tim plays the game the right way, is loyal, isn't selfish, etc. I'm starting to feel the same way about Rose. You can tell he just wants to win. He doesn't want to dance and have a good time, he's determined to win. And i think he will do it in Chicago.

You want to blame Cleveland and make all these excuses for Lebron not winning there, but they had the best record in the league at least twice. Lebron was MVP twice. Coach of the year, another all-star, etc. He couldnt get it done. You know why?? He would rather pose before games and jerk on the sideline rather than work on a jumpshot or post game. Keep defending Lebron though, I defend kobe because I am a Lakers fan and he bought my team a championship (5). Whats your excuse?

MLB2K10King
02-28-2012, 01:11 PM
Is someone here disrespecting Kobe? If you are referring to me for instance, I am simply giving facts. Its no disrespect to Kobe when I say he is roughly 35/130 on game winners over his career, and that the Lakers scoring efficiency drops over 20 points per 100 possessions in one possession games under 24 seconds. Those are recorded facts.

I wasn't talking about you, I can respect facts. What I can't respect is someone saying he's over rated, or that people are just giving him props because he's old now and a non factor.

mdm692
02-28-2012, 01:12 PM
btw EVERY true bball fan would say the opinion of superstars and legends>>>>>>any psd poster, regarding bball of course.

nickdymez
02-28-2012, 01:13 PM
btw EVERY true bball fan would say the opinion of superstars and legends>>>>>>any psd poster, regarding bball of course.

Dont tell the ASC that (Advanced stat crew).

Evolution23
02-28-2012, 01:16 PM
Kobe, Melo, and Dirk... Not in any specific order but those are the guys I would pick.

Hawkeye15
02-28-2012, 01:18 PM
A lot of players are drafted to the Lakers. Whats your point? So since Kobe put in the hard work to make himself a great player, it means nothing because he was drafted to the Lakers? And the Spurs weren't anything until Duncan came. Meaning Tim put them over the top. I got an infinite amount of respect for Tim Duncan. I have zero for Lebron. Tim plays the game the right way, is loyal, isn't selfish, etc. I'm starting to feel the same way about Rose. You can tell he just wants to win. He doesn't want to dance and have a good time, he's determined to win. And i think he will do it in Chicago.

You want to blame Cleveland and make all these excuses for Lebron not winning there, but they had the best record in the league at least twice. Lebron was MVP twice. Coach of the year, another all-star, etc. He couldnt get it done. You know why?? He would rather pose before games and jerk on the sideline rather than work on a jumpshot or post game. Keep defending Lebron though, I defend kobe because I am a Lakers fan and he bought my team a championship (5). Whats your excuse?

My point sailed over your head. I have never denied Kobe's greatness, but Laker fans also downplay the fact he is a superstar (who made himself, where did I say he didn't, you are reaching again) who was drafted into a winning scenario and environment.

Excuses? You continue to mix up reality with excuses. Kobe Bryant would not have led those Cavs teams to anything either. Not even close.

mdm692
02-28-2012, 01:18 PM
Dont tell the ASC that (Advanced stat crew).

yeah i dont get that there are certain things you can analyze but "the clutch gene" and killer instinct cant. Thats something you have to witness in order to understand thats when superstars elevate their game to another level, or in brons case hide it :P. No but really you cant crunch it up into numbers and hope to get an answer.

Hawkeye15
02-28-2012, 01:19 PM
I wasn't talking about you, I can respect facts. What I can't respect is someone saying he's over rated, or that people are just giving him props because he's old now and a non factor.

Depends where you rate Kobe. If you say he is top 3-5, you are overrating him. If you say he isn't top 10 of all time, you are now underrating him.

Hawkeye15
02-28-2012, 01:21 PM
btw EVERY true bball fan would say the opinion of superstars and legends>>>>>>any psd poster, regarding bball of course.

I actually disagree with that. You have to understand to those guys, winning is all that matters. They fail to differentiate a player who was given a huge support system from a player who was not. They respect winners, when in reality, winners are generated from the best teams. Its the same thing as a Durant or Love saying Kobe is the best. They want what he has, so they have a skewed opinion on it, due to admiration.

Going further, lets take a look at the talent the greats have assembled when they become GM's.......

Its putrid in most cases.

MLB2K10King
02-28-2012, 01:21 PM
Depends where you rate Kobe. If you say he is top 3-5, you are overrating him. If you say he isn't top 10 of all time, you are now underrating him.

I agree with this sentiment

Hawkeye15
02-28-2012, 01:24 PM
yeah i dont get that there are certain things you can analyze but "the clutch gene" and killer instinct cant. Thats something you have to witness in order to understand thats when superstars elevate their game to another level, or in brons case hide it :P. No but really you cant crunch it up into numbers and hope to get an answer.

I absolutely agree that having a killer instinct can not be measured. Its a huge part of what makes Kobe an amazing player. Very few guys, and we are talking Bird, Jordan, Kobe, for instance, are absolute killers. They need winning like you and I need water. But sometimes that can actually hurt them, because their pride takes over. But without it, you are also at a disadvantage if you want to win as much as possible.

MagicBucsSox
02-28-2012, 01:26 PM
No one is more clutch than Paul pierce

AIRMAR72
02-28-2012, 01:27 PM
You guys are crazy if you say you would Pick Dirk Or Durant over Kobe with the game on the line, Kobe has a reputation of coming through in the Clutch. Dirk wasn't clutch until last year, Durant is still a baby in this league. Kobe has done it in more ways then one, if you think I'm crazy, just look at who the West team was differing to in the final two minutes of the game, look at who came up with the clutch plays in the final game of the Olympics, Look at the man who was still the go to guy in the final minutes of the game despite having the leagues most dominant player at the time on his team. He's not perfect, but no player is, they called Jordan a Ball Hog (did you guys forget about that?) They Said Magic was too flashy, and Bird was too Vanilla but at the end of the day they respect them for what they are. Kobe is a great.

And as for those of you who are saying that other players are giving him props because he's a grandfather now and no longer a threat, take him off of the Lakers and see how well they do.

Or even better yet, How many 33 year olds do you know of in the NBA that could lead the league in scoring with torn wrist ligaments, a new offensive system, and a half a hand to work with.

Kobe has a lot of Flaws, but in the final stages of his career, can we just celebrate him for how great he is, and enjoy the fact that at 33 years old he is still one of the Top five players in the game, why is that so hard, why must we criticize, what left does this man have to prove?

Lebron is still trying to win his first title, and prove he can play in the clutch, Wade is already wearing down, Durant has no jewelry yet, And the one player who is one title away from tying the Greatest Player of at least our era, is still criticized like he's some 3rd year bench player jacking up too many shots and messing up the flow of the offense. he's earned the right to try to take over the fourth quarter, respect it.

wow with JUST one Most Valuble Player award for entire 82game season in 15years, and you calling kobe great that is not GREATNESS stop abusing the word kobe had a GREAT career winning 5 titles but this closer stuff and label him great is simply overrated being 5 out of 156 attempts on game winning shots is not GREAT a former coach wrote a BOOK stating how much of a bonehead they starplayer(kobe) is does sound great Dwade is great why because he makes everyone better Lebron too is great jason kidd is great deron williams is great,chris paul is great, durant is great ,dirk is great, kevin love is great,steve nash is great scottie pippen was great kobe is very good and athletic just like vince carter, carmelo anthony, lathrel sprewell etc GREAT players make everyone better and still get there numbers that why we called them great

THE MTL
02-28-2012, 01:28 PM
Looking at some of the Laker fan's posts, I see where Kobe can hurt you in the 4th quarter. He literally tells everyone to GTFOMW (get the f-----k out of my way) and completely hogs it.

And while it is kinda inefficient, its so scary as an opponent of the Lakers. I would def have Kobe taking the game-winning shot for me.

nickdymez
02-28-2012, 01:30 PM
People who use the "MVP" argument are people that i dont even get into it with. The MVP award is the most flawed award in sports.

And i think Hawkeye should just admit that he hates Kobe and stop trying to be politically correct on the forums. Your comment went over my head because you contradict yourself

Bring The Heat
02-28-2012, 01:32 PM
I kinda agree with Hawkeye on this.. I mean come on Kobe had the luxury and advantage of being drafted into one of the biggest markets in the NBA with a history of winning championships, the LA Lakers.

Not to mention Kobe got to play with the most dominant center of all time in his PRIME Shaquille O'neal who could not be stopped and one of the best coaches in Phil Jackson to learn from. LeBron was drafted into a city who hasn't won a championship in God knows how many years in any sports and definitely not an attractive city for free agents to sign. I mean come on people talk about Lebron why didn't he bring people to Cleveland and stay? Let's be real and no disrespect to the people in Ohio. Who the hell would rather live in Cleveland instead of Miami, Los Angeles, New York, etc? If you say otherwise your lying to yourself. Not to mention who is the best player to play alongside Lebron during his tenure in Cleveland? Mo Williams? Lol... Kobe has had SHAQ(in his prime), Gasol, Bynum... He only had that rough stretch of what 3-4 years where lakers sucked but that was it. He demanded a trade and all of sudden they landed Gasol for nothing.

Kobe has worked hard and accomplished a lot and is a top 10 player of all time ok. But let's be real he was drafted into a GREAT situation and for most of his career has had a contending roster to work with. He's been spoiled in other words unlike many of the stars in our league.

Hawkeye15
02-28-2012, 01:34 PM
People who use the "MVP" argument are people that i dont even get into it with. The MVP award is the most flawed award in sports.

And i think Hawkeye should just admit that he hates Kobe and stop trying to be politically correct on the forums. Your comment went over my head because you contradict yourself

I agree with the first paragraph.

And I have said countless times I despise Kobe. Sorry you missed it, and trying to spin my words to catch me in a contradiction will do nothing but annoy you. But it doesn't change the fact that I evaluate him rationally and fair. I feel I owe that to any player, regardless of my feelings about them. I really don't care in the slightest if you agree or not, but I am viewed as a very rational poster.

Going forward, you can always choose to ignore me if my posts if you don't agree with them, which you never do.

nickdymez
02-28-2012, 01:34 PM
So in conclusion. Heat fans and Kobe haters are the only ones who disagree. Good discussion as always PSD.

nickdymez
02-28-2012, 01:38 PM
I agree with the first paragraph.

And I have said countless times I despise Kobe. Sorry you missed it, and trying to spin my words to catch me in a contradiction will do nothing but annoy you. But it doesn't change the fact that I evaluate him rationally and fair. I feel I owe that to any player, regardless of my feelings about them. I really don't care in the slightest if you agree or not, but I am viewed as a very rational poster.

Going forward, you can always choose to ignore me if my posts if you don't agree with them, which you never do.

I'm not like some of the people here, i don't get upset at words on my screen. And miss me with the talking all "proper" to provoke me. Just stop. You guys have your opinions of me here and im fine with it. I don't care. I tell the truth. With that said, Kobe has looked terrible this season. He has no trust in his teammates and it shows night in and out. But that's partly due to the fact that he has no other play makers on the roster that can create a shot for themselves. It is what it is.

Lakerhead4ever
02-28-2012, 01:44 PM
It's funny how most of u star freaks discredit Kobe in the clutch, but most players, old and new choose Kobe over Lebron, wade, Durant, dirk and melo.

ONLY FANS GO BY STATS, nba players can care less about kobe stats, because when that ball is in the air with no time on the clock, they are scared as ****.

That's why he's chosen all the time.

The funniest thing is A lot of ur guys chose dirk, wade, melo, Durant, but those exact players has a video on YouTube choosing Kobe. And these are players who actually play with Kobe, not fans who watch.

That killers-instinct gene is something very few players Have. Kobe is the only one who has it in today's game. Why? Well I guess it's because every other player care about the field goal percentage. Which is the difference between Kobe and the rest

Sactown
02-28-2012, 01:55 PM
So are we just going to ignore the last 4 clutch freethrows Kobe took!? 1/4!? 25%... I'll take Ben Wallace at the line over that...

sammid21
02-28-2012, 01:57 PM
I kinda agree with Hawkeye on this.. I mean come on Kobe had the luxury and advantage of being drafted into one of the biggest markets in the NBA with a history of winning championships, the LA Lakers.

Not to mention Kobe got to play with the most dominant center of all time in his PRIME Shaquille O'neal who could not be stopped and one of the best coaches in Phil Jackson to learn from. LeBron was drafted into a city who hasn't won a championship in God knows how many years in any sports and definitely not an attractive city for free agents to sign. I mean come on people talk about Lebron why didn't he bring people to Cleveland and stay? Let's be real and no disrespect to the people in Ohio. Who the hell would rather live in Cleveland instead of Miami, Los Angeles, New York, etc? If you say otherwise your lying to yourself. Not to mention who is the best player to play alongside Lebron during his tenure in Cleveland? Mo Williams? Lol... Kobe has had SHAQ(in his prime), Gasol, Bynum... He only had that rough stretch of what 3-4 years where lakers sucked but that was it. He demanded a trade and all of sudden they landed Gasol for nothing.

Kobe has worked hard and accomplished a lot and is a top 10 player of all time ok. But let's be real he was drafted into a GREAT situation and for most of his career has had a contending roster to work with. He's been spoiled in other words unlike many of the stars in our league.

Being drafted is different than choosing where to go and who you play with. What if Kobe was a bust? thats the risk when you draft someone. Lebron on the other hand CHOSE to go to a team with 2 other franchise players. Jordan took a city in Chicago and put it on the basketball map. To this day, Chicago isnt a place where stars want to go ex: Dwight. Yet he didnt back down and joined other stars to win. He carried the city and team to victory, something I wish Lebron had done, I wouldve been the biggest Lebron fan had he stayed. Instead he rather have fun first, win second. Kobe is win first. He started on the bench his first year and averaged less than 9 ppg. then he worked on his game to become great and lead his team to 2 title w/o shaq. I dont think Lebron can say that. I still respect Lebron game tho, just not him as a person/player

whitemamba33
02-28-2012, 01:57 PM
A Kobe thread goes up, and of course my man Hawkeye is here repeating the same things he always does.

The best part is that he always complains first. It's like "Oh not another Kobe thread!" and then he goes right into copying and pasting the standard arguments.


Classic.

Btw: not an insult. The man is a machine.

bballswishanet
02-28-2012, 02:02 PM
:D:D I thought hawkeye was getting owned enough but then...


A Kobe thread goes up, and of course my man Hawkeye is here repeating the same things he always does.

The best part is that he always complains first. It's like "Oh not another Kobe thread!" and then he goes right into copying and pasting the standard arguments.


Classic.

Btw: not an insult. The man is a machine.


:clap:


:D:D:D

nickdymez
02-28-2012, 02:07 PM
A Kobe thread goes up, and of course my man Hawkeye is here repeating the same things he always does.

The best part is that he always complains first. It's like "Oh not another Kobe thread!" and then he goes right into copying and pasting the standard arguments.


Classic.

Btw: not an insult. The man is a machine.

*Dead*

Kashmir13579
02-28-2012, 02:11 PM
A glorified Carmelo Anthony.

Hawkeye15
02-28-2012, 02:11 PM
I am fully aware I annoy Kobe fanboys, but you will excuse me for not caring. I simply post facts. I didn't make up that Kobe has made 30% of his game winners, well below some others. I didn't make up that the Lakers drop well over 20 points per 100 possessions in the last 24 seconds of a one possession game. I didn't make up that Kobe was drafted to the Lakers, the best run sports franchise of the past 30 years. I didn't make up that he has had more roster help than any player over the past 15 years. These are facts. If it bothers you that not everyone bows to their Kobe statue when they get home at night, that is not my problem.

Kobe Bryant will go down as a top 10 player ever. He already is. But trying to deny his faults, or his roster support, is not "owning" and argument. Its being a complete homer.

Same thread as we have had 50 times. Why would you predict a different outcome?

Bring The Heat
02-28-2012, 02:14 PM
Being drafted is different than choosing where to go and who you play with. What if Kobe was a bust? thats the risk when you draft someone. Lebron on the other hand CHOSE to go to a team with 2 other franchise players. Jordan took a city in Chicago and put it on the basketball map. To this day, Chicago isnt a place where stars want to go ex: Dwight. Yet he didnt back down and joined other stars to win. He carried the city and team to victory, something I wish Lebron had done, I wouldve been the biggest Lebron fan had he stayed. Instead he rather have fun first, win second. Kobe is win first. He started on the bench his first year and averaged less than 9 ppg. then he worked on his game to become great and lead his team to 2 title w/o shaq. I dont think Lebron can say that. I still respect Lebron game tho, just not him as a person/player

Because LeBron had no choice! No one wanted to come to Cleveland. He played out his years and didn't once go public and demand a trade. Free agency rolled around and saw the team wasn't going to get any better. Can you blame the guy for wanting to do something else with his life and do something different? In the 8 years Lebron played in Cleveland the organization couldn't manage to make a trade to land a viable second option to Lebron to take the pressure off him. Mo Williams was the best 2nd option Lebron ever had, thats pathetic. So many people talk like it so easy just to stay in Cleveland, seriously your lying to yourself if you had the opportunity lebron had you would take it stop trying to act cool like "Oh i would've stayed and been loyal".

Kobe in those down years cried, moaned and actually wanted to be traded and luckily the lakers were able to land Gasol and it brought them a championship. Kobe I'm sure if the lakers were still sucking years after that would've left eventually.

Raph12
02-28-2012, 02:15 PM
It's funny because Kobe showed how un-clutch (yes I'm creating words) he is when he missed a FT on the previous possession to put the game away... He's missed a lot of big shots this season, any real Lakers fan (not Kobe fan) can admit to this.

Bring The Heat
02-28-2012, 02:15 PM
Its easy to stay a star player stayed "loyal" and when they had teammates to play with. Obviously Jordan stayed loyal because he had Pippen one of the greatest defensive players at his position. Obviously durant going to stay loyal because he has a great team in OKC and star players in Westbrook/Harden. Its easy for Kobe to stay loyal because he had Shaq, Gasol, Bynum. I think everyone gets my point. Lebron had nobody in Cleveland and his talent would rioted there for many years to come with no contending roster.

Kashmir13579
02-28-2012, 02:16 PM
These are the same NBA players that voted Kobe in as the highest basketball IQ a few years ago.

nickdymez
02-28-2012, 02:22 PM
These are the same NBA players that voted Kobe in as the highest basketball IQ a few years ago.

What are you saying?

leftymo
02-28-2012, 02:43 PM
It's funny because Kobe showed how un-clutch (yes I'm creating words) he is when he missed a FT on the previous possession to put the game away... He's missed a lot of big shots this season, any real Lakers fan (not Kobe fan) can admit to this.


Yes. I will agree. But I can also say without a doubt that he has more game winning clutch baskets down the stretch of games, important games, and NBA finals than Lebron, Wade, Rose, Melo, McGrady, Durant, and any other active player COMBINED.

Game winners, game tying shots in the finals... in the playoffs? Who do you think put the Suns away in Phoenix?

Who put the Nuggets away in Denver?

There is no doubt. If you want to talk about this season sure. If you want to talk a body of work... nobody in the league is remotely close to Kobe. Nobody.

carnage101
02-28-2012, 02:44 PM
Ask any true Laker fan how much they want Kobe taking over in the 4th quarter this season.

He's unarguably the most detrimental 4th quarter player in the NBA.

its more like during crunch time if and when kobe passes pau misses bynum misses metta misses the hope completely.

leftymo
02-28-2012, 02:44 PM
I can name ten players better than Kobe today.

I see your ten players, add all of their championships, and they still fall short to Kobe.

leftymo
02-28-2012, 02:50 PM
Is someone here disrespecting Kobe? If you are referring to me for instance, I am simply giving facts. Its no disrespect to Kobe when I say he is roughly 35/130 on game winners over his career, and that the Lakers scoring efficiency drops over 20 points per 100 possessions in one possession games under 24 seconds. Those are recorded facts.


The uneducated like to drop these 35/130 facts on game winners, to properly compare you will need to bring up all of the players. The point here is the eyeball test. Kobe's 35 makes probably dwarf the next highest guy. Being 2/2 in game winners doesn't mean you are the greatest ever.

Playing essentially 2 weeks of great basketball like Jeremy Lin doesn't mean he's better than John Stockton.

Context. I don't really care that Wade said. I don't care that Larry Bird would rather play with Kobe than Lebron. I don't care that most stat geeks who don't watch basketball point to Kobe's inefficiency in crunch time. I do care that the great majority of NBA General Managers have consistently voted Kobe Bryant to take the game winning shot over the past several years. They are better at evaluating basketball than any fan, media member, or statistical category...

Most of whom are former players.

Hawkeye15
02-28-2012, 02:54 PM
The uneducated like to drop these 35/130 facts on game winners, to properly compare you will need to bring up all of the players. The point here is the eyeball test. Kobe's 35 makes probably dwarf the next highest guy. Being 2/2 in game winners doesn't mean you are the greatest ever.

Playing essentially 2 weeks of great basketball like Jeremy Lin doesn't mean he's better than John Stockton.

Context. I don't really care that Wade said. I don't care that Larry Bird would rather play with Kobe than Lebron. I don't care that most stat geeks who don't watch basketball point to Kobe's inefficiency in crunch time. I do care that the great majority of NBA General Managers have consistently voted Kobe Bryant to take the game winning shot over the past several years. They are better at evaluating basketball than any fan, media member, or statistical category...

Most of whom are former players.

Its been brought up in context before. If you missed it, dig it up.

The truly great closers teams offensive efficiency doesn't drop off a cliff in crunchtime.

I have touched on former players and their opinions many times. Look at the rosters most of them assemble. They wouldn't know how to evaluate talent if it hit them in the face many times. Look at the best GM's. The majority of them never played in the NBA.

hgtiger32
02-28-2012, 02:56 PM
Sure Kobe has struggled in 4th this year but I'm not going to bet AGAINST Kobe.

ChiSox219
02-28-2012, 02:57 PM
Chris Paul for last possession, KD for last shot.

nickdymez
02-28-2012, 02:58 PM
Its been brought up in context before. If you missed it, dig it up.

The truly great closers teams offensive efficiency doesn't drop off a cliff in crunchtime.

I have touched on former players and their opinions many times. Look at the rosters most of them assemble. They wouldn't know how to evaluate talent if it hit them in the face many times. Look at the best GM's. The majority of them never played in the NBA.

So your better than ex players, current players, and Gm's at evaluating talent in the NBA?

MLB2K10King
02-28-2012, 02:58 PM
It's funny because Kobe showed how un-clutch (yes I'm creating words) he is when he missed a FT on the previous possession to put the game away... He's missed a lot of big shots this season, any real Lakers fan (not Kobe fan) can admit to this.

You do realize he had a broken nose, and a slight concussion right?

MLB2K10King
02-28-2012, 03:04 PM
A glorified Carmelo Anthony.

My Friend, Kobe was in the league when Carmelo was a snot nosed 8th grader. Carmelo can be called a glorified Kobe. But to Compare Kobe to Carmelo is disrespectful to everything Kobe has done. I may not agree with Hawkeye but at least he gives facts, you just seem to make a number of inaccurate statements, and expect to use it as a fact.

ChiSox219
02-28-2012, 03:06 PM
Most bad shots all-time: Kobe or Iverson?

bballswishanet
02-28-2012, 03:11 PM
good point lefty...

Also in the past 3 months, NBA GMs say they want Kobe taking the last shot... op will be edited

Cano4prez
02-28-2012, 03:14 PM
Too bad he isn't any of those, next..

SwatTeam
02-28-2012, 03:15 PM
Why do people on these message boards care what other athletes say about other athletes. I respect Wade and the other players who praised Kobe. Kobe is a great player and he hits clutch shots but I'd rather have a player pass the ball to the wide open player rather than chuck up a shot while being double teamed or tripled team. Isn't that what basketball is all about. The pure form of basketball is team work and taking advantage of the mismatches and lack of defensive rotations. Now its an iso game and Kobe is at the forefront of leading that movement since MJ retired. Not a criticism just interesting to see the bipolar responses when someone like Lebron plays the game the way it was meant to be played but gets criticized for it - even though he should be criticized for playing way too passive - basically the oppposite end of the spectrum of Kobe. A Bruce Willis vs. Mr Glass comparison for those who were intelligent enough to see what I did there.

Anyways, I don't weigh the opinions of any athletes heavily when it comes to talent evaluation. MJ was the greatest player of all time and he drafted Kwame Brown and Adam Morrison with his lottery picks. The guy traded Rip Hamilton in his prime for Jerry Stackhouse. Larry Bird although not as bad as MJ as a GM is not that great of a talent evaluator either. If Pat Riley, Jerry West, Red Auerbach (RIP), and even Jim Paxson comes out and give their opinion then I'll consider it more heavily. Otherwise, most athletes are basically morons. Just put the ball in the basket and try not to lose all your money. Leave the talent evaluations to the professionals.

BigBongTheory
02-28-2012, 03:17 PM
This is beating a dead horse. He has won 5 championships, he's 5th all-time in scoring, this is his 16th year in the league. He isn't the best player in the league anymore and as a laker fan I can see that. he isn't the player he used to be, and he isn't shooting very well in the clutch (5 mins. or less in 4th quarter). Is everyone happy? Is that what people want to hear while bringing up this argument once a week, EVERY single week? I'm not going to bash and disrespect Kobe 16 years into his career, Decline will happen, maybe it's happening now..I've never seen a player that is qualified as a top ten player all-time get **** on as much as Kobe, especially if this is decline. Oh well, He's declining so i'm going to **** on him now because he can't put up 30ppg when he's 48.

Chronz
02-28-2012, 03:20 PM
I would take Kobe to take a game winning shot, I would take CP3/Westbrook to decide who gets to take the last second shot.

Bring The Heat
02-28-2012, 03:20 PM
Why do people on these message boards care what other athletes say about other athletes. I respect Wade and the other players who praised Kobe. Kobe is a great player and he hits clutch shots but I'd rather have a player pass the ball to the wide open player rather than chuck up a shot while being double teamed or tripled team. Isn't that what basketball is all about. The pure form of basketball is team work and taking advantage of the mismatches and lack of defensive rotations. Now its an iso game and Kobe is at the forefront of leading that movement since MJ retired. Not a criticism just interesting to see the bipolar responses when someone like Lebron plays the game the way it was meant to be played but gets criticized for it - even though he should be criticized for playing way too passive - basically the oppposite end of the spectrum of Kobe. A Bruce Willis vs. Mr Glass comparison for those who were intelligent enough to see what I did there.

Anyways, I don't weigh the opinions of any athletes heavily when it comes to talent evaluation. MJ was the greatest player of all time and he drafted Kwame Brown and Adam Morrison with his lottery picks. The guy traded Rip Hamilton in his prime for Jerry Stackhouse. Larry Bird although not as bad as MJ as a GM is not that great of a talent evaluator either. If Pat Riley, Jerry West, Red Auerbach (RIP), and even Jim Paxson comes out and give their opinion then I'll consider it more heavily. Otherwise, most athletes are basically morons. Just put the ball in the basket and try not to lose all your money. Leave the talent evaluations to the professionals.

LOL epic post :clap: agree with everything especially about great players being morons at evaluating talent

Hawkeye15
02-28-2012, 03:34 PM
Why do people on these message boards care what other athletes say about other athletes. I respect Wade and the other players who praised Kobe. Kobe is a great player and he hits clutch shots but I'd rather have a player pass the ball to the wide open player rather than chuck up a shot while being double teamed or tripled team. Isn't that what basketball is all about. The pure form of basketball is team work and taking advantage of the mismatches and lack of defensive rotations. Now its an iso game and Kobe is at the forefront of leading that movement since MJ retired. Not a criticism just interesting to see the bipolar responses when someone like Lebron plays the game the way it was meant to be played but gets criticized for it - even though he should be criticized for playing way too passive - basically the oppposite end of the spectrum of Kobe. A Bruce Willis vs. Mr Glass comparison for those who were intelligent enough to see what I did there.

Anyways, I don't weigh the opinions of any athletes heavily when it comes to talent evaluation. MJ was the greatest player of all time and he drafted Kwame Brown and Adam Morrison with his lottery picks. The guy traded Rip Hamilton in his prime for Jerry Stackhouse. Larry Bird although not as bad as MJ as a GM is not that great of a talent evaluator either. If Pat Riley, Jerry West, Red Auerbach (RIP), and even Jim Paxson comes out and give their opinion then I'll consider it more heavily. Otherwise, most athletes are basically morons. Just put the ball in the basket and try not to lose all your money. Leave the talent evaluations to the professionals.

careful, or posts like this will get you lumped in with the Kobe hater club. No need to be rational on this subject.

Kobes a Killer
02-28-2012, 03:38 PM
:horse:

lol this

geez

BigBongTheory
02-28-2012, 03:44 PM
Thinking about guys like Tim Duncan, and Spurs fans. Or any other all-time player connected at the hip with a franchise for that matter. I have a ton of respect for both him and San Antonio's fans. He isn't the same player he once was, he's still putting up nice games with good rest, but when his decline started to show itself they didn't all gather up in occupy San Antonio and start bashing Tim, It's going to happen. There are night's he will go 3-19 from the floor, there isn't near the negativeness and hate from his own fans there in San Antonio compared to LA. I guess some Laker fans are just spoiled, want him to hit every shot he takes, especially when his game has been centered around jump-shooting, as has come with his age. I understand he isn't being used the right way so far into the season, and Mike Brown is wearing him down. But if your 33, in your 16th year playing 42 minutes in back to back games, your going to get sluggish. And i'm not saying things are fine the way they are right now, and that nothing has to change with the way Bryant's playing, especially his shot selection at times, but I'm not going to bash him continually and go with the new trend, when doing that is going to accomplish absolutely nothing, rather I'm just going to sit back and try to enjoy the remaining years of an all-time laker, and an all-time player. The time to **** on him was a decade ago when he was still proving himself, still trying to accomplish greatness, not after he's done as much as he has, for Basketball, the city and franchise of LA.

shizzle09
02-28-2012, 03:57 PM
wade's right. Kobe has been clutch all throughout his career and aint nothin changed.

BigBongTheory
02-28-2012, 04:03 PM
I am fully aware I annoy Kobe fanboys, but you will excuse me for not caring. I simply post facts. I didn't make up that Kobe has made 30% of his game winners, well below some others. I didn't make up that the Lakers drop well over 20 points per 100 possessions in the last 24 seconds of a one possession game. I didn't make up that Kobe was drafted to the Lakers, the best run sports franchise of the past 30 years. I didn't make up that he has had more roster help than any player over the past 15 years. These are facts. If it bothers you that not everyone bows to their Kobe statue when they get home at night, that is not my problem.

Kobe Bryant will go down as a top 10 player ever. He already is. But trying to deny his faults, or his roster support, is not "owning" and argument. Its being a complete homer.

Same thread as we have had 50 times. Why would you predict a different outcome?

As a laker fan, I don't get uncomfortable with an outside opinion like yours, it's good to talk about things like this. It's some of the laker fans themselves, because I know i'm always watching the same game they are, at the same time, and within the same structure of fans as a whole. I understand where you are coming from, and it's always nice to hear what other fans are thinking about when talking about a different franchise. I respect you opinion fully, and the stats you have brought up there are correct, so there isn't much to disagree with, just have to keep believing we will get those numbers up, and that going into the playoffs we can gain a head full of steam and try and make a solid push again.

ThunderousDemon
02-28-2012, 04:05 PM
He's amazing considering his age and how many minutes he's played.

Hawkeye15
02-28-2012, 04:10 PM
As a laker fan, I don't get uncomfortable with an outside opinion like yours, it's good to talk about things like this. It's some of the laker fans themselves, because I know i'm always watching the same game they are, at the same time, and within the same structure of fans as a whole. I understand where you are coming from, and it's always nice to hear what other fans are thinking about when talking about a different franchise. I respect you opinion fully, and the stats you have brought up there are correct, so there isn't much to disagree with, just have to keep believing we will get those numbers up, and that going into the playoffs we can gain a head full of steam and try and make a solid push again.

It can be very tough to seperate yourself emotionally from your team and their players. But in order to be able to debate in a rational manner, it has to happen. Some fans are just so protective of their team and their players, they become dysfunctional when discussing them.

Nothing wrong in believing in your guy, or your team. I WANT my Wolves to make the playoffs, and its within reach. But I am not going to make a fool of myself trying to shoot down anyone who may lay out rationally why the Wolves will miss the playoffs.

Hawkeye15
02-28-2012, 04:11 PM
He's amazing considering his age and how many minutes he's played.

he really is. The length of time that he has been a top 5 player just blows me away. Its one of the biggest reason I have him in my top 10 ever.

LA_Raiders
02-28-2012, 04:14 PM
BSPN says he is the 7th best player...

Chronz
02-28-2012, 04:18 PM
Being drafted is different than choosing where to go and who you play with.
Not in Kobes case

Chronz
02-28-2012, 04:20 PM
btw EVERY true bball fan would say the opinion of superstars and legends>>>>>>any psd poster, regarding bball of course.
Depends on the topic

NBA players have said alot of dumb things over the years and have proven to be retards in the front office. Even MJ, the greatest of all time is an absolute idiot outside his court abilities.

Chronz
02-28-2012, 04:22 PM
Dont tell the ASC that (Advanced stat crew).
Bait?

Chronz
02-28-2012, 04:23 PM
yeah i dont get that there are certain things you can analyze but "the clutch gene" and killer instinct cant. Thats something you have to witness in order to understand thats when superstars elevate their game to another level, or in brons case hide it :P. No but really you cant crunch it up into numbers and hope to get an answer.

But all those #'s are facts and something we have witnessed. Whats your point?

Chronz
02-28-2012, 04:27 PM
Most bad shots all-time: Kobe or Iverson?

Not even close bro

nickdymez
02-28-2012, 04:29 PM
Bait?

Did you take it?

nickdymez
02-28-2012, 04:30 PM
Depends on the topic

NBA players have said alot of dumb things over the years and have proven to be retards in the front office. Even MJ, the greatest of all time is an absolute idiot outside his court abilities.

Same with most PSD posters right? Most PSD posters are biased as hell.

KB-Pau-DH2012
02-28-2012, 04:34 PM
Wade just saying this so Kobe won't whoop that *** this Sunday.

Kashmir13579
02-28-2012, 04:47 PM
What are you saying?
I'm saying Kobe's basketball IQ isn't leaps and bounds ahead of Jamal Crawford.

My Friend, Kobe was in the league when Carmelo was a snot nosed 8th grader. Carmelo can be called a glorified Kobe. But to Compare Kobe to Carmelo is disrespectful to everything Kobe has done. I may not agree with Hawkeye but at least he gives facts, you just seem to make a number of inaccurate statements, and expect to use it as a fact.

To call 'Melo a glorified Kobe is even more of an insult than how i put it. As far as me giving facts, this conversation has been beat to the death and i'm not as patient as Hawkeye in doing legwork i have already done numerous times. Kobe as great as he is, is highly flawed. The fact that people still have him in their top 3, and next to M.J. all-time, makes Kobe the most overrated player of all time IMO.

Chronz
02-28-2012, 04:52 PM
Same with most PSD posters right? Most PSD posters are biased as hell.

Yea thats kind of my point, this isnt rocket science, there is no special insight from playing in the NBA. Some of the best/most strategic minds we have in the game come from short balding white dudes. Personally that probably comes from the fact that they couldnt make the league and spend more time watching, dissecting, replaying possessions rather than playing them.

NO ONE IS ABOVE ANYONE. All that matters is how much time you spend studying the sport you love. The only difference between us and athletes is that they are more athletic, shocker I know. However I wont stop you from thinking your lower than them, thats totally up to you. Just know that there people like me who dont take what they say as gospel, we want EVIDENCE.

Kashmir13579
02-28-2012, 04:54 PM
Not even close bro

'Melo or Iverson.

Kashmir13579
02-28-2012, 04:57 PM
Yea thats kind of my point, this isnt rocket science, there is no special insight from playing in the NBA. Some of the best/most strategic minds we have in the game come from short balding white dudes. Personally that probably comes from the fact that they couldnt make the league and spend more time watching, dissecting, replaying possessions rather than playing them.

NO ONE IS ABOVE ANYONE. All that matters is how much time you spend studying the sport you love. The only difference between us and athletes is that they are more athletic, shocker I know.

On top of that, what percentage of NBA players would you suspect take the time to look at the game analytically? I mean, they have the god given talent, why would they waste their time with the numbers.

RaiderLakersA's
02-28-2012, 04:59 PM
He's amazing considering his age and how many minutes he's played.

I thought that what was the point of this thread, but clearly 7 - 8 pages later, people have taken this topic down the usual, predictable path to dead horse-dom.

Chronz
02-28-2012, 05:01 PM
On top of that, what percentage of NBA players would you suspect take the time to look at the game analytically? I mean, they have the god given talent, why would they waste their time with the numbers.
You mean the Ron Artest type vs the Shane Battier type. Im going to go out on a limb and say most players are like Ron Artest and dont care for advanced scouting reports.

Hawkeye15
02-28-2012, 05:01 PM
I thought that what was the point of this thread, but clearly 7 - 8 pages later, people have taken this topic down the usual, predictable path to dead horsedom.

it really has become so predictable on how any thread involving Kobe, LeBron, the Knicks, the Heat, or the Bulls will end.

nickdymez
02-28-2012, 05:06 PM
Yea thats kind of my point, this isnt rocket science, there is no special insight from playing in the NBA. Some of the best/most strategic minds we have in the game come from short balding white dudes. Personally that probably comes from the fact that they couldnt make the league and spend more time watching, dissecting, replaying possessions rather than playing them.

NO ONE IS ABOVE ANYONE. All that matters is how much time you spend studying the sport you love. The only difference between us and athletes is that they are more athletic, shocker I know.

Im more athletic than Larry Bird ever was... lol... I understand your point though

Cfrey
02-28-2012, 05:07 PM
Its unfortunate that this conversation is never ending and a right answer is almost never going to be found.. especially since people aren't willing to look at the facts lol.. its funny how Kobe fans have the sole belief that he is the best without looking at the sheer numbers..

its already been said but the amount of shots he takes is ridiculous.. if Lebron shot like Kobe did people would be infuriated.. they would be going off on Lebron.. but since its kobe its okay..? makes sense right lol

anyway Lebron will keep shooting 55 percent from the field and keep being one of the top scorers in the league but somehow he isn't the best player..?

hahaha it makes absolute no sense.. and in fact, after watching the all star game its even MORE clear to me than it ever has been that Kobe isn't even the SECOND best player in the NBA

PatsSoxKnicks
02-28-2012, 05:30 PM
With the game on the line
Trailing by one or two points, or tied, in the final 24 seconds of regular-season and playoff games since 1996-97, with a minimum of 30 shots. From Alok Pattani of ESPN Stats & Information.



Player Makes Attempts FG%
Carmelo Anthony 21 44 47.7
Chris Paul 14 31 45.2
Shawn Marion 12 30 40
Brandon Roy 12 30 40
Hedo Turkoglu 12 30 40
Rashard Lewis 18 46 39.1
Glenn Robinson 14 36 38.9
Deron Williams 14 36 38.9
Mike Bibby 15 39 38.5
Dirk Nowitzki 25 65 38.5
Jalen Rose 12 32 37.5
Tim Duncan 23 62 37.1
Eddie Jones 13 36 36.1
Karl Malone 11 31 35.5
Ben Gordon 17 49 34.7
Chris Webber 18 52 34.6
Raymond Felton 12 36 33.3
LeBron James 23 69 33.3
Ray Allen 23 70 32.9
Gilbert Arenas 13 40 32.5
Vince Carter 31 96 32.3
Steve Francis 14 44 31.8
DamonStoudamire 12 38 31.6
Nick Van Exel 16 51 31.4
Kobe Bryant 36 115 31.3
Jason Terry 14 45 31.1
Allen Iverson 21 68 30.9
Kevin Garnett 22 72 30.6
Ron Artest 9 30 30
Allan Houston 12 41 29.3
Entire league 2038 6861 29.7

http://espn.go.com/blog/truehoop/post/_/id/24200/the-truth-about-kobe-bryant-in-crunch-time

I'm interested to see how the Kobe-philes could disprove something as simple as makes, misses and FG%.

Hawkeye15
02-28-2012, 05:34 PM
further proof that CP3 is THE guy you want with the game on the line.

Kashmir13579
02-28-2012, 05:48 PM
further proof that CP3 is THE guy you want with the game on the line.

Not only because of FG%.

The Lakers "clutch-time" offense has been horrible with Kobe. Conversely, The Hornets have been consistantly at the top of the pack. There is more to game winners than simply hitting the shot. People don't realize 'Melo is assisted on his game winners more than most. He isn't leading the league the NBA in GW/FG% by taking the shots Kobe takes at the buzzer.

Hawkeye15
02-28-2012, 05:51 PM
Not only because of FG%.

The Lakers "clutch-time" offense has been horrible with Kobe. Conversely, The Hornets have been consistantly at the top of the pack. There is more to game winners than simply hitting the shot. People don't realize 'Melo is assisted on his game winners more than most. He isn't leading the league the NBA in GW/FG% by taking the shots Kobe takes at the buzzer.

absolutely not just because of his FG%. He is the games best creator, on top of shooting 45% on those last possession shots.

A drop from 109 points per 100 possessions to around 84 points per 100 possessions in the closing seconds of a tight game for the Lakers. Its easy to explain why.

Melo has plays run for him, to get a shot in the flow, not taking in 2+ defenders and shooting a 27 foot fallaway cause, "I'm the man!".

Kashmir13579
02-28-2012, 05:54 PM
absolutely not just because of his FG%. He is the games best creator, on top of shooting 45% on those last possession shots.

A drop from 109 points per 100 possessions to around 84 points per 100 possessions in the closing seconds of a tight game for the Lakers. Its easy to explain why.

Melo has plays run for him, to get a shot in the flow, not taking in 2+ defenders and shooting a 27 foot fallaway cause, "I'm the man!".

Beautifully ****in' illustrated.

ChitownSports16
02-28-2012, 05:59 PM
Kobe>KD>Dirk>Wade>Rose>Melo>Lin>LBJ

LakersMaster24
02-28-2012, 06:40 PM
I LOVE your signature. Its exactly what I told Laker fans you were getting with Brown. Its amazing to me he won COY, or that anyone expected him to be able to run an offense. All he did in Cleveland was isolate LeBron on the left side of the floor. When the defense figured that out, he isolated LeBron on the right side of the floor. He doesn't have any idea what to do outside give the ball to his star wing and just stare at the play hoping something awesome happens.

Yea he is pretty bad on offense. Although I cant complain on defense...Lakers are a solid defensive team.

I hope Brian Shaw was still here :cry:

Chronz
02-28-2012, 07:33 PM
Im more athletic than Larry Bird ever was... lol... I understand your point though
I always considered innate balance and hand eye coordination to be an athletic trait.

Hawkeye15
02-28-2012, 08:08 PM
I always considered innate balance and hand eye coordination to be an athletic trait.

you ****ing stole my reply....

Yeah, his balance and hand eye coordination were very elite, as was his touch. I have always thought of those as athletic traits.

kArSoN RyDaH
02-28-2012, 08:31 PM
Kobe hasn't been too clutch lately, but the thing about Kobe separating him from others is that he will keep going for those moments.

Kobe doesn't shy away from the big shot.

There's a reason players in the NBA respect Kobe.

Lakeshow24KB
02-28-2012, 08:38 PM
Lol why it's funny cause I have 5 championships.

Probably Kobe's response to all these guys saying he isn't clutch.

BigBongTheory
02-28-2012, 09:11 PM
Its unfortunate that this conversation is never ending and a right answer is almost never going to be found.. especially since people aren't willing to look at the facts lol.. its funny how Kobe fans have the sole belief that he is the best without looking at the sheer numbers..

its already been said but the amount of shots he takes is ridiculous.. if Lebron shot like Kobe did people would be infuriated.. they would be going off on Lebron.. but since its kobe its okay..? makes sense right lol

anyway Lebron will keep shooting 55 percent from the field and keep being one of the top scorers in the league but somehow he isn't the best player..?

hahaha it makes absolute no sense.. and in fact, after watching the all star game its even MORE clear to me than it ever has been that Kobe isn't even the SECOND best player in the NBA

This thread wasn't about who the best player in the nba is, it's about who would you want taking the last shot. That being said, Kobe isn't the best player in the league. But I don't call anyone the best in any respective league, and the people that do, forget to respect the rest of the people at other positions on the floor/field. It's like the NFL, someone always says someone is the best, forgetting there is a Defense that plays the same game. How do you compare someone's offensive stats, to another players defensive stats? You dont. So it's irrelevant, and illogical to call someone the best in an entire league. Dwight doesn't do the same things a PG does. As Lebron doesn't do the things a center does. And comparing Lebron and Kobe's fg% is another topic that is irrelevant. Kobe has lost a step, he isn't the player he was when he was 23, His game has grown more and more around jump shooting, and his game throughout his career has been centered around jump shooting, while Lebron still a fresh 27, with a ton of pep left, drives to the basket, which has been a major part of his game during his career, which wont be when his hits 33. When Lebron is 33, then you can halfway compare.

Paul/Nash/etc
Kobe/Wade
Durant/Lebron
Love/Aldridge/Gasol etc
Dwight/Bynum

Are all the best at their respective positions, those are in no order, and I left out some.

whitemamba33
02-28-2012, 09:13 PM
As good as throwing around stats makes us all feel, I have a hard time buying in completely to the whole approach. If the question is who's hands do I want the ball in for the last shot, the answer, for me anyways, will always be "depends". While stats are useful in describing who's been successful overall, they don't reveal what the teams needs are, what the defense is taking away, what other options are available, or what play is being drawn up.

For example, Ray Allen is on that list. If it's the coach's decision to go for a game winning three, I'd MUCH rather him take that shot than 99% of that list of 30 players. But this means I have to get him open, and I probably have to inbound the ball to somebody else first. I also have to consider who's on D. In this specific situation, he's my man.

If i'm looking for two points and I see a defensive weakness down low, i'm going in to KG or Karl Malone. This burns a little more time off the clock because I have to feed it to the post, and I'm screwed in a double team. But if my decision is to go down low, those are the guys I'm looking to.

The plus side to a guy like Kobe Bryant is that he can do almost anything well. He doesn't shoot better than Ray Allen, he doesn't have a better inside game then Karl Malone, but he has a wide range of skills that make him useful in any situation. He can he can always get a shot off no matter where you put him. He's also always been a fairly good free throw shooter, and fairly good at drawing shooting fouls. I don't have numbers for his clutch free throw percentage, but I'd imagine they are fairly strong. This is something that isn't necessarily reflected in a list of percentages, but is a valuable asset in the long run. The fact that you can go to him in almost every situation, it goes a long way in explaining why he has so many attempts (in addition to his competitive drive).

A few years ago Ray Allen, Kevin Garnett, and Paul Pierce were all asked which of the three of them they'd rather take the last shot in the clutch. Kevin Garnett's answer was Ray Allen, Paul Pierce's answer was Ray Allen, and Ray Allen's answer was "the open man". Regardless of who's done it best in the past, it is the situation that dictates which player would be most valuable in the clutch.

Cano4prez
02-28-2012, 09:21 PM
Kobe hasn't been too clutch lately, but the thing about Kobe separating him from others is that he will keep going for those moments.

Kobe doesn't shy away from the big shot.

There's a reason players in the NBA respect Kobe.

Which in this case is a negative thing so why are you acting like it's something that pushes him over the top?

SportsAndrew25
02-28-2012, 10:17 PM
Very funny that he is saying this after he knocked the taste outta him on Sunday and before they tango again this Sunday.

Kashmir13579
02-29-2012, 12:53 AM
I always considered innate balance and hand eye coordination to be an athletic trait.
What player with limited strength and vertical would you say has come closest to Bird in these particular areas?

KB-Pau-DH2012
02-29-2012, 01:11 AM
Which in this case is a negative thing so why are you acting like it's something that pushes him over the top?

He never said anything about "putting him over the top", he said that it separates him from others in that it makes him unique. There's not many in this soft league that go for the KILL. They give up the shot to save their percentages.

naps
02-29-2012, 04:39 AM
The fact is Kobe is one of the most inefficient clutch players in the league. I saw a link last week (by tredigs or someone else?) that had all the stats. Kobe takes so many of those shots and makes few of them but those few get highlighted.

C-Style
02-29-2012, 01:03 PM
Kobe is more clutch than Lebron, no question

LongIslandIcedZ
02-29-2012, 01:45 PM
Dirk is clutch.

naps
02-29-2012, 02:09 PM
Kobe is more clutch than Lebron, no question

No question?? Can you back it up since your claim is so strong? Stats and evidence say otherwise.

beliges
02-29-2012, 02:57 PM
The fact is Kobe is one of the most inefficient clutch players in the league. I saw a link last week (by tredigs or someone else?) that had all the stats. Kobe takes so many of those shots and makes few of them but those few get highlighted.

Not sure how you are attempting to define "clutch." But when a majority of GMs, Coaches, Former and Current players, past legends all attest to Kobe being one of the most clutch performers of all time, that should be more than enough. Clutchness is not something that can be measured by statistics. The fact remains Kobe was the closer on 5 championship teams. That in and of itslef is enough to prove to you or anyone else that he is one of the most clutch players to ever play the game of basketball. Nobody is saying at this current stage, in his 16th season he is better than LBJ who is in his prime. But comparing "clutchness" between the two of them throughout their careers, well its just not much of a comparison. One is known for closing out championships and the other is known for choking down the stretch, or at least refusing to take the shot.

showtym24
02-29-2012, 03:46 PM
He remembers that GW in 09/10.

Chronz
02-29-2012, 03:53 PM
What player with limited strength and vertical would you say has come closest to Bird in these particular areas?

Nash seems to be the obvious answer, basically any great shooter or guys who can rack up steals without overwhelming quickness/length.

C-Style
02-29-2012, 04:26 PM
No question?? Can you back it up since your claim is so strong? Stats and evidence say otherwise.

If Bron had the balls to take all the shots Kobe has taken over the years his clutch fg will drop to 20.

PatsSoxKnicks
02-29-2012, 04:48 PM
If Bron had the balls to take all the shots Kobe has taken over the years his clutch fg will drop to 20.

Yeah but taking the last second shot isn't always the best thing for getting the win. I mean is it better to take a fadeaway 20 ft jump shot with 2 defenders draped all over you (like Kobe often does) or to pass up that shot to a wide open teammate who has a layup under the basket (which Kobe would never do)?

In one situation, you have a shot that gets you glory but one that you'll miss 9 times out of 10 every time and in the other situation, you don't get the glory but you helped your team win on a shot thats converted 80% of the time. So you tell me, you'd rather have Kobe taking the fadeaway with guys draped all over him rather than him passing the ball to a wide open teammate?

For game wining shots, Kobe has only 1 assist in his entire career, so no, he wouldn't pass it to the wide open guy.

3mikee_
02-29-2012, 04:56 PM
Are we actually talking about LeBron being more clutch than kobe? LOLLLL

SaimuKala
02-29-2012, 05:02 PM
No question?? Can you back it up since your claim is so strong? Stats and evidence say otherwise.

So you wanna say that LeBron is more clutch than Kobe?

AIRMAR72
02-29-2012, 05:27 PM
Kobe is more clutch than Lebron, no question

i bet u anything you have thats valuble if bron or Dwade were playing on the lakers with gasol and bynum the media wouldnt be saying they need help and kobe needs another star in there wade since day1 took the heat to playoffs his rookie yr with Dleague players bron turn a weaken franchise around his yr in the league and when he left they were never the same that is greatness how far you think kobe can take that same squad in cleveland numbers shows lakers are better without kobe go look it

LongIslandIcedZ
02-29-2012, 05:28 PM
This is a crazy argument. No one has a real definition for being clutch. Anyone can pull stats from everywhere backing their guy in an argument like this. When it comes down to it, personally, I dont want the ball in either Kobe or Lebron's hand with 20 seconds left in the game. Give me Dirk, Durant or Melo with that time. I dont know why, but those are the guys I see closing the game out.

Hawkeye15
02-29-2012, 05:31 PM
I do find it interesting how the Kobe supporters here never generate evidence outside what a bunch of others say, or his rings, where the guys making claims that Kobe may indeed not be as clutch as many others actually offer up factual numbers.

Which side would you choose in a trial? The side where the killer has some people saying he did do it, or the side with all the physical evidence pointing to him not doing it?

Hawkeye15
02-29-2012, 05:32 PM
This is a crazy argument. No one has a real definition for being clutch. Anyone can pull stats from everywhere backing their guy in an argument like this. When it comes down to it, personally, I dont want the ball in either Kobe or Lebron's hand with 20 seconds left in the game. Give me Dirk, Durant or Melo with that time. I dont know why, but those are the guys I see closing the game out.

throw Paul and Nash in there too as guys I would rather give the ball to with 20 seconds to go.

LongIslandIcedZ
02-29-2012, 05:35 PM
throw Paul and Nash in there too as guys I would rather give the ball to with 20 seconds to go.

Ok, added.

beliges
02-29-2012, 06:41 PM
I do find it interesting how the Kobe supporters here never generate evidence outside what a bunch of others say, or his rings, where the guys making claims that Kobe may indeed not be as clutch as many others actually offer up factual numbers.

Which side would you choose in a trial? The side where the killer has some people saying he did do it, or the side with all the physical evidence pointing to him not doing it?

Well, how you define "clutch" is purely subjective. There is no consensus definition of clutch when it comes to basketball. However, the fact that the vast majority of NBA coaches, GMs, players, former and current, all attest to the fact that Kobe is one of the "clutchest" players of all time is proof in and of itself. The ones that know and understand the game better than anyone here and better than any subjective statistic can show hold more weight to their opinions than anything else. Furthermore, the fact that the man was the closer on 5 championship teams should once again be sufficient proof that the dude is one of the most clutch performers to ever play the game.

You keep pointing out to "physical evidence" as there is some sort of physical or factual proof of clutchness out there. Game winning shots is but a very small aspect of being clutch. FG% with 5 seconds left, or 2 seconds left or 24 seconds left is once again a very small aspect of being clutch. I guess the best definition of clutch that can be agreed on would be being able to succeed and win at the closing minutes of a close game. And when you take that into consideration, not only has Kobe proven that he is the best "clutch" performer in our era, but he has proven that he is among the greatest "clutch" performers to ever play the game. I find it very funny how people like yourself try so hard to prove an accepted fact as untrue. There are only a very few percentage of people out there that will try to argue that Kobe is not one of the most clutch players to ever play the game. You happen to be one of them.

IversonIsKrazy
02-29-2012, 10:07 PM
Kobe = Clutch. Simple. No one remembers all the shots missed by MJ in the clutch, and neither did MJ himself, he just shot the next one like he can make it.
Kobe is the same thing. People who always vision his missed shots, will always view his clutch performance negatively. Kobe's been in this game for 16 years, and has proven MANY MANY times, as ridiculous his shot might be, if it's Kobe, there's a good chance its going in.

Hawkeye15
02-29-2012, 10:11 PM
Well, how you define "clutch" is purely subjective.

We can agree on that part. These "clutch" debates are as stupid as it gets. However, on a, "Who should have the ball or shoot it with the clock winding down", we do have evidence.

Clutch is a made up word for some to have vindication in their athletes. You either make plays or don't.

Hawkeye15
02-29-2012, 10:12 PM
Kobe = Clutch. Simple. No one remembers all the shots missed by MJ in the clutch, and neither did MJ himself, he just shot the next one like he can make it.
Kobe is the same thing. People who always vision his missed shots, will always view his clutch performance negatively. Kobe's been in this game for 16 years, and has proven MANY MANY times, as ridiculous his shot might be, if it's Kobe, there's a good chance its going in.

I mean, or we can just pull up how many makes and attempts he has. The percentage shows roughly 15 guys are better in those moments. The thing is, if Kobe actually cared to pass the ball or not run pure isolations in those instances, his % would probably be MUCH better.

C_Mund
02-29-2012, 10:46 PM
This just in: Wade also feels bad about breaking Kobe's face during a meaningless All Star game.

NothingbutWill
02-29-2012, 11:11 PM
http://82games.com/gamewinningshots.htm

Kobe is listed as 4th in game winning shots taken and made.

bballswishanet
03-01-2012, 12:00 AM
in the past 3 months,

-Wade says this
-Carmelo says Kobe is the best player in the game today
-Kevin Durant says Kobe Bryant is the best one on one player in the game today
-Kevin Love says Kobe is the best player in the game today
-Larry Bird says Kobe would be his first choice teammate
-Jordan says Kobe is the only player comparable to him
-Most NBA GMs say they want Kobe taking the last shot

And Kobe is leading the league in scoring and leads his team in assists.

And this guy is in his 16th season?

:D

PatsSoxKnicks
03-01-2012, 01:37 AM
I do find it interesting how the Kobe supporters here never generate evidence outside what a bunch of others say, or his rings, where the guys making claims that Kobe may indeed not be as clutch as many others actually offer up factual numbers.

Which side would you choose in a trial? The side where the killer has some people saying he did do it, or the side with all the physical evidence pointing to him not doing it?

Interesting how no Kobe supporters have answered my question. Apparently the Kobe fans do prefer that Kobe take that fadeaway jumper with 3 defenders draped all over him rather than passing it to the wide open teammate under the hoop for the layup.

bballswishanet
03-01-2012, 01:48 AM
Interesting how no Kobe supporters have answered my question. Apparently the Kobe fans do prefer that Kobe take that fadeaway jumper with 3 defenders draped all over him rather than passing it to the wide open teammate under the hoop for the layup.

:facepalm:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_TGlHy_ucqk&feature=player_embedded#!


patsSOWNEDknicks

you now = :mad:

PatsSoxKnicks
03-01-2012, 01:58 AM
:facepalm:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_TGlHy_ucqk&feature=player_embedded#!


patsSOWNEDknicks

you now = :mad:

Ok, congrats on finding Kobe's ONE assist on crunch time baskets. I had been wondering what it was but now I know. And lol at you thinking youtube video's prove anything. I love Kobe-philes and their Video facts.


Bryant makes crunch-time defense easy for opponents by shooting just about every time he touches the ball (over a five-year period, he mustered 56 clutch shots, to go with one assist).

http://espn.go.com/blog/truehoop/post/_/id/24200/the-truth-about-kobe-bryant-in-crunch-time

Don't get your panties in a bunch from the facts. Over that 5 year period, that was Bryant's ONLY assist in crunch time situations. Congrats on being able to find that lone assist. But don't be :mad: just call be a haterz and go to bed

BTW, I love how you didn't answer my question. Does the truth hurt?

Edit: Never mind. That study was done as of last year. This was a game this year, so that wasn't his 1 assist. But congrats, now Kobe has 2 assists in such situations, to the 115 attempts. Oooh, that 1 video disproves years and years of data.

BTW, am I allowed to post Kobe's airballs to end the game and then state Kobe sucks in crunch time, like you just did by trying to prove that 1 youtube clip proves that Kobe passes the ball in crunch time?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jSGmlgfj4XU

Hey look, a video showing Kobe airballing a shot with wide open teammates. Well, you're owned. Don't be :mad:

Hey look, I'm doing the same thing as you are. Trying to use video facts lmao :facepalm: Don't feel too bad though, I've owned many people on this site. You're just 1 in a long line.

nickdymez
03-01-2012, 02:05 AM
Ok, congrats on finding Kobe's ONE assist on crunch time baskets. I had been wondering what it was but now I know. And lol at you thinking youtube video's prove anything. I love Kobe-philes and their Video facts.



http://espn.go.com/blog/truehoop/post/_/id/24200/the-truth-about-kobe-bryant-in-crunch-time

Don't get your panties in a bunch from the facts. Over that 5 year period, that was Bryant's ONLY assist in crunch time situations. Congrats on being able to find that lone assist. But don't be :mad: just call be a haterz and go to bed

BTW, I love how you didn't answer my question. Does the truth hurt?

Edit: Never mind. That study was done as of last year. This was a game this year, so that wasn't his 1 assist. But congrats, now Kobe has 2 assists in such situations, to the 115 attempts. Oooh, that 1 video disproves years and years of data.


I wouldn't pass the ball in the clutch either if i had five rings. Apparently he's doing something right

beliges
03-01-2012, 02:08 AM
Kobes one of the 5 most clutch players to ever play the sport. You will have a very hard time finding NBA personell disagreeing with you. History dont lie.

PatsSoxKnicks
03-01-2012, 02:11 AM
I wouldn't pass the ball in the clutch either if i had five rings. Apparently he's doing something right

Well Robert Horry has 7 rings so does that mean he shouldn't be passing the ball either? Hmm, Horry has 7 rings, which is greater than 5, so I guess Horry should be taking that shot (no knock on him btw, just pointing out how flawed your logic is)

Anyways you're telling me that you'd rather have Kobe shoot a shot that has a 20% chance of going in (those fadeaways with 2 defenders draped all over him) instead of passing it to a wide open teammate under the hoop for a shot that has an 80% shot of going in? Good to know you understand team basketball.

beliges
03-01-2012, 02:12 AM
I wouldn't pass the ball in the clutch either if i had five rings. Apparently he's doing something right

Its funny when people put "getting assists" ahead of "winning" just so they can find a way to downgrade Kobe.

PatsSoxKnicks
03-01-2012, 02:16 AM
Its funny when people put "getting assists" ahead of "winning" just so they can find a way to downgrade Kobe.

It's not about getting assists, it's about making the right basketball play. If Kobe has a shot around the rim where he knows he's going to get fouled, of course you take that opportunity but if he's taking another type of shot, it might not be the best decision to shoot it.

But you, like many of the Kobe-philes, have not answered my question:

you're telling me that you'd rather have Kobe shoot a shot that has a 20% chance of going in (those fadeaways with 2 defenders draped all over him) instead of passing it to a wide open teammate under the hoop for a shot that has an 80% shot of going in?

Again, which shot is going to help the team win more? The fadeaway that's a low % shot or the layup? Answer it

Hawkeye15
03-01-2012, 02:17 AM
I wouldn't pass the ball in the clutch either if i had five rings. Apparently he's doing something right

This literally made me laugh. Thank you.

C-Style
03-01-2012, 02:20 AM
i bet u anything you have thats valuble if bron or Dwade were playing on the lakers with gasol and bynum the media wouldnt be saying they need help and kobe needs another star in there wade since day1 took the heat to playoffs his rookie yr with Dleague players bron turn a weaken franchise around his yr in the league and when he left they were never the same that is greatness how far you think kobe can take that same squad in cleveland numbers shows lakers are better without kobe go look it

In the Leastern conference? pretty far. Now I doubt Wade even sniffs the playoffs in the West back then

beliges
03-01-2012, 02:22 AM
It's not about getting assists, it's about making the right basketball play. If Kobe has a shot around the rim where he knows he's going to get fouled, of course you take that opportunity but if he's taking another type of shot, it might not be the best decision to shoot it.

But you, like many of the Kobe-philes, have not answered my question:

you're telling me that you'd rather have Kobe shoot a shot that has a 20% chance of going in (those fadeaways with 2 defenders draped all over him) instead of passing it to a wide open teammate under the hoop for a shot that has an 80% shot of going in?

Again, which shot is going to help the team win more? The fadeaway that's a low % shot or the layup? Answer it

Your basing one's entire abilities in the clutch by his shooting % in one single possession at the end of games. Theres so much more to being clutch and closing games than your shooting % on one possession at the end of a game. He has closed out so many games for his team, over so many years, in so many big game/playoff situations. Hes been the closer of 5 championship teams. Hes done it over and over again. He might not pass the ball as much as some would like during those times, but proven himself time and time again.

PatsSoxKnicks
03-01-2012, 02:32 AM
Your basing one's entire abilities in the clutch by his shooting % in one single possession at the end of games. Theres so much more to being clutch and closing games than your shooting % on one possession at the end of a game. He has closed out so many games for his team, over so many years, in so many big game/playoff situations. Hes been the closer of 5 championship teams. Hes done it over and over again. He might not pass the ball as much as some would like during those times, but proven himself time and time again.

I'm not saying Kobe isn't a great player (though I'll admit, I don't like him at all) but what I am saying is that his decision making isn't very good at the end of games. He does become a ballhog at the end of games and sometimes to the detriment of the team. I believe the Lakers offense has seen an efficiency drop in the last 5 minutes of close games (defined as game within +/- 5 points with <5 minutes left in the game). The reason that is the case is because Kobe doesn't pass enough. (I don't feel like searching for the article but its there somewhere)

And yes, he's been on 5 championship teams but not all of those games are necessarily close. You forget, the Lakers often win games in the playoffs by 10-15 points, meaning what happens at the end of games doesn't really matter as much.

mVpDirk41
03-01-2012, 02:57 AM
wade just want to make it up with kobe. . breaking his nose. .

but dirk, kobe , durant and melo are great closer. .

NothingbutWill
03-01-2012, 05:41 AM
I don't get what the argument is.

Kobe is a clutch player, he's proven that time in and time out. He might take questionable shots in clutch moments instead of passing it but he's the leader of the team, he's the closer and he's the all-star. 40% (no proof) of the time in game deciding situations, the shot are taken by the all star of the team. That's just the way it is. Lebron, Wade, Dirk, Kobe, Mello, Durant, you name it will be taking those shots at the end of games. You guys can throw % and stats all you want but Kobe has made a lot of game winning shot and he has missed a lot as well. That's all part of the game and that's all part of being the team leader.

bballswishanet
03-01-2012, 04:09 PM
Shaq just said Kobe is the best SG that he played with

So in in the past 3 months,

-Wade says this
-Carmelo says Kobe is the best player in the game today
-Kevin Durant says Kobe Bryant is the best one on one player in the game today
-Kevin Love says Kobe is the best player in the game today
-Larry Bird says Kobe would be his first choice teammate
-Jordan said Kobe is the only player comparable to him
-Most NBA GMs say they want Kobe taking the last shot
-Shaq said Kobe is the best SG that he played with

And Kobe is leading the league in scoring and leads his team in assists.

And this guy is in his 16th season?

:D

bballswishanet
03-02-2012, 12:52 AM
Also in the last 3 months, Steve Nash said Kobe is the best player in the world.

So in in the past 3 months,

-Wade says this
-Carmelo says Kobe is the best player in the game today
-Kevin Durant says Kobe Bryant is the best one on one player in the game today
-Kevin Love says Kobe is the best player in the game today
-Larry Bird says Kobe would be his first choice teammate
-Jordan said Kobe is the only player comparable to him
-Most NBA GMs say they want Kobe taking the last shot
-Shaq said Kobe is the best SG that he played with

-Steve Nash said Kobe is the best player in the world

And Kobe is leading the league in scoring and leads his team in assists.

And this guy is in his 16th season?

RaiderLakersA's
03-02-2012, 11:19 PM
Well Robert Horry has 7 rings so does that mean he shouldn't be passing the ball either? Hmm, Horry has 7 rings, which is greater than 5, so I guess Horry should be taking that shot (no knock on him btw, just pointing out how flawed your logic is).

I understand the point that you're trying to make, but umm, no Robert Horry shouldn't be passing the ball either, if he has it with a few ticks left on the clock. He's earned that right.

They don't call him Big Shot Rob for nothing. He's hit game changers and game winners for the Rockets, Lakers and Spurs. It's NOT a coincidence that he has 7 rings. Take him off of any of those franchises and each of those teams would have less championship banners.

There are role players and then there are guys like Robert Horry, Vinnie "The Microwave" Johnson, Toni Kukoc, Dennis Rodman, etc., etc. Guys whose intangibles are superlative, making them a key part to any championship run.

Sorry for the sidebar. You may now resume the conversation at hand. :D

Flashsides
03-02-2012, 11:22 PM
The fact of the matter is it doesn't matter what anyone says, statistically, Kobe is not the best player in the clutch. It's as simple as that. I'll take Melo any day because the statistics tell me that Melo is the one who makes that shot more than anyone else.

Bruno
03-03-2012, 12:05 AM
thats a lengthy list of *** kissing.

i get the current players doing it. reverse psychology, don't give him any added motivation. but i am surprised by bird and jordan commenting publicly on bryant the way they did.

bird and kobe are so similar. both in mentality and in statistics, it's weird.

RaiderLakersA's
03-03-2012, 01:13 AM
The fact of the matter is it doesn't matter what anyone says, statistically, Kobe is not the best player in the clutch. It's as simple as that. I'll take Melo any day because the statistics tell me that Melo is the one who makes that shot more than anyone else.

Call me when Melo reaches his 16th season. We'll grab some Buds, throw something on the grill, and compare notes.

lakersfan01
03-03-2012, 04:11 AM
Wade is just scared that Matt and World are gonna pop him back Sunday. Wade drinks Bron Bron's nut from his nob.

WadeKobe
03-03-2012, 05:00 AM
The best player to take a game winning shot is not Kobe. He's 7-25 in his career in the playoffs on game-winners. No thanks. He is 25% in his career in the regular season. I'll pass.

Give me Ray Allen.

WadeKobe
03-03-2012, 05:02 AM
Well Robert Horry has 7 rings so does that mean he shouldn't be passing the ball either? Hmm, Horry has 7 rings, which is greater than 5, so I guess Horry should be taking that shot (no knock on him btw, just pointing out how flawed your logic is)

Anyways you're telling me that you'd rather have Kobe shoot a shot that has a 20% chance of going in (those fadeaways with 2 defenders draped all over him) instead of passing it to a wide open teammate under the hoop for a shot that has an 80% shot of going in? Good to know you understand team basketball.

x infinity

It's just ludicrous. And, actually, I would say that Robert Horry should be taking the last second shot, because he's a very good shooter who shot well on game winners.

WadeKobe
03-03-2012, 05:08 AM
I wouldn't pass the ball in the clutch either if i had five rings. Apparently he's doing something right

:pity: Actually, making game-winning shots is NOT what he's been doing right en route to 5 rings. That's the funny thing about this. There is a myth created that tells us what we want to believe.

The facts are that Kobe has only made 7 game-winning shots in the playoffs in his entire career and has missed 18.

Clearly he's not winning championships because he makes game winning shots.

PatsSoxKnicks
03-03-2012, 05:23 AM
:pity: Actually, making game-winning shots is NOT what he's been doing right en route to 5 rings. That's the funny thing about this. There is a myth created that tells us what we want to believe.

The facts are that Kobe has only made 7 game-winning shots in the playoffs in his entire career and has missed 18.

Clearly he's not winning championships because he makes game winning shots.

The other point is that winning 5 championships has nothing to do with playing well in the clutch. If a championship team won every game by 15 points in the playoffs, does that tell you anything about a player's ability to play in the clutch? No, it just says that the team was way superior to everyone else.

The idea that just because someone has x amount of rings means he was clutch is stupid because its entirely possible he got a lot of those rings by playing very few close games. Maybe that players team lost the close games but won enough of the other games to the point that it didn't matter. The best teams are the ones that destroy other teams, not the ones that win close games.

It'd be interesting to see how many close games (+/- 5 points final margin) the Lakers actually played during Kobe's 5 ship seasons and what their record actually was. That wouldn't tell you anything about how clutch he was but if its in line with their normal winning %, it doesn't say the Lakers were any more clutch than any other team.