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View Full Version : 2012 Blue Jays: "respectable" or "competitive"



hungry_eye
02-25-2012, 01:51 AM
Each spring for the past decade or so, i enthusiastically watch the Blue Jays begin a new season through optimistic eyes, hoping this will be the year of the Jay. In all honesty, I just want this team to step on the next plateau to "contender" status. I think in past years the team began each season with a foundation of both promise and shroud of question marks. It seems contention is hinged on the notion of a series of "if's"

Sure the jays can make the playoffs if their starting rotation pitches to their expectations and the rest of the team plays to their potential. As in every year, many of these question marks are not answered with positive results and this costs the team games.

Just wondering what some of your thoughts and ideas on what (or who) needs to step up in order to move beyound another "respectable" .500 season where the jays are not playing meaningful September baseball.

StealingSigns
02-25-2012, 02:31 AM
Respectable. As in, 4th place in the AL East.

Competitive, they are 3rd in the AL East.

ShortsideShot14
02-25-2012, 03:08 AM
I have a good feeling about this year. When you look at last year, it seemed like far more things went wrong than went right. Add that to the fact that we gave away a lot of wins with blown saves. Despite both, they still won 81 games in the best division in baseball. If a few more things go right this year (Rasmus, Lind, Cecil, etc.), and the bullpen pitches the way it should, I see no reason the Jays can't take the next step and be playing competitive baseball throughout September

hungry_eye
02-25-2012, 05:02 AM
I have a good feeling about this year. When you look at last year, it seemed like far more things went wrong than went right. Add that to the fact that we gave away a lot of wins with blown saves. Despite both, they still won 81 games in the best division in baseball. If a few more things go right this year (Rasmus, Lind, Cecil, etc.), and the bullpen pitches the way it should, I see no reason the Jays can't take the next step and be playing competitive baseball throughout September

I totally agree with you, I think a number of things have to be in place in order for the Jays to find success and a playoff birth. It makes me wonder if the Jays have the talent to make it to the post season, or does this team need to get "lucky" and hope the majority have strong seasons. That being said, what needs to be in place in order for this to occur? I know Rasmus, Lind, Cecil and Drabek need to play better this year. But what happens if Bautista and Lawrie have off seasons? I fear this team may be destined to be mediocre.

Krylian
02-25-2012, 11:00 AM
4th in the East.

capokbmw
02-25-2012, 11:01 AM
I have a good feeling about this year. When you look at last year, it seemed like far more things went wrong than went right. Add that to the fact that we gave away a lot of wins with blown saves. Despite both, they still won 81 games in the best division in baseball http://www.vvio.info/jpg1. If a few more things go right this year (Rasmus, Lind, Cecil, etc.), and the bullpen pitches the way it should, I see no reason the Jays can't take the next step and be playing competitive baseball throughout September
the bullpen pitches the way it should, I see no reason the Jays can't take the next step

Canadian hemi
02-25-2012, 11:53 AM
Every year..we all are very positive..and then mid year or 2/3's the way through..reality hits....but then at the end of the year, we play good...and that gives us a false sense of hope that...well maybe we are close to going to that next step!!

I think we will be around .500 again. Now saying all that..I think we are on track to be a very good ball team!!! But just not yet. I don't think we did enough to our starting rotation, and we needed another bat..(to help Batista). Still to many questions marks..is Rasmus good? Cecil? Morrow? Lind?....all had down years this year...Well maybe not Morrow..but..I think you get my point..

Close..but not there yet!

AA09-?
02-25-2012, 12:19 PM
I'd say we have a good chance to get back to where we were in 2010. 85 or 86 wins is somewhat likely.

Sanyo
02-25-2012, 01:14 PM
If the Jays win, great I will be super happy -- if not, as long as I see some development within the team I'll be happy!

AA09-?
02-25-2012, 02:16 PM
If the Jays win, great I will be super happy -- if not, as long as I see some development within the team I'll be happy!

I agree, as long as that development is with potential or core players.

wagnall
02-25-2012, 02:28 PM
Shi with AA this morning, AA says..best talent yet, solid years, not career years from players make Jays great team.

So I guess time will tell and have feeling if we have some of these "players" which we've all discussed need to get back to previous years levels, that have less than solid years by TD may be moved!

Even with all the ? marks I'd say we will get back to 2010 numbers.

ah nuts
02-25-2012, 05:51 PM
This team just seems ready to take off... if not this year then next.

it's funny, I'm more curious who will stop the jays from reaching 90 wins this year.

Ie. will romero get injured. Will several players just totally nose dive and disappoint.

^^^ as above just average years from all should make this team very good. It seems so complete from top to bottom.

jamjar
02-26-2012, 12:20 AM
respectable - another .500 season.

competitive - 10 more wins than last year. 91-71.

leafswin2011
02-26-2012, 12:32 AM
if we won 8 more games then last year i would think they would be big spenders in the off season.

masTOR_shake1
02-26-2012, 12:52 AM
could be competitive, let us not discount a big trade happening to help us at the big league level this year to help us be competitive.

Pride
02-26-2012, 01:20 AM
If things don't get out of control, I hope we land Kyle Zimmer. Some scouts like him more than Appel. http://www.baseballamerica.com/today/college/column/2012/2613027.html

Edit: Meant to post in 2012 draft thread. If mods could please move this, that would be great.

wamco
02-26-2012, 08:47 AM
could be competitive, let us not discount a big trade happening to help us at the big league level this year to help us be competitive.

then let's not discount that this same exact thing could happen for the sox, yanks, and tb.

the_jon
02-26-2012, 09:12 AM
if we won 8 more games then last year i would think they would be big spenders in the off season.
We probably would have if we had a bullpen to speak of.

I feel like this team could be one of those surprise teams that come up every year. Can't really pick them to win anything right now but if they were to it wouldn't be totally shocking. Too bad we're not in the AL central -_-'

mtf
02-26-2012, 09:14 AM
It is, as always, a team of hopes instead of a team of expectations.

wamco
02-26-2012, 10:26 AM
We need the 4th and 5th starters to put up sub 4.50 era's in my opinion.

LanceUpperCut
02-26-2012, 11:01 AM
I do believe we have a chance to compete with the Rays and Sox. The Yanks are going to take the east with ease in my mind, but I think the Sox are on a downward slope and the Rays are still lacking some bats. Personally I would love to see a playoff berth but as long as I see the Jays involved in a race at seasons end I would be to disappointed.

ah nuts
02-26-2012, 09:36 PM
from the 2011 team, for most of the season,

it was more or less only Bautista, Escobar, and Romero who gave the jays good seasons. That's a LOT of room for improvement to better 81wins.

nithanyo
02-27-2012, 12:24 AM
the yanks aren't really a shoe in.

Kuroda is coming from a huge park in LA and same goes for Pineda. Playing in the band box of LA means a lot more home runs.

Nova and Hughes aren't that great either. Sabathia is a twinkie away from a heart attack and Mariano is getting old. Teixera is coming off a bad year on his standards and A-rod is coming of surgery and is getting old as well.

IMO the red sox are just as much of a threat.

masTOR_shake1
02-27-2012, 12:59 AM
then let's not discount that this same exact thing could happen for the sox, yanks, and tb.

:rolleyes: I should have qualified that by saying that I believe, given the state of our farm system and the ineptness of our offseason, that I EXPECT a relevant trade to be made to help us. I think that the other three are more or less content with their rosters but who knows.

wamco
02-27-2012, 08:41 AM
CC has been fat since mariano has been old.

pebloemer
02-27-2012, 01:45 PM
To be competitive:

Leaders need to maintain status quo:
Bautista needs to have another MVP worthy campaign.
Romero needs to lead the rotation like he did last year, providing consistent pitching night in, night out.

"High ceiling" players need to perform:
Players like Snider, Rasmus, Lawrie, Arencibia, Morrow, Alvarez. I'd guess 3 of those 6 need to have very good campaigns. Maybe more.

Supporting cast needs to be consistent:
Bullpen, Johnson, Lind, Encarnacion, Escobar, Thames, Cecil etc. need to play consistent baseball. The consistency of this group could relieve a lot of pressure on the leaders and "high ceiling" guys.

Could use a couple breaks:
Injuries, bad years, lack of mental toughness are things that can affect any player and any team. the Jays are deep enough to withstand some of it, but they'll need relative health to stay competitive. It would help if some of their counter parts had tough breaks with this.

This may seem like a lot, but consider the East powerhouses (Texas, LAA, Yankees, Rays, Detroit, Boston). Those are 6 very strong baseball clubs. Being competitive against them will not be easy. Even with an added wildcard, Jays would have to finish above 2 of those 6 teams to make it into the playoffs.

Ace Drivers
02-27-2012, 02:33 PM
Assuming our opening line up below...here's what needs to happen for us to be a contender

Lind - improve BA to 280, with an improvement to his SO to Walk ratio...should translate into more runs, power wise he's fine
Johnson - same comments as above
Escobar - repeat...could use a few more walks given his lack of speed
Lawrie - do it for a whole season
JP - see Lind/Johnson
Bautista - somewhere between 2010 - 2011
Rasmus - return to 2010 numbers
Thames - do it for a whole season

Starters
Ricky - keep doing what you are doing
Morrow - give me 5 more of the great Morrow, and remove 5 of the bad Morrow
Alvarez - do it for a whole season
Cecil - stay away from street meat (i'm really excited about him losing 35+ pds)
McGowan/or one of the other guys - 10 wins with an ERZ around 4

Bullpen - just be better than average, rather than almost dead last!

KaiserSose
02-27-2012, 04:58 PM
Assuming our opening line up below...here's what needs to happen for us to be a contender

Lind - improve BA to 280, with an improvement to his SO to Walk ratio...should translate into more runs, power wise he's fine
Johnson - same comments as above
Escobar - repeat...could use a few more walks given his lack of speed
Lawrie - do it for a whole season
JP - see Lind/Johnson
Bautista - somewhere between 2010 - 2011
Rasmus - return to 2010 numbers
Thames - do it for a whole season

Starters
Ricky - keep doing what you are doing
Morrow - give me 5 more of the great Morrow, and remove 5 of the bad Morrow
Alvarez - do it for a whole season
Cecil - stay away from street meat (i'm really excited about him losing 35+ pds)
McGowan/or one of the other guys - 10 wins with an ERZ around 4

Bullpen - just be better than average, rather than almost dead last!

Our bullpen wasn't amazing but it wasn't close to dead last. Is there some sort of official bullpen ranking that I'm not aware of?

wagnall
02-27-2012, 05:33 PM
To be competitive:

Leaders need to maintain status quo:
Bautista needs to have another MVP worthy campaign.
Romero needs to lead the rotation like he did last year, providing consistent pitching night in, night out.

"High ceiling" players need to perform:
Players like Snider, Rasmus, Lawrie, Arencibia, Morrow, Alvarez. I'd guess 3 of those 6 need to have very good campaigns. Maybe more.

Supporting cast needs to be consistent:
Bullpen, Johnson, Lind, Encarnacion, Escobar, Thames, Cecil etc. need to play consistent baseball. The consistency of this group could relieve a lot of pressure on the leaders and "high ceiling" guys.

Could use a couple breaks:
Injuries, bad years, lack of mental toughness are things that can affect any player and any team. the Jays are deep enough to withstand some of it, but they'll need relative health to stay competitive. It would help if some of their counter parts had tough breaks with this.

This may seem like a lot, but consider the East powerhouses (Texas, LAA, Yankees, Rays, Detroit, Boston). Those are 6 very strong baseball clubs. Being competitive against them will not be easy. Even with an added wildcard, Jays would have to finish above 2 of those 6 teams to make it into the playoffs.


I still think Texas will win there division and theres nothing we can do about Detroit. I'm thinking that its going to come down to having to jump 2 of the teams in our division. Tall order, but if as AA said, we need Solid years from ALL our 25 guys, we get that, I agree with you we will be competitive. :)

But in reality I think once we get through this year and the hurd of non contributing players in 2012 is thinned out, 2013 looks real exciting . JMHO

scottythegreat1
02-27-2012, 07:00 PM
Im going to admit, this is the most hyped up Ive been about the Blue Jays since they brought in Frank Thomas.

If you think about it, the Blue Jays arent too far off from making the playoffs. If you look on paper.....New York got better by adding a few pieces to their rotation and got a DH and traded Burnett....Tampa went out and brought Carlos Pena back, so they have a little more pop in their lineup. Boston lost their GM, their manager, their team captain, their right fielder, their closer, etc;

Theres a reason why I said New York would win the division and Tampa would win the Wild Card....I also said the Jays would come in fourth, I also said that they would win about 86 games, but I also hinted that Boston would win around 88 or 89 games....We arent that far off from scooping up 3rd place from them...

The AL East didnt get that much harder to beat, The AL West surely got a lot better, and the AL Central is going to get interesting, but the AL East has always been like this

riderfan60
02-27-2012, 08:19 PM
We need the 4th and 5th starters to put up sub 4.50 era's in my opinion.

I think you've hit the nail on the head. If we get that from our 4/5 starters, we can compete, not saying we'll win, but it'll be a very interesting year.

tazsub3
02-27-2012, 08:36 PM
Look the key this year our 4th and 5th starters have a chance to breakout.
Both were projects to be to be top of rotation guys. One was slowed (halted is a better word) by an injuring , the other by a down year and weight.
However both have the chance to comeback, if they do this team will seriously contend for the division.
Of course many iffs there. but the talent is there, the key is for it to come together at the same time

wamco
02-27-2012, 08:43 PM
how about this. say you don't live in canada and extra innings costs you 199 dollars to see the jays games. Do you do it?

Krylian
02-28-2012, 12:27 AM
how about this. say you don't live in canada and extra innings costs you 199 dollars to see the jays games. Do you do it?

Just over a buck a game?

Why not?

wamco
02-28-2012, 12:42 AM
and on Fios package so very rarely in HD.

AA09-?
02-28-2012, 10:35 AM
and on Fios package so very rarely in HD.

Move to Canada.

pebloemer
02-28-2012, 12:45 PM
I still think Texas will win there division and theres nothing we can do about Detroit. I'm thinking that its going to come down to having to jump 2 of the teams in our division. Tall order, but if as AA said, we need Solid years from ALL our 25 guys, we get that, I agree with you we will be competitive. :)

But in reality I think once we get through this year and the hurd of non contributing players in 2012 is thinned out, 2013 looks real exciting . JMHO

That's true about Detroit. Doesn't matter if we finish above them. We need to finish above 2 of Boston, NYY, Rays, LAA and Texas. We can be competitive, but after to off-season LAA and Texas had.... it will be a tall order. The Jays need to take care of the divison. Our record against the AL East (minus Baltimore) will be very indicative of how close we are by the end of the year.

Farsight
02-28-2012, 01:00 PM
If anyone wants MLB.TV and live in canada, all you have to do is purchase it from the MLB site, and pay for a proxy (which is about 3-6 dollars a month). That is what i did last year, it actually worked really well (unless you have bandwidth issues)

craigerlee
02-28-2012, 01:17 PM
If anyone wants MLB.TV and live in canada, all you have to do is purchase it from the MLB site, and pay for a proxy (which is about 3-6 dollars a month). That is what i did last year, it actually worked really well (unless you have bandwidth issues)

If you have any account with Rogers you get all the Jays games free on Rogers on Demand. I ended up cancelling my MLB.TV subscription in August once Rogers on Demand launched.

Farsight
02-28-2012, 01:54 PM
If you have any account with Rogers you get all the Jays games free on Rogers on Demand. I ended up cancelling my MLB.TV subscription in August once Rogers on Demand launched. Thats good to know, it will be useful when im actually back at home. My only issue is that until the end of april im in london, so i might get MLB.TV for a month. Unless i can possibly access the games online somehow through rogers?

craigerlee
02-28-2012, 04:40 PM
Thats good to know, it will be useful when im actually back at home. My only issue is that until the end of april im in london, so i might get MLB.TV for a month. Unless i can possibly access the games online somehow through rogers?

Rogers on demand is online. You just need to sign up for an account and you can stream the games online if you have cell phone, internet, or cable bill with them.

Vampirate
02-28-2012, 07:27 PM
The Blue Jays will probably be the best 4th place team in the league, maybe eqasily so.

nithanyo
02-28-2012, 07:45 PM
For once I think it might be harder/just as hard to win the division as the wild card. Pretty much means We're screwed

statquo
02-29-2012, 02:42 AM
The MLB At Bat App got me through the season when I was working. Games are blacked out but the radio gets it done for anyone not in front of a tv all day. 15 bucks, easy peezy.

Ragin' Cajun
02-29-2012, 10:21 AM
I think this team is respectable but we need at least 2 more high end starters to compete. Our offensive lineup can be quite impressive if everyone can contribute consistantly. But I truly believe we need 2 more studs in our rotation, we have a lot of question marks there with Cecil, Drabek, Alvarez all have high potential but there's no guarantees.

AA09-?
02-29-2012, 10:24 AM
I think this team is respectable but we need at least 2 more high end starters to compete. Our offensive lineup can be quite impressive if everyone can contribute consistantly. But I truly believe we need 2 more studs in our rotation, we have a lot of question marks there with Cecil, Drabek, Alvarez all have high potential but there's no guarantees.

What if one or two of the above mentioned starters take a big step forward?
Would we then need to acquire high end starters in your mind?

Ragin' Cajun
02-29-2012, 10:54 AM
What if one or two of the above mentioned starters take a big step forward?
Would we then need to acquire high end starters in your mind?

If we can get quality starts from them all year then no. But if Drabek is sent back down and Cecil doesn't get his head back in the game then we have to go out and acquire another starter or 2. I feel Alvarez is one guy who should be solid. But like I say these guys can be the answer for us as long as they resolve their issues. Drabek needs to learn to keep his cool, Cecil had awful year and didn't want to play. I seen the bit on him on Sportsnet where he didn't want to play at all during the season and couldn't get his head in the game but he claims to be re-focused so we'll see what happens. Should be an interesting year. I am really looking forward to it.

mtf
02-29-2012, 12:25 PM
What if one or two of the above mentioned starters take a big step forward?
Would we then need to acquire high end starters in your mind?

That's kind of a weak argument. Obviously if people perform above expectations, then that's great and they don't need to be replaced, but by the same logic there are players who have high expectations who can fall short, like Romero or Bautista could have bad years. I think most people would agree that going into the season, expectations are low again for the team as a whole. Perhaps higher than last year, where people were predicting mid-to-low 70s for wins, however on paper this is still a fourth place team.

It all comes down to expectations vs. hopes, as I said on an earlier page of this thread. The Blue Jays are trotting out another team of hopes, and in this regard there's nothing new to see here as "hope" has been their sales pitch for nearly 2 decades. The same is not true in New York, Boston, Tampa, Detroit, Philadelphia, Texas, Miami, Washington, and Anaheim where there are expectations of winning. I can't speak for you, perhaps you truly believe they'll win the division and that's your expectation. If that's true, I think you'd be in the minority.

AA09-?
02-29-2012, 01:06 PM
That's kind of a weak argument. Obviously if people perform above expectations, then that's great and they don't need to be replaced, but by the same logic there are players who have high expectations who can fall short, like Romero or Bautista could have bad years. I think most people would agree that going into the season, expectations are low again for the team as a whole. Perhaps higher than last year, where people were predicting mid-to-low 70s for wins, however on paper this is still a fourth place team.

It all comes down to expectations vs. hopes, as I said on an earlier page of this thread. The Blue Jays are trotting out another team of hopes, and in this regard there's nothing new to see here as "hope" has been their sales pitch for nearly 2 decades. The same is not true in New York, Boston, Tampa, Detroit, Philadelphia, Texas, Miami, Washington, and Anaheim where there are expectations of winning. I can't speak for you, perhaps you truly believe they'll win the division and that's your expectation. If that's true, I think you'd be in the minority.

First off it was 2 questions not an argument at all. Secondly, who was predicting mid to low 70's for wins? I certainly didn't.

No team is a shoe-in to get into the playoffs, so mentioning 8 potential contenders is really pointless. I don't expect that the Jays will win the division. I merely asked 2 questions.

AA09-?
02-29-2012, 01:07 PM
If we can get quality starts from them all year then no. But if Drabek is sent back down and Cecil doesn't get his head back in the game then we have to go out and acquire another starter or 2. I feel Alvarez is one guy who should be solid. But like I say these guys can be the answer for us as long as they resolve their issues. Drabek needs to learn to keep his cool, Cecil had awful year and didn't want to play. I seen the bit on him on Sportsnet where he didn't want to play at all during the season and couldn't get his head in the game but he claims to be re-focused so we'll see what happens. Should be an interesting year. I am really looking forward to it.

Can you find this, because I certainly don't have any recollection of him saying taht.

wamco
02-29-2012, 01:21 PM
First off it was 2 questions not an argument at all. Secondly, who was predicting mid to low 70's for wins? I certainly didn't.

No team is a shoe-in to get into the playoffs, so mentioning 8 potential contenders is really pointless. I don't expect that the Jays will win the division. I merely asked 2 questions.

"weak argument" wasn't his value he placed on the discussion that was being had. "weak argument" is an expression pointing out a weak stance.

Vegas had jays at 70 wins last year, so there's that.

AA09-?
02-29-2012, 01:26 PM
"weak argument" wasn't his value he placed on the discussion that was being had. "weak argument" is an expression pointing out a weak stance.

Vegas had jays at 70 wins last year, so there's that.

mtf just said people predicted and made no mention of Vegas oddsmakers.

craigerlee
02-29-2012, 01:40 PM
Can you find this, because I certainly don't have any recollection of him saying taht.
Sportsnet.ca (http://www.sportsnet.ca/video/36651949001/40415880001/Chewin-the-fat-with-Cecil)

AA09-?
02-29-2012, 01:44 PM
Sportsnet.ca (http://www.sportsnet.ca/video/36651949001/40415880001/Chewin-the-fat-with-Cecil)

thank-you.

mtf
02-29-2012, 02:45 PM
First off it was 2 questions not an argument at all. Secondly, who was predicting mid to low 70's for wins? I certainly didn't.

The predictions for the Jays around North America entering the 2011 season was low-to-mid 70's by multiple well respected sources as well as the odds-makers in Vegas. It was widely discussed in the Toronto media at the time. That's what I was referring to. I wasn't calling you out personally for a 2011 prediction that you may or may not have made.


No team is a shoe-in to get into the playoffs, so mentioning 8 potential contenders is really pointless. I don't expect that the Jays will win the division. I merely asked 2 questions.

I didn't say that they were odds on favorites to all make the playoffs, in fact I'm pretty sure it'd be impossible for all of the teams I mentioned to make it in the same year unless that new wild card is introduced as early as this year.

My point, which seemed to have eluded you, was that the perception around those teams previously mentioned is that there's expectations to contend and to win. The feeling around the Jays going into this year is the same as it's been for nearly 20 years, and that is not an expectation to win, but more of a hope. I was trying to illustrate the point that Rogers sells hopes, not expectations.

Don't you wish, just once, it was like the early 90's again where greatness was expected.

Ragin' Cajun
02-29-2012, 03:14 PM
Can you find this, because I certainly don't have any recollection of him saying taht.

It was on Sportsnet last week sometime I don't remember when but it was a little bit on him and how he struggled and days when he'd wake up and didn't even want to go to the ball park some days. He said that he wants his son to be proud of him and that's he motivated to be better and is working hard to do that. That's all I know on that.

wamco
02-29-2012, 10:09 PM
mtf just said people predicted and made no mention of Vegas oddsmakers.

those are people

AA09-?
02-29-2012, 10:12 PM
[QUOTE=wamco;21152467]those are people[/QUOTE

Really?