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JordansBulls
02-21-2012, 03:57 PM
In the 2000's, which player was the best player each year?

2000 -
2001 -
2002 -
2003 -
2004 -
2005 -
2006 -
2007 -
2008 -
2009 -
2010 -
2011 -

Hawkeye15
02-21-2012, 04:10 PM
2000- Shaq
2001- Shaq
2002- Duncan
2003- Duncan
2004- Garnett
2005- Garnett
2006- Nowitzki
2007- Nowitzki
2008- Paul
2009- James
2010- James

Before I even hear it from Kobe fans, I have stated a number of other times, that while I agree he is a top 7-10 player ever, it has more to do with his ridiculous ability to be a top 2-6 player for 13 or 14 seasons. At no point do I personally feel he was the best player in the NBA individually, over the course of the entire season. He has never led the NBA in a single advanced category outside usage. His rings are a product of team play as well, not individual.

Thought I would throw a disclaimer out there before a Laker fan came in here and got pissed.

ManRam
02-21-2012, 04:16 PM
2000 - Shaq
2001 - Shaq
2002 - Duncan
2003 - Duncan (though, I want to say T-Mac...and wouldn't feel too guilty)
2004 - KG, by a wide margin
2005 - KG/Dirk...probably KG
2006 - Dirk
2007 - Dirk
2008 - CP3
2009 - LeBron
2010 - LeBron
2011 - LeBron

Didn't want to be the same as Hawk, but couldn't justify anything different.

utl768
02-21-2012, 04:17 PM
2000-shaq
2001-shaq
2002-shaq
2003-duncan
2004-duncan
2005-nash
2006-wade
2007-kobe
2008-lebron
2009-lebron
2010-lebron
2011-lebron

Hawkeye15
02-21-2012, 04:19 PM
2000 - Shaq
2001 - Shaq
2002 - Duncan
2003 - Duncan (though, I want to say T-Mac...and wouldn't feel too guilty)
2004 - KG, by a wide margin
2005 - KG/Dirk...probably KG
2006 - Dirk
2007 - Dirk
2008 - CP3
2009 - LeBron
2010 - LeBron
2011 - LeBron

Didn't want to be the same as Hawk, but couldn't justify anything different.

I was tempted to say T-Mac in 2002 as well, but I couldn't bring myself to do it. Duncan by the slightest margin, though as you said, I wouldn't blink an eye if someone listed him there.

lvlheaded
02-21-2012, 04:22 PM
00-02: Shaq
03-04: Duncan
05: KG
06-07: Dirk
08: CP3
09-11-LBJ

KB-Pau-DH2012
02-21-2012, 04:26 PM
2000 - Shaq
2001 - Shaq
2002 - Duncan
2003 - Duncan (though, I want to say T-Mac...and wouldn't feel too guilty)
2004 - KG, by a wide margin
2005 - KG/Dirk...probably KG
2006 - Dirk
2007 - Dirk
2008 - CP3
2009 - LeBron
2010 - LeBron
2011 - LeBron

Didn't want to be the same as Hawk, but couldn't justify anything different.

Kobe was the best player in 2006. 35.4 ppg, 5.4 rpg, 4.5 apg, 1.8 spg. Defense above average.

ManRam
02-21-2012, 04:31 PM
Kobe was the best player in 2006. 35.4 ppg, 5.4 rpg, 4.5 apg, 1.8 spg. Defense above average.

Dirk: 26.6 ppg, 9.0 rpg, 2.8 apg.

Dirk shot 48% from the field, 40.6% from three. Compare that to Kobe's 45% and 34.7% from three.

kobe took 27 shots a game that year. if dirk took 27 shots a game he would have scored 40+ points a game.

Dirk had a better PER, more win shares, more WS/48, higher eFG% and TS%, and so on and so on.

Dirk was better.

KB-Pau-DH2012
02-21-2012, 04:33 PM
Dirk: 26.6 ppg, 9.0 rpg, 2.8 apg.

Dirk shot 48% from the field, 40.6% from three. Compare that to Kobe's 45% and 34.7% from three.

kobe took 27 shots a game that year. if dirk took 27 shots a game he would have scored 40+ points a game.

Dirk had a better PER, more win shares, more WS/48, higher eFG% and TS%, and so on and so on.

Dirk was better.

Dirk's supporting cast was better and thus got to the finals. Kobe had Smush, Kwame and Brian Cook and a pothead inconsistent Lamar Odom and unathletic Luke Walton to work with.

utl768
02-21-2012, 04:34 PM
Kobe was the best player in 2006. 35.4 ppg, 5.4 rpg, 4.5 apg, 1.8 spg. Defense above average.

those numbers were inflated because kobe took a million shots a game

he took 2173 shots that season which is more then 27 shots a game

Hawkeye15
02-21-2012, 04:35 PM
Kobe was the best player in 2006. 35.4 ppg, 5.4 rpg, 4.5 apg, 1.8 spg. Defense above average.

that's just the thing. You are going to be very hard pressed to find a single year where Kobe Bryant was the best individual player. His greatness lies within his ability to consistently be a 1st team all NBA caliber player for well over a decade. That is nearly impossible to do, hence why Kobe is a top 10 player ever.

MossyMoss
02-21-2012, 04:35 PM
2000 - Bryant
2001 - Bryant
2002 - Kobe
2003 - Kobe
2004 - Kobe
2005 - Kobe
2006 - Kobe
2007 - Black Mamba
2008 - Black Mamba
2009 - Black Mamba
2010 - KB24
2011 - KB24
2012 - We'll see at the end of the season, too early to tell.

Hawkeye15
02-21-2012, 04:37 PM
Dirk's supporting cast was better and thus got to the finals. Kobe had Smush, Kwame and Brian Cook and a pothead inconsistent Lamar Odom and unathletic Luke Walton to work with.

careful, that argument can be used against Kobe for 80% of his career when speaking of other players. Again, you will have a tough time proving Kobe was the best player at any given time. Its his consistency that has him up there with the all time greats.

ManRam
02-21-2012, 04:37 PM
Dirk's supporting cast was better and thus got to the finals. Kobe had Smush, Kwame and Brian Cook and a pothead inconsistent Lamar Odom and unathletic Luke Walton to work with.

So Dirk's supporting cast makes him worse than he actually was, and makes kobe better than he actually was?

I find it funny how laker fans are now suddenly pointed to those whopping 3 years he didn't have championship-caliber talent around to make him seem even better than he was. poor guy! three years with a poor cast...how ever could he have survived.

your logic is so flawed because he's benefited so mightily in his career in terms of legacy because of his teammates. you can't have it both ways...


dirk was better that year, period. i don't care about casts, team success, or anything...dirk, when he was on the court playing basketball, was playing basketball at a higher level than kobe.

EL HEAT
02-21-2012, 04:39 PM
2000- Shaq
2001- Shaq
2002- McGrady
2003- Duncan
2004- Garnett
2005- Garnett
2006- Wade (unbelievable title run)
2007- Dirk
2008- Paul
2009- James
2010- James
2011- James

utl768
02-21-2012, 04:40 PM
shocked wade gets no love for 2006

he was ridiculously good that year

utl768
02-21-2012, 04:41 PM
2000- Shaq
2001- Shaq
2002- McGrady
2003- Duncan
2004- Garnett
2005- Garnett
2006- Wade (unbelievable title run)
2007- Dirk
2008- Paul
2009- James
2010- James
2011- James

:clap::clap::)

J_M_B
02-21-2012, 04:41 PM
2000- Shaq
2001- Shaq
2002- McGrady
2003- Duncan
2004- Garnett
2005- Garnett
2006- Dirk
2007- Dirk
2008- Paul
2009- LeBron
2010- LeBron
2011- LeBron

J_M_B
02-21-2012, 04:42 PM
:clap::clap::)

His 2008-2009 season was actually better ..

& homerism aside, Dirk was the best player during the 2006 season

ManRam
02-21-2012, 04:45 PM
yeah, if dirk wasn't the best in 2006...it was probably wade, not kobe, especially because of that playoff run. dirk was the best all season, wade catches up due to playoffs.

but i'll still maintain that it was dirk. he was unreal that season.

ThuglifeJ
02-21-2012, 04:45 PM
the good years...

2000 - Shaq. AI.
2001 - Shaq. AI. VC.
2002 - Duncan. Kidd
2003 - TMac. Duncan.
2004 - KG
2005 - KG. Dirk
2006 - Dirk. Kobe. Wade.
2007 - Dirk
2008 - CP3
2009 - LeBron
2010 - Kobe (come on! Finals vs Magic was legend)
2011 - Dirk (finals performance..) LeBron.

Ik im wrong to most ppl on some but im going buy what I witnessed with a bit of favoritism. Stats arent everything.

JordansBulls
02-21-2012, 04:53 PM
What's the reasoning for KG in 2005 if the team didnt make the playoffs?

Bring The Heat
02-21-2012, 05:12 PM
How about Wade's 2009 season where he was the scoring champ and led his team full of young rookies to the 5 seed and took the Hawks to 7 games? I think that is worthy of being the best player in the league at the time. He completely dominated that season

ManRam
02-21-2012, 05:15 PM
What's the reasoning for KG in 2005 if the team didnt make the playoffs?

His TEAM didn't make the playoffs. I think it's a no-brainer that individually he had the best season in the NBA, regardless of team. You'd agree with that, right?

He had a decent, but defintiely below-average cast that season. On paper, they should have squeeked into the playoffs, but they had no depth at all, Spreewell was atrocious all season. Cassell was solid, but started fewer than half the games that season. Wally didn't have his best year at all. Hoiberg just hoisted threes and did nothing else. It was basically a one-man show all year.

44-38 for that squad is definitely no worse than it should have down. I wouldn't argue to the death that he was the best player, I just think he was. Can't fault him for what's around him, can you? Kind of like the Kobe situation, expect there were players having better individual seasons than Kobe in 2006...there weren't many/any playing better than KG in 2005.

I'm sure Hawk can weigh in better than I can...

ManRam
02-21-2012, 05:18 PM
How about Wade's 2009 season where he was the scoring champ and led his team full of young rookies to the 5 seed and took the Hawks to 7 games? I think that is worthy of being the best player in the league at the time. He completely dominated that season

I don't think he "completely dominated" that season. Tell me how he "dominated" more than LeBron, or Paul, or even Howard....more than just being a scoring champion and losing in the first round.

He had a great season, for sure, but others were greater.

UPRock
02-21-2012, 05:20 PM
2000-Shaquile O'neil
2001-Shaquile O'neil Darkhorse: Tim Duncan
2002-Tracy McGrady Darkhorse: Tim Duncan/Jason Kidd
2003- Tim Duncan Darkhorse: Peja Stojakovic
2004-Kevin Garnett
2005-Steve Nash
2006- Dirk Nowitzki Darkhorse: Dwyane Wade/Kobe Bryant
2007- Kobe Bryant Darkhorse: Dirk Nowitzki
2008- Chris Paul
2009- LeBron James Darkhorse: Dwyane Wade
2010- LeBron James
2011- LeBron James

LAKERMANIA
02-21-2012, 05:25 PM
Very shocked that Kobe has been on only one list so far... really guys? really? Is the hate that bad?

LA4life24/8
02-21-2012, 05:29 PM
wow all i have to say is... WOW... kobe is a better all time player but was the never the single best player any year??? how about the 2 years he led the lakers to championships? how about the 2 years nash was given the mvp over kobe on some bs ? how about the year kobe averaged 35 points a game w a terrible teammate cast so all the attention was on him? of course he took 27+ shots a game that season thats the only way they had any chance of winning any games... everyone saying wade and dirk just because they made it to the finals that year... jokestuff and im sorry i love KG but he was never the best player any year ever... yall hatin on KOBE and LBJ may be the best overall this year and maybe last but from 08 on?? naw yall crazy

pd7631
02-21-2012, 05:31 PM
2000 -Shaq
2001 -AI
2002 -Tim Duncan
2003 -Tim Duncan
2004 -Kevin Garnett
2005 -Steve Nash
2006 -Steve Nash
2007 -Dirk
2008 -Kobe
2009 -Lebron
2010 -Lebron
2011 -Derrick Rose

Hawkeye15
02-21-2012, 05:38 PM
What's the reasoning for KG in 2005 if the team didnt make the playoffs?

Best PER, highest rebound rate, most win shares, on, and on, and on. Its a team sport. Can't hold individuals accountable for having 2 whiny players looking for contracts that mail it in. KG may have been more worthy of the MVP that year then in 2004.

Hawkeye15
02-21-2012, 05:38 PM
2000 -Shaq
2001 -AI
2002 -Tim Duncan
2003 -Tim Duncan
2004 -Kevin Garnett
2005 -Steve Nash
2006 -Steve Nash
2007 -Dirk
2008 -Kobe
2009 -Lebron
2010 -Lebron
2011 -Derrick Rose

so you are just going to list the MVP's? Even though any knowledgeable fan knows that is not how to accurately evaluate? I know you are a Philly fan, but Iverson has never been a top 3 NBA player.

LAKERMANIA
02-21-2012, 05:39 PM
so you are just going to list the MVP's? Even though any knowledgeable fan knows that is not how to accurately evaluate?

So you're a knowledgeable fan huh?

Hawkeye15
02-21-2012, 05:41 PM
Very shocked that Kobe has been on only one list so far... really guys? really? Is the hate that bad?

Its not hate. Make a case. Statistically Kobe has zero case in any given year. So you now move onto the stuff we can't prove.

Hawkeye15
02-21-2012, 05:42 PM
lesson on debate. Instead of calling everyone out who didn't vote for your guy, make a case instead of calling someone a hater.

Hawkeye15
02-21-2012, 05:43 PM
So you're a knowledgeable fan huh?

I make no claims for myself, I simply ask others to think for themselves instead of just listing the MVP winners.

Avenged
02-21-2012, 05:47 PM
So Kobe was never the best player. Not even once. That's news to me.

LAKERMANIA
02-21-2012, 05:47 PM
So Kobe was never the best player. Not even once. That's news to me.

It's apparently common knowledge for PSD

pd7631
02-21-2012, 05:50 PM
so you are just going to list the MVP's? Even though any knowledgeable fan knows that is not how to accurately evaluate? I know you are a Philly fan, but Iverson has never been a top 3 NBA player.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SBZ2jlhwpR0
^^
Shaq at one point in time thought AI was one of the 5 greatest players to ever play the game, so to say that he was never even top 3 in a single season is going overboard.

You can look back at 01' and say that statistically he wasn't the best player, but that's not taking into account the intangibles he brought to the court or the leadership he displayed. Plus the fact that he did more with less, than possibly any other player in league history. You win MVP, you're the best player.

Hawkeye15
02-21-2012, 05:56 PM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SBZ2jlhwpR0
^^
Shaq at one point in time thought AI was one of the 5 greatest players to ever play the game, so to say that he was never even top 3 in a single season is going overboard.

You can look back at 01' and say that statistically he wasn't the best player, but that's not taking into account the intangibles he brought to the court or the leadership he displayed. Plus the fact that he did more with less, than possibly any other player in league history. You win MVP, you're the best player.

Shaq says a lot of things haha, cmon.

Man, AI was fun to watch. But he was a liability on defense, and just couldn't play fair with others in his prime, hence why they had to build that team tailor made to fit AI. His roster will go down as one of the more underrated rosters by most fans. UNREAL defensive team that could rebound, and fit within Brown's demanding, grind out system.

I truly question Iverson as a leader. He is one of the toughest players to play physically, but leaders set an example in practice, off the floor, and not just in the 48 minutes surrounding games.

The best player does not win MVP a decent portion of the time man. As recently as last year we have proof.

UPRock
02-21-2012, 06:00 PM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SBZ2jlhwpR0
^^
Shaq at one point in time thought AI was one of the 5 greatest players to ever play the game, so to say that he was never even top 3 in a single season is going overboard.

You can look back at 01' and say that statistically he wasn't the best player, but that's not taking into account the intangibles he brought to the court or the leadership he displayed. Plus the fact that he did more with less, than possibly any other player in league history. You win MVP, you're the best player.

Shaq? The guy that said that Bynum is the best center in the game?

KnicksorBust
02-21-2012, 06:01 PM
2000-Shaquile O'neil
2001-Shaquile O'neil Darkhorse: Tim Duncan
2002-Tracy McGrady Darkhorse: Tim Duncan/Jason Kidd
2003- Tim Duncan Darkhorse: Peja Stojakovic
2004-Kevin Garnett
2005-Steve Nash
2006- Dirk Nowitzki Darkhorse: Dwyane Wade/Kobe Bryant
2007- Kobe Bryant Darkhorse: Dirk Nowitzki
2008- Chris Paul
2009- LeBron James Darkhorse: Dwyane Wade
2010- LeBron James
2011- LeBron James

My favorite list. Love the well-deserved recognition Wade gets and the T-Mac pick.

Hawkeye15
02-21-2012, 06:02 PM
I will say it again. Kobe's greatness comes from being a top 5 player for 13-14 years. That is impossible. It doesn't come from his absolute peak being the best in the NBA. It comes from his freakish consistency to stay on top.

knightstemplar
02-21-2012, 06:09 PM
2000 - Shaquille O'Neal
2001 - Shaquille O'Neal
2002 - Shaquille O'Neal
2003 - Tim Duncan
2004 - Kevin Garnett
2005 - Tim Duncan
2006 - Kobe Bryant
2007 - Kobe Bryant
2008 - Kobe Bryant
2009 - Kobe Bryant
2010 - Kobe Bryant
2011 - Dirk Nowitzki
2012 - Lebron James

Huss-O-Lin
02-21-2012, 06:10 PM
In the 2000's, which player was the best player each year?

2000 - Shaq
2001 - Shaq
2002 - Shaq
2003 - Tim Duncan
2004 - Kevin Garnett
2005 - Shaq
2006 - Steve Nash
2007 - Kobe
2008 - Kobe
2009 - Kobe
2010 - Kobe
2011 - Kevin Durant
2012 - (Probably Kobe honestly)

It's alright love, I let a hater hate

CudiOnMyiPod
02-21-2012, 06:11 PM
2006, 2007 and 2011 were all Dirk's years. Statistically, last season, Dirk wasn't the best but he won games when it mattered in the regular season and had a top 5-10 playoff run of all time.

knightstemplar
02-21-2012, 06:13 PM
2006, 2007 and 2011 were all Dirk's years. Statistically, last season, Dirk wasn't the best but he won games when it mattered in the regular season and had a top 5-10 playoff run of all time.
No he didn't, it wasn't even better than last year's (2010 - Kobe)

HouRealCoach
02-21-2012, 06:17 PM
LOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOL...

Dirk was most certainly NOT better than Kobe in 06 in no way, shape, form, or fashion

Seriously tho.. that **** is hilarious

GodsSon
02-21-2012, 06:19 PM
2000 - Duncan
2001 - Shaq
2002 - Kidd
2003 - KG
2004 - KG
2005 - Nash
2006 - Kobe
2007 - Dirk
2008 - Paul
2009 - LeBron
2010 - LeBron
2011 - Love
2012 - Durant

Hawkeye15
02-21-2012, 06:19 PM
No he didn't, it wasn't even better than last year's (2010 - Kobe)

Dirk has had a few better playoff runs than Kobe has believe it or not.

Dirk
http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/n/nowitdi01.html

Kobe
http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/b/bryanko01.html

Dirk has some incredible playoff years. Always overlooked due to his team falling at some point.

knightstemplar
02-21-2012, 06:20 PM
2000- Shaq
2001- Shaq
2002- Duncan
2003- Duncan
2004- Garnett
2005- Garnett
2006- Nowitzki
2007- Nowitzki
2008- Paul
2009- James
2010- James

Before I even hear it from Kobe fans, I have stated a number of other times, that while I agree he is a top 7-10 player ever, it has more to do with his ridiculous ability to be a top 2-6 player for 13 or 14 seasons. At no point do I personally feel he was the best player in the NBA individually, over the course of the entire season. He has never led the NBA in a single advanced category outside usage. His rings are a product of team play as well, not individual.

Thought I would throw a disclaimer out there before a Laker fan came in here and got pissed.

Is this real life?

Hawkeye15
02-21-2012, 06:20 PM
LOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOL...

Dirk was most certainly NOT better than Kobe in 06 in no way, shape, form, or fashion

Seriously tho.. that **** is hilarious

why do you say that?

Hawkeye15
02-21-2012, 06:21 PM
Is this real life?

make a case otherwise if you disagree, instead of basically insulting my opinion.

knightstemplar
02-21-2012, 06:25 PM
make a case otherwise if you disagree, instead of basically insulting my opinion.
Offense, Defense, Intangibles, Playmaking, Passing >

HouRealCoach
02-21-2012, 06:26 PM
2000-Shaquile O'neil
2001-Shaquile O'neil Darkhorse: Tim Duncan
2002-Tracy McGrady Darkhorse: Tim Duncan/Jason Kidd
2003- Tim Duncan Darkhorse: Peja Stojakovic
2004-Kevin Garnett
2005-Steve Nash
2006- Dirk Nowitzki Darkhorse: Dwyane Wade/Kobe Bryant
2007- Kobe Bryant Darkhorse: Dirk Nowitzki
2008- Chris Paul
2009- LeBron James Darkhorse: Dwyane Wade
2010- LeBron James
2011- LeBron James

So Kobe wasn't better than Dirk in 2006? 35, 5, 4...

I wonder what Dirk would say about that... He outscored Dirk's entire squad in 3 quarters was it? I think that says enough & not to mention the gamewinners, 40+ point games, 81...

Am I not getting the joke or something?

Lim
02-21-2012, 06:27 PM
I have been saying for the longest time that kobe has never been the best player in the league. good to see a bunch of non biased ppl agree with me (this does not mean kobe is not an all time great, cause he is)

Lakersfan2483
02-21-2012, 06:34 PM
In the 2000's, which player was the best player each year?

2000 - Shaq
2001 - Shaq
2002 - Shaq
2003 - Tim Duncan
2004 - Kevin Garnett
2005 - Shaq
2006 - Steve Nash
2007 - Kobe
2008 - Kobe
2009 - Kobe
2010 - Kobe
2011 - Kevin Durant
2012 - (Probably Kobe honestly)

It's alright love, I let a hater hate

Good list although in 2011 I had Lebron as the no. 1 guy.

Jetsguy
02-21-2012, 06:35 PM
So Kobe wasn't better than Dirk in 2006? 35, 5, 4...

I wonder what Dirk would say about that... He outscored Dirk's entire squad in 3 quarters was it? I think that says enough & not to mention the gamewinners, 40+ point games, 81...

Am I not getting the joke or something?

It just depends how you gauge the best.

Kobe had a great PPG line but he was a chucker and compared to Dirk much less efficient.

Given the same opportunites Dirk very well may have blown Kobe's numbers out across the board.

CHANGO
02-21-2012, 06:35 PM
Kobephiles are :mad: LMAO...

2008: Lebron or Paul
2009: Lebron
2010: Lebron
2011: Lebron

PhillyFaninLA
02-21-2012, 06:39 PM
2000-Shaquile O'neil
2001-Shaquile O'neil
2002-Tim Duncan
2003- Tim Duncan
2004-Kevin Garnett
2005-Steve Nash or Shaquile O'Neil
2006- Dwyane Wade
2007- Dirk Nowitzki or maybe Steve Nash
2008- Lebron James
2009- LeBron James
2010- LeBron James
2011- LeBron James
2012 - TBD

To the Kobe people I get how and why you love the guy but early in his career he was the second best player on his team, in the middle you had Duncan, Garnett, and great years from Nash, Wade and Dirk, and toward the end Lebron James has been the best player in the league if you take hate out of the equation and look at overall gameplay. Kobe has always been one of the best players in the game but rarely if ever actually the best. Its not a slight and its hard to stay a top 3 - 5 guy year after year but he's rarely if ever been the best.


Also when someone picks someone other then your guy it isn't hate its a difference of opinion. Reacting and whining about it with no evidence or support only leads people to dislike the player and your team more.

knightstemplar
02-21-2012, 06:44 PM
Kobephiles are :mad: LMAO...

2008: Lebron or Paul
2009: Lebron
2010: Lebron
2011: Lebron

so mad...

What happened those years?

2008: Kobe wins MVP, leads team to Finals
2009: back to Finals, Championship + Finals MVP
2010: 3rd straight Finals, back to back Championships + Finals MVP
2011: Lebron was outscored by a bench player in the Finals, Heat lose.

Bruno
02-21-2012, 06:45 PM
2000 - Shaq- Karl Malone
2001 - Shaq- Kobe Bryant
2002 - Shaq- Tim Duncan
2003 - Duncan- Tracy McGrady
2004 - KG- Duncan
2005 - Duncan- KG
2006 - Bryant- Wade
2007 - Bryant- Duncan
2008 - Paul- Bryant
2009 - James- Bryant
2010 - James- Wade
2011 - Dirk- James

JordansBulls
02-21-2012, 06:56 PM
His TEAM didn't make the playoffs. I think it's a no-brainer that individually he had the best season in the NBA, regardless of team. You'd agree with that, right?

He had a decent, but defintiely below-average cast that season. On paper, they should have squeeked into the playoffs, but they had no depth at all, Spreewell was atrocious all season. Cassell was solid, but started fewer than half the games that season. Wally didn't have his best year at all. Hoiberg just hoisted threes and did nothing else. It was basically a one-man show all year.

44-38 for that squad is definitely no worse than it should have down. I wouldn't argue to the death that he was the best player, I just think he was. Can't fault him for what's around him, can you? Kind of like the Kobe situation, expect there were players having better individual seasons than Kobe in 2006...there weren't many/any playing better than KG in 2005.

I'm sure Hawk can weigh in better than I can...

They had the same team they had the season before and went from a #1 seed to a not even making the playoffs.

Hawkeye15
02-21-2012, 07:15 PM
They had the same team they had the season before and went from a #1 seed to a not even making the playoffs.

with everything ManRam listed, as far as Cassell being hrt a good portion of the year, or whining about his contract versus playing, Spree taking the year off because he was unhappy with his contract status, Cassell doing the same when he actually played, and with Hoiberg being our most consistent player other then KG and Wally, we were in trouble. We fell from 6th in defensive rating to 15th with Earvin Johnson getting hurt, and those 2 selfish *** holes doing nothing to contribute other than their constant whining about contract extensions. It was amazing KG couild will them to 44 wins honestly. The chemistry that led to the Wolves having the highest scoring trio in the NBA in 03-04' was gone due to selfishness among Spree and Cassell, and our defense slipped due to having to give Wally, Hoiberg and Hudson big roles, and the team just quit on Saunders.

KG was great that year. His teammates were not. JB, its not all about HCA, and Playoffs, etc. You have to look year by year. You can't just pick the best player from the playoffs and deem him the best player all year, or the guy who won Finals MVP the best player all year. That is far too shortsighted. Its 82+ (for some). Every game matters when evaluating a player.

So, while on paper they basically had the same team as the year prior, on the floor it was anything but.

Hawkeye15
02-21-2012, 07:17 PM
Offense, Defense, Intangibles, Playmaking, Passing >

Dirk was much more efficient offensively in those years, Paul was as well, with better defense and passing. Intangibles can't be measured, so they are virtually useless in a debate because you can't prove them.

knightstemplar
02-21-2012, 07:23 PM
Dirk was much more efficient offensively in those years, Paul was as well, with better defense and passing. Intangibles can't be measured, so they are virtually useless in a debate because you can't prove them.

Dirk shot 3% better than Kobe in '06, Kobe averaged 8.8 more PPG
You telling me that 8.8 less PPG on 3% better FG% is better offensively? lol
Dirk shot 3.9% better than Kobe in '07, Kobe averaged 7.0 more PPG

Offense - clear who is better
Defense - not close

Keep reaching

AI
02-21-2012, 07:25 PM
No love for Iverson in 2001? I see how it goes.

basketfan4life
02-21-2012, 07:29 PM
[QUOTE=ManRamForPrez24;21049242]Dirk: 26.6 ppg, 9.0 rpg, 2.8 apg.
kobe took 27 shots a game that year. if dirk took 27 shots a game he would have scored 40+ points a gameQUOTE]

if this is how you look at things in basketball or life, you are headed to real trouble man...That is called straight logic.

knightstemplar
02-21-2012, 07:30 PM
Dirk: 26.6 ppg, 9.0 rpg, 2.8 apg.

Dirk shot 48% from the field, 40.6% from three. Compare that to Kobe's 45% and 34.7% from three.

kobe took 27 shots a game that year. if dirk took 27 shots a game he would have scored 40+ points a game.

Dirk had a better PER, more win shares, more WS/48, higher eFG% and TS%, and so on and so on.

Dirk was better.

:laugh:

Dirk has a WAY higher PER than Larry Bird, Magic Johnson, Kobe Bryant
Dirk >>> Bird, Magic, Kobe.

He was better.

basketfan4life
02-21-2012, 07:32 PM
Best PER, highest rebound rate, most win shares, on, and on, and on. Its a team sport. Can't hold individuals accountable for having 2 whiny players looking for contracts that mail it in. KG may have been more worthy of the MVP that year then in 2004.

best player in the league would make the playoffs no matter what...That is exactly what Kobe did in 06-07...İ don't want the best statisticall player and i don't call him the best if he can't bring my team any success.

CudiOnMyiPod
02-21-2012, 07:40 PM
.

basketfan4life
02-21-2012, 07:42 PM
all of the world would laugh their arse off, if they saw the list with almost every non-laker fan thinking Kobe was not the best player, not even one single year...

Hey lakers fans, let this forum be a full of bandwagon jumpers and laker haters, they can't have the joy they are having now, they want a player with better PER over a player who brings his team countless succes, and i don't get that.


İ'm done here, every other time i come in to this forum i just feel like i'm wasting time of my life, i quit, have a good life, cheers.

CudiOnMyiPod
02-21-2012, 07:50 PM
If Lakers fans are going to use scoring points as primary arguments then why hasn't MontaEllis been mentioned? Jesus christ....

Kobe is a top 10 player of all time and is better than Dirk all time but Dirk has had 4 or 5 better seasons. Notably 2006 where he put up amazing numbers and went to the Finals. Kobe got burned in the first round...

2007 and last season Dirk was the best too.

Stop getting butt hurt when people don't put Kobe in the same class as God...

I'd say Kobe had the best season about 4-5 of the past 10-11 seasons. Most Laker fans in this thread are appalled that people aren't putting Kobe for each of the 11 seasons. It is ridiculous.

Lim
02-21-2012, 08:02 PM
i honestly cant tell who is worse, laker fans or knick fans?

LakersMaster24
02-21-2012, 08:03 PM
2000 - Shaq- Karl Malone
2001 - Shaq- Kobe Bryant
2002 - Shaq- Tim Duncan
2003 - Duncan- Tracy McGrady
2004 - KG- Duncan
2005 - Duncan- KG
2006 - Bryant- Wade
2007 - Bryant- Duncan
2008 - Paul- Bryant
2009 - James- Bryant
2010 - James- Wade
2011 - Dirk- James

:clap: This.

ArmLaker
02-21-2012, 08:05 PM
2000-Shaq hands down
2001-AI/Shaq
2002-TD/JKidd
2003-TMac/Kobe
2004-KG
2005-TD/Nash/AI
2006-Kobe hands down
2007-Kobe
2008-Kobe
2009-Kobe
2010-LeBron
2011-D.Rose
2012-Kobe so far

69centers
02-21-2012, 08:12 PM
2004 KG
2005 Shaq

ManRam
02-21-2012, 08:27 PM
:laugh:

Dirk has a WAY higher PER than Larry Bird, Magic Johnson, Kobe Bryant
Dirk >>> Bird, Magic, Kobe.

He was better.

yes, since that's exactly what i'm saying!! you're definitely getting it!

dirk might go down as a top 15-20 player. it's not crazy to think that he had better individual years than some of those guys.

the fact that you have brought no substantial argument to the table is laughable. try arguing with logic....not whatever this is.


what's funniest is that the strongest arguments that have been brought up are by the people that are now just getting chalked off as "kobe/laker haters". classic!

CudiOnMyiPod
02-21-2012, 08:38 PM
yes, since that's exactly what i'm saying!! you're definitely getting it!

dirk might go down as a top 15-20 player. it's not crazy to think that he had better individual years than some of those guys.

the fact that you have brought no substantial argument to the table is laughable. try arguing with logic....not whatever this is.


what's funniest is that the strongest arguments that have been brought up are by the people that are now just getting chalked off as "kobe/laker haters". classic!

It's funny. A lot of their arguments are "lol you say he is better than Kobe" and "Kobe scored 81 in a game". Wilt Chamberlain scored 100 in a game and averaged 50/25 one year and they would think it is preposterous to say Wilt is better than Kobe.

DaVille
02-21-2012, 08:42 PM
surveying this thread begs the question; How is Kobe considered top10 player all-time according to the media? Did titles inflate his ranking?

Swap peak Tracy McGrady with Kobe (Shaq, Horry, Fisher, Rick Fox, Glen Rice) How many Championship would he win?

magic0320
02-21-2012, 08:45 PM
surveying this thread begs the question; How is Kobe considered top10 player all-time according to the media? Did titles inflate his ranking?

Swap peak Tracy McGrady with Kobe (Shaq, Horry, Fisher, Rick Fox, Glen Rice) How many Championship would he win?

so what? what ifs are so stupid. all it matters is kobe made it work with all those players that's why he won. look at heat last year they didn't win. so what's your point?:eyebrow:

Sota4Ever
02-21-2012, 08:49 PM
Kobe is absolutely a top 10 all time player.

DaLyingofJungl3
02-21-2012, 08:50 PM
2000- Shaq
2001- Shaq(should gotten MVP that yr)
2002- Duncan
2003- Duncan
2004- Garnett
2005- Garnett/Nash
2006- Nowitzki
2007- Nowitzki
2008- Paul(should been MVP)
2009- James/Wade
2010- James
2011-LeBron/Howard

DaVille
02-21-2012, 09:02 PM
so what? what ifs are so stupid. all it matters is kobe made it work with all those players that's why he won. look at heat last year they didn't win. so what's your point?:eyebrow:

Most def. Curiosity makes people wonder. Give T-Mac Coach Phil Jackson, greatest Big man in our era Shaq, and that supporting cast. How would he fair?

THE GIPPER
02-21-2012, 09:09 PM
I cant decide who had the best year in 08/09 out of Paul, Wade or Lebron. Three guys who just had amazing statistical seasons.

http://www.basketball-reference.com/play-index/pcm_finder.cgi?request=1&sum=0&p1=wadedw01&y1=2009&p2=paulch01&y2=2009&p4=jamesle01&y4=2009

Hawkeye15
02-21-2012, 09:22 PM
Dirk shot 3% better than Kobe in '06, Kobe averaged 8.8 more PPG
You telling me that 8.8 less PPG on 3% better FG% is better offensively? lol
Dirk shot 3.9% better than Kobe in '07, Kobe averaged 7.0 more PPG

Offense - clear who is better
Defense - not close

Keep reaching

http://www.basketball-reference.com/play-index/pcm_finder.cgi?request=1&sum=0&p1=nowitdi01&y1=2006&p2=bryanko01&y2=2006

05-06'. Dirk better.

http://www.basketball-reference.com/play-index/pcm_finder.cgi?request=1&sum=0&p1=nowitdi01&y1=2007&p2=bryanko01&y2=2007

06-07'. Dirk easily better.

Hawkeye15
02-21-2012, 09:24 PM
Kobe is absolutely a top 10 all time player.

yes he is, but it doesn't change the fact that he can't claim to be the best player in any given season.

Sota4Ever
02-21-2012, 09:27 PM
I know that I was responding to the guy above that said that Kobe shouldn't be considered a top 10 player. Only reason he is a top 10 player because of his ships which isn't the case.

Hawkeye15
02-21-2012, 09:28 PM
yes, since that's exactly what i'm saying!! you're definitely getting it!

dirk might go down as a top 15-20 player. it's not crazy to think that he had better individual years than some of those guys.

the fact that you have brought no substantial argument to the table is laughable. try arguing with logic....not whatever this is.


what's funniest is that the strongest arguments that have been brought up are by the people that are now just getting chalked off as "kobe/laker haters". classic!

every Kobe thread I have ever been in, outside of Bruno offering great arguments now and then.

Hawkeye15
02-21-2012, 09:32 PM
I know that I was responding to the guy above that said that Kobe shouldn't be considered a top 10 player. Only reason he is a top 10 player because of his ships which isn't the case.

They help, but that is not the primary reason. Kobe is a killer. He needs wins like we need water. He has a mentality rarely seen in sports, and is for sure a top 10 player of all time because of being a top 3-5 player for well over a decade. That is impossible. I hate Kobe with a passion, but you have to respect the level he played at for 15 years.

AceMan
02-21-2012, 09:37 PM
Kobe's 2005-2006 Season was the the best of the decade. I know people don't like guys who take that many shots, but what he did scoring 35 points per page when his 2nd best teammate was Smush ****ing Parker was just unbelievable. He literally dragged that team to the playoffs on his back. LeBron and KG had some ****** teams, but never like that. Other than MJ and maybe LeBron at his absolute peak, I don't think anyone else could have done that. You can't tell me he wasn't the best player in the league that year. CP3 should have won the '08 MVP, but '06 should have been Kobe, he was the best player in the league.

sunsfan88
02-21-2012, 09:39 PM
Nash was the best in 05.

Sota4Ever
02-21-2012, 09:39 PM
Double post

Sota4Ever
02-21-2012, 09:39 PM
They help, but that is not the primary reason. Kobe is a killer. He needs wins like we need water. He has a mentality rarely seen in sports, and is for sure a top 10 player of all time because of being a top 3-5 player for well over a decade. That is impossible. I hate Kobe with a passion, but you have to respect the level he played at for 15 years.

Exactly my point except for the hating with a passion part.

Hawkeye15
02-21-2012, 09:41 PM
Nash was the best in 05.

Nash is a wizard offensively. But you can't rank a guy #1 with him being such a horrific defender. Love Nash, never a top 3 player in the NBA.

fresh prince
02-21-2012, 10:03 PM
2000 - Bryant
2001 - Bryant
2002 - Kobe
2003 - Kobe
2004 - Kobe
2005 - Kobe
2006 - Kobe
2007 - Black Mamba
2008 - Black Mamba
2009 - Black Mamba
2010 - KB24
2011 - KB24
2012 - We'll see at the end of the season, too early to tell.

This lmao..

In all seriousness in most years its been Kobe.. Shaq Duncan and Lebron are the only other guys who have a valid claim as well

NBAfan4life
02-21-2012, 10:07 PM
Dirk: 26.6 ppg, 9.0 rpg, 2.8 apg.

Dirk shot 48% from the field, 40.6% from three. Compare that to Kobe's 45% and 34.7% from three.

kobe took 27 shots a game that year. if dirk took 27 shots a game he would have scored 40+ points a game.

Dirk had a better PER, more win shares, more WS/48, higher eFG% and TS%, and so on and so on.

Dirk was better.

The only problem I have with that logic is if Dirk did take that many more shots his effeciency probably would of dropped too. It is also not like Dirk was turning down a ton of shots with his whopping 2.8 assists per game.

I honestly believe Kobe 06 and 08 he was the best player in the league.

fresh prince
02-21-2012, 10:12 PM
If Lakers fans are going to use scoring points as primary arguments then why hasn't MontaEllis been mentioned? Jesus christ....

Kobe is a top 10 player of all time and is better than Dirk all time but Dirk has had 4 or 5 better seasons. Notably 2006 where he put up amazing numbers and went to the Finals. Kobe got burned in the first round...

2007 and last season Dirk was the best too.

Stop getting butt hurt when people don't put Kobe in the same class as God...

I'd say Kobe had the best season about 4-5 of the past 10-11 seasons. Most Laker fans in this thread are appalled that people aren't putting Kobe for each of the 11 seasons. It is ridiculous.

I don't think Kobe should be the answer for all 11 but to say Dirk has been better than him individually for one season is a stretch outside of 06 and youre right maybe last year..

Kobe was an ELITE defender for most of this decade as well..

The thread was who was the best and that doesn't always mean the most efficient. Knocking Kobe for efficiency is the equivalent of complaining about Kate Upton having a mole on her ***

sunsfan88
02-21-2012, 10:42 PM
Nash is a wizard offensively. But you can't rank a guy #1 with him being such a horrific defender. Love Nash, never a top 3 player in the NBA.

Its what he did that year for the Phoenix Suns that matters. Sure he may have been bad defensively that year but that did not stop the Suns from being one of the best teams that year and hands down the most exciting team to watch in the NBA.

Hawkeye15
02-21-2012, 11:40 PM
Its what he did that year for the Phoenix Suns that matters. Sure he may have been bad defensively that year but that did not stop the Suns from being one of the best teams that year and hands down the most exciting team to watch in the NBA.

Trust me man, I totally understand. Nash got that team playing as well as they could play. But there were better individual players is all.

Chronz
02-22-2012, 12:26 AM
The only problem I have with that logic is if Dirk did take that many more shots his effeciency probably would of dropped too
It definitely wouldve but its not like Kobe has ever shown the ability to display Dirk levels of efficiency so whats the point?


It is also not like Dirk was turning down a ton of shots with his whopping 2.8 assists per game.

Not sure what your trying to get at here.


I honestly believe Kobe 06 and 08 he was the best player in the league.
What happened in 07 that made Kobe so different?

Chronz
02-22-2012, 12:40 AM
Kobe's 2005-2006 Season was the the best of the decade. I know people don't like guys who take that many shots, but what he did scoring 35 points per page when his 2nd best teammate was Smush ****ing Parker was just unbelievable. He literally dragged that team to the playoffs on his back. LeBron and KG had some ****** teams, but never like that. Other than MJ and maybe LeBron at his absolute peak, I don't think anyone else could have done that. You can't tell me he wasn't the best player in the league that year. CP3 should have won the '08 MVP, but '06 should have been Kobe, he was the best player in the league.
You dont have to lie in order to make your case. By the time Kobe retires Im sure you will be telling people they were so shorthanded that Phil Jackson himself had to log some PT.

Chronz
02-22-2012, 12:41 AM
Nash was the best in 05.

The year he didnt win MVP he has a much better case

Chronz
02-22-2012, 12:41 AM
Dirk shot 3% better than Kobe in '06, Kobe averaged 8.8 more PPG
You telling me that 8.8 less PPG on 3% better FG% is better offensively? lol
Dirk shot 3.9% better than Kobe in '07, Kobe averaged 7.0 more PPG

Offense - clear who is better
Defense - not close

Keep reaching
Your basing efficiency on FG%, therein lies your problem

Chronz
02-22-2012, 12:41 AM
LOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOL...

Dirk was most certainly NOT better than Kobe in 06 in no way, shape, form, or fashion

Seriously tho.. that **** is hilarious

Why? Because of PPG?

UPRock
02-22-2012, 01:08 AM
People are so hooked with PPG that is unbelievable. I was discussing with a friend of mine about who's the best NBA player right now, and he continuously said the same thing over and over again, "Kobe is the best because he scores a lot" What's the point of scoring a lot and not making your teammates better? Basketball is a team game after all, what's the point of shooting 27 times per game? Then he said "Kobe is the best because he got 5 rings, and is the best Laker of all time" If I'm not wrong both Abdul Jabbar and Magic Johnson won the same amount of rings in the Lakers, and they won it first, in a Legendary era in the NBA. Then he got mad at me and left.

LakersSaintsLSU
02-22-2012, 01:12 AM
SMH @ the dumb@553s you guys hate kobe too damn much i think kobe is the most hated on player ever he was the best player since shaq left nuff said
2000-2011 KOBE BRYANT ANYTHING ELSE IS JUST PURE HATRED

Chronz
02-22-2012, 01:16 AM
SMH @ the dumb@553s you guys hate kobe too damn much i think kobe is the most hated on player ever he was the best player since shaq left nuff said
2000-2011 KOBE BRYANT ANYTHING ELSE IS JUST PURE HATRED

PREACH ON BRO

KOBE WAS DA BEST FROM DAY1

ANYTHING ELSE IS JUST hate

DaVille
02-22-2012, 01:25 AM
PREACH ON BRO

KOBE WAS DA BEST FROM DAY1

ANYTHING ELSE IS JUST hate

HEC YAH

JORDAN AIN'T JACK.

KOBE 4 LIFE.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iY9HjNWbJvA

HuRRiCaNeS324
02-22-2012, 01:50 AM
Dwyane Wade in 09 was absolutely incredible. There is no doubt in my mind he was the best player that year. And no its not only because he led the league in scoring... He did EVERYTHING for that team every single game. He had a chip on his shoulder that year and he played like it.

2000 - Shaq
2001 - AI
2002 - Duncan
2003 - T Mac
2004 - KG
2005 - Dirk
2006 - Dirk/Kobe/D Wade (this year was hard)
2007 - Dirk
2008 - CP3
2009 - D Wade
2010 - Lebron
2011 - Lebron
2012 - Lebron

LakersSaintsLSU
02-22-2012, 02:13 AM
People are so hooked with PPG that is unbelievable. I was discussing with a friend of mine about who's the best NBA player right now, and he continuously said the same thing over and over again, "Kobe is the best because he scores a lot" What's the point of scoring a lot and not making your teammates better? Basketball is a team game after all, what's the point of shooting 27 times per game? Then he said "Kobe is the best because he got 5 rings, and is the best Laker of all time" If I'm not wrong both Abdul Jabbar and Magic Johnson won the same amount of rings in the Lakers, and they won it first, in a Legendary era in the NBA. Then he got mad at me and left.
:facepalm:
im not surprised by the hatred its a given

LakersSaintsLSU
02-22-2012, 02:14 AM
PREACH ON BRO

KOBE WAS DA BEST FROM DAY1

ANYTHING ELSE IS JUST hate

:cheers:

Lim
02-22-2012, 03:02 AM
SMH @ the dumb@553s you guys hate kobe too damn much i think kobe is the most hated on player ever he was the best player since shaq left nuff said
2000-2011 KOBE BRYANT ANYTHING ELSE IS JUST PURE HATRED

i hope for your sake that this is some troll attempt

Chronz
02-22-2012, 03:25 AM
HEC YAH

JORDAN AIN'T JACK.

KOBE 4 LIFE.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iY9HjNWbJvA

LOL thx for the link.

Sick editing skillz

Lakerhead4ever
02-22-2012, 03:54 AM
It's unbelievable the amount of hate Kobe gets. I agree with some of the names chosen, like shaq Duncan Lebron but damn most of u aren't even giving him one of the 11 years.

Tmac? Really? but yet know one chose iverson but u chose tmac lmao and know one chose Nash even with his back to back MVP's, but u chose wade for his playoff performance in 06 but yet know one chose dirk for last yr which was more impressive then wades. C'mon ppl don't let hawkeye brainwash you with his stats and personal biases

But oh we'll nba players, old and present continue to give Kobe his RESPECTIVE due.

kArSoN RyDaH
02-22-2012, 04:03 AM
Funny how players and coaches and gms and retired HOFers have been saying Kobe's the best year in and year out yet some of yall dumbass foos don't even give him his props. hahahaha Yall are some straight busters..

tyfreaks brotha
02-22-2012, 04:03 AM
2000 - Bryant
2001 - Bryant
2002 - Kobe
2003 - Kobe
2004 - Kobe
2005 - Kobe
2006 - Kobe
2007 - Black Mamba
2008 - Black Mamba
2009 - Black Mamba
2010 - KB24
2011 - KB24
2012 - We'll see at the end of the season, too early to tell. Just a lucky guess, but are you a Lakers fan?

kArSoN RyDaH
02-22-2012, 04:18 AM
I love being on PSD but man some of you guys have no lives. Do you ever get off of here? Do you realize that your opinion on the internet really means nothing? hahahaha

LakersSaintsLSU
02-22-2012, 04:47 AM
i hope for your sake that this is some troll attempt

i hope for your sake you unglue you eye lids

LakersSaintsLSU
02-22-2012, 04:49 AM
Funny how players and coaches and gms and retired HOFers have been saying Kobe's the best year in and year out yet some of yall dumbass foos don't even give him his props. hahahaha Yall are some straight busters..

^ THIS the only person who still deals with the nba who thinks otherwise is Chuck barkley notice how he always says "lebrons the best on the planet" at least 3 times b4 he even attempt to answer a question about lebron....of course a ringless ahole would say that....birds of a feather....

naps
02-22-2012, 04:53 AM
2000-Shaq
2001-Shaq
2002-Shaq
2003-Duncan
2004-KG
2005-Duncan
2006-Wade
2007-Dirk
2008-CP3/LeBron
2009-Wade
2010-LeBron
2011-LeBron
2012-LeBron




EDIT: It's funny kobephiles say Kobe was the best in 2009, 2010 because he won the ring; Stats don't matter and doesn't matter what teammates LeBron/Wade/CP3 had. Then again, the very same ones claim Kobe was the best in 2006, 2007 because Kobe had stats and had bad teammates. Whatever fits their bill. Can't have it both ways.

AceMan
02-22-2012, 05:20 AM
You dont have to lie in order to make your case. By the time Kobe retires Im sure you will be telling people they were so shorthanded that Phil Jackson himself had to log some PT.

http://www.basketball-reference.com/teams/LAL/2006.html

I'm sorry, but who would you prefer? Chris Mihm? Kwame Brown? Andrew Bynum as a rookie playing 7 minutes a game? Luke Walton? That team was him, Lamar Odom and a pile of ****. So I'm sorry if I incorrectly ranked Parker over the immortal Devean George or Brian Cook, but you get my point. It was one mega star (Kobe), one top 30 or so player who has proven to be a better fit off the bench (Odom), and nothing else. It's only 6 years later and only two of those guys not counting Bynum (Kwame and Ronny Turiaf) are still rotation players. Parker started at the point for them and is out of the league, Luke Walton hasn't played a meaningful minute in years, I'm not even sure if Mihm is alive, and we only know George for ****ing up a trade. That team was AWFUL. Kobe dragged that team to 45 wins in the west (which can't be overstated because of how much better the west was that year). You can bash Kobe for a lot of things, but this season was a pure master piece. From a degree of difficulty standpoint I'd put it against anything anyone did this decade. So in short, yes I am a liar and I can't believe you're discounting the solid 3 point shooting and defense the zen master gave them off the bench.

Shadowplay
02-22-2012, 05:49 AM
2000-Shaq
2001-Shaq
2002-Shaq
2003-Duncan
2004-Duncan
2005-Nash
2006-Wade
2007-Dirk
2008-Lebron
2009-Kobe
2010-Lebron
2011-Durant

Chronz
02-22-2012, 06:40 AM
http://www.basketball-reference.com/teams/LAL/2006.html

I'm sorry, but who would you prefer? Chris Mihm? Kwame Brown? Andrew Bynum as a rookie playing 7 minutes a game? Luke Walton? That team was him, Lamar Odom and a pile of ****. So I'm sorry if I incorrectly ranked Parker over the immortal Devean George or Brian Cook, but you get my point.
Yes I know the team so I get what your hinting at, a one man team with an immortal coach and a mediocre supporting cast. I still think you underrate his support and will purposely exaggerate claims in place of correctly contextualizing it, that was the point of my post.


It was one mega star (Kobe), one top 30 or so player who has proven to be a better fit off the bench (Odom), and nothing else. It's only 6 years later and only two of those guys not counting Bynum (Kwame and Ronny Turiaf) are still rotation players. Parker started at the point for them and is out of the league, Luke Walton hasn't played a meaningful minute in years, I'm not even sure if Mihm is alive, and we only know George for ****ing up a trade. That team was AWFUL. Kobe dragged that team to 45 wins in the west (which can't be overstated because of how much better the west was that year). You can bash Kobe for a lot of things, but this season was a pure master piece. From a degree of difficulty standpoint I'd put it against anything anyone did this decade. So in short, yes I am a liar and I can't believe you're discounting the solid 3 point shooting and defense the zen master gave them off the bench.

I dont necessarily disagree with anything your saying but its easy to discount a players contributions when you focus on the negative or overblow facts.

Insinuating that Odom is ultimately a bench player does a disservice to the load he carries, that the Lakers ended up being deep enough that they were able to bring him off the bench was a tremendous luxury. Ask Miami Heat fans if he was just a bench player when he helped lead a young squad into the 2nd round. He played great whether he was starting or not, even this past year, yes he won 6th Man of the Year, but as is the case with most 6th Men, and all players in general, they play better when they start.
Odom shot 57% when he started and 49% off the bench, along with an increase across his averages. I dont get the point of calling him a bench player if he plays better as a starter and produces at a near All-Star rate regardless.

Also your discounting the effect Phil Jackson had, in putting everyone in a position to maximize their strengths. Yes even Kwame had an impact on the team. Let me put it simply, the Lakers were the worst defensive team the year prior, opposing bigmen were having their way with them, their perimeter defense was shaky because they had to compensate. Losing Caron Butler and adding Kwame wasnt without its share of benefits. It gave them a legit 1v1 Post defender.

The Lakers went from allowing opposing center to post a PER of 17.5 to 15.5 (basically league average), which doesnt sound like much but its a figure that drops to 13.5 whenever Kwame was on the floor. So yes he did actually fill a nice niche on that squad, that without him that defense reverts back to the levels of the year prior, which would have likely hurt them in the standings, and as you admit at the time had a small margin for error. Smush was better than Atkins on defense as well.

All this is only possible of Kobe is either able to carry a superhuman load or be devastatingly efficient with a greater role. Kobe had a year for the ages, but so did Dirk. It was just different, he wasnt leading a bunch of scrubs to the playoffs, but he was still getting his team to overachieve, that he had more talent than Kobe doesnt change this fact, its why the Mavs were legit contenders.

JJ_JKidd
02-22-2012, 06:44 AM
In the 2000's, which player was the best player each year?

2000 -
2001 -
2002 -
2003 -
2004 -
2005 -
2006 -
2007 -
2008 -
2009 -
2010 -
2011 -

2000 - INSERT FAVORITE PLAYER
2001 - INSERT FAVORITE PLAYER
2002 - INSERT FAVORITE PLAYER
2003 - INSERT FAVORITE PLAYER
2004 - INSERT FAVORITE PLAYER
2005 - INSERT FAVORITE PLAYER
2006 - INSERT FAVORITE PLAYER
2007 - INSERT FAVORITE PLAYER
2008 - INSERT FAVORITE PLAYER
2009 - INSERT FAVORITE PLAYER
2010 - INSERT FAVORITE PLAYER

.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
:facepalm:

Raidaz4Life
02-22-2012, 07:03 AM
Although I don't necessarily think Kobe was the best player in the league at any given year, I think the advanced stats group fails to take into account that up until a couple of years ago Kobe was an elite defender in the league... that is why I might be inclined to put him over dirk in 07 and say he has an argument for 03.

arifgokcen
02-22-2012, 07:08 AM
2000- Shaq
2001- Shaq
2002- Duncan
2003- Duncan
2004- Garnett
2005- Garnett
2006- Kobe
2007- Dirk
2008- James
2009- James
2010- James
2011-James
2012-James(its self explanatory)

Chronz
02-22-2012, 07:18 AM
For the record this is my breakdown

2000-2003 : Shaq

2004 : Duncan & KG

(Someone tell me why I should go KG)

2005 : KG - TD - Shaq
The fact that KG was out of the playoffs, Duncan was injured, is what allowed Nash to steal Shaqs MVP. Still out of the 3, KG was probably the best, Shaq wasnt able sustain his play after the injury.

2006 : TD/Dirk
(Plantar Fasciatis slowed Duncan down all year but in the playoffs it was clear he was the best in the game, Im only considering Dirk because he put together his finest season All-Around)

2007 : Duncan/Wade

(Yes WADE, I dont give a **** if he was injured) He was so clearly ahead of everyone when healthy at this stage that he gives Duncan a run for his money.)

2008 : Kobe

2009 - 2012 : Bron

(Though I could understand the argument for Dirk last year)

Chronz
02-22-2012, 07:20 AM
Although I don't necessarily think Kobe was the best player in the league at any given year, I think the advanced stats group fails to take into account that up until a couple of years ago Kobe was an elite defender in the league... that is why I might be inclined to put him over dirk in 07 and say he has an argument for 03.
For the longest time people have said Kobe can be a great defender when he wants to be, that was the case in 07 IMO. He geared himself up for premier matchups but I didnt notice anything superb about his defense that year.

AceMan
02-22-2012, 07:43 AM
Yes I know the team so I get what your hinting at, a one man team with an immortal coach and a mediocre supporting cast. I still think you underrate his support and will purposely exaggerate claims in place of correctly contextualizing it, that was the point of my post.



I dont necessarily disagree with anything your saying but its easy to discount a players contributions when you focus on the negative or overblow facts.

Insinuating that Odom is ultimately a bench player does a disservice to the load he carries, that the Lakers ended up being deep enough that they were able to bring him off the bench was a tremendous luxury. Ask Miami Heat fans if he was just a bench player when he helped lead a young squad into the 2nd round. He played great whether he was starting or not, even this past year, yes he won 6th Man of the Year, but as is the case with most 6th Men, and all players in general, they play better when they start.
Odom shot 57% when he started and 49% off the bench, along with an increase across his averages. I dont get the point of calling him a bench player if he plays better as a starter and produces at a near All-Star rate regardless.

Also your discounting the effect Phil Jackson had, in putting everyone in a position to maximize their strengths. Yes even Kwame had an impact on the team. Let me put it simply, the Lakers were the worst defensive team the year prior, opposing bigmen were having their way with them, their perimeter defense was shaky because they had to compensate. Losing Caron Butler and adding Kwame wasnt without its share of benefits. It gave them a legit 1v1 Post defender.

The Lakers went from allowing opposing center to post a PER of 17.5 to 15.5 (basically league average), which doesnt sound like much but its a figure that drops to 13.5 whenever Kwame was on the floor. So yes he did actually fill a nice niche on that squad, that without him that defense reverts back to the levels of the year prior, which would have likely hurt them in the standings, and as you admit at the time had a small margin for error. Smush was better than Atkins on defense as well.

All this is only possible of Kobe is either able to carry a superhuman load or be devastatingly efficient with a greater role. Kobe had a year for the ages, but so did Dirk. It was just different, he wasnt leading a bunch of scrubs to the playoffs, but he was still getting his team to overachieve, that he had more talent than Kobe doesnt change this fact, its why the Mavs were legit contenders.

First of all in regards to Lamar Odom, I'm not saying he's a bench player. I'm saying he's proven recently that he's best served coming off the bench. He's a top 30 or so player at his best, and he's more than capable of starting and being a solid player, but we've seen over the past few years that he's best served being a complementary player. That '05-'06 Lakers team needed him to be the sidekick. He's simply not capable of doing that. Jamal Crawford is a very good player and someone you want on your team, but if he's your #2 guy you're in a lot of trouble. That's the point I wanted to make with Odom.

I don't discount what Phil Jackson did. He's the greatest coach of all time. That being said, there's only so much a coach can do. Basketball isn't football, if it was Larry Brown would have coached an annual contender for the Knicks. At the end of the day the players on that team just weren't very good, Phil Jackson can't change that. Phil Jackson can't make a bad shot go into the hoop. He can't make role players stars. Kobe was ultimately playing with role players, regardless of what Phil Jackson does.

Kwame ultimately is a guy you would like to have on your team, but the problem with him is the same one that existed with Odom. They needed him to be a major piece when he was better off as a complementary piece. If your 3rd or 4th best player is a defensive center and you expect to go anywhere that center better be at worst someone like Marcus Camby, a legitimately elite defender. That's not Kwame. He's a solid defender, someone who definitely deserves minutes, but it's laughable to think he'd ever be a top guy on a good team. That's what the Lakers asked him to be. His offensive limitations make him a 10-15 minute role player, he was playing almost 30. That was this Lakers team in a nutshell, a team of role players.

Ultimately here's why I think Kobe was the champion of that year. If you took Kobe off of that team and replaced him with a mediocre or above average shooting guard, let's say Jason Terry, the Lakers win 15 games that year. There is absolutely no question in my mind. In fact, I'd go so far to say that you could even replace him with an all star (let's say Ray Allen) and that's the result. What Kobe did to carry that team was something nobody has matched since. I think LeBron might be capable of that, I think MJ is, otherwise I don't think any other player could have done that. It was such an amazing singular performance that the fact that it gets ignored historically astounds me. I understood (but didn't condone) giving Nash the MVP over Shaq the year before, but I was livid over Kobe not winning this MVP.

Raidaz4Life
02-22-2012, 07:55 AM
For the longest time people have said Kobe can be a great defender when he wants to be, that was the case in 07 IMO. He geared himself up for premier matchups but I didnt notice anything superb about his defense that year.

I completely agree, but at the same time doesn't having a player that is capable of doing that for premier matchups hold more value than a player that is not capable of doing that? I mean even if he doesn't choose to exert the effort on the defensive end every night does not mean he isn't a player capable of doing that. Like i said I am not necessarily saying I would put Kobe as the best player that year, but personally a huge knock on Dirk and Nash (two of my favorite players) as players to me are their lack of ability on the defensive end.

JordansBulls
02-22-2012, 09:43 AM
You dont have to lie in order to make your case. By the time Kobe retires Im sure you will be telling people they were so shorthanded that Phil Jackson himself had to log some PT.

:laugh2:

JordansBulls
02-22-2012, 09:46 AM
For the record this is my breakdown

2000-2003 : Shaq

2004 : Duncan & KG

(Someone tell me why I should go KG)

2005 : KG - TD - Shaq
The fact that KG was out of the playoffs, Duncan was injured, is what allowed Nash to steal Shaqs MVP. Still out of the 3, KG was probably the best, Shaq wasnt able sustain his play after the injury.

2006 : TD/Dirk
(Plantar Fasciatis slowed Duncan down all year but in the playoffs it was clear he was the best in the game, Im only considering Dirk because he put together his finest season All-Around)

2007 : Duncan/Wade

(Yes WADE, I dont give a **** if he was injured) He was so clearly ahead of everyone when healthy at this stage that he gives Duncan a run for his money.)

2008 : Kobe

2009 - 2012 : Bron

(Though I could understand the argument for Dirk last year)

Duncan was the best in 2003. Whenever you win league and finals mvp the same year you are the best player.

SaimuKala
02-22-2012, 10:06 AM
lol psd is a damn joke

LakersIn5
02-22-2012, 10:25 AM
Dirk: 26.6 ppg, 9.0 rpg, 2.8 apg.

Dirk shot 48% from the field, 40.6% from three. Compare that to Kobe's 45% and 34.7% from three.

kobe took 27 shots a game that year. if dirk took 27 shots a game he would have scored 40+ points a game.

Dirk had a better PER, more win shares, more WS/48, higher eFG% and TS%, and so on and so on.

Dirk was better.

nope. if dirk averaged 27 shots a game then his FG% will go down as he would have alot of trouble taking that many shots. yes he can take those many shots in 10 to 20 games in a season but to average 27 shots per game cant just be done by any player. plus dirk would be fatigued so much from taking 27 shots a game.

PhillyFaninLA
02-22-2012, 10:34 AM
nope. if dirk averaged 27 shots a game then his FG% will go down as he would have alot of trouble taking that many shots. yes he can take those many shots in 10 to 20 games in a season but to average 27 shots per game cant just be done by any player. plus dirk would be fatigued so much from taking 27 shots a game.


Why not while you making assumptions like this say what you really want.

All you that think Kobe isn't better then any whole team in NBA history is an idiot and a hater because the only way Kobe isn't the best basketball player ever, hockey player, curler, jockey, knife thrower, philospher, physicist, game developer, speaker, pope, planet, car, brand of butter, and everything else is because you are mindless biased hater. Its a fact that is the only reason you can think what you do and not agree with me and everyone else that blindly defends the best alleged rapist and mouthy player that almost got himself traded after getting Shaq traded but that does not matter because he is still stronger then god.

That is how a lot of you Kobe defenders sound.

Kobe spent the first 3rd of his career as 2nd best on his team, the last 2 thirds as the 2 - 5 best player in the league. That is impressive but on most years looking at overall game he wasn't the best player on a given year, at least not often. That does not mean he is not an elite player just not the best.

ivylleague1'
02-22-2012, 11:11 AM
1999 - 2000 Shaq The most dominating center ever !!!!!
2000-2001 Allen Iverson. #1 in scoring, #1 in steals. (Matched only by Jordan)
2001 - 2002 Allen Iverson.
2002 - 2003 Tim Duncan
2004 - 2005 Allen Iverson. #1 in scoring, #1 in steals, top 3 in assists. ( Best guard ever).
2005 - 2006 Kobe Bryant #1 in scoring. distinguished himself as one of the greatest and best scorers in the universe ever.

I have not evaluate other years.

alexander_37
02-22-2012, 12:10 PM
In the 2000's, which player was the best player each year?

2000 - Shaq
2001 - Shaq
2002 - Shaq
2003 - Tim Duncan
2004 - Kevin Garnett
2005 - Shaq
2006 - Steve Nash
2007 - Kobe
2008 - Kobe
2009 - Kobe
2010 - Kobe
2011 - Kevin Durant
2012 - (Probably Kobe honestly)

It's alright love, I let a hater hate

Homer ><

AceMan
02-22-2012, 12:48 PM
I think people sort of blindly say Shaq was better throughout the entire dynasty, but honestly I think a very good case could be made that by '02 Kobe had surpassed Shaq. Remember by then Shaq was well into his classic "I got hurt on company time so I'll heal on company time" routine where he'd jog up and down the court until February missing 15-20 games when he saw fit, slowly play himself into shape and then not start kicking *** until May. You could say this was just Shaq being Shaq, but are we sure he had a fully dominant season left in the tank at that point? Motivation has to mean something, and one thing I think we can say pretty easily is that Kobe cared more on a day to day basis than Shaq. Kobe was the one who led the team night in and night out, this was the point in his career where his body was fresh enough to lock down the other team's top scorer and score 35-40 if he had to. I sort of look at it like the Ari Gold-Terrance McQuewick relationship in the second season of entourage. Ari was running the agency day in and day out, but it was Terrance's name on the banner, Terrance running the meetings (and kicking Ari out for being late) whenever he decided he cared, and ultimately Terrance getting the credit and Ari being cast aside. People sort of cast Kobe aside from those dynasty teams as the clear #2 guy just because that's how it started, but really I think by the end he had surpassed Shaq, and that was one of the things that led to the split, and really led to a lot of Shaq's problems. Shaq could never accept that he wasn't the absolute best player on the floor at all times. I think if you swap Shaq with Tim Duncan the Lakers still win the '02 title, but if you swap Kobe with Tmac or Paul Pierce or any player like that at the time the Lakers lose to the Kings. Just my opinion

thapastime7
02-22-2012, 01:18 PM
2000 2001 all day was Allen iverson took them to the finals by himself not shaq he had kobe to get him his rings

3RDASYSTEM
02-22-2012, 03:40 PM
Take it back even further to cement SHAQ/AI individual dominance

SHAQ came in like 92-93 season...so thats 7-8yrs before 2000 where he dominated from day 1,not 3-4yrs later like KB did...so by the 2002 or 2003 season he had been dominant for a decade and still at top of domination(jus on company time), so why would not KB become just as good or better if people claim he is a top 5-10 alltime player? cuz by that time he was in his 7th season cuz he came in 1996 with EZAIL,so he should have been where he is or not? didnt he make allstar game in 98 off isaiahrider dunk or his actual bball game? but i'll just go along with the people and say he came in the league in 2000 draft and has played for 12yrs at high level matching EZAIL

thats why all this KB top 5-10 **** is comical once u break it all down and really look at alltime greats and how they came and dominated from day 1,not battling for minutes with 'good players' if hes so damn great...its like tru talent n Bballgame vs media hype greatness ..Plus he played just like a clone and everybody jumped on his nuts for playing exactly like the so called 'greatest', thats when i realized a replica copy is just as valued as the authentic...all this will/killer instinct **** is weak also because a killer instinct type guy never bails on his team or disrespects his GM/team thru media/youtube outlets,thats a 'frontrunner' mentality ...AI had that MJ killer instinct, foxhole type guy, imagine if he would have had SHAQ for his first 8yrs? a PG who would have had no trouble blending in cuz thats a PG dream to have a HOF modern day 'WILT' style of a bigman..dont believe me go ask MAGIC how he felt bout ALCINDOR..it kinda made MAGIC look like a frontrunner for not wanting to come out in draft unless LAKERS got 1st pick

knightstemplar
02-22-2012, 03:48 PM
http://www.basketball-reference.com/play-index/pcm_finder.cgi?request=1&sum=0&p1=nowitdi01&y1=2006&p2=bryanko01&y2=2006

05-06'. Dirk better.

http://www.basketball-reference.com/play-index/pcm_finder.cgi?request=1&sum=0&p1=nowitdi01&y1=2007&p2=bryanko01&y2=2007

06-07'. Dirk easily better.

lmao

3RDASYSTEM
02-22-2012, 03:49 PM
KB fanaticals keep forgetting he came off bench and battled for minutes...wat tru top 5-10 players come off the bench or battle non HOF type players for minutes at any point unless ya get old and forced out(AI ring a bell?) KB is the JETER of NBA, rings and marketplace...did LEBRON/AI/SHAQ/WILT/BIRD/MAGIC/OSCAR/KG/WADE/ROSE/DWILL/CP3/ALCINDOR/RUSSELL or whoever ya feel is so damn great/HOF/dominant ride pine or battle inferior players for minutes? didnt think so

And no he hasnt played at high level for 15-16yrs, hes basically a better scoring version of PIPPEN, they both avg 7ppg as rookies and were known for being defenders but KB had more offense game cuz of him being a SG but they came in very similar, hes been playing at high level since 2000, but EZAIL played at that level for 13 strait til they blacklisted him cuz he wouldnt slow down at all..Imagine just like EZAIL if NASH/PAUL/STOCKTON/CURRY/WESTBROOK had to score and assists for they team for over a decade as no1 scoring options,how efficient would they be? D.WILL is doing it now and ya see how difficult it is to do it for 30 games let alone 10yrs, EZAIL went from a 5'10 PG to a volume shooting SG for the sake of the team, he sacrificed his game for his squad and got a FINALS app. out of it


plus how can HAWKEYE15 or anybody say he doesnt play D when he did what he did at G'TOWN in college(2time Def player in BigEast)? steal the ball and did it for 3x steals champ in a row at highest level...and HAWKEYE cut it out cuz AI had to shoot as much as miami heat big 3 combined and last i checked 2 were allNBA 1st team and the other could make 2nd or 3rd team plus they are all 3 Allstars, who had that amount of scoring pressure as a PG in history of league?


its like when MUTOMBO/B.WALLACE/D.HOWARD leading league in rebounds/blocks and they get credit for anchoring interior Def and all but when EZAIL do it all he does is gamble? last time i checked going for a block/rebound is also a gamble right? and to top it off he didnt make not 1 NBA def team,not even 3rd team and lead league 3 strait yrs? but guys like HUGHES/PAUL lead league in steals and they make 1st team all Def? wat a joke when comparing individual dominance... I recall whoever leading the league in steals a good to great defender until EZAIL entered and alot of rules changed to lessen his unstoppable career(only missing a ring)


its funny how people forget Raptors ran they 4-5 guys at AI during that game he had 16 assists with those non finishers.. a 5'10 NBA player getting quadruple teamed...lack of talent help right or lack of coaching from a HOF or lack of respectable GM?

TMAC/DUNCAN/SHAQ/KG/AI/KIDD/NASH(5 of those 6 dominated 90-s era also)----LEBRON/WADE/MELO/HOWARD/KD/PAUL/DWILL/ROSE/KB(mid late)

central2003
02-22-2012, 03:51 PM
There are many players you can say deserve to be on this list. But 2000-2003 is a toss up between Iverson, Shaq, and I can't believe no one even mentioned C-Webb. Led the Kings two years in a row to the best NBA record (2001-02 and 2002-03) If it wan't for his injury I think he would have given the Kings a ring in 03 instead of the spurs winning it.

AIMelo=KillaDUO
02-22-2012, 04:01 PM
2000 - Shaq
2001 - Shaq
2002 - Duncan
2003 - Duncan
2004 - KG
2005 - Iverson
2006 - Kobe
2007 - Kobe
2008 - Paul
2009 - LeBron
2010 - LeBron
2011 -LeBron

LAKERMANIA
02-22-2012, 04:31 PM
2000- Shaq
2001- Shaq
2002- Shaq
2003- TD
2004- KG
2005- Nash
2006- Kobe
2007- Kobe
2008- Kobe
2009- LBJ
2010- LBJ
2011- LBJ
2012- LBJ-Durant

CudiOnMyiPod
02-22-2012, 04:51 PM
I love being on PSD but man some of you guys have no lives. Do you ever get off of here? Do you realize that your opinion on the internet really means nothing? hahahaha

LMAO you are the one with over 4,000 posts and 7 freaking blog entries...

Chronz
02-22-2012, 08:30 PM
Duncan was the best in 2003. Whenever you win league and finals mvp the same year you are the best player.
Most would agree in this case, Id still take Shaq. The dropoff defensively makes it hard to argue against Duncan but Shaq was still posting huge #'s and commanding doubles.

Chronz
02-22-2012, 08:33 PM
I completely agree, but at the same time doesn't having a player that is capable of doing that for premier matchups hold more value than a player that is not capable of doing that? I mean even if he doesn't choose to exert the effort on the defensive end every night does not mean he isn't a player capable of doing that. Like i said I am not necessarily saying I would put Kobe as the best player that year, but personally a huge knock on Dirk and Nash (two of my favorite players) as players to me are their lack of ability on the defensive end.
Are you trying to say both Dirk and Nash had an equal defensive impact? Dirk has been underrated defensively for so long, hes not a great defender but hes not this matador your portraying him to be.

Chronz
02-22-2012, 08:47 PM
First of all in regards to Lamar Odom, I'm not saying he's a bench player. I'm saying he's proven recently that he's best served coming off the bench. He's a top 30 or so player at his best, and he's more than capable of starting and being a solid player, but we've seen over the past few years that he's best served being a complementary player.
Proven based on what? He plays better when he starts, how has he proven hes better served coming off the bench?


That '05-'06 Lakers team needed him to be the sidekick. He's simply not capable of doing that. Jamal Crawford is a very good player and someone you want on your team, but if he's your #2 guy you're in a lot of trouble. That's the point I wanted to make with Odom.

Like I said earlier, I dont necessarily disagree with your assessment overall, aside from a few tidbits. Like the bit about him being a bench player, when in reality the Lakers were so stacked they could afford to bring him off the bench, and he was in fact at his best as a starter.


I don't discount what Phil Jackson did. He's the greatest coach of all time. That being said, there's only so much a coach can do. Basketball isn't football, if it was Larry Brown would have coached an annual contender for the Knicks. At the end of the day the players on that team just weren't very good, Phil Jackson can't change that. Phil Jackson can't make a bad shot go into the hoop. He can't make role players stars. Kobe was ultimately playing with role players, regardless of what Phil Jackson does.

It sounds like your discounting what he did if your basis for comparison is football. Nobody was expecting him to contend with the team, but the fact remains, as far as coaches making an impact, Kobe had one of the few with a legit impact. Your football analogy is irrelevant because the fact remains its still an asset that helped the team. Which is all I was saying.


Kwame ultimately is a guy you would like to have on your team, but the problem with him is the same one that existed with Odom. They needed him to be a major piece when he was better off as a complementary piece.
Im starting to sense a theme here, Im not saying the Lakers were suppose to be contending so saying they "needed" him to be more doesnt change anything Ive said.


If your 3rd or 4th best player is a defensive center and you expect to go anywhere that center better be at worst someone like Marcus Camby, a legitimately elite defender.

Again with your exaggerations, show me a single 4th Big in any rotation thats as good as Camby. Cmon man, you dont gotta lie to get your point across.


That's not Kwame. He's a solid defender, someone who definitely deserves minutes, but it's laughable to think he'd ever be a top guy on a good team.
I have a question, what makes you think Im saying he would be a top guy on a good team? I dont even know what your arbitrary cutoff for "top guy" would be so this is a really confusing statement.


That's what the Lakers asked him to be. His offensive limitations make him a 10-15 minute role player, he was playing almost 30. That was this Lakers team in a nutshell, a team of role players.
In a nutshell yes, but if you dig deeper you can see the advantages to those players.


Ultimately here's why I think Kobe was the champion of that year. If you took Kobe off of that team and replaced him with a mediocre or above average shooting guard, let's say Jason Terry, the Lakers win 15 games that year.
Your speaking of replacement value, Im sure the Lakers would suck but forgive me if I dont believe in your "nutshell" analysis. There have been far more intricate attempts to measure replacement value, and I dont know if any of them had Kobe #1. We may as well to disagree unless you can offer some sort of evidence.



There is absolutely no question in my mind. In fact, I'd go so far to say that you could even replace him with an all star (let's say Ray Allen) and that's the result.
These are the kind of statements that ruin your credibility. Youve essentially said there is zero difference in the win column if you go from Jason Terry to Ray Allen. I really dont care about your unsubstantiated theory bro.


What Kobe did to carry that team was something nobody has matched since.
It was surpassed several times over. Your making the mistake of assuming chucking is the only was to carry your team.


I think LeBron might be capable of that, I think MJ is, otherwise I don't think any other player could have done that. It was such an amazing singular performance that the fact that it gets ignored historically astounds me. I understood (but didn't condone) giving Nash the MVP over Shaq the year before, but I was livid over Kobe not winning this MVP.
I have no doubt

I was upset Dirk didnt win it, Kobe had a great year, but it wasnt any better than Dirks or Brons that year.

Chronz
02-22-2012, 08:48 PM
nope. if dirk averaged 27 shots a game then his FG% will go down as he would have alot of trouble taking that many shots. yes he can take those many shots in 10 to 20 games in a season but to average 27 shots per game cant just be done by any player. plus dirk would be fatigued so much from taking 27 shots a game.
Can Kobe do what Dirk did?

Chronz
02-22-2012, 08:54 PM
I think people sort of blindly say Shaq was better throughout the entire dynasty, but honestly I think a very good case could be made that by '02 Kobe had surpassed Shaq.
Check the record with Kobe and without Shaq. Then vice versa.


Remember by then Shaq was well into his classic "I got hurt on company time so I'll heal on company time" routine where he'd jog up and down the court until February missing 15-20 games when he saw fit, slowly play himself into shape and then not start kicking *** until May. You could say this was just Shaq being Shaq, but are we sure he had a fully dominant season left in the tank at that point? Motivation has to mean something, and one thing I think we can say pretty easily is that Kobe cared more on a day to day basis than Shaq.
No doubt, if you defined best in the game as best regular season performer, Kobe has Shaq beat. Shaq was at the point in his career where he monitored his body in an effort to gear up for the playoffs. You can fault him for it, but there is no doubt he was the better player when it came time for a playoff run. He warped the floor like no one in his era ever could, that he combined it with a supreme passing acument is what made the Lakers contenders. Its why they could compete without Kobe but struggled without Shaq. He was the heart of the team, Kobe was the brain. You need both to win obviously.


Kobe was the one who led the team night in and night out, this was the point in his career where his body was fresh enough to lock down the other team's top scorer and score 35-40 if he had to. I sort of look at it like the Ari Gold-Terrance McQuewick relationship in the second season of entourage. Ari was running the agency day in and day out, but it was Terrance's name on the banner, Terrance running the meetings (and kicking Ari out for being late) whenever he decided he cared, and ultimately Terrance getting the credit and Ari being cast aside. People sort of cast Kobe aside from those dynasty teams as the clear #2 guy just because that's how it started, but really I think by the end he had surpassed Shaq, and that was one of the things that led to the split, and really led to a lot of Shaq's problems. Shaq could never accept that he wasn't the absolute best player on the floor at all times. I think if you swap Shaq with Tim Duncan the Lakers still win the '02 title, but if you swap Kobe with Tmac or Paul Pierce or any player like that at the time the Lakers lose to the Kings. Just my opinion
Shaq was better than Kobe throughout, it wasnt until Shaqs 2nd year in Miami that Kobe was a superior player. The record book and stats back this.
Also, Tmac was superior to Kobe in just about every facet early in the 2K era, he wouldnt have needed 7 games to get by the Kings IMO.

Chronz
02-22-2012, 08:54 PM
lmao
:clap:

LakerKB24Fan
02-22-2012, 10:03 PM
2000 - Shaq
2001 - Shaq
2002 - Duncan
2003 - Duncan
2004 - Garnett
2005 - Dirk
2006 - Kobe
2007 - Kobe
2008 - CP3
2009 - LeBron
2010 - LeBron
2011 - LeBron

dee85
02-23-2012, 12:45 AM
2000-Shaq
2001-Shaq
2002-Shaq
2003-Duncan
2004-Garnett
2005-Garnett
2006-Dirk
2007-Duncan
2008-Paul
2009-Lebron
2010-Lebron
2011-Lebron

NBAfan4life
02-23-2012, 10:13 PM
It definitely wouldve but its not like Kobe has ever shown the ability to display Dirk levels of efficiency so whats the point?


Not sure what your trying to get at here.


What happened in 07 that made Kobe so different?

Honestly I think I would give it to him in 07 too after looking again at the numbers. Just my opinion though I know a lot of people disagree. There advanced stats are not that far off.