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View Full Version : Highest LeBron Can Be Ranked When It Is All Said & Done?



C-Style
02-20-2012, 06:05 PM
If he gets 2 tittles(Finals MVP) I don't think he get's passed Shaq, Kobe, Duncan & Hakeem. If he wins 3, he's definetly in the conversation. IMO anything more than that is nearly impossible, IMO he has a 5 year window to win that many with this team.(Let's be honest great things always come to an end), with the emergence of Durant & Thunder, Rose & Bulls, Clippers, & Kobe looking to win more before he retires I see it VERY difficult. & I doubt he wins all his F-MVP's playing along side Wade and to an extend Bosh who has a good outside shot. 2 Finals MVP's & 3 championships sounds right. @ best I have him at 5-7 at worst 7-12, Thought?

AntiG
02-20-2012, 06:07 PM
he's the most talented player in NBA history, so the sky is the limit... however, whether he achieves all of the goals is a whole other issue.

JordansBulls
02-20-2012, 06:08 PM
Top 3-5

Bullsfan22
02-20-2012, 06:09 PM
Top 3-5

Agreed.

Sota4Ever
02-20-2012, 06:13 PM
Probably the most athletic player to ever play the game, but doesn't have the kobe/mj attitude. I would say in the 6-10 range.

KB-Pau-DH2012
02-20-2012, 06:13 PM
8th at the most. You have to look at the entire body of work.

How much they've done for the league, contributions to the game of basketball, biggest memorable moments, clutchness, championships, awards, stats, talent, fundamentals, offense, defense, and overall dominance, mental toughness, approach to the game, the will to improve as the years went on, the intangibles and know it hows etc.

I don't see LeBron surpassing what I like to call as the "automatics". They are Michael, Magic, Larry, Kareem, Wilt, Russell and Shaq. The highest I can see him is #8. He'll have to surpass Kobe, Duncan and Hakeem to do that.

xxplayerxx23
02-20-2012, 06:14 PM
If he were to win 4, With2 finals MVPs, And another Regular season mvp(Maybe this year) and keeps up the scoring pace and rebounds and assists then he is in the conversation for GOAT

JordansBulls
02-20-2012, 06:17 PM
If he were to win 4, With2 finals MVPs, And another Regular season mvp(Maybe this year) and keeps up the scoring pace and rebounds and assists then he is in the conversation for GOAT

Not when you lose 3 years in a row as the favorite and homecourt advantage.

xxplayerxx23
02-20-2012, 06:22 PM
Not when you lose 3 years in a row as the favorite and homecourt advantage.

Last year? The clevland days he had trash around him. If he wins 4 with everything I said he will be in the conversation

KB-Pau-DH2012
02-20-2012, 06:23 PM
Last year? The clevland days he had trash around him. If he wins 4 with everything I said he will be in the conversation

So you're telling me that 66-16 in 08-09 and 61-21 in 09-10, LeBron did it all by himself? :confused:

Sinestro
02-20-2012, 06:23 PM
Honestly he can go anywhere from 3-10

xxplayerxx23
02-20-2012, 06:25 PM
So you're telling me that 66-16 in 08-09 and 61-21 in 09-10, LeBron did it all by himself? :confused:

Your telling me that team without Lebron wins more then 12 games? the second best player was mo williams, he had nobody, Lebron put on any team is automatically in the playoffs and has a shot to win it all

idrinkpepsi
02-20-2012, 06:25 PM
Lebron still has time after he is done with the Heat (or if he plays the rest of his career for them, who knows what happens) to win championships. It'll be interesting to see what happens and how he ends up at the end.

JordansBulls
02-20-2012, 06:25 PM
Last year? The clevland days he had trash around him. If he wins 4 with everything I said he will be in the conversation

He lost to the teams he should have beaten. Rafer and Lee was his starting backcourt. When they went to New Jersey that team won 12 games. Rashard Lewis was his PF and now on the Wizards with a franchise player in Wall that team has won like 13 games now. And then Hedo was on the Raptors and Suns and had absolutely no impact.
When you put it together Dwight's lineup was Rafer, Lee, Hedo, Lewis

And the Celtics in 2010 didn't even have 1 all Nba player on either the 1st, 2nd or 3rd team.

SteveNash
02-20-2012, 06:26 PM
So you're telling me that 66-16 in 08-09 and 61-21 in 09-10, LeBron did it all by himself? :confused:

Pretty much.

And LeBron can easily be considered #1.

NYY 26 to 7
02-20-2012, 06:26 PM
Anywhere. I hate lebron but if certain things happened who knows he could be the best. The talent is there. Personally I would discount it because he plays with wade but if wade was hurt and he lead them and averaged a triple double or something crazy you can't say way way way too early. His talent has no limit.

JordansBulls
02-20-2012, 06:26 PM
Your telling me that team without Lebron wins more then 12 games? the second best player was mo williams, he had nobody, Lebron put on any team is automatically in the playoffs and has a shot to win it all

Then how the hell did the Heat only win 58 games last year with 3 stars on it?

And the 2nd best player on the 2007 Mavs was Josh Howard and Dirk won 67 games.

utl768
02-20-2012, 06:26 PM
2

no one will ever top MJ

Ill21
02-20-2012, 06:30 PM
It all depends on the rings at this point.

0 rings 10-15
1 ring 7-10
2-5 rings 7-2
6+ rings- greatest of all time.

Also if he wins any finals MVP's that will help him a lot.

pedrofan45
02-20-2012, 06:32 PM
So you're telling me that 66-16 in 08-09 and 61-21 in 09-10, LeBron did it all by himself? :confused:

Considering the fact that the Cavs went 19-63 when he left.... I'd say pretty much

xxplayerxx23
02-20-2012, 06:32 PM
He lost to the teams he should have beaten. Rafer and Lee was his starting backcourt. When they went to New Jersey that team won 12 games. Rashard Lewis was his PF and now on the Wizards with a franchise player in Wall that team has won like 13 games now. And then Hedo was on the Raptors and Suns and had absolutely no impact.
When you put it together Dwight's lineup was Rafer, Lee, Hedo, Lewis

And the Celtics in 2010 didn't even have 1 all Nba player on either the 1st, 2nd or 3rd team.

Come on now, that makes no sense, He had nobody that could hit a shot in cleveland in the playoffs, Hedo wasnt bad at that time, Dwight played a high level how can he stop dwight? He couldnt win it byhimself, Look at kobe when he had no talent,Look at how much talent Jordan had, Your ganan tell me jordan or kobe on that clevland team could of done anything? the celtics had a great team, Pierce a great defender great overall player, Garnett even on the downside a good defender and good player, Allen rondo, Young bench pieces, Lebron had nobody on his team, and Won games by himself. In the playoffs how many open shots did he get his teamates, and how many open shots were missed. Where are his teamates from cleveland how are they doing?. Mo williams was the 2nd option thats all you have to know

JordansBulls
02-20-2012, 06:34 PM
Considering the fact that the Cavs went 19-63 when he left.... I'd say pretty much

Cavs lost Lebron, Shaq, Delonte, Big Z, Jamario Moon and their coach in Mike Brown as well as Varajeo for the year. If it was just Lebron and the rest of the cast stayed intact with no additions or substractions you would have a valid point.

xxplayerxx23
02-20-2012, 06:34 PM
Then how the hell did the Heat only win 58 games last year with 3 stars on it?

And the 2nd best player on the 2007 Mavs was Josh Howard and Dirk won 67 games.

its a new, team, Chemstry has to be built.He had 3 stars but no bench, no key role players, wade and him had to get used to each other, they play the same game. Come on I respect you as a poster, but the things your saying make no sense right now

pedrofan45
02-20-2012, 06:34 PM
Then how the hell did the Heat only win 58 games last year with 3 stars on it?

And the 2nd best player on the 2007 Mavs was Josh Howard and Dirk won 67 games.

It was their first year all playing together it's all about team chemistry and that Mav team had great team chemistry. Lebron wasn't used to playing with another star at all let alone two.

JordansBulls
02-20-2012, 06:36 PM
its a new, team, Chemstry has to be built.He had 3 stars but no bench, no key role players, wade and him had to get used to each other, they play the same game. Come on I respect you as a poster, but the things your saying make no sense right now

huh??? If it was about chemistry then you understand how the Cavs won that many games. And the Heat picked up a bunch of games as the season went on. They got Bibby, Big Z and Haslem all added to the team.

pedrofan45
02-20-2012, 06:36 PM
Cavs lost Lebron, Shaq, Delonte, Big Z, Jamario Moon and their coach in Mike Brown as well as Varajeo for the year. If it was just Lebron and the rest of the cast stayed intact with no additions or substractions you would have a valid point.

Shaq?? Delonte?? I'll give you big Z but before Shaq even got there the Cavs were even better the year before and years prior. Lebron made those teams, stop being such a hater

NoahH
02-20-2012, 06:38 PM
Greatest of all time.

xxplayerxx23
02-20-2012, 06:39 PM
huh??? If it was about chemistry then you understand how the Cavs won that many games. And the Heat picked up a bunch of games as the season went on. They got Bibby, Big Z and Haslem all added to the team.

LebroN James went from having himself as the only option with mo helping out to Having wade who plays the same game as him and bosh. Bibby had no effect Haslem is just a role player and Big Z played with Lebron his whole career and was nothing really. it took time for them to get it going and now look at what they did, yes they fell short of winning it all but are again the favorites to win it all. Lebron is a huge reason for that

naps
02-20-2012, 06:39 PM
#2.

I just can't imagine any human being balling better than Jordan. It will be impossible for me to put anyone above Jordan. But LeBron will make it an interesting debate for a lot of people if he wins handful number of rings. Top 3 sounds about right and safe to me.

JordansBulls
02-20-2012, 06:40 PM
Shaq?? Delonte?? I'll give you big Z but the Cavs were even better the year before and years prior. Lebron made those teams, stop being such a hater

What?? You said he did it by himself as if he was the only one that left the team for there record the following year and so I mentioned the other guys they lost as well. Not to mention they were clearly tanking to get a high pick.
Some things are evident just like when the Bobcats traded away Gerald Wallace that they were just going for a top pick this year which is why they are horrendous.

No need to be sitting around being a 8th or 9th seed with no young players on your team nor someone who will be a star. Cavs simply were tanking that season.

Sota4Ever
02-20-2012, 06:40 PM
Bandwagon heat fan says he will be the GOAT. Now this thread is complete.

SteveNash
02-20-2012, 06:40 PM
It all depends on the rings at this point.

0 rings 10-15
1 ring 7-10
2-5 rings 7-2
6+ rings- greatest of all time.

Also if he wins any finals MVP's that will help him a lot.

Why is 6 some magical number? If Jordan is goat because he won a little more than half of Russell's rings, LeBron shouldn't have to win 6.


Cavs lost Lebron, Shaq, Delonte, Big Z, Jamario Moon and their coach in Mike Brown as well as Varajeo for the year. If it was just Lebron and the rest of the cast stayed intact with no additions or substractions you would have a valid point.

Still, when Jordan left Pippen won only 2 fewer games.

So obviously way more help. And when Jordan came back they didn't make it as far in the playoffs mainly due to Jordan's choke.

And then they had to add HoF Rodman.

NoahH
02-20-2012, 06:41 PM
What?? You said he did it by himself as if he was the only one that left the team for there record the following year and so I mentioned the other guys they lost as well. Not to mention they were clearly tanking to get a high pick.
Some things are evident just like when the Bobcats traded away Gerald Wallace that they were just going for a top pick this year which is why they are horrendous.

No need to be sitting around being a 8th or 9th seed with no young players on your team nor someone who will be a star. Cavs simply were tanking that season.

No, i think the Cavaliers really were that bad last year.

Bruno
02-20-2012, 06:42 PM
well, if he racks seven finals MVPs in a row, and continues to flirt with PERs over 28.0, and WS/48 above .233, he'd be the GOAT, wouldn't he?

way too difficult to say. i think he needs two titles to crack top ten. with finals mvps.

JordansBulls
02-20-2012, 06:42 PM
LebroN James went from having himself as the only option with mo helping out to Having wade who plays the same game as him and bosh. Bibby had no effect Haslem is just a role player and Big Z played with Lebron his whole career and was nothing really. it took time for them to get it going and now look at what they did, yes they fell short of winning it all but are again the favorites to win it all. Lebron is a huge reason for that

Wade is a huge reason for that because he has already won it all as the man.

http://www.nba.com/bulls/news/smith_james_100709.html



Going to Miami, it isnít going to be LeBronís team. It is Wadeís team because heís been there and has won a championship there. So the obvious point was that this would not be LeBronís championship if he gets one or more, that he needed to go get help from a champion and another star.

xxplayerxx23
02-20-2012, 06:43 PM
well, if he racks seven finals MVPs in a row, and continues to flirt with PERs over 28.0, and WS/48 above .233, he'd be the GOAT, wouldn't he?

way too difficult to say. i think he needs two titles to crack top ten. with finals mvps.

IMO he can be conversation with 4 rings one more MVP regular season and 2 Finals MVP keeping what he is doing up he def could be in the convo for GOAT.

NoahH
02-20-2012, 06:44 PM
Bandwagon heat fan says he will be the GOAT. Now this thread is complete.
Not bandwagon, but yes I did say that. I repped Timmy Hardaway.

xxplayerxx23
02-20-2012, 06:46 PM
Wade is a huge reason for that because he has already won it all as the man.

http://www.nba.com/bulls/news/smith_james_100709.html

No doubt, Wade did it as the number one option but he had shaq as the 2nd option and shaq still had game left, If the season ended today Lebron would Be MVP. Lebron is option 1A while wade is option 1B at this point.

Evolution23
02-20-2012, 06:46 PM
Jordan, Magic, Bird, Kobe Shaq are all ahead of him at this point in his career. With last year's collapse in the finals and the year before no show against the Celtics, Lebron solidified his legacy. He pretty much has to take over the entire playoffs and be "the man" in the finals for the next 3 years for him to be back into the conversation alongside these greats.

JordansBulls
02-20-2012, 06:46 PM
Why is 6 some magical number? If Jordan is goat because he won a little more than half of Russell's rings, LeBron shouldn't have to win 6.



Still, when Jordan left Pippen won only 2 fewer games.

So obviously way more help. And when Jordan came back they didn't make it as far in the playoffs mainly due to Jordan's choke.

And then they had to add HoF Rodman.

Rodman was a HOF because of playing with MJ in Chicago, Rodman made no allstar teams with Chicago.

Bulls went from tied with the best record in the league in 1998 to having the worst record once MJ left in 1998 and this is relevant because MJ was the only allstar on the team in 1998 the same as Lebron was on Cleveland in 2010.

Jordan never played with a guy who won league or finals mvp like Lebron has in Wade.

xxplayerxx23
02-20-2012, 06:47 PM
how I hate to defend lebron

pedrofan45
02-20-2012, 06:47 PM
Wade is a huge reason for that because he has already won it all as the man.

http://www.nba.com/bulls/news/smith_james_100709.html

I'm sick of this Wade's team bull****. Everyone loves to forget that Lebron was straight beasting up until the finals last year. So much that even Pippen came out and said he was better then Jordan. Wade sucked up until the finals also. The Heat were looking unstoppable at this point. Then Lebron seemed to take the back seat for some reason and Wade stepped up his game, and when this happened the Heat sucked.

IMO, it's Lebron's team, he doesn't need Wade to play well, but the Heat needs Lebron to play well in order to win.

Evolution23
02-20-2012, 06:47 PM
Not bandwagon, but yes I did say that. I repped Timmy Hardaway.

were u born in Canada or you moved there from Miami?

pedrofan45
02-20-2012, 06:47 PM
how I hate to defend lebron

Haha seriously.

SmartestGuyHere
02-20-2012, 06:47 PM
1 if he wins 4-5 rings. He will have every record by the time he's done. (Not a Miami/Lebron fan)

justinnum1
02-20-2012, 06:47 PM
jordan won his first at 28, thats all im gonna say

he will be top 10 at the end of his career

NoahH
02-20-2012, 06:49 PM
were u born in Canada or you moved there from Miami?

Up in canada we don't have the luxury of cheering for a local team so what do u expect me to do. Cheer for the Raptors? HA! I've always been a Heat fan.

JordansBulls
02-20-2012, 06:50 PM
I'm sick of this Wade's team bull****. Everyone loves to forget that Lebron was straight beasting up until the finals last year. So much that even Pippen came out and said he was better then Jordan. Wade sucked up until the finals also. The Heat were looking unstoppable at this point. Then Lebron seemed to take the back seat for some reason and Wade stepped up his game, and when this happened the Heat sucked.

IMO, it's Lebron's team, he doesn't need Wade to play well, but the Heat needs Lebron to play well in order to win.

Wade sucked until the finals?

This was against Boston.

Wade

30.2 PPG / 6.8 RPG / 4.8 APG / 2.00 SPG / 0.60 BPG / 3.05 TPG / 52.6% FG / 28.6% 3 PT FG / 77.6% FT


Lebron

28.0 PPG / 8.2 RPG / 3.6 APG / 1.80 SPG / 1.80 BPG / 3.40 TPG / 47.2% FG / 43.5% 3 PT FG / 66.7% FT


Whose team is it:

http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/news/story?page=SummerForecast10-Heat-1

http://a.espncdn.com/i/nba/miami_heat/miami_heat_graphs_05.jpg


According to our 93 NBA panelists, 44 percent believe the Miami Heat are still Dwyane Wade's squad.

For Question 1: "Miami Heat -- Whose team is it?" Our 93 NBA panelists:

• LeBron James' team: 12
• Dwyane Wade's team: 41
• James/Wade/Bosh's team: 20
• Pat Riley's team: 16
• Micky Arison's team: 0
• Heat fans' team: 0
• None of the above: 4



It is Wade's team, he gave the Heat it's only title in franchise history and outperforms him in the finals by a clear margin. Wade never lost the team.

KB-Pau-DH2012
02-20-2012, 06:51 PM
well, if he racks seven finals MVPs in a row, and continues to flirt with PERs over 28.0, and WS/48 above .233, he'd be the GOAT, wouldn't he?

way too difficult to say. i think he needs two titles to crack top ten. with finals mvps.

Winning 2 titles will be hard for him to surpass guys like Kobe (8th), Duncan (9th), and Hakeem (10th) because those guys won multiple titles with the franchise they started their careers with. Not winning a championship in Cleveland hurts LeBron in some ways.

Look at the top 10:

1. Michael - won titles with the Bulls, then whatever with the Wizards
2. Magic - won titles with the Lakers
3. Kareem (Alcindor) - won title with the Bucks, and then later on multiple time with the Lakers (Sort of fits that LeBron role with playing for a small market team to start his career. Only difference, Kareem led that small market team to a title, LeBron didn't)
4. Wilt - won with 76ers before winning with the Lakers. (Started with Philadelphia Warriors, which became San Fran Warriors, then was traded to Philly 76ers who were formerly known as Syracuse Nationals.)
5. Russell- Need I say more?
6. Bird - Celtics
7. Shaq - Yes, couldn't win a title with Orlando, but then went to LA and was the unquestioned leader for 3 titles. That franchise had not won a title in 12 yrs. (Shaq fits the LeBron role, but Shaq didn't go to LA to play with superstars/friends to win titles, and Wade already won a title with the franchise 4 yrs before LeBron got there).
8. Kobe - Lakers
9. Duncan-Spurs
10. Hakeem-Won 2 titles with the Rockets before retiring as a Raptor.


Winning 2 titles will get LeBron definitely top 15. But no, not top 10.

theheatles
02-20-2012, 06:51 PM
# ****ing 1

NoahH
02-20-2012, 06:51 PM
Greatest of all time.

In all seriousness though, no, I don't think he's gonna be #1. I'd say 5ish maybe.

There's too many other good players that he could not dethrone.

MJ
Kareem
Magic
Russell
Bird

xxplayerxx23
02-20-2012, 06:52 PM
Winning 2 titles will be hard for him to surpass guys like Kobe (8th), Duncan (9th), and Hakeem (10th) because those guys won multiple titles with the franchise they started their careers with. Not winning a championship in Cleveland hurts LeBron in some ways.

Look at the top 10:

1. Michael - won titles with the Bulls, then whatever with the Wizards
2. Magic - won titles with the Lakers
3. Kareem (Alcindor) - won title with the Bucks, and then later on multiple time with the Lakers (Sort of fits that LeBron role with playing for a small market team to start his career. Only difference, Kareem led that small market team to a title, LeBron didn't)
4. Wilt - won with 76ers before winning with the Lakers. (Started with Philadelphia Warriors, which became San Fran Warriors, then was traded to Philly 76ers who were formerly known as Syracuse Nationals.)
5. Russell- Need I say more?
6. Bird - Celtics
7. Shaq - Yes, couldn't win a title with Orlando, but then went to LA and was the unquestioned leader for 3 titles. That franchise had not won a title in 12 yrs. (Shaq fits the LeBron role, but Shaq didn't go to LA to play with superstars/friends to win titles, and Wade already won a title with the franchise 4 yrs before LeBron got there).
8. Kobe - Lakers
9. Duncan-Spurs
10. Hakeem-Won 2 titles with the Rockets before retiring as a Raptor.


Winning 2 titles will get LeBron definitely top 15. But no, not top 10.

IMO kobe is top 5.

pedrofan45
02-20-2012, 06:54 PM
Wade sucked until the finals?

This was against Boston.

Wade

30.2 PPG / 6.8 RPG / 4.8 APG / 2.00 SPG / 0.60 BPG / 3.05 TPG / 52.6% FG / 28.6% 3 PT FG / 77.6% FT


Lebron

28.0 PPG / 8.2 RPG / 3.6 APG / 1.80 SPG / 1.80 BPG / 3.40 TPG / 47.2% FG / 43.5% 3 PT FG / 66.7% FT


Whose team is it:

http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/news/story?page=SummerForecast10-Heat-1

http://a.espncdn.com/i/nba/miami_heat/miami_heat_graphs_05.jpg




It is Wade's team, he gave the Heat it's only title in franchise history and outperforms him in the finals by a clear margin. Wade never lost the team.

Boston blew last year. I'll be the first to admit watching those games we got absolutely smoked. If you watched those games you would have seen how the Heat easily crushed us. Give me the stats of the Bulls series and I'll admit it's Wade's team because if I remember clearly they were the best looking team in the NBA and Lebron owned em.

JordansBulls
02-20-2012, 06:54 PM
In all seriousness though, no, I don't think he's gonna be #1. I'd say 5ish maybe.

There's too many other good players that he could not dethrone.

MJ
Kareem
Magic
Russell
Bird

I think he will pass Bird and go down as the greatest SF. To me that is his biggest obstacle.

JordansBulls
02-20-2012, 06:55 PM
Boston blew last year. I'll be the first to admit watching those games we got absolutely smoked. If you watched those games you would have seen how the Heat easily crushed us. Give me the stats of the Bulls series and I'll admit it's Wade's team because if I remember clearly they were the best looking team in the NBA and Lebron owned em.
How the hell did Boston blow last year winning 56 games?


Wade
18.8 PPG / 6.4 RPG / 2.2 APG / 1.60 SPG / 1.20 BPG / 4.00 TPG / 40.5% FG / 20.0% 3 PT FG / 82.9% FT

Lebron
25.8 PPG / 7.8 RPG / 6.6 APG / 2.40 SPG / 1.8 BPG / 3.6 TPG / 44.7% FG / 38.9% 3 PT FG / 86.4% FT

Bosh
23.2 PPG / 7.6 RPG / 1.2 APG / 0.60 SPG / 1.0 BPG / 2.0 TPG / 60.0% FG / 0.00% 3 PT FG / 91.4% FT


I wouldn't say Lebron owned the Bulls. I'd say Bosh owned the Bulls entire frontcourt. 23 ppg and 8 rpg on 60% FG.

Bruno
02-20-2012, 06:56 PM
IMO he can be conversation with 4 rings one more MVP regular season and 2 Finals MVP keeping what he is doing up he def could be in the convo for GOAT.

the conversation for #1 all time? with four rings three mvps and two finals mvp? that's not gona cut it. Jordan and several others would still surpass that resume. in the case of Jordan, by a long shot.

KB-Pau-DH2012
02-20-2012, 06:56 PM
I'm sick of this Wade's team bull****. Everyone loves to forget that Lebron was straight beasting up until the finals last year. So much that even Pippen came out and said he was better then Jordan. Wade sucked up until the finals also. The Heat were looking unstoppable at this point. Then Lebron seemed to take the back seat for some reason and Wade stepped up his game, and when this happened the Heat sucked.

IMO, it's Lebron's team, he doesn't need Wade to play well, but the Heat needs Lebron to play well in order to win.

In the 3-peat Laker years, Kobe was the one dominating the first 3 rounds, but when it got to the finals, Shaq was the dominant one, which is why he got the finals MVPS and he always gets the notoriety as THE MAN on those Laker teams. That's why people use that argument against Kobe that he had Shaq. (But Kobe would have his moments in 2009 and 2010 Laker titles).

Last yr's playoffs, LeBron dominated the EC playoffs, but it was Wade who outshined him in the finals, and if the Heat won the finals last yr, Wade would have been the Finals MVP. Basically, Lebron = young superstar Kobe 2nd option while Wade = Finals MVP Shaq. Kobe was the Robin to Shaq's Batman, LeBron is the RObin to Wade's Batman.

Bruno
02-20-2012, 06:57 PM
How the hell did Boston blow last year winning 56 games?


Wade
18.8 PPG / 6.4 RPG / 2.2 APG / 1.60 SPG / 1.20 BPG / 4.00 TPG / 40.5% FG / 20.0% 3 PT FG / 82.9% FT

Lebron
25.8 PPG / 7.8 RPG / 6.6 APG / 2.40 SPG / 1.8 BPG / 3.6 TPG / 44.7% FG / 38.9% 3 PT FG / 86.4% FT

Bosh
23.2 PPG / 7.6 RPG / 1.2 APG / 0.60 SPG / 1.0 BPG / 2.0 TPG / 60.0% FG / 0.00% 3 PT FG / 91.4% FT


I wouldn't say Lebron owned the Bulls. I'd say Bosh owned the Bulls entire frontcourt. 23 ppg and 8 rpg on 60% FG.
thank you. i get sick of hearing about how Lebron single handedly dismantled the Bulls in last years playoffs. Bosh was a beast.

KB-Pau-DH2012
02-20-2012, 06:58 PM
IMO kobe is top 5.

With 1 more championship and finals mvp, I'm putting Kobe ahead of Bird and Shaq. He will have more Finals MVPs than Larry and will have as many Lakers Finals MVPS as Shaq (3). Shaq still has the edge over Kobe because Shaq as the Lakers CEO got 3 titles, Kobe as the Lakers CEO has 2 titles. He needs to get 1 more.

xxplayerxx23
02-20-2012, 06:59 PM
the conversation for #1 all time? with four rings three mvps and two finals mvp? that's not gona cut it. Jordan and several others would still surpass that resume. in the case of Jordan, by a long shot.

Im not saying he would be number 1, Im saying talked about as in there league, 4 rings, with him keeping up his pace in scoring assists Rebounds steals, He would have to be talked about as one of the best ever to play the game

pedrofan45
02-20-2012, 06:59 PM
In the 3-peat Laker years, Kobe was the one dominating the first 3 rounds, but when it got to the finals, Shaq was the dominant one, which is why he got the finals MVPS and he always gets the notoriety as THE MAN on those Laker teams. That's why people use that argument against Kobe that he had Shaq. (But Kobe would have his moments in 2009 and 2010 Laker titles).

Last yr's playoffs, LeBron dominated the EC playoffs, but it was Wade who outshined him in the finals, and if the Heat won the finals last yr, Wade would have been the Finals MVP. Basically, Lebron = young superstar Kobe 2nd option while Wade = Finals MVP Shaq. Kobe was the Robin to Shaq's Batman, LeBron is the RObin to Wade's Batman.

But see the Heat didn't win when Wade played well. And if they do win it's probably going to be because Lebron played well.

The dude is the best player in the NBA hands down, I don't care who's the captain or whatever, the Heat rise and fall because of Lebron James. It almost gets annoying of how blind you all are I'm a ****ing die HARD Celtics fan.

xxplayerxx23
02-20-2012, 07:00 PM
[QUOTE=KB-Pau-DH2012;21034829]With 1 more championship and finals mvp, I'm putting Kobe ahead of Bird and Shaq. He will have more Finals MVPs than Larry and will have as many Lakers Finals MVPS as Shaq (3). Shaq still has the edge over Kobe because Shaq as the Lakers CEO got 3 titles, Kobe as the Lakers CEO has 2 titles. He needs to get 1 more.[/QUOTEVE

I think kobe is going to pass shaq without another ring. He has a shot to, because you figure he has at least 2 to 4 years left, He is going to pass more people on the scoring list, I think his 5 rings, Will get him top 5

SteveNash
02-20-2012, 07:02 PM
Rodman was a HOF because of playing with MJ in Chicago, Rodman made no allstar teams with Chicago.

Bulls went from tied with the best record in the league in 1998 to having the worst record once MJ left in 1998 and this is relevant because MJ was the only allstar on the team in 1998 the same as Lebron was on Cleveland in 2010.

Jordan never played with a guy who won league or finals mvp like Lebron has in Wade.

Rodman played 3 years with Jordan, pretty big leap to say he's in the HoF because of Jordan.

Rodman lead the league in rebounding those 3 years and you know allstars are selected on flash, not defense.

Bulls lost HoF Jordan, HoF Pippen, HoF Rodman, HoF Jackson, HoF Winter, Future HoF Kukoc.

And they still had a winning percentage of 26%, while the Cavs won 21% of their games.

And Pippen was flat out better then Wade.

lvlheaded
02-20-2012, 07:03 PM
If he some how wins 5 while beig THE guy, with 3 FMVPs and at least one more regular season MVP, you gotta put him in the conversation with the top 3 of all time. He is without question the most physically gifted and talented player ever IMO

pedrofan45
02-20-2012, 07:03 PM
thank you. i get sick of hearing about how Lebron single handedly dismantled the Bulls in last years playoffs. Bosh was a beast.

And I don't remember anyone being able to cover Rose up until the ECF and Lebron made him his *****.

KB-Pau-DH2012
02-20-2012, 07:03 PM
But see the Heat didn't win when Wade played well. And if they do win it's probably going to be because Lebron played well.

LeBron was piss poor in the 2011 NBA Finals, no where near option #2 young Kobe Bryant in the 2000, 2001 and 2002 Finals.

2000 Finals: Kobe was the best perimeter defender for the Lakers and won that legendary game 4 in OT @ Indy when Shaq fouled out.

2001 Finals: Kobe was a legitimate #2 scoring option while still trying to defend AI.


2002 Finals: Kobe sealed the deal Game 3 @ NJ to give Lakers 3-0 lead.


Kobe had big clutch moments and was the best perimeter defender all those 3 yrs while Shaq carried the scoring load. LeBron didn't show up offensively or defensively or clutch-wise while Wade was carrying the scoring load.

gotoHcarolina52
02-20-2012, 07:05 PM
He has a shot to be top 5.

(1) Lin
(2) Kobe
(3) Jordan
(4) Magic
(5) LeBron

xxplayerxx23
02-20-2012, 07:05 PM
If he some how wins 5 while beig THE guy, with 3 FMVPs and at least one more regular season MVP, you gotta put him in the conversation with the top 3 of all time. He is without question the most physically gifted and talented player ever IMO

I say 4 would put him there, But I dont know if he is considered the guy right now he is the co guy but the better player then wade overall

xxplayerxx23
02-20-2012, 07:06 PM
He has a shot to be top 5.

(1) Lin
(2) Kobe
(3) Jordan
(4) Magic
(5) LeBron

your an ******* it goes like this
1.Lin
2.Jordan
3.Kobe
4.Magic
5.Bron
Come on man ;)

godolphins
02-20-2012, 07:08 PM
Cavs lost Lebron, Shaq, Delonte, Big Z, Jamario Moon and their coach in Mike Brown as well as Varajeo for the year. If it was just Lebron and the rest of the cast stayed intact with no additions or substractions you would have a valid point.

The Cavs did not lose Jamario Moon and Delonte West, they traded them away. What was Shaq going to do for the Cavs? He barely played last year. With Big Z the Cavs still would of been horrible last year.



your an ******* it goes like this
1.Lin
2.Jordan
3.Kobe
4.Magic
5.Bron
Come on man ;)
I can't take you're list seriously. No Iman Shumpert? :facepalm:

pedrofan45
02-20-2012, 07:10 PM
LeBron was piss poor in the 2011 NBA Finals, no where near option #2 young Kobe Bryant in the 2000, 2001 and 2002 Finals.

2000 Finals: Kobe was the best perimeter defender for the Lakers and won that legendary game 4 in OT @ Indy when Shaq fouled out.

2001 Finals: Kobe was a legitimate #2 scoring option while still trying to defend AI.


2002 Finals: Kobe sealed the deal Game 3 @ NJ to give Lakers 3-0 lead.


Kobe had big clutch moments and was the best perimeter defender all those 3 yrs while Shaq carried the scoring load. LeBron didn't show up offensively or defensively or clutch-wise while Wade was carrying the scoring load.

Why are you even bringing Kobe up???

The Heat lost, they didn't play well. Sorry, I mean Lebron didn't play well, which is why they lost.

C-Style
02-20-2012, 07:12 PM
If he were to win 4, With2 finals MVPs, And another Regular season mvp(Maybe this year) and keeps up the scoring pace and rebounds and assists then he is in the conversation for GOAT

Shaq has 4 Rings, 3 Finals MVP's. Duncan has 4 Rings, 3 Finals MVP's, He's not surpassing them with 4 & 2

Jeff559
02-20-2012, 07:12 PM
In order to have a chance at GOAT, he's gonna have to leave the heat and win on his own. Even if he wins 4 straight championships, the "he had Wade and Bosh" card will always be played regardless, and will never have a chance to be in the discussion of top 5. If he goes back to Cleveland and puts the team on his back and wins a couple, then GOAT might be in the discussion. Unlikely though.

xxplayerxx23
02-20-2012, 07:12 PM
The Cavs did not lose Jamario Moon and Delonte West, they traded them away. What was Shaq going to do for the Cavs? He barely played last year. With Big Z the Cavs still would of been horrible last year.



I can't take you're list seriously. No Iman Shumpert? :facepalm:

Damn how did i forget :speechless:

Bruno
02-20-2012, 07:12 PM
Im not saying he would be number 1, Im saying talked about as in there league, 4 rings, with him keeping up his pace in scoring assists Rebounds steals, He would have to be talked about as one of the best ever to play the game
oh oh, got ya. i thought you meant as #1. the potential resume you put up there is indisputable top ten i would say. throw in a 3/4 finals mvps and he coud be argued as top 5, imo.



And I don't remember anyone being able to cover Rose up until the ECF and Lebron made him his *****.

Rose shot under 45% from field during the 2011 playoffs in 11 out of 16 games. he shot under 40% in 7 out of 16 games. he shot under 30%, three times, two of which were against Indiana. Here's his game log:
http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/r/rosede01/gamelog/2011/

LeBron did a fantastic job in the bulls series. but so did bosh, and nobody says a thing about it.

xxplayerxx23
02-20-2012, 07:14 PM
Shaq has 4 Rings, 3 Finals MVP's. Duncan has 4 Rings, 3 Finals MVP's, He's not surpassing them with 4 & 2

still he would have 3 regular season MVPs at least Fine Make it 4 regular season MVPS, If he keeps up the scoring he will pass both, Plus his rebounds assists and Steals for A SF will be high, Not saying he will pass anyone but He has a chance to be in the consideration

Spiggity_ace
02-20-2012, 07:14 PM
wen he wins multiple chips and mvps u better b elieve hes gonna be up there with kobe n jordan as the greatest of all time, hes wut 26? hes probably gonna be rated the GOAT

NoahH
02-20-2012, 07:18 PM
wen he wins multiple chips and mvps u better b elieve hes gonna be up there with kobe n jordan as the greatest of all time, hes wut 26? hes probably gonna be rated the GOAT

27. Dominating players like Lebron can probably play effectively until their 36-38 so he's got like 8-10 good years left. Probably around 37 i could see him averaging Jordan-esque Wizard numbers. 22ppg,7rpg, 7asts or something.

Sinestro
02-20-2012, 07:22 PM
I don't believe he can pass MJ or Kareem, everyone else is within reach imo

Sota4Ever
02-20-2012, 07:26 PM
Haha lebron play tell he's 37 are you nuts?? He will play tell 32 and start to decline. Lebron lives off his athleticism.

NoahH
02-20-2012, 07:29 PM
Haha lebron play tell he's 37 are you nuts?? He will play tell 32 and start to decline. Lebron lives off his athleticism.

I think he can adjust his game into a distributing / jump shooting kind of player. He doesn't use his athleticism as much as Wade and he's physically stronger and more durable anyways.

faridk89
02-20-2012, 07:30 PM
can we stop these stupid *** threads.... for $@%@ sakes he can win 6 championships and 6 finals MVP's and be the best of all time or he can win jack **** and be the most talented POS to ever play in the NBA....

you morons have been talking about this for years...enough already

xxplayerxx23
02-20-2012, 07:30 PM
Haha lebron play tell he's 37 are you nuts?? He will play tell 32 and start to decline. Lebron lives off his athleticism.

till i think you mean, and are you kidding guys built like a truck he will play till 37+ i dont think he will be as effictive as kobe and jordan at 37 38 but he will still play at a high level

Vampirate
02-20-2012, 07:31 PM
If he some how wins 5 while beig THE guy, with 3 FMVPs and at least one more regular season MVP, you gotta put him in the conversation with the top 3 of all time. He is without question the most physically gifted and talented player ever IMO

No I would say Wilt gets that title.

C-Style
02-20-2012, 07:33 PM
still he would have 3 regular season MVPs at least Fine Make it 4 regular season MVPS, If he keeps up the scoring he will pass both, Plus his rebounds assists and Steals for A SF will be high, Not saying he will pass anyone but He has a chance to be in the consideration

MVP awards that are voted on by the media aren't really a solid accomplishment. They hand them out to undeserving players all the time. It won't put him in the GOAT conversation, He would be somewhere in the Shaq, Duncan Bird, Convo

xxplayerxx23
02-20-2012, 07:35 PM
MVP awards that are voted on by the media aren't really a solid accomplishment. They hand them out to undeserving players all the time.

but he desereved the two he got, And as of right now deserves it.

C-Style
02-20-2012, 07:39 PM
but he desereved the two he got, And as of right now deserves it.

And Shaq deserved a lot more than just 1, So why play that against him?

pedrofan45
02-20-2012, 07:41 PM
And Shaq deserved a lot more than just 1, So why play that against him?

Don't be mad because Kobe has only won one and didn't even deserve it ;)

Sota4Ever
02-20-2012, 07:46 PM
Why do we always care to rank players? can't we just enjoy them. In my opinion unless you watch every game for every player you will never have a correct ranking. Who cares about stats/advanced stats. You need to watch the games to be able to be correct. And even then every one has a different opinion.

MTL_123
02-20-2012, 07:48 PM
Haha lebron play tell he's 37 are you nuts?? He will play tell 32 and start to decline. Lebron lives off his athleticism.

Thats why hes shooting 53% from the field:confused:

Sota4Ever
02-20-2012, 07:49 PM
Does that take into account the fast break dunks and layups??

Lakers + Giants
02-20-2012, 07:54 PM
0-2 in the finals and screwing up so many times have already really hurt his legacy tbh. I'll put it like this, kobe's 5-7 in the finals and those 2 losses have already hurt his legacy to an extent. . . 0-2 is definitely gonna hurt LBJ. Top 10 player not top 5 though. . .unless he wins like 4 or more rings.

ManRam
02-20-2012, 07:55 PM
1.


let's let his career play out. if he keeps up this other-world production, being clearly the best player in the nba for a few more years (only 2-3 players can say they were clearly the best for more than a couple years) and he gets 4 or so rings, then he might be #2 on my list. individually, i think he's close to already being the second best player...he needs to team success now, and show his "clutch" play off a bit more (something he displayed early in his career, and the first three rounds last year).

i don't think he'll ever be considered #1, not like jordan is, but i think it's very likely he gets up there. he starts winning, and there will be absolutely no argument against him. that's ALL the detractors have going for them.


like i said in the other thread, i can't blame the man for not winning it all in cleveland. no player ever won a championship with as little around him as lebron would have...and i can't think of many others who could have had that much success as he did. i knocked him down a few pegs after last year, because now he SHOULD ABSOLUTELY be winning titles. a few more misses these next few years and the door shuts, for sure. but i can't blame him for not winning in cleveland. he didn't get blessed with a great team around him like the greats of our era...or really any era.


i have the ability to realize that team success takes a TEAM. he's got a great team now, much like the laker, celtic, spurs etc. teams of late. now he's gotta win. period.

C-Style
02-20-2012, 07:56 PM
Don't be mad because Kobe has only won one and didn't even deserve it ;)

Im not mad, Im furious

KB-Pau-DH2012
02-20-2012, 07:59 PM
Here's a good question:

If LeBron wins his 3rd league MVP this yr (which seems most likely), but the Bulls get to the NBA Finals and Derrick Rose wins his first championship and finals mvp (remember, he already has a ROY and youngest League MVP)...

Is it possible that Derrick Rose by the end of this season will jump ahead of LeBron James in the all-time ranks? The fact that Chicago is one of the teams that LeBron spurned in the summer of 2010 and that Rose would be able to win a championship without another superstar? And that too, winning his first title in his 4th yr.

nickdymez
02-20-2012, 08:04 PM
he's the most talented player in NBA history, so the sky is the limit... however, whether he achieves all of the goals is a whole other issue.

Statements like this is why people hate Lebron.

Hawkeye15
02-20-2012, 08:06 PM
He can't be #1 anymore imho. If he can win 3 rings, 2 Finals MVP's, another MVP or 2, he easily now climbs into the top 5. But he needs to dominate his peers and clearly be the best player in the league another 3-4 years, win 2-3 titles, and have 2 Finals MVP's and another regular season or two MVP to move into that 2-4 area.

Hawkeye15
02-20-2012, 08:09 PM
We have guys in the 7-10 range who can't claim being the leagues best player for more than 1-3 years at any given time, with 1 MVP. So LeBron haters thinking he has no chance to pass Kobe, Duncan, Hakeem, Shaq, or Bird forget he already has a couple seasons with better numbers then all of them, more MVP's then 3 of them, and is 28. He can easily pass them, its up to him to get it done in the playoffs now.

ManRam
02-20-2012, 08:11 PM
Here's a good question:

If LeBron wins his 3rd league MVP this yr (which seems most likely), but the Bulls get to the NBA Finals and Derrick Rose wins his first championship and finals mvp (remember, he already has a ROY and youngest League MVP)...

Is it possible that Derrick Rose by the end of this season will jump ahead of LeBron James in the all-time ranks? The fact that Chicago is one of the teams that LeBron spurned in the summer of 2010 and that Rose would be able to win a championship without another superstar? And that too, winning his first title in his 4th yr.

not if you're ranking stirctly the best players...because rose has never been a better player than lebron.

but "legacy" is a word that is affected by so much more than just being a better individual player. i think some people would argue it...and depending on how amazing he played, i think they'd all be wrong.


name me the players, in the history of the nba, that were the obvious best players in the nba for a 4 year span. the last person was jordan. before that, i don't know...but i doubt it's many. lebron, barring a complete breakdown, has been the best player in the nba for a 4 year span now. sure, he doesn't have a ring (won't regurgitate my TEAM talk...and if he doesn't win it this year than shame on him...and i'll stop defending him so much), but he's been the best player in the nba for a while now...kobe, arguably (no offense to kobephiles) never was really ever deserving of an MVP award in his career...think about that.

i mean, the season he's having this year is easily a top 3-5 individual regular season ever. we haven't even seen play like this from the likes of MJ before. no joke. #2 all time in WS/48...on pace to finish with the single greatest PER ever...and is already a full point ahead of Wilt (who currently holds the title). over an 82 game season, he's on pace to be like a 22-23 win player. that's amazing in today's game.

the ONLY argument against him is a lack of rings. once those come, there will be nothing left to argue about.

albertc86
02-20-2012, 08:18 PM
he's the most talented player in NBA history, so the sky is the limit... however, whether he achieves all of the goals is a whole other issue.

I'd give you most athletic and physically gifted but not most talented. He's still relatively weak in certain areas. The true test of his "talent" will come in a few years when he has to start relying on his craftiness and shot more than attacking the rim. All the greats go through this transition and it will be interesting to see how he goes through it because he does rely on attacking the rim so much and once the explosiveness dwindles, then what? IMO, he's not even more talented than Wade. I think Wade will go through the transition a lot better than LeBron at this point.

Yankees22
02-20-2012, 08:20 PM
LeBron can be remembered as the best player of all time. He's arguably the most talented of all time as it is. There's no doubt in my mind he'll get himself a few championships before it's all said and done. How many will determine how he's remembered though

UPRock
02-20-2012, 08:28 PM
Top 5, and he's going to end as the greatest SF in the game.

Lake_Show2416
02-20-2012, 08:33 PM
surely top 100

Hawkeye15
02-20-2012, 08:37 PM
surely top 100

this

BklyNyk
02-20-2012, 08:39 PM
I hate lists so I'll just say he'll probably be ranked as the 2nd best SF of all time imo. He's an athletic monster and he's extremely talented but I don't ever see him being the kind of player Larry Bird was. That is in no way an insult to Lebron either.

KB-Pau-DH2012
02-20-2012, 08:40 PM
I hate lists so I'll just say he'll probably be ranked as the 2nd best SF of all time imo. He's an athletic monster and he's extremely talented but I don't ever see him being the kind of player Larry Bird was. That is in no way an insult to Lebron either.

He lacks the intangibles and intensity and that nastiness and toughness that Larry had.

BklyNyk
02-20-2012, 09:41 PM
He lacks the intangibles and intensity and that nastiness and toughness that Larry had.

Exactly. Not to mention, Bird was definition of clutch.

atl_braves_fan
02-20-2012, 09:42 PM
In order to have a chance at GOAT, he's gonna have to leave the heat and win on his own. Even if he wins 4 straight championships, the "he had Wade and Bosh" card will always be played regardless, and will never have a chance to be in the discussion of top 5. If he goes back to Cleveland and puts the team on his back and wins a couple, then GOAT might be in the discussion. Unlikely though.

No offense intended because I know that you are correct and people will play that "card," but that is a ridiculous standard ...

Jordan had Pippen, Rodman/Grant & a HOF coach;

Shaq had Kobe and then Wade

Kobe had Shaq and then Odom & Gasol

Magic had Kareem and Worthy

Bird had McHale, Parrish, et al

Duncan had Robinson and then Parker & Ginobili

The Celtics, Pistons and Mavericks were all very good and very deep teams.

If you are going to say that your standard is that you have to win as the only star on the team, then Hakeem would have to be your best player of all time, because he had nothing but a bunch of role players on that '94 team and a bunch of role players and an over-the-hill Drexler on that '95 team.

Hawkeye15
02-20-2012, 09:46 PM
Exactly. Not to mention, Bird was definition of clutch.

as a man who grew up watching Bird/Magic, and LOVING Larry Bird, he had plenty of moments where he wasn't clutch in the slightest.

Selective memory. I mention is constantly, yet it gets ignored, due to selective memory. As great as Bird was, he was 1/10th the defender LeBron is, while Bron is as good in every offensive facet outside 3 point shooting, but offsets it with the ability to attack the rim. He could pass Bird if he wins rings and keeps being the best player in the league for a few more years.

Hawkeye15
02-20-2012, 09:48 PM
No offense intended because I know that you are correct and people will play that "card," but that is a ridiculous standard ...

Jordan had Pippen, Rodman/Grant & a HOF coach;

Shaq had Kobe and then Wade

Kobe had Shaq and then Odom & Gasol

Magic had Kareem and Worthy

Bird had McHale, Parrish, et al

Duncan had Robinson and then Parker & Ginobili

The Celtics, Pistons and Mavericks were all very good and very deep teams.

If you are going to say that your standard is that you have to win as the only star on the team, then Hakeem would have to be your best player of all time, because he had nothing but a bunch of role players on that '94 team and a bunch of role players and an over-the-hill Drexler on that '95 team.


It literally makes me lol when people already attempt to discredit his future rings with the Wade/Bosh ****. Some of the so called best players of all time (winners), have had incredible rosters. Bron just got his last year. Lets see what happens going forward.

JJ_JKidd
02-20-2012, 09:59 PM
If he gets 2 tittles(Finals MVP) I don't think he get's passed Shaq, Kobe, Duncan & Hakeem. If he wins 3, he's definetly in the conversation. IMO anything more than that is nearly impossible, IMO he has a 5 year window to win that many with this team.(Let's be honest great things always come to an end), with the emergence of Durant & Thunder, Rose & Bulls, Clippers, & Kobe looking to win more before he retires I see it VERY difficult. & I doubt he wins all his F-MVP's playing along side Wade and to an extend Bosh who has a good outside shot. 2 Finals MVP's & 3 championships sounds right. @ best I have him at 5-7 at worst 7-12, Thought?

Lets just wait till he finishes his career is that alright?

JordansBulls
02-20-2012, 10:07 PM
Rodman played 3 years with Jordan, pretty big leap to say he's in the HoF because of Jordan.

Rodman lead the league in rebounding those 3 years and you know allstars are selected on flash, not defense.

Bulls lost HoF Jordan, HoF Pippen, HoF Rodman, HoF Jackson, HoF Winter, Future HoF Kukoc.

And they still had a winning percentage of 26%, while the Cavs won 21% of their games.

And Pippen was flat out better then Wade.

He is in the hall because of his success with the Bulls.
And Ben Wallace never had problems making the allstar team.

Bulls lost MJ who was the only allstar on the 1998 team. Next off Kukoc is not a hall of famer. Cavs lost HOF Shaq proven winner 3x finals mvp and 1x league mvp.

And Pippen in no shape or form is better than Wade, Wade is clearly a superior player to Pippen and carried a team to the title as the man.

BklyNyk
02-20-2012, 10:13 PM
as a man who grew up watching Bird/Magic, and LOVING Larry Bird, he had plenty of moments where he wasn't clutch in the slightest.

Selective memory. I mention is constantly, yet it gets ignored, due to selective memory. As great as Bird was, he was 1/10th the defender LeBron is, while Bron is as good in every offensive facet outside 3 point shooting, but offsets it with the ability to attack the rim. He could pass Bird if he wins rings and keeps being the best player in the league for a few more years.

Nothing selective about my memory. I never claimed Bird was perfect in the clutch but I would take Bird in a clutch situation over Lebron every time. Perhaps I should have worded my post differently. Again , I'm in no means trying to discredit Lebron because I think he's a fantastic player but I still prefer Bird.

ManRam
02-20-2012, 10:16 PM
as a man who grew up watching Bird/Magic, and LOVING Larry Bird, he had plenty of moments where he wasn't clutch in the slightest.

Selective memory. I mention is constantly, yet it gets ignored, due to selective memory. As great as Bird was, he was 1/10th the defender LeBron is, while Bron is as good in every offensive facet outside 3 point shooting, but offsets it with the ability to attack the rim. He could pass Bird if he wins rings and keeps being the best player in the league for a few more years.

Selective memory is why we think most of these all-time clutch players are clutch, even if they only make under 40% of those clutch shots...

it's not hard to make 30 game-winning shots when you take 110 of them. there are A LOT of players who benefit from this. i can't say if bird was one or not though...i'm a bit of a young'n.

SouthSideSox
02-20-2012, 10:29 PM
The way I try to think about it is imagining a ProSportsDaily forums running during the 90s and the people on there debating whether Jordan was the greatest of all time. Tt's hard for me to even imagine people even having that debate.. I just don't think it happened, and that it wasn't even possible to debate it. And obviously that isn't happening with Lebron today.

LakersMaster24
02-20-2012, 10:31 PM
Only PSD posters can put a player in the Top 5 All Time before he won a single ring. Classic.

Hulk6
02-20-2012, 10:33 PM
if he gets 3 rings i see him being #2. Like others said, hard to put anyone higher than MJ

ghettosean
02-20-2012, 10:35 PM
Your telling me that team without Lebron wins more then 12 games? the second best player was mo williams, he had nobody, Lebron put on any team is automatically in the playoffs and has a shot to win it all
I hate when people say this nonsense... Did the Clippers make the playoffs last year? This year people think they will contend to come out of the western conference like Lebron did in the finals but if you take CP3 out of the conversation do they still make the playoffs. We are witnessing him play now and we know he does not have garbage around him and neither did LBJ.

If you really want to make this arguement in his favour how about him going to the finals like he did with the Cavs but instead he is with 1 of the top 3 players in the game (this includes Lebron in the top 3) and then add Bosh who is a top 20 player... Where is the excuse there???

Lets shut down the stupid excuses to try and say LBJ can be the GOAT that ship has sailed.

ghettosean
02-20-2012, 10:37 PM
if he gets 3 rings i see him being #2. Like others said, hard to put anyone higher than MJ
Yep he would be better than Kareem who had more championships and one of the best players of all time and why not Shaq too who has 4 rings and 3 finals MVPS.

#2 is insane... The new generation will give him #2 but those who have seen the players before him know better.

ghettosean
02-20-2012, 10:38 PM
Only PSD posters can put a player in the Top 5 All Time before he won a single ring. Classic.
This!!!

Raps18-19 Champ
02-20-2012, 10:39 PM
Top 10.

He's got the talent, he just hasn't applied it all to success.

Fnom11
02-20-2012, 10:40 PM
With his Talent and Athleticism he could be #1, but it's highly, highly, highly, highly unlikely. If he stayed in Cle and won them like 3 he probably would've been considered the greatest(who knows).

I'd say 3 or 4

naps
02-20-2012, 10:47 PM
Only PSD posters can put a player in the Top 5 All Time before he won a single ring. Classic.
:facepalm:

Did you read the thread title and posts before you made your post? No one is saying he's already top 5. It's a prediction thread and people are sharing their opinions based what they think he will rank with 'X' number of rings and other accomplishments. Your post didn't make any sense but nevermind when was the last time a kobephile made any sense...never.

Cal827
02-20-2012, 10:51 PM
If he can continue his pace with those numbers I think 6-10 with no titles, and 2 (with multiple titles) or 3-6 with a title.

ghettosean
02-20-2012, 11:00 PM
I know a lot of people are putting emphasis on titles in here for LBJ to be #2 all time but lets not forget that he formed a super team like a guy who couldn't or can't be a leader on his own team so he joined Wades. I don't know how people can rank him so high even though he did what other players before him never did...

Joined force with 2 other FRANCHISE players who were leaders of there own teams in hopes of winning. If that doesn't taint his legacy just give him GOAT already and lets get it done with.

LakersMaster24
02-20-2012, 11:12 PM
:facepalm:

Did you read the thread title and posts before you made your post? No one is saying he's already top 5. It's a prediction thread and people are sharing their opinions based what they think he will rank with 'X' number of rings and other accomplishments. Your post didn't make any sense but nevermind when was the last time a kobephile made any sense...never.

Haha according to you anyone who DOESNT bash Kobe is a kobephile :laugh:

I am sorry, I didnt mean to hurt your feelings. :cry: I mean come on? If he wins 2-3 rings and people put him in the Top 5 lol

naps
02-20-2012, 11:19 PM
Haha according to you anyone who DOESNT bash Kobe is a kobephile :laugh:

I am sorry, I didnt mean to hurt your feelings. :cry: I mean come on? If he wins 2-3 rings and people put him in the Top 5 lol

Don't twist words. This was your original post:


Only PSD posters can put a player in the Top 5 All Time before he won a single ring. Classic.

How pathetic is that? You are a certified Kobephile and your jealous and insecure post proves it. This is a prediction thread and people are making their predictions. Show me one post where someone said LeBron is already a top 5 without a ring. Please do. I am waiting.

LakersMaster24
02-20-2012, 11:22 PM
Don't twist words. This was your original post:



How pathetic is that? You are a certified Kobephile and your jealous and insecure post proves it. This is a prediction thread and people are making their predictions. Show me one post where someone said LeBron is already a top 5 without a ring. Please do. I am waiting.

You clearly need to check your IQ level.

When I say only PSD posters can put him in the Top 10 without any rings, I mean to say that people are just sure that he will win rings. People in this thread are saying 3 rings and he is 2nd to Jordan, or 1 rings and he is Top 8 already.

Lebron needs to win at least 3 rings to make it to my Top 10.

TheNumber37
02-20-2012, 11:23 PM
It really all depends on how many rings he wins.
He has to at least get 4-5 to be considered a top 5.

Assuming he gets 1 or 2... I wouldn't put him above a prime Jordan, Kobe, Shaq.
Anywhere from 4-10.

whitemamba33
02-21-2012, 12:59 AM
He's obviously an amazing talent, but once his athleticism starts to slow I think he's going to be exposed a little bit. I don't see him carrying teams to championships in his late mid/late 30's. I don't have enough faith in his jump shot, and he hasn't really developed a postgame that is going to carry him once he can't jump over a school bus anymore.

And to the people saying he could go down as #1 without 6 titles....what exactly is he going to do that can replace several NBA championships? In the event he wins four, what else could he have done to make me think he's better than Michael Jordan?

I just don't see it happening.

KB-Pau-DH2012
02-21-2012, 02:39 AM
No offense intended because I know that you are correct and people will play that "card," but that is a ridiculous standard ...

Jordan had Pippen, Rodman/Grant & a HOF coach;

Shaq had Kobe and then Wade

Kobe had Shaq and then Odom & Gasol

Magic had Kareem and Worthy

Bird had McHale, Parrish, et al

Duncan had Robinson and then Parker & Ginobili

The Celtics, Pistons and Mavericks were all very good and very deep teams.

If you are going to say that your standard is that you have to win as the only star on the team, then Hakeem would have to be your best player of all time, because he had nothing but a bunch of role players on that '94 team and a bunch of role players and an over-the-hill Drexler on that '95 team.



Here's the thing, all of those combos you just mentioned were created through management making trades or drafts.

LeBron via free agency CHOSE IN HIS PRIME TO PLAY WITH PRIME WADE AND PRIME BOSH at a time when LeBron and Wade are viewed as top 5 players in the game while Bosh is in the top 15.

Big difference. It was none of those guys chose to want to play with the other. LeBron made that choice himself.

Raps18-19 Champ
02-21-2012, 02:47 AM
You clearly need to check your IQ level.

When I say only PSD posters can put him in the Top 10 without any rings, I mean to say that people are just sure that he will win rings. People in this thread are saying 3 rings and he is 2nd to Jordan, or 1 rings and he is Top 8 already.

Lebron needs to win at least 3 rings to make it to my Top 10.

Wilt and Hakeem have 2 titles and are in the top 10.

People argue Oscar at top 10 and he only has 1 title. Same goes for Moses Malone and Jerry West.

Why does Lebron need to win 3 just to be in the top 10?

KB-Pau-DH2012
02-21-2012, 02:49 AM
Wilt and Hakeem have 2 titles and are in the top 10.

People argue Oscar at top 10 and he only has 1 title. Same goes for Moses Malone and Jerry West.

Why does Lebron need to win 3 just to be in the top 10?

Because so far in his career, he has failed so miserably to win a championship. Twice lost in the finals (most notably last yr he had one putrid performance in the 4th qtr after another), and failed to lead his team to the finals in back-to-back League MVP Seasons with best regular season record in the NBA both seasons.

LakersMaster24
02-21-2012, 02:50 AM
Wilt and Hakeem have 2 titles and are in the top 10.

People argue Oscar at top 10 and he only has 1 title. Same goes for Moses Malone and Jerry West.

Why does Lebron need to win 3 just to be in the top 10?

Nevermind, you are right. If he is going to make it to the Top 5, then he gotta at least win 3 rings, while being THE MAN on his team like he is now. Lets not start comparing Wilt or Hakeem to Lebron...not yet.

ManningToTyree
02-21-2012, 02:53 AM
Top 3 is the ceiling

Top 10 is the likely range

The_Jamal
02-21-2012, 03:00 AM
Statistically, he's already a top 5 player of all time. However, he's got to get some rings behind those stats before he can be in the GOAT conversation. But I see no reason why he won't at least be in the discussion by the end of his career

Raps18-19 Champ
02-21-2012, 03:00 AM
Because so far in his career, he has failed so miserably to win a championship. Twice lost in the finals (most notably last yr he had one putrid performance in the 4th qtr after another), and failed to lead his team to the finals in back-to-back League MVP Seasons with best regular season record in the NBA both seasons.

Hakeem took 9 years to win a title. He also failed in the Finals before he won a title.

Wilt continuously dominated the league with MVPs and all that yet he didn't get to the finals.

There's just as much things you can bag Lebron or for Hakeem.

I'm not saying Lebron is better than them but don't bag Lebron for his failures when there's other players who's failed before too.

KB-Pau-DH2012
02-21-2012, 03:09 AM
Hakeem took 9 years to win a title. He also failed in the Finals before he won a title.

Wilt continuously dominated the league with MVPs and all that yet he didn't get to the finals.

There's just as much things you can bag Lebron or for Hakeem.

I'm not saying Lebron is better than them but don't bag Lebron for his failures when there's other players who's failed before too.

When Hakeem lost in the finals in '86, he wasn't even the main guy, it was Ralph Sampson. It became Hakeem's team in the late 80 early 90s. And Rockets didn't have homecourt advantage in the finals either. And they lost to the legendary Boston Celtics in the NBA finals, a Celtics team that was pissed from losing in the finals to the Lakers in the previous Finals in '85.


Won't hold the 07 sweep to San Antonio against LeBron because he was very very young and that Cavs team had no business being in the finals at that time (we all credit LeBron for taking that team to the finals). But last yr's finals as "the best player in the game" and choking every game in the 4th qtr, and Wade basically outperforming him that series was devastating to his legacy. Remember, the Heat had homecourt advantage in the finals and still lost to the Mavs.

ThuglifeJ
02-21-2012, 03:10 AM
Dont be naive ppl..when I say ppl I mean arrogant Heat fans who watch nothing but their own team and who overreact at every single lob pass.

MJ's legacy CANNOT be topped. They tried to with Lebron when they realized that all the baby Jordans (Kobe, AI, Tmac, VInce, mostly Kobe, etc) had too many flaws. Not in their game but in their legacy compared to Jordan's.
They might have lied about a few things with Jordan to make his legacy better, but his legacy is PERFECT. Drafted and finished by same team. Numbers, milestones, Longevity, NIKE Jordan brand, CHampionships, Dominance/smarts/athleticism at the time, IMAGE, Chicago, gamewinners, final shot on gamewinner, go through hardships - succeeding, etc ,etc

You cannot top it unless you plan it from the beginning, like they did with Lebron in high school with all the magazines, they made him their poster boy instantly. BUT look what happened..Ditched Cleveland to team with 2 other superstars, has the image of an immature "bad guy", has BLOWN IT IN THE CLUTCH, ugly image, etc.

Im not saying I agree with all of that being important I'm just saying theres no shot at him finishing GOAT anymore..too many flaws to overcome now, Jordan was perfect from the start to finish just about..or at least the media got enough ppl to believe that.

Unless James puts up ridiculous numbers like he is now even in his 30s, wins back to back to back championships, more MVPs, and ignites a whole shoe company, and hits gamewinning shots in the playoffs theres no shot...

Only person who can honestly reach a jordan status is Jeremy Lin. But he wont, obviously. Kobe has a sliggght chance, but hes gotta do some crazy things to do so..hes not as dominant as Jordan was.

Id say top 8 is his ceiling. I think he'll finish top 25 forsure, and end up at 10th about. Call me a hater if you want.

waveycrockett
02-21-2012, 03:13 AM
Cavs lost Lebron, Shaq, Delonte, Big Z, Jamario Moon and their coach in Mike Brown as well as Varajeo for the year. If it was just Lebron and the rest of the cast stayed intact with no additions or substractions you would have a valid point.

The next season basically none of those guys played in the NBA except for Delonte who came off the bench for Boston. The big names were washed up as hell and barely even played. Jamario Moon???? Really?

Raps18-19 Champ
02-21-2012, 03:17 AM
When Hakeem lost in the finals in '86, he wasn't even the main guy, it was Ralph Sampson. It became Hakeem's team in the late 80 early 90s. And Rockets didn't have homecourt advantage in the finals either. And they lost to the legendary Boston Celtics in the NBA finals, a Celtics team that was pissed from losing in the finals to the Lakers in the previous Finals in '85.


Won't hold the 07 sweep to San Antonio against LeBron because he was very very young and that Cavs team had no business being in the finals at that time (we all credit LeBron for taking that team to the finals). But last yr's finals as "the best player in the game" and choking every game in the 4th qtr, and Wade basically outperforming him that series was devastating to his legacy. Remember, the Heat had homecourt advantage in the finals and still lost to the Mavs.

If you look at the stats, Hakeem was the better player than Sampson in their finals season. But yea, I do hold Lebron against last years failure.

I'm just saying titles aren't everything when there's players considered top 10 who have their own sets of failures or lack of success.

waveycrockett
02-21-2012, 03:19 AM
For me it has nothing to do with team accomplishments. AI is one of the best players I have ever seen. Top-10 of the last 2 decades but he never won anything same for Ewing. For LeBron he needs to develop a better shot or a post game. It would hard for me to say a guy is the best player of his generation when he is not great at any one thing.

KB-Pau-DH2012
02-21-2012, 03:20 AM
If you look at the stats, Hakeem was the better player than Sampson in their finals season. But yea, I do hold Lebron against last years failure.

I'm just saying titles aren't everything when there's players considered top 10 who have their own sets of failures or lack of success.

Oscar was a walking triple double, but would I put him in the Top 10 because of that?...probably not. He did win 1 championship with the Bucks, but that was due to a dominant Lew Alcindor (Kareem), who btw was only in his 2nd season. When Kareem was traded to LA in '75, Oscar was never relevant in the championship picture ever again.


Jerry West lost in the finals 9 times and won 1 championship. His heartbreaking 7 finals losses to the Celtics and not being able to beat them even once hurts his legacy in a way. Btw, Jerry didn't even win the finals matchups with the Knicks. Lakers won their first one in LA in '72 while the Knicks won the other 2 matchups in '70 and '73. (Knicks 2 titles to Lakers 1 title in that era).

Raps18-19 Champ
02-21-2012, 03:25 AM
Oscar was a walking triple double, but would I put him in the Top 10 because of that?...probably not. He did win 1 championship with the Bucks, but that was due to a dominant Lew Alcindor (Kareem), who btw was only in his 2nd season. When Kareem was traded to LA in '75, Oscar was never relevant in the championship picture ever again.


Jerry West lost in the finals 9 times and won 1 championship. His heartbreaking 7 finals losses to the Celtics and not being able to beat them even once hurts his legacy in a way. Btw, Jerry didn't even win the finals matchups with the Knicks. Lakers won their first one in LA in '72 while the Knicks won the other 2 matchups in '70 and '73. (Knicks 2 titles to Lakers 1 title in that era).

There's only so much barring a title has. The rest is talent and single achievements.

That's why players like West, Oscar, Wilt and a couple more get considered the best despite lacking in the hardware department considering their talent.

That's the category Lebron falls in. Lebron can most certainly get the accolades and that's what will propel him to top 10 along with the handful of titles he might get.

latinofire21
02-21-2012, 03:29 AM
20 - 25. Further behind if he never wins a championship.

ThuglifeJ
02-21-2012, 03:32 AM
he cant get #1..no chance. better argument is where will he end up on all-time scoring list i cant figure it out. he started so early where he could finish even #1..but I have no faith in his game when hes 32 years +..look at Mac/Vince/AI..all better scorers imo in their primes..

KB-Pau-DH2012
02-21-2012, 03:34 AM
There's only so much barring a title has. The rest is talent and single achievements.

That's why players like West, Oscar, Wilt and a couple more get considered the best despite lacking in the hardware department considering their talent.

That's the category Lebron falls in. Lebron can most certainly get the accolades and that's what will propel him to top 10 along with the handful of titles he might get.

I can make the case for Wilt for not having as many rings as some guys but being ranked so high all in all. Even though Wilt has a pair of championship rings (less than compared to the guys ranked above him like MJ, Kareem, Magic, Russell), he is that high as my #5 because of the way he won those championships + his dominance. He won a title with the Philadelphia 76ers as the guy, and then he got the Jerry West led Lakers to an NBA Championship after failing against the Celtics (7 times) and the Knicks in 1970. He got Jerry West and Gail Goodrich their only titles, was the finals MVP, and plus, that '72 Lakers championship team won the title without their probably best scorer in Elgin Baylor (who broke his leg 9 games into the '71-72 season and then retired), but yet old man Chamberlain, without Baylor, got the Lakers franchise over the hump for their first championship in Los Angeles. Jerry West can thank Wilt.

It's the way you get those titles and in what situations and hardships you face to ultimately come out on top.

LA_Raiders
02-21-2012, 04:16 AM
Top 15... I dont see him winning more than 1 ring...

shizzle09
02-21-2012, 04:59 AM
considering Jordan didnt win his first title until he was 28 and Lebron is yet to turn 28 i'd say the sky is the limit. Still to early to call on this one.

shizzle09
02-21-2012, 05:04 AM
For me it has nothing to do with team accomplishments. AI is one of the best players I have ever seen. Top-10 of the last 2 decades but he never won anything same for Ewing. For LeBron he needs to develop a better shot or a post game. It would hard for me to say a guy is the best player of his generation when he is not great at any one thing.

are you watching the games this year? he's gone to the post game way more and he's shooting at a high percentage so what shot would you suggest he develope. He's on pace to have one of the best seasons ever so im guessing his game is doing just fine.

waveycrockett
02-21-2012, 05:12 AM
are you watching the games this year? he's gone to the post game way more and he's shooting at a high percentage so what shot would you suggest he develope. He's on pace to have one of the best seasons ever so im guessing his game is doing just fine.

He's won MVP's before and he's had "streaks" where his shot has dropped from deep but he's never been able to put it together for a long time. This season is not 2 months old yet so it's far from being a fact that LeBron has found a real stroke or developed a true post game.

bringinwood
02-21-2012, 05:16 AM
LBJ is already top 20 in NBA history...

When all is said and done, i'll say he will be either 2 or 3 behind MJ or Wilt...


The championship arguement is beyond flawed...

No one in the history of the NBA, besides possibly Jordan, could have put those Cavalier teams in contention...

He won 66 games with a roster that was full of reserves on most squads... Aside from LBJ, there best players were Anderson Varajo, Mo Williams, and Boobie Gibson....

I mean, remember when Kobe was complaining about having Lamar Odom, Kwame Brown, Andrew Bynum, Vlad Rad, and Aaron McKie ???

If LBJ had that roster, they would have broken the 96 Bulls record...

Just for the record, I completely mean that... To think that LBJ was able to win 66 games with that Cavs roster and he couldnt win 6 more games with the vastly more talented roster the Lakers had when Kobe was whining and wanted to get traded is lunacy...

bringinwood
02-21-2012, 05:28 AM
He's won MVP's before and he's had "streaks" where his shot has dropped from deep but he's never been able to put it together for a long time. This season is not 2 months old yet so it's far from being a fact that LeBron has found a real stroke or developed a true post game.

Admit it...

You're just full of LeBron hate...


LeBron is 7th this year in TS% and was 18th last year while claiming the 12th spot the year before that... Oh yeah, he is routinely in the top 2 or 3 in shot attempts in the NBA each year...

LBJ had a better field goal percentage than Derrick Rose, Kobe Bryant, and Kevin Durant last year...

To say that he doesn't have a shot or that he doesn't have a post game is absolutely ridiculous...

I understand that Kobe is the " absolutely bestestest baseketbulz playaaa in da wsorldz " but, at least make some kind of logical sense...

naps
02-21-2012, 06:55 AM
You clearly need to check your IQ level.

My IQ level? Here's your post again:


Only PSD posters can put a player in the Top 5 All Time before he won a single ring. Classic.

Tell me English is not your first language please.


When I say only PSD posters can put him in the Top 10 without any rings, I mean to say that people are just sure that he will win rings. People in this thread are saying 3 rings and he is 2nd to Jordan, or 1 rings and he is Top 8 already.

People are just making their predictions since it's a prediction based thread.



Lebron needs to win at least 3 rings to make it to my Top 10.

Just like you made yours. Don't get mad when others make theirs just because they hurt your feelings.

naps
02-21-2012, 06:59 AM
Here's the thing, all of those combos you just mentioned were created through management making trades or drafts.

LeBron via free agency CHOSE IN HIS PRIME TO PLAY WITH PRIME WADE AND PRIME BOSH at a time when LeBron and Wade are viewed as top 5 players in the game while Bosh is in the top 15.

Big difference. It was none of those guys chose to want to play with the other. LeBron made that choice himself.

So in your opinion it's LeBron's fault why Cleveland didn't draft or trade a player of Wade or Bosh caliber? It's his fault that Mo freaking Williams was his second best player? Teams can make trades but a player can't choose his destiny? All the other greats won with great great talents but if LeBron wins with similar talents he doesn't get equal credit because he happened to choose his teammates? Good logic.

Tg2121
02-21-2012, 11:21 AM
He will finish with numerous titles, another MVP or 2 and let's be honest, he was one of the most anticipated athletes to ever come into a sport. His impact on the game of basketball has been tremendous. People either love him or hate him. The ones that hate him though are unrealistic about his game. I don't like Kobe Bryant but I'm not an idiot. He's a phenomenal basketball player. There's a difference between not likely someone and just being a hater. He'll easily finish top 5 if not #1 in my opinion. There's never been someone his size with that much skill. He impacts the game in ever category.

GOON MUSIC
02-21-2012, 11:45 AM
3-5 SEEMS Correct

If he wins a couple finals mvps I think 2

northsider
02-21-2012, 12:03 PM
Top 5 all time.

Hawkeye15
02-21-2012, 12:11 PM
I love reading some of you say his ceiling is top 15-25. That is called denial ladies and gents.

ChicagoJ
02-21-2012, 12:15 PM
He may be in the top 8, but could be top 5 or so when all is said and done. He won't be in the top 3. If he wins it all this year and is clutch late in games, then wins it all next year again, I'm pretty sure the comparisons will start being made with the top players of all time.

THE MTL
02-21-2012, 12:19 PM
First, I dont believe that you can rank the best of all time going in order from 1 - 10. I think you can name a Top 7 all time and just leave it at that. Besides MJ being number one, the argument can go TOO many ways for 2 - 7. (Kareem, Hakeem, Kobe, Magic, Bird, Robertson, Chamberlain, Russell)

But Lebron James can be mentioned in Top 7 of all time.

NYY NYJ NYK
02-21-2012, 12:38 PM
3-10 probably

ghettosean
02-21-2012, 12:50 PM
He may be in the top 8, but could be top 5 or so when all is said and done. He won't be in the top 3. If he wins it all this year and is clutch late in games, then wins it all next year again, I'm pretty sure the comparisons will start being made with the top players of all time.
This...

daleja424
02-21-2012, 12:58 PM
If he retired TODAY he would already go down as one of the 10 best players to ever play this game. If wins 3 or more rings he will be discussed in the top 5. He very well COULD still be the GOAT.

ghettosean
02-21-2012, 01:10 PM
If he retired TODAY he would already go down as one of the 10 best players to ever play this game. If wins 3 or more rings he will be discussed in the top 5. He very well COULD still be the GOAT.
Yes and the grass is blue and the sky is green... The ship for him being GOAT sailed from his multiple finals loses included the one last year when he had a teammate who is a top 3 player in the NBA and Bosh who is top 20.

GOAT is a failure in the big moments of his career I think not!

P.S

4 straight 4th quarters with 2 points or more in the finals... He is definately better than MJ for sure:facepalm:

LongIslandIcedZ
02-21-2012, 01:16 PM
You cant put a number on where he will be, only a range. Besides MJ at 1, there is really no definitive list of 2-10

joeystats
02-21-2012, 01:52 PM
I rate players on 3 things.... Numbers(stats)/Winner(rings)/Clutch(in big games) He has 1of 3 so not really close, probably the best stat sheet stuffer ever, but I can name multiples that I would rather play with, if they were to win titles it will because of Wade, even though they will give the finals MVP to LeBron cuz of numbers, Wade puts up the numbers, has a ring, and has hit multiple clutch shots in big games, so he has 3 of 3 of the things I look for. If Lebron was clutch he would have had 3 or 4 rings by now, but he's not, so he's not really a winner either, best fantasy basketball player in history though lol

GoferKing_
02-21-2012, 03:25 PM
If he were to win 4, With2 finals MVPs, And another Regular season mvp(Maybe this year) and keeps up the scoring pace and rebounds and assists then he is in the conversation for GOAT

He needs to win 6-7 champ's and avg 25 ppg in the finals, to be in conversation for the GOAT. Why should he win less than MJ and be GOAT? :facepalm:

PLAYERS FAN
02-21-2012, 06:21 PM
LBJ is already top 20 in NBA history...

When all is said and done, i'll say he will be either 2 or 3 behind MJ or Wilt...


The championship arguement is beyond flawed...

No one in the history of the NBA, besides possibly Jordan, could have put those Cavalier teams in contention...

He won 66 games with a roster that was full of reserves on most squads... Aside from LBJ, there best players were Anderson Varajo, Mo Williams, and Boobie Gibson....

I mean, remember when Kobe was complaining about having Lamar Odom, Kwame Brown, Andrew Bynum, Vlad Rad, and Aaron McKie ???

If LBJ had that roster, they would have broken the 96 Bulls record...

Just for the record, I completely mean that... To think that LBJ was able to win 66 games with that Cavs roster and he couldnt win 6 more games with the vastly more talented roster the Lakers had when Kobe was whining and wanted to get traded is lunacy...

Is this a joke? :facepalm:

ThuglifeJ
02-21-2012, 06:38 PM
Hmm he would have broken MJ's 96 bulls record with Kobe's team..Man what if he not only had Kobe's team but like had Dwyane Wade and an allstar big too! lol that would be nuts undefeated..

SteveNash
02-21-2012, 07:52 PM
He is in the hall because of his success with the Bulls.
And Ben Wallace never had problems making the allstar team.

Bulls lost MJ who was the only allstar on the 1998 team. Next off Kukoc is not a hall of famer. Cavs lost HOF Shaq proven winner 3x finals mvp and 1x league mvp.

And Pippen in no shape or form is better than Wade, Wade is clearly a superior player to Pippen and carried a team to the title as the man.

Pippen made the Bulls successful. Jordan was 1-10 without Pippen in the playoffs.

Bulls lost way more talent then the Cavs did. Not up for any debate, the best comeback you have is Shaq, who would have backed up Luc Longley at best.

Wade carrying the team is a myth. Shaq was the better player against Detroit and Dallas defense was concerned with stopping Shaq. Then Wade had to get the extreme benefit of the refs to win a championship. Pippen's too best chances without Jordan ended in unfavorable officiating for his team.

da ThRONe
02-21-2012, 08:25 PM
I don't understand why greatness is so linked to titles in a team sport. As great as MJ was 0 titles without Pippen. Then some people already are trying to discredit LeBron if he wins a title with Wade. I never hear anybody taking anything away from Kobe for winning 3 with Shaq.

da ThRONe
02-21-2012, 08:29 PM
He needs to win 6-7 champ's and avg 25 ppg in the finals, to be in conversation for the GOAT. Why should he win less than MJ and be GOAT? :facepalm:

Because it's a team sport. Titles aren't decided by one person are else Jordan would have 8 or 9 rings.

Bishnoff
02-21-2012, 08:40 PM
Too early to tell.

He needs to start winning rings and getting multiple MVP awards if he wants to be considered Top 5.

barreleffact
02-21-2012, 09:31 PM
Anyone who said he has potential to be number one should shoot himself. Yes, MJ didn't win until 28 (his 8th season). News flash, LBJ is already past his 8th season and if he doesnt win with this talent (talent MJ never had) there is definitely no comparison. Plus, MJ never played so piss poorly when it mattered. He shot 50% in game winning situations. He never failed to deliver by shying away. He never quit. He had this combination of skills, accolades, and titles that were inconceivable by most. MJ has both many MVPs (shouldve been more) and a DPOY. He was just sick.

Any other place past 2 is debatable, but personally I do not ever see him topping the top 6. I do not see him getting past Kobe either, but I think it's possible. Players beyond his realm: MJ, Kareem, Magic, Duncan, Bird, Russel. Kobe had to win 5 rings to pass Duncan, and even that is debatable.

Chronz
02-22-2012, 12:20 AM
Then how the hell did the Heat only win 58 games last year with 3 stars on it?

And the 2nd best player on the 2007 Mavs was Josh Howard and Dirk won 67 games.

So your saying the Cavs were better than the Heat?

Chronz
02-22-2012, 12:22 AM
Cavs lost Lebron, Shaq, Delonte, Big Z, Jamario Moon and their coach in Mike Brown as well as Varajeo for the year. If it was just Lebron and the rest of the cast stayed intact with no additions or substractions you would have a valid point.

If the players you named would have ever mattered, you would have a point.

But the reality is those Cavs were winning without those guys so long as 1 player was around. The team did better without Shaq most games.

They gained Antawn Jamison (their best player outside of Bron supposably) for a FULL YEAR. They upgraded their coach and added Sessions.

Chronz
02-22-2012, 12:45 AM
Because so far in his career, he has failed so miserably to win a championship. Twice lost in the finals (most notably last yr he had one putrid performance in the 4th qtr after another), and failed to lead his team to the finals in back-to-back League MVP Seasons with best regular season record in the NBA both seasons.

I would LOVE to see your top 10 list. The fact that he made it to the Finals with the Cavs is a great accomplishment given his talent. So if your holding that against him, your going to have alot of explaining to do with your list.

Chronz
02-22-2012, 12:48 AM
When Hakeem lost in the finals in '86, he wasn't even the main guy, it was Ralph Sampson.
Based on what? Even if your right, that only hurts Hakeem. According to you he played alongside someone better than him. Imagine if Bron made it to the Finals with the Cavs alongside someone better than him.


It became Hakeem's team in the late 80 early 90s. And Rockets didn't have homecourt advantage in the finals either. And they lost to the legendary Boston Celtics in the NBA finals, a Celtics team that was pissed from losing in the finals to the Lakers in the previous Finals in '85.
Pissed off


Won't hold the 07 sweep to San Antonio against LeBron because he was very very young and that Cavs team had no business being in the finals at that time (we all credit LeBron for taking that team to the finals). But last yr's finals as "the best player in the game" and choking every game in the 4th qtr, and Wade basically outperforming him that series was devastating to his legacy. Remember, the Heat had homecourt advantage in the finals and still lost to the Mavs.

Devastating? Hardly, if an impressive run to the Finals constitutes a damning mark against him, then your going to see alot of HOF'ers with damning marks. Kobe included and Im pretty sure you have him in your top 10.

KB-Pau-DH2012
02-22-2012, 12:50 AM
I would LOVE to see your top 10 list. The fact that he made it to the Finals with the Cavs is a great accomplishment given his talent. So if your holding that against him, your going to have alot of explaining to do with your list.

I commend him for 2007 Finals appearance. But last yr's finals he was a complete no-show.

Sure, I'll give you my top 10 list:

1. Michael Jordan
2. Magic Johnson
3. Kareem Abdul-Jabbar
4. Bill Russell
5. Wilt Chamberlain
6. Larry Bird
7. Shaquille O'Neal
8. Tim Duncan/Kobe Bryant
9. Kobe Bryant/Tim Duncan
10. Hakeem Olajuwon

Chronz
02-22-2012, 12:50 AM
Dont be naive ppl..when I say ppl I mean arrogant Heat fans who watch nothing but their own team and who overreact at every single lob pass.

MJ's legacy CANNOT be topped. They tried to with Lebron when they realized that all the baby Jordans (Kobe, AI, Tmac, VInce, mostly Kobe, etc) had too many flaws. Not in their game but in their legacy compared to Jordan's.
They might have lied about a few things with Jordan to make his legacy better, but his legacy is PERFECT. Drafted and finished by same team. Numbers, milestones, Longevity, NIKE Jordan brand, CHampionships, Dominance/smarts/athleticism at the time, IMAGE, Chicago, gamewinners, final shot on gamewinner, go through hardships - succeeding, etc ,etc

You cannot top it unless you plan it from the beginning, like they did with Lebron in high school with all the magazines, they made him their poster boy instantly. BUT look what happened..Ditched Cleveland to team with 2 other superstars, has the image of an immature "bad guy", has BLOWN IT IN THE CLUTCH, ugly image, etc.

Im not saying I agree with all of that being important I'm just saying theres no shot at him finishing GOAT anymore..too many flaws to overcome now, Jordan was perfect from the start to finish just about..or at least the media got enough ppl to believe that.

Unless James puts up ridiculous numbers like he is now even in his 30s, wins back to back to back championships, more MVPs, and ignites a whole shoe company, and hits gamewinning shots in the playoffs theres no shot...

Only person who can honestly reach a jordan status is Jeremy Lin. But he wont, obviously. Kobe has a sliggght chance, but hes gotta do some crazy things to do so..hes not as dominant as Jordan was.

Id say top 8 is his ceiling. I think he'll finish top 25 forsure, and end up at 10th about. Call me a hater if you want.

Good post

2-0-Niner
02-22-2012, 12:51 AM
Too early to tell, Some freak accident can happen or some sudden drop off to his game. But if He Keeps pace at what he's doing and Wins a few championships. Finishes His career 26 6 6...I'd probably Make Him 1b to Jordan being 1a. I still refuse to given anyone number over Jordan.

KB-Pau-DH2012
02-22-2012, 12:52 AM
Sampson was already established. In '86 Finals, young Hakeem just finished his 2nd season in the league.

Chronz my man, you seem like you are reading in detail and every sentence of mine. Stop trying to incessantly defending LeBron and trying to shut down every one of my posts or paragraphs. It's a little annoying. Thanks.

Chronz
02-22-2012, 12:59 AM
I commend him for 2007 Finals appearance. But last yr's finals he was a complete no-show.
Last years playoffs was a better playoff run than most of the players on your list have ever had. That choke in the Finals was no less damning than Tragic Johnsons moments of futility, several of Birds no shows (long before even making the Finals).
Russell I will never understand, Dream was way better than him but focusing on just the guys I get, why does he need to win 3 to top Bird, Dream?



Sampson was already established. In '86 Finals, young Hakeem just finished his 2nd season in the league.
So what made Sampson better? Teams sure didnt play the Rockets like Sampson was the best player.


Chronz my man, you seem like you are reading in detail and every sentence of mine. Stop trying to incessantly defending LeBron and trying to shut down every one of my posts or paragraphs. It's a little annoying. Thanks.

Request Denied

KB-Pau-DH2012
02-22-2012, 01:00 AM
Last years playoffs was a better playoff run than most of the players on your list have ever had. That choke in the Finals was no less damning than Tragic Johnsons moments of futility, several of Birds no shows (long before even making the Finals).
Russell I will never understand, Dream was way better than him but focusing on just the guys I get, why does he need to win 3 to top Bird, Dream?

Before "Tragic Johnson" happened, the man already won 2 titles and 2 finals mvps in his first 3 yrs in the league before that happened in '84.

KB-Pau-DH2012
02-22-2012, 01:01 AM
Considered.... Denied

:laugh2: Ok, this made me laugh, so I shall respect it.

Chronz
02-22-2012, 01:03 AM
Before "Tragic Johnson" happened, the man already won 2 titles and 2 finals mvps in his first 3 yrs in the league before that happened in '84.
Which shows what exactly?

KB-Pau-DH2012
02-22-2012, 01:05 AM
Which shows what exactly?

That he had already reached the mountaintop and proved he could lead a team to a championship before the Celtics handed him his most excruciating defeat.

Chronz
02-22-2012, 01:12 AM
That he had already reached the mountaintop and proved he could lead a team to a championship before the Celtics handed him his most excruciating defeat.
So he proved he could lead them to a title and proved he could steer them away just as easily. Not seeing what your point is, isnt the fact that he won them young and them cost his team as he was suppose to be improving a bad thing? Also arent we operating under the assumption that Bron proves he can win a chip as well?


What Im asking is why does he need 3 (your claim) to get passed Bird/Dream. You said it was because of that choke job in the Finals, but Bird choked long before even making the Finals.

As for Magic, Celtics, Rockets both chokes had his fingerprints on it. Brons Finals run last year is no more damning than those 2 situations.

JWP83
02-22-2012, 01:16 AM
he's the most talented player in NBA history, so the sky is the limit... however, whether he achieves all of the goals is a whole other issue.

He could very well be Number 1! remember mj didnt win his first title till the age of 28. Bron in 27
Number1 when its all over

Vincent33
02-22-2012, 01:23 AM
Somewhere between eleventy and threeve.

Bos_Sports4Life
02-22-2012, 03:36 AM
No chance at top 8..

MJ, Russell, Kareem, Bird, Magic, Kobe, Hakeem, Shaq, Duncan ect are all guys he won't pass...

Knicks21
02-22-2012, 03:48 AM
When its all said and done, I'm failing to see why people cannot rank him number one.... Spite. 1 is the highest he can be ranked.

C-Style
02-22-2012, 04:13 AM
^ because its been 8 years and he already proved he's not better than Jordan

lakersfan01
02-22-2012, 04:21 AM
As high as #1 if he goes on to win 7 championships. I think he's gonna win his 1st ring this year and he's gonna win more. If he doesn't wind up winning any, which seems very unlikely, then down there with the guys like Patrick Ewing that never won a ring.

JordansBulls
02-22-2012, 10:01 AM
Pippen made the Bulls successful. Jordan was 1-10 without Pippen in the playoffs.

Bulls lost way more talent then the Cavs did. Not up for any debate, the best comeback you have is Shaq, who would have backed up Luc Longley at best.

Wade carrying the team is a myth. Shaq was the better player against Detroit and Dallas defense was concerned with stopping Shaq. Then Wade had to get the extreme benefit of the refs to win a championship. Pippen's too best chances without Jordan ended in unfavorable officiating for his team.

Pippen didn't do anything to make the Bulls successfull he came in as a role player on that team. Was coming off the bench and averaged 8 ppg and 4 rpg.

MJ led the Bulls every year in PER, Win Shares, WS/PER 48 minutes and PPG and the league. Pippen in 1994 didn't even lead the Bulls in win shares in the playoffs. In fact he was 3rd.



Usually it's the youngins that bring up the "he's 1-9 without Pippen" argument because it throws away all context. MJ came to a losing franchise...not just a losing team...a losing franchise that had never won anything. The owner didn't know how to win. The GM (who left a year or two later) didn't know how to win. The coach (Kevin Loughery -- one of 3 coaches MJ had in his first 3 seasons) didn't know how to win, the fans (who averaged about 5,000 at the Stadium) didn't know how to win and the players (only one of whom had ever won a championship -- Sam Vincent, as a bench warmer on the 86 Celtics) didn't know how to win.

Tough to turn a whole ORGANIZATION around. Jordan came in producing from the start. People always bring up that Bird won 61 games his first season. That's great but although the C's had a losing record the year prior, they weren't a losing franchise. Auerbach knew what he was doing. The coaching staff knew what they were doing. And the players knew what they were doing. A little known fact -- Jordan's rookie year >> Bird's rookie year.

LB 21.3 pts, 4.5 asts, 10.4 rebs, 1.7 stls, 0.6 blks on 47 fg%
MJ 28.2 pts, 5.9 asts, 6.5 rebs, 2.4 stls, 0.8 blks on 52 fg%

Jordan produced more by a wide margin. He didn't win his first year because the ORGANIZATION wasn't ready yet.

That's a microcosm for his first few years. All this "he's 1-9 without Pippen" means nothing when he was holding it down for years as the only weapon the Bulls had offensively and defensively. How do you think Pippen and Grant had so much time to develop? He went out there and took his lumps every night even though he was severely out manned. No complaints. No threats to the front office that he wanted to be traded. Just business every night.

It took Pippen YEARS to develop into what he became. He had raw talent and work ethic, but he was soft as tissue paper in the beginning. That's why Detroit and New York made a concerted effort to attack him physically. Every year from 1988 through 1993, either the Pistons or the Knicks would come after what they thought was the weak link of the Bulls. How did he go from Charmin to steel? And how did he have so much time to develop without facing the burden of "superstar expectations"?

Because of Jordan. Jordan stood up for him against the Pistons and the Knicks. Jordan took the weight of expectations every night allowing Pippen and Grant to slide out the side door to avoid the crush of media. Jordan kept that team afloat as Scottie went from being soft to inconsistent to more consistent to probably the most versatile player in the league. If Pippen played his first few years somewhere else, he doesn't become the same player. Pippen had the talent and the work ethic, but Jordan gave him that toughness that helped the Bulls win championships.

Let's reverse the roles. Imagine if Pippen was drafted to the Bulls in 1984 and Jordan wasn't drafted until 1987. How many winning seasons would Pippen have without Jordan? Remember, he's playing against Bird's Celtics, Magic's Lakers, Isiah's Pistons, etc. How many playoff games do they win? Let's add in the fact that Pippen would have had to deal with superstar expectations (something he struggled with as late as 1994 -- remember the sit-down incident?). Imagine soft, fragile Pippen dealing with loss after loss after loss and having to explain himself to the Chicago media after every failure. Not the 1994 All-World Pippen...I'm talking about the first few years version of Pippen. He would have folded like an armchair. By the time Jordan arrives in 1987, Pippen is on his way out either by his own desires or the team's.

By the time Pippen took over the team in 1994, he had already been through his rites of passage. Finally pushed the Pistons, Knicks, Sixers, etc back. Won 3 titles. Been to the Dream Team. That Bulls team had everyone back and added Kukoc (who btw, won game 3 against New York on a last second shot despite Pippen's "distraction". Who knows what would have happened had that game gone to overtime.) They had, for the most part, grown up together for years.

What they did was amazing but DIFFERENT than what was accomplished before. It's like MJ started a company from scratch and built it into an empire. The company is flushed with cash and has a great worldwide reputation. Jordan the CEO steps down and Pippen (his assistant) takes over and keeps the business afloat until MJ un-retires. This is a great accomplishment, but IT'S NOT THE SAME AS STARTING THE BUSINESS FROM SCRATCH. Pippen had cash, reputation, a proven "system" and he retained all the financial advisors that MJ hired to keep the business afloat. You're telling me that Pippen could have done this from the start? 1987 Pippen could have built this empire? Or did he learn the ropes from Jordan?

That's what we mean when we say Jordan helped Scott Pippen become SCOTTIE PIPPEN.

No more "Jordan was 1-9 without Pippen". It's complete Bull*****.

Jordan was playing in the 80's against stacked and loaded teams in the East. When MJ went to the Bulls the Bulls had the 2nd worst record in the league before he came. He went to an organization that was known for losing and known for not having many fans.
MJ took the team from the bottom to the top and built a dynasty.

When Pippen got the Bulls it was known as a winning franchise already and everyone on the team was in there primes.

Also when Pippen led the Bulls in 1994 the Hawks with no star player was the #1 seed.
Not to mention that Pippen was 3rd on the team in Win Shares in the playoffs in 1994 and was 3rd behind Grant in 1992 and 1993.

If you want to know, Bulls were the #1 seed in 1998 thru the first 35 games that Pippen missed during the season and this with a 35 year old leading the team.


Pippen was a 8 ppg and 4 rpg player a game as a rookie including coming off the bench and who finished 9th on the team in Win Shares PER 48 minutes, 7th in Win Shares and 7th in PER in 1988.




In 1990 the Bulls without Pippen won game 4 on the road against Barkley's Sixers in a blowout despite Philly having a higher SRS rating than the Bulls that year.
In 1997 the Bulls won game 5 of the ECF with Pippen playing 7 minutes.

Point is is that Jordan could win without Pippen, but you aren't beating all time great teams like the '86 Celtics or '87 Celtics without having a decent cast around you.


Bulls would probably still have lost those series from 1985-1987 even if you added a prime Pippen to those teams.

ghettosean
02-22-2012, 12:13 PM
Pippen didn't do anything to make the Bulls successfull he came in as a role player on that team. Was coming off the bench and averaged 8 ppg and 4 rpg.

MJ led the Bulls every year in PER, Win Shares, WS/PER 48 minutes and PPG and the league. Pippen in 1994 didn't even lead the Bulls in win shares in the playoffs. In fact he was 3rd.



Usually it's the youngins that bring up the "he's 1-9 without Pippen" argument because it throws away all context. MJ came to a losing franchise...not just a losing team...a losing franchise that had never won anything. The owner didn't know how to win. The GM (who left a year or two later) didn't know how to win. The coach (Kevin Loughery -- one of 3 coaches MJ had in his first 3 seasons) didn't know how to win, the fans (who averaged about 5,000 at the Stadium) didn't know how to win and the players (only one of whom had ever won a championship -- Sam Vincent, as a bench warmer on the 86 Celtics) didn't know how to win.

Tough to turn a whole ORGANIZATION around. Jordan came in producing from the start. People always bring up that Bird won 61 games his first season. That's great but although the C's had a losing record the year prior, they weren't a losing franchise. Auerbach knew what he was doing. The coaching staff knew what they were doing. And the players knew what they were doing. A little known fact -- Jordan's rookie year >> Bird's rookie year.

LB 21.3 pts, 4.5 asts, 10.4 rebs, 1.7 stls, 0.6 blks on 47 fg%
MJ 28.2 pts, 5.9 asts, 6.5 rebs, 2.4 stls, 0.8 blks on 52 fg%

Jordan produced more by a wide margin. He didn't win his first year because the ORGANIZATION wasn't ready yet.

That's a microcosm for his first few years. All this "he's 1-9 without Pippen" means nothing when he was holding it down for years as the only weapon the Bulls had offensively and defensively. How do you think Pippen and Grant had so much time to develop? He went out there and took his lumps every night even though he was severely out manned. No complaints. No threats to the front office that he wanted to be traded. Just business every night.

It took Pippen YEARS to develop into what he became. He had raw talent and work ethic, but he was soft as tissue paper in the beginning. That's why Detroit and New York made a concerted effort to attack him physically. Every year from 1988 through 1993, either the Pistons or the Knicks would come after what they thought was the weak link of the Bulls. How did he go from Charmin to steel? And how did he have so much time to develop without facing the burden of "superstar expectations"?

Because of Jordan. Jordan stood up for him against the Pistons and the Knicks. Jordan took the weight of expectations every night allowing Pippen and Grant to slide out the side door to avoid the crush of media. Jordan kept that team afloat as Scottie went from being soft to inconsistent to more consistent to probably the most versatile player in the league. If Pippen played his first few years somewhere else, he doesn't become the same player. Pippen had the talent and the work ethic, but Jordan gave him that toughness that helped the Bulls win championships.

Let's reverse the roles. Imagine if Pippen was drafted to the Bulls in 1984 and Jordan wasn't drafted until 1987. How many winning seasons would Pippen have without Jordan? Remember, he's playing against Bird's Celtics, Magic's Lakers, Isiah's Pistons, etc. How many playoff games do they win? Let's add in the fact that Pippen would have had to deal with superstar expectations (something he struggled with as late as 1994 -- remember the sit-down incident?). Imagine soft, fragile Pippen dealing with loss after loss after loss and having to explain himself to the Chicago media after every failure. Not the 1994 All-World Pippen...I'm talking about the first few years version of Pippen. He would have folded like an armchair. By the time Jordan arrives in 1987, Pippen is on his way out either by his own desires or the team's.

By the time Pippen took over the team in 1994, he had already been through his rites of passage. Finally pushed the Pistons, Knicks, Sixers, etc back. Won 3 titles. Been to the Dream Team. That Bulls team had everyone back and added Kukoc (who btw, won game 3 against New York on a last second shot despite Pippen's "distraction". Who knows what would have happened had that game gone to overtime.) They had, for the most part, grown up together for years.

What they did was amazing but DIFFERENT than what was accomplished before. It's like MJ started a company from scratch and built it into an empire. The company is flushed with cash and has a great worldwide reputation. Jordan the CEO steps down and Pippen (his assistant) takes over and keeps the business afloat until MJ un-retires. This is a great accomplishment, but IT'S NOT THE SAME AS STARTING THE BUSINESS FROM SCRATCH. Pippen had cash, reputation, a proven "system" and he retained all the financial advisors that MJ hired to keep the business afloat. You're telling me that Pippen could have done this from the start? 1987 Pippen could have built this empire? Or did he learn the ropes from Jordan?

That's what we mean when we say Jordan helped Scott Pippen become SCOTTIE PIPPEN.

No more "Jordan was 1-9 without Pippen". It's complete Bull*****.

Jordan was playing in the 80's against stacked and loaded teams in the East. When MJ went to the Bulls the Bulls had the 2nd worst record in the league before he came. He went to an organization that was known for losing and known for not having many fans.
MJ took the team from the bottom to the top and built a dynasty.

When Pippen got the Bulls it was known as a winning franchise already and everyone on the team was in there primes.

Also when Pippen led the Bulls in 1994 the Hawks with no star player was the #1 seed.
Not to mention that Pippen was 3rd on the team in Win Shares in the playoffs in 1994 and was 3rd behind Grant in 1992 and 1993.

If you want to know, Bulls were the #1 seed in 1998 thru the first 35 games that Pippen missed during the season and this with a 35 year old leading the team.


Pippen was a 8 ppg and 4 rpg player a game as a rookie including coming off the bench and who finished 9th on the team in Win Shares PER 48 minutes, 7th in Win Shares and 7th in PER in 1988.




In 1990 the Bulls without Pippen won game 4 on the road against Barkley's Sixers in a blowout despite Philly having a higher SRS rating than the Bulls that year.
In 1997 the Bulls won game 5 of the ECF with Pippen playing 7 minutes.

Point is is that Jordan could win without Pippen, but you aren't beating all time great teams like the '86 Celtics or '87 Celtics without having a decent cast around you.


Bulls would probably still have lost those series from 1985-1987 even if you added a prime Pippen to those teams.

:clap:

I love reading your posts even long novels like this one... I was there during the MJ era too and I hate the LBJ comparisons as far as the Cavs and the Bulls it drives me nuts and also people saying there wasn't much competion at that time and other ********. Truth of the matter is that the game was a lot harder in that era than it is now.

You won't see any films of MJ flopping and then winking at the camera (in fact you won't see any footage of anyone doing that at all in that era) BECAUSE IT NEVER EXISTED THEN...

I've been responding to posts of people who think LBJ still has the potential to be the greatest of all time (I'm talking this week) and he did if he brought the Cavs up from nothing like MJ did with the Bulls but that ship has sailed.... Along with his finals loses with the Cavs and with a stacked Miami Heat team.

CubbySwag313
02-22-2012, 12:38 PM
Regardless of how many rings lebron gets he still will be no more than 5th all time and second to wade......yes i said second to wade. His sissy *** took the easy way out by going to miami and becoming wades *****. Without wade and bosh he wont win anything. If miami is going to win any titles it will all rely on wade. The team goes as wade goes. Lebron will get you wins during the regualr season, but wade will get you the titles in the playoffs. Wade is has been smart with this whole situation from day one.....wade knows once they win, he will get the credit and james will get the critics like always. The argument will never go away about james not able to do it without wade. Everyone knows it. So you james fans can argue all you want, but in the end you know what the truth is.

justinnum1
02-22-2012, 12:45 PM
:yawn: Nice to see everyone getting there anger out in this thread

ghettosean
02-22-2012, 12:51 PM
Regardless of how many rings lebron gets he still will be no more than 5th all time and second to wade......yes i said second to wade. His sissy *** took the easy way out by going to miami and becoming wades *****. Without wade and bosh he wont win anything. If miami is going to win any titles it will all rely on wade. The team goes as wade goes. Lebron will get you wins during the regualr season, but wade will get you the titles in the playoffs. Wade is has been smart with this whole situation from day one.....wade knows once they win, he will get the credit and james will get the critics like always. The argument will never go away about james not able to do it without wade. Everyone knows it. So you james fans can argue all you want, but in the end you know what the truth is.
You are a smart man and Wade > LBJ though people will say look at the numbers which again drives me nuts but the fact is Wade did it as the man on his team and LBJ needs to do this at least once to even be in the conversation with Wade (that's my opinion). Riding to a championship on Wades back is not good enough he's got to get it done on his own as the main piece.

I think he has finally realised this and I'm guessing that's why he's speculating on leaving Miami in a few years and going back to Clevland.

ghettosean
02-22-2012, 12:53 PM
:yawn: Nice to see everyone getting there anger out in this thread
Glad to see your getting your getting at least a 1 liner in there it's usually just a facepalm or a smiley face ;)

thapastime7
02-22-2012, 01:10 PM
i think hell be the best sidekick of all time and rank alittle above scottie pippen lmao

CubbySwag313
02-22-2012, 06:14 PM
You are a smart man and Wade > LBJ though people will say look at the numbers which again drives me nuts but the fact is Wade did it as the man on his team and LBJ needs to do this at least once to even be in the conversation with Wade (that's my opinion). Riding to a championship on Wades back is not good enough he's got to get it done on his own as the main piece.

I think he has finally realised this and I'm guessing that's why he's speculating on leaving Miami in a few years and going back to Clevland.


Thanks man.....Its the same old tired story on this site. Is Lebron a great player...yes....Will Lebron when a title, eventually yes. Would it be because of Wade...HELL YES! I just dont understand how people cant see this. This is why the man left the Cavs...he couldnt carry a team on his own reagrdless of who they put around him. He couldnt take the pressure and failed every chance he had. Regardless of what anyone says, he will always be second to wade and second on the team..... with wade getting full credit.

Hawkeye15
02-22-2012, 06:17 PM
You can't be the #2 on a team where you are clearly the better player. Just saying.

CHANGO
02-22-2012, 06:31 PM
Thanks man.....Its the same old tired story on this site. Is Lebron a great player...yes....Will Lebron when a title, eventually yes. Would it be because of Wade...HELL YES! I just dont understand how people cant see this. This is why the man left the Cavs...he couldnt carry a team on his own reagrdless of who they put around him. He couldnt take the pressure and failed every chance he had. Regardless of what anyone says, he will always be second to wade and second on the team..... with wade getting full credit.

:laugh:

Missing56&33
02-22-2012, 06:33 PM
7-12 sounds about right.

Vincent
02-22-2012, 06:37 PM
History is written by the victorious.

If he wins multiple championships, the manor in which they are won will be the determinate of his legacy.

Talent wise, he has every tool and every attribute.

The rest of the league just hopes that he doesn't have the mentality to match it until his physical skills fade away.

nycsports2
02-22-2012, 06:53 PM
top 10

CubbySwag313
02-22-2012, 07:02 PM
You can't be the #2 on a team where you are clearly the better player. Just saying.



I honestly think Wade is #1 and James is #2....Especially down the stretch in a close game....

SportsFanatic10
02-22-2012, 07:05 PM
the thread says the HIGHEST he can be ranked. anyone saying less then top 5 is ridiculous. not saying it will happen, but with his amazing talent and a legit shot at the title for the next 4 years if he stays in miami i think he'll be ranked pretty high. it also looks like he'll grab his 3rd mvp this season as well, just saying.

HuRRiCaNeS324
02-22-2012, 07:08 PM
I think hes definitely in the top 10 even if he only wins 1 ring.

justinnum1
02-22-2012, 07:11 PM
To soon...

Not trying to go off topic or anything, but this is more for the older posters(30+) what was it like the year before jordan won his first ring, what was the word on him, what did people think about him...He entered the league the year i was born...

DerekCzajkowski
02-22-2012, 08:40 PM
Hes got no rings right now so he barely cracks top 25...if he gets two rings ill put him in the top 10...u hafta remember there were a lot of good players before him

Cfrey
02-22-2012, 08:41 PM
how can he already top his number 1 ranking of all time?

ghettosean
02-22-2012, 10:22 PM
You can't be the #2 on a team where you are clearly the better player. Just saying.
I think D-Wade is pound for pound the best basketball player in the world... I always let people know I'm a Lebron hater (this was when he joined Miami with all the hoopla) but I was never as big on Lebron as I was D-Wade throughout there careers. They played the same amount of time in the league and D-Wade has a ring but aside from that when I watch them on the same team face there biggest adversary in the playoffs last year in the Dallas Mavericks Lebron didn't look like the best player on the team to me.

Lebron is on the court with a finals MVP and D-Wade is on the court with Lebron if you get my drift. It will be debated but D-Wade is the best player on that team in my opinion.

da ThRONe
02-23-2012, 12:26 AM
I think D-Wade is pound for pound the best basketball player in the world... I always let people know I'm a Lebron hater (this was when he joined Miami with all the hoopla) but I was never as big on Lebron as I was D-Wade throughout there careers. They played the same amount of time in the league and D-Wade has a ring but aside from that when I watch them on the same team face there biggest adversary in the playoffs last year in the Dallas Mavericks Lebron didn't look like the best player on the team to me.

Lebron is on the court with a finals MVP and D-Wade is on the court with Lebron if you get my drift. It will be debated but D-Wade is the best player on that team in my opinion.

So what about when D Wade struggled against Chicago and LeBron carried the team to the Finals. You can't just cherry pick which situations you want to use to support your dislike for LeBron.

AddiX
02-23-2012, 12:29 AM
Funny how quickly everyone forgot about the finals, you guys want to put a guy in the top 10 ever who multiple times has completely shut down when the biggest spot light is on him.

As gifted as he is, it's wades ball when it counts. And as many wins as he gathers in his career, in the finals he became a role-player.

First game this year dude is giving the ball to god damn Norris Cole to bail his butt out. SMH, top 10 ever? Please....