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View Full Version : What Active Players Make Top 20?



Venomous88
02-18-2012, 10:34 PM
Someone ask this question in another forum and I was wondering what everyone here thought. Here was my answer:


When judging players placement in the all-time greatest, I try not confused comparisons between player's actual skills. If we took Jerry West out of his era and placed him in today's, players like Jamal Crawford would probably crush him. We have to take a combination of:

1. How much the player dominated his respective era (stats, accolades, wins)
2. How the player's career stands up to others in his era
3. How the player's career holds against others who played in a different eras.

The tricky part comes when you try to intersect these players of era and avoid a hierarchy when it comes to different eras. However, players pre-70s were not as skilled as the 90s, but that's because the game of basketball was way different back then. We can say that if you took a player with the mental capacity of Jerry West in today's game, he could drive himself just to be as dominating and great as he was in his day. Looking at the list below, I tried to be as objective as possible, but that's still unavoidable. However, some players who are ranked lower than others may be greater players then the others that made above them individually, but it doesn't matter if the team doesn't win. Monta Ellis will continue to be overlooked as an all-star until GS starts to win even though he's arguably the 3rd best SG in the league. My list is based on the greatest players who played the game of basketball as it's supposed to play, a team sport, leading their team to wins while dominating at the same time. However, I do take into consideration the team that those players were on and the players who played alongside them.

My top 20 list including active players

1. Michael Jordan
2. Kareem Abdul-Jabbar
3. Wilt Chamberlain
4. Bill Russell
5. Kobe Bryant
6. Magic Johnson
7. Larry Bird
8. Tim Duncan
9. Shaquille O'Neal
10. Hakeem Olajuwon
11. Oscar Robertson
12. Julius Erving
13. Jerry West
14. Karl Malone
15. Bob Cousy
16. David Robinson
17. Isiah Thomas
18. Moses Malone
19. Kevin Garnett
20. George Mikan

Active Players who have cracked the Top 20:

Kobe Bryant
Tim Duncan
Kevin Garnett

Players who have the most potential to crack the top 20 in order:

LeBron James: He just needs one ring

Dirk Nowitzki: If he has one more ring. With just one more finals appearance, he could even be argued to take Garnett or Mikan's spot

Dwyane Wade: Needs one ring and FMVP; or two more rings and solid performances

Kevin Durant: Stay consistent with his exceptional numbers, break records, Finals appearance and a ring

Jason Kidd: Needs another ring, but is unlikely with this looking like it's going to be his last season

Chris Paul: If he brings his numbers back up to his career average and depending on the development of Blake Griffin, he could still make a case for the top 20 if he is able to make a Finals appearance or win a ring.

Dwight Howard: Since there is still a possibility he could go to the Mavs or Lakers, he still has a chance to win

Derrick Rose: He's already a MVP and only 23. Not to mention he's on a contender and could make a finals appearance and win a ring.

alexander_37
02-18-2012, 10:36 PM
So many things wrong with this post ....

xxplayerxx23
02-18-2012, 10:43 PM
Kobe, and duncan yeah Idk about garnett, Its close

jp611
02-18-2012, 10:49 PM
Garnett in top 20 and no Pippen? Yeah... No

CudiOnMyiPod
02-18-2012, 10:53 PM
Kobe, Duncan and Dirk.

Dirk is one of very few players who can say he has led his team to a championship without any other all stars on his team.

Kidd was good but he was 37, Chandler was a dominant defender but not an All Star, Terry was one of the most clutch players in the NBA but was not that great quarters 1-3.

Keep in mind that he beat a trio of LeBron, Wade and Bosh.

He has 10+ All Star selections and All NBA Teams.

He will most likely be top 10 all time in scoring, possibly top 5.


People give Garnett the nod for his all around dominance but he could never win as the man. He needed two other hall of famers and a future top 20 player to win.


Dirk is a top 20 player of all time and if people disagree, they certainly can't after his career.

Cfrey
02-18-2012, 11:01 PM
lebron is already a top 20 player of all time

CudiOnMyiPod
02-18-2012, 11:05 PM
lebron is already a top 20 player of all time

lol

Bruno
02-18-2012, 11:08 PM
kobe-TD-KG.

that's it as of today. several players have the potential to crack top 20 before they retire.

Venomous88
02-18-2012, 11:14 PM
Kobe, Duncan and Dirk.

Dirk is one of very few players who can say he has led his team to a championship without any other all stars on his team.

Kidd was good but he was 37, Chandler was a dominant defender but not an All Star, Terry was one of the most clutch players in the NBA but was not that great quarters 1-3.

Keep in mind that he beat a trio of LeBron, Wade and Bosh.

He has 10+ All Star selections and All NBA Teams.

He will most likely be top 10 all time in scoring, possibly top 5.


People give Garnett the nod for his all around dominance but he could never win as the man. He needed two other hall of famers and a future top 20 player to win.


Dirk is a top 20 player of all time and if people disagree, they certainly can't after his career.I can respect that, but I still have Garnett above him for the reasons you said and if you remember that 08 team, he was the reason Pierce and Allen were able to excel the way they did. He was the regular season MVP for that team, and you could see the impact he made on the team when his injury occurred the 08-09 season. Celtics fans along with many agree that if we wasn't injured, the Celtics would have repeated against the Lakers easily.

You can't discredit how deep and balanced the Mavs team were this past year. Kidd had a resurgence throughout the playoffs, Marion, a former all-star played solid, and Terry, one of the greatest 6th man of all time, showed up in the clutch. Dirk definitely led the team to the ring, but he continues to get more credit because he had a underrated cast who beat the Big 3 in their first year.

CudiOnMyiPod
02-18-2012, 11:23 PM
I can respect that, but I still have Garnett above him for the reasons you said and if you remember that 08 team, he was the reason Pierce and Allen were able to excel the way they did. He was the regular season MVP for that team, and you could see the impact he made on the team when his injury occurred the 08-09 season. Celtics fans along with many agree that if we wasn't injured, the Celtics would have repeated against the Lakers easily.

You can't discredit how deep and balanced the Mavs team were this past year. Kidd had a resurgence throughout the playoffs, Marion, a former all-star played solid, and Terry, one of the greatest 6th man of all time, showed up in the clutch. Dirk definitely led the team to the ring, but he continues to get more credit because he had a underrated cast who beat the Big 3 in their first year.

If KG had won with the T'Wolves, he would without a doubt be ahead of Dirk but in my opinion Dirk was the better player. It's close.

ManRam
02-18-2012, 11:34 PM
KG, Duncan and Kobe are no-brainers.

i still like KG over dirk, but i'd never argue too heavily with anyone who disagrees. kg's all-around game, in his prime, was unreal. dirk is close to cracking my top 20. i haven't made a list in a while, so IDK.

lebron is in my top 20 already...ring or not. if he keeps losing now that he's in miami, i might change my opinion, but i can't blast him too much for not winning in cleveland. i'm not sure a single player in the history of the game could have done more than he did with those teams...besides MJ (who never had to do it anyways). he's been the best player, hands down, in the nba for the past 4 or so seasons. not many players can say that, ever.

xxplayerxx23
02-18-2012, 11:46 PM
True^ I think kobe might of won one in cleveland.

Cfrey
02-18-2012, 11:48 PM
lol

is it funny that its actually true?? yeah its interesting that a due without a ring and the scrutiny he gets would actually be in the top 20.. but he is

ManRam
02-18-2012, 11:50 PM
True^ I think kobe might of won one in cleveland.

i don't. but who knows. kobe had some really awful team years when he had nothing around him...


if you take team success out of it, i think he's a top 15 player of all time already...maybe even higher. a lot of that has been his fault, a lot of it hasn't. some seasons in cleveland he had some of the greatest playoff performances ever, but the team just couldn't pull out the victories. then there was his last year in cleveland, and the Finals last year (don't forget he was unimaginably great before the finals last year)

Slug3
02-18-2012, 11:54 PM
Active I got Kobe and Timmy.

Wade has to do some special things these next few years to get there. Lebron stats wise will be top 20 or maybe even top 10 when he is done playing. But he is going to need maybe 2+ rings as well. Outside of these few I don't really know if anyone else can crack the top 20 ever.

ManRam
02-18-2012, 11:56 PM
i think 2-3 rings gets lebron into the GOAT discussion :hide: if he gets 4-5 it's game over IMO. not sure i can put him over jordan, but who knows. he's a talent unlike anything the league has ever seen. once/if he convinces the world he's "clutch", there are no CHINKS in his armor.

kingsdelez24
02-18-2012, 11:58 PM
Mike bibby, jeremy lin, to name a few...
But in all seriousness, I think dirk should make it

Chronz
02-19-2012, 12:04 AM
This sounds like a great topic, I just can't take the OP seriously. Your cred was shot the moment you compared Jerry vs JC.

Ill just ignore that one

mychisports
02-19-2012, 12:10 AM
I don't think Garnett can be in that group. Too many guys that are better than him not on that list.

ManRam
02-19-2012, 12:19 AM
Jason Kidd: Needs another ring, but is unlikely with this looking like it's going to be his last season


see this is my problem with "rings".


does jason kidd winning another ring as a 38 year old playing horrific offense, being a 5th option whenever he's on the court...playing less than 28 minutes a game, really take him to another level?

hell NO! if the mavs win another ring, he'll be a part of the equation, but a small part...and jumping him from the 20s-30s to the teens because of it is foolish. he's a fraction of what he ever was, so what he does now really means nothing to me. i couldn't care less if he wins another ring at this stage of his career. i might bump him up a slot or two...but that's it.

rings matter, just not this much. damn...

he's been awful this year...why would him winning a ring playing such terrible basketball make his career better? it doesn't. period. unless he's nailing game-winners left and right, and doing better than 5-5-5, on 32% shooting, his standing is not changing in my eyes

xxplayerxx23
02-19-2012, 12:20 AM
i think 2-3 rings gets lebron into the GOAT discussion :hide: if he gets 4-5 it's game over IMO. not sure i can put him over jordan, but who knows. he's a talent unlike anything the league has ever seen. once/if he convinces the world he's "clutch", there are no CHINKS in his armor.

I dont disagree, He should get 2-3 rings, 4-5 is a stretch. if he gets 5 i think we can start talking him over kobe and jordan. He has the talent of the GOAT there is no doubt about that, all he is missing is the killer instinct.

Hellcrooner
02-19-2012, 12:22 AM
kobe and Td have already.


kg has missed on it ( barely)

Dirk has a shot if he wins MORE rings.


the youngsters? ( lebron/durant/howard/ rose etc etc) their book is on the writing yet and not een near the final chapter so who knows.


the rest? well you never know , maybe joe johnson leads the hawks to a threepeat or Pau gets the wolves to a ring :p wouldnt hold my breath waiting fur something of the like to happen.

ManRam
02-19-2012, 12:24 AM
I dont disagree, He should get 2-3 rings, 4-5 is a stretch. if he gets 5 i think we can start talking him over kobe and jordan. He has the talent of the GOAT there is no doubt about that, all he is missing is the killer instinct.

he doesn't need to win more than kobe to be better than kobe IMO. he's already proven to be a better all-around player. he just lacks that insane obsession to be the best and win at all costs. and he just hans't won. like i said, kobe never won with a team as bad as lebron had during his cleveland years. kobe would be ringless if he took lebron's career path too...LBJ's been a better individual basketball player in his prime already. he wins 3-4 and he trumps kobe for me.

he's shown the killer instinct numerous times, he's just gotta show it more. statistically, he hits more "clutch" shots than kobe (late in the game, one possession games). kobe has just had the chances to do it more, and though he's missed WAY more, he's made a few that you just can't forget. that's why he's in the top 12, and lebron isn't.

i can only imagine what lebron would do with a prime shaq. i could only imagine what lebron would do with the current laker team honestly. if he took those cavs teams to the #1 overall records and the finals, imagine what he could do with two all-star big men! damn...

xxplayerxx23
02-19-2012, 12:35 AM
he doesn't need to win more than kobe to be better than kobe IMO. he's already proven to be a better all-around player. he just lacks that insane obsession to be the best and win at all costs. and he just hans't won. like i said, kobe never won with a team as bad as lebron had during his cleveland years. kobe would be ringless if he took lebron's career path too...LBJ's been a better individual basketball player in his prime already. he wins 3-4 and he trumps kobe for me.

he's shown the killer instinct numerous times, he's just gotta show it more. statistically, he hits more "clutch" shots than kobe (late in the game, one possession games). kobe has just had the chances to do it more, and though he's missed WAY more, he's made a few that you just can't forget. that's why he's in the top 12, and lebron isn't.

i can only imagine what lebron would do with a prime shaq. i could only imagine what lebron would do with the current laker team honestly. if he took those cavs teams to the #1 overall records and the finals, imagine what he could do with two all-star big men! damn...

if he only wins one I think kobe bryant would be better, Im not saying he has to win more to be better then kobe, i think 2 or 3 would put him above kobe. Lebron though has a prime wade and bosh right now, Puts pressure on him to get one in the next two years or people are really are going to wonder where to rank him, I think he will win one soon though

KB-Pau-DH2012
02-19-2012, 12:39 AM
If KG had won with the T'Wolves, he would without a doubt be ahead of Dirk but in my opinion Dirk was the better player. It's close.

KG in his prime was way more dominant than Dirk in his prime offensively and especially defensively. Dirk has been soft defensively for the majority of his career due to his lack of physicality the first half of his career.

ManRam
02-19-2012, 12:39 AM
if he only wins one I think kobe bryant would be better, Im not saying he has to win more to be better then kobe, i think 2 or 3 would put him above kobe. Lebron though has a prime wade and bosh right now, Puts pressure on him to get one in the next two years or people are really are going to wonder where to rank him, I think he will win one soon though

i won't disagree with 1. he needs 3-4 to be above kobe. i don't think he needs as many as kobe, because he's proven to be better than him already individually and statistically.

if he can't win with wade, bosh...and now a really deep team, then i'll knock him. my whole point is this: i can't blame him for not winning with mo williams as his sidekick, or Z as his sidekick. I just can't. no player, ever, has won with a lesser supporting cast. ever. i knock him for not winning it all last year, and i'll knock him for not winning this year if he doesn't. but no one ever could have done better (or at least won it all) with what he had in cleveland. jordanphiles and kobephiles might attack...but neither of those two ever won a ring with less than what lebron had.

Hellcrooner
02-19-2012, 12:39 AM
he doesn't need to win more than kobe to be better than kobe IMO. he's already proven to be a better all-around player. he just lacks that insane obsession to be the best and win at all costs. and he just hans't won. like i said, kobe never won with a team as bad as lebron had during his cleveland years. kobe would be ringless if he took lebron's career path too...LBJ's been a better individual basketball player in his prime already. he wins 3-4 and he trumps kobe for me.

he's shown the killer instinct numerous times, he's just gotta show it more. statistically, he hits more "clutch" shots than kobe (late in the game, one possession games). kobe has just had the chances to do it more, and though he's missed WAY more, he's made a few that you just can't forget. that's why he's in the top 12, and lebron isn't.

i can only imagine what lebron would do with a prime shaq. i could only imagine what lebron would do with the current laker team honestly. if he took those cavs teams to the #1 overall records and the finals, imagine what he could do with two all-star big men! damn...

what eh woudl do?

Probably average "just" 22 a game to go along with 10 ASISTS a game whilst pau and Drew average 20 a game each too, proceed to collect the best record in the league adn then win a ring.

but hey dont tell it to Kobe fanboys.....they wouldnt want a kobe for Lebron trade not even today, not only that, they dont want lakers to do a move for him in his next F.A in 2013.:rolleyes:

ManRam
02-19-2012, 12:41 AM
KG in his prime was way more dominant than Dirk in his prime offensively and especially defensively. Dirk has been soft defensively for the majority of his career due to his lack of physicality the first half of his career.

agreed. another case of poor supporting casts.

kg had a great team around him for one year in minny. (i'd like to hear what hawkeye has to say...i'll differ my knowledge to his). kg, in his prime, was close to as great as dirk offensively, and a top 2-3 defender. a slightly better all-around player.

there's two sides to the court last time i checked.

xxplayerxx23
02-19-2012, 12:41 AM
i won't disagree with 1. he needs 3-4 to be above kobe. i don't think he needs as many as kobe, because he's proven to be better than him already individually and statistically.

if he can't win with wade, bosh...and now a really deep team, then i'll knock him. my whole point is this: i can't blame him for not winning with mo williams as his sidekick, or Z as his sidekick. I just can't. no player, ever, has won with a lesser supporting cast. ever. i knock him for not winning it all last year, and i'll knock him for not winning this year if he doesn't. but no one ever could have done better (or at least won it all) with what he had in cleveland. jordanphiles and kobephiles might attack...but neither of those two ever won a ring with less than what lebron had.

I agree, Kobe and Jordan both had talent, lebron finally has his talent lets see what he can do with it

ManRam
02-19-2012, 12:48 AM
what eh woudl do?

Probably average "just" 22 a game to go along with 10 ASISTS a game whilst pau and Drew average 20 a game each too, proceed to collect the best record in the league adn then win a ring.

but hey dont tell it to Kobe fanboys.....they wouldnt want a kobe for Lebron trade not even today, not only that, they dont want lakers to do a move for him in his next F.A in 2013.:rolleyes:

crooner, i agree with you, and it's sad ypur laker brethren don't. i don't think kobe is necessarily selfish, but i don't think he's ever maximized the talent around him like lebron can and has done. i mean, lebron got to the ****ing finals with ****ing eric snow, larry huges, sasha pavoliv, z and drew gooden as his 5 best players.

yikes.

BigBongTheory
02-19-2012, 01:03 AM
what eh woudl do?

Probably average "just" 22 a game to go along with 10 ASISTS a game whilst pau and Drew average 20 a game each too, proceed to collect the best record in the league adn then win a ring.

but hey dont tell it to Kobe fanboys.....they wouldnt want a kobe for Lebron trade not even today, not only that, they dont want lakers to do a move for him in his next F.A in 2013.:rolleyes:

Crooner, reading your posts i've gotten used to your Kobe hate, even as you are supposedly a laker fan. But you are probably the most ridiculous person I've ever seen on these forums. Not only do you think because a laker fan doesn't want Lebron on the team he is in the Kobe wrist cutting club, but also the fact you think your posts are even relevant. Laker fans aren't laker fans if they don't want someone that isn't a laker on their team? The decision, the non-worthy extremely over the top parade, for some reason their was a parade anyway. Because people don't care for Lebron and wouldn't want to see him on the Lakers, that makes them Kobe fanboys? Because they don't kiss lebron's boo-boo, Is that it? Because they don't kiss his *** like you do? lol.

Baller1
02-19-2012, 01:09 AM
Lebron is already a top 20 player, and the only thing that could POSSIBLY take him out would be never winning a championship. If he keeps up this play for many more years, you can basically cement him as a top 15 player ever, ring or not.

Hellcrooner
02-19-2012, 01:09 AM
^i kiss no one ***, i speak the truth i see.

Lebron is as of today the best player in the league, i want the best players in my team.

ManRam
02-19-2012, 01:17 AM
lebron would do more with this laker cast than kobe is currently doing. i won't even use the :hide: emoticon for that.

in their primes it might be closer...but again, kobe never had success with a lesser cast than what lebron has had 7/8ths of his career....so i can't knock lebron down too much for that.

rings take a team. period. lebron now has a team...so if he doesn't win these next few years, i'lll knock him. but as i said...he's never had **** before this.

KB-Pau-DH2012
02-19-2012, 01:19 AM
LeBron will be a top 20 player if he wins 1 ring and a top 15 players if he wins 2-3 rings.

It's going to be tough for him to crack top 10 (not saying he can't), but I just can't see him in terms of body of work ahead of guys like Shaq, Magic, Kareem, MJ, Bird, Wilt and Russell.Those guys are just automatic and it's going to take someone really really really special to surpass those guys.

He may be able to pass Hakeem, Duncan and even Kobe, but even then that's tough. I don't see him higher than 8th all-time.

KB-Pau-DH2012
02-19-2012, 01:21 AM
lebron would do more with this laker cast than kobe is currently doing. i won't even use the :hide: emoticon for that.

in their primes it might be closer...but again, kobe never had success with a lesser cast than what lebron has had 7/8ths of his career....so i can't knock lebron down too much for that.

rings take a team. period. lebron now has a team...so if he doesn't win these next few years, i'lll knock him. but as i said...he's never had **** before this.

Last year's NBA Finals drastically hurt his legacy. Not the fact that they lost, but because they lost because of his no shows in the 4th qtrs. I've never seen a superstar so passive, so scared of the moment that is the NBA Finals than LeBron James portrayed last year. It was one thing to play like crap but with effort, but when you don't show the effort, the smarts or the understanding of the moment, that's when things really look bad in the big picture.

KB-Pau-DH2012
02-19-2012, 01:23 AM
Oh, and if I had to go with my top 10 right now all-time:

1. Michael Jordan
2. Magic Johnson
3. Kareem Abdul-Jabbar
4. Bill Russell
5. Wilt Chamberlain
6. Larry Bird
7. Shaquille O'Neal
8. Kobe Bryant
9. Tim Duncan
10. Hakeem Olajuwon

Bruno
02-19-2012, 01:26 AM
True^ I think kobe might of won one in cleveland.

the real problem with LBJ in Cleveland was the consolidation of talent that happened around the league as soon as his team was previously decent enough to win. It took a lot more roster support from 2008 on to win a title than it did in the years directly before it. thank boston for that slippery slope.

ManRam
02-19-2012, 01:31 AM
Last year's NBA Finals drastically hurt his legacy. Not the fact that they lost, but because they lost because of his no shows in the 4th qtrs. I've never seen a superstar so passive, so scared of the moment that is the NBA Finals than LeBron James portrayed last year. It was one thing to play like crap but with effort, but when you don't show the effort, the smarts or the understanding of the moment, that's when things really look bad in the big picture.

i don't disagree. that's literally the only thing that i think hurts it. it does hurt it, and i won't deny it. i said earlier that i blame him for not winning last year, but i can't be mad at him for not winning before last year...

kingsdelez24
02-19-2012, 01:32 AM
I bet if vc won a few titles, he would be up there

Just waiting for saddlers hate train

BigBongTheory
02-19-2012, 01:34 AM
lebron would do more with this laker cast than kobe is currently doing. i won't even use the :hide: emoticon for that.

in their primes it might be closer...but again, kobe never had success with a lesser cast than what lebron has had 7/8ths of his career....so i can't knock lebron down too much for that.

rings take a team. period. lebron now has a team...so if he doesn't win these next few years, i'lll knock him. but as i said...he's never had **** before this.

I can understand that opinion, but then were just dealing with hypotheticals at that point. Kobe may shoot the ball too much, Kobe may go in a slump, he may not throw it into the paint as much as he needs to etc. He's also put enough baskets in the rim to be 5th all-time in scoring and on pace for atleast 3rd all-time. He's been there for the 5 championship memories and the countless million others. For that I love him. For these moments I won't criticize a 33 year old Kobe who is not only doing well, but still playing like one of the best in the game. He may look rusty at times and make some bad decisions, but who doesn't at 33 when their main weapon in their game as age wears on is jump shooting. It's going to happen. There was a time to criticize him, well over a decade ago. That doesn't mean he can just march off and do anything he want's and everything is fine and dandy. We are winning, and that's all that matters. When we lose it's all on him, when we win, it's about how much the supporting cast helps out. And that's fine. I think we can compare when Lebron is 33, and seeing what he can do. Which i'm glad you brought up, comparable in their primes. And awesome sig by the way. Too funny.

ManRam
02-19-2012, 01:38 AM
I can understand that opinion, but then were just dealing with hypotheticals at that point. Kobe may shoot the ball too much, Kobe may go in a slump, he may not throw it into the paint as much as he needs to etc. He's also put enough baskets in the rim to be 5th all-time in scoring and on pace for atleast 3rd all-time. He's been there for the 5 championship memories and the countless million others. For that I love him. For these moments I won't criticize a 33 year old Kobe who is not only doing well, but still playing like one of the best in the game. He may look rusty at times and make some bad decisions, but who doesn't at 33 when their main weapon in their game as age wears on is jump shooting. It's going to happen. There was a time to criticize him, well over a decade ago. That doesn't mean he can just march off and do anything he want's and everything is fine and dandy. We are winning, and that's all that matters. When we lose it's all on him, when we win, it's about how much the supporting cast helps out. And that's fine. I think we can compare when Lebron is 33, and seeing what he can do. Which i'm glad you brought up, comparable in their primes. And awesome sig by the way. Too funny.

it's all hypotheticals, and i've tried to make that clear. and for that reason, that's why kobe is top 12/top 10...and lebron is looking in from the outside. lebron has work to do...even though he's had the best individual single season seasons. he's not at kobe's level...he can't even sniff it.

some players get blessed with great scenarios...some don't. team success matters...but it is far from the be all end all. lebron doesn't need to match kobe's rings to be as good as kobe. he just needs to be a better basketball player...and in his prime, he's already been that for 2-3 years...

Chronz
02-19-2012, 01:42 AM
what eh woudl do?

Probably average "just" 22 a game to go along with 10 ASISTS a game whilst pau and Drew average 20 a game each too, proceed to collect the best record in the league adn then win a ring.

but hey dont tell it to Kobe fanboys.....they wouldnt want a kobe for Lebron trade not even today, not only that, they dont want lakers to do a move for him in his next F.A in 2013.:rolleyes:

crooner, i agree with you, and it's sad ypur laker brethren don't. i don't think kobe is necessarily selfish, but i don't think he's ever maximized the talent around him like lebron can and has done. i mean, lebron got to the ****ing finals with ****ing eric snow, larry huges, sasha pavoliv, z and drew gooden as his 5 best players.

yikes.
You better hope this doesn't go where I think it will, your going to have your work cut out for you

ManRam
02-19-2012, 01:47 AM
chronz, don't say **** like that, just wax us with your knowledge. you knowledge > all of ours. plus, i'm drunk!

BigBongTheory
02-19-2012, 01:50 AM
it's all hypotheticals, and i've tried to make that clear. and for that reason, that's why kobe is top 12/top 10...and lebron is looking in from the outside. lebron has work to do...even though he's had the best individual single season seasons. he's not at kobe's level...he can't even sniff it.

some players get blessed with great scenarios...some don't. team success matters...but it is far from the be all end all. lebron doesn't need to match kobe's rings to be as good as kobe. he just needs to be a better basketball player...and in his prime, he's already been that for 2-3 years...

Kobe is laker blood, Lebron is not. It is no way "sad" that laker fans wouldn't want to take him in with open arms. People don't care for the guy, I for one am one of those people. I don't hate him, and I respect his game to the fullest.

Chronz
02-19-2012, 01:51 AM
lebron would do more with this laker cast than kobe is currently doing. i won't even use the :hide: emoticon for that.

in their primes it might be closer...but again, kobe never had success with a lesser cast than what lebron has had 7/8ths of his career....so i can't knock lebron down too much for that.

rings take a team. period. lebron now has a team...so if he doesn't win these next few years, i'lll knock him. but as i said...he's never had **** before this.

Last year's NBA Finals drastically hurt his legacy. Not the fact that they lost, but because they lost because of his no shows in the 4th qtrs. I've never seen a superstar so passive, so scared of the moment that is the NBA Finals than LeBron James portrayed last year. It was one thing to play like crap but with effort, but when you don't show the effort, the smarts or the understanding of the moment, that's when things really look bad in the big picture.
LMFAO drastically? That Finals run represents a better playoff run than 99% of the league. If that hurts his legacy then lots of players hurt their legacy last year, your boy included seein how he was playing poorly long before that "moment".

Bron in this Finals was a let down, but its no more damning than a first round choke, or tragic johnson, or Bird various flame outs.

Chronz
02-19-2012, 01:58 AM
chronz, don't say **** like that, just wax us with your knowledge. you knowledge > all of ours. plus, i'm drunk!
Im too drunk to taste this chicken.

I've seen where this debate can go, they are surely being made aware of your post as we drink

BigBongTheory
02-19-2012, 01:59 AM
LMFAO drastically? That Finals run represents a better playoff run than 99% of the league. If that hurts his legacy then lots of players hurt their legacy last year, your boy included seein how he was playing poorly long before that "moment".

Bron in this Finals was a let down, but its no more damning than a first round choke, or tragic johnson, or Bird various flame outs.

Not :win: not :win: not :win: not :win:...:win: ;)

BigBongTheory
02-19-2012, 02:00 AM
Don't take that comment seriously, just having a little fun. Maybe.

shep33
02-19-2012, 02:19 AM
KG, Timmy, and Kobe are locks. J-Kidd, Nash, Dirk are close IMO

Jenceman
02-19-2012, 02:24 AM
he doesn't need to win more than kobe to be better than kobe IMO. he's already proven to be a better all-around player. he just lacks that insane obsession to be the best and win at all costs. and he just hans't won. like i said, kobe never won with a team as bad as lebron had during his cleveland years. kobe would be ringless if he took lebron's career path too...LBJ's been a better individual basketball player in his prime already. he wins 3-4 and he trumps kobe for me.

he's shown the killer instinct numerous times, he's just gotta show it more. statistically, he hits more "clutch" shots than kobe (late in the game, one possession games). kobe has just had the chances to do it more, and though he's missed WAY more, he's made a few that you just can't forget. that's why he's in the top 12, and lebron isn't.

i can only imagine what lebron would do with a prime shaq. i could only imagine what lebron would do with the current laker team honestly. if he took those cavs teams to the #1 overall records and the finals, imagine what he could do with two all-star big men! damn...

Did you not see what Lebron did with his team last year?

Hawkeye15
02-19-2012, 02:35 AM
LeBron will be a top 20 player if he wins 1 ring and a top 15 players if he wins 2-3 rings.

It's going to be tough for him to crack top 10 (not saying he can't), but I just can't see him in terms of body of work ahead of guys like Shaq, Magic, Kareem, MJ, Bird, Wilt and Russell.Those guys are just automatic and it's going to take someone really really really special to surpass those guys.

He may be able to pass Hakeem, Duncan and even Kobe, but even then that's tough. I don't see him higher than 8th all-time.

This is a very fair post from a Laker fan I respect. I agree with this barring Bron going bat **** crazy over the next few years.

Hellcrooner
02-19-2012, 04:32 AM
serious question, why in hell does Lebron need a ring to be considered top 20?

I mean, What bout the Mailman, the Fattie and even the mailmans helper? many people consider these players top 20 ( at least the first two, Stock is more conflicting in that regard...)

they have 0 titles.

NYYCowboys
02-19-2012, 04:50 AM
serious question, why in hell does Lebron need a ring to be considered top 20?

I mean, What bout the Mailman, the Fattie and even the mailmans helper? many people consider these players top 20 ( at least the first two, Stock is more conflicting in that regard...)

they have 0 titles.

This

Raph12
02-19-2012, 04:53 AM
Kobe, Duncan and Lebron come to mind; KG and Dirk would be battling a few guys to make it...

Hellcrooner
02-19-2012, 04:56 AM
Kobe, Duncan and Lebron come to mind; KG and Dirk would be battling a few guys to make it...

If Dwight makes the smart choice ( and im not saying wich it is, because deppending on factors any of them can be the smart choice....maybe except staying in orlando), and adds some rings to his fingers he may have a choice.

Evolution23
02-19-2012, 05:01 AM
I can't put Dirk in the top 20. He just doesn't play great defense like the other 3 Kobe, Duncan, and Garnet.

bklynny67
02-19-2012, 05:17 AM
lebron is already a top 20 player of all time

top 20 least clutch star players...yes

Raph12
02-19-2012, 05:50 AM
If Dwight makes the smart choice ( and im not saying wich it is, because deppending on factors any of them can be the smart choice....maybe except staying in orlando), and adds some rings to his fingers he may have a choice.

Definitely agree, I think with 2-4 rings, Dwight would definitely make this list...

Venomous88
02-19-2012, 06:35 AM
serious question, why in hell does Lebron need a ring to be considered top 20?

I mean, What bout the Mailman, the Fattie and even the mailmans helper? many people consider these players top 20 ( at least the first two, Stock is more conflicting in that regard...)

they have 0 titles.Karl Malone is in there because it's pretty obvious he would have won twice haven't it been for Michael Jordan. 2nd all-time scoring list, 3 finals appearance, etc.

While a young LeBron obviously lost because of his lack of supporting cast in 07, he disappeared and is essentially the blame for losing the series this past year. LeBron could easily be argued to be top 20 as well, but I still don't have him there yet; however, his ceiling is right below KAJ and MJ for me. Currently, I have Wade and LeBron in top 30 with other players such as Dirk, Barkley, Scottie, Stockton, Havlicek, etc.

KnicksorBust
02-19-2012, 09:39 AM
Someone ask this question in another forum and I was wondering what everyone here thought. Here was my answer:


When judging players placement in the all-time greatest, I try not confused comparisons between player's actual skills. If we took Jerry West out of his era and placed him in today's, players like Jamal Crawford would probably crush him. We have to take a combination of:

1. How much the player dominated his respective era (stats, accolades, wins)
2. How the player's career stands up to others in his era
3. How the player's career holds against others who played in a different eras.

The tricky part comes when you try to intersect these players of era and avoid a hierarchy when it comes to different eras. However, players pre-70s were not as skilled as the 90s, but that's because the game of basketball was way different back then. We can say that if you took a player with the mental capacity of Jerry West in today's game, he could drive himself just to be as dominating and great as he was in his day. Looking at the list below, I tried to be as objective as possible, but that's still unavoidable. However, some players who are ranked lower than others may be greater players then the others that made above them individually, but it doesn't matter if the team doesn't win. Monta Ellis will continue to be overlooked as an all-star until GS starts to win even though he's arguably the 3rd best SG in the league. My list is based on the greatest players who played the game of basketball as it's supposed to play, a team sport, leading their team to wins while dominating at the same time. However, I do take into consideration the team that those players were on and the players who played alongside them.

My top 20 list including active players

1. Michael Jordan
2. Kareem Abdul-Jabbar
3. Wilt Chamberlain
4. Bill Russell
5. Kobe Bryant
6. Magic Johnson
7. Larry Bird
8. Tim Duncan
9. Shaquille O'Neal
10. Hakeem Olajuwon
11. Oscar Robertson
12. Julius Erving
13. Jerry West
14. Karl Malone
15. Bob Cousy
16. David Robinson
17. Isiah Thomas
18. Moses Malone
19. Kevin Garnett
20. George Mikan

Active Players who have cracked the Top 20:

Kobe Bryant
Tim Duncan
Kevin Garnett

Players who have the most potential to crack the top 20 in order:

LeBron James: He just needs one ring

Dirk Nowitzki: If he has one more ring. With just one more finals appearance, he could even be argued to take Garnett or Mikan's spot

Dwyane Wade: Needs one ring and FMVP; or two more rings and solid performances

Kevin Durant: Stay consistent with his exceptional numbers, break records, Finals appearance and a ring

Jason Kidd: Needs another ring, but is unlikely with this looking like it's going to be his last season

Chris Paul: If he brings his numbers back up to his career average and depending on the development of Blake Griffin, he could still make a case for the top 20 if he is able to make a Finals appearance or win a ring.

Dwight Howard: Since there is still a possibility he could go to the Mavs or Lakers, he still has a chance to win

Derrick Rose: He's already a MVP and only 23. Not to mention he's on a contender and could make a finals appearance and win a ring.

Good OP. I disagree with your Top 20 (you are shafting Moses big time) but you did a good job setting up the discussion and made some interesting predictions for future top 20 players.

NYKalltheway
02-19-2012, 10:21 AM
Probably just 3, Duncan, Garnett and Kobe. It'll take a whole new generation to have like 10 guys challenge for something like this from one era.

NBAfan4life
02-19-2012, 11:00 AM
I got Kobe, KG, and Duncan so far

Hellcrooner
02-19-2012, 12:59 PM
Karl Malone is in there because it's pretty obvious he would have won twice haven't it been for Michael Jordan. 2nd all-time scoring list, 3 finals appearance, etc.

While a young LeBron obviously lost because of his lack of supporting cast in 07, he disappeared and is essentially the blame for losing the series this past year. LeBron could easily be argued to be top 20 as well, but I still don't have him there yet; however, his ceiling is right below KAJ and MJ for me. Currently, I have Wade and LeBron in top 30 with other players such as Dirk, Barkley, Scottie, Stockton, Havlicek, etc.

Mj wasnt there in 94 and 95, he wasnt there in 99 and 00.

And Lebron has played in an era with Duncan, Shaq, Kobe, Celtics Trio, then Kobe-Pau Lakers, and now superb teams are being created in okc or the other side of town in L.a

basketfan4life
02-19-2012, 03:07 PM
what eh woudl do?

Probably average "just" 22 a game to go along with 10 ASISTS a game whilst pau and Drew average 20 a game each too, proceed to collect the best record in the league adn then win a ring.

but hey dont tell it to Kobe fanboys.....they wouldnt want a kobe for Lebron trade not even today, not only that, they dont want lakers to do a move for him in his next F.A in 2013.:rolleyes:

YEAH, because he is averaging 22-10 wit wade and bosh who both are better scorers than gasol/bynum... You just can't get over this ****.

edit: also kobe won not one but 2 with them which is the real deal over who scores how many, so what is your point again ?

beliges
02-19-2012, 03:24 PM
lebron would do more with this laker cast than kobe is currently doing. i won't even use the :hide: emoticon for that.

in their primes it might be closer...but again, kobe never had success with a lesser cast than what lebron has had 7/8ths of his career....so i can't knock lebron down too much for that.

rings take a team. period. lebron now has a team...so if he doesn't win these next few years, i'lll knock him. but as i said...he's never had **** before this.

Kobe would have won a title with Miami if you replaced him with LBJ. Furthermore, LBJ never played with a supporting cast as bad as Kobe's were in the 05-07 years (Post Shaq-pre Pau). This hypothetical argument works both ways. But Im not one of those people that gives LBJ all this undeserved praise. He is a truly remarkable player and a very unique talent. But, its impossible to call him a top 15 or top 20 player when he has never won anything. And not only that, the best chance he had at winning something, he underperformed as much as any superstar has choked on the biggest stage. Surely he will go down as a top 20 player of all time one day, but if his career were to end right now, not a chance he would be in the top 20. He does not have the longevity, the clutchness or the dominance when it comes to winning as some of the players that came before him. Most of the people trying to put LBJ in the top 20 or so are people that are not old enough to remember other great players. Guys like Karl Malone and Barkely who never won a title have had better careers at this point than LBJ has. Give the dude time, let him earn his greatness and then it would be fair to put him up there with all these all time greats. But a few great regular seasons along with a couple of underperforming postseasons is not enough.

NBAfan4life
02-19-2012, 03:25 PM
I actually think I would even add Lebron at this point.

JasonJohnHorn
02-19-2012, 03:26 PM
Kobe. James. Garnett. Duncan. Wade. Dirk. That's about it. Maybe Chris Paul depending on how his career goes, and maybe even Kevin Love and Blake Griffen, but its too early to tell.

And any fool who puts Mikan in the top 20 doesnt know $#!T about basketball. Yes, he was the reason they made certain rules, but he was just a tall white dude and whoever the first tall white dude was was going to cause rules to be changed. He wasn't that good and likely wouldnt even be able to earn a roster spot in today's league. Big fish, small, segragated pond.

Hellcrooner
02-19-2012, 03:52 PM
Kobe. James. Garnett. Duncan. Wade. Dirk. That's about it. Maybe Chris Paul depending on how his career goes, and maybe even Kevin Love and Blake Griffen, but its too early to tell.

And any fool who puts Mikan in the top 20 doesnt know $#!T about basketball. Yes, he was the reason they made certain rules, but he was just a tall white dude and whoever the first tall white dude was was going to cause rules to be changed. He wasn't that good and likely wouldnt even be able to earn a roster spot in today's league. Big fish, small, segragated pond.

Thats why rules were changed for George Nostrand and he is a hof......................not.

Vidball
02-19-2012, 04:17 PM
Kobe and Duncan for sure. I think KG and Dirk are both in the 20-25 range. LeBron will get there unless he can't win a ring playing alongside Wade & Bosh (which would be surprising).

NBAfan4life
02-19-2012, 04:54 PM
It is a very real possibility that James will have 3 MVP's after this season. Even if he doesn't win a championship you eventually will have to make some room for him in the top 20 with number like these.

beliges
02-19-2012, 05:20 PM
It is a very real possibility that James will have 3 MVP's after this season. Even if he doesn't win a championship you eventually will have to make some room for him in the top 20 with number like these.

Not while Durant is playing and healthy this season. Hes a virtual lock for the MVP right now. I dont see how Lebron gets MVP playing on the Heat with Wade and Bosh.

Chronz
02-19-2012, 05:41 PM
Someone ask this question in another forum and I was wondering what everyone here thought. Here was my answer:


When judging players placement in the all-time greatest, I try not confused comparisons between player's actual skills. If we took Jerry West out of his era and placed him in today's, players like Jamal Crawford would probably crush him. We have to take a combination of:

1. How much the player dominated his respective era (stats, accolades, wins)
2. How the player's career stands up to others in his era
3. How the player's career holds against others who played in a different eras.

The tricky part comes when you try to intersect these players of era and avoid a hierarchy when it comes to different eras. However, players pre-70s were not as skilled as the 90s, but that's because the game of basketball was way different back then. We can say that if you took a player with the mental capacity of Jerry West in today's game, he could drive himself just to be as dominating and great as he was in his day. Looking at the list below, I tried to be as objective as possible, but that's still unavoidable. However, some players who are ranked lower than others may be greater players then the others that made above them individually, but it doesn't matter if the team doesn't win. Monta Ellis will continue to be overlooked as an all-star until GS starts to win even though he's arguably the 3rd best SG in the league. My list is based on the greatest players who played the game of basketball as it's supposed to play, a team sport, leading their team to wins while dominating at the same time. However, I do take into consideration the team that those players were on and the players who played alongside them.

My top 20 list including active players

1. Michael Jordan
2. Kareem Abdul-Jabbar
3. Wilt Chamberlain
4. Bill Russell
5. Kobe Bryant
6. Magic Johnson
7. Larry Bird
8. Tim Duncan
9. Shaquille O'Neal
10. Hakeem Olajuwon
11. Oscar Robertson
12. Julius Erving
13. Jerry West
14. Karl Malone
15. Bob Cousy
16. David Robinson
17. Isiah Thomas
18. Moses Malone
19. Kevin Garnett
20. George Mikan

Active Players who have cracked the Top 20:

Kobe Bryant
Tim Duncan
Kevin Garnett

Players who have the most potential to crack the top 20 in order:

LeBron James: He just needs one ring

Dirk Nowitzki: If he has one more ring. With just one more finals appearance, he could even be argued to take Garnett or Mikan's spot

Dwyane Wade: Needs one ring and FMVP; or two more rings and solid performances

Kevin Durant: Stay consistent with his exceptional numbers, break records, Finals appearance and a ring

Jason Kidd: Needs another ring, but is unlikely with this looking like it's going to be his last season

Chris Paul: If he brings his numbers back up to his career average and depending on the development of Blake Griffin, he could still make a case for the top 20 if he is able to make a Finals appearance or win a ring.

Dwight Howard: Since there is still a possibility he could go to the Mavs or Lakers, he still has a chance to win

Derrick Rose: He's already a MVP and only 23. Not to mention he's on a contender and could make a finals appearance and win a ring.

Good OP. I disagree with your Top 20 (you are shafting Moses big time) but you did a good job setting up the discussion and made some interesting predictions for future top 20 players.
WTF?

So your on the record that Jamal would theoretically school the logo?

I stopped reading right there, I don't know what your reading but it couldn't have salvaged his credibility

stop40
02-19-2012, 05:58 PM
Malone and Garnett too high. Mostly cause with one more ring for dirk of wade, both should be higher than the ringless stat-padding Malone.

beliges
02-19-2012, 06:03 PM
Malone and Garnett too high. Mostly cause with one more ring for dirk of wade, both should be higher than the ringless stat-padding Malone.

What made Malone so great was that he was so dominant for such a long period of time. I dont see Wade being able to dominate for that many years and Dirk is already no longer a dominant player. You are mistaking longevity with stat padding thats just wrong.

Venomous88
02-19-2012, 07:24 PM
WTF?

So your on the record that Jamal would theoretically school the logo?

I stopped reading right there, I don't know what your reading but it couldn't have salvaged his credibilityDid you not read the rest of the post? Way to miss the point :facepalm:

Venomous88
02-19-2012, 07:26 PM
Kobe. James. Garnett. Duncan. Wade. Dirk. That's about it. Maybe Chris Paul depending on how his career goes, and maybe even Kevin Love and Blake Griffen, but its too early to tell.

And any fool who puts Mikan in the top 20 doesnt know $#!T about basketball. Yes, he was the reason they made certain rules, but he was just a tall white dude and whoever the first tall white dude was was going to cause rules to be changed. He wasn't that good and likely wouldnt even be able to earn a roster spot in today's league. Big fish, small, segragated pond.Did you read my OP?