PDA

View Full Version : Magic Greatest of all time?



javaid64
02-16-2012, 01:44 AM
Jordan is Always gonna be the best but I've been thinking about how Magic left the game at age 32 with 5 rings....if he didn't get HIV and leave the game would Jordan still have 6 rings......I feel as though had Magic not gotton HIV he would have won at least 1 more ring....

Raph12
02-16-2012, 02:01 AM
If Jordan didn't retire for a year during, he'd have 8 rings right now, so no...

utl768
02-16-2012, 02:01 AM
no one is better then jordan

KingOf215
02-16-2012, 02:10 AM
I consider Magic Johnson the greatest point guard of all time and greatest Laker of all time... that's it though.

Hellcrooner
02-16-2012, 02:16 AM
I consider Magic the Goat.

Because thats how things should be, people should be free to chose who they think the goat is ( among worhty candidates, ok? no Jeremy Lins thanks) instead of having to put up with one being forced into our throats by media, shoe companys, mcdonalds, espn, gatorade and so on and on and on fro 30 years now.

Jordan is ONE of the heaviest candidates with Magic, Wilt, RObertson, Kareem, Bird, Kobe, Bird, Hakeem

But shouldnt be considered Hands down/ no questions made / blah blah blah goat, no one ever should be considered that.


And that not taking on account that is stupid to compare players on different positions.

javaid64
02-16-2012, 02:33 AM
people bring up the fact that he dominated the 90's but cant that also be said about magic and the 80's...i mean we give so much slack to people like lebron for not winning a chip but jordan didnt win one until he was in his 7th season or when he was 28.....magic dominated his whole career....and magic had a rival who was comparable to him in Larry bird.....Jordan did play stiff competition but he but he never played on someone who was at the peak at the same time he was as good as magic and bird were....

I just find it awkward that people give jordan the right's to greatest of all time and throw away any sort of debate like its meaningless...

chrisf975
02-16-2012, 02:39 AM
I consider Magic the Goat.

Because thats how things should be, people should be free to chose who they think the goat is ( among worhty candidates, ok? no Jeremy Lins thanks) instead of having to put up with one being forced into our throats by media, shoe companys, mcdonalds, espn, gatorade and so on and on and on fro 30 years now.

Jordan is ONE of the heaviest candidates with Magic, Wilt, RObertson, Kareem, Bird, Kobe, Bird, Hakeem

But shouldnt be considered Hands down/ no questions made / blah blah blah goat, no one ever should be considered that.


And that not taking on account that is stupid to compare players on different positions.
You said bird twice so I'm gonna say he's the Goat. Ya but i really do consider bird the greatest he's my choice.

72 Wins
02-16-2012, 02:42 AM
if jordan didn't retire for a year during, he'd have 8 rings right now, so no...

this.

JordansBulls
02-16-2012, 02:57 AM
Here was the topic we had in the summer and you see Magic finished 4th.

http://www.prosportsdaily.com/forums/showthread.php?t=635088

After the 1991 season the Lakers weren't going to win anymore titles whether Magic was there or not unless they ended up getting a Drob or something which wasn't going to happen either.

JordansBulls
02-16-2012, 02:59 AM
You said bird twice so I'm gonna say he's the Goat. Ya but i really do consider bird the greatest he's my choice.

Bird has no case for greatest. He lost more series with HCA then any other star player and he never won any playoff series without HCA.

javaid64
02-16-2012, 03:04 AM
Here was the topic we had in the summer and you see Magic finished 4th.

http://www.prosportsdaily.com/forums/showthread.php?t=635088

After the 1991 season the Lakers weren't going to win anymore titles whether Magic was there or not unless they ended up getting a Drob or something which wasn't going to happen either.

again i feel like people who vote for jordan as greatest just accept and dont question it....most people i kno just accept jordan yet they were too young to actually watching basketball...i mean it helps that most basketballs shoes are jordan branded and people assume since we're still wearing his shoes he must be the best of all time.

who's to say if magic was as heavily marketed as jordan was or that his reputation wasn't adversely affected cause of him getting HIV we would be talking about him being greatest of all time...

I feel like the idea jordan is the greatest of all time comes from nike's marketing scheme as advertising him as the best....making all people not question why he is the greatest of all time....

Hellcrooner
02-16-2012, 04:52 AM
btw jordan played in the 1995 playoffs for the bulls.

Just saying , because whenever a b.s hype story of MJ is brought up in amovie, tv special, youtube video or whatever machine feeding tool stupidity they always conviniently delete that part of Jordan getting bent int he playoffs making the 8 ring theory completely unacurate, unscientifical and based on weak what if speculations.

naps
02-16-2012, 04:59 AM
Crooner I know you are a Jordan hater and all but I respect people's choice. I wanna hear a logical response why Magic is the GOAT over Jordan. Bring it on. I am ready.

Hellcrooner
02-16-2012, 05:07 AM
Just one?

Could Jordan play the 5 positions with efficience?

Magic Could and did and has a ring playing the key/last game of the finals at Center to prove it.

Want more?

Cfrey
02-16-2012, 05:10 AM
magic johnson is the g.o.a.t and theres no doubt in my mind

naps
02-16-2012, 05:18 AM
Just one?

Could Jordan play the 5 positions with efficience?

Magic Could and did and has a ring playing the key/last game of the finals at Center to prove it.

Want more?



How does that prove that he's the GOAT? So in that logic LeBron can play 4/5 positions, does that also make him better than let's say Jordan? If you think you have a point let's illustrate it. Bring in as many points you can. I will encounter and give you plenty of reasons why Jordan is superior and why it's not even close but first I will let you have it since you claimed it first. Mine is too easy but it'll be interesting to see if anyone can provide a reasonable response why Magic is the GOAT over Jordan. Let's go!

EDIT: I hope JB doesn't ruin it by responding before you. He can literally make this thread closed with just one post. I know he has that post saved somewhere in his computer. JB, let him make his case first.

Hellcrooner
02-16-2012, 06:03 AM
How does that prove that he's the GOAT? So in that logic LeBron can play 4/5 positions, does that also make him better than let's say Jordan? If you think you have a point let's illustrate it. Bring in as many points you can. I will encounter and give you plenty of reasons why Jordan is superior and why it's not even close but first I will let you have it since you claimed it first. Mine is too easy but it'll be interesting to see if anyone can provide a reasonable response why Magic is the GOAT over Jordan. Let's go!

EDIT: I hope JB doesn't ruin it by responding before you. He can literally make this thread closed with just one post. I know he has that post saved somewhere in his computer. JB, let him make his case first.

oh yeah his magic johnson didnt want to play in chicago b.s post.
he will bring it sooner or later.
I simply ignore it.

LakersSaintsLSU
02-16-2012, 06:20 AM
Jordan is Always gonna be the best but I've been thinking about how Magic left the game at age 32 with 5 rings....if he didn't get HIV and leave the game would Jordan still have 6 rings......I feel as though had Magic not gotton HIV he would have won at least 1 more ring....

I said the same thing but the jordan kokk suckahs(mainly guys who are not from chicago and there hometeam sucked so they jump on the bulls bandwagon like every other sucker) gonna hate. And oh yea say what you want but no way the bulls beat SHAQ in his prime in 97 they played utah twice in the finals

LakersSaintsLSU
02-16-2012, 06:23 AM
Next dude that mentions a ringless number 6 SF of the miami heat in this conversation idc what he says should be slapped...no way this guy gets in this convo

LakersSaintsLSU
02-16-2012, 06:25 AM
I consider Magic the Goat.

Because thats how things should be, people should be free to chose who they think the goat is ( among worhty candidates, ok? no Jeremy Lins thanks) instead of having to put up with one being forced into our throats by media, shoe companys, mcdonalds, espn, gatorade and so on and on and on fro 30 years now.

Jordan is ONE of the heaviest candidates with Magic, Wilt, RObertson, Kareem, Bird, Kobe, Bird, Hakeem

But shouldnt be considered Hands down/ no questions made / blah blah blah goat, no one ever should be considered that.


And that not taking on account that is stupid to compare players on different positions.
:clap::clap::clap::clap::clap::clap::clap::clap::c lap::clap::clap::clap::clap::clap::clap::clap::cla p::clap::clap::clap::clap::clap::clap::clap::clap: :clap:

MickeyMgl
02-16-2012, 07:34 AM
Jordan is Always gonna be the best but I've been thinking about how Magic left the game at age 32 with 5 rings....if he didn't get HIV and leave the game would Jordan still have 6 rings......I feel as though had Magic not gotton HIV he would have won at least 1 more ring....

It's a reasonable thing to wonder. One thing about the tough competition of the 80s is that you saw teams come back at one another in the Finals over several years, and the same team didn't always win. Magic and the Lakers were deprived of that opportunity against the Bulls, and the Bulls - until the Jazz in '98 - never had to face anybody more than once.

MickeyMgl
02-16-2012, 07:38 AM
I consider Magic the Goat.

Because thats how things should be, people should be free to chose who they think the goat is ( among worhty candidates, ok? no Jeremy Lins thanks) instead of having to put up with one being forced into our throats by media, shoe companys, mcdonalds, espn, gatorade and so on and on and on fro 30 years now.

Jordan is ONE of the heaviest candidates with Magic, Wilt, RObertson, Kareem, Bird, Kobe, Bird, Hakeem

But shouldnt be considered Hands down/ no questions made / blah blah blah goat, no one ever should be considered that.


And that not taking on account that is stupid to compare players on different positions.

:rock:

MickeyMgl
02-16-2012, 07:46 AM
I said the same thing but the jordan kokk suckahs(mainly guys who are not from chicago and there hometeam sucked so they jump on the bulls bandwagon like every other sucker) gonna hate. And oh yea say what you want but no way the bulls beat SHAQ in his prime in 97 they played utah twice in the finals

Jordan never had to face a dominant center in the Finals.

abe_froman
02-16-2012, 08:36 AM
Jordan is Always gonna be the best but I've been thinking about how Magic left the game at age 32 with 5 rings....if he didn't get HIV and leave the game would Jordan still have 6 rings......I feel as though had Magic not gotton HIV he would have won at least 1 more ring....

even with one more ring magic wouldnt surpass mj(not even getting the double retirement of mj that would have seen his ring total rise as well).91 represented the akers best chance of the decade and still fell.i highly doubt the lakers would even get out f the west.and a not getting any younger magic and divac wouldnt have been nearly enough to be a serious threat to the suns that were put together right after,blazers,rockets,spurs,sonics and jazz teams of the 90's.this isnt meant as a form of hate(though it will be taken as that by laker fans who want the goat title to be a laker so badly),i have magic as top 5 all time.just that every dynasty and great player sees an inevitable decline.the pistons demolished them in 89 and bulls beat the in 91...the magic/laker era had clearly past even before his disease

ziglur
02-16-2012, 08:41 AM
I was a Larry Bird fan and didnt like Magic much. But when he filled in for Kareem for that game and scored something like 40 pts with 18 rebs I had to admit , he was better than Bird.. Hes at least the #2 player whoever played. Jordon tried to make himself look good and Magic always made his team mates look good. If he had played trying to pad his stats he would be considered the best I think. But then again he wouldnt have won the rings he did win. Bird is in the top 10 not bad for a slow white guy

Mcdoh
02-16-2012, 08:52 AM
yup magic is the GOAT...

FNM BOY
02-16-2012, 09:32 AM
Magic is GOAT??? LOL...yall cant be serious!! Magic walked onto a hall of fame team straight out of college...Jordan on the other hand had to struggle, get be beat down constantly from the Celtics and the Detroit Bad Boys for years before he overcame with getting some assistance from Pippen and Co.... and he got his first ring by kickin Magic and Co. off the throne!!!

Jordan is GOAT!!! HANDS DOWN....in your discussions and evaluations of the topic at hand... please name me one other basketball player in the discussion of GOAT who is 6-0 in Championships....JORDAN NEVER WENT TO THE FINALS AND LOST...Again....name me another who won 3 straight...took a holiday for 2 years...and came back and won 3 more....are u serious????...lol...JORDAN ALL DAY!!!!

Hawkeye15
02-16-2012, 09:36 AM
nope, Jordan is the best player to ever play. It wasn't just length of time (by the way, if you want to point to Magic leaving at 32, don't forget to throw in MJ walked away in his peak for a couple of seasons, so he may just as easily had 8 rings). Jordan's peak was so far and away better than any other basketball player of his era, including Magic, he never lost a finals, he set every scoring record in the book, won 5 MVP's, the list goes on and on and on. Magic is a top 5 player ever, but for me personally, #1 is really easy. Factor in Magic was average on defense while MJ was elite. Its just really simply to make a case for MJ over Magic honestly, and that isn't a slight at Magic at all. Jordan was just that good.

Hawkeye15
02-16-2012, 09:39 AM
Crooner, I will never understand the angle you attempt to pull saying we think MJ is the GOAT due to the media, McDonalds, NIKE, etc. We think he is the GOAT because we watched him destroy everyone in sight, and dominate an era. People are sheeple when it comes to a lot of things, like politics, but sports is different. In fact, I would go so far as to say a sport figure being overly covered by the media has an opposite effect of what you are saying. People get sick of it.

JordansBulls
02-16-2012, 09:41 AM
Magic refused to play with the Bulls and wanted to go to a winning organization an organization that won 6 titles and was in 15 finals before he arrived and that had the best player in the league. Here is the article on Magic commenting himself.

http://articles.latimes.com/1991-06-05/sports/sp-83_1_lakers


Magic Johnson would have returned to Michigan State rather than play for the Chicago Bulls.

"I'd have stayed in school," he said here Tuesday, standing alone outside Gate 3 1/2 of Chicago Stadium, the house that could have been his. "A coin toss changed the course of my whole life."

Johnson signed with the Lakers after his sophomore year of college and proceeded to win five championships. The Bulls picked second, took UCLA's David Greenwood and have won no championships.

"I wouldn't have played here," Johnson said on the eve of Game 2 of the NBA finals between his team and the team that could have been his. "The only reason I came out was to play with Kareem and the Lakers.


In contrary here is what Jordan said:



"When I came here we started from scratch," he said. "We started at the bottom and made it to the top. It's been a long, long seven years, a lot of bad teams, a lot of improvement, step by step, inch by inch. I never gave up hope. I always had faith."



Me personally I value strongly guys who take a team from the bottom to the top. Who take an organization
who never won anything and turn them into winners.

Examples:

MJ with the Bulls
Hakeem with the Rockets
Isiah with the Pistons
Kareem with the Bucks

JordansBulls
02-16-2012, 09:49 AM
again i feel like people who vote for jordan as greatest just accept and dont question it....most people i kno just accept jordan yet they were too young to actually watching basketball...i mean it helps that most basketballs shoes are jordan branded and people assume since we're still wearing his shoes he must be the best of all time.

who's to say if magic was as heavily marketed as jordan was or that his reputation wasn't adversely affected cause of him getting HIV we would be talking about him being greatest of all time...

I feel like the idea jordan is the greatest of all time comes from nike's marketing scheme as advertising him as the best....making all people not question why he is the greatest of all time....

Jordan is the only player in the top 20 all time that is undefeated in series with HCA.


HCA(50+)/non-50
Jordan: 14-0 / 10-0
Magic: 9-2 / 20-1


Jordan's teams had HCA in 24 playoff series throughout his career, and they were 24-0 in all of them. Thats not an achievement? His teams were the favorites 24 times, and never once did they get upset.
You can't say that for pretty much any other superstar that has played in that many series.

Does that make him the automatic GOAT?
No, of course not cause there are other things to take into consideration, but IMO it definitely makes his case stronger.


Magic played with a guy that is ranked ahead of him all time in Kareem. How is that going to propel you to be the best when your teammate by most is considered greater?



Playoff Series Record with HCA against teams with a +2 SRS:

W-L PCT
1) MJ 15-0 100.0%
Magic 15-2 88.2%





Playoff Series Record with HCA against teams with a +4 SRS:

W-L PCT
1) MJ 11-0 100.0%
Magic 6-1 85.7%


Magic was great, but IMO how can you be considered the best of all time if you were not great on both ends? This is a big reason why MJ, Kareem and Wilt are the 3 most talked about for GOAT. Because while Russell has the titles and the defense, he wasn't great on offense. Magic has the offense and playmaking ability but he wasn't great on defense.

As for why Jordan is usually the majority pick for GOAT over those two in particular, there are a couple of reasons:


- Statistical dominance. Though Magic and Bird both put up otherworldly numbers, Jordan's production-- and not just in terms of scoring-- was stratospheric for a non-center. Jordan's average EFF (a cumulative stat that takes into account all the statistical categories and measures overall statistical impact) upon his retirement in 1993 was an astonishing 32.9. And that's an 8 season average. By comparison, Magic only topped 32.9 on one occasion, and even then just barely (33.3 EFF in '88-'89). Bird topped 32.9 on a few occasions (with EFF's of 34.3, 34.4, and 34.0), but his average EFF from 1980-1990 (not counting his last two seasons due to injuries) was "only" 30.4. Jordan's single season high in EFF was 37.0, and he topped 34 two other times as well (34.6 and 35.1). And Jordan led in PER 7x, while Bird and Magic did so only once and MJ has the highest PER ever recorded at 27.91 with Shaq being 2nd.



- Achievements, such as MVP's, Finals MVP's, DPOY award, and first-team and defensive first-team selections. Jordan had 5 MVP's to Magic and Bird's 3 apiece; he had 6 Finals MVP's to Magic's 3 and Bird's 2. He had a DPOY award that Magic and Bird could never hope to get. He had 10 all-NBA first-team selections to Magic's 9 and Bird's 9. Yes, Magic would have had more had he not retired and Bird would've had more if not for injuries, but Jordan would have also had 2 more had he not retired in '93, and likely a third had he not broken his foot in '86, so it's no use playing the "what if" game. Jordan also had 9 defensive first-team selections to Magic's none and Bird's 3 defensive second-team selections.


- Championships. Simply put, Jordan (6) has more than either Bird (3) or Magic (5). Yes, Bird and Magic had to beat each other for rings, which precluded either of them from getting more, but they each also had tons more help than Jordan did. Regardless, arguments about league strength aside, Jordan just has more, and his period of dominance was longer than Magic or Bird's. Also, this is only one aspect of the overall picture, so even if you feel that MJ's 6 rings don't hold as much weight as Magic's 5 (though I personally feel that the strength of Magic's supporting cast relative to Jordan's is enough to counterbalance the supposedly "weaker era" and make them relatively equal accomplishments)-- but if you disagree, then just realize that this is only one aspect of a larger picture.


- Overall skill. All three were among the top 5 or 6 most skilled players of all-time imo, and each had advantages over the others in various areas. Bird was the best rebounder of the bunch, Magic the best passer, Jordan the best scorer and defender. However, in their respective primes, the edges that Bird and Magic had on Jordan in these categories is not as large as the edge that Jordan had on Magic and Bird in his pet categories. For example, in his prime, Bird was capable of getting 13-17 rebounds on any given night, while in his prime, Jordan was capable of grabbing 11-14 rebounds on any given night. Magic in his prime could dish out 13-17 assists on any given night, whereas Jordan in his prime could dish out 10-14 assists on any given night. However, scoring-wise, Jordan was good for 45-55 on any given night while Bird was good for about 35-40 or so on any given night, and Magic "only" about 30-35.

Also defensively, Jordan was capable of disrupting entire teams' offenses in a way that neither Magic nor Bird were ever remotely capable of; he was also capable of playing lock-down defense, which neither of them really could, and he did so fairly consistently. I have a game vs. Boston on DVD from '88 where Jordan has 8 steals at the half, and Boston literally could not run the plays they wanted to because of Jordan's presence on the court. Bird looked exasperated. He could almost singlehandedly take opposing big men out of the game with his help defense from up top and the weak side. At any rate, the gap in defense between Jordan and Magic/Bird is much more significant than Bird's edge in rebounding and Magic's edge in passing in their respective primes imo. At the very least, these 3 are a wash skill-wise.


- Clutch play and dominance. Magic was clutch, to be certain, even if his clutchness often manifested itself in different ways than MJ's clutchness usually did. Bird was, obviously, a top 3 clutch player all-time (along w/Jordan and West imo), so he's in that conversation. Still, Jordan is generally considered to be the most clutch of the three, though it's not a huge advantage by any means. While all three were capable of beating you with the shot, rebound, or pass (some better than others in each category, but all capable), Jordan was a clutch defender as well, and could come up with the key block or steal or denial of a shot attempt by his man when it counted to a far greater degree than either Bird or Magic. Bird and Magic made up for their comparative lack of defensive ability with their canniness (e.g., Bird's steal vs. Detroit in the ECF), but it wasn't nearly on the same level as Jordan. Also, of the two, only Bird approaches Jordan's dominance over the league in terms of "who is the biggest bad guy? Who don't you want to piss off?" Bird was a bad, bad man. Jordan was badder, and he maintained that status for longer (through no fault of Bird's own; his injuries really robbed him of a few of his prime years).


You put all these things together and it's difficult to pick Magic or Bird over Jordan, for me at least. I have no problem admitting that all are on the same relative level, however-- If Bird's prime wasn't cut short, he would've went down as better than Magic imo, since his peak play ('84-'86) was better than Magic's peak play ('86-'89). Like Jerry West said of Jordan in 1993: "he's the best offensive player in the league, he's the best defensive player in the league, and he's the best competitor, playing on a team that, while suited to him, is not an ideal team. He carries that team; and very rarely do you see players carry teams to victories, much less championships. And if there's ever going to be a player who comes along that's better, I think we're all going to be sitting here scratching our heads."

JordansBulls
02-16-2012, 09:50 AM
Only players with 5+ Titles and multiple Finals MVP's

MJ = 6 titles, 6 Finals MVP's
Kareem = 6 Titles, 2 Finals MVP's
Magic = 5 Titles, 3 Finals MVP's
Kobe = 5 Titles, 2 Finals MVP's.


1. MJ (6 Titles, 5 League MVP's, 6 Finals MVP's, Career Leader in PPG Regular Season and Playoffs, and Most Points in Playoffs, etc)
2. Magic (5 Titles, 3 League MVP's, 3 Finals MVP's, # of APG titles)
3. Kareem (6 Titles, 6 League MVP's, 3 Finals MVP's, Career Points leader)
4. Russell (11 Titles, 5 League MVP's)
5. Wilt (2 Titles, 4 League MVP's, 1 Finals MVP)
Close
6. Bird (3 Titles, 3 League MVP's, 2 Finals MVP's)
7. Shaq (4 Titles, 1 League MVP's, 3 Finals MVP's)
8. Duncan (4 Titles, 2 League MVP's, 3 Finals MVP's)
9. Hakeem (2 Titles, 1 League MVP, 2 Finals MVP's)
10.Kobe (4 Titles, 1 League MVP, 1 Finals MVP)

So if we break it down, let's go by the following:

League MVP's
6 - Kareem Abdul-Jabbar
5 - Michael Jordan
5 - Bill Russell
4 - Wilt Chamberlain
3 - Larry Bird
3 - Magic Johnson
3 - Moses Malone

Finals MVP's
6 - Michael Jordan
3 - Magic Johnson
3 - Shaquille O'neal
3 - Tim Duncan
2 - Kareem
2 - Bird
2 - Kobe
1 - Wilt
1 - Moses Malone

Championships
11 - Bill Russell
6 - Michael Jordan
6 - Kareem
5 - Magic
5 - Kobe
4 - Shaq
4 - Duncan
2 - Wilt

Career Stats and Records - Regular Season
APG Leader: Magic
RPG Leader: Wilt
All-time Career Points Leader: Kareem
All-time PPG Leader: M.Jordan
Playoff Stats and Records - Playoffs
Total Assists Leader: Magic Johnson
APG Leader Playoffs: Magic Johnson
Total Rebounds Leader: Bill Russell
RPG Leader Playoffs: Bill Russell
All-time Career Points Leader Playoffs: M.Jordan
All-time PPG Leader Playoffs: M.Jordan
So currently the only players that fit the bill in each category are both MJ's.
Now if you add the fact of Defensive Teams that would eliminate Magic. However, I won't do that to him because he is my 2nd favorite player.
Now if you want you can add in the TSN MVP award as well


http://www.basketball-reference.com/awards/tsn_mvp.html
TSN MVP
7 - Michael Jordan
6 - Kareem
4 - Wilt
4 - Russell
2 - Moses
2 - Shaq
1 - Hakeem
1 - Magic

http://www.usatoday.com/sports/basketball/nba/2003-02-06-dupree-team_x.htm

So Kareem has the most league MVP's, MJ the most Finals MVP's, and Russell the most titles.
MJ is near the top in all of them though as is Russell, but Russell doesn't have the numbers to support him.
Also consider
Kareem won League MVP and Finals MVP in 1971
Magic won League MVP and Finals MVP in 1987
MJ won League MVP and Finals MVP in 1991, 1992, 1996 and 1998.
Bird won League MVP and Finals MVP in 1984 and 1986

Now all of that is looking at accolades, so how do we go even further in deciding who is the best as we can't just use titles alone. Well what did they did yearly and in the playoffs?

Highest PPG Average: 30.12
Most seasons leading league in Points: 11
Most scoring titles: 10
Highest PER Efficiency: 27.91
Also, MJ is no doubt the greatest playoff performer and IMO he was the greatest Road Player Ever. Most of his greatest feats happened on the road.
The Playoffs is where you make your name and where greatness is defined.

Playoffs

Most Points Per Game (min. 25 games)
33.4 by Michael Jordan (179 games)

Most Points in a Game
63 by Michael Jordan

Most 50 Point Games
8 by Michael Jordan

Most 40 Point Games
38 by Michael Jordan

Most 30 Point Games
109 by Michael Jordan

Most 20 Point Games
174 by Michael Jordan (he played 179 playoff games and scored under 20 only 5 times)
-Highest PER Efficiency Playoffs: 28.59


Most Career 40+ Point Games in Playoffs History

1. MJ = 38
2. West = 20
3. Baylor = 14
4. Wilt = 13
5. Shaq = 12
6. Hakeem = 11
Kobe = 11
Iverson = 10
9. Lebron = 9


Most Career 30+ Point Games in Playoffs History
MJ - 109
Kobe - 81
Kareem - 75
West -74
Baylor - 60



MJ:
NBA Regular-season records Michael Jordan holds:
-Most seasons leading league in scoring: 10
-Highest scoring average, career: 30.12ppg
-Most consecutive points, one game: 23
-Most seasons leading league in field goals made: 10
-Most consecutive gms in double figures in scoring:
866
-Most consecutive seasons leading PER: 7
-Highest career PER: 27.91
-Oldest player to score 40+ points: age 40 (43 pts)
-Oldest player to score 50+ points: age 38 (51 pts)
NBA Regular-season records Michael Jordan shares:
-Most consecutive seasons leading league in scoring:
7 (tied with Wilt Chamberlain)
-Most consecutive seasons, 2,000 plus points: 11 (Tied
with Malone)

NBA Playoff records Michael Jordan holds:
-Highest scoring average, career: 33.4ppg
-Record Total points: 5987
-Record Most FTS made: 1463
-Most points playoffs, one-game: 63
-Most points playoffs, three-game series: 135 (vs.
Miami, 1992)
-Most Points playoffs, five-game series: 226 (vs.
Cleveland, 1988)
-Most field goals made playoffs, three-game series:
53 (vs. Miami, 1992)
-Most field goals made playoffs, five-game series: 86
(vs. Philadelphia, 1990)
-Most field goals made playoffs, six-game series: 101
(vs. Phoenix, 1993)
-Most consecutive 50pt games: 2
-Most consecutive 45pt games: 3
-Most consecutive games, 20 plus points: 60
-Most free throws made, one quarter: 13
-Most free throws attempted, one quarter: 14
-Most 50 point games: 8
-Most 40 point games: 39
-Most consecutive points: 23
NBA Playoff records Michael Jordan shares:
-Most field goals, in a game: 24 (vs. Cleveland, May
1, 1988; tied with two others)
-Most three-point field goals made, one half: 6
(first half vs. Portland, June 3, 1992; tied with four
others)
NBA Finals records Michael Jordan holds:
- Highest Scoring average: 33.6
-Most points, six-game series: 246 (vs. Phoenix,
1993)
-Most field goals made, five-game series: 63 (vs.
L.A. Lakers, 1991)
-Most field goals made, six-game series: 101 (vs.
Phoenix, 1993)
-Most steals, five-game series: 14 (vs. L.A. Lakers,
1991)
-Highest scoring average, one series: 41.0 (vs.
Phoenix, 1993)
-Most consecutive games, 40-plus points: 4 (June 11,
1993 to June 18, 1993)
-Most consecutive 30 point games: 9
-Most consecutive games, 20-plus points: 29 (June 22,
1991 to June 1997)
-Most points, one-half: 35 (vs. Portland, June 3,
1992)
-Most consecutive field goals: 13 (Vs. LA)
-Most consecutive points: 23 (Vs. Seattle)
-Most Finals MVPs: 6



Conclusion: MJ still owns the most
scoring records as well as ALMOST ALL THE PLAYOFF
Records. Take a look at the all time scoring feats at
the bottom. MJ has 21 of them and the most important
ones, Wilt has 16, Kobe has 1.
Here's a list of ALL-TIME SCORING RECORDS.
- Highest career scoring average: MJ 30.12
- Highest career playoff scoring average: MJ 33.4
- Highest career Finals scoring average: MJ 33.6
- Highest single season scoring average: Wilt 50.4
- Highest single series playoff average: West 46.3
- Highest single Finals series average: MJ 41.0
- Most seasons leading league in scoring: MJ 10
- Most consecutive seasons leading in scoring: MJ,
Wilt tied at 7
- Most 50 point games: Wilt 118
- Most 50 point games playoffs: MJ 8
- Most 40 point games: Wilt 271
- Most 40 point games playoffs: MJ 42
- Most consecutive 60 point games: Wilt 4
- Most consecutive 50 point games: Wilt 7
- Most consecutive 50 point games in playoffs: MJ 2
- Most consecutive 45 point games: Wilt 7
- Most consecutive 45 point games playoffs: MJ 3
- Most consecutive 40 point games: Wilt 14
- Most consecutive 40 point games rookie: AI 5
- Most consecutive 40 point games playoffs: West 6
- Most consecutive 40 point games finals: MJ 4
- Most consecutive 35 point games: Wilt 33
- Most consecutive 30 point games: Wilt 65
- Most consecutive 30 point games playoffs: Elgin 11
- Most consecutive 30 point games finals: MJ 9
- Most consecutive 20 point games: Wilt 126
- Most consecutive 20 point games playoffs: MJ 60
- Most consecutive 20 point games finals: MJ 35
- Most consecutive double figures scoring: MJ 866
- Most consecutive points in one game: MJ 23
- Most consecutive points in one game playoffs: MJ 23
- Highest scoring game: Wilt 100
- Highest scoring game playoffs: MJ 63
- Highest scoring game finals: Elgin 61
- Highest scoring game rookie: Wilt 58
- Highest scoring all-star game: Wilt 42
- Highest scoring all-rookie game: Kobe 31
- Most points in 3 quarters: Wilt 69
- Most points in one half: Wilt 59
- Most points one half playoffs: Sleepy Floyd 39
- Most points in one half finals: MJ 35
- Most points one half all-star game: Rice 24
- Most points in one quarter: Gervin 33
- Most points in one quarter playoffs: Sleepy Floyd 29
- Most points in one quarter finals: Isiah 25
- Most points in one quarter all-star game: Rice 20
- Most points in OT: Arenas 16
- Most points in OT playoffs: Drexler 13
- Most points in OT in finals: Havlicek, Laimbeer,
Ainge tied at 9
- Oldest to score 50: MJ 51 at age 38
- Oldest to score 40: MJ 43 at age 40

http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/basketball/nba/2002/playoffs/top_individual_points/
Top Playoff Single-Game Scoring Performances
Player Team Opponent Total Date
Michael Jordan Chicago at Boston 63 April 20, 1986
Elgin Baylor L.A. Lakers at Boston 61 April 14, 1962
Wilt Chamberlain Philadelphia Syracuse 56 March 22, 1962
Michael Jordan Chicago at Miami 56 April 29, 1992
Charles Barkley Phoenix at Golden State 56 May 4, 1994
Michael Jordan Chicago Cleveland 55 May 1, 1988
Michael Jordan Chicago Phoenix 55 June 16, 1993
Michael Jordan Chicago Washington 55 April 27, 1997
John Havlicek Boston Atlanta 54 April 1, 1973
Michael Jordan Chicago New York 54 May 31, 1993
Allen Iverson Philadelphia Toronto 54 May 9, 2001
Wilt Chamberlain Philadelphia Syracuse 53 March 14, 1960
Jerry West L.A. Lakers Boston 53 April 23, 1969
Jerry West L.A. Lakers Baltimore 52 April 5, 1965
Allen Iverson Philadelphia Toronto 52 May 16, 2001
Sam Jones Boston at New York 51 March 28, 1967
Eric Floyd Golden State L.A. Lakers 51 May 10, 1987
Bob Cousy Boston Syracuse 50* March 21, 1953
Bob Petit St. Louis Boston 50 April 12, 1958
Wilt Chamberlain Philadelphia at Boston 50 March 22, 1950
Wilt Chamberlain San Francisco St. Louis 50 April 10, 1964
Billy Cunningham Philadelphia Milwaukee 50 April 1, 1970
Bob McAdoo Buffalo Washington 50 April 18, 1975
Dominique Wilkins Atlanta Detroit 50 April 19, 1986
Michael Jordan Chicago Cleveland 50 April 28, 1988
Michael Jordan Chicago Cleveland 50^ May 5, 1989
Karl Malone Utah Seattle 50 April 22, 2000
Vince Carter Toronto Philadelphia 50 May 11, 2001
*4 overtimes
^overtime


NBA PLAYOFFS HIGH SCORING GAME BY YEAR
1946-47 - 37 Joe Fulks, PHW vs CHI at PHW 16Apr47
1947-48 - 34 Connie Simmons, BLT vs NYK at BLT 27Mar48
1948-49 - 42 George Mikan, MPL vs WSC 4Apr49 @ MPL
1949-50 - 40 George Mikan, MPL vs SYR at MPL 23Apr50
1950-51 - 41 George Mikan, MPL vs IDS at MPL 21Mar51
1951-52 - 47 George Mikan, MPL at ROC 29Mar52
1952-53 - 50 Bob Cousy, BOS vs SYR at BOS 21Mar53
1953-54 - 36 Dolph Schayes, SYR at NYK 21Mar54
1954-55 - 32 Bill Sharman, BOS at SYR 24Mar55
1955-56 - 43 Neil Johnson, PHW at SYR 25Mar56
1956-57 - 42 Bob Leonard, MPL vs STL at MPL 25Mar57
1957-58 - 50 Bob Pettit, STL vs BOS at STL 12Apr58
1958-59 - 40 Cliff Hagan, STL vs MPL at STL 21Mar59
1959-60 - 53 Wilt Chamberlain, PHW vs SYR at PHW 14Mar60
1960-61 - 47 Elgin Baylor, LAL at DET 18Mar61
............... 47 Elgin Baylor, LAL at STL 27Mar61
1961-62 - 61 Elgin Baylor, LAL at BOS 14Apr62
1962-63 - 47 Sam Jones, BOS vs CIN at BOS 10Apr63
1963-64 - 50 Wilt Chamberlain, SFW vs STL at SFW 10Apr64
1964-65 - 52 Jerry West, LAL vs BAL at LAL 3Apr65
1965-66 - 46 Wilt Chamberlain, PHI vs BOS at PHI 12Apr66
1966-67 - 55 Rick Barry, SFW vs PHI at SFW 18Apr67
1967-68 - 46 Zelmo Beaty, STL vs SFW 23Mar68 @ STL
1968-69 - 53 Jerry West, LAL vs BOS at LAL 23Apr69
1969-70 - 50 Billy Cunningham, PHI vs MIL at PHI 1Apr70
1970-71 - 39 Gail Goodrich, LAL at CHI 28Mar71
1971-72 - 43 John Havlicek BOS at ATL 31Mar72
1972-73 - 54 John Havlicek, BOS vs ATL at BOS 1Apr73
1973-74 - 44 Bob McAdoo, BUF vs BOS 6Apr74 at BUF
............... 44 Kareem Abdul-Jabbar, MIL at CHI 18Apr74
1974-75 - 50 Bob McAdoo, BUF vs WAS at BUF 18Apr75
1975-76 - 45 Fred Brown, SEA vs PHO at SEA 15Apr76
1976-77 - 45 Kareem Abdul-Jabbar, LAL vs GSW at LAL 29Apr77
1977-78 - 46 George Gervin, SAN vs WAS at SAN 18Apr78
1978-79 - 42 George Gervin, SAN vs WAS at SAN 11May79
............... 42 George Gervin, SAN at WAS 18May79
1979-80 - 44 George Gervin, SAN vs HOU at SAN 4Apr80
1980-81 - 42 Calvin Murphy, HOU at SAN 17Apr81
............... 42 Moses Malone, HOU vs KCK at HOU 26Apr81
1981-82 - 39 George Gervin, SAN vs LAL at SAN 14May82
............... 39 Andrew Toney, PHI vs BOS at PHI 16May82
1982-83 - 42 Alex English, DEN vs PHO at PHO 24Apr83
............... 42 George Gervin, SAN at DEN 26Apr83
1983-84 - 46 Bernard King, NYK at DET 19Apr84
............... 46 Bernard King, NYK vs DET at NYK 22Apr84
1984-85 - 43 Rolando Blackman, DAL vs POR at DAL 18Apr85
............... 43 Larry Bird, BOS vs DET at BOS 8May85
1985-86 - 63 Michael Jordan, CHI at BOS 20Apr86
1986-87 - 51 Sleepy Floyd, GSW vs LAL at GSW 10May87
1987-88 - 55 Michael Jordan, CHI vs CLE at CHI 1May88
1988-89 - 50 Michael Jordan, CHI vs CLE at CHI 5May89
1989-90 - 49 Michael Jordan, CHI at PHI 11May90
1990-91 - 46 Michael Jordan, CHI at PHI 10May91
1991-92 - 56 Michael Jordan, CHI at MIA 29Apr92
1992-93 - 55 Michael Jordan, CHI vs PHO at CHI 16Jun93
1993-94 - 56 Charles Barkley, PHO at GSW 4May94
1994-95 - 48 Michael Jordan, CHI at CHA 28Apr95
1995-96 - 46 Michael Jordan, CHI at NYK 11May96
1996-97 - 55 Michael Jordan, CHI vs WAS at CHI 27Apr97
1997-98 - 45 Michael Jordan, CHI at UTA 14Jun98
1998-99 - 37 Tim Duncan, SAN at LAL 22May99
............... 37 Scottie Pippen, HOU vs LAL at HOU 13May99
............... 37 Shaquille O'Neal, LAL vs HOU at HOU 15May99
............... 37 Allen Iverson, PHI vs ORL at PHI 15May99
1999-00 - 50 Karl Malone, UTA vs SEA at UTA 22Apr00

-----

ALL-TIME HIGHEST SCORING AVERAGES, NBA PLAYOFFS
Jerry West, LAL vs BAL, 1965..... 46.3
Michael Jordan, CHI vs CLE, 1988..... 45.2
Michael Jordan, CHI vs MIA, 1992..... 45.0

ALL-TIME HIGHEST SCORING AVERAGES, NBA CHAMPIONSHIP SERIES/NBA FINALS
Michael Jordan, CHI vs PHO, 1993..... 41.0
Rick Barry, SFW vs PHI, 1965..... 40.8
Elgin Baylor, LAL vs BOS, 1962..... 40.6


Also MJ has 6 series in the playoffs over 40+ ppg.
And for people using the era difference, if that is the case why is Iverson 2nd all time in PPG in the PLAYOFFS and 3rd all time in PPG in the season?


http://www.nba.com/statistics/encyc/Player.jsp
PPG All Time (http://www.nba.com/statistics/default_all_time_leaders/AllTimeLeadersPPGQuery.html?topic=4&stat=0)

With respect to Kobe, he is my boy and all, but seriously he never has been as good as MJ was.
First off Kobe's best PER is as good as MJ's career average PER.
Next off is the following:
Also, Kobe in the finals. This is how they performed in the finals.
http://www.usatoday.com/sports/columnist/zillgitt/2004-06-15-zillgitt_x.htm
http://www.usatoday.com/sports/columnist/zillgitt/2004-06-15-zillgitt_x.htm
In 35 Finals games, Jordan averaged 33.6 points, 6.0 rebounds and 6.0 assists a game on 48% FG
In 37 Finals games, Bryant has averaged 25.3 points, 5.7 rebounds and 5.1 assists a game on 41% FG

Also MJ has 5 finals in the top 15 all time with all 6 in the top 26 and Kobe has 0 finals performances in the top 50 and has a all time top 10 worst finals performance.
http://proxy.espn.go.com/nba/playoffs2008/columns/story?columnist=hollinger_john&page=FinalsPerformances-2



http://www.usatoday.com/sports/columnist/zillgitt/2004-06-15-zillgitt_x.htm
Here were the requirements
NBA ALL-TIME LEADERS:
(All statistical records + playoff records + career averages + playoff averages + MVPs + Finals MVPs + Rings + All-1st teams + All-1st Defensive Teams + All-star games + All-star MVPS)
This is how it broke down each category:
http://www.usatoday.com/sports/basketball/nba/2003-02-06-dupree-team_x.htm

This is how it broke down each category:
NBA MVP awards won (five points each)
NBA championships won (five points each)
All-Star Games selected to play in (one point each)
All-NBA first-team selections (two points each)
All-defensive first team (one point each)
NBA Finals MVP awards (two points each)
All-Star MVP awards (one point each)
Individual statistical titles (two points each) — restricted to points, rebounds, assists, field goal percentage and free throw percentage, the stats the league has used the longest
Career averages (six points each) — if a player is the NBA career leader in scoring average, rebounds, assists, field goal percentage or free throw percentage
Career playoff averages (five points each) — for each category the player leads

That was the criteria used
1st Place: MJ, 149 total points
2nd Place: Wilt, 124 total points
3rd Place: Bill, 118 total points
4th Place: Jabbar, 114 total points
5th Place: Magic, 102 total points

Now adding up the current players you get (Active Players):
1st Place: Shaq, 87 total points
2nd Place: KB, 77 total points
3rd Place: Tim, 75 total points


All of these players below lost with either Homecourt Advantage, Top seed, Better Record or Same RecordIf year is mentioned then it means they lost with HCA. Otherwise top seed or identical record is mentioned


Kareem (lost in ’72-73, ’73-74 (lost game 7 of the NBA Finals at home vs Boston), ’76-77, ’80-81, ’85-86)
Wilt Chamberlain (lost in ’60-61, ’65-66, ’67-68 ((lost game 7 of the ECF at home vs Boston), ’68-69 ((lost game 7 of the NBA Finals at home vs Boston), ’72-73)
Bill Russell (lost in 1958)
Magic Johnson (lost in ’80-81, ’85-86, ’89-90)
Larry Bird (lost in ’79-80, ’81-82, ’82-83, ’84-85, ’87-88, '89-90, '90-91)
Shaq (lost in ’93-94, ’94-95, ’03-04, '04-05, '09-10)
Hakeem (lost in ’84-85, ’86-87, '98-99 same record and in 1993 with same record against Seattle)
Duncan (lost in ’00-01, ’03-04, '05-06, '08-09, '10-11)
Oscar Robertson (lost in ’61-62, ’64-65, ’72-73, ’73-74)
Jerry West (lost in ’68-69, ’72-73)
Dr J (lost in '81-82, '83-84)
Moses Malone (lost in '83-84, '88-89)
Karl Malone and John Stockton (lost in '97-98, '00-01, '94-95)
Garnett (lost in '02-03, '03-04)
Barkley (lost in '92-93, '94-95, '98-99)
Pippen (lost in '98-99 with identical record)
John Havlicek (lost in 1972-1973, '74-75 (same record)
Kobe (lost in '03-04 with HCA and '10-11 with HCA in a sweep)
Patrick Ewing (lost in '92-93, '94-95)
David Robinson (lost in '93-94, '94-95, '95-96)
Bob Pettit (lost in '58-59)
George Mikan (lost in '50-51)
Isiah Thomas (lost in '83-84)
Willis Reed (lost in '68-69, '70-71)
Walt Frazier (lost in '68-69, '70-71)
Rick Barry (lost in '75-76)
Adrian Dantley (lost in '83-84)
Gary Payton (lost in '93-94, '97-98)
Lebron (lost in '08-09, '09-10 with best record both years, '10-11)
Dwyane Wade (lost in '04-05, '10-11)
Now I might as missed some years for a few players, but I thought that was interesting. The only top 20 player Ever who never lost a series with either the Same Record, Higher Seed, Top Seed or Home court Advantage was Jordan. He was 25-0 in all with HCA and Top Seed along with same record and 24-0 in series with HCA



Also consider the following:
Is 18% a good percentage?
In what you might ask... 18% winning percentage...
Pretty awful right?
Well in 60 years of NBA Basketball only 11 league leading scorers have won a championship... That's 18.333333%...
Their names are: Shaquille O'Neal, Michael Jordan, Kareem Abdul Jabbar, George Mikan and some guy named Joe Fulks...
Most of these players were dominant Centers, who did more than just score.
That means that non center players who led the league in scoring have won in an amazing 10% of the time.. and only one player did it... Michael Jordan. In one era. That phenomenon of nature who won six...
10% winning historically!!! 10 PERCENT!!!
I will argue that the odds are against a high scoring guard from winning it all.
Would you?
I will argue that who ever is the only one to do that should be considered a truly great.. would you?
I will say that the way to go is to build a team in which you get many other good options to score, a balanced attack?

http://www.basketball-reference.com/about/glossary.html


MJ has led in Offensive Win Shares 8x, and was 2nd 3x.



OWS

Offensive Win Shares (available since the 1977-78 season in NBA); please see the article Calculating Win Shares for more information.

Offensive Win Shares are credited to players based on Dean Oliver's Offensive Ratings

1.) Offensive Win Shares

1984-85 NBA 10.3 (2)
1986-87 NBA 11.9 (2)
1987-88 NBA 15.2 (1)
1988-89 NBA 14.6 (1)
1989-90 NBA 14.7 (1)
1990-91 NBA 14.9 (1)
1991-92 NBA 12.1 (1)
1992-93 NBA 12.0 (1)
1995-96 NBA 14.2 (1)
1996-97 NBA 13.3 (1)
1997-98 NBA 10.4 (2)


2.) MJ has led in Win Shares 9x, and was 2nd 2x


WS
Win Shares (available since the 1977-78 season in NBA); please see the article Calculating Win Shares for more information.

A Win Share is worth one-third of a team win. Win Shares are assigned to players based on their offense, defense, and playing time.

Win Shares
1984-85 NBA 14.0 (2)
1986-87 NBA 16.9 (1)
1987-88 NBA 21.2 (1)
1988-89 NBA 19.8 (1)
1989-90 NBA 19.0 (1)
1990-91 NBA 20.3 (1)
1991-92 NBA 17.7 (1)
1992-93 NBA 17.2 (1)
1995-96 NBA 20.4 (1)
1996-97 NBA 18.3 (1)
1997-98 NBA 15.8 (2)


3.)

Win Shares Per 48 Minutes

1984-85 NBA 0.213 (3)
1986-87 NBA 0.247 (2)
1987-88 NBA 0.308 (1)
1988-89 NBA 0.292 (1)
1989-90 NBA 0.285 (1)
1990-91 NBA 0.321 (1)
1991-92 NBA 0.274 (1)
1992-93 NBA 0.270 (1)
1995-96 NBA 0.317 (1)
1996-97 NBA 0.283 (1)
1997-98 NBA 0.238 (3)
Career NBA 0.251 (1)
Career 0.251 (1)


Also for the playoffs MJ leads in:
Also Jordan has led in PER 7x, Win Shares 8x, OWS 8x, WSAA 8x in the season.
-Highest PER Efficiency Playoffs: 28.59
-Most Offensive Win Shares Playoffs - 27.32
-Most Win Shares Playoffs - 39.76

Also MJ has led in PER 6x in the playoffs, OWS 6x and Win Shares 7x in the playoffs.
Kobe has yet to lead in any of them in any given season


In my mind MJ is the GOAT, and I provided ample evidence of why I feel that way, but it is really close as guys like Kareem, Russell, Wilt, Magic and Bird on right their in the discussion, but when you consider how good MJ was on both ends of the court and how efficient he was as a player and the fact that he was a guard that in itself helps his case much more.
Also let's not forget MJ is currently the only player to average 30+ ppg for a career in the playoffs and he is the only one to do so in the season, playoffs and finals and he has the highest average in each of them and his has the most playoff points ever.

Here was a clip in 1993 where even Jerry West mentioned MJ was the best
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m1mFE_ekV7E&mode=related&search=

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZquLVr3MeGk&feature=related
@ the 1:30 mark, Dick Stockton refers to Jerry West mentioning that MJ was the greatest ever period.

Pat Riley mentions that Jordan will always be considered the best
http://youtube.com/watch?v=0565oawy9Ak

7:55 mark Isiah Thomas debates on why MJ was the best over Wilt
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nP-Rm2atzU0


4:59 mark --> Magic Johnson calls Michael Jordan the "best ever" in 1993
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N6og_pOVi2w&feature=related


http://www.usatoday.com/sports/basketball/nba/2003-02-06-dupree-team_x.htm

Magic Johnson says there is no debate.
"Michael is the greatest player ever, and Bill Russell is the greatest winner ever and always will be

Hawkeye15
02-16-2012, 09:54 AM
there it is JB hahaha. I was waiting for your Tokken post on Jordan.

Case closed?

Cub_StuckinSTL
02-16-2012, 12:39 PM
How many files does Jb have saved for threads like this?

Hellcrooner
02-16-2012, 01:19 PM
Magic is GOAT??? LOL...yall cant be serious!! Magic walked onto a hall of fame team straight out of college...Jordan on the other hand had to struggle, get be beat down constantly from the Celtics and the Detroit Bad Boys for years before he overcame with getting some assistance from Pippen and Co.... and he got his first ring by kickin Magic and Co. off the throne!!!

Jordan is GOAT!!! HANDS DOWN....in your discussions and evaluations of the topic at hand... please name me one other basketball player in the discussion of GOAT who is 6-0 in Championships....JORDAN NEVER WENT TO THE FINALS AND LOST...Again....name me another who won 3 straight...took a holiday for 2 years...and came back and won 3 more....are u serious????...lol...JORDAN ALL DAY!!!!


Tell me, when did Jordan face a team in the finals with the likes of D Johnson ( hof) Walton (hof) Ainge, Bird( Hof top 5player ever), Mchale ( Hof top 3-5 pf ever), Parish ( Hof) , or a team with a top 3-5 Center ever in moses malone + probably the best or at lest top 3 defensive player ever in bobby jones + a top 15 player ever like Dr J .
Or thomas ( hof), Dumars( Hof), Aguirre( as) Lambier ( as), rodman ( Hof) etc etc.

Sure he met those celtics and pistons often int he 80s.

Know what? he failed against them time after time during the 84-91 span and only was able to take care of them when they were in their late 30s and on a complete decline and with the help of the best coach ever on his side.

Wich remembers me, what was the recod of the bulls drop off when he retired to play baseball? 2-3 games in teh regular season? Pipps bulls were also ROBBED of getting to conference finals that year against theknicks by refs.

Gritz
02-16-2012, 01:22 PM
If I played back in the day nobody would have rings

I call it the ski mask way

mRc08
02-16-2012, 01:24 PM
everyone's entitled totheir own opinion.

However, ask any player, coach, writer, etc and they all say jordan. Its not to short anyone else, but that is what they all say

Cfrey
02-16-2012, 01:25 PM
didnt magic go to 9 finals in 11 years??

thats crazy

JordansBulls
02-16-2012, 02:26 PM
Tell me, when did Jordan face a team in the finals with the likes of D Johnson ( hof) Walton (hof) Ainge, Bird( Hof top 5player ever), Mchale ( Hof top 3-5 pf ever), Parish ( Hof) , or a team with a top 3-5 Center ever in moses malone + probably the best or at lest top 3 defensive player ever in bobby jones + a top 15 player ever like Dr J .
Or thomas ( hof), Dumars( Hof), Aguirre( as) Lambier ( as), rodman ( Hof) etc etc.

Sure he met those celtics and pistons often int he 80s.

Know what? he failed against them time after time during the 84-91 span and only was able to take care of them when they were in their late 30s and on a complete decline and with the help of the best coach ever on his side.

Wich remembers me, what was the recod of the bulls drop off when he retired to play baseball? 2-3 games in teh regular season? Pipps bulls were also ROBBED of getting to conference finals that year against theknicks by refs.


To provide context I will include the performance of the team over the previous three seasons, since there is not much turnover over such a short span. It would also show whether a particular team was a one year wonder.

Whenever a team tied the record of another team I gave the ranking to the team I am looking at. For instance, the Bulls were tied with three teams with 50 wins in 1988 but I listed them 9th.

I define MVP caliber players as players who at some point in their career finished in the top 5 in MVP voting.

Part I: 1991-93

1991 Los Angeles Lakers

58-24, #2 in the West, #3 in the league
Ranked #5 in offensive rating, #5 in defensive rating

Past regular season performance: 63-19 (#1 in the West, #1 in the league), 57-25 (#1 in the West, #2 overall), 62-20 (#1 in the West, #1 in the league)
Past playoff performance: lost in second round, lost in NBA finals, won NBA finals (they also won the championship the previous year)

Personnel

All-stars in 1990-91: Magic Johnson, James Worthy
HOFers: Magic Johnson, James Worthy
Players who were all-stars at some point in their career: Magic Johnson (12x), James Worthy (7x), Vlade Divac (1x), AC Green (1x—1990)
Other key players: Byron Scott, Sam Perkins

MVP caliber players: Magic Johnson. He was a 3-time MVP, was the MVP the previous season and finished second in MVP voting in 1991. Johnson also finished second in 1985 and was third on four other occasions.
All-NBA players: Magic Johnson (1st team), James Worthy (3rd team)
All-defensive players: None

Magic Johnson ranked second in the league in assists that season with 12.5. He was 4th in PER, 3rd in offensive win shares, 4th in overall win shares, and 7th in offensive rating. Vlade Divac was 17th in blocks.

Magic Johnson is considered by some to be the overall GOAT and by most to be the GOAT pg. In 1991 Magic was considered by most to be either the best player in the league or second behind Michael Jordan. He was clearly the best player at his position in 1991.

Leading scorers: James Worthy 21.4, Magic Johnson 19.4, Byron Scott 14.5, Sam Perkins 13.5, Vlade Divac 11.2
Leading rebounders: Vlade Divac 8.1, Sam Perkins 7.4, Magic Johnson 7.0
Leading passers: Magic Johnson 12.5 assists, James Worthy 3.5, Larry Drew 2.5

How they got there

They swept the 52-30 Hakeem Olajuwon Rockets in the first round, they defeated the 44-38 “run TMC” Golden State Warriors 4-1 in the semifinals, and beat the the Portland Trailblazers 4-2 in the WCF. Portland had the best record in the league.

1991 Detroit Pistons

They were the reigning two-time NBA champions, and reigning three-time Eastern conference champions. They went 50-32 in 1991, giving them the #3 seed. They made the ECF after defeating the 43-39 Dominique Wilkins Atlanta Hawks 3-2 in the first round, and beating the #2 seed, the 56-26 Larry Bird/Kevin McHale/Reggie Lewis/Robert Parish Celtics in six games in the ECSF.

They ranked 4th in defensive rating, 12th in offensive rating.

All-stars in 1990-91: Isiah Thomas, Joe Dumars
HOFers: Isiah Thomas, Joe Dumars, Dennis Rodman?
Players who were all-stars at some point in their career: Isiah Thomas (12x), Joe Dumars (6x), Dennis Rodman (2x—1990 and 1992)
Other key players: Bill Laimbeer, Vinnie Johnson, Mark Aguirre

MVP caliber players: Isiah Thomas. Isiah finished 5th in MVP voting in 1984.
All-NBA players: Joe Dumars (3rd team)
All-Defensive players: Dennis Rodman (1st team), Joe Dumars (2nd team)

Joe Dumars was 20th in scoring, 19th in offensive win shares.
Dennis Rodman was 2nd in rebounding, 7th in defensive win shares.
Isiah Thomas was 6th in assists,
Bill Laimbeer was 14th in rebounding, 14th in defensive rating, 14th in defensive win shares.
John Salley was 19th in blocks, 9th in defensive rating.

Isiah Thomas is generally considered to be a top 5 all-time PG. Dennis Rodman is considered by some to be the GOAT rebounder. Isiah was probably the second best PG in the league in 1991 behind Magic.

1992 Portland Trailblazers

57-25, #1 in the West and #2 overall
7th in offensive rating, 2nd in defensive rating

Past regular season performance: 63-19 (#1 in the West, #1 overall), 59-23 (#2 in the West, #2 overall), 39-43 (#8 in the West, #18 overall)
Past playoff performance: lost in the WCF, lost in the NBA finals, lost in the first round

Personnel

All-stars in 1990-91: Clyde Drexler, Terry Porter, Kevin Duckworth
HOFers: Clyde Drexler
Players who were all-stars at some point in their career: Clyde Drexler (10x), Buck Williams (3x), Terry Porter (2x), Kevin Duckworth (2x), Danny Ainge (1x), Cliff Robinson (1x)
Other key players: Jerome Kersey

Talk about talent! Half the team was at some point an all-star!

MVP caliber players: Clyde Drexler. Drexler finished 2nd in MVP voting in 1992. He was 5th in 1988.
All-NBA players: Clyde Drexler (1st team)
All-Defensive players: Buck Williams (2nd team)

Clyde Drexler was 4th in scoring, 20th in assists, 19th in steals, 5th in PER, 15th in defensive rating, 7th in offensive win shares, 9th in defensive win shares, 6th in overall win shares

At the time some people considered Clyde Drexler to be the second best player in the NBA, as a sort of MJ-lite. He was the consensus #2 at his position at the time. He is generally considered to be one of the top 5 SG's of all-time.

Leading scorers: Drexler 25.0, Porter 18.1, Kersey 12.6, Robinson 12.4, Williams 11.3
Leading rebounders: Williams 8.8, Kersey 8.2, Drexler 6.6
Leading passers: Drexler 6.7, Porter 5.8, Kersey 3.2

How they got there

They beat the 43-39 defending Western conference champion Los Angeles Lakers 3-1 in the first round (Magic Johnson retired before the season began), the 53-29 Phoenix Suns 4-1 in the WCSF, and the 55-27 Malone/Stockon Jazz 4-2 in the WCF.

1992 Cleveland Cavaliers

57-25, #2 in the East, #2 overall
#2 in offensive rating, #11 in defensive rating

This team was 33-49, 42-40,l and 57-25 in the previous three seasons. It had never made it past the first round during this time.

All-stars in 1991-92: Brad Daughtery, Mark Price
HOFers:
Players who were all-stars at some point in their career: Brad Daughtery (5x), Mark Price (4x), Larry Nance (3x, including 1993)
Other key players: John “Hot Rod” Williams, Craig Ehlo

MVP caliber players: None. Price did finish 7th in MVP voting in 1992 and Daughtery was 11th but they were never serious MVP candidates at any points in their careers.
All-NBA players: Brad Daughtery (3rd team), Mark Price (3rd team)
All-Defensive players: Larry Nance (2nd team)

Brad Daughtery was 13th in scoring, 13th in rebounding, 7th in PER, 8th in offensive rating, 9th in offensive win shares, 14th overall in win shares
Mark Price was 10th in assists, 10th in PER, 7th in offensive rating, 13th in offensive win shares
Larry Nance was 3rd in blocks, 12th in PER, 4th in offensive rating, 10th in offensive win shares, 15th in defensive win shares, 9th in overall win shares

Daughtery and Price were generally considered to be among the top 5 players at their positions in 1992. Daughtery was the third all-NBA center, although it can be argued that Hakeem Olajuwon was still better than him in 1992. These two were likely hall of famers but had their careers either ended prematurely by injury or reduced to a role player due to them.

1993 Phoenix Suns

62-20, #1 in the West, #1 in the league
#1 in offensive rating, #9 in defensive rating

Past regular season performance: 53-29, 55-27, 54-28
Past playoff performance: lost in WCSF, lost in the first round, lost in the WCF

Personnel

All-stars in 1992-93: Charles Barkley, Dan Majerle
HOFers: Charles Barkley
Players who were all-stars at some point in their career: Charles Barkley (11x), Tom Chambers (4x), Kevin Johnson (3x, including 1994), Dan Majerle (3x), Cedric Ceballos (1x, 1995), Danny Ainge (1x)
Other key players: Richard Dumas

Half the team was all-star level at some point!

MVP caliber players: Charles Barkley. He was the 1993 MVP. He also finished 2nd in MVP voting in 1990 and 4th in 1991 and 1988.
All-NBA players: Charles Barkley (1st team)
All-defensive players: Dan Majerle (2nd team)

Charles Barkley was 4th in scoring, 6th in rebounding, 4th in PER, 7th in offensive rating, 16th in defensive rating, 3rd in offensive win shares, 10th in defensive win shares, and 4th in overall win shares.
Kevin Johnson was 11th in assists.
Dan Majerle was 17th in steals, 8th in offensive rating, 13th in offensive win shares, and 14th in overall win shares.

Charles Barkley was considered by many to be the second best player in the NBA in 1993. He is a consensus top 5 all-time PF, usually placing third or fourth on most people's lists.

Kevin Johnson was generally considered to be a top 5 PG during his prime. Johnson was a 20-22/10-12 guy when healthy. However, he was not healthy for much of 1992-93.

Dan Majerle was an elite defender in his prime.

Leading scorers: Barkley 25.6, Majerle 16.9, Johnson 16.1, Dumas 15.8, Ceballos 12.8 (Chambers and Ainge chipped in 12 each)
Leading rebounders: Barkley 12.6, West 5.6, Ceballos 5.5
Leading passers: Johnson 7.8, Barkley 5.1, Majerle 3.8

How they got there

They beat the 39-43 Lakers 3-2 in the first round, the 49-33 David Robinson Spurs 4-2, and the #3 seed (they tied for the second best record but Houston won the tiebreaker) Seattle Supersonics in 7 games in the WCF. This Seattle team was led by a young Shawn Kemp, a young Gary Payton, and Ricky Pierce.

1993 New York Knicks

60-22, #1 in the East, #2 overall
#22 in offensive rating, #1 in defensive rating

This team was 51-31, 39-43, and 45-37 in the previous three seasons. It twice made the ECSF during this span, including taking the eventual champion Bulls to 7 games in 1992.

All-stars in 1992-93: Patrick Ewing
HOFers: Patrick Ewing
Players who were all-stars at some point in their career: Patrick Ewing (11x), Rolando Blackman (4x), John Starks (1x, 1994), Charles Oakley (1x, 1994), Anthony Mason (1x), Doc Rivers (1x)
Other key players: Charles Smith

MVP caliber players: Patrick Ewing. Ewing placed in the top 5 in MVP voting six times in his career, including finishing 4th in 1993. He curiously never finished higher than 4th in the MVP race, though.

All-NBA players: Patrick Ewing (2nd team)
All-Defensive players: John Starks (2nd team)

Patrick Ewing was 6th in scoring, 7th in rebounding, 10th in blocks, 13th in PER, #1 in defensive rating, #1 in defensive win shares, and 12th in overall win shares.
John Starks was 17th in defensive rating, 17th in defensive win shares,
Charles Oakley was 3rd in defensive rating, 11th in defensive win shares

Patrick Ewing is generally considered to be one of the top 10 centers of all-time. In 1993 he was arguably a top 5 player overall and probably the second best center in the league then.[/QUOTE]







1996-1998

1996 Seattle Supersonics

64-18, #1 in the West, #2 in the league
Ranked #7 in offensive rating, #2 in defensive rating

Past regular season performance: 57-25 (#4 in the West, #4 overall), 63-19 (#1 in the West, #1 overall), 55-27 (#2 in the West, #4 overall)
Past playoff performance: lost in first round, lost in first round, lost in WCF

Personnel

All-stars in 1995-96: Shawn Kemp, Gary Payton
HOFers: Gary Payton
Players who were all-stars at some point in their career: Gary Payton (9x), Shawn Kemp (6x), Detlef Scrempf (3x, including 1995 and 1997), Hersey Hawkins (1x)

Other key players: Sam Perkins

MVP caliber players: Gary Payton. He finished 3rd in MVP voting in 1998. He was also 6th five other teams, including 1996.
All-NBA players: Shawn Kemp (2nd team), Gary Payton (2nd team)
All-defensive players: Gary Payton (1st team), defensive player of the year

Payton was arguably the best PG in the NBA in 1996. He was also the DPOY that year. Kemp was a top 3 player at his position (Malone, Barkley). Schrempf was an all-star level player who made the all-star team in the year prior to 1996 and the season after—and this was their #3 player! Hersey Hawkins was a player capable of averaging 20 ppg as the #1 option.

Shawn Kemp was 5th in rebounding, 10th in PER, 17th in blocks, 2nd in defensive rating, 2nd in defensive win shares, 8th in overall win shares
Gary Payton was 10th in assists, 1st in steals, 20th in PER, 15th in defensive rating, 7th in overall win shares
Detlef Schrempf was 17th in offensive rating

Leading scorers: Kemp 19.6, Payton 19.3, Detlef Schrempf 17.1, Hersey Hawkins 15.6, Sam Perkins 11.8
Leading rebounders: Kemp 11.4, Johnson 5.4, Schrempf 5.3
Leading passers: Payton 7.6, Schrempf 4.4, McMillan 3.6

How they got there

They beat the 39-43 Kings 3-1 in the first round, swept the 48-34 two-time defending champion Hakeem/Drexler Rockers in the WCSF, and beat the 55-27 Malone/Stockton Jazz in seven games in the WCF.

1996 Orlando Magic

60-22, #2 in the East, #3 overall
#3 in offensive rating, #12 in defensive rating

This team was the reigning Eastern conference champions. It went 57-25 en route to the NBA finals in 1995. It was the only team to defeat Michael Jordan in the playoffs in the 1990's. Prior to that it was 50-32 (lost to the Pacers in the first round), and 41-41 (lottery).

All-stars in 1995-96: Shaquille O'Neal, Penny Hardaway
HOFers: Shaquille O'Neal
Players who were all-stars at some point in their career: Shaquille O'Neal (15x), Penny Hardaway (4x), Horace Grant (1x)
Other key players: Nick Anderson, Dennis Scott

MVP caliber players: Shaquille O'Neal, Penny Hardway. Shaq was the 2000 MVP. He has finished 6th or higher in MVP voting 10 times, including being 2nd in 2005, 1995, and 3rd in 2001 and 2002. Hardaway finished in the top 5 once—that was in 1996 when he was third in the MVP race.
All-NBA players: Penny Hardaway (1st team), Shaquille O'Neal (3rd team)
All-Defensive players: Horace Grant (2nd team)

This was another very stacked team. It had not only two players who had HOF ability (we all know the tragic turn Penny's career took due to injuries), these two players were actually MVP level players. In addition, they had an elite defender and all-star capable player in Horace Grant, a former franchise player in Nick Anderson, and another player in Dennis Scott who was capable of scoring 20 ppg if he was a main option on a team.

Shaquille O'Neal was 3rd in scoring, 6th in rebounding, 9th in blocks,
Penny Hardaway was 11th in scoring, 11th in assists, 6th in steals, 7th in PER, 8th in offensive rating, 3rd in offensive win shares, 4th in overall win shares
Horace Grant was 19th in rebounding, 10th in offensive rating
Dennis Scott 18th in offensive rating,

Shaquille O'Neal is one of the top 10 players of all-time. He is consensus top 5 among centers, usually vying with Hakeem behind the trio of Wilt, Kareem, and Russell. Shaq was probably a top 5 player in 1996. Penny Hardaway was also arguably a top 5 player in 1996. Certainly both Shaq and Penny were at least top 10. Penny, along with Grant Hill, was considered by many to be the guy who would “replace” Jordan as the premier player in the NBA and the face of the league at the time. Only injuries ruined his career but the Penny of 1996 was a beast.

Leading scorers: O'Neal 26.6, Hardaway 21.7, Scott 17.5, Anderson 14.7, Grant 13.4
Leading rebounders: O'Neal 11.0, Grant 9.2, Anderson 4.2
Leading passers: Hardaway 7.1, Shaw 4.5, Anderson 3.6

This team was so stacked that had it not been for MJ's comeback it could have been the new NBA dynasty. If MJ did not come back they would have almost certainly made it to the finals and in that case it is hard to see Shaq leaving Orlando the next season.

1997 Utah Jazz

64-18, #1 in the West, #2 in the NBA
#2 in offensive rating, #9 in defensive rating

Past regular season performance: 55-27 (#3 in the West, #5 overall), 60-22 (#2 in the West, #2 overall), 53-29 (#5 in the West, #8 overall)
Past playoff performance: lost in the WCF, lost in the first round, lost in the WCF (they also lost in the WCF in 1992)

Personnel

All-stars in 1996-97: Karl Malone, John Stockon
HOFers: Karl Malone, John Stockton
Players who were all-stars at some point in their career: Malone (14x), Stockon (10x), Jeff Hornacek (1x)
Other key players: Byron Russell

MVP caliber players: Karl Malone. Malone was MVP twice, including in 1997. He finished second in MVP voting in 1998 , third twice, 4th three times.
All-NBA players: Karl Malone (1st team), John Stockon (3rd team)
All-Defensive players: John Stockon (2nd team)

Malone is probably the GOAT PF! Stockton is the all-time leader in assists. Malone was also probably the second best player in the league in 1997. Hornacek was also a very good player who was an all-star and a 19-20 ppg scorer if given a big role in the offense.

Karl Malone was 2nd in scoring, 11th in rebounding, 1st in PER, 2nd in offensive win shares, 13th in defensive win shares, 2nd in overall win shares
John Stockton was 2nd in assists, 8th in steals, 7th in PER, 2nd in offensive rating, 12th in offensive rating, 4th in offensive win shares, 4th in overall win shares
Jeff Hornacek was 6th in offensive rating, 14th in offensive win shares, 18th in overall win shares

How they got there

They swept that 36-46 Clippers, they crushed the 56-26 Shaq Lakers (a team which had four players who would be all-stars the next season), and they beat the 57-25 Hakeem/Barkley/Drexler Rockets 4-2 in the WCF. They beat a team with three HOFers! All three were still effective at that point, although they were all past their prime. Hakeem was still good for 23 points and 9 boards, Barkley 19 points and 14 boards, and Drexler was still a 18/6/6 player as the #3 player on the team.

1997 Miami Heat

61-21, #2 in the East, #3 overall
#12 in offensive rating, #1 in defensive rating

This team sucked until they traded for Alonzo Mourning. This team then became a perennial championship contender for a few years with prime Mourning and prime Tim Hardaway.

All-stars in 1996-97: Alonzo Mourning, Tim Hardaway
HOFers: Alonzo Mourning (likely)? Tim Hardaway (should be likely but has pr problems)???
Players who were all-stars at some point in their career: Alonzo Mouring (7x), Tim Hardaway (5x), Dan Majerle (3x), Jamal Mashburn (1x)
Other key players: PJ Brown

MVP caliber players: Alonzo Mourning, Tim Hardaway. Hardaway finished 4th in MVP voting in 1997. and was 6th the following season. Mourning was 2nd in 1999 and 3rd in 2000.
All-NBA players: Tim Hardaway (1st team)
All-Defensive players: PJ Brown (2nd team)

Alonzo Mouring in 1997 was a top 5 center and arguably had eclipsed the aging Hakeem and Shaq for the #2 position.

Alonzo Mouring was 10th in rebounding, 4th in blocks, 10th in PER, 1st in defensive rating, 6th in offensive win shares,
Tim Hardaway was 17th in scoring, 7th in assists, 15th in steals, 16th in PER, 13th in offensive win shares, 15th in offensive win shares, 7th in overall win shares
PJ Brown was 5th in defensive rating

1998 Utah Jazz

62-20, #1 in the West, #1 overall
#1 in offensive rating, #16 in defensive rating

Past performance: see above

Personnel

All-stars in 1997-98: Karl Malone
HOFers: Karl Malone, John Stockton
Players who were all-stars at some point in their career: Malone (14x), Stockon (10x), Jeff Hornacek (1x)
Other key players: Byron Russell

MVP caliber players: Karl Malone. Malone was MVP twice, including in 1997. He finished second in MVP voting in 1998.
All-NBA players: Karl Malone (1st team)
All-Defensive players: None

Malone is probably the GOAT PF! Stockton is the all-time leader in assists. Malone was also probably the second best player in the league in 1998. Hornacek was also a very good player who was an all-star and a 19-20 ppg scorer if given a big role in the offense.

Karl Malone was 3rd in scoring, 6th in rebounding, 2nd in PER, 2nd in offensive win shares, 8th in offensive rating, 1st in offensive win shares, 19th in defensive win shares, 1st in overall win shares
13th in defensive win shares, 2nd in overall win shares
John Stockton was 5th in assists, 1st in offensive rating, 17th in offensive win shares,
Jeff Hornacek was 4th in offensive rating, 9th in offensive win shares, 19thh in overall win shares

How they got there

They beat the 41-41 Rockets, the 56-26 Duncan/Robinson Spurs in a mere five games, and swept the Lakers, who had four all-stars on their team (Shaq, Kobe, Van Exel, and Eddie Jones!

1998 Indiana Pacers

58-24, #2 in the East, #5 overall
#4 in offensive rating, #5 in defensive rating

This Reggie Miller led team was a perennial contender from 1994-2000. During that time they made five conference finals and the NBA finals in 2000. They made three straight conference finals from 1998-2000.

All-stars in 1997-98: Reggie Miller, Rik Smits
HOFers: Reggie Miller, Chris Mullin?
Players who were all-stars at some point in their career: Miller (5x), Mullin (5x), Smits (1x), Antonio Davis (1x), Dale Davis (1x, 2000), Jackson (1x)
Other key players: Jalen Rose

MVP caliber players: None.
All-NBA players: Reggie Miller (3rd team)
All-Defensive players: None

Reggie Miller was 18th in points
Mark Jackson was 3rd in assists
Rik Smits was 19th in PER

On paper this was by far the weakest of the teams the Bulls faced in the NBA and conference finals. However, they came closer to defeating the Bulls during a full MJ season than any other team since the Bulls become champions. We all know about Reggie Miller. He was not great in the regular season but he was a great playoff performer. As to the rest of the team, Jackson is second all-time in assists and was an elite PG in his prime. The Davises were underrated and were great defenders. Smits was a consistent 17-19 ppg #2 option and probably the third best center in the East in 1998 behind Mourning and Ewing.


Summary

Conference ranking of teams defeated in the NBA finals: #2, #1, #1, #1, #1, #1
Conference ranking of teams defeated in the ECF: #3, #2*, #1, #2*, #2*, #2*
*The Bulls were the #1 seed.

Current all-stars faced in NBA finals: 2, 3, 2, 2, 2, 1
Current all-stars faced in the ECF: 2, 2, 1, 2, 2, 2

Players faced in the finals who were all-stars at some point: 4, 6, 6, 4, 3, 3
Players faced in the ECF who were all-stars at some point: 3, 3, 6, 3, 4, 6

HOF level players faced in the NBA finals: 2, 1, 1, 1, 2, 2
HOF level players faced in the ECF: 2, 0, 1, 1, 2, 2

MVP level players faced in the NBA finals: 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1
MVP level players faced in the ECF: 1, 0, 1, 2, 2, 0

JordansBulls
02-16-2012, 02:27 PM
Tell me, when did Jordan face a team in the finals with the likes of D Johnson ( hof) Walton (hof) Ainge, Bird( Hof top 5player ever), Mchale ( Hof top 3-5 pf ever), Parish ( Hof) , or a team with a top 3-5 Center ever in moses malone + probably the best or at lest top 3 defensive player ever in bobby jones + a top 15 player ever like Dr J .
Or thomas ( hof), Dumars( Hof), Aguirre( as) Lambier ( as), rodman ( Hof) etc etc.

Sure he met those celtics and pistons often int he 80s.

Know what? he failed against them time after time during the 84-91 span and only was able to take care of them when they were in their late 30s and on a complete decline and with the help of the best coach ever on his side.

Wich remembers me, what was the recod of the bulls drop off when he retired to play baseball? 2-3 games in teh regular season? Pipps bulls were also ROBBED of getting to conference finals that year against theknicks by refs.




Celtics Legend Larry Bird had never seen on player transform a team like Jordan had. "Even at this stage of his career," Bird raved, "he's doing more than I ever did."


And this is rookie Jordan because as you see later in the paragraph it says on Jan 14, MJ got the first triple double in Bulls history with 35 points, 15 assists and 14 rebounds.

http://www.basketball-reference.com/boxscores/198501140CHI.html




"Early on, people were saying Michael Jordan didn't have a team mentality. That was because he didn't have a team."- Larry Bird, When the Game Was Ours

Regarding the Pistons.

Here are the ages of all their core players:

Dumars: 27
Thomas: 29
Aguirre: 31
Edwards: 35
Johnson: 34
Laimbeer: 33
Rodman: 29
Salley: 26

Isn't the prime of a basketball player roughly between ages 27-30? If so, their two best players were within that range and their third leading scorer was just outside it at 31. Rodman was in his prime as well, Salley was about to enter it. Only Laimbeer, Edwards, and Johnson were truly old.

Thomas 1988: 19.5/8.4/46%
Thomas 1989: 18.2/8.3/46%
Thomas 1990: 18.4/9.4/44%
Thomas 1991: 16.2/9.3/44%

In the case of Thomas there was a decline in scoring from the championship years, although his assists were actually higher than in his first title year and his field goal percentage was the same as in 1990. However, was this due to age?

Thomas 1992: 18.5/7.2/45%

His good 1992 campaign suggests his 1991 decline was due to injuries. He made every all-star team in the 90's except for his final season. He declined further in 1993 but 1994 is when he ceased being an all-star.

Dumars 1988: 14.2/47%
Dumars 1989: 17.2/50%
Dumars 1990: 17.8/48%
Dumars 1991: 20.4/48%

Dumars was actually improving during this period, which is to be expected given his age. His best season was 1993 when he was 29 years old. Dumars made the all-star team as late as 1997 when he was 33.

Aguirre 1989: 15.5/48% (his numbers in Detroit only)
Aguirre 1990: 14.1/49%
Aguirre 1991: 14.2/46%

Aguirre showed no decline from 1990.

Laimbeer 1988: 13.5/10/49%
Laimbeer 1989: 14/10/50%
Laimbeer 1990: 12/10/48%
Laimbeer 1991: 11/9/48%

He was a player clearly in decline, albeit a steady decline.

Rodman 1988: 12/12/56%
Rodman 1989: 9/9/60%
Rodman 1990: 9/10/58%
Rodman 1991: 8/13/58%

Rodman was a player on the upswing. In 1992 he would shoot up to averaging 19 rebounds a game along with 10 points. He would lead the league in rebounding for the next seven years.

Johnson 1988: 12/44%
Johnson 1989: 14/46%
Johnson 1990: 10/43%
Johnson 1991: 12/43%

Johnson was obviously past his prime but he was actually better in 1991 than in 1990.

So Dumars, Rodman were improving players during this time. Laimbeer and Johnson were declining but Johnson in 1991 was better than in 1990. Isiah Thomas had a down year in 1991 but he rebounded in 1992.



1. The Bulls won 6 titles out of 6 full seasons Jordan played in. The Lakers won 5 out of 9
2. Average record of Bulls Opponents 53-29. Average Records of Lakers opponents 49-33
3. 60+ win teams beaten - Bulls = 7, Lakers = 2
4. 50+ win teams beaten - Bulls = 16, Lakers = 9
5. Sub-500 teams beaten - Bulls = 2, Lakers = 5
6. Win percentage vs teams with 50+ wins over the course of the championship run - Bulls = 73%, Lakers = 58%

JordansBulls
02-16-2012, 02:29 PM
didnt magic go to 9 finals in 11 years??

thats crazy

When you have a guy who won 6 league mvp's on your team and 2 finals mvp's and another guy who won league that is what happens. Also consider the opponents.

Lakers WC opponents from 81-90

81
Houston Rockets: 40-42 (*** they lost this series)

82
Phoenix Suns: 46-36
San Antonio Spurs: 48-34

83
Portland Trail Blazers: 46-36
San Antonio Spurs: 53-29

84
Kings: 38-44
Mavericks: 43-39
Suns: 41-41

85
Suns: 36-46
Blazers: 42-40
Nuggets: 52-30

86
Spurs: 35-47
Mavericks: 44-38
Rockets: 51-31 (*** they lost this series)

87
Nuggets: 37-45
Warriors: 42-40
Sonics: 39-43

88
Spurs: 31-51
Jazz: 47-35
Mavs: 53-29

89
Blazers: 39-43
Sonics: 47-35
Suns: 55-27

90
Rockets: 41-41
Suns: 54-28 (*** they lost this series)

So in 10 postseasons, LA only had to face 6 teams of 50+ wins in total, with no team winning more than 55 games - and they lost to two of these 50 win teams (the '86 Rockets, '90 Suns) on top of that despite having a massive talent advantage. Compare that to the Bulls, who beat 10 teams of 50+ wins within their conference during their 6 title seasons, 6 of which won more than 55 games. Not even close to the same level of competition intra-conference. LA also beat zero teams headed by top 50 players all-time within their conference, and in fact lost both times they tried to do so ('81 Rockets w/Moses, '86 Rockets with Dream). Compare that to Chicago, who beat Barkley (twice), Ewing (4 times), Mourning (twice), Isiah, and Shaq within their own conference.

LakersEaglesLA
02-16-2012, 02:38 PM
Only players with 5+ Titles and multiple Finals MVP's

MJ = 6 titles, 6 Finals MVP's
Kareem = 6 Titles, 2 Finals MVP's
Magic = 5 Titles, 3 Finals MVP's
Kobe = 5 Titles, 2 Finals MVP's.


1. MJ (6 Titles, 5 League MVP's, 6 Finals MVP's, Career Leader in PPG Regular Season and Playoffs, and Most Points in Playoffs, etc)
2. Magic (5 Titles, 3 League MVP's, 3 Finals MVP's, # of APG titles)
3. Kareem (6 Titles, 6 League MVP's, 3 Finals MVP's, Career Points leader)
4. Russell (11 Titles, 5 League MVP's)
5. Wilt (2 Titles, 4 League MVP's, 1 Finals MVP)
Close
6. Bird (3 Titles, 3 League MVP's, 2 Finals MVP's)
7. Shaq (4 Titles, 1 League MVP's, 3 Finals MVP's)
8. Duncan (4 Titles, 2 League MVP's, 3 Finals MVP's)
9. Hakeem (2 Titles, 1 League MVP, 2 Finals MVP's)
10.Kobe (4 Titles, 1 League MVP, 1 Finals MVP)

So if we break it down, let's go by the following:

League MVP's
6 - Kareem Abdul-Jabbar
5 - Michael Jordan
5 - Bill Russell
4 - Wilt Chamberlain
3 - Larry Bird
3 - Magic Johnson
3 - Moses Malone

Finals MVP's
6 - Michael Jordan
3 - Magic Johnson
3 - Shaquille O'neal
3 - Tim Duncan
2 - Kareem
2 - Bird
2 - Kobe
1 - Wilt
1 - Moses Malone

Championships
11 - Bill Russell
6 - Michael Jordan
6 - Kareem
5 - Magic
5 - Kobe
4 - Shaq
4 - Duncan
2 - Wilt

Career Stats and Records - Regular Season
APG Leader: Magic
RPG Leader: Wilt
All-time Career Points Leader: Kareem
All-time PPG Leader: M.Jordan
Playoff Stats and Records - Playoffs
Total Assists Leader: Magic Johnson
APG Leader Playoffs: Magic Johnson
Total Rebounds Leader: Bill Russell
RPG Leader Playoffs: Bill Russell
All-time Career Points Leader Playoffs: M.Jordan
All-time PPG Leader Playoffs: M.Jordan
So currently the only players that fit the bill in each category are both MJ's.
Now if you add the fact of Defensive Teams that would eliminate Magic. However, I won't do that to him because he is my 2nd favorite player.
Now if you want you can add in the TSN MVP award as well


http://www.basketball-reference.com/awards/tsn_mvp.html
TSN MVP
7 - Michael Jordan
6 - Kareem
4 - Wilt
4 - Russell
2 - Moses
2 - Shaq
1 - Hakeem
1 - Magic

http://www.usatoday.com/sports/basketball/nba/2003-02-06-dupree-team_x.htm

So Kareem has the most league MVP's, MJ the most Finals MVP's, and Russell the most titles.
MJ is near the top in all of them though as is Russell, but Russell doesn't have the numbers to support him.
Also consider
Kareem won League MVP and Finals MVP in 1971
Magic won League MVP and Finals MVP in 1987
MJ won League MVP and Finals MVP in 1991, 1992, 1996 and 1998.
Bird won League MVP and Finals MVP in 1984 and 1986

Now all of that is looking at accolades, so how do we go even further in deciding who is the best as we can't just use titles alone. Well what did they did yearly and in the playoffs?

Highest PPG Average: 30.12
Most seasons leading league in Points: 11
Most scoring titles: 10
Highest PER Efficiency: 27.91
Also, MJ is no doubt the greatest playoff performer and IMO he was the greatest Road Player Ever. Most of his greatest feats happened on the road.
The Playoffs is where you make your name and where greatness is defined.

Playoffs

Most Points Per Game (min. 25 games)
33.4 by Michael Jordan (179 games)

Most Points in a Game
63 by Michael Jordan

Most 50 Point Games
8 by Michael Jordan

Most 40 Point Games
38 by Michael Jordan

Most 30 Point Games
109 by Michael Jordan

Most 20 Point Games
174 by Michael Jordan (he played 179 playoff games and scored under 20 only 5 times)
-Highest PER Efficiency Playoffs: 28.59


Most Career 40+ Point Games in Playoffs History

1. MJ = 38
2. West = 20
3. Baylor = 14
4. Wilt = 13
5. Shaq = 12
6. Hakeem = 11
Kobe = 11
Iverson = 10
9. Lebron = 9


Most Career 30+ Point Games in Playoffs History
MJ - 109
Kobe - 81
Kareem - 75
West -74
Baylor - 60



MJ:
NBA Regular-season records Michael Jordan holds:
-Most seasons leading league in scoring: 10
-Highest scoring average, career: 30.12ppg
-Most consecutive points, one game: 23
-Most seasons leading league in field goals made: 10
-Most consecutive gms in double figures in scoring:
866
-Most consecutive seasons leading PER: 7
-Highest career PER: 27.91
-Oldest player to score 40+ points: age 40 (43 pts)
-Oldest player to score 50+ points: age 38 (51 pts)
NBA Regular-season records Michael Jordan shares:
-Most consecutive seasons leading league in scoring:
7 (tied with Wilt Chamberlain)
-Most consecutive seasons, 2,000 plus points: 11 (Tied
with Malone)

NBA Playoff records Michael Jordan holds:
-Highest scoring average, career: 33.4ppg
-Record Total points: 5987
-Record Most FTS made: 1463
-Most points playoffs, one-game: 63
-Most points playoffs, three-game series: 135 (vs.
Miami, 1992)
-Most Points playoffs, five-game series: 226 (vs.
Cleveland, 1988)
-Most field goals made playoffs, three-game series:
53 (vs. Miami, 1992)
-Most field goals made playoffs, five-game series: 86
(vs. Philadelphia, 1990)
-Most field goals made playoffs, six-game series: 101
(vs. Phoenix, 1993)
-Most consecutive 50pt games: 2
-Most consecutive 45pt games: 3
-Most consecutive games, 20 plus points: 60
-Most free throws made, one quarter: 13
-Most free throws attempted, one quarter: 14
-Most 50 point games: 8
-Most 40 point games: 39
-Most consecutive points: 23
NBA Playoff records Michael Jordan shares:
-Most field goals, in a game: 24 (vs. Cleveland, May
1, 1988; tied with two others)
-Most three-point field goals made, one half: 6
(first half vs. Portland, June 3, 1992; tied with four
others)
NBA Finals records Michael Jordan holds:
- Highest Scoring average: 33.6
-Most points, six-game series: 246 (vs. Phoenix,
1993)
-Most field goals made, five-game series: 63 (vs.
L.A. Lakers, 1991)
-Most field goals made, six-game series: 101 (vs.
Phoenix, 1993)
-Most steals, five-game series: 14 (vs. L.A. Lakers,
1991)
-Highest scoring average, one series: 41.0 (vs.
Phoenix, 1993)
-Most consecutive games, 40-plus points: 4 (June 11,
1993 to June 18, 1993)
-Most consecutive 30 point games: 9
-Most consecutive games, 20-plus points: 29 (June 22,
1991 to June 1997)
-Most points, one-half: 35 (vs. Portland, June 3,
1992)
-Most consecutive field goals: 13 (Vs. LA)
-Most consecutive points: 23 (Vs. Seattle)
-Most Finals MVPs: 6



Conclusion: MJ still owns the most
scoring records as well as ALMOST ALL THE PLAYOFF
Records. Take a look at the all time scoring feats at
the bottom. MJ has 21 of them and the most important
ones, Wilt has 16, Kobe has 1.
Here's a list of ALL-TIME SCORING RECORDS.
- Highest career scoring average: MJ 30.12
- Highest career playoff scoring average: MJ 33.4
- Highest career Finals scoring average: MJ 33.6
- Highest single season scoring average: Wilt 50.4
- Highest single series playoff average: West 46.3
- Highest single Finals series average: MJ 41.0
- Most seasons leading league in scoring: MJ 10
- Most consecutive seasons leading in scoring: MJ,
Wilt tied at 7
- Most 50 point games: Wilt 118
- Most 50 point games playoffs: MJ 8
- Most 40 point games: Wilt 271
- Most 40 point games playoffs: MJ 42
- Most consecutive 60 point games: Wilt 4
- Most consecutive 50 point games: Wilt 7
- Most consecutive 50 point games in playoffs: MJ 2
- Most consecutive 45 point games: Wilt 7
- Most consecutive 45 point games playoffs: MJ 3
- Most consecutive 40 point games: Wilt 14
- Most consecutive 40 point games rookie: AI 5
- Most consecutive 40 point games playoffs: West 6
- Most consecutive 40 point games finals: MJ 4
- Most consecutive 35 point games: Wilt 33
- Most consecutive 30 point games: Wilt 65
- Most consecutive 30 point games playoffs: Elgin 11
- Most consecutive 30 point games finals: MJ 9
- Most consecutive 20 point games: Wilt 126
- Most consecutive 20 point games playoffs: MJ 60
- Most consecutive 20 point games finals: MJ 35
- Most consecutive double figures scoring: MJ 866
- Most consecutive points in one game: MJ 23
- Most consecutive points in one game playoffs: MJ 23
- Highest scoring game: Wilt 100
- Highest scoring game playoffs: MJ 63
- Highest scoring game finals: Elgin 61
- Highest scoring game rookie: Wilt 58
- Highest scoring all-star game: Wilt 42
- Highest scoring all-rookie game: Kobe 31
- Most points in 3 quarters: Wilt 69
- Most points in one half: Wilt 59
- Most points one half playoffs: Sleepy Floyd 39
- Most points in one half finals: MJ 35
- Most points one half all-star game: Rice 24
- Most points in one quarter: Gervin 33
- Most points in one quarter playoffs: Sleepy Floyd 29
- Most points in one quarter finals: Isiah 25
- Most points in one quarter all-star game: Rice 20
- Most points in OT: Arenas 16
- Most points in OT playoffs: Drexler 13
- Most points in OT in finals: Havlicek, Laimbeer,
Ainge tied at 9
- Oldest to score 50: MJ 51 at age 38
- Oldest to score 40: MJ 43 at age 40

http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/basketball/nba/2002/playoffs/top_individual_points/
Top Playoff Single-Game Scoring Performances
Player Team Opponent Total Date
Michael Jordan Chicago at Boston 63 April 20, 1986
Elgin Baylor L.A. Lakers at Boston 61 April 14, 1962
Wilt Chamberlain Philadelphia Syracuse 56 March 22, 1962
Michael Jordan Chicago at Miami 56 April 29, 1992
Charles Barkley Phoenix at Golden State 56 May 4, 1994
Michael Jordan Chicago Cleveland 55 May 1, 1988
Michael Jordan Chicago Phoenix 55 June 16, 1993
Michael Jordan Chicago Washington 55 April 27, 1997
John Havlicek Boston Atlanta 54 April 1, 1973
Michael Jordan Chicago New York 54 May 31, 1993
Allen Iverson Philadelphia Toronto 54 May 9, 2001
Wilt Chamberlain Philadelphia Syracuse 53 March 14, 1960
Jerry West L.A. Lakers Boston 53 April 23, 1969
Jerry West L.A. Lakers Baltimore 52 April 5, 1965
Allen Iverson Philadelphia Toronto 52 May 16, 2001
Sam Jones Boston at New York 51 March 28, 1967
Eric Floyd Golden State L.A. Lakers 51 May 10, 1987
Bob Cousy Boston Syracuse 50* March 21, 1953
Bob Petit St. Louis Boston 50 April 12, 1958
Wilt Chamberlain Philadelphia at Boston 50 March 22, 1950
Wilt Chamberlain San Francisco St. Louis 50 April 10, 1964
Billy Cunningham Philadelphia Milwaukee 50 April 1, 1970
Bob McAdoo Buffalo Washington 50 April 18, 1975
Dominique Wilkins Atlanta Detroit 50 April 19, 1986
Michael Jordan Chicago Cleveland 50 April 28, 1988
Michael Jordan Chicago Cleveland 50^ May 5, 1989
Karl Malone Utah Seattle 50 April 22, 2000
Vince Carter Toronto Philadelphia 50 May 11, 2001
*4 overtimes
^overtime


NBA PLAYOFFS HIGH SCORING GAME BY YEAR
1946-47 - 37 Joe Fulks, PHW vs CHI at PHW 16Apr47
1947-48 - 34 Connie Simmons, BLT vs NYK at BLT 27Mar48
1948-49 - 42 George Mikan, MPL vs WSC 4Apr49 @ MPL
1949-50 - 40 George Mikan, MPL vs SYR at MPL 23Apr50
1950-51 - 41 George Mikan, MPL vs IDS at MPL 21Mar51
1951-52 - 47 George Mikan, MPL at ROC 29Mar52
1952-53 - 50 Bob Cousy, BOS vs SYR at BOS 21Mar53
1953-54 - 36 Dolph Schayes, SYR at NYK 21Mar54
1954-55 - 32 Bill Sharman, BOS at SYR 24Mar55
1955-56 - 43 Neil Johnson, PHW at SYR 25Mar56
1956-57 - 42 Bob Leonard, MPL vs STL at MPL 25Mar57
1957-58 - 50 Bob Pettit, STL vs BOS at STL 12Apr58
1958-59 - 40 Cliff Hagan, STL vs MPL at STL 21Mar59
1959-60 - 53 Wilt Chamberlain, PHW vs SYR at PHW 14Mar60
1960-61 - 47 Elgin Baylor, LAL at DET 18Mar61
............... 47 Elgin Baylor, LAL at STL 27Mar61
1961-62 - 61 Elgin Baylor, LAL at BOS 14Apr62
1962-63 - 47 Sam Jones, BOS vs CIN at BOS 10Apr63
1963-64 - 50 Wilt Chamberlain, SFW vs STL at SFW 10Apr64
1964-65 - 52 Jerry West, LAL vs BAL at LAL 3Apr65
1965-66 - 46 Wilt Chamberlain, PHI vs BOS at PHI 12Apr66
1966-67 - 55 Rick Barry, SFW vs PHI at SFW 18Apr67
1967-68 - 46 Zelmo Beaty, STL vs SFW 23Mar68 @ STL
1968-69 - 53 Jerry West, LAL vs BOS at LAL 23Apr69
1969-70 - 50 Billy Cunningham, PHI vs MIL at PHI 1Apr70
1970-71 - 39 Gail Goodrich, LAL at CHI 28Mar71
1971-72 - 43 John Havlicek BOS at ATL 31Mar72
1972-73 - 54 John Havlicek, BOS vs ATL at BOS 1Apr73
1973-74 - 44 Bob McAdoo, BUF vs BOS 6Apr74 at BUF
............... 44 Kareem Abdul-Jabbar, MIL at CHI 18Apr74
1974-75 - 50 Bob McAdoo, BUF vs WAS at BUF 18Apr75
1975-76 - 45 Fred Brown, SEA vs PHO at SEA 15Apr76
1976-77 - 45 Kareem Abdul-Jabbar, LAL vs GSW at LAL 29Apr77
1977-78 - 46 George Gervin, SAN vs WAS at SAN 18Apr78
1978-79 - 42 George Gervin, SAN vs WAS at SAN 11May79
............... 42 George Gervin, SAN at WAS 18May79
1979-80 - 44 George Gervin, SAN vs HOU at SAN 4Apr80
1980-81 - 42 Calvin Murphy, HOU at SAN 17Apr81
............... 42 Moses Malone, HOU vs KCK at HOU 26Apr81
1981-82 - 39 George Gervin, SAN vs LAL at SAN 14May82
............... 39 Andrew Toney, PHI vs BOS at PHI 16May82
1982-83 - 42 Alex English, DEN vs PHO at PHO 24Apr83
............... 42 George Gervin, SAN at DEN 26Apr83
1983-84 - 46 Bernard King, NYK at DET 19Apr84
............... 46 Bernard King, NYK vs DET at NYK 22Apr84
1984-85 - 43 Rolando Blackman, DAL vs POR at DAL 18Apr85
............... 43 Larry Bird, BOS vs DET at BOS 8May85
1985-86 - 63 Michael Jordan, CHI at BOS 20Apr86
1986-87 - 51 Sleepy Floyd, GSW vs LAL at GSW 10May87
1987-88 - 55 Michael Jordan, CHI vs CLE at CHI 1May88
1988-89 - 50 Michael Jordan, CHI vs CLE at CHI 5May89
1989-90 - 49 Michael Jordan, CHI at PHI 11May90
1990-91 - 46 Michael Jordan, CHI at PHI 10May91
1991-92 - 56 Michael Jordan, CHI at MIA 29Apr92
1992-93 - 55 Michael Jordan, CHI vs PHO at CHI 16Jun93
1993-94 - 56 Charles Barkley, PHO at GSW 4May94
1994-95 - 48 Michael Jordan, CHI at CHA 28Apr95
1995-96 - 46 Michael Jordan, CHI at NYK 11May96
1996-97 - 55 Michael Jordan, CHI vs WAS at CHI 27Apr97
1997-98 - 45 Michael Jordan, CHI at UTA 14Jun98
1998-99 - 37 Tim Duncan, SAN at LAL 22May99
............... 37 Scottie Pippen, HOU vs LAL at HOU 13May99
............... 37 Shaquille O'Neal, LAL vs HOU at HOU 15May99
............... 37 Allen Iverson, PHI vs ORL at PHI 15May99
1999-00 - 50 Karl Malone, UTA vs SEA at UTA 22Apr00

-----

ALL-TIME HIGHEST SCORING AVERAGES, NBA PLAYOFFS
Jerry West, LAL vs BAL, 1965..... 46.3
Michael Jordan, CHI vs CLE, 1988..... 45.2
Michael Jordan, CHI vs MIA, 1992..... 45.0

ALL-TIME HIGHEST SCORING AVERAGES, NBA CHAMPIONSHIP SERIES/NBA FINALS
Michael Jordan, CHI vs PHO, 1993..... 41.0
Rick Barry, SFW vs PHI, 1965..... 40.8
Elgin Baylor, LAL vs BOS, 1962..... 40.6


Also MJ has 6 series in the playoffs over 40+ ppg.
And for people using the era difference, if that is the case why is Iverson 2nd all time in PPG in the PLAYOFFS and 3rd all time in PPG in the season?


http://www.nba.com/statistics/encyc/Player.jsp
PPG All Time (http://www.nba.com/statistics/default_all_time_leaders/AllTimeLeadersPPGQuery.html?topic=4&stat=0)

With respect to Kobe, he is my boy and all, but seriously he never has been as good as MJ was.
First off Kobe's best PER is as good as MJ's career average PER.
Next off is the following:
Also, Kobe in the finals. This is how they performed in the finals.
http://www.usatoday.com/sports/columnist/zillgitt/2004-06-15-zillgitt_x.htm
http://www.usatoday.com/sports/columnist/zillgitt/2004-06-15-zillgitt_x.htm
In 35 Finals games, Jordan averaged 33.6 points, 6.0 rebounds and 6.0 assists a game on 48% FG
In 37 Finals games, Bryant has averaged 25.3 points, 5.7 rebounds and 5.1 assists a game on 41% FG

Also MJ has 5 finals in the top 15 all time with all 6 in the top 26 and Kobe has 0 finals performances in the top 50 and has a all time top 10 worst finals performance.
http://proxy.espn.go.com/nba/playoffs2008/columns/story?columnist=hollinger_john&page=FinalsPerformances-2



http://www.usatoday.com/sports/columnist/zillgitt/2004-06-15-zillgitt_x.htm
Here were the requirements
NBA ALL-TIME LEADERS:
(All statistical records + playoff records + career averages + playoff averages + MVPs + Finals MVPs + Rings + All-1st teams + All-1st Defensive Teams + All-star games + All-star MVPS)
This is how it broke down each category:
http://www.usatoday.com/sports/basketball/nba/2003-02-06-dupree-team_x.htm

This is how it broke down each category:
NBA MVP awards won (five points each)
NBA championships won (five points each)
All-Star Games selected to play in (one point each)
All-NBA first-team selections (two points each)
All-defensive first team (one point each)
NBA Finals MVP awards (two points each)
All-Star MVP awards (one point each)
Individual statistical titles (two points each) — restricted to points, rebounds, assists, field goal percentage and free throw percentage, the stats the league has used the longest
Career averages (six points each) — if a player is the NBA career leader in scoring average, rebounds, assists, field goal percentage or free throw percentage
Career playoff averages (five points each) — for each category the player leads

That was the criteria used
1st Place: MJ, 149 total points
2nd Place: Wilt, 124 total points
3rd Place: Bill, 118 total points
4th Place: Jabbar, 114 total points
5th Place: Magic, 102 total points

Now adding up the current players you get (Active Players):
1st Place: Shaq, 87 total points
2nd Place: KB, 77 total points
3rd Place: Tim, 75 total points


All of these players below lost with either Homecourt Advantage, Top seed, Better Record or Same RecordIf year is mentioned then it means they lost with HCA. Otherwise top seed or identical record is mentioned



Also consider the following:
Is 18% a good percentage?
In what you might ask... 18% winning percentage...
Pretty awful right?
Well in 60 years of NBA Basketball only 11 league leading scorers have won a championship... That's 18.333333%...
Their names are: Shaquille O'Neal, Michael Jordan, Kareem Abdul Jabbar, George Mikan and some guy named Joe Fulks...
Most of these players were dominant Centers, who did more than just score.
That means that non center players who led the league in scoring have won in an amazing 10% of the time.. and only one player did it... Michael Jordan. In one era. That phenomenon of nature who won six...
10% winning historically!!! 10 PERCENT!!!
I will argue that the odds are against a high scoring guard from winning it all.
Would you?
I will argue that who ever is the only one to do that should be considered a truly great.. would you?
I will say that the way to go is to build a team in which you get many other good options to score, a balanced attack?

http://www.basketball-reference.com/about/glossary.html


MJ has led in Offensive Win Shares 8x, and was 2nd 3x.



1.) Offensive Win Shares

1984-85 NBA 10.3 (2)
1986-87 NBA 11.9 (2)
1987-88 NBA 15.2 (1)
1988-89 NBA 14.6 (1)
1989-90 NBA 14.7 (1)
1990-91 NBA 14.9 (1)
1991-92 NBA 12.1 (1)
1992-93 NBA 12.0 (1)
1995-96 NBA 14.2 (1)
1996-97 NBA 13.3 (1)
1997-98 NBA 10.4 (2)


2.) MJ has led in Win Shares 9x, and was 2nd 2x



Win Shares
1984-85 NBA 14.0 (2)
1986-87 NBA 16.9 (1)
1987-88 NBA 21.2 (1)
1988-89 NBA 19.8 (1)
1989-90 NBA 19.0 (1)
1990-91 NBA 20.3 (1)
1991-92 NBA 17.7 (1)
1992-93 NBA 17.2 (1)
1995-96 NBA 20.4 (1)
1996-97 NBA 18.3 (1)
1997-98 NBA 15.8 (2)


3.)

Win Shares Per 48 Minutes

1984-85 NBA 0.213 (3)
1986-87 NBA 0.247 (2)
1987-88 NBA 0.308 (1)
1988-89 NBA 0.292 (1)
1989-90 NBA 0.285 (1)
1990-91 NBA 0.321 (1)
1991-92 NBA 0.274 (1)
1992-93 NBA 0.270 (1)
1995-96 NBA 0.317 (1)
1996-97 NBA 0.283 (1)
1997-98 NBA 0.238 (3)
Career NBA 0.251 (1)
Career 0.251 (1)


Also for the playoffs MJ leads in:
Also Jordan has led in PER 7x, Win Shares 8x, OWS 8x, WSAA 8x in the season.
-Highest PER Efficiency Playoffs: 28.59
-Most Offensive Win Shares Playoffs - 27.32
-Most Win Shares Playoffs - 39.76

Also MJ has led in PER 6x in the playoffs, OWS 6x and Win Shares 7x in the playoffs.
Kobe has yet to lead in any of them in any given season


In my mind MJ is the GOAT, and I provided ample evidence of why I feel that way, but it is really close as guys like Kareem, Russell, Wilt, Magic and Bird on right their in the discussion, but when you consider how good MJ was on both ends of the court and how efficient he was as a player and the fact that he was a guard that in itself helps his case much more.
Also let's not forget MJ is currently the only player to average 30+ ppg for a career in the playoffs and he is the only one to do so in the season, playoffs and finals and he has the highest average in each of them and his has the most playoff points ever.

Here was a clip in 1993 where even Jerry West mentioned MJ was the best
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m1mFE_ekV7E&mode=related&search=

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZquLVr3MeGk&feature=related
@ the 1:30 mark, Dick Stockton refers to Jerry West mentioning that MJ was the greatest ever period.

Pat Riley mentions that Jordan will always be considered the best
http://youtube.com/watch?v=0565oawy9Ak

7:55 mark Isiah Thomas debates on why MJ was the best over Wilt
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nP-Rm2atzU0


4:59 mark --> Magic Johnson calls Michael Jordan the "best ever" in 1993
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N6og_pOVi2w&feature=related


http://www.usatoday.com/sports/basketball/nba/2003-02-06-dupree-team_x.htm



This is the DUMBEST arguement I have ever seen, nba players are not judged on only stats like a coorperation or wall street. If you were alive and old enough to watch basketball in 1980s you have an opinion. If not stop wasting ink and everyones time. Magic Johnson was the BEST EVER! He Beat Larry Bird, Kevin McHale, Parrish, Isiah Thomas, Dumars, Rodman, Alex English, Chris Mullin, Stockton,Malone, Dr.J, Artist Gilmore, George Gervin, Ricky Pierce, Dominique Wilkins, Akeem and Sampson, Drexler,Aguirre and Tarpley,Kevin Johnson and Tom Chambers,Terry Cummings,Adrian Dantley,Bernard King,Maurice Lucas,Larry Nance,Calvin Natt,Patrick Ewing and the list goes on and on. The 80s had REAL players. McHale closelined Rambis and didnt even get ejected from the game. This was BASKETBALL not STATS! Teams were GREAT and Magic dominated them all. Celtics, 76ers, Knicks, Rockets, Sonics, Bucks, Blazers,Pistons,Hawks, and Jazz were GREAT teams. Magic whipped Jordan from 84-90. The 90s had Just the Bulls, No other great teams, it was the worse decade of teams in NBA History. The 80s were the Best teams in NBA History. The NBA was dead. Bankrupt before Magic and Bird. Showtime was and still is the most skillful brand of basketball ever played. Magic played every position,6'9 point guard and played in 9 finals in 12 years. Retired at 32. MAGIC GOAT!!!

JordansBulls
02-16-2012, 02:43 PM
This is the DUMBEST arguement I have ever seen, nba players are not judged on only stats like a coorperation or wall street. If you were alive and old enough to watch basketball in 1980s you have an opinion. If not stop wasting ink and everyones time. Magic Johnson was the BEST EVER! He Beat Larry Bird, Kevin McHale, Parrish, Isiah Thomas, Dumars, Rodman, Alex English, Chris Mullin, Stockton,Malone, Dr.J, Artist Gilmore, George Gervin, Ricky Pierce, Dominique Wilkins, Akeem and Sampson, Drexler,Aguirre and Tarpley,Kevin Johnson and Tom Chambers,Terry Cummings,Adrian Dantley,Bernard King,Maurice Lucas,Larry Nance,Calvin Natt,Patrick Ewing and the list goes on and on. The 80s had REAL players. McHale closelined Rambis and didnt even get ejected from the game. This was BASKETBALL not STATS! Teams were GREAT and Magic dominated them all. Celtics, 76ers, Knicks, Rockets, Sonics, Bucks, Blazers,Pistons,Hawks, and Jazz were GREAT teams. Magic whipped Jordan from 84-90. The 90s had Just the Bulls, No other great teams, it was the worse decade of teams in NBA History. The 80s were the Best teams in NBA History. The NBA was dead. Bankrupt before Magic and Bird. Showtime was and still is the most skillful brand of basketball ever played. Magic played every position,6'9 point guard and played in 9 finals in 12 years. Retired at 32. MAGIC GOAT!!!

And lost with HCA to teams inferior and won with Kareem a guy who is considered greater than Magic.

Lakers opponents from 81-87

81
Houston Rockets: 40-42

82
Phoenix Suns: 46-36
San Antonio Spurs: 48-34

83
Portland Trail Blazers: 46-36
San Antonio Spurs: 53-29

84
Kings: 38-44
Mavericks: 43-39
Suns: 41-41

85
Suns: 36-46
Blazers: 42-40
Nuggets: 52-30

86
Spurs: 35-47
Mavericks: 44-38
Rockets: 51-31

87
Nuggets: 37-45
Warriors: 42-40
Sonics: 39-43

1. The overall record of their opponents was 733-661 (.526). This averages out to 43-39 over an 82 game schedule.
2. Over a 7 year span, they only faced 3 WC teams that won 50 games. None ever won 55 games. It isn't like they dominated these the 50 win teams either (2-1 series, 9-7 overall).

Jordan is the only player in the top 20 all time that is undefeated in series with HCA.


HCA(50+)/non-50
Jordan: 14-0 / 10-0
Magic: 9-2 / 20-1




If Magic was soo great why did he refuse to play for the Bulls a losing organization?

http://articles.latimes.com/1991-06-05/sports/sp-83_1_lakers


Magic Johnson would have returned to Michigan State rather than play for the Chicago Bulls.

"I'd have stayed in school," he said here Tuesday, standing alone outside Gate 3 1/2 of Chicago Stadium, the house that could have been his. "A coin toss changed the course of my whole life."

Johnson signed with the Lakers after his sophomore year of college and proceeded to win five championships. The Bulls picked second, took UCLA's David Greenwood and have won no championships.

"I wouldn't have played here," Johnson said on the eve of Game 2 of the NBA finals between his team and the team that could have been his. "The only reason I came out was to play with Kareem and the Lakers.

Hellcrooner
02-16-2012, 02:45 PM
blah blah blah blah blah blah and more blah blah no one cares to read.

When in hell are you going to realiza that in a league with 20 teams is MUCH HARDER to get 50 wins than in a league with 30 teams?

Hellcrooner
02-16-2012, 02:52 PM
1992-93 Bulls 57 wins
1993-94 Bulls 55 Wins

2 wins uh? big deal.

Jordan was the Cherry of the ice, the cherry that meant the difference between falling at conference finals ( had the refs not screwed) and getting a title.

You put Kobe on that roster ad they still win titles, you put Kareem, or wilt and they win titles, you put bird or magic and they will win titles.

1990-91 Lakers 58 wins
1991-92 lakers 43 wins.

:rolleyes:

Pierzynski4Prez
02-16-2012, 03:04 PM
Tell me, when did Jordan face a team in the finals with the likes of D Johnson ( hof) Walton (hof) Ainge, Bird( Hof top 5player ever), Mchale ( Hof top 3-5 pf ever), Parish ( Hof) , or a team with a top 3-5 Center ever in moses malone + probably the best or at lest top 3 defensive player ever in bobby jones + a top 15 player ever like Dr J .
Or thomas ( hof), Dumars( Hof), Aguirre( as) Lambier ( as), rodman ( Hof) etc etc.

Sure he met those celtics and pistons often int he 80s.

Know what? he failed against them time after time during the 84-91 span and only was able to take care of them when they were in their late 30s and on a complete decline and with the help of the best coach ever on his side.

Wich remembers me, what was the recod of the bulls drop off when he retired to play baseball? 2-3 games in teh regular season? Pipps bulls were also ROBBED of getting to conference finals that year against theknicks by refs.

I strongly consider Stockton to be a top 5 PG of all time, as well as Karl Malone a top 5 PF of all time. So 2 top 5 players of all time at their positions on the same team in their primes. Yet they lost back to back finals to the Bulls. I consider that pretty good competition. :shrug:

JordansBulls
02-16-2012, 03:05 PM
1992-93 Bulls 57 wins
1993-94 Bulls 55 Wins

2 wins uh? big deal.

Jordan was the Cherry of the ice, the cherry that meant the difference between falling at conference finals ( had the refs not screwed) and getting a title.

You put Kobe on that roster ad they still win titles, you put Kareem, or wilt and they win titles, you put bird or magic and they will win titles.

1990-91 Lakers 58 wins
1991-92 lakers 43 wins.

:rolleyes:

First off, one team won a title and another got to round 2.
Next off the Bulls had an expected win-loss of 58-24 in 1993 and a SRS rating of 6.19 while in 1994 they had a expected win-loss of 50-32 and SRS of 2.47.


It is quite funny that a lot of people think that the 1994 Bulls were essential the same only without Jordan. Well, the Bulls gave 43% of the minutes in 1993/94 to 7 players who didn't play a single minute for the 1993 Bulls. Half of the roster was new, but somehow people believe it was the same team.
The other thing is that the 1993 Bulls had to play 4 games without Jordan. They went 1-3 in those games. The only game they won was against the Mavericks, probably the worst team in NBA history with a -14.68 SRS that season.

No, the 1993 Bulls would have not won a championship without Jordan and they were also not so close to it one year later with a different roster.



On to your other points.

Regarding the Lakers decrease in wins from 1991 to 1992.

You mean the year Worthy missed 28 games and Vlade missed 46 games. They lose Magic, Worthy misses that much time and Vlade missed that much time and still won that many games.


Let's see. Wilt the Lakers were in 5 finals before he got there and only won 1 title with them. They were 52-30 in 1968 and then added Wilt and went 55-27 in 1969.

With Kareem he was great statisically but people forget that once Oscar left the team went from 59 wins to 38 wins and didn't make the playoffs. So was Oscar really that important to the success of the Bucks at that age?

Kareem gets traded to the Lakers and the Bucks the team Kareem was on the previous year makes the playoffs while Kareem on his new team did not.

Magic loses to a team below .500 in the playoffs a team that was 40-42. On a 62 win team he loses in 5 to a 51 win team. In 1990 on a 63 win team he loses in 5 to a 54 win team.
Magic played with Kareem and Worthy both of which won finals mvp's.

Bird lost 7 series with HCA and had more talented teams and never won a series without
HCA, so yeah I'm sure he ain't winning with the Bulls squads.

BTW the only guy on that list who won with a team that never won a title before he arrived was Kareem with the Bucks.

AWC713
02-16-2012, 03:08 PM
this.

people so easily forget that jordan and co were wiped out of the playoffs in 95 from shaq and penny

JordansBulls
02-16-2012, 03:10 PM
people so easily forget that jordan and co were wiped out of the playoffs in 95 from shaq and penny

You mean a #1 seed that won 57 games beating a #5 seed that won 47 games?:rolleyes:

Magic was on the Lakers that won 54 games and who lost to a team that won 40 games. Those are the type of losses that matter. Magic on the 62 win Lakers in 1986 loses to a 51 win team in Houston.

Hawkeye15
02-16-2012, 03:11 PM
Tell me, when did Jordan face a team in the finals with the likes of D Johnson ( hof) Walton (hof) Ainge, Bird( Hof top 5player ever), Mchale ( Hof top 3-5 pf ever), Parish ( Hof) , or a team with a top 3-5 Center ever in moses malone + probably the best or at lest top 3 defensive player ever in bobby jones + a top 15 player ever like Dr J .
Or thomas ( hof), Dumars( Hof), Aguirre( as) Lambier ( as), rodman ( Hof) etc etc.

Sure he met those celtics and pistons often int he 80s.

Know what? he failed against them time after time during the 84-91 span and only was able to take care of them when they were in their late 30s and on a complete decline and with the help of the best coach ever on his side.

Wich remembers me, what was the recod of the bulls drop off when he retired to play baseball? 2-3 games in teh regular season? Pipps bulls were also ROBBED of getting to conference finals that year against theknicks by refs.

Wait, are you talking about Jordan's failures as a young player with no roster yet against Bird and Magic and their seasoned teams with them in their peak? That is a fail man.

Fact is, Jordan dominated his era more so then any other player in history individually, and team wise. His numbers, accolades, awards, level of play, and anything else you want to throw out there trump Magic.

Rentzias
02-16-2012, 03:12 PM
If not stop wasting ink and everyones time.
Ink? And thanks for quoting the gigantic trademark JB Jordan defense to save ink.

This always degenerates into this type of discussion, but the point about Jordan being elite defensively is a strong point in his favor v. Magic.

Hellcrooner
02-16-2012, 03:14 PM
Wait, are you talking about Jordan's failures as a young player with no roster yet against Bird and Magic and their seasoned teams with them in their peak? That is a fail man.

Fact is, Jordan dominated his era more so then any other player in history individually, and team wise. His numbers, accolades, awards, level of play, and anything else you want to throw out there trump Magic.

The fact is that during his "reign" there were 0 teams with the quality and depth that the 80s Lakers, Celtics, Pistons, Sixers had.

Check the Rockets vs Knicks finals, outside of dream and teh big jamaican they were probably the worse rosters to make the finals since the 70s.

Hawkeye15
02-16-2012, 03:15 PM
I am all for arguments sake, but I find it very disturbing that anyone would think another player than Michael Jordan is the best to ever play.

Hawkeye15
02-16-2012, 03:17 PM
The fact is that during his "reign" there were 0 teams with the quality and depth that the 80s Lakers, Celtics, Pistons, Sixers had.

Check the Rockets vs Knicks finals, outside of dream and teh big jamaican they were probably the worse rosters to make the finals since the 70s.

you are stuck on 80's team, most likely because that is what you watched as a small child, turning you into a basketball fan. I get that. But how can you say there weren't a ton of quality teams during Jordan't reign? He beat an awesome Pistons and Lakers team to start it. He went thru Portland, Seattle, the Jazz, teams that all had HOF'ers on them, and great records. He dominated the sport on both ends. MUCH better stats. Didn't lose a finals. Just a better player, period.

Anyways, I find these debates kind of stupid. I feel basketball and hockey are pretty clean cut on who the GOAT is.

Hellcrooner
02-16-2012, 03:17 PM
You mean a #1 seed that won 57 games beating a #5 seed that won 47 games?:rolleyes:

Magic was on the Lakers that won 54 games and who lost to a team that won 40 games. Those are the type of losses that matter. Magic on the 62 win Lakers in 1986 loses to a 51 win team in Houston.

Ever heard of match ups?

They had no answer to the Twin towers in 86.

And ill tell it another time.

Its not the same wining 50 on a 20 team league than in a 30 team league.


You put the 80s Mavs, Nuggets, Bucks, late 80s cavs in the CURRENT 30 team league and they could make finals/win rings quite easily.

rickshaw
02-16-2012, 03:19 PM
Jordan never had to face a dominant center in the Finals.

Jordan never got to play with one

KnicksorBust
02-16-2012, 03:26 PM
Tell me, when did Jordan face a team in the finals with the likes of D Johnson ( hof) Walton (hof) Ainge, Bird( Hof top 5player ever), Mchale ( Hof top 3-5 pf ever), Parish ( Hof) , or a team with a top 3-5 Center ever in moses malone + probably the best or at lest top 3 defensive player ever in bobby jones + a top 15 player ever like Dr J .
Or thomas ( hof), Dumars( Hof), Aguirre( as) Lambier ( as), rodman ( Hof) etc etc.

Sure he met those celtics and pistons often int he 80s.

Know what? he failed against them time after time during the 84-91 span and only was able to take care of them when they were in their late 30s and on a complete decline and with the help of the best coach ever on his side.

Wich remembers me, what was the recod of the bulls drop off when he retired to play baseball? 2-3 games in teh regular season? Pipps bulls were also ROBBED of getting to conference finals that year against theknicks by refs.

Tell me, how many titles did Magic win without Kareem (a GOAT candidate himself)? Tell me, how many did Magic lead the Lakers in scoring during those playoff series? Tell me, how many all-defensive teams Magic was on?

Hint: The answers are all the same.

Magic had more help than MJ ever had, and still couldn't win as many titles. The Lakers scoring was carried to a huge extent by players like Kareem, Worthy, and even Scott-Mac-Wilkes (which is why Magic doesn't have as many Finals MVPs as he has championship rings). Magic was the most questionable defensive player of any top 10 player.

Those 3 facts alone are all I need to slide him below MJ.

MickeyMgl
02-16-2012, 03:27 PM
even with one more ring magic wouldnt surpass mj(not even getting the double retirement of mj that would have seen his ring total rise as well).

I love how Jordan's fans just take this for granted, that the Bulls would've done something nobody has done since the 60s when the playoffs were three weeks long, instead of two months. It's exhausting going to the Finals three years in a row, so much so that Jordan didn't even want to try. (I'm giving him the benefit of the doubt on his "retirement", because the likeliest alternative is that he was quietly suspended for gambling.) And if they had tried, it would've been the only time they had to face a dominant center in the Finals.



91 represented the akers best chance of the decade.i highly doubt the lakers would even get out f the west.and a not getting any younger magic and divac wouldnt have been nearly enough to be a serious threat to the suns that were put together right after

Right, because the Lakers would've come back with the exact same team around Magic. :eyebrow:

haggis
02-16-2012, 03:35 PM
Crooner-

Where do you personally rank Jordan all time?

(Obviously behind the Gasols and Fran Vasquez)

KnicksorBust
02-16-2012, 03:36 PM
Wait, are you talking about Jordan's failures as a young player with no roster yet against Bird and Magic and their seasoned teams with them in their peak? That is a fail man.

Fact is, Jordan dominated his era more so then any other player in history individually, and team wise. His numbers, accolades, awards, level of play, and anything else you want to throw out there trump Magic.

Exactly. If you made a checklist of the top 20 characteristics of a superstar, Jordan would win 18 out of 20.

He's no brainer.

MickeyMgl
02-16-2012, 03:37 PM
Magic is GOAT??? LOL...yall cant be serious!! Magic walked onto a hall of fame team straight out of college

So? That means he's not the greatest?



...Jordan on the other hand had to struggle, get be beat down constantly from the Celtics and the Detroit Bad Boys for years before he overcame with getting some assistance from Pippen and Co.... and he got his first ring by kickin Magic and Co. off the throne!!!

Jordan is GOAT!!! HANDS DOWN....in your discussions and evaluations of the topic at hand... please name me one other basketball player in the discussion of GOAT who is 6-0 in Championships....JORDAN NEVER WENT TO THE FINALS AND LOST...Again....name me another who won 3 straight...took a holiday for 2 years...and came back and won 3 more....are u serious????...lol...JORDAN ALL DAY!!!!

6-0 in the Finals means as much as saying his teams won six times. 0 points deducted for reaching the Finals and losing. And of course, when his teams failed to reach the Finals, it wasn't his fault, right? Because he "had to struggle" before "getting some assistance". They don't have anything to do with those six championships, though? He gets all the credit?

Try and stick to one consistent thread of logic. Yeah, Magic had great teammates. So did Jordan. Magic had great opponents, too. Jordan... not so much. 5 championships, 9 Finals appearances, in 12 seasons. And one of those losses, he and his backcourt mate hardly played.

MickeyMgl
02-16-2012, 03:44 PM
nope, Jordan is the best player to ever play. It wasn't just length of time (by the way, if you want to point to Magic leaving at 32, don't forget to throw in MJ walked away in his peak for a couple of seasons, so he may just as easily had 8 rings).

Jordan gets extra points for quitting. Magic and Bird each went to the Finals four years in a row. It's exhausting.



Jordan's peak was so far and away better than any other basketball player of his era, including Magic, he never lost a finals, he set every scoring record in the book

Except for all the ones he didn't, right? Were those removed from the book?

The Final Boss
02-16-2012, 03:50 PM
Jordan is Always gonna be the best but I've been thinking about how Magic left the game at age 32 with 5 rings....if he didn't get HIV and leave the game would Jordan still have 6 rings......I feel as though had Magic not gotton HIV he would have won at least 1 more ring....

If Worthy was healthy the Lakers would have beaten the Bulls in the Finals. That loss is the equivalent of Chicago losing Pippen.

The Final Boss
02-16-2012, 03:52 PM
Jordan gets extra points for quitting. Magic and Bird each went to the Finals four years in a row. It's exhausting.



Except for all the ones he didn't, right? Were those removed from the book?

:laugh: How about MJ setting the precedent of athletes having their fathers murdered because of their ego? Oh, right... MJ was the only athlete to do that.

Wagner14
02-16-2012, 03:53 PM
I consider Magic Johnson the greatest point guard of all time and greatest Laker of all time... that's it though.

What about Wilt Chamberlain? Not saying that I think he's better but surely you'd have to consider him when talking about the greatest Laker of all time. His numbers are straight up FLITHY ... lol.

Hellcrooner
02-16-2012, 03:54 PM
Crooner-

Where do you personally rank Jordan all time?

(Obviously behind the Gasols and Fran Vasquez)

Second Under Magic and Over Kareem.

But i understand the top 3 of each person could and SHOULD look completely different i can respect someone telling jordan, Kareem Wilt, or russel or Bird or Robertson is the goat ,i wont agree but i will understand that someone can make that point.

My beef is not that someone considers Jordan goat, because his resume grants that he can definelty be considered it and among the aforementioned elite he is one of the players with an EASIER case to make ( being Birds probably the most difficult point to make).

My point is that nothing ( except maths) is irrefutable in this world and that using the terms as "hands down" "unidsputable" goat regarding a player is sheer b.s everything can be debated ( on a certain limits obviously , you cant have say Gasol in a goat discussion, maybe spanish born goat discussion and btw he is NOT the spanish Goat for me).

What makes me more mad bout Jordan is the Massive Media support he has had into imprssing him as goar in peoples mind asn in a PaVlovian conditioning experiment.

And of course the thing that makes me angrier is the " there will never be a better player than Mj" stupidity.

Wagner14
02-16-2012, 04:02 PM
Also, I'm more of a fan of stats when comparing players rather then rings. I just feel like stats are more of personal accomplishments and rings are team accomplishments. Not to say that rings mean nothing but maybe when talking about the greatest player of all time we should be looking at stats first? Thats why I brought up Wilt Chamberlain.

Also, I believe that offensively the NBA was easier to score in when Jordan was playing compared to when Wilt was. A lot of rules were put in place to limit defenders while or before Jordan was playing. It was a lot harder to score when Wilt was playing. Also, Jordan was ESPN's first real "poster boy" and maybe they just put Jordan on a pedistal so high that nobody really questions him anymore.
I don't know. Just thoughts.

MickeyMgl
02-16-2012, 04:05 PM
First off, one team won a title and another got to round 2.
Next off the Bulls had an expected win-loss of 58-24 in 1993 and a SRS rating of 6.19 while in 1994 they had a expected win-loss of 50-32 and SRS of 2.47.

What's "expected" win-loss? Is that anything like "actual" win-loss?

JordansBulls
02-16-2012, 04:29 PM
What's "expected" win-loss? Is that anything like "actual" win-loss?


It basically counts up the total win shares of each player on the team and adds them up to produce how many games you should have won.



1993

Michael Jordan 17.2
Horace Grant 9.1
Scottie Pippen 8.6
B.J. Armstrong 7.5
Scott Williams 3.9
Trent Tucker 2.8
Will Perdue 2.5
John Paxson 1.9
Stacey King 1.9
Bill Cartwright 1.2
Rodney McCray 0.9
Darrell Walker 0.6
Ed Nealy 0.2
Corey Williams 0.2
Joe Courtney 0
Ricky Blanton 0
Jo Jo English -0.1
58.4




1994
Scottie Pippen 11.2
Horace Grant 10
B.J. Armstrong 7.5
Steve Kerr 6.1
Bill Wennington 3.5
Toni Kukoc 3.2
Pete Myers 3
Scott Williams 1.7
Luc Longley 1.3
Bill Cartwright 1.3
Corie Blount 1.2
John Paxson 0.6
Stacey King 0.4
Will Perdue 0.2
Jo Jo English 0
Dave Johnson -0.2
51


For instance MJ alone had 17.2 Win Shares in 1993, but in 1994 these guys added up to be 18.8 Win Shares as they were not on the 1993 team.



Kerr 6.6
Wennington 3.5
Kukoc 3.2
Myers 3
Longley 1.3
Blount 1.2
18.8

ManningToTyree
02-16-2012, 04:32 PM
MJ is the GOAT and as great as Magic was it really isn't even that close.

mRc08
02-16-2012, 04:34 PM
just see JB's posts

Hellcrooner
02-16-2012, 04:53 PM
It basically counts up the total win shares of each player on the team and adds them up to produce how many games you should have won.



1993

Michael Jordan 17.2
Horace Grant 9.1
Scottie Pippen 8.6
B.J. Armstrong 7.5
Scott Williams 3.9
Trent Tucker 2.8
Will Perdue 2.5
John Paxson 1.9
Stacey King 1.9
Bill Cartwright 1.2
Rodney McCray 0.9
Darrell Walker 0.6
Ed Nealy 0.2
Corey Williams 0.2
Joe Courtney 0
Ricky Blanton 0
Jo Jo English -0.1
58.4




1994
Scottie Pippen 11.2
Horace Grant 10
B.J. Armstrong 7.5
Steve Kerr 6.1
Bill Wennington 3.5
Toni Kukoc 3.2
Pete Myers 3
Scott Williams 1.7
Luc Longley 1.3
Bill Cartwright 1.3
Corie Blount 1.2
John Paxson 0.6
Stacey King 0.4
Will Perdue 0.2
Jo Jo English 0
Dave Johnson -0.2
51


For instance MJ alone had 17.2 Win Shares in 1993, but in 1994 these guys added up to be 18.8 Win Shares as they were not on the 1993 team.



Kerr 6.6
Wennington 3.5
Kukoc 3.2
Myers 3
Longley 1.3
Blount 1.2
18.8


Basically a b.s stat because a thers no IFS or should haves when the result is already there.

LakersEaglesLA
02-16-2012, 04:56 PM
Magic dominated 80s (which Jordan was involved in 84-89) Jordan dominated the 90s. Best ever Basketball vs Worst ever Basketball..MAGIC GOAT! Stop with the lame excuse that Jordan didnt have a good enough team around him. I dont see none of you Jordan worshipers giving Kobe a break when he had Smush Parker and Kwame Brown(Hypocrites)..Yal say he did everything by himself when he won, but couldnt do it by himself in the 80s when he faced great players in their PRIME! You might find another player close to Jordan (Kobe) but you will never find a 6'9 point guard triple double machine, clutch, with the skills of Magic Johnson. Just imagine if he didnt get hiv, He retired at 32. Play in 9 finals (won 5) at 32 yrs. wow!! he wasnt an above the rim player, he would have dominated at least another 5 years.

MichaelJordan23
02-16-2012, 04:59 PM
I honestly don't think anyone will ever pass Jordan, most people didn't live thru his era and witness his dominance as it happened. Magic is the 2nd greatest player of all time in my opinion, yes his career was held wayyy too short due to his HIV but you have to understand Jordan also lost a few years due to his retirings.

MichaelJordan23
02-16-2012, 05:01 PM
I have a really hard time saying anyone is the greatest of all time due to their different situations, different positions, different eras etc, I basically base it off who would you choose all time to build your team around? I choose Jordan.

The Final Boss
02-16-2012, 05:09 PM
I have a really hard time saying anyone is the greatest of all time due to their different situations, different positions, different eras etc, I basically base it off who would you choose all time to build your team around? I choose Jordan.

Jordan the cancer who alienated his coaches and teammates?

raiderfaninTX
02-16-2012, 05:20 PM
:laugh: How about MJ setting the precedent of athletes having their fathers murdered because of their ego? Oh, right... MJ was the only athlete to do that.

the most ****ed up post I have ever seen on PSD

AllKohn
02-16-2012, 05:28 PM
In my humble opinion Michael Jordan was the best overall player I've ever seen play. The argument that if Magic didn't get himself infected with a disease he would be the GOAT is foolish. Getting infected was because of his lifestyle-and changing that would be akin to him changing his jump shot.

So in my opinion

Jordan
Hakeem
Duncan

Those are the best 3 since I've been watching.

Honorable mention to Gary payton.

MichaelJordan23
02-16-2012, 05:38 PM
Jordan the cancer who alienated his coaches and teammates?

The cancer who won 6 Finals MVPs, yes sir, that cancer :rolleyes:

knightstemplar
02-16-2012, 06:02 PM
If Jordan didn't retire for a year during, he'd have 8 rings right now, so no...

he played in the '95 playoffs you know

knightstemplar
02-16-2012, 06:16 PM
Also MJ has 5 finals in the top 15 all time with all 6 in the top 26 and Kobe has 0 finals performances in the top 50 and has a all time top 10 worst finals performance.
http://proxy.espn.go.com/nba/playoffs2008/columns/story?columnist=hollinger_john&page=FinalsPerformances-2



Not true

PER

1. Dwyane Wade Mia 2006 - 33.8
2. Tim Duncan SA 2003 - 32.0
3. Michael Jordan Chi 1991 - 31.5
4. Shaquille O'Neal LAL 2002 - 31.4
5. Shaquille O'Neal LAL 2000 - 31.1
6. Michael Jordan Chi 1998 - - 30.8
7. Tim Duncan SA 1999 - 30.7
8. Dwyane Wade Mia 2011 - 30.2
9. Michael Jordan Chi 1997 - 29.5
10. Shaquille O'Neal LAL 2001 - 29.4
11. Michael Jordan, Chicago, 1992 - 29.2
12. KOBE BRYANT, LOS ANGELES, 2009 - 28.3
13. Magic Johnson, Los Angeles Lakers, 1987 - 28.2
14. MICHAEL JORDAN, CHICAGO, 1993 - 27.6
15. MAGIC JOHNSON, LOS ANGELES, 1988 - 27.5
16. KAREEM ABDUL-JABBAR, L.A. LAKERS, 1980 - 27.3
17. Hakeem Olajuwon, Houston, 1994 - 27.1
ISIAH THOMAS, DETROIT, 1990 - 27.1
CHAUNCEY BILLUPS, DETROIT, 2004 - 27.1
20. KARL MALONE, UTAH, 1998 - 26.8
21. KOBE BRYANT, L.A. LAKERS, 2010 - 26.3
DAVID ROBINSON, SAN ANTONIO, 1999 - 26.3
23. CLYDE DREXLER, PORTLAND, 1990 - 26.0
MOSES MALONE, PHILADELPHIA, 1983 - 26.0
TONY PARKER, SAN ANTONIO, 2007 - 26.0
JOE DUMARS, DETROIT, 1989 - 26.0

Kobe has a Finals performance that is top 15 in PER, another in the top 25
And I'm sure Kobe '02 Finals is top 50 in PER ATLEAST, but I don't know what his PER was in that series

knightstemplar
02-16-2012, 06:18 PM
I consider Magic the Goat.

Because thats how things should be, people should be free to chose who they think the goat is ( among worhty candidates, ok? no Jeremy Lins thanks) instead of having to put up with one being forced into our throats by media, shoe companys, mcdonalds, espn, gatorade and so on and on and on fro 30 years now.

Jordan is ONE of the heaviest candidates with Magic, Wilt, RObertson, Kareem, Bird, Kobe, Bird, Hakeem

But shouldnt be considered Hands down/ no questions made / blah blah blah goat, no one ever should be considered that.


And that not taking on account that is stupid to compare players on different positions.

I though Gasol was the MVP of the Lakers? lol

Lakers + Giants
02-16-2012, 06:21 PM
IMO Magic is the GOAT or at least tied with Jordan. I'm probably being bias because i'm a laker fan. Laker fan or not though he is AT LEAST the 2nd best player to ever play the game.

knightstemplar
02-16-2012, 06:39 PM
better career - MJ
better player - Magic, if he played in '92-'95 (4 more years) he would be GOAT imo

in '91 he averaged 22/8/13 leading his team to the Finals
The dude still had a lot left in the tank

5 rings, 8 finals in the 80's (vs, Bird's Cs, DrJ and Malone's Sixers, Bad boy Pistons > 6 rings, 6 finals in the 90's (uh...Drexler's Blazers?)

If he played more, but since he didn't Jordan is the GOAT

Pierzynski4Prez
02-16-2012, 06:56 PM
Magic dominated 80s (which Jordan was involved in 84-89) Jordan dominated the 90s. Best ever Basketball vs Worst ever Basketball..MAGIC GOAT! Stop with the lame excuse that Jordan didnt have a good enough team around him. I dont see none of you Jordan worshipers giving Kobe a break when he had Smush Parker and Kwame Brown(Hypocrites)..Yal say he did everything by himself when he won, but couldnt do it by himself in the 80s when he faced great players in their PRIME! You might find another player close to Jordan (Kobe) but you will never find a 6'9 point guard triple double machine, clutch, with the skills of Magic Johnson. Just imagine if he didnt get hiv, He retired at 32. Play in 9 finals (won 5) at 32 yrs. wow!! he wasnt an above the rim player, he would have dominated at least another 5 years.

This is quite funny. Maybe nobody said anything because during those years the Lakers were 34-48 (2005), 45-37 (2006), and 42-40 (2007). :facepalm:

MickeyMgl
02-16-2012, 06:58 PM
You mean a #1 seed that won 57 games beating a #5 seed that won 47 games?:rolleyes:

Magic was on the Lakers that won 54 games and who lost to a team that won 40 games. Those are the type of losses that matter. Magic on the 62 win Lakers in 1986 loses to a 51 win team in Houston.

In 1981, Magic played 37 games due to a knee injury that required surgery. He returned just in time for the playoffs. Maybe he shouldn't have. Win totals seem to be a very big part of your arguments, but you should try and understand that 50 wins was more difficult in the 80s than it is today.

In 1986, the Lakers were attempting to reach the Finals for the 5th straight year, something nobody has done since the 60s, when the playoffs were much shorter. Jordan was too tired to ever even try for four. I guess quitting is better than losing, right?

mRc08
02-16-2012, 07:00 PM
just search "magic talks mj" on youtube. he says it himself

MickeyMgl
02-16-2012, 07:17 PM
I honestly don't think anyone will ever pass Jordan, most people didn't live thru his era.

What, you think they're dead? It wasn't that long ago. I remember, and without all the polish that's been added.

MickeyMgl
02-16-2012, 07:19 PM
I have a really hard time saying anyone is the greatest of all time due to their different situations, different positions, different eras etc, I basically base it off who would you choose all time to build your team around? I choose Jordan.

Honestly, I love a moderate, measured statement, and this is it. It's very reasonable, and I even agree with the first part, about singling out ONE player as THE greatest. That part makes the second part palatable. Although I don't share it, I can respect you or anyone's preference for Jordan.

MickeyMgl
02-16-2012, 07:24 PM
Not true

PER

1. Dwyane Wade Mia 2006 - 33.8
2. Tim Duncan SA 2003 - 32.0
3. Michael Jordan Chi 1991 - 31.5
4. Shaquille O'Neal LAL 2002 - 31.4
5. Shaquille O'Neal LAL 2000 - 31.1
6. Michael Jordan Chi 1998 - - 30.8
7. Tim Duncan SA 1999 - 30.7
8. Dwyane Wade Mia 2011 - 30.2
9. Michael Jordan Chi 1997 - 29.5
10. Shaquille O'Neal LAL 2001 - 29.4
11. Michael Jordan, Chicago, 1992 - 29.2
12. KOBE BRYANT, LOS ANGELES, 2009 - 28.3
13. Magic Johnson, Los Angeles Lakers, 1987 - 28.2
14. MICHAEL JORDAN, CHICAGO, 1993 - 27.6
15. MAGIC JOHNSON, LOS ANGELES, 1988 - 27.5
16. KAREEM ABDUL-JABBAR, L.A. LAKERS, 1980 - 27.3
17. Hakeem Olajuwon, Houston, 1994 - 27.1
ISIAH THOMAS, DETROIT, 1990 - 27.1
CHAUNCEY BILLUPS, DETROIT, 2004 - 27.1
19. KARL MALONE, UTAH, 1998 - 26.8
20. KOBE BRYANT, L.A. LAKERS, 2010 - 26.3
DAVID ROBINSON, SAN ANTONIO, 1999 - 26.3
22. CLYDE DREXLER, PORTLAND, 1990 - 26.0
MOSES MALONE, PHILADELPHIA, 1983 - 26.0
TONY PARKER, SAN ANTONIO, 2007 - 26.0
JOE DUMARS, DETROIT, 1989 - 26.0

Kobe has a Finals performance that is top 15 in PER, 2 of them top 20
And I'm sure Kobe '02 Finals is top 50 in PER ATLEAST, but I don't know what his PER was in that series

When it's convenient, they prefer somebody's subjective list over a statistical measurement.

MickeyMgl
02-16-2012, 07:28 PM
This is quite funny. Maybe nobody said anything because during those years the Lakers were 34-48 (2005), 45-37 (2006), and 42-40 (2007). :facepalm:

:(
Sounds like somebody didn't understand the context of the statement. Jordan's teams were winning right around that much during the years in question.

Ray
02-16-2012, 07:43 PM
Jordan the cancer who alienated his coaches and teammates?

You can phrase is this way as well: "Jordan the guy who demanded the best out of his teammates because he expected nothing less"

Pippen was a good player, but Jordan made Pippen into a great player. Pippen was mentally weak in the beginning of his career, he would always get rattled going against tough teams, especially Detroit. Jordan helped him through that, it may have been tough love, but it was effective, and Pippen is a Hall of Famer because of it.

SteveNash
02-16-2012, 07:52 PM
Magic was definitely the better basketball player. I think the end of their careers is the best example. With overweight, AIDS riddled Magic playing PF and having a positive impact on his team. While Wizards Jordan was more of a team cancer, playing selfish basketball.

Jordan was definitely more of an athlete than a basketball player.

BTG50EAGLE
02-16-2012, 07:53 PM
Magic revolutionized the game, played all 5 positions, changed the way the PG positioned was played. My favourite player ever.
But Jordan is amazing as well, 6x champ. Absolute freak of nature. Maybe the greatest athlete of all time. Damn this is tough.
1A. Jordan
1B. Magic

Pierzynski4Prez
02-16-2012, 08:23 PM
:(
Sounds like somebody didn't understand the context of the statement. Jordan's teams were winning right around that much during the years in question.

So are you saying Jordan's 1st 3 years (including his 2nd season where he missed 64 games) are equal to Kobe's 9-11th? Sounds like you didn't even try to use any logic after trying to understand the context.

naps
02-16-2012, 08:41 PM
LMFAO!! Crooner is probably the only one who thinks Jordan is not the GOAT. As I predicted last night JB owned this thread. HC has no rebuttal on JB's posts. It's probably the easiest thing ever to make a case of Jordan being the GOAT. You make the categories and characteristics for a GOAT and Jordan would win in 90% of them. Magic has no case for GOAT. Kareem has a better case to be honest.

Michael Jordan is the undisputed greatest of all time hands down, pants down. If you don't know this you don't know basketball.

Hellcrooner
02-16-2012, 11:16 PM
I though Gasol was the MVP of the Lakers? lol

No.

gasol SHOULD HAVE BEEN the 2010 finals mvp

wich doesnt mean he is the best player in the team.

as in Magic was lakers best player but Worhty got one finals Mvp.

Hellcrooner
02-16-2012, 11:18 PM
LMFAO!! Crooner is probably the only one who thinks Jordan is not the GOAT. As I predicted last night JB owned this thread. HC has no rebuttal on JB's posts. It's probably the easiest thing ever to make a case of Jordan being the GOAT. You make the categories and characteristics for a GOAT and Jordan would win in 90% of them. Magic has no case for GOAT. Kareem has a better case to be honest.

Michael Jordan is the undisputed greatest of all time hands down, pants down. If you don't know this you don't know basketball.

He has proven jack.

basing all in demagogic statements and measures.

You know what?

maybe im the only one.

but at some point there was one man telling everybody the earth WAS NOT FLAT, he got laughed on, baited on and made fun of.

know what?

eart IS NOT FLAT.

LakersEaglesLA
02-16-2012, 11:19 PM
So are you saying Jordan's 1st 3 years (including his 2nd season where he missed 64 games) are equal to Kobe's 9-11th? Sounds like you didn't even try to use any logic after trying to understand the context.

What I am telling you is Jordan's butt kissers are all over the place, losing credibility every debate.. When someone points out that Magic won 5 championships and played in 9 in his 12 years (in the 80s best teams EVER!) you guys say he had great teammates. Although Kareem was 40 and 41 yrs old and couldnt jump any more for 2 of the championships. But when you talk abt Jordan 6 championships you never mention Pippen HOF, Rodman HOF, Kerr best 3 point shooter, H Grant great player, Phil Jackson best coach.. All the credit goes to Jordan when he wins. Magic, Bird and Isiah whipped Jordan from 84-90 but yal never admit that, its like you want to brain wash people into believing Jordan was drafted in 1991 lol crazy.. But you same Jordan apologist have the audacity to say Kobe isnt as good as Jordan because he didnt win with smush and kwame brown..And even when Kobe wins you guys say its because of Shaq and Pau LMAO!! Sooo unfair. No one wins Championships alone and that includes Jordan. Jordan started winning when Magic got hiv, Bird hurt his back and had to retire, and all those GREAT 80s team got old. But even after all of that Jordan ranks 2nd right now behind Magic and Kobe is on his @$$

Bruno
02-16-2012, 11:20 PM
If Jordan didn't retire for a year during, he'd have 8 rings right now, so no...

Disagree. They would have run out of gas eventually. The two year break was exactly what the doctor ordered. No team can go that deep into June for that many years in a row and not lose their legs eventually. C's were able to do it in the 60's because of the size of the talent pool, and the fact that the playoffs were only two rounds for the bulk of their titles.

Bruno
02-16-2012, 11:22 PM
Magic is the greatest offensive facilitator in league history. Greatest offensive team player in league history. His defense, and the fact that he retired at 31 hurt him. Defense and longevity hurts him in a GOAT debate. There are so many guys who were better two way players.

rickshaw
02-17-2012, 12:46 AM
not true

per

1. Dwyane wade mia 2006 - 33.8
2. Tim duncan sa 2003 - 32.0
3. Michael jordan chi 1991 - 31.5
4. Shaquille o'neal lal 2002 - 31.4
5. Shaquille o'neal lal 2000 - 31.1
6. Michael jordan chi 1998 - - 30.8
7. Tim duncan sa 1999 - 30.7
8. Dwyane wade mia 2011 - 30.2
9. Michael jordan chi 1997 - 29.5
10. Shaquille o'neal lal 2001 - 29.4
11. Michael jordan, chicago, 1992 - 29.2
12. Kobe bryant, los angeles, 2009 - 28.3
13. Magic johnson, los angeles lakers, 1987 - 28.2
14. Michael jordan, chicago, 1993 - 27.6
15. Magic johnson, los angeles, 1988 - 27.5
16. Kareem abdul-jabbar, l.a. Lakers, 1980 - 27.3
17. Hakeem olajuwon, houston, 1994 - 27.1
isiah thomas, detroit, 1990 - 27.1
chauncey billups, detroit, 2004 - 27.1
19. Karl malone, utah, 1998 - 26.8
20. Kobe bryant, l.a. Lakers, 2010 - 26.3
david robinson, san antonio, 1999 - 26.3
22. Clyde drexler, portland, 1990 - 26.0
moses malone, philadelphia, 1983 - 26.0
tony parker, san antonio, 2007 - 26.0
joe dumars, detroit, 1989 - 26.0

kobe has a finals performance that is top 15 in per, 2 of them top 20
and i'm sure kobe '02 finals is top 50 in per atleast, but i don't know what his per was in that series

21*

knightstemplar
02-17-2012, 12:56 AM
No.

gasol SHOULD HAVE BEEN the 2010 finals mvp

wich doesnt mean he is the best player in the team.

as in Magic was lakers best player but Worhty got one finals Mvp.

Points
Kobe 28.6
Gasol 18.6

Rebounding
Gasol 11.6
Kobe 8.0

dont see it man, but Gasol was huge though no doubt

MickeyMgl
02-17-2012, 06:52 AM
So are you saying Jordan's 1st 3 years (including his 2nd season where he missed 64 games) are equal to Kobe's 9-11th? Sounds like you didn't even try to use any logic after trying to understand the context.

The statement that was made was about their respective teammates, and how Jordan gets a pass for being on bad-to-mediocre teams because he allegedly didn't have any help, but the same people don't extend the same courtesy to Bryant when he had a crappy team.

What does it matter what season they were in their career?

MickeyMgl
02-17-2012, 07:06 AM
Magic is the greatest offensive facilitator in league history. Greatest offensive team player in league history. His defense, and the fact that he retired at 31 hurt him. Defense and longevity hurts him in a GOAT debate. There are so many guys who were better two way players.

Magic's defense is underrated. Before his early-career knee injury slowed him down, he led the league in steals twice. In one of his early seasons, he was among the leaders in Defensive Rating, and another year among the leaders in Defensive Win Shares.

Even after that, he was always a very good help defender. He just couldn't stick with the little guys one-on-one anymore.

Ty Fast
02-17-2012, 12:30 PM
If Jordan didn't retire for a year during, he'd have 8 rings right now, so no...

8 in a row and if he never retired after beting utah he could have had 9 or 10.

ChicagoJ
02-17-2012, 12:37 PM
I don't know how many people here are old enough to remember, but there was a time when this debate dominated nba sports talk. Who is better magic or mj? At the time larry bird said it was magic because of the championships. He said if he was picking a team he'd pick magic first then Micheal second. Of course that was before MJ won 6 titles three-peating twice.

I think both are great players and I'm glad I got to watch both of them play during their eras. One thing about MJ though, I seem to remember him playing the point guard role due to a team injury during a stretch and he recorded 10 triple doubles in 11 games. The game he didn't get it he had 40 points, 11 assists and 7 rebounds. 3 boards away from breaking the record for consecutive triple double games (according to Wikipedia). At least when he had to play the same role Magic did for his career, mj was quite good at it.

ink
02-17-2012, 01:21 PM
Jordan is Always gonna be the best but I've been thinking about how Magic left the game at age 32 with 5 rings....if he didn't get HIV and leave the game would Jordan still have 6 rings......I feel as though had Magic not gotton HIV he would have won at least 1 more ring....

Ring or no ring, greatest or not, he's the most exciting player to ever play the game. And unlike Jordan he was about facilitating as well as dominating.

I also think it's laughable that Kobe gets referred to as the greatest Laker of all time when it's clearly Magic. Thing is, Magic is so dignified he doesn't even argue the point. I think he knows that his record of accomplishment (especially in a shortened career) and his unbelievable playing days speak for themselves. No one today really comes close to either Magic or Jordan.

ink
02-17-2012, 01:23 PM
I don't know how many people here are old enough to remember, but there was a time when this debate dominated nba sports talk. Who is better magic or mj? At the time larry bird said it was magic because of the championships. He said if he was picking a team he'd pick magic first then Micheal second. Of course that was before MJ won 6 titles three-peating twice.

I think both are great players and I'm glad I got to watch both of them play during their eras. One thing about MJ though, I seem to remember him playing the point guard role due to a team injury during a stretch and he recorded 10 triple doubles in 11 games. The game he didn't get it he had 40 points, 11 assists and 7 rebounds. 3 boards away from breaking the record for consecutive triple double games (according to Wikipedia). At least when he had to play the same role Magic did for his career, mj was quite good at it.

Interesting. I'd still agree with Larry Bird on this one though.

raiderfaninTX
02-17-2012, 01:42 PM
Jordan is the only player in the top 20 all time that is undefeated in series with HCA.


HCA(50+)/non-50
Jordan: 14-0 / 10-0
Magic: 9-2 / 20-1


Jordan's teams had HCA in 24 playoff series throughout his career, and they were 24-0 in all of them. Thats not an achievement? His teams were the favorites 24 times, and never once did they get upset.
You can't say that for pretty much any other superstar that has played in that many series.

Does that make him the automatic GOAT?
No, of course not cause there are other things to take into consideration, but IMO it definitely makes his case stronger.


Magic played with a guy that is ranked ahead of him all time in Kareem. How is that going to propel you to be the best when your teammate by most is considered greater?



Playoff Series Record with HCA against teams with a +2 SRS:

W-L PCT
1) MJ 15-0 100.0%
Magic 15-2 88.2%





Playoff Series Record with HCA against teams with a +4 SRS:

W-L PCT
1) MJ 11-0 100.0%
Magic 6-1 85.7%


Magic was great, but IMO how can you be considered the best of all time if you were not great on both ends? This is a big reason why MJ, Kareem and Wilt are the 3 most talked about for GOAT. Because while Russell has the titles and the defense, he wasn't great on offense. Magic has the offense and playmaking ability but he wasn't great on defense.

As for why Jordan is usually the majority pick for GOAT over those two in particular, there are a couple of reasons:


- Statistical dominance. Though Magic and Bird both put up otherworldly numbers, Jordan's production-- and not just in terms of scoring-- was stratospheric for a non-center. Jordan's average EFF (a cumulative stat that takes into account all the statistical categories and measures overall statistical impact) upon his retirement in 1993 was an astonishing 32.9. And that's an 8 season average. By comparison, Magic only topped 32.9 on one occasion, and even then just barely (33.3 EFF in '88-'89). Bird topped 32.9 on a few occasions (with EFF's of 34.3, 34.4, and 34.0), but his average EFF from 1980-1990 (not counting his last two seasons due to injuries) was "only" 30.4. Jordan's single season high in EFF was 37.0, and he topped 34 two other times as well (34.6 and 35.1). And Jordan led in PER 7x, while Bird and Magic did so only once and MJ has the highest PER ever recorded at 27.91 with Shaq being 2nd.



- Achievements, such as MVP's, Finals MVP's, DPOY award, and first-team and defensive first-team selections. Jordan had 5 MVP's to Magic and Bird's 3 apiece; he had 6 Finals MVP's to Magic's 3 and Bird's 2. He had a DPOY award that Magic and Bird could never hope to get. He had 10 all-NBA first-team selections to Magic's 9 and Bird's 9. Yes, Magic would have had more had he not retired and Bird would've had more if not for injuries, but Jordan would have also had 2 more had he not retired in '93, and likely a third had he not broken his foot in '86, so it's no use playing the "what if" game. Jordan also had 9 defensive first-team selections to Magic's none and Bird's 3 defensive second-team selections.


- Championships. Simply put, Jordan (6) has more than either Bird (3) or Magic (5). Yes, Bird and Magic had to beat each other for rings, which precluded either of them from getting more, but they each also had tons more help than Jordan did. Regardless, arguments about league strength aside, Jordan just has more, and his period of dominance was longer than Magic or Bird's. Also, this is only one aspect of the overall picture, so even if you feel that MJ's 6 rings don't hold as much weight as Magic's 5 (though I personally feel that the strength of Magic's supporting cast relative to Jordan's is enough to counterbalance the supposedly "weaker era" and make them relatively equal accomplishments)-- but if you disagree, then just realize that this is only one aspect of a larger picture.


- Overall skill. All three were among the top 5 or 6 most skilled players of all-time imo, and each had advantages over the others in various areas. Bird was the best rebounder of the bunch, Magic the best passer, Jordan the best scorer and defender. However, in their respective primes, the edges that Bird and Magic had on Jordan in these categories is not as large as the edge that Jordan had on Magic and Bird in his pet categories. For example, in his prime, Bird was capable of getting 13-17 rebounds on any given night, while in his prime, Jordan was capable of grabbing 11-14 rebounds on any given night. Magic in his prime could dish out 13-17 assists on any given night, whereas Jordan in his prime could dish out 10-14 assists on any given night. However, scoring-wise, Jordan was good for 45-55 on any given night while Bird was good for about 35-40 or so on any given night, and Magic "only" about 30-35.

Also defensively, Jordan was capable of disrupting entire teams' offenses in a way that neither Magic nor Bird were ever remotely capable of; he was also capable of playing lock-down defense, which neither of them really could, and he did so fairly consistently. I have a game vs. Boston on DVD from '88 where Jordan has 8 steals at the half, and Boston literally could not run the plays they wanted to because of Jordan's presence on the court. Bird looked exasperated. He could almost singlehandedly take opposing big men out of the game with his help defense from up top and the weak side. At any rate, the gap in defense between Jordan and Magic/Bird is much more significant than Bird's edge in rebounding and Magic's edge in passing in their respective primes imo. At the very least, these 3 are a wash skill-wise.


- Clutch play and dominance. Magic was clutch, to be certain, even if his clutchness often manifested itself in different ways than MJ's clutchness usually did. Bird was, obviously, a top 3 clutch player all-time (along w/Jordan and West imo), so he's in that conversation. Still, Jordan is generally considered to be the most clutch of the three, though it's not a huge advantage by any means. While all three were capable of beating you with the shot, rebound, or pass (some better than others in each category, but all capable), Jordan was a clutch defender as well, and could come up with the key block or steal or denial of a shot attempt by his man when it counted to a far greater degree than either Bird or Magic. Bird and Magic made up for their comparative lack of defensive ability with their canniness (e.g., Bird's steal vs. Detroit in the ECF), but it wasn't nearly on the same level as Jordan. Also, of the two, only Bird approaches Jordan's dominance over the league in terms of "who is the biggest bad guy? Who don't you want to piss off?" Bird was a bad, bad man. Jordan was badder, and he maintained that status for longer (through no fault of Bird's own; his injuries really robbed him of a few of his prime years).


You put all these things together and it's difficult to pick Magic or Bird over Jordan, for me at least. I have no problem admitting that all are on the same relative level, however-- If Bird's prime wasn't cut short, he would've went down as better than Magic imo, since his peak play ('84-'86) was better than Magic's peak play ('86-'89). Like Jerry West said of Jordan in 1993: "he's the best offensive player in the league, he's the best defensive player in the league, and he's the best competitor, playing on a team that, while suited to him, is not an ideal team. He carries that team; and very rarely do you see players carry teams to victories, much less championships. And if there's ever going to be a player who comes along that's better, I think we're all going to be sitting here scratching our heads."

not one rebuttal argument to this post, If your going to argue magic is the best you better bring your A game because not one post tops this.

raiderfaninTX
02-17-2012, 01:44 PM
Only players with 5+ Titles and multiple Finals MVP's

MJ = 6 titles, 6 Finals MVP's
Kareem = 6 Titles, 2 Finals MVP's
Magic = 5 Titles, 3 Finals MVP's
Kobe = 5 Titles, 2 Finals MVP's.


1. MJ (6 Titles, 5 League MVP's, 6 Finals MVP's, Career Leader in PPG Regular Season and Playoffs, and Most Points in Playoffs, etc)
2. Magic (5 Titles, 3 League MVP's, 3 Finals MVP's, # of APG titles)
3. Kareem (6 Titles, 6 League MVP's, 3 Finals MVP's, Career Points leader)
4. Russell (11 Titles, 5 League MVP's)
5. Wilt (2 Titles, 4 League MVP's, 1 Finals MVP)
Close
6. Bird (3 Titles, 3 League MVP's, 2 Finals MVP's)
7. Shaq (4 Titles, 1 League MVP's, 3 Finals MVP's)
8. Duncan (4 Titles, 2 League MVP's, 3 Finals MVP's)
9. Hakeem (2 Titles, 1 League MVP, 2 Finals MVP's)
10.Kobe (4 Titles, 1 League MVP, 1 Finals MVP)

So if we break it down, let's go by the following:

League MVP's
6 - Kareem Abdul-Jabbar
5 - Michael Jordan
5 - Bill Russell
4 - Wilt Chamberlain
3 - Larry Bird
3 - Magic Johnson
3 - Moses Malone

Finals MVP's
6 - Michael Jordan
3 - Magic Johnson
3 - Shaquille O'neal
3 - Tim Duncan
2 - Kareem
2 - Bird
2 - Kobe
1 - Wilt
1 - Moses Malone

Championships
11 - Bill Russell
6 - Michael Jordan
6 - Kareem
5 - Magic
5 - Kobe
4 - Shaq
4 - Duncan
2 - Wilt

Career Stats and Records - Regular Season
APG Leader: Magic
RPG Leader: Wilt
All-time Career Points Leader: Kareem
All-time PPG Leader: M.Jordan
Playoff Stats and Records - Playoffs
Total Assists Leader: Magic Johnson
APG Leader Playoffs: Magic Johnson
Total Rebounds Leader: Bill Russell
RPG Leader Playoffs: Bill Russell
All-time Career Points Leader Playoffs: M.Jordan
All-time PPG Leader Playoffs: M.Jordan
So currently the only players that fit the bill in each category are both MJ's.
Now if you add the fact of Defensive Teams that would eliminate Magic. However, I won't do that to him because he is my 2nd favorite player.
Now if you want you can add in the TSN MVP award as well


http://www.basketball-reference.com/awards/tsn_mvp.html
TSN MVP
7 - Michael Jordan
6 - Kareem
4 - Wilt
4 - Russell
2 - Moses
2 - Shaq
1 - Hakeem
1 - Magic

http://www.usatoday.com/sports/basketball/nba/2003-02-06-dupree-team_x.htm

So Kareem has the most league MVP's, MJ the most Finals MVP's, and Russell the most titles.
MJ is near the top in all of them though as is Russell, but Russell doesn't have the numbers to support him.
Also consider
Kareem won League MVP and Finals MVP in 1971
Magic won League MVP and Finals MVP in 1987
MJ won League MVP and Finals MVP in 1991, 1992, 1996 and 1998.
Bird won League MVP and Finals MVP in 1984 and 1986

Now all of that is looking at accolades, so how do we go even further in deciding who is the best as we can't just use titles alone. Well what did they did yearly and in the playoffs?

Highest PPG Average: 30.12
Most seasons leading league in Points: 11
Most scoring titles: 10
Highest PER Efficiency: 27.91
Also, MJ is no doubt the greatest playoff performer and IMO he was the greatest Road Player Ever. Most of his greatest feats happened on the road.
The Playoffs is where you make your name and where greatness is defined.

Playoffs

Most Points Per Game (min. 25 games)
33.4 by Michael Jordan (179 games)

Most Points in a Game
63 by Michael Jordan

Most 50 Point Games
8 by Michael Jordan

Most 40 Point Games
38 by Michael Jordan

Most 30 Point Games
109 by Michael Jordan

Most 20 Point Games
174 by Michael Jordan (he played 179 playoff games and scored under 20 only 5 times)
-Highest PER Efficiency Playoffs: 28.59


Most Career 40+ Point Games in Playoffs History

1. MJ = 38
2. West = 20
3. Baylor = 14
4. Wilt = 13
5. Shaq = 12
6. Hakeem = 11
Kobe = 11
Iverson = 10
9. Lebron = 9


Most Career 30+ Point Games in Playoffs History
MJ - 109
Kobe - 81
Kareem - 75
West -74
Baylor - 60



MJ:
NBA Regular-season records Michael Jordan holds:
-Most seasons leading league in scoring: 10
-Highest scoring average, career: 30.12ppg
-Most consecutive points, one game: 23
-Most seasons leading league in field goals made: 10
-Most consecutive gms in double figures in scoring:
866
-Most consecutive seasons leading PER: 7
-Highest career PER: 27.91
-Oldest player to score 40+ points: age 40 (43 pts)
-Oldest player to score 50+ points: age 38 (51 pts)
NBA Regular-season records Michael Jordan shares:
-Most consecutive seasons leading league in scoring:
7 (tied with Wilt Chamberlain)
-Most consecutive seasons, 2,000 plus points: 11 (Tied
with Malone)

NBA Playoff records Michael Jordan holds:
-Highest scoring average, career: 33.4ppg
-Record Total points: 5987
-Record Most FTS made: 1463
-Most points playoffs, one-game: 63
-Most points playoffs, three-game series: 135 (vs.
Miami, 1992)
-Most Points playoffs, five-game series: 226 (vs.
Cleveland, 1988)
-Most field goals made playoffs, three-game series:
53 (vs. Miami, 1992)
-Most field goals made playoffs, five-game series: 86
(vs. Philadelphia, 1990)
-Most field goals made playoffs, six-game series: 101
(vs. Phoenix, 1993)
-Most consecutive 50pt games: 2
-Most consecutive 45pt games: 3
-Most consecutive games, 20 plus points: 60
-Most free throws made, one quarter: 13
-Most free throws attempted, one quarter: 14
-Most 50 point games: 8
-Most 40 point games: 39
-Most consecutive points: 23
NBA Playoff records Michael Jordan shares:
-Most field goals, in a game: 24 (vs. Cleveland, May
1, 1988; tied with two others)
-Most three-point field goals made, one half: 6
(first half vs. Portland, June 3, 1992; tied with four
others)
NBA Finals records Michael Jordan holds:
- Highest Scoring average: 33.6
-Most points, six-game series: 246 (vs. Phoenix,
1993)
-Most field goals made, five-game series: 63 (vs.
L.A. Lakers, 1991)
-Most field goals made, six-game series: 101 (vs.
Phoenix, 1993)
-Most steals, five-game series: 14 (vs. L.A. Lakers,
1991)
-Highest scoring average, one series: 41.0 (vs.
Phoenix, 1993)
-Most consecutive games, 40-plus points: 4 (June 11,
1993 to June 18, 1993)
-Most consecutive 30 point games: 9
-Most consecutive games, 20-plus points: 29 (June 22,
1991 to June 1997)
-Most points, one-half: 35 (vs. Portland, June 3,
1992)
-Most consecutive field goals: 13 (Vs. LA)
-Most consecutive points: 23 (Vs. Seattle)
-Most Finals MVPs: 6



Conclusion: MJ still owns the most
scoring records as well as ALMOST ALL THE PLAYOFF
Records. Take a look at the all time scoring feats at
the bottom. MJ has 21 of them and the most important
ones, Wilt has 16, Kobe has 1.
Here's a list of ALL-TIME SCORING RECORDS.
- Highest career scoring average: MJ 30.12
- Highest career playoff scoring average: MJ 33.4
- Highest career Finals scoring average: MJ 33.6
- Highest single season scoring average: Wilt 50.4
- Highest single series playoff average: West 46.3
- Highest single Finals series average: MJ 41.0
- Most seasons leading league in scoring: MJ 10
- Most consecutive seasons leading in scoring: MJ,
Wilt tied at 7
- Most 50 point games: Wilt 118
- Most 50 point games playoffs: MJ 8
- Most 40 point games: Wilt 271
- Most 40 point games playoffs: MJ 42
- Most consecutive 60 point games: Wilt 4
- Most consecutive 50 point games: Wilt 7
- Most consecutive 50 point games in playoffs: MJ 2
- Most consecutive 45 point games: Wilt 7
- Most consecutive 45 point games playoffs: MJ 3
- Most consecutive 40 point games: Wilt 14
- Most consecutive 40 point games rookie: AI 5
- Most consecutive 40 point games playoffs: West 6
- Most consecutive 40 point games finals: MJ 4
- Most consecutive 35 point games: Wilt 33
- Most consecutive 30 point games: Wilt 65
- Most consecutive 30 point games playoffs: Elgin 11
- Most consecutive 30 point games finals: MJ 9
- Most consecutive 20 point games: Wilt 126
- Most consecutive 20 point games playoffs: MJ 60
- Most consecutive 20 point games finals: MJ 35
- Most consecutive double figures scoring: MJ 866
- Most consecutive points in one game: MJ 23
- Most consecutive points in one game playoffs: MJ 23
- Highest scoring game: Wilt 100
- Highest scoring game playoffs: MJ 63
- Highest scoring game finals: Elgin 61
- Highest scoring game rookie: Wilt 58
- Highest scoring all-star game: Wilt 42
- Highest scoring all-rookie game: Kobe 31
- Most points in 3 quarters: Wilt 69
- Most points in one half: Wilt 59
- Most points one half playoffs: Sleepy Floyd 39
- Most points in one half finals: MJ 35
- Most points one half all-star game: Rice 24
- Most points in one quarter: Gervin 33
- Most points in one quarter playoffs: Sleepy Floyd 29
- Most points in one quarter finals: Isiah 25
- Most points in one quarter all-star game: Rice 20
- Most points in OT: Arenas 16
- Most points in OT playoffs: Drexler 13
- Most points in OT in finals: Havlicek, Laimbeer,
Ainge tied at 9
- Oldest to score 50: MJ 51 at age 38
- Oldest to score 40: MJ 43 at age 40

http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/basketball/nba/2002/playoffs/top_individual_points/
Top Playoff Single-Game Scoring Performances
Player Team Opponent Total Date
Michael Jordan Chicago at Boston 63 April 20, 1986
Elgin Baylor L.A. Lakers at Boston 61 April 14, 1962
Wilt Chamberlain Philadelphia Syracuse 56 March 22, 1962
Michael Jordan Chicago at Miami 56 April 29, 1992
Charles Barkley Phoenix at Golden State 56 May 4, 1994
Michael Jordan Chicago Cleveland 55 May 1, 1988
Michael Jordan Chicago Phoenix 55 June 16, 1993
Michael Jordan Chicago Washington 55 April 27, 1997
John Havlicek Boston Atlanta 54 April 1, 1973
Michael Jordan Chicago New York 54 May 31, 1993
Allen Iverson Philadelphia Toronto 54 May 9, 2001
Wilt Chamberlain Philadelphia Syracuse 53 March 14, 1960
Jerry West L.A. Lakers Boston 53 April 23, 1969
Jerry West L.A. Lakers Baltimore 52 April 5, 1965
Allen Iverson Philadelphia Toronto 52 May 16, 2001
Sam Jones Boston at New York 51 March 28, 1967
Eric Floyd Golden State L.A. Lakers 51 May 10, 1987
Bob Cousy Boston Syracuse 50* March 21, 1953
Bob Petit St. Louis Boston 50 April 12, 1958
Wilt Chamberlain Philadelphia at Boston 50 March 22, 1950
Wilt Chamberlain San Francisco St. Louis 50 April 10, 1964
Billy Cunningham Philadelphia Milwaukee 50 April 1, 1970
Bob McAdoo Buffalo Washington 50 April 18, 1975
Dominique Wilkins Atlanta Detroit 50 April 19, 1986
Michael Jordan Chicago Cleveland 50 April 28, 1988
Michael Jordan Chicago Cleveland 50^ May 5, 1989
Karl Malone Utah Seattle 50 April 22, 2000
Vince Carter Toronto Philadelphia 50 May 11, 2001
*4 overtimes
^overtime


NBA PLAYOFFS HIGH SCORING GAME BY YEAR
1946-47 - 37 Joe Fulks, PHW vs CHI at PHW 16Apr47
1947-48 - 34 Connie Simmons, BLT vs NYK at BLT 27Mar48
1948-49 - 42 George Mikan, MPL vs WSC 4Apr49 @ MPL
1949-50 - 40 George Mikan, MPL vs SYR at MPL 23Apr50
1950-51 - 41 George Mikan, MPL vs IDS at MPL 21Mar51
1951-52 - 47 George Mikan, MPL at ROC 29Mar52
1952-53 - 50 Bob Cousy, BOS vs SYR at BOS 21Mar53
1953-54 - 36 Dolph Schayes, SYR at NYK 21Mar54
1954-55 - 32 Bill Sharman, BOS at SYR 24Mar55
1955-56 - 43 Neil Johnson, PHW at SYR 25Mar56
1956-57 - 42 Bob Leonard, MPL vs STL at MPL 25Mar57
1957-58 - 50 Bob Pettit, STL vs BOS at STL 12Apr58
1958-59 - 40 Cliff Hagan, STL vs MPL at STL 21Mar59
1959-60 - 53 Wilt Chamberlain, PHW vs SYR at PHW 14Mar60
1960-61 - 47 Elgin Baylor, LAL at DET 18Mar61
............... 47 Elgin Baylor, LAL at STL 27Mar61
1961-62 - 61 Elgin Baylor, LAL at BOS 14Apr62
1962-63 - 47 Sam Jones, BOS vs CIN at BOS 10Apr63
1963-64 - 50 Wilt Chamberlain, SFW vs STL at SFW 10Apr64
1964-65 - 52 Jerry West, LAL vs BAL at LAL 3Apr65
1965-66 - 46 Wilt Chamberlain, PHI vs BOS at PHI 12Apr66
1966-67 - 55 Rick Barry, SFW vs PHI at SFW 18Apr67
1967-68 - 46 Zelmo Beaty, STL vs SFW 23Mar68 @ STL
1968-69 - 53 Jerry West, LAL vs BOS at LAL 23Apr69
1969-70 - 50 Billy Cunningham, PHI vs MIL at PHI 1Apr70
1970-71 - 39 Gail Goodrich, LAL at CHI 28Mar71
1971-72 - 43 John Havlicek BOS at ATL 31Mar72
1972-73 - 54 John Havlicek, BOS vs ATL at BOS 1Apr73
1973-74 - 44 Bob McAdoo, BUF vs BOS 6Apr74 at BUF
............... 44 Kareem Abdul-Jabbar, MIL at CHI 18Apr74
1974-75 - 50 Bob McAdoo, BUF vs WAS at BUF 18Apr75
1975-76 - 45 Fred Brown, SEA vs PHO at SEA 15Apr76
1976-77 - 45 Kareem Abdul-Jabbar, LAL vs GSW at LAL 29Apr77
1977-78 - 46 George Gervin, SAN vs WAS at SAN 18Apr78
1978-79 - 42 George Gervin, SAN vs WAS at SAN 11May79
............... 42 George Gervin, SAN at WAS 18May79
1979-80 - 44 George Gervin, SAN vs HOU at SAN 4Apr80
1980-81 - 42 Calvin Murphy, HOU at SAN 17Apr81
............... 42 Moses Malone, HOU vs KCK at HOU 26Apr81
1981-82 - 39 George Gervin, SAN vs LAL at SAN 14May82
............... 39 Andrew Toney, PHI vs BOS at PHI 16May82
1982-83 - 42 Alex English, DEN vs PHO at PHO 24Apr83
............... 42 George Gervin, SAN at DEN 26Apr83
1983-84 - 46 Bernard King, NYK at DET 19Apr84
............... 46 Bernard King, NYK vs DET at NYK 22Apr84
1984-85 - 43 Rolando Blackman, DAL vs POR at DAL 18Apr85
............... 43 Larry Bird, BOS vs DET at BOS 8May85
1985-86 - 63 Michael Jordan, CHI at BOS 20Apr86
1986-87 - 51 Sleepy Floyd, GSW vs LAL at GSW 10May87
1987-88 - 55 Michael Jordan, CHI vs CLE at CHI 1May88
1988-89 - 50 Michael Jordan, CHI vs CLE at CHI 5May89
1989-90 - 49 Michael Jordan, CHI at PHI 11May90
1990-91 - 46 Michael Jordan, CHI at PHI 10May91
1991-92 - 56 Michael Jordan, CHI at MIA 29Apr92
1992-93 - 55 Michael Jordan, CHI vs PHO at CHI 16Jun93
1993-94 - 56 Charles Barkley, PHO at GSW 4May94
1994-95 - 48 Michael Jordan, CHI at CHA 28Apr95
1995-96 - 46 Michael Jordan, CHI at NYK 11May96
1996-97 - 55 Michael Jordan, CHI vs WAS at CHI 27Apr97
1997-98 - 45 Michael Jordan, CHI at UTA 14Jun98
1998-99 - 37 Tim Duncan, SAN at LAL 22May99
............... 37 Scottie Pippen, HOU vs LAL at HOU 13May99
............... 37 Shaquille O'Neal, LAL vs HOU at HOU 15May99
............... 37 Allen Iverson, PHI vs ORL at PHI 15May99
1999-00 - 50 Karl Malone, UTA vs SEA at UTA 22Apr00

-----

ALL-TIME HIGHEST SCORING AVERAGES, NBA PLAYOFFS
Jerry West, LAL vs BAL, 1965..... 46.3
Michael Jordan, CHI vs CLE, 1988..... 45.2
Michael Jordan, CHI vs MIA, 1992..... 45.0

ALL-TIME HIGHEST SCORING AVERAGES, NBA CHAMPIONSHIP SERIES/NBA FINALS
Michael Jordan, CHI vs PHO, 1993..... 41.0
Rick Barry, SFW vs PHI, 1965..... 40.8
Elgin Baylor, LAL vs BOS, 1962..... 40.6


Also MJ has 6 series in the playoffs over 40+ ppg.
And for people using the era difference, if that is the case why is Iverson 2nd all time in PPG in the PLAYOFFS and 3rd all time in PPG in the season?


http://www.nba.com/statistics/encyc/Player.jsp
PPG All Time (http://www.nba.com/statistics/default_all_time_leaders/AllTimeLeadersPPGQuery.html?topic=4&stat=0)

With respect to Kobe, he is my boy and all, but seriously he never has been as good as MJ was.
First off Kobe's best PER is as good as MJ's career average PER.
Next off is the following:
Also, Kobe in the finals. This is how they performed in the finals.
http://www.usatoday.com/sports/columnist/zillgitt/2004-06-15-zillgitt_x.htm
http://www.usatoday.com/sports/columnist/zillgitt/2004-06-15-zillgitt_x.htm
In 35 Finals games, Jordan averaged 33.6 points, 6.0 rebounds and 6.0 assists a game on 48% FG
In 37 Finals games, Bryant has averaged 25.3 points, 5.7 rebounds and 5.1 assists a game on 41% FG

Also MJ has 5 finals in the top 15 all time with all 6 in the top 26 and Kobe has 0 finals performances in the top 50 and has a all time top 10 worst finals performance.
http://proxy.espn.go.com/nba/playoffs2008/columns/story?columnist=hollinger_john&page=FinalsPerformances-2



http://www.usatoday.com/sports/columnist/zillgitt/2004-06-15-zillgitt_x.htm
Here were the requirements
NBA ALL-TIME LEADERS:
(All statistical records + playoff records + career averages + playoff averages + MVPs + Finals MVPs + Rings + All-1st teams + All-1st Defensive Teams + All-star games + All-star MVPS)
This is how it broke down each category:
http://www.usatoday.com/sports/basketball/nba/2003-02-06-dupree-team_x.htm

This is how it broke down each category:
NBA MVP awards won (five points each)
NBA championships won (five points each)
All-Star Games selected to play in (one point each)
All-NBA first-team selections (two points each)
All-defensive first team (one point each)
NBA Finals MVP awards (two points each)
All-Star MVP awards (one point each)
Individual statistical titles (two points each) — restricted to points, rebounds, assists, field goal percentage and free throw percentage, the stats the league has used the longest
Career averages (six points each) — if a player is the NBA career leader in scoring average, rebounds, assists, field goal percentage or free throw percentage
Career playoff averages (five points each) — for each category the player leads

That was the criteria used
1st Place: MJ, 149 total points
2nd Place: Wilt, 124 total points
3rd Place: Bill, 118 total points
4th Place: Jabbar, 114 total points
5th Place: Magic, 102 total points

Now adding up the current players you get (Active Players):
1st Place: Shaq, 87 total points
2nd Place: KB, 77 total points
3rd Place: Tim, 75 total points


All of these players below lost with either Homecourt Advantage, Top seed, Better Record or Same RecordIf year is mentioned then it means they lost with HCA. Otherwise top seed or identical record is mentioned



Also consider the following:
Is 18% a good percentage?
In what you might ask... 18% winning percentage...
Pretty awful right?
Well in 60 years of NBA Basketball only 11 league leading scorers have won a championship... That's 18.333333%...
Their names are: Shaquille O'Neal, Michael Jordan, Kareem Abdul Jabbar, George Mikan and some guy named Joe Fulks...
Most of these players were dominant Centers, who did more than just score.
That means that non center players who led the league in scoring have won in an amazing 10% of the time.. and only one player did it... Michael Jordan. In one era. That phenomenon of nature who won six...
10% winning historically!!! 10 PERCENT!!!
I will argue that the odds are against a high scoring guard from winning it all.
Would you?
I will argue that who ever is the only one to do that should be considered a truly great.. would you?
I will say that the way to go is to build a team in which you get many other good options to score, a balanced attack?

http://www.basketball-reference.com/about/glossary.html


MJ has led in Offensive Win Shares 8x, and was 2nd 3x.



1.) Offensive Win Shares

1984-85 NBA 10.3 (2)
1986-87 NBA 11.9 (2)
1987-88 NBA 15.2 (1)
1988-89 NBA 14.6 (1)
1989-90 NBA 14.7 (1)
1990-91 NBA 14.9 (1)
1991-92 NBA 12.1 (1)
1992-93 NBA 12.0 (1)
1995-96 NBA 14.2 (1)
1996-97 NBA 13.3 (1)
1997-98 NBA 10.4 (2)


2.) MJ has led in Win Shares 9x, and was 2nd 2x



Win Shares
1984-85 NBA 14.0 (2)
1986-87 NBA 16.9 (1)
1987-88 NBA 21.2 (1)
1988-89 NBA 19.8 (1)
1989-90 NBA 19.0 (1)
1990-91 NBA 20.3 (1)
1991-92 NBA 17.7 (1)
1992-93 NBA 17.2 (1)
1995-96 NBA 20.4 (1)
1996-97 NBA 18.3 (1)
1997-98 NBA 15.8 (2)


3.)

Win Shares Per 48 Minutes

1984-85 NBA 0.213 (3)
1986-87 NBA 0.247 (2)
1987-88 NBA 0.308 (1)
1988-89 NBA 0.292 (1)
1989-90 NBA 0.285 (1)
1990-91 NBA 0.321 (1)
1991-92 NBA 0.274 (1)
1992-93 NBA 0.270 (1)
1995-96 NBA 0.317 (1)
1996-97 NBA 0.283 (1)
1997-98 NBA 0.238 (3)
Career NBA 0.251 (1)
Career 0.251 (1)


Also for the playoffs MJ leads in:
Also Jordan has led in PER 7x, Win Shares 8x, OWS 8x, WSAA 8x in the season.
-Highest PER Efficiency Playoffs: 28.59
-Most Offensive Win Shares Playoffs - 27.32
-Most Win Shares Playoffs - 39.76

Also MJ has led in PER 6x in the playoffs, OWS 6x and Win Shares 7x in the playoffs.
Kobe has yet to lead in any of them in any given season


In my mind MJ is the GOAT, and I provided ample evidence of why I feel that way, but it is really close as guys like Kareem, Russell, Wilt, Magic and Bird on right their in the discussion, but when you consider how good MJ was on both ends of the court and how efficient he was as a player and the fact that he was a guard that in itself helps his case much more.
Also let's not forget MJ is currently the only player to average 30+ ppg for a career in the playoffs and he is the only one to do so in the season, playoffs and finals and he has the highest average in each of them and his has the most playoff points ever.

Here was a clip in 1993 where even Jerry West mentioned MJ was the best
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m1mFE_ekV7E&mode=related&search=

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZquLVr3MeGk&feature=related
@ the 1:30 mark, Dick Stockton refers to Jerry West mentioning that MJ was the greatest ever period.

Pat Riley mentions that Jordan will always be considered the best
http://youtube.com/watch?v=0565oawy9Ak

7:55 mark Isiah Thomas debates on why MJ was the best over Wilt
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nP-Rm2atzU0


4:59 mark --> Magic Johnson calls Michael Jordan the "best ever" in 1993
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N6og_pOVi2w&feature=related


http://www.usatoday.com/sports/basketball/nba/2003-02-06-dupree-team_x.htm

I am waiting for someone to top these two post with magic stats.

Please any laker fan provide some evidence to convince us of this, instead of half *** backed opinions which people are spewing on here.

Dramedy
02-17-2012, 01:56 PM
I know Jordan had Scottie and Phil, but man, if you flanked him with Kareem, Worthy, Cooper, Scott, McAdoo etc... with Pat Riley as the coach you could make the argument that he'd have 10 rings. Hell if Jordan comes along 5 years earlier and got to grow up in the era of stupid trades of first round picks (Magic got Worthy out of that, Bird got McHale, Parish and technically Len Bias out of it) he probably dominates the 80's on the same level he did the 90's and we don't look at Bird and Magic the same way. If Michael Jordan doesn't exist we look at at all the ringless stars of the 90's (Barkley, Malone, Ewing, Drexler, Stockton etc...) completely differently. There's a reason every major star we talk about for not having a ring played in the 90's. The players weren't inherently worse, the best player was just so much better than all of them so none of them could beat him. Don't over think it here, Michael Jordan is the best player of all time.

Pierzynski4Prez
02-17-2012, 02:01 PM
I am waiting for someone to top these two post with magic stats.

Please any laker fan provide some evidence to convince us of this, instead of half *** backed opinions which people are spewing on here.

You won't get anything except for "pssh, whatever Magic was better." I don't need facts to back it up like you did.

Pierzynski4Prez
02-17-2012, 02:26 PM
What I am telling you is Jordan's butt kissers are all over the place, losing credibility every debate.. When someone points out that Magic won 5 championships and played in 9 in his 12 years (in the 80s best teams EVER!) you guys say he had great teammates. Although Kareem was 40 and 41 yrs old and couldnt jump any more for 2 of the championships. But when you talk abt Jordan 6 championships you never mention Pippen HOF, Rodman HOF, Kerr best 3 point shooter, H Grant great player, Phil Jackson best coach.. All the credit goes to Jordan when he wins. Magic, Bird and Isiah whipped Jordan from 84-90 but yal never admit that, its like you want to brain wash people into believing Jordan was drafted in 1991 lol crazy.. But you same Jordan apologist have the audacity to say Kobe isnt as good as Jordan because he didnt win with smush and kwame brown..And even when Kobe wins you guys say its because of Shaq and Pau LMAO!! Sooo unfair. No one wins Championships alone and that includes Jordan. Jordan started winning when Magic got hiv, Bird hurt his back and had to retire, and all those GREAT 80s team got old. But even after all of that Jordan ranks 2nd right now behind Magic and Kobe is on his @$$

So you say it was the best teams ever, but then move on to try to downplay the effect Kareem and the others had. Kareem was the best player on the team during Magic's 1st (31 and 12) and arguably the best in 82 for their 2nd title. And Kareem was 32-34 at that point. Not 41

And I like how you forget to mention Worthy, Cooper, Scott, Thompson off the bench, but you'll mention steve kerr and horace grant. Yes, those were great Laker teams (cough didn't win 72 games though cough). They were deep and very well balanced teams. They also lost 4 finals, and were a 1st round exit the year after winning the 1st of magic's titles.

Also Jordan won 3 titles without Rodman, Pippen was only in his 4th season at the start of the 1st 3-peat. And prior to Jordan, who was Phil Jackson???

Sure Magic and Isiah whooped Jordan in the 80s. We can admit that because its a fact. Another fact is that Jordan was a rookie in 84 and missed just about all the season in 85. He wasn't even near his prime then. Not to mention most people couldn't name a single player on the bulls until Pippen came started to evolve into a good player in 89.

Look at Jordan's playoff stats, and you'll find why he gets just about all the credit for winning 6 titles. Only his rookie season did he not average 30 ppg (a miserable 29.3 ppg there). He averaged 33/6/6 for nearly 200 playoff games. Magic did average 19/12/8 which is no doubt insanely impressive, but I'm taking Jordan 10 times out of 10 if I had to choose 1. Just my opinion, but it seems just about everyone in the world outside of a few homer Laker fans would agree. JB's favorite stat, win shares which you've have to read, otherwise you just completely ignore his posts which shows your ignorance in this debate, Jordan was worth 8 more wins in 11 less games played in the playoffs. PER, Jordan's 28.6 to Magic's 22.9. The gap between Jordan and Magic in playoff PER is the same gap between Magic and Rod Strickland.

Toss in the fact that I just now on Sportscenter watched Magic state "You know Jordan was the world's greatest. Why do I have to talk about this?" Exact quote. Let me know when you find someone other than Hellcrooner state that magic was the greatest.


The statement that was made was about their respective teammates, and how Jordan gets a pass for being on bad-to-mediocre teams because he allegedly didn't have any help, but the same people don't extend the same courtesy to Bryant when he had a crappy team.

What does it matter what season they were in their career?

It kind of does. MJ's worst teams (ones that compare to Kobe's worst record wise) were doing his rookie year, his 2nd year where he missed 64 games, and his 3rd year. I don't think there should have been much expectations, which is probably why he gets a "pass" for it. Kobe's seasons (His 9th-11th) in which he finished with the records I quoted where while he was well into his prime with 3 titles already on his belt.

It's quite a difference, but this discussion isn't about Kobe vs. MJ, so this argument is pointless.

RLundi
02-17-2012, 02:33 PM
Dwight Howard, Penny Hardaway and Shaq, in that order.

Oh wait, is that not what this thread is about?

carter80
02-17-2012, 06:49 PM
Jordan is called the greatest because jordan is the greatest.

MickeyMgl
02-18-2012, 05:11 AM
I am waiting for someone to top these two post with magic stats.

There is more to life than reading - let alone responding to - rants that long.

MickeyMgl
02-18-2012, 05:15 AM
I know Jordan had Scottie and Phil, but man, if you flanked him with Kareem, Worthy, Cooper, Scott, McAdoo etc... with Pat Riley as the coach you could make the argument that he'd have 10 rings.

In the 90s maybe. Not in the 80s.

Raps18-19 Champ
02-18-2012, 05:16 AM
I consider Magic the Goat.

Because thats how things should be, people should be free to chose who they think the goat is ( among worhty candidates, ok? no Jeremy Lins thanks) instead of having to put up with one being forced into our throats by media, shoe companys, mcdonalds, espn, gatorade and so on and on and on fro 30 years now.

Jordan is ONE of the heaviest candidates with Magic, Wilt, RObertson, Kareem, Bird, Kobe, Bird, Hakeem

But shouldnt be considered Hands down/ no questions made / blah blah blah goat, no one ever should be considered that.


And that not taking on account that is stupid to compare players on different positions.

Sounds to me you just want to feel different and go against what the majority says.

Raps18-19 Champ
02-18-2012, 05:20 AM
any1 who think magic better than kobe or air jordan on some serius dank

Can you make a case as to why Magic is better than Kobe?

ghettosean
02-18-2012, 05:53 AM
Tell me, how many titles did Magic win without Kareem (a GOAT candidate himself)? Tell me, how many did Magic lead the Lakers in scoring during those playoff series? Tell me, how many all-defensive teams Magic was on?

Hint: The answers are all the same.

Magic had more help than MJ ever had, and still couldn't win as many titles. The Lakers scoring was carried to a huge extent by players like Kareem, Worthy, and even Scott-Mac-Wilkes (which is why Magic doesn't have as many Finals MVPs as he has championship rings). Magic was the most questionable defensive player of any top 10 player.

Those 3 facts alone are all I need to slide him below MJ.
This

bringinwood
02-18-2012, 07:54 AM
Here was the topic we had in the summer and you see Magic finished 4th.

http://www.prosportsdaily.com/forums/showthread.php?t=635088

After the 1991 season the Lakers weren't going to win anymore titles whether Magic was there or not unless they ended up getting a Drob or something which wasn't going to happen either.


That list was about as ****ing horrible as it gets..... Down syndrome babies voting out of LA... All 98 trillion of them... :laugh:

Kareem isn't 2 and Magic isn't 4...

You might as well ask the fuking birds in the park, they might have a better idea....

Super.
02-18-2012, 07:56 AM
I consider Magic the Goat.

Because thats how things should be, people should be free to chose who they think the goat is ( among worhty candidates, ok? no Jeremy Lins thanks) instead of having to put up with one being forced into our throats by media, shoe companys, mcdonalds, espn, gatorade and so on and on and on fro 30 years now.

Jordan is ONE of the heaviest candidates with Magic, Wilt, RObertson, Kareem, Bird, Kobe, Bird, Hakeem

But shouldnt be considered Hands down/ no questions made / blah blah blah goat, no one ever should be considered that.


And that not taking on account that is stupid to compare players on different positions.

Of course you do. Your a Laker fan. That'd be Jamal Nivar calling Bird the GOAT.

But they aren't.

Jordan is

Super.
02-18-2012, 07:56 AM
magic ant better than kobe.

kobe and air jordan 1 and 2

Kobe isn't #2, oh god that's laughable to think so

bringinwood
02-18-2012, 08:03 AM
Kobe isn't #2, oh god that's laughable to think so

Wilt is the best center to ever play in the NBA...

He redefined an entire generation of basketball...

He defined the center position...

I can't call him 2, it's more like 1A...

There is a significant drop from 1 and 1A to 2 and so forth...

Jordan is 1st and Wilt is 2nd...


You can fight about the rest... I really will only contest the second spot since life is short...


You can contend Magic as a top 10ish type player...

I think it's a serious stretch to try and put him top 7 with the talent he played with...

Same thing for Kobe...

Kobe had more help than any other player in the history of basketball and still doesn't have 6 rings...


On the other hand, Jordan extracted more from his rosters than any other player in history and came away with 6 rings where almost any other player would have walked away with none...

MickeyMgl
02-18-2012, 06:30 PM
You can contend Magic as a top 10ish type player...


:)
Oh yeah... You're like 12 or something, right?

I'm giving you the benefit of the doubt, because Magic "top 10ish" is truly ignorant.

Nica
02-19-2012, 11:42 AM
Magic was so versatile ie. Playing the middle in a huge play off game- and he truly was one of a kind. But he certainly wasn't the GOAT. Not to burst anyone's revisionist memories of Magic but if he didn't have rotational help or another GOAT candidate in Kareem clogging up the lane then his D would have put him solidly in the Steve Nash "I am lost " defensive category. He had long arms, he would jump a passing lane and he could grab a board or a loose ball but he did not stay in front off anyone. And that is the cold hard truth about Magic in his own end. And I say that as a huge Magic Showtime fan.

Any GOAT discussion begins and ends with Jordan. Everyone else including Wilt Magic Bird Kobe or Le Bron are merely Princes to the man himself - the one and only GOAT- Michael Jordan.

MickeyMgl
02-19-2012, 06:11 PM
Not to burst anyone's revisionist memories of Magic but if he didn't have rotational help or another GOAT candidate in Kareem clogging up the lane then his D would have put him solidly in the Steve Nash "I am lost " defensive category. He had long arms, he would jump a passing lane and he could grab a board or a loose ball but he did not stay in front off anyone.

The revisionism comes from guys like Barkley and fans just repeating "Magic didn't play defense" until the truth was forgotten. You don't lead the league in steals twice by playing "I am lost" defense. "I am lost" defense doesn't put you among the league leaders in Defensive Rating and Defensive Win Shares a couple of seasons. He always knew where the ball was, and was an excellent help defender. Early on, he could even stay with little guards, but knee trouble slowed him down. Also, his versatility as a defender should not be underestimated.

Comparing his defense to Nash is really ridiculous.

Nica
02-19-2012, 11:26 PM
The revisionism comes from guys like Barkley and fans just repeating "Magic didn't play defense" until the truth was forgotten. You don't lead the league in steals twice by playing "I am lost" defense. "I am lost" defense doesn't put you among the league leaders in Defensive Rating and Defensive Win Shares a couple of seasons. He always knew where the ball was, and was an excellent help defender. Early on, he could even stay with little guards, but knee trouble slowed him down. Also, his versatility as a defender should not be underestimated.

Comparing his defense to Nash is really ridiculous.

Hence the mention of long arms and poaching the passing lanes. And a current comparison to another Hall of Famer whose skill set on offense changed the way the game was played yet was maligned for porous man defense seems pretty valid to me. Not sure if Michael Cooper or Kareem really needed Magics "help". Worthy perhaps- since he was likely already at mid court looking for an outlet.
When a point guard lacks foot speed or lateral movement they really get exposed in a man situation when they don't get any help. Magic immensely benefitted from both his unique wing span and the fact that he had Kareem camped in the key. And I mention this as someone how actually watched the Lakers in their glory days and not from googling a stat. As for the Sir Charles reference do you really think that anyone who knows basketball really let's his ramblings influence their opinions or first hand memories?

LakersEaglesLA
02-20-2012, 02:48 PM
So you say it was the best teams ever, but then move on to try to downplay the effect Kareem and the others had. Kareem was the best player on the team during Magic's 1st (31 and 12) and arguably the best in 82 for their 2nd title. And Kareem was 32-34 at that point. Not 41

And I like how you forget to mention Worthy, Cooper, Scott, Thompson off the bench, but you'll mention steve kerr and horace grant. Yes, those were great Laker teams (cough didn't win 72 games though cough). They were deep and very well balanced teams. They also lost 4 finals, and were a 1st round exit the year after winning the 1st of magic's titles.

Also Jordan won 3 titles without Rodman, Pippen was only in his 4th season at the start of the 1st 3-peat. And prior to Jordan, who was Phil Jackson???

Sure Magic and Isiah whooped Jordan in the 80s. We can admit that because its a fact. Another fact is that Jordan was a rookie in 84 and missed just about all the season in 85. He wasn't even near his prime then. Not to mention most people couldn't name a single player on the bulls until Pippen came started to evolve into a good player in 89.

Look at Jordan's playoff stats, and you'll find why he gets just about all the credit for winning 6 titles. Only his rookie season did he not average 30 ppg (a miserable 29.3 ppg there). He averaged 33/6/6 for nearly 200 playoff games. Magic did average 19/12/8 which is no doubt insanely impressive, but I'm taking Jordan 10 times out of 10 if I had to choose 1. Just my opinion, but it seems just about everyone in the world outside of a few homer Laker fans would agree. JB's favorite stat, win shares which you've have to read, otherwise you just completely ignore his posts which shows your ignorance in this debate, Jordan was worth 8 more wins in 11 less games played in the playoffs. PER, Jordan's 28.6 to Magic's 22.9. The gap between Jordan and Magic in playoff PER is the same gap between Magic and Rod Strickland.

Toss in the fact that I just now on Sportscenter watched Magic state "You know Jordan was the world's greatest. Why do I have to talk about this?" Exact quote. Let me know when you find someone other than Hellcrooner state that magic was the greatest.



It kind of does. MJ's worst teams (ones that compare to Kobe's worst record wise) were doing his rookie year, his 2nd year where he missed 64 games, and his 3rd year. I don't think there should have been much expectations, which is probably why he gets a "pass" for it. Kobe's seasons (His 9th-11th) in which he finished with the records I quoted where while he was well into his prime with 3 titles already on his belt.

It's quite a difference, but this discussion isn't about Kobe vs. MJ, so this argument is pointless.

First of all Magic would never say he is the greatest of all time, not because he dosent believe it, because he has too much class and humility.. I didnt need to mention Kareem, Worthy and Scott because Everyone does already, That was my point no one mentions Jordans teammates. What is PER stats? I dont base this off of stats alone. Ofcouse Magic didnt average more points than Jordan. Magic was a POINT GUARD!! I watched the 80s and 90s and dont need stats to justify who I think was the Greatest I have eyes. Kareem could win a title in LA for 4 yrs and soon as Magic arrived the titles arrived. Jordans was the best one on one individual player ever (yes). But Magic was the best team player. I would start my team with MAGIC.

JoyRide
02-20-2012, 03:08 PM
every one else can compete for the GOAT title except Jordan, Jordan is the God of basketball

LakersMaster24
02-20-2012, 03:08 PM
If Jordan didn't retire for a year during, he'd have 8 rings right now, so no...

Anyway you can prove that? Do you know how hard it is to keep energy for 8 straight Finals trips? Why do you think you havent seen anything more than 3 peats lately?

LakersMaster24
02-20-2012, 03:16 PM
By the way, Jesua Christ people stop posting novels that literally take 30 seconds to scroll down by.

JoyRide
02-20-2012, 03:21 PM
Anyway you can prove that? Do you know how hard it is to keep energy for 8 straight Finals trips? Why do you think you havent seen anything more than 3 peats lately?

yes i believe Jordan can , remembered the famous flu game? he beat the **** out of Malone and Stockton in playoff game even he was seriously ill, i'm sure he would have no problem at all for 8 straight finals trip

LakersMaster24
02-20-2012, 05:04 PM
yes i believe Jordan can , remembered the famous flu game? he beat the **** out of Malone and Stockton in playoff game even he was seriously ill, i'm sure he would have no problem at all for 8 straight finals trip

A flu is very different from the beating that your body takes during numerous trips to the Finals.

JoyRide
02-20-2012, 05:32 PM
A flu is very different from the beating that your body takes during numerous trips to the Finals.

this just showed you don't even know about it nor watched the game. it's not flu he was suffering that time, it's was food poisoning.media named it the flu game.
did you ever watched their games before?if not, i'm not sure you should think that you know about them just based on all the clips you found on internet.
i watched that game with my own eyes, i was a miracle, and it showed how tough Jordan is mentally and physically.

found this article which explained what happened back then.

http://sports.espn.go.com/espn/espn25/story?page=moments/79