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new_attraction
02-07-2012, 07:13 PM
Hey guys
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I’m not sure if someone else started a forum about this and I apologize if someone already did, but I wanted to see what you Jays fans think about the future of our starting back catcher.
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We all know that Travis D'arnaud is very close to being major league ready and should be getting the call to “The Show” in the near future, and we ALSO know that we already have a young all-star potential catcher in JP Arencibia.
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I would like to hear your guys opinion and if you’ve read anything about our future back catcher. Either move either player to a different position? (First base possibly?) or even trade one of these young studs sometime this year?

I'd love to hear your ideas and opinions

JaysFan87
02-07-2012, 07:25 PM
Hey guys
*
I’m not sure if someone else started a forum about this and I apologize if someone already did, but I wanted to see what you Jays fans think about the future of our starting back catcher.
*
We all know that Travis D'arnaud is very close to being major league ready and should be getting the call to “The Show” in the near future, and we ALSO know that we already have a young all-star potential catcher in JP Arencibia.
*
I would like to hear your guys opinion and if you’ve read anything about our future back catcher. Either move either player to a different position? (First base possibly?) or even trade one of these young studs sometime this year?

I'd love to hear your ideas and opinions

I was actually really looking forward to talking about the future front catcher.

bomber0104
02-07-2012, 07:37 PM
yeah the position is "catcher"..

and Its almost a sure thing that D'Arnaud will take over at C as soon as he is ready for the major leagues which should come sometime after the all-star break this year (probably September).. JPA will probably have to move positions or be traded

nithanyo
02-07-2012, 07:56 PM
Over the last 15 years or so we have had a few prospects destined to be the "catcher of the future" yet they have all fizzled. I know there's a lot of hype around d'arnaud but I still like arencibia while we trade d'arnaud for a starting pitcher.

2009mvp
02-07-2012, 08:06 PM
So freakin lazy comparing D'Arnaud to past Blue Jays prospects. Honestly, what the hell does one have to do with the other besides being in the same organization at one time? We're not talking about a teenager who's years away here either, he's 23 and raked in AA. Dude is arguably ready for the bigs NOW, and it isn't as if JPA's set the bar particularly high with his performance last year.

new_attraction
02-07-2012, 08:09 PM
Well I feel stupid! Lol catcher, back catcher, backstop, same thing lol

Farsight
02-07-2012, 08:10 PM
Arencibia has a lot of issues to work out. His bat probably will just be above average for a catcher. His lack of contact and ability to get on base are worrisome. Moreover, his only plus tool is his power, and that is above average. He is also one of the worst defensive catchers in baseball, so a lot of his offensive potential is negated. Arencibia has too many faults in his game in my opinion to be a great catcher. A fringe catcher sure?, but unless Arencibia transforms his game this year i dont see him as our catcher of the future

And please, dont talk about switching Arencibia to 1st or DH, because the only position that his bat would work at is catcher or SS, and we all know he cant field short stop

3mikee_
02-07-2012, 08:35 PM
I love JPA but I think D'arnaud will be much better. JPA strikes out way too much and although we all know he has the power, we really need him to figure out how to get on base and what not. If he doesn't I think the AA is going to try to shop him around after a hot streak or something ..

BJBirdy
02-07-2012, 08:42 PM
And please, dont talk about switching Arencibia to 1st or DH, because the only position that his bat would work at is catcher or SS, and we all know he cant field short stop

I don't really know what this is supposed to mean, but I wouldn't be opposed to moving Arencibia to 1B eventually. He played some 1B in college, and his defense isn't as good as d'Arnaud's, so I'm going to guess that Arencibia will be the one who is forced to change positions if/when d'Arnaud makes it to the big leagues.

To be honest, I wouldn't mind seeing the Jays testing out Arencibia in LF down the line.

JaysFan87
02-07-2012, 08:45 PM
I don't really know what this is supposed to mean, but I wouldn't be opposed to moving Arencibia to 1B eventually. He played some 1B in college, and his defense isn't as good as d'Arnaud's, so I'm going to guess that Arencibia will be the one who is forced to change positions if/when d'Arnaud makes it to the big leagues.

To be honest, I wouldn't mind seeing the Jays testing out Arencibia in LF down the line.

JPA's bat is below average anywhere but catcher.

2009mvp
02-07-2012, 08:53 PM
I'd actually be willing to bet on JPA hitting enough to be replacement level at first (ie Adam Lind). Unfortunately if this team is ever gonna make some headway in this division replacement level isn't even close to good enough.

scaramantula
02-07-2012, 09:12 PM
jpa's only played one year so far, people are judging him like hes a 10 year vet, travis hasn't even made the team yet. so i'll hold off juding whose better till there on the same team.

and it is catcher we kinda need two anyways, so why not keep both and when one is struggling play the other

StealingSigns
02-07-2012, 09:42 PM
Well I feel stupid! Lol catcher, back catcher, backstop, same thing lol

You are correct, not stupid. It is a dated term (and it was mainly used in Canada) but Back Catcher and Backstop are all names for Catcher.

Some funny comments from our American friends... (http://newsgroups.derkeiler.com/Archive/Alt/alt.sports.baseball.ny-yankees/2007-09/msg04790.html)

scaramantula
02-07-2012, 09:48 PM
technically every player on defense does catch the ball, so maybe back stop or back catcher is more correct. lol

Tmath
02-07-2012, 09:51 PM
I like JP as our future super utility player, playing C/DH/1B/PH. He could still get consistent playing time.

phillipmike
02-07-2012, 09:53 PM
D'Arnaud has all the skills and potential tools to be the better all-around catcher and player than JPA.

JPA had a very good year considering his production as a rookie. Though playing behind the plate is not playing to his strengths where D'Arnaud can bring a good bat with the addition of good receiving skills. With all that D'Arnaud still needs to PROVE that he is good enough to replace JPA. If (i think it will be when) he does then you have a potential GREAT problem on your hands.

You have two options; deal Arencibia or move him to another position (only option for him is to 1st). Both are legit options and gives the Jays a lot of flexibility, which essential.

The Jays are in a great position is D'Arnaud lives up to his potential and even more so if he can grow some handle-bars.

scaramantula
02-07-2012, 09:59 PM
I like JP as our future super utility player, playing C/DH/1B/PH. He could still get consistent playing time.

wouldnt really call 2 positions super utility but whatevs, i see him in pretty much the same way, unless travis is a bust.

Sanyo
02-07-2012, 10:44 PM
JP did admit he didnt focus on his bat as much because he was working on his catching -- look I'll go on a limb and say he has potential with the bat -- no he's not going to be winning the Triple Crown but if they know D'arnaud will be the better catcher (and arguably Jimenez a better defensive catcher) then I would try to get them to focus on his hitting approach more -- a guy with this much power should not be tossed in the back alley -- if he can get a little more disciplined at the plate and draw a few more walks then yeah I would throw him into the DH role...that's his future pretty much anywhere he goes so why waste his time behind the plate and get him in the batting cage!

TRIUMPHATOR
02-07-2012, 10:48 PM
The truth to this arguement lies somewhere in the near future. If TDA turns out to be an incredible hitter at the major league level, to the point that catching would be a hinderance to his offensive output, of course he would have to be moved to a position. That being the case I don't mind JPA behind the plate. What if he is mediocre with his bat and great defensively? Then I'll take the extra defence over JPA's bat.

JaysFan87
02-07-2012, 10:59 PM
technically every player on defense does catch the ball, so maybe back stop or back catcher is more correct. lol

No. It still is not the position. The position is called Catcher. You don't call a goalie a "back goalie." There is only one catcher on the fielder and only one goalie on the ice. Its not ground breaking but just, its one of my pet peeves. Just like adding an "s" to RBI. Its "runs batted in" NOT "Runs Batted Ins."

craigerlee
02-07-2012, 11:09 PM
No. It still is not the position. The position is called Catcher. You don't call a goalie a "back goalie." Their is only one catcher on the fielder and only one goalie on the ice. Its not ground breaking but just, its one of my pet peeves. Just like adding an "s" to RBI. Its "runs batted in" NOT "Runs Batted Ins."

For some reason growing up I vaguely remember people calling it the back catcher in school and little league. I think its a Canadian term.

Krylian
02-07-2012, 11:25 PM
BAT CATCHER

Still doesn't make any sense calling it a bat catcher...but it's accepted in the game. BACK CATCHER is not.

As for your question..............Uhmmmm.......What was it again....I got caught up with Back Catcher and didn't read any further. ;)



Edit: Ok.....I read your question...IMO, d'Arnaud will be the better pro. Ideally, I'd like to see if JPA can build on his rookie season and increase his trade value. Then move him at the end of 2012 or before 2013 starts. As for moving JPA to 1st, I don't think his bat plays there, so you'd be decreasing his value if you did that.

craigerlee
02-07-2012, 11:39 PM
BAT CATCHER

Still doesn't make any sense calling it a bat catcher...but it's accepted in the game. BACK CATCHER is not.

As for your question..............Uhmmmm.......What was it again....I got caught up with Back Catcher and didn't read any further. ;)



Edit: Ok.....I read your question...IMO, d'Arnaud will be the better pro. Ideally, I'd like to see if JPA can build on his rookie season and increase his trade value. Then move him at the end of 2012 or before 2013 starts. As for moving JPA to 1st, I don't think his bat plays there, so you'd be decreasing his value if you did that.

I'm pretty sure its the opposite. I think its called a back catcher cause he's to the back of the plate.

JermanJaysFan
02-08-2012, 12:11 AM
Guys, chill on the "back catcher" thing. It's not generally used, but in some parts of Canada it certainly is a common term. Just take 2 seconds to google some combination of "baseball","canada","back catcher" and you'll be wiser for it.
---
As for the D'Arnaud/JPA thing- barring a major offensive improvement by JPA, he has the most value for us either as our catcher or traded somewhere else to fill a position of need. Seeing as I think it is quite likely that D'Arnaud will be playing JPA out of his job before long, JPA probably needs to be dealt. Now, if JPA turns it up a notch and hits like Mike Napoli did this year...then maybe you can see about getting creative with finding him ABs at 1B or DH. But regardless, he will never have more value than he does manning the C spot on a fulltime basis. But the most likely outcome of this "positional battle" is that one of JPA or D'Arnaud ends up in another uniform, and (hopefully?) it is JPA.

Sanyo
02-08-2012, 12:26 AM
Canadians should call catchers a "goalie" -- hey they do block balls sometimes, its a requirement...

StealingSigns
02-08-2012, 12:33 AM
The reason it is called "Back Catcher" is because the player has their back to the "Back Stop" i.e. the fence behind home plate.

The position was sometimes referred to as "Back Stopper". Again these terms are pretty old. Moving on...

2009mvp
02-08-2012, 12:49 AM
Even if D'Arnaud is a bust I'd argue you sell JPA as soon as possible if someone's willing to overpay for his power/youth. I mean, if .260/.300/.450 or thereabouts with below average to terrible defense is his ceiling I'd rather whatever he can net the team in a trade + a free agent catcher over simply keeping him. Of course that's only if you believe there isn't all that much room for improvement in his bat, which I know isn't the consensus opinion.

Sanyo
02-08-2012, 12:55 AM
Im sure there's a team out there that would look at JP's power numbers and give him a shot -- if you can get a decent middle infielder (2b or ss) or a pitcher, why not...but I would like D'Arnaud to be up here and get some experience-- he's not instantly going to be a middle of the order, .300 hitting defensive backstop guru -- so you may need JP longer than you think...

town123
02-08-2012, 09:38 AM
You are correct, not stupid. It is a dated term (and it was mainly used in Canada) but Back Catcher and Backstop are all names for Catcher.

Some funny comments from our American friends... (http://newsgroups.derkeiler.com/Archive/Alt/alt.sports.baseball.ny-yankees/2007-09/msg04790.html)

I believe it's Bat Catcher. The only people I knew growing up that said Back Catcher instead of Bat Catcher had little knowledge of baseball. You either played Hardball, Softball or Fastball.

StealingSigns
02-08-2012, 09:59 AM
I believe it's Bat Catcher. The only people I knew growing up that said Back Catcher instead of Bat Catcher had little knowledge of baseball. You either played Hardball, Softball or Fastball.

Nah, it's Back Catcher eh

http://answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid=20090108220035AA5ZS9q

http://wiki.answers.com/Q/Is_it_called_a_catcher_or_back_catcher

town123
02-08-2012, 10:01 AM
Nah, it's Back Catcher eh

http://answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid=20090108220035AA5ZS9q

http://wiki.answers.com/Q/Is_it_called_a_catcher_or_back_catcher

Look at who is answering in wiki and yahoo. I grew up in the era.... trust me.

JermanJaysFan
02-08-2012, 10:12 AM
Look at who is answering in wiki and yahoo. I grew up in the era.... trust me.
So did I. Back catcher.

town123
02-08-2012, 10:50 AM
So did I. Back catcher.

What backwater did you grow up in? lol

Krylian
02-08-2012, 11:57 AM
Nah, it's Back Catcher eh

http://answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid=20090108220035AA5ZS9q

http://wiki.answers.com/Q/Is_it_called_a_catcher_or_back_catcher

Huh. Well I stand corrected. Always thought it was bat catcher.....although back catcher does make more sense. I just go with catcher...simpler and doesn't sound dumb like bat catcher or back catcher does.

JermanJaysFan
02-08-2012, 12:15 PM
What backwater did you grow up in? lol
GTA.

It's kind of ignorant of you to assume that the majority of people on this forum and everyone commenting on the subject online is wrong, and you and your childhood friends are right. Say "back catcher" out loud. It sounds like "bat catcher". It would have been easy for a younger version of yourself to confuse.

StealingSigns
02-08-2012, 12:32 PM
GTA.

It's kind of ignorant of you to assume that the majority of people on this forum and everyone commenting on the subject online is wrong, and you and your childhood friends are right. Say "back catcher" out loud. It sounds like "bat catcher". It would have been easy for a younger version of yourself to confuse.

When I was a kid, I thought it was Bat Catcher. I always thought it was odd: you don't actually go around catching bats. It's bad enough catching the ball at those speeds, let alone having to worry about catching the bats as well :D

It wasn't until I started playing in an organized league that I saw it written down as Back Catcher.

Ace Drivers
02-08-2012, 12:41 PM
JP will be better at the plate this year...at every stage of his career thus far he has improved from one year to next when he jumps to the next level. There is absolutely nothing to suggest he won't improve. D'Ar will be good I'm sure but he still hasn't played a game in the bigs...

Not too mention 3 of of our top 20 prospects are catchers...and of the three, pundits agree that the other two are better defensively than either JPA or D'Ar...

And from my standpoint I still cannot understand why people think JPA is terrible defensively? He was a rookie, catching for a very young squad that was sometimes wild. And our pitchers as a group are very easy to run on...which means people will run a lot on us. For example if you compare Martin and JPA, teams ran against us 25 more times...which is pretty significant. JPA's fielding percentage is better, and he had 4 less errors...

And please don't try and tell me that his WAR is awful...major flaw in that system...aside from too many distinct variables being sandwiched together, WAR = wins above replacement...in my mind that translates to is the team better with him in the line-up or with his replacement...I'm pretty sure we were better with JPA versus Molina

Farsight
02-08-2012, 01:14 PM
JP will be better at the plate this year...at every stage of his career thus far he has improved from one year to next when he jumps to the next level. There is absolutely nothing to suggest he won't improve. D'Ar will be good I'm sure but he still hasn't played a game in the bigs...

Not too mention 3 of of our top 20 prospects are catchers...and of the three, pundits agree that the other two are better defensively than either JPA or D'Ar...

And from my standpoint I still cannot understand why people think JPA is terrible defensively? He was a rookie, catching for a very young squad that was sometimes wild. And our pitchers as a group are very easy to run on...which means people will run a lot on us. For example if you compare Martin and JPA, teams ran against us 25 more times...which is pretty significant. JPA's fielding percentage is better, and he had 4 less errors...

And please don't try and tell me that his WAR is awful...major flaw in that system...aside from too many distinct variables being sandwiched together, WAR = wins above replacement...in my mind that translates to is the team better with him in the line-up or with his replacement...I'm pretty sure we were better with JPA versus Molina There was only 2 level that Arencibia performed well in, and that was A+ (for half a season) and AAA in 2010 (and we all know the vegas effect)So that is a misconception that Arencibia has improved year after year.

And if you look at studies, Arencibia is one of the worse catcher defensively, which really hinders him, unless he learns to get on base at a higher rate

town123
02-08-2012, 01:24 PM
GTA.

It's kind of ignorant of you to assume that the majority of people on this forum and everyone commenting on the subject online is wrong, and you and your childhood friends are right. Say "back catcher" out loud. It sounds like "bat catcher". It would have been easy for a younger version of yourself to confuse.

I can be ignorant at times. I played all over Canada as a kid and was/is pretty sure the proper name was bat catcher, not that this means much.

Say 'bat catcher' out loud. It sounds like 'back catcher'. Just because I seem to be in the minority here doesn't mean I'm wrong. But, I could be.

ILDD
02-08-2012, 01:55 PM
I don't really know what this is supposed to mean, but I wouldn't be opposed to moving Arencibia to 1B eventually. He played some 1B in college, and his defense isn't as good as d'Arnaud's, so I'm going to guess that Arencibia will be the one who is forced to change positions if/when d'Arnaud makes it to the big leagues.

To be honest, I wouldn't mind seeing the Jays testing out Arencibia in LF down the line.

JPA has little to no value at 1B, his bat just isn't good enough for the position. Another team will want a catcher who is young, has shown solid power and is working on his defense and will give up someone else of more value for him.


I look at it like this:


Myself and my wife need 2 vehicles - I need a truck (analagous to a catcher) and she needs a BMW (analagous to a first baseman).

I have a decent truck (JPA) and another truck (d'Arnaud) arrives that is better than my current one.

I could give my truck to my wife and have her trundle around in it all day while it acts as a back-up for my vehicle. She has a vehicle that doesn't suit her needs and is a below average commuting car. JPA is the same - he does the job of a 1B but not very well.

The better option is to sell my existing truck and buy a BMW that does the job she wants much better. JPA is a tradeable asset that will bring back a real 1B to play the position.

For most of the time we are better off as a family with my truck and her BMW but we do suffer when my truck is in the garage getting work done and I have to rely on the beater that I keep for emergencies. AA will trade JPA for a first baseman and the team will be ahead overall unless d'Arnaud gets injured and spends a long time on the DL.

Ace Drivers
02-08-2012, 02:02 PM
There was only 2 level that Arencibia performed well in, and that was A+ (for half a season) and AAA in 2010 (and we all know the vegas effect)So that is a misconception that Arencibia has improved year after year.

And if you look at studies, Arencibia is one of the worse catcher defensively, which really hinders him, unless he learns to get on base at a higher rate

Can everyone agree that D'Ar will be playing full time in Vegas for the majority of 2012? I think it's a safe bet...why don't we look at the numbers side by side?

And I didn't say he improved every season, what I said was every time he is promoted the first year there's a dip offensively, and then he comes back the next year and shows significant improvement. Regardless of what people think of the PCL, it's still triple A ball and no one can deny the improvement from 2007 to 2008, and 2009 to 2010...

And what studies are you talking about?...the negative things I find about his defensive skills are from the minors or before 2011 started...anything written about his defence after 2011 says that he has made tremendous defensive strides and should no longer be considered a defensive liability. Find me one "study" that points to him not being MLB calibre defensively written after July 2011...and I'm not suggesting he's the best...far from it, what I'm saying is that he's not bad...which is better than a lot.

What I really want to know is what OBP does he need to acheive in order for people to stop slagging the guy. HE WAS A ROOKIE LAST YEAR! And maybe 20BA points away from being either an all-star...or at the very least rookie of the year candidate.

LuckyLuke2
02-08-2012, 02:05 PM
What if JPA went on to be the full time DH...? D'Arnaud is going to be the catcher, he should be right now. He's ready. JPA is really close with Romero, Lawrie, all that stuff... so it would be difficult to imagine him being traded.

I don't see Encarnacion the long term DH... I like JPA I hope he stays.

Ace Drivers
02-08-2012, 02:07 PM
Another thought while we continuously berate our potential stud catcher...who do people think is the best offensive catcher (minimum 100 games actually started behind the plate), and who do people think is the best defensive catcher in the league...I just wanna know who I have to compare him to when I give the board a big "I told you so!" one year from now

craigerlee
02-08-2012, 02:20 PM
And I didn't say he improved every season, what I said was every time he is promoted the first year there's a dip offensively, and then he comes back the next year and shows significant improvement. Regardless of what people think of the PCL, it's still triple A ball and no one can deny the improvement from 2007 to 2008, and 2009 to 2010...
Thing is JPA came out of college, and college guys shouldn't be repeating levels more than once especially when there's no one blocking them at that position. This is because they're usually older and more polished than the other guys at the level who came out of high school.

And what studies are you talking about?...the negative things I find about his defensive skills are from the minors or before 2011 started...anything written about his defence after 2011 says that he has made tremendous defensive strides and should no longer be considered a defensive liability. Find me one "study" that points to him not being MLB calibre defensively written after July 2011...and I'm not suggesting he's the best...far from it, what I'm saying is that he's not bad...which is better than a lot.
This is a pretty detailed catcher defensive rankings that combines everything such as throwing errors, fielding errors, passed balls, and caught stealing.
Beyond the Box Score (http://www.beyondtheboxscore.com/2011/11/1/2497088/2011-beyond-the-box-score-catcher-defense-rankings)

You can also go to fangraphs or baseball reference and check out their defensive rankings. JPA is at the bottom of those ones too.

What I really want to know is what OBP does he need to acheive in order for people to stop slagging the guy. HE WAS A ROOKIE LAST YEAR! And maybe 20BA points away from being either an all-star...or at the very least rookie of the year candidate.
I'd like to see his OBP at at least .310-.320, I think that would be quite respectable for a catcher with his type of power. I could care less about his average as he's a flyball hitter and averages tend to be low for those guys anyways.

craigerlee
02-08-2012, 02:23 PM
Another thought while we continuously berate our potential stud catcher...who do people think is the best offensive catcher (minimum 100 games actually started behind the plate), and who do people think is the best defensive catcher in the league...I just wanna know who I have to compare him to when I give the board a big "I told you so!" one year from now

I'd say Mccann would be my pick for best offensive catcher, however a healthy Mauer would exceed him offensively. Buster Posey I think also has the potential to be the best offensive catcher. As for defensive its Wieters or Yadier for me.

TRIUMPHATOR
02-08-2012, 02:48 PM
So some of you still refuse to admit/understand that he had vision problems that climaxed in 2009. He had laser surgery so that he could see. Now I am not here to say JPA will be our long term catcher, but eliminate that season and he's been on an upward curve for several years. Give him this year and talk to me in Nov. 2012.

mike_noodles
02-08-2012, 02:52 PM
Let's see what JPA can do with two healthy hands for a full season before we write him off. A hand injury to an everyday catcher can wreak havoc on their performance at the plate. I would expect his numbers to return to the level they were at prior to his 2011 hand injury.

Farsight
02-08-2012, 02:54 PM
Can everyone agree that D'Ar will be playing full time in Vegas for the majority of 2012? I think it's a safe bet...why don't we look at the numbers side by side?

And I didn't say he improved every season, what I said was every time he is promoted the first year there's a dip offensively, and then he comes back the next year and shows significant improvement. Regardless of what people think of the PCL, it's still triple A ball and no one can deny the improvement from 2007 to 2008, and 2009 to 2010...

And what studies are you talking about?...the negative things I find about his defensive skills are from the minors or before 2011 started...anything written about his defence after 2011 says that he has made tremendous defensive strides and should no longer be considered a defensive liability. Find me one "study" that points to him not being MLB calibre defensively written after July 2011...and I'm not suggesting he's the best...far from it, what I'm saying is that he's not bad...which is better than a lot.

What I really want to know is what OBP does he need to acheive in order for people to stop slagging the guy. HE WAS A ROOKIE LAST YEAR! And maybe 20BA points away from being either an all-star...or at the very least rookie of the year candidate. craigerlee just posted the articles i was referring to (thanks by the way)

We are talking about Vegas which is by far one of the worse ball parks. Chris Woodward posted an OBP of 350 in vegas in 109 games. He also had an ISO of 178. Look at Cooper as well, never accomplished anything before offensively, than goes to vegas only to put up insane stats. Than you can look at Hech going this year and putting up great stats in a short period of time, even though he has not done anything offensively throughout his whole career.

If you look at D'Arnaud minor leauge career, he has performed much better in the minors and at a younger level than Arencibia. You have to remember that D'Arnaud was drafted out of high school, were Arencibia was a college drafted player which still spent a decent amount of time in the minors

Ace Drivers
02-08-2012, 03:40 PM
Arencibia 2008
126 537 510 70 152 36 0 27 105 0 0 18 101 .298 .322 .527 .850
D'Arnaud 2010 (A+ ball)
A+ TOR 71 292 263 36 68 20 1 6 38 3 1 20 63 .259 .315 .411 .726 108
2011 (AA ball)
114 466 424 72 132 33 1 21 78 4 2 33 100 .311 .371 .542 .914 230

Oh, and btw, this will be D'Arnaud's 5th season in the minors...and I just looked he only played more than 100 games twice...I question his durability, very important for a catcher...where as JP played more than 100 games in all but his first in the minors...

And the stats above don't tell me he's that much better offensively...what will people say when he doesn't better JP's stats in Vegas...I have no doubt someone will show me an accurate statistical analysis demonstrating that all of a sudden Vegas is now a pitchers park...

JermanJaysFan
02-08-2012, 04:02 PM
I can be ignorant at times. I played all over Canada as a kid and was/is pretty sure the proper name was bat catcher, not that this means much.

Say 'bat catcher' out loud. It sounds like 'back catcher'. Just because I seem to be in the minority here doesn't mean I'm wrong. But, I could be.
With colloquial terms, that is generally the case :D.

But you're right, who cares haha. I think we both agree that "catcher" is the preferred term.

town123
02-08-2012, 04:03 PM
With colloquial terms, that is generally the case :D.

But you're right, who cares haha. I think we both agree that "catcher" is the preferred term.

Agreed.

JermanJaysFan
02-08-2012, 04:06 PM
Arencibia 2008
126 537 510 70 152 36 0 27 105 0 0 18 101 .298 .322 .527 .850
D'Arnaud 2010 (A+ ball)
A+ TOR 71 292 263 36 68 20 1 6 38 3 1 20 63 .259 .315 .411 .726 108
2011 (AA ball)
114 466 424 72 132 33 1 21 78 4 2 33 100 .311 .371 .542 .914 230

Oh, and btw, this will be D'Arnaud's 5th season in the minors...and I just looked he only played more than 100 games twice...I question his durability, very important for a catcher...where as JP played more than 100 games in all but his first in the minors...

And the stats above don't tell me he's that much better offensively...what will people say when he doesn't better JP's stats in Vegas...I have no doubt someone will show me an accurate statistical analysis demonstrating that all of a sudden Vegas is now a pitchers park...
His first season was rookie ball- they only have a 57 game season
His second season was mostly spent in short-season A ball- something like 75 game seasons IIRC.

That means that, really, he is 2-for-3 in playing 100+ game seasons.

Farsight
02-08-2012, 04:36 PM
Arencibia 2008
126 537 510 70 152 36 0 27 105 0 0 18 101 .298 .322 .527 .850
D'Arnaud 2010 (A+ ball)
A+ TOR 71 292 263 36 68 20 1 6 38 3 1 20 63 .259 .315 .411 .726 108
2011 (AA ball)
114 466 424 72 132 33 1 21 78 4 2 33 100 .311 .371 .542 .914 230

Oh, and btw, this will be D'Arnaud's 5th season in the minors...and I just looked he only played more than 100 games twice...I question his durability, very important for a catcher...where as JP played more than 100 games in all but his first in the minors...

And the stats above don't tell me he's that much better offensively...what will people say when he doesn't better JP's stats in Vegas...I have no doubt someone will show me an accurate statistical analysis demonstrating that all of a sudden Vegas is now a pitchers park...
Arencibia was a college drafted player... D'Arnaud was drafted out of highschool, theres a reason why he has been in the minors for a longer period of time

And D'Arnaud is better offensively, he has show that he can get on base more effectively throughout the minors, and he has power (not as good, but close) to that of Arencibia.

Ace Drivers
02-08-2012, 05:03 PM
So I have one guy telling me JP spent a lot of time in the minors...and for a catcher 4 years is not long...and I have another guy telling me D'Ar was a highschool draftee therefore will be in the minors longer...but wait a second it's not like he was not playing or developing...in fact he was getting paid to play and being developed by professionals...

and lets' taker a look at those three seasons that "qualify"...only once did he have an OPB over 320...

Look I'm not arguing that D'Ar isn't a good player, or great player for that matter...I actually trust AA and he would not have made the move if he didn't think he was good...but it seems like people on this board are ready to ditch the best Catcher we've had in I don't know how many years...and ready to annoint D'Ar as the second coming...

The reality of it is...is that we have NO idea how good he will be...

Ace Drivers
02-08-2012, 05:05 PM
If he crushes what JP did in Vegas, then yes let's get him up here and see what he can do...this also assumes JP doesn't improve offensively

JermanJaysFan
02-08-2012, 05:24 PM
So I have one guy telling me JP spent a lot of time in the minors...and for a catcher 4 years is not long...and I have another guy telling me D'Ar was a highschool draftee therefore will be in the minors longer...but wait a second it's not like he was not playing or developing...in fact he was getting paid to play and being developed by professionals...

and lets' taker a look at those three seasons that "qualify"...only once did he have an OPB over 320...

Look I'm not arguing that D'Ar isn't a good player, or great player for that matter...I actually trust AA and he would not have made the move if he didn't think he was good...but it seems like people on this board are ready to ditch the best Catcher we've had in I don't know how many years...and ready to annoint D'Ar as the second coming...

The reality of it is...is that we have NO idea how good he will be...
Granted, JPA probably still has some upside to improve, but based on past performance (which is what you are referring to here):
Buck in 2010 was better than JPA in 2011. Some might say (based on how much you like C defensive metrics) Barajas was better in 2009. Molina was better in 2006, and Zaun had an excellent season that outshone JPAs 2011 back in 2005, as did Fletcher in 1999 and 2000.

craigerlee
02-08-2012, 05:25 PM
So I have one guy telling me JP spent a lot of time in the minors...and for a catcher 4 years is not long...and I have another guy telling me D'Ar was a highschool draftee therefore will be in the minors longer...but wait a second it's not like he was not playing or developing...in fact he was getting paid to play and being developed by professionals...

There's good coaches in college too, albeit they don't look out for the players future, but they can develop and coach players. So I don't see what's the problem with what anyone said. Obviously if you start baseball in rookie and instructional leagues(HS player) as opposed to low A(College Player) its gonna take you longer. Hence why D'Arnaud should take longer to develop than Arencibia.

and lets' taker a look at those three seasons that "qualify"...only once did he have an OPB over 320...

Look I'm not arguing that D'Ar isn't a good player, or great player for that matter...I actually trust AA and he would not have made the move if he didn't think he was good...but it seems like people on this board are ready to ditch the best Catcher we've had in I don't know how many years...and ready to annoint D'Ar as the second coming...

The reality of it is...is that we have NO idea how good he will be...

Its not just the OBP, I think the fact D'Arnaud has had a career K/BB ratio in the minors of 2.5 compared to JPA's 3.7 just shows that D'Arnaud has a much better idea of the strike zone, better plate discipline, and better ability to make contact. Add to the fact D'Arnaud tapped into his power this year and according to every scout I've read is gonna be a much better defender. You can see why people wanna anoint D'Arnaud the next catcher. I don't think anyone one has a personal vendetta against JPA, its just asset management, there's no point in having two players that do the same thing when you have weaknesses in other areas that need addressing. It makes sense to trade JPA to upgrade somewhere else.

mtf
02-08-2012, 05:37 PM
Alex Anthopoulos recently answered the question regarding the Arencibia/D'Arnaud issue when asked by Bob McCown on Primetime Sports. He said that both of them maintain maximum value when played as the #1 catcher and implied that JP Arencibia would be traded (if in fact D'Arnaud is better as most of us expect him to be) rather than switched to a different position.

The whole issue seemed very similar to the conversation last year regarding Hechevarria and Escobar, regarding one of them possibly being moved to fill the void at second base. Anthopoulos tried several times to clarify that both of them are capable of being major league starting shortstops, and that they have a higher value there than they do as a second baseman.

JaysFan87
02-08-2012, 07:50 PM
When I was a kid, I thought it was Bat Catcher. I always thought it was odd: you don't actually go around catching bats. It's bad enough catching the ball at those speeds, let alone having to worry about catching the bats as well :D

It wasn't until I started playing in an organized league that I saw it written down as Back Catcher.

But its not a back catcher. The position is a CATCHER!!!!

mtf
02-08-2012, 10:48 PM
But its not a back catcher. The position is a CATCHER!!!!

I call the pitcher the Front Thrower

StealingSigns
02-08-2012, 11:26 PM
But its not a back catcher. The position is a CATCHER!!!!

... which was commonly referred to as Back Catcher in Canada, and the term is still used in some regions. Not sure why you are having such a hard time understanding or accepting this. The OP took some heat for the thread title, I was just trying to assure him he is not crazy for using the term, even if it is a little dated.

Farsight
02-08-2012, 11:34 PM
... which was commonly referred to as Back Catcher in Canada, and the term is still used in some regions. Not sure why you are having such a hard time understanding or accepting this. The OP took some heat for the thread title, I was just trying to assure him he is not crazy for using the term, even if it is a little dated.Yeah that term is still used. When i was playing rep baseball like 4-6 years ago they used that term

JaysFan87
02-08-2012, 11:36 PM
... which was commonly referred to as Back Catcher in Canada, and the term is still used in some regions. Not sure why you are having such a hard time understanding or accepting this. The OP took some heat for the thread title, I was just trying to assure him he is not crazy for using the term, even if it is a little dated.

Just becasue its used doesn't mean its the correct term. Like I said its a pet peeve of mine. But to rationalize the usage of the term by saying that it is " used in some regions" is completely wrong. Just becasue many people name the position incorrectly doesn't mean people should accept it.

StealingSigns
02-08-2012, 11:42 PM
Just becasue its used doesn't mean its the correct term. Like I said its a pet peeve of mine. But to rationalize the usage of the term by saying that it is " used in some regions" is completely wrong. Just becasue many people name the position incorrectly doesn't mean people should accept it.

Oh wow, didn't realize you were the authority on proper baseball terminology and that generations of baseball fans and players before your time were all wrong. On behalf of all of them, I apologize for our transgressions.

JaysFan87
02-09-2012, 12:19 AM
Oh wow, didn't realize you were the authority on proper baseball terminology and that generations of baseball fans and players before your time were all wrong. On behalf of all of them, I apologize for our transgressions.

I am no such person. I am just a baseball fan who gets annoyed by people calling a position incorrectly. Its not like its that hard to call a catcher a "catcher". Its actually shorter than "back catcher". Don't know why people find it offensive when others say that they are wrong in using that term.

StealingSigns
02-09-2012, 12:23 AM
I am no such person. I am just a baseball fan who gets annoyed by people calling a position incorrectly. Its not like its that hard to call a catcher a "catcher". Its actually shorter than "back catcher". Don't know why people find it offensive when others say that they are wrong in using that term.

Just like you are getting annoyed when others here are telling you that you are wrong??

2009mvp
02-09-2012, 12:28 AM
Holy **** this argument is seriously happening? Lighten up dude, I'm sure no one intended to offend your delicate sensibilities by calling a catcher a back catcher.

JaysFan87
02-09-2012, 12:29 AM
Just like you are getting annoyed when others here are telling you that you are wrong??

huh?

This is not debating worth or how good a player is. Its simple terminology. A catcher is a called a catcher. Its really that simple.

StealingSigns
02-09-2012, 12:32 AM
Holy **** this argument is seriously happening? Lighten up dude, I'm sure no one intended to offend your delicate sensibilities by calling a catcher a back catcher.

Well he has. I am about to challenge him to a pistol duel at 50 paces.

I get it, this thread is way off track. As stated before though, I was trying to comfort the OP after all the flack he took at the beginning of this thread over the title.

I'm good with dropping it lol

2009mvp
02-09-2012, 12:33 AM
Well he has. I am about to challenge him to a pistol duel at 50 paces.

I get it, this thread is way off track. As stated before though, I was trying to comfort the OP after all the flack he took at the beginning of this thread over the title.

I'm good with dropping it lol

Oh that definitely wasn't directed at you.

JaysFan87
02-09-2012, 12:38 AM
Holy **** this argument is seriously happening? Lighten up dude, I'm sure no one intended to offend your delicate sensibilities by calling a catcher a back catcher.

Prolly got out of hand, i get it. But its still wrong.



Well he has. I am about to challenge him to a pistol duel at 50 paces.

I get it, this thread is way off track. As stated before though, I was trying to comfort the OP after all the flack he took at the beginning of this thread over the title.

I'm good with dropping it lol


Likewise...still wrong. :hide:

Farsight
02-09-2012, 12:40 AM
Catcher maybe the recognize term in baseball for that position, but i never really understood the argument. If we all knew what he was referring to, this should have been a non issue

StealingSigns
02-09-2012, 12:54 AM
haha can you tell it's February?

Thankfully only 13 more days until Pitchers and Back Catchers report for Spring Training.

JaysFan87
02-09-2012, 12:58 AM
i hate February because it means that there is a month until ST really gets kicked off but i also love February because it means that there is a month until ST really gets kicked off. What is wrong with me?:(

StealingSigns
02-09-2012, 01:01 AM
i hate February because it means that there is a month until ST really gets kicked off but i also love February because it means that there is a month until ST really gets kicked off. What is wrong with me?:(

Nuthin'. We are all looking forward to ST. Maybe I'll start the prospect ranking threads this week to tide us over.

mike_noodles
02-09-2012, 01:02 AM
Prolly got out of hand, i get it. But its still wrong.





Likewise...still wrong. :hide:

I can see you flying around the world chasing down everyone on the internet and confronting them about it a la Jay and Silent Bob.

Use google.

Click on images.

Type in "back catcher".

Look at the results.

Scream in horror.

Farsight
02-09-2012, 01:08 AM
I can see you flying around the world chasing down everyone on the internet and confronting them about it a la Jay and Silent Bob.

Use google.

Click on images.

Type in "back catcher".

Look at the results.

Scream in horror.
lololol i loved that movie

JaysFan87
02-09-2012, 01:11 AM
Nuthin'. We are all looking forward to ST. Maybe I'll start the prospect ranking threads this week to tide us over.

Mr. Law comes out with his individual prospect rankings tmr maybe that could hold me over till march!

StealingSigns
02-09-2012, 01:12 AM
I can see you flying around the world chasing down everyone on the internet and confronting them about it a la Jay and Silent Bob.

Use google.

Click on images.

Type in "back catcher".

Look at the results.

Scream in horror.

:laugh:

StealingSigns
02-09-2012, 01:15 AM
Mr. Law comes out with his individual prospect rankings tmr maybe that could hold me over till march!

Yep, so many lists coming out right now.

DJF put this out a couple of days ago, nice comparison chart:

http://www.drunkjaysfans.com/2012/02/prospecting-charting-progression-of.html

bartron_44
02-13-2012, 12:51 PM
I don't know why everyone thinks JPA will NEVER hit for any kind of average. He hit around .300 2 twice in the minors, and the year he didn't, he was battling major injury and vision problems.

He has had less then 500 AB's in the majors and people think he has peaked....yet Snider is still viewed as a potential all-star by many on this forum. Before he got hurt last year, he was off to a great start over the first 40 games with an average of almost .260, and an OPS of .824.

The question is, even if he can do that for an entire season, is that good enough to be an "elite" player?

Look at all the good young catchers in the AL:

Carlos Santana (26 in April)
Matt Weiters (26 in May)
Alex Avila (25)
Jesus Montero (22...assuming Seattle keeps him behind the plate)
Salvador Perez (21)

You also still have Mauer who only turns 29 this year...and Napoli and Martinez still spend at least some time behind the plate. 3 or 4 may not stick there much longer, but that still leaves some pretty good hitters just entering their primes. Its not a position of strength in the AL East, but it is in the AL overall.

To compete in the AL East, you need elite players at every position. I think JPA would be a solid backup, and a decent everyday catcher in the NL, but we need someone who can give us an .850-.900 OPS if you are going to consider them an "elite" catcher in the AL.

Until last season I didn't see why TDA was better then JPA, but after the showing he had his first year in AA, the scouts look like fortune tellers. If that injury to his hand playing for Team USA last year doesn't set him back, he should have a silly year in AAA, and if JPA gets hurt or struggles, he should be up in 2012.

JaysFan87
02-13-2012, 05:14 PM
I don't know why everyone thinks JPA will NEVER hit for any kind of average. He hit around .300 2 twice in the minors, and the year he didn't, he was battling major injury and vision problems.

He has had less then 500 AB's in the majors and people think he has peaked....yet Snider is still viewed as a potential all-star by many on this forum. Before he got hurt last year, he was off to a great start over the first 40 games with an average of almost .260, and an OPS of .824.

The question is, even if he can do that for an entire season, is that good enough to be an "elite" player?

Look at all the good young catchers in the AL:

Carlos Santana (26 in April)
Matt Weiters (26 in May)
Alex Avila (25)
Jesus Montero (22...assuming Seattle keeps him behind the plate)
Salvador Perez (21)

You also still have Mauer who only turns 29 this year...and Napoli and Martinez still spend at least some time behind the plate. 3 or 4 may not stick there much longer, but that still leaves some pretty good hitters just entering their primes. Its not a position of strength in the AL East, but it is in the AL overall.

To compete in the AL East, you need elite players at every position. I think JPA would be a solid backup, and a decent everyday catcher in the NL, but we need someone who can give us an .850-.900 OPS if you are going to consider them an "elite" catcher in the AL.

Until last season I didn't see why TDA was better then JPA, but after the showing he had his first year in AA, the scouts look like fortune tellers. If that injury to his hand playing for Team USA last year doesn't set him back, he should have a silly year in AAA, and if JPA gets hurt or struggles, he should be up in 2012.


Its very very unlikely that JPA will ever hit for average consistently. He just simple does not make enough contact and would rely on an unsustainable high BABIP of something like .350 to hit for only a .300 average. His career is full of high strikeout and low-end BB% which is the ingredients to a low BA/OBP. Anyone can improve but its very very unlikely that he improves as the level of competition increases.

wamco
02-14-2012, 07:19 PM
the term "back catcher" of course is accurate.