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View Full Version : Has Loul Deng had the most success with or without Rose?



SiriusXM25
02-04-2012, 12:28 AM
Before Rose came to the Bulls, Deng has been a solid player; especially the 2006 season. He's been a solid player each year untill the Bulls got Rose and he turned Deng into a possible All Star Reserve very soon. Rose has turned Deng into a solid NBA player. Heck he turned this team into a NBA contender. So question is if the Bulls never drafted Rose, would Deng of been this good? Not saying he is in the same class as Lebron, Kobe and Durant.

KingPosey
02-04-2012, 12:42 AM
Rose didnt turn Deng into anything. The team is much better now, and they all compliment one another.

SiriusXM25
02-04-2012, 12:46 AM
Rose didnt turn Deng into anything. The team is much better now, and they all compliment one another.

They weren't a contender before Rose got here. Not since the Jordan days. The whole team is playing together, and it starts with Rose.

Kyben36
02-04-2012, 12:48 AM
I really am not going to try and say much, becuase it going to be hommer, but I dont think rose has helped his game much, the main thing rose has done is forced him to become a better shooter, or, just more so extend his range. Deng was allways a good Cutter, good mid range shooter, and good defender, but was never a great shooter from deep. he wanst inconsistant, but the coaches never made it a point for him to spread the floor when he had Hinrich and Gordon ( two good/Great 3pt shooters) beside him.

I dont think that Deng has become better or worse to me. but if he has it isnt because Rose made him that way. Deng is a solid player, but would never ever be able to lead a team by himself, To me, I still see him as a 3rd option at best.

SiriusXM25
02-04-2012, 12:57 AM
Bulls 2007/2008 season: 33-49. Rose in college.

Bulls 2008/2009 season: 41-41. First year with Rose.

Bulls 2009/2010 season: 41-41. Second year with Rose.

Bulls 2010-2011 season: 62-20. Third year with Rose.

Bulls 2011-2012 season so far: 19-6.

Your telling me Rose didn't turn this team around the last 4 years?

kozelkid
02-04-2012, 01:08 AM
And 06-07 they were 49-33.

Let's not act it was completely Rose. Luol Deng was a very good player long before Rose was here. Problem was that pressure got to him and afterwards, he was utilized poorly. It wasn't until Thibs came in and Deng finally learned to avoid the injury bug and keep himself in better condition, that he began to thrive again. Not as the scorer that many though he'd be back in 07, but rather as a glue guy and absolutely key defender. Along with being a reliable 2nd and 3rd option. Deng's success has far more to do with Thibs knowing how to use his strengths and Deng finally get healthy again than Rose.

Raph12
02-04-2012, 01:12 AM
Statistically from 2006-08, Deng was better than he has ever been with Rose. The team is better as a result of good moves by MGMT... Rose didn't turn Deng into a better player, if anything, he has hindered Deng's production/efficiency since he got there.

Cool007
02-04-2012, 01:14 AM
Rose certainly has helped Deng. Deng is a great defender but offensively having Rose next to him and not having to be a #1 scorer/player on the team takes a lot of pressure off of you.

That has helped Deng in a big way. Also, him being healthy was a big part as well. This year, he has been up and down offensively but still superb defensively.

Unfortunately his wrist is messed up this year and has been missing games and will miss few more. He will also play hurt/injured the rest of the way.

So in short, having Rose next to you helps Deng focused on his things (play great defense and be a 2nd/3rd scorer). He is doing a great job so far.

Cool007
02-04-2012, 01:17 AM
Statistically from 2006-08, Deng was better than he has ever been with Rose. The team is better as a result of good moves by MGMT... Rose didn't turn Deng into a better player, if anything, he has hindered Deng's production/efficiency since he got there.

That is the MOST PATHETIC thing I ever heard here.

It's like someone saying Dwight has turned Jason richardson into much worse player than he was when he was with Suns.

Mano86
02-04-2012, 01:22 AM
Rose has helped, but i think its more coaching styles rather anything else. Deng offensively thrives on ball movement and cutting/slashing to the basket which is why he played well playing for Thibs/Skiles. under Del Negro they made Deng more of a stand still spot up shooter w/ the occasional iso, which is not Deng's style of play.

kozelkid
02-04-2012, 01:32 AM
Statistically from 2006-08, Deng was better than he has ever been with Rose. The team is better as a result of good moves by MGMT... Rose didn't turn Deng into a better player, if anything, he has hindered Deng's production/efficiency since he got there.

That's just not true at all.

Luol Deng- textbook example of where PER fails to tell the whole truth.

And I'm very sorry if you actually believe this to be the case.

Chronz
02-04-2012, 01:37 AM
Same player he has always been, just naturally progressing/evolving as a player. Deng is the best Non All-Star I can think of off the top of my head.

Raph12
02-04-2012, 01:38 AM
That is the MOST PATHETIC thing I ever heard here.

It's like someone saying Dwight has turned Jason richardson into much worse player than he was when he was with Suns.

I didn't say Deng was a worse player, I said Rose hindered his production/efficiency... Dwight has done the same to JRich, with the amount of touches Dwight gets and the way JRich gets the ball (a pass out of doubles) compared to how he used to get it (a pass in the fast break in rhythem), it is affecting his production/efficiency... It's like Wade's numbers after Lebron got their, he was more efficient and productive in 2008-2010, but it doesn't mean he was a worse player last season, just limited.

Deng was used to playing a certain way, which allowed him to be the best he could be. With Rose controlling the ball, Deng has been limited some, but the team is better overall.

Chronz
02-04-2012, 01:39 AM
That's just not true at all.

Luol Deng- textbook example of where PER fails to tell the whole truth.

And I'm very sorry if you actually believe this to be the case.

Whats not true? Whats he saying about PER?

MJ-BULLS
02-04-2012, 01:39 AM
Deng sucks and he is overpaid.

Chronz
02-04-2012, 01:41 AM
That is the MOST PATHETIC thing I ever heard here.

It's like someone saying Dwight has turned Jason richardson into much worse player than he was when he was with Suns.

Your overreacting to a simple observation, even if hes wrong its not as if hes saying its a night and day difference.

kozelkid
02-04-2012, 01:43 AM
Whats not true? Whats he saying about PER?

Because it would seem the most obvious stat the undersells Deng's ability. In fact, it's rather interesting the discrepancy in his APM vs. PER where he's consistently at near the top of league in one and very average in the other.

kozelkid
02-04-2012, 01:48 AM
I didn't say Deng was a worse player, I said Rose hindered his production/efficiency... Dwight has done the same to JRich, with the amount of touches Dwight gets and the way JRich gets the ball (a pass out of doubles) compared to how he used to get it (a pass in the fast break in rhythem), it is affecting his production/efficiency... It's like Wade's numbers after Lebron got their, he was more efficient and productive in 2008-2010, but it doesn't mean he was a worse player last season, just limited.

Deng was used to playing a certain way, which allowed him to be the best he could be. With Rose controlling the ball, Deng has been limited some, but the team is better overall.

Meh, don't buy it. His ts% has been usually in the low .500. In fact, he had his second most efficient season last year. Fact is he had one GREAT year in 06-07 when everyone was ready to declare him a star before he really failed expectations and then really had trouble with the injury bug the following year.

As for his efficiency troubles this year, sample size is small and he has been very bad from 3 this season for whatever reason.

abe_froman
02-04-2012, 01:49 AM
Before Rose came to the Bulls, Deng has been a solid player; especially the 2006 season. He's been a solid player each year untill the Bulls got Rose and he turned Deng into a possible All Star Reserve very soon. Rose has turned Deng into a solid NBA player. Heck he turned this team into a NBA contender. So question is if the Bulls never drafted Rose, would Deng of been this good? Not saying he is in the same class as Lebron, Kobe and Durant.

deng has always been a good player(except when he broke his leg/was coming back from it),has nothing to do with rose.so yes he would have been this good...would the bulls be this good though? no,because deng isnt a franchise/superstar player.just a good one(that why there has been more success since rose)

Chronz
02-04-2012, 01:52 AM
Because it would seem the most obvious stat the undersells Deng's ability. In fact, it's rather interesting the discrepancy in his APM vs. PER where he's consistently at near the top of league in one and very average in the other.
Interesting you mention it.
APM attempts to capture team impact, that hes consistently at the top lends credence to that stat actually correlating to his contributions but at the same time, nobody gave a **** about this fact when people were building up Rose's MVP candidacy. They would rant about how Rose wasnt ranked as high therefore flawed.


As for PER, if its underselling his ability, wouldnt it undersell him throughout his career? Whats so different now, its not as if your comparing Deng to anyone else but Deng himself.

Raph12
02-04-2012, 01:55 AM
Meh, don't buy it. His ts% has been usually in the low .500. In fact, he had his second most efficient season last year. Fact is he had one GREAT year in 06-07 when everyone was ready to declare him a star before he really failed expectations and then really had trouble with the injury bug the following year.

As for his efficiency troubles this year, sample size is small and he has been very bad from 3 this season for whatever reason.

His numbers were at its best in 2006-07, but also very good in 2007-08 despite injuries; in those two seasons he played better than he ever has with Rose so far.

Actually this season he has been better than he was last season so I don't know where you're going with that one. He's rebounding better, playing better defense, his turnovers are down, etc... If you mean his shooting, offense is down league-wide, most guys are struggling to keep their legs; too many games, too little time.

D1JM
02-04-2012, 01:56 AM
IMO deng is a better player now than before because rose gets him wide open shots. On the defensive side you have to give the credit to Thibs. Vinny didn't utilize non of the bulls players to their potential.

kozelkid
02-04-2012, 02:01 AM
As for PER, if its underselling his ability, wouldnt it undersell him throughout his career? Whats so different now, its not as if your comparing Deng to anyone else but Deng himself.

Because Thibs changed Deng's role drastically on the team. He is still a nice scoring option, but his true value lies on defense and he isn't a player who necessarily accumulates the raw defensive stats like blocks or steals.


His numbers were at its best in 2006-07, but also very good in 2007-08 despite injuries

Again, in terms of PER, sure.

As an overall player, however, he has finally developed into what everyone was hoping for. Only it's mostly on the other side of the ball which PER isn't always the best measuring stick for.


Actually this season he has been better than he was last season so I don't know where you're going with that one. He's rebounding better, playing better defense, his turnovers are down, etc... If you mean his shooting, offense is down league-wide, most guys are struggling to keep their legs; too many games, too little time.

I was referring strictly to his shooting/scoring efficiency.

Chronz
02-04-2012, 02:15 AM
Because Thibs changed Deng's role drastically on the team. He is still a nice scoring option, but his true value lies on defense and he isn't a player who necessarily accumulates the raw defensive stats like blocks or steals.

But why would his PER be any different if it never differentiated between his positional defensive efforts in the first place. Like Bruce Bowen was always rated low by PER but his defensive decline wasnt really the reason his PER dipped as he aged because it never measured his defense to begin with. His PER declined because he stopped shooting as effectively, something integral to PER.

kozelkid
02-04-2012, 02:17 AM
But why would his PER be any different if it never differentiated between his positional defensive efforts in the first place. Like Bruce Bowen was always rated low by PER but his defensive decline wasnt really the reason his PER dipped, it was because he stopped shooting as effectively, something integral to PER.

Or simply shooting less.

I wouldn't say that's Rose making him worse offensively though. Just less fga, and fga themselves also have a large positive effect on PER unless you're shooting like below some mark in the 20s (forgot the exact number). When in reality, outside of 06-07, Deng has been much more efficient last season.

bears88
02-04-2012, 02:19 AM
Deng sucks and he is overpaid.

:pity:

Chronz
02-04-2012, 02:25 AM
IMO deng is a better player now than before because rose gets him wide open shots. On the defensive side you have to give the credit to Thibs. Vinny didn't utilize non of the bulls players to their potential.

It does pose an interesting question though, why have the Bulls been in need of a secondary scorer and yet been unable to muster that production from Deng. Is there no way for both he and Rose to coexist offensively without stunting the other? Similar to Westbrook and Durant in some ways.

ChiSox219
02-04-2012, 02:30 AM
Interesting you mention it.
APM attempts to capture team impact, that hes consistently at the top lends credence to that stat actually correlating to his contributions but at the same time, nobody gave a **** about this fact when people were building up Rose's MVP candidacy. They would rant about how Rose wasnt ranked as high therefore flawed.


As for PER, if its underselling his ability, wouldnt it undersell him throughout his career? Whats so different now, its not as if your comparing Deng to anyone else but Deng himself.

Rose's apm was mvp caliper


It does pose an interesting question though, why have the Bulls been in need of a secondary scorer and yet been unable to muster that production from Deng. Is there no way for both he and Rose to coexist offensively without stunting the other? Similar to Westbrook and Durant in some ways.

Deng isnt quick, doesnt dribble well, and cant post. Rose allows Deng to go balls to the wall on defense yet maintain decent offensive production over grueling minutes. I think they fit great together and do not get the Westbrook Durat comparo

Bulls_fan90
02-04-2012, 02:35 AM
Deng sucks and he is overpaid.

He fakes injuries too.

Chronz
02-04-2012, 02:36 AM
Or simply shooting less.

I wouldn't say that's Rose making him worse offensively though. Just less fga, and fga themselves also have a large positive effect on PER unless you're shooting like below some mark in the 20s (forgot the exact number). When in reality, outside of 06-07, Deng has been much more efficient last season.

Dengs career is one big mystery to me, I have no idea of his injury history and some here have mentioned a broken leg so it could all just be that injuries derailed his early career but that one isolated season had everyone predicting a rebirth in Chicago, and while I get that those were enormous expectations, the last thing I was expecting was for a young phenom to regress. Which for a short time he did

Hes a better player now than he was before then, Ive always found him to be a superb defender but I wouldnt deny that hes much better now so I get the whole PER not capturing his improvements, but they are capturing something his offensive regression is fairly staggering for someone who really tore into the league in the 06-07 playoffs.

D1JM
02-04-2012, 02:39 AM
It does pose an interesting question though, why have the Bulls been in need of a secondary scorer and yet been unable to muster that production from Deng. Is there no way for both he and Rose to coexist offensively without stunting the other? Similar to Westbrook and Durant in some ways.

Nah. It's not similar because durant and deng have opposite roles in their perspective teams. Durant is the #1 option while deng is either the #2 or #3 depending on how boozer is feeling it. Thibs plan is to get deng going early. Plays always run through deng at the beginning. One thing that is for sure is that deng is the main hook on our defense and not noah

Chronz
02-04-2012, 02:47 AM
Rose's apm was mvp caliper
Dengs was better


Deng isnt quick, doesnt dribble well, and cant post. Rose allows Deng to go balls to the wall on defense yet maintain decent offensive production over grueling minutes. I think they fit great together and do not get the Westbrook Durat comparo

The comparison isnt as drastic because Deng began regressing (offensively) far before Rose showed up.

Deng has always been those things, he was more productive (offensively) before Rose for that 1-2 season. If you believe that isnt a fluke, but rather an example of Deng being utilized to the best of his abilities it makes me wonder why he could never regain those highs now that hes at the peak of his career.

I dont think its Rose so much as it is him, I would love to see what the on/off court data has to say on the matter but it doesnt seem like he changes much regardless, I checked statscube out earlier when I was at home but he experiences the expected uptick in scoring downtick in FG% with Rose vs without so I dont consider that much of a change, more like norm. But in 06-07 he was BOTH more prolific and efficient.

Again I get the defensive improvement, the argument that hes made himself a better defender with less offensive responsibility is a great payoff given his results, Durant has done something similar in OKC actually.

Chronz
02-04-2012, 02:50 AM
Nah. It's not similar because durant and deng have opposite roles in their perspective teams. Durant is the #1 option while deng is either the #2 or #3 depending on how boozer is feeling it. Thibs plan is to get deng going early. Plays always run through deng at the beginning. One thing that is for sure is that deng is the main hook on our defense and not noah
What Im asking is why has Dengs scoring suffered yet the team unable to score? Atleast thats the main complaint Ive heard, that Rose doesnt have enough scoring around him, but your saying Deng doesnt need to?


Agreed on his defense tho

D1JM
02-04-2012, 03:01 AM
What Im asking is why has Dengs scoring suffered yet the team unable to score? Atleast thats the main complaint Ive heard, that Rose doesnt have enough scoring around him, but your saying Deng doesnt need to?

IMO handing the ball and creating their own shot is a bigger problem. It might correlate to what your saying but as soon as the ball leaves rose hands our offense struggles. Deng can't create his shot or be a ball handler.


A big reason why opposite defenses always want the ball off rose hands

ChiSox219
02-04-2012, 03:04 AM
Dengs was better


The comparison isnt as drastic because Deng began regressing (offensively) far before Rose showed up.

Deng has always been those things, he was more productive (offensively) before Rose for that 1-2 season. If you believe that isnt a fluke, but rather an example of Deng being utilized to the best of his abilities it makes me wonder why he could never regain those highs now that hes at the peak of his career.

I dont think its Rose so much as it is him, I would love to see what the on/off court data has to say on the matter but it doesnt seem like he changes much regardless, I checked statscube out earlier when I was at home but he experiences the expected uptick in scoring downtick in FG% with Rose vs without so I dont consider that much of a change, more like norm. But in 06-07 he was BOTH more prolific and efficient.

Again I get the defensive improvement, the argument that hes made himself a better defender with less offensive responsibility is a great payoff given his results, Durant has done something similar in OKC actually.

I guess it depends on which APM model you look at but Rose was near the top of the lists I saw. Deng usually showed well but he's not playing a role that qualifies for MVP consideration.

To mem Deng is basically the same players as 06-07 or any other year only now he's more refined and uses more energy defensively.

xILLN355
02-04-2012, 04:11 AM
He fakes injuries too.

and is a chucker

Chronz
02-04-2012, 04:35 AM
I guess it depends on which APM model you look at but Rose was near the top of the lists I saw.
Its a fuzzy field, I dont see any scientific reasoning behind some of the more convoluted ones, particularly when they involve playoff minutes.

Still most of the ones I respected had Deng a good ways ahead of Rose, RAPM backs this as well.


Deng usually showed well but he's not playing a role that qualifies for MVP consideration.
That may be true, but the whole concept behind +/- is that hes fulfilling his role to a degree worthy of MVP consideration. I never thought of Shane Battier as the No Stats All-Star (that title belongs to Deng) but I could totally buy the argument that his impact is of equal or greater importance than Tmac's back when Houston was relevant and Tmac was the one fulfilling the "Star" role. Daryl Morey suggested as much when he referred to both as equals on his +/- scale.


To mem Deng is basically the same players as 06-07 or any other year only now he's more refined and uses more energy defensively.

So if he was given more defensive support, he could revert to form offensively?


Plain old Adjusted +/-

RAPM

theheatles
02-04-2012, 09:50 AM
Deng was a 19 yr old project coming out and he just took a while to develop, deng was raw as hell

IndyRealist
02-04-2012, 12:11 PM
Deng has always been underrated outside of Chicago.

Corey
02-04-2012, 12:16 PM
This thread is stemming from the thread in the comparisons forum.

OP suggested that Rose made Deng what he is.

Wrong-o.

MakaSizzle
02-04-2012, 12:38 PM
Im sorry a lot of people are out of town stupid.

It is the coaching style that has changed deng into the better player he is today.
As well as playing alongside Rose.

Deng has always been soft in the paint and when Thibs came over he changed that about is playing style. He no longer is afraid to be down low with the bigs. I can't tell you how many point blank layups I have seen deng miss throughout the years. But over the last 2 years he has been making them.

If not for Rose and Thibs everyone would be talking about how bad deng's contract actually is...lucky we're not

jp611
02-04-2012, 12:45 PM
He makes him worse, because he's a ballhog and a thug :sigh:

Corey
02-04-2012, 12:51 PM
If not for Rose and Thibs everyone would be talking about how bad deng's contract actually is...lucky we're not

Deng's two best individual seasons were arguably the two years prior to Rose being drafted.

DLeeicious
02-04-2012, 01:29 PM
Unless I missed something - how has this thread gone 3 pages without mentioning how awful VDN utilized Deng? The way VDN used Deng was night and day difference to the way Skiles did and now Thibs is doing. VDN + injury issues = the decline.

MakaSizzle
02-04-2012, 01:38 PM
Deng's two best individual seasons were arguably the two years prior to Rose being drafted.

That is true when you look at the stats...

I can't argue my point through statistics. All I can tell you is through the eye test by watching the games. Deng has always been soft and VDN did not help that. His best year IMO was 06-07...It was his breakout year. Chicago saw what he could be and he got paid! The next year...not so good. Kobe wanted to come to the bulls the lakers wanted deng but kobe only wanted to come if deng was here. The whole year and the next and next up until last year Chicago saw that deng's contract was inflated and he was not going to be a difference maker. He needed to go. Deng used to be great in the 1st half and then disappear. Then Thibs injected Deng with unfound confidence and he started playing like a pro.

MakaSizzle
02-04-2012, 01:40 PM
VDN was the worst

kingbrentg
02-04-2012, 02:14 PM
Three different coaches, three different ways of utilizing Deng (not counting Boylan after the Skiles firing).

Under Skiles we were a hustling, defensive-minded team with no true leader or top scoring option. It was an odd scenario in which the coach was actually looked to as the main guy to provide any leadership.

Skiles utilized a ton of off the ball cuts, weaves, and slashes being that nearly all of our offense was outside oriented otherwise (still ended up being the downfall of that team). Those weaves and cuts were a prime situation for Deng (offensively) imo. He was fantastic running those cuts, and still is.

Vinny was a complete cluster **** of a coach for the two seasons he was with the Bulls and I honestly have nothing to say about him.

And now under Thibs Deng's role has changed again, being asked to become more of a floor spacer and shooting more threes, while providing primarily a defensive focus. There are less weaves and fewer instances where he's scoring at the basket in a natural offensive set. Boozer and Noah packing the paint affects this as well, though Boozer has been trying to space the floor more recently.

Either way, watching Deng nearly every night over the years it seems apparent how he has matured as a player all around. Outside of his ridiculous 06-07 season and injuries he's been a pretty consistent player throughout his career. He's just being asked to do different things, and adapting very well to those things each time he's been asked.

SteveNash
02-04-2012, 02:18 PM
Bulls 2007/2008 season: 33-49. Rose in college.

Bulls 2008/2009 season: 41-41. First year with Rose.

Bulls 2009/2010 season: 41-41. Second year with Rose.

Bulls 2010-2011 season: 62-20. Third year with Rose.

Bulls 2011-2012 season so far: 19-6.

Your telling me Rose didn't turn this team around the last 4 years?

Bulls 2007/2008 season: 33-49. Rose in college.

Bulls 2008/2009 season: 41-41. First year with Rose.

Bulls 2009/2010 season: 41-41. Second year with Rose.

Bulls 2010-2011 season: 62-20. First year with Boozer

Bulls 2011-2012 season so far: 19-6.

Clearly Boozer made Deng.

DLeeicious
02-04-2012, 02:22 PM
Bulls 2007/2008 season: 33-49. Rose in college.

Bulls 2008/2009 season: 41-41. First year with Rose.

Bulls 2009/2010 season: 41-41. Second year with Rose.

Bulls 2010-2011 season: 62-20. First year with Boozer

Bulls 2011-2012 season so far: 19-6.

Clearly Boozer made Deng.

Also Brewer and Korver and last year especially Bogans made Deng. Let's not forget about Asik and his influence making Deng.

Patman
02-04-2012, 02:24 PM
Im sorry a lot of people are out of town stupid.

It is the coaching style that has changed deng into the better player he is today.
As well as playing alongside Rose.

Deng has always been soft in the paint and when Thibs came over he changed that about is playing style. He no longer is afraid to be down low with the bigs. I can't tell you how many point blank layups I have seen deng miss throughout the years. But over the last 2 years he has been making them.

If not for Rose and Thibs everyone would be talking about how bad deng's contract actually is...lucky we're not

Sorry but Deng does not score more and better in the paint since the arrival of DRose and Thib.

According to 82Games.com Deng took 29% of his shot in close range and 39% of his shots inside, while making 58% and 66% of those shots in 06-07. Last year he took 26% of his shots in close range and 30% inside, while shooting 64% and 67%. He hits a bit better but takes less shots inside and close. His 3 Point Attempts went from 0.1 per Game to 4.1 a Game.
As others pointed out he also was slightly more efficient offensively then last year.

You can Argue that Deng changed his game tanks to thibs and to some extend DRose. He improved on defense which i would attribute to thibs and his work ethic. He worked on his outside shot, so he could provide spacing for The DRose P'n'R and penetration.

I would attribute his change mostly to coaching and his development as a player and change of system and Team needs (Loosing Shooters and gaining a superb PG).

In the end you can say that Rose improved the Bulls as a team, but I'm not so sure he improved the play of Deng.

Chi City23
02-04-2012, 02:27 PM
Three different coaches, three different ways of utilizing Deng (not counting Boylan after the Skiles firing).

Under Skiles we were a hustling, defensive-minded team with no true leader or top scoring option. It was an odd scenario in which the coach was actually looked to as the main guy to provide any leadership.

Skiles utilized a ton of off the ball cuts, weaves, and slashes being that nearly all of our offense was outside oriented otherwise (still ended up being the downfall of that team). Those weaves and cuts were a prime situation for Deng (offensively) imo. He was fantastic running those cuts, and still is.

Vinny was a complete cluster **** of a coach for the two seasons he was with the Bulls and I honestly have nothing to say about him.

And now under Thibs Deng's role has changed again, being asked to become more of a floor spacer and shooting more threes, while providing primarily a defensive focus. There are less weaves and fewer instances where he's scoring at the basket in a natural offensive set. Boozer and Noah packing the paint affects this as well, though Boozer has been trying to space the floor more recently.

Either way, watching Deng nearly every night over the years it seems apparent how he has matured as a player all around. Outside of his ridiculous 06-07 season and injuries he's been a pretty consistent player throughout his career. He's just being asked to do different things, and adapting very well to those things each time he's been asked.

You're so smart :)

JordansBulls
02-04-2012, 02:28 PM
Before Rose came to the Bulls, Deng has been a solid player; especially the 2006 season. He's been a solid player each year untill the Bulls got Rose and he turned Deng into a possible All Star Reserve very soon. Rose has turned Deng into a solid NBA player. Heck he turned this team into a NBA contender. So question is if the Bulls never drafted Rose, would Deng of been this good? Not saying he is in the same class as Lebron, Kobe and Durant.

http://www.basketball-reference.com/playoffs/NBA_2007_EC1.html#CHI-MIA

Deng outplayed Wade in the 2007 playoffs. So Deng was good before Rose came on board.

SteveNash
02-04-2012, 02:30 PM
Also Brewer and Korver and last year especially Bogans made Deng. Let's not forget about Asik and his influence making Deng.

Who are we kidding. Clearly Scal made Deng and Rose. Just look at their 3p shooting.

ChiSox219
02-04-2012, 03:42 PM
Its a fuzzy field, I dont see any scientific reasoning behind some of the more convoluted ones, particularly when they involve playoff minutes.

Still most of the ones I respected had Deng a good ways ahead of Rose, RAPM backs this as well.


That may be true, but the whole concept behind +/- is that hes fulfilling his role to a degree worthy of MVP consideration. I never thought of Shane Battier as the No Stats All-Star (that title belongs to Deng) but I could totally buy the argument that his impact is of equal or greater importance than Tmac's back when Houston was relevant and Tmac was the one fulfilling the "Star" role. Daryl Morey suggested as much when he referred to both as equals on his +/- scale.


So if he was given more defensive support, he could revert to form offensively?


Plain old Adjusted +/-

RAPM

I only use APM to compare players of similar usage. Deng could never maintain his impact with a #1 offensive role.

justinnum1
02-04-2012, 03:59 PM
speaking of deng....
kcjhoop
Whether or not Deng can play through the pain and avoid surgery will hover over #Bulls all season.

Sounds like surgery is still a possibility

DLeeicious
02-04-2012, 04:21 PM
speaking of deng....
kcjhoop

Sounds like surgery is still a possibility

I think he should try and play a few games now to see if it's something he can deal with and if not he can get surgery right away and be there come playoffs. The longer he waits the worse it looks if he needs surgery.

We are beyond ****ed without Lu in the playoffs.

Raph12
02-04-2012, 04:25 PM
Chronz doin' work... Thanks for filling in while I was out lol.

Corey
02-04-2012, 05:22 PM
....Scalabrine made Deng

kozelkid
02-05-2012, 03:05 AM
Chronz doin' work... Thanks for filling in while I was out lol.

What exactly would you have "filled in"? Sorry, I think fans who have watched Deng for his whole career, know him his play, his tendencies and his development quite a bit more than you and your likely 3 minute check of his career on http://www.basketball-reference.com/

sargon21
02-05-2012, 03:42 AM
Raph acting like he does 'work'... LOL

kozelkid
02-05-2012, 04:03 AM
No kidding.

Raph, you're not a bad poster and the fact that you can at least analyze the most basic APBR metrics puts you well above 90% of the turds that post here. However, don't act like you would have brought near the statistical insight that chronz brings or that you know more about Luol Deng than Bulls fans who watched his entire career and are just as capable at analyzing APBR metrics as you.

metsbulls1025
02-05-2012, 06:15 AM
Deng's two best individual seasons were arguably the two years prior to Rose being drafted.

So the real question is are those 2 seasons of play what Deng was going to be or were those 2 seasons just above his career averages?