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View Full Version : You're Just Sure Kobe is Clutch...Right?



shafty
02-02-2012, 08:00 AM
How much of this idea is a result of the media's agendas? 16/56 on game winners (since 2007) may suggest it's an awful lot.

http://www.keeperofthecourt.com/2012/01/17/the-clutch-phenomenon-and-the-labels-overusage/

BigBongTheory
02-02-2012, 08:12 AM
yeah, he's dominantly clutch. the goat.

jerellh528
02-02-2012, 08:21 AM
There are threads made over this topic already. No need to spam the board with more kobe hate.

shafty
02-02-2012, 08:31 AM
it's hardly kobe hate. it's about media driven misconceptions. check the article :)

jerellh528
02-02-2012, 08:44 AM
I read the whole article, there were over a dozen players mention, you just so happened to mention kobe...whatev, cant blame a guy for trying to get more thread views by putting kobe in the title. lol

shafty
02-02-2012, 08:46 AM
yeah, he's dominantly clutch. the goat.

i hope you take the time to check the stats before a comment like this man

mudvayne387
02-02-2012, 08:59 AM
Nice Grammar

"You're Kobe Just Clutch Right Ping Pong Toe Ting"

Makes my head spin ...

Reptar
02-02-2012, 08:59 AM
Lol

theheatles
02-02-2012, 09:09 AM
the media controls popular public opinion

Swift Game
02-02-2012, 09:16 AM
So what is the point of this thread? What point are you trying to make?

shafty
02-02-2012, 09:46 AM
Nice Grammar

"You're Kobe Just Clutch Right Ping Pong Toe Ting"

Makes my head spin ...

um, what? :O

DC Laker
02-02-2012, 10:07 AM
So what is the point of this thread? What point are you trying to make?

Clutch has ZERO to do with Statistics.

Steve Kerr was CLUTCH!
Robert Horry was CLUTCH!
Michael Jordan was CLUTCH!
Kobe Bryant IS Clutch!
Derek Fisher is Clutch!

Clutch has ZERO to do with any regular season game ever played. Every single one of them mean NOTHING! Clutch comes out when Championships are on the line.... (Just ASK LEBRON) and its also MORE then just the last 20 seconds!

Clutch is stepping up in the 4th quarter of a decisive play-off game, with 2-3 minutes to play, down 5-6 and NEEDING BIG TIME BASKETS or BIG DEFENSIVE STOPS!!!

Clutch is making the right pass that wins the game, Like the Kobe Alley-opps to Shaq against Sacto, or finding Horry or Fish for THEM to hit the game winner.
Kobe made the Pass to Ron Artest to hit the 3 that won the Finals against the Celtics as well...

Clutch is stepping up when it matters MOST!!! I have watched every Lakers Play-off game in my lifetime and KOBE IS CLUTCH!!!

He still misses, he still makes mistakes, just like Jordan and others.... but his OVERWHELMING Big Game performances, with everything on the line....

Spectacular!

naps
02-02-2012, 10:22 AM
Enough for the the so-called clutch...

-Kobe24-TJ19-
02-02-2012, 10:30 AM
http://www.google.ee/imgres?q=haters+gonna+hate+ape&um=1&hl=et&sa=N&biw=1280&bih=685&tbm=isch&tbnid=-B7ShE6a12WyZM:&imgrefurl=http://www.lowbird.com/user/deinemudda/view/2011/04/iruntheinternet-haters-gonna-hate-monkey-crossed-20legs-1291945299k&docid=bXmwVYFVbsozsM&imgurl=http://www.lowbird.com/data/images/2011/04/iruntheinternet-haters-gonna-hate-monkey-crossed-20legs-1291945299k.jpg&w=600&h=423&ei=6J0qT9jxA8Oa-gaRmNH3DQ&zoom=1&iact=hc&vpx=187&vpy=156&dur=476&hovh=188&hovw=267&tx=180&ty=106&sig=113704541668177139967&page=1&tbnh=141&tbnw=200&start=0&ndsp=17&ved=1t:429,r:0,s:0

shafty
02-02-2012, 10:34 AM
Clutch has ZERO to do with Statistics.

Steve Kerr was CLUTCH!
Robert Horry was CLUTCH!
Michael Jordan was CLUTCH!
Kobe Bryant IS Clutch!
Derek Fisher is Clutch!

Clutch has ZERO to do with any regular season game ever played. Every single one of them mean NOTHING! Clutch comes out when Championships are on the line.... (Just ASK LEBRON) and its also MORE then just the last 20 seconds!

Clutch is stepping up in the 4th quarter of a decisive play-off game, with 2-3 minutes to play, down 5-6 and NEEDING BIG TIME BASKETS or BIG DEFENSIVE STOPS!!!

Clutch is making the right pass that wins the game, Like the Kobe Alley-opps to Shaq against Sacto, or finding Horry or Fish for THEM to hit the game winner.
Kobe made the Pass to Ron Artest to hit the 3 that won the Finals against the Celtics as well...

Clutch is stepping up when it matters MOST!!! I have watched every Lakers Play-off game in my lifetime and KOBE IS CLUTCH!!!

He still misses, he still makes mistakes, just like Jordan and others.... but his OVERWHELMING Big Game performances, with everything on the line....

Spectacular!

DC Laker - i appreciate your enthusiasm. however, what you are saying just isn't quite correct. the notion that "clutchness" has nothing to do with the regular season is silly. do you actually believe that a player will struggle in crunchtime of the regular season and be stellar in the playoffs in clutch situations? let me guess, due to their hunger..? how about the teams that struggle to get in the playoffs in the first place - is it impossible to be "clutch" while employed by those teams? clutchness matters both in the regular season and in the playoffs.

and since you are on the subject of kobe, you may want to recheck his clutch stats in the playoffs. they are actually nothing special at all. his overall FG% in the finals, for instance, is quite low.

"and its also MORE then just the last 20 seconds! ... Clutch is stepping up in the 4th quarter of a decisive play-off game, with 2-3 minutes to play, down 5-6 and NEEDING BIG TIME BASKETS or BIG DEFENSIVE STOPS!!!"

you are right. that's why i included the statistics concerning such moments. kobe is actually fairly decent here in terms of crunchtime production, but he is not the best in any category.

benzni
02-02-2012, 10:36 AM
Thats why he is called captain clutch

DC Laker
02-02-2012, 10:49 AM
DC Laker - i appreciate your enthusiasm. however, what you are saying just isn't quite correct. the notion that "clutchness" has nothing to do with the regular season is silly. do you actually believe that a player will struggle in crunchtime of the regular season and be stellar in the playoffs in clutch situations? let me guess, due to their hunger..? how about the teams that struggle to get in the playoffs in the first place - is it impossible to be "clutch" while employed by those teams? clutchness matters both in the regular season and in the playoffs.

and since you are on the subject of kobe, you may want to recheck his clutch stats in the playoffs. they are actually nothing special at all. his overall FG% in the finals, for instance, is quite low.

"and its also MORE then just the last 20 seconds! ... Clutch is stepping up in the 4th quarter of a decisive play-off game, with 2-3 minutes to play, down 5-6 and NEEDING BIG TIME BASKETS or BIG DEFENSIVE STOPS!!!"

you are right. that's why i included the statistics concerning such moments. kobe is actually fairly decent here in terms of crunchtime production, but he is not the best in any category.

"CLUTCHNESS" Doesn't matter in teh regular season because it is NOT a Big time pressure moment.

There is something about the BIG STAGE and the REAL pressure moment that causes some to shrink and some to excell.

I will go back to Robert Horry as an example. He MAY be one of the most CLUTCH players EVER!!!
How many game winners did he hit in the regular season?
Do you even care?

There is a TOTALLY different feel, and experience knowing everything is on the line. That does not exist in the regular season.... They simply go on to the next game.

Not the same at all!

shafty
02-02-2012, 10:55 AM
"CLUTCHNESS" Doesn't matter in teh regular season because it is NOT a Big time pressure moment.

There is something about the BIG STAGE and the REAL pressure moment that causes some to shrink and some to excell.

I will go back to Robert Horry as an example. He MAY be one of the most CLUTCH players EVER!!!
How many game winners did he hit in the regular season?
Do you even care?

There is a TOTALLY different feel, and experience knowing everything is on the line. That does not exist in the regular season.... They simply go on to the next game.

Not the same at all!

i think you should really think about what you are saying. no one is claiming that the playoffs do not provide more pressure. rather, there is a differential in pressure between the playoffs and the regular season. regardless of that disparity, however large you believe it may be (it's not as big as you claim), to say that regular season stats hold no meaning is ridiculous.

to utter such a thing is to essentially say that teams don't care about winning or losing during the regular season.

Testaverde16
02-02-2012, 10:56 AM
we do this thread every month... bottom line is that Kobe is that advanced stats arent kind to kobe... no one cares though, he is still great and most of the nba would want the ball in his hands over anyone elses with the game on the line.

the more important topic continues to be the lack of a post minimum for people starting threads...

shafty
02-02-2012, 11:00 AM
we do this thread every month... bottom line is that Kobe is that advanced stats arent kind to kobe... no one cares though, he is still great and most of the nba would want the ball in his hands over anyone elses with the game on the line.

the more important topic continues to be the lack of a post minimum for people starting threads...

advanced stats, you say? like field goal percentage?

you can come up with a better excuse than that :)

and tbh, it doesn't matter if the stat is "advanced" or not. if statistics are used correctly, they tell you exactly what you need to know. in this case where we are determining "clutchness", game-winning FG%, crunchtime production, etc. paint a perfect picture.

champ101695
02-02-2012, 11:09 AM
its not all about the last shot. he is clutch because he scores a lot with not much time left.

shafty
02-02-2012, 11:14 AM
its not all about the last shot. he is clutch because he scores a lot with not much time left.

check the stats... they are provided. while kobe is a good scorer in crunchtime, he is not the best. furthermore, his crunchtime assists, reb, FG%, etc. are nowhere near the top of the league

Rentzias
02-02-2012, 11:18 AM
The discussion in this thread would've been more educational and relevant to the article if you hadn't baited people with the Kobe-knocking thread title.

That said, yes, it's clearly a media agenda. The definitions of clutch, even at 82games.com, are arbitrary as hell. If a players scores 30 points in the final five minutes of a close Finals game, but turns the ball over or airballs in the last two possessions, or bricks two FTs when he needs one to tie, what does that say?

BigCityofDreams
02-02-2012, 11:26 AM
So what is the point of this thread? What point are you trying to make?

Kobe is not as clutch as the media makes him out to be.

Kashmir13579
02-02-2012, 11:37 AM
This is already acknowledged by those who want to acknowledge it.

shafty
02-02-2012, 11:40 AM
The discussion in this thread would've been more educational and relevant to the article if you hadn't baited people with the Kobe-knocking thread title.

ah, the discussion is quite relevant to the article. kobe is large part of the article, so highlighting him is definitely warranted.


That said, yes, it's clearly a media agenda. The definitions of clutch, even at 82games.com, are arbitrary as hell. If a players scores 30 points in the final five minutes of a close Finals game, but turns the ball over or airballs in the last two possessions, or bricks two FTs when he needs one to tie, what does that say?

the definitions of clutch at 82.games are "arbitrary as hell"? i am interested in hearing hear how you would define "clutchness". i think it's pretty straight forward and 100% reasonable. the reason that there are different categories is to show if there's any difference between how people perform in the last few minutes compared to the last shot, compared to their FT% when the game is on the line, compared to how willing they are to pass... it's all important to the discussion.

so, considering your hypothetical situation, if that person performs that way once it isn't particularly telling. if they do it all the time, and the statistics suggest so, it means exactly what you'd think - they are good when the game is close, but during the last few plays, they are bound to crumble.

ghettosean
02-02-2012, 11:40 AM
Clutch has ZERO to do with Statistics.

Steve Kerr was CLUTCH!
Robert Horry was CLUTCH!
Michael Jordan was CLUTCH!
Kobe Bryant IS Clutch!
Derek Fisher is Clutch!

Clutch has ZERO to do with any regular season game ever played. Every single one of them mean NOTHING! Clutch comes out when Championships are on the line.... (Just ASK LEBRON) and its also MORE then just the last 20 seconds!

Clutch is stepping up in the 4th quarter of a decisive play-off game, with 2-3 minutes to play, down 5-6 and NEEDING BIG TIME BASKETS or BIG DEFENSIVE STOPS!!!

Clutch is making the right pass that wins the game, Like the Kobe Alley-opps to Shaq against Sacto, or finding Horry or Fish for THEM to hit the game winner.
Kobe made the Pass to Ron Artest to hit the 3 that won the Finals against the Celtics as well...

Clutch is stepping up when it matters MOST!!! I have watched every Lakers Play-off game in my lifetime and KOBE IS CLUTCH!!!

He still misses, he still makes mistakes, just like Jordan and others.... but his OVERWHELMING Big Game performances, with everything on the line....

Spectacular!
This...

Too many people place so much emphasis on numbers now a days. If Kobe misses a game winning shot against the timberwolves or the raptors in the regular season who cares especially if it's a meaningless game. In the post season is where it counts and Kobe has rings and finals MVP's to back up his clutchness and show that when the money is on the line he has what it takes.

fouman22
02-02-2012, 11:41 AM
Clearly the person who made this thread hates Kobe and hasn't watched a basketball game in their life. Stats don't mean sh it. Every NBA player, coach, owner and fans who actually watch basketball will tell you that.
Why is Kobe voted "who would you want to take the last second shot", every year by every player and every gm in the league. Make that a thread.

ghettosean
02-02-2012, 11:42 AM
Oh and I hate Kobe and I'm admitting that by the way. Though I've warmed up to him a bit since the 3 douches joined together.

shafty
02-02-2012, 11:43 AM
Clearly the person who made this thread hates Kobe and hasn't watched a basketball game in their life. Stats don't mean sh it. Every NBA player, coach, owner and fans who actually watch basketball will tell you that.
Why is Kobe voted "who would you want to take the last second shot", every year by every player and every gm in the league. Make that a thread.

the answer is simple: media driven misconceptions. the fickle nature of people. the inability to accurately differentiate between the importance of reality (statistics) and aesthetics.

natelpete
02-02-2012, 11:47 AM
Paul Pierce, most clutch player in the league.

shafty
02-02-2012, 11:47 AM
This...

Too many people place so much emphasis on numbers now a days. If Kobe misses a game winning shot against the timberwolves or the raptors in the regular season who cares especially if it's a meaningless game. In the post season is where it counts and Kobe has rings and finals MVP's to back up his clutchness and show that when the money is on the line he has what it takes.

rings and finals MVPs - while the degree that he deserved those/contributed to getting those is definitely debatable, that is a different discussion from "clutchness".

just so you are aware, kobe's playoff clutchness is nothing amazing. he is, and has, been outdone by dozens and dozens of players.

OutOfTHEBLUE
02-02-2012, 11:49 AM
It's true that Kobe isn't as clutch as he is made out to be. Kobe is a high volume perimeter scorer, and he does often times take shots that are unnecessarily difficult. That's why his percentage in this writer's "game winner" criteria is so low.

That said, as someone who has watched every single game of his career, I can tell you that Kobe has been clutch in so many situations where his peers have not been. I've never seen him shy away from "the moment", and more times than I can remember he has been clutch for us when it really counted.

So yes, stats do tell a story; there's no denying it. But they don't tell the whole story.

fouman22
02-02-2012, 11:50 AM
the answer is simple: media driven misconceptions. the fickle nature of people. the inability to accurately differentiate between the importance of reality (statistics) and aesthetics.

Oh sorry, didn't know the players and gms of NBA take advice from the media. Stats are not reality, what happens in the moment is reality.

Pakman
02-02-2012, 11:51 AM
Kobe is clutch. Smh at people who rely on stats for their argument. His stats look bad because hes not afraid of the moment. Can't say the same For other
"Stars" Go back under your bridge.

ghettosean
02-02-2012, 11:54 AM
Ok so after the Shaq era what rings or finals MVP's are you debating that he didn't earn or deserve to win?

I'm very curious on your reasoning.

By the way here is the definition of clutch according to www.dictionary.com

Adjective
16. done or accomplished in a critical situation: a clutch shot that won the basketball game.
So him rising to the occasion and winning in critical situations makes him clutch. He is clearly a clutch whether you think so or not so again I ask after the Shaq era what finals MVP's or rings did he not deserve to dethrone him from being a clutch?!?

You are assuming taking the last shot makes you clutch but rising up when your team needs you to step up is also clutch and Kobe has never shyed away from those moments. You can take a clutch shot with 5 minutes left to put a dagger in the other team.

If you don't mind because I can't find it where did you obtain Kobe's game winning shot stats?

Da Knicks
02-02-2012, 11:55 AM
This has being brought up before, the media tells us who is clutch and who is isn't. Numbers are telling us the truth and people still wont believe it what else can you do? Anyways i never knew that Kobe was so average in the clutch until someone posted something similiar two years ago. Maybe someone else will be shocked this time around.

willabeast77
02-02-2012, 12:00 PM
I agree that Kobe isnt clutch as people make him out to be. He's far overrated in the clutch and this has been proven time again. Just stick with no drama hoops buddy, you'd get more people agreeing with this article with wally & co *cough*. PSD is filled with Kobe nuthuggers who come down on people's throat whenever a negative kobe thread comes up...Typical homerism.

ghettosean
02-02-2012, 12:04 PM
This has being brought up before, the media tells us who is clutch and who is isn't. Numbers are telling us the truth and people still wont believe it what else can you do? Anyways i never knew that Kobe was so average in the clutch until someone posted something similiar two years ago. Maybe someone else will be shocked this time around.
I agree with what you say about the media because they hype things up all the time but I have watched Kobe through his entire career as well as Micheal Jordan and Kobe is clutch.

If your not sure when Phil Jackson retired he was asked "If MJ and Kobe are on the same team and there is a last shot to win the game who do you give the ball to?"

Phil answered

"Kobe is as good as MJ in clutch" and basically went on to say it's a coin toss to who he would give the ball to.

Anyway Kobe has rings, MVPs and final MVP's not sure what else he's got to do to prove to people he is clutch but I'll let the minority here believe he is not.

Tmath
02-02-2012, 12:11 PM
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Clutch

Da Knicks
02-02-2012, 12:16 PM
I agree with what you say about the media because they hype things up all the time but I have watched Kobe through his entire career as well as Micheal Jordan and Kobe is clutch.

If your not sure when Phil Jackson retired he was asked "If MJ and Kobe are on the same team and there is a last shot to win the game who do you give the ball to?"

Phil answered

"Kobe is as good as MJ in clutch" and basically went on to say it's a coin toss to who he would give the ball to.

Anyway Kobe has rings, MVPs and final MVP's not sure what else he's got to do to prove to people he is clutch but I'll let the minority here believe he is not.

lol what was Phil supposed to say? If you have kids and i asked you which one you liked better what would you say? Kobe is and has being a phenom throughout his career, i just think the op was shocked just like most of us are when we see the numbers and realize that the media makes us remember the makes only and deletes the misses. Kobe is a very good player but is overrated in the word "clutch". Mvp and rings are nice but you need a team to achieve any of those awards no matter how good you are as an indivisual.

2-ONE-5
02-02-2012, 12:18 PM
that 16 is more the most

KingPosey
02-02-2012, 12:22 PM
Kobe is clutch, thread over.

ghettosean
02-02-2012, 12:51 PM
lol what was Phil supposed to say? If you have kids and i asked you which one you liked better what would you say? Kobe is and has being a phenom throughout his career, i just think the op was shocked just like most of us are when we see the numbers and realize that the media makes us remember the makes only and deletes the misses. Kobe is a very good player but is overrated in the word "clutch". Mvp and rings are nice but you need a team to achieve any of those awards no matter how good you are as an indivisual.
Agreed Phil couldn't say much else in that situation but as far as the shots missed that were game winners I wouldn't mind knowing how relevant or not these games really were before we start saying he wasn't clutch. Finals MVPs and Rings shows me he was there when it counted is all I'm saying I guess.

nysportsfan02
02-02-2012, 01:06 PM
Clutch isn't just about heaving up a prayer with <5 seconds left. Most of the time it's even luck.

Clutch IMO is a guy stepping on in the 4th to bail out his cast. Coming through with 2 mins or less to go and really leading the team. GW shots are BS.

To start a 4th quarter in a close game, there is no player i'd rather have than Kobe. Maybe Wade, but Kobe is my choice.

L@ker4Life
02-02-2012, 01:26 PM
Clutch has ZERO to do with Statistics.

Steve Kerr was CLUTCH!
Robert Horry was CLUTCH!
Michael Jordan was CLUTCH!
Kobe Bryant IS Clutch!
Derek Fisher is Clutch!

Clutch has ZERO to do with any regular season game ever played. Every single one of them mean NOTHING! Clutch comes out when Championships are on the line.... (Just ASK LEBRON) and its also MORE then just the last 20 seconds!

Clutch is stepping up in the 4th quarter of a decisive play-off game, with 2-3 minutes to play, down 5-6 and NEEDING BIG TIME BASKETS or BIG DEFENSIVE STOPS!!!

Clutch is making the right pass that wins the game, Like the Kobe Alley-opps to Shaq against Sacto, or finding Horry or Fish for THEM to hit the game winner.
Kobe made the Pass to Ron Artest to hit the 3 that won the Finals against the Celtics as well...

Clutch is stepping up when it matters MOST!!! I have watched every Lakers Play-off game in my lifetime and KOBE IS CLUTCH!!!

He still misses, he still makes mistakes, just like Jordan and others.... but his OVERWHELMING Big Game performances, with everything on the line....

Spectacular!

^^this

KB-Pau-DH2012
02-02-2012, 01:29 PM
This is what the 3rd exact same thread this season?

nickdymez
02-02-2012, 01:43 PM
The op hates kobe, he should fit in here just fine!

Sactown
02-02-2012, 01:43 PM
"You're welcome" KobeSystem.. enough said

LAKobeBryant
02-02-2012, 01:52 PM
clutch doenst mean game winner. he's hit many more game tieing or taking the lead with under 2minute left and those are clutch shots too

fresh prince
02-02-2012, 02:24 PM
It's true that Kobe isn't as clutch as he is made out to be. Kobe is a high volume perimeter scorer, and he does often times take shots that are unnecessarily difficult. That's why his percentage in this writer's "game winner" criteria is so low.

That said, as someone who has watched every single game of his career, I can tell you that Kobe has been clutch in so many situations where his peers have not been. I've never seen him shy away from "the moment", and more times than I can remember he has been clutch for us when it really counted.

So yes, stats do tell a story; there's no denying it. But they don't tell the whole story.

This is spot on.... Kobe isn't typically the most efficient player but having watch the dude his whole career he is easily the most clutch player Ive ever seen when the game is on the line...especially in his prime when his defense was still top notch.

Whether it has meant getting the defensive stop forcing a turnover or grabbing an offense board or of course knocking down the shot. Kobe can be counted on to come through more times that not. On top of that there are still stats and moments like these that back up the whole clutch perception.

* 2009-2010 : Hit six game-winning FG, most of any player in a single season over the last 10 years (FGM in last 10 seconds of 4th quarter or overtime)

* Dec. 27, 1999: Lakers 108 - Mavericks 106 (game-winning FTs w/ 8.6 secs)
May 09, 1999: Lakers 101 - Rockets 100 (Playoffs, game-winning FTs w/ 5.3 secs)
May 10, 2000: Lakers 97 - Phoenix 96 (PO, jumper over Jason Kidd w/ 2.6 secs)
Feb. 07, 2001: Lakers 85 - Phoenix 83 (jumper over Shawn Marion w/ 2.7 sec)
Feb. 13, 2001: Lakers 113 - Nets 110 (OT layup/and-1 w/ 4.8 secs)
Jan. 02, 2002: Lakers 87 - Nuggets 86 (off-reb and jumper w/ 55 secs)
Feb. 22, 2002: Lakers 96 - Hornets 94 (buzzer-beater, jumper over George Lynch)
May 12, 2002: Lakers 87 - Spurs 85 (Playoffs, off-reb and put-back w/ 5.1 secs)
Dec. 06, 2002: Lakers 105 - Mavericks 103 (turn-around jumper w/ 8 secs)
April 04, 2003: Lakers 102 - Grizzlies 101 (buzzer beater, jumper over Shane Battier)
April 06, 2003: Lakers 115 - Suns 113 (OT, game-tying jumper for OT, jumper over Shawn Marion w/ 28.6 sec)
Dec. 19, 2003: Lakers 101 - Nuggets 99 (buzzer-beater, fade-away over Jon Barry)
Mar. 21, 2004: Lakers 104 - Bucks 103 (OT jumper over Keith Van Horn w/ 25.1 sec)
April 14, 2004: Lakers 105 - Blazers 104 (OT, game-tying 3-pointer for OT, fall-away 3-pointer buzzer-beater)
Mar. 12, 2005: Lakers 117 - Bobcats 116 (jumper over Keith Bogans w/ 0.9 secs)
Nov. 02, 2005: Lakers 99 - Nuggets 97 (OT jumper over Ed Najera w/ 0.6 secs)
Dec. 04, 2005: Lakers 99 - Bobcats 98 (game-winning FTs w/ 7 secs)
Jan. 12, 2006: Lakers 99 - Cavaliers 98 (jumper over LeBron James w/ 8.6 secs)
April 30, 2006: Lakers 99 - Suns 98 (PO, OT, game-tying tear-drop for OT, buzzer-beater jumper over Boris Diaw)
Jan. 14, 2008: Lakers 123 - Sonics 121 (OT jumper over Jeff Green w/ 4.3 secs)
Jan. 09, 2009: Lakers 121 - Pacers 119 (jumper over Jarrett Jack w/ 3 secs)
Dec. 04, 2009: Lakers 108 - Heat 107 (buzzer-beater, 3-pointer over Dwyane Wade)
Dec. 16, 2009: Lakers 107 - Bucks 106 (OT buzzer-beater, jumper over Charlie Bell)
Jan. 01, 2010: Lakers 109 - Kings 108 (buzzer-beater, 3-pointer)
Jan. 31, 2010: Lakers 90 - Celtics 89 (jumper over Ray Allen w/ 7.3 secs)
Feb. 23, 2010: Lakers 99 - Grizzlies 98 (3-pointer over Rudy Gay w/ 4.3 secs)
Mar. 09, 2010: Lakers 109 - Raptors 107 (fade-away jumper over Antoine Wright w/ 1.9 secs)

27 in total.. Jordan had 28 and he was pretty "clutch".

"Eventual Game Winners"

Nov. 16, 2000: Lakers 112 - Kings 110 (OT, game-tying 3-pointer for OT, jumper over Divac w/ 24 secs)
*Kings intentially foul Bryant w/ 4 secs, +2FTs
June 14, 2000: Lakers 120 - Pacers 118 (NBA Finals, OT off-reb and put-back w/ 5.9 secs)
*Technical foul called against Fox w/ 5.9 secs, +FT
Mar. 24, 2002: Lakers 97 - Kings 96 (jumper over Christie w/ 36 secs)
*Webber jump-hook w/ 29 secs
Dec. 22, 2002: Lakers 109 - Raptors 107 (layup over Peterson w/ 33.2 secs)
*Raptors intentially foul Horry w/ 8.5 secs, +FT
May 11, 2003: Lakers 99 - Spurs 95 (PO, FT w/ 48 secs)
*Spurs intentially foul Bryant (twice) w/ 14.2 secs, +3FTs
Feb. 17, 2004: Lakers 89 - Blazers 86 (left-handed layup w/ 31.8 secs)
*Blazers intentially foul Bryant w/ 7 secs, +FT
Mar. 03, 2004: Lakers 96 - Rockets 93 (jumper over Yao w/ 32 secs)
*Rockets intentially foul Fisher w/ 9.8 secs, +2FTs
April 25, 2004: Lakers 92 - Rockets 88 (PO, OT layup/and-1 over Mobley /w 40 secs)
*Rockets intentially foul Malone w/ 6 secs, +FT
Jan. 07, 2006: Lakers 112 - Clippers 109 (tear-drop over Brand w/ 11 secs)
*Parker fastbreak-dunk w/ 4.4 secs
May 21, 2008: Lakers 89 - Spurs 85 (PO, jumper w/ 23.9 secs)
*Spurs intentionally foul Vujacic w/ 7 secs, +2FTs
Jan. 13, 2009: Lakers 105 - Rockets 100 (3-pointer over Battier w/ 27 secs)
*Rockets intentially foul Gasol (twice) w/ 7 secs, +3FTs
Jan. 13, 2010: Lakers 100 - Mavericks 95 (jumper over Howard w/ 28 secs)
*Mavericks intentionally foul Farmar w/ 5 secs, +3FTs

Its a lot to read for sure but its the moments like these more so than the stats explain why Kobe is considered clutch. This list also doesn't account for the intangibles and the times he completely takes over down the stretch but provide more than enough arguments for why people are sure Kobe is clutch.

lakerboy
02-02-2012, 02:41 PM
It really depends on your definition of clutch. For you, clutch is scoring and doing well in ther regular season and the playoffs. It's good that you have statistics, maybe Kobe will not be clutch in your definition of clutch.

For many, clutch is associated to winning games and winning champions, thus guys like Magic, Bird, Kobe and MJ are always going to be associated with the word clutch. To most people, you will look funny if you say Pierce or Lebron or Wade or Gilbert Arenas is more clutch than Kobe.

Clutch for most people is when you take your team to the next level. It is stepping up in the big stage. Take note of the word, BIG STAGE. Regular season is not a big stage. The big stage is the playoffs and the championship. That is why Dirk Nowitzki was considered by many to be the most clutch last year and Lebron the total choke. It's winning and dominating in the big stage.

Let's end it with an MJ GOAT Quote

"I've missed more than 9000 shots in my career. I've lost almost 300 games. 26 times, I've been trusted to take the game winning shot and missed. I've failed over and over and over again in my life. And that is why I succeed."

benzni
02-02-2012, 02:48 PM
<Insert the HoopsProphet comment here>

DoubleDragon
02-02-2012, 02:49 PM
How much of this idea is a result of the media's agendas? 16/56 on game winners (since 2007) may suggest it's an awful lot.

http://www.keeperofthecourt.com/2012/01/17/the-clutch-phenomenon-and-the-labels-overusage/

this is a tired topic.
Get on with your life.

Chronz
02-02-2012, 02:54 PM
Its a lot to read for sure but its the moments like these more so than the stats explain why Kobe is considered clutch. This list also doesn't account for the intangibles and the times he completely takes over down the stretch but provide more than enough arguments for why people are sure Kobe is clutch.

But your only showing the makes, how is that more than the stats that show both?

fresh prince
02-02-2012, 02:57 PM
I never said only the makes are important.. The makes are why people consider him clutch.

Thats how life works..... Whether its right or not is up for debate. Stats can always be manipulated to prove a point. If you change the criteria for clutch to Field Goals made to either tie , take the lead or pull the team within one possession in the last 2 minutes then the numbers look drastically different. Are those moments not clutch?

What is undisputed and not debatable is that Kobe Bryant has made all those plays listed above. ALL WERE CLUTCH and the volume of game winners is more than anyone not named Michael Jordan.

Game Winners:

Jordan: 28
Kobe: 27

Championships:
Jordan: 6
Kobe: 5

He's on the cusp hate it or love it.

Chronz
02-02-2012, 02:58 PM
Clutch for most people is when you take your team to the next level. It is stepping up in the big stage. Take note of the word, BIG STAGE. Regular season is not a big stage. The big stage is the playoffs and the championship. That is why Dirk Nowitzki was considered by many to be the most clutch last year and Lebron the total choke. It's winning and dominating in the big stage.

So only 1 player per year is deemed clutch? How does this work, like was Kobe not considered clutch anymore since he choked long before the Finals? Also how many game winners has Kobe had and attempted in the Finals anyways?


Let's end it with an MJ GOAT Quote

"I've missed more than 9000 shots in my career. I've lost almost 300 games. 26 times, I've been trusted to take the game winning shot and missed. I've failed over and over and over again in my life. And that is why I succeed."
Ive always wondered about this quote, do you think its legit? If so that means MJ has a 50% success rate in clutch shot situations, to go with all the assists hes accrued, basically that means hes like twice as clutch as Kobe right.

sixer04fan
02-02-2012, 03:01 PM
Okay shafty... If you don't want Kobe on your team with the game on the line then I'll sure as hell take him.

Chronz
02-02-2012, 03:02 PM
I never said only the makes are important.. The makes are why people consider him clutch.

Thats how life works..... Whether its right or not is up for debate
So no matter how many times a player misses a game winning shot, you will consider them clutch so long as they keep chucking and eventually hit a few? Thats not clutch and anyone who tries to pass that argument is going to be hit in nose hard for their lack of analysis.

If I focus only on the makes, then Shaq is a great FT shooter, one of the greatest of all time in fact. Look at all the FT's hes made in his career, dont focus on the misses.

fresh prince
02-02-2012, 03:09 PM
There's no point in arguing back and forth.

For you Kobe is an un-clutch chucker who is bound to hit a few big shots because he takes so many.

To me he is clutch.

We can both dig up stats to argue our points to the contrary until we are blue in the face. Thats what statistics are for. But ultimately perception is reality and you're in the minority.

Chronz
02-02-2012, 03:20 PM
There's no point in arguing back and forth.

For you Kobe is an un-clutch chucker who is bound to hit a few big shots because he takes so many.

To me he is clutch.

We can both dig up stats to argue our points to the contrary until we are blue in the face. Thats what statistics are for. But ultimately perception is reality and you're in the minority.
If you say so, but the majority of people dont analyze games so what would I care? The only opinion I care to listen to is one of rationale thought.

And I never said Kobe was un-clutch, thats just your homerism kicking in. If you knew me, you know my stance on clutch is that its such a subjective topic that I dont see the point in arguing over it. When people do try to define it they end up being displeased with the results so they jump to vague definitions instead, wherein only the makes are deemed "most important" than the data that captures both makes/misses.

And I dont think we can both dig up stats, there isnt much wiggle room here.

lakerboy
02-02-2012, 03:31 PM
So only 1 player per year is deemed clutch? How does this work, like was Kobe not considered clutch anymore since he choked long before the Finals? Also how many game winners has Kobe had and attempted in the Finals anyways?


Ive always wondered about this quote, do you think its legit? If so that means MJ has a 50% success rate in clutch shot situations, to go with all the assists hes accrued, basically that means hes like twice as clutch as Kobe right.

Clutchness is highly subjective. The problem is people are trying to classify the word into certain categories and qualifications. Clutchness is not entirely quantifiable. It's already hard enough to debate what "big games" or "big moments" are. As I pointed out, the person who started the thread believes it should include regular season games. Most people think otherwise.

I said Dirk was the most clutch last year, not the only clutch player. There were many good clutch players last year: Dirk, Rose, KD, and to a certain degree, even Bosh Wade or Lebron (only if he didn't choke so much)

In broader terms, I define clutch as the ability to step up in big games. Like I said, very subjective. To each his own.

LAKERMANIA
02-02-2012, 03:40 PM
I define clutch as the ability to score very well in the final quarter both in season and playoffs (the final quarter since that is where the game ends and that is where you expect someone who is clutch to do well) and even though I'm not sure if this stat is season or playoffs, at 82games.com it shows Kobe averages the most ppg in the final quarter..

http://82games.com/random26.htm

king4day
02-02-2012, 03:44 PM
Kobe's playoff performances speak for themselves. he's clutch even if the stat's don't seem to point to it.

nickdymez
02-02-2012, 03:51 PM
There's no point in arguing back and forth.

For you Kobe is an un-clutch chucker who is bound to hit a few big shots because he takes so many.

To me he is clutch.

We can both dig up stats to argue our points to the contrary until we are blue in the face. Thats what statistics are for. But ultimately perception is reality and you're in the minority.

Chronz hates Kobe so much its ridiculous.

MickeyMgl
02-02-2012, 03:56 PM
How much of this idea is a result of the media's agendas?
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I know what I see. He's clutch.

rickshaw
02-02-2012, 04:00 PM
Chronz hates Kobe so much its ridiculous.

Have you ever contributed anything of any value to any discussion?

DC Laker
02-02-2012, 04:17 PM
If there was ever a line to END THIS DEBATE IT WOULD BE THIS!!!

Begining of Last year 166 Current NBA Players were asked who they would want to take the Last Shot.

74% PICKED KOBE BRYANT!!!
in second place 8% PICKED DURANT!!!

I don't trust ANY of you as much as I trust the opinion of the guys ON THE FLOOR, who have seen Kobe stick a dagger in games when it matters....

Discussion OVER!!!

THIS WAS NOT A POLL OF ESPN Talking Heads, announcers, media members or Laker Fans... CURRENT PLAYERS!!!

LINK:
http://bloguin.com/crossoverchronicles/2011-articles/april/74-of-nba-players-polled-want-kobe-taking-last-shot.html

Chronz
02-02-2012, 04:19 PM
Chronz hates Kobe so much its ridiculous.

Notice how he hasnt responded to the post, he was wrong about my stance on Kobes clutchness and will have nothing to prove otherwise.

Look, I know its easy to deflect any criticism away as hate, but your really only showing your lack of conviction in your beliefs when you do so. You have to actually have evidence that I hate Kobe. I dont hate Kobe, your just as wrong as your friend was when he thought I was saying Kobe wasnt clutch.

Chronz
02-02-2012, 04:20 PM
If there was ever a line to END THIS DEBATE IT WOULD BE THIS!!!

Begining of Last year 166 [B]Current NBA Players were asked

LOL I stopped reading right here

Heediot
02-02-2012, 04:25 PM
aN ESPN ARTICLE ON cP3 THAT WAS UP RECENTLY STATED THAT UNDER 24 SECONDS MELO HAS THE HIGHEST FG% FOLLOWED BY pAUL.

Too lazy to fix that previous statement.

"Not only did the Clippers find the best point guard available this offseason, but they also may have found the best clutch scorer. Since the 1996-97 season, only Carmelo Anthony has shot a higher field goal percentage in the final 24 seconds of games tied or within two points (minimum 30 attempts)."

http://espn.go.com/los-angeles/nba/story/_/id/7531298/los-angeles-clippers-chris-paul-makes-everyone-better

The thing about Kobe is his clutch shots are all over the highlights on espn and other sports networks, but no one remembers all the times he misses. His made clutch shots are sensationalized by the media, he can create his shot under difficult circumstances and duress but his accuracy is over-stated.

In terms of his mental game in big moments Kobe is elite in that regard.

nickdymez
02-02-2012, 04:38 PM
Have you ever contributed anything of any value to any discussion?

Nope

beliges
02-02-2012, 04:40 PM
Kobe is considered by every single knowledgeable NBA fan or personell as one of the most clutch players to ever play the game of basketball. Clutch is NOT just game winning buckets. It is SO much more than that. He is the epitome of his generation's clutch player. Much like MJ was during his era. Respect greatness. Anyone that leads a team to 5 titles is gonna be a beast during clutch time.

nickdymez
02-02-2012, 04:44 PM
Notice how he hasnt responded to the post, he was wrong about my stance on Kobes clutchness and will have nothing to prove otherwise.

Look, I know its easy to deflect any criticism away as hate, but your really only showing your lack of conviction in your beliefs when you do so. You have to actually have evidence that I hate Kobe. I dont hate Kobe, your just as wrong as your friend was when he thought I was saying Kobe wasnt clutch.

lol.. I watch every game Kobe plays because im a Lakers fan. A LAKERS FAN, not a Kobe Bryant fan. The man does a pretty good job to me. Im not gonna argue with you because you believe that numbers are the only way to gauge a players production. Its pointless talking to you or even attempting to have a decent discussion with you because your a pompous know-it-all. Id much rather give you and a few more posters like you nonchalant, passive aggressive answer. Its better that way

dh144498
02-02-2012, 05:06 PM
unless you call Phil Jackson a liar. Pretty sure the coach of both MJ and KOBE during their title runs said himself: Kobe is as just as clutch as MJ.

ghettosean
02-02-2012, 05:09 PM
lol.. I watch every game Kobe plays because im a Lakers fan. A LAKERS FAN, not a Kobe Bryant fan. The man does a pretty good job to me. Im not gonna argue with you because you believe that numbers are the only way to gauge a players production. Its pointless talking to you or even attempting to have a decent discussion with you because your a pompous know-it-all. Id much rather give you and a few more posters like you nonchalant, passive aggressive answer. Its better that way
I'll 2nd the pompous know it all part on Chronz... I put up a dictionary definition of the word clutch and he says ppl have vague definitions of what clutch means in here... All i have to say is :facepalm:

nickdymez
02-02-2012, 06:11 PM
I'll 2nd the pompous know it all part on Chronz... I put up a dictionary definition of the word clutch and he says ppl have vague definitions of what clutch means in here... All i have to say is :facepalm:

People here will try and make you believe what they want you to believe. We can say "Kobe has 5 rings". You'll get someone on here that will argue that just because they hate Kobe. Then when people say stuff like "I think Kobe is Clutch". They call you a Kobe lover and tell you that they will not listen to anything else you have to say about him. lol.. Its sad.. Even though a majority of Basketball experts, Coaches, players, former players, dogs, cats, etc say he's clutch and they don't want him with the ball in his hands at the end of games.

Heediot
02-02-2012, 06:27 PM
People here will try and make you believe what they want you to believe. We can say "Kobe has 5 rings". You'll get someone on here that will argue that just because they hate Kobe. Then when people say stuff like "I think Kobe is Clutch". They call you a Kobe lover and tell you that they will not listen to anything else you have to say about him. lol.. Its sad.. Even though a majority of Basketball experts, Coaches, players, former players, dogs, cats, etc say he's clutch and they don't want him with the ball in his hands at the end of games.

I think most people would agree that Kobe has heart and the psychological make-up exemplified in a elite clutch player, no doubt. On the other hand, many people forget that he is fallible and his misses in the clutch are understated.

nickdymez
02-02-2012, 06:33 PM
I think most people would agree that Kobe has heart and the psychological make-up exemplified in a elite clutch player, no doubt. On the other hand, many people forget that he is fallible and his misses in the clutch are understated.

Yea, but no one on earth is gonna make EVERY shot they attemp in a clutch situation. I understand that Kobe cant win em all, but i also am aware that he wins a lot of em.

JohnnyOutcast
02-02-2012, 06:33 PM
I swear, this is like the 1000000000th time I've seen a "Kobe is not really clutch even though everyone thinks he is" article. He wouldn't have 5 championships and be considered one of the greatest players of all time if he wasn't.

The sky is blue, grass is green, and Kobe is clutch.....................

Heediot
02-02-2012, 06:44 PM
Yea, but no one on earth is gonna make EVERY shot they attemp in a clutch situation. I understand that Kobe cant win em all, but i also am aware that he wins a lot of em.

Like I said, he has the mental toughness and fortitude to make it happen when it matters most. In my opinion people recognize this on a sub-conscious level (players, coaches, fans, media) and filter out his inaccuracy while unaware of doing so. When others come through with statistics to counter, defenders of Kobe point to the subjective evidence that his proof are with the coaches, players, fans, etc. It's a weird circular thing lol.

CB29
02-02-2012, 07:04 PM
You also gotta realize that he played 3-4 years with extremely mediocre teammates. In those years he was really selfish with the ball but realistically you're not gonna draw up a game winner for kwame or smush Parker. He was double and triple teamed on many of those plays. Look up court cuts on YouTube. Check out Kobe, lebron and wade. Check who has the most game winners in their highlights. Final point: on the grand stage Kobe Bryant has always come up big.

lakersfan01
02-02-2012, 07:16 PM
I've been saying this for years. 56 field goal attempts / 1 assist ratio... always pisses me off when he launches a horrible attempt with 2 or 3 of his teammates wide open. I call it "hero mode" or "channeling his inner Brett Favre"... hence his nickname "Brett Bryant".

The Final Boss
02-02-2012, 07:36 PM
the media controls popular public opinion. Where do you think I got this lame *** "Heatles" moniker?

Fixed.

Rentzias
02-02-2012, 07:40 PM
ah, the discussion is quite relevant to the article. kobe is large part of the article, so highlighting him is definitely warranted.
Just as much mention of LeBron.


the definitions of clutch at 82.games are "arbitrary as hell"? i am interested in hearing hear how you would define "clutchness". i think it's pretty straight forward and 100% reasonable. the reason that there are different categories is to show if there's any difference between how people perform in the last few minutes compared to the last shot, compared to their FT% when the game is on the line, compared to how willing they are to pass... it's all important to the discussion.
I can't define clutchness, because it's basically an intangible. 82games defines it as: "4th quarter or overtime, less than 5 minutes left, neither team ahead by more than 5 points"

Why five minutes, why five points? I'd be glad to take back my statement if there's justification for it. Now stats of the actual percentage of game-winning attempts actually made, factoring in number of attempts? A little bit closer, but still not close to accurate.


so, considering your hypothetical situation, if that person performs that way once it isn't particularly telling. if they do it all the time, and the statistics suggest so, it means exactly what you'd think - they are good when the game is close, but during the last few plays, they are bound to crumble.
So the 82games definition doesn't fit with you as well. They measure last five minutes, you measure "the last few plays," which could take place in a 9 second span.

MickeyMgl
02-02-2012, 07:48 PM
So no matter how many times a player misses a game winning shot, you will consider them clutch so long as they keep chucking and eventually hit a few? Thats not clutch and anyone who tries to pass that argument is going to be hit in nose hard for their lack of analysis.

If I focus only on the makes, then Shaq is a great FT shooter, one of the greatest of all time in fact. Look at all the FT's hes made in his career, dont focus on the misses.

Most of the people Kobe is compared to don't miss as many clutch shots because they can't get a good shot. They pass it off instead. Half the battle in those situations is GETTING a makeable shot. FG% tells *a* story, but it doesn't tell *the* story. Shot selection is not a priority in the final possession with the clock running out. Kobe from 25 feet >>>>>>>> Kwame from 8 feet.

MTar786
02-02-2012, 08:03 PM
kobe misses game winning 3 against jazz in reg season sleeper game (not an important game at all)

kobe misses game winner against bulls 1st game of season. (consider how unimportant that game was)

kobe hits 3 that takes lakers into OT against blazers and also hits the game winning 3. (last game of 04 season. if lakers lost that then they would have lost the pacific division to the kings and would have also went down one seed)

kobe hits a floater with a few seconds to go to tie the game then hits the game winner in game 4 of the 06 playoffs to put lakers up 3-1 against the suns

kobe hits game tying buzzer beating 3 that takes lakers into OT which they end up winning in game 2 of 04 finals tying up the series 1-1

kobe hits game winner against boston in boston after getting killed in the finals (imagine how important that was for the lakers morale, especially when chances were likely the 09 finals were going to be the 08 finals rematch)

^^^
this is where ur thread fails

beliges
02-02-2012, 08:09 PM
LOL I stopped reading right here

Not to mention coaches and GMs all chose Kobe. Lets put it this way, you lead your team to 5 titles, you HAVE to be clutch or else its impossible to do. Its funny how you want to define clutch as Last Second Shot. There is SOOOOO much more to clutchness than that. Kobe's done it all. There is a reason he is considered the most clutch player of his generation and one of the greatest clutch performers of all time. Your opinion of him will not change that ideology.

MTar786
02-02-2012, 08:09 PM
Just as much mention of LeBron.


I can't define clutchness, because it's basically an intangible. 82games defines it as: "4th quarter or overtime, less than 5 minutes left, neither team ahead by more than 5 points"

Why five minutes, why five points? I'd be glad to take back my statement if there's justification for it. Now stats of the actual percentage of game-winning attempts actually made, factoring in number of attempts? A little bit closer, but still not close to accurate.


So the 82games definition doesn't fit with you as well. They measure last five minutes, you measure "the last few plays," which could take place in a 9 second span.

you are a very wise man. you have completely earned my respect on psd from now on just because of what i put in bold.

I hate when people define clutchness or anything based on how another sports site defines it.. especially when every human being is going to have their own bias when making. forexample. lets say he decided 6 point and 6 minutes. and after his math he realize kobe was a god lol. and he is not a fan of kobe.. but more of a lebron fan. sports is full of bias.. and that is why the most accurate opinion comes from eyes that are not biased
an impartial opinion from someone who just loves the sport.

heres a great example. i remember sports sites saying a couple years ago that lebron was wayyy more clutch than kobe. try telling that to someone today and watch them laugh in your face.

ps. I wonder what it says about derek fishers clutchness, robert horry etc..

C-Style
02-02-2012, 08:28 PM
You need to watch Kobe to know that he's clutch. If basing ur opinion off stats basically means you don't watch him play so u resort to stats to judge a player.

tr3ymill3r
02-02-2012, 09:15 PM
You're right Kobe isn't clutch, the Lakers should have let Smush Parker take those last second shots. You've solved the Lakers riddle why they never win and aren't a dynasty.

valade16
02-02-2012, 09:34 PM
Are there really people out there who don't think Kobe is clutch? :confused:

AIRMAR72
02-02-2012, 09:47 PM
So what is the point of this thread? What point are you trying to make?

point THE ARTICLE is trying to make my friend, KOBE SUCKS 16/56 lol along with his career FG% WHICH IS IN THE LOW 40% closing in 39% lol again know wonder he only has 1mvp in 17 or 16yrs that belong chris or bron who were clearly BETTER players in the 08 compare to tobe who is just about FINISH

nickdymez
02-02-2012, 10:07 PM
point THE ARTICLE is trying to make my friend, KOBE SUCKS 16/56 lol along with his career FG% WHICH IS IN THE LOW 40% closing in 39% lol again know wonder he only has 1mvp in 17 or 16yrs that belong chris or bron who were clearly BETTER players in the 08 compare to tobe who is just about FINISH

See what i mean about the posters here?

MTar786
02-02-2012, 10:17 PM
You're right Kobe isn't clutch, the Lakers should have let Smush Parker take those last second shots. You've solved the Lakers riddle why they never win and aren't a dynasty.

this

sventhedog
02-02-2012, 11:25 PM
so i wonder how lebron's doing? 0/56?

shafty
02-03-2012, 04:20 AM
i'm seeing a lot of the same comments over and over:

"there is no way to define clutch"
"there's more to the game than game-winning shots"
"all GMs want kobe taking the last second shot"

the categories that 82games.com provides do speak very well to the clutch abilities of players. if you get a steal, it is noted. if you get a game-winning assist, it is noted. if you produce well towards the end but tend to fail on the last shot specifically, it is all noted.

if someone is clutch, it will show up in the stats. kobe, for instance, has had the most talented of teams, and yet, his +/- in crunchtime is good but not great. he is a great crunchtime scorer (not the best), but not a good distributor. the list goes on. so, no, it is not all about game-winning attempt statistics. it's about the entire picture; there is a purpose for the inclusion of a variety of stats.

as far as "all GMs wanting Kobe", the comment on fickle nature of people/attraction to aesthetics answers that question, i believe.

i want to note: kobe is a great, great player. he is also, by no means, a "choker". what he is, however, is a great example of a player who's image is strengthened by the media and misconceptions.

again, if you have any questions about these things, see the article in the OP where they are explained in more detail.

thanks for reading.

DaLakerz Rulz
02-03-2012, 05:04 AM
i'm seeing a lot of the same comments over and over:

"there is no way to define clutch"
"there's more to the game than game-winning shots"
"all GMs want kobe taking the last second shot"

the categories that 82games.com provides do speak very well to the clutch abilities of players. if you get a steal, it is noted. if you get a game-winning assist, it is noted. if you produce well towards the end but tend to fail on the last shot specifically, it is all noted.

if someone is clutch, it will show up in the stats. kobe, for instance, has had the most talented of teams, and yet, his +/- in crunchtime is good but not great. he is a great crunchtime scorer (not the best), but not a good distributor. the list goes on. so, no, it is not all about game-winning attempt statistics. it's about the entire picture; there is a purpose for the inclusion of a variety of stats.

as far as "all GMs wanting Kobe", the comment on fickle nature of people/attraction to aesthetics answers that question, i believe.

i want to note: kobe is a great, great player. he is also, by no means, a "choker". what he is, however, is a great example of a player who's image is strengthened by the media and misconceptions.

again, if you have any questions about these things, see the article in the OP where they are explained in more detail.

thanks for reading.


That's all great, but why did you make this thread exactly? I am not sure how long you have been following PSD, but this topic has been beaten to death 100s of times. These Kobe threads have seriously got to stop...it may not be your intention to discredit him, but that is essentially what happens with the pointless arguing that goes on in all of these "Kobe is not as good as you think...." threads.

KB-Pau-DH2012
02-03-2012, 05:08 AM
Kobe is clutch as in...who do you want with the ball in their hands with the game on the line? The guy to make the decision to shoot or create for others.

Answer: #kobesystem


You're welcome! ;)

SportsFanatic10
02-03-2012, 05:59 AM
kobe's clutch and a great player but hes not the end all be all clutch player the media makes people think he is.

KB-Pau-DH2012
02-03-2012, 06:03 AM
kobe's clutch and a great player but hes not the end all be all clutch player the media makes people think he is.

This is true. I think he's hit so many big shots in big moments, playoff games, NBA Finals game 2 against Detroit, division and conference championship clinchers, coming back from colorado etc. type of games, young kobe doing it in the finals with shaq fouling out against INDY, 6 or 7 buzzer beaters in 2010. It's been the situations he's been in where he's done it that makes it so remarkable. That's why his end of game successes stand out so much.

And he's the ballsiest and always savoring for that last shot or just dominating the ball the last 3-4 minutes of a game.

jam
02-03-2012, 06:06 AM
I liked Jerry West's take on Kobe: he is rotten and nasty to the core. He does not care about others. He does not want to share. But when you combine this trait along with his work ethic and his very high skill level, you have one of the 10 or 12 best players to ever play the game of basketball.

If you want to compare Kobe to Jordan, Kobe will come up short. In their respective primes, I'd rather have Larry Bird take the last shot.

But there is no doubt that in terms of career accomplishments as well as in the desire to close out a game, Kobe is one of the top players. He's not no. 1, but he deserves comparison with the other greats of the game, in any era.

KB-Pau-DH2012
02-03-2012, 06:09 AM
I liked Jerry West's take on Kobe: he is rotten and nasty to the core. He does not care about others. He does not want to share. But when you combine this trait along with his work ethic and his very high skill level, you have one of the 10 or 12 best players to ever play the game of basketball.

If you want to compare Kobe to Jordan, Kobe will come up short. In their respective primes, I'd rather have Larry Bird take the last shot.

But there is no doubt that in terms of career accomplishments as well as in the desire to close out a game, Kobe is one of the top players. He's not no. 1, but he deserves comparison with the other greats of the game, in any era.

Well put sir! :clap:

jam
02-03-2012, 06:51 AM
Let's just put aside the Jordan comparison, not only for Kobe but for any other player.

Just for fun, if there really is a close parallel for Kobe's personality, it would be more like the Green Goblin in Spiderman than Michael Jordan. Kobe is a complete egomaniac; he will shoot even if four other teammates are open. He will cheat on his wife. He's an alleged rapist. He'll throw a famous teammate under the bus when he's accused and brought in for questioning.

There's little question that he's a diabolical sociopath. It's just that he's fortunate enough to be athletically gifted and focused enough to follow this gift to as far an end as he can see it.

Without this athletic ability, I'm convinced Kobe would have wound up either as a short term drug kingpin dead by his early twenties if he had been born into a poor family, or a scumbag wall street crook fleecing the life savings of retirees through pyramid and other get rich quick schemes.

There's absolutely nothing to admire or respect here. The only takeaway is the spectacle of watching a player completely and utterly unafraid not only to fail, but to make a complete fool out of himself in the process.

And through all the drama, he's picked up five championship trophies along the way.

time4change
02-03-2012, 07:31 AM
So this must mean that The Bron is more clutch right? lol

time4change
02-03-2012, 07:33 AM
Let's just put aside the Jordan comparison, not only for Kobe but for any other player.

Just for fun, if there really is a close parallel for Kobe's personality, it would be more like the Green Goblin in Spiderman than Michael Jordan. Kobe is a complete egomaniac; he will shoot even if four other teammates are open. He will cheat on his wife. He's an alleged rapist. He'll throw a famous teammate under the bus when he's accused and brought in for questioning.

There's little question that he's a diabolical sociopath. It's just that he's fortunate enough to be athletically gifted and focused enough to follow this gift to as far an end as he can see it.

Without this athletic ability, I'm convinced Kobe would have wound up either as a short term drug kingpin dead by his early twenties if he had been born into a poor family, or a scumbag wall street crook fleecing the life savings of retirees through pyramid and other get rich quick schemes.

There's absolutely nothing to admire or respect here. The only takeaway is the spectacle of watching a player completely and utterly unafraid not only to fail, but to make a complete fool out of himself in the process.

And through all the drama, he's picked up five championship trophies along the way.

Apparently you never heard or watched any of Michael Jordan before.

LakersMaster24
02-03-2012, 11:30 AM
So, every analyst, player, GM call Kobe clutch. However, since some random people on this forum say otherwise, I think it must be true that he is NOT clutch. It is amazing how some people here think they are all knowing and that everyone must accept and go with anything they say. I guess it feels good having some respect in a forum when you got none in real life.

If Kobe is not clutch then who is? You guys can find million of ways to hate on Kobe, to put him down, but I want you to know that he doesnt give a **** about what you think because he keeps winning on a regular bases. He could care less about you raging here.

Heediot
02-03-2012, 11:48 AM
I think Clutch is an attribute rather than a stat is what most people of Kobe's defenders are pointing to. In that sense I agree Kobe is clutch. I don't think he is as effective as many think. It's just easier for people remember emotionally filled moments. Kobe has had so much moments where he makes the shot that it sinks into the fan/viewers subconscious. In addition, espn add to one's emotional memory bank by hyping up what he did and people sink further into the subconscious idea that Kobe is unstoppable in the clutch. Then they filter out his poorous moments while being unaware of doing so.

Don't get me wrong, he has heart and the psychological make-up of an elite closer/clutch player but his misses are glaringly understated by the reasons mentioned above.

Heediot
02-03-2012, 11:54 AM
To add to the above this is why big business/corporations and the media can manipulate people into buying things or make them fall into an idea. That's why substance over style prevails in society, people get caught up in the emotional memory bank of the sub/unconscious and unaware of why they make decisions and react to certain things as they do.

JJ_JKidd
02-03-2012, 12:58 PM
How much of this idea is a result of the media's agendas? 16/56 on game winners (since 2007) may suggest it's an awful lot.

http://www.keeperofthecourt.com/2012/01/17/the-clutch-phenomenon-and-the-labels-overusage/

Lol Lakers are 8th in the West and still PSDs swarmed with Kobe hate lol. Smh on haters

kobelaughsatall
02-03-2012, 01:55 PM
Shafty, you do realize a thread like this is created about kobe about once a week, and it really never goes anywhere.... Mods please close... all redundant threads should be automatically deleted.... its like always the same Kobe or Lebron threads.... SOMETHING ORIGINAL PLEASE PEOPLE

LakersLockdwn
02-03-2012, 02:20 PM
i think you should really think about what you are saying. no one is claiming that the playoffs do not provide more pressure. rather, there is a differential in pressure between the playoffs and the regular season. regardless of that disparity, however large you believe it may be (it's not as big as you claim), to say that regular season stats hold no meaning is ridiculous.

to utter such a thing is to essentially say that teams don't care about winning or losing during the regular season.

i think you should check your own comments you are coming off as a HATER get off kobe's balls man

LakersLockdwn
02-03-2012, 02:21 PM
Apparently you never heard or watched any of Michael Jordan before.

or 75% of the other nba players

ghettosean
02-03-2012, 02:39 PM
Here's a definition from www.dictionary.com again.

Not sure how lots of people are arguing with an official dictionary definition but keep it on haters.

adjective
16. done or accomplished in a critical situation: a clutch shot that won the basketball game.
17. dependable in crucial situations: a clutch player.

Is Kobe dependable in crucial situations? Has he done or accomplished anything in crucial situations.

5 Rings and 2 finals MVPs would seem to support that point...

Anyone disagree?

Philly 4 Life
02-03-2012, 02:42 PM
Clutch has ZERO to do with Statistics.

Steve Kerr was CLUTCH!
Robert Horry was CLUTCH!
Michael Jordan was CLUTCH!
Kobe Bryant IS Clutch!
Derek Fisher is Clutch!

Clutch has ZERO to do with any regular season game ever played. Every single one of them mean NOTHING! Clutch comes out when Championships are on the line.... (Just ASK LEBRON) and its also MORE then just the last 20 seconds!

Clutch is stepping up in the 4th quarter of a decisive play-off game, with 2-3 minutes to play, down 5-6 and NEEDING BIG TIME BASKETS or BIG DEFENSIVE STOPS!!!

Clutch is making the right pass that wins the game, Like the Kobe Alley-opps to Shaq against Sacto, or finding Horry or Fish for THEM to hit the game winner.
Kobe made the Pass to Ron Artest to hit the 3 that won the Finals against the Celtics as well...

Clutch is stepping up when it matters MOST!!! I have watched every Lakers Play-off game in my lifetime and KOBE IS CLUTCH!!!

He still misses, he still makes mistakes, just like Jordan and others.... but his OVERWHELMING Big Game performances, with everything on the line....

Spectacular!

I Literally couldnt have put this any better myself...It is like a regular season record, it doesn't mean **** once the playoffs start, just ask memphis or san antonio, or the phillies last year, or the yankees who have only won 1 title since their last 3 peat...Clutch is defined in the POSTSEASON and BIG GAMES not game 30 or 40 of a 82 game season

Hawkeye15
02-03-2012, 03:38 PM
Why is Kobe the only one the OP listed? There were a bunch of stars listed. Whatever.

Yes, the term, "clutch" is so mis-used its incredible. The fact is, Kobe has missed exponentially more clutch shots then he has made. But fans, coaches, GM's, and the media, have selective memory, as does every human. For instance, I can't ever remember Chris Webber hitting a game winner. But I sure as hell remember the miss he had at the buzzer against my Wolves in the 2004 playoffs in game 7 that would have won it for the Kings. Selective memory. It goes for nearly all the stars out there.

Gibby23
02-03-2012, 03:57 PM
Why is Kobe the only one the OP listed? There were a bunch of stars listed. Whatever.

Yes, the term, "clutch" is so mis-used its incredible. The fact is, Kobe has missed exponentially more clutch shots then he has made. But fans, coaches, GM's, and the media, have selective memory, as does every human. For instance, I can't ever remember Chris Webber hitting a game winner. But I sure as hell remember the miss he had at the buzzer against my Wolves in the 2004 playoffs in game 7 that would have won it for the Kings. Selective memory. It goes for nearly all the stars out there.

I was at one of those games in Sac. It was the one where the Wolve won and Kings fans thought they made a bad call and started thwing the free glow sticks on the floor. I was younger so we would sneak up to the front. The only thing was that Kevin Mchale and some other guy walked in later and told us those were their seats. he laughed and took a pic.

Hawkeye15
02-03-2012, 05:31 PM
I was at one of those games in Sac. It was the one where the Wolve won and Kings fans thought they made a bad call and started thwing the free glow sticks on the floor. I was younger so we would sneak up to the front. The only thing was that Kevin Mchale and some other guy walked in later and told us those were their seats. he laughed and took a pic.

haha, great story dude. I was not young, 29 at the time, but yeah man, the point is, people only remember one or the other, not the whole body of work.

God that shot scared me. Webber was wide open. How beast did KG go in that game? He literally did everything. Greatest individual game he ever had.

Chronz
02-03-2012, 05:43 PM
lol.. I watch every game Kobe plays because im a Lakers fan. A LAKERS FAN, not a Kobe Bryant fan. The man does a pretty good job to me. Im not gonna argue with you because you believe that numbers are the only way to gauge a players production. Its pointless talking to you or even attempting to have a decent discussion with you because your a pompous know-it-all. Id much rather give you and a few more posters like you nonchalant, passive aggressive answer. Its better that way

Off topic and invalid, where did I say you didnt watch Laker games?

Chronz
02-03-2012, 05:53 PM
Not to mention coaches and GMs all chose Kobe. Lets put it this way, you lead your team to 5 titles, you HAVE to be clutch or else its impossible to do. Its funny how you want to define clutch as Last Second Shot. There is SOOOOO much more to clutchness than that. Kobe's done it all. There is a reason he is considered the most clutch player of his generation and one of the greatest clutch performers of all time. Your opinion of him will not change that ideology.
Where did I say I defined clutch as last second shots? Cmon guys, can you plz stop with the strawman arguments, they are a waste of everyones time. If you cant defend your stance without lying to yourself then find a new argument.

And I dont buy your cliche ridden argument, I never said Kobe wasnt clutch (another one of your strawman points), like Ive said a million times before, in this thread/forum, ranking "clutchness" is too subjective for me to even want to try and rank players by such a measure.

And you can believe whatever you want, but when asked to defend your opinion, if the best you got is that its the popular thought and thats why you hold it then there is nothing to discuss as it is only an opinion based on anecdotal evidence..... Point being, why would I care to change it?

Chronz
02-03-2012, 05:55 PM
Most of the people Kobe is compared to don't miss as many clutch shots because they can't get a good shot. They pass it off instead. Half the battle in those situations is GETTING a makeable shot. FG% tells *a* story, but it doesn't tell *the* story. Shot selection is not a priority in the final possession with the clock running out. Kobe from 25 feet >>>>>>>> Kwame from 8 feet.
The better half of the battle is creating a high quality look for your team. For example CP3 can have one of the best offenses during that time regardless of his shoddy teammates, Kobe on the other hand only creates low% shots for himself, so much so that his teams usually elite offense becomes mediocre in the clutch. Thats a pretty glaring fact when dealing with such a minute part of the game.

Those low% shots may be higher% looks if other players cared to settle for those, but it is not the only means of producing efficient buckets in the clutch.

Chronz
02-03-2012, 05:57 PM
I'll 2nd the pompous know it all part on Chronz... I put up a dictionary definition of the word clutch and he says ppl have vague definitions of what clutch means in here... All i have to say is :facepalm:
Your definition served no point in my argument as it fails to accurately assess/rank players. Which is what I mean when its so subjective/vague of a concept.

As a general rule I would stay out of conversations if you dont get the gist of them.

Chronz
02-03-2012, 05:58 PM
Apparently you never heard or watched any of Michael Jordan before.

Apparently you havent been following this thread, according to MJ he shoots 50% in those situations. So whats your point?

MickeyMgl
02-03-2012, 06:22 PM
Are there really people out there who don't think Kobe is clutch? :confused:

There are people out there who have been trying to make this argument for a couple of years now, ever since Truehoop's Henry Abbott discovered that you could play with numbers.

Chronz
02-03-2012, 08:15 PM
There are people out there who have been trying to make this argument for a couple of years now, ever since Truehoop's Henry Abbott discovered that you could play with numbers.

Thats really the first time youve heard this complaint?

valade16
02-03-2012, 08:28 PM
Thats really the first time youve heard this complaint?

I've never heard somebody claim that Kobe isn't clutch other than people who were clearly hateful of both him and the Lakers.

Kobe is about as clutch as it gets. So Kobe doesn't shoot game winners at as high a % as Jordan, that's Michael Jordan. I certainly won't think worse of a player because they can't measure up to Jordan, because who can?

ghettosean
02-03-2012, 09:25 PM
Your definition served no point in my argument as it fails to accurately assess/rank players. Which is what I mean when its so subjective/vague of a concept.

As a general rule I would stay out of conversations if you dont get the gist of them.

Wow Chronz that's really seems like you are being subjective/vague and undetailed so I guess I will ask this directly to you then.


Here's a definition from www.dictionary.com again not my definition the dictionary definition.

Not sure how lots of people are arguing with an official dictionary definition but keep it on haters.

adjective
16. done or accomplished in a critical situation: a clutch shot that won the basketball game.
17. dependable in crucial situations: a clutch player.

So Chronz was Kobe dependable in crucial situations during his postseason runs? Has he done or accomplished anything in crucial situations?

5 Rings and 2 finals MVPs would seem to support that point...

Or do you disagree?
__________________

nickdymez
02-03-2012, 10:25 PM
Off topic and invalid, where did I say you didnt watch Laker games?

damn, you got me.

Chronz
02-03-2012, 11:57 PM
I've never heard somebody claim that Kobe isn't clutch other than people who were clearly hateful of both him and the Lakers.
Agreed, but I would take it a step further, I dont think anyone can accurately pin point whos clutch and whos not and where they rank.


Kobe is about as clutch as it gets.
Sounds like hyperbole to me.


So Kobe doesn't shoot game winners at as high a % as Jordan, that's Michael Jordan. I certainly won't think worse of a player because they can't measure up to Jordan, because who can?
Exactly, hes no MJ

Chronz
02-03-2012, 11:58 PM
Wow Chronz that's really seems like you are being subjective/vague and undetailed so I guess I will ask this directly to you then.


Here's a definition from www.dictionary.com again not my definition the dictionary definition.

Not sure how lots of people are arguing with an official dictionary definition but keep it on haters.

adjective
16. done or accomplished in a critical situation: a clutch shot that won the basketball game.
17. dependable in crucial situations: a clutch player.

So Chronz was Kobe dependable in crucial situations during his postseason runs? Has he done or accomplished anything in crucial situations?

5 Rings and 2 finals MVPs would seem to support that point...

Or do you disagree?
__________________
Your definition served no point in my argument as it fails to accurately assess/rank players. Which is what I mean when its so subjective/vague of a concept.

As a general rule I would stay out of conversations if you dont get the gist of them.

Chronz
02-03-2012, 11:59 PM
damn, you got me.

You should copy and paste that argument, it works in any debate and gets you out in a hurry.

DaLakerz Rulz
02-04-2012, 12:10 AM
Your definition served no point in my argument as it fails to accurately assess/rank players. Which is what I mean when its so subjective/vague of a concept.

As a general rule I would stay out of conversations if you dont get the gist of them.

And I would think you would have learned by now to stay out of these conversation altogether, given how long you have been on this site. Forget the fact that this topic is brought up every single week, but when is the last time you have seen these "Kobe" threads end well? You are just perpetuating this arguing by responding to every irrational poster on here (I know, its tempting). Better just to stay out of it...

Chronz
02-04-2012, 12:27 AM
I usually dont jump into these but its been slow lately

Kobe4Life
02-04-2012, 02:34 AM
How much of this idea is a result of the media's agendas? 16/56 on game winners (since 2007) may suggest it's an awful lot.

http://www.keeperofthecourt.com/2012/01/17/the-clutch-phenomenon-and-the-labels-overusage/

The only thing it suggests is that he won two titles after 2007. Great argument man!

Does it really matter about being clutch at the end of the day when were talking about Kobe with his 5 rings. People and their Kobe hate is unreal get over it he is one of the best to ever play the game.

Bruno
02-04-2012, 03:02 AM
Bryant leads the NBA in fourth quarter points as of 2/2.

MTar786
02-04-2012, 03:49 AM
ffff

ghettosean
02-04-2012, 05:26 AM
Your definition served no point in my argument as it fails to accurately assess/rank players. Which is what I mean when its so subjective/vague of a concept.

As a general rule I would stay out of conversations if you dont get the gist of them.
Way to dodge the questions that prove you wrong... You say the actual definition of clutch is irrelevant to your conversation. You heard it here folks Chronz says that winning championships and getting MVP's (Most Valuable Player awards) do not properly assess players. So maybe Kobe wasn't the most valuable player in those 2 final appearances. Way to show that your not pompus arrogant and ignorant Chronz :facepalm:

Keep throwing quick verbal jabs instead of providing evidence or even debating or responding to questions. It really makes me happy that you can't respond shows that you are obviously wrong and hardheaded.

Ignorance is bliss huh?

Can't wait to hear your response again of this had no relevance to my :hide:

BlinkManJan02
02-04-2012, 05:44 AM
I'm never clutch in the bedroom :(.

time4change
02-04-2012, 09:49 AM
And I would think you would have learned by now to stay out of these conversation altogether, given how long you have been on this site. Forget the fact that this topic is brought up every single week, but when is the last time you have seen these "Kobe" threads end well? You are just perpetuating this arguing by responding to every irrational poster on here (I know, its tempting). Better just to stay out of it...

:rolleyes:

Oh boy. So we are saying Kobe isn't a clutch player? lol delusional.

Again I will say this to you and Chronz. I'll take the opinions of NBA players, exec's, and former players/coaches over the OPINION of some snotty nosed PSD user.

You know, like Magic Johnson, Bill Walton, Barkely, I could go on and on.

SlimKid
02-04-2012, 12:41 PM
I agree 100% with Chronz.. I'm not sure why some of you are getting mad at him for not using anecdotal evidence in his argument, it actually makes his argument stronger. To say that it's too hard to define clutchness based on subjective definitions is not something to argue with, it is what it is..

DaLakerz Rulz
02-04-2012, 12:56 PM
:rolleyes:

Oh boy. So we are saying Kobe isn't a clutch player? lol delusional.

Again I will say this to you and Chronz. I'll take the opinions of NBA players, exec's, and former players/coaches over the OPINION of some snotty nosed PSD user.

You know, like Magic Johnson, Bill Walton, Barkely, I could go on and on.

I am not getting pulled into this, but I will go against my own advice and will respond this once. Never did I say Kobe is not clutch, and Chronz did not either (read back the last 2-3 pages). The "irrational" comment was in regards to how people are trying to rate clutchness. The argument you are making does not hold much weight because at the end of the day, it is still opinion and very subjective. It is an argument that is too often thrown around here on pretty much every topic.

kenzo400
02-04-2012, 02:32 PM
How much of this idea is a result of the media's agendas? 16/56 on game winners (since 2007) may suggest it's an awful lot.

http://www.keeperofthecourt.com/2012/01/17/the-clutch-phenomenon-and-the-labels-overusage/

He's been clutch in the most important games. But then again the refs have helped him out tremendously in the playoffs. That's why i always said, the two championships he got after Shaq should have an asterisk next to them.

ghettosean
02-04-2012, 04:11 PM
He's been clutch in the most important games. But then again the refs have helped him out tremendously in the playoffs. That's why i always said, the two championships he got after Shaq should have an asterisk next to them.
Naw I don't thinkI trust your opinion I think I'd rather trust in the website -->www.keeperofthecourt.com that shafty posted that site has lots of insite and interesting facts. Most of the articles are written by Fishman[Shhh]. Check the link with an author name like that I would trust him over Chris Brousard, Phil Jackson, Magic Johnson and others.

I can't wait to read my next Fishman[Shhh] article he's got all the facts.

jam
02-04-2012, 08:22 PM
Kobe is easily among the top 15 players of all time. Even now, it would be tough to come up with a list of 10 players who have had a better career than Kobe Bryant.

Having said that, his legacy is the most difficult to evaluate among the top 10 or 15 players of all time. There is no other player as similar to Jordan than Kobe; on the other hand, his failures are so magnificent, so frequent, and often times completely laughable, his detractors can easily create an extraordinarily long list of stupid plays and bonehead decisions, placing him among the dumbest players in league history, if they so desired.

He is one of the most despised players among his teammates as well, for the reasons stated above. He may have been unfairly blamed for orchestrating Shaq's departure from Los Angeles, but there is no debating the open contempt his teammates had for him, primarily for his complete unwillingness to even consider the concept of team basketball or even the notion of teammates for that matter.

The praise and respect he has earned for his achievements are well deserved. But so is the derision and contempt. Both his fans and critics have abundant, even overwhelming evidence to support their completely opposite conclusions.

In summary, Kobe Bryant is one of the best, but also one of the dumbest and most selfish players in the history of the game.

valade16
02-04-2012, 10:10 PM
Agreed, but I would take it a step further, I dont think anyone can accurately pin point whos clutch and whos not and where they rank.


Exactly, hes no MJ

Really? You mean you can't say for certain whether Michael Jordan is clutch or not? :speechless::confused:

Chronz
02-04-2012, 10:39 PM
Way to dodge the questions that prove you wrong...
For it to prove me wrong it would have assess/rank players. Ill let you look those words up on your handy dictionary you seem to think holds all the answers.



You say the actual definition of clutch is irrelevant to your conversation.
Yes, because mine is about the notion of ranking players based on clutchness. Your barometer/definition fails miserably In accomplishing that.



You heard it here folks Chronz says that winning championships and getting MVP's (Most Valuable Player awards) do not properly assess players.
Assess/rank was my exact choice of words and no they don't. That my point continues to fly over your head is why you calling me pompous is so hysterical, your so dense that you think your elementary definition holds some sort of secret ranking system.



So maybe Kobe wasn't the most valuable player in those 2 final appearances. Way to show that your not pompus arrogant and ignorant Chronz :facepalm:
Way to throw straw man arguments when you have no idea of the discussion at hand.



Keep throwing quick verbal jabs instead of providing evidence or even debating or responding to questions. It really makes me happy that you can't respond shows that you are obviously wrong and hardheaded.

Ignorance is bliss huh?

Can't wait to hear your response again of this had no relevance to my :hide:
The irony of this post is bliss. Verbal jabs? Really, the guy calling me pompous is bringing up verbal jabs? LMFAO

Chronz
02-04-2012, 10:49 PM
Agreed, but I would take it a step further, I dont think anyone can accurately pin point whos clutch and whos not and where they rank.


Exactly, hes no MJ

Really? You mean you can't say for certain whether Michael Jordan is clutch or not? :speechless::confused:
I wouldn't be able to tell you if he is more clutch than player x because I don't know of any laid out criteria. I obviously have my beliefs and we can look at some things, but the strength of my argument would NOT be based on empirical evidence.

I mean if anyone really cared we could splice up every play that falls under a certain category and stack them up but that would only be for recent eras. The amount of effort it would take to focus on such a minute aspect of the game would be maddening so I have never really bothered with the subject. If I could and did try all that I wouldn't be here, I'd prolly be working for Cuban. Hes one of the few guys who really believes in its importance, he may be right, but he has the resources to investigate.


Let me put it this way, we all agree there are various aspects of clutchness right, like I consider Kobe the best at making final shots with very little time, I once considered Melo the best at actually making a quality look in a final halfcourt set (when he has a PG feeding him), I used to consider Bron the best at bringing his team back or going up for good in the final 5 minutes. Then theres defense, rebounding, creating, there are so many players who could be better at some aspects how do you come to the conclusion that those plays are more clutch than others?

BTW, The reason I say used to is because lately they have all faltered, I don't know if they are losing those abilities or if this is just the nature of the game or if my eyes are just playing tricks on me. What I can tell you is that its not as simple as pointing at wins and losses. Now I personally think CP3 is the best today, based on several other small anecdotes but I could easily be wrong about him too.

I hate Tony Allen in defensive clutch situations and its based entirely on a few games I can recall him screwing up. Those could have been flukes but thats what happens when you argue something so minute and subjective

ghettosean
02-05-2012, 02:30 AM
for it to prove me wrong it would have assess/rank players. Ill let you look those words up on your handy dictionary you seem to think holds all the answers.

i didn't look it up for me i looked it up for you because you obviously don't know what the word means. Try reading some more chronz and have confidence "i think i can i think i can"


yes, because mine is about the notion of ranking players based on clutchness. Your barometer/definition fails miserably in accomplishing that.

so my definition didn't assist you with the notion of ranking players. This is where i'm trying to help you understand the english language. If you have read this far you are doing very good and should go get yourself a cookie... Good boy ;)

clutch

adjective
16. Done or accomplished in a critical situation: A clutch shot that won the basketball game.
17. dependable in crucial situations: A clutch player.


kobe has 5 rings and 2 finals mvps this man is clutch 1st off since i don't think that can be debated based on his accomplishments in crucial situations like the nba finals or post season appearances. If you cannot rank/assess him based on this i guess that's your problem take a few years and figure it out.


assess/rank was my exact choice of words and no they don't. That my point continues to fly over your head is why you calling me pompous is so hysterical, your so dense that you think your elementary definition holds some sort of secret ranking system.


read above no point in responding to that oh and sorry about the elementary definition i thought you would understand it but it seems it's too advanced for you. Sorry about that bud i'll try harder to find something on your level in the future.


way to throw straw man arguments when you have no idea of the discussion at hand.


:rolleyes:


The irony of this post is bliss. Verbal jabs? Really, the guy calling me pompous is bringing up verbal jabs? Lmfao

of course i am and i'm not the only one in this thread nevermind the forum who has said as much about you. Why all the anger... you mad! Lol!!!

LakersMaster24
02-05-2012, 04:22 PM
This is why I can never take Clippers fans seriously when it comes down to talking Lakers or Kobe. The amount of hate that they kept inside from all these years of being the toilet paper of the Lakers is finally spilling out.

If Kobe was a Clipper his whole career Chronz and other Clippers fans would be all over him. Just saying.

You can keep telling yourself that Kobe isnt clutch, but thats where it stops. You and your ignorant words.

Hawkeye15
02-05-2012, 05:15 PM
The one thing that keeps coming back for me, in the article Abbott wrote, was this part:


One of the key arguments in his favor is that he draws double-teams, which allows other Lakers to score. But that doesn't seem to happen much. Over Bryant's 15-year career, the Lakers have had the NBA's best offense, and second-best won-loss record. No other team can match their mighty 109 points per 100 possessions over the entire period.

You'd expect Los Angeles to also have one of the league's best offenses in crunch time, right? Especially with the ball in the hands of the player most suited to those moments.

That's not what happens, though. In the final 24 seconds of close games the Lakers offense regresses horribly, managing just 82 points per 100 possessions. And it's not a simple case of every team having a hard time scoring in crunch time. Over Bryant's career, 11 teams have had better crunch-time offenses, led by the Hornets with a shocking 107 points per 100 possessions in crunch time, a huge credit to Chris Paul.

The Lakers are not among the league leaders in crunch-time offense -- instead, they're just about average, scoring 82.35 points per 100 possessions in a league that averages 80.03. They are, however, among the league leaders in how much worse their offense declines in crunch time.

When Bryant is on the floor in crunch time, Bryant's Lakers are actually outscored by their opponents.

A great offensive team performing at average levels, with a star setting records for number of shots attempted. Teammates left wide open. Evidence, even, that Bryant's play puts his team into nailbiters that needn't be so close.

That, my friends, is a ball hog.

Forget the 31% from the field, forget all the other criteria. The Lakers simply become a butt-reaming average team in the last 24 seconds of a close game, where as they are the best offense the other 47:36 of the game.