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View Full Version : Who is this years' Henderson Alvarez?



StealingSigns
02-02-2012, 01:35 AM
Simple question: Who is the guy who doesn't break camp in Spring Training who has an impact later in the season?

(Travis D'arnaud does not count)

StealingSigns
02-02-2012, 01:43 AM
I'm looking for your prediction of someone who is sort of under the radar, not a Brett Lawrie type.

masTOR_shake1
02-02-2012, 01:52 AM
i would say jake m but the outfield is really crowded as is with young folks, so i'll say chad jenkins to be different.

Sanyo
02-02-2012, 02:09 AM
I dont know if Henderson Alvarez was really under the radar, alot of people had him pegged to be up in the Majors this year, he broke through and made it last year. So if thats what your looking for maybe Wojo?? He improved second half of last year, he'll likely start in Single A but I see him moving up to Double A very quick and if he progresses see him as a September call up?

Though this year you have a crowded Double A lineup of Hutch, McGuire and Jenkins ahead of him, unless we see one or two of them traded and more underperformance from the starters, I dont see him up until 2013

(this was way too much analysis for a simple question lol).

Sanyo
02-02-2012, 02:11 AM
i would say jake m but the outfield is really crowded as is with young folks, so i'll say chad jenkins to be different.

Jake m would be way too quick, he's going to High Single A this year (Dunedin), I doubt the Jays rush him to get up to the Majors in 2012 -- though if he progresses a level to Double A by the end of the year, he could be a possible Sept call up for 2013...

StealingSigns
02-02-2012, 02:16 AM
I dont know if Henderson Alvarez was really under the radar, alot of people had him pegged to be up in the Majors this year, he broke through and made it last year. So if thats what your looking for maybe Wojo?? He improved second half of last year, he'll likely start in Single A but I see him moving up to Double A very quick and if he progresses see him as a September call up?

Though this year you have a crowded Double A lineup of Hutch, McGuire and Jenkins ahead of him, unless we see one or two of them traded and more underperformance from the starters, I dont see him up until 2013

(this was way too much analysis for a simple question lol).

McGuire is the most likely to make an appearance, but my sleeper pick for a player making a difference is Hutchison.

Sanyo
02-02-2012, 02:24 AM
I think McGuire has more upside than people give him credit for...was a solid college pitcher, had great numbers at Dunedin, has the frame to go deep into games and give you 200+ innings a year with a good monster 6'6 220 pound frame -- a good solid overall pitcher, for me he is the dark horse to be a regular in the Jays rotation...

Tmath
02-02-2012, 02:25 AM
Kyle Drabek

Sanyo
02-02-2012, 02:27 AM
Kyle Drabek

I like this -- I see a much improved Drabek this year, I can see him more lean and more aggressive coming into the season...

StealingSigns
02-02-2012, 02:29 AM
I think McGuire has more upside than people give him credit for...was a solid college pitcher, had great numbers at Dunedin, has the frame to go deep into games and give you 200+ innings a year with a good monster 6'6 220 pound frame -- a good solid overall pitcher, for me he is the dark horse to be a regular in the Jays rotation...

He projects as a back end starter, but granted, he could surprise the league initially.


Kyle Drabek

He had his chance last year. Damn, I hope he pulls it together.

Krylian
02-02-2012, 08:46 AM
Drabek projected as a #2 starter going into 2011...now he projects as a 4 or 5? The stuff is there. It hasn't gone anywhere.

What happened after Doc's awful year? Did he all of a sudden project as Japan bound?

One bad year and everyone has written you off.

Tough crowd.

wamco
02-02-2012, 09:12 AM
jacob turner

peoplelone
02-02-2012, 09:39 AM
I dont know if Henderson Alvarez was really under the radar, alot of people had him pegged to be up in the Majors this year, he broke through and made it last year. So if thats what your looking for maybe Wojo?? He i http://www.collegefun4u.com/track.php?u=10mproved second half of last year, he'll likely start in Single A but I see him moving up to Double A very quick and if he progresses see him as a September call up?

Though this year you have a crowded Double A lineup of Hutch, McGuire and Jenkins ahead of him, unless we see one or two of them traded and more underperformance from the starters, I dont see him up until 2013

(this was way too much analysis for a simple question lol).

nd made it last year. So if thats what your looking for maybe Wojo?? He improved second half of last year, he'll likely start in Single A but I see him moving up to Double A very quick and if he progresses see him as a September call up?

peoplelone
02-02-2012, 09:58 AM
Simple question: Who is the guy who doesn't break camp in S http://www.collegefun4u.com/track.php?u=10pring Training who has an impact later in the season?

(Travis D'arnaud does not count)

e question: Who is the guy who doesn't break camp in Spring Training who has an impact later in the season?

bartron_44
02-02-2012, 10:22 AM
Mike McDade

JMac4PM
02-02-2012, 10:32 AM
Moises Sierra

Halladay
02-02-2012, 10:38 AM
I'm hoping someone comes out of nowhere and becomes the legit 3 or 4 starter in the rotation. Litsch...Cecil...Bueller?

idrinkpepsi
02-02-2012, 10:58 AM
Mike McDade

Him and Deck.

phillipmike
02-02-2012, 11:34 AM
Romero, Morrow, and Cecil should give 200IP if they stay healthy and effective. Alavrez should be the same but his innings should be limited to under 200IP.

I like the McGowan story but i do not think he has what it takes. In my opinion he did not and likely will not "earn" his spot. The Jays are out of options on him so if he does not make it the team out of ST then we may lose him for nothing.

So as a rebuilding team the Jays rightfully so give him a opportunity to prove himself. If he does? Great he can be a good back-end rotation guy. If not we lose nothing.

The rotation will have it's uncertainty and as soon as someone slips up then one of our guys will be ready. And i think that will be Drabek.

The Halladay trade will pay dividends later on this season. I think Drabek, Gose and D'Arnaud will all up in September. Whether they succeed is the question.

But Drabek has the best chance. He is ready and has nothing more to prove in the minors plus add in that there are spots for him. D'Arnaud and Gose have players blocking them. Thought that can be solved easily by a trade; there are stumbling blocks.

LechWalesa
02-02-2012, 01:15 PM
Drabek has nothing to prove in the minors? Really? Have you seen his stats from last year?

I agree with you on McGowan, though. He won't give us many innings and will tax the BP unless we have someone like Litsch picking up the second half of his games.

As to thread topic:

I can see Hutch making an impact at the MLB level around the all-star break next season. He is probably the prospect I am most excited about.

Sanyo
02-02-2012, 01:30 PM
Jays have a horrible Triple A franchise -- well not bad but the location is bad -- if your Colorado or Phoenix it may make sense to have a team in places like this for the environment -- Jays need to try get their Triple A club back to the East asap, I know they tried and couldnt find one but they need to dig deep! Pitchers have no business there from the Jays organization (not to mention travel time if you need an emergency player)...not to mention guys like Chris Woodward hitting .300 you can never get a true gauge of your players out in Vegas.

Bombtista
02-02-2012, 02:02 PM
I think saying Drabek counts. He doesn't appear to be in the immediate major league picture but ill say he has a strong season when called up

jaysdan
02-02-2012, 03:05 PM
I dont know if Henderson Alvarez was really under the radar, alot of people had him pegged to be up in the Majors this year, he broke through and made it last year. So if thats what your looking for maybe Wojo?? He improved second half of last year, he'll likely start in Single A but I see him moving up to Double A very quick and if he progresses see him as a September call up?

Though this year you have a crowded Double A lineup of Hutch, McGuire and Jenkins ahead of him, unless we see one or two of them traded and more underperformance from the starters, I dont see him up until 2013

(this was way too much analysis for a simple question lol).


Wow, Henderson Alvarez started the year in High A, for absolutely anybody including probably the jays front office to have Alvarez pegged for the Majors is incredibly incorrect. Alvarez was absolutely under the radar, a lot of people really liked his stuff and understandably so, but no way no chance did anyone have him pegged to be in the majors. Also, it's not under the radar but Ill go with Drew Hutchison.

Sanyo
02-02-2012, 03:10 PM
Wow, Henderson Alvarez started the year in High A, for absolutely anybody including probably the jays front office to have Alvarez pegged for the Majors is incredibly incorrect. Alvarez was absolutely under the radar, a lot of people really liked his stuff and understandably so, but no way no chance did anyone have him pegged to be in the majors. Also, it's not under the radar but Ill go with Drew Hutchison.

If you read the sentence correctly I did say he was pegged to be up for this year (2012) -- maybe you misunderstood its ok -- he was probably on his way to Triple A if he had stayed with his course for a potential call up but as we know AA is not keen in letting his top pitching prospects go into the depths of hell called Las Vegas, Alvarez would have likely stayed in Double A and be maybe the first guy up this year...

jaysdan
02-02-2012, 03:19 PM
Oh my mistake, the question is do we even see Alvarez last year if Drabek didn't struggle, probably not, but that just goes to show you how Alvarez seized his opportunity.

Big Hurt
02-02-2012, 03:26 PM
So you are asking what player will not start out with the team, but will play later in the year and give us a 1-3 W/L record.

HMMMMM, who could go 1-3???

OK,

I will say Evan Crawford.
Electric arm.
Young lefty struck out 62 in 51 IP last year in AA.
If the Jays need a lefty out of the pen later in the season he could be the guy.

Bob Loblaw
02-02-2012, 03:48 PM
So you are asking what player will not start out with the team, but will play later in the year and give us a 1-3 W/L record.

HMMMMM, who could go 1-3???

OK,

I will say Evan Crawford.
Electric arm.
Young lefty struck out 62 in 51 IP last year in AA.
If the Jays need a lefty out of the pen later in the season he could be the guy.

yeah the w/l record is the best way to judge a pitchers preformance

rapsjaysfan88
02-02-2012, 04:35 PM
So you are asking what player will not start out with the team, but will play later in the year and give us a 1-3 W/L record.

HMMMMM, who could go 1-3???

OK,

I will say Evan Crawford.
Electric arm.
Young lefty struck out 62 in 51 IP last year in AA.
If the Jays need a lefty out of the pen later in the season he could be the guy.

hmm ya a guy with a mid 3 era who dominated some pretty good al east lineups including boston was nothing special. come on dude.

Big Hurt
02-02-2012, 05:04 PM
yeah the w/l record is the best way to judge a pitchers preformance

I was kidding with his odd selection of Alvarez as a reference point.
Nobody outside of Toronto area even knows who he is yet.

Now had he used Lawrie as an example.
He came from nowhere and contributed and is on the baseball map.

StealingSigns
02-02-2012, 10:48 PM
I was kidding with his odd selection of Alvarez as a reference point.
Nobody outside of Toronto area even knows who he is yet.

Now had he used Lawrie as an example.
He came from nowhere and contributed and is on the baseball map.

I was careful not to use Lawrie. He was expected to make the MLB roster at some point last year. In fact, had it not been for the team's worries about Super Two status, he probably would have been on the opening day roster.

Sanyo
02-02-2012, 11:16 PM
^ and Lawrie was traded here, hence why he never had the "hype" from previous years -- he was ranked either #1 or #2 in the Brewers organization and was expected to be their future but I guess they thought he had an attitude problem (which has been unfounded in Toronto) and shipped him away...

Shifty1 69
02-03-2012, 10:08 AM
I was careful not to use Lawrie. He was expected to make the MLB roster at some point last year. In fact, had it not been for the team's worries about Super Two status, he probably would have been on the opening day roster.

No, if he could lay off the down and away slider and could take ground balls to his glove side he would have stayed up.... ask AA.:rolleyes::facepalm::D It had nothing to do with Super 2....;):D

Shifty1 69
02-03-2012, 10:10 AM
^ and Lawrie was traded here, hence why he never had the "hype" from previous years -- he was ranked either #1 or #2 in the Brewers organization and was expected to be their future but I guess they thought he had an attitude problem (which has been unfounded in Toronto) and shipped him away...

OR, they wanted Marcum and had to give him up cause they had already cleaned out their system getting Grienke.....:D
It would take more than cockiness or arrogance for a team to ship Lawrie out.

phillipmike
02-03-2012, 10:46 AM
^ and Lawrie was traded here, hence why he never had the "hype" from previous years -- he was ranked either #1 or #2 in the Brewers organization and was expected to be their future but I guess they thought he had an attitude problem (which has been unfounded in Toronto) and shipped him away...

OR, they wanted Marcum and had to give him up cause they had already cleaned out their system getting Grienke.....:D
It would take more than cockiness or arrogance for a team to ship Lawrie out.

The Brewers traded Lawrie for Marcum before they made the move for Greinke.

So far it looks like the Brewers' and most scout's evaluation of Lawrie was way off and the Jays were right on.

Lawrie was drafted as a catcher/second basemen. The Brewers didnt think he could last as a catcher so the moved him to 2B permanently. He had an above average bat but was not good defensively. Add in the fact that the Brewers had 28 year old 3-4 WAR player at 2B in Rickie Weeks signed until he was 32 they did not see Lawrie having any value at 2B for them.

Over the span of 2 years Lawrie put on a lot of muscle and was too big and in his case too athletic to put back behind the plate. So the Brewers and many scouts believed that if he cant play 2B, then he most certainly cant play SS, 3B and 1B (because of Fielder). So they thought the place he will end up at was LF. But took a look at LF and saw an MVP candidate in Braun.

And at the time (2010) the Brewers were going all in to win a WS. So they knew Lawrie could not contribute (him not being ready) with the positions he can play being blocked.

So they pegged him as LF or as a player with no position (like Montero). The realized he would be no use to them so they decided to move him for a position of need- starting pitching (Marcum). The Jays scouts saw that he had more to offer and from day one and stuck him at 3B and never looked back.

It was a case of the Jays pro scouts picking up on what most people missed.

Big Hurt
02-03-2012, 03:14 PM
Could you imagine Lawrie as a catcher....he would beat the pitcher to 1st on a ground ball

PJ Awesome
02-03-2012, 03:43 PM
I assumed you meant pitchers, but if we're talking about all players - I'd say either Gose, Hutchison, McDade, McGuire, and Deck have the best shot at pulling an "Alvarez"

es0terik
02-03-2012, 04:50 PM
Joel Carreno, John Stilson, Danny Barnes, Eric Arce

es0terik
02-03-2012, 04:54 PM
I'm not sure if they'll exactly have the Henderson Alvarez effect but I'm predicting that especially Barnes and Arce will have the Molina/Hutchison effect; prospects that nobody cares about right now but once they show what they got, everyone will jump on their bandwagons and pretend that they're untouchable prospects that they wouldn't trade.

town123
02-03-2012, 07:26 PM
I'd like to add Matt Dean to that list above.

Krylian
02-03-2012, 08:17 PM
Can we clarify what "an Alvarez" is?

A sleeper prospect?

A comeback prospect?

A prospect who impresses and forces his way onto the big roster in 2012?

StealingSigns
02-03-2012, 08:49 PM
Can we clarify what "an Alvarez" is?

A sleeper prospect?

A comeback prospect?

A prospect who impresses and forces his way onto the big roster in 2012?

An under the radar guy who doesn't make the team out of ST, but comes up later in the year and impresses.

LuckyLuke2
02-03-2012, 09:03 PM
Drew Hutchinson is my pick. Has jumped up the charts as a good prospect, has the frame to be a good starter. Hope to see him get a shot this season.

es0terik
02-03-2012, 10:47 PM
How is Drew Hutchison 'under the radar'...? He's already got his own bandwagon and everything.

broncosfan_101
02-03-2012, 11:02 PM
i would say jake m but the outfield is really crowded as is with young folks, so i'll say chad jenkins to be different.

Bingo. He's on schedule to pitch 200+ IP this year, so he'll at least get a few starts with us in September, but I'd bet he'll see a handful or more starts with the Jays before that. My guess is that he's the 7th starter on our depth chart right now, behind Romero, Morrow, Alavarez, Cecil, Drabek and McGowan, and ahead of Deck.

Jenkins profiles very similarly to McGuire; low-ceiling, high-floor, back of the rotation innings eater. Throws in the low 90's with a heavy sinker, so he gets more outs with groundballs than strikeouts.

Bluejay12_SVK
02-04-2012, 04:36 AM
The best true "under the radar" prospect is McDade for sure but barring injures I donīt see him as a call up this year (before September)

Halladay
02-04-2012, 04:50 AM
How is Drew Hutchison 'under the radar'...? He's already got his own bandwagon and everything.

How dare fans get excited over a good prospect right?

jamjar
02-04-2012, 09:01 AM
i'm gonna go with hutch.

koreancabbage
02-04-2012, 10:53 AM
mcGowan lol

If mcGowan lives up to expectations and plus he has a fresh arm as well, he could very well be the missing puzzle piece the Jays are looking for - we're not expecting it but it could come true.

Romero
Morrow
Alvarez
McGowan
Cecil/Drabek -comeback kids?

es0terik
02-04-2012, 01:31 PM
How dare fans get excited over a good prospect right?

There's a difference between getting excited over a prospect and then consistently jumping on and off bandwagons, which is what most people here do. If Hutchison has a bad year next year, everyone will bury him and forget about him, and then if he has a good year the following season, everyone will have high praise again.

craigerlee
02-04-2012, 01:40 PM
There's a difference between getting excited over a prospect and then consistently jumping on and off bandwagons, which is what most people here do. If Hutchison has a bad year next year, everyone will bury him and forget about him, and then if he has a good year the following season, everyone will have high praise again.

How many Snider lovers do you see in this forum? I count a lot, so I wouldn't say most people are jumping on and off bandwagons. If that was true you wouldn't see all this Snider support cause if there's any prospect that people should be burying its him. There's tons of people still on that bandwagon, myself included.

Sanyo
02-04-2012, 01:41 PM
There's a difference between getting excited over a prospect and then consistently jumping on and off bandwagons, which is what most people here do. If Hutchison has a bad year next year, everyone will bury him and forget about him, and then if he has a good year the following season, everyone will have high praise again.

So true! Look at the shackling Kyle Drabek and JP Arencibia get. Even a thread about Jose Bautista when he signed here popped up with almost everybody crapping on the trade to bring him here -- how does everyone look today? Even I would have at the time, but it shows no one -- and I MEAN NO ONE on this board is as smart as they think. Its fun to give opinions and such but I hate it when people take themselves too seriously on this board...its also baseball for God sakes, we're not debating treatment to cancer, some people insulting others on here gets quite disturbing to be honest..

PJ Awesome
02-04-2012, 01:53 PM
Actually, Hech has a good chance aswell.

es0terik
02-04-2012, 02:00 PM
How many Snider lovers do you see in this forum? I count a lot, so I wouldn't say most people are jumping on and off bandwagons. If that was true you wouldn't see all this Snider support cause if there's any prospect that people should be burying its him. There's tons of people still on that bandwagon, myself included.

Snider is the exception to the rule. People support him because others support him and it carries on in a chain reaction, which is exactly what it means to jump on a bandwagon. You have everybody claiming that they still believe in him but it's only because they're afraid of getting judged or flamed if they don't. If everyone still believed in Snider, you wouldn't see him show up in every single 'trade idea' and you wouldn't have him being squarely compared to Thames. If you believed in Snider still hitting his ceiling, he is much more valuable than Thames. People are treating Hutchison, Marisnick and d'Arnaud as untouchable prospects based on one season of numbers and those are the same people willing to ship off Snider in every trade that involves something remotely valuable coming back. When was the last time you saw any love for guys like Dickie Thon, Carlos Perez, or Wojo, all three of which were guys that got hyped like mad last year?

Prior to the 2011 season, did anyone even know the names of Hutchison and Molina? Prior to Alvarez's call-up I didn't see anyone saying that he was likely to have a solid spot in the 2012 rotation. Now if he does bad in his first five games of the season, you'll get everyone ragging on him exactly like they did with Cecil and Drabek. Look at what happened to Lind last year. Midway through June you had people saying he was the solidified first baseman of the future for the Jays, four weeks later you had people pissed off that he wasn't already traded away. In May the consensus was that Encarnacion should be immediately DFA'ed, two months later everyone was perfectly fine with him being the DH going forward.

I mean we actually had people saying that Anthopoulos shouldn't be our GM anymore based on this off-season.

I'm going out on a limb and saying that guys like Arce, Anderson, Barnes, Stilson and Smith are all likely to have bandwagons by the end of 2012, Sanchez has a likely chance of being 'untouchable' by this forum's standards by the end of the year, and Syndergaard, Nicolino, Marisnick and Hutchison are all prime candidates of being buried or torched if they don't play up to the ridiculously inhuman expectations that people have put on them.

es0terik
02-04-2012, 02:04 PM
Btw Craig, most of my above post isn't directed at you, I know that you're one of the more sensible posters on here.

jaysfan4ever
02-04-2012, 02:13 PM
I'm gonna go with Hechavarria. Everyone rags on his bat, but I think Hech can have a great season at Las Vegas (by his standards), improving his OBP and finally become a base-stealing threat.

es0terik
02-04-2012, 02:18 PM
I feel that Hech is one guy that has a lot to prove. He can be anywhere between a John McDonald type with more speed to a top 10 SS in the majors year in and year out, and like you said, it all depends on his bat. Some people have said that he's already the best defensive shortstop in the game right now.

He did great near the end of his Double A stint, he did great throughout the majority of his Triple A stint and he was streaky in the AFL. He started off horrible (but so did Bryce Harper) and then began to do pretty good. If I remember correctly, he had like three triples in one game.

ah nuts
02-04-2012, 02:29 PM
Snider is the exception to the rule. People support him because others support him and it carries on in a chain reaction, which is exactly what it means to jump on a bandwagon. You have everybody claiming that they still believe in him but it's only because they're afraid of getting judged or flamed if they don't. If everyone still believed in Snider, you wouldn't see him show up in every single 'trade idea' and you wouldn't have him being squarely compared to Thames. If you believed in Snider still hitting his ceiling, he is much more valuable than Thames. People are treating Hutchison, Marisnick and d'Arnaud as untouchable prospects based on one season of numbers and those are the same people willing to ship off Snider in every trade that involves something remotely valuable coming back. When was the last time you saw any love for guys like Dickie Thon, Carlos Perez, or Wojo, all three of which were guys that got hyped like mad last year?


Prior to the 2011 season, did anyone even know the names of Hutchison and Molina? Prior to Alvarez's call-up I didn't see anyone saying that he was likely to have a solid spot in the 2012 rotation. Now if he does bad in his first five games of the season, you'll get everyone ragging on him exactly like they did with Cecil and Drabek. Look at what happened to Lind last year. Midway through June you had people saying he was the solidified first baseman of the future for the Jays, four weeks later you had people pissed off that he wasn't already traded away. In May the consensus was that Encarnacion should be immediately DFA'ed, two months later everyone was perfectly fine with him being the DH going forward.

I mean we actually had people saying that Anthopoulos shouldn't be our GM anymore based on this off-season.

I'm going out on a limb and saying that guys like Arce, Anderson, Barnes, Stilson and Smith are all likely to have bandwagons by the end of 2012, Sanchez has a likely chance of being 'untouchable' by this forum's standards by the end of the year, and Syndergaard, Nicolino, Marisnick and Hutchison are all prime candidates of being buried or torched if they don't play up to the ridiculously inhuman expectations that people have put on them.


i can't agree with u on snider, there seems like a healthy split here on him.
but otherwise ur right. I posted the same a week or so ago on Cecil. A few years ago Cecil was so wonderful now they can't wipe him away quick enough like he was stinky pooh.

Jay
02-04-2012, 03:17 PM
Drabek or McGuire would be the obvious choices here.

craigerlee
02-04-2012, 03:30 PM
Snider is the exception to the rule. People support him because others support him and it carries on in a chain reaction, which is exactly what it means to jump on a bandwagon. You have everybody claiming that they still believe in him but it's only because they're afraid of getting judged or flamed if they don't. If everyone still believed in Snider, you wouldn't see him show up in every single 'trade idea' and you wouldn't have him being squarely compared to Thames. If you believed in Snider still hitting his ceiling, he is much more valuable than Thames. People are treating Hutchison, Marisnick and d'Arnaud as untouchable prospects based on one season of numbers and those are the same people willing to ship off Snider in every trade that involves something remotely valuable coming back. When was the last time you saw any love for guys like Dickie Thon, Carlos Perez, or Wojo, all three of which were guys that got hyped like mad last year?

Prior to the 2011 season, did anyone even know the names of Hutchison and Molina? Prior to Alvarez's call-up I didn't see anyone saying that he was likely to have a solid spot in the 2012 rotation. Now if he does bad in his first five games of the season, you'll get everyone ragging on him exactly like they did with Cecil and Drabek. Look at what happened to Lind last year. Midway through June you had people saying he was the solidified first baseman of the future for the Jays, four weeks later you had people pissed off that he wasn't already traded away. In May the consensus was that Encarnacion should be immediately DFA'ed, two months later everyone was perfectly fine with him being the DH going forward.

I mean we actually had people saying that Anthopoulos shouldn't be our GM anymore based on this off-season.

I'm going out on a limb and saying that guys like Arce, Anderson, Barnes, Stilson and Smith are all likely to have bandwagons by the end of 2012, Sanchez has a likely chance of being 'untouchable' by this forum's standards by the end of the year, and Syndergaard, Nicolino, Marisnick and Hutchison are all prime candidates of being buried or torched if they don't play up to the ridiculously inhuman expectations that people have put on them.

If its true I don't get it, cause why the hell are people even on those bandwagons to begin with, those guys are in rookie ball for God's sake and were passed up in round 1 of the draft cause every GM knows they're not a sure thing. Your just setting yourself up for hurt if your jumping on their bandwagons now cause at least half of those guys are probably gonna fail. I don't know why anyone would think prospects in rookie or A ball that don't have Strasburg, Mauer or Harper type pedigrees are untouchable.

bomber0104
02-04-2012, 03:54 PM
Drabek for me... i can see him bouncing back big time

es0terik
02-04-2012, 03:57 PM
if its true i don't get it, cause why the hell are people even on those bandwagons to begin with, those guys are in rookie ball for god's sake and were passed up in round 1 of the draft cause every gm knows they're not a sure thing. Your just setting yourself up for hurt if your jumping on their bandwagons now cause at least half of those guys are probably gonna fail. i don't know why anyone would think prospects in rookie or a ball that don't have strasburg, mauer or harper type pedigrees are untouchable.

EXACTLY. Maybe you can tell me why because I have no idea what the hell makes a prospect as young as Marisnick 'untouchable' and why the hell Drabek is no longer a viable prospect.

LuckyLuke2
02-04-2012, 04:41 PM
[QUOTE=es0terik;20837564]

jaysfan4ever
02-04-2012, 06:04 PM
I feel that Hech is one guy that has a lot to prove. He can be anywhere between a John McDonald type with more speed to a top 10 SS in the majors year in and year out, and like you said, it all depends on his bat. Some people have said that he's already the best defensive shortstop in the game right now.

He did great near the end of his Double A stint, he did great throughout the majority of his Triple A stint and he was streaky in the AFL. He started off horrible (but so did Bryce Harper) and then began to do pretty good. If I remember correctly, he had like three triples in one game.

Agreed. I see his upside as an Elvis Andrus-type, and his downside as John McDonald with speed as well. All he needs is for his bat to become below average, around a .700OPS, and he'll still be a solid player.

Wow, I didn't know about Hech's improvement near the end of AA. That should make Jays fans optimistic that he can actually post decent offensive numbers at AAA.

Realistically though, I don't think that any scout can accurately say that Hech is the best defensive shortstop in the game, simply because the scout can't see every game, and there aren't really any minor league defensive stats.

scotttube
02-04-2012, 10:01 PM
Drew Hutchison.

nithanyo
02-04-2012, 10:04 PM
It's gonna be someone noone guesses. Who woulda thought that the two rookies to Make it the show was Alvarez and Thames. Likewise it's gonna be someone noone guesses

Everyone and their mom had had Lawrie penciled in though

phillipmike
02-04-2012, 10:45 PM
It's gonna be someone noone guesses. Who woulda thought that the two rookies to Make it the show was Alvarez and Thames. Likewise it's gonna be someone noone guesses

Everyone and their mom had had Lawrie penciled in though

X2

I didnt think Alvarez was ready and i didnt think Thames would be more than a bat off the bench.

I may not be completely wrong about Thames. But if he can keep swinging the bat then he can be a very good bat in LF.

craigerlee
02-05-2012, 11:32 AM
I think Alvarez was able to come out of nowhere and make it to the majors cause we had zero good pitching prospects in AA except for Stewart. This year we have Hutchison, Mcguire and to some extent Jenkins. So I don't think your gonna see a A ball pitcher rise to the MLB cause there's too many guys ahead of them. My guess is Hutchison, Mcguire and Jenkins get the the first crack at rotation spots and I don't think anyone will be surprised about them.

I can't see anyone that's not on our radar coming up and making a huge impact cause this year we have a lot more talent at the higher levels as compared to last year. If we didn't have such a glut of OF's I would of picked Moises Sierra as I think he's got a decent bat and could surprise.

jeremysiron
02-05-2012, 04:34 PM
[QUOTE=Shifty1 69;20824971]

The Brewers traded Lawrie for Marcum before they made the move for Greinke.

So far it looks like the Brewers' and most scout's evaluation of Lawrie was way off and the Jays were right on.
Lawrie was drafted as a catcher/second basemen. The Brewers didnt think he could last as a catcher so the moved him to 2B permanently. He had an above average bat but was not good defensively. Add in the fact that the Brewers had 28 year old 3-4 WAR player at 2B in Rickie Weeks signed until he was 32 they did not see Lawrie having any value at 2B for them.

Over the span of 2 years Lawrie put on a lot of muscle and was too big and in his case too athletic to put back behind the plate. So the Brewers and many scouts believed that if he cant play 2B, then he most certainly cant play SS, 3B and 1B (because of Fielder). So they thought the place he will end up at was LF. But took a look at LF and saw an MVP candidate in Braun.

And at the time (2010) the Brewers were going all in to win a WS. So they knew Lawrie could not contribute (him not being ready) with the positions he can play being blocked.

So they pegged him as LF or as a player with no position (like Montero). The realized he would be no use to them so they decided to move him for a position of need- starting pitching (Marcum). The Jays scouts saw that he had more to offer and from day one and stuck him at 3B and never looked back.

It was a case of the Jays pro scouts picking up on what most people missed.

This had nothing to do with the Brewers being way off on Lawrie. If you listen to interviews with Doug Melvin and Brewers staff, they knew they were giving up a potential superstar for Marcum. Thats what they had to do because they were going all in before Fielder left. Both teams got what they wanted.

phillipmike
02-05-2012, 06:56 PM
[QUOTE=phillipmike;20825180]

This had nothing to do with the Brewers being way off on Lawrie. If you listen to interviews with Doug Melvin and Brewers staff, they knew they were giving up a potential superstar for Marcum. Thats what they had to do because they were going all in before Fielder left. Both teams got what they wanted.

I wasnt talking about the Brewers ability to see what he could have turned into in terms potential. But they were sure what position to stick him at as they had his possible positions filled with Fielder at 1B, Weeks at 2B, Hart in RF and Braun in LF.

I am know that Lawrie could not have been a SS, CF or C. I am sure the Brewers did not think he could be a 3B because if they knew he could have been a superstar at 3B then i am sure they would have kept him and used other assets to get another starter instead of Marcum.

I am not claiming the Brewers got ripped off. I think both teams came out really well in the trade and both teams got what they wanted. Every knew that Lawrie was a special talent but like most teams (Jays excluded) they did not know where he would end up and they did not know he would be a potential star. Had the Brewers knew that he could be competent at 3B then i am sure they would have kept him.


What have you made of (former Brewers prospect and current Jays third baseman) Brett Lawrieís first month in the majors?

Heís been a monster. We expected him to be that kind of a player and that kind of a hitter. The path with us would have been another year, two years to get to the big leagues. Heís a very determined, very driven individual. We maybe underestimated that a little bit.

I think itís good for him to be in Toronto ó great for him, great for the franchise, great for the city, great for the country. It was a situation thatís worked well for both of our clubs at this point.

(Shaun Marcum, the pitcher traded by the Jays for Lawrie, is 13-7 with a 3.31 ERA, best in their starting rotation.)

Obviously, Brettís going to have a long, successful career. Thereís no doubt heís a 30/30 guy. Heís going to be an all-star. Iím sure thereís a lot of people looking back on the first round of that year and thinking Brett Lawrie may be the best pick in that first round.

(Considering that 2008 first round included Giants catcher and í10 NL rookie of the year Buster Posey and Royals first baseman Eric Hosmer, thatís saying something.)

Would you do that trade again?

Itís all about the timing of where your franchise is at a certain time. We went into the off-season knowing we had to get two quality pitchers. We had this window of opportunity to try to win here. We knew we were going to have to give up some quality prospects to get some pitching, and we were prepared to do that.


At the time, I wrote that many considered Lawrie headed to either a corner infield or corner outfield spot. It appears Toronto already has decided his future is at third base. Lawrie has the bat to play third but is not a home-run hitter per se.


Melvin noted the Brewers have a "very good, young" second baseman in Eric Farris who excelled in the Arizona Fall League this year. And he indicated it was no sure thing that Lawrie would have stayed at second base, where many scouts felt he was defensively challenged.

http://www.jsonline.com/blogs/sports/brewers.html?tag=Brett+Lawrie

http://www.thestar.com/sports/baseball/article/1057595--no-regrets-on-trade-for-monster-lawrie-says-brewers-canadian-gm

I could be wrong but i dont have a strong sense that the Brewers had any idea that Lawrie could have been an average third basemen and in my opinion if they did then i think they would have kept him.

2009mvp
02-05-2012, 10:31 PM
[QUOTE=jeremysiron;20848596]

I wasnt talking about the Brewers ability to see what he could have turned into in terms potential. But they were sure what position to stick him at as they had his possible positions filled with Fielder at 1B, Weeks at 2B, Hart in RF and Braun in LF.

I am know that Lawrie could not have been a SS, CF or C. I am sure the Brewers did not think he could be a 3B because if they knew he could have been a superstar at 3B then i am sure they would have kept him and used other assets to get another starter instead of Marcum.

I am not claiming the Brewers got ripped off. I think both teams came out really well in the trade and both teams got what they wanted. Every knew that Lawrie was a special talent but like most teams (Jays excluded) they did not know where he would end up and they did not know he would be a potential star. Had the Brewers knew that he could be competent at 3B then i am sure they would have kept him.







http://www.jsonline.com/blogs/sports/brewers.html?tag=Brett+Lawrie

http://www.thestar.com/sports/baseball/article/1057595--no-regrets-on-trade-for-monster-lawrie-says-brewers-canadian-gm

I could be wrong but i dont have a strong sense that the Brewers had any idea that Lawrie could have been an average third basemen and in my opinion if they did then i think they would have kept him.

Do we know that he'll be competent at third? A super-athletic 21 year old can look good in a lot of situations in the short period of time we saw him for, the question is whether he can stick there longterm. Looks good for now, but there still have to be some concerns.

the_jon
02-05-2012, 10:52 PM
Adonys Cardona

superfio
02-06-2012, 12:22 AM
Watched drew Hutchison on YouTube for 30 minutes

All I can say is he looks 80% like Marcum

His look, frame, windup and even gestures was like Marcum's younger brother

So wanna see him up and pitch against brewers and Marcum in mid-season or hey, world series

Love it to happen

phillipmike
02-06-2012, 01:11 AM
Do we know that he'll be competent at third? A super-athletic 21 year old can look good in a lot of situations in the short period of time we saw him for, the question is whether he can stick there longterm. Looks good for now, but there still have to be some concerns.

It is true we wont know for sure but based on what he showed us last season i would bet that he is vs. that he is not.

tazsub3
02-06-2012, 04:59 AM
mcGowan lol

If mcGowan lives up to expectations and plus he has a fresh arm as well, he could very well be the missing puzzle piece the Jays are looking for - we're not expecting it but it could come true.

Romero
Morrow
Alvarez
McGowan
Cecil/Drabek -comeback kids?

IN fact i so much agree with you, that i think that McGowen is a key to the jays contending this year (wild card before i am lynched)
he pitches to his pre injury potential, and this team with its deap and good bullpen is right up there

Krylian
02-06-2012, 12:07 PM
Adonys Cardona

I think he's gonna have a big year too.

StealingSigns
02-07-2012, 02:03 AM
Adonys Cardona


I think he's gonna have a big year too.

Love this pick. I think he is 2013's "Alvarez" though, not 2012. He has to figure out how to miss some more bats though: His hits per 9, coupled with the walks, kind've negates his great k rate.

jaysalltheway89
02-07-2012, 02:52 AM
where was alvarez rated on the jays prospect list going into the season last year?

StealingSigns
02-07-2012, 02:59 AM
where was alvarez rated on the jays prospect list going into the season last year?

#20, according to Sickels (C+).

http://www.minorleagueball.com/2010/11/22/1828748/toronto-blue-jays-top-20-prospects-for-2011

phillipmike
02-07-2012, 04:18 PM
I am going to add Jenkins to my list. Everyone forgot about him as a former first rounder only a few years ago in 2009.

Has not be great but he gets the job done.