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phillipmike
01-31-2012, 01:31 PM
Alex Anthopoulos hinted last night that some young Blue Jays drew trade interest this offseason, and Jeff Blair of the Globe and Mail has the details on some talks that never materialized. The Blue Jays and Mariners discussed Michael Pineda, but the Blue Jays balked when the Mariners wanted Brett Lawrie in return for the right-hander, according to Blair's sources.

http://www.mlbtraderumors.com/2012/01/blue-jays-turned-down-pineda-for-lawrie-swap.html

StayOnBoard
01-31-2012, 01:36 PM
But... wait.... I thought the Jays could have gotten him without including Lawrie? I think one poster even guaranteed that and said something like Gose+d'Arnaud would have gotten it done.

Hmmm.... not sure I buy this report, especially not when so many knowledgeable Jays posters came forth after this trade happened with New York.

Do I need a #sarcasm here or ?

idrinkpepsi
01-31-2012, 01:38 PM
Well thank god that didn't happen

Sanyo
01-31-2012, 01:40 PM
I wouldnt have given up d'Arnaud since he's got potential to be an everyday all star catcher for years. Pineda would be awesome but one man doesnt make your rotation, a good solid defensive catcher with a good bat is as rare as anything in baseball.

Gose and maybe McGuire I would have done the deal for Pineda...thats if the Mariners would have accepted -- but judging from wanting Lawrie and getting Montero it seemed like they wanted a big bat and besides Lawrie (and Bautista which would also include raping the Mariners farm system) the Jays really have none right now...

Kelly Gruber
01-31-2012, 01:50 PM
Pretty much what I figured. The Mariners weren't really trying to move Pineda, just saw it as an opportunity to get a young impact bat in their line-up. And that was the only way they were going to deal him. I doubt any package of youngsters would have made them pull the trigger.

AA made the right choice here I beleive...

Sanyo
01-31-2012, 01:58 PM
Pineda straight out was not every good against big hitter lineups -- against the Jays he had 2 bad outings out of 3, bad ones against the Yanks, Tigers. Horrible ones against Anaheim and Boston. He seemed to do well against lowly teams like Minnesota, Baltimore, TB (hitting wise suck), Oakland, etc.

StayOnBoard
01-31-2012, 02:02 PM
Pineda straight out was not every good against big hitter lineups -- against the Jays he had 2 bad outings out of 3, bad ones against the Yanks, Tigers. Horrible ones against Anaheim and Boston. He seemed to do well against lowly teams like Minnesota, Baltimore, TB (hitting wise suck), Oakland, etc.

:confused:

Sanyo
01-31-2012, 02:07 PM
:confused:

TB was 15th in runs, 27th in hits, 25th in team avg. What helps them is their walks which is 4th which is how they actually win (along with pitching which is their main advantage).

StayOnBoard
01-31-2012, 02:11 PM
TB was 15th in runs, 27th in hits, 25th in team avg. What helps them is their walks which is 4th which is how they actually win (along with pitching which is their main advantage).

Right... so you can't say their hitting sucks, because it most surely does not.

Longoria, Jennings and Zobrist are all studs
BJ Upton, Matt Joyce and Casey Kotchman (now will be Carlos Pena) are good (but average) players
If you want to say Sean Rodriguez and John Jaso suck, sure, I'll completely agree... but we were trotting out guys like Jayson Nix and Corey Patterson last year as well....

The Rays certainly don't have a ****** lineup, they may not be as deep as say Boston or New York but they can most certainly put runs on the board (and more importantly they play smart baseball).

scottythegreat1
01-31-2012, 02:13 PM
a better hitter is worth more than a better pitcher in the AL East.

2009mvp
01-31-2012, 02:14 PM
People forget that 2011 was basically supposed to be Pineda just getting his feet wet at the big league level. Instead he threw 150+ quality innings. Not saying I would have dealt Lawrie for him, but don't forget just how young and how talented this kid is.

miller74
01-31-2012, 02:15 PM
But... wait.... I thought the Jays could have gotten him without including Lawrie? I think one poster even guaranteed that and said something like Gose+d'Arnaud would have gotten it done.

Hmmm.... not sure I buy this report, especially not when so many knowledgeable Jays posters came forth after this trade happened with New York.

Do I need a #sarcasm here or ?

haha well done

TO Rapz
01-31-2012, 02:31 PM
A good no-trade here from AA if this is indeed true. However Pineda is just nasty at such a young age.

Bombtista
01-31-2012, 03:02 PM
Right... so you can't say their hitting sucks, because it most surely does not.

Longoria, Jennings and Zobrist are all studs
BJ Upton, Matt Joyce and Casey Kotchman (now will be Carlos Pena) are good (but average) players
If you want to say Sean Rodriguez and John Jaso suck, sure, I'll completely agree... but we were trotting out guys like Jayson Nix and Corey Patterson last year as well....

The Rays certainly don't have a ****** lineup, they may not be as deep as say Boston or New York but they can most certainly put runs on the board (and more importantly they play smart baseball).

Sure he can say the Rays have a weak offense in comparison to the rest of the AL east. They also have the best pitching in the league which more than compensates for their less than stellar offense.

Position by position the Rays have no advantage over us.

Catcher- Jp Arencibia vs Jose Molina. We know first hand about these guys and I know i'm happier seeing Arencibia on our side.

1B- Adam Lind vs Carlos Pena. Our biggest position of need. Only hope is that he reverts to 2009 form, otherwise its a clear advantage Rays.

2B- Ben Zobrist vs Kelly Johnson. Another position of strength for the Rays but Kelly is no slouch either. Both players will hover around an .800 OPS with 20ish home runs with above average second base production. Still advantage Rays.

SS- Yunel Escobar vs Sean Rodriguez. All signs point to advantage Jays

3B- Evan Longoria Vs Brett Lawrie- Using the Rotochamp projections on Fangraphs the difference between Longo and Lawrie isn't as astronomical as you might think. Both players are in for great years next year. Slight advantage Rays.

LF- Eric Thames vs Desmond Jennings. Advantage Rays. Still a breakout from either Thames or Snider would make it closer.

CF- Colby Rasmus vs BJ Upton- Maybe im the minority but I think we are in better shape considering Upton is likely gone next season. Plus its time to expect something to give with our young players aside from Lawrie.

RF- Jose Bautista vs Matt Joyce- Advantage Jays.

Rays Rotation >> Jays rotation
Jays bullpen > Rays bullpen

Thats compared to a current 4th place team. It looks even more lopsided against the real powerhouses in the AL east at least right now.

BlueJaysFan
01-31-2012, 03:06 PM
I am glad that trade did not happen

StayOnBoard
01-31-2012, 03:14 PM
Sure he can say the Rays have a weak offense in comparison to the rest of the AL east. They also have the best pitching in the league which more than compensates for their less than stellar offense.

Position by position the Rays have no advantage over us.

Catcher- Jp Arencibia vs Jose Molina. We know first hand about these guys and I know i'm happier seeing Arencibia on our side.

1B- Adam Lind vs Carlos Pena. Our biggest position of need. Only hope is that he reverts to 2009 form, otherwise its a clear advantage Rays.

2B- Ben Zobrist vs Kelly Johnson. Another position of strength for the Rays but Kelly is no slouch either. Both players will hover around an .800 OPS with 20ish home runs with above average second base production. Still advantage Rays.

SS- Yunel Escobar vs Sean Rodriguez. All signs point to advantage Jays

3B- Evan Longoria Vs Brett Lawrie- Using the Rotochamp projections on Fangraphs the difference between Longo and Lawrie isn't as astronomical as you might think. Both players are in for great years next year. Slight advantage Rays.

LF- Eric Thames vs Desmond Jennings. Advantage Rays. Still a breakout from either Thames or Snider would make it closer.

CF- Colby Rasmus vs BJ Upton- Maybe im the minority but I think we are in better shape considering Upton is likely gone next season. Plus its time to expect something to give with our young players aside from Lawrie.

RF- Jose Bautista vs Matt Joyce- Advantage Jays.

Rays Rotation >> Jays rotation
Jays bullpen > Rays bullpen

Thats compared to a current 4th place team. It looks even more lopsided against the real powerhouses in the AL east at least right now.

I'm not sure the point you were trying to make.... first, the Jays have one of the better offenses in the AL, and second, you just said "Position by position the Rays have no advantage over us" and yet, you went on to give the Rays an edge in MANY of their positional battles. Contradiction for the win?

Catcher- Jp Arencibia vs Jose Molina. Obviously JPA is better than Molina, but the Rays don't have a future catcher and let's be realistic, it's not like JPA is some stud who's going to be an all-star at his position. Advantage Jays

1B- Adam Lind vs Carlos Pena. This isn't even close - Carlos Pena is miles better than Adam Lind. Advantage Rays

2B- Ben Zobrist vs Kelly Johnson. This isn't very close either, Ben Zobrist, the most under rated player in baseball. Advantage Rays

SS- Yunel Escobar vs Sean Rodriguez. All signs point to advantage Jays (and rightfully so... I wasn't going to do a breakdown of the Jays vs Rays positional players, just that the Rays' lineup doesn't "suck"... you are proving my point, so I should just let you continue). Advantage Jays

3B- Evan Longoria Vs Brett Lawrie - Lawrie is awesome and will be a star player but you can't say he's better than Longoria right now. Advantage Rays

LF- Eric Thames vs Desmond Jennings. Advantage Rays. Still a breakout from either Thames or Snider would make it closer (no it wouldn't).... Advantage Rays

CF- Colby Rasmus vs BJ Upton - This one is a bit of a wash as Im not a huge fan of Upton, but regardless, he's still has shown and proven more than Rasmus. Advantage Rays

RF- Jose Bautista vs Matt Joyce- Advantage Jays (obviously) :)

Rays easily beat us in 5 of 9... and in the same sentence he said the Jays are a top offensive team while the Rays (and I quote...) "suck".

Simply not true at all - but thanks for re-enforcing my point.

Bombtista
01-31-2012, 03:24 PM
I'm not sure the point you were trying to make.... first, the Jays have one of the better offenses in the AL, and second, you just said "Position by position the Rays have no advantage over us" and yet, you went on to give the Rays an edge in MANY of their positional battles. Contradiction for the win?

Catcher- Jp Arencibia vs Jose Molina. Obviously JPA is better than Molina, but the Rays don't have a future catcher and let's be realistic, it's not like JPA is some stud who's going to be an all-star at his position. Advantage Jays

1B- Adam Lind vs Carlos Pena. This isn't even close - Carlos Pena is miles better than Adam Lind. Advantage Rays

2B- Ben Zobrist vs Kelly Johnson. This isn't very close either, Ben Zobrist, the most under rated player in baseball. Advantage Rays

SS- Yunel Escobar vs Sean Rodriguez. All signs point to advantage Jays (and rightfully so... I wasn't going to do a breakdown of the Jays vs Rays positional players, just that the Rays' lineup doesn't "suck"... you are proving my point, so I should just let you continue). Advantage Jays

3B- Evan Longoria Vs Brett Lawrie - Lawrie is awesome and will be a star player but you can't say he's better than Longoria right now. Advantage Rays

LF- Eric Thames vs Desmond Jennings. Advantage Rays. Still a breakout from either Thames or Snider would make it closer (no it wouldn't).... Advantage Rays

CF- Colby Rasmus vs BJ Upton - This one is a bit of a wash as Im not a huge fan of Upton, but regardless, he's still has shown and proven more than Rasmus. Advantage Rays

RF- Jose Bautista vs Matt Joyce- Advantage Jays (obviously) :)

Rays easily beat us in 5 of 9... and in the same sentence he said the Jays are a top offensive team while the Rays (and I quote...) "suck".

Simply not true at all - but thanks for re-enforcing my point.

Keep in mind that was a comparison to the Jays just for the fun of the discussion. The Jays aren't the go to team when trying to find the elite players within the east. Compared to a fouth place team they are by no means the clear winner even in this case.

The Rays are a great team that is always somehow the underdog when they shouldn't even be. Still they are sustained by their pitching and after next season many of these comparisons could go the other way in our favor.

I think in one more season it will be much clearer to us fans what our entirely changed team within the last two years can really do.

Rasmus, Snider, Lind, d'Arnaud, Lawrie are all capable a big seasons that could mean playoffs for us.

Twitchy
01-31-2012, 03:25 PM
I'm not sure the point you were trying to make.... first, the Jays have one of the better offenses in the AL, and second, you just said "Position by position the Rays have no advantage over us" and yet, you went on to give the Rays an edge in MANY of their positional battles. Contradiction for the win?

Catcher- Jp Arencibia vs Jose Molina. Obviously JPA is better than Molina, but the Rays don't have a future catcher and let's be realistic, it's not like JPA is some stud who's going to be an all-star at his position. Advantage Jays

1B- Adam Lind vs Carlos Pena. This isn't even close - Carlos Pena is miles better than Adam Lind. Advantage Rays

2B- Ben Zobrist vs Kelly Johnson. This isn't very close either, Ben Zobrist, the most under rated player in baseball. Advantage Rays

SS- Yunel Escobar vs Sean Rodriguez. All signs point to advantage Jays (and rightfully so... I wasn't going to do a breakdown of the Jays vs Rays positional players, just that the Rays' lineup doesn't "suck"... you are proving my point, so I should just let you continue). Advantage Jays

3B- Evan Longoria Vs Brett Lawrie - Lawrie is awesome and will be a star player but you can't say he's better than Longoria right now. Advantage Rays

LF- Eric Thames vs Desmond Jennings. Advantage Rays. Still a breakout from either Thames or Snider would make it closer (no it wouldn't).... Advantage Rays

CF- Colby Rasmus vs BJ Upton - This one is a bit of a wash as Im not a huge fan of Upton, but regardless, he's still has shown and proven more than Rasmus. Advantage Rays

RF- Jose Bautista vs Matt Joyce- Advantage Jays (obviously) :)

Rays easily beat us in 5 of 9... and in the same sentence he said the Jays are a top offensive team while the Rays (and I quote...) "suck".

Simply not true at all - but thanks for re-enforcing my point.

The Rays may have an advantage in more spots, but it's the degree of the advantage that counts.

C - I don't like Arencibia but over a full season he's much better than Molina.
SS - Huge advantage for the Jays as TB SS is pretty lousy.
3B - Longoria is better, but might not be by as much as you'd think.
LF - Fairly decent advantage for Rays
RF - This is probably the biggest advantage in any spot for either team.

I get what you're trying to do/say but yeah. These X>Y comparisons just aren't good at proving points.

Bombtista
01-31-2012, 03:34 PM
The Rays may have an advantage in more spots, but it's the degree of the advantage that counts.

C - I don't like Arencibia but over a full season he's much better than Molina.
SS - Huge advantage for the Jays as TB SS is pretty lousy.
3B - Longoria is better, but might not be by as much as you'd think.
LF - Fairly decent advantage for Rays
RF - This is probably the biggest advantage in any spot for either team.

I get what you're trying to do/say but yeah. These X>Y comparisons just aren't good at proving points.

Right. The advantage gained by having Arencibia, Bautista and Escobar over Molina, Joyce and Rodriguez makes up a lot of ground on the quantity of better Rays players.

The difference between Johnson/Zobrist and Lawrie/Longo isn't as wide as those other comparisons.

StayOnBoard
01-31-2012, 03:35 PM
The Rays may have an advantage in more spots, but it's the degree of the advantage that counts.

C - I don't like Arencibia but over a full season he's much better than Molina.
SS - Huge advantage for the Jays as TB SS is pretty lousy.
3B - Longoria is better, but might not be by as much as you'd think.
LF - Fairly decent advantage for Rays
RF - This is probably the biggest advantage in any spot for either team.

I get what you're trying to do/say but yeah. These X>Y comparisons just aren't good at proving points.

I agree with you - I was replying to another post saying how the Rays offense is garbage (and it's not).

Then there was a direct comparison to the Jays, saying how "the Rays have no advantage over us on any positional player" and followed that by stating "the Rays have an advantage over us in most every position". It was mainly for fun, I don't like doing that type of breakdown either (as you said, Escobar is miles better than anything the Rays will pull out for an SS this year) but to say the Rays are a terrible offense just isn't true at all.

dtmagnet
01-31-2012, 05:30 PM
Lawrie is untouchable IMO.

T.O. Fan
01-31-2012, 05:31 PM
So now all those pacifiers can go away ;)

Vampirate
01-31-2012, 05:48 PM
Unless it was for a proven ace I would not trade someone like Lawrie.

Even though pitching is extremely important, to me a position player is worth more than a pitcher.

AA09-?
01-31-2012, 05:58 PM
Lawrie is untouchable IMO.

Yah, I'd say so. At least, at this point.

BATSKY87
01-31-2012, 06:05 PM
http://www.mlbtraderumors.com/2012/01/blue-jays-turned-down-pineda-for-lawrie-swap.html

I hate to break it to you but this not even close to news. If you read the Jeff Blair article all this is was speculation. Blair is inferring this from a comment that Anthopolous made about making a trade that would have looked bad by mid-season.

Here is the quote from the article:

"Monday was an attempt to build it back up, with Anthopoulos getting in the act and stating clearly that a particular trade he didnít make Ė letís take a wild stab here, folks, and say it was for Seattle Mariners pitcher Michael Pineda Ė fell apart because the other team wanted a major-league-ready player off the Blue Jays roster

(Several sources say that player was third baseman Brett Lawrie; the Blue Jays balked and instead the Mariners did some good business with the New York Yankees, landing catcher Jesus Montero."

Let's take a wild stab here and say that this was a way for Blair to spice up an article he had to write about the state of the union address. An event that didnt tell us anything we didnt already know.

This is not even a discussion thread worth keeping open.

town123
01-31-2012, 06:09 PM
^^ That's fine and all, but if your the M's ofcourse you would want Lawrie for Pineda.

Even though I think the Spanks got the best of the deal, based on the minor league arm swap, Montero should slug for Seattle.

Farsight
01-31-2012, 06:46 PM
I hate to break it to you but this not even close to news. If you read the Jeff Blair article all this is was speculation. Blair is inferring this from a comment that Anthopolous made about making a trade that would have looked bad by mid-season.

Here is the quote from the article:

"Monday was an attempt to build it back up, with Anthopoulos getting in the act and stating clearly that a particular trade he didnít make Ė letís take a wild stab here, folks, and say it was for Seattle Mariners pitcher Michael Pineda Ė fell apart because the other team wanted a major-league-ready player off the Blue Jays roster

(Several sources say that player was third baseman Brett Lawrie; the Blue Jays balked and instead the Mariners did some good business with the New York Yankees, landing catcher Jesus Montero."

Let's take a wild stab here and say that this was a way for Blair to spice up an article he had to write about the state of the union address. An event that didnt tell us anything we didnt already know.

This is not even a discussion thread worth keeping open. I dont really know how its not a thread worth keeping open. Many posters were upset that the jays didn't go after Pineda. This shows that the jays had interest, but the cost was to high. Its always good to partake in discuss. While this might not be the most news worth thread, this is the offseason. Its a nice change of pace from those "the state of the bluejays" or "rogers is cheap because we didnt sign field", etc

Sanyo
01-31-2012, 09:56 PM
Brewers somewhat regretting giving up Lawrie now, not sure of the headache he caused but he would be a perfect replacement for Fielder's bat (he'll be good, dont worry)...

nithanyo
01-31-2012, 10:00 PM
A similar thread was made when the Rios for Lincecum trade fell through(I was like many fans happy we kept Rios)... We all know how that turned out

Farsight
01-31-2012, 10:22 PM
A similar thread was made when the Rios for Lincecum trade fell through(I was like many fans happy we kept Rios)... We all know how that turned out Hindsight is 20/20. He played amazingly well in toronto from 2006-2008. I was happy we kept rios, at the time was was a young emerging player with loads of talent who was performing at a high level. No one knew that Lincecum would be the ace that he is now, there was always question marks about future injuries because of his delivery

Sanyo
01-31-2012, 11:48 PM
Hindsight is 20/20. He played amazingly well in toronto from 2006-2008. I was happy we kept rios, at the time was was a young emerging player with loads of talent who was performing at a high level. No one knew that Lincecum would be the ace that he is now, there was always question marks about future injuries because of his delivery

Even in 2010 Rios had a respectable .284/.334/.457. 21 hrs, 88 rbis. Decent production for him, not great by any stretch but he still can be good, its a matter of motivation for him...he probably should play harder now considering his last two years are team option years and the likelihood he would ever see $12.5 mil anywhere else is none...

bomber0104
02-01-2012, 12:35 AM
should have been pretty obvious

The Mariners wanted a stud position player than can hit in the middle of their lineup this season.. Lawrie is the only player we got that fits this mold

Farsight
02-01-2012, 01:24 AM
i prefer a stud positional player over a stud pitcher

Raps08-09 Champ
02-01-2012, 02:41 AM
I like the guy but I like Lawrie more.

dballss
02-01-2012, 11:03 AM
is montero really that much better than d'arnaud? how come we didn't offer one of our top pitchers and d'arnaud, imo thats a better package than yanks...jeeze pineda has ace potential, and a elite starter > elite positional player any day

Twitchy
02-01-2012, 11:06 AM
is montero really that much better than d'arnaud? how come we didn't offer one of our top pitchers and d'arnaud, imo thats a better package than yanks...jeeze pineda has ace potential, and a elite starter > elite positional player any day

Montero's bat is significantly better than D'Arnaud's and Seattle's offence is non-existent. They wanted the superior bat over the all around player. They have a ton of pitching depth and need bats and that's why they would have gone with Montero over D'Arnaud & a pitcher.

Montero's only better if he can stick at C. As a DH he won't be as valuable overall as D'Arnaud. But Montero is considered the more elite prospect.

BATSKY87
02-01-2012, 11:49 AM
I dont really know how its not a thread worth keeping open. Many posters were upset that the jays didn't go after Pineda. This shows that the jays had interest, but the cost was to high. Its always good to partake in discuss. While this might not be the most news worth thread, this is the offseason. Its a nice change of pace from those "the state of the bluejays" or "rogers is cheap because we didnt sign field", etc

You obviously completely missed the point of my post. This was not a real rumor to begin with. Blair was speculating based on the fact that Anthopolous said that he could have made a trade that would have looked bad by mid-season. That could have been anyone traded this off season (Cahill, Gonzalez, Latos etc...) Never once was Pineda's name brought. This doesn't show at all that they had any interest. Blair completely made this up.

nithanyo
02-01-2012, 12:08 PM
i prefer a stud positional player over a stud pitcher

25 year old Halladay or a 25 year old Pujols

Personally id go with good pitching over good hitting any day.

AA09-?
02-01-2012, 12:11 PM
25 year old Halladay or a 25 year old Pujols

Personally id go with good pitching over good hitting any day.

I don't think you could lose either way. Both had monster years at that age, but was Albert really 25 in 2005?

Sanyo
02-01-2012, 12:21 PM
25 year old Halladay or a 25 year old Pujols

Personally id go with good pitching over good hitting any day.

Albert's won 2 WS -- Halladay none.

Not to say it means anything but Pujols contributes everyday, Halladay every five days -- and trust me if you read some of my posts Im actually a huge advocate of pitching and using them as pieces to get other assets back (and we saw this off-season how valuable pitching was on the trade market). Pitching is like the defense of baseball -- sometimes underrated but certainly helps to win you divisions and sometimes championships (like the Giants in 2010).

But 25 year old Pujols anyday over 25 year old Halladay...just my opinion...

StayOnBoard
02-01-2012, 12:46 PM
Albert's won 2 WS -- Halladay none.

Not to say it means anything but Pujols contributes everyday, Halladay every five days -- and trust me if you read some of my posts Im actually a huge advocate of pitching and using them as pieces to get other assets back (and we saw this off-season how valuable pitching was on the trade market). Pitching is like the defense of baseball -- sometimes underrated but certainly helps to win you divisions and sometimes championships (like the Giants in 2010).

But 25 year old Pujols anyday over 25 year old Halladay...just my opinion...

This is how I look at it too... I'd rather a guy who plays everyday than a guy who pitches every 5th day. Therefore, I'd most certainly take a stud positional player over a stud pitcher.

Granted, you can't REALLY go wrong with either as they're both great players, but in baseball I feel you have to maximize everything and that's by having your best players actually PLAY every single day.

If I was building a baseball team from scratch - I'd take a positional player first everytime.

nstojic
02-01-2012, 01:06 PM
montero or lawrie? (montero or lawrie?)

wamco
02-02-2012, 09:05 AM
ya, cant do lawrie for pineda, and I love pineda