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fatkev78
01-30-2012, 11:52 AM
Watch it live at 6:30 ET: http://www.sportsnet.ca/baseball/blue-jays-state-of-the-franchise/

phillipmike
01-30-2012, 12:24 PM
Should be interesting i will take a look when it starts.

Wonder if we will see some whinny fans crying about not spending.

Sanyo
01-30-2012, 02:43 PM
Most people don't know this but I am also a part-time fortune teller -- here is a transcript of what's to come tonight:

Fan: Why didnt you get Prince Fielder?

AA: Money

Fan: Why didnt you get Yu Darvish?

AA: Money

Fan: Why didnt you get CJ Wilson?

AA: Money -- oh and dont have palm trees in Toronto

Fan: why didn you ---

AA: MONEY! GOSH PEOPLE WE GET REVENUE SHARING MONEY TO THE TUNE OF CLOSE TO $30 MILLION! IT GOES STRAIGHT TO MOHAMMAD'S SECRET GAMBLING PROBLEM! SCREW ROGERS I CANT DO THIS, IM GOING TO THE YANKEES -- I QUIT!

Sanyo
01-30-2012, 02:55 PM
^ Im all for prospects, thats for the cynic fan out there.

wamco
01-30-2012, 03:08 PM
"lots of balls in the air"

2009mvp
01-30-2012, 03:19 PM
I love the ripping of fans who spend their hard earned money on season tix. They did their part, yet Joe-Blow internet poster feels the need to call them all kinds of names for expecting the franchise to do theirs? They're paying to watch the Toronto Blue Jays compete, not the Fishercats or the Jays who play in Dunedin.

craigerlee
01-30-2012, 04:30 PM
I love the ripping of fans who spend their hard earned money on season tix. They did their part, yet Joe-Blow internet poster feels the need to call them all kinds of names for expecting the franchise to do theirs? They're paying to watch the Toronto Blue Jays compete, not the Fishercats or the Jays who play in Dunedin.

Exactly, regardless of whether the season ticket holders are right or wrong about how the franchise is run. They've earned the right to ask the question when is the money going to be spent and is all the revenue sharing and TV money being allocated to the team.

fatkev78
01-30-2012, 04:49 PM
Jays do not receive revenue sharing like they used to thanks to the new CBA.

lmallia
01-30-2012, 06:00 PM
I went to this a couple years ago and AA is so politically correct up on stage but when you get him 1 on 1 after he is so much more candid. He truly is a die hard baseball guy. I loved it when he told me he thought Rios was "afraid of the RF wall".

craigerlee
01-30-2012, 06:02 PM
Jays do not receive revenue sharing like they used to thanks to the new CBA.

Pretty sure we still get revenue sharing till 2015 depending on our annual revenues. After that its based on market size.

fatkev78
01-30-2012, 06:23 PM
Yes, Jays will get some revenue sharing until 2015 (then they'll be completely done), but I believe it will be reduced.

TorontoSportFan
01-30-2012, 06:24 PM
I love the ripping of fans who spend their hard earned money on season tix. They did their part, yet Joe-Blow internet poster feels the need to call them all kinds of names for expecting the franchise to do theirs? They're paying to watch the Toronto Blue Jays compete, not the Fishercats or the Jays who play in Dunedin.

Bingo!
Exactly why I cancelled mine.

Jays Claw
01-30-2012, 06:33 PM
I can't wait for AA and Beeston to use the same excuses J.P Riccardi used back in '08-09. I understand the fact that this team isn't a player away. However, to constantly use that as an excuse to go along with pushing the Jays' year of contention every year (eg. we were supposed to be contenders through '10-12 according to management back in '09), isn't what us fans want.

masTOR_shake1
01-30-2012, 07:20 PM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SR3AsclFP1w

gelgameks = fan's expectations

Jays Claw
01-30-2012, 07:47 PM
Buck Martinez is a horrible host. This guy can never get to the point.

purplehaze89
01-30-2012, 08:11 PM
Are these fans ********? Worst questions of all time. Ever.

purplehaze89
01-30-2012, 08:11 PM
Someone slap them. ''Comment on the Canadian content''. Who the eff cares. Get on AA and Beeston about the lack of movement.

jaysnraptors44
01-30-2012, 08:14 PM
That guy was at the opening day game against the white sox and doesn't know that we have a canadian on our team ? these fans sound clueless

purplehaze89
01-30-2012, 08:16 PM
''I look at Alex and I feel like I'm watching a winner.'' Is this a circle jerk? Follow up on that question about how the team is going to field a contender and expect to increase revenue as a result when they have basically the exact same team on the field.

purplehaze89
01-30-2012, 08:20 PM
Very easy questions:

Why is Adam Lind our 1B when he OPSed at the bottom of the league.

Why did AA misjudge the market on every single young pitcher out there.

Why is Thames still our starting LF.

Why is Morrow still expected to be a no. 2.

Etc. Etc.

These fans are letting these guys WAY off the hook with softball stupid questions.

jaysnraptors44
01-30-2012, 08:23 PM
Exactly ^ only one person who said he would of came with a shirt but didnt find a fielder shirt has asked a tough question all the rest sound soft and letting rogers just run away with this .. these questions are so stupid

DocJayzSpikx
01-30-2012, 08:24 PM
LOL "why are you wearing a tigers shirt", priceless

jaysnraptors44
01-30-2012, 08:25 PM
inter league play what a wasted question

jaysnraptors44
01-30-2012, 08:26 PM
I would love someone to ask Why didn't we commit to Fielder knowing that Lind has been crap these past 2 years and knowing that Bautista and Fielder would make a good 3-4 punch

DocJayzSpikx
01-30-2012, 08:27 PM
^ agreed, there letting them off easy

mtf
01-30-2012, 08:31 PM
Oh good, they gave the mic to a girl who was a "super fan" and she just talked about clothes.

jaysnraptors44
01-30-2012, 08:32 PM
Toronto fans just don't understand they complain about their team but continue to purchase season tickets when Rogers doesnt return the favor oh well the more money rogers money makes the less they care.

DeRozan10
01-30-2012, 08:34 PM
Oh good, they gave the mic to a girl who was a "super fan" and she just talked about clothes.

Lol

DeRozan10
01-30-2012, 08:35 PM
And major LOL at the fan who said we overpayed for Rasmus.

That Rasmus deal could end up an amazing deal.

We basically only gave up Marc Zep and Zach Stewart for him

mtf
01-30-2012, 08:37 PM
And major LOL at the fan who said we overpayed for Rasmus.

That Rasmus deal could end up an amazing deal.

We basically only gave up Marc Zep and Zach Stewart for him

That fan also suggested batting Lawrie lead-off.

DeRozan10
01-30-2012, 08:39 PM
Love hearing AA talk about the last 2 drafts have been like 5-6 drafts for the Jays.

DeRozan10
01-30-2012, 08:40 PM
That fan also suggested batting Lawrie lead-off.

I know haha.

I've seen it mentioned on here as well though

mtf
01-30-2012, 08:42 PM
I've seen it mentioned on here as well though

Yeah well, there are fans here predicting 95+ wins too. :rolleyes:

jaysnraptors44
01-30-2012, 08:43 PM
Whats wrong with that. I like that idea always have ... guy who as some speed and power and can get on base ... players like that who leadoff or Kinsler and Sizemore when he was healthy led off for the Indians .. whats the difference of Kinslers situation and Lawrie situation ?

masTOR_shake1
01-30-2012, 08:50 PM
i would love it if we got grass,,,lmao yea that was funny about the fem-"superfan" who asked about clothes. all in all, the questions were pretty soft and noone came out guns ablazing, a few guys were upset but surely a missed opportunity. imagine a psd jays forum discussion with the jays brass :o

MVP1
01-30-2012, 08:52 PM
I want someone there to actually ask tough questions

rapsjaysfan88
01-30-2012, 08:56 PM
you guys are funny. 'ask the tough questions'. you know the answers. why didn't we sign fielder or darvish? answer: because aa isnt stupid enough to commit 30 % payroll to a 400 pounder and over hyped prospect.

craigerlee
01-30-2012, 08:59 PM
Whats wrong with that. I like that idea always have ... guy who as some speed and power and can get on base ... players like that who leadoff or Kinsler and Sizemore when he was healthy led off for the Indians .. whats the difference of Kinslers situation and Lawrie situation ?

That lineup is gonna score runs regardless of where they hit Kinsler or Andrus, they could bat Kinsler 2nd and probably be just as good. Lets not pretend Ron Washington is genius for doing this. The reason were better off hitting Lawrie later is cause he's got more power than most players on this team and its gonna be wasted with JP Arencibia or Jeff Mathis hitting in front of him.

fatkev78
01-30-2012, 09:01 PM
I wonder who we offered more years and dollars to....
It would be amazing if they could get grass in the RC....
Sounded like Beeston was endorsing AA to take over for him when he retires...
I like the idea of NL rules at AL parks and vice versa the more I think about it...
oh, and the no replays due to the umps union needs to be fixed asap!
...just my thoughts.

jaysnraptors44
01-30-2012, 09:05 PM
That lineup is gonna score runs regardless of where they hit Kinsler or Andrus, they could bat Kinsler 2nd and probably be just as good. Lets not pretend Ron Washington is genius for doing this. The reason were better off hitting Lawrie later is cause he's got more power than most players on this team and its gonna be wasted with JP Arencibia or Jeff Mathis hitting in front of him.

Yes thats true .. I want lawrie somewhere in the 5-6-7 spot as well but I just wanna know why that idea is so amusing

rapsjaysfan88
01-30-2012, 09:06 PM
do away with that garbage astro turf please. its an eye sore and creates to many injuries.

Spiderdan22
01-30-2012, 09:06 PM
Sounded like Beeston was endorsing AA to take over for him when he retires...


AA as President and TLC as GM?

jaysnraptors44
01-30-2012, 09:08 PM
you guys are funny. 'ask the tough questions'. you know the answers. why didn't we sign fielder or darvish? answer: because aa isnt stupid enough to commit 30 % payroll to a 400 pounder and over hyped prospect.

That 400 pound player pretty much locked the tigers to win the central and gave them one of the best 3-4 punch out there and Darvish well lets just wait till the season starts before we call him a over hyped prospect

2009mvp
01-30-2012, 09:09 PM
That it sounds like Beltran had no interest in playing here sucks. That would have been awesome.

Seven Rhymes
01-30-2012, 09:11 PM
I hope that fans take something from session with AA's pretty candid comments on why the Jays didn't land a high profile free agent or make a huge trade. Hopefully this silences people who treat free agency like simply going to a grocery store and picking out what you want or that another team is simply going to trade you their best player without giving up value.

AA talked about how in a few cases they offered more money and term than what the player eventually signed for. He talked about players not wanting to play on turf, play the position the Jays wanted them to or that there are medical concerns for some players. On the trade front, teams were looking for the Jays to part with young talent at the majors league level (later he used Lawrie and Alvarez as examples) not just minor leaguers.

My single greatest frustration as a sports fan is when fellow fans get so bent out shape out why their team didn't go out and get every top player on the market and never look at their question on a deeper level.

I'll take a baker's dozen of Prince Fielder's to go please. *sigh*

craigerlee
01-30-2012, 09:15 PM
I wonder who we offered more years and dollars to....
It would be amazing if they could get grass in the RC....
Sounded like Beeston was endorsing AA to take over for him when he retires...
I like the idea of NL rules at AL parks and vice versa the more I think about it...
oh, and the no replays due to the umps union needs to be fixed asap!
...just my thoughts.

That would be sweet, I really think we underestimate how much turf hurts us when were trying land free agents that play the field.

phillipmike
01-30-2012, 09:19 PM
you guys are funny. 'ask the tough questions'. you know the answers. why didn't we sign fielder or darvish? answer: because aa isnt stupid enough to commit 30 % payroll to a 400 pounder and over hyped prospect.

I agree...

The 'tough questions' everyone wanted to be asked can be easily answered..

Fielder or Darvish? Way too much money.

Pineda, Latos, Gonzalez, and Cahill? The prices were astronomical and did not make much sense.

etc.

rapsjaysfan88
01-30-2012, 09:27 PM
That 400 pound player pretty much locked the tigers to win the central and gave them one of the best 3-4 punch out there and Darvish well lets just wait till the season starts before we call him a over hyped prospect

tigers are alock in that division with or without prince. you can honestly tell me that you think giving prince 9yrs 200 mil would have been good idea 4 the jays? if so you lose all baseball credibility in my eyes. you think paying 25% of the teams total payroll on a 400 pounder for the next decade whos one leg injury away from being useless is smart.. wow.. also giving 15 mil a year for 6 years to a guy whos never pitched in the majors.. lets just sign drabek to 100 mil contract because every scout seems to think hes a future number 1. how would that go over with the fans?

jaysnraptors44
01-30-2012, 09:46 PM
I never said giving 9 years to Fielder would be a good idea first off ^ but who the hell expects Fielder to give production in years 8 OR 9 even so Fielder is just 27 I think he can continue to produce for at least the next five years where he would still be in his prime at age 32. Your complaining about a guy whos over wieght but yet our first baseman who is in fit shape cant even have a OBP over .300 ... Also Fielder has never missed more then 5 games in his whole career .. It's just another season of watching other teams improve for the jays while we just sit back

masTOR_shake1
01-30-2012, 09:46 PM
you guys are funny. 'ask the tough questions'. you know the answers. why didn't we sign fielder or darvish? answer: because aa isnt stupid enough to commit 30 % payroll to a 400 pounder and over hyped prospect.

the tough questions are "why are the blue jays operating under sight tight restriction?". somebody brought it up before that it is a business anomaly that rogers would say, "show up, buy in and then we'll improve the product", where we would never see them say "more people need to buy our ****** cable before we improve it's capability". at the end of the day the teams that compete for world championships have ownership that is willing to do whatever it takes to compete (yanks, red sox, phillies, angels, tigers) and the jays just don't have that sort of backing from rogers, the question is why the hell not? paul beeston needs to make **** happen on behalf of the fanbase.

MVP1
01-30-2012, 09:51 PM
I never said giving 9 years to Fielder would be a good idea first off ^ but who the hell expects Fielder to give production in years 8 OR 9 even so Fielder is just 27 I think he can continue to produce for at least the next five years where he would still be in his prime at age 32. Your complaining about a guy whos over wieght but yet our first baseman who is in fit shape cant even have a OBP over .300 ... Also Fielder has never missed more then 5 games in his whole career .. It's just another season of watching other teams improve for the jays while we just sit back


tigers are alock in that division with or without prince. you can honestly tell me that you think giving prince 9yrs 200 mil would have been good idea 4 the jays? if so you lose all baseball credibility in my eyes. you think paying 25% of the teams total payroll on a 400 pounder for the next decade whos one leg injury away from being useless is smart.. wow.. also giving 15 mil a year for 6 years to a guy whos never pitched in the majors.. lets just sign drabek to 100 mil contract because every scout seems to think hes a future number 1. how would that go over with the fans?


You guys have similar names.

rapsjaysfan88
01-30-2012, 09:56 PM
the tough questions are "why are the blue jays operating under sight tight restriction?". somebody brought it up before that it is a business anomaly that rogers would say, "show up, buy in and then we'll improve the product", where we would never see them say "more people need to buy our ****** cable before we improve it's capability". at the end of the day the teams that compete for world championships have ownership that is willing to do whatever it takes to compete (yanks, red sox, phillies, angels, tigers) and the jays just don't have that sort of backing from rogers, the question is why the hell not? paul beeston needs to make **** happen on behalf of the fanbase.

your taking quotes out of context, beeston said payroll will rise with attendance rises from a winning product.

masTOR_shake1
01-30-2012, 10:00 PM
your taking quotes out of context, beeston said payroll will rise with attendance rises from a winning product.

uhmm ok? the point being that payroll increase is conditional upon fan support, that's the problem and a big one at that my friend.

rapsjaysfan88
01-30-2012, 10:05 PM
I never said giving 9 years to Fielder would be a good idea first off ^ but who the hell expects Fielder to give production in years 8 OR 9 even so Fielder is just 27 I think he can continue to produce for at least the next five years where he would still be in his prime at age 32. Your complaining about a guy whos over wieght but yet our first baseman who is in fit shape cant even have a OBP over .300 ... Also Fielder has never missed more then 5 games in his whole career .. It's just another season of watching other teams improve for the jays while we just sit back

well you keep harping on and on about not signing him so obviously to get him you would sign him 2 the contract demand. if you think a team thats bullpen blew 25 saves and was 10 games out of a playoff spot and in the offseason spent 10mil ish on said bullpen to turn it into one of the games best has done nothing to improve then you sir should go back 2 watching basketball because seriously I dont think you understand baseball.

rapsjaysfan88
01-30-2012, 10:07 PM
uhmm ok? the point being that payroll increase is conditional upon fan support, that's the problem and a big one at that my friend.


if you have 20,000 fans at the park do you think you can have a 150 mil payroll? answer: no

masTOR_shake1
01-30-2012, 10:15 PM
if you have 20,000 fans at the park do you think you can have a 150 mil payroll? answer: no

if you have a multi-billion dollar corporation owning the team, and the 4th largest market in the mlb (toronto alone) who's viewership and support spands an entire nation, i'd say it's very very feesable. again, do you think we would see "we need more people to buy our defective cable and internet before we fix it"?.

rapsjaysfan88
01-30-2012, 10:24 PM
our whole nation isnt even the size of the tristate area of new york and half the country only watches hockey. rogers didnt become bil company by blowing money. every team has a budget and thats our, like it or lump it. watch the yankees if you want to watch a bottomless pit of money.

ktownguy31
01-30-2012, 10:33 PM
you guys are funny. 'ask the tough questions'. you know the answers. why didn't we sign fielder or darvish? answer: because aa isnt stupid enough to commit 30 % payroll to a 400 pounder and over hyped prospect.

lol this!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

masTOR_shake1
01-30-2012, 10:43 PM
our whole nation isnt even the size of the tristate area of new york and half the country only watches hockey. rogers didnt become bil company by blowing money. every team has a budget and thats our, like it or lump it. watch the yankees if you want to watch a bottomless pit of money.

part of growing the brand and building it back up to what it used to be entails substancial investment, tell the blue jays fans of the early 90's who were smashing attendance records that we are a "small market". no one expects us to be the yankees, but come on we should be blowing the phillies, detroit and anahiem (orangecounty is small and cali has 5 teams) out of the water. no excuse, i think beeston needs to turn the screws a little bit more with ownership and why he isn't to the degree of showing tangable results is a question worth an answer. like bad government, the people need to hold the powers that be accountable or nothing will change.

craigerlee
01-30-2012, 11:00 PM
if you have 20,000 fans at the park do you think you can have a 150 mil payroll? answer: no

The fact remains Rogers pretty much came out and said they're not increasing payroll until fans start showing up. That's the wrong message to send. This was posted earlier by Wamco I believe its a quote from Bob Simpson Co-Chairman of the Rangers:

Winning comes first and then support comes. You can't ask fans to come to every game while you're losing and have them help you increase your revenues. You're trying to take it to a new level, a sustainable level, where it is a dynasty franchise like the Dallas Cowboys achieved. Then in the off-years, and inevitably you'll have some, they still support you.
ESPN (http://espn.go.com/dallas/mlb/story/_/id/7486862/texas-rangers-co-chairman-favors-keeping-josh-hamilton-signing-prince-fielder)

We've been losing for 18 years now you can't expect all fans to just start showing up cause there's something good brewing. Most fans need to see a winning product and its not there yet.

bomber0104
01-30-2012, 11:00 PM
Yeah i most Jays fans agree that the whole notion of "we will increase the payroll when the fans show up" is pretty stupid

i'm not advocating giving Fielder a 9 year deal but you got to spend some money to attract some fans. Rogers is a big enough company and the Jays have a big enough fan base for them to go the "spend to attract fans" route rather than the "fans come before money" road..

I might have been willing to stay the course but with the way MLB ****ed us with the new draft rules, our path need to be diverted to adjust to the new system

scaramantula
01-30-2012, 11:07 PM
part of growing the brand and building it back up to what it used to be entails substancial investment, tell the blue jays fans of the early 90's who were smashing attendance records that we are a "small market". no one expects us to be the yankees, but come on we should be blowing the phillies, detroit and anahiem (orangecounty is small and cali has 5 teams) out of the water. no excuse, i think beeston needs to turn the screws a little bit more with ownership and why he isn't to the degree of showing tangable results is a question worth an answer. like bad government, the people need to hold the powers that be accountable or nothing will change.

you must have forgotten but before we were selling out the skydome there was a good five years when they were building the team when they weren't spending mad cash, but when it got closer to the 90s and winning seemed possible we spent and we won and we got attendance, it not complicated.

and why would we spend money on free agents when we don't even know which positions are all ready filled, most of our team has less then 2 years experience, everyones talking like lawrie is a sure thing, i mean even romero and bautisa haven't been around long enough to know if they'll be on this team in 2 yrs

Sanyo
01-30-2012, 11:12 PM
Again I proved my point in some other post (not sure where now) but I showed how a guy like AJ Burnett or even Roy Halladay made virtually no difference whatsoever when they were here with attendance based on the average...so I hate when people say you have to spend money to get people to show up, it doesnt work that way. People show up because the team is winning, not because Prince Fielder or x or y is playing in Toronto. This isnt the NBA where maybe a guy like Kobe or Lebron can make a difference with attendance -- baseball is not a star driven league, if it was the Jays should have been near the top last year having Jose Bautista on the Jays (hey he did have a record 7.5 million votes for the All Star Game -- so I mean not sure what to say)...

scaramantula
01-30-2012, 11:16 PM
Again I proved my point in some other post (not sure where now) but I showed how a guy like AJ Burnett or even Roy Halladay made virtually no difference whatsoever when they were here with attendance based on the average...so I hate when people say you have to spend money to get people to show up, it doesnt work that way. People show up because the team is winning, not because Prince Fielder or x or y is playing in Toronto. This isnt the NBA where maybe a guy like Kobe or Lebron can make a difference with attendance -- baseball is not a star driven league, if it was we should have been near the top last year having Jose Bautista on our top (hey he did have a record 7.5 million votes for the All Star Game -- so I mean not sure what to say)...

you shouldnt compare players like fielder to pitchers, pitchers play like 15 games at home a year, baseball is absolutely a star driven league, why else would the yankees sell out everywhere they go, its just in baseball you cant have one man teams

Sanyo
01-30-2012, 11:17 PM
^ and yes Prince can make a difference a degree, but what happens if he gives out year 5 and you still have almost half of $214 mil to pay -- go tell SF who's had trouble getting players for the last few years cause of that disease Barry Zito contract...if Barry wasnt there, Im sure SF could have afford to get one or two big bats to help them. And SF won the World Series was cause of guys like Tim Lincecum and Matt Cain, homegrown talent...pitching is what helped them that year...

craigerlee
01-30-2012, 11:18 PM
you must have forgotten but before we were selling out the skydome there was a good five years when they were building the team when they weren't spending mad cash, but when it got closer to the 90s and winning seemed possible we spent and we won and we got attendance, it not complicated.

and why would we spend money on free agents when we don't even know which positions are all ready filled, most of our team has less then 2 years experience, everyones talking like lawrie is a sure thing, i mean even romero and bautisa haven't been around long enough to know if they'll be on this team in 2 yrs

The new stadium probably had a lot to do with the attendance bump. We put out high 80 win teams in the mid to late 80's, but it wasn't till the move to Skydome that the attendance soared.

masTOR_shake1
01-30-2012, 11:21 PM
you must have forgotten but before we were selling out the skydome there was a good five years when they were building the team when they weren't spending mad cash, but when it got closer to the 90s and winning seemed possible we spent and we won and we got attendance, it not complicated.

and why would we spend money on free agents when we don't even know which positions are all ready filled, most of our team has less then 2 years experience, everyones talking like lawrie is a sure thing, i mean even romero and bautisa haven't been around long enough to know if they'll be on this team in 2 yrs

It took the rays years and years of being bottom feeders to become great, much like the blue jays of the 70's- mid 80's. It takes more than 2 years of crafty draft work to "out-ray the rays" because we are a .500 team. soo, because we can't "out yankee the yankess" you have to do a little bit of both, and I don't understand the issue with locking down a proven young talent like prince and then continuing to fill other holes through development and trade, after all beeston said he expects us to be in the playoffs 2-3 times in the next 5 years :facepalm:. The bottom line is that championship caliber teams(unless you want to blow for 10 years like the rays) have ownership that is willing to do whatever is in their means to win and the jays don't have ownership like that period.

scaramantula
01-30-2012, 11:22 PM
The new stadium probably had a lot to do with the attendance bump. We put out high 80 win teams in the mid to late 80's, but it wasn't till the move to Skydome that the attendance soared.

might of had to do with the world series as well, but who knows,

and to Sanyo, im not saying we should sign fielder, i honestly like Lind at first (at least for one more year) just saying you shouldn't compare fielder to pitchers, apples and oranges

scaramantula
01-30-2012, 11:26 PM
It took the rays years and years of being bottom feeders to become great, much like the blue jays of the 70's- late 80's. It takes more than 2 years of crafty draft work to "out-ray the rays" because we are a .500 team. soo, because we can't "out yankee the yankess" you have to do a little bit of both, and I don't understand the issue with locking down a proven young talent like prince and then continuing to fill other holes through development and trade, after all beeston said he expects us to be in the playoffs 2-3 times in the next 5 years :facepalm:.

what if lawrie is a bust (god forbid) and we need to go drop 100 mill to bring in a top tier 3rd baseman? well cant cause its all going to the most easily replaceable position in the league.

also 3 out of the next 5 isn't unreasonable especially with the new wild card rules.

Blue Jays 2013 world champs 20 yrs later count on it

Sanyo
01-30-2012, 11:27 PM
you shouldnt compare players like fielder to pitchers, pitchers play like 15 games at home a year, baseball is absolutely a star driven league, why else would the yankees sell out everywhere they go, its just in baseball you cant have one man teams

You just answered your question....Yankees sell out cause they win, not cause Derek Jeter can bring an extra 25,000 extra butts in the stands every game. If the Yanks were losing, doesnt matter if Derek Jeter or A Rod are playing, less people would show up.

Prince would definitely bring the Jays strength, but its no secret his contract is stupid, 9 years for him is lunacy. The Jays just said if it was 5 years or less they could have gone for him, he wanted 8-10 (no secret). Even big money spenders like the Rangers passed -- just wayyy too much risk for return -- Detroit will have issues in a few years no doubt...

MVP1
01-30-2012, 11:29 PM
So many roger$ sheep in this thread.

Sanyo
01-30-2012, 11:29 PM
might of had to do with the world series as well, but who knows,

and to Sanyo, im not saying we should sign fielder, i honestly like Lind at first (at least for one more year) just saying you shouldn't compare fielder to pitchers, apples and oranges

fair enough, but still if the Jays signed Joey Votto tomorrow, you would see a spike attendance for the first couple games/ maybe the first two weeks and if the Jays were losing it go back down again...

craigerlee
01-30-2012, 11:31 PM
might of had to do with the world series as well, but who knows,

and to Sanyo, im not saying we should sign fielder, i honestly like Lind at first (at least for one more year) just saying you shouldn't compare fielder to pitchers, apples and oranges

Less than 2,000 difference in attendance between World Series years and first full year in Skydome. The fans were there before this was a World Series team. I just really thought it was an awful move telling fans they're not going to spend until attendance rises as this team was building so much steam with the way they were building the team and now all the fans hate them. I guarantee there wouldn't be near as much fan backlash if the Jays didn't make comments like that and the one where they only like players on 5 year deals or less. Really makes ownership sound cheap.

Sanyo
01-30-2012, 11:32 PM
So many roger$ sheep in this thread.

go buy the team then and then go spend $200 million on prince fielder -- i bet you would never do it, talk talk talk on spending money but you have none so calling others sheep is pretty lame...most of us want a proper re-build and not to have another vernon wells on our hand again (which is not AA's fault, Im sure he would never make that dumb mistake to give a guy a record contract)

ps- go ask sf what happens to a team when they pay big money to a guy who vastly underperformed and now are tied with things they can do like extend both Cain and Lincecum (Zito).

scaramantula
01-30-2012, 11:34 PM
So many roger$ sheep in this thread.

whats the point in dropping 200 mill, when we could spend a third of the money and get a guy nearly as good, and what happens when lawrie sees fielder get that much, now you have to give him that much or he leaves, all the while bautistas like well ******* this im not giving it my all for 30% of what fatty over there's getting

scaramantula
01-30-2012, 11:37 PM
allright lets see if i did my sig right this time

scaramantula
01-30-2012, 11:39 PM
haha,
welcome to spider skull island, do you want to see my giant laser?

masTOR_shake1
01-30-2012, 11:42 PM
what if lawrie is a bust (god forbid) and we need to go drop 100 mill to bring in a top tier 3rd baseman? well cant cause its all going to the most easily replaceable position in the league.

also 3 out of the next 5 isn't unreasonable especially with the new wild card rules.

Blue Jays 2013 world champs 20 yrs later count on it

I do love and encourage your jays 2013 campagne, and your point is a valid one but nothing ventured nothing gained. if lawrie is a bust the jays are going to go out and find another cost effective option with upside becuase it isn't that hard (not as hard as finding offensive production like prince's), they are very capable and have done it with other preimer position players (escobar at short, rasmus at center). finding cost effective players at some positions around the diamond is something they will rely on whether or not they had signed prince or a few big named free agents. we have a glairing need at 1st and to not fill it with a once in a generation talent becuase lawrie might be a bust is weak. I am mostly fighting against the notion that one potentially bad contract should be able to handcuff a market with the prowess of ours. that is the problem here.

masTOR_shake1
01-30-2012, 11:43 PM
So many roger$ sheep in this thread.
:clap:
we are all in this together though, so nothing but love for everyone in here. I just have never seen anything but mediocre baseball here in my conscience life as a jays fan (22 years old) so it's taking its toll. we are too acommadating but the alternative is to boycott the jays and then the team suffers and has to move so it's a tight rope we are walking gentleman. It suuuucks to be a toronto sports fan.

MVP1
01-30-2012, 11:44 PM
Rogers should've been there. I'm looking at you Nadir Mohamed.

craigerlee
01-30-2012, 11:48 PM
nothing ventured nothing gained. if lawrie is a bust the jays are going to go out and find another cost effective option with upside becuase it isn't that hard (not as hard as finding offensive production like prince's), they are very capable and have done it with other preimer position players (escobar at short, rasmus at center). finding cost effective players at some positions around the diamond is something they will rely on whether or not they had signed prince or a few big named free agents. we have a glairing need at 1st and to not fill it with a once in a generation talent becuase lawrie might be a bust is weak. I am mostly fighting against the notion that one potentially bad contract should be able to handcuff a market with the prowess of ours. that is the problem here.

You honestly can't believe it would of been a good idea to have matched or exceeded the Tigers offer to Prince? Right? Prince made sense for the Blue Jays at like 7 years 160-170M, but nothing more than that. Your getting 5 elite years out of Prince tops, and your gonna have to pay close to 30M a year for the last 4 years of pure decline.

scaramantula
01-30-2012, 11:50 PM
I do love and encourage your jays 2013 campagne, and your point is a valid one but nothing ventured nothing gained. if lawrie is a bust the jays are going to go out and find another cost effective option with upside becuase it isn't that hard (not as hard as finding offensive production like prince's), they are very capable and have done it with other preimer position players (escobar at short, rasmus at center). finding cost effective players at some positions around the diamond is something they will rely on whether or not they had signed prince or a few big named free agents. we have a glairing need at 1st and to not fill it with a once in a generation talent becuase lawrie might be a bust is weak. I am mostly fighting against the notion that one potentially bad contract should be able to handcuff a market with the prowess of ours. that is the problem here.

first i just used lawrie as an example, we have so many unknowns at this point guaranteed we'll have at least one bust that will set us back considerably.

and im not sure i agree with you about first, lind has only played the position for one year and he had some good moments, he should get at least one more year to prove himself

scaramantula
01-30-2012, 11:54 PM
:clap:
we are all in this together though, so nothing but love for everyone in here. I just have never seen anything but mediocre baseball here in my conscience life as a jays fan (22 years old) so it's taking its toll. we are too acommadating but the alternative is to boycott the jays and then the team suffers and has to move so it's a tight rope we are walking gentleman. It suuuucks to be a toronto sports fan.

after that last year with jp i was so close to stopping cheering for them all together i was all ready to cheer for someone else, (i almost started following the national league, how terrible would that have been) but AA came along, and he made me a believer again, and with him as gm were going to make the playoffs for the first time since i was 3 yrs old, Count on it

masTOR_shake1
01-31-2012, 12:04 AM
You honestly can't believe it would of been a good idea to have matched or exceeded the Tigers offer to Prince? Right? Prince made sense for the Blue Jays at like 7 years 160-170M, but nothing more than that. Your getting 5 elite years out of Prince tops, and your gonna have to pay close to 30M a year for the last 4 years of pure decline.

I think it would make us playoff contenders, i'm not saying we should do that all of the time but you would sure as hell think that the savings made on locking up other talented controlable players, (santos, rasmus, lawrie, romero, morrow, escobar, my god even bautista is a steal) would allow us to, so yes i would have signed prince. having a 5 year max policy is just another way of invalidating us from spending. it takes overpaying, and although it isn't shrewed, all of the good teams (save the rays) do it in conjunction with being savy in the way a.a already is. the ghost of halladay can attest to the jays not doing everything in their power to win, like the phillies, yankess, angles, red sox, tigers.

scaramantula
01-31-2012, 12:18 AM
first base is the easiest position to get a top tier guy, i'm all for signing good players, but wait till there ones we actually need, i'm pretty sure were gonna have to spend next season to get a big time starter, Prince does not fit on this team

masTOR_shake1
01-31-2012, 12:22 AM
first base is the easiest position to get a top tier guy, i'm all for signing good players, but wait till there ones we actually need, i'm pretty sure were gonna have to spend next season to get a big time starter, Prince does not fit on this team

oh like yu darvish? :rolleyes:

scaramantula
01-31-2012, 12:25 AM
oh like yu darvish? :rolleyes:

i would have loved yu on this team i was so pissed when i heard texas won

2009mvp
01-31-2012, 12:31 AM
first base is the easiest position to get a top tier guy,

Been saying that since Delgado left, and yet 8 years later we're about to throw out a replacement level first baseman.


i'm all for signing good players, but wait till there ones we actually need, i'm pretty sure were gonna have to spend next season to get a big time starter,

It'd be nice, but is it really wise to be putting all your eggs into that basket? I mean, even if all of Hamels, Greinke, and Cain hit the market what are the odds of any of them signing in Toronto? The market for elite starting pitching will always be there, you really think this team in this situation can outbid the big spenders (if they're willing to spend in the first place, that is) in bigger markets with a better chance to win? I'll believe it when I see it.


Prince does not fit on this team

Well that's just crazy talk. Obviously the price was prohibitive, but he really was a perfect fit for this roster.

scaramantula
01-31-2012, 12:42 AM
Been saying that since Delgado left, and yet 8 years later we're about to throw out a replacement level first baseman.



It'd be nice, but is it really wise to be putting all your eggs into that basket? I mean, even if all of Hamels, Greinke, and Cain hit the market what are the odds of any of them signing in Toronto? The market for elite starting pitching will always be there, you really think this team in this situation can outbid the big spenders (if they're willing to spend in the first place, that is) in bigger markets with a better chance to win? I'll believe it when I see it.



Well that's just crazy talk. Obviously the price was prohibitive, but he really was a perfect fit for this roster.

First i still like lind at first he deserves one more year.
Second If nothing happens in free agency sp wise we can always trade, but seriously i wouldnt be surprised if a top tier guy wants to come to toronto, we just gotta hope new york has bigger issues than sp
and lastly i meant that there is literally no room on this team for fielder hes just to big lol

bomber0104
01-31-2012, 01:24 AM
Again I proved my point in some other post (not sure where now) but I showed how a guy like AJ Burnett or even Roy Halladay made virtually no difference whatsoever when they were here with attendance based on the average...so I hate when people say you have to spend money to get people to show up, it doesnt work that way. People show up because the team is winning, not because Prince Fielder or x or y is playing in Toronto. This isnt the NBA where maybe a guy like Kobe or Lebron can make a difference with attendance -- baseball is not a star driven league, if it was the Jays should have been near the top last year having Jose Bautista on the Jays (hey he did have a record 7.5 million votes for the All Star Game -- so I mean not sure what to say)...

what you blatantly choose to ignore is the fact that all things equal, signing Fielder to replace Lind should bring us 5-6 extra wins (if you believe in WAR).. with the improved bullpen and extra WC spot, that could have easily put us in the hunt for the playoffs all the way through September ...

So even though signing a star player might not equal more attendance.. but if that guy brings in more wins and "winning attracts fans", all our problems are solved..

Again i'm not advocating giving Fielder that big a contract .. just saying bringing in that star player will definitely influence attendance

GrantHustle
01-31-2012, 01:33 AM
First i still like lind at first he deserves one more year.
Second If nothing happens in free agency sp wise we can always trade, but seriously i wouldnt be surprised if a top tier guy wants to come to toronto, we just gotta hope new york has bigger issues than sp
and lastly i meant that there is literally no room on this team for fielder hes just to big lol

He really doesn't on production alone in 3 major league seasons combined he hasn't be very good and the last 2 years he's been brutal and like Jay-Z said " Men lie,Women lie, numbers don't."

scaramantula
01-31-2012, 01:47 AM
He really doesn't on production alone in 3 major league seasons combined he hasn't be very good and the last 2 years he's been brutal and like Jay-Z said " Men lie,Women lie, numbers don't."

does everyone forget it was his first season playing first

StayOnBoard
01-31-2012, 09:24 AM
does everyone forget it was his first season playing first

What does that have to do with his ability to actually hit the ball?

The guy is awful, unless he was a SS - then I could put up with his God-awful OBP and his ability to crush rallies in a single swing.

wamco
01-31-2012, 09:55 AM
why does lind deserve anything? no one is talking about his 1b defense that I saw.

AA09-?
01-31-2012, 10:03 AM
You guys have similar names.

it throws me off every ****ing time!

AA09-?
01-31-2012, 10:06 AM
The fact remains Rogers pretty much came out and said they're not increasing payroll until fans start showing up. That's the wrong message to send. This was posted earlier by Wamco I believe its a quote from Bob Simpson Co-Chairman of the Rangers:

ESPN (http://espn.go.com/dallas/mlb/story/_/id/7486862/texas-rangers-co-chairman-favors-keeping-josh-hamilton-signing-prince-fielder)

We've been losing for 18 years now you can't expect all fans to just start showing up cause there's something good brewing. Most fans need to see a winning product and its not there yet.

Again people twisting words.

AA09-?
01-31-2012, 10:13 AM
I think it would make us playoff contenders, i'm not saying we should do that all of the time but you would sure as hell think that the savings made on locking up other talented controlable players, (santos, rasmus, lawrie, romero, morrow, escobar, my god even bautista is a steal) would allow us to, so yes i would have signed prince. having a 5 year max policy is just another way of invalidating us from spending. it takes overpaying, and although it isn't shrewed, all of the good teams (save the rays) do it in conjunction with being savy in the way a.a already is. the ghost of halladay can attest to the jays not doing everything in their power to win, like the phillies, yankess, angles, red sox, tigers.

:confused: I don't understand why anyone would think this is a good idea.

Bob_at_york
01-31-2012, 10:38 AM
I would love someone to ask Why didn't we commit to Fielder knowing that Lind has been crap these past 2 years and knowing that Bautista and Fielder would make a good 3-4 punch

"That kind of money and length didn't make sense for us. We like how Adam is developing as a 1st baseman and believe that his bat will bounce back."

That is what your "tough question" would have gotten you. It would have gotten you nothing.


The fact remains Rogers pretty much came out and said they're not increasing payroll until fans start showing up. That's the wrong message to send. This was posted earlier by Wamco I believe its a quote from Bob Simpson Co-Chairman of the Rangers:

ESPN (http://espn.go.com/dallas/mlb/story/_/id/7486862/texas-rangers-co-chairman-favors-keeping-josh-hamilton-signing-prince-fielder)

We've been losing for 18 years now you can't expect all fans to just start showing up cause there's something good brewing. Most fans need to see a winning product and its not there yet.
Losing for 18 years? "Winning product". They have put winning teams out there. THe Jays have only been under .500 once the last 5 years. The almost had 90 wins a couple of times.

Also if you listen to Beeston, he seems to think that they will make the playoffs sometime soon and that they are on the right track. So he expects people to come out and see the winning product and THEN they will put the finishing touch on the team. Makes perfect sense to me.

ThunderZubb
01-31-2012, 10:53 AM
LOL it seems Sanyo works for rogers some how and I won't be surprised if Rogers has a team that goes to message boards on behalf of them by trying to defend what rogers does. lol it great strategy on rogers parts by sending his men to do there dirty work by convincing fans with there bs stuff

mtf
01-31-2012, 10:57 AM
Losing for 18 years? "Winning product". They have put winning teams out there. THe Jays have only been under .500 once the last 5 years. The almost had 90 wins a couple of times.

I think it's safe to assume that by winning team, the guy you were quoting was referring to their standing within the division and their lack of any meaningful games in any September since 1993. I know to some optimists, being .500 is not a failure. But I think there is a large contingent of Blue Jays fans who do not want to settle for .500 and 3rd or 4th place anymore.

fatkev78
01-31-2012, 11:05 AM
Damn, my 'SOTF' thread has turned into yet another Rogers is cheap thread....

It's pretty simple: this years team should be better than last years, attendance should reflect that, then payroll should reflect the rise in attendance. With a higher payroll next years team should be even better than this years, attendance should reflect that and payroll should rise again. By this time we should be in or near the playoffs, nearly selling out/40,000 per game and in the top 10 in payroll.

If attendance rises and payroll doesn't I'll join you guys, but as for now I like this team and I love the way they're building their foundation (minor leagues, trades etc).

As for the we haven't done anything since 93 argument...simply separate what AA has done/is doing from everything else and you'll find yourself a much calmer person.

Bob_at_york
01-31-2012, 11:07 AM
I think it's safe to assume that by winning team, the guy you were quoting was referring to their standing within the division and their lack of any meaningful games in any September since 1993. I know to some optimists, being .500 is not a failure. But I think there is a large contingent of Blue Jays fans who do not want to settle for .500 and 3rd or 4th place anymore.

There have been numerous times where the Jays played meaningful games earlier in the season and the fans didn't come out. Sure they came up short when it comes to the playoffs but if the fans had shown more excitement, maybe they would have pulled a deadline deal or something. I think the same situation exists right now.

craigerlee
01-31-2012, 11:29 AM
Again people twisting words.

We’re still capable of going to the US$120 million payroll once we start drawing the people
Paul Beeston

My point was more that its poor choice of words if you wanna draw fans, it can easily be construed as if you show up we'll start spending. I'm not complaining that team screwed up by not signing Prince Fielder to 200M contract, I actually quite like their offseason so far. I'm complaining about how they've handled the media criticism and they've done more to add fuel to the fire then put out the fire. Look at the Rangers for example everything you read was pretty much the Rangers like Prince Fielder if they can get him on a 6-7 year deal, where with the Blue Jays the whole 5 year contract thing was a non starter from the get go, and kinda makes Rogers look cheap. The Rangers fans hold zero grudge towards the Rangers for not getting Fielder cause in the media it actually looks like they gave it a shot, same with the Nationals.

AA has always played things close to the vest and has had a policy of never divulging information, but isn't telling the media you have a policy of only doing 5 year deals or less a complete contradiction to that policy?



Losing for 18 years? "Winning product". They have put winning teams out there. THe Jays have only been under .500 once the last 5 years. The almost had 90 wins a couple of times.

Also if you listen to Beeston, he seems to think that they will make the playoffs sometime soon and that they are on the right track. So he expects people to come out and see the winning product and THEN they will put the finishing touch on the team. Makes perfect sense to me.

How many of those teams have competed into September? Very few, I know the division has a lot to do with it, but its still not an excuse as there's nothing you can do about it. I think this team will compete soon too, but my beef has just been about there communication with fans and lack of transparency and what can be construed as mixed messages. I actually got excited when AA in so many words said that they tried to get Beltran but he didn't wanna come here cause of the turf. It showed they tried to get Bautista some help in the middle of the lineup.

I still think its tough to put finishing touches on a AL East team when you have a 5 year policy for contracts as every free agent position player that takes less than 5 years has some major issues, your not getting many sure thing all star free agents when your giving 5 year deals or less.

Twitchy
01-31-2012, 11:42 AM
A lot of people want the Jays to start signing big money free agents, and there's nothing wrong with that. But here's the thing, spending money in order to win doesn't guarantee anything, as we found out in 2006. Let's look at one of the most successful rebounds in the AL over the last two years that is comparable to the Jays (so not the Rays, because their payroll issues change the situation). The Texas Rangers.

In 2009, Texas won 89 games (10 behind LAA) with a 68M payroll.
In 2010, Texas was 90 games, but thanks to the drop off of LAA they were able to win the division. They had a 64M payroll that year.
In 2011, after they had made the WS, payroll increased to 92M
In 2012, they're expected to be significantly higher than 100M, after being in the WS in both 2010/2011.

So how were they able to do this?

Texas of course had one of the best farms in the league. They traded Tex for several players who had key roles - Andrus, Feliz, and recently Harrison. They made some smart trades (Volquez for Hamilton among them) while picking up cheap free agents (Colby Lewis was outstanding in 2010).

Once they had been to the playoffs and had the revenue boosts, that's when they went out and got Beltre, and the next year Darvish. Additionally, they put a greater emphasis on team defence - which included moving Young twice (from SS to 3B and 3B to DH), focusing on players who played good D such as Beltre, which helped improve the pitching staff as well. It's harder to show how much of an impact this had, but getting good 2 way players (offence & defence as opposed to those who specialize in one) made a big difference. That's why Seattle failed when they went to a defence first team (with no offence to support the pitching staff) and it's why the old Rangers teams failed (in addition to no pitching their defence was generally below average).

You'll notice that they used their farm system to form the team, and until they made the playoffs only made small FA acquisitions like Colby Lewis. Under the radar type signings that would later have bigger impacts.

That, and not signing major free agents, is what will make the Jays a better team. Sometimes the moves that end up having the biggest impact are the ones we barely even notice during the offseason.

For all those who should have said AA should have tried harder to get every player, is that a fair argument? We know that AA asks about everybody and talks to each player. How do I know? Look at the response to the Santos trade. Half the league said they didn't know he was available, and yet AA worked out a deal with nobody knowing.

A guy who is that prepared, doesn't just miss out on an opportunity like Latos. They probably did offer a similar deal (D'Arnauld/and a bat with a pitching prospect and maybe someone else), but at the end of the day SD chose the Reds package. Possibly because of the MLB readiness of Alonso, or the hype he had. At the end of the day, the Reds were simply a better fit. This isn't like playing MLB 2012 where just because the needs fit your team you can just say the trade should have gone through. I would have liked Latos as well, but the Reds package fit the Padres needs more.

As we are later finding out there are other free agents (Beltran, Oswalt to name a few) that it wouldn't even matter if the Jays overpaid, because they simply would not come here. I'm sure they're not the only ones. And the ones who would come here, aren't likely to make a significant impact which is why they wouldn't be so picky.

At the end of the day, I think we can all agree AA didn't exactly leave any stones unturned. While we'd all like to believe we could have had Latos or any of the other pitchers that were flipped, we need to recognize the strength of the Jays farm isn't having 1-2 elite prospects like a Montero or a Moore. The strength of the farm is having a significant quantity of above average prospects (especially with Lawrie no longer considered a prospect). And while there's nothing wrong with that, it just means that given a choice between a Jesus Montero led package (ie an elite prospect) or a package of above average prospects (but not with the upside of a Montero), most teams will take quality over quantity. Edit: So the reports are Pineda would have cost Lawrie, I think we can safely say the Jays made the right choice sticking with Lawrie. And it's further proof teams wanted elite prospects as opposed to quantity deals.

I didn't see the State of the Franchise because it's nothing I didn't already know. I just don't think people realize that many of their claims that the Jays should have gone after certain players is somewhat unfair in a sense. Realistically, who could the Jays have added that wanted to come here and would have put them above Tampa? Even with the second wild card, the Jays aren't passing them without the addition of a Fielder calibre player and someone else - and if 214M/9 is the price, I'm glad the Jays didn't pay it.

Success isn't going to come by adding free agents to satisfy your need to see Rogers pay for free agents. Success is only going to come here by making smart trades like Escobar/Rasmus, continuing to infuse this team with prospects like Alvarez/Lawrie, building a core and supplementing them with under the radar free agents (like the Rangers Colby Lewis), and then once the leap is made to the playoffs will you see a rise in payroll.

It's not all good news, IMO. I'm disappointed that the Jays are wasting Bautista's prime. If you don't make a big move, then it makes more sense to trade him today for a boatload of high ceiling prospects (like the Tex trade) instead of letting him hit 40-50 HR's for an 86~ win team.

For the TL-DR people - Follow the Texas model, you don't spend significantly in FA till after you make the playoffs, and quit crying about FA the Jays never had a chance at or trades that the Jays clearly tried to get into but didn't have the right fits for the other teams needs.

killersweet
01-31-2012, 11:49 AM
Lot of Blue Jays fans are so easy to please man. No wonder the management can get away with a bad off season. Playing .500 baseball is not considered a success to me. As fan, I want our team in the playoffs. In the last decade, our team is out of contention by mid June or July. It is not fun after that. Toronto franchises keep delivering mediocre products and we keep accepting them.
As for rebuilding, I am sick and tired of it. Rebuilding is happening because of terrible mismanagement of the franchise. We have been rebuilding since 1994.

Bob_at_york
01-31-2012, 11:56 AM
As for rebuilding, I am sick and tired of it. Rebuilding is happening because of terrible mismanagement of the franchise. We have been rebuilding since 1994.
No we haven't. We have built a team a couple of times since then and found that the teams sucked and then we had to tear them down and rebuild.

jaysfan4ever
01-31-2012, 12:09 PM
"That kind of money and length didn't make sense for us. We like how Adam is developing as a 1st baseman and believe that his bat will bounce back."

That is what your "tough question" would have gotten you. It would have gotten you nothing.

Decent answer. Yes, Lind was bad last year. But it's been said that he was dealing with injuries in the 2nd half of last year. I don't see any better alternatives at 1st base, considering what we'd have to give up. Kyle Blanks, or even Andre Ethier might be nice 1B/DH types to trade for if Lind is still terrible in 2012.


Losing for 18 years? "Winning product". They have put winning teams out there. THe Jays have only been under .500 once the last 5 years. The almost had 90 wins a couple of times.

Also if you listen to Beeston, he seems to think that they will make the playoffs sometime soon and that they are on the right track. So he expects people to come out and see the winning product and THEN they will put the finishing touch on the team. Makes perfect sense to me.

You're right on one aspect. The on-field product has been ok. BUT fans come to the ballpark mostly because they like the team, not because they wanna see an entertaining ball-game. And if a fans watch 5, 10 or 15 years go by without the playoffs, they stop watching and paying attention to their team, and of course stop going to the ballpark. Baseball is slowly becoming irrelevant in Toronto, and it's up to the owners to change that, NOT the fans. You can't blame the fans for not watching a team after 18 years without making the playoffs.

Obviously, the single greatest move Beeston and/or AA can pull off is getting the Jays out of the AL East. Every 5 years, they should shuffle the divisions. Put us in the NL East, I doubt any Jays fans would care. But that's not gonna happen anytime soon. So ownership has to grow a pair and stand behind its GM, invest a few $$ to make sure that the team's revenues don't keep going down.

Heck, if we're talking business here, which customer in their right mind buys something with the promise that it will get better? If you're a Rogers wireless customer and you tell Rogers that you're gonna stop your Rogers service, what does Rogers do? They give you a retainment package. Rogers gives THE CUSTOMER benefits, a discount, a free phone, whatever, because they don't want their customer to leave. Instead, Jays fans are given the old **** you.

jaysfan4ever
01-31-2012, 12:12 PM
A lot of people want the Jays to start signing big money free agents, and there's nothing wrong with that. But here's the thing, spending money in order to win doesn't guarantee anything, as we found out in 2006. Let's look at one of the most successful rebounds in the AL over the last two years that is comparable to the Jays (so not the Rays, because their payroll issues change the situation). The Texas Rangers.

In 2009, Texas won 89 games (10 behind LAA) with a 68M payroll.
In 2010, Texas was 90 games, but thanks to the drop off of LAA they were able to win the division. They had a 64M payroll that year.
In 2011, after they had made the WS, payroll increased to 92M
In 2012, they're expected to be significantly higher than 100M, after being in the WS in both 2010/2011.

So how were they able to do this?

Texas of course had one of the best farms in the league. They traded Tex for several players who had key roles - Andrus, Feliz, and recently Harrison. They made some smart trades (Volquez for Hamilton among them) while picking up cheap free agents (Colby Lewis was outstanding in 2010).

Once they had been to the playoffs and had the revenue boosts, that's when they went out and got Beltre, and the next year Darvish. Additionally, they put a greater emphasis on team defence - which included moving Young twice (from SS to 3B and 3B to DH), focusing on players who played good D such as Beltre, which helped improve the pitching staff as well. It's harder to show how much of an impact this had, but getting good 2 way players (offence & defence as opposed to those who specialize in one) made a big difference. That's why Seattle failed when they went to a defence first team (with no offence to support the pitching staff) and it's why the old Rangers teams failed (in addition to no pitching their defence was generally below average).

You'll notice that they used their farm system to form the team, and until they made the playoffs only made small FA acquisitions like Colby Lewis. Under the radar type signings that would later have bigger impacts.

That, and not signing major free agents, is what will make the Jays a better team. Sometimes the moves that end up having the biggest impact are the ones we barely even notice during the offseason.

For all those who should have said AA should have tried harder to get every player, is that a fair argument? We know that AA asks about everybody and talks to each player. How do I know? Look at the response to the Santos trade. Half the league said they didn't know he was available, and yet AA worked out a deal with nobody knowing.

A guy who is that prepared, doesn't just miss out on an opportunity like Latos. They probably did offer a similar deal (D'Arnauld/and a bat with a pitching prospect and maybe someone else), but at the end of the day SD chose the Reds package. Possibly because of the MLB readiness of Alonso, or the hype he had. At the end of the day, the Reds were simply a better fit. This isn't like playing MLB 2012 where just because the needs fit your team you can just say the trade should have gone through. I would have liked Latos as well, but the Reds package fit the Padres needs more.

As we are later finding out there are other free agents (Beltran, Oswalt to name a few) that it wouldn't even matter if the Jays overpaid, because they simply would not come here. I'm sure they're not the only ones. And the ones who would come here, aren't likely to make a significant impact which is why they wouldn't be so picky.

At the end of the day, I think we can all agree AA didn't exactly leave any stones unturned. While we'd all like to believe we could have had Latos or any of the other pitchers that were flipped, we need to recognize the strength of the Jays farm isn't having 1-2 elite prospects like a Montero or a Moore. The strength of the farm is having a significant quantity of above average prospects (especially with Lawrie no longer considered a prospect). And while there's nothing wrong with that, it just means that given a choice between a Jesus Montero led package (ie an elite prospect) or a package of above average prospects (but not with the upside of a Montero), most teams will take quality over quantity. Edit: So the reports are Pineda would have cost Lawrie, I think we can safely say the Jays made the right choice sticking with Lawrie. And it's further proof teams wanted elite prospects as opposed to quantity deals.

I didn't see the State of the Franchise because it's nothing I didn't already know. I just don't think people realize that many of their claims that the Jays should have gone after certain players is somewhat unfair in a sense. Realistically, who could the Jays have added that wanted to come here and would have put them above Tampa? Even with the second wild card, the Jays aren't passing them without the addition of a Fielder calibre player and someone else - and if 214M/9 is the price, I'm glad the Jays didn't pay it.

Success isn't going to come by adding free agents to satisfy your need to see Rogers pay for free agents. Success is only going to come here by making smart trades like Escobar/Rasmus, continuing to infuse this team with prospects like Alvarez/Lawrie, building a core and supplementing them with under the radar free agents (like the Rangers Colby Lewis), and then once the leap is made to the playoffs will you see a rise in payroll.

It's not all good news, IMO. I'm disappointed that the Jays are wasting Bautista's prime. If you don't make a big move, then it makes more sense to trade him today for a boatload of high ceiling prospects (like the Tex trade) instead of letting him hit 40-50 HR's for an 86~ win team.

For the TL-DR people - Follow the Texas model, you don't spend significantly in FA till after you make the playoffs, and quit crying about FA the Jays never had a chance at or trades that the Jays clearly tried to get into but didn't have the right fits for the other teams needs.

The Rangers don't play in the AL East lol. There's no way that 2009 Rangers team wins 87 games in the AL East. Probably less than Tampa's 84 games, putting them 4th. Same with the 2010 team. That 2010 Rangers team finished 5 games behind the Wild Card Red Sox, and only 1 game ahead of 3rd place Tampa even playing half its games against AL West opponents.

Anyways, my point isn't to whine about the AL East. It's just to say, that:

1. Our last 2 seasons have been pretty comparable to Texas's 09 and 10 seasons, considering the level of competition we've faced vs. the Rangers level of competition. So by your model, spending more would've been a good idea.

2. Because we don't play in the AL West, and our team hasn't made the playoffs in 18 years, management has to be aggressive and opportunistic, because we have much less room for error than we would in the AL West. Especially wasting Bautista's prime years. Take some risks, and move things forward. Our GM is one of the best in the game, who better to trust with a few extra million? If we're looking long-term, it'll save the franchise, and Rogers might even GAIN money.

Bob_at_york
01-31-2012, 12:20 PM
Decent answer. Yes, Lind was bad last year. But it's been said that he was dealing with injuries in the 2nd half of last year. I don't see any better alternatives at 1st base, considering what we'd have to give up. Kyle Blanks, or even Andre Ethier might be nice 1B/DH types to trade for if Lind is still terrible in 2012.
Don't confuse what i said with my opinion. I am just saying what AA would have said and I was showing how some of these "so called" tough questions wouldn't have gotten us anywhere.


You're right on one aspect. The on-field product has been ok. BUT fans come to the ballpark mostly because they like the team, not because they wanna see an entertaining ball-game. And if a fans watch 5, 10 or 15 years go by without the playoffs, they stop watching and paying attention to their team, and of course stop going to the ballpark. Baseball is slowly becoming irrelevant in Toronto, and it's up to the owners to change that, NOT the fans. You can't blame the fans for not watching a team after 18 years without making the playoffs.
I thought interest was up last year but that might have just been with people i know. I thought more fans came out. I thought we were at the beginning of an upswing.


Heck, if we're talking business here, which customer in their right mind buys something with the promise that it will get better? If you're a Rogers wireless customer and you tell Rogers that you're gonna stop your Rogers service, what does Rogers do? They give you a retainment package. Rogers gives THE CUSTOMER benefits, a discount, a free phone, whatever, because they don't want their customer to leave. Instead, Jays fans are given the old **** you.
I thought Jays fans were given discounts and I thought prices went down at some point in the last few years. I could be wrong. I know that they had those toonie tuesdays games a few years back. I thought that was a nice promotion for Jays fans. They also invested a lot of money in redoing the Dome. I thought that was a nice benefit when I was at the games. Made going to the ballpark a better experience. Hell, I like the scoreboard they added to the walls. Helps me keep an eye on out of town games. All added bonuses.

StayOnBoard
01-31-2012, 12:29 PM
Originally Posted by Twitchy
A lot of people want the Jays to start signing big money free agents, and there's nothing wrong with that. But here's the thing, spending money in order to win doesn't guarantee anything, as we found out in 2006. Let's look at one of the most successful rebounds in the AL over the last two years that is comparable to the Jays (so not the Rays, because their payroll issues change the situation). The Texas Rangers.

In 2009, Texas won 89 games (10 behind LAA) with a 68M payroll.
In 2010, Texas was 90 games, but thanks to the drop off of LAA they were able to win the division. They had a 64M payroll that year.
In 2011, after they had made the WS, payroll increased to 92M
In 2012, they're expected to be significantly higher than 100M, after being in the WS in both 2010/2011.

So how were they able to do this?

Texas of course had one of the best farms in the league. They traded Tex for several players who had key roles - Andrus, Feliz, and recently Harrison. They made some smart trades (Volquez for Hamilton among them) while picking up cheap free agents (Colby Lewis was outstanding in 2010).

Once they had been to the playoffs and had the revenue boosts, that's when they went out and got Beltre, and the next year Darvish. Additionally, they put a greater emphasis on team defence - which included moving Young twice (from SS to 3B and 3B to DH), focusing on players who played good D such as Beltre, which helped improve the pitching staff as well. It's harder to show how much of an impact this had, but getting good 2 way players (offence & defence as opposed to those who specialize in one) made a big difference. That's why Seattle failed when they went to a defence first team (with no offence to support the pitching staff) and it's why the old Rangers teams failed (in addition to no pitching their defence was generally below average).

You'll notice that they used their farm system to form the team, and until they made the playoffs only made small FA acquisitions like Colby Lewis. Under the radar type signings that would later have bigger impacts.

That, and not signing major free agents, is what will make the Jays a better team. Sometimes the moves that end up having the biggest impact are the ones we barely even notice during the offseason.

For all those who should have said AA should have tried harder to get every player, is that a fair argument? We know that AA asks about everybody and talks to each player. How do I know? Look at the response to the Santos trade. Half the league said they didn't know he was available, and yet AA worked out a deal with nobody knowing.

A guy who is that prepared, doesn't just miss out on an opportunity like Latos. They probably did offer a similar deal (D'Arnauld/and a bat with a pitching prospect and maybe someone else), but at the end of the day SD chose the Reds package. Possibly because of the MLB readiness of Alonso, or the hype he had. At the end of the day, the Reds were simply a better fit. This isn't like playing MLB 2012 where just because the needs fit your team you can just say the trade should have gone through. I would have liked Latos as well, but the Reds package fit the Padres needs more.

As we are later finding out there are other free agents (Beltran, Oswalt to name a few) that it wouldn't even matter if the Jays overpaid, because they simply would not come here. I'm sure they're not the only ones. And the ones who would come here, aren't likely to make a significant impact which is why they wouldn't be so picky.

At the end of the day, I think we can all agree AA didn't exactly leave any stones unturned. While we'd all like to believe we could have had Latos or any of the other pitchers that were flipped, we need to recognize the strength of the Jays farm isn't having 1-2 elite prospects like a Montero or a Moore. The strength of the farm is having a significant quantity of above average prospects (especially with Lawrie no longer considered a prospect). And while there's nothing wrong with that, it just means that given a choice between a Jesus Montero led package (ie an elite prospect) or a package of above average prospects (but not with the upside of a Montero), most teams will take quality over quantity. Edit: So the reports are Pineda would have cost Lawrie, I think we can safely say the Jays made the right choice sticking with Lawrie. And it's further proof teams wanted elite prospects as opposed to quantity deals.

I didn't see the State of the Franchise because it's nothing I didn't already know. I just don't think people realize that many of their claims that the Jays should have gone after certain players is somewhat unfair in a sense. Realistically, who could the Jays have added that wanted to come here and would have put them above Tampa? Even with the second wild card, the Jays aren't passing them without the addition of a Fielder calibre player and someone else - and if 214M/9 is the price, I'm glad the Jays didn't pay it.

Success isn't going to come by adding free agents to satisfy your need to see Rogers pay for free agents. Success is only going to come here by making smart trades like Escobar/Rasmus, continuing to infuse this team with prospects like Alvarez/Lawrie, building a core and supplementing them with under the radar free agents (like the Rangers Colby Lewis), and then once the leap is made to the playoffs will you see a rise in payroll.

It's not all good news, IMO. I'm disappointed that the Jays are wasting Bautista's prime. If you don't make a big move, then it makes more sense to trade him today for a boatload of high ceiling prospects (like the Tex trade) instead of letting him hit 40-50 HR's for an 86~ win team.

For the TL-DR people - Follow the Texas model, you don't spend significantly in FA till after you make the playoffs, and quit crying about FA the Jays never had a chance at or trades that the Jays clearly tried to get into but didn't have the right fits for the other teams needs.

Brilliant post - well done :clap:

I love the rebuttal was "the Rangers aren't in the AL East".... Obviously missing almost everything that was said in this post.

miller74
01-31-2012, 12:34 PM
The fact remains Rogers pretty much came out and said they're not increasing payroll until fans start showing up. That's the wrong message to send. This was posted earlier by Wamco I believe its a quote from Bob Simpson Co-Chairman of the Rangers:

ESPN (http://espn.go.com/dallas/mlb/story/_/id/7486862/texas-rangers-co-chairman-favors-keeping-josh-hamilton-signing-prince-fielder)

We've been losing for 18 years now you can't expect all fans to just start showing up cause there's something good brewing. Most fans need to see a winning product and its not there yet.

Alot of winning seasons in those losing 18 years.
How can you blame current ownership and management for something they werent even here for?

jaysfan4ever
01-31-2012, 12:34 PM
Don't confuse what i said with my opinion. I am just saying what AA would have said and I was showing how some of these "so called" tough questions wouldn't have gotten us anywhere.

Sorry I didn't make that clear. I meant AA's answer was decent, and I've actually said I wouldn't mind Lind at 1st base lol.


I thought interest was up last year but that might have just been with people i know. I thought more fans came out. I thought we were at the beginning of an upswing.

I'm not sure. I thought I read somewhere on here that attendence has been steadily down for the past few years. Tbh, I've tried to stay out of the "Rogers is cheap" discussion. Other posters would know better.


I thought Jays fans were given discounts and I thought prices went down at some point in the last few years. I could be wrong. I know that they had those toonie tuesdays games a few years back. I thought that was a nice promotion for Jays fans. They also invested a lot of money in redoing the Dome. I thought that was a nice benefit when I was at the games. Made going to the ballpark a better experience. Hell, I like the scoreboard they added to the walls. Helps me keep an eye on out of town games. All added bonuses.

I'm pretty sure prices went up last year. A couple years back, yeah, ticket prices were nice and cheap.

Twitchy
01-31-2012, 12:35 PM
The Rangers don't play in the AL East lol. There's no way that 2009 Rangers team wins 89 games in the AL East.

Ok, but that doesn't change the fact that the 2010 team Rangers still was good enough. And FYI, they went 500 combined against TB, Boston & NYY that year. They would have made the playoffs in any division.


Probably less than Tampa's 84 games, putting them 4th. Same with the 2010 team. That 2010 Rangers team finished 5 games behind the Wild Card Red Sox, even playing half its games against AL West opponents.


Their record may not have been good enough but the team clearly was. Keep in mind the 2010 Rangers beat out the Yankees AND the Rays in the playoffs. And went 500 against Sox/TB/NY during the season. The Rangers were simply one of the best 4 teams in the AL, and proved they were the best in the playoffs.


1. Our last 2 seasons have been pretty comparable to Texas's 09 and 10 seasons, considering the level of competition we've faced vs. the Rangers level of competition. So by your model, spending more would've been a good idea.


No, the Jays haven't been nearly as good as the Rangers when you adjust for schedule. Not by any stretch of the imagination. The Jays had a better offence in 2010 but the defence was significantly worse. Maybe you could make an argument about the pitching. But you'll notice the Rangers did it with a combo of homegrown (Wilson, Harrison, Ogando, Feliz, Holland etc), and smart FA like Lewis. And the 2010 team was boosted midseason by Lee once they proved they were capable of competing. They didn't make the big moves before the team proved it could handle competing. It wasn't till after they made the playoffs they spent on guys like Darvish.

That's my point. They didn't get the expensive players or make the superstar trades until they were already competing with the core you have. You build your core and support it after via FA/trades.

Spending significantly wouldn't have made sense. Would you have preferred the Jays to sign Jayson Werth? Or maybe CC? I said Fielder would have been ideal, but again at that price it's not worth it.


2. Because we don't play in the AL West, and our team hasn't made the playoffs in 18 years, management has to be aggressive and opportunistic, because we have much less room for error than we would in the AL West. Especially wasting Bautista's prime years.

I agree with the wasting Bautista's prime and said as much. But not playing in the AL West means the Jays have to be smarter, not aggressive because of your emotions. In fact, pointing out the Jays have less room for error is an argument in favour of not spending like a drunken sailor.

Bob_at_york
01-31-2012, 12:41 PM
I agree with the wasting Bautista's prime and said as much. But not playing in the AL West means the Jays have to be smarter, not aggressive because of your emotions. In fact, pointing out the Jays have less room for error is an argument in favour of not spending like a drunken sailor.

I agree. I also noticed the contradiction. If we have less room for error then we shouldn't make a move that will hinder the franchise for years.

jaysnraptors44
01-31-2012, 12:41 PM
well you keep harping on and on about not signing him so obviously to get him you would sign him 2 the contract demand. if you think a team thats bullpen blew 25 saves and was 10 games out of a playoff spot and in the offseason spent 10mil ish on said bullpen to turn it into one of the games best has done nothing to improve then you sir should go back 2 watching basketball because seriously I dont think you understand baseball.

No sir you should go back to watching basketball ... yeah we improved the bullpen but is that going to get that to the playoffs ? I doubt it .. If we do then you have the right to tell me I don't know about baseball .. and i would love for that to happen but as of right now our new and improved bullpen isn't going to get us to the playoffs by the looks of it .

phillipmike
01-31-2012, 12:45 PM
Lot of Blue Jays fans are so easy to please man. No wonder the management can get away with a bad off season. Playing .500 baseball is not considered a success to me. As fan, I want our team in the playoffs. In the last decade, our team is out of contention by mid June or July. It is not fun after that. Toronto franchises keep delivering mediocre products and we keep accepting them.
As for rebuilding, I am sick and tired of it. Rebuilding is happening because of terrible mismanagement of the franchise. We have been rebuilding since 1994.

People just dont get it.

AA cannot be responsible for things happening before him - his timeline is not 1993. His timeline started on 2009 - How do you expect to build a contender with only 3 years of work? As a first year GM his first task was to trade the franchise best player (Halladay) for prospects. When he started in 2009 his job was to tear down the team and REBUILD into a long-term winner. No one is naive enough to believe this team is ready to contend only three years after his start of a rebuild, right? Also factor in that this is the AL East. The Jays are not ready.

Not one of AA's draft picks in his first draft in 2010 has made the MLB. How can we be ready or expect them to be big spenders.

And how many times does it need to be said... Off-season activity does not equal success. Look at the World Series Champs they biggest move they made was Lance Berkman. Boston added Crawford and Gonzalez and missed the playoffs.

craigerlee
01-31-2012, 12:46 PM
Alot of winning seasons in those losing 18 years.
How can you blame current ownership and management for something they werent even here for?

I should of said contending teams, as there wasn't many of those, but your missing the point. I'm blaming current management for the communication with the fans and making a comment that can easily be interpreted as they won't spend until fans show up. I'm saying you can't expect fans to show up when this team hasn't played a meaningful game in October since 1993. This isn't the Cubs or the Maple Leafs where the fans are so die hard they'll show up regardless of the outcome, this like most teams needs to attract the bandwagon fans.

I'm not blaming AA for anything, if anything I've just been upset with how Beeston has communicated with the media.

jaysfan4ever
01-31-2012, 12:57 PM
Ok, but that doesn't change the fact that the 2010 team Rangers still was good enough. And FYI, they went 500 combined against TB, Boston & NYY that year. They would have made the playoffs in any division.

Good enough to finish 4th in the East. With their 2010 record in the AL East, they would've finished 5 games behind the Red Sox for 3rd, and 1 game ahead of Tampa. Plus, give them 13 more games against the AL East teams, and 13 less against AL West teams and there's probably at least 1 win gone.


Their record may not have been good enough but the team clearly was. Keep in mind the 2010 Rangers beat out the Yankees AND the Rays in the playoffs. And went 500 against Sox/TB/NY during the season. The Rangers were simply one of the best 4 teams in the AL, and proved they were the best in the playoffs.

You're talkin about a 10-14 game sample size vs. a 162 game season. That's your argument, really? They went 19-25 against AL East opponents. Even if they put up a .500 record against AL East opponents that equals 3rd or 4th. in the AL East. Check the numbers.


No, the Jays haven't been nearly as good as the Rangers when you adjust for schedule. Not by any stretch of the imagination. The Jays had a better offence in 2010 but the defence was significantly worse. Maybe you could make an argument about the pitching. But you'll notice the Rangers did it with a combo of homegrown (Wilson, Harrison etc), and smart FA like Lewis. And the 2010 team was boosted midseason by Lee once they proved they were capable of competing. They didn't make the big moves before the team proved it could handle competing. It wasn't till after they made the playoffs they spent on guys like Darvish.

Let me crunch the numbers and get back to you with the adjustments.


That's my point. They didn't get the expensive players or make the superstar trades until they were already competing with the core you have. You build your core and support it after via FA/trades.

I say you do both at the same time. We've got the deepest farm system in the game. It's time to use it. Waiting for those guys to make an impact for the Jays while Bautista is around is foolish. Our farm system should be treated like trade bait, AA himself said he loaded up on arms because they are "currency". If Rogers gave us some more money, we could trade for guys who are actually good, even if it means selling some of our prospects at less than market value.


Spending significantly wouldn't have made sense. Would you have preferred the Jays to sign Jayson Werth? Or maybe CC? I said Fielder would have been ideal, but again at that price it's not worth it.

I'm saying neither. AA wouldn't give out stupid contracts like that.

CJ Wilson would've probably been nice. But for the most part, we should've looked to spend $10M on guys that we trade for. Quentin would've been a GREAT add. And I would've overpaid for Latos. I can't see how Alonso is a better prospect than Snider, seeing as Snider's actually younger and has much more ML-experience. Just one of these 2 guys would've made a big difference I think. Heck, even a Brandon McCarthy or maybe Brett Myers/Wandy Rodriguez might work, instead of Francisco Cordero and Jason Frasor.


I agree with the wasting Bautista's prime and said as much. But not playing in the AL West means the Jays have to be smarter, not aggressive because of your emotions. In fact, pointing out the Jays have less room for error is an argument in favour of not spending like a drunken sailor.

Who said anything about emotions? I'm saying that you give more opportunity for AA to make moves (i.e. be more aggressive) because if anyone can turn this franchise around it's AA, given his track record. You don't play it passive when you have one of the best GMs in the league. He can only make this team as good as the resources he's given.

pebloemer
01-31-2012, 01:01 PM
A lot of people want the Jays to start signing big money free agents, and there's nothing wrong with that. But here's the thing, spending money in order to win doesn't guarantee anything, as we found out in 2006. Let's look at one of the most successful rebounds in the AL over the last two years that is comparable to the Jays (so not the Rays, because their payroll issues change the situation). The Texas Rangers.

In 2009, Texas won 89 games (10 behind LAA) with a 68M payroll.
In 2010, Texas was 90 games, but thanks to the drop off of LAA they were able to win the division. They had a 64M payroll that year.
In 2011, after they had made the WS, payroll increased to 92M
In 2012, they're expected to be significantly higher than 100M, after being in the WS in both 2010/2011.

So how were they able to do this?

Texas of course had one of the best farms in the league. They traded Tex for several players who had key roles - Andrus, Feliz, and recently Harrison. They made some smart trades (Volquez for Hamilton among them) while picking up cheap free agents (Colby Lewis was outstanding in 2010).

Once they had been to the playoffs and had the revenue boosts, that's when they went out and got Beltre, and the next year Darvish. Additionally, they put a greater emphasis on team defence - which included moving Young twice (from SS to 3B and 3B to DH), focusing on players who played good D such as Beltre, which helped improve the pitching staff as well. It's harder to show how much of an impact this had, but getting good 2 way players (offence & defence as opposed to those who specialize in one) made a big difference. That's why Seattle failed when they went to a defence first team (with no offence to support the pitching staff) and it's why the old Rangers teams failed (in addition to no pitching their defence was generally below average).

You'll notice that they used their farm system to form the team, and until they made the playoffs only made small FA acquisitions like Colby Lewis. Under the radar type signings that would later have bigger impacts.

That, and not signing major free agents, is what will make the Jays a better team. Sometimes the moves that end up having the biggest impact are the ones we barely even notice during the offseason.

For all those who should have said AA should have tried harder to get every player, is that a fair argument? We know that AA asks about everybody and talks to each player. How do I know? Look at the response to the Santos trade. Half the league said they didn't know he was available, and yet AA worked out a deal with nobody knowing.

A guy who is that prepared, doesn't just miss out on an opportunity like Latos. They probably did offer a similar deal (D'Arnauld/and a bat with a pitching prospect and maybe someone else), but at the end of the day SD chose the Reds package. Possibly because of the MLB readiness of Alonso, or the hype he had. At the end of the day, the Reds were simply a better fit. This isn't like playing MLB 2012 where just because the needs fit your team you can just say the trade should have gone through. I would have liked Latos as well, but the Reds package fit the Padres needs more.

As we are later finding out there are other free agents (Beltran, Oswalt to name a few) that it wouldn't even matter if the Jays overpaid, because they simply would not come here. I'm sure they're not the only ones. And the ones who would come here, aren't likely to make a significant impact which is why they wouldn't be so picky.

At the end of the day, I think we can all agree AA didn't exactly leave any stones unturned. While we'd all like to believe we could have had Latos or any of the other pitchers that were flipped, we need to recognize the strength of the Jays farm isn't having 1-2 elite prospects like a Montero or a Moore. The strength of the farm is having a significant quantity of above average prospects (especially with Lawrie no longer considered a prospect). And while there's nothing wrong with that, it just means that given a choice between a Jesus Montero led package (ie an elite prospect) or a package of above average prospects (but not with the upside of a Montero), most teams will take quality over quantity. Edit: So the reports are Pineda would have cost Lawrie, I think we can safely say the Jays made the right choice sticking with Lawrie. And it's further proof teams wanted elite prospects as opposed to quantity deals.

I didn't see the State of the Franchise because it's nothing I didn't already know. I just don't think people realize that many of their claims that the Jays should have gone after certain players is somewhat unfair in a sense. Realistically, who could the Jays have added that wanted to come here and would have put them above Tampa? Even with the second wild card, the Jays aren't passing them without the addition of a Fielder calibre player and someone else - and if 214M/9 is the price, I'm glad the Jays didn't pay it.

Success isn't going to come by adding free agents to satisfy your need to see Rogers pay for free agents. Success is only going to come here by making smart trades like Escobar/Rasmus, continuing to infuse this team with prospects like Alvarez/Lawrie, building a core and supplementing them with under the radar free agents (like the Rangers Colby Lewis), and then once the leap is made to the playoffs will you see a rise in payroll.

It's not all good news, IMO. I'm disappointed that the Jays are wasting Bautista's prime. If you don't make a big move, then it makes more sense to trade him today for a boatload of high ceiling prospects (like the Tex trade) instead of letting him hit 40-50 HR's for an 86~ win team.
For the TL-DR people - Follow the Texas model, you don't spend significantly in FA till after you make the playoffs, and quit crying about FA the Jays never had a chance at or trades that the Jays clearly tried to get into but didn't have the right fits for the other teams needs.

Thanks for the long post. I enjoyed reading it.

The bolded section is part of what causes me angst with the team playing the 'patient' approach. When Bautista's contract comes to an end, I would have liked to see signficant team success on the back of his outstanding individual performance. We've actually been quite lucky with some of the players we've witnessed play for the Blue Jays over the past decade, even though the team hasn't challenged a playoff spot. Talent like Bautista and Halladay don't come around often. If Beeston's statement that he expects the team to be in the playoffs 2-3 times over the next 5 years is true, then this isn't a concern, but I'm not sure I believe Beeston's statement.

mike_noodles
01-31-2012, 01:08 PM
And major LOL at the fan who said we overpayed for Rasmus.

That Rasmus deal could end up an amazing deal.

We basically only gave up Marc Zep and Zach Stewart for him

It already was an amazing deal, the Cards won the World Series because of it.

craigerlee
01-31-2012, 01:15 PM
It already was an amazing deal, the Cards won the World Series because of it.

I really don't care what the Cardinals did or didn't do because of this deal, the fact remains we weren't gonna win anything holding on to Dotel, Frasor, Rzep and Patterson. Now that we have Frasor back we essentially only gave up Dotel(who we were gonna lose at season ends anyways), Patterson(garbage that we were losing anyways), Rzep(probably a reliever) and Stewart(probably a back end starter). I'll give up a reliever and a back end starter any day of the week if I can land 3 years of control of 5 tool CF who has all star potential.

Sanyo
01-31-2012, 01:19 PM
Well Rogers has more to lose then any of you can imagine -- owning the Jays they obviously want to make money so its not like they can be re-building forever. They tried from 2005-2009 to contend and there were too many flops (Wells, Rios, Ryan, Burnett, Overbay, Rolen, Glaus etc-- heyy remember those flops!) and that hindered the Jays to win. So now the Jays want to re-build from within. Im fine with that, if the Jays had a farm ranked 20th or worse than I would be wary but the Jays now have a top 3 farm with more being added atleast in 2012 so it will continue to get stronger. I say the Jays will try to milk the revenue sharing until it dries up and then go out and make the contention move.

They know full well if the Jays aren't competing, they have no one watching the game on tv which kills their ad revenue, no one coming to the park which kills their gate, as well as merch and food revenue. With revenue sharing almost at zero for them cause of the market size in whatever the heck the change is suppose to come, the Jays will have to spend or face a demise. I'm sure the organization knows this, so just be patient, wont kill ya to have one or two more years of re-build.

scaramantula
01-31-2012, 01:19 PM
every time were close to finally having a successful rebuild people want to go out and sign high price free agents, did signing Burnett, Ryan and Thomas help us that much?

why all the lind hate? I realize he hasn't put up great numbers, but his first 2 years he was dh (who ever heard of a 26 year old dh?) and last year he was learning a new position.

rebuilding takes time, and if we spend on big time players before were ready it could ruin the plans for the future, AA says he wants a team that can compete for 10 yrs, Prince can't do that if we built the team around him we'd be done in 3-5 yrs, with no championships and a few playoff appearances.

2009mvp
01-31-2012, 01:27 PM
Well Rogers has more to lose then any of you can imagine -- owning the Jays they obviously want to make money so its not like they can be re-building forever. They tried from 2005-2009 to contend and there were too many flops (Wells, Rios, Ryan, Burnett, Overbay, Rolen, Glaus etc-- heyy remember those flops!) and that hindered the Jays to win. So now the Jays want to re-build from within. Im fine with that, if the Jays had a farm ranked 20th or worse than I would be wary but the Jays now have a top 3 farm with more being added atleast in 2012 so it will continue to get stronger. I say the Jays will try to milk the revenue sharing until it dries up and then go out and make the contention move.

They know full well if the Jays aren't competing, they have no one watching the game on tv which kills their ad revenue, no one coming to the park which kills their gate, as well as merch and food revenue. With revenue sharing almost at zero for them cause of the market size in whatever the heck the change is suppose to come, the Jays will have to spend or face a demise. I'm sure the organization knows this, so just be patient, wont kill ya to have one or two more years of re-build.

Well that's just not true. They haven't been competing and ratings have been pretty steady. Just by virtue of nothing else being on in the heart of summer baseball will always have strong viewership.

craigerlee
01-31-2012, 01:28 PM
Has anyone noticed that in the last couple days there has been a lot more information coming out about what the Jays did this offseason? For instance its been all but confirmed Oswalt would not accept any offer from the Jays, Uehara blocked a trade from the Jays, Jays balked at Lawrie for Pineda deal, and Beltran wouldn't come here cause of Turf and Dhing. Its great to hear how active the Jays have been, and if the Jays made all those moves aside from the Lawrie deal I would of really liked our chances of nabbing that last playoff spot. I know AA loves keeping things so secretive but its nice for a fan when they get some transparency once and while. Still don't see the harm in telling us if they bid on Darvish or not, its the end of the offseason and no remaining free agent can use that to get more money out of the Jays.

Sanyo
01-31-2012, 01:37 PM
Well that's just not true. They haven't been competing and ratings have been pretty steady. Just by virtue of nothing else being on in the heart of summer baseball will always have strong viewership.

I was saying Rogers knows if they do not compete they will lose viewers. Yes there will always be some people watching cause nothing else is on, but the Jays have never really been awful since 1998 except for 2004 when they went 67-94 (and mind you cause of that bad year we got Ricky Romero!).

If the Jays have a few seasons of 67-94 I can assure you viewers will dwindle -- the Jays have never been super bad for the fans to turn away so its never had issues yet with things like tv ratings -- and this year arguably alot of people watched cause of the young guys, I think the Jays had a record year with tv ratings -- but hey Im not the one who's complaining about not spending money so I'll be watching regardless anyways...its the others who complain and whine and then continue to tune in...

mike_noodles
01-31-2012, 01:38 PM
I really don't care what the Cardinals did or didn't do because of this deal, the fact remains we weren't gonna win anything holding on to Dotel, Frasor, Rzep and Patterson. Now that we have Frasor back we essentially only gave up Dotel(who we were gonna lose at season ends anyways), Patterson(garbage that we were losing anyways), Rzep(probably a reliever) and Stewart(probably a back end starter). I'll give up a reliever and a back end starter any day of the week if I can land 3 years of control of 5 tool CF who has all star potential.

+2 low end prospects to get Frasor back.

I know we didn't give much up really to get the guy, but Jays fans are highly overrating this guy IMO, he has had one decent season. He hasn't shown me anything that would lead me to believe he is a 5 tool CF. Also I believe speed/baserunning ability is one of these tools you speak of. He is not really a threat to run with his career high being 12/20 for 60%, that's not very good for a 5 tool player imo. Another tool is hitting for average, which he has not even come close to doing in his big league career. That leaves him with 3 stars. I honestly believe that the Cards new exactly what they were doing by trading him away.

Rogi10
01-31-2012, 01:38 PM
This argument of "wasting Bautista's prime" seems silly to me. First, at age 35 Bautista will still be an OBP machine, most likely still one of the best at getting on base. Sure his power would decline, but even AROD at 36, and playing 3b for a long period of time is still a top of the order threat.

Jose Bautista at 35 (that is the extreme btw) would still be a valuable 4-6 hitter. If we look at this from a GM's perspective. I sense that he knows Bautista will still be immensly valuable later on in his career .

Right now Bautista is a one dimensional player, specifically, he can hit the **** out of a ball, but, his defense is terrible. I would much rather have an outfield of Gose/Marsinick/snider (assuming they become average-above average players) with an older Bautista at DH/1B.

So, what does this mumbo jumbo mean?

The Jays are not wasting Jose Bautista, but merely seeting up a future roster that has the potential to have the best DH in the game, and a greatly improved outfield defensive core. Trading Bautista seems unncessary, when he can still fill a role on the Jays even in his declining years.

Thus, keeping an older Bautista = having one the best DH's in the game at a cheap price, and having an outfield defence that is leaps ahead of the current one.

Oh, and if you believe in the marketing stuff, he provides that star power that can hold the fans until they start fielding a better team.

scaramantula
01-31-2012, 01:39 PM
+2 low end prospects to get Frasor back.

I know we didn't give much up really to get the guy, but Jays fans are highly overrating this guy IMO, he has had one decent season. He hasn't shown me anything that would lead me to believe he is a 5 tool CF. Also I believe speed/baserunning ability is one of these tools you speak of. He is not really a threat to run with his career high being 12/20 for 60%, that's not very good for a 5 tool player imo. Another tool is hitting for average, which he has not even come close to doing in his big league career. That leaves him with 3 stars. I honestly believe that the Cards new exactly what they were doing by trading him away.

yeah, hes a low risk high reward type guy, i kinda always thought he was there to give gose a little more time to develop

mtf
01-31-2012, 01:41 PM
There have been numerous times where the Jays played meaningful games earlier in the season and the fans didn't come out. Sure they came up short when it comes to the playoffs but if the fans had shown more excitement, maybe they would have pulled a deadline deal or something. I think the same situation exists right now.

I'm not sure what sort of meaningful games you're referring to. I know for the games that can be classified as "events", fans fill the Rogers Center; Opening Day, Canada Day, Roy Halladay's return. Hell, I was there a few years ago when AJ Burnett made his return and faced off against Halladay and the stadium was sold out.

I really don't know what meaningful early-season games you're talking about, but the fans come out when there's a legitimate show.

jaysfan4ever
01-31-2012, 01:48 PM
No, the Jays haven't been nearly as good as the Rangers when you adjust for schedule. Not by any stretch of the imagination. The Jays had a better offence in 2010 but the defence was significantly worse. Maybe you could make an argument about the pitching. But you'll notice the Rangers did it with a combo of homegrown (Wilson, Harrison, Ogando, Feliz, Holland etc), and smart FA like Lewis. And the 2010 team was boosted midseason by Lee once they proved they were capable of competing. They didn't make the big moves before the team proved it could handle competing. It wasn't till after they made the playoffs they spent on guys like Darvish.

So I'm going to attempt an adjustment of what the Rangers record would look like in 2010 and 2011 if they switched divisions with the Jays. Basically I'm taking the Rangers W-L records against each division, and applying the Jays unbalanced schedule.


Rangers in 2010: 25-18 vs. AL Central (.581), 3-7 vs. Jays (.300), 16-18 vs. AL East without the Jays (.471), 32-25 vs. AL West (.561), 14-4 vs. Interleague (.778)

Jays in 2010: 41 games vs. the AL Central, 10 games vs. the Rangers, 72 games vs. the AL East, 21 games vs. the AL West without the Rangers, 18 games vs. Interleague

Taking the Rangers' Win Pct. against each group of opponents, and applying the Jays unbalanced schedule gives us:

24-17 vs. AL Central (.585), 3-7 vs. Jays (.300), 34-38 vs. AL East (.472), 12-9 vs. AL West (.571), 14-4 vs. Interleague (.778)


So Rangers in 2010 in the AL East: 87-75


That's 2 games behind the Red Sox for 4th in the AL East and 8 games behind the Yankees for the Wild Card. The Jays by comparison finished only 2 games worse at 85-77.


Rangers in 2011: 25-18 vs. AL Central (.581), 4-6 vs. Jays (.400), 18-16 vs. AL East without the Jays (.529), 40-17 vs. AL West (.702), 9-9 vs. Interleague (.500)

Jays in 2011: 33 games vs. the AL Central, 10 games vs. the Rangers, 72 games vs. the AL East, 29 games vs. the AL West without the Rangers, 18 games vs. Interleague

Taking the Rangers' Win Pct. against each group of opponents, and applying the Jays unbalanced schedule gives us:

19-14 vs. AL Central (.576), 4-6 vs. Jays (.400), 38-34 vs. AL East (.528), 20-9 vs. AL West (.690), 9-9 vs. Interleague (.500)


So Rangers in 2011 in the AL East: 90-72

That puts the Rangers tied for 3rd in the AL East with the Red Sox, and 1 game back of the Rays for the Wild Card. At 9 games ahead of the Jays they were definitely much better. But, still not good enough to make the playoffs in the AL East.


So yeah, while the World Series finalist Rangers were better than the Jays the last 2 years. They weren't better than the Sox or Rays, and wouldn't have made the playoffs in the AL East. That's why I choose the Rays model.

craigerlee
01-31-2012, 01:51 PM
+2 low end prospects to get Frasor back.

I know we didn't give much up really to get the guy, but Jays fans are highly overrating this guy IMO, he has had one decent season. He hasn't shown me anything that would lead me to believe he is a 5 tool CF. Also I believe speed/baserunning ability is one of these tools you speak of. He is not really a threat to run with his career high being 12/20 for 60%, that's not very good for a 5 tool player imo. Another tool is hitting for average, which he has not even come close to doing in his big league career. That leaves him with 3 stars. I honestly believe that the Cards new exactly what they were doing by trading him away.

He's only played 3 seasons and one season was his rookie year. He's also still fairly young. He still has excellent speed regardless of whether he steals bases or not, he can still turn doubles into triples or singles into doubles and stay out of the double play. Your probably right about the hitting for average he'll probably max out as .280 hitter but if he gets on base and continues to draw walks I could care less about his average. There's so much upside there that even if he puts up the numbers he did for the first half of the season when he was with the Cards that's still more value than what we gave up.

Of course the Cards knew exactly what they were doing, they knew that TLR was gonna continue to play Jon Jay over Rasmus cause he hated Rasmus. So they had to get something useful back for Rasmus, and Jackson, Dotel, and Rzep were something that would help the team in the short term.

StayOnBoard
01-31-2012, 01:53 PM
I'm saying neither. AA wouldn't give out stupid contracts like that.


All contracts at the range Fielder got is a "stupid contract"



CJ Wilson would've probably been nice.


The same Wilson who took less money to play with the angels in his home? You think he's coming to Toronto? C'mon...



But for the most part, we should've looked to spend $10M on guys that we trade for. Quentin would've been a GREAT add.


Completely agree - I would have really liked Quentin too, even if he was a full time DH. That said, who knows what the Sox were asking for (though given what San Diego gave up, it looks like not much).



And I would've overpaid for Latos. I can't see how Alonso is a better prospect than Snider


Can't tell if your serious?? If you can't, then you should look closer... Snider's value is at an all time low - if you can't see how Alonso is worth more or a better prospect than Snider I don't know what to tell you.



seeing as Snider's actually younger and has much more ML-experience.


Yes, that's correct... much more "not good" ML-experience. Weren't you guys trying to run Snider out of town? Now he's a better prospect than Alonso? Not to mention the rest of the package the Reds gave up to get Latos.



Just one of these 2 guys would've made a big difference I think. Heck, even a Brandon McCarthy or maybe Brett Myers/Wandy Rodriguez might work, instead of Francisco Cordero and Jason Frasor.

Brett Myers and Wandy Rodriguez aren't really that good and are WAY overpaid. I'd take one of them if the Astros ate 90% of their salary but why would they do that? They want to win "some" games this year, if they trade them I'd expect they'd take on no more than half salary, and I'd expect they'd still end up with a decent prospect or two back in the trade. Personally, I'd rather have Hutch and Drabek battle it out and try to improve, rather than have Wandy for the next few years at 10 mil a season. That said, I can see your point and don't really disagree with the rest (though, no idea what McCarthy would cost in a trade).

nithanyo
01-31-2012, 02:03 PM
Atleast he's not overbay

Twitchy
01-31-2012, 02:15 PM
So I'm going to attempt an adjustment of what the Rangers record would look like in 2010 and 2011 if they switched divisions with the Jays. Basically I'm taking the Rangers W-L records against each division, and applying the Jays unbalanced schedule.


Rangers in 2010: 25-18 vs. AL Central (.581), 3-7 vs. Jays (.300), 16-18 vs. AL East without the Jays (.471), 32-25 vs. AL West (.561), 14-4 vs. Interleague (.778)

Jays in 2010: 41 games vs. the AL Central, 10 games vs. the Rangers, 72 games vs. the AL East, 21 games vs. the AL West without the Rangers, 18 games vs. Interleague

Taking the Rangers' Win Pct. against each group of opponents, and applying the Jays unbalanced schedule gives us:

24-17 vs. AL Central (.585), 3-7 vs. Jays (.300), 34-38 vs. AL East (.472), 12-9 vs. AL West (.571), 14-4 vs. Interleague (.778)


So Rangers in 2010 in the AL East: 87-75


That's 2 games behind the Red Sox for 4th in the AL East and 8 games behind the Yankees for the Wild Card. The Jays by comparison finished only 2 games worse at 85-77.


Rangers in 2011: 25-18 vs. AL Central (.581), 4-6 vs. Jays (.400), 18-16 vs. AL East without the Jays (.529), 40-17 vs. AL West (.702), 9-9 vs. Interleague (.500)

Jays in 2011: 33 games vs. the AL Central, 10 games vs. the Rangers, 72 games vs. the AL East, 29 games vs. the AL West without the Rangers, 18 games vs. Interleague

Taking the Rangers' Win Pct. against each group of opponents, and applying the Jays unbalanced schedule gives us:

19-14 vs. AL Central (.576), 4-6 vs. Jays (.400), 38-34 vs. AL East (.528), 20-9 vs. AL West (.690), 9-9 vs. Interleague (.500)


So Rangers in 2011 in the AL East: 90-72

That puts the Rangers tied for 3rd in the AL East with the Red Sox, and 1 game back of the Rays for the Wild Card. At 9 games ahead of the Jays they were definitely much better. But, still not good enough to make the playoffs in the AL East.


So yeah, while the World Series finalist Rangers were better than the Jays the last 2 years. They weren't better than the Sox or Rays, and wouldn't have made the playoffs in the AL East. That's why I choose the Rays model.

You put a lot of work into that but unfortunately it just doesn't work that way. You can't compare records and assume that if two teams played each other more often that their records would remain the same.

As an aside, choosing the Rays model is doing the exact same thing I suggested just without the benefit of being able to spend once you've made the playoffs. So if that last comment is referring to the Jays following the Rays model, you're arguing in favour of my point, being not to spend until after your team proves it can make it to the playoffs or at least be in first/second by the July 31 deadline (and within striking distance or having a lead for the division/WC).

I never said don't spend on free agency. I just said you have to be smart and make signings like Colby Lewis who have high upside and don't cost a lot as opposed to the Adrian Beltre or Darvish signings, to stick with the Texas metaphor. The latter signings can come once you've shown you're capable of competing.

mike_noodles
01-31-2012, 02:27 PM
yeah, hes a low risk high reward type guy, i kinda always thought he was there to give gose a little more time to develop


He's only played 3 seasons and one season was his rookie year. He's also still fairly young. He still has excellent speed regardless of whether he steals bases or not, he can still turn doubles into triples or singles into doubles and stay out of the double play. Your probably right about the hitting for average he'll probably max out as .280 hitter but if he gets on base and continues to draw walks I could care less about his average. There's so much upside there that even if he puts up the numbers he did for the first half of the season when he was with the Cards that's still more value than what we gave up.

Of course the Cards knew exactly what they were doing, they knew that TLR was gonna continue to play Jon Jay over Rasmus cause he hated Rasmus. So they had to get something useful back for Rasmus, and Jackson, Dotel, and Rzep were something that would help the team in the short term.

Yeah, you guys are probably right. AA probably figured that it was well worth the risk, if Rasmus reaches his potential, it's a good deal, if he doesn't, at least Gose will be ready in a couple more years. Hopefully I'm wrong and Rasmus can get it going this year for us, I'm definitely not rooting against the guy.

jaysfan4ever
01-31-2012, 03:19 PM
All contracts at the range Fielder got is a "stupid contract"

Agreed. The Werth, Fielder, and Crawford contracts were stupid.


The same Wilson who took less money to play with the angels in his home? You think he's coming to Toronto? C'mon...

If we gave him $95M over 5 years, why not?


Completely agree - I would have really liked Quentin too, even if he was a full time DH. That said, who knows what the Sox were asking for (though given what San Diego gave up, it looks like not much).

Yeah, San Diego gave up nothing for him. And everyone knew that Quentin was available. He'd be a great DH for us I think, 30 HR-guy, what we thought Lind would be this year.


Can't tell if your serious?? If you can't, then you should look closer... Snider's value is at an all time low - if you can't see how Alonso is worth more or a better prospect than Snider I don't know what to tell you.

How is Alonso better? Based on his 88 part-time at-bats this year? Snider's minor league numbers are much better, and he reached the Majors much quicker. Snider has shown more power in the Majors (18HRs, 35 doubles per 520ABs) than Alonso has in the minors lol. Plus, Snider is also a better fielder by most accounts.


Yes, that's correct... much more "not good" ML-experience. Weren't you guys trying to run Snider out of town? Now he's a better prospect than Alonso? Not to mention the rest of the package the Reds gave up to get Latos.

Snider's a top OF prospect, and most GMs would pay us accordingly in a trade. With our other OF prospects, I'd trade Snider, but it's not like anyone wants to "give" him away. Watch him hit 25HRs this year lol. The thing with Snider though, is it looks like he'd benefit from a change of scenery, as there have been a lot of issues with him and the coaching staff. The talent is absolutely there, and he's still one of the youngest players in the Majors.

With the rest of the package, MLB.com has Gose and Marisnick just ahead of Yasmani Grandal. And with how injury-prone Volquez has been, Brett Cecil is probably even with him. So Snider, Gose/Marisnick, Cecil and a low-level spec is a pretty close package to what San Diego got.


Brett Myers and Wandy Rodriguez aren't really that good and are WAY overpaid. I'd take one of them if the Astros ate 90% of their salary but why would they do that? They want to win "some" games this year, if they trade them I'd expect they'd take on no more than half salary, and I'd expect they'd still end up with a decent prospect or two back in the trade. Personally, I'd rather have Hutch and Drabek battle it out and try to improve, rather than have Wandy for the next few years at 10 mil a season. That said, I can see your point and don't really disagree with the rest (though, no idea what McCarthy would cost in a trade).

For Myers the Astros actually said they'd eat 90% of his salary, because it would get them a prospect who's as good as Myers without the contract. With Wandy I think they were willing to eat about half. Knowing the Astros approach to free agency, they'd likely sign a 1-year fill-in for Myers/Wandy so that they don't lose every game this year.

You're right, neither guy would be great, they'd probably be #3-4 starters in the AL East, but that's a lot better than what we have now, which really lacks depth. With Quentin and Myers/Wandy and a 2nd WC spot, I think we're a playoff contender. Plus it wouldn't cost much in terms of prospects, and only about $10M.

I'm up for giving Drabek and Cecil major league experience to develop IF we can grab a frontline starter at the deadline. Then it would've made sense to pass on these mid-to-back end guys that would clutter our rotation.

craigerlee
01-31-2012, 03:28 PM
How is Alonso better? Based on his 88 part-time at-bats this year? Snider's minor league numbers are much better, and he reached the Majors much quicker. Snider has shown more power in the Majors (18HRs, 35 doubles per 520ABs) than Alonso has in the minors lol. Plus, Snider is also a better fielder by most accounts.

In actuality he might not be, but the fact Snider has failed twice at the major league level really crashes his value. Alonso is yet to fail and I think that's why he's much more touted than Snider right now. Anyways Grandal was just as vital to that trade as Alonso was. I really don't know what it would of cost to beat that deal but I'm assuming it starts with D'Arnaud, Gose/Marisnick and a decent pitching spec. Can't forget to, Snider has only one more option so if he can't stick this year he's pretty much worthless to a team that doesn't wanna play him full time.


With the rest of the package, MLB.com has Gose and Marisnick just ahead of Yasmani Grandal. And with how injury-prone Volquez has been, Brett Cecil is probably even with him. So Snider, Gose/Marisnick, Cecil and a low-level spec is a pretty close package to what San Diego got.

I wouldn't exactly use Mayo's prospect list as the barometer for how GM's value prospects, he's got Casey Kelly at 50 still which is quite poor and even worst Banuelos at 13. Also you can't just assume you swap in Marisnick/Gose for Grandal, Padres probably wanted a catcher in the deal AKA they probably wanted D'Arnaud.

StayOnBoard
01-31-2012, 03:30 PM
If we gave him $95M over 5 years, why not?

Because... he wanted to play at home.

I'll try this another way.... he didn't want to come to Toronto.

Or another way.... he did not want to come to Toronto.

Am I making this clear? He did.not.want.to.come.to.Toronto. Do you understand? Throwing an extra few million at year wasn't going to bring him to Toronto. The Marlins already offered him MORE money, he wanted to go to LA.... His words, not mine "if I cared about money, I would be in Miami". He wasn't coming here....


Yeah, San Diego gave up nothing for him. And everyone knew that Quentin was available. He'd be a great DH for us I think, 30 HR-guy, what we thought Lind would be this year.

Agreed, I don't understand not grabbing him either but we have no idea what was offered or the reasoning behind it. I was a bit miffed we didn't take a run at him too but I did read the Jays/Sox did discuss a trade around Quentin but it fell through. I have no idea what the cause of that was....


How is Alonso better? Based on his 88 part-time at-bats this year? Snider's minor league numbers are much better, and he reached the Majors much quicker. Snider has shown more power in the Majors (18HRs, 35 doubles per 520ABs) than Alonso has in the minors lol. Plus, Snider is also a better fielder by most accounts.

While I see the argument your trying to make, no one gives a **** about minor league stats after the guy has been in the big-leagues for as long as Snider has. If he doesn't turn it on this year he'll be another Lasting Millage, good prospect who will be over in Japan in a few years. I still have faith in Snider, I still think he can turn it on and be a great player but there's no way his value is anywhere near what it used to be when those stats actually mattered.


Snider's a top OF prospect, and most GMs would pay us accordingly in a trade. With our other OF prospects, I'd trade Snider, but it's not like anyone wants to "give" him away. Watch him hit 25HRs this year lol. The thing with Snider though, is it looks like he'd benefit from a change of scenery, as there have been a lot of issues with him and the coaching staff. The talent is absolutely there, and he's still one of the youngest players in the Majors.

Completely agree


With the rest of the package, MLB.com has Gose and Marisnick just ahead of Yasmani Grandal. And with how injury-prone Volquez has been, Brett Cecil is probably even with him. So Snider, Gose/Marisnick, Cecil and a low-level spec is a pretty close package to what San Diego got.

If you add in d'Arnaud, you might be right.... and that's assuming the Padres even wanted Snider (which I have my doubts). But yes, you might have gotten him for d'Arnaud, Gose/Marisnick, Cecil and another prospect. Still an awful lot, I can't really blame AA for not pulling the trigger (though I'd love to have Latos as well, can't lie).


For Myers the Astros actually said they'd eat 90% of his salary, because it would get them a prospect who's as good as Myers without the contract. With Wandy I think they were willing to eat about half. Knowing the Astros approach to free agency, they'd likely sign a 1-year fill-in for Myers/Wandy so that they don't lose every game this year.

You're right, neither guy would be great, they'd probably be #3-4 starters in the AL East, but that's a lot better than what we have now, which really lacks depth. With Quentin and Myers/Wandy and a 2nd WC spot, I think we're a playoff contender. Plus it wouldn't cost much in terms of prospects, and only about $10M.


This is where you are losing me... do you REALLY think we are Quentin and Myers away from a playoff spot? Really? If that's the case all these doom and gloom posts are severely overblown. If I thought we were this close - I'd go out and buy season tickets, as we'll be winning 89+ games this year.


I'm up for giving Drabek and Cecil major league experience to develop IF we can grab a frontline starter at the deadline. Then it would've made sense to pass on these mid-to-back end guys that would clutter our rotation.

Again, I agree - I think giving Cecil and Drabek time is the right choice and then add a front line starter when available. I just don't agree with selling the farm for a guy like Gio or Latos when you have so many promising kids coming through the system. The rest of your arguments I agree with.

Bob_at_york
01-31-2012, 04:25 PM
Agreed, I don't understand not grabbing him either but we have no idea what was offered or the reasoning behind it. I was a bit miffed we didn't take a run at him too but I did read the Jays/Sox did discuss a trade around Quentin but it fell through. I have no idea what the cause of that was....

I honestly think that Snider if healthy could out-perform Q this season. Also, I wouldn't be surprised with the flack that Kenny Williams got for the Santos trade that he wasn't comfortable making a 2nd trade with AA this offseason.

killersweet
01-31-2012, 04:53 PM
No we haven't. We have built a team a couple of times since then and found that the teams sucked and then we had to tear them down and rebuild.

How often did we come close to making the playoffs after 1993? Poor teams were built and then rebuilt. It has been a cycle. JPR started off nicely and then went downhill. After his mess, now AA is rebuilding.

killersweet
01-31-2012, 05:00 PM
People just dont get it.

AA cannot be responsible for things happening before him - his timeline is not 1993. His timeline started on 2009 - How do you expect to build a contender with only 3 years of work? As a first year GM his first task was to trade the franchise best player (Halladay) for prospects. When he started in 2009 his job was to tear down the team and REBUILD into a long-term winner. No one is naive enough to believe this team is ready to contend only three years after his start of a rebuild, right? Also factor in that this is the AL East. The Jays are not ready.

Not one of AA's draft picks in his first draft in 2010 has made the MLB. How can we be ready or expect them to be big spenders.

And how many times does it need to be said... Off-season activity does not equal success. Look at the World Series Champs they biggest move they made was Lance Berkman. Boston added Crawford and Gonzalez and missed the playoffs.

Dude, did you read my post? Did I single out AA for the mess? I just criticized the ownerships/managments since the last world series days. I have been following this team since 1991 (That's when I came to this country) and after all the world series championship teams, we were given few good seasons and rest of them were a mess. And we are always optimistic about our teams. Yet, the ownerships/managements have been incompetent.

jaysfan4ever
01-31-2012, 06:23 PM
Because... he wanted to play at home.

I'll try this another way.... he didn't want to come to Toronto.

Or another way.... he did not want to come to Toronto.

Am I making this clear? He did.not.want.to.come.to.Toronto. Do you understand? Throwing an extra few million at year wasn't going to bring him to Toronto. The Marlins already offered him MORE money, he wanted to go to LA.... His words, not mine "if I cared about money, I would be in Miami". He wasn't coming here....

Yeah, I'm gonna drop this lol.


Agreed, I don't understand not grabbing him either but we have no idea what was offered or the reasoning behind it. I was a bit miffed we didn't take a run at him too but I did read the Jays/Sox did discuss a trade around Quentin but it fell through. I have no idea what the cause of that was....

Yeah, if it's major health concerns I guess I'll give AA a pass on that one. Otherwise, man he'd look great behind Bautista.


While I see the argument your trying to make, no one gives a **** about minor league stats after the guy has been in the big-leagues for as long as Snider has. If he doesn't turn it on this year he'll be another Lasting Millage, good prospect who will be over in Japan in a few years. I still have faith in Snider, I still think he can turn it on and be a great player but there's no way his value is anywhere near what it used to be when those stats actually mattered.

Yeah, I guess I just think that Alonso, isn't anything close to the sure thing people make him out to be.


If you add in d'Arnaud, you might be right.... and that's assuming the Padres even wanted Snider (which I have my doubts). But yes, you might have gotten him for d'Arnaud, Gose/Marisnick, Cecil and another prospect. Still an awful lot, I can't really blame AA for not pulling the trigger (though I'd love to have Latos as well, can't lie).

d'Arnaud is better than Alonso imho. Alonso's an almost-25 year old 1B prospect. In a year he'll probably be Justin Smoak lol.

But yeah, I'd probably still give up the package you suggested. I'd say it's a bit of an overpayment, but definitely worth it to get a 24 year old top-of-the-rotation starter.


This is where you are losing me... do you REALLY think we are Quentin and Myers away from a playoff spot? Really? If that's the case all these doom and gloom posts are severely overblown. If I thought we were this close - I'd go out and buy season tickets, as we'll be winning 89+ games this year.

I think we're an 86 win team right now. And with Myers and Quentin, we're an 88-89 win team imho. That might not be enough to make the playoffs, but it would make things pretty close in the AL East. And being in a pennant race, the fans will come out, and Rogers will finally spend some money.


Again, I agree - I think giving Cecil and Drabek time is the right choice and then add a front line starter when available. I just don't agree with selling the farm for a guy like Gio or Latos when you have so many promising kids coming through the system. The rest of your arguments I agree with.

Gio was a huge overpayment. Maybe I don't value Cincy's prospects as much as other people. Thats why I didn't think the Latos package was reasonable.

We agree on most things though.

scotttube
01-31-2012, 11:27 PM
Something something AL East, something something payroll parameters, something something more fans in seats.

Sanyo
02-01-2012, 12:33 AM
http://sports.nationalpost.com/2012/01/18/jays-alex-anthopoulos-deserves-patience/

Perfect article on AA and why some of you guys need to be patient! Something i completely advocate and continue to stand by...

bomber0104
02-01-2012, 12:53 AM
So I'm going to attempt an adjustment of what the Rangers record would look like in 2010 and 2011 if they switched divisions with the Jays. Basically I'm taking the Rangers W-L records against each division, and applying the Jays unbalanced schedule.


Rangers in 2010: 25-18 vs. AL Central (.581), 3-7 vs. Jays (.300), 16-18 vs. AL East without the Jays (.471), 32-25 vs. AL West (.561), 14-4 vs. Interleague (.778)

Jays in 2010: 41 games vs. the AL Central, 10 games vs. the Rangers, 72 games vs. the AL East, 21 games vs. the AL West without the Rangers, 18 games vs. Interleague

Taking the Rangers' Win Pct. against each group of opponents, and applying the Jays unbalanced schedule gives us:

24-17 vs. AL Central (.585), 3-7 vs. Jays (.300), 34-38 vs. AL East (.472), 12-9 vs. AL West (.571), 14-4 vs. Interleague (.778)


So Rangers in 2010 in the AL East: 87-75


That's 2 games behind the Red Sox for 4th in the AL East and 8 games behind the Yankees for the Wild Card. The Jays by comparison finished only 2 games worse at 85-77.


Rangers in 2011: 25-18 vs. AL Central (.581), 4-6 vs. Jays (.400), 18-16 vs. AL East without the Jays (.529), 40-17 vs. AL West (.702), 9-9 vs. Interleague (.500)

Jays in 2011: 33 games vs. the AL Central, 10 games vs. the Rangers, 72 games vs. the AL East, 29 games vs. the AL West without the Rangers, 18 games vs. Interleague

Taking the Rangers' Win Pct. against each group of opponents, and applying the Jays unbalanced schedule gives us:

19-14 vs. AL Central (.576), 4-6 vs. Jays (.400), 38-34 vs. AL East (.528), 20-9 vs. AL West (.690), 9-9 vs. Interleague (.500)


So Rangers in 2011 in the AL East: 90-72

That puts the Rangers tied for 3rd in the AL East with the Red Sox, and 1 game back of the Rays for the Wild Card. At 9 games ahead of the Jays they were definitely much better. But, still not good enough to make the playoffs in the AL East.


So yeah, while the World Series finalist Rangers were better than the Jays the last 2 years. They weren't better than the Sox or Rays, and wouldn't have made the playoffs in the AL East. That's why I choose the Rays model.

Although I do agree with you that the Rangers in the East don't make the playoffs and the Jays in the West do, your calculations are ignoring a lot of factors.

You are ignoring the fact that instead of facing the Jays, a team that all AL East powerhouses pretty much dominate, they would be facing a better team in the Rangers which would hurt their record.

But then again, you could say that the effect of facing teams like the yankees and Red Sox could last past the series and affect the team in the follwoing games

jaysfan4ever
02-01-2012, 03:18 PM
Although I do agree with you that the Rangers in the East don't make the playoffs and the Jays in the West do, your calculations are ignoring a lot of factors.

You are ignoring the fact that instead of facing the Jays, a team that all AL East powerhouses pretty much dominate, they would be facing a better team in the Rangers which would hurt their record.

But then again, you could say that the effect of facing teams like the yankees and Red Sox could last past the series and affect the team in the follwoing games

Yeah, both are definitely valid points going each way.

The win totals were estimates, using what I thought were the major factors. The "real" number could be a few wins more or less.


I'm gonna go back to the "win before we can spend" stance by Rogers. Using my adjustment, I'm arguing that the Rangers in the AL East wouldn't have won. That the Rangers weren't able to "win" by holding onto their cash, because the AL East is just way too competitive. That it's realistically impossible for AA to draft and trade the Jays into the playoffs within 4 years of his hiring, unless the Jays spend. In the 5th year, 2014, sure the Jays might make the playoffs holding their money. Bautista will be 34 though, with 2 years left on his contract, and probably a declining player at that point.

Now the Rays are the one team that has been able to win, and that has a lot to do with them tanking for a decade. As I've said earlier, those high draft picks got them Longoria, Price, Upton, Delmon Young (traded for Garza and Bartlett), and Niemann. Since we don't have those high draft picks, the best opportunities to get top-level talent is to spend. By spending, that means either free agent spending or it could mean trading a bunch of cost-controlled prospects for an expensive star. Granted, there are a few opportunities to get elite talent by investing in scouting and drafting, and making smart trades. There's no evidence of that being sustainable though.

Ideally, we spend this year, acquiring 2 elite players through trade or free agency and are a solid playoff team in 2013 with Bautista still in his prime. That way, the team generates a ton of buzz and the revenues will go up big time with a winner in the Rogers Centre. All we need from Rogers is say, a $25-30M investment that could end up yielding a profit.




http://sports.nationalpost.com/2012/01/18/jays-alex-anthopoulos-deserves-patience/

Perfect article on AA and why some of you guys need to be patient! Something i completely advocate and continue to stand by...

Or impatient with Rogers, like it said at the end :p

phillipmike
02-01-2012, 03:42 PM
Dude, did you read my post? Did I single out AA for the mess? I just criticized the ownerships/managments since the last world series days. I have been following this team since 1991 (That's when I came to this country) and after all the world series championship teams, we were given few good seasons and rest of them were a mess. And we are always optimistic about our teams. Yet, the ownerships/managements have been incompetent.

JP and the other GMS were given all the money they needed to succeed and they failed.

Ownership has been very committed. They gave the Jays enough funds to keep their franchise players like Halladay and Wells. The reason why the teams fail to win anything is because the GMs before AA has not made the right moves.

Rogers bought and improved the stadium. And are now seriously researching bringing in real grass.

AA runs the baseball team and financial commitment does not equal success. Making the right decisions do and based on the decision-making process of the GM. AA has stated that from his DMP he determined that player like Darvish and Fielder (etc.) at their price tags did not make sense. He and Beeston has also stated that ownership has NEVER turned him down when he asked for more money to make the team better.

Ownership has never been incompetent, the blame falls on the past management now they made the right hires in Beeston and AA - they are now collecting the rewards.


Lot of Blue Jays fans are so easy to please man. No wonder the management can get away with a bad off season. Playing .500 baseball is not considered a success to me. As fan, I want our team in the playoffs. In the last decade, our team is out of contention by mid June or July. It is not fun after that. Toronto franchises keep delivering mediocre products and we keep accepting them.
As for rebuilding, I am sick and tired of it. Rebuilding is happening because of terrible mismanagement of the franchise. We have been rebuilding since 1994.

Looks like you did criticize AA. AA is responsible for the off-season activity.

The ownership does not build the product on the field, management does. AA is the GM so i think you are blaming him.

Rebuild has nothing to do with ownership. It has everything to do with the product on the field which is in direct relation with the moves management makes and how the players play.

So yes to me it looks like you are criticizing AA - could be wrong but is is quite clear you are upset about the off-season and the product of the field which is what AA is in charge of not ownership.

Sanyo
02-01-2012, 03:44 PM
Anytime anyone brings up Mayo, reminds me of Joe Mayo from Seinfeld with his damn fur coat! I could see Mayo with the fur coat ranking his prospects -- hopefully not nude...

wamco
02-02-2012, 09:23 AM
Also, I wouldn't be surprised with the flack that Kenny Williams got for the Santos trade that he wasn't comfortable making a 2nd trade with AA this offseason.[/QUOTE]

really?

wamco
02-02-2012, 09:25 AM
JP and the other GMS were given all the money they needed to succeed and they failed.

I must have missed those years, which ones were they? Average Payroll under this ownership is like 80M

StayOnBoard
02-02-2012, 10:35 AM
I must have missed those years, which ones were they? Average Payroll under this ownership is like 80M

I agree, you must have missed it.

In 2008 - the Blue Jays had 4 people under contract at 44 million.... Troy Glaus, Roy Hallady, BJ Ryan, & AJ Burnett. During the same year, the Blue Jays had a payroll just a hair under 100 million (97.8 if you want to be exact).

Pop Quiz - Jays spent the most money in franchise history that year and finished in what place?

Answer: 4th place, with an 86 win season.

Any of this sound familiar?

Oh and just as an FYI - the Yankees finished 3rd and MISSED the playoffs in 2008, accounting for 89 wins with a payroll just over a whooping 209 million.

But yes... you need to spend to win :rolleyes:

phillipmike
02-02-2012, 10:55 AM
JP and the other GMS were given all the money they needed to succeed and they failed.

I must have missed those years, which ones were they? Average Payroll under this ownership is like 80M

What the team spends is not necessarily what the payroll is.

When JP asked for money, he was given it. To extend, Halladay, Rios, Wells - to sign Ryan, Burnett, Molina an trade for Glaus and Overbay. JP was given the green light to sign Gil Meche and Ted Lilly in the same off-season but they choose other teams.

Money spent does not equal success. For every Ramirez, Crawford and Beltre Boston had they had elite players DRAFTED in Elusbury, Pedriora, Bucholz, Lester, Papalbon. And they had the farm system to trade for Beckett, Lowell, Gonzalez.

Yankees: for every Sabathia, Teixeria, and Burnett they sign. They are signing them to the already DRAFTED players they have on their team in Mariano, Jeter, Cano, Posada. They used their farm system to add A-Rod, Pineda, Swisher, Granderson and others.

Many people think the Yankees and Red Sox are all about spending money on free agents. But forget that they have ELITE farm systems over the last few decades injecting young, elite talent to their team and moving that talent for other pieces.

They Jays were never at the point where they already had young cheap all-stars like the Red Sox and Yankees to go into free agency to make these signings and be contenders. Now the Jays are on the verge of doing that - but keep in mind that spending big money in FA does equal success and that it is a bigger risk then anything else in the league as JP learned before he was fired.

AA worked for JP and saw the huge mistakes he made. He knows what to do and he know where, when and how much money to spend.

Rogers has never let their fans down. Management has and finally we have the working equation of an great management staff and committed owners.

mtf
02-02-2012, 11:17 AM
I agree, you must have missed it.

In 2008 - the Blue Jays had 4 people under contract at 44 million.... Troy Glaus, Roy Hallady, BJ Ryan, & AJ Burnett. During the same year, the Blue Jays had a payroll just a hair under 100 million (97.8 if you want to be exact).

Pop Quiz - Jays spent the most money in franchise history that year and finished in what place?

Answer: 4th place, with an 86 win season.

Any of this sound familiar?

Oh and just as an FYI - the Yankees finished 3rd and MISSED the playoffs in 2008, accounting for 89 wins with a payroll just over a whooping 209 million.

But yes... you need to spend to win :rolleyes:

I hope we can keep this discussion respectful and mature this time, even if we still have different perspectives on this debate.

I think, or at least hope, we can all agree on a few basic facts such as:


Nothing can guarantee a championship.
It's good to develop a core of good players in your lineup.
It is possible to make the playoffs without being a big spender, however...
Acquiring top tier talent, which often have expensive price tags attached, will increase your chances of getting to the playoffs over unproven players.
Once you're through the first 162 games and into the playoffs, anyone can win in a short series.


I think the people who want the Blue Jays to show a willingness to spend, such as myself, don't want to see dollar bills thrown around recklessly (although this group is often accused of that very thing) but feel that #4 is important to increase your chances at making the playoffs.

There are examples of teams spending, and failing, like the one you listed. There are also a few examples of teams beating out the giant payrolls while fielding a team on a budget. However, these seem more like anomalies than the norm when the big spenders are doing so with some degree of intelligence.

I, for one, think Anthopoulos is a fantastic GM. I'm sure we could all agree on that. I also think that if he was given more money to work with, he could perhaps do even more to make this team into a perennial contender. It's very likely he could use that resource a lot more responsibly than JP Ricciardi did.

Do you disagree, or at least understand where we're coming from?

StayOnBoard
02-02-2012, 11:20 AM
What the team spends is not necessarily what the payroll is.

When JP asked for money, he was given it. To extend, Halladay, Rios, Wells - to sign Ryan, Burnett, Molina an trade for Glaus and Overbay. JP was given the green light to sign Gil Meche and Ted Lilly in the same off-season but they choose other teams.

Money spent does not equal success. For every Ramirez, Crawford and Beltre Boston had they had elite players DRAFTED in Elusbury, Pedriora, Bucholz, Lester, Papalbon. And they had the farm system to trade for Beckett, Lowell, Gonzalez.

Yankees: for every Sabathia, Teixeria, and Burnett they sign. They are signing them to the already DRAFTED players they have on their team in Mariano, Jeter, Cano, Posada. They used their farm system to add A-Rod, Pineda, Swisher, Granderson and others.

Many people think the Yankees and Red Sox are all about spending money on free agents. But forget that they have ELITE farm systems over the last few decades injecting young, elite talent to their team and moving that talent for other pieces.

They Jays were never at the point where they already had young cheap all-stars like the Red Sox and Yankees to go into free agency to make these signings and be contenders. Now the Jays are on the verge of doing that - but keep in mind that spending big money in FA does equal success and that it is a bigger risk then anything else in the league as JP learned before he was fired.

AA worked for JP and saw the huge mistakes he made. He knows what to do and he know where, when and how much money to spend.

Rogers has never let their fans down. Management has and finally we have the working equation of an great management staff and committed owners.

Great post ^ Couldn't have said it better myself.

Yankees get a lot of flack for spend, spend, spend... but apart from Teix and CC, almost everyone on their team is home grown or gathered via a smart trade.

Their first world series in the 2000's was almost all home grown talent - their "huge" free agent signings were Chuck Knoblauch and Tito Martinez, guys any team could have had. Everyone else was youth injected talent. Yes, NOW they have a huge payroll but it was mostly to keep their own players from hitting free agency. That is the advantage the yankees have over the rest but it all starts with having an elite farm system and building a solid foundation to build on.

T.O. Fan
02-02-2012, 11:29 AM
I hope we can keep this discussion respectful and mature this time, even if we still have different perspectives on this debate.

I think, or at least hope, we can all agree on a few basic facts such as:


Nothing can guarantee a championship.
It's good to develop a core of good players in your lineup.
It is possible to make the playoffs without being a big spender, however...
Acquiring top tier talent, which often have expensive price tags attached, will increase your chances of getting to the playoffs over unproven players.
Once you're through the first 162 games and into the playoffs, anyone can win in a short series.


I think the people who want the Blue Jays to show a willingness to spend, such as myself, don't want to see dollar bills thrown around recklessly (although this group is often accused of that very thing) but feel that #4 is important to increase your chances at making the playoffs.

There are examples of teams spending, and failing, like the one you listed. There are also a few examples of teams beating out the giant payrolls while fielding a team on a budget. However, these seem more like anomalies than the norm when the big spenders are doing so with some degree of intelligence.

I, for one, think Anthopoulos is a fantastic GM. I'm sure we could all agree on that. I also think that if he was given more money to work with, he could perhaps do even more to make this team into a perennial contender. It's very likely he could use that resource a lot more responsibly than JP Ricciardi did.

Do you disagree, or at least understand where we're coming from?

I agree with practically everything in this post.........as long as we agree that #4 doesn't necessarily have to come via free agency and that building a top farm system can assist with acquiring such talent via trade.

Also, as far as not spending recklessly is concerned there are some posters on here who do feel the Jays should throw money at what they deem to be top talent even though they are clearly past their peak years or are over rated.

I think it's important that the Jays don't do that because regardless of who owns the team there will be a budget and having guys who are vastly overpaid at some point is going to hinder the teams chances of winning on a consistent basis.

mtf
02-02-2012, 12:40 PM
I agree with practically everything in this post.........as long as we agree that #4 doesn't necessarily have to come via free agency and that building a top farm system can assist with acquiring such talent via trade.

Yeah, I agree with you. I was careful to phrase that part as 'acquire top tier talent' rather than specify free agency or trade, as I think either is a viable option if there's an opportunity that presents itself.

Sanyo
02-02-2012, 01:53 PM
Some people just live in a dream world which is why their own financial situation is probably in a mess (debt, debt, debt) -- dont know how to handle or take care of money. Rogers is a big corporation but it too has budgets like any individual person and it has other businesses it needs to spend money on -- upgrading wireless networks is NOT CHEAP! It costs tons of money!

Rogers has also spent big money in the past only to have nothing to show for it. Like others have said its best to build from within and then go out and acquire pieces to fix holes. There's a limit to everything, also I for one am glad I am not going out and contributing my money to hacks like BJ Ryan and AJ Burnett -- not sure about you but my blood boiled whenever I spent money on the Jays back then knowing I was a sap and my money went to paying these overpaid morons. And Fielder will be one. Pujols will also be one. Jays aren't short-sighted and looking at one or two years like some of these other teams who will be saddled with bloated unmovable contracts, the Jays have a game plan and they'll be the ones laughing at these other teams in the end...mark this post if you must but the Jays will be the beast in a few years...

T.O. Fan
02-02-2012, 07:59 PM
Yeah, I agree with you. I was careful to phrase that part as 'acquire top tier talent' rather than specify free agency or trade, as I think either is a viable option if there's an opportunity that presents itself.

Good, now we're BFF's

phillipmike
02-02-2012, 11:34 PM
I agree with practically everything in this post.........as long as we agree that #4 doesn't necessarily have to come via free agency and that building a top farm system can assist with acquiring such talent via trade.

Also, as far as not spending recklessly is concerned there are some posters on here who do feel the Jays should throw money at what they deem to be top talent even though they are clearly past their peak years or are over rated.

I think it's important that the Jays don't do that because regardless of who owns the team there will be a budget and having guys who are vastly overpaid at some point is going to hinder the teams chances of winning on a consistent basis.

Good post.

The thing that gets me is that Jays fans are mad or appear to be upset because it appears that management did not make the moves to get players like Darvish and Fielder because ownership was not willing to spend.

The problem is; no where did AA, ownership, or ANYONE from the Jays organization say that they were after these players and were going to bid or attempt to acquire them. This was ALL the fans getting their own expectations up and the media getting their expectations up by printing this stuff to sell a story. Yet fans/people believe what they want to believe and believe people in the media (who are COMPLETELY outside of the organization) than the people working in it making the decisions.

THEN they still complain saying it is AA and the Jays' fault by not tempering expectations. Fans/the media believe they could have avoided this problem by the Jays coming out and telling the fans/media that they have no intentions to signing or acquiring these players to straighten things out - which fans/the media claim they are ok with. But when the Jays do not do that then fans and the media get upset for getting worked up by themselves and illegitimate sources (the media) and demand the Jays give them answers.

Look at what the Star's writer Griffin wrote.

1. The Jays are going to be linked to talks but it is all smoke. Nothing major will happen. (December - before the Winter Meetings)
2. Hears something about them winning the services for Darvish. He prints it right away without looking at his sources to be the "first". (After the bidding for Darvish)
3. When he is proven wrong and after the Rangers win Darvish's rights he completely tears into the Jays and demand them to come clean. (After the winner of the Darvish bid is made public)
4. Criticizes the Jays off-season, their ownership, the management and the players. (The State of the Franchise piece)

1. http://www.thestar.com/sports/baseball/mlb/bluejays/article/1096802--griffin-fielder-to-jays-talk-all-part-of-the-game

2. http://www.thestar.com/sports/baseball/mlb/bluejays/article/1103027--blue-jays-made-highest-bid-for-yu-darvish-reports

THEN

3. http://www.thestar.com/article/1106132--griffin-jays-need-to-come-clean-on-darvish-bid

4. http://www.thestar.com/sports/baseball/mlb/bluejays/article/1123960--griffin-fans-still-buying-blue-jays-pitch-after-winter-of-disappointment

Bonus (non-Griffin related): http://www.lfpress.com/sports/baseball/2012/01/25/19294781.html

They (Griffin and others) use "reports" that obviously have no credibility but use it to sell a story. And after putting their own credibility on the line by using that source and being completely wrong; they push the onus (blame) on someone else (the Jays) to save their own *****. They know the Jays wont say anything because AA does not comment on players that are not on the Jays (the right way to do things) so the truth does not come out and makes the Jays look bad and reporters like Griffin get off the hook.

Like i said Jays fans and the media claim they would be ok if AA or someone from the Jays organization came out to temper expectations by stating whether or not they have interest. But does this make sense or is it even possible? If this was the case AA would have to come out to the media 3-4 times a day to explain a rumor whether credible or not to the media or fans. This is why AA does not comment on these type of things period! You do it once then they expect you to do it all the time and in reality it makes no sense and it is not possible. He will be wasting time on this that are not creditable and that is what JP got stuck into when he appeared on the Fan590 every Wednesday nights to talk with fans.

The media and fans expect AA to do what no other GM does in professional sports and expect management to temper the fans and the medias expectations as opposed to using their own common sense and believe something when you see it.

mtf
02-03-2012, 02:47 AM
Good, now we're BFF's

high 5

StealingSigns
02-03-2012, 02:51 AM
Great post ^ Couldn't have said it better myself.

Yankees get a lot of flack for spend, spend, spend... but apart from Teix and CC, almost everyone on their team is home grown or gathered via a smart trade.

Their first world series in the 2000's was almost all home grown talent - their "huge" free agent signings were Chuck Knoblauch and Tito Martinez, guys any team could have had. Everyone else was youth injected talent. Yes, NOW they have a huge payroll but it was mostly to keep their own players from hitting free agency. That is the advantage the yankees have over the rest but it all starts with having an elite farm system and building a solid foundation to build on.

There were a few other signings, most notably Mike Mussina at 6 years/88.5 million, which was nothing to sneeze at during that timeframe. I agree though, the Yankees definitely upped their game at developing their system during that era.

mtf
02-03-2012, 04:01 AM
There were a few other signings, most notably Mike Mussina at 6 years/88.5 million, which was nothing to sneeze at during that timeframe. I agree though, the Yankees definitely upped their game at developing their system during that era.

Well, also seizing the opportunity when trade opportunities for top tier, high paid players came up, such as Alex Rodriguez, Roger Clemens, Curtis Granderson, and several others. They never really gave away anyone of significance (at least at the time) relative to the star players they were getting back too. They're constantly in instant success mode, and it's worked much more often than not, for securing playoff births at the very least.

StealingSigns
02-03-2012, 04:36 AM
Well, also seizing the opportunity when trade opportunities for top tier, high paid players came up, such as Alex Rodriguez, Roger Clemens, Curtis Granderson, and several others. They never really gave away anyone of significance (at least at the time) relative to the star players they were getting back too. They're constantly in instant success mode, and it's worked much more often than not, for securing playoff births at the very least.

Umm, where are we in disagreement here?

mtf
02-03-2012, 06:25 AM
Umm, where are we in disagreement here?

I wasn't aware that we were supposed to be.

I was simply adding that it wasn't merely a few free agent signings in addition to their home grown talent, but also some trades which they gave away potential players for proven ones. They utilize all avenues available to them to acquire top end players with the goal of winning the division each and every season.

I'd kind of like to see the Blue Jays do that as well, rather than limit themselves with factors such as payrolls in the bottom third of the league, self-imposed rules like not taking on contracts with terms longer than 5 years, and policies of placing a value on a player and not being flexible on it when a team who wants the player just as much is willing to outbid them. These aren't complaints about Anthopoulos, but rather barriers I think that are put up by those above him in the organization which I feel tie his hands.

Nofear
02-03-2012, 06:46 AM
I agree, you must have missed it.

In 2008 - the Blue Jays had 4 people under contract at 44 million.... Troy Glaus, Roy Hallady, BJ Ryan, & AJ Burnett. During the same year, the Blue Jays had a payroll just a hair under 100 million (97.8 if you want to be exact).

Pop Quiz - Jays spent the most money in franchise history that year and finished in what place?

Answer: 4th place, with an 86 win season.

Any of this sound familiar?

Oh and just as an FYI - the Yankees finished 3rd and MISSED the playoffs in 2008, accounting for 89 wins with a payroll just over a whooping 209 million.

But yes... you need to spend to win :rolleyes:

Nice eye roll junior. You point out the Yankees one missed season and beat your chest like some hero but you leave out the fact that the Yankees made the playoffs 10 of 11 times since 2000 and won two WS makes you look like a fool. Seems pretty clear that spending sure they hell improves your chances at winning.

You want to make a point and a fair statement about not needing to spend money and I'm 100% going to back you all the way. The fact you make a sarcastic comment and an eye roll kids icon makes you look like a ***** and ruins your point. You gloss over the truth and follow it up with a weak *** eye roll and your some kind of hero?

Can't you make a strong case to change his view without the sarcasism? Makes me believe you can't or you would have done it.

One example = weak point

phillipmike
02-03-2012, 01:11 PM
Alright boys let's stay on topic.

Either i think the thread has been discussed to death with both sides having great points.

I think it might be a good idea to close this one.

es0terik
02-03-2012, 04:44 PM
What the team spends is not necessarily what the payroll is.

When JP asked for money, he was given it. To extend, Halladay, Rios, Wells - to sign Ryan, Burnett, Molina an trade for Glaus and Overbay. JP was given the green light to sign Gil Meche and Ted Lilly in the same off-season but they choose other teams.

Money spent does not equal success. For every Ramirez, Crawford and Beltre Boston had they had elite players DRAFTED in Elusbury, Pedriora, Bucholz, Lester, Papalbon. And they had the farm system to trade for Beckett, Lowell, Gonzalez.

Yankees: for every Sabathia, Teixeria, and Burnett they sign. They are signing them to the already DRAFTED players they have on their team in Mariano, Jeter, Cano, Posada. They used their farm system to add A-Rod, Pineda, Swisher, Granderson and others.

Many people think the Yankees and Red Sox are all about spending money on free agents. But forget that they have ELITE farm systems over the last few decades injecting young, elite talent to their team and moving that talent for other pieces.

They Jays were never at the point where they already had young cheap all-stars like the Red Sox and Yankees to go into free agency to make these signings and be contenders. Now the Jays are on the verge of doing that - but keep in mind that spending big money in FA does equal success and that it is a bigger risk then anything else in the league as JP learned before he was fired.

AA worked for JP and saw the huge mistakes he made. He knows what to do and he know where, when and how much money to spend.

Rogers has never let their fans down. Management has and finally we have the working equation of an great management staff and committed owners.
Didn't read 99% of this thread but all I can say is that this is an excellent post. I like this guy.