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View Full Version : Interesting look at Lebron's stats to start the year



daleja424
01-26-2012, 02:02 PM
I thought this was really interesting. If there is a better place for it feel free to move it mods.


I have a morning routine of scanning through various statistical leaderboards to stay on top of the trends across the league.

One thing struck me this morning:

The separation between LeBron James' production and the rest of the NBA.

LeBron ranks first in player efficiency rating (PER) and is head-and-shoulders above the competition, or at least those who have played more than five games (excludes Manu Ginobili).

In fact, the difference between LeBron James (33.5 PER) and second-place Kevin Durant (26.5 PER) is the roughly the same difference between Durant and Sundiata Gaines (19.4, 52nd place).

Sundiata Gaines!

There is a REALLY COOL figure posted at the end of the article as well:
http://espn.go.com/blog/truehoop/miamiheat/post/_/id/11907/lebrons-off-the-charts-start-in-a-chart


I highly reccomend you take a look.

Kashmir13579
01-26-2012, 02:05 PM
Lebron makes any team a contender.

gwrighter
01-26-2012, 02:05 PM
LBJ is a beast, that is no secret.

daleja424
01-26-2012, 02:11 PM
I just thought the graph was a pretty cool at how good has been to start the year.

nycericanguy
01-26-2012, 02:17 PM
head and shoulders above any other player, by far the best player in the NBA.

If MIA ever traded Wade for pieces they'd be much better, but I don't think they'd do it.

mjm07
01-26-2012, 02:24 PM
Brian Cardinal should move up by years end. There i said it!

-Kobe24-TJ19-
01-26-2012, 02:46 PM
lebron does everything on the court, thats why his stats are so awesome.

best player on planet.

lakers4sho
01-26-2012, 02:50 PM
Uh...PER isn't a linear function so this entire thing is pointless.

daleja424
01-26-2012, 02:56 PM
Uh...PER isn't a linear function so this entire thing is pointless.

In what way? Which term in the expression for PER do you believe is raised to a power?

-Kobe24-TJ19-
01-26-2012, 02:57 PM
Uh...PER isn't a linear function so this entire thing is pointless.

its exponential?

thats why some of the guys have ridicilous PER...makes sense:clap:

lakers4sho
01-26-2012, 03:02 PM
Non exponentiation doesn't necessarily imply linear...if it depends on several variables it isn't linear, even if none of them are raised to a power.

ChicagoJ
01-26-2012, 03:32 PM
LeBron takes it upon himself to do a lot for his team. Some of his stats would be spread out across two or more players on most teams. Not taking away from what he is doing, just saying most players aren't out to do all those things themselves.

JordansBulls
01-26-2012, 03:42 PM
I liked the way the chart was set up as well, put things in perspective.

wmudford
01-26-2012, 03:47 PM
Anyone who thinks PER isn't a good measurement for talent is foolish.

naps
01-26-2012, 03:57 PM
LeBron takes it upon himself to do a lot for his team. Some of his stats would be spread out across two or more players on most teams. Not taking away from what he is doing, just saying most players aren't out to do all those things themselves.

Well, most players don't have the ability to do it all by themselves. If anything LeBron shouldn't be able to the things he's doing since he has two other ELITE teammates. It just goes to show he is not paralleled by any in terms of supreme dominance.

KB-Pau-DH2012
01-26-2012, 04:03 PM
LeBron is the best statistical guy in the NBA today. But it's a shame that majority of the greatness talk we have of LBJ stems from his stats during the regular season. We saw great stats in his last 2 yrs in Cleveland, earning him top league MVP honors both years.

We can talk about PER and win shares etc. etc. etc.

But now, the man has got to have that translate that into wins in the postseason. Simple as that.


But he's still a great player, just wouldn't call him hands down best player in the league when he lacks the intangibles and know it hows of closing games and series in the playoffs.

Gibby
01-26-2012, 04:04 PM
lol at Jamaal Magloire.

-Kobe24-TJ19-
01-26-2012, 04:17 PM
Anyone who thinks PER isn't a good measurement for talent is foolish.

lol

mRc08
01-26-2012, 04:23 PM
lebron is a beast. While I love hating the heat (and when i say hate i mean i love the competition they give my bulls, rivalries are great), the man is incredible. Best athlete in the world imo, next to dwight.

Lim
01-26-2012, 04:36 PM
LeBron is the best statistical guy in the NBA today. But it's a shame that majority of the greatness talk we have of LBJ stems from his stats during the regular season. We saw great stats in his last 2 yrs in Cleveland, earning him top league MVP honors both years.

We can talk about PER and win shares etc. etc. etc.

But now, the man has got to have that translate that into wins in the postseason. Simple as that.


But he's still a great player, just wouldn't call him hands down best player in the league when he lacks the intangibles and know it hows of closing games and series in the playoffs.

lebrons stats in the playoffs are ridiculous too, wtf are you saying?

KB-Pau-DH2012
01-26-2012, 04:36 PM
lebrons stats in the playoffs are ridiculous too, wtf are you saying?

But do they translate into wins when it matters most?

Hawkeye15
01-26-2012, 04:40 PM
LeBron is the best statistical guy in the NBA today. But it's a shame that majority of the greatness talk we have of LBJ stems from his stats during the regular season. We saw great stats in his last 2 yrs in Cleveland, earning him top league MVP honors both years.

We can talk about PER and win shares etc. etc. etc.

But now, the man has got to have that translate that into wins in the postseason. Simple as that.


But he's still a great player, just wouldn't call him hands down best player in the league when he lacks the intangibles and know it hows of closing games and series in the playoffs.

His stats in the playoffs are ridiculous as well. Now that he finally has a legit supporting cast along with him, any criticism for him not winning rings is far more legit than it used to be.

Slug3
01-26-2012, 04:47 PM
Good thing we didnt resign Jamal Maglorie.

bucketss
01-26-2012, 05:01 PM
But do they translate into wins when it matters most?

well you did kind of say he statistical dominance was only in the regualr season.

Lim
01-26-2012, 05:13 PM
But do they translate into wins when it matters most?

i don't know we shall see this year, he played bad last year in the finals but to say he isn't hands down the best player in the league right now is rather delusional. let me guess you still think its kobe?

also ring argument is rather silly considering its a team game and robert horry has more rings than kobe, is robert horry better than kobe?

KB-Pau-DH2012
01-26-2012, 05:16 PM
well you did kind of say he statistical dominance was only in the regualr season.

I admit, my mistake.

KB-Pau-DH2012
01-26-2012, 05:18 PM
i don't know we shall see this year, he played bad last year in the finals but to say he isn't hands down the best player in the league right now is rather delusional. let me guess you still think its kobe?

also ring argument is rather silly considering its a team game and robert horry has more rings than kobe, is robert horry better than kobe?

Yes, I would go as far as saying that Robert Horry is better than Kobe Bryant. Not due to the rings argument though, but for the simple fact that Shaq said in his book that Kobe wanted to become the Will Smith of the NBA, but there's no player closer to Will Smith in looks, sexiness and style than Robert Horry.

Gritz
01-26-2012, 05:19 PM
PER is probably 75 if you count just the first 3 quarters

Lim
01-26-2012, 05:28 PM
Yes, I would go as far as saying that Robert Horry is better than Kobe Bryant. Not due to the rings argument though, but for the simple fact that Shaq said in his book that Kobe wanted to become the Will Smith of the NBA, but there's no player closer to Will Smith in looks, sexiness and style than Robert Horry.

whats the point of trolling if its obvious?

Chronz
01-26-2012, 06:51 PM
As JB has noted, the lack of imposing competition is boosting his PER more than any other year. Hes played better than last year though, which is all that really matters when you consider how much hes improved in other (non statistical) aspects.

Vinylman
01-26-2012, 07:12 PM
:yawn:

Stats are boring ... winning is all that matters...

The Lord of no rings will get props from me when he wins a chip until then

:yawn:

Sactown
01-26-2012, 07:28 PM
:yawn:

Stats are boring ... winning is all that matters...

The Lord of no rings will get props from me when he wins a chip until then

:yawn:

I hate the Rings argument... It takes more than just one dominate player to win rings. It takes a great well balanced team with great chemistry to win championships.

Vinylman
01-26-2012, 07:38 PM
I hate the Rings argument... It takes more than just one dominate player to win rings. It takes a great well balanced team with great chemistry to win championships.

Hate it all you want... its what people will be talking about when you are long gone from the NBA...

I'd rather have DRose than Lebroom anyway... He has the mentality of a winner whereas Lebroom just runs his mouth...

In reality that Miami team last year had more talent than Dallas... they just CHOKED!

Lim
01-26-2012, 09:45 PM
meh rings are so overrated, this isnt golf.. in a TEAM sport ones greatness should be measured by individual talent.

http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/b/bryanko01.html

http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/j/jamesle01.html

compare and contrast.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NJYoGV38c1Y&feature=youtu.be

http://blitzsportsnetwork.com/2011/10/lebron-james-is-a-choker/

educate yourself ppl

ManRam
01-26-2012, 10:44 PM
PER is a stupid stat because it doesn't say my favorite player is as good as I think he is!

Evolution23
01-26-2012, 10:54 PM
All I know is If lebron doesn't mind this year, it will be the biggest failure in sports history.

ManRam
01-26-2012, 10:57 PM
Yeah, rings get overblown by fans of teams/players who have them. It takes a team to win...not one player.

But, on point, and to be serious, this is a really cool tidbit here. That's nothing short of remarkable. He really has been that much better than everyone else in the league...

NBAfan4life
01-26-2012, 11:09 PM
Yeah, rings get overblown by fans of teams/players who have them. It takes a team to win...not one player.

But, on point, and to be serious, this is a really cool tidbit here. That's nothing short of remarkable. He really has been that much better than everyone else in the league...

Rings do get overblown. He has got to win one though. He has had the best record in the league a few times. HC advantage. This year though if his team is healthy and doesn't produce a championship he will deserve some criticism more so than any other year.

ugafan
01-26-2012, 11:10 PM
Let's be honest, even if the Heat win this year, it'll get discounted because of the shortened season. Anybody else wins and that's not even an issue.

justinnum1
01-26-2012, 11:13 PM
Let's be honest, even if the Heat win this year, it'll get discounted because of the shortened season. Anybody else wins and that's not even an issue.

If anything this season will be harder than others...

ManRam
01-26-2012, 11:15 PM
Rings do get overblown. He has got to win one though. He has had the best record in the league a few times. HC advantage. This year though if his team is healthy and doesn't produce a championship he will deserve some criticism more so than any other year.

Oh. For sure. I don't disagree with that.

I disagree with logic like "player A has 5 rings and player B has 3 rings so therefore player A is better". There are far more important factors that play into individual comparisons.

And a PER that is that much higher than the #2 is one of those things. Unreal.

NBAfan4life
01-26-2012, 11:27 PM
Oh. For sure. I don't disagree with that.

I disagree with logic like "player A has 5 rings and player B has 3 rings so therefore player A is better". There are far more important factors that play into individual comparisons.

And a PER that is that much higher than the #2 is one of those things. Unreal.

I totally agree. While I don't cheer for Lebron it is hard for anyone to say with a straight face that he is not the clear cut best player on the planet right now. He puts up those numbers effortless.

The post season will be interesting.

CudiOnMyiPod
01-26-2012, 11:31 PM
His talent has never been in question. He is arguably the most talented player ever (not best). It's his ability to win big games when it matters that is in question and he has not proven anything at all when it comes to that. As of now there are probably 20-30 players I would take in the 4th quarter if it was tied. If I am starting a franchise, I take LeBron and anyone who wouldn't would be foolish.

setman2000
01-26-2012, 11:32 PM
Nuggets DeMare Carroll PER.....33.55!!! Suck it Lebron!

KingPosey
01-26-2012, 11:39 PM
It seems pretty flawed if my guy Jimmer isnt AT LEAST #1, possibly #.5


Close this stupid, ********, lying ****ing ****** *** dumb as **** ****** **** *** dickwad thread.

Raps08-09 Champ
01-26-2012, 11:40 PM
Jamal Magloire. :win:

KingPosey
01-26-2012, 11:42 PM
If anything this season will be harder than others...

Why? You have 2 top 5 or so players, another all star that play lots of minutes han 8and a short bench. How is 66 games not going to keep them fresher than 82 games?

ne3xchamps
01-26-2012, 11:58 PM
Another lebron thread.... yay! :rolleyes:

Teeboy1487
01-27-2012, 12:10 AM
His stats have always been incredible and he is unquestionably the best player in the league bar none. However, it has to translate into rings. Players of Lebron's caliber are ultimately judged by the success they have in the playoffs.

The ring argument is definitely legit. I'm not saying you are only as good as your rings. No, that's stupid logic. However it's the knock on Lebron right now. He has had played on multiple contenders (the supporting cast argument is totally bogus), but he still has not lead his team to a championship.

Until he proves it to us he can win one, I will continue to question his ability to lead a team to a championship win despite being the best player in the league.

mngopher35
01-27-2012, 12:18 AM
Other than last year how is the supporting cast argument bogus? Are you really saying those cavs teams he was on minus Lebron are as good as the lakers teams minus kobe? Id have to strongly disagree...

Teeboy1487
01-27-2012, 12:31 AM
Other than last year how is the supporting cast argument bogus? Are you really saying those cavs teams he was on minus Lebron are as good as the lakers teams minus kobe? Id have to strongly disagree...

Those Cavs team won 60 games for a reason and two years with the best record in the league. They were top defensive teams in those years and had shooters that complemented Lebron's game perfectly. They were contenders. They simply choked. Last year, the Heat had three top 12 players and two of those players (Lebron and Wade) were top 3 and they still did not win. There are no excuses whatsoever. Lebron had decent supporting casts in the Cavs years in that two year stretch. Until he wins a championship, I will question him.

Shlumpledink
01-27-2012, 12:38 AM
Whatever, Lebron is great. Everyone knows that. But lets not try to turn basketball into the baseball. Box scores don't tell the story of a game. weighted statistics don't tell the story of a game. They're just neat to look at when you can't watch the games. Thats all they're for.

Bishnoff
01-27-2012, 12:46 AM
Well, most players don't have the ability to do it all by themselves. If anything LeBron shouldn't be able to the things he's doing since he has two other ELITE teammates. It just goes to show he is not paralleled by any in terms of supreme dominance.

This.

amos1er
01-27-2012, 12:52 AM
I wonder what his PER is in the fourth quarter in games that matter?

amos1er
01-27-2012, 12:56 AM
Anyone who thinks PER isn't a good measurement for talent is foolish.

Nice ad hominem argument there buddy. Way to give expert analysis that really puts things into perspective. You sure owned everyone on this thread that gave linear and exponential facts.

giants73756
01-27-2012, 12:57 AM
If anything this season will be harder than others...
It's tough on every team. They are all going through the same tiring schedule so it's not harder this year.

The ring argument is obviously stupid. You all know he was on the horrendous Cavs for all but one year. He will definitely win a ring sometime soon. (If they trade Wade away they might win it every year.) He's obviously the best player in the NBA. The ring argument is the only thing you haters can cling onto.

amos1er
01-27-2012, 01:06 AM
Well, most players don't have the ability to do it all by themselves. If anything LeBron shouldn't be able to the things he's doing since he has two other ELITE teammates. It just goes to show he is not paralleled by any in terms of supreme dominance.

When it wins him a ring I'll take it more seriously. Just because he hogs stats, it doesn't ensure his team a better chance of winning. Who cares about stats, when you can't get the job done and close out games of significance.

FYI, Lebron doing everything on his team just takes away stats from other players that would otherwise be getting those stats for the team anyways. Every player that Lebron plays with takes a significant reduction in their stats. Wade went down in ppg and assists, Bosh went down in ppg, rebounds and assists, Mo Williams went down in assists and ppg, and Big Z went down in rebounds. When you take away from what your teammates are good at, it decreases moral throughout the team and when 4th quarter time comes around, they are not warmed up enough to get the job done and Lebron is more tired that he should be because he didn't allow his teammates to do some of the heavy lifting by taking too much upon himself in a selfish effort to pad his stats.

amos1er
01-27-2012, 01:08 AM
It's tough on every team. They are all going through the same tiring schedule so it's not harder this year.

The ring argument is obviously stupid. You all know he was on the horrendous Cavs for all but one year. He will definitely win a ring sometime soon. (If they trade Wade away they might win it every year.) He's obviously the best player in the NBA. The ring argument is the only thing you haters can cling onto.

If he truly was the best player in the NBA, he would have been able to claim a one seed in the weak east last season, or would be a 1 seed this year. He has more than enough around him to be a one seed in the east. Rose has less help and has a much better record in the same conference. Rose knows that winning games is more important than padding stats.

TO Rapz
01-27-2012, 01:19 AM
Jamaal Magloire's negative PER makes me optimistic about my Raptors future.

Lim
01-27-2012, 01:28 AM
All I know is If lebron doesn't mind this year, it will be the biggest failure in sports history.

not really. lebron has had nothing but bums for his supporting cast up until last year. he has only had 1 good supporting cast for 1 1/2 years. If he doesn't win this year it will be bad, but not biggest failure ever, not even close imo.

i think ppl forget kobe and shaq played together for 8 years and only won 3 times. thats not even that good considering they are both top 10 players of all time.

mngopher35
01-27-2012, 02:55 AM
Those Cavs team won 60 games for a reason and two years with the best record in the league. They were top defensive teams in those years and had shooters that complemented Lebron's game perfectly. They were contenders. They simply choked. Last year, the Heat had three top 12 players and two of those players (Lebron and Wade) were top 3 and they still did not win. There are no excuses whatsoever. Lebron had decent supporting casts in the Cavs years in that two year stretch. Until he wins a championship, I will question him.

Yes they won 60 games for a reason, they had Lebron. Without james look at the team last year, second to last in the league. That is not a good supporting cast at all, not if the goal is a championship. One player cannot beat a playoff defense on his own and james had no help in clevland. Lets compare the top 5 players surrounding kobe the past few years and lebron (I use lakers because they come to mind as a team with a star and supporting cast)

Williams vs fisher
Parker vs Artest/Ariza
Jamison vs pau
Varejao vs bynum
Hickson vs odom

I would say that the right side looks like solid support and the left side looks like scrubs (remember jamison is aging by this point). The only position where cavs are better is pg. Blame him all you want for not winning last year, but lets be realistic about the talent around him in clevland. Lebron played horrible in the finals and he needs to win a ring with the Heat. If he doesnt then I agree with people that it will and should hurt his status as one of the greats.

Chronz
01-27-2012, 01:46 PM
Those Cavs team won 60 games for a reason and two years with the best record in the league. They were top defensive teams in those years and had shooters that complemented Lebron's game perfectly. They were contenders. They simply choked. Last year, the Heat had three top 12 players and two of those players (Lebron and Wade) were top 3 and they still did not win. There are no excuses whatsoever. Lebron had decent supporting casts in the Cavs years in that two year stretch. Until he wins a championship, I will question him.

Decent doesnt equate to championship caliber. Those shooters that complimented him stop hitting shots in the playoffs remember.

TheIlladelph16
01-27-2012, 02:34 PM
His stats have always been incredible and he is unquestionably the best player in the league bar none. However, it has to translate into rings. Players of Lebron's caliber are ultimately judged by the success they have in the playoffs.

The ring argument is definitely legit. I'm not saying you are only as good as your rings. No, that's stupid logic. However it's the knock on Lebron right now. He has had played on multiple contenders (the supporting cast argument is totally bogus), but he still has not lead his team to a championship.

Until he proves it to us he can win one, I will continue to question his ability to lead a team to a championship win despite being the best player in the league.

Last year aside, which one of his garbage supporting casts in Cleveland was supposed to actually help him beat a team like the Lakers? His best players ever there were Mo Williams and Antwan Jamison for half of a season..... Shaq maybe? Anderson Varejao? Big Z? Booby Gibson?

naps
01-27-2012, 02:48 PM
When it wins him a ring I'll take it more seriously. Just because he hogs stats, it doesn't ensure his team a better chance of winning. Who cares about stats, when you can't get the job done and close out games of significance.

FYI, Lebron doing everything on his team just takes away stats from other players that would otherwise be getting those stats for the team anyways. Every player that Lebron plays with takes a significant reduction in their stats. Wade went down in ppg and assists, Bosh went down in ppg, rebounds and assists, Mo Williams went down in assists and ppg, and Big Z went down in rebounds. When you take away from what your teammates are good at, it decreases moral throughout the team and when 4th quarter time comes around, they are not warmed up enough to get the job done and Lebron is more tired that he should be because he didn't allow his teammates to do some of the heavy lifting by taking too much upon himself in a selfish effort to pad his stats.

Anything Kobephiles say personally carries no weight to me. Your sig says it all. You dedicate your PSD time on LeBron hating more than the Lakers or Kobe. LeBron James is the greatest basketball player on this planet. How ironic a Kobephile talks about hogging the ball when Kobe himself is one of the greatest ballhogs this game has ever seen.

naps
01-27-2012, 02:51 PM
PER is a stupid stat because it doesn't say my favorite player is as good as I think he is!

Haha..Exactly. You can take 30+ shots a game because you have X number of rings so you earned it.

Lakersfan2483
01-27-2012, 03:33 PM
He's the best "regular season" player in the NBA and compiles all world stats. None of that matters if he doesn't deliver on the biggest stage when comparing him to the all time greats.

*If he doesn't deliver he will end up being another Karl Malone, Patrick Ewing or Charles Barkley. All of them have incredible numbers and achieved a lot but failed to win when it mattered.

AIRMAR72
01-27-2012, 03:40 PM
Its nothing new bron stats are always part of his highlights since he been in league

Lakersfan2483
01-27-2012, 03:40 PM
Those Cavs team won 60 games for a reason and two years with the best record in the league. They were top defensive teams in those years and had shooters that complemented Lebron's game perfectly. They were contenders. They simply choked. Last year, the Heat had three top 12 players and two of those players (Lebron and Wade) were top 3 and they still did not win. There are no excuses whatsoever. Lebron had decent supporting casts in the Cavs years in that two year stretch. Until he wins a championship, I will question him.

Well said. The Lebron apologists will make excuses though. Just like they made excuses for his perfomance last year despite having arguably the best talent on his team in the NBA. Wade is a top 5 player and Bosh is one of the best bigs in the game. They also had a solid bench and guys that understood their roles and stepped up, i.e. Chalmers, Miller, Haslem, etc. Lebron failed to deliver, simple as that. As the main man, you have to deliver when you have that type of support or people will question you. Every great player has had to face the same scrutiny. To much is given, much is expected.

KeeptheFaith22
01-27-2012, 04:00 PM
That is really cool I am glad that you found this out

amos1er
01-27-2012, 07:09 PM
Anything Kobephiles say personally carries no weight to me. Your sig says it all. You dedicate your PSD time on LeBron hating more than the Lakers or Kobe. LeBron James is the greatest basketball player on this planet. How ironic a Kobephile talks about hogging the ball when Kobe himself is one of the greatest ballhogs this game has ever seen.

Basketball and sports are about winning. Lebron can't get the job done. I'll agree and say that from a statistical stand point, he is the best in the NBA for sure. He is a fantasy basketball phenom, but who really gives a **** if he can't get the job done and win a championship. Until he does, he is just another Dan Marino, Charles Barkley, or Carl Malone. Lebron cannot close out big games, and that is the most important thing in being an all-time great. He is good at keeping his ppg, rpg, and assists levels high, but when its all on the line, he just can't get the job done. If I had to pick one player to lead my championship roster to a title, I wouldn't even have him in the top five of NBA players to lead a team to a title. I would put Kobe, Carmelo, Wade, Dirk, Durant, Rose, and Howard over him. However, if it came to who I wanted to lead my fantasy basketball team....I would chose James 1st without hesitation.

Method28
01-27-2012, 07:25 PM
I wonder what his PER is in the fourth quarter in games that matter?

Ok so how about our teams play....my team will outscore ur team 40-10 in the first quarter....we can play equal for the 2nd and 3rd quarter and ur team can out score my team by 25 in the 4th.

Does ur team win since the fourth matters most?

I couldve sworn all four quarters play out equally