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View Full Version : Why do people say Kobe rode Shaq's coattail?



Longhornfan1234
01-23-2012, 06:02 PM
The three teams the Lakers played in the Finals with Shaq had very little in the way of a center, so of course Shaq absolutely dominated those three teams. The real test in those three championships came from the Spurs in the conference finals. For at least two of those three years, Kobe absolutely abused the Spurs and even Spurs fans will have to admit that. It was during the 2nd championship run after Kobe almost single-handedly crushed the Spurs that Shaq, the Big Ego himself, proclaimed Kobe the best player in the world. The Finals those three years were simply a formality...everyone knew whoever won between the Lakers and Spurs would be champion.

-Kobe24-TJ19-
01-23-2012, 06:09 PM
Kobe couldn't win with Shaq, Shaq couldn't win without Kobe.

:sigh:

ManRam
01-23-2012, 06:10 PM
I don't think many say he "rode his coattails" I think most just point out that Shaq was clearly the best player on that team those years...

-Kobe24-TJ19-
01-23-2012, 06:17 PM
I don't think many say he "rode his coattails" I think most just point out that Shaq was clearly the best player on that team those years...

dont go too far:no:

ManRam
01-23-2012, 06:19 PM
dont go too far:no:

Well, he was the better player each of those three years...so I think it's clear. It might have been very close later on and closer to 2000...but it's still clear.

airforceones25
01-23-2012, 06:24 PM
It was very clear.. Shaq in his prime.. Unstoppable

JordansBulls
01-23-2012, 06:32 PM
It is mainly because posters tried to use that Kobe had 3 rings at a certain age to justify his ranking over all time greats when Shaq was the best player on the team and won all the league and finals mvp's on the team, so some just used that logic for Kobe.

setman2000
01-23-2012, 06:34 PM
People don't say that - another stupid thread.

Raph12
01-23-2012, 06:38 PM
2000 Finals:
Shaq 38ppg on 61FG%
Kobe 15.5ppg on 37FG%

2001 Finals:
Shaq 33ppg on 57FG%
Kobe 24.5ppg on 42FG%

2002 Finals:
Shaq 36ppg on 60FG%
Kobe 26.5ppg on 51FG%

It's clear who the #1 option is on all of these teams, Shaq dominated each and every Finals series, showing why he was deserving of the Finals MVP award.

GrapeSoda
01-23-2012, 06:40 PM
2000 Finals:
Shaq 38ppg on 61FG%
Kobe 15.5ppg on 37FG%

2001 Finals:
Shaq 33ppg on 57FG%
Kobe 24.5ppg on 42FG%

2002 Finals:
Shaq 36ppg on 60FG%
Kobe 26.5ppg on 51FG%

It's clear who the #1 option is on all of these teams, Shaq dominated each and every Finals series, showing why he was deserving of the Finals MVP award.

:mad: i just looked up these stats and was about to post them haha, but yea its pretty clear Shaq > Kobe in those finals

bigsams50
01-23-2012, 06:44 PM
2000 Finals:
Shaq 38ppg on 61FG%
Kobe 15.5ppg on 37FG%

2001 Finals:
Shaq 33ppg on 57FG%
Kobe 24.5ppg on 42FG%

2002 Finals:
Shaq 36ppg on 60FG%
Kobe 26.5ppg on 51FG%

It's clear who the #1 option is on all of these teams, Shaq dominated each and every Finals series, showing why he was deserving of the Finals MVP award.
I think this post says it all

WeBallin
01-23-2012, 06:52 PM
Ummm cause its true, Shaq had him a ring with out Kobe

ghettosean
01-23-2012, 07:09 PM
2000 Finals:
Shaq 38ppg on 61FG%
Kobe 15.5ppg on 37FG%

2001 Finals:
Shaq 33ppg on 57FG%
Kobe 24.5ppg on 42FG%

2002 Finals:
Shaq 36ppg on 60FG%
Kobe 26.5ppg on 51FG%

It's clear who the #1 option is on all of these teams, Shaq dominated each and every Finals series, showing why he was deserving of the Finals MVP award.
OMG I love you for posting that and your signature ;)

Nick O
01-23-2012, 07:15 PM
probably because for a couple years he was behind maybe only Wilt he was the most unstoppable player of all time... but really i dont see it... i saw them as equally big parts of their titles

beasted86
01-23-2012, 07:23 PM
it was very clear.. Shaq in his prime.. Unstoppable

+1

KobemvpBryant24
01-23-2012, 07:27 PM
Cuz they only look at the finals performances and not the whole playoffs which in 2001 Kobe was the better player in the playoffs and in 02 it was really close

Kashmir13579
01-23-2012, 07:28 PM
The three teams the Lakers played in the Finals with Shaq had very little in the way of a center
Was there a center in the NBA at the time that could keep Shaq from dominating? Was the ever a center in NBA history that could slow him down?

dont go too far:no:

really?

KB-Pau-DH2012
01-23-2012, 07:31 PM
2000 Finals:
Shaq 38ppg on 61FG%
Kobe 15.5ppg on 37FG%

2001 Finals:
Shaq 33ppg on 57FG%
Kobe 24.5ppg on 42FG%

2002 Finals:
Shaq 36ppg on 60FG%
Kobe 26.5ppg on 51FG%

It's clear who the #1 option is on all of these teams, Shaq dominated each and every Finals series, showing why he was deserving of the Finals MVP award.

What about the 1st rd, 2nd rd, and 3rd rd?

And don't forget, game 4 @ Indiana, Shaq fouls out.....who ya gonna call??

Thegame187
01-23-2012, 07:32 PM
I thought it was MVP of the finals, not the playoffs

I may be wrong, but i doubt it

llemon
01-23-2012, 07:33 PM
A) Because they can say whatever they want to

B) Three Finals MVPs for Shaq.

Bishnoff
01-23-2012, 07:33 PM
Because some poeple don't like Kobe and/or don't like the Lakers.

Kobe deserved all his rings.

MTar786
01-23-2012, 07:36 PM
I think this post says it all

i would generally agree. but you have to understand that the REAL nba finals in those days was the western conference finals. so post the 2000, 2001 and 2002 wcf stats and lets see. im not saying shaq wasnt better. because he was better. its just that kobe played a huge role too. IMO shaq was 65% the reason we won in 2000, 55% in 01 and 50% in 02.

PhillyFaninLA
01-23-2012, 07:40 PM
I don't hear rode coattails except in this post and by the TC.

What I agree with and have heard by many others is "Shaq's Team". Kobe was the number 2 on those teams, he didn't ride coattails but it was Shaq's Team and not Kobe's.

LakersSaintsLSU
01-23-2012, 07:40 PM
Ummm cause its true, Shaq had him a ring with out Kobe

:facepalm: He didnt do $hyt with miami in the finals did u not watch? he road dwades coat tail ZO did much better...stop lying to yourself kobe hater and kobe got 2 without him

Snapshot
01-23-2012, 07:49 PM
Well it's true, Kobe was interchangeable at that point in time, Shaq wasn't. Numerous players could've fill Kobe's spot and the outcome would be the same. Ray Allen, T Mac, VC, and even AI, playing alongside Shaq during those years would've won those titles.. however, I don't see Kobe winning a chip without Shaq those years..

rockbottom2010
01-23-2012, 07:50 PM
who won the nba finals mvps during their 3-peat.....not other than shaq did

rockbottom2010
01-23-2012, 07:51 PM
2000 Finals:
Shaq 38ppg on 61FG%
Kobe 15.5ppg on 37FG%

2001 Finals:
Shaq 33ppg on 57FG%
Kobe 24.5ppg on 42FG%

2002 Finals:
Shaq 36ppg on 60FG%
Kobe 26.5ppg on 51FG%

It's clear who the #1 option is on all of these teams, Shaq dominated each and every Finals series, showing why he was deserving of the Finals MVP award.

stats don't lie

seikou8
01-23-2012, 08:11 PM
:facepalm: He didnt do $hyt with miami in the finals did u not watch? he road dwades coat tail ZO did much better...stop lying to yourself kobe hater and kobe got 2 without him

it took 7 years for him to do it and for him to demand a trade

Federal Reserve
01-23-2012, 08:21 PM
Look at how Wade played with Shaq on the Heat; you could tell that Wade was the clear leader of that team. When Shaq was with Kobe, the offense ran through Shaq and it was very transparent. Kobe was a second option who thrived from having the best center in the league, at that time. Look at how well Kobe plays when he has a good center bailing him out (i.e Shaq, Bynum/Gasol).

llemon
01-23-2012, 08:21 PM
stats don't lie

Stats lie, dance, and go spearfishing.

Hawkeye15
01-23-2012, 08:32 PM
I don't think many say he "rode his coattails" I think most just point out that Shaq was clearly the best player on that team those years...

bingo

Hawkeye15
01-23-2012, 08:35 PM
2000 Finals:
Shaq 38ppg on 61FG%
Kobe 15.5ppg on 37FG%

2001 Finals:
Shaq 33ppg on 57FG%
Kobe 24.5ppg on 42FG%

2002 Finals:
Shaq 36ppg on 60FG%
Kobe 26.5ppg on 51FG%

It's clear who the #1 option is on all of these teams, Shaq dominated each and every Finals series, showing why he was deserving of the Finals MVP award.

It goes further though. Did teams change their entire defensive scheme when Shaq from 1996-2004 played? Hell yes they did. They focused completely on limiting the damage he could do, stacking his side of the floor, and doing anything possible not to get crushed by him. Shaq's being the #1 guy goes even beyond stats. Its how teams approached those Lakers. Kobe was for sure, and not even close, a distant 2nd when planning to play the Lakers those 3 title runs.

I don't think Shaq would have won with that team had you replaced Kobe with more than maybe 2-3 guys, but the fact is, as great as Kobe was in 2 of those 3 runs, he was second banana. A pretty freakin awesome second banana, but one none the less.

3RDASYSTEM
01-23-2012, 08:52 PM
HAWKEYE15 should copyright that statement above and copy/paste it everywhere so all the KB fanatics who start watching him when he started winning his scoring titles have no clue how he developed to the player he was, he wasnt on SHAQ's level when he first entered the league like AI was...trust me if he was they would have mopped SPURS/JAZZ those yrs they got swept by those squads, but that KB guy was developing into a good player and by the time 2000 rolled by he had finally arrived and still managed 15.5ppg in first FINALS after someone mentioned he saved them in game 4 after SHAQ fouled out...key words 'SHAQ fouled out'' so aint the 2nd option supposed to rise to occassion?

but like HAWKEYE said they use to basically triple team SHAQ before the ball would cross half court line, that destroys the hell out of your team D and KB had 1 on 1's all game/season long cause of SHAQ, SHAQ had DUNCAN/ROBINSON doubling him so why you think KB attacked the lane and destroyed the SPURS? and also why did FISHER get all those wide open looks against SPURS ....i sware he missed llike 2-3 threes the whole series he was so on fire cause of SHAQs attention, not KB...SHAQ DIESEL

Tony_Starks
01-23-2012, 10:07 PM
Because people choose to conveniently forget that Shaq would come to camp out of shape and get healthy on "company time." Meanwhile Kobe would carry the team, and defend the next teams best player while Shaq got in shape at his leisure. He dominated once in shape, don't get it twisted, but he still slacked off increasingly more and more as the years went by.

Fact: one of Kobe's longest scoring splurges when he went for 40 for like 6 or 7 games straight was while Shaq was still on the team chillin like a villain....

Evolution23
01-23-2012, 10:13 PM
Because people choose to conveniently forget that Shaq would come to camp out of shape and get healthy on "company time." Meanwhile Kobe would carry the team, and defend the next teams best player while Shaq got in shape at his leisure. He dominated once in shape, don't get it twisted, but he still slacked off increasingly more and more as the years went by.

Fact: one of Kobe's longest scoring splurges when he went for 40 for like 6 or 7 games straight was while Shaq was still on the team chillin like a villain....

Still doesn't take away from the fact that Shaq was more dominant overall

Raps08-09 Champ
01-23-2012, 10:20 PM
I don't think many say he "rode his coattails" I think most just point out that Shaq was clearly the best player on that team those years...

This.

mlisica19
01-23-2012, 10:21 PM
Everyone I have ever heard from about Kobes legacy, or the Lakers 3peat in the 2000's or Shaqs legacy... will state that Shaq was the best player in those series. When talking about Kobes legacy, people will often argue that Kobe would have never won without Shaq. That he was not the leader and man in charge of those championships.

But the truth of the matter is that Kobe was a huge piece of that dynasty. HUGE PIECE

naps
01-23-2012, 10:33 PM
Shaq's was clearly the best player on the planet those years. Why is that a question? If anyone has any doubt that only guarantees that person has not seen NBA those years.

AIRMAR72
01-23-2012, 10:50 PM
:facepalm: He didnt do $hyt with miami in the finals did u not watch? he road dwades coat tail ZO did much better...stop lying to yourself kobe hater and kobe got 2 without him

pau was simply reason why kobe won the 1st ring without shaq, the 2nd time around kobe played well in the playoffs but refs cheated boston and ron along with pau made the back breaking plays to sealed the game not kobe look at last yr playoff run when pau decided not play what happen to the lakers the broomstick protocal was handed to them what did kobe do in those games...NOTHING

seikou8
01-23-2012, 10:51 PM
Shaq's was clearly the best player on the planet those years. Why is that a question? If anyone has any doubt that only guarantees that person has not seen NBA those years.

this i will take prime shaq over anyone in their prime in the nba right now, koeb,lebron,wade, and durant dwights wishes he could be as good as shaq people forget sometimes.

Chronz
01-23-2012, 11:33 PM
I get that only haters say Kobe rode Shaq, but I never got the impression that Kobe was the MVP of any series. Even if he played the best I always knew the opposing team was committing the brunt of its focus on the giant in the middle. Unless the difference in production is astronomical, Ill take the guy whos attracting more attention.

Teeboy1487
01-23-2012, 11:59 PM
So what? Shaq was clearly the number one option. I dare anyone to say otherwise. However, Kobe contributed heavily and he earned those rings on his fingers. Without him, it would not have been possible. Also, Kobe has proven he could win as a number one option twice, so why is this is even relevant at all. Kobe has cemented his legacy. He is still a 5 time NBA champion at the end of the day.

Squad13
01-24-2012, 12:01 AM
2000 Finals:
Shaq 38ppg on 61FG%
Kobe 15.5ppg on 37FG%

2001 Finals:
Shaq 33ppg on 57FG%
Kobe 24.5ppg on 42FG%

2002 Finals:
Shaq 36ppg on 60FG%
Kobe 26.5ppg on 51FG%

It's clear who the #1 option is on all of these teams, Shaq dominated each and every Finals series, showing why he was deserving of the Finals MVP award.

Shaq was clearly the number one option, but using FG% is asinine. Of coure a center is going to have a higher fg% shot attempts would be more fitting.

HouRealCoach
01-24-2012, 12:29 AM
Cause he was the mvp of those squads

kenzo400
01-24-2012, 12:48 AM
Because some poeple don't like Kobe and/or don't like the Lakers.

Kobe deserved all his rings.

Except the two he has without Shaq. The referees were particularly nice to the Lakers the last game 7 against Celtics.

WeBallin
01-25-2012, 07:08 PM
:facepalm: He didnt do $hyt with miami in the finals did u not watch? he road dwades coat tail ZO did much better...stop lying to yourself kobe hater and kobe got 2 without him

Ummm so you sayin a dominate shaq, had nothin to do with Wade bein able to play as freely as he did durrin that run? Then you my friend are lyin to yourself.... Thats Crazy that you would think that the most dominate big of my time, i won't say yours not sure of your age but the Best C in the Last 15 years was ridin the coatail of Dwade....

Chronz
01-26-2012, 01:58 AM
:facepalm: He didnt do $hyt with miami in the finals did u not watch? he road dwades coat tail ZO did much better...stop lying to yourself kobe hater and kobe got 2 without him

Ignoring what Shaq contributed in the rounds prior to the Finals would be as low as what Kobe Haters do to your boy.

Besides Shaq was still commanding double teams.

Raps08-09 Champ
01-26-2012, 02:01 AM
Ignoring what Shaq contributed in the rounds prior to the Finals would be as low as what Kobe Haters do to your boy.

Besides Shaq was still commanding double teams.

More like triple teams.

Chronz
01-26-2012, 02:02 AM
More like triple teams.

Miami Shaq?

Ty Fast
01-26-2012, 02:03 AM
dont go too far:no:


I don't think many say he "rode his coattails" I think most just point out that Shaq was clearly the best player on that team those years...

thats why he won mvp everytime

Bruno
01-26-2012, 08:29 AM
greatest team record in NBA playoff history, 15-1 in the 2001 playoffs. what they did together in the 2001 playoffs was very special. Bryants numbers in the 2001 playoffs were actually better than they were during the post season when he landed his second Finals MVP.

Shaq was the man, he was in his prime. but that doesn't mean Bryant didn't post #1 option numbers as the second option. he did, and thats why LAL got away without having a true #3, or that much of a bench on their way to the three-peat. you don't beat out a prime shaquille oneal in post-season win-shares like bryant did in 2001 without putting up some pretty serious numbers. they needed each-other. but shaqs dominance was nearly unmatched in the record books, let alone by anyone at the time.

only three times in NBA history has a given core gone for a three-peat. Russells/Havliceks/Reds C's (8), Jordans/Scotties/Phils Bulls (twice) and Shaq/Kobe/Phils Lakers.

people like to bring this up to discredit both players, depending on who you're talking to, and what the debate is. it's unfortunate that people find reason to low-ball either player. the best of fans don't get involved in that, and recognize them for what they were; the greatest center/sg combination in league history.

Bruno
01-26-2012, 08:37 AM
kobe bryant fans shouldn't bother with these criticisms of him. take away the three-peat and he's still only one of four players in NBA history to win back-to-back finals MVP's (Jordan, Dream, Shaq, Bryant), Russells award. his legacy is cemented. only the most unreasonable of fans will disput that. 9/10 fans give him his due, and that will only continue to grow once he's immortalized by retirement.

Bruno
01-26-2012, 08:42 AM
kobe never deserved finals MVP over shaq. finals MVP is about the finals, which Shaq always dominated. the pacers, 76ers and Nets had no match for shaq on the block.

i could build a fine statistical argument comparing kobes and shaqs numbers against San Antonio (the real championship series), but it would be irrelevant in regards to a discussion of finals MVP.

Bruno
01-26-2012, 08:53 AM
2000 Finals:
Shaq 38ppg on 61FG%
Kobe 15.5ppg on 37FG%

2001 Finals:
Shaq 33ppg on 57FG%
Kobe 24.5ppg on 42FG%

2002 Finals:
Shaq 36ppg on 60FG%
Kobe 26.5ppg on 51FG%

It's clear who the #1 option is on all of these teams, Shaq dominated each and every Finals series, showing why he was deserving of the Finals MVP award.

Considering Shaqs atrocious FT%, no honest reflection of scoring efficiency can lack an analysis of TS%.


I think this post says it all

it doesn't.


Ummm cause its true, Shaq had him a ring with out Kobe

and kobe has two without shaq. they needed eachother (or another dominant wing/post presence in the others place).


I thought it was MVP of the finals, not the playoffs

I may be wrong, but i doubt it
you're right.


Well it's true, Kobe was interchangeable at that point in time, Shaq wasn't. Numerous players could've fill Kobe's spot and the outcome would be the same. Ray Allen, T Mac, VC, and even AI, playing alongside Shaq during those years would've won those titles.. however, I don't see Kobe winning a chip without Shaq those years..

speculation.


stats don't lie

they can.


Look at how Wade played with Shaq on the Heat; you could tell that Wade was the clear leader of that team. When Shaq was with Kobe, the offense ran through Shaq and it was very transparent. Kobe was a second option who thrived from having the best center in the league, at that time. Look at how well Kobe plays when he has a good center bailing him out (i.e Shaq, Bynum/Gasol).

go look at the box score from game one of the 2009 finals and get back to me.
http://www.basketball-reference.com/boxscores/200906040LAL.html



pau was simply reason why kobe won the 1st ring without shaq, the 2nd time around kobe played well in the playoffs but refs cheated boston and ron along with pau made the back breaking plays to sealed the game not kobe look at last yr playoff run when pau decided not play what happen to the lakers the broomstick protocal was handed to them what did kobe do in those games...NOTHING

what?


I get that only haters say Kobe rode Shaq, but I never got the impression that Kobe was the MVP of any series. Even if he played the best I always knew the opposing team was committing the brunt of its focus on the giant in the middle. Unless the difference in production is astronomical, Ill take the guy whos attracting more attention.

totally.

magichatnumber9
01-26-2012, 09:00 AM
Shaq was in his prime and Kobe was still learning his craft. Nothing wrong with that.

todu82
01-26-2012, 01:41 PM
I can see why people would say that. Back then Kobe was still growing into the player he is today, though he was cold towards Shaq I think he learned a lot from him.

BradfordIsElite
01-26-2012, 02:19 PM
Look at how Wade played with Shaq on the Heat; you could tell that Wade was the clear leader of that team. When Shaq was with Kobe, the offense ran through Shaq and it was very transparent. Kobe was a second option who thrived from having the best center in the league, at that time. Look at how well Kobe plays when he has a good center bailing him out (i.e Shaq, Bynum/Gasol).

"Bailing" him out is going to a little too far. Although if you'd like to look at it that way, why not take a second to look at some of the greatest players over the past couple of years in Steve Nash, LBJ, Derrick Rose, Dwayne Wade, Jason Kidd, Carmelo Anthony, Cp3, Deron Williams, KD, etc.. they have a combined 2 titles to split between the bunch. 10 random superstars named of this era and 2 total championships being that Kidd finally got his first last year and D-Wade, the 2nd year he played along side Shaq..Kobe doubles the list of players to this point with rings and is still going. Obviously he was the 2nd option to Shaq when he was still amidst the earliers stages of his career. Do you think any of these players I mentioned would have averaged more then the big diesal in points? hell no, not Rose,nor LeBron..none of them. And to add, Kobe is the player the Lakers committed OVER somebody like Shaq himself because they knew he was already going to be an all-time great. I'm not so sure you'd be able to say the same for any of these guys. He played superior along side arguably one of the top 10 most dominating players of all time & then went on to lead the Lakers to 3 more finals appearnces with an all-star in Gasol, winning 2 of them.
Other players do not bail out Bryant, he's the one who bails his teammates out if anything. Him and Shaq were a duo, neither would have won it all without eachother, as good as Shaq was..he needed Kobe Bryant to win back to back to back titles.
Wade won that title ALL because Shaq was at the very and of his prime and was hungry for at least one more. No credit taken away from D-Wade, he played the best I've ever seen under Jordan/Kobe at the SG position but was definitely bailed out by Shaq so to speak if that's how you would like to think of it. If he is to get bailed out 4 more times, I'll consider him to be among the best ever.........until then, I wouldn't consider Kobe of that label.