PDA

View Full Version : 2011-2012 Official MVP Discussion Thread



Pages : [1] 2 3 4 5

Baller1
01-20-2012, 05:09 PM
First "Race To MVP" is now out, so let the debates begin.

http://www.nba.com/mvp-ladder/2011-12/index.html?cid=nba_12_facebook_L

1. Kevin Durant
2. Lebron James
3. Kobe Bryant
4. Dwight Howard
5. Derrick Rose
6. Chris Paul
7. Dwyane Wade
8. Kevin Love
9. Lamarcus Aldridge
10. Paul Millsap

11. Russel Westbrook
12. Dirk Nowitzki
13. Tony Parker
14. Andrew Bynum
15. Ty Lawson

Lakerhead4ever
01-20-2012, 05:15 PM
i guess their basing it off who has the better record as of now, but obviously lebron should be number one. and durant second

JordansBulls
01-20-2012, 06:14 PM
Interesting.

Raph12
01-20-2012, 07:17 PM
My List
1. Lebron James
2. Kevin Durant
3. Dwight Howard
4. Derrick Rose
5. Kobe Bryant

daleja424
01-20-2012, 07:30 PM
I don't care if the heat are .500 there isn't a person on the planet that can put together the games Lebron has. No one. Not a single person.

Lebron has been head and shoulders over everyone else this year.

1. Lebron


4. Durant

6. Others...

Avenged
01-20-2012, 07:42 PM
Bynum top 15? whoa

Ebbs
01-20-2012, 07:51 PM
LeBron . . . . .. . . .

No argument.

ManRam
01-20-2012, 07:55 PM
I think it's fair. It's too early on, but LeBron, Durant, Dwight and Kobe are my 4 favorites right now for sure.

LeBron should be #1 though, for sure.

Nick O
01-20-2012, 08:01 PM
no love for eddy curry?

JordansBulls
01-20-2012, 08:05 PM
I don't care if the heat are .500 there isn't a person on the planet that can put together the games Lebron has. No one. Not a single person.

Lebron has been head and shoulders over everyone else this year.

1. Lebron


4. Durant

6. Others...

Then that would mean his numbers are empty stats that have no impact when you are on a team favored to win it all and that has 3 allstars if they are .500.

Nick O
01-20-2012, 08:08 PM
Then that would mean his numbers are empty stats that have no impact when you are on a team favored to win it all and that has 3 allstars if they are .500.

lol but they arnt .500 so this whole convo is uselss :P

Kakaroach
01-20-2012, 11:10 PM
Paul Millsap! So awesome to see him getting some recognition from the media. Big props to Milly.

bovice163
01-20-2012, 11:12 PM
I like the list. I think you can easily argue LeBron over KD, but I want KD to win it this year. He's deserving of much more.

Cal827
01-20-2012, 11:15 PM
After tonight, Lemarcus could be higher. Also Wade and Rose shouldn't be on there.. their teams are better without them... in fact Bosh should be the front runner... the team has a 100% winning percentage without Lebron and Wade because of him. :D

BcEuAbRsS
01-21-2012, 10:32 AM
I'm not sure how Lebron doesn't get it...

SteBO
01-21-2012, 10:41 AM
KD is #1 based on his teams' record, which to me is complete bogus. Not a knock on KD at all, he probably will deservingly win the thing and I'd be happy with that, but the way MVP is decided gets altered sometimes. "Most Valuable Player" seems like a very simple concept to me, but that gets thrown out the window when you see that the winner of the award ends up being either a) the media-hyped guy (positive reaction), or b) the best player on the team with the best record. These two things don't really define the Most Valuable Player to me.

CHANGO
01-21-2012, 11:39 AM
It's all about balance...

_Great Individual Stats
_Team Record

Top teams right now - Chicago, Oklahoma, Philadelphia, Orlando, Miami, Indiana (5 of 6 teams from the EAST :speechless:)

Of those 6 teams, 4 teams have a clear leader, star, the other 2 are well balanced teams.

Let's see the 4 stars.


PLAYER GP GS MIN PPG OFFR DEFR RPG APG SPG BPG TPG FPG A/TO PER
Derrick Rose, PG 13 13 37.0 20.8 0.7 2.8 3.5 8.7 0.92 0.54 3.2 1.5 2.7 23.6
Kevin Durant, SF 15 15 36.1 26.5 0.5 6.3 6.9 3.3 1.13 1.20 3.6 1.8 0.9 27.3
Dwight Howard, C 15 15 38.6 20.2 4.1 12.0 16.1 2.4 1.40 2.33 3.3 3.4 0.7 25.2
LeBron James, SF 13 13 37.2 29.9 1.3 6.6 7.9 7.6 2.00 0.85 3.8 1.9 2.0 34.7

Rose has low PPG, PER(compared to Lebron, Durant) and RPG.
Howard has low PPG, PER(compared to Lebron) and APG.
Durant has low PER(compared to Lebron), and APG.
Lebron is just a balanced beast, leads in points, 2nd in rebounds, 2nd in APG, 1st in PER by 7.4 :speechless:

To me Lebron has the best balance.

tredigs
01-21-2012, 12:04 PM
It's all about balance...

_Great Individual Stats
_Team Record

Top teams right now - Chicago, Oklahoma, Philadelphia, Orlando, Miami, Indiana (5 of 6 teams from the EAST :speechless:)

Of those 6 teams, 4 teams have a clear leader, star, the other 2 are well balanced teams.

Let's see the 4 stars.


PLAYER GP GS MIN PPG OFFR DEFR RPG APG SPG BPG TPG FPG A/TO PER
Derrick Rose, PG 13 13 37.0 20.8 0.7 2.8 3.5 8.7 0.92 0.54 3.2 1.5 2.7 23.6
Kevin Durant, SF 15 15 36.1 26.5 0.5 6.3 6.9 3.3 1.13 1.20 3.6 1.8 0.9 27.3
Dwight Howard, C 15 15 38.6 20.2 4.1 12.0 16.1 2.4 1.40 2.33 3.3 3.4 0.7 25.2
LeBron James, SF 13 13 37.2 29.9 1.3 6.6 7.9 7.6 2.00 0.85 3.8 1.9 2.0 34.7

Rose has low PPG, PER(compared to Lebron, Durant) and RPG.
Howard has low PPG, PER(compared to Lebron) and APG.
Durant has low PER(compared to Lebron), and APG.
Lebron is just a balanced beast, leads in points, 2nd in rebounds, 2nd in APG, 1st in PER by 7.4 :speechless:

To me Lebron has the best balance.

Congrats, Lebron James is your most balanced MVP through 13 games.

We're such losers.

CHANGO
01-21-2012, 12:43 PM
Congrats, Lebron James is your most balanced MVP through 13 games.

We're such losers.

LOL I'm glad you included yourself. :D

Only 13 games and if he continues like that, he will be the MVP. No doubt.

Anyway as a HEAT fan, I prefer a Championship or Finals MVP. That's all.

alencp3
01-21-2012, 01:33 PM
Where is Al Harrington?

CHANGO
01-21-2012, 01:53 PM
Where is Al Harrington?

He's beasting and I'm glad he is in my Fantasy Team. :clap: BUT he is just another good player in a great balanced team.

alencp3
01-21-2012, 03:17 PM
He's beasting and I'm glad he is in my Fantasy Team. :clap: BUT he is just another good player in a great balanced team.

Dude i was joking
The list is ok though except for wade he shouldnt be anywhere near top 10

CHANGO
01-21-2012, 03:38 PM
Dude i was joking
The list is ok though except for wade he shouldnt be anywhere near top 10

I imagine it. ;)

I agree with that, Dwyane Wade has been hurt and hasn't played many games. In fact, Bosh should be near that top 10. He carried the team without Lebron and Wade, and has been more consistent.


GP MPG FGM-FGA FG% 3PM-3PA 3P% FTM-FTA FT% RPG APG BLKPG STLPG PFPG TOPG PPG
2011-12 Regular Season 14 36.5 7.9-15.1 .519 0.2-1.1 .200 3.7-5.1 .722 8.1 1.9 1.0 1.2 2.9 2.5 19.6
2011-12 Regular Season 9 35.1 7.6-17.2 .439 0.0-0.3 .000 4.4-6.2 .714 4.3 5.4 1.7 2.0 2.7 3.2 19.6

Red - Bosh
Blue - Wade

Iodine
01-21-2012, 06:02 PM
Really LeBron is number one for me, then Dwight, then Kobe, then Duant, and Durant is my favorite player

Iodine
01-21-2012, 06:03 PM
Congrats, Lebron James is your most balanced MVP through 13 games.

We're such losers.

Remember when we made the best missed putt of all time?

ManRam
01-21-2012, 07:25 PM
I slept on it.

It's gotta be LeBron, and I can't have Kobe in my top 4. I just keep thinking, "wow, what if LeBron had Pau and Bynum...that team would be so sick"...unless this Laker team finishes first or second (not happening), Kobe shouldn't get as much love as I thought...and as much love as I was ready to give him.

NBAfan4life
01-21-2012, 07:34 PM
I'm really surprised to see Kobe ahead of Howard.

theheatles
01-21-2012, 08:14 PM
lol there is no reason KD should be 1 and the only reason he is #1 is because whoever put together this list is a stubborn **** who didnt want to sway from his preseason vote

knicks_champ
01-21-2012, 10:38 PM
So far Lebron James... He is playing at a outstanding pace and without him the Heat would be nothing.

smiddy012
01-22-2012, 01:23 AM
It's LBJs unless his offense drops off dramatically.

KB-Pau-DH2012
01-22-2012, 01:48 AM
LeBron gets my vote!

Bullsfan22
01-22-2012, 03:41 AM
I got Lebron as my MVP.

naps
01-22-2012, 04:04 AM
LeBron James as of now. It's not really close to be honest. A lot can be changed with time but if LeBron keeps playing like he has been, it's over.

JordansBulls
01-22-2012, 09:33 AM
I slept on it.

It's gotta be LeBron, and I can't have Kobe in my top 4. I just keep thinking, "wow, what if LeBron had Pau and Bynum...that team would be so sick"...unless this Laker team finishes first or second (not happening), Kobe shouldn't get as much love as I thought...and as much love as I was ready to give him.

He has prime Wade (proven winner) and Bosh and still doesn't even have the best record in the league and lost 3 games in a row with them.

JordansBulls
01-22-2012, 09:36 AM
LeBron James as of now. It's not really close to be honest. A lot can be changed with time but if LeBron keeps playing like he has been, it's over.

Lebron is out ahead of everyone statistically no doubt about it, and that is mainly because guys who normally play well aren't such as Wade, Dirk, CP3, Dwight to an extent, Deron, etc.
However despite that, I dont see Lebron getting MVP unless the Heat finish ahead of Chicago.

Here were the predictions made at the beginning of the season. Miami and OKC were soo far out ahead that in order for Lebron or Durant to get MVP they need to get the top spot in the Conference.


http://espn.go.com/nba/preview2011/story/_/page/Predictions1112-nbachamp/nba-nba-champion-predictions

2011-2012 NBA Champs



Results: Miami Heat (25), Chicago Bulls (3), Oklahoma City Thunder (2).




http://espn.go.com/nba/preview2011/story/_/page/Predictions1112-East/nba-east-champion-predictions

2011-2012 Eastern Champs



Results: Miami Heat (27), Chicago Bulls (3).



------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

http://espn.go.com/nba/preview2011/story/_/page/Predictions1112-West/nba-west-champion-predictions

2011-2012 Western Champs

Results: Oklahoma City Thunder (26 votes), Los Angeles Lakers (2 votes), Dallas Mavericks (1 vote), Los Angeles Clippers (1 vote).

alencp3
01-22-2012, 10:00 AM
Al Harrington continues to impress

DR_1
01-22-2012, 12:17 PM
Durant (Dwight a close second) for me, at least until Rose gets healthy.

tredigs
01-22-2012, 02:08 PM
He has prime Wade (proven winner) and Bosh and still doesn't even have the best record in the league and lost 3 games in a row with them.

Way too early to focus on the teams win/loss JB and you know this. Just look at the top 5 teams and ask yourself who is playing the best. There's no other answer than Bron right now; we are so used to Lebron killing it that we are taking for granted a point-forward who is putting up 30/8/7 with 2 steals and a block on 57% shooting! His PER at 35.2 and WinShares at 3.9 are a full 30%+ higher than the next best. And he's been killing it alongside Bosh and Co. with D. Wade out, bringing out the best in CB4 we've seen in a long time. He's the leagues MVP - there's no contender to what he's doing, it's a top 5 season in league history thus far.

THE GIPPER
01-22-2012, 02:20 PM
1. Lebron
2. KD
3. Dwight
4. Rose/Paul
5. Rose/Paul

Htownballa1622
01-22-2012, 04:23 PM
Lebron.

And right now its not close IMO. I hate how some ppl want to disregard Lebron's play when its because its LEBRON. if it were dirk (just an example) i'm sure they would have no problem ranking him one.

Some ppl need to quit being biased having their mind set to go against Lebron. S#!+$ gettin old.

Raph12
01-22-2012, 04:47 PM
1. Lebron
2. KD
3. Dwight
4. Rose/Paul
5. Rose/Paul

Now this is a list, but I'd put CP3 ahead of Rose; look at the Clipps without CP3 and look at the Bulls without Rose... So much for Bulls fans claiming they're a lottery team without their MVP. :rolleyes:

tredigs
01-22-2012, 05:13 PM
Lebron.

And right now its not close IMO. I hate how some ppl want to disregard Lebron's play when its because its LEBRON. if it were dirk (just an example) i'm sure they would have no problem ranking him one.

Some ppl need to quit being biased having their mind set to go against Lebron. S#!+$ gettin old.

If KD, Melo, Dirk, Rose, Wade or anyone else in the world were having his flat out video game level of production it would easily be the #1 story in basketball.

People are used to him dominating, but he's on another level even for his own self right now.

JordansBulls
01-22-2012, 05:23 PM
Way too early to focus on the teams win/loss JB and you know this. Just look at the top 5 teams and ask yourself who is playing the best. There's no other answer than Bron right now; we are so used to Lebron killing it that we are taking for granted a point-forward who is putting up 30/8/7 with 2 steals and a block on 57% shooting! His PER at 35.2 and WinShares at 3.9 are a full 30%+ higher than the next best. And he's been killing it alongside Bosh and Co. with D. Wade out, bringing out the best in CB4 we've seen in a long time. He's the leagues MVP - there's no contender to what he's doing, it's a top 5 season in league history thus far.

65 games isn't going to be considered a full season simply because you may not be able to coast like you do in a 82 game season like other greats may have done so.

If you watch games, at the end you can tell he is stat padding. For instance just yesterday when the Heat up 13 with like 5 minutes he procedes to score 10 points and take pretty much every shot until he went out. My point is that his PER would still be high around 30 or maybe even 31 still, but it wouldn't be 35 if you had other guys in the league putting up big numbers. In 2003, you had Mcgrady, Kobe, Duncan, Shaq, Garnett to name a few guys who put up big numbers. Now this year you really only have Lebron.
All the other guys who usually put up big numbers aren't playing that well or aren't playing much such as Wade, Dirk, Dwight, CP3 to name a few.

My main point is that no matter how statistically dominant Lebron has been, if the Heat don't finish ahead of the Bulls in the rankings he won't be the MVP and nor should he be considering how overwhelming favorites the Heat are over everyone this year.

JordansBulls
01-22-2012, 05:28 PM
Now this is a list, but I'd put CP3 ahead of Rose; look at the Clipps without CP3 and look at the Bulls without Rose... So much for Bulls fans claiming they're a lottery team without their MVP. :rolleyes:

The one team we played that was halfway decent we got blown out of the gym against in Memphis. The other teams we played such as Toronto, Phoenix, Cleveland and the Bobcats are all teams below .500 and the best record out of all of them is 6-9.
Why the hell would you need your best player against teams that bad?

Raph12
01-22-2012, 05:37 PM
The one team we played that was halfway decent we got blown out of the gym against in Memphis. The other teams we played such as Toronto, Phoenix, Cleveland and the Bobcats are all teams below .500 and the best record out of all of them is 6-9.
Why the hell would you need your best player against teams that bad?

Because you are also an apparent "lottery" team without that best player. Bulls fans PSD-wide claimed the Bulls wouldn't be a playoffs team without Rose... That was one of the first games you played without Rose and you played a team that is 4th place out West.

You guys aren't nearly as bad without Rose as you claimed.

JordansBulls
01-22-2012, 05:40 PM
Because you are also an apparent "lottery" team without that best player. Bulls fans PSD-wide claimed the Bulls wouldn't be a playoffs team without Rose... That was one of the first games you played without Rose and you played a team that is 4th place out West.

You guys aren't nearly as bad without Rose as you claimed.

We aren't bad because now we have Rip on the squad so really we can have Rose miss games against bad teams and still probably win. But we ain't going to beat any decent teams without him like the Heat did without Lebron and Wade when they won in Atlanta.

Htownballa1622
01-22-2012, 05:45 PM
If KD, Melo, Dirk, Rose, Wade or anyone else in the world were having his flat out video game level of production it would easily be the #1 story in basketball.

People are used to him dominating, but he's on another level even for his own self right now.

Yezzir well said

Raph12
01-22-2012, 05:51 PM
We aren't bad because now we have Rip on the squad so really we can have Rose miss games against bad teams and still probably win. But we ain't going to beat any decent teams without him like the Heat did without Lebron and Wade when they won in Atlanta.

So Rip turns a lottery team into a playoffs team? And with that comment, I'll take my leave.

JordansBulls
01-22-2012, 06:02 PM
So Rip turns a lottery team into a playoffs team? And with that comment, I'll take my leave.

When you are replacing Bogans yes.

And last year the Bulls would have been a lottery team simply because Boozer was out 20+ games and Noah out 30+ games. So yes if you add Rose saying he was out all year, the Bulls would probably have been a lottery team. However when completely healthy the Bulls are a 6 seed in the East with no Rose and the Heat are a top 2 seed with no Wade but with Lebron and Bosh or a top 2 seed with no Lebron but healthy Wade and Bosh.
The only guy you could probably take off his team where the team would go from a top 3 seed to probably out of the playoffs is Dwight.

Chronz
01-22-2012, 06:48 PM
J B lives in fear of Bron sustaining this level of dominance all year

Raph12
01-22-2012, 07:06 PM
J B lives in fear of Bron sustaining this level of dominance all year

Best statistical season of alltime if he does, I'd be shocked to be honest, even though it is Lebron... That would definitely be the epitome of greatness.

kozelkid
01-22-2012, 07:09 PM
If KD, Melo, Dirk, Rose, Wade or anyone else in the world were having his flat out video game level of production it would easily be the #1 story in basketball.

People are used to him dominating, but he's on another level even for his own self right now.

I felt it was moreso in the beginning of the season before he decided to bring the 3 ball back. Yes, he's hitting them now, but I expect that to go down back to around his career averaged of 32-33.

Still, he should have that MVP award locked, but with the media, we never know.

JordansBulls
01-22-2012, 07:51 PM
Best statistical season of alltime if he does, I'd be shocked to be honest, even though it is Lebron... That would definitely be the epitome of greatness.

Not really, not when it is 65 game season.

JordansBulls
01-22-2012, 07:54 PM
J B lives in fear of Bron sustaining this level of dominance all year

It's dominance compared to guys in the league today perhaps on stats alone, but doesn't mean much when compared to other greats who did it with a bunch of guys putting up big numbers in the league as well. There is no Hakeem, Ewing, Robinson, Malone, Barkley, Magic, Bird all in there primes putting up numbers as well in the league today. All you really have is Dwight since Dirk, Wade, CP3, Rose have been out with injuries and those are the guys who would be putting up the numbers as well.

You eliminate guys like Kobe, Duncan, Garnett, Shaq, Dirk in 2003 and see what Tmac's PER would have been.

Raph12
01-22-2012, 08:01 PM
Not really, not when it is 65 game season.

It's still the best statistical season of alltime, especially if he do it for 60+games in this shortened season... It's actually more impressive that he's doing it with all of these back-to-backs and stuff.

JordansBulls
01-22-2012, 08:06 PM
It's still the best statistical season of alltime, especially if he do it for 60+games in this shortened season... It's actually more impressive that he's doing it with all of these back-to-backs and stuff.

Definitely not more impressive when a season is 82 games. It would be impressive if other guys in the league were putting up good numbers as well, but since they aren't it is going to help his PER. It's just like Wade's 2006 finals is the highest PER ever for a finals, but it wasn't really the best finals ever. His PER was high because no one else put up good numbers in it. The same applies here.

kozelkid
01-22-2012, 08:07 PM
It's still the best statistical season of alltime, especially if he do it for 60+games in this shortened season... It's actually more impressive that he's doing it with all of these back-to-backs and stuff.

Debatable. We all know that Lebron, being on a contender, worked hard this offseason. Whereas, many other players in this season were lazy and that might be giving him an advantage.

I wouldn't give him the advantage I mentioned, nor the disadvantage you mentioned. If he keeps it up, it'll be an alltime season. No need to pepper it up with any excuses in either direction.

Chronz
01-22-2012, 08:15 PM
It's dominance compared to guys in the league today perhaps on stats alone, but doesn't mean much when compared to other greats who did it with a bunch of guys putting up big numbers in the league as well. There is no Hakeem, Ewing, Robinson, Malone, Barkley, Magic, Bird all in there primes putting up numbers as well in the league today. All you really have is Dwight since Dirk, Wade, CP3, Rose have been out with injuries and those are the guys who would be putting up the numbers as well.
Thats one MJ fans opinion, but you could argue that his play coming in this hectic, rapid environment makes his performance even more impressive. Players are dropping like flies yet hes stronger than ever.

The truth is, it doesn't matter. League strength isn't the issue, Bron is dominating like never before regardless and he was already a GOAT regular season candidate. Taking it up a notch happens no matter the environment, I'm pretty sure its what Heat fans were expecting from Bosh and Bron, that they hit the ground running this year.



You eliminate guys like Kobe, Duncan, Garnett, Shaq, Dirk in 2003 and see what Tmac's PER would have been.
You got the #s handy, what your saying has some truth to it, but I doubt the translated rates change the scope of this conversation.

Other wise this argument hold as much merit as those who cried for MJ to play against 2K defenses.

JordansBulls
01-22-2012, 08:19 PM
Thats one MJ fans opinion, but you could argue that his play coming in this hectic, rapid environment makes his performance even more impressive. Players are dropping like flies yet hes stronger than ever.

The truth is, it doesn't matter. League strength isn't the issue, Bron is dominating like never before regardless and he was already a GOAT regular season candidate. Taking it up a notch happens no matter the environment, I'm pretty sure its what Heat fans were expecting from Bosh and Bron, that they hit the ground running this year.


You got the #s handy, what your saying has some truth to it, but I doubt the translated rates change the scope of this conversation.

Other wise this argument hold as much merit as those who cried for MJ to play against 2K defenses.


He missed a game himself this season because he didn't want to hurt his numbers. And if you watched the game yesterday you know he came in to stat pad in the end when the Heat were already up 13 points with 5 minutes left. He proceeded to take 6 of the next 7 shots of the game before he went out.

Chronz
01-22-2012, 08:22 PM
Debatable. We all know that Lebron, being on a contender, worked hard this offseason. Whereas, many other players in this season were lazy and that might be giving him an advantage.

I wouldn't give him the advantage I mentioned, nor the disadvantage you mentioned. If he keeps it up, it'll be an alltime season. No need to pepper it up with any excuses in either direction.

True its an advantage as a result of his conditioning, but at least it wasnt a long layoff.
I think what hes doing is unsustainable because he will pace himself (i hope) and the rest of the league will get going too.
But he could very well have his finest season yet, and considering how good his other seasons have been, thats a crazy thought. I wouldn't have predicted that.

Well see how his playoffs go tho

CHANGO
01-22-2012, 08:25 PM
He missed a game himself this season because he didn't want to hurt his numbers. And if you watched the game yesterday you know he came in to stat pad in the end when the Heat were already up 13 points with 5 minutes left. He proceeded to take 6 of the next 7 shots of the game before he went out.

WOW!! Seriously!! :confused:

Chronz
01-22-2012, 08:26 PM
He missed a game himself this season because he didn't want to hurt his numbers. And if you watched the game yesterday you know he came in to stat pad in the end when the Heat were already up 13 points with 5 minutes left. He proceeded to take 6 of the next 7 shots of the game before he went out.
But he hurt his #s by not playing, his tally #s, our does he not care about career ranks. Hes also sat out before, and hes actually being less ball dominant to me this year.

Also whats your point, MJ did the same. Remember his 30/8/8 year, amazing huh.

tredigs
01-22-2012, 08:29 PM
It's still the best statistical season of alltime, especially if he do it for 60+games in this shortened season... It's actually more impressive that he's doing it with all of these back-to-backs and stuff.

I fully agree with this, offensive production is down across the board. Look at the scores of these games - but lebron? Inexplicably better. And his defense is absurd.

Not buying your "stat padding" comment JB. He has been dominant, period.

5ass
01-22-2012, 08:33 PM
lebron should be #1 no question.

THE GIPPER
01-22-2012, 08:42 PM
Not really, not when it is 65 game season.

Then why aren't other players having massive statistical seasons?

Its just as impressive or maybe even more impressive because of all the back-to-backs.

JordansBulls
01-23-2012, 12:09 AM
If the Heat don't finish ahead of the Bulls, Lebron isn't the MVP simple as that considering how much a favorite the Heat are over everyone else in the league.

Chronz
01-23-2012, 01:40 AM
If the Heat don't finish ahead of the Bulls, Lebron isn't the MVP simple as that considering how much a favorite the Heat are over everyone else in the league.
Depends on injuries

KB-Pau-DH2012
01-23-2012, 04:09 AM
If the Heat don't finish ahead of the Bulls, Lebron isn't the MVP simple as that considering how much a favorite the Heat are over everyone else in the league.

I'm soooo tired of this best player on the team with the best record in the league criteria. MVP award has become a joke.

Greet
01-23-2012, 09:34 AM
Marshon Brooks

bucketss
01-23-2012, 11:22 AM
I'm soooo tired of this best player on the team with the best record in the league criteria. MVP award has become a joke.

right, it should be given to the most valuable player by definition.. this award is just media award to me. wade should have one, cp3 should have one and kobe should have won that one year,and ofcourse dwight last year IMO

willabeast77
01-23-2012, 12:35 PM
LeBron is clearly the MVP so far. Besides why would Durant get it anyway, he has Westrbook. Who does LeBron have? no one.

The Heat could end up with the 2nd or 3rd best record in the east while OKC ends with the best record in the league, yet LeBron will still be more deserving of MVP.

Baller1
01-23-2012, 02:19 PM
LeBron is clearly the MVP so far. Besides why would Durant get it anyway, he has Westrbook. Who does LeBron have? no one.

The Heat could end up with the 2nd or 3rd best record in the east while OKC ends with the best record in the league, yet LeBron will still be more deserving of MVP.

Wait, what?

DODGERS&LAKERS
01-23-2012, 02:23 PM
LeBron is clearly the MVP so far. Besides why would Durant get it anyway, he has Westrbook. Who does LeBron have? no one.

The Heat could end up with the 2nd or 3rd best record in the east while OKC ends with the best record in the league, yet LeBron will still be more deserving of MVP.

Exactly. Wait huh?

ManRam
01-23-2012, 02:51 PM
He missed a game himself this season because he didn't want to hurt his numbers. And if you watched the game yesterday you know he came in to stat pad in the end when the Heat were already up 13 points with 5 minutes left. He proceeded to take 6 of the next 7 shots of the game before he went out.

JB, you are coming across as nothing short of an absolute hater here. Yikes.

There is no argument against LeBron right now. He's waxing the league. His efficiency is just astronomical. It's almost at an unfathomable level right now.

Rose has no shot. Last year was the perfect scenario for him: low team expectations and a subsequent #1 seed. The Bulls are known to be a good team, so he's not going to surprise people any more, and for him to win it again he's actually going to have to play like the best player in the NBA, something he's not close to doing yet. The reason they're still winning without him, however, is not because he's not a valuable piece, it's because of their defense, which has always been the main reason why they're great.

Kobe is set up well to win it because his team's expectations have been shot. The MVP is all about storylines, as last year proved. The Lakers somehow finishing with a top 2-3 record would be an amazing feat, and would make him a very attractive MVP candidate.

KD is just playing like normal KD. He's a top 5 player on a great team, but there's really no great story that can propel him to winning this. A #1 overall seed would help.

And then there's Dwight. The actual life force of his team. The actual one player who means the most to his team. The actual one player who if you removed you'd see a bottom 5-7 team as a result. He won't win this year because he's a little baby, and he doesn't get the media attention (in positive ways, he's obviously getting it for his trade requests) either.

1. LeBron
2+. The rest

Raph12
01-23-2012, 03:21 PM
I can't believe JB is trying so hard to discredit Lebron for what he's done so far this season. If Rose were to be playing like this, JB would've started 500 GOAT threads for him... Don't discredit Lebron because he's Lebron.

JordansBulls
01-23-2012, 03:38 PM
JB, you are coming across as nothing short of an absolute hater here. Yikes.

There is no argument against LeBron right now. He's waxing the league. His efficiency is just astronomical. It's almost at an unfathomable level right now.

Rose has no shot. Last year was the perfect scenario for him: low team expectations and a subsequent #1 seed. The Bulls are known to be a good team, so he's not going to surprise people any more, and for him to win it again he's actually going to have to play like the best player in the NBA, something he's not close to doing yet. The reason they're still winning without him, however, is not because he's not a valuable piece, it's because of their defense, which has always been the main reason why they're great.

Kobe is set up well to win it because his team's expectations have been shot. The MVP is all about storylines, as last year proved. The Lakers somehow finishing with a top 2-3 record would be an amazing feat, and would make him a very attractive MVP candidate.

KD is just playing like normal KD. He's a top 5 player on a great team, but there's really no great story that can propel him to winning this. A #1 overall seed would help.

And then there's Dwight. The actual life force of his team. The actual one player who means the most to his team. The actual one player who if you removed you'd see a bottom 5-7 team as a result. He won't win this year because he's a little baby, and he doesn't get the media attention (in positive ways, he's obviously getting it for his trade requests) either.

1. LeBron
2+. The rest


6th seed when they are supposed to be running away with the best record and many even predicted going 58-8 all year.

If the Bulls finish #1 he certainly does have a shot to be MVP again especially if he is the only allstar on the team again.

JordansBulls
01-23-2012, 03:42 PM
I'm soooo tired of this best player on the team with the best record in the league criteria. MVP award has become a joke.

That's not what was said. What was said is why should he get MVP when they are soo heavily favorite to dominate the league and be the best team by far and they don't even end up with the top seed in there own conference?

If you can't lead a team that is supposed to be the hands down favorite to win it all to the top seed, then why should you be MVP?

http://espn.go.com/nba/preview2011/story/_/page/Predictions1112-nbachamp/nba-nba-champion-predictions

2011-2012 NBA Champs



Results: Miami Heat (25), Chicago Bulls (3), Oklahoma City Thunder (2).




http://espn.go.com/nba/preview2011/story/_/page/Predictions1112-East/nba-east-champion-predictions

2011-2012 Eastern Champs



Results: Miami Heat (27), Chicago Bulls (3).



------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

http://espn.go.com/nba/preview2011/story/_/page/Predictions1112-West/nba-west-champion-predictions

2011-2012 Western Champs

Results: Oklahoma City Thunder (26 votes), Los Angeles Lakers (2 votes), Dallas Mavericks (1 vote), Los Angeles Clippers (1 vote).


-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2011/basketball/nba/12/22/crystal.ball/index.html?sct=nba_t11_a3




The Heat and Thunder were unanimously selected to win their conferencesHeat are favored to win it all, Thunder forward Kevin Durant predicted to win MVP


Read more: http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2011/basketball/nba/12/22/crystal.ball/index.html#ixzz1hNNChglz

kozelkid
01-23-2012, 03:43 PM
JB if you honestly think Miami will finish with the 6th seed, then I don't know what to tell you. They'll be a 2nd or a 3rd seed at worst. No question.

CHANGO
01-23-2012, 04:53 PM
My God... You are trying too hard my man.

JordansBulls
01-23-2012, 04:58 PM
JB if you honestly think Miami will finish with the 6th seed, then I don't know what to tell you. They'll be a 2nd or a 3rd seed at worst. No question.

I believe they will finish 2nd as well, I am just saying for a team that is supposed to run away and dominate the league then why should anyone on that team win league mvp when they don't even finish with the top spot. It's one thing if it was it was a few teams on there level supposedly but 75% of GM's have them favorite to win it and other rankings have 90%.

tredigs
01-23-2012, 05:12 PM
I believe they will finish 2nd as well, I am just saying for a team that is supposed to run away and dominate the league then why should anyone on that team win league mvp when they don't even finish with the top spot. It's one thing if it was it was a few teams on there level supposedly but 75% of GM's have them favorite to win it and other rankings have 90%.

Yes, they're supposed to be a great team, and they are without question a great team. Like I mentioned the last time I posted in this thread, focus less on team records (the cream will rise to the top, almost always does. Even if Wade misses the rest of the season), and more on who the dominant players from the teams who have a chance to be true contenders. If Lebron keeps up anything close to this level of production and they get their top seed, it'll be very very tough to give anyone else MVP. And like I also mentioned earlier, if any other player in the NBA was having the year LBJ is having, the media world would be in a frenzy right now over how incredible it is.

5ass
01-23-2012, 05:14 PM
I believe they will finish 2nd as well, I am just saying for a team that is supposed to run away and dominate the league then why should anyone on that team win league mvp when they don't even finish with the top spot. It's one thing if it was it was a few teams on there level supposedly but 75% of GM's have them favorite to win it and other rankings have 90%.

so no matter how well bron plays, no matter how good his stats are, he shouldnt be MVP because the heat might not have the best record in the NBA? Ur going to take away what he deserves just because of probably being 2-4 wins from the #1 seed?

Oh and just because people said the heat would win it all, that doesnt mean that they think they'll have the #1 seed in the east, all it means is that they'll do well in the play offs, regular season MVPs have nothing to do with that.

5ass
01-23-2012, 05:16 PM
Yes, they're supposed to be a great team, and they are without question a great team. Like I mentioned the last time I posted in this thread, focus less on team records (the cream will rise to the top, almost always does. Even if Wade misses the rest of the season), and more on who the dominant players from the teams who have a chance to be true contenders. If Lebron keeps up anything close to this level of production and they get their top seed, it'll be very very tough to give anyone else MVP. And like I also mentioned earlier, if any other player in the NBA was having the year LBJ is having, the media world would be in a frenzy right now over how incredible it is.

i agree, LBJ is putting up ridiculous numbers.

Raph12
01-23-2012, 06:09 PM
It's a shame that Lebron has so many haters, if he keeps up how he's currently playing for the season, it would be unprecedented... "Greatness" is the only word I can use to describe it.

KB-Pau-DH2012
01-23-2012, 06:10 PM
If Dwight dominates tonight @ BOS, he takes the lead in the race.

JordansBulls
01-23-2012, 06:23 PM
so no matter how well bron plays, no matter how good his stats are, he shouldnt be MVP because the heat might not have the best record in the NBA? Ur going to take away what he deserves just because of probably being 2-4 wins from the #1 seed?

Oh and just because people said the heat would win it all, that doesnt mean that they think they'll have the #1 seed in the east, all it means is that they'll do well in the play offs, regular season MVPs have nothing to do with that.

Considering that team is the hands down favorite by everyone. All the odds point to Miami winning it all and the team has 3 allstars, if they don't finish with the top spot then he isn't the MVP. How are you the MVP when everyone is predicting you are going to be the best team and win it all?

It would be like Shaq getting MVP in 2001 when the Lakers weren't the top seed knowing they should have gotten it.

Fact of the matter is that Durant is most likely to get MVP if the Thunder are the top team in the West. They would have gone from the #4 seed to the #1 seed.

MTL_123
01-23-2012, 06:31 PM
Considering that team is the hands down favorite by everyone. All the odds point to Miami winning it all and the team has 3 allstars, if they don't finish with the top spot then he isn't the MVP. How are you the MVP when everyone is predicting you are going to be the best team and win it all?

It would be like Shaq getting MVP in 2001 when the Lakers weren't the top seed knowing they should have gotten it.

Fact of the matter is that Durant is most likely to get MVP if the Thunder are the top team in the West. They would have gone from the #4 seed to the #1 seed.

wow are u serious if lebron puts up thos stats for the rest of the season and the heats finish 2 in the east hes winning the mvp hands down. So your just basically forgeting everything he does just because they dnt finish 1st in the east :facepalm:

JordansBulls
01-23-2012, 06:35 PM
wow are u serious if lebron puts up thos stats for the rest of the season and the heats finish 2 in the east hes winning the mvp hands down. So your just basically forgeting everything he does just because they dnt finish 1st in the east :facepalm:

http://forums.prosportsdaily.com/showpost.php?p=20681123&postcount=77

TubbyBucket
01-23-2012, 07:39 PM
Rose has no shot. Last year was the perfect scenario for him: low team expectations and a subsequent #1 seed.

One of the weaker MVP's in recent history.

Personally, I think Lebron's stats will drop, but he'll still win. Howard and Durant both have a good shot as well.

SteBO
01-23-2012, 07:41 PM
6th seed when they are supposed to be running away with the best record and many even predicted going 58-8 all year.

If the Bulls finish #1 he certainly does have a shot to be MVP again especially if he is the only allstar on the team again.
:confused: Is the regular season over already?

TubbyBucket
01-23-2012, 07:59 PM
Considering that team is the hands down favorite by everyone. All the odds point to Miami winning it all and the team has 3 allstars, if they don't finish with the top spot then he isn't the MVP. How are you the MVP when everyone is predicting you are going to be the best team and win it all?

You would make a great GOP candidate.

Chronz
01-23-2012, 11:28 PM
Considering that team is the hands down favorite by everyone. All the odds point to Miami winning it all and the team has 3 allstars, if they don't finish with the top spot then he isn't the MVP. How are you the MVP when everyone is predicting you are going to be the best team and win it all?

It would be like Shaq getting MVP in 2001 when the Lakers weren't the top seed knowing they should have gotten it.

Fact of the matter is that Durant is most likely to get MVP if the Thunder are the top team in the West. They would have gone from the #4 seed to the #1 seed.

Shaq should have been the MVP and the MVP award winner for THAT year would AGREE.

Your wrong JB

northsider
01-23-2012, 11:42 PM
One of the weaker MVP's in recent history.

Personally, I think Lebron's stats will drop, but he'll still win. Howard and Durant both have a good shot as well.

Yeah he was just down right a rip off to win it last year. Seriously some of you stop at nothing to take cheap shots cause you are afraid to admit something or possible come off as giving a guy props. Rose was phenomenal last year as were the Bulls team most were picking to be a 6th seed. Rose was VERY deserving of that MVP award and saying other wise just shows your agenda.

People need to toss the notion that MVP always should translate to best statistical season cause their is quite a bit stats can't always measure and some of you are literally obsessed with them (this coming from a person who enjoys advanced stats allot and uses them all the time).

Baseball is one thing but, I really think they can display a inaccurate picture on the game of basketball if you use them like spoken word.

AS FOR THIS YEAR.

I would say Bron/Dwight/Durant. Really it will come down to maintaining their good play and the seeding of these teams cause the cons are very slim. I still refuse to count out Rose cause he is still playing amazing basketball and I feel like what can hold him back is if he misses allot of time if not I won't be shocked to see him finish high in the running.

Chronz
01-24-2012, 12:58 AM
Yeah he was just down right a rip off to win it last year. Seriously some of you stop at nothing to take cheap shots cause you are afraid to admit something or possible come off as giving a guy props. Rose was phenomenal last year as were the Bulls team most were picking to be a 6th seed. Rose was VERY deserving of that MVP award and saying other wise just shows your agenda.
He was deserving in the same way any MVP candidate is deserving, he definitely had himself an MVP caliber year, that comes with being on such a great team and being at least an All-NBA caliber player. All that said, I do not consider it a "phenomenal" year and I do consider it one of the weaker MVP races in history. How you come to the conclusion that the 2 notions are mutually exclusive is beyond me, but I am living proof that they are not.


People need to toss the notion that MVP always should translate to best statistical season cause their is quite a bit stats can't always measure and some of you are literally obsessed with them (this coming from a person who enjoys advanced stats allot and uses them all the time).

Heres the thing, this gos both ways. The things those stats dont measure, those other players shine brighter. Dwight and Bron arent just the best players stat wise, they happen to be the games premier defenders with great intangible worth. So neither the stats nor the intangibles favor Rose.


Baseball is one thing but, I really think they can display a inaccurate picture on the game of basketball if you use them like spoken word.

Cliche, nobody does this in basketball.

Yanks All Day
01-24-2012, 01:21 AM
Not one player in the NBA is even close to LeBron James production-wise. Hate is really getting in the way of some people, because it really is incredible how much better he is than everyone else. People will look at the Decision and his Finals shortcomings last year and completely forget that he's the best player in basketball having one of his best seasons ever. If this was anyone except LeBron, the race would be over already.

knightstemplar
01-24-2012, 04:51 AM
I'm soooo tired of this best player on the team with the best record in the league criteria. MVP award has become a joke.
This

Bruno
01-24-2012, 05:20 AM
LBJ has been unreal. hes playing at such a high level, i can't even hate on him any more.

LBJ detractors- just enjoy him while hes around. 260+ pounds on a 6'8 frame, with starters minutes since 2004 won't last for ever. appreciate this guy while he's in his prime!

:puke:

naps
01-24-2012, 07:06 AM
Not one player in the NBA is even close to LeBron James production-wise. Hate is really getting in the way of some people, because it really is incredible how much better he is than everyone else. People will look at the Decision and his Finals shortcomings last year and completely forget that he's the best player in basketball having one of his best seasons ever. If this was anyone except LeBron, the race would be over already.

Preach! This guy speaks the truth. I am damn sure deep down heart 99% haters also realize this truth.

Celtics33
01-24-2012, 07:32 AM
I don't care if the heat are .500 there isn't a person on the planet that can put together the games Lebron has. No one. Not a single person.

Lebron has been head and shoulders over everyone else this year.

1. Lebron


4. Durant

6. Others...

I absolutely agree with you.

Chronz
01-24-2012, 01:00 PM
JB, just ran some through some #'s , it looks like Brons PER is still a record in ANY era. Tho the lockout has definitely influenced the #'s more than any other year.

Baller1
01-24-2012, 01:20 PM
Guess who's second behind Lebron in a majority of the advanced statistics?

James Harden.

JordansBulls
01-24-2012, 01:22 PM
JB, just ran some through some #'s , it looks like Brons PER is still a record in ANY era. Tho the lockout has definitely influenced the #'s more than any other year.

Even Wilt didn't win MVP the year he put up the highest PER ever in any season.

bulldog312
01-24-2012, 01:37 PM
Heres the thing, this gos both ways. The things those stats dont measure, those other players shine brighter. Dwight and Bron arent just the best players stat wise, they happen to be the games premier defenders with great intangible worth. So neither the stats nor the intangibles favor Rose. .

I think this is leaving out the most important stat though: winning games. I don't care if Lebron breaks records for the best statistical year ever, if the Heat stay in 5th in the Eastern conference Lebron won't deserve to be MVP. It's a little different for Orlando because Dwight doesn't have the same type of help, but Orlando would still have to have a relatively good record. The bottom line is how do you help your team win games. If Chicago would easily win the East and Indiana would come in 2nd, I feel pretty confident that Rose would finish ahead of any other player in the East for MVP.

northsider
01-24-2012, 02:18 PM
He was deserving in the same way any MVP candidate is deserving, he definitely had himself an MVP caliber year, that comes with being on such a great team and being at least an All-NBA caliber player. All that said, I do not consider it a "phenomenal" year and I do consider it one of the weaker MVP races in history. How you come to the conclusion that the 2 notions are mutually exclusive is beyond me, but I am living proof that they are not.


Heres the thing, this gos both ways. The things those stats dont measure, those other players shine brighter. Dwight and Bron arent just the best players stat wise, they happen to be the games premier defenders with great intangible worth. So neither the stats nor the intangibles favor Rose.


Cliche, nobody does this in basketball.

Personally Chronz while you may claim you don't, you seem to always be a underhanded critique Rose's game quite often and if I didn't know better you seem to enjoy putting Rose down. You can disagree and that's fine but, just my take on it. As his 3rd year and 2nd year starting I would say for such a young kid he had a damn phenomenal season. He did allot of things people kept knocking him for like his defensive play as well as having a perimeter shot until it slowed on him a bit in the second half.

For the second part not sure if you are referring to this year or last year. However if you think NO intangibles favored Rose then I feel I am prob. talking to a wall. I thought both of them had great seasons but, honestly in a close race the fact that Rose was part of the 1 seed over 2 teams picked to finish well ahead of him was a damn good tie breaker.

No it is the same with Basketball I see it all the time allot of people are either only by the numbers or they are the people who make fun of the numbers and say those people don't watch the games.

I understand he isn't Lebron but, really no one is and it will be very very very rare you ever get a player of his size, build, who has the athleticism of him. That is not a knock on Lebron as much as it is almost like he in terms of body is well ahead of the field. He is like a DE that moves like a ballerina.

kozelkid
01-24-2012, 02:50 PM
Guess who's second behind Lebron in a majority of the advanced statistics?

James Harden.

I think I just realized the common variable for their success: beards.

Baller1
01-24-2012, 03:33 PM
I think I just realized the common variable for their success: beards.

Haha, it's the only plausible justification.

John Walls Era
01-24-2012, 03:35 PM
Kevin Durant. Thunder are on fire.

LAKERMANIA
01-24-2012, 05:21 PM
I really really hate the criteria for winning MVP in the NBA, why should it go to the best player on the best team?

Cal827
01-24-2012, 05:59 PM
Criteria for winning MVP :laugh: Be the Media Darling.

JordansBulls
01-24-2012, 06:02 PM
I really really hate the criteria for winning MVP in the NBA, why should it go to the best player on the best team?

It shouldn't, but it shouldn't go to the guy if his team is the hands down favorite either if they finish lower than expected.

Htownballa1622
01-24-2012, 06:20 PM
It shouldn't, but it shouldn't go to the guy if his team is the hands down favorite either if they finish lower than expected.

It should go to the player who played the best while putting up the stats and having the wins to back it up. Whether the HEAT get the 1st or 4th seed shouldn't matter if they're all close in wins. Lebron is having one of the greatest seasons we've seen yet you discredit him because of wins or short season.

In order for Lebron to get MVP in your eyes, he would need to.

1.end up with the top seed.
2.keep up his play.
3.somehow convince the NBA to have 82 games.
4. sweep the playoffs
5.win everything.
6.probably cure cancer.

CHANGO
01-24-2012, 06:26 PM
It should go to the player who played the best while putting up the stats and having the wins to back it up. Whether the HEAT get the 1st or 4th seed shouldn't matter if they're all close in wins. Lebron is having one of the greatest seasons we've seen yet you discredit him because of wins or short season.

In order for Lebron to get MVP in your eyes, he would need to.

1.end up with the top seed.
2.keep up his play.
3.somehow convince the NBA to have 82 games.
4. sweep the playoffs
5.win everything.
6.probably cure cancer.

:nod:
So true....
:laugh:

JordansBulls
01-24-2012, 06:27 PM
It should go to the player who played the best while putting up the stats and having the wins to back it up. Whether the HEAT get the 1st or 4th seed shouldn't matter if they're all close in wins. Lebron is having one of the greatest seasons we've seen yet you discredit him because of wins or short season.

In order for Lebron to get MVP in your eyes, he would need to.

1.end up with the top seed.
2.keep up his play.
3.somehow convince the NBA to have 82 games.
4. sweep the playoffs
5.win everything.
6.probably cure cancer.

http://forums.prosportsdaily.com/showpost.php?p=20681123&postcount=77

Htownballa1622
01-24-2012, 06:34 PM
http://forums.prosportsdaily.com/showpost.php?p=20681123&postcount=77

Of course. You've posted a POLL to ESPN numerous times. If that's the best response you have to try and discredit lebrons play, then you're just not going to budge for anything. Its a shame a person like you will continue to discredit him based off pure hatred.

Its almost like you're trying to hang on in your false reality that Lebron isn't having an MVP season just to satisfy you're mind.

JordansBulls
01-24-2012, 06:37 PM
Of course. You've posted a POLL to ESPN numerous times. If that's the best response you have to try and discredit lebrons play, then you're just not going to budge for anything. Its a shame a person like you will continue to discredit him based off pure hatred.

Its almost like you're trying to hang on in your false reality that Lebron isn't having an MVP season just to satisfy you're mind.

I never said he was playing bad nor did I say his numbers weren't the best. What I did say is that he doesn't deserve MVP if the Heat aren't the top seed considering how much a favorite they are over the rest of the league by a near unanimous amount. That is what I said.

northsider
01-24-2012, 06:42 PM
I still think Lebron is having a very very very good MVP season but, it will be underwhelming if with all the hype around the Heat once again they don't acquire the 1 seed although the shortened season IMO kind of negates that sort of thinking.

If he keeps this up it will be hard even for the biggest hater to say he doesn't deserve it.

Htownballa1622
01-24-2012, 06:46 PM
I never said he was playing bad nor did I say his numbers weren't the best. What I did say is that he doesn't deserve MVP if the Heat aren't the top seed considering how much a favorite they are over the rest of the league by a near unanimous amount. That is what I said.

So if they finish with the 3rd seed behind Chicago and Philly and are separated by 6 games. Who wins MVP? And lets say Durant plays well but Russel westbrook had an amazing post all start break run leading their team.

Htownballa1622
01-24-2012, 06:47 PM
I still think Lebron is having a very very very good MVP season but, it will be underwhelming if with all the hype around the Heat once again they don't acquire the 1 seed although the shortened season IMO kind of negates that sort of thinking.

If he keeps this up it will be hard even for the biggest hater to say he doesn't deserve it.

That's all i'm saying

JordansBulls
01-24-2012, 06:52 PM
So if they finish with the 3rd seed behind Chicago and Philly and are separated by 6 games. Who wins MVP? And lets say Durant plays well but Russel westbrook had an amazing post all start break run leading their team.

Durant was already the favorite to win mvp at the beginning of the year and the Thunder finishing #1 in the West will be the icing on the cake. Lebron will finish high and shouldn't finish lower than 3rd no matter what seed the Heat are, but he won't win MVP if the Heat aren't 1st. The thought process would be how could he lead the Cavs to the top seed two years in a row and now with 2 other allstars on his team and one being a top 5 player can he not lead them to the top spot.

Htownballa1622
01-24-2012, 06:58 PM
Durant was already the favorite to win mvp at the beginning of the year and the Thunder finishing #1 in the West will be the icing on the cake. Lebron will finish high and shouldn't finish lower than 3rd no matter what seed the Heat are, but he won't win MVP if the Heat aren't 1st. The thought process would be how could he lead the Cavs to the top seed two years in a row and now with 2 other allstars on his team and one being a top 5 player can he not lead them to the top spot.

I guess we shall see but your reasoning is flawed.

MVP so far has been Lebron.regardless of team record.

JordansBulls
01-24-2012, 07:15 PM
I guess we shall see but your reasoning is flawed.

MVP so far has been Lebron.regardless of team record.

Not really flawed, just the way it has normally been with the exception of a few times. If you gave MVP to whomever had the best numbers, then MJ, Kareem and Wilt would all have 8-9 MVP's and Shaq 5 MVP's.

Htownballa1622
01-24-2012, 07:31 PM
Not really flawed, just the way it has normally been with the exception of a few times. If you gave MVP to whomever had the best numbers, then MJ, Kareem and Wilt would all have 8-9 MVP's and Shaq 5 MVP's.

Exactly. Flawed. You're just like an MVP voter which is why someone like Derrick rose win last year over Dwight.

SteBO
01-24-2012, 08:02 PM
Not really flawed, just the way it has normally been with the exception of a few times. If you gave MVP to whomever had the best numbers, then MJ, Kareem and Wilt would all have 8-9 MVP's and Shaq 5 MVP's.
It's interesting you bring that up, because 9 idiots left LeBron off their MVP ballots completely. This has nothing to do with statistics or actually basketball analysis anymore, it's about lobbying for the "likeable" superstar in the league to go along with the media-hyped guy. The MVP award has become an absolute joke, even though I'm a big advocate for Rose winning it last year. He spurred his team to greater heights than expected.

Swashcuff
01-24-2012, 08:57 PM
JB's "criteria" cracks me up every single time. :laugh2:

It's so extremely flawed :pity:

KB-Pau-DH2012
01-24-2012, 09:07 PM
I really think league MVP should be a combination of the record you are leading your team with your individual stats as well as which candidate isn't just throwing up "empty numbers" that can't be translated to the postseason.

For example, LeBron got MVP in 2009 & 2010, but failed to deliver in the playoffs. I think a combination of that and joining Wade and Bosh in Miami hurt any chances of him getting MVP in 2011.

FOr Derrick Rose, great regular season in 2011, but was putrid and choked in ECF against Miami.


I think the fact that the Bulls had the best overall record in the NBA and were still 3 wins away from reaching the Finals (when they should've put a bigger fight in the ECF) should in retrospect hurt Rose's MVP stock heading into this season, despite the fact that he's having a worthy season. But I think last yr's playoff failure with the combo of sitting out games due to turf toe injury will make it hard for him to repeat as league MVP, even if Bulls end up with best overall record for 2nd straight season.


There should be a "well this guy can probably do even better in the playoffs, where the intensity and pressure is 10x higher than the regular season" when determining an MVP candidate. THere has to be more meaning to the award in that regard I think.

Swashcuff
01-24-2012, 09:16 PM
I really think league MVP should be a combination of the record you are leading your team with your individual stats as well as which candidate isn't just throwing up "empty numbers" that can't be translated to the postseason.

For example, LeBron got MVP in 2009 & 2010, but failed to deliver in the playoffs. I think a combination of that and joining Wade and Bosh in Miami hurt any chances of him getting MVP in 2011.

FOr Derrick Rose, great regular season in 2011, but was putrid and choked in ECF against Miami.


I think the fact that the Bulls had the best overall record in the NBA and were still 3 wins away from reaching the Finals (when they should've put a bigger fight in the ECF) should in retrospect hurt Rose's MVP stock heading into this season, despite the fact that he's having a worthy season. But I think last yr's playoff failure with the combo of sitting out games due to turf toe injury will make it hard for him to repeat as league MVP, even if Bulls end up with best overall record for 2nd straight season.


There should be a "well this guy can probably do even better in the playoffs, where the intensity and pressure is 10x higher than the regular season" when determining an MVP candidate. THere has to be more meaning to the award in that regard I think.

:confused:

You do realize this is a T.E.A.M. game right and not being able to win it all in a final does not fall solely on the shoulders of the reigning MVP but rather on that of the T.E.A.M.

Rose had little offensive help last season what did you expect of him? He came up against the best perimeter defensive team in the league and was guarded by one of the best perimeter defenders in the game, for any wing player in the league over the past decade that's what you call a recipe for poor production.

Performing badly in the prior post season has no bearing nor should it have any bearing on the following MVP especially with the examples that you gave.

KB-Pau-DH2012
01-24-2012, 09:26 PM
:confused:

You do realize this is a T.E.A.M. game right and not being able to win it all in a final does not fall solely on the shoulders of the reigning MVP but rather on that of the T.E.A.M.

Rose had little offensive help last season what did you expect of him? He came up against the best perimeter defensive team in the league and was guarded by one of the best perimeter defenders in the game, for any wing player in the league over the past decade that's what you call a recipe for poor production.

Performing badly in the prior post season has no bearing nor should it have any bearing on the following MVP especially with the examples that you gave.

I understand, but I think the league and media people look bad with their choice of MVP and the award itself gets a bit tarnished when the recipient of that award doesn't come as close as you would think to leading a team to a championship, or even to the finals. Let's look at the track record of past MVP recipients, post Jordan era.



1999 (50-game season): Karl Malone
-Jazz get eliminated in 2nd rd to Blazers 4-2 (BAD)

2000: Shaq
-CHAMPIONSHIP (GOOD)

2001: Iverson
-76ers lose to Lakers in NBA Finals 4-1 (GOOD)

2002: Duncan
-Spurs get swept by Lakers in 2nd rd 4-0 (BAD)

2003: Duncan
-CHAMPIONSHIP (GOOD)

2004: KG
-Lose to Lakers in WCF 4-2 (Okay)

2005: Nash
-Lose to Spurs in WCF 4-1 (Okay)

2006: Nash
-Lose to Mavs in WCF 4-2 (Okay)


2007: Dirk
-Lose in 1st rd to Warriors 4-2 (BAD)


2008: Kobe
-Lose to Celtics in NBA Finals 4-2 (GOOD)


2009: Lebron
-Lose to Orlando in ECF 4-2 (Okay)


2010: Lebron
-Lose to Boston in 2nd rd 4-2 (BAD)


2011: DRose
-Lose to Heat in ECF 4-1 (Okay)


I know it's hard to predict, but I think the award only looks good when the recipient can at least lead his team to the finals. There has to be some sense of potentiality. Otherwise, the league MVP award becomes an "empty" award at the end of the day.

Swashcuff
01-24-2012, 10:06 PM
I understand, but I think the league and media people look bad with their choice of MVP and the award itself gets a bit tarnished when the recipient of that award doesn't come as close as you would think to leading a team to a championship, or even to the finals. Let's look at the track record of past MVP recipients, post Jordan era.



1999 (50-game season): Utah Jazz
-Jazz get eliminated in 2nd rd to Blazers 4-2 (BAD)

2000: Los Angeles Lakers
-CHAMPIONSHIP (GOOD)

2001: Philadelphia 76ers
-76ers lose to Lakers in NBA Finals 4-1 (GOOD)

2002: San Antonio Spurs
-Spurs get swept by Lakers in 2nd rd 4-0 (BAD)

2003: San Antonio Spurs
-CHAMPIONSHIP (GOOD)

2004: Minnesota Timberwolves
-Lose to Lakers in WCF 4-2 (Okay)

2005: Phoenix Suns
-Lose to Spurs in WCF 4-1 (Okay)

2006: Phoenix Suns
-Lose to Mavs in WCF 4-2 (Okay)


2007: Dallas Mavericks
-Lose in 1st rd to Warriors 4-2 (BAD)


2008: Los Angeles Lakers
-Lose to Celtics in NBA Finals 4-2 (GOOD)


2009: Cleveland Cavaliers
-Lose to Orlando in ECF 4-2 (Okay)


2010: Cleveland Cavaliers
-Lose to Boston in 2nd rd 4-2 (BAD)


2011: Chicago Bulls
-Lose to Heat in ECF 4-1 (Okay)


I know it's hard to predict, but I think the award only looks good when the recipient can at least lead his team to the finals. There has to be some sense of potentiality. Otherwise, the league MVP award becomes an "empty" award at the end of the day.

Thought I'd fix that for you. Again as I reiterate this is a TEAM game. What is so hard to understand about that?

Had the Lakers not made that trade for Gasol in 08 do they make the Finals? NO. Does that make Kobe less of a player or him less worthy of being the MVP? Hell No! He was a great player regardless.

Your logic is beyond flawed and it lacks any context. You're not even dissecting situation by situation to gain an understanding as to why players were or were not more successful in the post season.

I am really confused as to why you'd look at it like this when this is a team game. A team game. A TEAM game.

What if the 76ers, Pacers, Nuggets and the Jazz are the final 4 teams left this off season. Do one of their players deserve the MVP over Durant, Rose, Kobe or LeBron?

Chronz
01-24-2012, 11:24 PM
I think this is leaving out the most important stat though: winning games.
What does this mean? If its the most important stat then why wasnt Manu ahead of Bron/Dwight in the MVP ranks? Obviously its not the most important stat or else the team with the best record would always have the MVP.

We both KNOW its about a players individual level of play, with his team winning being part of the equation, just like any other.


I don't care if Lebron breaks records for the best statistical year ever, if the Heat stay in 5th in the Eastern conference Lebron won't deserve to be MVP. It's a little different for Orlando because Dwight doesn't have the same type of help, but Orlando would still have to have a relatively good record. The bottom line is how do you help your team win games. If Chicago would easily win the East and Indiana would come in 2nd, I feel pretty confident that Rose would finish ahead of any other player in the East for MVP.
Agree to disagree

Chronz
01-24-2012, 11:31 PM
Personally Chronz while you may claim you don't, you seem to always be a underhanded critique Rose's game quite often and if I didn't know better you seem to enjoy putting Rose down. You can disagree and that's fine but, just my take on it. As his 3rd year and 2nd year starting I would say for such a young kid he had a damn phenomenal season. He did allot of things people kept knocking him for like his defensive play as well as having a perimeter shot until it slowed on him a bit in the second half.
All this can be true, but we have different standards. Him winning the MVP with what I dont consider to be a historic season brings down the validity of the award to me, much the same when AI won it, and when Unseld won it. But thats just me and a few others.


For the second part not sure if you are referring to this year or last year. However if you think NO intangibles favored Rose then I feel I am prob. talking to a wall. I thought both of them had great seasons but, honestly in a close race the fact that Rose was part of the 1 seed over 2 teams picked to finish well ahead of him was a damn good tie breaker.

While I do think an interesting narrative plays a role in the voting, I dont agree with it. Thats essentially crediting him for people not knowing how good his team/coach truly was going in.

Greet
01-25-2012, 12:04 AM
I haven't read the thread, but seriously what do you guys define as an MVP?

bulldog312
01-25-2012, 12:05 AM
What does this mean? If its the most important stat then why wasnt Manu ahead of Bron/Dwight in the MVP ranks? Obviously its not the most important stat or else the team with the best record would always have the MVP.

We both KNOW its about a players individual level of play, with his team winning being part of the equation, just like any other.


Agree to disagree

You are being difficult just to be difficult. You know I'm not saying the team with the best record should have the MVP. It's about the impact a player has on winning games. A lot of this is shown in stats, yes, but some of it isn't. For example, making your teammates around you better is important. Manu's team may have had a better record, but he clearly didn't have the impact that Lebron or Dwight did. Rose may have not have had the best stats last year, but he won MVP because he was able to make his teammates better and had a bigger impact in actually winning games.


Also, @KB-Pau-DH2012, how a player performed in previous years or in the post season should not be a factor whatsoever. It's not a career award and it's not a post season award. The current regular season is the only thing that should be in consideration.

bulldog312
01-25-2012, 12:08 AM
I haven't read the thread, but seriously what do you guys define as an MVP?

The player whose team would lose the most amount of wins if they hadn't been on it.

Raph12
01-25-2012, 03:45 AM
Lebron should win if he keeps it up, but I doubt he will (bad games like tonight may happen more often)... As for Rose, unless he starts ballin' like atleast a Top 5 player statistically, he isn't winning it ever again.

SportsAndrew25
01-25-2012, 10:59 AM
1) Lebron James
2) Derrick Rose
3) Kevin Durant
4) Kobe Bryant
5) Chris Paul/Blake Griffin

MagicHero3
01-25-2012, 11:16 AM
1) Lebron James
2) Derrick Rose
3) Kevin Durant
4) Kobe Bryant
5) Chris Paul/Blake Griffin

lets fix this... bc i dont see any reason blake griffin should even get mentioned with all the other talent...
Also, Rose has been hurt the passed week or 2... so knock him down... Kobe is the reason his team wins any game, so hes above Drose...
Now lets look at stats... K-Love is dominant on the boards and scoring...gotta love that double threat.

1) Lebron James
2) Kevin Durant
3) Kobe Bryant
4) Dwight Howard
5) Kevin Love

Baller1
01-25-2012, 02:13 PM
I'm not trying to hate on Rose whatsoever, but he should not even sniff the top 5 at this point in the season. Look at the numbers, look at the team without him, and look at the Bulls defense.

The Bulls having the best record in the league should not automatically thrust him into the top 5.

northsider
01-25-2012, 03:27 PM
I'm not trying to hate on Rose whatsoever, but he should not even sniff the top 5 at this point in the season. Look at the numbers, look at the team without him, and look at the Bulls defense.

The Bulls having the best record in the league should not automatically thrust him into the top 5.

God you're such a hater!!!!! lol

I agree completely and honestly could care less if he wins or even is in the running. Whatever level of play he is at right now and was at last year is completely fine with me whether it is MVP worthy or not the kid is a star.

Raph12
01-25-2012, 03:48 PM
I'm not trying to hate on Rose whatsoever, but he should not even sniff the top 5 at this point in the season. Look at the numbers, look at the team without him, and look at the Bulls defense.

The Bulls having the best record in the league should not automatically thrust him into the top 5.

I agree.

Like I said, after what transpired last season, until Rose plays like a top 5 player statistically, he won't have a shot at MVP anymore.

JordansBulls
01-25-2012, 04:00 PM
I'm not trying to hate on Rose whatsoever, but he should not even sniff the top 5 at this point in the season. Look at the numbers, look at the team without him, and look at the Bulls defense.

The Bulls having the best record in the league should not automatically thrust him into the top 5.

Durant doesn't even lead his team in Win Shares or WS/PER 48 minutes while Rose has missed 5 games and still leads the Bulls in both.

Htownballa1622
01-25-2012, 05:24 PM
Durant doesn't even lead his team in Win Shares or WS/PER 48 minutes while Rose has missed 5 games and still leads the Bulls in both.

But are you really trying to compare the two?

Chronz
01-25-2012, 06:16 PM
You are being difficult just to be difficult. You know I'm not saying the team with the best record should have the MVP
Then there is no point in saying wins is the most important stat when you cant boil it down to a stat.


It's about the impact a player has on winning games. A lot of this is shown in stats, yes, but some of it isn't.
Yes, which is why I said, Bron and Dwight arent just the games most productive players, they happen to be its premier defenders. Both are oozing intangibles.


For example, making your teammates around you better is important. Manu's team may have had a better record, but he clearly didn't have the impact that Lebron or Dwight did. Rose may have not have had the best stats last year,
Exactly, same thing with Rose vs Bron/Dwight. Rose's teams had the best record, but he clearly didnt have the impact that Bron or Dwight did.


but he won MVP because he was able to make his teammates better and had a bigger impact in actually winning games.
Can you prove any of this? Where is this proof of higher impact? Hes not the better offensive player, hes not the better defender, he hasnt proven hes anywhere near them in terms of leading his team, hes definitely not in the same league as overall impact as these 2 way beasts..

Also when you say hes making his teammates better, who are you comparing him to and where is your proof? Sure Rose makes his teammates better vs his backup or your typical PG, but compared to say Deron Williams, Im not seeing a guy whos THAT good at making others better.

JordansBulls
01-25-2012, 06:46 PM
Then there is no point in saying wins is the most important stat when you cant boil it down to a stat.


Yes, which is why I said, Bron and Dwight arent just the games most productive players, they happen to be its premier defenders. Both are oozing intangibles.


Exactly, same thing with Rose vs Bron/Dwight. Rose's teams had the best record, but he clearly didnt have the impact that Bron or Dwight did.


Can you prove any of this? Where is this proof of higher impact? Hes not the better offensive player, hes not the better defender, he hasnt proven hes anywhere near them in terms of leading his team, hes definitely not in the same league as overall impact as these 2 way beasts..

Also when you say hes making his teammates better, who are you comparing him to and where is your proof? Sure Rose makes his teammates better vs his backup or your typical PG, but compared to say Deron Williams, Im not seeing a guy whos THAT good at making others better.

Well truth be told he won gold medal on his first try, while it took those guys 3 tries to win gold. Not to mention was the only allstar on his team.

Raph12
01-25-2012, 07:09 PM
Well truth be told he won gold medal on his first try, while it took those guys 3 tries to win gold. Not to mention was the only allstar on his team.

Actually Dwight won on his first try (08 Olympics), not that it really means anything... Rose wasn't even near being the best player on that team in 2010, not even close.

Being the only allstar on his team is a flawed arguement, if he was truly a great PG, he'd make players on his team look like much better than they are. DWill made Boozer an allstar, hell he made him look so good that you guys signed him to a huge deal. Lebron made MoWill look like an AS, Dwight made Nelson/Shard look like allstars, etc, etc... Great players make their teammates look better than they are, the Bulls looked great even without Rose, he needs to work on his passing/shooting/off-ball game so that he could take his game to the next level.

Ovratd1up
01-25-2012, 08:49 PM
Not that I disagree too much, but at the same time it is worth noting that Rose's WS/48 of .245 is good for 6th in the league (2nd among those who play more than 33 minutes), his ast% of 39.7 is 7th, and he's actually been solid efficiency wise (TS% of .561) despite playing injured in some games. While the Bulls are 4-1 without him, it was against some bad teams; the Bulls are 12-2 with Rose in more competitive games.

JordansBulls
01-25-2012, 09:25 PM
Actually Dwight won on his first try (08 Olympics), not that it really means anything... Rose wasn't even near being the best player on that team in 2010, not even close.

Being the only allstar on his team is a flawed arguement, if he was truly a great PG, he'd make players on his team look like much better than they are. DWill made Boozer an allstar, hell he made him look so good that you guys signed him to a huge deal. Lebron made MoWill look like an AS, Dwight made Nelson/Shard look like allstars, etc, etc... Great players make their teammates look better than they are, the Bulls looked great even without Rose, he needs to work on his passing/shooting/off-ball game so that he could take his game to the next level.

Dwight was on the 2006 FIBA team as well that ended up with bronze.

And Dwill didn't make Boozer look good, Boozer made Dwill look good. Boozer was an allstar in 2007 and 2008, Dwill didn't make it until 2 years after.

northsider
01-25-2012, 09:57 PM
Actually Dwight won on his first try (08 Olympics), not that it really means anything... Rose wasn't even near being the best player on that team in 2010, not even close.

Being the only allstar on his team is a flawed arguement, if he was truly a great PG, he'd make players on his team look like much better than they are. DWill made Boozer an allstar, hell he made him look so good that you guys signed him to a huge deal. Lebron made MoWill look like an AS, Dwight made Nelson/Shard look like allstars, etc, etc... Great players make their teammates look better than they are, the Bulls looked great even without Rose, he needs to work on his passing/shooting/off-ball game so that he could take his game to the next level.

Yes Rose is clearly hindering those guys games and not elevating that team. Nelson and Dwight still play together and Nelson does not look like an as at all. When you say next level you act as if Rose plays some common form of ball when in reality he is one of the most dominant ing players in the league bar none. However keep nit picking I would imagine if he did improve all of things which really aren't bad you would go on to the next reason.

So when a teammate makes the AS team it is a direct result of the actual star of that team and has nothing to do with the possibility of their individual play. Dwight is a center not a PG.

northsider
01-25-2012, 10:04 PM
Then there is no point in saying wins is the most important stat when you cant boil it down to a stat.


Yes, which is why I said, Bron and Dwight arent just the games most productive players, they happen to be its premier defenders. Both are oozing intangibles.


Exactly, same thing with Rose vs Bron/Dwight. Rose's teams had the best record, but he clearly didnt have the impact that Bron or Dwight did.


Can you prove any of this? Where is this proof of higher impact? Hes not the better offensive player, hes not the better defender, he hasnt proven hes anywhere near them in terms of leading his team, hes definitely not in the same league as overall impact as these 2 way beasts..

Also when you say hes making his teammates better, who are you comparing him to and where is your proof? Sure Rose makes his teammates better vs his backup or your typical PG, but compared to say Deron Williams, Im not seeing a guy whos THAT good at making others better.


Ahhahahahahahaha so you ask for proof that Rose is a leader and then excuse any reason to explain how the other 2 are. If you can't see it in his demeanor and play then as I said earlier your agenda is all to obvious. It baffles that you say things regarding unmeasurable intangibles and act as if your opinion means fact. I will never be shocked at your attempts to strengthen your arguments.

Greet
01-25-2012, 11:49 PM
Dwight was on the 2006 FIBA team as well that ended up with bronze.

And Dwill didn't make Boozer look good, Boozer made Dwill look good. Boozer was an allstar in 2007 and 2008, Dwill didn't make it until 2 years after.

lol...Boozer made DWill look good?

Also Dwight and Bron both took a team of scrubs to the finals.

JordansBulls
01-25-2012, 11:58 PM
lol...Boozer made DWill look good?

Also Dwight and Bron both took a team of scrubs to the finals.

Dwight maybe did, but the next year when he had more talent he didn't even get back to the finals. Lebron when he had more talent didn't even get back until he had superstar talent that was a proven winner.

Anyway, Durant is going to win MVP and Lebron will probably finish 2nd.

Chronz
01-26-2012, 02:08 AM
Ahhahahahahahaha so you ask for proof that Rose is a leader and then excuse any reason to explain how the other 2 are.
Wouldnt you if the guys your supporting have proven more?


If you can't see it in his demeanor and play then as I said earlier your agenda is all to obvious.
My point flew over your head, Im asking for your proof that hes a better leader, not that he isnt one to begin with.


It baffles that you say things regarding unmeasurable intangibles and act as if your opinion means fact. I will never be shocked at your attempts to strengthen your arguments.
Ive made no attempts, Ive only asked you to defend yours. See all those questions I laid out, yea those were legit Q's youve chosen to ignore.

When it comes to debating the intangibles you will find that lots of people will have differing opinions from yours and that you shouldnt take them questioning you as them enforcing their beliefs on you. You see unlike tangible evidence, we have no data to point to. So I HAVE to ask how you came to that conclusion.

Chronz
01-26-2012, 02:10 AM
Well truth be told he won gold medal on his first try, while it took those guys 3 tries to win gold. Not to mention was the only allstar on his team.
Truth be told, that doesnt mean anything. Tim Duncan couldnt bring back the gold and I would never question his leadership, even if he swore he would never play FIBA again I dont think any less of him.

naps
01-26-2012, 02:27 AM
Well truth be told he won gold medal on his first try, while it took those guys 3 tries to win gold.

Well, truth be told, Rose was a non factor in that tournament. Kevin Durant led us to the gold, not Rose. Just like Wade led us to olympic gold in 2008; No one is gonna say Michael Red won that gold in 2008. Rose was Michael Red/Prince (2008) of 2010 team.



Not to mention was the only allstar on his team.

All-star count doesn't make your team. Bulls are an ELITE team even without Rose. They have been thrashing teams without Rose. Your argument is flawed.

Raph12
01-26-2012, 02:30 AM
Dwight was on the 2006 FIBA team as well that ended up with bronze.

And Dwill didn't make Boozer look good, Boozer made Dwill look good. Boozer was an allstar in 2007 and 2008, Dwill didn't make it until 2 years after.

I thought you meant Olymics, but w/e... So you're telling me VC is better than Duncan? Weak/flawed arguement.

DWill made Boozer look better than DRose has/can and I'm glad you didn't mention Lebron or Dwight making their teammates look better.


Yes Rose is clearly hindering those guys games and not elevating that team. Nelson and Dwight still play together and Nelson does not look like an as at all. When you say next level you act as if Rose plays some common form of ball when in reality he is one of the most dominant ing players in the league bar none. However keep nit picking I would imagine if he did improve all of things which really aren't bad you would go on to the next reason.

So when a teammate makes the AS team it is a direct result of the actual star of that team and has nothing to do with the possibility of their individual play. Dwight is a center not a PG.

Hedo without Dwight (Toronto, Phoenix) = garbage
Shard without Dwight (Washington) = garbage
Alston without Dwight (NJ then gone) = garbage

I can keep going, great players make their teammates look better than they actually are and guys like Dwight and Lebron do that for their teammates on both ends of the floor.

He's a good scorer for a PG, but his passing/off-ball game needs a lot of work if he wants to take his game to the next level (among the elite players) and so does his decision-making.

giants73756
01-26-2012, 02:32 AM
never mind lol

lavilevi23
01-26-2012, 02:47 AM
Well, truth be told, Rose was a non factor in that tournament. Kevin Durant led us to the gold, not Rose. Just like Wade led us to olympic gold in 2008; No one is gonna say Michael Red won that gold in 2008. Rose was Michael Red/Prince (2008) of 2010 team.



All-star count doesn't make your team. Bulls are an ELITE team even without Rose. They have been thrashing teams without Rose. Your argument is flawed.

This

KB-Pau-DH2012
01-26-2012, 02:50 AM
Well, truth be told, Rose was a non factor in that tournament. Kevin Durant led us to the gold, not Rose. Just like Wade led us to olympic gold in 2008; No one is gonna say Michael Red won that gold in 2008. Rose was Michael Red/Prince (2008) of 2010 team.



All-star count doesn't make your team. Bulls are an ELITE team even without Rose. They have been thrashing teams without Rose. Your argument is flawed.

And who showed up offensively (scoring and creating for others) and defensively (getting stops) when it mattered most in the gold medal game against Spain. Especially down the stretch in the 4th when Spain closed the gap?

JordansBulls
01-26-2012, 09:15 AM
Well, truth be told, Rose was a non factor in that tournament. Kevin Durant led us to the gold, not Rose. Just like Wade led us to olympic gold in 2008; No one is gonna say Michael Red won that gold in 2008. Rose was Michael Red/Prince (2008) of 2010 team.



All-star count doesn't make your team. Bulls are an ELITE team even without Rose. They have been thrashing teams without Rose. Your argument is flawed.

And the Heat won a title without Lebron where Wade was on the team, your argument is flawed. Fact of the matter it took them 3 tries to win gold medal. And don't use Redd, he was never a guy who was good enough to win league mvp. We are talking about guys who have won league mvp or are good enough to do so.

northsider
01-26-2012, 03:53 PM
Wouldnt you if the guys your supporting have proven more?


My point flew over your head, Im asking for your proof that hes a better leader, not that he isnt one to begin with.


Ive made no attempts, Ive only asked you to defend yours. See all those questions I laid out, yea those were legit Q's youve chosen to ignore.

When it comes to debating the intangibles you will find that lots of people will have differing opinions from yours and that you shouldnt take them questioning you as them enforcing their beliefs on you. You see unlike tangible evidence, we have no data to point to. So I HAVE to ask how you came to that conclusion.


In terms of proven more and debating leadership I feel that the only thing have done is been in the league longer (meaning in due time he will attain the same success). I agree their resumes speak volumes in itself however correct me if I am wrong neither led their teams to a ECF in their third year. You can say Rose also had the better team in place which is fair but, its hard to say where each team would of been had the team been a little bit better or a little bit worse.

If I had to answer why I thought I viewed him as a leader is just his demeanor on and off the court. Loves the ball in crunch time, has been very successful in crunch time, always is willing to take the blames as much as the success, looks to improve and has no issues calling out his own game, finds small flaws that most would disregard, his passion for the game is unquestioned. After growing up watching Jordan play really only a few players have gave me that same feeling and that would be Kobe, DWade, James, Melo (this is my list so no one pay any mind to it). Now I add Rose to that list. No I am not comparing all 4 but, am saying that feeling of ability over anyone on the court to take over no matter the circumstance, time in game, or what it is you are asking these guys find ways to get it done in rapid succession and not just glimpses every once in a while.

KB-Pau-DH2012
01-26-2012, 03:54 PM
After last night's Laker-Clipper game, I gotta go with MWP for MVP! ;)

naps
01-26-2012, 04:12 PM
And the Heat won a title without Lebron where Wade was on the team, your argument is flawed.

What does this have to with what we are talking about?



Fact of the matter it took them 3 tries to win gold medal. And don't use Redd, he was never a guy who was good enough to win league mvp. We are talking about guys who have won league mvp or are good enough to do so.


And Rose was not MVP in 2010. What are you talking about? He was nowhere to be found in that tournament. You made it sound like Rose led to the gold which is absolutely rubbish. It was a Kevin Durant show throughtout the tournament.

naps
01-26-2012, 04:15 PM
And who showed up offensively (scoring and creating for others) and defensively (getting stops) when it mattered most in the gold medal game against Spain. Especially down the stretch in the 4th when Spain closed the gap?

Wade was the best player in the Olympics. If you didn't know that it's pointless talking about this. Believe whatever makes you happy. Do not take this thread off-topic please.

KB-Pau-DH2012
01-26-2012, 04:28 PM
Wade was the best player in the Olympics. If you didn't know that it's pointless talking about this. Believe whatever makes you happy. Do not take this thread off-topic please.

Wade was the best player offensively head and shoulders for the tournament, Kobe was the best player defensively head and shoulders for the tournament, but KB shined in the toughest and most battle-tested game of the Olympics offensively and defensively, the Gold Medal game against Spain.

Apologize for taking it off-topic, just thought I'd point that out.

theheatles
01-26-2012, 07:09 PM
this thread has way too much of derrick rose when he shouldn't be in the top 5 for mvp consideration...top 5 should look like...

1. LeBron



2. Kobe
3. Dwight
4. Durant
5. LaMarcus Aldridge

KB-Pau-DH2012
01-26-2012, 07:14 PM
this thread has way too much of derrick rose when he shouldn't be in the top 5 for mvp consideration...top 5 should look like...

1. LeBron



2. Kobe
3. Dwight
4. Durant
5. LaMarcus Aldridge


Correction

1. LeBron
2. KD (right on LeBron's cottails)-more efficient than last yr, rebounding better and best record in the league.


3. Kobe
4. Dwight

5. Rose (turf toe injury will hinder him from doing better than last yr)

Baller1
01-26-2012, 07:54 PM
Correction

1. LeBron
2. KD (right on LeBron's cottails)-more efficient than last yr, rebounding better and best record in the league.


3. Kobe
4. Dwight

5. Rose (turf toe injury will hinder him from doing better than last yr)

Perfectly put. Thank you.

Ovratd1up
01-26-2012, 09:00 PM
Even though Durant has played excellent ball and is nearly a lock to remain top 2, I still can't accept Dwight outside of the top 2. And this year Lebron's been dominant enough to earn the top spot with some ease. Those two for different reasons appear like they'll be forever underrated in terms of value, while Kobe is overrated despite his brilliance. Lebron/Dwight/Durant are the top three in my opinion.

Monta is beast
01-26-2012, 11:50 PM
gotta be LeBron

KB-Pau-DH2012
01-27-2012, 12:05 AM
Dwight's MVP stock just went down this week. 2 losses to Boston in 2 different brutal ways, and a not so great foul-trouble game against Indiana.

Monta is beast
01-27-2012, 12:10 AM
That^

cutiepie80
01-27-2012, 05:16 AM
Sorry, with bosh playing pretty much flawless lebron shouldn't be in the mix. Durant is #1 right now.

Howard, if he was a mvp canidate he could get his team from collapsing a 27 point lead instead of getting technical fouls when it matters most.

That's my reasoning for Durant.

Rose is out, he actually has a nice cast to work with and doesn't have to do it himself. Nowitski looks a lot older this year. Kobe....well if you get to shoot 45 times a game you'll put up points.

Crop dust juice?

Monta is beast
01-27-2012, 05:18 AM
LeBron is absolutely the MVP right now. He is putting up near 30 points, 8 rebounds, and 8 assist.

naps
01-27-2012, 06:19 AM
Even though Durant has played excellent ball and is nearly a lock to remain top 2, I still can't accept Dwight outside of the top 2. And this year Lebron's been dominant enough to earn the top spot with some ease. Those two for different reasons appear like they'll be forever underrated in terms of value, while Kobe is overrated despite his brilliance. Lebron/Dwight/Durant are the top three in my opinion.

Agreed. Kobe is having a beastly season statistically but considering Lakers are currently 7th in the west at 11-8 record, he has no business in top 5.

basketfan4life
01-27-2012, 08:05 AM
Durant doesn't even lead his team in Win Shares or WS/PER 48 minutes while Rose has missed 5 games and still leads the Bulls in both.

WTF does still leading ws mean when your team is still winning w/o you?

CHANGO
01-27-2012, 05:36 PM
Is Lebron...


LeBron taking control

Jan. 27 -- Watching LeBron James step to the line and calmly knock down six straight free throws to secure the Miami Heat's Video comeback win on the road against the Detroit Pistons Wednesday night was impressive, especially with talk of his inability to step up and finish games.

So, it wasn't against the Bulls or the Lakers and it wasn't in The Finals. Practice makes perfect, folks. And if the work James has put in through the quarter pole of this season is any indication, his taking over the top spot in this week's KIA Race to the MVP Ladder could be the start of a season-long affair with the No. 1 spot.

He's playing at a preposterously high level. If your eyes aren't good enough to tell you that, check his advanced stats. Those numbers are soaring even by James' own ridiculously high standards.

James is leading the Heat during the dog days of this abbreviated season by playing the best all-around basketball of any player in the league. And he's doing it without the aid of Dwyane Wade, who has missed six straight games with an ankle injury. The Heat's 5-1 record during that stretch is a testament to the play of James and Chris Bosh, who has been splendid during this stretch as well.

But there is no doubt that it all starts with James and his relentless assaults on the opposition from every angle.

He's dominating teams in every facet, averaging 29.1 points, 8.0 rebounds, 7.1 assists and 2.1 steals a night while shooting 54 percent and an absurd (for a career 33 percent shooter from long range) 41 percent from 3-point range. Now that he's shooting them again, James has found his stroke, making 11-of-22 from deep over the past seven games.

If James keeps up this otherworldly pace, Wade can (and should) take as long as he needs to with that tender ankle.

-- SEKOU SMITH

The next five: Russell Westbrook, Oklahoma City Thunder; Chris Bosh, Miami Heat; Tony Parker, San Antonio Spurs; Blake Griffin, Los Angeles Clippers; Kyle Lowry, Houston Rockets.

Falling out: Dwyane Wade, Miami Heat; LaMarcus Aldridge, Portland Trail Blazers; Paul Millsap, Utah Jazz


http://www.nba.com/mvp-ladder/2011-12/index.html?ls=iref:nbahpt1

theheatles
01-27-2012, 07:22 PM
where does durant rank defensively on his own team? how often does durant guard the opposing teams #1?

Bullsfan22
01-28-2012, 12:14 AM
It's Lebron's award right now and I really don't have any hesitation coming to that conclusion. It just seems like psd is pushing KD as a close second when he's really not.

tredigs
01-28-2012, 12:20 AM
where does durant rank defensively on his own team? how often does durant guard the opposing teams #1?

He has their 2nd best defensive rating (a more important stat within a team than it is comparing to players on other teams) for what it's worth. And he'll guard their opposing SF on most occasions regardless of their talent level. But will step up against 2's and 4's from time to time.

He's a +defender, and probably an underrated one (kind of like Lebron spent years seen as a poor mid-range shooter although he's been top 3 mid-range in the league for years).

JordansBulls
01-28-2012, 12:41 AM
With the Bulls injury problems again this season if we finish 1st Rose can win it again.

Bullsfan22
01-28-2012, 12:53 AM
With the Bulls injury problems again this season if we finish 1st Rose can win it again.

I expect Rose's per game numbers to rise and he'll continue to be more efficient than he was last year. If we keep winning and Lebron's numbers drop as Wade gets healthy, I can see it happening.

Right now Lebron is creating gap between himself and the rest of the elites.

tredigs
01-28-2012, 12:53 AM
With the Bulls injury problems again this season if we finish 1st Rose can win it again.

Highly doubt that. His stats are monumentally sub-par for MVP candidate standards, he's no longer the hot story, and they're virtually just as good without him on a night to night basis. They'll likely give it to a top 5 player this year.

Kashmir13579
01-28-2012, 12:57 AM
Lebron.

Bullsfan22
01-28-2012, 01:08 AM
Highly doubt that. His stats are monumentally sub-par for MVP candidate standards, he's no longer the hot story, and they're virtually just as good without him on a night to night basis. They'll likely give it to a top 5 player this year.

What evidence do you have to support that ignorant claim?

A championship contending team suppose to do what the Bulls did in that stretch of games Rose was out. We beat up mediocre teams.

tredigs
01-28-2012, 01:42 AM
What evidence do you have to support that ignorant claim?

A championship contending team suppose to do what the Bulls did in that stretch of games Rose was out. We beat up mediocre teams.

You beat who you faced. They're an elite team with or without him, which draws moot the whole idea that X player has X amount of help "and D. Rose has no All-Star so he should be MVP". It's a dumb, kindergarten argument that we see here far too often.

Afridi786
01-28-2012, 01:45 AM
Durant or Lebron depending on the record at the end. Rose is a distant third.

Rosh
01-28-2012, 02:16 AM
and they're virtually just as good without him on a night to night basis.


Oh my goodness.

Nick O
01-28-2012, 02:18 AM
What do ya think? i was surprised to see david west in the top ten, . aswell surprised to see D12 ahead of KD.. Lawson at 8 was also kinda shocking o.o

1LeBron James : Miami Heat
LAST WK: 26.5 ppg | 8.3 rpg | 5.5 apg
James is doing what we all saw him do for years in Cleveland, carry a team to the top of the heap with an unrelenting ability to dominate games from basically every aspect. The Heat's 9-1 record without Dwyane Wade is impressive on its own. But James has been nothing short of brilliant in the way he has managed games by manning whatever position the Heat need him to on a given night to get the job done.
LAST WEEK'S GAMES & SEASON HIGLIGHTS
Clutch FTs hold off Pistons (Jan. 25)
Solid overall game vs. Cavs (Jan. 24)
Drops 28 points, 13 boards on Bucks (Jan. 22)
Leads rout of Sixers (Jan. 21)
> James' stats, bio & more
Leads comeback to top Spurs (Jan. 17)
Game-winning dish to Wade vs. Wolves (Dec. 30)
2Dwight Howard : Orlando Magic
LAST WK: 17.3 ppg | 15.5 rpg | 1.0 bpg
No player in the league is working under the sort of twisted scrutiny Howard is these days. And yet the big man continues to thrive, dragging the Magic along for the ride up the Eastern Conference standings. Howard dropped 21 points and 24 rebounds in a 12-point floor-wiping of the Lakers that should have silenced any lingering debate about the best big man in basketball, although two brutal losses to the Celtics will sting for a while. Staying out of foul trouble and on the floor is his biggest challenge.
LAST WEEK'S GAMES & SEASON HIGLIGHTS
Double-double as Magic falter vs. Celtics (Jan. 26)
Solid night, but Celts wax Magic (Jan. 23)
Has 21 points, 23 boards vs. Lakers (Jan. 20)
Makes team history in win over Pacers (Jan. 24)
> Howard's stats, bio & more
Becomes Orlando's all-time leading scorer
Circus shot against Bobcats
3Kevin Durant : Oklahoma City Thunder
LAST WK: 21.7 ppg | 9.0 rpg | 56.3 FG%
As steady as Durant has been through the first quarter of this season, he hasn't been his spectacular self recently. The Thunder continue to dominate the competition and yet Durant had just decent games, by his own high standard, in wins over New Jersey and Detroit. He struggled particularly from beyond the 3-point line in his most recent three games, going 0-for-9 from deep since last Saturday night. Still, the Thunder just keep on winning.
LAST WEEK'S GAMES & SEASON HIGLIGHTS
Stays hot as Thunder topple Hornets (Jan. 25)
Efficient scoring night paces rout (Jan. 23)
Has 20 points, 15 boards vs. Nets (Jan. 21)
> Durant's stats, bio & more
Clutch in win vs. Rockets (Jan. 7)
Game-winner vs. Mavs (Dec. 29)
See Durant's buzzer-beating 3-pointer (Dec. 29)
4Kobe Bryant : Los Angeles Lakers
LAST WK: 29.0 ppg | 6.0 rpg | 46.3 FG%
Three straight losses prior to Wednesday night's defeat of the Clippers clouded the fact that Bryant has been putting in work this month, averaging 32.3 points, 5.5 assists and 5.3 rebounds in his past 10 games. While the rest of the Lakers might have needed the wake up call at the Staples Center against the Clippers (and yes, we're talking about you Pau Gasol), Bryant has been wide awake and locked in for weeks.
LAST WEEK'S GAMES & SEASON HIGLIGHTS
Drops in 24 points against Clippers (Jan. 25)
Goes for 33, but Lakers lose to Pacers (Jan. 22)
Scores 30 in loss to Magic (Jan. 20)
> Bryant's stats, bio & more
Third-quarter outburst vs. Clips (Jan. 15)
Burns Cavs for 42 points (Jan. 13)
Scores 42 in loss to Clippers (Jan. 14)
Drops 40 on Jazz in overtime win (Jan. 11)
Season-high 48 points vs. Suns (Jan. 10)
5Derrick Rose : Chicago Bulls
LAST WK: 23.0 ppg | 4.0 rpg | 5.5 apg
Rose didn't look rusty at all in making his comeback from that four-game absence from resting his toe. The reigning MVP was in attack mode in a win over Deron Williams and the Nets and a rugged loss to the Pacers, the Bulls' first home loss of the season. Rose better be rested and ready for the road ahead, especially with Luol Deng shelved for the foreseeable future with a torn ligament in his left wrist.
LAST WEEK'S GAMES & SEASON HIGLIGHTS
Returns to lineup, scores 22 vs. Nets (Jan. 23)
Scores 24 as Bulls suffer first home loss (Jan. 25)
> Rose's stats, bio & more
Nails the over-the-shoulder shot in Boston
Scores 31 in road win against Wolves (Jan. 10)
Powers big comeback win against Hawks (Jan. 3)
Clinches Christmas Day win against Lakers (Dec. 25)
6Kevin Love : Minnesota Timberwolves
LAST WK: 25.5 ppg | 11 rpg | 44.4 FG%
Love had a monster start to his week with a buzzer-beating 3-pointer to knock off the Clippers, a 39-point, 12-rebound effort in a loss to Houston [/B]followed by 31 and 10 in a ring-night whipping of the reigning world champion Dallas Mavericks. Love unleashed his long game this week, too, connecting on nine of his 11 attempts from beyond the 3-point line in those two games. If he keeps this up he's going to stick around this list for a long time.
LAST WEEK'S GAMES & SEASON HIGLIGHTS
Key as Wolves spoil Mavs' ring night (Jan. 25)
Has 39 points in loss to Rockets (Jan. 23)
Struggles in loss to Jazz (Jan. 21)
Big night vs. Clips, Griffin (Jan. 20)
Love's game-winner vs. Clips (Jan. 20)
> Love's stats, bio & more
Season-best 34 points vs. Hornets (Jan. 13)
Love key as Wolves end skid vs. Spurs (Jan. 2)
Highlights from Love's night vs. Spurs
7Chris Paul : Los Angeles Clippers
LAST WK*: 11.0 ppg | 9.5 apg (2 gms)
Steve Kerr nailed it on last night's TNT broadcast of the Clippers-Grizzlies game when he called Paul a "world class game-closer." He then proved Kerr's point as he K.O.'d the Grizz down the stretch. The difference between the Clippers with Paul on the floor and the Clippers with Paul in street clothes is startling. An early 16-point lead was down to just two points in a matter of minutes without Paul on the floor. There is no accurate measure of what Paul means to the Clippers. That's why his ability to stay healthy is the key to their season.
LAST WEEK'S GAMES & SEASON HIGLIGHTS
Struggles offensively in loss to Lakers (Jan. 25)
Takes charge as Clips take down Grizz (Jan. 26)
> Paul's stats, bio & more
Scores 33 as Clippers take down Lakers (Jan. 14)
CP3's miraculous 3-pointer vs. Lakers
Leads way as Clips rally to top Heat (Jan. 11)
Has 20 points, nine assists in debut (Dec. 25)
Gets past Rose in one-on-one matchup
8Ty Lawson : Denver Nuggets
LAST WK: 14.0 ppg | 6.6 rpg | 5.3 apg
Whatever explanations people come up with for the Nuggets' success this season, and there are plenty of theories, they need to include the play of Lawson. He's been driving the bus for George Karl with a huge assist from veteran mentor/collaborator Andre Miller. Lawson's been an absolute nightmare for opposing teams this season on both ends of the floor and has an extra gear in traffic that triggers the Nuggets' up-tempo attack.
LAST WEEK'S GAMES & SEASON HIGLIGHTS
Injures ankle in blowout of Kings (Jan. 25)
Solid night in 2OT thriller vs. Knicks (Jan. 21)
Scores 21 as Nuggets halt Wizards (Jan. 20)
> Lawson's stats, bio & more
Nails circus shot against Bucks (Jan. 17)
Takes charge as Nuggets upset Heat (Jan. 13)
Fuels big comeback win vs. Lakers (Jan. 1)
9Rudy Gay : Memphis Grizzlies
LAST WK: 21.0 ppg | 5.6 rpg (5 gms)
Gay has maintained his scoring edge while having to work out of position on the defensive end (he was battling Blake Griffin on the low block last night) when the Grizzlies go with their small lineup, a byproduct of Zach Randolph's injury. To his credit, Gay seems to have embraced that challenge and all others in trying to lead the Grizzlies into the thick of things in the Western Conference.
LAST WEEK'S GAMES & SEASON HIGLIGHTS
Scores 24, but Grizz fall to Clippers (Jan. 26)
Rough night in blowout loss to Blazers (Jan. 24)
Powers Grizz to comeback win over Warriors (Jan. 23)
Leads Grizz in home rout of Kings (Jan. 21)
Drops in 24 points in win over Pistons (Jan. 20)
> Gay's stats, bio & more
Impressive windmill vs. Blazers (Jan. 24)
Outduels 'Melo, Knicks in Memphis (Jan. 12)
10David West : Indiana Pacers
LAST WK: 13.3 ppg | 6.5 rpg | 3.5 apg
The biggest difference between an upstart Pacers bunch from a year ago and the no-nonsense bunch we've seen this season is the presence of West on the block and in a locker room that needed a dose of veteran savvy. As rugged on defense as he has been steady on offense, West had 15 points, nine rebounds and four assists in a win over the Lakers Sunday and was fantastic defensively in a win over the Bulls Wednesday, finishing with 14 points, seven rebounds, four assists, three steals and two blocks.

Oh and here is their next 5 and who fell out of the top 10..

The next five: Russell Westbrook, Oklahoma City Thunder; Chris Bosh, Miami Heat; Tony Parker, San Antonio Spurs; Blake Griffin, Los Angeles Clippers; Kyle Lowry, Houston Rockets.

Falling out: Dwyane Wade, Miami Heat; LaMarcus Aldridge, Portland Trail Blazers; Paul Millsap, Utah Jazz

Mishmin
01-28-2012, 02:33 AM
David West? hmmmm I don't think so

Raps18-19 Champ
01-28-2012, 02:39 AM
These are horrible after the top 6.

Kingz4L
01-28-2012, 02:48 AM
david west lol

Baller1
01-28-2012, 02:54 AM
Dwight above KD right now is just plain wrong.

numba1CHANGsta
01-28-2012, 02:59 AM
Its basically a 5 man race, I doubt Rose repeats and I doubt D12 will be a Magic for the full season so that comes down to either LeBron, Durant or Kobe, my guess is Durant since they will have the best record in the West and a better record than the Heat

John Walls Era
01-28-2012, 03:01 AM
You can give out MVPs to sub 500 teams? Kevin Love may be the best PF in the game (some of that has to do with the supposed decline of Dirk and Pau), but the race to MVP can't just look at stats.

mvb815
01-28-2012, 03:08 AM
i can name 15 people not 1-9 playing better than david west thus far

MagicBucsSox
01-28-2012, 03:10 AM
Bron & k love are lead candidates

Cal827
01-28-2012, 03:11 AM
The first 5 seem ok, but based on the last 5, I think I would prefer to go to CousinsEvansDuo and find out who he thinks the top 10 should be. It would likely be more accurate.

David West at 10 over fellow PF Chris Bosh. :facepalm::facepalm::facepalm::facepalm::facepalm: :facepalm::facepalm::facepalm::facepalm::facepalm:

Sadds The Gr8
01-28-2012, 03:14 AM
David West? :facepalm::facepalm::facepalm::facepalm::facepalm: :facepalm::facepalm::facepalm::facepalm::facepalm: :facepalm::facepalm::facepalm::facepalm::facepalm: :facepalm::facepalm::facepalm::facepalm::facepalm: :facepalm::facepalm::facepalm::facepalm::facepalm: :facepalm::facepalm::facepalm::facepalm::facepalm: :facepalm::facepalm::facepalm::facepalm::facepalm: :facepalm::facepalm::facepalm::facepalm::facepalm: :facepalm::facepalm::facepalm::facepalm::facepalm: :facepalm::facepalm::facepalm::facepalm::facepalm: :facepalm::facepalm::facepalm::facepalm::facepalm: :facepalm::facepalm::facepalm::facepalm::facepalm: :facepalm::facepalm::facepalm::facepalm:

D-Will4Prez
01-28-2012, 03:16 AM
Besides the obvious (West), why the **** is Ty Lawson on there? :rolleyes:

DoubleDragon
01-28-2012, 03:34 AM
David West?
Is that a type-o?

Nick O
01-28-2012, 03:38 AM
David West?
Is that a type-o?

lol nope :P

knightstemplar
01-28-2012, 03:56 AM
Right now

1. Durant
2. Lebron
3. Kobe

Raps18-19 Champ
01-28-2012, 03:56 AM
You should add the link.

http://www.nba.com/mvp-ladder/2011-12/index.html?ls=iref:nbahpt1

cutiepie80
01-28-2012, 03:57 AM
Seriously Lebron? I don't get it at all. He has Bosh and Wade almost every night to play with. He doesn't even outplay them some nights.

Why isn't Durant, Love, Kobe and Howard in front of Lebron?????

Raph12
01-28-2012, 04:02 AM
Seriously Lebron? I don't get it at all. He has Bosh and Wade almost every night to play with. He doesn't even outplay them some nights.

Why isn't Durant, Love, Kobe and Howard in front of Lebron?????

I don't know, maybe all-time best efficiency? Not to forget he also has better production than all of those guys as well.

Love? Really?

cutiepie80
01-28-2012, 04:09 AM
I don't know, maybe all-time best efficiency? Not to forget he also has better production than all of those guys as well.

Love? Really?

Yeah, Love......really.

Raph12
01-28-2012, 04:10 AM
Kevin Love? Really?... I didn't know playing more minutes whilst shooting lower percentages across the board and getting less assists yet committing more turnovers qualifies you as a top 5-7 MVP candidate. He's even dropped off at what he did best (for him), rebounding, all while leading his team to a sub-500 record, what a feat. :rolleyes:

On another note; Dwight's stock is likely to take a hit after losing 3 of their last 4 games (within five nights but w/e). My list looks more like this:

1. Lebron
.
.
2. Durant
.
3. Dwight
4. Kobe
5. Rose
.
6-to-~500. Irrelevant because they don't have a shot

stawka
01-28-2012, 04:18 AM
Dwight above KD right now is just plain wrong.

Expect that to change in the upcoming week. The two big losses to Boston will kill that for Dwight

tredigs
01-28-2012, 04:22 AM
Oh my goodness.

Care to prove otherwise? I'm not talking playoffs, but night to night against any given team? Not much difference with or without Rose. It's a difference of winning by 10 or winning by 5 on average. All the stats agree with this, but I'd be curious to hear an insider and/or homers opinion.

Durant or Lebron are winning MVP this year, I'd put massive money on that.

cutiepie80
01-28-2012, 04:24 AM
Kevin Love? Really?... I didn't know playing more minutes whilst shooting lower percentages across the board and getting less assists yet committing more turnovers qualifies you as a top 5-7 MVP candidate. He's even dropped off at what he did best (for him), rebounding, all while leading his team to a sub-500 record, what a feat. :rolleyes:

On another note; Dwight's stock is likely to take a hit after losing 3 of their last 4 games (within five nights but w/e). My list looks more like this:

1. Lebron
.
.
2. Durant
.
3. Dwight
4. Kobe
5. Rose
.
6-to-~500. Irrelevant because they don't have a shot

I didn't know playing with two other all stars made it easier to be a better nba player at all. It's shocking that James can score 25+ a night when he has Wade and Bosh on his team. To think a really good player can become a mvp because he doesn't see as much coverage and double teams blows my mind.

cutiepie80
01-28-2012, 04:30 AM
Care to prove otherwise? I'm not talking playoffs, but night to night against any given team? Not much difference with or without Rose. It's a difference of winning by 10 or winning by 5 on average. All the stats agree with this, but I'd be curious to hear an insider and/or homers opinion.

Durant or Lebron are winning MVP this year, I'd put massive money on that.

Rose has a more rounded team this year and no way he should be the mvp thus far. Bulls fan here.

But he is the best pg in the league and that isn't because I am a bulls fan. He is just a lot more explosive at his position then anyone else. CP3 and D Will are the only one's close. Scratch that, they are right behind him.

rockbottom2010
01-28-2012, 04:32 AM
alot of lbj haters are gonna hate...without a shadow of a doubt that lebrons mvp thus far....

tredigs
01-28-2012, 04:34 AM
Rose has a more rounded team this year and no way he should be the mvp thus far. Bulls fan here.

But he is the best pg in the league and that isn't because I am a bulls fan. He is just a lot more explosive at his position then anyone else. CP3 and D Will are the only one's close. Scratch that, they are right behind him.

There's zero "explosiveness" that D. Rose has that Westbrook doesn't. Zero. And it may weigh in favor of Russ actually.

That said, D. Rose has a slightly better control of said explosiveness. And that's why he's still the slightly better player. Both fantastic.

Chris Paul still commands the game at a level that both can't comprehend at this point.

naps
01-28-2012, 04:46 AM
Rose has a more rounded team this year and no way he should be the mvp thus far. Bulls fan here.

But he is the best pg in the league and that isn't because I am a bulls fan. He is just a lot more explosive at his position then anyone else. CP3 and D Will are the only one's close. Scratch that, they are right behind him.

Funny. Chris Paul is best PG in the league hands down. There is a reason why all of a sudden the Clippers are not a laughing stock anymore.

Bullsfan22
01-28-2012, 04:50 AM
You beat who you faced. They're an elite team with or without him, which draws moot the whole idea that X player has X amount of help "and D. Rose has no All-Star so he should be MVP". It's a dumb, kindergarten argument that we see here far too often.

REALLY? So the Bulls are an ELITE team without Derrick Rose?

The rest of what you said doesn't apply to me because I've never used that argument.

Big Zo
01-28-2012, 04:52 AM
Seriously Lebron? I don't get it at all. He has Bosh and Wade almost every night to play with. He doesn't even outplay them some nights.

Why isn't Durant, Love, Kobe and Howard in front of Lebron?????

Why the hell did Magic Johnson win 3 MVP awards while playing with Kareem and Worthy?????

NoahH
01-28-2012, 04:59 AM
I've found the ladder always includes some questionables in the bottom three, basically just being players who played well in the week but have no chance of winning MVP

Raph12
01-28-2012, 05:08 AM
I didn't know playing with two other all stars made it easier to be a better nba player at all. It's shocking that James can score 25+ a night when he has Wade and Bosh on his team. To think a really good player can become a mvp because he doesn't see as much coverage and double teams blows my mind.

He's scoring 29+ppg a night, whilst shooting over 54%... I know it's unfathomable how efficient that is for a DRose follower, because Rose can only shoot under 45%, but Lebron is playing on a completely different player than anyone in league history atm.

If he continues to play like this, he'll have the greatest statistical season of all time.

PS: I like how you changed the topic from "how Love wasn't deserving" to "Lebron's teammates" without addressing any of the facts I posted.

Raph12
01-28-2012, 05:09 AM
Yeah, Love......really.

Posted this in the other thread, but w/e I'll drop it here as well:


Kevin Love? Really?... I didn't know playing more minutes whilst shooting lower percentages across the board and getting less assists yet committing more turnovers qualifies you as a top 5-7 MVP candidate. He's even dropped off at what he did best (for him), rebounding, all while leading his team to a sub-500 record, what a feat. :rolleyes:

On another note; Dwight's stock is likely to take a hit after losing 3 of their last 4 games (within five nights but w/e). My list looks more like this:

1. Lebron
.
.
2. Durant
.
3. Dwight
4. Kobe
5. Rose
.
6-to-~500. Irrelevant because they don't have a shot

Love is not playing much better than he did last season and his team still sucks, ergo he isn't deserving of being anywhere near the MVP award.

Ebbs
01-28-2012, 05:32 AM
West/Lawson absolutely butchered this for me. There have literally been a 100 players more valuable than West this season. It's actually atrocious. I won't read this garbage until the writers replaced.

JohnBoy326
01-28-2012, 06:21 AM
He's scoring 29+ppg a night, whilst shooting over 54%... I know it's unfathomable how efficient that is for a DRose follower, because Rose can only shoot under 45%, but Lebron is playing on a completely different player than anyone in league history atm.

If he continues to play like this, he'll have the greatest statistical season of all time.

PS: I like how you changed the topic from "how Love wasn't deserving" to "Lebron's teammates" without addressing any of the facts I posted.

I wish Rose had Bosh/Wade on a team. 40/10/15 would be his average, that's basically his floor with 2 other all-stars. But he'll just keep being the best with ****ing Boozer's ***** ***. Put Durant on the Bulls and watch Rose destroy LeBrick. He don't need superstars, he'll do it himself.

PS LeBron's a *****.

stawka
01-28-2012, 06:44 AM
LOL yeah. Rose averaging 15 assists lmao

Raph12
01-28-2012, 06:53 AM
I wish Rose had Bosh/Wade on a team. 40/10/15 would be his average, that's basically his floor with 2 other all-stars. But he'll just keep being the best with ****ing Boozer's ***** ***. Put Durant on the Bulls and watch Rose destroy LeBrick. He don't need superstars, he'll do it himself.

PS LeBron's a *****.

Rose had his moment and then in the playoffs Lebron crapped all over Rose and his Bulls, like he did in 2010 with the Cavs. Roses wilt away, just like his future MVP aspirations, but Lebricks are solid... See what I did there? :D

It's easy to be obnoxious, when you have something productive to say, get back to me.

Swashcuff
01-28-2012, 08:35 AM
Kevin Love? Really?... I didn't know playing more minutes whilst shooting lower percentages across the board and getting less assists yet committing more turnovers qualifies you as a top 5-7 MVP candidate. He's even dropped off at what he did best (for him), rebounding, all while leading his team to a sub-500 record, what a feat. :rolleyes:


You can give out MVPs to sub 500 teams? Kevin Love may be the best PF in the game (some of that has to do with the supposed decline of Dirk and Pau), but the race to MVP can't just look at stats.

You give the mighty Dwight that cast in that system in the west and he'd struggle to keep them over .500 consistently even with his all world defensive impact.

Looking at Kevin Love's game this season you'd see why his rebounding has taken a hit and it's only logical. The man scores a great deal of his points on the perimeter. More so this season than ever before in his career.

You highly the fact that he has dropped in his rebounding and isn't passing as efficiently as before but don't highlight the fact that he's having his best season PER wise, in terms of WS/48, overall win shares and his improved his game greatly on the defensive end of the floor. '

With a larger role in the offense and becoming a more go to scorer rather than just free lancing and playing independently of the system (higher USG% tells us this as well) it would be only expected that his TO% would go up a bit and with a PG like Rubio and since he's become more of a finisher its also only logical that his 3 assists would take a hit.

Kevin Love absolutely deserves to be in the top 6 and to think he is only now beginning to find his stroke. He's going to be deadly be deadly when he really starts to get going from the stroke.

Hell lets even dissect the Timberpuppies losses this season. 5 of their 10 losses have been by 4 points or less. As for the Magic 1 of their 7 losses have by 4 points or less.

Though the Wolves may not have a winning record they have been a VERY good job of staying in games to the very end this season and that a direct result of the play of Love and Rubio.

They also play out West and have had a harder schedule thus far than the Magic.

The Love naysayers often think that all everyone looks at is the stats but that's not the case. You have to look at the big picture. Stats aren't everything but you can't hold a man ransom because of the fact that his supporting cast doesn't show up to play on most nights.

Swashcuff
01-28-2012, 08:39 AM
As for the list its absolutely atrocious that David West is up there though it completely contradicts every single thing that JWE is saying since he's clearly there only because of his teams record and it has absolutely nothing to do with stats.

Aldridge, Marc Gasol, Paul Millsap, etc deserve to be up there ahead of Lawson, Gay and West.

beasted86
01-28-2012, 08:40 AM
David West, not Chris Bosh who was averaging 27 PPG over the last 6 games?

If I wasn't before, I'm now convinced some of these sports writers are complete idiots.

theheatles
01-28-2012, 10:16 AM
how is LaMarcus Aldridge falling out? he should be top 5, at the very least top 10

thekmp211
01-28-2012, 10:20 AM
lebron/kobe/durant/howard

are really the only guys with good chances going forward. i'll resist the urge to jump in on some of these assessments because they don't matter. those four, along with d-rose at 100%, are the only guys with a fighting chance.

i love how the timberwolves being around .500 is suddenly a negative. have you guys watched that team play for the last three years?

JordansBulls
01-28-2012, 10:47 AM
Why the hell did Magic Johnson win 3 MVP awards while playing with Kareem and Worthy?????

He only won them when Kareem wasn't a superstar. You see Neither Magic or Kareem won any between 1981 and 1986.

JordansBulls
01-28-2012, 10:52 AM
Highly doubt that. His stats are monumentally sub-par for MVP candidate standards, he's no longer the hot story, and they're virtually just as good without him on a night to night basis. They'll likely give it to a top 5 player this year.

And he clearly is a top 5 player, at least a top 3 player in reality. No other player in the league has led teams to the best record as the only allstar on there team.
Not to mention Nash won league mvp averaging 15 and 11 and the other year he won it he put up 19 and 10.

Rose's WS/PER 48 is .243 and Durant's .220. So yeah don't give me that Durant is far out ahead.

Swashcuff
01-28-2012, 11:25 AM
Posted this in the other thread, but w/e I'll drop it here as well:



Love is not playing much better than he did last season and his team still sucks, ergo he isn't deserving of being anywhere near the MVP award.

This is just flat out wrong on every single level and you know this. Love and the Timberwolves have improved. Anyone who watches Love and the Wolves play know this.

Mr_Amaziing
01-28-2012, 11:33 AM
It should be

Durant
Lebron
Rose
Howard
Kobe

Nick O
01-28-2012, 01:00 PM
how is LaMarcus Aldridge falling out? he should be top 5, at the very least top 10

nooo

Big Zo
01-28-2012, 01:07 PM
He only won them when Kareem wasn't a superstar. You see Neither Magic or Kareem won any between 1981 and 1986.

They weren't exactly scrubs, either, winning two championships after 1986. But anyway, I guess a better comparison would be Larry Bird winning with Kevin Mchale and Robert Parish.

justinnum1
01-28-2012, 01:52 PM
lebron is distancing himself...

beliges
01-28-2012, 02:15 PM
lebron is distancing himself...

Lebron will need either Wade or Bosh out for the majority of the season for him to have a shot at the MVP. Rose and Durant are ahead of him right now simply because they both have their teams at the #1 spot of their respective conferences. If Wade was out for the season and the Heat continued winning, they surely LBJ would be the MVP, but with Wade back playing again, I dont understand how you would think Lebron will win the MVP. Its practically impossible.

TO Rapz
01-28-2012, 02:31 PM
it should be:

Lebrick shames
Kevin durant
Dwight howard
Kobe
Derrick rose
jose calderon

The rest don't matter.

Nick O
01-28-2012, 03:24 PM
it should be:

Lebrick shames
Kevin durant
Dwight howard
Kobe
Derrick rose
jose calderon

The rest don't matter.

lololololololololololol good one

Swashcuff
01-28-2012, 04:03 PM
It should be

Durant
Lebron
Rose
Howard
Kobe

You homers are so funny. :laugh2:

Ebbs
01-28-2012, 04:25 PM
Man I dreamed about the awfulness of this list. I'm not kidding . . . West on this list isn't enough to riot?

Granger, George, Hibbert, and Collison are all arguabky more valuable than him...

NYYCowboys
01-28-2012, 04:43 PM
Wait wait wait you mean Amare's not top 10?!?!!?!?!

Nick O
01-28-2012, 04:53 PM
Wait wait wait you mean Amare's not top 10?!?!!?!?!

uhhh obviously... bosh and aldridge are playing better than he is..

Chronz
01-28-2012, 04:54 PM
lebron is distancing himself...

Lebron will need either Wade or Bosh out for the majority of the season for him to have a shot at the MVP. Rose and Durant are ahead of him right now simply because they both have their teams at the #1 spot of their respective conferences. If Wade was out for the season and the Heat continued winning, they surely LBJ would be the MVP, but with Wade back playing again, I dont understand how you would think Lebron will win the MVP. Its practically impossible.
Nah, just being on a better team won't win Rose the MVP ahead of Bron, not with the type of season hes having.

pd1dish
01-28-2012, 05:10 PM
i thought the list as a whole was pretty bad, but of the guys that actually have a shot at winning MVP, i was fine with it.

NYYCowboys
01-28-2012, 05:21 PM
uhhh obviously... bosh and aldridge are playing better than he is..

sarcasm....:facepalm:

naps
01-28-2012, 05:39 PM
I wish Rose had Bosh/Wade on a team. 40/10/15 would be his average, that's basically his floor with 2 other all-stars. But he'll just keep being the best with ****ing Boozer's ***** ***. Put Durant on the Bulls and watch Rose destroy LeBrick. He don't need superstars, he'll do it himself.

PS LeBron's a *****.

And Bulls fan complain why Rose is called the most overrated player? Read this post again.

naps
01-28-2012, 05:44 PM
Lebron will need either Wade or Bosh out for the majority of the season for him to have a shot at the MVP. Rose and Durant are ahead of him right now simply because they both have their teams at the #1 spot of their respective conferences. If Wade was out for the season and the Heat continued winning, they surely LBJ would be the MVP, but with Wade back playing again, I dont understand how you would think Lebron will win the MVP. Its practically impossible.


It's absolutely possible. Miami will need the best record for LeBron to get the MVP. He proved he can easily destroy top teams even without Wade in the team. Not to mention he's having one of the most productive statistical seasons ever, if not the most. No one is even close to his dominance.

Cano4prez
01-28-2012, 06:37 PM
And he clearly is a top 5 player, at least a top 3 player in reality. No other player in the league has led teams to the best record as the only allstar on there team.
Not to mention Nash won league mvp averaging 15 and 11 and the other year he won it he put up 19 and 10.

Rose's WS/PER 48 is .243 and Durant's .220. So yeah don't give me that Durant is far out ahead.

Rose is clearly not a top 3 or top 5 player, and LeBron led the Cavs to the best record as their only all star..

JordansBulls
01-28-2012, 07:46 PM
It's absolutely possible. Miami will need the best record for LeBron to get the MVP. He proved he can easily destroy top teams even without Wade in the team. Not to mention he's having one of the most productive statistical seasons ever, if not the most. No one is even close to his dominance.

I agree the Heat will need the best record for Lebron to get it, but what top teams did he destroy without Wade?

JordansBulls
01-28-2012, 07:55 PM
Rose is clearly not a top 3 or top 5 player, and LeBron led the Cavs to the best record as their only all star..

Yes Rose is clearly a top 3 to top 5 player. Also you are right no one on the Cavs in 2010 made the allstar team, however what Lebron had were guys who won titles as the man before Cleveland. For instance Ben Wallace and Shaq. Ben Wallace led the Pistons team in 2004 to the title as he was the only allstar on that team. Rose never had that.

Swashcuff
01-28-2012, 07:57 PM
Yes Rose is clearly a top 3 to top 5 player. And Lebron also had guys who won titles as the man in Cleveland in Ben Wallace and Shaq. Rose never had that. And yes Ben Wallace was the only allstar on the 2004 Pistons.

Arguably one of the worst and most ignorant posts I've ever read in my time here on PSD.

I haven't facepalmed anyone in quite some time but this post is truly deserving of one.

HORRENDOUS argument.