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View Full Version : Shaq and C-Webb Say Andrew Bynum is Best Center in NBA



KB-Pau-DH2012
01-12-2012, 11:54 PM
2 nights ago on NBATV and tonight on TNT, C-Webb and Shaq respectively stated that Andrew Bynum is the best center in the NBA. Does this give more credence to the argument since 2 Hall of Fame Big Men have gone out to say this? What are you guys' thoughts?

Gram
01-12-2012, 11:55 PM
It's a nice praise.

asandhu23
01-12-2012, 11:56 PM
Chris isn't in HOF. He will be but he isn't.

Cal827
01-12-2012, 11:58 PM
Well, Shaq will say anything anti-Howard so somewhat credible on Webber's comment.

Better offensively than Howard, but Howard just towers over him on the other end lol

GREATNESS ONE
01-13-2012, 12:05 AM
Meh, I'm a Die Hard Lakers fan, bleed it, eat it sleep it but even I know Bynum isn't the best center in the NBA. He's fantastic and great but he still has a lot to prove before he can carry that title respectfully. Until then it's D12.

MagicBucsSox
01-13-2012, 12:06 AM
Then shaq says LAL would be "favorites" with Dwight but they aren't with Bynum now,

So what one is it shaq? I'd love to see shaq or bynum play with the crap Dwight does

tyfreaks brotha
01-13-2012, 12:06 AM
Link?

MagicBucsSox
01-13-2012, 12:08 AM
The most comical thing is Bynum has netter offensive moves and I agree yet never avg MORE ANYTHING than Dwight ever lol. I want Dwight to get a great team elsewhere bc Otis won't do it.

slynxpac
01-13-2012, 12:09 AM
how about Dwight Howard?

Hangtime
01-13-2012, 12:11 AM
I would take Howard any day of the week over Bynum. I hardly pay attention to the crap that spews out of Shaq's mouth. Think what type of player he could become with another high caliber player on his team. Something we have yet to see with Howard.

85BearsDefense
01-13-2012, 12:13 AM
Agreed, I believe Bynum would put up better numbers than Dwight given he was the main man, he also is the only center to really slow down Dwight.

kozelkid
01-13-2012, 12:17 AM
It isn't THAT much of a stretch when you think about it. Both elite defenders thought Howard is probably still at another level, while Bynum is better offensive player and more comfortable at that end. The problem is that Bynum is injury prone whereas Howard is pretty much an iron man.

But in reality, there's definitely a good case for Bynum.

Ladies Man
01-13-2012, 12:18 AM
Would the Magic trade Howard for Bynum? I wouldn't. People keep talking about Howard going to LA but they don't have cap and who would they trade to get him? They would be the Knicks of the West if they emptied everything for Howard

kozelkid
01-13-2012, 12:20 AM
The most comical thing is Bynum has netter offensive moves and I agree yet never avg MORE ANYTHING than Dwight ever lol. I want Dwight to get a great team elsewhere bc Otis won't do it.

It probably has nothing to do with playing with two high usage players in Kobe and Gasol.

BigBongTheory
01-13-2012, 12:20 AM
As a huge laker fan myself i try and not be too biased about things like this, I love Bynum and he is on another level than hes been before, even though he has shown spurts like this before, he's doing it consistently this year, and hes not the first or arguably not even the second option on his team. Bynum is better offensively then howard as far as having more moves in the paint, and has the skill to score however he wants to, Howard is the first option on his team. Howard is better defensively, three Defensive player of the year awards (in a row). Howards better overall, bynum offensively, howard defensively.

kozelkid
01-13-2012, 12:21 AM
Would the Magic trade Howard for Bynum? I wouldn't. People keep talking about Howard going to LA but they don't have cap and who would they trade to get him? They would be the Knicks of the West if they emptied everything for Howard

In terms of value, Orlando would be crazy not to do it. They won't get any better offer. Is Bynum injury history a risk and a concern? Absolutely, but the reality is that there isn't any better package available where Howard has shown desire to go to at least per reports.

However, in the end, I just don't see Orlando ownership signing off on it. You gotta think that they are still bitter over the whole Shaq issue along with losing to LA in 08.

*Silver&Black*
01-13-2012, 12:21 AM
Just think of it this way:

If the Lakers were actually offered Dwight Howard for Bynum and Gasol, they would be insane not to take that.

king2218
01-13-2012, 12:22 AM
ORL should trade Howard for Bynum, if they plan on trading Howard at all...and ofcourse ORL should get a 3rd team involved to get more pieces but Bynum is a much better option than Lopez.

THE MTL
01-13-2012, 12:23 AM
Well Shaq's statement has no credibility at all. He hates Dwight Howard.

KB-Pau-DH2012
01-13-2012, 12:24 AM
Well, it'll be interesting to see next Friday on ESPN when the Lakers visit Orlando! Bynum vs Howard matchup will be very very very intriguing to watch. Ratings should be through the roof, especially with this whole Dwight Howard wanting trade to LA ordeal.

Hellcrooner
01-13-2012, 12:25 AM
knee timebomb is tickking it will blow in 10, 9, 8......

Hellcrooner
01-13-2012, 12:26 AM
Well, it'll be interesting to see next Friday on ESPN when the Lakers visit Orlando! Bynum vs Howard matchup will be very very very intriguing to watch. Ratings should be through the roof, especially with this whole Dwight Howard wanting trade to LA ordeal.

specially with Howard being carefull ot not causing an injury to bynum, so they can be traded for each other.

He may even force a stinker game to make bynum look good :D

mamba24
01-13-2012, 12:31 AM
Would the Magic trade Howard for Bynum? I wouldn't. People keep talking about Howard going to LA but they don't have cap and who would they trade to get him? They would be the Knicks of the West if they emptied everything for Howard

you know bynum makes 15 mill right?? it would be easy to match dwights salary...

mamba24
01-13-2012, 12:32 AM
specially with Howard being carefull ot not causing an injury to bynum, so they can be traded for each other.

He may even force a stinker game to make bynum look good :D

i would love for dwight to help his future team with playoff seeding by not playing very hard...

jmoney85
01-13-2012, 12:36 AM
i hope hes not traded at all so this goes to free agency

Sactown
01-13-2012, 12:42 AM
Shaq thought that the penalty box in Hockey acted as a fighting ring, so with that being said.... No, Bad Shaq.

Teeboy1487
01-13-2012, 12:45 AM
He's not better than Howard. I watch every minute Bynum plays. Howard is far superior, but I do think Bynum is the 2nd best center in the league though.

5ass
01-13-2012, 12:50 AM
they both dont know what they're talking about. Dwight is a better man to man defender, better help defender (avgs more steals and blocks), better pick n roll defender, better at defending when switched to a perimeter player, better at handling double teams: better at passing (Dwight has been passing the ball much better this season), better at scoring while double or triple or quadruple teamed, better at finishing with the foul. I can go on and on, but i wont, because i dont believe anyone actually believes Bynum is a better player.

kArSoN RyDaH
01-13-2012, 12:55 AM
Bynum, when he reaches Dwights age, will be better at that age than Dwight.


If that makes sense. Lol.

5ass
01-13-2012, 12:56 AM
Bynum, when he reaches Dwights age, will be better at that age than Dwight.


If that makes sense. Lol.

or retired...

Sactown
01-13-2012, 12:57 AM
Difference is, when people go to play the Lakers their team isn't thinking, "What are we going to do to slow down Andrew Bynum tonight?", but they are thinking "What are we going to do about Howard tonight?"

Swashcuff
01-13-2012, 12:59 AM
It probably has nothing to do with playing with two high usage players in Kobe and Gasol.

Problem with this argument is however if it were Dwight playing with Kobe and Gasol do you seriously think they'd be having such a high usage? Dwight would dominate Gasol on the glass and Kobe would defer to him during the course of each game. Dwight would get his and take away from Gasol and Kobe with Bynum its the other way around.

This belief that Bynum would be on Dwight's level if he went to another team and was a #1 is just that a belief. Dwight transcends situations and teams which is why he's the best everything has to fall into place for Bynum for him to be the best (at least according to some of the opinions in this thread).

Bravo95
01-13-2012, 01:07 AM
Well...

John Walls Era
01-13-2012, 01:07 AM
:pity: Copies Skip Bayless.

jam
01-13-2012, 01:29 AM
"Shaq and C-Webb Say Andrew Bynum is Best Center in NBA"

....ahem (if he can avoid injuries).

ClippersE.G
01-13-2012, 01:31 AM
He is the greatest center of all time.

TmacBryant
01-13-2012, 02:09 AM
Bynum:
Better Offensively
Better FT%
Defense is the same

Dwight:
More explosive
Defense is the same
Healthy


Dwight is still better just because of that one factor. He can play a full season.

smiddy012
01-13-2012, 02:18 AM
Just think of it this way:

If the Lakers were actually offered Dwight Howard for Bynum and Gasol, they would be insane not to take that.

This. They shot themselves in the foot though by trading away Odom though.

smiddy012
01-13-2012, 02:25 AM
Bynum:
Better Offensively
Better FT%
Defense is the same

Dwight:
More explosive
Defense is the same
Healthy


Dwight is still better just because of that one factor. He can play a full season.

:facepalm:

Shaq is that you???

5ass
01-13-2012, 02:31 AM
45pts-23rbnds-4stls-3asts-2blks almost 60% fg%

Slimsim
01-13-2012, 02:32 AM
45pts-23rbnds-4stls-3asts-2blks almost 60% fg%

this

5ass
01-13-2012, 02:32 AM
Bynum:
Better Offensively
Better FT%
Defense is the same

Dwight:
More explosive
Defense is the same
Healthy


Dwight is still better just because of that one factor. He can play a full season.
only laker fans think this is true, and u also left out a lot of other stuff about dwight.

Lakers + Giants
01-13-2012, 02:33 AM
Laughable. I LOVE drew, I'd still trade his *** for dwight in a heart beat.

shep33
01-13-2012, 02:34 AM
I think most Laker fans including myself think Howard is better.

MR.Bear
01-13-2012, 02:35 AM
The game Howard just had made this thread, plus shaq and company look stupid.Coming from a Bulls fan with no bias view HOWARD ALL DAY.

jmoney85
01-13-2012, 02:36 AM
Bynum:
Better Offensively
Better FT%
Defense is the same

Dwight:
More explosive
Defense is the same
Healthy


Dwight is still better just because of that one factor. He can play a full season.

you should never be allowed to post on here ever again after that comment

tyfreaks brotha
01-13-2012, 02:36 AM
If Bynum was able to stay healthy for the entire season then he'd be considered but until then he'll always be a distant second until Howard begins to decline. That is if Bynum is still in the NBA

Cano-Montero...
01-13-2012, 02:37 AM
typical shaq... Howard is better than Bynum...case closed

But if we are gonna trade with magic for dwight, I would only trade drew not both pau and drew..

AI4MVP
01-13-2012, 02:37 AM
Please tell me I was not that only person to see Shaq say that 18 for 39 free throw shooting is atleast 50%

Hellcrooner
01-13-2012, 02:37 AM
Yo Shaq!!!!

42 points 25 rebounds.

Just shut the **** up Moron.

smiddy012
01-13-2012, 02:39 AM
DH isn't playing next to Kobe or Gasol, yet he's still plenty more efficient than Bynum. And this is supposed to be a "stellar" season for Bynum... meanwhile DH is the best offensive player Orlando has by MILES, ALL defenses (or offenses for that matter) have to worry about is DH when they play Orlando. He has a shooter in Anderson, whoopady doo, doesn't compare to Kobe, Gasol, and an actual team with chemistry and real role-players.

Can someone rationally explain to me why Bynum is better on offense??? And please, don't tell me that Bynum simply has "more moves." Give me something tangible.

FT percentages I am aware of, they don't make or break the fact that DH suffers the full brunt of a defenses focus, meanwhile Bynums playing with one of the best PFs in the league who can create space for him, not to mention the best player of this generation... DH has Big Baby Glen ****ing Davis and a spot-up shooter to work with...

Teeboy1487
01-13-2012, 02:50 AM
Bynum:
Better Offensively
Better FT%
Defense is the same

Dwight:
More explosive
Defense is the same
Healthy


Dwight is still better just because of that one factor. He can play a full season.
Defense is not even close. Dwight is the best defensive basketball player on the planet bar none. Bynum is actually lazy defensively. He never gets back on defense and when he does not get the ball, he gives no effort defensively at all. However, when he is focused, he plays good defense. He is also a great post defender, but not Howard's level.

As for offense, while Bynum has more moves in his arsenal, Dwight is far more dominant offensively. He can explode at any time for 40 or even 50 points if he can learn to make his FTs.

Speaking of FT shooting, I really don't see a huge difference. Bynum and Dwight have both been abysmal at the line this year. I will give only a slight edge to Bynum instead of all out better.

Overall, Shaq and C-Webb should get another job. There is no way Bynum is even remotely better than Howard. I forgot who said this, but I thought it was an excellent analogy. Dwight to Bynum is like Lebron to Danny Granger. Bynum imo is the second best center in the league, but Dwight is far superior. Just my two cents.

TheRazorboy
01-13-2012, 02:54 AM
Something tells me Shaq doesn't have a future as a scout.

MetroMan
01-13-2012, 02:55 AM
shaq is a hater

smiddy012
01-13-2012, 02:56 AM
Defense is not even close. Dwight is the best defensive basketball player on the planet bar none. Bynum is actually lazy defensively. He never gets back on defense and when he does not get the ball, he gives no effort defensively at all. However, when he is focused, he plays good defense. He is also a great post defender, but not Howard's level.

As for offense, while Bynum has more moves in his arsenal, Dwight is far more dominate offensively. He can explode at any time for 40 or even 50 points if he can learn to make his FTs.

Speaking of FT shooting, I really don't see a huge difference. Bynum and Dwight have both been abysmal at the line this year. I will give only a slight edge to Bynum instead of all out better.

Overall, Shaq and C-Webb should get another job. There is no way Bynum is even remotely better than Howard. I forgot who said this but I thought it was an excellent analogy. Dwight to Bynum is like Lebron to Danny Granger. Bynum imo is the second best center in the league, but Dwight is far superior. Just my two cents.

Yes sir, although historically I must admit Bynum certainly is the better FT shooter by a noticeable margin. Granted Bynum is nothing special FT wise, DH just sucks at it.

MetroMan
01-13-2012, 03:00 AM
Dwight howard 3x nba defensive player of the year. Bynum is not even close by a long shot

THE GIPPER
01-13-2012, 03:30 AM
Everything these "experts" say is so biased and so political now it literally means nothing.

meloman1592
01-13-2012, 03:48 AM
The thought of this deserves a SMH!

Supreme LA
01-13-2012, 04:16 AM
they both dont know what they're talking about. Dwight is a better man to man defender, better help defender (avgs more steals and blocks), better pick n roll defender, better at defending when switched to a perimeter player, better at handling double teams: better at passing (Dwight has been passing the ball much better this season), better at scoring while double or triple or quadruple teamed, better at finishing with the foul. I can go on and on, but i wont, because i dont believe anyone actually believes Bynum is a better player.

Dwight is better defensively in every aspect of the game and a physical beast athletically. Dwight could run Bynum off the court as well and that there is te difference.

You cannot argue that Dwight is better than Bynum offensively because he isn't. Bynum has a better touch around the basket, can go either hand, and has a much better back to basket game.

I have no bias when it comes to these two because I love both players and would trade Dwight for Bynum in a heart beat, but Bynum is the better offensive player.

I'm just glad we can put the notion that Brook Lopez is better than Bynum to rest. Lopez has no business being in the conversation among the best centers in the league and never has.

iam brett favre
01-13-2012, 04:30 AM
This whole time I thought it said Bogut not Bynum :laugh2:

Raph12
01-13-2012, 04:32 AM
Shaq has got to be the most insecure player in NBA history with 4 rings...

MickeyMgl
01-13-2012, 04:35 AM
2 nights ago on NBATV and tonight on TNT, C-Webb and Shaq respectively stated that Andrew Bynum is the best center in the NBA. Does this give more credence to the argument since 2 Hall of Fame Big Men have gone out to say this? What are you guys' thoughts?

Drug test them immediately.

J4KOP99
01-13-2012, 04:36 AM
I love the Lakers and I really do think Bynum has an incredible bright future ahead of himself...

HOWEVER:


Howard is still much, much better than Bynum. Howard is in his own class currently.

MickeyMgl
01-13-2012, 04:37 AM
Chris isn't in HOF. He will be but he isn't.

Oh, he won't be.

central2003
01-13-2012, 05:00 AM
No way is he better than Howard. Bynum is a top 5 center but he is not the best. by next year Cousins will be better then Bynum. people can accept this or deny it but its the truth.

mdm692
01-13-2012, 05:04 AM
In other news shaq and cwebb have been spotted doing crack before each of their shows.

Chronz
01-13-2012, 05:21 AM
Bynum isnt moving well at all to me, hes not in shape yet but this wont be a laughable comparison if he stays healthy. Hes struggling with double teams this year but some of that is due to his quickness, hes a quick learner and has shown some passing ability in his youth.

lakerboy
01-13-2012, 05:29 AM
Bynum is better 100000%

Now give us Dwight :)

Korman12
01-13-2012, 05:42 AM
nah

beliges
01-13-2012, 05:59 AM
Bynum cant play off the double team at this point. Hes not used to it so hes making a lot of TOs and bad decisions when teams double him. However, hes bigger, longer and more skilled offensively than Howard. His footwork is better at this point, and he has a soft jumper. Lastly the aspect that adds to his value is the fact that he can knock down FTs. And thats HUGE at the end of games which you cant rely on Dwight to do. BUT, Dwight is still the best C in the league. Just too much of an athletic beast. What he gives up in length he certainly makes up for his athleticism. Bynum is simply not capable of putting up a 45-22 night like Dwight just did.

eugene
01-13-2012, 06:19 AM
This!


it isn't that much of a stretch when you think about it. Both elite defenders thought howard is probably still at another level, while bynum is better offensive player and more comfortable at that end. The problem is that bynum is injury prone whereas howard is pretty much an iron man.

But in reality, there's definitely a good case for bynum.

Chronz
01-13-2012, 06:20 AM
Bynum is shooting a lowly 45% in Post-Up shots

Bruno
01-13-2012, 06:24 AM
was this before or after howard went for 42/23/3/2/4?

Raph12
01-13-2012, 06:26 AM
Bynum cant play off the double team at this point. Hes not used to it so hes making a lot of TOs and bad decisions when teams double him. However, hes bigger, longer and more skilled offensively than Howard. His footwork is better at this point, and he has a soft jumper. Lastly the aspect that adds to his value is the fact that he can knock down FTs. And thats HUGE at the end of games which you cant rely on Dwight to do. BUT, Dwight is still the best C in the league. Just too much of an athletic beast. What he gives up in length he certainly makes up for his athleticism. Bynum is simply not capable of putting up a 45-22 night like Dwight just did.

His jumper is nonexistant, outside of the paint his game is lacking to say the least. Dwight can make very quick moves and the running hook has become a goto move in the last two seasons. Bynum maybe more skilled than Dwight, when he catches it 5 feet from the basket (his game from the block consists of 2-3 backdown dribbles), but Dwight's the better (more efficient/productive) offensive player, period. As for FTs, Bynum shoots only 56%, nothing special there and Dwight showed tonight that he too can make them when they matter (12-15 to finish the game)... Factor in how much ground he covers defensively, his quick hands, quick feet, ability to pass out of double teams, dominate the offensive glass and alter/block a shot and still recover to grab the board (leads the league in rebounding at 15.2rpg after tonight); and it's not even close.

Dwight would be a Top 3 center at worst in any era (except in the 90s; 4th behind Shaq, Dream and DRob), he's just that good.

rockbottom2010
01-13-2012, 06:32 AM
are they both on crack lol....d12 all day

tcav701
01-13-2012, 06:50 AM
42 and 23.

/thread.

kurivaimu
01-13-2012, 08:14 AM
Overall Bynum is a better center than Dwight. Dwight is better defensively, but seriously lacks offensive moves. Usually he just muscles himself to the basket for dunks, but against good defensive teams with solid bigs he strugless. He has no midrange jumper, literally no post moves and his free-throws suck which is a huge factor in crunch time when opposing teams deploy a hack-a-Dwight.
Bynum, although is slightly worse on the defensive end, is still one of the NBAs best, and his offensive repertoire is much much better.

tcav701
01-13-2012, 09:08 AM
I cant believe people are actually buying this.

Its amazing how much judgement people are putting in the first few weeks of the season. This would be like saying Lowry is better than DWill because he technically has better numbers right now. (Even though D12 is having anything but a slow start)

Nobody gets doubled team and hacked more than D12. And not a single team would take Bynum over Dwight. Bynum has closed the gap, but the gap is still wider than and position in proffesional basketball.

Its amazing how many mindless ESPN drones we have on this site.

Swashcuff
01-13-2012, 09:28 AM
Do you guys want to hear the most ironic thing in the world however?

The last two players in league history with at least 45 points and 23 rebounds in a single game.... were..... yup you guessed it right Chris Webber and Shaquille O'Neal.

Webber had 51 and 26 in a loss against Indy in a game in which he shot the basketball 47 times and only got to the line 6 times. Shaq had 61 and 23 while shooting 24 of 35 from the field.

These two knuckleheads criticize Dwight and he comes and prove to them that he can produce near their level (in Webber's case even better).

bucketss
01-13-2012, 10:18 AM
ohh well i guess you dont need to trade him for dwight than...

bucketss
01-13-2012, 10:22 AM
Overall Bynum is a better center than Dwight. Dwight is better defensively, but seriously lacks offensive moves. Usually he just muscles himself to the basket for dunks, but against good defensive teams with solid bigs he strugless. He has no midrange jumper, literally no post moves and his free-throws suck which is a huge factor in crunch time when opposing teams deploy a hack-a-Dwight.
Bynum, although is slightly worse on the defensive end, is still one of the NBAs best, and his offensive repertoire is much much better.

dwight is a more dominat scorer and is harder to stop on that end.. how is bynum a better center i dont get it, bynum is not only slightly worse on defense, dwight is 3 time dpoy and is the best C in the game by a large margin stop this

Sly Guy
01-13-2012, 10:29 AM
the one time I saw him play this year I was very impressed, but as someone who doesn't see him play regularly, I'm not sure I can accurately assess the statements by shaq and c-web

MickeyMgl
01-13-2012, 10:43 AM
Agreed, I believe Bynum would put up better numbers than Dwight given he was the main man, he also is the only center to really slow down Dwight.

When has Andrew Bynum ever slowed down Dwight Howard?

MickeyMgl
01-13-2012, 10:44 AM
It isn't THAT much of a stretch when you think about it. Both elite defenders thought Howard is probably still at another level

Andrew Bynum is not an elite defender.

pedro_dude0980
01-13-2012, 10:45 AM
I just got done reading the comment about magic johnson commenting on Lebron James. In a nutshell it was comparing Kobe to LeBron and stating that Kobe is better than LeBron because he has 5 championships, 3 on his own without Shaq. If you took this argument and used it for Bynum vs Dwight, then respectively Bynum is better than Dwight because he has more rings than Dwight. Dwight will never be the best center until he can win a championship on his own without superstar help. Also, one of those championships for Bynum came against Dwight and his lack of talent, but talented team. I also think this will be the case for LeBron if he does win a championship with the Heat. It will probably never be enough until he wins on his own, like he should have with Cleveland, like Kobe has proven without Shaq. I hope Dwight realizes this and then after he has gotten Orlando a championship then he can move onto a bigger market, like a parting gift to all the faithful fans.

So Kobe = Bynum (championships, offensivley better)

LeBron = Dwight (physicaly dominant, game changers, no rings)

icon1914
01-13-2012, 10:47 AM
Dwight... Even in Bynum's "career month" is still topping him in almost every stat, Defensive and Offensive....

And you can say if Bynum was the #1 option he would do this, and do that... We don't know that... What we do know is Dwight is Doubled teamed because he is the focus the entire Magic Offense, and still puts up amazing numbers... Bynum is a second option that is not the focal point of every teams defense... They are not on the same level... Not yet..

MickeyMgl
01-13-2012, 10:52 AM
Bynum cant play off the double team at this point. Hes not used to it so hes making a lot of TOs and bad decisions when teams double him. However, hes bigger, longer and more skilled offensively than Howard. His footwork is better at this point, and he has a soft jumper. Lastly the aspect that adds to his value is the fact that he can knock down FTs. And thats HUGE at the end of games which you cant rely on Dwight to do. BUT, Dwight is still the best C in the league. Just too much of an athletic beast. What he gives up in length he certainly makes up for his athleticism. Bynum is simply not capable of putting up a 45-22 night like Dwight just did.

Bynum is discovering this season that more involvement in the course of a game means more fatigue, and more fatigue means a lower FT%.

ziglur
01-13-2012, 10:52 AM
Oneal said the Lakers would be the favorite because they would be,since the media thinks Howard is so great but he thinks Andrew is better. They would be considered the favorites to everybody else. The Heat and the Lakers now need a conventional offense a point guard who distributes and not Lebron and Kobe occupying the ball 90 percent of the time. Neither play well off the ball.

The Final Boss
01-13-2012, 11:14 AM
Bynum is the better all-around C, Howard is an ESPN highlight. The NBA Forum is full of idiot teenagers who don't know **** about basketball, who argue who's better between Jordan and Bryant when they've only read about Jordan. C'mon, guys, it's getting pretty damn embarrassing in here. Bynum is clearly the better all-around C, although a case can be made about Howard's supporting cast.

The Final Boss
01-13-2012, 11:16 AM
Oneal said the Lakers would be the favorite because they would be,since the media thinks Howard is so great but he thinks Andrew is better. They would be considered the favorites to everybody else. The Heat and the Lakers now need a conventional offense a point guard who distributes and not Lebron and Kobe occupying the ball 90 percent of the time. Neither play well off the ball.

And no one can play like Kobe Bryant with the ball, so what's your point?

Swashcuff
01-13-2012, 11:22 AM
Bynum is the better all-around C, Howard is an ESPN highlight. The NBA Forum is full of idiot teenagers who don't know **** about basketball, who argue who's better between Jordan and Bryant when they've only read about Jordan. C'mon, guys, it's getting pretty damn embarrassing in here. Bynum is clearly the better all-around C, although a case can be made about Howard's supporting cast.

What makes Bynum clearly better all-round C exactly? The fact that he has a better array of post moves than Dwight? What else?

The Ooh Child
01-13-2012, 11:22 AM
Shaq is a hater, and Webber was probably high

THE_G.O.A.T.
01-13-2012, 11:24 AM
I just lost a lot of respect for Shaq and Chris Webber. Thats a pretty stupid comment.

Rockice_8
01-13-2012, 11:25 AM
Not even close. I love that Dwight goes out and drop 46 and 23 or something like that. I'm sorry but Bynum doesn't have a game like that in him.

I'm mean Bynum may have smoother post moves but I still think Dwight is better offensively shoots a higher %, more efficient, and scores more points. Defensively it's not even close. This is just a few idiots trying to stir the pot.

12 good games or whatever from Bynum doesn't make you the 2nd best center in teh league yet. Still need to see him prove it for a full year.

Avenged
01-13-2012, 11:34 AM
Shaq is just a Dwight "hater", and it's not a secret.

Their numbers are not that off in comparison but Dwight is doing all of this as the centerpiece of the Magic whereas Bynum was putting in work as the 3rd option. The past few games Bynum has been seeing double teams and has been a primary focus in the paint which has resulted in his production dropping off.

I mean unless you consider Bynum a top 3-5 player.... I don't see how Bynum is better...

Gibby23
01-13-2012, 11:42 AM
He isn't.

The Final Boss
01-13-2012, 12:00 PM
What makes Bynum clearly better all-round C exactly? The fact that he has a better array of post moves than Dwight? What else?

Howard struggles to score 20 points as a first option even when shooting 20 free-throws a game. He has zero post moves, no mid-range game, and his passing is atrocious. Bynum puts up 17 as a 3rd option, has a nice post game, makes free-throws, and is an underrated passer. Howard only averages one rebound more than Bynum while being the primary rebounder on his team and doesn't play next to another seven footer like Bynum does. The two average the same in the blocks department and Bynum alters just as many shots. Please show me where Howard excels at that Bynum isn't comparable or better at. Bynum I believe started playing organized ball either as a senior in HS or in HS, meaning he's waaay ahead of his development.

The Final Boss
01-13-2012, 12:02 PM
Shaq is just a Dwight "hater", and it's not a secret.

Their numbers are not that off in comparison but Dwight is doing all of this as the centerpiece of the Magic whereas Bynum was putting in work as the 3rd option. The past few games Bynum has been seeing double teams and has been a primary focus in the paint which has resulted in his production dropping off.

I mean unless you consider Bynum a top 3-5 player.... I don't see how Bynum is better...

Right because PSD teenagers ranking players passes as reality in these parts.

omdigga
01-13-2012, 12:04 PM
shaq is definitely hating... and CWebb is just wrong..

Gibby23
01-13-2012, 12:06 PM
Right because PSD teenagers ranking players passes as reality in these parts.

Im pretty sure all the experts rank Howard higher. Last night, Howard put Shaq and Webbers claim to bed.

DC Laker
01-13-2012, 12:11 PM
You have to understand SHAQ'S Perspective!!!

Howard may be the defensive player of the year, but does that mean that he could stop Shaq when they played each other???? ummmm NO!!! So Shaq doesn't really respect his impact on D!!!

Shaq sees Howard as a guy who is athletic, but couldn't score against him AND couldn't stop him on the other end either!

In Bynum Shaq sees a guy who is taller and longer then Howard, and clearly has the ability to go left and right, shoot hooks, and use power. He has a balanced and more complete offensive attack.

I just don't think Shaq cares about the D, because in his mind he could drop 40 on either one! At least Bynum could score on Shaq!

Patman
01-13-2012, 12:12 PM
I can't believe that people actually believe that at the momment Bynum is actually better on offense. Bynum get's the ball very deep most of the time and still only has a FG% of 51.4 . His Offensive numbers accross the board (except for FT%) are worse then Howards. While Howard is the main focus on the opposing defense and has to be the man in Orlando he still manages to have a higher ORTG and lower TOV%. If you watch laker games you see that Bynum profits heavily from the Attention Kobe gets and even the Attention the Defense has to pay to Gasol. Bynum doesn't handle double teams well and will have to learn quickly because he'll see more of them in the future, if he keeps it up.

On defense it's not even a contest. Bynum isn't as quick as howard and can't defend the P'n'R as good. He has to get better at positioning himself. Howard can handle nearly everything an offense throws at him.

Let's see how Bynum does over the course of the season we're 8 games in and Bynum had spurts before, if he can keep it up and improve he may one day challenge Dwight.

Gram
01-13-2012, 12:13 PM
Has CousinsEvansDuo come in and argued that Cousins is the best C in the league yet?

joehieronymus
01-13-2012, 12:21 PM
shaq probably thinks tebow is the best quarterback in the nfl, too...webber needs to call a timeout & think things over

DC Laker
01-13-2012, 12:23 PM
I can't believe that people actually believe that at the momment Bynum is actually better on offense. Bynum get's the ball very deep most of the time and still only has a FG% of 51.4 . His Offensive numbers accross the board (except for FT%) are worse then Howards. While Howard is the main focus on the opposing defense and has to be the man in Orlando he still manages to have a higher ORTG and lower TOV%. If you watch laker games you see that Bynum profits heavily from the Attention Kobe gets and even the Attention the Defense has to pay to Gasol. Bynum doesn't handle double teams well and will have to learn quickly because he'll see more of them in the future, if he keeps it up.

On defense it's not even a contest. Bynum isn't as quick as howard and can't defend the P'n'R as good. He has to get better at positioning himself. Howard can handle nearly everything an offense throws at him.

Let's see how Bynum does over the course of the season we're 8 games in and Bynum had spurts before, if he can keep it up and improve he may one day challenge Dwight.

I don't care about numbers, Bynum clearly has a more refind offensive game. He has more moves, the ability to score with both hands, and is way more effective.

Anyone who says that Bynum has it easier because of the way LA plays is INSANE!!!

The Lakers can't hit a 3 to save their lives!!! They create LITTLE free space for Bynum, and havign Gasol makes it even tighter in the paint.

Orland jaxs a MILLION 3's and is one of the most OPEN offensive teams in the league!!!

sp1derm00
01-13-2012, 12:27 PM
Oneal said the Lakers would be the favorite because they would be,since the media thinks Howard is so great but he thinks Andrew is better. They would be considered the favorites to everybody else. The Heat and the Lakers now need a conventional offense a point guard who distributes and not Lebron and Kobe occupying the ball 90 percent of the time. Neither play well off the ball.

Have you seen Kobe play at all this season?

Kobe has been playing excellent of the ball.

http://www.hoopdata.com/player.aspx?name=Kobe%20Bryant

Take a look at Kobe's AS% this season. While his 3-9ft and 10-15ft %'s remain similar, his 16-23ft and "at rim" FG's AS% have jumped way up.

Kobe is moving without the ball a lot more than before, and it's looking fantastic.

This is also why Mike Brown, Dfish, and Matt Barnes have all come out and said that Kobe has been taking shots within the offense (for the most part)... even if his shot attempts have gone up.

Hellcrooner
01-13-2012, 12:33 PM
Howard struggles to score 20 points as a first option even when shooting 20 free-throws a game. He has zero post moves, no mid-range game, and his passing is atrocious. Bynum puts up 17 as a 3rd option, has a nice post game, makes free-throws, and is an underrated passer. Howard only averages one rebound more than Bynum while being the primary rebounder on his team and doesn't play next to another seven footer like Bynum does. The two average the same in the blocks department and Bynum alters just as many shots. Please show me where Howard excels at that Bynum isn't comparable or better at. Bynum I believe started playing organized ball either as a senior in HS or in HS, meaning he's waaay ahead of his development.

`Bynum ha the advantage that teams CANT afford to put double teams on him for the most part because that would leave either Pau or kobe unmarked .

Oddly enought the last 4 games they ahve started putting double teams on him.

The result is 4 wins for the lakers because kobe and pau have been open to receive a pass and score and his numbers PLUMBETING because he has NO idea on how to get rid of the double team.

Bynum if traded to orlando ( withouth pau) and having to be the first option is not gonna be nice to watch.,

Heatcheck
01-13-2012, 12:39 PM
Shaq also said "dallas will be alright, they got my man VC and Delonte West"... so i dont take his comments too seriously

(whether they'll be alright or not, i doubt its ultimately going to be because of west and vc)

Swashcuff
01-13-2012, 12:41 PM
Howard struggles to score 20 points as a first option even when shooting 20 free-throws a game.

:speechless:

Howard struggles? Have you seen Dwight Howard play? He is often triple teammed inside and yet still is one of the most efficient scorers in the history of the game at his position. Dwight averages just over 11 free throws a game not 20 and as far as him being a first option I think you need to watch more Orlando games because during the course of Dwight Howard's career that team has done a horrible job of getting the ball inside to him when he's demanding it. That is something which only changed last season.


He has zero post moves,

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=slOlB_LfB-o

Though anyone can put a video like that together the mere mention that Dwight has zero post moves is ridiculous. He may not have a go to move but his slow running hook has now become improved to the point where he's making it at a high % and he's also added a drop step to it, he has developed a quick up and under move, he has GREAT positioning which is why he routinely leads the league in dunks (ask Shaq how effective positioning can lead to easy dunks thus making this a great low post tactic). Now he's proving to be more and more effective when he attempts his off the dribble spin move and not turning the ball over as much as he did in past years when he tried such.


no mid-range game,

Who has mid range game at the C? All low post natural Cs in the league who attempt to actually have a mid range game is atrocious at it. It's not just Dwight you know.


and his passing is atrocious.

Really because his ability to pass out of the double team and find the open man on the perimeter is being viewed as the best one of in the game among Cs currently. His AST% is #6 among starting Cs this season and its a part of his game that he worked on a lot in this off season and has showed dividends early on this season. Way better than Bynum in that regard.


Bynum puts up 17 as a 3rd option,

Wait I thought Kobe said Gasol was the third option? Either way had Dwight been on that team he'd be the undisputed #2 and on nights like last night Kobe would have actually deferred to him.


has a nice post game, makes free-throws,

The only two aspects that he's clearly better than Dwight in.


and is an underrated passer.

Not really he's rated quite accurately in that regard. He's actually good but not great.


Howard only averages one rebound more than Bynum while being the primary rebounder on his team and doesn't play next to another seven footer like Bynum does.

And we're basing this on 8 games right? Instead of a career in which Dwight Howard has proven that he's one of the greatest board eaters to play the game. You're right though 8 games is more than enough of sample size to tell us all we need to know about each player's rebounding.


The two average the same in the blocks department and Bynum alters just as many shots.

Total and complete lack of understanding on not only shot blocking but interior D on the whole. Dwight owns his painted area no one comes in an even attempts to get near the rim without Dwight being on them this presence in itself is why you'd see Dwight not ranking as highly in the shot blocking arena (same as KG who is arguably the greatest defensive PF ever though he was never known as a great shot blocker at he position). And again you're basing your entire statistical argument on 8 other than the player's entire body of work how much sense does that make?


Please show me where Howard excels at that Bynum isn't comparable or better at. Bynum I believe started playing organized ball either as a senior in HS or in HS, meaning he's waaay ahead of his development.

Well if the only aspect of defense in which you're going to mention is shot blocking and shot altering or whatever then you clearly think that DeAndre Jordan is better defensively than any other C in the league currently.

There is MUCH more to interior defense than just shot blocking/altering. Dwight is a ruler of the paint and as good as Bynum is defensively he isn't on that level. Though Dwight shys away from physicality at times and isn't the best individual defensive C around he's still better in that regard that Andrew Bynum.

While we're on the topic of stats however don't you think its a damn shame that despite the fact that Bynum has more post moves and is a better free throw shooter is more skilled offensive Dwight Howard is still a more effective and efficient scorer? Funny isn't it. You'd figure that Dwight not having anyone to take the pressure off of him and being doubled and tripled every single game would equate to him being a less efficient player but that isn't the case however. Quite interesting.

Dwight may not be more skilled offensively but he has a bigger impact and is more efficient, he's the ultimate impact player on D in today's NBA, he's a better passer, he reads opposing defenses well and finds himself in great position on many occasions and takes great care of his body which is why he cant continually perform at a high level during the course of each season without facing any major injury concerns.

Lastly all the excuses you keep making for Bynum eg scoring 17 as a 3rd (well actually 2nd) option are meaningless. Had Dwight been in Bynum's position he'd still score 20 a game. The design of the Orlando Magic offense is the reason why Dwight isn't more of a force inside night in night out since they aren't heavily reliant on his post play for their offense in every given game.

3RDASYSTEM
01-13-2012, 12:47 PM
SHAQ is saying this to take a jab at KB/DWIGHT,both...he killed 2 birds with 1 stone,SHAQ knows what he is doing getting at both of his non fav NBA peers(just basing it off the KB fued and the SUPERMAN moniker that DH uses now)

nickdymez
01-13-2012, 01:32 PM
As soon as i saw the tittle of this, I knew it would turn into a Laker Bash thread. PSD is good for Laker bash threads.

Swashcuff
01-13-2012, 01:42 PM
As soon as i saw the tittle of this, I knew it would turn into a Laker Bash thread. PSD is good for Laker bash threads.

Not a single person in this entire thread has bashed the Lakers. Everyone has been bashing Shaq. Hell 9/10 Laker fans in this thread disagreed with Shaq.

LAKERMANIA
01-13-2012, 01:47 PM
Drew is definitely the second best in the league easily, I don't know about first though lol Dwight is just too good especially after last night's game

RLundi
01-13-2012, 01:47 PM
As soon as i saw the tittle of this, I knew it would turn into a Laker Bash thread. PSD is good for Laker bash threads.

All you're doing is inciting and instigating the very thing you supposedly expect to happen.

Raph12
01-13-2012, 02:06 PM
Bynum is the better all-around C, Howard is an ESPN highlight. The NBA Forum is full of idiot teenagers who don't know **** about basketball, who argue who's better between Jordan and Bryant when they've only read about Jordan. C'mon, guys, it's getting pretty damn embarrassing in here. Bynum is clearly the better all-around C, although a case can be made about Howard's supporting cast.

Howard struggles to score 20 points as a first option even when shooting 20 free-throws a game. He has zero post moves, no mid-range game, and his passing is atrocious. Bynum puts up 17 as a 3rd option, has a nice post game, makes free-throws, and is an underrated passer. Howard only averages one rebound more than Bynum while being the primary rebounder on his team and doesn't play next to another seven footer like Bynum does. The two average the same in the blocks department and Bynum alters just as many shots. Please show me where Howard excels at that Bynum isn't comparable or better at. Bynum I believe started playing organized ball either as a senior in HS or in HS, meaning he's waaay ahead of his development.

I don't care about numbers, Bynum clearly has a more refind offensive game. He has more moves, the ability to score with both hands, and is way more effective.

Anyone who says that Bynum has it easier because of the way LA plays is INSANE!!!

The Lakers can't hit a 3 to save their lives!!! They create LITTLE free space for Bynum, and havign Gasol makes it even tighter in the paint.

Orland jaxs a MILLION 3's and is one of the most OPEN offensive teams in the league!!!

Bynum is not even close by comparison.

He's a lesser 1v1 defender, lesser help defender, lesser shot blocker, lesser rebounder, has slow feet, slow hands, garbage in the pnr and offensively, his game consists primarily of catching the ball 5 feet or closer. Bynum doesn't have any moves, he has good footwork around the rim, that's about it. When you postup Bynum on the block, he just does his 2-3 backdown dribbles and then turnaround/dropstep hook; that's why it's easy to double him at which point he fumbles the ball, chucks an ugly shot or throws it away (not to the right guy either).

As for Bynum being more skilled on the offensive end, IT DOESN'T MATTER! Hakeem, Ewing, DRob, etc were all much more skilled than Shaq, he still took a crap over anyone in his prime didn't he. Dwight is more dominant on offense, more points, less shots, better passing; it's not close on that end either. It's like comparing Melo to Lebron, who cares how Lebron scores, the point is, he scores and does it more efficiently.

Trade Dwight for Bynum and the Lakers become the favs, even Shaq could admit that, if you guys can't, god help you.

beliges
01-13-2012, 03:49 PM
His jumper is nonexistant, outside of the paint his game is lacking to say the least. Dwight can make very quick moves and the running hook has become a goto move in the last two seasons. Bynum maybe more skilled than Dwight, when he catches it 5 feet from the basket (his game from the block consists of 2-3 backdown dribbles), but Dwight's the better (more efficient/productive) offensive player, period. As for FTs, Bynum shoots only 56%, nothing special there and Dwight showed tonight that he too can make them when they matter (12-15 to finish the game)... Factor in how much ground he covers defensively, his quick hands, quick feet, ability to pass out of double teams, dominate the offensive glass and alter/block a shot and still recover to grab the board (leads the league in rebounding at 15.2rpg after tonight); and it's not even close.

Dwight would be a Top 3 center at worst in any era (except in the 90s; 4th behind Shaq, Dream and DRob), he's just that good.

As far as FT shooting, Bynum is and has always been much more reliable than Dwight. This is a very important aspect because down the stretch in the 4th quarter, I would trust Bynum to make 3 out of 4 FTs, but Dwight, I wouldnt wanna see at the line. No doubt Dwight is better than Bynum. but Bynum's offensive game is already more complete at this point and is getting better. Dwight's offense is generated mostly from put backs, and dunks. Obviously there are aspects of the game that Bynum is better at at this point, but theres no doubt Dwight's impact on a game is 2nd to none when it comes to centers.

nickdymez
01-13-2012, 04:01 PM
All you're doing is inciting and instigating the very thing you supposedly expect to happen.

This doesn't even make sense.

Raph12
01-13-2012, 04:09 PM
As far as FT shooting, Bynum is and has always been much more reliable than Dwight. This is a very important aspect because down the stretch in the 4th quarter, I would trust Bynum to make 3 out of 4 FTs, but Dwight, I wouldnt wanna see at the line. No doubt Dwight is better than Bynum. but Bynum's offensive game is already more complete at this point and is getting better. Dwight's offense is generated mostly from put backs, and dunks. Obviously there are aspects of the game that Bynum is better at at this point, but theres no doubt Dwight's impact on a game is 2nd to none when it comes to centers.

You're delusional, Bynum scores more of his points on putbacks and dunks than Dwight, hell he's only 46% in postups this season (which everyone regards as his "breakout" year). There isn't a single quality Bynum has that I'd prefer over Dwight, except maybe FT% (which he's shooting at under 56%). The fact that you think Bynum is a better option on the block shows just how poor your analytical skills are. Just because he has nice footwork when he catches the ball 5 feet from the basket, doesn't make him a better postplayer. In the last two years, Dwight's numbers on the block are better than anyone's in the league... Bynum is not ready to be a goto guy, he's not there yet, although I believe he could be a great center (22-12-3) he's not there right now and comparing him to Dwight is just disrespectful.

beliges
01-13-2012, 04:14 PM
You're delusional, Bynum scores more of his points on putbacks and dunks than Dwight, hell he's only 46% in postups this season (which everyone regards as his "breakout" year). There isn't a single quality Bynum has that I'd prefer over Dwight, except maybe FT% (which he's shooting at under 56%). The fact that you think Bynum is a better option on the block shows just how poor your analytical skills are. Just because he has nice footwork when he catches the ball 5 feet from the basket, doesn't make him a better postplayer. In the last two years, Dwight's numbers on the block are better than anyone's in the league... Bynum is not ready to be a goto guy, he's not there yet, although I believe he could be a great center (22-12-3) he's not there right now and comparing him to Dwight is just disrespectful.

Bynum scores the majority of his points off the post when he gets into position. He is a better offensive player than Dwight. That much is clear. His footwork is better, he is longer, his jumper is better and his hands are softer than Dwight, and most importantly of all, he is a much better FT shooter. Comparing him to Dwight is certainly NOT disrespectful when their numbers are very similar this season. Outside of offense though, Dwight is pretty much better in every aspect of the game. What he gives up in height he makes up for his athleticism. Id certainly take Dwight over Bynum on my team but as I stated above, there already are major aspects of the game Bynum is better at than Dwight.

Heediot
01-13-2012, 04:25 PM
Great players don't necessarily translate to great analysts.

Not one NBA GM would take Bynum over Howard including Mitch K.

Raph12
01-13-2012, 04:26 PM
Bynum scores the majority of his points off the post when he gets into position. He is a better offensive player than Dwight. That much is clear. His footwork is better, he is longer, his jumper is better and his hands are softer than Dwight, and most importantly of all, he is a much better FT shooter. Comparing him to Dwight is certainly NOT disrespectful when their numbers are very similar this season. Outside of offense though, Dwight is pretty much better in every aspect of the game. What he gives up in height he makes up for his athleticism. Id certainly take Dwight over Bynum on my team but as I stated above, there already are major aspects of the game Bynum is better at than Dwight.

He doesn't have a jumper, can't pass worth a damn, his FT shooting is 55.8%, he only shoots 46% in postup plays this season and 51% overall... Saying he's a offensive better player than Dwight is laughable, especially considering he's the 2nd option to Kobe, yet turns the ball over at an alarming rate and shoots a pretty low percentage.

Give me 20.5ppg-2.3apg-3.1tpg on 59FG%-46FT% as the first option over 17.1ppg-0.8apg-3.0tpg on 51FG%-56FT% as the 2nd option to Kobe (and with Pau to defer to) anyday of the week... Comparing them in any aspect right now is disrespectful.

thekmp211
01-13-2012, 04:29 PM
dwight is probably the #2 player in the league right now, so uh, no.

beliges
01-13-2012, 04:35 PM
He doesn't have a jumper, can't pass worth a damn, his FT shooting is 55.8%, he only shoots 46% in postup plays this season and 51% overall... Saying he's a offensive better player than Dwight is laughable, especially considering he's the 2nd option to Kobe, yet turns the ball over at an alarming rate and shoots a pretty low percentage.

Give me 20.5ppg-2.3apg-3.1tpg on 59FG%-46FT% as the first option over 17.1ppg-0.8apg-3.0tpg on 51FG%-56FT% as the 2nd option to Kobe (and with Pau to defer to) anyday of the week... Comparing them in any aspect right now is disrespectful.

My statement that hes a better offensive player does not mean he averages more points. It means that his footwork is better than Dwight's, his jumper is better, his post up game is more polished, and his hands are softer. I dont think many people will disagree with me that Bynum is a more polished offensive player than Dwight. I understand you want to defend your boy. But you also mention that Bynum is a #2 option while Dwight is the #1 but yet their numbers are so similar this season. Look, nobody is saying Bynum is better than Dwight because thats just silly. But Dwight's weakness is his offensive game, and Bynum has surpassed him at this point in that aspect.

5ass
01-13-2012, 04:37 PM
lol now bynum is a good free throw shooter who can be relied on at the end of games? Reality check: Bynum is shooting 55% this season, not exactly reliable. There is NOTHING Bynum does better on the court.
Honestly, Bynum is barely a better FT shooter. Bynum gets to the line only 5-6 times, Dwight goes there 10-12 times. He is shooting DOUBLE the FTs, and Bynum barley has him beat. IMO, if Bynum was a 1st option like dwight, played as many minutes as Dwight, getting fatigued and hacked like dwight, and shot as much FTs as Dwight his FT shooting % is going to take a huge hit.

beliges
01-13-2012, 04:41 PM
lol now bynum is a good free throw shooter who can be relied on at the end of games? Reality check: Bynum is shooting 55% this season, not exactly reliable. There is NOTHING Bynum does better on the court.
Honestly, Bynum is barely a better FT shooter. Bynum gets to the line only 5-6 times, Dwight goes there 10-12 times. He is shooting DOUBLE the FTs, and Bynum barley has him beat. IMO, if Bynum was a 1st option like dwight, played as many minutes as Dwight, getting fatigued and hacked like dwight, and shot as much FTs as Dwight his FT shooting % is going to take a huge hit.

Youll find out soon enough when he plays for your team. :D

5ass
01-13-2012, 04:42 PM
Youll find out soon enough when he plays for your team. :D

he is being used more this season and his FT% has already dropped, and he is only getting to the line like 7.5 times.

beliges
01-13-2012, 04:44 PM
he is being used more this season and his FT% has already dropped, and he is only getting to the line like 7.5 times.

Hes gonna be great for your Magic though.

5ass
01-13-2012, 04:46 PM
Hes gonna be great for your Magic though.

all im saying is stop overrating him

Rndy
01-13-2012, 04:49 PM
A healthy Bynum probably is better because his offense. But how long will he stay healthy. If all Centers stayed healthy Yao and Oden would probably be right in this discussion. I felt Oden had amazing post moves to go along with Dwight like defense. Poor Portland man they deserve a break in this decade.

Raph12
01-13-2012, 04:51 PM
My statement that hes a better offensive player does not mean he averages more points. It means that his footwork is better than Dwight's, his jumper is better, his post up game is more polished, and his hands are softer. I dont think many people will disagree with me that Bynum is a more polished offensive player than Dwight. I understand you want to defend your boy. But you also mention that Bynum is a #2 option while Dwight is the #1 but yet their numbers are so similar this season. Look, nobody is saying Bynum is better than Dwight because thats just silly. But Dwight's weakness is his offensive game, and Bynum has surpassed him at this point in that aspect.

He has better footwork around the basket, I'll give you that; his jumper is nonexistant and Dwight has a much better bankshot from 10-17; postgame is not close, seeming as how Dwight's much better on the block. Dwight scores better on the block, does it more efficiently and produces more as well (on about the same amount of touches this season)... Polished is irrelevant though, Melo is more polished than Lebron, but Lebron is still the better offensive player.

Dwight's avging 20.5ppg-15.2rpg-2.3apg-1.5spg-2.2bpg-3.1tpg on 58.6FG%-45.9FT%; in comparison, Bynum is avging 17.1ppg-13.9rpg-0.8apg-0.6spg-2.1bpg-3.0tpg on 51FG%-55.8FT%... That's not comparable, if you trade Dwight for Bynum and give him those touches, he avgs 22ppg on 65+FG% easy.

Bynum isn't nearly as good as an offensive player as you think he is, he's struggling in the post (only 46%), he's a reluctant/weak passer (0.8apg) and he's turnover-prone (3.0tpg). The bright spot was usually his FT shooting (usually 65-70%), but that has taken a hit as well this season.

LAKERMANIA
01-13-2012, 04:57 PM
all im saying is stop overrating him

I guess we'll see how overrated he is when he is in the Magic :D

Rndy
01-13-2012, 04:59 PM
I always wonder how great Dwight would be if he went to college. Him and Lebron both seem to still have problems with their foot work. They make up for it by being amazing athletes but they could be better.

5ass
01-13-2012, 05:03 PM
I guess we'll see how overrated he is when he is in the Magic :D

dont care, ill never root for bynum. hes a POS

Raph12
01-13-2012, 05:05 PM
I always wonder how great Dwight would be if he went to college. Him and Lebron both seem to still have problems with their foot work. They make up for it by being amazing athletes but they could be better.

And yet they're the number 1 (Lebron) and 2 (Dwight) players in the league... Guys coming out of highschool always start slow, the objective is to finish strong (ie: Kobe, KG, TMac, Amare, Bynum, etc).

LAKERMANIA
01-13-2012, 05:07 PM
dont care, ill never root for bynum. hes a POS

No one said you have to.. :eyebrow:

Necrosis
01-13-2012, 05:17 PM
this is laughable, dwight avgs more points, rebounds,blocks,assists,steals and shoots a higher field goal percentage. He is a three time defensive player of the year, has bynum ever been on an all nba defensive team?

how many times has bynum been an all star?

he is not better on offense either, sure he is a better post scorer with his back to the basket, but howard scores more efficiently by having a higher iq, drives and faces up so much better. both have crap shots.


it's not even an argument, it is better and has always been. Even if andrew keeps playing the way he is he is still playing worse then howard is right now.

mavwar53
01-13-2012, 05:30 PM
Bynum is a better offensive player, he has a decent shot, good post moves, and like Howard he can Dunk, he can't dunk the way Howard does but he can dunk.

Howard has 2 moves, the running hook, or the bullish spin move to dunk the ball, Howard is much better defensively but as far as scoring goes Bynum has strength and finesse moves Howard doesn't have much at all.

BKLYNpigeon
01-13-2012, 05:42 PM
think of it this way...

Lakers right now with Bynum are a solid playoff team.

Lakers with Dwight Howard instead of Bynum make them Title Contenders and #1 seed in the West.

reverse the roles. Put Bynum on the Magic instead of Howard. they barely make the playoffs.


Bynum might be a bit better offensively then Howard, but Howard is a defensive monster.

Raph12
01-13-2012, 05:43 PM
Bynum is a better offensive player, he has a decent shot, good post moves, and like Howard he can Dunk, he can't dunk the way Howard does but he can dunk.

Howard has 2 moves, the running hook, or the bullish spin move to dunk the ball, Howard is much better defensively but as far as scoring goes Bynum has strength and finesse moves Howard doesn't have much at all.

Blah blah blah, you guys are delusional; or upset because he dropped 45-23-3-4-2 on your team, I don't know which.

Dwight this season is 58-90 at 64% inside the restricted area, 22-42 at 52% in the paint (outside the restricted area) and 2-7 at 29% from outside the paint; in comparison, Bynum is 42-63 at 67% inside the restricted area, 12-33 at only 36% in the paint (outside the restricted area) and 0-9 from outside the paint. Bynum is also only 43% in postups this season and he's astd on 61% of his FGM; in comparison Dwight is at 55% in postups and is astd on only 54% of his FGM... No comparison here, Dwight is easily the better scorer and passer, ergo the better offensive player. Bynum doesn't have any range at all and all he has is better footwork around the rim and that's it as far as offense goes.

Robbw241
01-13-2012, 05:43 PM
Yah would be dumb for Lakers to trade Bynum for D12 so don't do it!

5ass
01-13-2012, 05:46 PM
No one said you have to.. :eyebrow:

i know, im explaining to you why ur previous post doesnt bother me, which u were clearly trying to do. I think you and beliges should grow up. I gave a decent argument as to why he's overrating Bynum's FT shooting and thats all u guys can say?

beliges
01-13-2012, 05:52 PM
i know, im explaining to you why ur previous post doesnt bother me, which u were clearly trying to do. I think you and beliges should grow up. I gave a decent argument as to why he's overrating Bynum's FT shooting and thats all u guys can say?

Dude, nobody is saying Bynum is better than Dwight. Hes obviously NOT. BUT, when you take into cosnideration offensive skills, Bynum is simply better at this point. Once again, his footwork is better, his post skills are better, his hands are softer, he has a better mid range jumper and his FTs are much better. Bynum is a reliable FT shooter for a big man while Dwight isnt. This is all people are sayng. As a Magic fan you should know that Dwight's offensive skills are lacking. He has a poor post up game (even though he has improved this season). HIs offensive game is predicated on his athleticism and his ability to dominate opponents. Bynum's offensive game is predicated on his length, his size and his ability to move his feet coupled with his soft hands. Youre not gonna find too many people outside of Orlando fans that disagree with the fact that Bynum is a better offensive player at this point in their careers. Dwight is the best C in the league today. Nobody is doubting that. But Bynum's numbers are right there on par with his.

5ass
01-13-2012, 06:00 PM
Dude, nobody is saying Bynum is better than Dwight. Hes obviously NOT. BUT, when you take into cosnideration offensive skills, Bynum is simply better at this point. Once again, his footwork is better, his post skills are better, his hands are softer, he has a better mid range jumper and his FTs are much better. Bynum is a reliable FT shooter for a big man while Dwight isnt. This is all people are sayng. As a Magic fan you should know that Dwight's offensive skills are lacking. He has a poor post up game (even though he has improved this season). HIs offensive game is predicated on his athleticism and his ability to dominate opponents. Bynum's offensive game is predicated on his length, his size and his ability to move his feet coupled with his soft hands. Youre not gonna find too many people outside of Orlando fans that disagree with the fact that Bynum is a better offensive player at this point in their careers. Dwight is the best C in the league today. Nobody is doubting that. But Bynum's numbers are right there on par with his.

yet howard can score more than bynum and do it more efficiently. When bynum starts putting up 22 points on 62% ts% while being double, triple or quadruple teamed, u can make a case for him.
You say Bynum is the superior offensive player, yet i dont see opposing teams coaches focusing their defensive game plan on stopping bynum.

beliges
01-13-2012, 06:05 PM
yet howard can score more than bynum and do it more efficiently. When bynum starts putting up 22 points on 62% ts% while being double, triple or quadruple teamed, u can make a case for him.
You say Bynum is the superior offensive player, yet i dont see opposing teams coaches focusing their defensive game plan on stopping bynum.

Yes, Dwight averages more points. Nobody is debating that. Yet, the majority of his points come from put backs and dunks. Not from isolation post up plays. For Bynum, its the exact opposite. The majority of his points come from isolation post up plays. Dwight's athleticism allows him to dominate the rim around the basket offensively. Its more athleticism than it is skill for Dwight. For Bynum, its much more skill than it is athleticism. Thats the difference between the two. Once again, youre not gonna find too many non-Magic fans that disagree with this sentiment. But I understand why you need to back up your boy.

Raph12
01-13-2012, 06:05 PM
Dude, nobody is saying Bynum is better than Dwight. Hes obviously NOT. BUT, when you take into cosnideration offensive skills, Bynum is simply better at this point. Once again, his footwork is better, his post skills are better, his hands are softer, he has a better mid range jumper and his FTs are much better. Bynum is a reliable FT shooter for a big man while Dwight isnt. This is all people are sayng. As a Magic fan you should know that Dwight's offensive skills are lacking. He has a poor post up game (even though he has improved this season). HIs offensive game is predicated on his athleticism and his ability to dominate opponents. Bynum's offensive game is predicated on his length, his size and his ability to move his feet coupled with his soft hands. Youre not gonna find too many people outside of Orlando fans that disagree with the fact that Bynum is a better offensive player at this point in their careers. Dwight is the best C in the league today. Nobody is doubting that. But Bynum's numbers are right there on par with his.

Bynum's offensive numbers suck, go check out these two websites (http://www.mysynergysports.com/?lid=hardwoodpa and http://www.nba.com/statscube/), compare the offensive game of Bynum's to Dwight's...

Bynum is a lowly 43.4% in post plays run for him, while Dwight is 54.9% in his post plays. I don't care how Dwight does it, but he does it more efficiently and is more productive than Bynum in the post, ergo his postgame is better. Bynum is only 36% (12-33) in the paint, outside of the restricted area and 0-9 outside of the paint; Dwight is 52% (22-42) in the paint, outside of the restricted area and 2-7 outside of the paint in comparison. Dwight is better than Bynum in every way offensively, there isn't a single thing Bynum does better besides FTs (which he sucks at as well).

Bynum doesn't have any range, his postgame is mediocre at best, his passing is horrid and he only shoots FTs at 56%; you're really comparing his offensive game to Dwight's? That's laughable dude, I'm always the guy backing Bynum up in the Magic forum, but if you think he's even close to Dwight in any aspect of the game, you're delusional.

ADDED:


Yes, Dwight averages more points. Nobody is debating that. Yet, the majority of his points come from put backs and dunks. Not from isolation post up plays. For Bynum, its the exact opposite. The majority of his points come from isolation post up plays. Dwight's athleticism allows him to dominate the rim around the basket offensively. Its more athleticism than it is skill for Dwight. For Bynum, its much more skill than it is athleticism. Thats the difference between the two. Once again, youre not gonna find too many non-Magic fans that disagree with this sentiment. But I understand why you need to back up your boy.

Wrong again, look at those two websites and you'll see that Dwight score much more than Bynum and does it more efficiently in the post and in isos. Bynum needs his teammates to create for him (astd on 61% of his FGM) and needs to score more on putbacks/dunks. Bynum only uses his size, his footwork is nice, but that's about it, he's good in the restricted area, push him out a little and he's a dud.

beliges
01-13-2012, 06:09 PM
Bynum's offensive number suck, go check out these two websites (http://www.mysynergysports.com/?lid=hardwoodpa and http://www.nba.com/statscube/), compare the offensive game of Bynum's to Dwight's...

Bynum is a lowly 43.4% in post plays run for him, while Dwight is 54.9% in his post plays. I don't care how Dwight does it, but he does it more efficiently and is more productive than Bynum in the post, ergo his postgame is better. Bynum is only 36% (12-33) in the paint, outside of the restricted area and 0-9 outside of the paint; Dwight is 52% (22-42) in the paint, outside of the restricted area and 2-7 outside of the paint in comparison. Dwight is better than Bynum in every way offensively, there isn't a single thing Bynum does better besides FTs (which he sucks at as well).

Bynum doesn't have any range, his postgame is mediocre at best, his passing is horrid and he only shoots FTs at 56%; you're really comparing his offensive game to Dwight's? That's laughable dude, I'm always the guy backing Bynum up in the Magic forum, but if you think he's even close to Dwight in any aspect of the game, you're delusional.

Ill tell you again exactly what aspects of the game Bynum is better. First off lets start off by stating, this year Bynum's numbers are essentially equal to Dwight's. Furthermore, Bynum has better footwork. Hes more skilled in the post. He is a better shooter from 15 ft. He is a much better FT shooter. He has a much softer touch. All these aspects, Bynum is better. Dwight is still obviously the better player so relax. But again, youre not gonna find too many NON MAGIC fans that disagree with this sentiment because well simply, its the truth.

Dolfan305
01-13-2012, 06:11 PM
Dwight averages more points, rebounds, blocks, steals, assists, fg%. I don't care if Bynum is more "skilled" than Dwight. There are definitely players more skilled than Lebron , but not better. Dwight just produces 5x more than Bynum, period.

Raph12
01-13-2012, 06:14 PM
Ill tell you again exactly what aspects of the game Bynum is better. First off lets start off by stating, this year Bynum's numbers are essentially equal to Dwight's. Furthermore, Bynum has better footwork. Hes more skilled in the post. He is a better shooter from 15 ft. He is a much better FT shooter. He has a much softer touch. All these aspects, Bynum is better. Dwight is still obviously the better player so relax. But again, youre not gonna find too many NON MAGIC fans that disagree with this sentiment because well simply, its the truth.

His numbers aren't close, he shoots a horrid percentage from the floor and the only reason it isn't at his postplay percentage of a lowly 43.4% is because of his teammates and his putbacks/dunks. He hasn't made a shot outside of the paint all season so I don't know where you get the "better shooter" thing... I agree he has better footwork when at the rim, push him outside and he just tries to bully to the basket.

The point is that Dwight's better in the post than Bynum, better at scoring and passing; egro the better offensive player on the block, the rest is irrelevant.

It's nice that you didn't respond to any of the stats I posted, your boy getting destroyed in each and every aspect of scoring the ball. I haven't even talked about Dwight on the glass or in the pnr, both areas he kills Bynum in offensively. You're obviously a Bynum-fanboy and won't admit to his defeat, but let me say it one more time; there is nothing Bynum does on the court better than Dwight, besides FTs.

5ass
01-13-2012, 06:16 PM
Ill tell you again exactly what aspects of the game Bynum is better. First off lets start off by stating, this year Bynum's numbers are essentially equal to Dwight's. Furthermore, Bynum has better footwork. Hes more skilled in the post. He is a better shooter from 15 ft. He is a much better FT shooter. He has a much softer touch. All these aspects, Bynum is better. Dwight is still obviously the better player so relax. But again, youre not gonna find too many NON MAGIC fans that disagree with this sentiment because well simply, its the truth.

Your overating bynum, theres really no argument that bynum is a better offensive player, Raph cleared that up, bynum's not a "much better FT shooter", i already explained why. Not sure why u still disagree.

5ass
01-13-2012, 06:18 PM
look at it this way, Al Jefferson has better "offensive skills" than howard, but who would i want to feed the ball to if i could choose? im taking dwight's 62% ts% than Al's 51%. Thats all that really matters

beliges
01-13-2012, 06:21 PM
His numbers aren't close, he shoots a horrid percentage from the floor and the only reason it isn't at his postplay percentage of a lowly 43.4% is because of his teammates and his putbacks/dunks. He hasn't made a shot outside of the paint all season so I don't know where you get the "better shooter" thing... I agree he has better footwork when at the rim, push him outside and he just tries to bully to the basket.

The point is that Dwight's better in the post than Bynum, better at scoring and passing, the rest is irrelevant.

Bynum 17.1ppg, 14 RPG and 2 BPG

Dwight 20PPG, 15RPG and 2BPG.

I think those numbers are very similar. ALso take into consideration Dwight is the #1 option and Bynum is #2 option.

Regardless, Dwight isnt better in the post. Hes not a good post player. He has poor foot work, doesnt have soft hands and is not a good FT shooter. Bynum is better in all those aspects and as I have stated over and over again, I am yet to come across a non-Magic fan who disagrees with me. I understand why you want to back your boy because obviously you have some attachment to him as your franchise player, but Bynum's offensive game is more skilled and polished than Dwight's. Whether you agree with this or not does not change the fact that is simply is.

Rockice_8
01-13-2012, 06:30 PM
Bynum 17.1ppg, 14 RPG and 2 BPG

Dwight 20PPG, 15RPG and 2BPG.

I think those numbers are very similar. ALso take into consideration Dwight is the #1 option and Bynum is #2 option.

Regardless, Dwight isnt better in the post. Hes not a good post player. He has poor foot work, doesnt have soft hands and is not a good FT shooter. Bynum is better in all those aspects and as I have stated over and over again, I am yet to come across a non-Magic fan who disagrees with me. I understand why you want to back your boy because obviously you have some attachment to him as your franchise player, but Bynum's offensive game is more skilled and polished than Dwight's. Whether you agree with this or not does not change the fact that is simply is.


I'm not a Magic fan and I disagree. It's simply is? I doubt that. Who cares if he has better foot work or smooth post moves. Dwight is more efficient, scores more points, and shoots a better FG%. The only thing Bynum does better then Howard is shoot FT's and not by much.

Do you have any idea what Dwight would do with Kobe and Pau? Dwight is the focal point of every defense which is simply not the case for Bynum with guys like Kobe and Pau to take the pressure off him.

Dwight is better then Bynum by alot.

beliges
01-13-2012, 06:32 PM
I'm not a Magic fan and I disagree. It's simply is? I doubt that. Who cares if he has better foot work or smooth post moves. Dwight is more efficient, scores more points, and shoots a better FG%. The only thing Bynum does better then Howard is shoot FT's and not by much.

Do you have any idea what Dwight would do with Kobe and Pau? Dwight is the focal point of every defense which is simply not the case for Bynum with guys like Kobe and Pau to take the pressure off him.

Dwight is better then Bynum by alot.

Well considering my point the entire time was that Bynum is not better than Dwight but better in footwork and post up game, you pretty much agreed with me here. SO thats what I was saying the entire time. And if Dwight played along Pau and Kobe (which is most probably will :D), he would average fewer points, around the same rebounds and the same amount of blocks. Kind of what Bynum is averaging right now.

Tony_Starks
01-13-2012, 06:37 PM
Bynum is much better fundamentally, whereas Dwight has more heart. I'd still give Dwight the slight edge but I would like to see what would happen if Dwight was a number 3 option and Bynum was the man. Numbers would be a lot different.....

Raph12
01-13-2012, 06:54 PM
First here are the sources I used for this debate:
http://www.basketball-reference.com/
http://www.nba.com/statscube/
http://www.82games.com/
http://www.mysynergysports.com/?lid=hardwoodpa

Let me start by saying, there has been a lot of debate going on in the NBA forum on how Bynum is not far off or is better than Dwight at certain things; in bold are the things each player did better

Let's start with the basics "per game" stats:
Dwight - 20.5PPG 15.2RPG 2.3APG 1.6SPG 2.2BPG 3.1TPG 2.9FPG on 58.6FG% 45.9FT% in 37.7MPG
Bynum - 17.1PPG 13.9RPG 0.8APG 0.6SPG 2.1BPG 3.0TPG 2.1FPG on 51.4FG% 55.8FT% in 34.3MPG

Now we look at "advanced" stats:
Dwight - 26.0PER 56.7TS% 58.6EFG% 23.6TRB% 11.0AST% 2.2STL% 4.5BLK% 14.6TOV% 26.2USG% 108ORTG 94DRTG .207WS48
Bynum - 21.5PER 53.6TS% 51.4EFG% 22.9TRB% 3.9AST% 1.0STL% 4.6BLK% 15.8TOV% 25.2USG% 101ORTG 92DRTG .163WS48

Taking a quick look at these numbers, anyone can tell who the better player is, the only numbers that really stand out are the passing numbers (2.3apg-3.1tpg to 0.8apg-3.0tpg) but in order to solve the arguements of the fans saying "Bynum is the better offensive player in the post", we have to go in deeper.



Now we look at the post plays ran for each player this season:

Dwight - 54.3%Time 125Plays 0.93PPP 54.9FG%(45FGM 82FGA) 51.2%Score
Bynum - 52.1%Time 73Plays 0.84PPP 43.4FG%(23FGM 53FGA) 42.5%Score

Dwight is clearly the better scoring option in the post, he produces more and does it much more efficiently than Bynum does. The fans also argue that Bynum is a better shooter than Dwight, has more range and scores on his own more, so we look even deeper.


Now we look at where both players scored most of their baskets:

Dwight - 64%(58-90)RestrictedArea 52%(22-42)PaintOutsideRA 29%(2-7)OutsidePaint 54%AST'DFGM
Bynum - 67%(42-63)RestrictedArea 36%(12-33)PaintOutsideRA 0%(0-9)OutsidePaint 61%AST'DFGM

As you can see, Dwight is clearly better than Bynum outside of the RA and is assisted less on his FGM.


...


Now this is just a few statistics to those naysayers who believe Bynum is better than Dwight in any way. Offensively, Dwight is clearly a better option on the block, I didn't bother talking about the pick-and-roll or attacking the offensive glass because I don't feel like I need to. Defensively and on the boards, we all know it isn't even close as Dwight's numbers are elite even if compared throughout history.

Any more questions? :eyebrow:

beliges
01-13-2012, 06:55 PM
Postup game, footwork, a shot and FTs Bynum is better at.

Raph12
01-13-2012, 06:58 PM
A bunch of irrelevant stuff

I just created a thread in your honor, go talk to me there.

Tony_Starks
01-13-2012, 06:58 PM
You do realize your comparing a franchise players numbers to a guy that has been a 3rd-4th option player the majority of his career right?......

Raph12
01-13-2012, 06:59 PM
Postup game, footwork, a shot and FTs Bynum is better at.

Okay you can suck on that 43% postgame and 56% freethrows Bynum has... I'm no longer interested with arguing with a brick.

Raph12
01-13-2012, 07:01 PM
You do realize your comparing a franchise players numbers to a guy that has been a 3rd-4th option player the majority of his career right?......

You do realize that efficiency should go up when you're not what the defense focuses on? :rolleyes:

Their usg rate is nearly identical so your arguement is invalid.

beliges
01-13-2012, 07:01 PM
I just created a thread in your honor, go talk to me there.

Already talked to you here. Bynum has better foorwork, has a better post up game, is more fundamental in the post, has a better shot and is better at FTs. I dont think creating a threat is gonna give you anymore credibility on this topic. Its just is what it is. Bynum is better at these things and Dwight is better at everything else. Nothing out of line here and I think the vast majority of knowledgeable NBA fans will agree.

beliges
01-13-2012, 07:03 PM
You do realize that efficiency should go up when you're not what the defense focuses on? :rolleyes:

Their usg rate is nearly identical so your arguement is invalid.

Dude, nobody is debating Dwight is more efficient, or better. Obviously hes more efficient and better. Hes an athletic freak of nature while Bynum isnt. Its just Bynum is better at certain aspects of their offensive game than Dwight is. Thats all.

Raph12
01-13-2012, 07:05 PM
Already talked to you here. Bynum has better foorwork, has a better post up game, is more fundamental in the post, has a better shot and is better at FTs. I dont think creating a threat is gonna give you anymore credibility on this topic. Its just is what it is. Bynum is better at these things and Dwight is better at everything else. Nothing out of line here and I think the vast majority of knowledgeable NBA fans will agree.

Well is a postgame that gets you points on 43% shooting is considered better than one that gives you points on 55% shooting... Give me the crappy post game.

It's Lebron over Melo all day son, all day.

Raph12
01-13-2012, 07:06 PM
Dude, nobody is debating Dwight is more efficient, or better. Obviously hes more efficient and better. Hes an athletic freak of nature while Bynum isnt. Its just Bynum is better at certain aspects of their offensive game than Dwight is. Thats all.

He's maybe more skilled, but Dwight's still the better option in the post... And it's not comparable.

Marco22
01-13-2012, 07:07 PM
Shaq and Weber is right, let the Lakers make the mistake and trade him! Then you will see. Also I trust a pro's point of view more then I trust guys who probably never played any organized ball in their lives.

beliges
01-13-2012, 07:07 PM
Well is a postgame that gets you points on 43% shooting is considered better than one that gives you points on 55% shooting... Give me the crappy post game.

It's Lebron over Melo all day son, all day.

Bynum's actually shooting somewhere arounf 52% from the field and Dwight's shooting % has little to do with his post game and much more to do with the fact that the majority of his buckets come from dunks and put backs stemming from his tremendous athleticism.\

Similarly to Melo and LBJ. While LBJ scores more points, Melo is a more skilled offensive player.

RLundi
01-13-2012, 07:10 PM
Bynum is much better fundamentally, whereas Dwight has more heart. I'd still give Dwight the slight edge but I would like to see what would happen if Dwight was a number 3 option and Bynum was the man. Numbers would be a lot different.....

It wasn't that long ago that Dwight was complaining of only getting 11 shots per game even though he was still averaging 20 when the Magic were loaded offensively. Back then, Dwight was essentially used as a decoy in Orlando's inside-out offense when they set the record for most 3's in NBA history and Lewis and Turk were up around 18-20ppg. Yet Dwight still averaged 20, quite easily might I add. Had Bynum been in that exact situation, do you think he would average similar numbers? Because I still see Dwight averaging nearly 20 a game even with Kobe jacking up 30 shots.

Swashcuff
01-13-2012, 07:12 PM
Bynum's actually shooting somewhere arounf 52% from the field and Dwight's shooting % has little to do with his post game and much more to do with the fact that the majority of his buckets come from dunks and put backs stemming from his tremendous athleticism.\

Similarly to Melo and LBJ. While LBJ scores more points, Melo is a more skilled offensive player.

So who's the better scorer? LeBron scores more and is more efficient that Melo all Melo has on LeBron is the skill, that skill however hasn't translated into success for him on that end.

RLundi
01-13-2012, 07:12 PM
Bynum's actually shooting somewhere arounf 52% from the field and Dwight's shooting % has little to do with his post game and much more to do with the fact that the majority of his buckets come from dunks and put backs stemming from his tremendous athleticism.\

Similarly to Melo and LBJ. While LBJ scores more points, Melo is a more skilled offensive player.

Really, the majority of his points?

Do you have any statistical references to support that assertion?

Raph12
01-13-2012, 07:12 PM
Bynum's actually shooting somewhere arounf 52% from the field and Dwight's shooting % has little to do with his post game and much more to do with the fact that the majority of his buckets come from dunks and put backs stemming from his tremendous athleticism.\

Similarly to Melo and LBJ. While LBJ scores more points, Melo is a more skilled offensive player.

Ugh again you disregard the stats that I posted: http://www.mysynergysports.com/?lid=hardwoodpa

In post plays run for each player, Bynum has shot 43.4% and Dwight has shot 54.9%... AM... I... GETTING... THROUGH... TO... YOU!

Bynum has been sucking in the post, Dwight's been the best post scorer in the league for the last two years, those percentages are strictly points from postplays, NOTHING ELSE!

God damn, you people are so frustrating.

beliges
01-13-2012, 07:12 PM
It wasn't that long ago that Dwight was complaining of only getting 11 shots per game even though he was still averaging 20 when the Magic were loaded offensively. Back then, Dwight was essentially used as a decoy in Orlando's inside-out offense when they set the record for most 3's in NBA history and Lewis and Turk were up around 18-20ppg. Yet Dwight still averaged 20, quite easily might I add. Had Bynum been in that exact situation, do you think he would average similar numbers? Because I still see Dwight averaging nearly 20 a game even with Kobe jacking up 30 shots.

Dude, its not that hard to comprehend. Dwight will get his points whether he gets shot attempts or not. The majority of his points come from dunks and putbacks. Hes not the type of player you isolate in the post time and time again and run your offense through. He doesnt have a great post up game and his ability to score with his back to the basket is limited due to the fact that his footwork is not great and his post up game is still lacking. He doesnt need shot attempts to score points. Hes an athletic beast.

Swashcuff
01-13-2012, 07:13 PM
First here are the sources I used for this debate:
http://www.basketball-reference.com/
http://www.nba.com/statscube/
http://www.82games.com/
http://www.mysynergysports.com/?lid=hardwoodpa

Let me start by saying, there has been a lot of debate going on in the NBA forum on how Bynum is not far off or is better than Dwight at certain things; in bold are the things each player did better

Let's start with the basics "per game" stats:
Dwight - 20.5PPG 15.2RPG 2.3APG 1.6SPG 2.2BPG 3.1TPG 2.9FPG on 58.6FG% 45.9FT% in 37.7MPG
Bynum - 17.1PPG 13.9RPG 0.8APG 0.6SPG 2.1BPG 3.0TPG 2.1FPG on 51.4FG% 55.8FT% in 34.3MPG

Now we look at "advanced" stats:
Dwight - 26.0PER 56.7TS% 58.6EFG% 23.6TRB% 11.0AST% 2.2STL% 4.5BLK% 14.6TOV% 26.2USG% 108ORTG 94DRTG .207WS48
Bynum - 21.5PER 53.6TS% 51.4EFG% 22.9TRB% 3.9AST% 1.0STL% 4.6BLK% 15.8TOV% 25.2USG% 101ORTG 92DRTG .163WS48

Taking a quick look at these numbers, anyone can tell who the better player is, the only numbers that really stand out are the passing numbers (2.3apg-3.1tpg to 0.8apg-3.0tpg) but in order to solve the arguements of the fans saying "Bynum is the better offensive player in the post", we have to go in deeper.



Now we look at the post plays ran for each player this season:

Dwight - 54.3%Time 125Plays 0.93PPP 54.9FG%(45FGM 82FGA) 51.2%Score
Bynum - 52.1%Time 73Plays 0.84PPP 43.4FG%(23FGM 53FGA) 42.5%Score

Dwight is clearly the better scoring option in the post, he produces more and does it much more efficiently than Bynum does. The fans also argue that Bynum is a better shooter than Dwight, has more range and scores on his own more, so we look even deeper.


Now we look at where both players scored most of their baskets:

Dwight - 64%(58-90)RestrictedArea 52%(22-42)PaintOutsideRA 29%(2-7)OutsidePaint 54%AST'DFGM
Bynum - 67%(42-63)RestrictedArea 36%(12-33)PaintOutsideRA 0%(0-9)OutsidePaint 61%AST'DFGM

As you can see, Dwight is clearly better than Bynum outside of the RA and is assisted less on his FGM.


...


Now this is just a few statistics to those naysayers who believe Bynum is better than Dwight in any way. Offensively, Dwight is clearly a better option on the block, I didn't bother talking about the pick-and-roll or attacking the offensive glass because I don't feel like I need to. Defensively and on the boards, we all know it isn't even close as Dwight's numbers are elite even if compared throughout history.

Any more questions? :eyebrow:

One of the best posts on PSD. Too bad it had to be merged here since this deserved its own thread. Great post :clap:

beliges
01-13-2012, 07:14 PM
So who's the better scorer? LeBron scores more and is more efficient that Melo all Melo has on LeBron is the skill, that skill however hasn't translated into success for him on that end.

Melo is more skilled on offense, has better footwork, fundamentals, post up game, jumper, etc...LBJ is more of an athletic beast who overpowers people. LBJ will put up more points, but if you need one score on one possession, Melo is better.

Swashcuff
01-13-2012, 07:15 PM
Ugh again you disregard the stats that I posted: http://www.mysynergysports.com/?lid=hardwoodpa

In post plays run for each player, Bynum has shot 43.4% and Dwight has shot 54.9%... AM... I... GETTING... THROUGH... TO... YOU!

Bynum has been sucking in the post, Dwight's been the best post scorer in the league for the last two years, those percentages are strictly points from postplays, NOTHING ELSE!

God damn, you people are so frustrating.

Skill means NOTHING if you're not being effective with it or at least as effective as the player you're being compared to.

Hakeem is the most skilled big man in the history of the game and I can guarantee that most of these guys would not take Hakeem over Shaq offensively. So why Bynum over Dwight? Because he has good footwork and finishes okay with both hands? :rolleyes:

Raph12
01-13-2012, 07:16 PM
BELIGES, STOP TALKING TO OTHER PEOPLE AND RESPOND TO WHAT I AM SAYING!


Ugh again you disregard the stats that I posted: http://www.mysynergysports.com/?lid=hardwoodpa

In post plays run for each player, Bynum has shot 43.4% and Dwight has shot 54.9%... AM... I... GETTING... THROUGH... TO... YOU!

Bynum has been sucking in the post, Dwight's been the best post scorer in the league for the last two years, those percentages are strictly points from postplays, NOTHING ELSE!

Dwight's 55% in the post while Bynum is only 43.5%, stats are from SynergySports, check it out yourself.

@Swashcuff, trust me, he just continues to ignore any of the stats I post... YOU CAN'T HANDLE THE TRUTH lol.

Swashcuff
01-13-2012, 07:17 PM
Melo is more skilled on offense, has better footwork, fundamentals, post up game, jumper, etc...LBJ is more of an athletic beast who overpowers people. LBJ will put up more points, but if you need one score on one possession, Melo is better.

Too bad a game is a wholeeeeeeeeeeee lot more than just one possession. That argument is flawed on every single level.

Seriously you're going to use a "one possession" argument to make your case?

Swashcuff
01-13-2012, 07:18 PM
BELIGES, STOP TALKING TO OTHER PEOPLE AND RESPOND TO WHAT I AM SAYING!


Ugh again you disregard the stats that I posted: http://www.mysynergysports.com/?lid=hardwoodpa

In post plays run for each player, Bynum has shot 43.4% and Dwight has shot 54.9%... AM... I... GETTING... THROUGH... TO... YOU!

Bynum has been sucking in the post, Dwight's been the best post scorer in the league for the last two years, those percentages are strictly points from postplays, NOTHING ELSE!

Dwight's 55% in the post while Bynum is only 43.5%, stats are from SynergySports, check it out yourself.

We all don't have access to Synergy. I advice you print screen the FACTS and post the screen.

Raph12
01-13-2012, 07:19 PM
We all don't have access to Synergy. I advice you print screen the FACTS and post the screen.

You do for the demo, go to the site I posted, but I'll post it anyways.

beliges
01-13-2012, 07:20 PM
BELIGES, STOP TALKING TO OTHER PEOPLE AND RESPOND TO WHAT I AM SAYING!


Ugh again you disregard the stats that I posted: http://www.mysynergysports.com/?lid=hardwoodpa

In post plays run for each player, Bynum has shot 43.4% and Dwight has shot 54.9%... AM... I... GETTING... THROUGH... TO... YOU!

Bynum has been sucking in the post, Dwight's been the best post scorer in the league for the last two years, those percentages are strictly points from postplays, NOTHING ELSE!

Dwight's 55% in the post while Bynum is only 43.5%, stats are from SynergySports, check it out yourself.

@Swashcuff, trust me, he just continues to ignore any of the stats I post... YOU CAN'T HANDLE THE TRUTH lol.

#1 your link doesnt work and comes from a noncredible source. #2, Bynum is shooting somewhere around 52% this season. #3 his footwork is clearly better than Dwight, his post game is more polished than Dwight's, his jumper is more reliable than Dwight's and his FTs are better than Dwight's. Lastly, his numners are right there on par with Dwight's this season. Even though this last aspect has nothing to do with this discussion, you can disagree with me all you want. Watching them play this season, what I stated above seems very obvious to me.

And relax dude. I understand Dwight is your boy and you dont want to admit anything bad about him. But from an outside perspective, it is what it is. Bynum is simply better at those aspects of the game.

beliges
01-13-2012, 07:23 PM
Too bad a game is a wholeeeeeeeeeeee lot more than just one possession. That argument is flawed on every single level.

Seriously you're going to use a "one possession" argument to make your case?

Obviously the game is a whollllleeeeeeeeeeeee lot more than just one possession. LBJ scores more points than Melo. But whose a more polished scorer? Its Melo. He has more of an offensive arsenal than Lebron. Are you really gonna disagree with that?

5ass
01-13-2012, 07:24 PM
#1 your link doesnt work and comes from a noncredible source. #2, Bynum is shooting somewhere around 52% this season. #3 his footwork is clearly better than Dwight, his post game is more polished than Dwight's, his jumper is more reliable than Dwight's and his FTs are better than Dwight's. Lastly, his numners are right there on par with Dwight's this season. Even though this last aspect has nothing to do with this discussion, you can disagree with me all you want. Watching them play this season, what I stated above seems very obvious to me.

And relax dude. I understand Dwight is your boy and you dont want to admit anything bad about him. But from an outside perspective, it is what it is. Bynum is simply better at those aspects of the game.

Ur so stubborn man, d12 is the superior offensive player, not even close.

RLundi
01-13-2012, 07:25 PM
Dude, its not that hard to comprehend. Dwight will get his points whether he gets shot attempts or not. The majority of his points come from dunks and putbacks. Hes not the type of player you isolate in the post time and time again and run your offense through. He doesnt have a great post up game and his ability to score with his back to the basket is limited due to the fact that his footwork is not great and his post up game is still lacking. He doesnt need shot attempts to score points. Hes an athletic beast.

:laugh2:

You're egregiously misinformed. When Dwight is on the floor, the offense is run through him because that's how the Magic get the majority of their open looks. It wouldn't kill you to check basketball-reference.com sometime to look at usage percentage.

By the way, put-backs and shots from offensive rebounding are still shot attempts. I'm unsure of what you're trying to demonstrate. Are you suggesting he scores without shooting? All his points come from free throws? Shore up that argument and please resubmit, as I'm curious what your argument is.

You claim he has bad footwork. Are you still living in the past with 2006 Dwight Howard? Because if you watch him play, you wouldn't make such an asinine statement. Yes, his footwork isn't perfect and he won't wow you with any Dream-Shakes but to assert his post-up game and footwork are bad is the height of ridiculousness.

Swashcuff
01-13-2012, 07:26 PM
#1 your link doesnt work and comes from a noncredible source. #2, Bynum is shooting somewhere around 52% this season. #3 his footwork is clearly better than Dwight, his post game is more polished than Dwight's, his jumper is more reliable than Dwight's and his FTs are better than Dwight's. Lastly, his numners are right there on par with Dwight's this season. Even though this last aspect has nothing to do with this discussion, you can disagree with me all you want. Watching them play this season, what I stated above seems very obvious to me.

And relax dude. I understand Dwight is your boy and you dont want to admit anything bad about him. But from an outside perspective, it is what it is. Bynum is simply better at those aspects of the game.

You say Synergy is not a credible source? :laugh2: :laugh2: :laugh2:

Why do you guys insist on having these discussions? Synergy is possibly the most credible source there is which is why its a pay only site. I'm sorry but I didn't read anything after you said that. Really doesn't make any sense to.

Raph12
01-13-2012, 07:27 PM
#1 your link doesnt work and comes from a noncredible source. #2, Bynum is shooting somewhere around 52% this season. #3 his footwork is clearly better than Dwight, his post game is more polished than Dwight's, his jumper is more reliable than Dwight's and his FTs are better than Dwight's. Lastly, his numners are right there on par with Dwight's this season. Even though this last aspect has nothing to do with this discussion, you can disagree with me all you want. Watching them play this season, what I stated above seems very obvious to me.

And relax dude. I understand Dwight is your boy and you dont want to admit anything bad about him. But from an outside perspective, it is what it is. Bynum is simply better at those aspects of the game.

1. LMFAO at non-credible source, NBA.com uses it
2. Bynum is only 43% in the post, he's 51.4% in the season because of his putbacks/dunks/ast'dFGM
3. His footwork 5 feet and in is better, his postgame is weak and his jumper is non-existant (0 shots made outside of the paint); I'll give you FTs

Lastly, his numbers suck, you can keep them but no one else would trade those offensive, defensive, any kind of numbers for Dwight's lol.

http://i44.tinypic.com/2r6e8gy.jpg
Look at the post play stats, not even close, hell not close anywhere across the board offensively. http://tinypic.com/r/2r6e8gy/5

Swashcuff
01-13-2012, 07:28 PM
Obviously the game is a whollllleeeeeeeeeeeee lot more than just one possession. LBJ scores more points than Melo. But whose a more polished scorer? Its Melo. He has more of an offensive arsenal than Lebron. Are you really gonna disagree with that?

Dude no one is disagreeing with that don't you understand that? No one is. All I'm saying is being more polished/skilled/talent etc offensively does NOT make you a better offensive player than another if you're not as effective as the other guy. Are you really gonna disagree with that?

beliges
01-13-2012, 07:28 PM
Ur so stubborn man, d12 is the superior offensive player, not even close.

Again, I AGREE DWIGHT IS SUPERIOR OFFENSIVELY. I mentioned a few aspects of the offensive game Bynum is better at at this point and Magic fans act like I insulted their mothers. Bynum is better in the post, has better foot work, is more fundamental, has a more reliable jumper and is better at FTs. Disagree with this all you want, it still wont change the facts.

Swashcuff
01-13-2012, 07:29 PM
1. LMFAO at non-credible source, NBA.com uses it
2. Bynum is only 43% in the post, he's 51.4% in the season because of his putbacks/dunks/ast'dFGM
3. His footwork 5 feet and in is better, his postgame is weak and his jumper is non-existant (0 shots made outside of the paint); I'll give you FTs

Lastly, his numbers suck, you can keep them but no one else would trade those offensive, defensive, any kind of numbers for Dwight's lol.

http://i44.tinypic.com/2r6e8gy.jpg
Look at the post play stats, not even close, hell not close anywhere across the board offensively. http://tinypic.com/r/2r6e8gy/5

Ralph12 just doing work.

Raph12
01-13-2012, 07:31 PM
Ralph12 just doing work.

Raph not "Ralph, but thanks I appreciate it.

Swashcuff
01-13-2012, 07:44 PM
Raph not "Ralph, but thanks I appreciate it.

My bad :o

Tony_Starks
01-13-2012, 08:03 PM
Fundamentals count for a lot. There's a reason Bynum has been able to play on one leg and still be effective while rarely getting the ball in the past. What Dwight is doing is off of sheer athleticism, similar to Lebron. Great for the regular season, but for the playoffs not so much. If he doesn't develop some reliable post moves other than a sometimey hook shot there's no way I can put him up there with the great bigs of the game. Even as big and strong as Shaq was he developed some nice moves in the paint and was a very good passer, something neither Dwight or Bynum really have added to their arsenal yet......

Swashcuff
01-13-2012, 08:07 PM
Fundamentals count for a lot. There's a reason Bynum has been able to play on one leg and still be effective while rarely getting the ball in the past. What Dwight is doing is off of sheer athleticism, similar to Lebron. Great for the regular season, but for the playoffs not so much. If he doesn't develop some reliable post moves other than a sometimey hook shot there's no way I can put him up there with the great bigs of the game. Even as big and strong as Shaq was he developed some nice moves in the paint and was a very good passer, something neither Dwight or Bynum really have added to their arsenal yet......

Despite the fact that he's one of the best defensive, best rebounders and most efficient scores at the position that doesn't matter right. I mean Patrick Ewing was a great low post player and as a result was great post season player as well right?

Why don't you guys watch Dwight Howard play a bit more before you say all he has is a sometimey hook shot or no post game whatsoever?

Tony_Starks
01-13-2012, 08:14 PM
Despite the fact that he's one of the best defensive, best rebounders and most efficient scores at the position that doesn't matter right. I mean Patrick Ewing was a great low post player and as a result was great post season player as well right?

Why don't you guys watch Dwight Howard play a bit more before you say all he has is a sometimey hook shot or no post game whatsoever?


I didn't say no post whatsoever but his hook is sometimey and not reliable. I watch him play plenty thats how I know he hasn't developed a effective passing game yet either which is essential. A lot of times he still looks like he's not sure if he wants to just get the ball and go right away or what and ends up getting double teamed because he hesitates. He should be either getting it and going or automatic kick out and repost. Albeit the people feeding him the rock aren't exactly Magic Johnson, he still has a lot of improving to do....

beasted86
01-13-2012, 09:49 PM
It probably has nothing to do with playing with two high usage players in Kobe and Gasol.

So what exactly are Dwyane Wade and LeBron James on the Heat in comparison to Chris Bosh?

Bynum is good, just not great or superstar comparison good. Laker fans should just stop comparing him to Dwight Howard just enjoy how good he has played to start the season and hope he can continue to do it.

Raph12
01-14-2012, 02:44 AM
I didn't say no post whatsoever but his hook is sometimey and not reliable. I watch him play plenty thats how I know he hasn't developed a effective passing game yet either which is essential. A lot of times he still looks like he's not sure if he wants to just get the ball and go right away or what and ends up getting double teamed because he hesitates. He should be either getting it and going or automatic kick out and repost. Albeit the people feeding him the rock aren't exactly Magic Johnson, he still has a lot of improving to do....

You obviously don't watch him enough if you believe this; sizing up the defense and having the patience to not rush your offense is a good thing, not bad... His passing game is much improved this season compared to any season prior, no hesitation when doubled and his post game looks great. He's been the best scorer in the post in the league for the last two seasons, efficient and productive... Saying you watch him doesn't help when there are stats telling a different story.

JordansBulls
01-14-2012, 04:17 PM
2 nights ago on NBATV and tonight on TNT, C-Webb and Shaq respectively stated that Andrew Bynum is the best center in the NBA. Does this give more credence to the argument since 2 Hall of Fame Big Men have gone out to say this? What are you guys' thoughts?

Shaq just doesn't like Dwight because Dwight arguably has done more than Shaq did in Orlando already (even though Orlando Shaq was a better player than Orlando Dwight by a good margin), but also because he has Superman as his nickname.

Chronz
01-14-2012, 05:11 PM
Bynums post #s won't stay that low all year.

Raph12
01-14-2012, 05:27 PM
Bynums post #s won't stay that low all year.

I agree, but even if they return to what they've been in the past two-three years, they'd still be worse than Dwight's... Dwight's numbers in the post are the best of the league in the last two years or so.

Chronz
01-14-2012, 05:59 PM
Glad your enjoying the world of possession analysis.

bovice163
01-14-2012, 06:31 PM
Shaq's opinion on the matter is irrelevant for obvious reasons, and C-Webb also said Aldridge is the best PF in the game. Dwight has been better for longer, while Bynum is barely breaking into his potential. If Bynum stays healthy while posting these #'s all year, as well as prove himself in the playoffs, then you can make this argument.

JordansBulls
01-18-2012, 11:02 PM
Dwight easily is better than Bynum.

ldawg
01-18-2012, 11:16 PM
I would not say best but he can be given time. How good can he be being only 25? He still has not peak and centers are normally late bloomers. He is still a work in progress and posting some what Howard type numbers. Like it or not if Magic goal is to keep the train moving a quality trade is better than a quantity trade. Ill take one impact player over a package of many average players, you can always get them, the nba is full of them but impact players are hard to come by. Do you know how many teams would love a big man with skills? just about all of them.


http://lakersblog.latimes.com/lakers...ht-howard.html

http://www.latimes.com/sports/basket...,2671993.story

http://www.foxsportswest.com/01/18/1...mp;feedID=3709

Raph12
01-18-2012, 11:24 PM
I would not say best but he can be given time. How good can he be being only 25? He still has not peak and centers are normally late bloomers. He is still a work in progress and posting some what Howard type numbers. Like it or not if Magic goal is to keep the train moving a quality trade is better than a quantity trade. Ill take one impact player over a package of many average players, you can always get them, the nba is full of them but impact players are hard to come by. Do you know how many teams would love a big man with skills? just about all of them.


http://lakersblog.latimes.com/lakers...ht-howard.html

http://www.latimes.com/sports/basket...,2671993.story

http://www.foxsportswest.com/01/18/1...mp;feedID=3709

Dwight just turned 26 in December so I don't see how that is relevant and the numbers aren't close... You have to look past the "per game" stats my friend.

BigCityofDreams
01-19-2012, 12:17 AM
Still have to go with Dwight as the best center in the league. The man is a beast.

D12 fan
01-19-2012, 12:21 AM
Dwight tonight 24pts 25reb,is this like his 4th 20/20 game this season,Dwight does this once every week,Bynum has 1 career 20/20 game,its not even fair to compare Bynum to Dwight.

Longhornfan1234
01-21-2012, 12:47 AM
Dwight owned Bynum today.

Avenged
01-21-2012, 01:03 AM
Dwight owns everybody. He is too quick for Bynum's knees.

ClippersE.G
01-21-2012, 03:32 AM
Haha this is a funny thread. Reminds me of the instances where Laker fans were saying Bynum was better than Dwight and that they would not trade him for him.

Howard was jumping so much higher than Bynum today it was funny