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View Full Version : Is Carlos Boozer becoming an elite defender in the NBA?



Iman Shumpert
01-07-2012, 04:15 PM
Ok, maybe not elite, but i think he is much improved compared to last season, he has a defensive rating for under 100 for the past 2 seasons with the bucks, this season he has a 91 rating so far

http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/b/boozeca01.html

his steals and blocks are up, he contests a bit more, hasnt foulded alot so far this year, he hasnt faced any true competition at the 4 after he injured zach randolph, his only competition this year has been ryan anderson, josh mcroberts, josh smith, and probably jason maxeel, none are extreme offensive threats or anything, but i think he is a much better defnder, probably a top 5 defender on the bulls this season and thats saying something, i wld sure love to have his defense on our roster instead of stoudemires, but thats a different story for a different thread, he obviously isnt a match for stoudemires legendary offense, which is near comega level

anyway, do you guys think boozer is becoming an elite defendeer?

Chi City23
01-07-2012, 04:17 PM
Is this for real?

Lakers + Giants
01-07-2012, 04:20 PM
Honestly no. He might have improved slightly since he's playing under a defensive guru in Thibs but no.

blastmasta26
01-07-2012, 04:20 PM
I'd say he's a top 5 defender in the Bulls starting lineup. :)

Defensive rating is more indicative of team defensive success than individual defensive success. This is a prime example.

jp611
01-07-2012, 04:21 PM
Troll :laugh2:

Nick O
01-07-2012, 04:22 PM
HAHAHAHAHAHAH No.... watch the eastern conference finals last year.... scratch that. just watch him play basketball

Dade County
01-07-2012, 04:22 PM
just stop it

Gators123
01-07-2012, 04:23 PM
lol

Vinylman
01-07-2012, 04:25 PM
Where's the FCUK to the NO option?

John Walls Era
01-07-2012, 04:25 PM
Defensive Rating :laugh: when the Bulls are one of the best defensively.

TheRunKiller
01-07-2012, 04:35 PM
Lmao. Funniest thread ever

Nick O
01-07-2012, 04:36 PM
okay when the fans of the player your talking about are laughing at you.... shut up

Rndy
01-07-2012, 04:41 PM
He's not good defensively but if he continues with the effort he did last night I'll be satisfied. I thought he played his best defensive game I've seen him play. He played with effort and played team defense. If he plays with effort and his rebounding ability he won't do so terrible.

GiantsSwaGG
01-07-2012, 04:42 PM
LMFAOOOOOOO Carlos Boozer? An ELITE defender?:laugh2:

-Kobe24-TJ19-
01-07-2012, 04:44 PM
lol at username

bears88
01-07-2012, 04:50 PM
I'm a bulls fan, but I had to use this :laugh::laugh: and :facepalm::facepalm:

MTL_123
01-07-2012, 04:53 PM
hahahahahahahahah Boozer a good Defender lol!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Even Bulls Fans will say he sucks at Defence

rds1488
01-07-2012, 04:55 PM
being a chicago bulls fan for 20 years now, i haven't seen a worse defender than Boozer to don a bulls jersey

rds1488
01-07-2012, 04:56 PM
read any of the bulls gt threads and you'll see how we feel about boozers defense

GoPacers33
01-07-2012, 05:00 PM
U can't teach old dog new tricks

FriedTofuz
01-07-2012, 05:01 PM
elite defender? when was he even an okay defender :facepalm:

smiddy012
01-07-2012, 05:05 PM
Ok, maybe not elite, but i think he is much improved compared to last season, he has a defensive rating for under 100 for the past 2 seasons with the bucks, this season he has a 91 rating so far

http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/b/boozeca01.html

his steals and blocks are up, he contests a bit more, hasnt foulded alot so far this year, he hasnt faced any true competition at the 4 after he injured zach randolph, his only competition this year has been ryan anderson, josh mcroberts, josh smith, and probably jason maxeel, none are extreme offensive threats or anything, but i think he is a much better defnder, probably a top 5 defender on the bulls this season and thats saying something, i wld sure love to have his defense on our roster instead of stoudemires, but thats a different story for a different thread, he obviously isnt a match for stoudemires legendary offense, which is near comega level

anyway, do you guys think boozer is becoming an elite defendeer?

The most ******** thread in the history of PSD, that's what I think.

justinnum1
01-07-2012, 05:07 PM
:laugh2:

No, not at all. He lost some weight and is moving around better and quicker, but overall his defense is below average. And his team D is also pretty bad.

smiddy012
01-07-2012, 05:17 PM
Oh and if Carlos Boozer were an elite defender lol he'd easily be one of the best PFs in the league...

utl768
01-07-2012, 05:19 PM
no

TheRunKiller
01-07-2012, 05:23 PM
:laugh2:

No, not at all. He lost some weight and is moving around better and quicker, but overall his defense is below average. And his team D is also pretty bad.

You know its a joke right?

Iman Shumpert
01-07-2012, 05:26 PM
herro,advanced stasticals!: http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/b/boozeca01.html#advanced::none

Chacarron
01-07-2012, 05:32 PM
Defensive Rating :laugh: when the Bulls are one of the best defensively.

Yup. Maybe OP didn't know about the team's influence on players' DRTG.

Sadds The Gr8
01-07-2012, 05:36 PM
http://www.socialtechpop.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/11/TROLL-BANK-GR1.jpeg

blastmasta26
01-07-2012, 05:36 PM
Yup. Maybe OP didn't know about the team's influence on players' DRTG.
Kind of off topic, but what's the best way to assess a player's defensive skill? I know DRTG and Defensive WS are flawed and/or don't show the whole picture.

chris34
01-07-2012, 05:42 PM
This is the stupidest thread of all time.

LakersKB24
01-07-2012, 05:52 PM
Kind of off topic, but what's the best way to assess a player's defensive skill? I know DRTG and Defensive WS are flawed and/or don't show the whole picture.

The best way is to watch the games, there are things that you can't put on a stat sheet which is why I dpon't like those advanced stats. Many players change the whole dynamic of the opponents offense just by their presence on the floor, especially big men. Lakers for example are a completely different team defensively when Bynum plays.


And this thread has to be a joke. How can a player go from no defense at all to an elite defender within 8 games :confused:

Rosh
01-07-2012, 05:52 PM
All you need to know:

- Carlos Boozer is not an elite defender, far from it.
- Boozer's defensive ratings are up because he plays in a far superior defensive system now than the one he played in Utah.
- Boozer has improved defensively over the last few games, but it is yet to be seen whether he can continue that effort over an entire season. Even if he does, his defense is still adequate relative to what the Bulls need. That does not make him an elite defender in the slightest, and at this age, if he's to ever become an elite defender getting older, I'll eat my shoes.

effen5
01-07-2012, 05:57 PM
Bulls fan here...

hes gotten better but hes far from being elite....hes still terrible and I think he pisses off JoNo on the defensive end because hes so bad.

MJ-BULLS
01-07-2012, 06:00 PM
Carlos Boozer has never been a good defender in his career.

one of the reasons why his defensive rating has been better, is due to the fact that he plays for a great defensive team, defensive rating is also team play. for instance, the other players he's playing with out on the floor.

but I will say this, his defense early on this season has been improved. but just because his defense has been better this season, doesn't mean he's going to be a elite defender. you have to factor in his age.

Swashcuff
01-07-2012, 06:22 PM
Kind of off topic, but what's the best way to assess a player's defensive skill? I know DRTG and Defensive WS are flawed and/or don't show the whole picture.

Synergy #s (which most of us don't have access to) is the best way of evaluating an individuals D from a statistical POV. Other than that there are other stats like DSPM (defensive statistical +/-), 82games.com off court and opponent counter-production stats, DRAPM, PDSS (Project Defensive Score Sheet) which is something I am quite certain Chronz and PSK can explain wayyyyy better than I can, Defensive WARP and Net defensive plus-minus, via BasketballValue.com.

Some are basic (not really all that advanced IMO) while others are a bit more complicated. I tend to stick to synergy's #s which are able to isolate a player from his team D and give you a more accurate indicator of how opponent did against him, the 82games.com #s, DSPM and DPM.

Geargo Wallace
01-07-2012, 06:25 PM
He has too little length and height to be an elite defender at the PF position.

phen0m
01-07-2012, 06:25 PM
As far as FT defense, yes he is obviously elite and always has been.

smiddy012
01-07-2012, 06:35 PM
Carlos Boozer has never been a good defender in his career.

one of the reasons why his defensive rating has been better, is due to the fact that he plays for a great defensive team, defensive rating is also team play. for instance, the other players he's playing with out on the floor.

but I will say this, his defense early on this season has been improved. but just because his defense has been better this season, doesn't mean he's going to be a elite defender. you have to factor in his age.


He still shys away from contact and is easily our least physical player. He has good hands and can rebound well, that's it defensively. The guys scared of getting injured.

Bulls_fan90
01-07-2012, 06:37 PM
Carlos Boozer plays for the Bucks?

Chi StateOfMind
01-07-2012, 06:42 PM
WTF is this ****. Of course he's not an elite defender nor will he ever be. So stop trolling.

-Kobe24-TJ19-
01-07-2012, 06:43 PM
He has too little length and height to be an elite defender at the PF position.

height and length doesnt make u a good defender

Nycbball08
01-07-2012, 06:44 PM
Must be a bulls fan keep making these dumb threads....

Dilbert456
01-07-2012, 06:45 PM
[QUOTE=Iman Shumpert;20436816]Ok, maybe not elite, but i think he is much improved compared to last season, he has a defensive rating for under 100 for the past 2 seasons with the bucks, this season he has a 91 rating so far

Did i miss something?

DLeeicious
01-07-2012, 06:45 PM
I like how everyone just shakes off all of OP's points which are all real good. I'm on OP's side on this one. Good post.

alexander_37
01-07-2012, 06:46 PM
I am still trying to digest the Stoudamire's "legendary" offense statement. Good or even great yes .... but legendary???

imReallyCHI
01-07-2012, 06:47 PM
does it say bucks????????

Dilbert456
01-07-2012, 06:49 PM
does it say bucks????????

yep

Swashcuff
01-07-2012, 06:51 PM
I am still trying to digest the Stoudamire's "legendary" offense statement. Good or even great yes .... but legendary???

Name 5 PFs all time that are better offensively than Amar'e Stoudemire.

Geargo Wallace
01-07-2012, 06:55 PM
height and length doesnt make u a good defender

True, but you'd be kidding yourself if you don't think that it helps. Height and length are essential for big men to be elite defenders. McHale, Hakeem, Russell, Howard, Walton, Mutombo etc. are all great examples. Rodman and Ben Wallace are slight exceptions, but they were freaks.

Geargo Wallace
01-07-2012, 06:56 PM
Name 5 PFs all time that are better offensively than Amar'e Stoudemire.

McHale, Nowitzki, Malone, Duncan, Garnett, Barkley, Gasol... are a few that come to mind.

Chi StateOfMind
01-07-2012, 06:58 PM
does it say bucks????????


Name 5 PFs all time that are better offensively than Amar'e Stoudemire.

I agree with you I believe that Amare is a power house offensively but these are the only guys that I can think of.

Sir Charles Barkley
Patrick Ewing
Kevin Garnett (TWolves days)
Dirk
Karl Malone

Sinestro
01-07-2012, 06:59 PM
I'd say he's a top 5 defender in the Bulls starting lineup. :)

lmao

Chi StateOfMind
01-07-2012, 06:59 PM
Dbl post.

Swashcuff
01-07-2012, 07:01 PM
I agree with you I believe that Amare is a power house offensively but these are the only guys that I can think of.

Sir Charles Barkley
Patrick Ewing
Kevin Garnett (TWolves days)
Dirk
Karl Malone

And Patrick Ewing was a C not a PF. Also if we take it from a purely scoring POV Anar'e has KG beat. If we take into consideration offensive rebounding, setting screens and of course play making (KG being one of the best passing PFs ever) then it's KG. Still very close however.

Swashcuff
01-07-2012, 07:03 PM
McHale, Nowitzki, Malone, Duncan, Garnett, Barkley, Gasol... are a few that come to mind.

Gasol, McHale, TD? Really. When you speak of offense I guess you're talking about skill set and not production right?

-Kobe24-TJ19-
01-07-2012, 07:04 PM
True, but you'd be kidding yourself if you don't think that it helps. Height and length are essential for big men to be elite defenders. McHale, Hakeem, Russell, Howard, Walton, Mutombo etc. are all great examples. Rodman and Ben Wallace are slight exceptions, but they were freaks.

Chuck hayes;)

Rosh
01-07-2012, 07:07 PM
Also if we take it from a purely scoring POV Anar'e has KG beat.

And if we take it from a purely offensive POV, KG did things that Amar'e could only dream of.

Nick O
01-07-2012, 07:07 PM
I like how everyone just shakes off all of OP's points which are all real good. I'm on OP's side on this one. Good post.

but they arnt good points

dwilly4rilly
01-07-2012, 07:07 PM
Boozer is an elite defender of the Matadors crown. A very coveted award given to the best sidestepping, ole'ing, defensive players in the world.

Swashcuff
01-07-2012, 07:09 PM
And if we take it from a purely offensive POV, KG did things that Amar'e could only dream of.

Well I said that in the rest of the post so why did you take that out and only focus on this part? :confused: I said that KG was a superior offensive rebounding, better at doing the small things on offense like setting screens and of course a worlds better play maker.

Rosh
01-07-2012, 07:10 PM
Must be a bulls fan keep making these dumb threads....


Yes, I'm sure it's a Bulls fan posting threads to make Bulls fans look bad. Good Lord.

Rosh
01-07-2012, 07:11 PM
Well I said that in the rest of the post so why did you take that out and only focus on this part? :confused: I said that KG was a superior offensive rebounding, better at doing the small things on offense like setting screens and of course a worlds better play maker.


I'm not talking offensive rebounding or setting screens. I'm talking offensive and scoring as a whole. KG has offensive tools other than rolling to the basket or taking 18 foot jumpers. Prime KG would own Amar'e so bad in that aspect.

Swashcuff
01-07-2012, 07:15 PM
I'm not talking offensive rebounding or setting screens. I'm talking offensive and scoring as a whole. KG has offensive tools other than rolling to the basket or taking 18 foot jumpers. Prime KG would own Amar'e so bad in that aspect.

So you think as a scorer KG was better than Amar'e? Or do you mean had a more unique/complete offensive arsenal?

BULLSFAN0810
01-07-2012, 07:15 PM
His effort is better.his hands are certainly one of the best as far as biggs.but his feet are slow as hell.

xxcubs22xx
01-07-2012, 07:15 PM
:laugh2:

No, not at all. He lost some weight and is moving around better and quicker, but overall his defense is below average. And his team D is also pretty bad.

This.

I wouldn't even consider Boozer an average defender :facepalm:

Geargo Wallace
01-07-2012, 07:17 PM
Gasol, McHale, TD? Really. When you speak of offense I guess you're talking about skill set and not production right?

McHale had an extremely efficient post game, and probably the best set of post most in NBA history. He may not have had the same production as Amare, but they had completely different circumstances in their careers.

I think Gasol has a better offensive game overall, but this could still be a wash.

No doubt TD is better on O. I think people forget how athletic he was in the first half of the career.

alexander_37
01-07-2012, 07:18 PM
Name 5 PFs all time that are better offensively than Amar'e Stoudemire.

KG, Duncan, Dirk, Karl Malone, Larry ****ing Bird, Bob Pettit, Charles Barkley, Bob Macadoo, and possibly Pau Gasol off the top of my head.

alexander_37
01-07-2012, 07:19 PM
I'm not talking offensive rebounding or setting screens. I'm talking offensive and scoring as a whole. KG has offensive tools other than rolling to the basket or taking 18 foot jumpers. Prime KG would own Amar'e so bad in that aspect.

Truth KG was a badass. Too bad he didn't get a good team much earlier in his career. By the time he got to Boston his true prime was coming to an end sadly.

rds1488
01-07-2012, 07:23 PM
add james worthy to that list(his ppg were low because he had a stacked lakers team)

Geargo Wallace
01-07-2012, 07:27 PM
Somebody should make a "Top 10 Defensive Players of All-Time" thread, with poll. I would enjoy that.

rds1488
01-07-2012, 07:32 PM
Kevin Garnett, Malone, Dirk, charles Barkley, Tim Duncan all have better offensive skillsets and were better offensive players than Amare.. be real amare probably won't be a hall of famer unless he does something bigggggggggggggggggggggg

rds1488
01-07-2012, 07:34 PM
i forgot kevin mchale also in the list of definite's and you could prob add Shawn Kemp and Chris Webber as better offensive players than Amare

Geargo Wallace
01-07-2012, 07:39 PM
i forgot kevin mchale also in the list of definite's and you could prob add Shawn Kemp and Chris Webber as better offensive players than Amare

CWebb is a great choice. It's amazing how forgotten he is to many ppl. He was a damn good player.

alexander_37
01-07-2012, 07:41 PM
i forgot kevin mchale also in the list of definite's and you could prob add Shawn Kemp and Chris Webber as better offensive players than Amare

They completely slipped my mind sadly, not Kemp but Webber very possibly.

Cal827
01-07-2012, 07:58 PM
Yup, and Derrick Rose is becoming the best Center in the League.

SchyGuy11
01-07-2012, 08:09 PM
I didn't know it was April 1st already

Moe Bigsley
01-07-2012, 08:11 PM
I don't know what to say.....maybe this kind of no would do it. (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=umDr0mPuyQc)

KnicksR4Real
01-07-2012, 08:15 PM
bahaha. don't take my trademark, u can go to jail

gaughan333
01-07-2012, 08:36 PM
Oh dear god no. I watch every bulls game, he is awful. He constantly gets beat and fails to play help defense.

blastmasta26
01-07-2012, 09:01 PM
I'm shocked that even 5 people voted yes.

Iman Shumpert
01-07-2012, 10:14 PM
Yup, and Derrick Rose is becoming the best Center in the League.

he already has better post moves than dwight howard,but then again, so does rony turiaf

Swashcuff
01-08-2012, 02:00 AM
KG, Duncan, Dirk, Karl Malone, Larry ****ing Bird, Bob Pettit, Charles Barkley, Bob Macadoo, and possibly Pau Gasol off the top of my head.

McAdoo played the C and Larry Bird played the SF.

Swashcuff
01-08-2012, 02:34 AM
Since I sparked a debate I'll bring forth my argument now.

Career scoring #s of the PFs being discussed


Player TS% eFG% USG% ORtg PTS
Charles Barkley 0.612 0.558 24.8 119 22.1
Kevin McHale 0.605 0.555 22.4 118 17.9
A Stoudemire 0.599 0.537 26.9 114 21.9
Dirk Nowitzki 0.582 0.512 27.1 117 22.9
Pau Gasol 0.579 0.524 23.5 115 18.8
Karl Malone 0.577 0.518 29.4 113 25
Shawn Kemp 0.555 0.49 25 106 14.6
Tim Duncan 0.552 0.508 27.7 110 20.5
Kevin Garnett 0.549 0.503 25.1 111 19.5
Chris Webber 0.513 0.487 27.1 104 20.1
Bob Pettit 0.511 0.436 N/A N/A 26.4

Career #s aren't exactly fair in this scenario since all these guys are either retired or past their prime while Amar'e is still in the prime of his career. However at the very moment it gives you a great indicator or where Amar'e stands.

Peak scoring #s of the PFs being discussed


Player TS% eFG% USG% ORtg PTS
Charles Barkley 0.665 0.604 26.7 126 28.3
Kevin McHale 0.655 0.604 24.1 125 26.1
A Stoudemire 0.656 0.592 28.2 124 25.2
Dirk Nowitzki 0.589 0.515 30 123 26.6
Pau Gasol 0.593 0.54 25.3 115 20.8
Karl Malone 0.626 0.567 32.6 118 31
Shawn Kemp 0.61 0.548 24.4 115 19.6
Tim Duncan 0.576 0.508 29 114 25.5
Kevin Garnett 0.547 0.502 29.6 112 24.2
Chris Webber 0.516 0.481 31.6 105 27.1
Bob Pettit 0.522 0.45 N/A N/A 31.1

In Pettit's defense though he had such an awful TS% relative to his era he was quite efficient (not as efficient as Amar'e but still). To his benefit however he played in a fast paced era which would have helped his PPG.

The only persons with a better peak ORtg than Amar'e are Charles Barkley (who IMO is the best offensive PF to ever play the game) and Kevin McHale. They are also the only ones with a better peak eFG% while Chuck is the only PF in the history of the game not named Cedric Maxwell who has a better peak TS% than Amar'e Stoudemire.

If we want to talk skill the discussion is going to be never ending because we can speak of each player's strengths and weaknesses in that department for hours. Skill however does not guarantee a high level of production (as is evident by Chris Webber's play).

All and all based on overall offensive output and production I got Kevin McHale, Dirk Nowitzki, Charles Barkley and Karl Malone ahead of Amar'e, everyone else is still up for debate if you ask me.

Sure TD has a wider array of offensive moves than Amar'e but that in itself doesn't make him better offensively than Amar'e. Same with Shaq and Hakeem. While Hakeem was undoubtedly a more gifted scorer that didn't make him more effective or efficient even.

Fnom11
01-08-2012, 02:35 AM
Obvious Chi fan posing as a NY fan.

Kyben36
01-08-2012, 02:49 AM
He seems to be trying harder, he came into the year in shape, but he is still a poor/average defender at best.

slynxpac
01-08-2012, 03:31 AM
Definitely Not..

Jewelz0376
01-08-2012, 03:39 AM
Is this thread a joke??