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ChiSox219
01-07-2012, 09:33 AM
Topic

abe_froman
01-07-2012, 09:41 AM
for the past few years? russ
this year? its clearly harden

the question is ,is this a temporary thing or will this be a lasting shift... which is a question that i cant answer

ChitownSports16
01-07-2012, 09:45 AM
Harden

justinnum1
01-07-2012, 09:48 AM
harden

mdm692
01-07-2012, 10:04 AM
If i were thunder i would let westbrook sign somewhere else this offseason(phoenix :P). Then extend harden and sign either oj mayo or nick young and let harden be pg. Before anybody says harden cant play point analyze his game. He has better handles, superior vision and passing ability, better at setting the tempo of the game and is a far better shooter.

Evolution23
01-07-2012, 10:36 AM
Overall talent= Westbrook
Best fit= Harden

Fnom11
01-07-2012, 10:43 AM
Westbrooke has the Talent/Athleticism to be but he's playing with the IQ of a snail.
Harden has the skill set and the BBIQ of the gods at the moment

Swashcuff
01-07-2012, 11:34 AM
When Russell Westbrook puts it together and goes off averaging 24, 6 and 9 over say a 12 game span, while making clutch bucket after clutch bucket we'd revisit this topic and wonder why Harden had so many votes. Harden has had a great start to the season and Westbrook has had a horrible one, everyone is sadly just living in the moment.

Last season Russell Westbrook was a top 20 player in the league while Harden wasn't top 40 now while Harden made some considerable strides this season and Westbrook has regressed a bit it's still very early and you don't make such a catastrophic leap in just 8 games.

You guys need to stop living in the moment. It's not even 10 games into the season its by no means an accurate indicator as to who is better than whom.

I do however agree with the poster who said Harden should play PG. IMO he should have more of the ball handling duties when he's on the court with Westbrook. However I disagree with trading him.

You don't however let him sign elsewhere in the off season. The man is a top 20 player in the league you can't replace him with even worst chuckers in OJ Mayo or Nick Young. At least Westbrook can guard PGs (much better than Harden has). Who's going to guard the opposing PGs with Harden starting at the 1 and Mayo/Young at the 2?

heyman321
01-07-2012, 12:13 PM
Durant. Hehehhehe. (Well actually true if it was last season).

But it's Harden if he gets more playing time. Westbrook seems to just chuck.

bovice163
01-07-2012, 12:15 PM
It's obviously Westbrook, but he seems to enjoy his role of chucking alongside Durant. Harden is the one who fits perfectly with the Thunder right now, but Westy is still a better player.

LJEATON26
01-07-2012, 12:20 PM
If i were thunder i would let westbrook sign somewhere else this offseason(phoenix :P). Then extend harden and sign either oj mayo or nick young and let harden be pg. Before anybody says harden cant play point analyze his game. He has better handles, superior vision and passing ability, better at setting the tempo of the game and is a far better shooter.

If you were in the Thunder front office you would be ran out of Oklahoma! Thats just bad!!!

Sportfan
01-07-2012, 12:31 PM
I've been saying it's Harden since last year's playoff, he's without a doubt a top 5 SG (rip me all you want, it's my opinion) and extremely efficient doing so. I'm hoping Westbrook succeeds in OKC so they foolishly pay him top dollar and Harden might end up being the odd man out, but knowing Presti they'll make the right move and extend Harden before his value skyrockets

Raps18-19 Champ
01-07-2012, 12:34 PM
Westbrook.

Westbrook is more talented than Harden. Westbrook hasn't been great like last season but let's not act like he's not the guy he's capable of. 8 games into the year.

People who think Harden is better need to stop thinking like the present is always true. Actually consider other variables. It's like idiots crowning Lowry a top 10 PG because he's had 8 great games.

Sportfan
01-07-2012, 12:39 PM
Westbrook.

Westbrook is more talented than Harden. Westbrook hasn't been great like last season but let's not act like he's not the guy he's capable of. 8 games into the year.

People who think Harden is better need to stop thinking like the present is always true. Actually consider other variables. It's like idiots crowning Lowry a top 10 PG because he's had 8 great games.
Harden hasn't come out of no where like Lowry, there's a reason he was a top 3 pick ranked ahead of Curry, Tyreke, Jennings. He was always good but OKC let him sit and develop off the bench, he's been ready for some time now to step up and be their 2nd go to guy.

ellisgw
01-07-2012, 12:40 PM
if you think harden is better than westbrook should find another sport to watch because you obviously dont understand basketball.

Raps18-19 Champ
01-07-2012, 12:46 PM
Harden hasn't come out of no where like Lowry, there's a reason he was a top 3 pick ranked ahead of Curry, Tyreke, Jennings. He was always good but OKC let him sit and develop off the bench, he's been ready for some time now to step up and be their 2nd go to guy.

There's a reason why there was actually some talk last year if Westbrook was the MVP of the Thunder or not.

A lot of people only criticized ever since the playoffs.

But let's not forget what he's capable of. He's a top 20 talent in the league. A couple arguments with NBA poster child Durant and sub par 8 games into this season and he's public enemy #1.

PrettyBoyJ
01-07-2012, 12:48 PM
Westbrook is very overrated.. People keep comparing him to Rose but he's far from that level.. His shot selection is bad, his decision making is bad, and he's not a play maker, and is very inefficient. Harden with the same amount of playing time as Westbrook has proven to be more productive then Westbrook imo.. And Harden is athletic on the low he jus has a lot of skill to his game which westbrook does not. I'll pick Harden any day of the week over Westbrook

Swashcuff
01-07-2012, 01:01 PM
There's a reason why there was actually some talk last year if Westbrook was the MVP of the Thunder or not.

A lot of people only criticized ever since the playoffs.

But let's not forget what he's capable of. He's a top 20 talent in the league. A couple arguments with NBA poster child Durant and sub par 8 games into this season and he's public enemy #1.

Short term memory brother coupled with living in the moment. Its only a matter of time before Westbrook rights this ship and people go back to saying that he's their 2nd best player (and at time even playing like their best).

It was exactly a year ago that many were asking who was the Thunder's best player at the time because Westbrook was playing on such a high level and HE was the one who was leading them to victory. Just like other players however apparently one series defines a player's career.

Swashcuff
01-07-2012, 01:15 PM
Westbrook is very overrated.. People keep comparing him to Rose but he's far from that level..

People compare him to Rose because of his style of play not because he's on Rose's level. He isn't far from Rose however he's just a tier below.


His shot selection is bad, his decision making is bad,

Both are correct for this season thus far.


and he's not a play maker,

The guy averages 7.1 apg for his career and he isn't a play maker? Interesting.


and is very inefficient.

Last season Westbrook had a TS% of 53.8% the league average for PGs was 53.3% if its very inefficient to be average then that's a hell of a thing.


Harden with the same amount of playing time as Westbrook has proven to be more productive then Westbrook imo.. And Harden is athletic on the low he jus has a lot of skill to his game which westbrook does not. I'll pick Harden any day of the week over Westbrook

Really lets compare Harden's per 36 of this season (just 8 games) to Westbrook's of last.


Player FG FGA FG% 3P 3PA 3P% FT FTA FT% ORB DRB TRB AST STL BLK TOV PF PTS
James Harden 5.6 11.5 .488 1.7 5.2 .333 7.5 8.2 .912 0.7 5.3 6.0 4.6 1.2 0.1 1.7 3.0 20.4
Russell Westbrook 7.8 17.6 .442 0.4 1.3 .330 6.7 8.0 .842 1.5 3.3 4.8 8.5 2.0 0.4 4.0 2.6 22.7

So while Harden has had a great 8 games there is no way he's going to be able to keep up this level of production. When he falls back down to earth do you really think he's going to be better than. 22.7, 4.8 and 8.5? Not to mention the fact that Westbrook is better a defensive player than Harden and has a proven track record of clutch play (excluding last post season against the Mavs where he took a royal dump in that regard).

Harden will always be the far more efficient scorer but that's about it.

Fnom11
01-07-2012, 01:20 PM
People compare him to Rose because of his style of play not because he's on Rose's level. He isn't far from Rose however he's just a tier below.



Both are correct for this season thus far.



The guy averages 7.1 apg for his career and he isn't a play maker? Interesting.



Last season Westbrook had a TS% of 53.8% the league average for PGs was 53.3% if its very inefficient to be average then that's a hell of a thing.



Really lets compare Harden's per 36 of this season (just 8 games) to Westbrook's of last.


Player FG FGA FG% 3P 3PA 3P% FT FTA FT% ORB DRB TRB AST STL BLK TOV PF PTS
James Harden 5.6 11.5 .488 1.7 5.2 .333 7.5 8.2 .912 0.7 5.3 6.0 4.6 1.2 0.1 1.7 3.0 20.4
Russell Westbrook 7.8 17.6 .442 0.4 1.3 .330 6.7 8.0 .842 1.5 3.3 4.8 8.5 2.0 0.4 4.0 2.6 22.7

So while Harden has had a great 8 games there is no way he's going to be able to keep up this level of production. When he falls back down to earth do you really think he's going to be better than. 22.7, 4.8 and 8.5? Not to mention the fact that Westbrook is better a defensive player than Harden and has a proven track record of clutch play (excluding last post season against the Mavs where he took a royal dump in that regard).

Harden will always be the far more efficient scorer but that's about it.

Once Westbrooke recovers his IQ he'll be back to normal status. He's just been playing like a moron out there. However for Harden it's like the complete opposite.

Swashcuff
01-07-2012, 01:25 PM
Once Westbrooke recovers his IQ he'll be back to normal status. He's just been playing like a moron out there. However for Harden it's like the complete opposite.

So wait what is the topic then because the OP was quite vague. Is it who is playing better ball right now (because that's clearly Harden) or who is the better player?

wjmoffatt
01-07-2012, 01:27 PM
Westbrook, Harden's D is no where near his.

Carey
01-07-2012, 01:29 PM
Harden without question...and those in the Thunder forum know ive said the last 2 years that Harden is the best "basketball player" on this team.

Jint.
01-07-2012, 01:37 PM
playing along side Durant, I like Harden more.

blastmasta26
01-07-2012, 01:40 PM
It's only been what? 8 games? Too many knee-jerk threads in the NBA forums nowadays. Harden's a more efficient shooter and is perhaps a better complementary piece to Durant with his passing, but he hasn't proven that he's better than Westbrook. Westbrook's having a terrible season so far, but it's an aberration because of how uncharacteristically bad he is performing right now. Later in the season, when both players show their consistent level of play can we have an accurate answer to the OP's question.

smith&wesson
01-07-2012, 01:42 PM
westbrook

Wade>You
01-07-2012, 01:53 PM
17ppl overrate Harden

Raps18-19 Champ
01-07-2012, 01:54 PM
Short term memory brother coupled with living in the moment. Its only a matter of time before Westbrook rights this ship and people go back to saying that he's their 2nd best player (and at time even playing like their best).

It was exactly a year ago that many were asking who was the Thunder's best player at the time because Westbrook was playing on such a high level and HE was the one who was leading them to victory. Just like other players however apparently one series defines a player's career.

I was just about to bring up the fact that people live too much into the moment. You brought up a great example with Westbrook being argued as the best Thunder player.

It annoys me how we see it every season too that people live in the moment. Even with guys that come out of nowhere being considered top 10 players. This year we see guys like Spencer Hawes, Kyle Lowry and Ryan Anderson being considered like they'll keep up their great start past this season at a high level. Last year we saw threads about Arron Afflalo, Dorrell Wright, and Raymond Felton. The year before, Aaron Brooks, Carl Landry, and Robin Lopez. We see it all the time. Harden isn't the same case but it's the point that people live way too much in the moment.

thekmp211
01-07-2012, 01:58 PM
the westbrook to marbury comparisons are downright eerie. he is the second most talented player on the thunder. harden has honestly improved so much though, he now looks like the guy who dominated at arizona. he has a high ceiling.

Sportfan
01-07-2012, 02:22 PM
There's a reason why there was actually some talk last year if Westbrook was the MVP of the Thunder or not.

A lot of people only criticized ever since the playoffs.

But let's not forget what he's capable of. He's a top 20 talent in the league. A couple arguments with NBA poster child Durant and sub par 8 games into this season and he's public enemy #1.
I don't see any reason? Durant is far and far away the leader of that team.

He's been a turnover machine before that, his pg play can get sloppy at time, he just isn't a good floor general regardless of the assist numbers.

I never called him a top 20 player and Lol'd pretty hard that PSD ranked him 4th best PG. He's 6th at best,(although Nash is slipping, so maybe top 5) he's a great scorer but he's not even at Derrick Rose or Monta Ellis level at that yet, and he certainly isn't a reliable PG yet.

effen5
01-07-2012, 02:35 PM
Westy plays way out of control....Westbrook might be the better player but I love Harden more....

Hustlenomics
01-07-2012, 02:43 PM
Harden Easily

KnickaBocka.44
01-07-2012, 02:55 PM
Okay, I know Westbrook came into the league first and everyone has been wowed by his athleticism but the fact is: WESTBROOK WAS A WALK ON AT UCLA WHEN THEY WERE BAD. He was never highly recruited and he even REDSHIRTED when he got there. The fact that Westbrook even made it to the league was a surprise.

Harden on the other hand was a Top 20 recruit coming out of high school and single handedly led ASU to their first 2 NCAA tournament appearances in a decade.

My point:This isn't anything new. Harden always has been the better player.

RaiderKid318
01-07-2012, 03:03 PM
Durante deserves 1st and 2nd for being such a stud.

Wade>You
01-07-2012, 03:04 PM
Harden is severely overrated on PSD (still a good player); Westbrook just so happened to have a slow start to the season while Harden had a fast start.

/thread

Swashcuff
01-07-2012, 03:05 PM
Harden Easily

Facepalm worthy.

KnickaBocka.44
01-07-2012, 03:10 PM
The Westbrook supporters are simply just blind to his weaknesses because they are consumed with his athletic ability. Yes, he is an outstanding athlete, but in terms of Basketball IQ and just making good decisions on the court, he isn't that good a player.

DR_1
01-07-2012, 03:11 PM
Westy, for now.

mdm692
01-07-2012, 03:19 PM
If you were in the Thunder front office you would be ran out of Oklahoma! Thats just bad!!!

it really cant be worst than dan gilbert but to each its own

mdm692
01-07-2012, 03:25 PM
Okay, I know Westbrook came into the league first and everyone has been wowed by his athleticism but the fact is: WESTBROOK WAS A WALK ON AT UCLA WHEN THEY WERE BAD. He was never highly recruited and he even REDSHIRTED when he got there. The fact that Westbrook even made it to the league was a surprise.

Harden on the other hand was a Top 20 recruit coming out of high school and single handedly led ASU to their first 2 NCAA tournament appearances in a decade.

My point:This isn't anything new. Harden always has been the better player.

yeah people seem to forget hardens short college career. He doesnt impress you with high flying dunks or flashy plays but has a high iq as(dare i say nash) he plays old school basketball and imo harden>westbrook

Hustlenomics
01-07-2012, 03:27 PM
Facepalm worthy.

i dont care what peoples obsession with Westbrook is but Harden is going to continue to be better than him this year

Swashcuff
01-07-2012, 03:30 PM
The Westbrook supporters are simply just blind to his weaknesses because they are consumed with his athletic ability. Yes, he is an outstanding athlete, but in terms of Basketball IQ and just making good decisions on the court, he isn't that good a player.

So by this notion a prime Shane Battier is a better than Westbrook as well right?

When evaluating a player I look at the entire body of work, from statistical production, to intangible worth to athleticism, to ability to raise their level of play when it counts most etc. Looking at players' weaknesses and strengths. Westbrook has a tonne of weaknesses however those don't outweigh his strengths. Harden has less weaknesses than Westbrook does but that doesn't make him a better player than Westbrook is.

You guys act as if this is Westbrook's first season and he is not capable of playing better than this. Right now he's playing arguably the worst ball of his NBA career while Harden is playing his best. So tell me how can we derive at an accurate indication of who is better than whom from just that?

When the Thunder lost to the Mavs last post season I was Westbrook's biggest critic but I did not forget what he was able to do when he actually played the game at the level that he's capable of. Apparently everyone else is forgetting that and living in the moment.

Swashcuff
01-07-2012, 03:32 PM
i dont care what peoples obsession with Westbrook is but Harden is going to continue to be better than him this year

Do you have a crystal ball? How can you tell us this? It took Westbrook playing at his absolute worst and Harden playing at his absolute best for this to even become discussion worthy. What happens when the tables are turned? What happens when they are both on track? Saying Harden is easily the Thunder 2nd showing a lack of understanding that its 8 games into the season and we can NEVER get an accurate indicator of who is better than whom based on 8 games.

Hustlenomics
01-07-2012, 03:38 PM
Do you have a crystal ball? How can you tell us this? It took Westbrook playing at his absolute worst and Harden playing at his absolute best for this to even become discussion worthy. What happens when the tables are turned? What happens when they are both on track? Saying Harden is easily the Thunder 2nd showing a lack of understanding that its 8 games into the season and we can NEVER get an accurate indicator of who is better than whom based on 8 games.

he was outplaying him in the playoffs too way more efficient and took care of the ball better, if by the end of the year and playoffs Westbrook clearly outplays Harden i'll admit it

Swashcuff
01-07-2012, 03:44 PM
he was outplaying him in the playoffs too way more efficient and took care of the ball better, if by the end of the year and playoffs Westbrook clearly outplays Harden i'll admit it

So wait basically what you're saying is that 25 games is > 164? That's what you're saying?

Efficiency and ball handling are two important parts of the game I'd never disagree with that but being an Allen Iverson fan how much do you value effectiveness? Because A.I. was erratic and never very efficient but more times than not he was able to get the job done.

As poor as Westbrook played in those regards this (http://www.82games.com/1011/CSORT11.HTM) led me to the understanding that he was quite effective regardless.

Sadds The Gr8
01-07-2012, 03:50 PM
Overall talent= Westbrook
Best fit= Harden


Westbrook.

Westbrook is more talented than Harden. Westbrook hasn't been great like last season but let's not act like he's not the guy he's capable of. 8 games into the year.

People who think Harden is better need to stop thinking like the present is always true. Actually consider other variables. It's like idiots crowning Lowry a top 10 PG because he's had 8 great games.

how is Westbrook more talented than Harden? He's more athletic yes, but when it comes to basketball talent, I'd think Harden has more. Better shooter, plays with more control, better basketball IQ, better decision maker, more efficient scorer, etc...

KnickaBocka.44
01-07-2012, 04:42 PM
So by this notion a prime Shane Battier is a better than Westbrook as well right?

When evaluating a player I look at the entire body of work, from statistical production, to intangible worth to athleticism, to ability to raise their level of play when it counts most etc. Looking at players' weaknesses and strengths. Westbrook has a tonne of weaknesses however those don't outweigh his strengths. Harden has less weaknesses than Westbrook does but that doesn't make him a better player than Westbrook is.

You guys act as if this is Westbrook's first season and he is not capable of playing better than this. Right now he's playing arguably the worst ball of his NBA career while Harden is playing his best. So tell me how can we derive at an accurate indication of who is better than whom from just that?

When the Thunder lost to the Mavs last post season I was Westbrook's biggest critic but I did not forget what he was able to do when he actually played the game at the level that he's capable of. Apparently everyone else is forgetting that and living in the moment.


No, you're confused. I said "in terms of his basketball IQ and decision making he's not that good a player". That is not to say he isn't talented in other areas. But given the fact that he is a point guard, those two qualities are of more importance at PG than the other positions on the court.

KnickaBocka.44
01-07-2012, 04:50 PM
Plus, you clearly didn't read my earlier post that illustrates how you are being the short-sighted one only looking at Westbrook's NBA career. As I mentioned, he didn't even have a D-1 offer until he redshirted and walked on in college and even then, the only reason he was a first round pick was because of his elite athleticism. The fact that Westbrook is playing the worst ball of his career may not be as much a fluke as a return back to his norm. He is not a good outside shooter and defenses have learned how to play him, he has to keep progressing in order to remain that dynamic talent because he will not always have that athleticism.

Harden on the other hand, plays a complete game and is still a year younger than Westbrook and has more control. He was also more highly sought after by colleges, a higher draft pick, and thus far in his third season has been better than Westbrook.

ChiSox219
01-07-2012, 05:10 PM
When Russell Westbrook puts it together and goes off averaging 24, 6 and 9 over say a 12 game span, while making clutch bucket after clutch bucket we'd revisit this topic and wonder why Harden had so many votes. Harden has had a great start to the season and Westbrook has had a horrible one, everyone is sadly just living in the moment.

Last season Russell Westbrook was a top 20 player in the league while Harden wasn't top 40 now while Harden made some considerable strides this season and Westbrook has regressed a bit it's still very early and you don't make such a catastrophic leap in just 8 games.

You guys need to stop living in the moment. It's not even 10 games into the season its by no means an accurate indicator as to who is better than whom.

I do however agree with the poster who said Harden should play PG. IMO he should have more of the ball handling duties when he's on the court with Westbrook. However I disagree with trading him.

You don't however let him sign elsewhere in the off season. The man is a top 20 player in the league you can't replace him with even worst chuckers in OJ Mayo or Nick Young. At least Westbrook can guard PGs (much better than Harden has). Who's going to guard the opposing PGs with Harden starting at the 1 and Mayo/Young at the 2?

This has nothing to do with living in the moment

I disagree Harden should play PG, Maynor can handle that position and Harden should play 2 with Thabo coming in to play 2 and 3 off the bench.

I do agree that the Thunder shouldn't let Westbrook sign elsewhere, trade or re-sign him.


I've been saying it's Harden since last year's playoff, he's without a doubt a top 5 SG (rip me all you want, it's my opinion) and extremely efficient doing so. I'm hoping Westbrook succeeds in OKC so they foolishly pay him top dollar and Harden might end up being the odd man out, but knowing Presti they'll make the right move and extend Harden before his value skyrockets

It goes back even before last year's playoffs which is why I find it ridiculous people call Harden supporters living in the moment.


Westbrook.

Westbrook is more talented than Harden. Westbrook hasn't been great like last season but let's not act like he's not the guy he's capable of. 8 games into the year.

People who think Harden is better need to stop thinking like the present is always true. Actually consider other variables. It's like idiots crowning Lowry a top 10 PG because he's had 8 great games.

It's not a matter of this year, it's likely Westbrook bounces back to his form last season but he's still not better than Harden.

It's hilarious that you label Lowry-supporters idiots because of 8 great games, even though Lowry has been playing great for over a year and is as well-rounded as any PG in the league. He's not Rose or CP3 but he's a great PG with a body of work that exceeds just this season.


Harden hasn't come out of no where like Lowry, there's a reason he was a top 3 pick ranked ahead of Curry, Tyreke, Jennings. He was always good but OKC let him sit and develop off the bench, he's been ready for some time now to step up and be their 2nd go to guy.

Yessir


if you think harden is better than westbrook should find another sport to watch because you obviously dont understand basketball.

even if Westbrook is better, it's not like we are talking about Eddy Curry vs Dwight Howard.


There's a reason why there was actually some talk last year if Westbrook was the MVP of the Thunder or not.

A lot of people only criticized ever since the playoffs.

But let's not forget what he's capable of. He's a top 20 talent in the league. A couple arguments with NBA poster child Durant and sub par 8 games into this season and he's public enemy #1.

Westbrook was never more valuable, that was noise. He played poorly in the playoffs and was making a lot of mistakes during the regular season. This goes back further than 8 games.



My point:This isn't anything new. Harden always has been the better player.

+1


The Westbrook supporters are simply just blind to his weaknesses because they are consumed with his athletic ability. Yes, he is an outstanding athlete, but in terms of Basketball IQ and just making good decisions on the court, he isn't that good a player.

I think Westbrook is more than just a great athlete, he's a great ball player but he's not better than Harden who's an underrated athlete that also has an amazing grasp of the game.



When evaluating a player I look at the entire body of work, from statistical production, to intangible worth to athleticism, to ability to raise their level of play when it counts most etc.

Stats: Harden
Intangible worth: Harden
Athleticism: Westbrook
Raise Level of Play When it Counts: Harden

Swashcuff
01-07-2012, 05:46 PM
This has nothing to do with living in the moment

I disagree Harden should play PG, Maynor can handle that position and Harden should play 2 with Thabo coming in to play 2 and 3 off the bench.

I do agree that the Thunder shouldn't let Westbrook sign elsewhere, trade or re-sign him.

Funny because I actually read that you yourself have said before that you think Harden should play the PG.


Stats: Harden
Intangible worth: Harden
Athleticism: Westbrook
Raise Level of Play When it Counts: Harden

Really? What makes Harden better statistically? His first 8 games of this season and the 17 in last year's playoffs?

I'd REALLY love to see your comprehensive case for Harden being better than Westbrook statistically, especially when we take into consideration both ends of the floor.

As far as raising level of play again what are we talking about last post season? Because that must be the only instance since during the vast majority of the last regular season Westbrook was the far better player in the clutch for the Thunder and the main reason they won their fair share of games.

Tell me something who was more valuable to the Thunder success last season? Russell Westbrook or James Harden?

topdog
01-07-2012, 05:59 PM
Get your Hard On for Harden! Westbrook is athletic as can be and can hit some timely jumpers but he doesn't realize he plays with one of the best players in the game and can be game-planned out by a conscious effort to draw charges against him.

I think Westbrook is better suited for another team where he can be the lead dog.

Swashcuff
01-07-2012, 06:02 PM
No, you're confused. I said "in terms of his basketball IQ and decision making he's not that good a player". That is not to say he isn't talented in other areas. But given the fact that he is a point guard, those two qualities are of more importance at PG than the other positions on the court.

Firstly you used that as the reason as to why Harden is better. The only who is confused is you.


Plus, you clearly didn't read my earlier post that illustrates how you are being the short-sighted one only looking at Westbrook's NBA career.

Wait wait wait aren't we talking about the NBA here? How is it short sighted to look at his NBA career? Coming into the NBA they weren't even sure what position Russell Westbrook would be playing or much less that he'd be an all star by his 3rd season. He exceeded all his college expectations and became a top 20 player in the NBA. Something no one expected of him. So why use what we hold what we saw in college as a major decision maker in this discussion?


As I mentioned, he didn't even have a D-1 offer until he redshirted and walked on in college and even then, the only reason he was a first round pick was because of his elite athleticism. The fact that Westbrook is playing the worst ball of his career may not be as much a fluke as a return back to his norm. He is not a good outside shooter and defenses have learned how to play him, he has to keep progressing in order to remain that dynamic talent because he will not always have that athleticism.

Going back to his norm right? So tell me exactly which Norm is this. I mean we haven't seen this norm in 3 years I guess he has just learned recently what his norm is right?

Westbrook's issue has nothing to do with defenses learning to how play him. He has done all this to himself by his erratic play and poor decision making.


Harden on the other hand, plays a complete game and is still a year younger than Westbrook and has more control. He was also more highly sought after by colleges, a higher draft pick, and thus far in his third season has been better than Westbrook.

This makes no sense. Because Harden was a higher pick in a completely different draft that makes him a better player? He was more sought after because he wasn't as raw as Westbrook and didn't rely as much on athletic ability so he was seen as more of a sure thing. It was also clear what he'd be in the NBA which is a 2 guard.

Harden plays a more complete game? Interesting because last I checked Westbrook does everything Harden does outside of scoring efficiently but its not like Harden's a great shooter. He's okay but by no means is he among the best in the league. He scores efficiently however so that is forgiven.

Last season Harden shot just 27% from 16-23 and 34.9% from the 3. Westbrook however shot 36% from 16-23 and 33.0% from the 3. What exactly makes Harden a better shooter?

Why aren't we talking defense either? How about rebounding ability? How about clutch play?

Harden has closed the gap considerably with Westbrook and Westbrook play this season surely hasn't helped his cause but calling him easily better than Westbrook because he was a higher pick, and has a better IQ ignoring other critical aspects of the game just shows favoritism.

Swashcuff
01-07-2012, 06:05 PM
Oh and Chisox we all know how you feel about Harden which is why you started this thread in the first place. You think he's a top 5 player under 25 in the league and a top 5 SG (and all this was before this season started just based on last season). That by itself shows that you're not going to be logical on anything related to the player like saying he's better statistically based on 8 games this season and 17 games last post season.

flea
01-07-2012, 06:09 PM
Westbrook is basically the same player as Derrick Rose, so obviously he's the 2nd best on the Thunder. However, Harden is quite promising as a scorer.

Avenged
01-07-2012, 06:14 PM
Westbrook was better last season.. But Harden is better this season thus far and I believe he will continue to play the way he currently is. Westbrook had a slow start to the season and will eventually start to pick it up but I still feel Harden will be right on par if not better than Westbrook.

I have both in my fantasy anyways ;)

topdog
01-07-2012, 06:14 PM
Westbrook is basically the same player as Derrick Rose, so obviously he's the 2nd best on the Thunder. However, Harden is quite promising as a scorer.

I don't think there is any question that Westbrook is the better player in the league, BUT I feel like Harden is the 2nd best player for the Thunder and that the team would be better served with more of a passing PG.

flea
01-07-2012, 06:16 PM
I don't. Westbrook is an elite PG, personally I think he's better than Rose, and if he can learn to stop shooting quite so much except when he's actually hot he's a huge asset. He's probably the best defender at the PG position in the NBA and that fits in perfectly with the team's main identity (defense first).

Swashcuff
01-07-2012, 06:32 PM
I don't think there is any question that Westbrook is the better player in the league, BUT I feel like Harden is the 2nd best player for the Thunder and that the team would be better served with more of a passing PG.

Do you remember last season when they traded Jeff Green for Kendrick Perkins? If you can do you remember what was the #1 concern for the team then? Now tell me does a passing PG help that?

KnickaBocka.44
01-07-2012, 06:46 PM
Firstly you used that as the reason as to why Harden is better. The only who is confused is you.



Wait wait wait aren't we talking about the NBA here? How is it short sighted to look at his NBA career? Coming into the NBA they weren't even sure what position Russell Westbrook would be playing or much less that he'd be an all star by his 3rd season. He exceeded all his college expectations and became a top 20 player in the NBA. Something no one expected of him. So why use what we hold what we saw in college as a major decision maker in this discussion?



Going back to his norm right? So tell me exactly which Norm is this. I mean we haven't seen this norm in 3 years I guess he has just learned recently what his norm is right?

Westbrook's issue has nothing to do with defenses learning to how play him. He has done all this to himself by his erratic play and poor decision making.



This makes no sense. Because Harden was a higher pick in a completely different draft that makes him a better player? He was more sought after because he wasn't as raw as Westbrook and didn't rely as much on athletic ability so he was seen as more of a sure thing. It was also clear what he'd be in the NBA which is a 2 guard.

Harden plays a more complete game? Interesting because last I checked Westbrook does everything Harden does outside of scoring efficiently but its not like Harden's a great shooter. He's okay but by no means is he among the best in the league. He scores efficiently however so that is forgiven.

Last season Harden shot just 27% from 16-23 and 34.9% from the 3. Westbrook however shot 36% from 16-23 and 33.0% from the 3. What exactly makes Harden a better shooter?

Why aren't we talking defense either? How about rebounding ability? How about clutch play?

Harden has closed the gap considerably with Westbrook and Westbrook play this season surely hasn't helped his cause but calling him easily better than Westbrook because he was a higher pick, and has a better IQ ignoring other critical aspects of the game just shows favoritism.

Wow. I said that Westbrook was not that good of a player when it came to decision making and basketball IQ. Considering that he plays point guard, these areas of his game weigh heavier when considering his overall makeup. Also, stop twisting my words and adding your own adjectives because no one ever said that he was "easily better than Westbrook".

Secondly, the fact that no one expected him to do that makes my point. He has had outlier seasons that have been aided by the fact that the Thunder were an exciting up and cominig team, and he embodied that. No one was critical because he was overachieving. But now things are expected and when it comes down to it, he doesn't have the mind for basketball, just the body. James Harden has a great blend of both and that is why he is the second best player on the Thunder.

Swashcuff
01-07-2012, 06:50 PM
Wow. I said that Westbrook was not that good of a player when it came to decision making and basketball IQ. Considering that he plays point guard, these areas of his game weigh heavier when considering his overall makeup. Also, stop twisting my words and adding your own adjectives because no one ever said that he was "easily better than Westbrook".

Secondly, the fact that no one expected him to do that makes my point. He has had outlier seasons that have been aided by the fact that the Thunder were an exciting up and cominig team, and he embodied that. No one was critical because he was overachieving. But now things are expected and when it comes down to it, he doesn't have the mind for basketball, just the body. James Harden has a great blend of both and that is why he is the second best player on the Thunder.

So wait wait wait hold up just one minute. Russell Westbrook overachieved for 3 seasons but in 8 games he's back to his norm? That's what you're saying. Now that the Thunder has reached the plateau of being considered legit contenders he has no further to go so he's going to become the player he was in college?

Please tell me I am confused on this.

Baller1
01-07-2012, 06:53 PM
Since last season, I've said that Harden is the best guard to come out of that draft... And I got ripped apart. He's better than Reke, Curry, and Jennings.

I was right though. And I fully believe that. Harden literally has no weakness in his game.

todu82
01-07-2012, 06:54 PM
Russell Westbrook

Baller1
01-07-2012, 06:55 PM
Westbrook for Howard is still my dream scenario. Harden, Durant, and Howard is literally unstoppable.

KnickaBocka.44
01-07-2012, 07:33 PM
So wait wait wait hold up just one minute. Russell Westbrook overachieved for 3 seasons but in 8 games he's back to his norm? That's what you're saying. Now that the Thunder has reached the plateau of being considered legit contenders he has no further to go so he's going to become the player he was in college?

Please tell me I am confused on this.

You are still confused. At this point it seems irreversible. You are like the Simple Jack of this thread.

flea
01-07-2012, 08:04 PM
What are you even talking about? You said a ridiculous thing, got called out, and now you're insulting the person who pointed out that you're wrong. Is that your strategy for internet forums?

Corey
01-07-2012, 08:08 PM
Westbrook is a better overall player. Harden's just a sexy pick right now because he's off to a hot start and Westbrook is off to a cold start.

Westbrook was a top 20 player last year. He's still the same player.

KnickaBocka.44
01-07-2012, 08:31 PM
No Flea, that's not what happened. What I did was bring up the fact that Westbrook came into the league as an extremely exciting player to watch because of his athletic ability but he struggles in areas where great point guards excel such as reading the defense and making his teammates better. Westbrook gets the edge in 1-on-1 D between the 2 though.

Westbrook has not expanded his game and as a result he is being surpassed by Harden as the better overall player on his team. I'm not, and have never said that Westbrook isn't valuable or isn't good or anything. I never even said that it wasn't close. But it is my opinion that James Harden is a better basketball player whereas Russell Westbrook is the better athlete.

Baller1
01-07-2012, 08:31 PM
So wait wait wait hold up just one minute. Russell Westbrook overachieved for 3 seasons but in 8 games he's back to his norm? That's what you're saying. Now that the Thunder has reached the plateau of being considered legit contenders he has no further to go so he's going to become the player he was in college?

Please tell me I am confused on this.

But it's so logical Swash! :laugh:

Eight games is obviously much more representative of a player's skill than three seasons, you don't know what you're talking about.



(I'm hoping you were able to pick up on the sarcasm, haha).

Bruno
01-07-2012, 08:37 PM
Harden.

check the numbers, watch the games.

Bruno
01-07-2012, 08:38 PM
Westbrook is a better overall player. Harden's just a sexy pick right now because he's off to a hot start and Westbrook is off to a cold start.

Westbrook was a top 20 player last year. He's still the same player.

but your making the assumption that Hardens hot start is a fluke and that he hasn't genuinely improved as a player.

flea
01-07-2012, 08:53 PM
8 games and we'll call it - a very good young 6th man is better than the best two-way point guard in the league. While we're at it, Kevin Love has already locked up the MVP because he's averaging 26 points and 15 rebounds. Kyle Lowry is the 2nd best PG in the league, JaVale McGee is the DPOY, and Spencer Hawes is comeback player of the year because he's already better than Dwight now.

KnickaBocka.44
01-07-2012, 09:05 PM
8 games and we'll call it - a very good young 6th man is better than the best two-way point guard in the league. While we're at it, Kevin Love has already locked up the MVP because he's averaging 26 points and 15 rebounds. Kyle Lowry is the 2nd best PG in the league, JaVale McGee is the DPOY, and Spencer Hawes is comeback player of the year because he's already better than Dwight now.

Your first mistake is saying that Westbrook is the best 2 way pg in the league. That would be CP3.

It's not like Westbrook is just struggling with his shot either though. It's also that his turnovers are up and his assists are down by an average of over 3 per game.

ChiSox219
01-07-2012, 10:02 PM
Your first mistake is saying that Westbrook is the best 2 way pg in the league. That would be CP3.

It's not like Westbrook is just struggling with his shot either though. It's also that his turnovers are up and his assists are down by an average of over 3 per game.

Westbrook isn't even the 2nd best two way

It should get better but all Westbrook's assists are coming from shots that Durant and Harden could create themselves.

Baller1
01-07-2012, 10:50 PM
Westbrook isn't even the 2nd best two way

It should get better but all Westbrook's assists are coming from shots that Durant and Harden could create themselves.

That's just simply not true dude. Westbrook can create opportunities for players that no one else in the league can (besides maybe Rose).

topdog
01-07-2012, 11:20 PM
Do you remember last season when they traded Jeff Green for Kendrick Perkins? If you can do you remember what was the #1 concern for the team then? Now tell me does a passing PG help that?

OKC still hs plenty of weaknesses. They need better post scoring to go with their fresh post defense. A pass-first PG can make better use of current offensive non-threats by getting them easy looks.

I still never understood why a team would draft Green just a few spots after taking Durant.

Hustlenomics
01-07-2012, 11:24 PM
Since last season, I've said that Harden is the best guard to come out of that draft... And I got ripped apart. He's better than Reke, Curry, and Jennings.

I was right though. And I fully believe that. Harden literally has no weakness in his game.

he's great

Corey
01-07-2012, 11:58 PM
but your making the assumption that Hardens hot start is a fluke and that he hasn't genuinely improved as a player.
Not really.

I'm making the 'assumption' that Westbrook's cold start is a fluke, though.

Westbrook of last season is a top 20 player. He's off to a bad start and everyone forgets how stellar he was last year.

ChiSox219
01-08-2012, 12:11 AM
That's just simply not true dude. Westbrook can create opportunities for players that no one else in the league can (besides maybe Rose).

Westbrook can make amazing plays, that's not the problem.

Swashcuff
01-08-2012, 12:15 AM
OKC still hs plenty of weaknesses. They need better post scoring to go with their fresh post defense. A pass-first PG can make better use of current offensive non-threats by getting them easy looks.

I still never understood why a team would draft Green just a few spots after taking Durant.

I don't understand that however. A pass first PG would make better use? :confused: Perkins played with the quintessential pass first PG that didn't make him any more of an offensive threat than he currently is and no pass first PG would do that for him or Thabo or Serge (though Serge does have decent potential on that end of the floor).

The main concern was scoring and where would it come from outside of Durant and Westbrook. Now replace Westbrook with say Jose Calderon. Do you really think his style will do better for that team? Things will just be made Harder for Durant not just because he's going to be asked to carry an even heavier scoring load but when Harden isn't on the floor ALL the defensive attention will be paid to him.

As the Thunder are right now Westbrook's style is more beneficial to not only KD but the entire team than say Rondo's style. Sure a pass first PG will create better for his teammates but what's going to happen when defenses clamp down on KD or KD's having a bad night is a pass first PG going to pick up all that slack with his passing or make Kendrick Perkins into a 24 point guy. OKC needs Westbrook's offense and play making more than they need a player to create for KD/Harden.

Swashcuff
01-08-2012, 12:18 AM
but your making the assumption that Hardens hot start is a fluke and that he hasn't genuinely improved as a player.

I think EVERYONE with a brain knows that Harden has improved as a player that's a given. It was expected and its only logical. However Harden is not going to continue having a near 70% TS% or gathering close to .3 WS/48 or have an ORtg of 135 or anywhere near that. He's going to cool off a bit and more or less even out as the season progresses. That too is logical thinking.

Swashcuff
01-08-2012, 12:21 AM
No Flea, that's not what happened. What I did was bring up the fact that Westbrook came into the league as an extremely exciting player to watch because of his athletic ability but he struggles in areas where great point guards excel such as reading the defense and making his teammates better. Westbrook gets the edge in 1-on-1 D between the 2 though.

Westbrook has not expanded his game and as a result he is being surpassed by Harden as the better overall player on his team. I'm not, and have never said that Westbrook isn't valuable or isn't good or anything. I never even said that it wasn't close. But it is my opinion that James Harden is a better basketball player whereas Russell Westbrook is the better athlete.

Could you please please please enlighten us as to how Russell Westbrook doesn't make his teammates better.

Also all of this is contradictory to what you said earlier.

ChiSox219
01-08-2012, 12:24 AM
Funny because I actually read that you yourself have said before that you think Harden should play the PG.



Really? What makes Harden better statistically? His first 8 games of this season and the 17 in last year's playoffs?

I'd REALLY love to see your comprehensive case for Harden being better than Westbrook statistically, especially when we take into consideration both ends of the floor.

As far as raising level of play again what are we talking about last post season? Because that must be the only instance since during the vast majority of the last regular season Westbrook was the far better player in the clutch for the Thunder and the main reason they won their fair share of games.

Tell me something who was more valuable to the Thunder success last season? Russell Westbrook or James Harden?

http://bkref.com/tiny/zcHUs


Oh and Chisox we all know how you feel about Harden which is why you started this thread in the first place. You think he's a top 5 player under 25 in the league and a top 5 SG (and all this was before this season started just based on last season). That by itself shows that you're not going to be logical on anything related to the player like saying he's better statistically based on 8 games this season and 17 games last post season.

I didn't vote

Swashcuff
01-08-2012, 12:25 AM
Harden.

check the numbers, watch the games.

What numbers? what games? By the numbers and the games thus far I can argue that Spencer Hawes is a top 5 C in the league right now you know.

I'm particularly interested in your opinion and Avenged because last season Avenged told me that Westbrook was a top 15 player and better than Carmelo Anthony. Now he's saying that Harden is better. Am I to assume from this that Harden is now a top 20 player or so? Because I find it extremely hard to believe that in 8 games Westbrook has not only fallen out of the top 15 but the top 20.

ChiSox219
01-08-2012, 12:27 AM
I think EVERYONE with a brain knows that Harden has improved as a player that's a given. It was expected and its only logical. However Harden is not going to continue having a near 70% TS% or gathering close to .3 WS/48 or have an ORtg of 135 or anywhere near that. He's going to cool off a bit and more or less even out as the season progresses. That too is logical thinking.

When he does cool off, where do you think those numbers will be?

Swashcuff
01-08-2012, 12:31 AM
http://bkref.com/tiny/zcHUs

So you're comparing the first two seasons of a man who has started 147 games to a man who has started 5. You ignore the fact that in the following season said starter had a breakout year in which he improved on every single aspect of his game. You use a SELECTIVE two year indicator to gauge which player is better than which and you think this is telling something.

This is why the below is so relevant. You apply no context to this argument. Comparing their first two seasons to say who is the better player completely ignoring the best full season of Westbrook's career shows where your allegiance lies.


I didn't vote

What does that have to do with what I said? You had your agenda with this thread and anyone who knows your post history knows what it was.

Swashcuff
01-08-2012, 12:35 AM
When he does cool off, where do you think those numbers will be?

They surely won't be as monumental as they are now. I'm not one who's going to make predictions and say exactly where he'll rank but based on conventional understanding I'd say those metrics would mirror that of Kevin Martin last season which is still very good.

flea
01-08-2012, 12:37 AM
CP3 is probably my favorite player (Hornets fan here) but I still think Westbrook is significantly superior defensively. He was basically a defensive specialist in college on a very talented defensive team. He just stepped up his offensive game and has made himself into an incredibly underrated player (I guess because of whom he plays next to, similar to how Luol Deng is criminally underrated). I won't argue too hard because of course I love CP3, would take him over Westbrook, and think he has a better offensive game, but Westbrook is pretty incredible.

Wade>You
01-08-2012, 12:53 AM
http://sports.yahoo.com/nba/boxscore;_ylt=AkTkRgOpcADhwJTu6R3fn4S8vLYF?gid=201 2010710

slynxpac
01-08-2012, 01:08 AM
Westbrook.

topdog
01-08-2012, 01:15 AM
I don't understand that however. A pass first PG would make better use? :confused: Perkins played with the quintessential pass first PG that didn't make him any more of an offensive threat than he currently is and no pass first PG would do that for him or Thabo or Serge (though Serge does have decent potential on that end of the floor).

The main concern was scoring and where would it come from outside of Durant and Westbrook. Now replace Westbrook with say Jose Calderon. Do you really think his style will do better for that team? Things will just be made Harder for Durant not just because he's going to be asked to carry an even heavier scoring load but when Harden isn't on the floor ALL the defensive attention will be paid to him.

As the Thunder are right now Westbrook's style is more beneficial to not only KD but the entire team than say Rondo's style. Sure a pass first PG will create better for his teammates but what's going to happen when defenses clamp down on KD or KD's having a bad night is a pass first PG going to pick up all that slack with his passing or make Kendrick Perkins into a 24 point guy. OKC needs Westbrook's offense and play making more than they need a player to create for KD/Harden.

I just don't think the team, as currently constructed, is a true championship contender. Yes, I know they made it deep into the playoffs last year, but there is always going to be that liability of relying on reckless Westbrook as your other scorer. Perkins was not the right move in my mind.

What I would propose though is to move Westbrook for a 2-way PF who can force double teams and pick up a PG that can keep the ball moving and hit an open shot. Thabo remains your defensive specialist/3pt. shooter. Perkins could hopefully drop in a pass at the rim here and there. You get an inside-out game going where teams can't focus on Durant. And, yes, I know Westbrook can drive pretty much at will, but he also picks up charges like my wife's credit card :rimshot:

LAdamJ
01-08-2012, 01:22 AM
Westbrook is better but Harden is more valuable. He fills his role better and makes the team better. Westbrook has better trade value though

Swashcuff
01-08-2012, 01:25 AM
I just don't think the team, as currently constructed, is a true championship contender. Yes, I know they made it deep into the playoffs last year, but there is always going to be that liability of relying on reckless Westbrook as your other scorer. Perkins was not the right move in my mind.

What I would propose though is to move Westbrook for a 2-way PF who can force double teams and pick up a PG that can keep the ball moving and hit an open shot. Thabo remains your defensive specialist/3pt. shooter. Perkins could hopefully drop in a pass at the rim here and there. You get an inside-out game going where teams can't focus on Durant. And, yes, I know Westbrook can drive pretty much at will, but he also picks up charges like my wife's credit card :rimshot:

Thing is Thabo is a poor 3 point shooter and they have more or less committed to Serge as their PF of the future. I think the Thunder's best move is to make none (unless they get an offer in which they cannot refuse) and really work on Westbrook's mental. He needs to get a full grasp of his role on offense for his team which is to be a better decision maker. He doesn't have to become something he isn't which is a pass first PG but he also needs to remember that he is playing the PG and should carry out those duties.

I don't know if you noticed but with the rare exception of the Mavs last season and the Spurs earlier this decade every title team of the last decade + has had at least one all star player on it. I understand your point of addition by subtraction but which two way PF do you think is worth Russell Westbrook and benching Serge Ibaka? Or maybe even including Ibaka in the trade. Do you think Kyle Lowry and Luis Scola for Westbrook and Serge is a fair trade? Quite honestly that's about the best they can do in the scenario that you just mentioned.

I think once you're a top 3 team in the West you should be considered a legit title contender. Hell we didn't consider the Mavs legit contenders last season and look at how things turned out for them.

the_antz_nest
01-08-2012, 08:22 AM
I think the thunder should trade westbrook. he has been a cancer to that team in my eyes.
maybe a package for rondo? or cp3 maybe deron....

Baller1
01-08-2012, 02:46 PM
You know your team's good when people are arguing over who the second best player on the team is, the future sixth man of the year or the second team all-nba PG. :laugh:

Bruno
01-10-2012, 07:31 AM
Not really.

I'm making the 'assumption' that Westbrook's cold start is a fluke, though.

Westbrook of last season is a top 20 player. He's off to a bad start and everyone forgets how stellar he was last year.

Not really.

They're just assuming that Hardens hot start isn't a fluke.

KingstonHawke
01-10-2012, 07:43 AM
This is crazy to even be a topic. It's clearly Westbrook. Not even close. Harden looks as good as he does because he plays next to Westbrook. Harden is a great catch and shoot 2. You need penetration for him to be at his best. He's not going to kill a guy off the dribble who has help.

Bruno
01-10-2012, 07:47 AM
What numbers? what games?

http://www.basketball-reference.com/teams/OKC/2012.html

http://www.basketball-reference.com/teams/OKC/2012_games.html


By the numbers and the games thus far I can argue that Spencer Hawes is a top 5 C in the league right now you know.

and if he keeps this up he will be. Phili has the highest SRS in the league and they are the top ranked defense. not a lot of teams can post those kind of numbers without legitimate contributions from the post on both sides of the ball. the season is young, but that doesn't mean we totally dismiss what we've witnessed through ten or so games.


I'm particularly interested in your opinion and Avenged because last season Avenged told me that Westbrook was a top 15 player and better than Carmelo Anthony. Now he's saying that Harden is better. Am I to assume from this that Harden is now a top 20 player or so? Because I find it extremely hard to believe that in 8 games Westbrook has not only fallen out of the top 15 but the top 20.

I can't speak for avenged, but Harden has been the best SG in the league for the 2012 season, statistically speaking. his numbers are better than wades, they're better than Bryants (or at least just as good). I don't think any of us expect it to end like that but thus far he's been fantastic. as far as an overall ranking list, i haven't really thought about it and wouldn't want to throw out any numbers without a few more games, or without making a list. IMO, Harden is a top three SG. especially with the injury to Ginobli, and with the retirement of Brandon Roy.

i think that wbs slow start is a total fluke, and I expect him to find his rhythm soon. even if he does, his 2012 numbers won't match his numbers from 2011. OKC is already 10 games into a 66 game season and he'd have to be significantly better than he was last year, from here out, in order to lift his 10 game averages into his 2011 territory.

WB is a year ahead of Harden, so it was natural for him to post much better numbers than Harden did last year, as a sophomore, during the regular season. wbs role was also much bigger and he got a lot more minutes. this year its a different story; harden averages two minutes less per game than WB, last year WB averaged eight more minutes than harden. roles have changed and players, specifically harden, have matured. I was lucky enough to see Harden match up against Durant during a LA drew league/goodman league game. nobody could guard Harden; the dudes gona be a star, he just needed a bit of experience and maturity first- I think he's close. thats why I think Harden is better than WB, not necessarily because of WBs slow start, specifically.

Bruno
01-10-2012, 07:48 AM
This is crazy to even be a topic. It's clearly Westbrook. Not even close. Harden looks as good as he does because he plays next to Westbrook. Harden is a great catch and shoot 2. You need penetration for him to be at his best. He's not going to kill a guy off the dribble who has help.

haden does plenty of penetrating. dude can create his own shot just fine.

WB and Harden get easy looks because of Durant.

Bruno
01-10-2012, 08:01 AM
2012: Through ten games

Ja. Harden: PER- 25.5, TS%- .663, WS- 1.8, WS/48- .288, USG%- 22.7.
Westbrook: PER- 16.4, TS%- .477, WS- 0.1, WS/48- .021, USG%- 31.7


For everyone who wants to discredit the small sample size of the 2012 season, or who want to stand by the opinion that things will change as the season progresses, or when playoffs begin, here is their comparison from the 2011 playoffs:

OKC Playoffs 2011, Harden/Westbrook Comparison (17 games):

Ja. Harden: PER- 19.1, TS%- .634, WS- 2.2, WS/48- .193, USG%- 17.1
Westbrook: PER- 19.6, TS%- .499, WS- 1.1, WS/48- .084, USG%- 34.4

http://www.basketball-reference.com/teams/OKC/2011.html

Advantage Harden. He's a far more efficient scorer, and a smarter playmaker. he has a higher basketball IQ, a better attitude, and a greater understanding of his role on the team.

Bruno
01-10-2012, 08:07 AM
You know your team's good when people are arguing over who the second best player on the team is, the future sixth man of the year or the second team all-nba PG. :laugh:

i hate to think how you guys would look with Tyson Chandler.

Bruno
01-10-2012, 08:12 AM
I think EVERYONE with a brain knows that Harden has improved as a player that's a given. It was expected and its only logical. However Harden is not going to continue having a near 70% TS% or gathering close to .3 WS/48 or have an ORtg of 135 or anywhere near that. He's going to cool off a bit and more or less even out as the season progresses. That too is logical thinking.

define what you mean by even out. as in drop back into his TS% from last season (.598)? Even if it does drop back to his 2011 level, it's still at an elite percentage for a SG. He's gotten better, he'll finish above .600.

he wouldn't have to have to keep a WS/48 of .3 or an ORtg of 135 to still post significantly better numbers than WB. Even if WB snaps back into forum.

greek miami hea
01-10-2012, 08:44 AM
westbrook

Swashcuff
01-10-2012, 09:23 AM
http://www.basketball-reference.com/teams/OKC/2012.html

http://www.basketball-reference.com/teams/OKC/2012_games.html


But this sample size is extremely small. Is this enough games to say that James Harden is indeed a better player (not the one who is playing better right now). I mean is Spencer Hawes better than Al Horford and Marc Gasol? NO but he's playing better than they are right now.


and if he keeps this up he will be. Phili has the highest SRS in the league and they are the top ranked defense. not a lot of teams can post those kind of numbers without legitimate contributions from the post on both sides of the ball. the season is young, but that doesn't mean we totally dismiss what we've witnessed through ten or so games.

Well bro you kind of just made my point. If Philly keeps this up. Well the same can be said about Harden. If he keeps up this level of play he is but can we defiantly say based on 27 games (27 games in which Westbrook has played sub par and Harden has played out of his mind) that Harden is better?

I'm not dismissing what we've seen in the first 10 games all I am saying is that 10 games can't be used as an accurate measure when we have 150+ games of factual evidence from which to gather an accurate opinion.


I can't speak for avenged, but Harden has been the best SG in the league for the 2012 season, statistically speaking. his numbers are better than wades, they're better than Bryants (or at least just as good). I don't think any of us expect it to end like that but thus far he's been fantastic. as far as an overall ranking list, i haven't really thought about it and wouldn't want to throw out any numbers without a few more games, or without making a list. IMO, Harden is a top three SG. especially with the injury to Ginobli, and with the retirement of Brandon Roy.

No issue with any of this in all honesty because as you say he's the best statistically (through the first 10 games of this season) but that doesn't make him the best overall. Well why isn't that the same with Westbrook?


i think that wbs slow start is a total fluke, and I expect him to find his rhythm soon. even if he does, his 2012 numbers won't match his numbers from 2011. OKC is already 10 games into a 66 game season and he'd have to be significantly better than he was last year, from here out, in order to lift his 10 game averages into his 2011 territory.

Honestly bro how can we say for certain that Westbrook's production isn't going to get better than last season? Can we honestly say that prior to this season we expected such a huge improvement from Harden this early? To the point that he'd be playing like the best SG in the league this early in his career/season?


WB is a year ahead of Harden, so it was natural for him to post much better numbers than Harden did last year, as a sophomore, during the regular season. wbs role was also much bigger and he got a lot more minutes. this year its a different story; harden averages two minutes less per game than WB, last year WB averaged eight more minutes than harden. roles have changed and players, specifically harden, have matured. I was lucky enough to see Harden match up against Durant during a LA drew league/goodman league game. nobody could guard Harden; the dudes gona be a star, he just needed a bit of experience and maturity first- I think he's close. thats why I think Harden is better than WB, not necessarily because of WBs slow start, specifically.

While I have no gripe with none of this I still think though Harden has matured its still a bit too immature to say he's better than Westbrook. By that a case could be made that he's also better (not playing better currently but genuinely better) than a host of other players (who unlike Westbrook isn't playing some of the worst ball of their career). Are we ready to come to that conclusion?

Swashcuff
01-10-2012, 09:24 AM
define what you mean by even out. as in drop back into his TS% from last season (.598)? Even if it does drop back to his 2011 level, it's still at an elite percentage for a SG. He's gotten better, he'll finish above .600.

he wouldn't have to have to keep a WS/48 of .3 or an ORtg of 135 to still post significantly better numbers than WB. Even if WB snaps back into forum.

As I said to Chisox I expect him to be around the Kevin Martin level of last season (in terms of advanced and shooting #s) by seasons end which it still quite good. Asking him to continue to play the way he's playing all season long is more than too much to ask for.

ChiSox219
01-10-2012, 09:42 AM
Swash,

Harden has been doing the same things for an adequate sample size now, his numbers are great this season but its not like he's made some unexpected leap, he's doing the same things that have made made him successful throughout his brief NBA career.

Baller1
01-10-2012, 12:52 PM
This is hard for me to tackle to be honest. We all know Westbrook is struggling, so that has to be taken into account. However, I'm not so sure we can say Harden is overachieving. He's had this ability all along, but now he's getting the minutes and finally has the confidence in himself.

Harden is my favorite player, but even through my bias it'd be stupid for me to say he's better than Russell Westbrook because of the start to this season. Do I think Harden can pass him up? Absolutely, 100%. Harden is so ****ing talented and skilled at this game, I can't even wrap my head around his potential. If there's one player other than Durant I don't want to see this team lose, it's Harden.

BUT, right now, Westbrook is the better player and there isn't much of an argument otherwise. Now, if this trend continues for both players an possibly carries on into the playoffs, then we will have ourselves a legitimate argument here. For now, Westbrook is the second best player on the Thunder, with Harden very rapidly coming up on Westy's trail.

uptownfan
01-10-2012, 01:12 PM
For me it has to be Harden. Westbrook is extremely inconsistent and you don't now what you'll get from him each night. Harden this year has really stepped it up, so I gotta give this title to him

Swashcuff
01-10-2012, 03:06 PM
Swash,

Harden has been doing the same things for an adequate sample size now, his numbers are great this season but its not like he's made some unexpected leap, he's doing the same things that have made made him successful throughout his brief NBA career.

Yeah bro I totally understand what you guys are saying. My point is however he hasn't been playing this well at any point in his career prior to this season. I mean if we ask ourselves who was more important to the Thunder last season between the two we wouldn't say its Harden (though he played pretty well) but early this season we've said that.

I am in no way trying to discredit Harden but its highly unfair to compare him at his best to Westbrook at his worst based on superior statistical dominance and come to the conclusion that he is indeed better.

Mr.ATLHawks
01-10-2012, 03:32 PM
This is about the most open-ended question I have seen. One player strengths is the other players weaknesses. I believe deep down Harden is the more complete player, while not being the most gifted of the two, I think we we'll look back 15 years from now and say defintely Harden. Here is why i say Harden:

1) When the majority of the league says Harden is the best street baller, from those little games they were playing during the lockout, i think that speaks highly of Hardens ability.

2) Harden is a better team player and playmaker then Westbrook

3)Harden is a better consistent shooter

4) Hardens stats are skewed because he comes off the bench

Westbrook is a freak of nature with awesome athletic ability and god given ability, but I dont think he is the right fit for OKC to make a title run. Westbrook fits the UCLA PG mold perfectly(see Baron and Jrue), but he is a shooting guard by nature and plays like one. No doubt this kid can score and defend with the best of them but mentally is he ready? If Westbrook were traded to a team like say Charlotte I think the kid would go ape **** and average 28-30 ppg, but a a secondary option I think he is unable to co-exist with another wing player. Westbrook and Derrick Rose are so close talent wise its crazy, except Derrick is grasping the PG concept alot more then Westbrook is right now and its hurting him. Not to mention the constraints on the Durant/Westbrook relationship. I agree with someone elses post in here. The Thunder need to trade Westbrook now while his value is high and put Harden as the PG b/c that kid can make plays and plays very unselfish, and sometimes too unselfish. Westbrook has to much talent to let him walk, so they should be looking to upgrade their SG or PF spot IMO.

And ill just add this for food for thought. In 5-8 years when Westbrook starts losing that freakish athletic ability and slows down what is he going to have to rely on or will he be another Vince Carter, Gilbert Arenas? I would like to see Westbrooks game advance some and he has been in the legaue for a few years now and im not seeing the progression. The weak areas in his game are still weak....while Harden seems to be progressing

Mr.ATLHawks
01-10-2012, 03:38 PM
if you think harden is better than westbrook should find another sport to watch because you obviously dont understand basketball.

And its clear you dont understand basketball to say "if you think harden is better than westbrook should find another sport to watch because you obviously dont understand basketball"...but from your screen name it seems you are in love with PG's who dont like to pass so im sure you love Westbrooks game.

ChiSox219
01-10-2012, 03:56 PM
Yeah bro I totally understand what you guys are saying. My point is however he hasn't been playing this well at any point in his career prior to this season. I mean if we ask ourselves who was more important to the Thunder last season between the two we wouldn't say its Harden (though he played pretty well) but early this season we've said that.

I am in no way trying to discredit Harden but its highly unfair to compare him at his best to Westbrook at his worst based on superior statistical dominance and come to the conclusion that he is indeed better.

To me, it seems like you are putting too much stress on the stats. Harden is playing the same game he's always played only now he's getting more touches and has an even better grasp of the pro game.

You pointed out earlier, I was on Harden's bandwagon before the season started so I don't understand the argument against Harden that's he's only been successful for this season. I fully acknowledge Harden's stats are likely to regress and Westbrook's numbers should improved but I still think Harden is better.

GrapeSoda
01-10-2012, 05:31 PM
Westbrook .. yes he is obviously strugling but the man was a top 15 player in the NBA last season, it has only been 10 games or so let the man adjust, with that being said Harden has been playing outstanding and I hope they keep this Trio together along with the Big man Ibaka. I kind of hope they move Perk though, not a big fan.

Bruno
01-10-2012, 06:25 PM
2012: Through ten games


For everyone who wants to discredit the small sample size of the 2012 season, or who want to stand by the opinion that things will change as the season progresses, or when playoffs begin, here is their comparison from the 2011 playoffs:

OKC Playoffs 2011, Harden/Westbrook Comparison (17 games):


http://www.basketball-reference.com/teams/OKC/2011.html

Advantage Harden. He's a far more efficient scorer, and a smarter playmaker. he has a higher basketball IQ, a better attitude, and a greater understanding of his role on the team.


But this sample size is extremely small. Is this enough games to say that James Harden is indeed a better player (not the one who is playing better right now). I mean is Spencer Hawes better than Al Horford and Marc Gasol? NO but he's playing better than they are right now.

Well bro you kind of just made my point. If Philly keeps this up. Well the same can be said about Harden. If he keeps up this level of play he is but can we defiantly say based on 27 games (27 games in which Westbrook has played sub par and Harden has played out of his mind) that Harden is better?

While I have no gripe with none of this I still think though Harden has matured its still a bit too immature to say he's better than Westbrook. By that a case could be made that he's also better (not playing better currently but genuinely better) than a host of other players (who unlike Westbrook isn't playing some of the worst ball of their career). Are we ready to come to that conclusion?

I am. :laugh2:

Sorry Swash, I read your whole post, and you make valid points. But I'm sold on the past 27 games (17 key playoff games, and the past ten regular season games). I'd put money on Harden finishing with a higher PER, TS%, WS and WS/48, baring injury.

I think he's the smarter player, and I think he has more natural talent. A 17 game playoff sample size and the ten regular season games thus far carry more weight than the 82 game numbers WB posted last regular season, in my book. WBs numbers were mediocre before his 2011 campaign. You're not putting all your money into a massive sample size either, just one very good regular season.

Bruno
01-10-2012, 06:26 PM
Westbrook was somewhat mediocre in last years playoffs. Everyone saying he was a top whatever player last year needs to reconcile his massive drop off in production and efficiency come OKCS playoff run.

Swashcuff
01-10-2012, 11:52 PM
To me, it seems like you are putting too much stress on the stats. Harden is playing the same game he's always played only now he's getting more touches and has an even better grasp of the pro game.

You pointed out earlier, I was on Harden's bandwagon before the season started so I don't understand the argument against Harden that's he's only been successful for this season. I fully acknowledge Harden's stats are likely to regress and Westbrook's numbers should improved but I still think Harden is better.


I am. :laugh2:

Sorry Swash, I read your whole post, and you make valid points. But I'm sold on the past 27 games (17 key playoff games, and the past ten regular season games). I'd put money on Harden finishing with a higher PER, TS%, WS and WS/48, baring injury.

I think he's the smarter player, and I think he has more natural talent. A 17 game playoff sample size and the ten regular season games thus far carry more weight than the 82 game numbers WB posted last regular season, in my book. WBs numbers were mediocre before his 2011 campaign. You're not putting all your money into a massive sample size either, just one very good regular season.


Westbrook was somewhat mediocre in last years playoffs. Everyone saying he was a top whatever player last year needs to reconcile his massive drop off in production and efficiency come OKCS playoff run.

You guys have to understand that I have no beef with your opinions, my beef however is the fact that this early in the season you guys are already ready to pronounce Harden as the better player based solely on what we've seen the last 28 games. Chisox you say I'm paying attention to the #s too much which is quite the opposite I'm actually ignoring the numbers because with such a small sample size I cannot accurately come to the conclusion that Harden has surpassed Westbrook.

I got to ask you this Chisox when you were on the Harden bandwagon last season did you seriously believe that he was the better/more valuable player than Westbrook.

And Bruno87 prior to the post season did you think Harden was even on Westbrook's tier much less being a better player?

I was one of Westbrook's biggest critics on this site and was called out for saying that it was largely his fault the Thunder didn't play better in the post season however I conceded the fact that hadn't it been for Westbrook the Thunder wouldn't have even had anything close to the record they finished with. Can we really ignore all of last season and focus on the last 28 games which just happened to been when Westbrook played at his worst and Harden took his game up a notch. We can say what we want but there is no way on earth Harden continues THIS high level of play (at least statistically) over the course of an entire season.

sb123
01-10-2012, 11:55 PM
if you think harden is better than westbrook should find another sport to watch because you obviously dont understand basketball.

Spoken like a fannie boy who thinks Shawn Kemp was better than Tim Duncan.

Harden is a much better player. Westbrook athlete.

ChiSox219
01-11-2012, 12:11 AM
I got to ask you this Chisox when you were on the Harden bandwagon last season did you seriously believe that he was the better/more valuable player than Westbrook.



I saw the Thunder play last year in Chicago and at that time Westbrook was hot. Yes, I think Westbrook was better during that time but as the season ran its course, Westbrook's flaws became more apparent while Harden's game matured. We all saw what happened in the playoffs.

http://www.flickr.com/photos/74097244@N00/5241668621/

Swashcuff
01-11-2012, 12:18 AM
I saw the Thunder play last year in Chicago and at that time Westbrook was hot. Yes, I think Westbrook was better during that time but as the season ran its course, Westbrook's flaws became more apparent while Harden's game matured. We all saw what happened in the playoffs.

http://www.flickr.com/photos/74097244@N00/5241668621/

Good seats :cool:

Bruno
01-11-2012, 02:42 AM
And Bruno87 prior to the post season did you think Harden was even on Westbrook's tier much less being a better player?

I was one of Westbrook's biggest critics on this site and was called out for saying that it was largely his fault the Thunder didn't play better in the post season however I conceded the fact that hadn't it been for Westbrook the Thunder wouldn't have even had anything close to the record they finished with. Can we really ignore all of last season and focus on the last 28 games which just happened to been when Westbrook played at his worst and Harden took his game up a notch. We can say what we want but there is no way on earth Harden continues THIS high level of play (at least statistically) over the course of an entire season.

You're putting all your faith in one 82 game regular season. In westbrook, we're not talking about a guy who has been stellar for years. He had one very good regular season, followed by a mediocre playoffs, which he is now following up with a less than mediocre 2012 regular season campaign.

From what I've seen in recent months, from what the most recent 27 games worth of numbers tell me, from what weve seen in Hardens increased role and MPG, I can say with confidence that I believe that Harden is the better player.

My offer still stands; I'll bet you that Harden finishes with a higher PER, TS%, WS and WS/48 than WB.

how convenient for your argument. WB just had his first good game of the season :laugh2:

JJ_JKidd
01-11-2012, 03:07 AM
DURANNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNT!!! WESTBROOK THE FRANCHISE NOOOW DOUBT! :facepalm:

Swashcuff
01-11-2012, 12:28 PM
You're putting all your faith in one 82 game regular season. In westbrook, we're not talking about a guy who has been stellar for years. He had one very good regular season, followed by a mediocre playoffs, which he is now following up with a less than mediocre 2012 regular season campaign.

From what I've seen in recent months, from what the most recent 27 games worth of numbers tell me, from what weve seen in Hardens increased role and MPG, I can say with confidence that I believe that Harden is the better player.

My offer still stands; I'll bet you that Harden finishes with a higher PER, TS%, WS and WS/48 than WB.

how convenient for your argument. WB just had his first good game of the season :laugh2:

And Harden had his worst :laugh2: Now if such a trend (Westbrook playing well and Harden struggling) continues for 8 of the next 10 games I bet we'd be having a totally different argument in a couple weeks.

Oh and I must be crazy to take that bet, outside of his PER I myself don't think Westbrook's advanced #s are going to be better than Harden's especially given the role in which Harden is asked to play.

Also I'd rather put my stock in 82 games of which Russell Westbrook showed on occasion after occasion that he was indeed the 2nd best player on his team as well as being a top 15-20 player in the league.


Kevin Durant Russell Westbrook
G Date Opp GmSc G Date Opp GmSc
1 10/27/2010 CHI 16.4 1 10/27/2010 CHI 27.6
2 10/29/2010 DET 21.7 2 10/29/2010 DET 16.8
3 10/31/2010 UTA 16 3 10/31/2010 UTA 21.3
4 11/3/2010 LAC 0.6 4 11/3/2010 LAC 13.4
5 11/4/2010 POR 16.2 5 11/4/2010 POR 19.8
6 11/7/2010 BOS 23.3 6 11/7/2010 BOS 11.6
7 11/10/2010 PHI 25.9 7 11/10/2010 PHI 24
8 11/12/2010 POR 24.3 8 11/12/2010 POR 34
9 11/14/2010 SAS 11 9 11/14/2010 SAS 15.1
10 11/15/2010 UTA 24.1 10 11/15/2010 UTA 16.1
11 11/17/2010 HOU 15.5 11 11/17/2010 HOU 22.1
12 11/22/2010 MIN 24.4 12 11/19/2010 BOS 18.3
13 11/24/2010 DAL 25.8 13 11/20/2010 MIL 9.1
14 11/26/2010 IND 12.8 14 11/22/2010 MIN 18
15 11/28/2010 HOU 7.7 15 11/24/2010 DAL 11.6
16 11/29/2010 NOH 17.5 16 11/26/2010 IND 40.5
17 12/5/2010 GSW 23.2 17 11/28/2010 HOU 22.3
18 12/6/2010 CHI 21.7 18 11/29/2010 NOH 21.5
19 12/8/2010 MIN 19.7 19 12/1/2010 NJN 28.8
20 12/10/2010 NOH 18.5 20 12/3/2010 TOR 13.1
21 12/12/2010 CLE 14.7 21 12/5/2010 GSW 17.5
22 12/15/2010 HOU 24.5 22 12/6/2010 CHI 9
23 12/17/2010 SAC 18.9 23 12/8/2010 MIN 18.6
24 12/19/2010 PHO 21.4 24 12/10/2010 NOH 21.5
25 12/21/2010 CHA 29 25 12/12/2010 CLE 16.2
26 12/22/2010 NYK 18.8 26 12/15/2010 HOU 12.5
27 12/25/2010 DEN 37.3 27 12/17/2010 SAC 13.9
28 12/27/2010 DAL 19.2 28 12/19/2010 PHO 11.9
29 12/29/2010 NJN 16.9 29 12/21/2010 CHA 6.8
30 12/31/2010 ATL 23.5 30 12/22/2010 NYK 12.9
31 1/1/2011 SAS 7.8 31 12/25/2010 DEN 13.3
32 1/4/2011 MEM 16.4 32 12/27/2010 DAL 12.9
33 1/6/2011 DAL 18.1 33 12/29/2010 NJN 15.6
34 1/8/2011 MEM 30.3 34 12/31/2010 ATL 22.6
35 1/12/2011 HOU 19.1 35 1/1/2011 SAS -0.3
36 1/13/2011 ORL 30.4 36 1/4/2011 MEM 21
37 1/17/2011 LAL 10.6 37 1/6/2011 DAL 10.6
38 1/19/2011 DEN 15.6 38 1/8/2011 MEM 22.5
39 1/22/2011 NYK 17.7 39 1/12/2011 HOU 21.8
40 1/24/2011 NOH 12.6 40 1/13/2011 ORL 34.1
41 1/26/2011 MIN 41.2 41 1/17/2011 LAL 28.1
42 1/28/2011 WAS 25 42 1/19/2011 DEN 24.7
43 1/30/2011 MIA 25.7 43 1/22/2011 NYK 22.2
44 2/2/2011 NOH 40.3 44 1/24/2011 NOH 15
45 2/4/2011 PHO 18.9 45 1/26/2011 MIN 6.8
46 2/5/2011 UTA 15.3 46 1/28/2011 WAS 31.8
47 2/8/2011 MEM 22.6 47 1/30/2011 MIA 17.8
48 2/12/2011 SAC 24.4 48 2/2/2011 NOH 7.2
49 2/13/2011 GSW 19.3 49 2/4/2011 PHO 18.7
50 2/15/2011 SAC 10.1 50 2/5/2011 UTA 32.5
51 2/22/2011 LAC 13.1 51 2/8/2011 MEM 12.1
52 2/23/2011 SAS 24.2 52 2/12/2011 SAC 19.8
53 2/25/2011 ORL 11 53 2/13/2011 GSW 9.3
54 2/27/2011 LAL 10.5 54 2/15/2011 SAC 13.3
55 3/2/2011 IND 18.9 55 2/22/2011 LAC 12
56 3/4/2011 ATL 25.3 56 2/23/2011 SAS 14.3
57 3/6/2011 PHO 12 57 2/25/2011 ORL 9.5
58 3/7/2011 MEM 14.5 58 2/27/2011 LAL 11.8
59 3/9/2011 PHI 23.9 59 3/2/2011 IND 20.5
60 3/11/2011 DET 26.5 60 3/4/2011 ATL 24.9
61 3/13/2011 CLE 14.6 61 3/6/2011 PHO 24.7
62 3/14/2011 WAS 27.4 62 3/7/2011 MEM 17
63 3/16/2011 MIA 24.5 63 3/9/2011 PHI 18.8
64 3/18/2011 CHA 20.2 64 3/11/2011 DET 10.9
65 3/20/2011 TOR 8.7 65 3/13/2011 CLE 18.3
66 3/23/2011 UTA 21.9 66 3/14/2011 WAS 18.9
67 3/25/2011 MIN 17.4 67 3/16/2011 MIA 7
68 3/27/2011 POR 14.5 68 3/18/2011 CHA 13.7
69 3/29/2011 GSW 31.9 69 3/20/2011 TOR 12.5
70 3/30/2011 PHO 16.9 70 3/23/2011 UTA 26.7
71 4/1/2011 POR 14.1 71 3/25/2011 MIN 17.3
72 4/2/2011 LAC 12.5 72 3/27/2011 POR 20.7
73 4/5/2011 DEN 24.6 73 3/29/2011 GSW 7.8
74 4/6/2011 LAC 16.5 74 3/30/2011 PHO 15.5
75 4/8/2011 DEN 18.6 75 4/1/2011 POR 12.2
76 4/10/2011 LAL 22.3 76 4/2/2011 LAC 3.6
77 4/11/2011 SAC 21.5 77 4/5/2011 DEN 9.3
78 4/13/2011 MIL 8.6 78 4/6/2011 LAC 23
79 4/8/2011 DEN 18.6
80 4/10/2011 LAL 20.5
81 4/11/2011 SAC 24.8
82 4/13/2011 MIL 19.9

On 29 of the 78 occasions in which Russell Westbrook and Kevin Durant played together last season Westbrook finished with a better game score than Durant himself. So in all honesty I'd take those 29 games over Harden's now 27 games.

I'll give Harden until at least mid season to prove that he's indeed the better player. I'll repeat it one last time that I think it's extremely premature to say Harden is better (not going to be but the better player) than Westbrook when it hasn't even been a quarter of a shorten season.

Swashcuff
02-02-2012, 12:18 AM
I'm not usually the type to bump but I think this is a good a time as any to do so.

Is their anyone who really thinks now that Westbrook's first 3 seasons in the league was a fluke, and he's now longer worthy of being a top 20 player and Harden is easily better than him and he's a horrible clutch player etc etc etc? Am I still wrong for thinking that 8 games was too small of a sample size?

He just won WC player of the week honours and led his team to a clutch victory over the defending champs when KD wasn't having his best shooting night and where Harden realized that it would be best if he played the role of a supporting player since Westbrook is playing so well. IMO Westbrook hasn't even started to really get going. When he does he's going to remind us as to why at various points last season he was being seen as the Thunder's best player (as he was tonight for them) for games on end.

ChiSox219
04-22-2012, 07:12 PM
I'm not usually the type to bump but I think this is a good a time as any to do so.

Is their anyone who really thinks now that Westbrook's first 3 seasons in the league was a fluke, and he's now longer worthy of being a top 20 player and Harden is easily better than him and he's a horrible clutch player etc etc etc? Am I still wrong for thinking that 8 games was too small of a sample size?

He just won WC player of the week honours and led his team to a clutch victory over the defending champs when KD wasn't having his best shooting night and where Harden realized that it would be best if he played the role of a supporting player since Westbrook is playing so well. IMO Westbrook hasn't even started to really get going. When he does he's going to remind us as to why at various points last season he was being seen as the Thunder's best player (as he was tonight for them) for games on end.

Harden's TS% is now .122 points higher than Westbrook's

going into today:

Harden clutch time Ast/Tov = 15/1
Westbrook clutch time Ast/Tov= 10/14

felixng2012
04-22-2012, 07:18 PM
Harden is much far more efficient and he is younger. Westbrook also seems to have a low bball IQ. I would say Harden but its close.

dh144498
04-23-2012, 10:53 PM
why isn't durant an option?:confused:

JK

westbrick

felixng2012
04-24-2012, 01:17 AM
why isn't durant an option?:confused:

JK

westbrick

Cause he is the best no question. :rolleyes:

Jayrich28
04-24-2012, 01:24 AM
The beard

Antipod
04-24-2012, 01:41 AM
Surely, not Westbroook :)

chrisf975
04-24-2012, 02:20 AM
why isn't durant an option?:confused:

JK

westbrick

I see what you did there.