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View Full Version : Should Defense get you in the hall of fame?



Nick O
01-06-2012, 03:33 PM
There are a few players ive been wondering whether or not have had HOF careers despite not being big scorers. i feel like Defense in basketball is extremely underated and the biggest guy i was thinking of is Dikembe Mutombo.
4x Defensive player of the year
8x all star
3x all NBA defensive first team 4 time second team
3289 blocks 2nd all time 2.8 bpg
12359 rebounds 10.3 rpg
11792 points 9.9 ppg
all around amazing guy
he averaged a career double double (almost) and yet ive talked to people who believe he shouldnt get into the HOF for his lack of offensive production but i feel that bull ****.

others i include are Ben Wallace , maybe Ron Artest but but not really i mean hell Rodman JUST GOT IN!?!?! i feel like defensive players are undervalued. and D should get you in the hall.what do you think?

gilly
01-06-2012, 03:40 PM
Yes. Basketball is a two way game.

Nick O
01-06-2012, 03:44 PM
Yes. Basketball is a two way game.

well yes it should.. but i wouldnt say it really has historically

AntiG
01-06-2012, 03:51 PM
Yes, as gilly stated.

There are players that get in with shoddy defense but can play offense like jesus in sneaks (Steve Nash is the prime example).

Dennis Rodman should have been in years ago. Greatest rebounder in NBA history and one of the top 10 defenders in the history of the game. Ben Wallace had better get in. Ron Artest, meh. Never was really a dominant player. Mutombo I'd certainly consider.

Nick O
01-06-2012, 03:55 PM
Yes, as gilly stated.

There are players that get in with shoddy defense but can play offense like jesus in sneaks (Steve Nash is the prime example).

Dennis Rodman should have been in years ago. Greatest rebounder in NBA history and one of the top 10 defenders in the history of the game. Ben Wallace had better get in. Ron Artest, meh. Never was really a dominant player. Mutombo I'd certainly consider.

ya i stated artest because hes been an above average offensive player and has been known to shut down the best players in the game on D but i agree with meh :P

NYKalltheway
01-06-2012, 03:56 PM
yes, plain and simple.

MountainDew
01-06-2012, 04:04 PM
Dikembe Mutombo is absolutely a HOF'er IMO so yes defense should get you in.

WildcatsPride
01-06-2012, 04:08 PM
Mutumbo IMO is a HOFer, if he doesn't get in, it's a travesty. Dennis Rodman wasn't a great offensive player, but he got in for his defense.

Swashcuff
01-06-2012, 04:08 PM
yes, plain and simple.

:nod:

Nick O
01-06-2012, 04:10 PM
Mutumbo IMO is a HOFer, if he doesn't get in, it's a travesty. Dennis Rodman wasn't a great offensive player, but he got in for his defense.

this is the thing i have a feeling he wont.. which is kind of sickening. i was a huge Mutumbo fan even though i never got to see him in his prime he was still a great defender at the end and watching video of his prime he was as lockdown as it gets. loved the guy

Gators123
01-06-2012, 04:17 PM
I would love to see an undrafted guy like Ben Wallace make the HOF.

* NBA Champion (2004)
* 4 NBA Defensive Player of the Year (2002–2003, 2005–2006)
* 4 NBA All-Star (2003–2006)
* 3 All-NBA Second Team (2003–2004, 2006)
* 2 All-NBA Third Team (2002, 2005)
* 5 NBA All-Defensive First Team (2002–2006)
* NBA All-Defensive Second Team (2007)

WildcatsPride
01-06-2012, 04:21 PM
this is the thing i have a feeling he wont.. which is kind of sickening. i was a huge Mutumbo fan even though i never got to see him in his prime he was still a great defender at the end and watching video of his prime he was as lockdown as it gets. loved the guy

The only thing that I can see that would keep Mutumbo out of the HOF is the fact that he has no rings. No rings shouldn't keep him out though, Karl Malone and John Stockton don't have rings either, they made it.

Wade>You
01-06-2012, 04:31 PM
Simply put, yes.

Hellcrooner
01-06-2012, 04:35 PM
it only gets you in if you have a strident personality and make the news with ridiculous stupiditys on a daily basis : Rodman.


This dude is like 10000 times the player rodman was, and not only a defesnive beast but solid attacking. and he is still waiting.

http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/j/jonesbo01.html

CaptainClutch
01-06-2012, 04:36 PM
Two way street in the NBA...of course!

gilly
01-06-2012, 04:51 PM
it only gets you in if you have a strident personality and make the news with ridiculous stupiditys on a daily basis : Rodman.


This dude is like 10000 times the player rodman was, and not only a defesnive beast but solid attacking. and he is still waiting.

http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/j/jonesbo01.html

Agree. Bobby Jones is one of my favourite players of all time.

Swashcuff
01-06-2012, 05:05 PM
Agree. Bobby Jones is one of my favourite players of all time.

Fully agreed. It's an absolute travesty that Jones isn't in the HOF. Described by some as the greatest clutch defensive player in the history of the game. Great call by Crooner.

ztilzer31
01-06-2012, 05:06 PM
There are a few players ive been wondering whether or not have had HOF careers despite not being big scorers. i feel like Defense in basketball is extremely underated and the biggest guy i was thinking of is Dikembe Mutombo.
4x Defensive player of the year
8x all star
3x all NBA defensive first team 4 time second team
3289 blocks 2nd all time 2.8 bpg
12359 rebounds 10.3 rpg
11792 points 9.9 ppg
all around amazing guy
he averaged a career double double (almost) and yet ive talked to people who believe he shouldnt get into the HOF for his lack of offensive production but i feel that bull ****.

others i include are Ben Wallace , maybe Ron Artest but but not really i mean hell Rodman JUST GOT IN!?!?! i feel like defensive players are undervalued. and D should get you in the hall.what do you think?

In fairness rodman was a part of 5 championship teams, and was also one of the best rebounders of all time.... In any sport championships, and anything you were "one of the best all times at" gets you to the hall of fame.

If the player is literally only good at defense then no IMO. Ben Wallace=no just like Bruce Bowen=no. They were both great defenders, but that was really all they were good for.

Swashcuff
01-06-2012, 05:08 PM
In fairness rodman was a part of 5 championship teams, and was also one of the best rebounders of all time.... In any sport championships, and anything you were "one of the best all times at" gets you to the hall of fame.

If the player is literally only good at defense then no IMO. Ben Wallace=no just like Bruce Bowen=no. They were both great defenders, but that was really all they were good for.

Wasn't Ben Wallace an all time great rebounder too? As well as arguably being a top 5-7 defensive C ever. I'd say no to Bowen maybe but Wallace has a great a shot as anyone IMO. He anchored the best defensive team of his time.

JordansBulls
01-06-2012, 05:13 PM
Dikembe and Ben Wallace are no brainers for the Hall though.

Nick O
01-06-2012, 05:25 PM
it only gets you in if you have a strident personality and make the news with ridiculous stupiditys on a daily basis : Rodman.


This dude is like 10000 times the player rodman was, and not only a defesnive beast but solid attacking. and he is still waiting.

http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/j/jonesbo01.html

.. 10000 times the player rodman was? i agree he should be in the hall tho

KingPosey
01-06-2012, 05:26 PM
I was trying to explain this the other day, but my buddy was being stubborn. Jerry Rice had tons of catches, yards, TDs, he was amazing, but he just played absolutely ZERO defense. Its ridiculous.

KingPosey
01-06-2012, 05:29 PM
it only gets you in if you have a strident personality and make the news with ridiculous stupiditys on a daily basis : Rodman.


This dude is like 10000 times the player rodman was, and not only a defesnive beast but solid attacking. and he is still waiting.

http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/j/jonesbo01.html

lol oookkkk.

SportsAndrew25
01-06-2012, 05:32 PM
If Dennis Rodman could make it in, it is very possible.

Chronz
01-06-2012, 06:23 PM
No, it would drop the bar for HOF so drastically. Deke is a HOF but Bruce Bowen, Cooper and Ron Artest sure arent.

Iodine
01-06-2012, 06:26 PM
Mutombo is gonna get in for the stuff he did off the court anyway........

Edit: either way, how do you define defense?
Mark Eaton and Tree Rollins are both in the top 10 in career blocks
the top 3 for SPG career wise are
1. Alvin Robertson 2.71
2. Micheal Ray Richardson 2.63
3. Fatty Taylor 2.40

It sets a scary precedent, as a lot of guys who are role players like Chronz said would suddenly be decided to have a case.

SteveNash
01-06-2012, 06:31 PM
Dikembe and Ben Wallace are no brainers for the Hall though.

This.


No, it would drop the bar for HOF so drastically. Deke is a HOF but Bruce Bowen, Cooper and Ron Artest sure arent.

And this, though I could see a Shane Battier squeaking by.

Nick O
01-06-2012, 06:32 PM
This.



And this, though I could see a Shane Battier squeaking by.

lol wut... that i dont see

Lakers + Giants
01-06-2012, 06:56 PM
Defense wins championships. My answer is absolutely!

SteveNash
01-06-2012, 06:59 PM
lol wut... that i dont see

Not saying I agree with it, but they've let in a lot of questionable players.

Nick O
01-06-2012, 07:14 PM
Not saying I agree with it, but they've let in a lot of questionable players.

is it wrong that ive always found Bill Walton questionable? ..... it probably is :P

Evolution23
01-06-2012, 07:16 PM
All around game should get you in the hall of fame.

Hellcrooner
01-06-2012, 07:26 PM
No, it would drop the bar for HOF so drastically. Deke is a HOF but Bruce Bowen, Cooper and Ron Artest sure arent.

What bout Alvin robertson or Bobby jones?

Chronz
01-06-2012, 08:06 PM
What bout Alvin robertson or Bobby jones?
There MIGHT be room in MY HOF, but based on the current HOF, yes both should be in anyways.

Swashcuff
01-06-2012, 10:02 PM
is it wrong that ive always found Bill Walton questionable? ..... it probably is :P

That's wrong if every single p ossicle level. In the basketball HOF of course Bill Walton has to be a part. By no means is he questionable.

Vinylman
01-06-2012, 10:06 PM
T.R. Dunn says yes :cool:

Hellcrooner
01-06-2012, 10:35 PM
That's wrong if every single p ossicle level. In the basketball HOF of course Bill Walton has to be a part. By no means is he questionable.

the key word is BASKETBALL hall of fame.

Some people miss that.

If im not mistaken he posted some great stats in the ncaa and won some titles too with ucla.
The he won rings in nba.

Iodine
01-07-2012, 02:18 AM
That's wrong if every single p ossicle level. In the basketball HOF of course Bill Walton has to be a part. By no means is he questionable.

Its because people don't study basketball history on here an only think of commentator Walton, not a guy who before his horrible feet ruined his prime feasted on Kareem and friends.

Having Walton not on your top 50 is questionable (and wrong IMO) but not in the HoF is laughable.

Cal827
01-07-2012, 02:42 AM
Wait a minute. We had to play Defense to become eligible for the hall of fame?!

-Carmelo Anthony and Amar'e Stoudemire during their retirement party.

:D

Need to either set some amazing records or be consistently strong. As Chronz mentioned, World Peace shouldn't be in the hall of fame.

Law25
01-07-2012, 03:03 AM
I would love to see an undrafted guy like Ben Wallace make the HOF.

* NBA Champion (2004)
* 4 NBA Defensive Player of the Year (20022003, 20052006)
* 4 NBA All-Star (20032006)
* 3 All-NBA Second Team (20032004, 2006)
* 2 All-NBA Third Team (2002, 2005)
* 5 NBA All-Defensive First Team (20022006)
* NBA All-Defensive Second Team (2007)

Thats a solid resume from Big Ben :clap: Ifhe had atleast 2 Fiest teams Id say guaranteed HOFer. I just dont know if its enough though.

Law25
01-07-2012, 03:05 AM
the key word is BASKETBALL hall of fame.

Some people miss that.

If im not mistaken he posted some great stats in the ncaa and won some titles too with ucla.
The he won rings in nba.

:clap:

alexander_37
01-07-2012, 03:49 AM
If Mutumbo does not get in the NBA is a bigger joke than it is now.

Ben Wallace is iffy but I don't think he was quite good enough offensively.

Swashcuff
01-07-2012, 11:03 AM
Guys what about the Squid? Sidney Moncrief. Easily the most accomplished (defensively) guard of all time. A strong could be made that he was the best defensive guard to ever play the game though he was only 6'3 and spent virtually all his time guarding bigger players.

Aside from being a great defensive player he is also one of the most efficient scorers ever and unlike my boy Bobby Jones he actually generated a great deal of offense to go with his efficiency. At his peak he averaged 22.5 ppg with a TS% over 60. Had it not been for injuries his career #s may have looked way better as well as his overall resume.

2 NBA Defensive Player of the Year (1983–1984)
5 NBA All-Star (1982–1986)
All-NBA First Team (1983)
4 All-NBA Second Team (1982, 1984–1986)
4 NBA All-Defensive First Team (1983–1986)
NBA All-Defensive Second Team (1982)
Consensus NCAA All-American First Team (1979)

IMO if Mutumbo is a HOFer then so should Moncrief.

Michael Jordan once said "When you play against Moncrief, you're in for a night of all-around basketball. He'll hound you everywhere you go, both ends of the court. You just expect it."

The guy is truly one of the overlooked players in league history and him not being in the Hall is testament that defense is something that may be overlooked.

Gram
01-07-2012, 12:02 PM
Oh it should.

Gram
01-07-2012, 12:02 PM
If Mutumbo does not get in the NBA is a bigger joke than it is now.

Ben Wallace is iffy but I don't think he was quite good enough offensively.

Thread's not about offense, it's about defense. ;)

Sportfan
01-07-2012, 12:06 PM
Yes, but only the elite of the elite. Other than the select few who you know are great, it can be hard to tell who's a good defender and who's not. Much easier to tell by offense because all you need is points

NYKalltheway
01-07-2012, 12:08 PM
Yes, but only the elite of the elite. Other than the select few who you know are great, it can be hard to tell who's a good defender and who's not. Much easier to tell by offense because all you need is points

that applies to offensive only players as well though

Geargo Wallace
01-07-2012, 12:15 PM
Bill Walton deserved it. He was great on both sides of the floor, and had some great all around skills. I wish he wasn't born with ******** feet so we could have seen him in his prime dusting Kareem.

Raps18-19 Champ
01-07-2012, 12:21 PM
If they were really great at it and would be at the top of league history or near it.

I wouldn't mind putting someone like Dennis Rodman. But someone like Marcus Camby could be a bit iffy for me.

Hellcrooner
01-07-2012, 01:11 PM
Guys what about the Squid? Sidney Moncrief. Easily the most accomplished (defensively) guard of all time. A strong could be made that he was the best defensive guard to ever play the game though he was only 6'3 and spent virtually all his time guarding bigger players.

Aside from being a great defensive player he is also one of the most efficient scorers ever and unlike my boy Bobby Jones he actually generated a great deal of offense to go with his efficiency. At his peak he averaged 22.5 ppg with a TS% over 60. Had it not been for injuries his career #s may have looked way better as well as his overall resume.

2 NBA Defensive Player of the Year (1983–1984)
5 NBA All-Star (1982–1986)
All-NBA First Team (1983)
4 All-NBA Second Team (1982, 1984–1986)
4 NBA All-Defensive First Team (1983–1986)
NBA All-Defensive Second Team (1982)
Consensus NCAA All-American First Team (1979)

IMO if Mutumbo is a HOFer then so should Moncrief.

Michael Jordan once said "When you play against Moncrief, you're in for a night of all-around basketball. He'll hound you everywhere you go, both ends of the court. You just expect it."

The guy is truly one of the overlooked players in league history and him not being in the Hall is testament that defense is something that may be overlooked.

Probably but id take Bobby Jones and Alvin Robertson before Moncrief.

Hof is been taking some strange decisions lately tough, specially in the International acomplishments department.

They have Dalipaglic, Sabonis, Petrovic and Meneghing in already

But Oscar schmidt is not yet in ( he happens to be the dude that has scored more pro points anywhere in the world, with a good lead over kareerm in less seasons)

And neither its in J.A San epifanio, who happens to have been selected as the best European player of the 80s, yep over sabonis, petrovic and etc.

Swashcuff
01-07-2012, 01:18 PM
Probably but id take Bobby Jones and Alvin Robertson before Moncrief.

Hof is been taking some strange decisions lately tough, specially in the International acomplishments department.

They have Dalipaglic, Sabonis, Petrovic and Meneghing in already

But Oscar schmidt is not yet in ( he happens to be the dude that has scored more pro points anywhere in the world, with a good lead over kareerm in less seasons)

And neither its in J.A San epifanio, who happens to have been selected as the best European player of the 80s, yep over sabonis, petrovic and etc.

Why though, I mean I love Bobby but I don't even think he should be in there before Squid and Robertson? Uh no.

Hellcrooner
01-07-2012, 01:21 PM
Why though, I mean I love Bobby but I don't even think he should be in there before Squid and Robertson? Uh no.

How difficult is to be in all defensive teams for your ENTIRE career?

Thats what we are talking with Bobby Jones here, Not to mention he was a very important part in winning a Ring and getting to several finals.

4 alltars too.

Simply Jones teams ahd more succes than Moncriefs, GOING against the same competition ( birds celtics/ Mgic Lakers)
That has to count for something.

rockbottom2010
01-07-2012, 01:24 PM
it depends how good the player was....if was bruce bowen or doug christie....no....but if it was mutumbo or rodman....yes indeed...and another player should get consideration down the road is ben wallace...he was a beast at his prime......

rockbottom2010
01-07-2012, 01:28 PM
If Mutumbo does not get in the NBA is a bigger joke than it is now.

Ben Wallace is iffy but I don't think he was quite good enough offensively.

look at his size...he was juss another charles barkley...without wallace...there wouldn't be a dynasty for the pistons...thats for surre....remember....they beat the lakers in 5....

Swashcuff
01-07-2012, 01:32 PM
How difficult is to be in all defensive teams for your ENTIRE career?

Thats what we are talking with Bobby Jones here, Not to mention he was a very important part in winning a Ring and getting to several finals.

4 alltars too.

Simply Jones teams ahd more succes than Moncriefs, GOING against the same competition ( birds celtics/ Mgic Lakers)
That has to count for something.

I know all about Jones' career and each and everyone of his accomplishments however Moncrief has 2 DOPY awards while Jones has zero. IMO that's equally as impressive as making 11 straight All Team D given the fact that Squid was a 6'3 SG.

Squid also had more All Star appearances and led his teams to the playoffs as their best player on both offense and D. Though Jones had a great role to play in our teams (a really underrated one if you ask me) winning a title as a team's 3rd/4th best player isn't very impressive when you take into consideration that had Squid been on that team we'd have won just the same.

Hellcrooner
01-07-2012, 01:37 PM
I know all about Jones' career and each and everyone of his accomplishments however Moncrief has 2 DOPY awards while Jones has zero. IMO that's equally as impressive as making 11 straight All Team D given the fact that Squid was a 6'3 SG.

Squid also had more All Star appearances and led his teams to the playoffs as their best player on both offense and D. Though Jones had a great role to play in our teams (a really underrated one if you ask me) winning a title as a team's 3rd/4th best player isn't very impressive when you take into consideration that had Squid been on that team we'd have won just the same.

Dont forget too add too that he had the titanic task to clean up world be frees defensive mess for 3 yeaars :p

Swashcuff
01-07-2012, 01:43 PM
Dont forget too add too that he had the titanic task to clean up world be frees defensive mess for 3 yeaars :p

:laugh2:

Okay... How about Robertson over Squid what's your reasoning there?

Kakaroach
01-07-2012, 01:52 PM
Select few, just like with offense. Dikembe HAS to get in. Wallace is up for debate, but I could just as easily see him getting into the hall.

blastmasta26
01-07-2012, 02:04 PM
I agree that it should be treated like offense. If you only play one side of the ball well, you better be one of the best ever at that end to make the Hall. That way you can eliminate lower level players who were merely good defenders from getting in.

dtmagnet
01-07-2012, 02:21 PM
Mutumbo did a lot for basketball in Africa, so you have to look at more than his NBA career since it is the "basketball" hall of fame not the "NBA" hall of fame. But yes defense definitely counts towards your consideration.

Nick O
01-07-2012, 04:17 PM
Thread's not about offense, it's about defense. ;)

exactly. i think Ben should get in for sure. imo

alexander_37
01-07-2012, 07:22 PM
Ok let;s put it like this. If Ben Wallace gets in Shane Battier should.

Nick O
01-07-2012, 07:23 PM
Ok let;s put it like this. If Ben Wallace gets in Shane Battier should.

shane has never even been a first team defensive player... he only made the second team twice. hes not Ben

alexander_37
01-07-2012, 07:26 PM
shane has never even been a first team defensive player... he only made the second team twice. hes not Ben

The question is should defense get you in not defensive accolades. Shane Battier was a top 5 if not 3 wing defender from 2001-2010.

Nick O
01-07-2012, 07:43 PM
The question is should defense get you in not defensive accolades. Shane Battier was a top 5 if not 3 wing defender from 2001-2010.

true but ben wallace was the BEST defender for almost a decade..

Chronz
01-07-2012, 10:41 PM
shane has never even been a first team defensive player... he only made the second team twice. hes not Ben


Another reason why the All D Teams are a joke.

AntiG
01-07-2012, 11:56 PM
All around game should get you in the hall of fame.

Then Steve Nash would have no business in the HOF. Throw out Dirk, Gasol, Melo and Stat too in potential future bids because they are all pretty crappy on D.

AntiG
01-08-2012, 12:00 AM
true but ben wallace was the BEST defender for almost a decade..

Exactly. One should also consider the overall effect that the player has on the team as a whole defensively. Recent examples being KG on Boston and Chandler on Dallas (not saying that he should be in but its an example of the effect of the individual on team defense overall). Rodman, Wallace and Mutombo definitely were exactly that throughout their entire careers.

Swashcuff
01-08-2012, 12:51 AM
Ok let;s put it like this. If Ben Wallace gets in Shane Battier should.

This makes no sense whatsoever. If you read and understand the case made in the OP (the guy used accolades for crying out loud) then obviously you'd understand what is actually being asked. :pity:

Nick O
01-08-2012, 12:53 AM
This makes no sense whatsoever. If you read and understand the case made in the OP (the guy used accolades for crying out loud) then obviously you'd understand what is actually being asked. :pity:

:nod:

KingPosey
01-08-2012, 02:04 AM
is it wrong that ive always found Bill Walton questionable? ..... it probably is :P

No way its not wong, his pro career is very suspect ( yes i know he had injury issues).

While he was pretty damn good while not injured, he just could staya healthy. A lot of people think his entry has a lot to do with his amazing college career.

Dilbert456
01-08-2012, 03:32 AM
Definitely, defense is just as important as offense

alexander_37
01-08-2012, 03:50 AM
This makes no sense whatsoever. If you read and understand the case made in the OP (the guy used accolades for crying out loud) then obviously you'd understand what is actually being asked. :pity:

He asked if defensive players should get in to the hall of fame. Shance Battier while not being as good of a scorer as Ron Artest is a superior defender he pretty much is the Ben Wallace of Wing defenders even if he doesn't get the accolades and ESPN coverage.

Lakersfan2483
01-08-2012, 03:58 AM
Definitely should get you in the Hall of Fame. See Dennis Rodman. Guys like Dikembe Mutombo belong in the Hall of fame.

Swashcuff
01-08-2012, 09:50 AM
He asked if defensive players should get in to the hall of fame. Shance Battier while not being as good of a scorer as Ron Artest is a superior defender he pretty much is the Ben Wallace of Wing defenders even if he doesn't get the accolades and ESPN coverage.

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