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View Full Version : Kobe On Pace To Set Another Record: Most Missed Field Goals In NBA History



MetroMan
01-02-2012, 03:38 PM
http://network.yardbarker.com/nba/article_external/kobe_bryant_on_pace_to_set_record_most_missed_fiel d_goals/4002331

In the next couple of years Kobe Bryant is going to pass another legendary Celtic in the record book. But not in a good way.

Kobe Bryant is on pace to break the record for most missed shots in a career, according to some fun research by John Hollinger at ESPN (a post behind the siteís pay wall).

But the more important one thatís likely to fall is John Havlicekís record for missed field goals, which Kobe Bryant should break at some point early in the 2013-14 season. My method gives him a 97 percent chance of setting the mark, which essentially means that barring an injury Kobe will hold the record. His current rate is 866 misses a season and heís only 2,204 short of the record.

Wade>You
01-02-2012, 03:40 PM
I had a thread like this in the stats forum, I called this like almost 2 years ago.

Either way, I think he'll be #1 when it's all said and done, all he needs is a few more seasons and to continue to shoot at his current pace.

Wade>You
01-02-2012, 03:41 PM
Here's my post
I started thinking how a player's missed FGAs might give us a better perspective of where that player ranks amongst the greatest scorers. While I don't claim for this to be a tell-all stat, I think people will be surprised by what I found.

Before anything: many people have different definitions of 'great scorers.' Many people believe putting up the most PPG, regardless of efficiency, defines a great scorer. Others, such as myself, believe that great scorers achieve a balance of PPG while maintaining a high FG%.

I took the consensus #1 scorer in the NBA and compared his missed FGAs to that of the two greatest scorers in the history of the game.

Kareem Abdul-Jabbar: 12,470 missed FGAs in 1,560 reg. season games (20 years)
Karl Malone: 12,682 missed FGAs in 1,476 reg. season games (19 years)
Kobe as of today: 10,759 missed FGAs in 1,021 reg. season games (14 years)

Kobe missed FGAs in 09-10: 853

853 x 2 (seasons) = 1,706

1,706 + 10,759 = 12,465 projected missed FGAs two years from now (more than KAJ, and by the third season, at this rate, more than Karl Malone).

LakersMaster24
01-02-2012, 03:47 PM
Woo-Hoo lets ignore the fact that the guy played since 1996, won 5 championships, is going to be a Top 5 in the All-Time Scoring List and lets just focus on the bad parts of his career.

Wade>You
01-02-2012, 03:51 PM
Woo-Hoo lets ignore the fact that the guy played since 1996, won 5 championships, is going to be a Top 5 in the All-Time Scoring List and lets just focus on the bad parts of his career.Too focused on your sig, don't know what you said...

Hawkeye15
01-02-2012, 03:52 PM
Its not Kobe hating to point this out btw.

The dude shoots. A lot. Oh well.

C-Style
01-02-2012, 03:55 PM
He's in good company.

RaiderKid318
01-02-2012, 03:57 PM
Who cares Brett had the most picks, but he was still a bad *** mother ****er you don't wanna **** with. Kobe is in the same boat.

C-Style
01-02-2012, 03:59 PM
Its not Kobe hating to point this out btw.

The dude shoots. A lot. Oh well.


Jordan took 23 shots per game through his career. Kobe only 19. But like you said oh well.

beliges
01-02-2012, 04:00 PM
Kobe had one of his worst games in his career yesterday. He simply couldnt make a shot to save his life. But with that said, the man has done enough as of today to put him in the top 7 players to ever play the game of basketball. Only a handful of players have been more dominant than him. One of the greatest winners in the history of the game. While he may very well break the record for most missed shots in his career, he will likely pass MJ as 3rd in most points in the history of the game, and will be the ONLY perimeter player to be that high on the all time list. Funny thing is, no other elite perimeter player lasted this long in the league. Not Magic, not Bird and not MJ. Thats a remarkable achievement. While people are so quick to point out his missed FGs, all he has left to prove at this point is go higher and higher in the all time rankings. Being around 7th right now, I think he has the ability to get up as high as 3rd or 4th depending on how the next few years go.

beliges
01-02-2012, 04:02 PM
Jordan shot 23 shots per game through his career. Kobe only 19. But like you said oh well.

MJ didnt have the longevity Kobe had otherwise he would have surely broken the all time missed FGs record. Because as you pointed out, if Kobe is one of the biggest ball hogs in the history of the game, MJ is the leader in that category. Nothing wrong with shooting so much if your just that damn good.

Wade>You
01-02-2012, 04:05 PM
Its not Kobe hating to point this out btw.

The dude shoots. A lot. Oh well.
Jordan shot 23 shots per game through his career. Kobe only 19. But like you said oh well.The topic is missed FGAs. Jordan made a good % of his shots, that's why he's not in the conversation. The other guys in the convo have played more years than Kobe and are all-time scoring leaders. For Kobe to be near them before playing that many years is what makes this such an intriguing topic.

5ass
01-02-2012, 04:08 PM
Jordan shot 23 shots per game through his career. Kobe only 19. But like you said oh well.

Jordan might have attempted 4 more shots than kobe, but he also made almost 2.5 more shots than kobe, and scored 5 more points than kobe. He's a career 50% fg, 5% higher than kobe, he also played 2 more minutes per game

C-Style
01-02-2012, 04:09 PM
The topic is missed FGAs. Jordan made a good % of his shots, that's why he's not in the conversation. The other guys in the convo have played more years than Kobe and are all-time scoring leaders. For Kobe to be near them before playing that many years is what makes this such an intriguing topic.

have you even seen the top 10 list of the players who have missed the most shots???

blastmasta26
01-02-2012, 04:09 PM
He's still justified to shoot a lot with his skill, but when he starts to decline more noticeably, a high volume of shots won't be a great thing for him. Still, most missed FGs has to be taken in context. Just how bad it is depends on TS% and EFG% in comparison to the other greats on the list.

beliges
01-02-2012, 04:14 PM
The topic is missed FGAs. Jordan made a good % of his shots, that's why he's not in the conversation. The other guys in the convo have played more years than Kobe and are all-time scoring leaders. For Kobe to be near them before playing that many years is what makes this such an intriguing topic.

Yea but regardless of missed FGs, Kobe has dominated more (won more) than any of those guys outside of MJ and Kareem. Obviously whether he shoots too much or not is a moot point because at the end of the day, he wins championships with that playing style. And he wins more than anyone has ever won in modern day basketball than MJ and Kareem.

LakersMaster24
01-02-2012, 04:14 PM
Too focused on your sig, don't know what you said...

I dont blame you :D

C-Style
01-02-2012, 04:14 PM
Jordan might have attempted 4 more shots than kobe, but he also made almost 2.5 more shots than kobe, and scored 5 more points than kobe. He's a career 50% fg, 5% higher than kobe, he also played 2 more minutes per game



That's because Kobe has taken 4,211 3 point shots. Where as Jordan only took 1,778. Id like to see MJ take that many 3pters and maintainging 50%.

Besides 4% is about 1 shot difference not 2.5!!!

Hawkeye15
01-02-2012, 04:16 PM
Jordan took 23 shots per game through his career. Kobe only 19. But like you said oh well.

here is what I would ask to anyone who tries to use this as a negative.

"Would you have preferred someone else was taking the shots Kobe took?"

Its not like he is some inefficient chucker who doesn't know when to stop haha.

Hawkeye15
01-02-2012, 04:16 PM
Yea but regardless of missed FGs, Kobe has dominated more (won more) than any of those guys outside of MJ and Kareem. Obviously whether he shoots too much or not is a moot point because at the end of the day, he wins championships with that playing style. And he wins more than anyone has ever won in modern day basketball than MJ and Kareem.

teams win championships.

God I hate the rings argument.

beliges
01-02-2012, 04:21 PM
teams win championships.

God I hate the rings argument.

Teams with great players win championships. If your point had validity, then the top 10 players EVER would not be the ones with the most championships. This isnt football or baseball where teams truly win championships. In the NBA, its the teams with MJ, Magic, Bird, Kareem, Kobe, Shaq, Duncan, Hakeem that have won the championships. There are plenty of great teams in the league every single year. But its usually the dominant players that pull out championships for their teams. You might not like that argument because it makes certain players you dislike look great, but thats just how it is. The best of the best players have all won multiple championships. Thats what great players do. They win titles. Take a look at who has won the championship since the 80s. Bird, Magic, MJ, Hakeem, Duncan, Kobe, Shaq. Thats no coincidence.

netsgiantsyanks
01-02-2012, 04:21 PM
Woo-Hoo lets ignore the fact that the guy played since 1996, won 5 championships, is going to be a Top 5 in the All-Time Scoring List and lets just focus on the bad parts of his career.

i don't think he was trying to single it out. :shrug: it's just a fun fact. looks like someone is having their time of the month.

LakersMaster24
01-02-2012, 04:22 PM
teams win championships.

God I hate the rings argument.

First I wanna say I am against the rings argument too. Next, I agree that teams win rings, but there is a handful of players that you can put in instead of Kobe, and have them take the same amount of shots and still be successful. The dude is a All-Time great, Top 10 player of All-Time, and it doesnt really matter what he does to get there as long as he is up there with the legends.

LakersMaster24
01-02-2012, 04:23 PM
i don't think he was trying to single it out. :shrug: it's just a fun fact. looks like someone is having their time of the month.

This dude opened the same thread in the Lakers forum as well. He is one of those fans that jump on and off the bandwagon of a player depending on whether he has a good game or not.

C-Style
01-02-2012, 04:25 PM
teams win championships.

God I hate the rings argument.

Teams dont win chamionships without players like Kobe

blastmasta26
01-02-2012, 04:26 PM
That's because Kobe has taken 4,211 3 point shots. Where as Jordan only took 1,778. Id like to see MJ take that many 3pters and maintainging 50%.

Besides 4% is about 1 shot difference not 2.5!!!

True Shooting% and Effective Field Goal% account for things like that and free throw disparities as well, so if you look at Jordan's whole career (15 years) and Kobe's first 15 years (currently in his 16th), you see Jordan still has the advantage.

Jordan - .569 TS%, .509 EFG%
Kobe - .556 TS%, .488 EFG%

Maybe if Jordan took more 3s his efficiency would go down, but playing to one's strengths is the key to being efficient in the first place.

Hawkeye15
01-02-2012, 04:26 PM
First I wanna say I am against the rings argument too. Next, I agree that teams win rings, but there is a handful of players that you can put in instead of Kobe, and have them take the same amount of shots and still be successful. The dude is a All-Time great, Top 10 player of All-Time, and it doesnt really matter what he does to get there as long as he is up there with the legends.

never said he wasn't. I just hate it when people resort to his 5 rings (without mentioning his amazing level of roster, coaching, and front office support) when defending him.

Hawkeye15
01-02-2012, 04:27 PM
That's because Kobe has taken 4,211 3 point shots. Where as Jordan only took 1,778. Id like to see MJ take that many 3pters and maintainging 50%.

Besides 4% is about 1 shot difference not 2.5!!!

understanding when you aren't good at something, and than not doing that, is a good thing...

blastmasta26
01-02-2012, 04:28 PM
Teams with great players win championships. If your point had validity, then the top 10 players EVER would not be the ones with the most championships. This isnt football or baseball where teams truly win championships. In the NBA, its the teams with MJ, Magic, Bird, Kareem, Kobe, Shaq, Duncan, Hakeem that have won the championships. There are plenty of great teams in the league every single year. But its usually the dominant players that pull out championships for their teams. You might not like that argument because it makes certain players you dislike look great, but thats just how it is. The best of the best players have all won multiple championships. Thats what great players do. They win titles. Take a look at who has won the championship since the 80s. Bird, Magic, MJ, Hakeem, Duncan, Kobe, Shaq. Thats no coincidence.
The point is that all those players, however great, were surrounded by a lot of talent as well. Of course those greats pulled out titles, but some players you can't discredit for being ring-less when they have inferior supporting casts. And vice versa, you can't give some guys too much credit when they had amazing talent around them.

LakersMaster24
01-02-2012, 04:29 PM
The Blazers are a great TEAM, however they dont really have a shot at the ring because they lack a player like Kobe that can lead a team, be the go to scorer in the playoffs when you are in trouble etc.

Teams win rings, however there is always 1 or 2 players that have the most impact, and they are the true reason why that team succeeds.

Hawkeye15
01-02-2012, 04:29 PM
Teams with great players win championships. If your point had validity, then the top 10 players EVER would not be the ones with the most championships. This isnt football or baseball where teams truly win championships. In the NBA, its the teams with MJ, Magic, Bird, Kareem, Kobe, Shaq, Duncan, Hakeem that have won the championships. There are plenty of great teams in the league every single year. But its usually the dominant players that pull out championships for their teams. You might not like that argument because it makes certain players you dislike look great, but thats just how it is. The best of the best players have all won multiple championships. Thats what great players do. They win titles. Take a look at who has won the championship since the 80s. Bird, Magic, MJ, Hakeem, Duncan, Kobe, Shaq. Thats no coincidence.

no, rings is one piece of a long equation when ranking all time greats. Its no more important that stats, accolades, awards, and many other things.

There are a couple players waaaaaaaaaaay up the rankings that never won one. Hell, some of the greats that did got it later by piggybacking on a team when they were past their prime.

Teams win rings.

LakersMaster24
01-02-2012, 04:30 PM
never said he wasn't. I just hate it when people resort to his 5 rings (without mentioning his amazing level of roster, coaching, and front office support) when defending him.

I agree, yet the same can go to Jordan, Magic, Kareem etc. Its all part of being successful.

Hawkeye15
01-02-2012, 04:31 PM
By the way, its very common for fans of a team that has won rings to overvalue the importance of rings.

C-Style
01-02-2012, 04:33 PM
understanding when you aren't good at something, and than not doing that, is a good thing...

But Kobe is good at what he does(3 pointers)

Hawkeye15
01-02-2012, 04:37 PM
But Kobe is good at what he does(3 pointers)

I was under the impression that shooting 33.8% from the three point line was not good.

blastmasta26
01-02-2012, 04:39 PM
But Kobe is good at what he does(3 pointers)
If he really was good at it, the stats would reflect that. But they don't.

PhillyFaninLA
01-02-2012, 04:40 PM
You have to be great to be able to miss that much.

tredigs
01-02-2012, 04:42 PM
That's because Kobe has taken 4,211 3 point shots. Where as Jordan only took 1,778. Id like to see MJ take that many 3pters and maintainging 50%.

Besides 4% is about 1 shot difference not 2.5!!!

It's a good point, and Kobe's true-shooting% is right up there with MJ's career average (Jordan hit his hard in his Wizards years though).

Bottom line is that while Kobe isn't a chucker, he's a high volume scorer who has strengths that can also turn into weaknesses if he's not on; sometimes is just hell bent on taking over a game, and as often as this is impressive it's equally damaging if it turns out to be a game like last nights 6/28. Tho' that game was especially disgusting. I do think that the Lakers dominance and titles with Kobe have been AT LEAST 50% due to their dominant bigs/length as anything Kobe has given them, but there's no doubting that there's only a small handful of players in the league in any given year that could have given the Lakers his intangibles to help take them there.

oo warriors game's on i'm out


I was under the impression that shooting 33.8% from the three point line was not good.

valid point too. kobe and jordan both weren't great 3pt shooters, but Jordan cut that back from his game. Only years Jordan actually averaged over 3 attempts per game he was elite from 3. Go figure.

numba1CHANGsta
01-02-2012, 04:42 PM
This stat doesnt mean anything, he could be the all time leader in points and missed field goals but it wont hurt his legacy because he has won 5 championships. Look at Favre, he is the all time leader in TD's and INT's lol

GREATNESS ONE
01-02-2012, 04:42 PM
By the way, its very common for fans of a team that has won rings to overvalue the importance of rings.

:shrug: You would think it would be the other way around.


Anyways, Kobe has had a long career, I'm sure this isn't going to be the last record Kobe breaks by the time his career is up. Oh and just one thing to throw into the MJ Kobe discussion also is MJ got to the free throw line very often compared to Kobe. Though I think both men are dominant in their decades. Hopefully Kobe can take a different approach to the end of his career and become more of a facilitator and shooter second. Anyways, been really fun watching this guys career unfold:clap:

Hawkeye15
01-02-2012, 04:44 PM
:shrug: You would think it would be the other way around.


Anyways, Kobe has had a long career, I'm sure this isn't going to be the last record Kobe breaks by the time his career is up. Oh and just one thing to throw into the MJ Kobe discussion also is MJ got to the free throw line very often compared to Kobe. Though I think both men are dominant in their decades. Hopefully Kobe can take a different approach to the end of his career and become more of a facilitator and shooter second. Anyways, been really fun watching this guys career unfold:clap:

nah, not dogging on him, just hate when the rings come up out of nowhere. I try and evaluate a player, not what his team has done.

ManRam
01-02-2012, 04:46 PM
He's gonna break a lot of counting records because he's gonna end up playing more games than most of the greats did. This isn't really that big of a deal. I wonder if he's broken the record for most missed game-winners too...I wish people kept track of that. We know all the makes, but not the misses...

5ass
01-02-2012, 04:48 PM
This stat doesnt mean anything, he could be the all time leader in points and missed field goals but it wont hurt his legacy because he has won 5 championships. Look at Favre, he is the all time leader in TD's and INT's lol

in 3 pages of this thread this has been mentioned 400 times, and while writing this luke walton broke my window with a brick, screamed 5 championships and ran away.

tredigs
01-02-2012, 04:49 PM
He's gonna break a lot of counting records because he's gonna end up playing more games than most of the greats did. This isn't really that big of a deal. I wonder if he's broken the record for most missed game-winners too...I wish people kept track of that. We know all the makes, but not the misses...

Well 82games did for the past decade or so. And yeah Kobe has led the league in game winning missed shots by a wide margin.

5ass
01-02-2012, 04:53 PM
Well 82games did for the past decade or so. And yeah Kobe has led the league in game winning missed shots by a wide margin.

yet he is still considered one of the most clutch players in NBA history, is it fair to put him in the same convo as bird and jordan like most laker fans do?

GREATNESS ONE
01-02-2012, 05:09 PM
nah, not dogging on him, just hate when the rings come up out of nowhere. I try and evaluate a player, not what his team has done.

:clap: I'm with you, we all have our difference in opinion. We obviously all love basketball and follow it hard core. This season is proving to be quite entertaining so far, I'm just gonna sit back and enjoy the show:D

-Kobe24-TJ19-
01-02-2012, 05:21 PM
yikes

BALLER R
01-02-2012, 05:21 PM
Kobe missing a lot of game winners don't mean a thing because if you looks at the numbers he's attempted far more than anyone else on that list. Also that ring argument yeah thats true but also I think people use stats too much sometimes because stats don't tell the whole story.

Wade>You
01-02-2012, 05:24 PM
Kobe missing a lot of game winners don't mean a thing because if you looks at the numbers he's attempted far more than anyone else on that list. If LeBron misses a clutch shot, choker. If Kobe misses a clutch shot, you get this response.

Teeboy1487
01-02-2012, 05:28 PM
This is not a bad stat. Kobe has been around a long time and he shoots alot especially difficult shots. I'm honestly not surprised. Brett Favre has the most interceptions in NFL History but he is a legend in the NFL. However, Kobe needs to realize he is on the decline and he can't make difficult shots like he use to earlier in his career. I think his shot attempts need to lower now that he is older. He has been in the league 16 years. That's alot of mileage. It really pains me to see his decline.

goNYgoNYgo
01-02-2012, 05:40 PM
umm he really cares. that really doesn't mean squat, all that means is he's been THE dominant player of his team for MANY years. FG% would tell the whole story.

he's been in the league since 96, been to what every playoff? Deep in the playoffs multiple times, 5 rings, meaning he played alotta regular season and post season games. still shot 45% of his career.

it's not a coincidence that he became the 6th or 7th player with the most points. with points comes misses. simple as that.

netsgiantsyanks
01-02-2012, 05:58 PM
This dude opened the same thread in the Lakers forum as well. He is one of those fans that jump on and off the bandwagon of a player depending on whether he has a good game or not.

oh, ok. sorry for insulting your masculinity. :laugh2:

shep33
01-02-2012, 06:56 PM
I mean he still shoots a pretty decent percentage for his career, also he has had 0 help on the perimeter for his career. Really think about it, nobody has taken pressure off this guy on the perimeter, Derek Fisher is the best perimeter player he's ever had, and Shannon Brown is the best backup he's ever had in 16 years. This guy has been the playmaker and only perimeter scorer LA has had for over a decade.

That is quite alarming if you think about it.

billsftw
01-02-2012, 07:04 PM
Teams dont win chamionships without players like Kobe

wrong.
Pistons 05.

kobebabe
01-02-2012, 07:28 PM
If it has produced 5 championships, who cares!

lakers4sho
01-02-2012, 09:58 PM
That's because Kobe has taken 4,211 3 point shots. Where as Jordan only took 1,778. Id like to see MJ take that many 3pters and maintainging 50%.

Besides 4% is about 1 shot difference not 2.5!!!

MJ still leads Kobe in TS% and eFG%.

LakersMaster24
01-02-2012, 10:10 PM
oh, ok. sorry for insulting your masculinity. :laugh2:

I think my sig does the talking for me.

MetroMan
01-02-2012, 10:39 PM
I do not understand why such negativity is towards me. I have not even said anything negative about kobe. all i did was post a fact I seen on the net

nickdymez
01-02-2012, 10:40 PM
The topic is missed FGAs. Jordan made a good % of his shots, that's why he's not in the conversation. The other guys in the convo have played more years than Kobe and are all-time scoring leaders. For Kobe to be near them before playing that many years is what makes this such an intriguing topic.

Dont worry about it man, I hate Kobe too...

nickdymez
01-02-2012, 10:41 PM
MJ still leads Kobe in TS% and eFG%.

Who cares about a made up stat that no one takes seriously but PSD posters?

nickdymez
01-02-2012, 10:42 PM
If LeBron misses a clutch shot, choker. If Kobe misses a clutch shot, you get this response.

What? The truth? That Kobe's taken more game winners than Lebron? U mad at that? Wade takes the Heats last shot, as it should be.

lakers4sho
01-02-2012, 10:43 PM
Who cares about a made up stat that no one takes seriously but PSD posters?

Teams hire statisticians. Well the successful ones do.

Law25
01-02-2012, 11:29 PM
Lol crazy stat. Lay of the threes young fella. I hate the MJ effeciancy argument because one he's the greatest and two becuase he lived at the freethrow line. In an era where hand checking was allowed you couldnt touch him AT ALL!!! Which is reversed when you consider Kobe the last seven years or so players have been allowed to man handle Kobe without a call being made. Since 05 Phil has been complaining about the over agressivness that went against current rules and in return recieves fines. Propaganda? not saying all that. Just something to factor in when people discuss Kobe vs the G.O.A.T. or Kobe's fg%........ But still wow lay off the three Kobe lol

Sactown
01-02-2012, 11:35 PM
Lol crazy stat. Lay of the threes young fella. I hate the MJ effeciancy argument because one he's the greatest and two becuase he lived at the freethrow line. In an era where hand checking was allowed you couldnt touch him AT ALL!!! Which is reversed when you consider Kobe the last seven years or so players have been allowed to man handle Kobe without a call being made. Since 05 Phil has been complaining about the over agressivness that went against current rules and in return recieves fines. Propaganda? not saying all that. Just something to factor in when people discuss Kobe vs the G.O.A.T. or Kobe's fg%........ But still wow lay off the three Kobe lol

That's a joke right?
His FTA per game peaked in 05/06/07/08
They have dropped off slightly since but that's because he isn't nearly as aggressive as he used to be.. Kobe has always gone to the line consistently...
Also MJ only averaged .7 more FTA per game throughout their careers
and only .2 per 36

naps
01-02-2012, 11:49 PM
No wonder. Greatest ballhog in the history of the game. Never seen someone shooting that much at his efficiency rate.

naps
01-02-2012, 11:52 PM
That's a joke right?
His FTA per game peaked in 05/06/07/08
They have dropped off slightly since but that's because he isn't nearly as aggressive as he used to be.. Kobe has always gone to the line consistently...
Also MJ only averaged .7 more FTA per game throughout their careers
and only .2 per 36

Don't argue with Kobephiles. You point out some irrelevancy and they will comeback with another excuse, just like Kobe has been doing with his wife.

quade36
01-02-2012, 11:53 PM
You can't compare Kobe taking 3's vs Jordan. Kobe took more 3's because he always had a dominant inside man. Jordan never really had a dominant inside man as part of the triangle offense. (No Grant wasn't dominant) Kobe has a lot more freedom in shot selection because of that hence the comfort of taking more 3's. And yes he is probably a better 3 point shooter then Jordan even if the overall averages don't indicate that

Raps18-19 Champ
01-03-2012, 12:02 AM
If he has more games like that one against the Nuggets, he'll break it a lot sooner.

amos1er
01-03-2012, 12:05 AM
You can't compare Kobe taking 3's vs Jordan. Kobe took more 3's because he always had a dominant inside man. Jordan never really had a dominant inside man as part of the triangle offense. (No Grant wasn't dominant) Kobe has a lot more freedom in shot selection because of that hence the comfort of taking more 3's. And yes he is probably a better 3 point shooter then Jordan even if the overall averages don't indicate that

lol...Always had a dominant inside man..LMAO. Kobe hasn't played with Shaq since 04 smart guy.

I hope you are not referring to Gasol, because I would hardly refer to some one who couldn't lead a team to one playoff win in six years a dominant inside man.

Sactown
01-03-2012, 12:08 AM
You can't compare Kobe taking 3's vs Jordan. Kobe took more 3's because he always had a dominant inside man. Jordan never really had a dominant inside man as part of the triangle offense. (No Grant wasn't dominant) Kobe has a lot more freedom in shot selection because of that hence the comfort of taking more 3's. And yes he is probably a better 3 point shooter then Jordan even if the overall averages don't indicate that

So let me get this straight, when you have dominant big men, you're allowed to just chuck up threes at a poor%? :eyebrow: and I wouldn't doubt Kobe is a better outside shooter, but clearly Michael Jordan had a better shot selection.. and where is there any proof of Michael Jordan having less freedom than Kobe??
Having a dominant big man is not an excuse to shoot the ball poorly from beyond the arc if anything it's the opposite.. Michael Jordan didn't get the open shots a shaq or Pau would create..

Excuses excuses :pity: :pity:

bholly
01-03-2012, 12:34 AM
http://network.yardbarker.com/nba/article_external/kobe_bryant_on_pace_to_set_record_most_missed_fiel d_goals/4002331

In the next couple of years Kobe Bryant is going to pass another legendary Celtic in the record book. But not in a good way.

Kobe Bryant is on pace to break the record for most missed shots in a career, according to some fun research by John Hollinger at ESPN (a post behind the siteís pay wall).

But the more important one thatís likely to fall is John Havlicekís record for missed field goals, which Kobe Bryant should break at some point early in the 2013-14 season. My method gives him a 97 percent chance of setting the mark, which essentially means that barring an injury Kobe will hold the record. His current rate is 866 misses a season and heís only 2,204 short of the record.

Weird time to post this given the article is just about a year old. According to basketball-reference stats Kobe is 1683 missed shots short now.

Hawkeye15
01-03-2012, 12:36 AM
Who cares about a made up stat that no one takes seriously but PSD posters?

And scouts, coach's, front offices, and the other pesky people that run basketball.

C-Style
01-03-2012, 01:23 AM
So let me get this straight, when you have dominant big men, you're allowed to just chuck up threes at a poor%? :eyebrow: and I wouldn't doubt Kobe is a better outside shooter, but clearly Michael Jordan had a better shot selection.. and where is there any proof of Michael Jordan having less freedom than Kobe??
Having a dominant big man is not an excuse to shoot the ball poorly from beyond the arc if anything it's the opposite.. Michael Jordan didn't get the open shots a shaq or Pau would create..

Excuses excuses :pity: :pity:

This is gonna lead to another topic. This is what separates the 2. Jordan wanted to make all his shots, Kobe wants to be the most diverse offensive player of all-time( just IMO)

KB-Pau-DH2012
01-03-2012, 01:33 AM
And yet fans of the other 29 NBA teams would have loved to have this guy on their team for the last 16 years of their basketball-watching NBA experience.

Sactown
01-03-2012, 01:48 AM
This is gonna lead to another topic. This is what separates the 2. Jordan wanted to make all his shots, Kobe wants to be the most diverse offensive player of all-time( just IMO)

I respectfully ask this question, If Lebron James chucked up 3 more threes a game we would call his shot selection poor and torture him, but when Kobe does it, it's because he wants to be diverse?

LakersMaster24
01-03-2012, 01:49 AM
And yet fans of the other 29 NBA teams would have loved to have this guy on their team for the last 16 years of their basketball-watching NBA experience.

Boom. This. /thread.

JJ_JKidd
01-03-2012, 02:29 AM
Kobe sucks. Lebron is GOD.. Happy? :facepalm:

Raps18-19 Champ
01-03-2012, 02:37 AM
And yet fans of the other 29 NBA teams would have loved to have this guy on their team for the last 16 years of their basketball-watching NBA experience.

Who said they didn't?

beliges
01-03-2012, 03:16 AM
I never understood why people look for any reason to hate on greatness. The dude has 5 freaking championships. Outside of MJ and Bird, NO other franchise player has been able to dominate as much and win as much in the modern era of the NBA. Just that in and of itself is something to marvel at. Yet people just hate and hate. Not only is he probably the 2nd greatest perimeter scorer to ever play the game, he is one of the best defenders of his era, the best individual player of his generation (a generation that had Shaq and Ducan-2 top 10 guys of all time). He is one of the greatest winners. One of the great clutch players to ever play the game, one of the hardest working, toughest, and committed basketball players we have ever been able to witness. The dude has been in the league for 16 years and is still elite today. Something MJ didnt do, something Magic didnt do and something Bird didnt do. He is one of the 7-8 greatest players to ever play the game of basketball. This guy has 3 years left in this game. Just stop all the *****ing and whining and hating and just enjoy watching a type of player we will never see again. With the wave of all these new school players taking the helm, guys like Lebron, Carmelo, Dwight, etc...you will be very hard pressed to see such an oldschool mentality in a player today. You will probably never see dedication and mastery of the game like Kobe again. Stop trying to hate on every little thing and just enjoy the show. Hes not MJ hes Kobe. He might not be as good as MJ was, but there is not one other player I can think of that was as talented on both ends of the floor, as skilled on both ends of the floor and was able to win as much as he did.

KBfrom8to24
01-03-2012, 03:23 AM
True Shooting% and Effective Field Goal% account for things like that and free throw disparities as well, so if you look at Jordan's whole career (15 years) and Kobe's first 15 years (currently in his 16th), you see Jordan still has the advantage.

Jordan - .569 TS%, .509 EFG%
Kobe - .556 TS%, .488 EFG%

Maybe if Jordan took more 3s his efficiency would go down, but playing to one's strengths is the key to being efficient in the first place.

MJ vs smaller defenders
Tri-Offense w/out zone defense = better FG%

Kobe vs taller and legitimate lock-down defenders
Tri-Offense w/ zone defense
2 years w/ broken finger = Low FG%
Are they the same?

sunsfan88
01-03-2012, 03:52 AM
The point is that all those players, however great, were surrounded by a lot of talent as well. Of course those greats pulled out titles, but some players you can't discredit for being ring-less when they have inferior supporting casts. And vice versa, you can't give some guys too much credit when they had amazing talent around them.
Exactly! How many championships did Kobe win after Shaq left and before they got Gasol?

USMCLaker
01-03-2012, 03:52 AM
Without reading one single solitary posts on this thread I can guarentee that this thread is filled with baiting, insulting responses and cursing.

Moreover, how it got to six pages this way is totally on the mods.

Yes there is something for personal accountability however, sorry mods, just saying.

LakersIn5
01-03-2012, 03:56 AM
it doesnt matter how many shots kobe have missed, whats important is how many shots he made. even if kobe become the player with most misses in nba history he would still finish in the top 7 when he retires. and i bet had smush parker taken as many shots as kobe then he would have had the record.

LakersIn5
01-03-2012, 03:59 AM
Exactly! How many championships did Kobe win after Shaq left and before they got Gasol?

mj is the GOAT but here is your logic

how many championship did jordan win before pippen came and after he went to washington?

Cfrey
01-03-2012, 04:01 AM
Kobe is a ****ing ball hog.. Someone said on the first page that he'll be top 5 all time in scoring.. well when you're pretty good and shoot that much that's likely going to happen..

he still sucks dick tho

KBfrom8to24
01-03-2012, 04:04 AM
Kobe is a ****ing ball hog.. Someone said on the first page that he'll be top 5 all time in scoring.. well when you're pretty good and shoot that much that's likely going to happen..

he still sucks dick tho


Wrong! Kobe & MJ are both ball hog. It's just that you really hate Kobe...

beliges
01-03-2012, 02:28 PM
Exactly! How many championships did Kobe win after Shaq left and before they got Gasol?

The same amount MJ had before playing Pippen and after he left the Bulls. The same amount Magic won without Kareem. The same amount Bird won without McHale and Parish. Whats your point? The dude won 5 rings. If he wouldve won after Shaq and before Pau hed have 6 or 7 rings right now. The same amount or more than anyone that has ever won in during the modern era of the NBA. Good luck seeing another perimeter franchise player win 5 titles for their franchise during their career. There is a reason only TWO other players (MJ and Magic) have accomplished this during their careers.

rhymeratic
01-03-2012, 02:43 PM
SO WHAT if he holds this record. He always had a chucker's mentality but you know something... when you're hitting your shots at a 45% clip and winning games... by all means shoot away.

Let me guess, people would have rather had Devean George and Luke Walton getting more shots during that span.... rrrrrrrriiiiiight

Hawkeye15
01-03-2012, 03:19 PM
I love how pointing out a mere stat spurns bickering and baiting between Laker/Kobe fans, and those who are simply pointing out that the man shot a lot.

Who cares? I think Philly said it, "you have to be great to have that many misses". There is a truth to that.

Chronz
01-03-2012, 03:35 PM
Who cares about a made up stat that no one takes seriously but PSD posters?
LOL

You forgot the green font

JordansBulls
01-03-2012, 04:48 PM
By the way, its very common for fans of a team that has won rings to overvalue the importance of rings.

also you gotta remember that it depends on the organization you go to. Lakers have already been in half the NBA Finals so obviously going to them top players will win titles guaranteed. But if those same players that went to the Lakers actually went to franchises like the Nuggets or Pacers teams that never won anything they may still put those teams on the map, but they wouldn't win nearly as much with them. IMO Shaq winning 1 ring with the Magic would have held more weight than 3 rings with the Lakers. Which is why I value Hakeem's 2 rings more so than Shaq's since Hakeem went to an organization that never won anything prior to him arriving.

Hawkeye15
01-03-2012, 05:11 PM
also you gotta remember that it depends on the organization you go to. Lakers have already been in half the NBA Finals so obviously going to them top players will win titles guaranteed. But if those same players that went to the Lakers actually went to franchises like the Nuggets or Pacers teams that never won anything they may still put those teams on the map, but they wouldn't win nearly as much with them. IMO Shaq winning 1 ring with the Magic would have held more weight than 3 rings with the Lakers. Which is why I value Hakeem's 2 rings more so than Shaq's since Hakeem went to an organization that never won anything prior to him arriving.

Exactly right. Which is what makes Jordan's rings stronger than Kobe's for instance. Jordan went to a crappy team that had to build itself and build around him, not a ready made contender and the best run team in modern era.

Rings are just part of the equation. They don't tell us how great a player is by themselves. Not even close.

nickdymez
01-03-2012, 05:25 PM
Exactly right. Which is what makes Jordan's rings stronger than Kobe's for instance. Jordan went to a crappy team that had to build itself and build around him, not a ready made contender and the best run team in modern era.

Rings are just part of the equation. They don't tell us how great a player is by themselves. Not even close.

Dude, you just hate Kobe and the Lakers. Every post proves that from you..

Hawkeye15
01-03-2012, 05:38 PM
Dude, you just hate Kobe and the Lakers. Every post proves that from you..

I have stated it outright that I hate them. So? I still evaluate Kobe and any Laker rationally because I am a fan of the game.

nickdymez
01-03-2012, 05:40 PM
I have stated it outright that I hate them. So? I still evaluate Kobe and any Laker rationally because I am a fan of the game.

Glad you clarified that..

"We can be done now"

beliges
01-03-2012, 06:48 PM
Exactly right. Which is what makes Jordan's rings stronger than Kobe's for instance. Jordan went to a crappy team that had to build itself and build around him, not a ready made contender and the best run team in modern era.

Rings are just part of the equation. They don't tell us how great a player is by themselves. Not even close.

Hahaha. Cmon dude. So youre telling me Magic and Kareem are considered lesser players because they played for the Lakers? Are you saying that the Lakers have some magical mythical spiritual power that makes their players great and wins them championships? LOL. Magic and Kareem did not win championships because they were Lakers. The Lakers won championships because they had Magic and Kareem. The Celtics is a prime example. If this argument had any credibility, then the Celtics would not have waited a good 20 years before they won a title.

Furthermore, MJs teams were just as good as any of Kobe's teams. MJ had stacked teams and Kobe had stacked teams. Rings are a significant part of the equation. This is proven by the fact that since 1980, the players that have won championships are Bird, Magic, Kareem, Isiah, MJ, Hakeem, Duncan, Kobe and Shaq. The majority of these guys are considered top 10 players of all time. Furthermore, when you look at the top 10 players of all time, EACH AND EVERYONE of them has at least ONE championship. Its not a coincidence that greatest of the great players to ever play the game of basketball have won at least one title. Champinships are a tremendous part of the game. One player can take a good team and win a championship with them. Thats what seperates all star players from the greats. There are plenty of great teams in the league, but its no coincidence that the greats always win championships.

Hawkeye15
01-03-2012, 08:33 PM
Hahaha. Cmon dude. So youre telling me Magic and Kareem are considered lesser players because they played for the Lakers? Are you saying that the Lakers have some magical mythical spiritual power that makes their players great and wins them championships? LOL. Magic and Kareem did not win championships because they were Lakers. The Lakers won championships because they had Magic and Kareem. The Celtics is a prime example. If this argument had any credibility, then the Celtics would not have waited a good 20 years before they won a title.

Furthermore, MJs teams were just as good as any of Kobe's teams. MJ had stacked teams and Kobe had stacked teams. Rings are a significant part of the equation. This is proven by the fact that since 1980, the players that have won championships are Bird, Magic, Kareem, Isiah, MJ, Hakeem, Duncan, Kobe and Shaq. The majority of these guys are considered top 10 players of all time. Furthermore, when you look at the top 10 players of all time, EACH AND EVERYONE of them has at least ONE championship. Its not a coincidence that greatest of the great players to ever play the game of basketball have won at least one title. Champinships are a tremendous part of the game. One player can take a good team and win a championship with them. Thats what seperates all star players from the greats. There are plenty of great teams in the league, but its no coincidence that the greats always win championships.

Nope. I am telling that you using the rings argument is continually a failed one for players who waltz straight into ready made contenders especially.

Your top 10 look different than mine. And as I said, a few of the ones that do have rings piggybacked them late in their career when they were no longer the player they once were.

You use rings as a heavy portion of your equation to evaluate, I weigh it far less. Very simple.

beliges
01-03-2012, 09:08 PM
Nope. I am telling that you using the rings argument is continually a failed one for players who waltz straight into ready made contenders especially.

Your top 10 look different than mine. And as I said, a few of the ones that do have rings piggybacked them late in their career when they were no longer the player they once were.

You use rings as a heavy portion of your equation to evaluate, I weigh it far less. Very simple.

First of all though, when Kobe came onto the Lakers, they were more than a decade removed from winning a title. Even with Shaq, the Lakers werent making Finals until Kobe reached around 20 and started dominating the league as far as perimeter players are concerned.

Furthermore, while youre top 10 looks different than mine, theres no denying that MJ, Kareem, Magic, Kobe, Bird, Shaq, Duncan and Russell are top 10 players. I guess you can deny it but youd be wrong. But my point is that these guys are the best of the best and these guys are all MULTIPLE champs. They are champions above any other statistical accomplishment they have earned. If championships didnt matter, Wilt would be the greatest player to ever play because the numbers he put up are unmatched. But yes, I put a heavy degree of emphasis on winning. Because a player can have spectacular numbers but if he cannot translate those numbers into winning, they are meaningless. Basketball is not a sport like football or baseball where a team truly has to win a championship collectively. Where, no matter how dominant an individual player is, he is still completely reliant on his teammates to step up. In Basketball, an individual player can take a good team and lead them to a victory against a better team. In basketball, a great player can dominate the game unlike any other sport. Its no coincidence MJ and Kareem won 6 titles. Russell won 9 titles. Magic and Kobe won 5 titles. And Shaq and Duncan won 4 titles. And Bird won 3 titles. These guys are the best of the very best to ever play the game. And that is meaasured not by from their PPG, their PER or W/S, but rather their ability to dominate and win.

Hawkeye15
01-03-2012, 09:11 PM
If you really think my entire player evaluations come from PER and win shares, I don't know what to tell ya bud.

beliges
01-03-2012, 09:21 PM
If you really think my entire player evaluations come from PER and win shares, I don't know what to tell ya bud.

Thats not what I said. Not at all. I respect your opinion on these forums, which is a lot considering the type of people that actually post on these forums. And even though you have clear bias in your posts, which I am getting from the fact that you admitted to hating certain teams and players. But with that said, I highly disagree with you that championships are a very minimal way of judging players. Again, history proves my point and it invalidates yours. If the greatest of the greats have not all won titles and most of them won multiple titles, then you may have a point. But the fact remains, the best of the very best always find ways to win and they always have. Winning is the ultimate measure of greatness. More than any stat.

Hawkeye15
01-03-2012, 09:26 PM
Thats not what I said. Not at all. I respect your opinion on these forums, which is a lot considering the type of people that actually post on these forums. And even though you have clear bias in your posts, which I am getting from the fact that you admitted to hating certain teams and players. But with that said, I highly disagree with you that championships are a very minimal way of judging players. Again, history proves my point and it invalidates yours. If the greatest of the greats have not all won titles and most of them won multiple titles, then you may have a point. But the fact remains, the best of the very best always find ways to win and they always have. Winning is the ultimate measure of greatness. More than any stat.

Winning is the ultimate measure of a team's greatness.

Look, our equations are different, and I honestly appreciate you fully explaining your opinions, which you do a great job of here.

I HATE the Lakers. But I can still put that aside when evaluating them, or any player on the rosters. I have been around basketball too long to care about whether or not I dislike something.

Robert Horry, Danny Ainge, Luke Walton, all these guys win rings. But they don't matter. There is a long equation on judging a player. Rings is just one of the factors. It holds no extra weight for me.

Peace bro.

beliges
01-03-2012, 09:29 PM
Winning is the ultimate measure of a team's greatness.

Look, our equations are different, and I honestly appreciate you fully explaining your opinions, which you do a great job of here.

I HATE the Lakers. But I can still put that aside when evaluating them, or any player on the rosters. I have been around basketball too long to care about whether or not I dislike something.

Robert Horry, Danny Ainge, Luke Walton, all these guys win rings. But they don't matter. There is a long equation on judging a player. Rings is just one of the factors. It holds no extra weight for me.

Peace bro.

And leading your team to championships is the ultimate measure of an individual player's greatness. Ainge, Walton and Horry all have rings but they are all role players. Nothing more.

JJ_JKidd
01-03-2012, 10:29 PM
Exactly! How many championships did Kobe win after Shaq left and before they got Gasol?

Name a player who won multiple Chips with just scrubs at his disposal? :confused:

nickdymez
01-03-2012, 10:37 PM
Winning is the ultimate measure of a team's greatness.

Look, our equations are different, and I honestly appreciate you fully explaining your opinions, which you do a great job of here.

I HATE the Lakers. But I can still put that aside when evaluating them, or any player on the rosters. I have been around basketball too long to care about whether or not I dislike something.

Robert Horry, Danny Ainge, Luke Walton, all these guys win rings. But they don't matter. There is a long equation on judging a player. Rings is just one of the factors. It holds no extra weight for me.

Peace bro.

This guy ends his posts like this because he's better than us..

Hawkeye15
01-03-2012, 10:49 PM
This guy ends his posts like this because he's better than us..

read it how you like. Its me saying our thought process is much different. Nothing more, nothing less.

Chronz
01-03-2012, 11:28 PM
And leading your team to championships is the ultimate measure of an individual player's greatness. Ainge, Walton and Horry all have rings but they are all role players. Nothing more.

Why do you live by any rule.

Is Billups better than Nash because of his ring/Finals MVP? Hes not a role player.

How about Malone/Barkley, are they inferior to PF's that have "lead their teams to a ring?"

3RDASYSTEM
01-04-2012, 10:37 AM
So KB sat for 3 of basically first 4yrs and hes been playing at this level for 16yrs? nobody played on that level that long, its like the old song 'Forgot about Dre'. ..Ezail did it from 96-08 at highest level, he was the best individual player of his time/era(just no ring),when u combine the skill&athletic skill(he had'em both combined equally before he entered the league,who else could claim that?)

People tend to forget when KB got his full time starting position Ezail #3 was battling SHAQ/DUNCAN/KG for NBA League MVP honors yrly..i think people get 'individual' and 'team most decorated/accomplished' twisted up, KB squad went to 7 out of 10 Finals and he only got 2 MVP's out of 7x(1 was questioned also)...yea wat a hell of a individual 'clone' player...he just lasted longer and worked harder(cause he was more gifted or less than say a LEBRON/AI?)...u work harder because your at a disadvantage last time i checked n played,so best thing to do is out work'em...why ya think Ezail was so successful for so long? he worked hard and was xtremely physically gifted/skilled
Nobody was there when they workout so how can media dictate who has best/worst work ethic? its all based on favortism and all this working hard to be best is BS,KB works hard because he knew the J/3pt shot was his biggest strength seeing he wasnt athletically a freak of nature, so he really honed his MJ clone skills and developed a MJ post game at 25yrs old,not because of age/knowledge,but cause lack of elite athletic ability and jocking his idol

Wat i learned is thru the media they will big up and give props to those they like or are less athletic(gifted) and will tend to diss a VICK/SHAQ/IVERSON/LEBRON work ethic even though they might take 2k shots per day/passes and study hard while KB might take 4k,because he aint as gifted athletically like those and have to take advantage of his strength...LEBRON/AI could beat u the same on physical and skill...Ezail is/was more skilled than'em all, just imagine if ROSE wasnt working so hard on his 'jumper'/3pt to improve and had that flame J that Ezail had from day 1? cause he has the physical tools to match and is a few inches taller, imagine if LEBRON had Ezails pullup J/3PT? EZAIL was more so BONDS/SANDERS and KB is more EMMITT/JETER...one combo is better individually,the other combo has rings and game to show but not on those other level in my book as individual players..to each his own

MetroMan
01-05-2012, 12:31 AM
wait, kobe is going to get the record because of his years played? ha that is laughable. Kareem has been in the league till he was 42, by that logic he should be holding the record of most missed field goals.

beliges
01-05-2012, 04:34 AM
Why do you live by any rule.

Is Billups better than Nash because of his ring/Finals MVP? Hes not a role player.

How about Malone/Barkley, are they inferior to PF's that have "lead their teams to a ring?"

Billups has ONE title. Not enough to trump a guy like Nash, who is a 2 time MVP and possibly the best shooter in NBA history. And yes, Malone/Barkley are inferior to a Tim Duncan, who has 4 freaking titles. Sorry, but as great as Malone/Barkley were, they were never good enough to win. Just because you never win doesnt mean youre not an all time great. But its not a coincidence that the player they always lost to, MJ, is considered better than them. Go figure, the better player ended up winning while the lesser, inferior player did not get it done. Thats how it is. The best players win. I dont understand why its so hard for people to admit this. Sorry, if youre really that great, you win. You find a way to win. Thats how its always has been and thats how it always will be. If Malone was able to win a few titles, he would most likely be considered a top 10 player. But unfortunately for him, he was not good enough to win titles. Same goes for Barkley in his Philli and PHO days.

nickdymez
01-05-2012, 04:58 AM
Billups has ONE title. Not enough to trump a guy like Nash, who is a 2 time MVP and possibly the best shooter in NBA history. And yes, Malone/Barkley are inferior to a Tim Duncan, who has 4 freaking titles. Sorry, but as great as Malone/Barkley were, they were never good enough to win. Just because you never win doesnt mean youre not an all time great. But its not a coincidence that the player they always lost to, MJ, is considered better than them. Go figure, the better player ended up winning while the lesser, inferior player did not get it done. Thats how it is. The best players win. I dont understand why its so hard for people to admit this. Sorry, if youre really that great, you win. You find a way to win. Thats how its always has been and thats how it always will be. If Malone was able to win a few titles, he would most likely be considered a top 10 player. But unfortunately for him, he was not good enough to win titles. Same goes for Barkley in his Philli and PHO days.

Exactly. And the team thing doesn't apply either. The Jazz had a nice team when they went up against the Bulls. actually better than the Bulls top to bottom. Jordan didn't care though.. Both had great coaches ( I actually think Sloan is a better COACH than phil) Thats why i love Basketball. Usually in the finals its about one player stepping up and proving his greatness and his team rallying around that.

iggypop123
01-05-2012, 05:01 AM
in before the lock

Chronz
01-05-2012, 05:03 AM
Billups has ONE title Not enough to trump a guy like Nash, who is a 2 time MVP and possibly the best shooter in NBA history.
What makes this so? Tony Parker has 3 and a Finals MVP. What about those other examples I gave?


And yes, Malone/Barkley are inferior to a Tim Duncan, who has 4 freaking titles. Sorry, but as great as Malone/Barkley were, they were never good enough to win.
LOL so what about Elvin Hayes, Dirk, do their titles vault them past these players? If you say yes your essentially saying Karl and Chuck not beating MJ is the worst thing a player can do. Even though MJ is the GOAT and had the best teams.


Just because you never win doesnt mean youre not an all time great. But its not a coincidence that the player they always lost to, MJ, is considered better than them. Go figure, the better player ended up winning while the lesser, inferior player did not get it done. Thats how it is. The best players win. I dont understand why its so hard for people to admit this.
Everyone admits MJ is better than those guys, what your not getting is that we are saying you cant point to rings as a barometer of " individual winning" ability. The competition, support, and individual level of play are different year to year, era to era. Elvin Hayes has a ring, is he better than Malone/Chuck?


Sorry, if youre really that great, you win. You find a way to win. Thats how its always has been and thats how it always will be. If Malone was able to win a few titles, he would most likely be considered a top 10 player. But unfortunately for him, he was not good enough to win titles. Same goes for Barkley in his Philli and PHO days.

So your on record, Elvin Hayes and Dirk > Chuck/Malone?

Chronz
01-05-2012, 05:07 AM
Exactly. And the team thing doesn't apply either. The Jazz had a nice team when they went up against the Bulls. actually better than the Bulls top to bottom. Jordan didn't care though.. Both had great coaches ( I actually think Sloan is a better COACH than phil) Thats why i love Basketball. Usually in the finals its about one player stepping up and proving his greatness and his team rallying around that.
Not shocked by anything you say anymore

Lakeshow24KB
01-05-2012, 11:21 AM
News flash!! Kobe to set another record for most girls banged while married.

nickdymez
01-05-2012, 12:44 PM
Not shocked by anything you say anymore

lol.. Your like Hitler. No one elses opinions matter but yours. I think what you say is dumb as **** too, but its your opinion...

Sactown
01-05-2012, 01:07 PM
News flash!! Kobe to set another record for most girls banged while married.

Tiger woods might be the record holder for that

smiddy012
01-05-2012, 02:22 PM
As much as I like to point out the obvious in that MJ > Kobe (when its not obvious to everyone)...

Its not exactly fair to compare the two in this regard, MJ spent 3 years at NC to hone his game against worse competetion than Kobe in his youth (albeit college basketball was much better back then). And yes MJ is/was the better shooter obviously.

beliges
01-05-2012, 02:33 PM
What makes this so? Tony Parker has 3 and a Finals MVP. What about those other examples I gave?


LOL so what about Elvin Hayes, Dirk, do their titles vault them past these players? If you say yes your essentially saying Karl and Chuck not beating MJ is the worst thing a player can do. Even though MJ is the GOAT and had the best teams.


Everyone admits MJ is better than those guys, what your not getting is that we are saying you cant point to rings as a barometer of " individual winning" ability. The competition, support, and individual level of play are different year to year, era to era. Elvin Hayes has a ring, is he better than Malone/Chuck?


So your on record, Elvin Hayes and Dirk > Chuck/Malone?

Billups is a very good player but he was on a team where there was no one or two players that led them. That was a team with about 4 or 5 players that were very good and led the team collectively. Nash on the other hand was the clear leader on his own squad. One title from a guy like Billups does not put him above a guy like Nash. Furthermore, let me just make this point to you. If MJ's career went as is, and he put up exactly the same numbers that he did, but Malone won 6 titles and MJ won none, Malone would be considered the better player. The reason MJ is considered the GOAT is not because of all his numbers, but rather because of his domination in winning. MJ with one or two rings is nowhere near considered the GOAT.

And if Dirk manages to win another title on that team then I would not hesitate to put him above Barkley and Malone on the all time list.

Lastly, Tony Parker is not a franchise player. He is a very good PG, but he is not on that level of a guy like MJ, or Magic, or even Dirk or Wade. He is an all-star caliber player. But not a franchise player. Hes like a Billups. A very important piece to a championship squad, but obviously not great enough to be considered an all time great.

Nick O
01-05-2012, 02:36 PM
Cy young has the most losses in baseball history... which record do you remember though? ;)

beliges
01-05-2012, 02:40 PM
Missed FGs become irrelevant when you proved to be the greatest winner playing your style of play in your generation and era.

Hawkeye15
01-05-2012, 03:28 PM
It will never stop cracking me up that so many Lakers fans can not decipher the difference between a player and a team winning a championship.

Kobe has had more help over the past 15 seasons than any star player I can ever think of in that length of time, outside of possibly Bird and Magic, who didn't have it nearly as long btw.

nickdymez
01-05-2012, 03:33 PM
It will never stop cracking me up that so many Lakers fans can not decipher the difference between a player and a team winning a championship.

Kobe has had more help over the past 15 seasons than any star player I can ever think of in that length of time, outside of possibly Bird and Magic, who didn't have it nearly as long btw.

Again, you hate Kobe so no one takes you serious. Duncan had good teams, Jordan had good teams, Malone had good teams. No player goes out and plays 1 on 5 to win a Championship obviously. But the truly great ones do what they have to do to put their team over the top. How on earth can you not understand that? You think Kobe was just an easily interchangeable piece to the Championship puzzle? No. Robert Horry was, rick fox was, Shannon Brown was, Trevor Ariza was, Jordan Farmer was, etc.. Kobe, Shaq, Duncan, Jordan, Wade, were not

Chacarron
01-05-2012, 03:35 PM
It will never stop cracking me up that so many Lakers fans can not decipher the difference between a player and a team winning a championship.

Kobe has had more help over the past 15 seasons than any star player I can ever think of in that length of time, outside of possibly Bird and Magic, who didn't have it nearly as long btw.

I get what you are saying and I agree.

Shark
01-05-2012, 03:52 PM
Why do people compare PF to SG? Obviously Karle Malone will miss a lot less when most of his baskets come from within a few feet of the basket, while Kobe's come from everywhere. At the end of the day, who cares how many you miss, its the ones you made that go a long way.