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View Full Version : Is Dwight Howard Overrated?



JasonJohnHorn
12-29-2011, 04:03 PM
I call them as I see them. There are two things that are great about Dwight Howard. One: He is as good as any rebounder in the league. Two: He is a dominant interior defender.


But what else is there? He has no range. He can't pass out of the double team (he's still posting more turnovers than assists). His FT% is horrible, and he has no post moves other than the 'drop-and-spear-my-should' $#!T that he does, which is CLEARLY an offensive foul (though it rarely gets called). He does create his own offense via offensive rebounds, but he essentially gets the ball when defences break down and he dunks, or his picks up a board on the offensive glass and dunks. I mean, he's worth what they are paying him, but at the same time his limited offensive skills, and inability to pass do make him hard to build around (not that Orlando has done a very good job of that so far).

Thoughts?

Chi StateOfMind
12-29-2011, 04:07 PM
Hell no. The one thing I will say is there is no other dominant centers that can dethrone him. He's in a league of his own until another dominant center comes along.

ChiSox219
12-29-2011, 04:10 PM
I think he's one of the most underrated players in the league even though he's considered a superstar. His defensive impact is ridiculous, look at where the Magic finished defensively last year and then ask yourself who on that team is an average or better defender.

Offensively people say all he does is dunk or rely on his athleticism, like it's a bad thing or as if he has no skill around the basket. He's the most dangerous player by far in the pick n roll and that's while playing with Jameer, Duhon, and Arenas. Why should Dwight take jump shots when no one can stop him inside the paint?

GoPacers33
12-29-2011, 04:11 PM
No way

Hawkeye15
12-29-2011, 04:13 PM
He is underrated.

310Casper
12-29-2011, 04:15 PM
He's this generations Shaq.

He's rated just right, the most world's most dominant center of this decade.
Plus he's always healthy, a huge plus with any elite center...

oh, did I mention he was just 25 years old a month ago?

blastmasta26
12-29-2011, 04:19 PM
He is definitely not overrated. Third best player in the league at worst, and an athletic beast of a center in an era where talented bigs are scarce. His offensive repertoire isn't that advanced but that doesn't really matter due to the lack of dominant centers. And it's not that hard to build around him if he got to the Finals with Rafer Alston, Courtney Lee, Hedo Turkoglu, and Rashard Lewis as his supporting cast. You just need to space the floor with perimeter shooting and provide him with a playmaker.

waveycrockett
12-29-2011, 04:23 PM
He is underrated. For a big man to do what he does without an elite PG is amazing.

gaughan333
12-29-2011, 04:23 PM
No. This question and thread are both stupid

utl768
12-29-2011, 04:25 PM
no way

he is easily the best center in the league

Raph12
12-29-2011, 04:27 PM
He's easily underrated, he created most of his shots on his own, only 53% of his FGs last season were ASTd and only 3% of his FGA were tips, so I don't know where you're getting this "he can't create his own shot" thing from. His impact on the court on both ends may be immeasurable, but it is evident, his presence can be felt by each and every player on the court. As for range, he has that 10-15 foot banker, which he only uses when he's playing bigger centers or when his defender just give him 3+feet of space. Why would you move further out, when you're so dominant in the paint?

Dwight is underrated, easily the #2 guy in the league, he had a bad game in OKC but I expect him to pick it up and return to form.

--23--
12-29-2011, 04:27 PM
Howard is not overrated, but i do think he's not as dominate as he should be offensively. I'm still waiting for him to improve his post game more.

5ass
12-29-2011, 04:30 PM
No, very efficient offensively, best defender in the nba, best rebounder, by far best center, and never injured.

Sadds The Gr8
12-29-2011, 04:31 PM
When you look at how pathetic the Center position is now, he isnt.

sep11ie
12-29-2011, 04:32 PM
He is AND he isnt.

He is because his skill set does not match his athletisism.

He isn't because he's regurded as the top center(which he is) in a watered down league, not all time.

ManRam
12-29-2011, 04:33 PM
His offensive game grew immensely last year. I had actually been really critical of him in the past (dating back to the days where I'd argue Yao was better)...but there is little for me to criticize about his game any more. Last year he took the next step.

No player meant more to their team last year. He is more dominant defensively than any one player is offensively, and offensively, he's now elite.

So I guess it depends on how you rate him. But I think most rate him right...top 2-4 player in the NBA.

PacersForLife
12-29-2011, 04:34 PM
If Dwight developed a better post game and could hit the mid-range jumper on demand he could be literally unstoppable, maybe the best player in the league. He hasn't been able to do those things though.

Fly
12-29-2011, 04:34 PM
With how thin the center position is right now, and how dominant he is, I don't know how you could even justify him being overrated. He is by far the best center in the league, the best defender in the league, and he just turned 25. He is underrated.

pedro_dude0980
12-29-2011, 04:38 PM
I agree that he is overrated. Kendrick Perkins and Big Baby made him look bad in the playoffs. I think the Pacer's center, Roy Hibbert is going to give Dwight Howard some problems as well. If anything, I think Roy Hibbert will replace Dwight Howard as the most dominant center, my prediction.

CousinsEvansDUO
12-29-2011, 04:38 PM
I've been saying this for a very long time. Good thread. Howard is way overrated just because he can defend and is good at dunking doesn't make him the best player in the NBA. Regarding allaround skills, he is not the best bigman in the NBA.

Nick O
12-29-2011, 04:40 PM
no... Jokim Noah is overated though.....

Tmath
12-29-2011, 04:40 PM
I feel he almost seems like a distraction on the offensive end but that might just be Van Gundy's coaching. I'm actually surprised Van Gundy hasn't been fired yet.

RLundi
12-29-2011, 04:41 PM
I've been saying this for a very long time. Good thread. Howard is way overrated just because he can defend and is good at dunking doesn't make him the best player in the NBA. Regarding allaround skills, he is not the best bigman in the NBA.

... Were you the one arguing that DeMarcus Cousins is better than Dwight Howard?

RLundi
12-29-2011, 04:42 PM
If anything, I think Roy Hibbert will replace Dwight Howard as the most dominant center, my prediction.

Oh, my.

shep33
12-29-2011, 04:43 PM
No. Probably underrated if anything

SteBO
12-29-2011, 04:44 PM
He's far from overrated as far as I'm concerned.

SteBO
12-29-2011, 04:44 PM
... Were you the one arguing that DeMarcus Cousins is better than Dwight Howard?
Yes. This should clarify things a little. :laugh2:

ManRam
12-29-2011, 04:52 PM
I've been saying this for a very long time. Good thread. Howard is way overrated just because he can defend and is good at dunking doesn't make him the best player in the NBA. Regarding allaround skills, he is not the best bigman in the NBA.

What big in the NBA has better all-around skills?

MTar786
12-29-2011, 04:53 PM
i think his offense is highly over rated. and he should be much better on the offensive end. but he is still a superstar bcause he is such a defensive presence that he's a big game changer. he is nothing compared to a prime shaq though

John Walls Era
12-29-2011, 04:57 PM
:laugh: Roy Hibbert is going to dethrone Dwight as the best C in the league. The same guy who has bad hands and also a limited post game.

onlythisfar41
12-29-2011, 04:58 PM
What everyone else said, hes underrated if anything. He dominantes the game from the position he plays and his value to his team is unbelievable. Also hes very young at 25 and its just entering the prime of his career.

LakersMaster24
12-29-2011, 05:05 PM
I think you guys are misunderstood the idea the guy is trying to pass through. There is no question that Howard is the best center in the league, however you must remember that this is the weakest era of centers in a while. If Howard played in the 90's he wouldnt even be a Top 5 center as people like Hakeem, Shaq, Ewing, Robinson, Zo etc would easily be better than him. Howard can easily be the best player in this league, and he should/can dominate the league. He needs a better offensive game, and gain more overall skill that does not require freakish athleticism.

smith&wesson
12-29-2011, 05:07 PM
I call them as I see them. There are two things that are great about Dwight Howard. One: He is as good as any rebounder in the league. Two: He is a dominant interior defender.


But what else is there? He has no range. He can't pass out of the double team (he's still posting more turnovers than assists). His FT% is horrible, and he has no post moves other than the 'drop-and-spear-my-should' $#!T that he does, which is CLEARLY an offensive foul (though it rarely gets called). He does create his own offense via offensive rebounds, but he essentially gets the ball when defences break down and he dunks, or his picks up a board on the offensive glass and dunks. I mean, he's worth what they are paying him, but at the same time his limited offensive skills, and inability to pass do make him hard to build around (not that Orlando has done a very good job of that so far).

Thoughts?

ALL of howards game is dependent on his ahtletic ability. if he gets one bad knee injury he is done. when he is older and slows down he wont be nearly as as good.

BUT right now he is the best C in the league and his D is dominant! so no he is not over rated all because players like him are scarse in the nba right now.

smith&wesson
12-29-2011, 05:09 PM
I think you guys are misunderstood the idea the guy is trying to pass through. There is no question that Howard is the best center in the league, however you must remember that this is the weakest era of centers in a while. If Howard played in the 90's he wouldnt even be a Top 5 center as people like Hakeem, Shaq, Ewing, Robinson, Zo etc would easily be better than him. Howard can easily be the best player in this league, and he should/can dominate the league. He needs a better offensive game, and gain more overall skill that does not require freakish athleticism.

I agree.

--23--
12-29-2011, 05:45 PM
I think you guys are misunderstood the idea the guy is trying to pass through. There is no question that Howard is the best center in the league, however you must remember that this is the weakest era of centers in a while. If Howard played in the 90's he wouldnt even be a Top 5 center as people like Hakeem, Shaq, Ewing, Robinson, Zo etc would easily be better than him. Howard can easily be the best player in this league, and he should/can dominate the league. He needs a better offensive game, and gain more overall skill that does not require freakish athleticism.

:clap: This is very true, With the lack of centers in the league Dwight should be waaaaaaaaay more dominate. Just imagine 25 year old Shaq playing in the NBA today, he would easily average 30+ points, 15 boards & 2+ Blocks. Those are the kind of numbers i expect to see from Howard regularly.

Sportfan
12-29-2011, 06:05 PM
He's underrated by the general public but people on PSD really overrate him and his value

ManRam
12-29-2011, 06:05 PM
I think you guys are misunderstood the idea the guy is trying to pass through. There is no question that Howard is the best center in the league, however you must remember that this is the weakest era of centers in a while. If Howard played in the 90's he wouldnt even be a Top 5 center as people like Hakeem, Shaq, Ewing, Robinson, Zo etc would easily be better than him. Howard can easily be the best player in this league, and he should/can dominate the league. He needs a better offensive game, and gain more overall skill that does not require freakish athleticism.

So it comes down to how you rate him, like many have said.

If you think he's as good as Shaq, you're overrating him...because he's not. If you think he's the second best player in the NBA, you may not be.

I don't think that just because he isn't as good Shaq, Hakeem, Ewing, Robinson, Zo etc. makes him overrated, nor does the fact that the competition is weaker...it just means he's not as great as those guys. The fact that he is SOOOO much better than his competition is quite impressive.

Side note, I don't think Zo is better than him.

WeBallin
12-29-2011, 06:06 PM
Yeah when you unhappy with your current situation....

Raph12
12-29-2011, 06:09 PM
^In the words of Kobe "you guys are trippin'", yes Dwight isn't Shaq, Dream or DRob; but he's still very dominant on the court. You guys forget that this is no longer a big man's league, the rules are suited to wing players and they dominate the ball.

Shaq used to foul the crap out of his defenders on offense, but in those days nothing would be called: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FJ3FXLyNFew

He would swing elbows, drop his shoulder and bulldoze over the defense early and often to get to the basket. Times have changed, those guys would flop the **** out of the game if they were playing Shaq and he'd be forced to go around vs through his defenders.

...

Dwight will never be Shaq, he has the potential to be a top 10 center of all time, Ewing and Zo are overrated; Dwight in 2010-11 already had a better season than either of those guys had throughout their careers (don't look at just "per game" stats). Yes they played in a tougher era, but I hardly believe we could blame Dwight for that.

Dwight is the best center in this league and would easily be top 5 in the 90s (behind Dream, Shaq and DRob), he's underrated, plain and simple.

Anon
12-29-2011, 06:28 PM
To appreciate how good Dwight is you have to understand how bad the rest of the Magic are. He is the only defender on our team that is above average and he consistently keeps us in the top 5 defensively. He has no one on the team who can create offense on their own. No easy shots. No transition. If Dwight ever gets paired with a great guard that team will be dominant.

Hawkeye15
12-29-2011, 06:31 PM
No, very efficient offensively, best defender in the nba, best rebounder, by far best center, and never injured.

Kevin Love says hello...

Hawkeye15
12-29-2011, 06:34 PM
You guys understand that a player has no say in what his competition is, right? Trying to compare Dwight with Shaq, Kareem, The Dream, etc, is not how you rate him against his own competition, which is the only correct way to do it.

2nd best player in the NBA. Any team he goes to automatically becomes one of the top paint protection teams in the NBA. Very efficient scorer. All around maybe the best big in the game.

Lidz
12-29-2011, 06:44 PM
What big in the NBA has better all-around skills?

I would honestly say I think Andrew Bynum has better all-around skills. I think he's the most "complete" center in the league.

Teeboy1487
12-29-2011, 06:45 PM
He's actually the second best player in the league imo after Lebron. He's rated correctly.

rapjuicer06
12-29-2011, 06:46 PM
I think you guys are misunderstood the idea the guy is trying to pass through. There is no question that Howard is the best center in the league, however you must remember that this is the weakest era of centers in a while. If Howard played in the 90's he wouldnt even be a Top 5 center as people like Hakeem, Shaq, Ewing, Robinson, Zo etc would easily be better than him. Howard can easily be the best player in this league, and he should/can dominate the league. He needs a better offensive game, and gain more overall skill that does not require freakish athleticism.

Howard would be better than Mourning and Ewing. Way better than Ewing defensively, and better than Mourning offensively. Why is dunking to get points a bad thing? Didn't Shaq completely rump his way to get a foot away from the hoop and turn around and dunk it? I mean watch the video Raph just put up...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FJ3FXLyNFew

Shaq absolutely kills Mutombo. Kills him

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HjsFu882zks

Dwight taps Gasol (compared to Shaq) and is called for the charge. Shaq in his prime in the NBA today would foul out of every game and wouldn't be one of the most dominating Centers to play the game. He wouldn't be able to bang down low and wouldn't be able to score.


^In the words of Kobe "you guys are trippin'", yes Dwight isn't Shaq, Dream or DRob; but he's still very dominant on the court. You guys forget that this is no longer a big man's league, the rules are suited to wing players and they dominate the ball.

Shaq used to foul the crap out of his defenders on offense, but in those days nothing would be called: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FJ3FXLyNFew

He would swing elbows, drop his shoulder and bulldoze over the defense early and often to get to the basket. Times have changed, those guys would flop the **** out of the game if they were playing Shaq and he'd be forced to go around vs through his defenders.

...

Dwight will never be Shaq, he has the potential to be a top 10 center of all time, Ewing and Zo are overrated; Dwight in 2010-11 already had a better season than either of those guys had throughout their careers (don't look at just "per game" stats). Yes they played in a tougher era, but I hardly believe we could blame Dwight for that.

Dwight is the best center in this league and would easily be top 5 in the 90s (behind Dream, Shaq and DRob), he's underrated, plain and simple.

Are you meaning to tell me the most PHYSICAL guy in the era of whimps would be physical in the most physical era, and would do well in it? :rolleyes:

Completely agree with you man...If Dwight could back his way to the hoop like Shaq, people would shut their mouths. The fact that he has to finesse his way to the hoop makes it a little harder. He gets hacked like crazy and doesn't get called a lot, but if he backs his opponent up its a charge...

Hawkeye15
12-29-2011, 06:48 PM
I would honestly say I think Andrew Bynum has better all-around skills. I think he's the most "complete" center in the league.

you have to be kidding. Bynum misses 20+ games a year, and doesn't have 1/10 of the athletic ability or explosiveness that Dwight does. You replace Bynum with Dwight over the past 5 years, and its a 5 peat.

They aren't even close dude.

http://www.basketball-reference.com/play-index/pcm_finder.cgi?request=1&sum=1&p1=howardw01&y1=2012&p2=bynuman01&y2=2011

I take the one with far better numbers, and the one that doesn't ever miss a game.

Lidz
12-29-2011, 06:56 PM
you have to be kidding. Bynum misses 20+ games a year, and doesn't have 1/10 of the athletic ability or explosiveness that Dwight does. You replace Bynum with Dwight over the past 5 years, and its a 5 peat.

They aren't even close dude.

http://www.basketball-reference.com/play-index/pcm_finder.cgi?request=1&sum=1&p1=howardw01&y1=2012&p2=bynuman01&y2=2011

I take the one with far better numbers, and the one that doesn't ever miss a game.

Sure Bynum misses games but i'm not basing my opinion off of me watching him sit on the bench. I'm basing my opinion off of me watching him play. Dwight is way stronger and explosive, but if he doesn't catch the ball in a certain spot, you don't have to worry about him offensively because you can give him that 8-10 foot jump shot all game and still win. Or you can give him that hook shot all game and still win. If he DOES so happen to catch it right under the basket where teams fear him the most, you can hack him and trust him to miss atleast one free throw. You can't do that with Andrew because he's very efficient at the line. Bynum has way better moves away from and under the basket. He might not be AS good defensively but he is still a great shot blocker and a great rebounder. But as far as being healthy and knowing your guy is going to be there 90% of the season, then sure, it's Dwight hands down. But as far as being the best all-around center, offensive game, defensive game and rebounding, I think Bynum is more complete because of his great post moves and free throw shooting and his great defense, compared to Dwight's sub-par offensive game, below average free throw shooting and his stellar defense.

Hawkeye15
12-29-2011, 07:01 PM
Sure Bynum misses games but i'm not basing my opinion off of me watching him sit on the bench. I'm basing my opinion off of me watching him play. Dwight is way stronger and explosive, but if he doesn't catch the ball in a certain spot, you don't have to worry about him offensively. Bynum has way better movies away from and under the basket. He might not be AS good defensively but he is still a great shot blocker and a great rebounder. But as far as being healthy and knowing your guy is going to be there 90% of the season, then sure, it's Dwight hands down.

No, Bynum does not have better moves. Not sure why you think, incorrectly I might add, that Dwight has to catch the ball in a certain area to succeed. Opposing teams aren't exactly caving in to stop Bynum, so he gets much easier looks than Dwight ever does. Dwight is also able to bury players in the post, getting easy dunks, where as Bynum does this at a much lesser rate. Bynum is not even close to Dwight as far as defensive effect. Take Gasol away from Bynum, leaving him the only real big around, and lets see him roam and protect every inch of the paint like Howard does, AND still be able to recover and grab a rebound. Dwight is the better rebounder, defender, more versatile, the better athlete, and doesn't miss 20+ games a year.

Its not even close man. Dwight is so easily the best center in the NBA, its not even funny. Its the position with the biggest gap between #1-#2. Bynum has 0 all star appearances, and the last time we saw him, he was half naked walking off the floor after Seagaling Barea like the big baby he is.

Raph12
12-29-2011, 07:03 PM
Sure Bynum misses games but i'm not basing my opinion off of me watching him sit on the bench. I'm basing my opinion off of me watching him play. Dwight is way stronger and explosive, but if he doesn't catch the ball in a certain spot, you don't have to worry about him offensively. Bynum has way better movies away from and under the basket. He might not be AS good defensively but he is still a great shot blocker and a great rebounder. But as far as being healthy and knowing your guy is going to be there 90% of the season, then sure, it's Dwight hands down.

Actually that's Bynum, seeming as how Bynum is assisted on 57% of his FGM and has an 8% tip rate; whereas Dwight is only assisted on 53% of his FGM and has a 3% tip rate. Dwight is the better post player, better iso player, better 1v1 defender, better defensive player and better rebounder. There is not one facet of Bynum's game that is better than Dwight's.

Bynum could potentially be a great center, but Bynum's best would likley be a bit worse than Dwight's 2010-11 season (not per game, but productivity and efficiency combined)... It really isn't that close.

Avenged
12-29-2011, 07:06 PM
You guys understand that a player has no say in what his competition is, right? Trying to compare Dwight with Shaq, Kareem, The Dream, etc, is not how you rate him against his own competition, which is the only correct way to do it.

2nd best player in the NBA. Any team he goes to automatically becomes one of the top paint protection teams in the NBA. Very efficient scorer. All around maybe the best big in the game.

Sounds about right to me. Very underrated offensively.

CarniifeX
12-29-2011, 07:08 PM
He's probably overrated in the sense of his skills, but not overrated in the sense of he's the best center in the league.

Lakeshow24KB
12-29-2011, 07:09 PM
Hell no. Plus he's working on his post moves with Olajuwon.

Wade>You
12-29-2011, 07:10 PM
I'd say Howard is overrated by people on PSD. Still the best Center, but the guy is on a Chuck Norris level.

--23--
12-29-2011, 07:13 PM
I would honestly say I think Andrew Bynum has better all-around skills. I think he's the most "complete" center in the league.

so you'll rather have Bynum over Howard? :eyebrow:

Hangtime
12-29-2011, 07:13 PM
I don't see how he is overrated, he plays in a fashion that totally meets my expectations defensively and offensively. Could he be better? Of course. But I still consider him the best at his position over anyone else currently in the league.

He is an impact player that changes any team instantly. I would take him in a heartbeat.

Dolfan305
12-29-2011, 07:13 PM
Over/under rated is such a stupid relative term. Howard, along with pretty much any player can be over/under rated pending on who you talk to

Hawkeye15
12-29-2011, 07:15 PM
Lidz, to put it easier. If the Magic called up the Lakers and offered Dwight straight up for Bynum, Buss would blow his wad all over the wall, faint, and when he came to, would start making 2011-12 Lakers Champions t-shirts. If the Lakers called up Otis Smith, and offered him Bynum for Dwight, even as incompetent as Smith is, he would probably pass away from not getting enough air during a laughing attack.

Lidz
12-29-2011, 07:17 PM
No, Bynum does not have better moves. Not sure why you think, incorrectly I might add, that Dwight has to catch the ball in a certain area to succeed. Opposing teams aren't exactly caving in to stop Bynum, so he gets much easier looks than Dwight ever does. Dwight is also able to bury players in the post, getting easy dunks, where as Bynum does this at a much lesser rate. Bynum is not even close to Dwight as far as defensive effect. Take Gasol away from Bynum, leaving him the only real big around, and lets see him roam and protect every inch of the paint like Howard does, AND still be able to recover and grab a rebound. Dwight is the better rebounder, defender, more versatile, the better athlete, and doesn't miss 20+ games a year.

Its not even close man. Dwight is so easily the best center in the NBA, its not even funny. Its the position with the biggest gap between #1-#2. Bynum has 0 all star appearances, and the last time we saw him, he was half naked walking off the floor after Seagaling Barea like the big baby he is.

There's no way you can prove that. Bynum does have another 7 footer playing beside him so his rebounds will be split because Gasol has just as long arms as he does, his scoring will be split because he's playing with Kobe and Gasol, and his blocks will be split because just like I said, Gasol is a great blocker too. You can't say what Bynum would and wouldn't be able to do without Gasol on his team because Gasol IS on his team. Watching Dwight play in the post and watching Bynum play in the post, one on one, I see that Bynum is better. Foul Dwight, you can trust he will atleast miss one free-throw. On the other hand, Bynum is a very efficient free-throw shooter.

Lidz
12-29-2011, 07:19 PM
Lidz, to put it easier. If the Magic called up the Lakers and offered Dwight straight up for Bynum, Buss would blow his wad all over the wall, faint, and when he came to, would start making 2011-12 Lakers Champions t-shirts. If the Lakers called up Otis Smith, and offered him Bynum for Dwight, even as incompetent as Smith is, he would probably pass away from not getting enough air during a laughing attack.

Most likely, because of your point of Bynum's injuries. I'll give you that. I said in my first post, Howard almost NEVER misses games, so teams know that he would be on the floor competing almost every night. With Bynum, you never know, one wrong fall or twist of the knee could re-aggravate an old injury.

Lidz
12-29-2011, 07:21 PM
so you'll rather have Bynum over Howard? :eyebrow:

I never said that. Aside from game skills, you still have to worry about Bynum's health. If I was a GM and had to choose, I would choose Howard because I don't know how long Bynum's knees would hold up in the long run.

Lidz
12-29-2011, 07:22 PM
But he's not over rated. The game hasn't seen a Center this powerful and effective since Shaq.

tp13baby
12-29-2011, 07:28 PM
I never said that. Aside from game skills, you still have to worry about Bynum's health. If I was a GM and had to choose, I would choose Howard because I don't know how long Bynum's knees would hold up in the long run.

I don't fear Bynum. As a nuggets fan i put Nene on him and feel good. Howard I am thinking holy **** we won't be able to stop him. Bynum is good but no way in hell even if Bynum played injury free the rest of his career i would never take Bynum over Howard. Ever.

Lidz
12-29-2011, 07:31 PM
I don't fear Bynum. As a nuggets fan i put Nene on him and feel good. Howard I am thinking holy **** we won't be able to stop him. Bynum is good but no way in hell even if Bynum played injury free the rest of his career i would never take Bynum over Howard. Ever.

True, you don't really fear Bynum when game planning because first of all, you're worried about Kobe, and second of all, you're worried about Gasol. It's understandable how Bynum can get lost in the game plan when planning for Kobe and Gasol, but rest assure when Kobe doesn't feel like scoring, and he makes up his mind that he's going to give Bynum the ball everytime down the floor and let him go to work on the opposing center, you, as a coach, will make some adjustments.

Hawkeye15
12-29-2011, 07:33 PM
There's no way you can prove that. Bynum does have another 7 footer playing beside him so his rebounds will be split because Gasol has just as long arms as he does, his scoring will be split because he's playing with Kobe and Gasol, and his blocks will be split because just like I said, Gasol is a great blocker too. You can't say what Bynum would and wouldn't be able to do without Gasol on his team because Gasol IS on his team. Watching Dwight play in the post and watching Bynum play in the post, one on one, I see that Bynum is better. Foul Dwight, you can trust he will atleast miss one free-throw. On the other hand, Bynum is a very efficient free-throw shooter.

There is no way you can prove anything you are saying about Dwight. But saying that Bynum would suffer defensively compared to his current level if you took away his twin tower isn't exactly reaching dude.

You and I see different things. I see Bynum not facing double teams and getting a lot of points off breakdowns where his man has to help and recover. I see Bynum getting nearly 10% of his buckets off tip ins. I don't see that with Dwight. I see Dwight battling through defenses designed to make life difficult for him, creating more of his offense, and there are statistics to prove my sight, and disprove yours.

The free throw shooting is honestly the only thing on the entire basketball floor Bynum does better.

Again, we KNOW Dwight immediately turns a team into a top 2 paint protection team, even with nothing next to him. We can assume that giving him another 7 footer that can stretch the floor would make his numbers ridiculous. We can also assume that taking away Gasol from Bynum will end up hurting his numbers, because he now becomes the primary focus of the other teams interior defense.

PhillyFaninLA
12-29-2011, 07:34 PM
No way is he overrated.

thephoenixson28
12-29-2011, 07:35 PM
Yes, trade him to the Suns.

Hawkeye15
12-29-2011, 07:35 PM
reminds me of the Yao-Dwight debate honestly. Dwight has been the best center for 6 years. He will probably be the best center for the next few as well. Bynum can't even make an all star game in a watered down NBA for centers. He misses 20+ games a year. His post moves are limited to 3 moves primarily, and he gets a ton of his points off breakdowns and tip in's. Beneficiary of great players around him. Please don't mistake me saying he is a chump, I would love to have him on the Wolves. But he can't carry Dwight's jock strap.

Lidz
12-29-2011, 07:38 PM
There is no way you can prove anything you are saying about Dwight. But saying that Bynum would suffer defensively compared to his current level if you took away his twin tower isn't exactly reaching dude.

You and I see different things. I see Bynum not facing double teams and getting a lot of points off breakdowns where his man has to help and recover. I see Bynum getting nearly 10% of his buckets off tip ins. I don't see that with Dwight. I see Dwight battling through defenses designed to make life difficult for him, creating more of his offense, and there are statistics to prove my sight, and disprove yours.

The free throw shooting is honestly the only thing on the entire basketball floor Bynum does better.

Again, we KNOW Dwight immediately turns a team into a top 2 paint protection team, even with nothing next to him. We can assume that giving him another 7 footer that can stretch the floor would make his numbers ridiculous. We can also assume that taking away Gasol from Bynum will end up hurting his numbers, because he now becomes the primary focus of the other teams interior defense.

You're right. It's no way I can prove what i'm saying either. You clearly have stats on your side (because of Bynum's injuries) and you clearly have Dwight carrying a team himself (which Bynum has never had to do because he has Kobe and Gasol). As a HEAT fan, I watch Dwight Howard a lot, whether it's us playing Orlando or me just hoping that they lose. I also watch the Lakers games a lot because Kobe Bryant plays the game of basketball the way the best artist in the world would paint on a canvas, so the only way I would get you to agree with me is if you thought how I thought. While watching them both play down in the paint, I see Bynum as a better all-around center. We're two different people with two different points. We're just going to have to agree to disagree on this one.

Jay
12-29-2011, 07:39 PM
The fact that he didn't win the MVP trophy last season shows that he's underrated.

thephoenixson28
12-29-2011, 07:40 PM
Dwight Howard does have flaws, but everyone in the NBA does.

Fnom11
12-29-2011, 07:41 PM
He's overrated in a sense that if it were any other era he would probably not be a top3 center. But because the league is so WEAK, emphasis on weak, at the 5, he seems dominant.

Wade>You
12-29-2011, 07:42 PM
But he's not over rated. The game hasn't seen a Center this powerful and effective since Shaq.Not saying much.

Hawkeye15
12-29-2011, 07:42 PM
You're right. It's no way I can prove what i'm saying either. You clearly have stats on your side (because of Bynum's injuries) and you clearly have Dwight carrying a team himself (which Bynum has never had to do because he has Kobe and Gasol). As a HEAT fan, I watch Dwight Howard a lot, whether it's us playing Orlando or me just hoping that they lose. I also watch the Lakers games a lot because Kobe Bryant plays the game of basketball the way the best artist in the world would paint on a canvas, so the only way I would get you to agree with me is if you thought how I thought. While watching them both play down in the paint, I see Bynum as a better all-around center. We're two different people with two different points. We're just going to have to agree to disagree on this one.

Sure man, and that reminds me of those who think Melo is a better scorer than LeBron, because he has a more "pure" skillset. All the evidence is right there, showing LeBron's scoring ability and efficiency take a dump on Melo. But because Melo can attack off the dribble, shoot, post up, and score in every way possible, regardless of whether or not he does it in a less efficient way, some that like to believe their eyes only will see him as a more skilled player. Sure LeBron uses brute force, and athletic ability, and doesn't have the pure basketball scoring skill of Melo. But his points come much more efficiently, and isn't that the point of scoring the ball?

I think that is a similar argument you and I are having.

VinceCarter
12-29-2011, 07:44 PM
Underrated. He should have some MVPs right now but I guess defense comes second to offense :sigh:
And it's not like he doesn't have offense, he does.

ThunderousDemon
12-29-2011, 07:45 PM
He'd be great with Mike Browns System.:D

Lidz
12-29-2011, 07:47 PM
Sure man, and that reminds me of those who think Melo is a better scorer than LeBron, because he has a more "pure" skillset. All the evidence is right there, showing LeBron's scoring ability and efficiency take a dump on Melo. But because Melo can attack off the dribble, shoot, post up, and score in every way possible, regardless of whether or not he does it in a less efficient way, some that like to believe their eyes only will see him as a more skilled player. Sure LeBron uses brute force, and athletic ability, and doesn't have the pure basketball scoring skill of Melo. But his points come much more efficiently, and isn't that the point of scoring the ball?

I think that is a similar argument you and I are having.

Good point.

Fnom11
12-29-2011, 07:48 PM
Underrated. He should have some MVPs right now but I guess defense comes second to offense :sigh:
And it's not like he doesn't have offense, he does.

A lot of players should have some MVPs. Wade, CP3, Dwight, Durant, Dirk.

Lidz
12-29-2011, 07:48 PM
Not saying much.

You're right. It's not. But we all know that the NBA jumps on every player that could be the "next ______".

Hawkeye15
12-29-2011, 07:51 PM
You're right. It's not. But we all know that the NBA jumps on every player that could be the "next ______".

One of the many things that always pisses me off lol.

Bravo95
12-29-2011, 07:51 PM
No.

ThunderousDemon
12-29-2011, 07:52 PM
Fisher:cry:
Kobe:cool:
Ebanks:)
McRoberts:shrug:
Howard:jumpy:

:speechless::hi5::dance::win:

MJ-BULLS
12-29-2011, 07:52 PM
Howard isn't overrated in any part. the impact on defense he has is incredible.

Lidz
12-29-2011, 07:53 PM
One of the many things that always pisses me off lol.

Not letting the players themselves write their own legacy and then when they don't live up to the standards that the media and the NBA has set for them, they become somewhat of failure in the media's eyes. You're right. It's irritating.

numba1CHANGsta
12-29-2011, 07:59 PM
He's no Shaq thats forsure, he wont average more than 25 points but he's a Hakeem type of center, where he is more defense than offense. I can see him winning at least two championships. He's always healthy too so thats a plus

Dankster
12-29-2011, 07:59 PM
He's not overrated- he's the best player in his position. Granted, the talent pool for centers is very diluted to put it nicely, and I wouldn't consider Howard even in the top 4/5 of Centers if he played back in the 90's, but in the context of him playing in the league currently and how poor the talent level of the center position is, he is without a doubt the best center in basketball.

I'm surprised though that the position hasn't evolved from the great Center players of the 80's and 90's, when the top centers were excellent players on both sides of the ball with a myriad of moves in the post (i.e. Hakeem, Patrick, etc.)

Hawkeye15
12-29-2011, 08:02 PM
He's no Shaq thats forsure, he wont average more than 25 points but he's a Hakeem type of center, where he is more defense than offense. I can see him winning at least two championships. He's always healthy too so thats a plus

he is far more Shaq than Hakeem. Dwight gets his in the paint by overpowering, and misses free throws. Both physical specimens.

Hakeem was so unique. He could score from anywhere, guard SG's off pick and rolls, came from 20 feet away to block a shot, dribbled like a guard, etc.

I don't know if there is anything similar to Hakeem right now.

Lidz
12-29-2011, 08:06 PM
he is far more Shaq than Hakeem. Dwight gets his in the paint by overpowering, and misses free throws. Both physical specimens.

Hakeem was so unique. He could score from anywhere, guard SG's off pick and rolls, came from 20 feet away to block a shot, dribbled like a guard, etc.

I don't know if there is anything similar to Hakeem right now.

I think the CLOSEST thing to Hakeem right now, not comparing the two but I would say Pau Gasol.

smith&wesson
12-29-2011, 08:07 PM
he is far more Shaq than Hakeem. Dwight gets his in the paint by overpowering, and misses free throws. Both physical specimens.

Hakeem was so unique. He could score from anywhere, guard SG's off pick and rolls, came from 20 feet away to block a shot, dribbled like a guard, etc.

I don't know if there is anything similar to Hakeem right now.

I dont know if there ever was anything like hakeem. his skill set at his size was unreal.

LOOTERX9
12-29-2011, 08:09 PM
Howard has no killer instinct. He is the center version of Lebron. Has the ability to dominate and finish off opponent but lacks the killer's drive to do it. He is too nice. I'd take dwight as my 2nd star but not as my main guy

Hawkeye15
12-29-2011, 08:14 PM
I think the CLOSEST thing to Hakeem right now, not comparing the two but I would say Pau Gasol.

Possibly. I would honestly say KG a few years back resembled him the most. Gasol doesn't have the athletic ability to even come close to Hakeem, but I am not sure anyone does...

Lidz
12-29-2011, 08:19 PM
Possibly. I would honestly say KG a few years back resembled him the most. Gasol doesn't have the athletic ability to even come close to Hakeem, but I am not sure anyone does...

I thought about KG too. I said Gasol because both he and Hakeem are 7 feet. Both weigh around 240 pounds, give or take a couple of pounds. But you're right, in the league right now, nobody comes close to Keem's athletic ability.

Hawkeye15
12-29-2011, 08:22 PM
I thought about KG too. I said Gasol because both he and Hakeem are 7 feet. Both weigh around 240 pounds, give or take a couple of pounds. But you're right, in the league right now, nobody comes close to Keem's athletic ability.

I met Hakeem. No way he was 7' haha. But hey, I met KG, and he is over 7'.

Yeah man, I was just watching classic NBA on NBAtv, and they had a 95' Rox game. He was ridiculous. He would stay with a guard for 5 seconds off the PnR, and STILL be able to recover to his man before anything happened. How is that possible?

Rocketsfan85
12-29-2011, 08:25 PM
Dwight Howard is the best center in basketball. He's a good center but he has no other competition at his position he doesn't have a offensive game whatsoever back in the day he woulda got murdered by all the centers like Hakeem,Robinson, or any of those elite centers but at this day and age I wouldn't say he's overrated in today's game

Hawkeye15
12-29-2011, 08:26 PM
Dwight Howard is the best center in basketball. He's a good center but he has no other competition at his position he doesn't have a offensive game whatsoever back in the day he woulda got murdered by all the centers like Hakeem,Robinson, or any of those elite centers but at this day and age I wouldn't say he's overrated in today's game

I think he would have struggled against Hakeem, Shaq, or Jabbar. But he would have outplayed Ewing, and possibly even Robinson imo.

Lidz
12-29-2011, 08:29 PM
I met Hakeem. No way he was 7' haha. But hey, I met KG, and he is over 7'.

Yeah man, I was just watching classic NBA on NBAtv, and they had a 95' Rox game. He was ridiculous. He would stay with a guard for 5 seconds off the PnR, and STILL be able to recover to his man before anything happened. How is that possible?

You aren't lying, he looks way taller.

But I think that's because of his long legs and his speed together. With his wingspan, his quickness and him in a defensive stance, it looks as though he could check two guards at one time. And I have the hardwood classics set to DVR.

Hawkeye15
12-29-2011, 08:33 PM
You aren't lying, he looks way taller.

But I think that's because of his long legs and his speed together. With his wingspan, his quickness and him in a defensive stance, it looks as though he could check two guards at one time. And I have the hardwood classics set to DVR.

I know he was a goalie in soccer as a kid, but yeah, just watching his ability to cover space so quickly, and retreat immediately, was amazing. Its not natural.

Raph12
12-29-2011, 08:39 PM
Defensively, Dwight plays like Hakeem; he guards small guys off the pnr effectively (simultaneously guarding the pass to his guy), he plays the passing lanes, intimidates all opponents and dominates the paint.

Offensively, he's similar to Shaq in the sense that he relies on his size and athleticism to score, but he's nowhere near as dominant and not even half the passer Shaq was. He's a hyper-efficient scorer, who struggles with his FT shooting, sound familiar?

He's a unique player, comparing him to this center or that center is just stupid, he is his own man, the second best player in the league and this generation's top center.


He's overrated in a sense that if it were any other era he would probably not be a top3 center. But because the league is so WEAK, emphasis on weak, at the 5, he seems dominant.

50s - Mikan and Dwight
60s - Wilts, Russell and Dwight
70s - Kareem, Moses and Dwight
80s - Moses, Kareem and Dwight
90s - Hakeem, DRob and Shaq are the only guys I'd rank ahead of Dwight
00s - Shaq and Yao (before Dwight got good) are the only guys I'd rank ahead of Dwight

At worst, Dwight would be Top 3, if not higher in any era besides the 90s; don't overdo it now.

GrandDaddyPurp
12-29-2011, 08:52 PM
Why is this even a question? Of course he is overrated. Dwight hasn't accomplished anything besides block shots of undersized point guards. By the time DeMarcus is the age of Dwight, he will have accomplished far more than Dwight and will go down as one of the most dominant centers to ever play the game.

RLundi
12-29-2011, 09:05 PM
Why is this even a question? Of course he is overrated. Dwight hasn't accomplished anything besides block shots of undersized point guards. By the time DeMarcus is the age of Dwight, he will have accomplished far more than Dwight and will go down as one of the most dominant centers to ever play the game.

:clap:

I owe you one, I haven't laughed that hard in weeks.

I appreciate you.

Teeboy1487
12-29-2011, 09:40 PM
Why is this even a question? Of course he is overrated. Dwight hasn't accomplished anything besides block shots of undersized point guards. By the time DeMarcus is the age of Dwight, he will have accomplished far more than Dwight and will go down as one of the most dominant centers to ever play the game.

:facepalm: Queen fans.

Lake_Show2416
12-29-2011, 09:46 PM
Why is this even a question? Of course he is overrated. Dwight hasn't accomplished anything besides block shots of undersized point guards. By the time DeMarcus is the age of Dwight, he will have accomplished far more than Dwight and will go down as one of the most dominant centers to ever play the game.

:facepalm:

SlimKid
12-29-2011, 10:33 PM
Why is this even a question? Of course he is overrated. Dwight hasn't accomplished anything besides block shots of undersized point guards. By the time DeMarcus is the age of Dwight, he will have accomplished far more than Dwight and will go down as one of the most dominant centers to ever play the game.

I was waiting for someone to throw Cousins into the conversation.. You honestly can't be serious??? I get homerism, but seriously....

blahblahyoutoo
12-29-2011, 10:46 PM
i believe he is.
he's all rebounding and defense. very little offense, and most of it comes from set ups and put backs.

you don't build a team around a guy like that.

blahblahyoutoo
12-29-2011, 10:51 PM
He's this generations Shaq.

He's rated just right, the most world's most dominant center of this decade.
Plus he's always healthy, a huge plus with any elite center...

oh, did I mention he was just 25 years old a month ago?

agreed, except shaq was a good passer, but dwight is more athletic and agile.

both are not great pure basketball players, and are in the NBA only because of their size.

naps
12-29-2011, 11:26 PM
He's rated perfectly where he should be. But I do think he gets overrated sometimes due to lack of quality centers in the league, though it's not his fault.

--23--
12-29-2011, 11:28 PM
Offensively, he's similar to Shaq in the sense that he relies on his size and athleticism to score, but he's nowhere near as dominant and not even half the passer Shaq was. He's a hyper-efficient scorer, who struggles with his FT shooting, sound familiar?


Offensively Howard is nothing like Shaq, Shaq was a monster in the post and unguardable.

ne3xchamps
12-29-2011, 11:46 PM
HOLY ****! Are you ******** me? The NBA forum continues to impress.....

blahblahyoutoo
12-29-2011, 11:49 PM
Shaq used to foul the crap out of his defenders on offense, but in those days nothing would be called: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FJ3FXLyNFew




this is why i never respected shaq's game.
he had none.

blahblahyoutoo
12-29-2011, 11:54 PM
you have to be kidding. Bynum misses 20+ games a year, and doesn't have 1/10 of the athletic ability or explosiveness that Dwight does. You replace Bynum with Dwight over the past 5 years, and its a 5 peat.

They aren't even close dude.

http://www.basketball-reference.com/play-index/pcm_finder.cgi?request=1&sum=1&p1=howardw01&y1=2012&p2=bynuman01&y2=2011

I take the one with far better numbers, and the one that doesn't ever miss a game.

are YOU kidding?
he's comparing their basketball skills. bynum at least has some semblance of post moves.
like you said, dwight is all athleticism. no basketball skill.

Hawkeye15
12-30-2011, 12:01 AM
are YOU kidding?
he's comparing their basketball skills. bynum at least has some semblance of post moves.
like you said, dwight is all athleticism. no basketball skill.

and Melo has more pure basketball skill than LeBron. How is that working out?

When the hell with fans get over a player who may indeed have more fundamentals, yet doesn't sniff the level of play of that so called lesser fundamental player?

blahblahyoutoo
12-30-2011, 12:03 AM
He's no Shaq thats forsure, he wont average more than 25 points but he's a Hakeem type of center, where he is more defense than offense. I can see him winning at least two championships. He's always healthy too so thats a plus

hakeem was just as good offensively as he was defensively.
you should check out his post moves.
best center of all time IMO.

blahblahyoutoo
12-30-2011, 12:05 AM
and Melo has more pure basketball skill than LeBron. How is that working out?

When the hell with fans get over a player who may indeed have more fundamentals, yet doesn't sniff the level of play of that so called lesser fundamental player?

i agree with you that melo is better than lebron from an overall offensive skillset. i see you're trying to get me riled up by making it personal but it doesn't work with me.

Hawkeye15
12-30-2011, 12:10 AM
i agree with you that melo is better than lebron from an overall offensive skillset. i see you're trying to get me riled up by making it personal but it doesn't work with me.

Excuse me? I am one of the biggest Bron fans on this site. My point is, if you want to say Bynum has more pure skill than Dwight, I am pulling the Melo/Bron debate out, since its the same pathetic argument.

Dwight>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>Bynum.

Easy.

naps
12-30-2011, 12:15 AM
Offensively, he's similar to Shaq in the sense that he relies on his size and athleticism to score, but he's nowhere near as dominant and not even half the passer Shaq was. He's a hyper-efficient scorer, who struggles with his FT shooting, sound familiar?

Wrong. You are clearly underrating Shaq's moves. He had nasty moves around the rim.


the second best player in the league

That's when I think he gets overrated.

blahblahyoutoo
12-30-2011, 12:19 AM
Excuse me? I am one of the biggest Bron fans on this site. My point is, if you want to say Bynum has more pure skill than Dwight, I am pulling the Melo/Bron debate out, since its the same pathetic argument.

Dwight>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>Bynum.

Easy.

easy to compare because bynum is injured half the time.
no one is questioning that dwight is more dominant than bynum, a lot of which is due to bynums injury.
if bynum could stay healthy, the gap would be a lot smaller.

RipCity32
12-30-2011, 12:19 AM
I call them as I see them. There are two things that are great about Dwight Howard. One: He is as good as any rebounder in the league. Two: He is a dominant interior defender.


But what else is there? He has no range. He can't pass out of the double team (he's still posting more turnovers than assists). His FT% is horrible, and he has no post moves other than the 'drop-and-spear-my-should' $#!T that he does, which is CLEARLY an offensive foul (though it rarely gets called). He does create his own offense via offensive rebounds, but he essentially gets the ball when defences break down and he dunks, or his picks up a board on the offensive glass and dunks. I mean, he's worth what they are paying him, but at the same time his limited offensive skills, and inability to pass do make him hard to build around (not that Orlando has done a very good job of that so far).

Thoughts?

You can't be serious this is ridiculous,but to answer your question NO

Hawkeye15
12-30-2011, 12:29 AM
easy to compare because bynum is injured half the time.
no one is questioning that dwight is more dominant than bynum, a lot of which is due to bynums injury.
if bynum could stay healthy, the gap would be a lot smaller.

As a sports fan for 25 years, the word "if" is a no-no.

Raph12
12-30-2011, 03:00 AM
Offensively Howard is nothing like Shaq, Shaq was a monster in the post and unguardable.

Wrong. You are clearly underrating Shaq's moves. He had nasty moves around the rim.

Shaq also bulldozed the crap out of guys, he relied heavily on his size, strength and athleticism to score and his postmoves really consisted only of a dropstep and an up-and-under; nothing special there. His moves weren't what made him so unstoppable on offense, it was his physicality and passing that made him untouchable in his prime... I never said Dwight was on Shaq's level offensively, I said he is best compared to Shaq in terms of what he does to score.


That's when I think he gets overrated.

And I suppose you think Wade is better, or KD/CP3/Dirk/Kobe/etc... Those guys are all inferior when you compare impact, productivity and efficiency combined. Dwight is the 2nd best player in the league, whether you like it or not.


hakeem was just as good offensively as he was defensively.
you should check out his post moves.
best center of all time IMO.

Yes but Hakeem was nowhere near as dominant as Shaq offensively; lower PER, ORTG, TS%, eFG%, AST% and a higher TO%. He may have umpteem times more moves than Shaq had, but Shaq was still more dominant offensively than the Dream ever was.

...

The point is this; it doesn't matter how Dwight scores his points, all that matters is that he's productive yet efficient, that's what a dominant center does offensively. Dwight's passing numbers are poor, but scoring-wise, he's a very productive scorer and does it very efficiently; dominant on that end as well. Defensively, Dwight's numbers (not per game as it was a different pace and needs to be adjusted) and impact can be compared with any great center of all-time.

He just turned 26 years old on Dec 8th and is continuing to improve his game, if he continues to dominate the league as he has or gets any better in the next 5 years or so; he will go down as a Top 10 center of all-time.