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SkipBaylessFan
12-28-2011, 07:11 AM
If the T-Wolves were a playoff team, or if he played for a big market winning team (Lakers for example) and put up the kind of numbers he's capable of (30 Points and 20 rebounds last night), where would he rate amongst the leagues' best? He puts in some amazing performances, but at the same time it's kind of hollow when your team still loses.

LakersIn5
12-28-2011, 07:19 AM
better than blake

CityofChaos
12-28-2011, 08:28 AM
better than Steve blake

Edited for ya.

MickeyMgl
12-28-2011, 08:59 AM
If the T-Wolves were a playoff team, or if he played for a big market winning team (Lakers for example) and put up the kind of numbers his capable of (30 Points and 20 rebounds last night) were would he rate amongst the leagues' best? He puts up in some amazing performances, but at the same time it's kind of hollow when your team still loses.

We'd be talking MVP.

Hellcrooner
12-28-2011, 09:09 AM
he wouldnt mantain that stats.

example, straight up trade for pau gasol.

kobe ( andbynum) removes from his ppg until he is around 16/17 ppg

Bynum removes from his rpg leaving it at 9/ 10 rpg

still allstar numbers.

Hawkeye15
12-28-2011, 09:47 AM
On a great team, his per game numbers would take a small dip. He is only 23, and this is his 2nd year in a prominent role. Lets say he was on a top 6 team. I would think his advanced numbers get even better (that is what happens with talent around you many times), but he would be a 20-13 guy. Perennial all star, 2nd team All NBA type. I don't know if he has the ability to break into the top 5 players at any given point, but during his prime, he will be a top 10 player no doubt. He is the ULTIMATE compliment, and in the discussion for a franchise player. Without having more than 5 plays run for him the entire night, he gets ridiculous numbers. He creates possessions with completely dominant rebounding. He hasn't even started hitting his jumpers yet. When those start falling, his numbers this year will be insane. He got a lot of all star calls on fouls last night, so the refs have started respecting his game. His weight loss is helping his game, which is easy to see. He is so much quicker, and pulled a move I have never seen him do last night. 17 feet from the rim, upfaked, 2 dribbles, and dunked in traffic.

I don't care what team he is on. He is a machine. Top 15 player last year, he will be top 10 this year imho.

abe_froman
12-28-2011, 09:52 AM
isnt he seen as among the top? maybe not top 10-but top 25

He115ing
12-28-2011, 10:01 AM
he wouldnt mantain that stats.

example, straight up trade for pau gasol.

kobe ( andbynum) removes from his ppg until he is around 16/17 ppg

Bynum removes from his rpg leaving it at 9/ 10 rpg

still allstar numbers.

dude are you serious? Did you see the numbers he put up last season? I think no matter what team he is on he would be able to maintain his numbers.

Bruno
12-28-2011, 10:04 AM
love is the man. statistically speaking he was already top ten last year. love will finish a top ten player this year as well. but he will continue to not get the benefit of the doubt until he's on a winner, just how it goes when it comes to all-nba rankings. wolves fans should be excited, lots of young talent there.

Steved1828
12-28-2011, 10:08 AM
Klove is a beast and I don't think where he plays will dictate the type of number he puts up. Playing on a top 5 team should actually help him, as teams would not be able to make him the focal point of their game plan. On the Twolves he is who teams game plan to stop night in and night out!

Sly Guy
12-28-2011, 10:41 AM
he wouldnt mantain that stats.

example, straight up trade for pau gasol.

kobe ( andbynum) removes from his ppg until he is around 16/17 ppg

Bynum removes from his rpg leaving it at 9/ 10 rpg

still allstar numbers.

this. His numbers are inflated cuz he's the only guy on that team doing those things. He's a solid player, but not a 30-20 guy night in night out.

daleja424
12-28-2011, 10:44 AM
impossible for me to say...bc he wouldnt be putting up those kind of numbers.

You put that guy with two other stars (as would be required for him to play for a contender) and he isnt getting the touches anymore. Put him with guys who can actually rebound and he isnt pulling down 15-20 boards a night either more than likely.

Also, 30 and 20 sounds great until you look into it further and see that he did it on 6-18 FG shooting and in a loss. When you go 6-18 from the field and 0-4 from the three point line and your team loses by 3 points... thats probably on you. I didn't watch the game, so I can't say for certain...but when my big man is shooting 33% I am going to assume he played a significant role in that loss.

daleja424
12-28-2011, 10:48 AM
He is also a guy, in his career, that likes to sandwhich above average games between two below average games... something that the best players in this league usually don't do...

hugepatsfan
12-28-2011, 10:55 AM
Love, at least from what I understand, isn't a guy that needs touches drawn up for him. He gets a lot of putbacks and then knocks down open 3s. Those points come w/in the flow of the offense. I think he is an incredible rebounder, so even next to a guy like Bynum (crooner mentioned him), he could still get 11-12 rebounds per game. His scoring might take a dip to 18-20 ppg, but that is still impressive.

DR_1
12-28-2011, 10:57 AM
On a great team, his per game numbers would take a small dip. He is only 23, and this is his 2nd year in a prominent role. Lets say he was on a top 6 team. I would think his advanced numbers get even better (that is what happens with talent around you many times), but he would be a 20-13 guy. Perennial all star, 2nd team All NBA type. I don't know if he has the ability to break into the top 5 players at any given point, but during his prime, he will be a top 10 player no doubt. He is the ULTIMATE compliment, and in the discussion for a franchise player. Without having more than 5 plays run for him the entire night, he gets ridiculous numbers. He creates possessions with completely dominant rebounding. He hasn't even started hitting his jumpers yet. When those start falling, his numbers this year will be insane. He got a lot of all star calls on fouls last night, so the refs have started respecting his game. His weight loss is helping his game, which is easy to see. He is so much quicker, and pulled a move I have never seen him do last night. 17 feet from the rim, upfaked, 2 dribbles, and dunked in traffic.

I don't care what team he is on. He is a machine. Top 15 player last year, he will be top 10 this year imho.

:clap: what this man said.

Hawkeye15
12-28-2011, 10:59 AM
impossible for me to say...bc he wouldnt be putting up those kind of numbers.

You put that guy with two other stars (as would be required for him to play for a contender) and he isnt getting the touches anymore. Put him with guys who can actually rebound and he isnt pulling down 15-20 boards a night either more than likely.

Also, 30 and 20 sounds great until you look into it further and see that he did it on 6-18 FG shooting and in a loss. When you go 6-18 from the field and 0-4 from the three point line and your team loses by 3 points... thats probably on you. I didn't watch the game, so I can't say for certain...but when my big man is shooting 33% I am going to assume he played a significant role in that loss.

His jumper isn't falling yet, and it will. 31 points on 18 attempts is very good, no matter how you cut it. Love was the only reason we were even in the game dude. The only reason. Franchise record 24 free throw attempts, making 19. Getting the other team in the bonus constantly.

The reason we lose most games is perimeter defense and Beasley taking every shot he possibly can.

Love has minimal plays run for him. He gets his points off pure determination, and drawing fouls. That wouldn't change no matter who/what you put around him. As I said, his per game numbers would dip on a top, top team, but his level of play wouldn't change a bit.


He is also a guy, in his career, that likes to sandwhich above average games between two below average games... something that the best players in this league usually don't do...

I repsect you as a poster, so I will say only the following: Watch them play before you attempt to dissect Love. You will be pleasantly surprised. I guess you get to see him in 2 days anyways, but tune into some Wolves games this year. He is a very, very good player.

Hawkeye15
12-28-2011, 11:00 AM
I find it interesting that nobody mentions that if Love were next to another dominant rebounder, their numbers would dip hardcore.

WSU Tony
12-28-2011, 11:02 AM
Love scored 16 points on three field goal attempts at one point in the game last night. He has taken like 5 charges in his first two games, he averages 14-15 rebounds a game, he's a great outlet passer.

The only real argument you have against him is he doesn't fly above defenders for a dunk. If your looking for flash, go with Blake. If your looking for incredible numbers, go for Love.

Check the other bottom 10 teams in the league, how many of their players go 20/15 on any given night? Shouldn't they have the same "crappy team" around them? Shouldn't that make it "easy" for them to put up those kind of numbers?

Hawkeye15
12-28-2011, 11:06 AM
Love scored 16 points on three field goal attempts at one point in the game last night. He has taken like 5 charges in his first two games, he averages 14-15 rebounds a game, he's a great outlet passer.

The only real argument you have against him is he doesn't fly above defenders for a dunk. If your looking for flash, go with Blake. If your looking for incredible numbers, go for Love.

Check the other bottom 10 teams in the league, how many of their players go 20/15 on any given night? Shouldn't they have the same "crappy team" around them? Shouldn't that make it "easy" for them to put up those kind of numbers?

that was my argument last year. Whenever someone said, "he just gets his numbers on a crappy team!", my response was, in decades of NBA basketball, there have been TONS of crappy teams, and no player has put up the numbers Love does. Isn't it time to realize the man is a machine?

WSU Tony
12-28-2011, 11:07 AM
impossible for me to say...bc he wouldnt be putting up those kind of numbers.

You put that guy with two other stars (as would be required for him to play for a contender) and he isnt getting the touches anymore. Put him with guys who can actually rebound and he isnt pulling down 15-20 boards a night either more than likely.

Also, 30 and 20 sounds great until you look into it further and see that he did it on 6-18 FG shooting and in a loss. When you go 6-18 from the field and 0-4 from the three point line and your team loses by 3 points... thats probably on you. I didn't watch the game, so I can't say for certain...but when my big man is shooting 33% I am going to assume he played a significant role in that loss.

30 points on 18 shots. That's all you need to hear. 1.66 points per shot.

Shooting percentage means nothing, look at points per shot.... ;)

Hawkeye15
12-28-2011, 11:13 AM
30 points on 18 shots. That's all you need to hear. 1.66 points per shot.

Shooting percentage means nothing, look at points per shot.... ;)

well, 37.5% FG is alarming, but its 2 games. He will again be over 45% this season. The refs are also starting to give him some star treatment, giving him FT's that he probably doesn't deserve. If the refs are on his side, expect a montrous statistical season.

Have you ever seen him pull that dribble drive dunk in traffic like last night? The weight loss is going to help his game big time.

Steved1828
12-28-2011, 11:14 AM
this. His numbers are inflated cuz he's the only guy on that team doing those things. He's a solid player, but not a 30-20 guy night in night out.

Who is a 30-20 guy night in and night out????

WSU Tony
12-28-2011, 11:16 AM
that was my argument last year. Whenever someone said, "he just gets his numbers on a crappy team!", my response was, in decades of NBA basketball, there have been TONS of crappy teams, and no player has put up the numbers Love does. Isn't it time to realize the man is a machine?

He's a white guy, who's slow, isn't flashy, and doesn't have bulging muscles. I don't blame NBA fans for not understanding him.

ESPN had a list up of players with the highest (points + rebounds + assists) and Love ranked like 4th or 5th on the list over the past three years. This speaks volumes considering how much better he was last year as compared to his first two years. Anyways, for him to be on that list and NOT be a chucker is a huge complement to his game and how he will help any team he's on win. Now, if we could find people to put around him who aren't his exact opposite (Beasley) we would start winning games.

Hell, it's the same reason I can't believe people still like Beasley.

Hellcrooner
12-28-2011, 11:16 AM
dude are you serious? Did you see the numbers he put up last season? I think no matter what team he is on he would be able to maintain his numbers.


Deppends who whe is playing with.

If he is playing with a KObe , or Lebron and Wade, his scoring numbers woudl PLUMBET because of the lack of touches.

IF he isntead is playing with RONDO, or STEVE NASH, he may average 35 points per game.


As for rebounding, it deppend who he is competing for rebounds with.

Steved1828
12-28-2011, 11:20 AM
Love scored 16 points on three field goal attempts at one point in the game last night. He has taken like 5 charges in his first two games, he averages 14-15 rebounds a game, he's a great outlet passer.

The only real argument you have against him is he doesn't fly above defenders for a dunk. If your looking for flash, go with Blake. If your looking for incredible numbers, go for Love.

Check the other bottom 10 teams in the league, how many of their players go 20/15 on any given night? Shouldn't they have the same "crappy team" around them? Shouldn't that make it "easy" for them to put up those kind of numbers?

Great point! :clap:

hugepatsfan
12-28-2011, 11:22 AM
Deppends who whe is playing with.

If he is playing with a KObe , or Lebron and Wade, his scoring numbers woudl PLUMBET because of the lack of touches.

IF he isntead is playing with RONDO, or STEVE NASH, he may average 35 points per game.


As for rebounding, it deppend who he is competing for rebounds with.

Love doesn't need touches though. He gets a ton of offensive rebounds, resulting in put backs and free throws. He also spreads the floor because he's a knock down 3 point shooter. He can get 18 PPG on any team IMO.

lvlheaded
12-28-2011, 11:24 AM
They should offer him straight up for Dwight. That's the closest thing they will get to equal value

Hawkeye15
12-28-2011, 11:24 AM
Deppends who whe is playing with.

If he is playing with a KObe , or Lebron and Wade, his scoring numbers woudl PLUMBET because of the lack of touches.

IF he isntead is playing with RONDO, or STEVE NASH, he may average 35 points per game.


As for rebounding, it deppend who he is competing for rebounds with.

If he were with a team that had players that could get others easy shots, he would still score. The Wolves barely run a play for him. He gets his numbers in pure flow and off offensive rebounds. He draws fouls as well as anyone. I don't think there is a single team he wouldn't average at least 17-18 on. And there are 20+ teams he would still get over 20 a night on.

As for rebounding, unless you put him next to Dwight, he is still going to win some rebounding crowns. And if you put him next to Dwight, both of them are out of the race for best rebounder.

Hawkeye15
12-28-2011, 11:26 AM
Lets replace Bosh with Love. How can you tell me he wouldn't still get 18-20 a night easily? LeBron and Wade, along with Love, would have teams in the penalty early in the quarter. Love gets fouled constantly when teams double team him on rebounds, and he would LIVE at the line on a great team.

WSU Tony
12-28-2011, 11:34 AM
Love would put up Pau type numbers on the Lakers. Probably more efficiently than Pau, actually.

daleja424
12-28-2011, 12:00 PM
30 points on 18 shots. That's all you need to hear. 1.66 points per shot.

Shooting percentage means nothing, look at points per shot.... ;)

I suppose it didn't require any possessions for him to get 24 FT attempts.

Anyone can make up a stat like points per FGA... but wouldn't points per effective FG attempt make more sense.

Because when you look at scoring possessions it took him 18 (FGA) + 12 (24 FTA/2) + 3 TOs... 33 scoring possessions to get 31 points... which is 0.94 points per effective FGA...

That is just a touch above the league average last year of 0.92 points per effective FGA.

Hawkeye15
12-28-2011, 12:07 PM
I suppose it didn't require any possessions for him to get 24 FT attempts.

Anyone can make up a stat like points per FGA... but wouldn't points per effective FG attempt make more sense.

Because when you look at scoring possessions it took him 18 (FGA) + 12 (24 FTA/2) + 3 TOs... 33 scoring possessions to get 31 points... which is 0.94 points per effective FGA...

That is just a touch above the league average last year of 0.92 points per effective FGA.

no doubt it was an ugly 30-20 game, but you can't believe his 37.5% from the field will continue man. As I said, the only reason we were even in it was because of Love.

Just watch him some this year. If you are using stats to evaluate Love, over the course of a season you know that is a complete fail brother. He is a stat monster.

daleja424
12-28-2011, 12:09 PM
His jumper isn't falling yet, and it will. 31 points on 18 attempts is very good, no matter how you cut it. Love was the only reason we were even in the game dude. The only reason. Franchise record 24 free throw attempts, making 19. Getting the other team in the bonus constantly.

The reason we lose most games is perimeter defense and Beasley taking every shot he possibly can.

Love has minimal plays run for him. He gets his points off pure determination, and drawing fouls. That wouldn't change no matter who/what you put around him. As I said, his per game numbers would dip on a top, top team, but his level of play wouldn't change a bit.



I repsect you as a poster, so I will say only the following: Watch them play before you attempt to dissect Love. You will be pleasantly surprised. I guess you get to see him in 2 days anyways, but tune into some Wolves games this year. He is a very, very good player.
I'v watched him play before. He is very opportunistic...and he really compiles stats against weaker opponents...but the numbers do not lie. When he is playing against good competition his numbers are nothing but solid. Nothing that screams elite to me.


I find it interesting that nobody mentions that if Love were next to another dominant rebounder, their numbers would dip hardcore.
I did mention that.


Love scored 16 points on three field goal attempts at one point in the game last night. He has taken like 5 charges in his first two games, he averages 14-15 rebounds a game, he's a great outlet passer.

The only real argument you have against him is he doesn't fly above defenders for a dunk. If your looking for flash, go with Blake. If your looking for incredible numbers, go for Love.

Check the other bottom 10 teams in the league, how many of their players go 20/15 on any given night? Shouldn't they have the same "crappy team" around them? Shouldn't that make it "easy" for them to put up those kind of numbers?
Kris Humphries just did it a couple nights ago...


well, 37.5% FG is alarming, but its 2 games. He will again be over 45% this season. The refs are also starting to give him some star treatment, giving him FT's that he probably doesn't deserve. If the refs are on his side, expect a montrous statistical season.

Have you ever seen him pull that dribble drive dunk in traffic like last night? The weight loss is going to help his game big time.
No doubt he is in better shape and that will be huge.


Lets replace Bosh with Love. How can you tell me he wouldn't still get 18-20 a night easily? LeBron and Wade, along with Love, would have teams in the penalty early in the quarter. Love gets fouled constantly when teams double team him on rebounds, and he would LIVE at the line on a great team.
I really doubt that he would still get 18-20 a night. I really do. People forget how inflated Bosh's numbers were when he was alone on a crappy team... and look now.

daleja424
12-28-2011, 12:10 PM
no doubt it was an ugly 30-20 game, but you can't believe his 37.5% from the field will continue man. As I said, the only reason we were even in it was because of Love.

Just watch him some this year. If you are using stats to evaluate Love, over the course of a season you know that is a complete fail brother. He is a stat monster.

Oh I don't expect him to stay in the 30s percentage wise... just saying that making up a stat like points/FG attempt an ignoring that he had 15 other scornig possessions is silly.

Also, just pointing out that you can have a 30 point game that isnt really all that special.

Hawkeye15
12-28-2011, 12:11 PM
[QUOTE=daleja424;20292750I really doubt that he would still get 18-20 a night. I really do. People forget how inflated Bosh's numbers were when he was alone on a crappy team... and look now.[/QUOTE]

Than we will agree to disagree. He would literally live at the FT line on a great team that was able to get him an easy shot for once in his life, and get teams in the penalty.

Hawkeye15
12-28-2011, 12:12 PM
Oh I don't expect him to stay in the 30s percentage wise... just saying that making up a stat like points/FG attempt an ignoring that he had 15 other scornig possessions is silly.

Also, just pointing out that you can have a 30 point game that isnt really all that special.

any 30 point game Beasley has ever had is this.... lol

rhymeratic
12-28-2011, 12:17 PM
If he was a New York Knick he'd be listed as a top 5 ALL-TIME GREAT. lmao

hugepatsfan
12-28-2011, 12:20 PM
I really doubt that he would still get 18-20 a night. I really do. People forget how inflated Bosh's numbers were when he was alone on a crappy team... and look now.

Bosh is an entirely different player. He doesn't hit the offensive glass like Love does. Love doesn't need a single play drawn up for him to get 15 points. He can get that just w/ putbacks and then standing at the 3 line. Chris Bosh was right in line w/ his career #s last year shotting wise, but just w/ 3 less shots per game (thus the dip in PPG). Love wouldn't have that issue because his shots really wouldn't decrease w/ other great players. He just gets his on his own really.

If anything, playing w/ guys like Wade and LBJ would HELP him because he'd probably get more open 3s w/ them crashing on the pentrators. I have 0 dount at all that he could get 18-20 on a team like MIA.

WSU Tony
12-28-2011, 12:22 PM
Oh I don't expect him to stay in the 30s percentage wise... just saying that making up a stat like points/FG attempt an ignoring that he had 15 other scornig possessions is silly.

Also, just pointing out that you can have a 30 point game that isnt really all that special.

I guess I'm not sure what you're arguing for. Love is elite. We both know it.

Love went 30/20 while missing most of his field goal attempts. What would his line be like had he made more of them? You can't honestly think his .30 shooting will continue. What will Love be when it naturally increases?

Hawkeye15
12-28-2011, 12:31 PM
If he was a New York Knick he'd be listed as a top 5 ALL-TIME GREAT. lmao

haha, that is funny, yet partially true. At least by the media and fans.

daleja424
12-28-2011, 12:32 PM
I guess I'm not sure what you're arguing for. Love is elite. We both know it.

Love went 30/20 while missing most of his field goal attempts. What would his line be like had he made more of them? You can't honestly think his .30 shooting will continue. What will Love be when it naturally increases?

You may agree he is elite... but I reserve judgement.

As a rebounder he is elite... but I would argue that you have to be elite at more than one skill to be an elite player in the league.

For example, Kyle Korver is an elite 3 point shooter...btu I wouldn't say he is an elite player.

Right now there is NO WAY I would say Kevin Love is elite. He may be on his way to being elite... but as long as my big man has sub 50% FG%, doesn't block shots, etc... I have a hard time considering him elite

Right now there are two elite big men in this league as far as I am concerned: Dirk and Howard... and that is it. Love falls somewhere in the 5th-10th place range for big man on my list.

Hawkeye15
12-28-2011, 12:36 PM
You may agree he is elite... but I reserve judgement.

As a rebounder he is elite... but I would argue that you have to be elite at more than one skill to be an elite player in the league.

For example, Kyle Korver is an elite 3 point shooter...btu I wouldn't say he is an elite player.

Right now there is NO WAY I would say Kevin Love is elite. He may be on his way to being elite... but as long as my big man has sub 50% FG%, doesn't block shots, etc... I have a hard time considering him elite

Right now there are two elite big men in this league as far as I am concerned: Dirk and Howard... and that is it. Love falls somewhere in the 5th-10th place range for big man on my list.

I think a relatively easy argument can be made that Love would be better for the Heat than Bosh. I think Love is a top 5-6 big man.

-Kobe24-TJ19-
12-28-2011, 12:42 PM
he wouldnt mantain that stats.

example, straight up trade for pau gasol.

kobe ( andbynum) removes from his ppg until he is around 16/17 ppg

Bynum removes from his rpg leaving it at 9/ 10 rpg

still allstar numbers.

stop

-Kobe24-TJ19-
12-28-2011, 12:44 PM
impossible for me to say...bc he wouldnt be putting up those kind of numbers.

You put that guy with two other stars (as would be required for him to play for a contender) and he isnt getting the touches anymore. Put him with guys who can actually rebound and he isnt pulling down 15-20 boards a night either more than likely.

Also, 30 and 20 sounds great until you look into it further and see that he did it on 6-18 FG shooting and in a loss. When you go 6-18 from the field and 0-4 from the three point line and your team loses by 3 points... thats probably on you. I didn't watch the game, so I can't say for certain...but when my big man is shooting 33% I am going to assume he played a significant role in that loss.

he shot 19-24 from the FT line

BrahCake954
12-28-2011, 12:56 PM
better than blake

lmaoo.. love is just a stat padder.. doesnt win games or make teammates better

WSU Tony
12-28-2011, 01:01 PM
If Blake had better stats, would you say the same?

What about Kobe? Is he a stat padder? We've looked into his "clutch factor," so please don't bring that up as an argument.

Sadds The Gr8
12-28-2011, 01:07 PM
People who say Love is a stat padder are clowns...guy is easily one of the best players in the league.

hugepatsfan
12-28-2011, 01:15 PM
The "big stats on a bad team argument" doesn't make sense when those stats come w/ such great efficiency. That argument makes sense for a guy like Beasely, but not Love.

WSU Tony
12-28-2011, 01:20 PM
That is exactly right. If Love was jacking up shots to score 30 points, that's one thing. Look at his rebounding % stats (both offensive and defensive). The guy is a technique freak.

Unfortunately, most passive NBA fans don't care about footwork involved in rebounding or easy buckets, they care about dunks. An average NBA fan will take 1 huge dunk over 3 player created layups due to footwork.

upt_
12-28-2011, 01:22 PM
If you can't love Love.. then you my friend are a hater. His rebounding ability has already been discussed amongst experts and it's his technique meaning his own personal ability to grab down as many boards as he does.. on top of that he has great range for a big man and can push the interior defence outwards. If he was on a contending team, i'd think this would make him even better and put up better numbers than what he's doing right now.. maybe not in terms of rebounding but definitely will be able to get better shots as the focus will not be entirely on him

upt_
12-28-2011, 01:24 PM
All in all, i think he's truly underrated by some. And just cause Blake Griffin puts up spectacular dunks and what not.. doesn't necessarily make him the better player. But the ability to draw fouls, constantly grab boards and the range that Love has... i think he is indeed the better overall player sorry to say. Not saying that Griff is bad.. but Love is better.

Hellcrooner
12-28-2011, 01:53 PM
All in all, i think he's truly underrated by some. And just cause Blake Griffin puts up spectacular dunks and what not.. doesn't necessarily make him the better player. But the ability to draw fouls, constantly grab boards and the range that Love has... i think he is indeed the better overall player sorry to say. Not saying that Griff is bad.. but Love is better.

Lol, Griffin is not even half the player Love is.
COmpletely overated by the dunk show.

Cal827
12-28-2011, 01:58 PM
He would be much better than Blake lol... If they both put up those numbers, I would still probably go with Love since he has more range than Griffin.

He would probably win MVP, MIP, DPOY, NBA1st team, NBA defensive team, Playoff MVP, WNBA HOF, NFL MVP, and a lifetime supply of some nice white chocolate lol

mavwar53
12-28-2011, 02:20 PM
If he was a winner yes, but I don't think the guy is a winner, he can't push a team to win.

Hawkeye15
12-28-2011, 02:23 PM
If he was a winner yes, but I don't think the guy is a winner, he can't push a team to win.

you realize the pure crap he has had around him during his short career, right? Nobody could win a bunch of games with those players.

BKLYNpigeon
12-28-2011, 02:25 PM
Kevin Love has one of the worst Plus Minus totals in the league. he may put up 30/20 but his teams does not play as well when he is on the floor.

Hawkeye15
12-28-2011, 02:26 PM
Kevin Love has one of the worst Plus Minus totals in the league. he may put up 30/20 but his teams does not play as well when he is on the floor.

are you serious?

Iodine
12-28-2011, 02:28 PM
To the OP: Your a Skip Bayless fan, your opinion matters slightly less than an infants

Iodine
12-28-2011, 02:29 PM
Kevin Love has one of the worst Plus Minus totals in the league. he may put up 30/20 but his teams does not play as well when he is on the floor.

http://farm3.staticflickr.com/2358/2518403659_c7ae3ec69e.jpg

BKLYNpigeon
12-28-2011, 02:36 PM
KLove Has great Numbers, but the Twolves perform worse when hes on the floor. its a fact! check his stats.

Hawkeye15
12-28-2011, 02:37 PM
KLove Has great Numbers, but the Twolves perform worse when hes on the floor. its a fact! check his stats.

http://www.82games.com/1011/1011MIN.HTM

-Kobe24-TJ19-
12-28-2011, 02:38 PM
Kevin Love has one of the worst Plus Minus totals in the league. he may put up 30/20 but his teams does not play as well when he is on the floor.

http://www.82games.com/1011/1011MIN.HTM

-Kobe24-TJ19-
12-28-2011, 02:39 PM
http://www.82games.com/1011/1011min.htm

beat me do it

Iodine
12-28-2011, 02:40 PM
hahahahaahah oh **** the fabled double rape

WSU Tony
12-28-2011, 02:40 PM
Kevin Love has one of the worst Plus Minus totals in the league. he may put up 30/20 but his teams does not play as well when he is on the floor.

Win Shares (although controversial) is the estimated number of wins contributed by a player per 48 minutes.....

League average is 1.00

Griffin last year - 1.52
Love last year - 2.10

Griffin's PER last year - 21.9
Loves PER last year - 24.3

Now that you have more information to make an educated decision, are you going to admit you were wrong or will you spin your wheels and gain no traction?

James Dolan
12-28-2011, 02:41 PM
I wonder if I could pull off an Amare for Love swap. I've appreciated Amare's services,
but Kevin is the new era. He can bring New York to the promised land. He
reminds me so much of Bill Walton.

WSU Tony
12-28-2011, 02:43 PM
Much talk of NY, not much of Minnesota. Why would we swap the two?

Iodine
12-28-2011, 02:44 PM
Win Shares (although controversial) is the estimated number of wins contributed by a player per 48 minutes.....

League average is 1.00

Griffin last year - 1.52
Love last year - 2.10

Griffin's PER last year - 21.9
Loves PER last year - 24.3

Now that you have more information to make an educated decision, are you going to admit you were wrong or will you spin your wheels and gain no traction?
Oh as PBR puts it

Year Team Age G MPG Usg 3PA% FTA% INS 2P% 3P% FT% TS% Reb% Ast% TO% BLK% STL% PF% oRTG dRTG Win% WARP
08-09 MIN 20.6 81 25.3 .211 .020 .155 1.135 .469 .105 .789 .538 .212 .019 .124 .013 .009 .045 111.6 109.9 .555 5.9
09-10 MIN 21.6 60 28.6 .226 .120 .137 1.017 .474 .330 .815 .549 .216 .035 .132 .010 .012 .035 113.8 109.1 .643 8.1

10-11 MIN 22.6 73 35.8 .230 .151 .157 1.006 .483 .417 .850 .593 .239 .030 .111 .008 .008 .024 115.7 108.3 .715 16.3

BKLYNpigeon
12-28-2011, 02:44 PM
got me! I just read an article about Love and his plus minus and why the Twolves cant win. prior to this thread.

Hawkeye15
12-28-2011, 02:45 PM
I wonder if I could pull off an Amare for Love swap. I've appreciated Amare's services,
but Kevin is the new era. He can bring New York to the promised land. He
reminds me so much of Bill Walton.

I wouldn't trade Love for Amare. Love is younger, and just as good right now as Amare. He will be much better over the next 8 years than Amare would.

BKLYNpigeon
12-28-2011, 02:45 PM
If KLove is so dominate, why does Minney so bad? If Lebron put those number up in Minny they would have 10 more wins a season.

Hawkeye15
12-28-2011, 02:46 PM
got me! I just read an article about Love and his plus minus and why the Twolves cant win. prior to this thread.

can you line it dude? Statistically, Love is a top 5 player. In reality, its more like top 15, ranking for last year that is. I honestly think he slips into the top 10-12 this season.

Matrix3132
12-28-2011, 02:46 PM
this. His numbers are inflated cuz he's the only guy on that team doing those things. He's a solid player, but not a 30-20 guy night in night out.

He's had 5 30/20 games, who would ever think he's a 30/20 guy night in and night out?

James Dolan
12-28-2011, 02:47 PM
If KLove is so dominate, why does Minney so bad? If Lebron put those number up in Minny they would have 10 more wins a season.

Cleveland's teams were so stacked! I wish I could've built the
Knicks like that earlier in the new millennium.

Hawkeye15
12-28-2011, 02:47 PM
If KLove is so dominate, why does Minney so bad? If Lebron put those number up in Minny they would have 10 more wins a season.

well yeah. Bron showed he adds a ton of wins by himself. Nobody is saying Love is on LeBron's level dude. The Wolves last year, had Luke ****ing Ridnour as their second best player statistically. Not more than 1-3 dudes in the NBA that can win 25-30 games with that roster around them, with Kurt Rambis coaching.

"I know, I will run the offense through Darko Milicic, the least efficient per possession player I have on the roster".

BKLYNpigeon
12-28-2011, 02:48 PM
KLove would never get 30-20 in NY MIA or LAL.

Iodine
12-28-2011, 02:48 PM
got me! I just read an article about Love and his plus minus and why the Twolves cant win. prior to this thread.
Good to know you regurgitate articles

If KLove is so dominate, why does Minney so bad? If Lebron put those number up in Minny they would have 10 more wins a season.

http://farm5.staticflickr.com/4083/5055032357_69d1d1be72.jpg

-Kobe24-TJ19-
12-28-2011, 02:49 PM
If KLove is so dominate, why does Minney so bad? If Lebron put those number up in Minny they would have 10 more wins a season.

Lebron is the best player in the NBA

BKLYNpigeon
12-28-2011, 02:50 PM
Im not hating on KLove. I would salivate to have him on my team. he's a great player, but not a #1 option. He's a #2 player on a team.

His numbers are a bit inflated playing on Minny.

Iodine
12-28-2011, 02:50 PM
Just remember, obvious troll is obvious

Hawkeye15
12-28-2011, 02:52 PM
KLove would never get 30-20 in NY MIA or LAL.

why not? He had 30-30 last year for the first time in 28 years. Four 20-20 games in one month, first time since 1991. Matched records not seen since before most of PSD was born.

He is a complete rebounding machine, the best in the NBA. His points come off no plays even run for him. He would get great numbers anywhere.

Do you watch him play? I am guessing not.

BKLYNpigeon
12-28-2011, 02:53 PM
for the most part KLove gets the Duncan Treatment. He does all the right things fundamentally, but nothing really jaw dropping.

Hawkeye15
12-28-2011, 02:53 PM
Im not hating on KLove. I would salivate to have him on my team. he's a great player, but not a #1 option. He's a #2 player on a team.

His numbers are a bit inflated playing on Minny.

that wasn't the question of the OP.

Hawkeye15
12-28-2011, 02:55 PM
by the way, since Beasley decides the basketball is a hot potato, and MUST shoot it everytime he touches it, Love IS the second option on his team. He ends up scoring the most points easily.

lilchuckdoubles
12-28-2011, 02:56 PM
K Love is alot better then alot of people know. He's improved alot again over the summer.

BKLYNpigeon
12-28-2011, 02:57 PM
Im just saying Minny would benefit from having another Go To Player playng alongside Love. They have a nice young core of players. Wesley and Rubio are going to fun to watch.

BKLYNpigeon
12-28-2011, 02:59 PM
K Love is alot better then alot of people know. He's improved alot again over the summer.

Thats one thing you cant knock him for. He looks like a player with the desire to get better and develop his game. Love dropped over 20 lbs!

xxplayerxx23
12-28-2011, 02:59 PM
Love is a machine. He would put up great numbers anywhere. He has the will and heart to rebound. He goes after every board. On MIami NY CHi he would grab rebounds like that. Chiago has noah which might affect him but I still think he would be 20 and 11 guy anywhere in the league.IN NY he would grab everyboard possible he might still avg 15 a game. I love the way he plays. I think by the end of the year he will be regarded as top 8-12. He is better then griffen, Has more skill level shoots better rebounds the same if not better. Griffen has the dunks. Love doesnt win because he had **** around him up until now. He has some good young talent give him a year or 2 and he will get his team competing. You could def build a team around him

Hawkeye15
12-28-2011, 03:00 PM
Im just saying Minny would benefit from having another Go To Player playng alongside Love. They have a nice young core of players. Wesley and Rubio are going to fun to watch.

Well, that really isn't what you were saying at all, but this is a no brainer man. Love has had nothing around him, poor coaching, and has had to do everything by himself. Rubio and Williams are a nice fit, and Adelman alone will help win more games. Love has also dropped a ton of weight, and it shows. He is a ton quicker, and a better leaper now.

Love will have a big year barring injury. A very big year.

Iodine
12-28-2011, 03:04 PM
for the most part KLove gets the Duncan Treatment. He does all the right things fundamentally, but nothing really jaw dropping.

But Duncan is a top 10 player of all time and the greatest PF in history

Once again to quote Sean Carter "we don't believe you"

GhostfaceDrilla
12-28-2011, 05:59 PM
On a great team, his per game numbers would take a small dip. He is only 23, and this is his 2nd year in a prominent role. Lets say he was on a top 6 team. I would think his advanced numbers get even better (that is what happens with talent around you many times), but he would be a 20-13 guy. Perennial all star, 2nd team All NBA type. I don't know if he has the ability to break into the top 5 players at any given point, but during his prime, he will be a top 10 player no doubt. He is the ULTIMATE compliment, and in the discussion for a franchise player. Without having more than 5 plays run for him the entire night, he gets ridiculous numbers. He creates possessions with completely dominant rebounding. He hasn't even started hitting his jumpers yet. When those start falling, his numbers this year will be insane. He got a lot of all star calls on fouls last night, so the refs have started respecting his game. His weight loss is helping his game, which is easy to see. He is so much quicker, and pulled a move I have never seen him do last night. 17 feet from the rim, upfaked, 2 dribbles, and dunked in traffic.

I don't care what team he is on. He is a machine. Top 15 player last year, he will be top 10 this year imho.

May I ask for your top 15 NBA players either now or after this season?

Raph12
12-28-2011, 06:26 PM
He shot 6-18 from the field and still got 24FTA, he wouldn't get those kind of touches on a team like the Lakers, Bulls, Heat or Knicks... His numbers would take a hit if he played on a better team with other great players.

Hawkeye15
12-28-2011, 06:27 PM
May I ask for your top 15 NBA players either now or after this season?

LeBron
Dwight
Wade
Paul
Durant
Dirk
Kobe
Rose
Gasol
Deron
Amare
Melo
Bosh
Love
Westbrook

Pretty much it without flipping over and really looking.

SteveNash
12-28-2011, 06:31 PM
Stats would go down across the board, would get criticized more often after failing to live up to expectations.

xxplayerxx23
12-28-2011, 06:32 PM
LeBron
Dwight
Wade
Paul
Durant
Dirk
Kobe
Rose
Gasol
Deron
Amare
Melo
Bosh
Love
Westbrook

Pretty much it without flipping over and really looking.

Amare, Gasol Over melo?

Hawkeye15
12-28-2011, 06:32 PM
I did read a couple hours ago that Love's 30-20 game was his 5th in the past 2 season, matching Shaq from 2000-01 as the only guy to do that in the past 15 years.

Guy sucks.

Hawkeye15
12-28-2011, 06:33 PM
Amare, Gasol Over melo?

Gasol is over both of them, easily. Amare and Melo are interchangeable. That isn't my exact list, I would shift one or two spots possibly after the first 6, but I didn't flip over and look at anything, just winged it.

Gasol is a better player than both Amare and Melo though, yes.

Bruno
12-28-2011, 06:33 PM
Also, 30 and 20 sounds great until you look into it further and see that he did it on 6-18 FG shooting and in a loss. When you go 6-18 from the field and 0-4 from the three point line and your team loses by 3 points... thats probably on you.

You're omitting key information. Love was 19/24 from the free-throw line, that's 79%. Regardless of FG%, he scored 31 points on 18 FGA. That's 1.71 points per field goal attempted, which is fantastic efficiency. He posted a TS% of .543, which is fine efficiency.



I didn't watch the game, so I can't say for certain...but when my big man is shooting 33% I am going to assume he played a significant role in that loss.

Raph12
12-28-2011, 06:42 PM
You're omitting key information. Love was 19/24 from the free-throw line, that's 79%. Regardless of FG%, he scored 31 points on 18 FGA. That's 1.71 points per field goal attempted, which is fantastic efficiency. He posted a TS% of .543, which is fine efficiency.

Agreed, but he wouldn't get those kind of touches on a top team with other scoring options... His numbers would look more like 17-11 than 22-15 on a good team.

Swashcuff
12-28-2011, 06:44 PM
I think anyone actually watching the Wolves play these past 3 or so seasons (I've probably seen 50+ entire games during that span) would understand that Kevin Love does not need plays ran for him to be effective. The guy basically plays independent of the system and is what can be seen as the ultimate garbage man type player. Hawkeye said it already on the first page if he plays on a better team his basic #s (probably just his points and rebounds) would take a hit but his advanced metrics (especially his efficiency) would only sky rocket.

He's quite underrated by most who don't really take the time to watch the Wolves play.

xxplayerxx23
12-28-2011, 06:45 PM
Gasol is over both of them, easily. Amare and Melo are interchangeable. That isn't my exact list, I would shift one or two spots possibly after the first 6, but I didn't flip over and look at anything, just winged it.

Gasol is a better player than both Amare and Melo though, yes.

Oh I see, IMO Melo is better then gasol. I think gasol has took a step backwards. It is pretty close between the two. I think amare is down more. I would put love ahead of him

Hawkeye15
12-28-2011, 06:47 PM
Agreed, but he wouldn't get those kind of touches on a top team with other scoring options... His numbers would look more like 17-11 than 22-15 on a good team.

the thing is, Love doesn't even have any offense run through him really. All his come in the flow of the game, and on a good team that draws fouls, he would live at the FT line.

Lakers, Heat, Bulls, or Thunder. He would still be a 18-19/13 player. He is the best rebounder in the NBA (sorry dude, he has surpassed Dwight with superior technique and will), and he would cut into any teams leading rebounders drastically.

Bruno
12-28-2011, 06:49 PM
Agreed, but he wouldn't get those kind of touches on a top team with other scoring options... His numbers would look more like 17-11 than 22-15 on a good team.

my post was in response to deja saying that love had poor scoring efficiency last night, and was thus mostly to blame for last nights loss.

Hawkeye15
12-28-2011, 06:49 PM
Oh I see, IMO Melo is better then gasol. I think gasol has took a step backwards. It is pretty close between the two. I think amare is down more. I would put love ahead of him

Well, I am basing it off last season, not enough sample size for this year. As I said, after #5-6, its really just a personal feeling, but I would debate with anyone that had someone on my list 3+ spots away from where I have them. But its a silly argument to fight over who is #9-10 haha.

Iodine
12-28-2011, 06:50 PM
You know who else would lose touches if they were on a team filled with good to great players?

EVERYONE

Hawkeye15
12-28-2011, 06:50 PM
Kobe had his best stastical season by far the year his help sucked, so its obvious that per game numbers for really good players are at their highest when their teams are at their weakest. Of course Love won't go for 23-15 on the Lakers or Heat. But its not like he isn't a top player in the NBA, and won't get his one way or another.

Swashcuff
12-28-2011, 06:51 PM
Agreed, but he wouldn't get those kind of touches on a top team with other scoring options... His numbers would look more like 17-11 than 22-15 on a good team.

Touches? Kevin Love wasn't being fed you know? Kevin Love worked for those touches it wasn't part of the team's game plan to go to Love every play down the floor (though he had a few plays which were drawn for him like the last shot of the game). Also if Love isn't getting those touches on a good team that only means he's going to get better (more open) chances. Thus meaning we'd see an rise in his efficiency basically by default.

Hawkeye15
12-28-2011, 06:54 PM
Ok, lets put Love on the Heat. He would crash the boards all night, easily dominating that column. With the breakdowns LeBron and Wade cause, he gets multiple easy looks from all over the floor. He gets a lot of free throw attempts. I truly believe he would be a HUGE part of any contending team, because he doesn't need offense run through him to have a 25-16 night for instance. He finds a way to get his, period And he does it without hurting his team.

Iodine
12-28-2011, 06:58 PM
Either way no matter what happens to kevin love, can we all agree that the fact he did volleyball in the lockout is one of the single most awesome things ever?

Swashcuff
12-28-2011, 06:59 PM
Ok, lets put Love on the Heat. He would crash the boards all night, easily dominating that column. With the breakdowns LeBron and Wade cause, he gets multiple easy looks from all over the floor. He gets a lot of free throw attempts. I truly believe he would be a HUGE part of any contending team, because he doesn't need offense run through him to have a 25-16 night for instance. He finds a way to get his, period And he does it without hurting his team.

Kevin Love on the Heat? Those outlet passes to LeBron, Wade and Cole :drool:

Bruno
12-28-2011, 06:59 PM
Ok, lets put Love on the Heat. He would crash the boards all night, easily dominating that column. With the breakdowns LeBron and Wade cause, he gets multiple easy looks from all over the floor. He gets a lot of free throw attempts. I truly believe he would be a HUGE part of any contending team, because he doesn't need offense run through him to have a 25-16 night for instance. He finds a way to get his, period And he does it without hurting his team.

totally. his total points may take a mild hit but his boards do not, and his scoring efficiency goes up. any team with Love as their third best player is a damn near lock for the title. I'm surprised you put Bosh ahead of him.

Raph12
12-28-2011, 07:00 PM
the thing is, Love doesn't even have any offense run through him really. All his come in the flow of the game, and on a good team that draws fouls, he would live at the FT line.

Lakers, Heat, Bulls, or Thunder. He would still be a 18-19/13 player. He is the best rebounder in the NBA (sorry dude, he has surpassed Dwight with superior technique and will), and he would cut into any teams leading rebounders drastically.

I doubt he got 18FGA-24FTA through the flow of the game, he had to have a significant amount of plays run for him to put up that amount of shots.

I think he could be a 17/18ppg 12/13rpg guy on the Heat, Bulls, Lakers and Thunder (depending on who he's traded for); but 23-15 has a lot to do with the TWolves. The rebounding wouldn't really come into play, guys like Dwight and Love would get theirs (12-15 depending on the team) on the board no matter what team they play for. Having teammates who attack the glass may hinder their numbers slightly, but those two guys are still beasts and would get theirs IMO.

Love's rebounding numbers will always surpass Dwight's I would think, seeming as how Dwight roams often as he is his team's only defensive force. If he didn't have to be the inside presence he is and could focus specifically on grabbing boards, then I would think this arguement would have more merit.

Iodine
12-28-2011, 07:11 PM
Also back to things that matter

8% and 7% of Love's attempts the past two years were tips (so of course 0% were assisted) according to 82games and less than 60% of his inside shots were assisted in that same time.

What does that mean in terms of role in offense?

Well consider that Dwight's shots during that span included 3%/4% tips (I will concede that a lower portion of his close shots were assisted but if you take into account all inside shots its dwight by a decent enough margin)

Amare during that time? 3% tips both times and a higher assisted rate (of course with Nash one would expect it)

KG during the same time? 2%/1% with both seasons with his buckets being assisted on over 75% of the time

Boozer during the same time? 3%/2% with both seasons beign 67% and 74% assisted rate on inside shots.

So really I know this is just one section of how to view Love's involvement but really the tip% and the assisted numbers helps paint how the player finds his buckets

GhostfaceDrilla
12-28-2011, 08:11 PM
LeBron
Dwight
Wade
Paul
Durant
Dirk
Kobe
Rose
Gasol
Deron
Amare
Melo
Bosh
Love
Westbrook

Pretty much it without flipping over and really looking.

Pretty fair list.

I would go:

1. LeBron James
2. Dwyane Wade
3. Dwight Howard
4. Chris Paul
5. Dirk Nowitzki
6. Kevin Durant
7. Kobe Bryant
8. Derrick Rose
9. Deron Williams
10. Carmelo Anthony
11. Pau Gasol
12. Amare Stoudemire
13. Rajon Rondo
14. Kevin Love
15. Blake Griffin

hugepatsfan
12-28-2011, 08:15 PM
^ Rondo at 13 is laughable. He's top 30 IMO, not top 15.

GhostfaceDrilla
12-28-2011, 08:17 PM
^ Rondo at 13 is laughable. He's top 30 IMO, not top 15.

IMO Rondo is a top 15 player. His jumpshot looks much better this season and a little later last season. Maybe a few spots too high but I think he is top 15 definitely top 20.

smith&wesson
12-28-2011, 08:28 PM
If the T-Wolves were a playoff team, or if he played for a big market winning team (Lakers for example) and put up the kind of numbers he's capable of (30 Points and 20 rebounds last night), where would he rate amongst the leagues' best? He puts in some amazing performances, but at the same time it's kind of hollow when your team still loses.

i think you will see a new timberwolves team this year. if love is really that great he will lead them to more victories because they are not lacking in talent any more.

if they continue to suck and he is still beasting ill see it as a case of inflated stats.

but its too early to tell. if he ends up leading them to the playoffs i think he deserves all the hype in the world.

topdog
12-28-2011, 08:46 PM
impossible for me to say...bc he wouldnt be putting up those kind of numbers.

You put that guy with two other stars (as would be required for him to play for a contender) and he isnt getting the touches anymore. Put him with guys who can actually rebound and he isnt pulling down 15-20 boards a night either more than likely.

Also, 30 and 20 sounds great until you look into it further and see that he did it on 6-18 FG shooting and in a loss. When you go 6-18 from the field and 0-4 from the three point line and your team loses by 3 points... thats probably on you. I didn't watch the game, so I can't say for certain...but when my big man is shooting 33% I am going to assume he played a significant role in that loss.

Actually Love is the primary reason a lackluster Wolves team was able to come back from 20pts. down.

You also blatantly ignore Love set a franchise record for free throws made last night :rolleyes: Oh, and grabbed 9 offensive rebounds.

Hawkeye15
12-28-2011, 09:39 PM
I doubt he got 18FGA-24FTA through the flow of the game, he had to have a significant amount of plays run for him to put up that amount of shots.

I think he could be a 17/18ppg 12/13rpg guy on the Heat, Bulls, Lakers and Thunder (depending on who he's traded for); but 23-15 has a lot to do with the TWolves. The rebounding wouldn't really come into play, guys like Dwight and Love would get theirs (12-15 depending on the team) on the board no matter what team they play for. Having teammates who attack the glass may hinder their numbers slightly, but those two guys are still beasts and would get theirs IMO.

Love's rebounding numbers will always surpass Dwight's I would think, seeming as how Dwight roams often as he is his team's only defensive force. If he didn't have to be the inside presence he is and could focus specifically on grabbing boards, then I would think this arguement would have more merit.

You are debating with me yet agreeing lol. Of course he won't set franchise records every night in FT's. But the guy would average 8 FTA a game on an elite team that had players that got in the penalty. He would still get his 3-4 putbacks, and on a great team, he would get 5-6 WIDE OPEN looks, and still average 17-19.

As for rebounds, yes, he will always be the best rebounder on the team in a landslide, unless he somehow ends up next to Dwight.

Hawkeye15
12-28-2011, 09:40 PM
totally. his total points may take a mild hit but his boards do not, and his scoring efficiency goes up. any team with Love as their third best player is a damn near lock for the title. I'm surprised you put Bosh ahead of him.

Reputation. Bosh will not be ahead of him after this season. Which is why I think Love moves into top 10 range. I think he passes some guys that have been doing it a while.

Hawkeye15
12-28-2011, 09:43 PM
Pretty fair list.

I would go:

1. LeBron James
2. Dwyane Wade
3. Dwight Howard
4. Chris Paul
5. Dirk Nowitzki
6. Kevin Durant
7. Kobe Bryant
8. Derrick Rose
9. Deron Williams
10. Carmelo Anthony
11. Pau Gasol
12. Amare Stoudemire
13. Rajon Rondo
14. Kevin Love
15. Blake Griffin


Rondo isn't a top 15 player. No way. I think he is top 25-30, but his shot is jacked, he can't hit FT's, and has a portion of his game that is a complete liability, more so than others. There is not a big enough sample size this season. Remember last year, after 20 games, the Rondo lovers were saying he may break all sorts of assist records? He was very pedestrian the last half of the season. Lets get a bunch of games behind us before we move him up.

Iman>mj
12-28-2011, 09:48 PM
Love is nothing but a stat padder, hes slow, undersized, and cant play d. A solid player yes but lmfao at people calling him a top 20 player let alone top 10, love will never be on an elite team because he cant play defense. Hes a better troy murphy at best but smaller and a worse defender.

John Walls Era
12-28-2011, 09:52 PM
Rebounding translate almost anywhere, same with shooting however the difference is that he will get less touches, but also less focus by defenses. All things being equal, he probably wouldn't get as many points when hes not the 1st option. Tough to say tbh, maybe an 18 and 14 guy as a second option.

Hes an all star, but I refuse to put him in the elite category since he doesn't win (not completely his fault), but you would think that getting 20+ and 15 would result to some wins.

PS: For the record, I would take Griffin over him based on selling tickets and potential, but Love is a top 5 PF.

John Walls Era
12-28-2011, 09:54 PM
LeBron
Dwight
Wade
Paul
Durant
Dirk
Kobe
Rose
Gasol
Deron
Amare
Melo
Bosh
Love
Westbrook

Pretty much it without flipping over and really looking.

:speechless: I thought you hate Bosh. You didn't even have him in your top 5 PFs in the league.

Correct list though.

Iman>mj
12-28-2011, 09:55 PM
Btw not getting plays drawn up for you is NOT a good thing, hes not someone u can hand the ball to and expect a bucket that is why he will never be a key piece on a good team.

iliketurtles24
12-28-2011, 09:59 PM
Btw not getting plays drawn up for you is NOT a good thing, hes not someone u can hand the ball to and expect a bucket that is why he will never be a key piece on a good team.

Not everybody in the league can be lebron, or kobe. He is the best at what he does imo. Im not sold if he can lead a team to a championship as the #1, but def a colse #2 and a huge part of the team. If you want stats look at previous pages, there have been a landslide of stats helpin loves case. Haters dont put any stats in their posts, at all.

Iodine
12-28-2011, 10:02 PM
Btw not getting plays drawn up for you is NOT a good thing, hes not someone u can hand the ball to and expect a bucket that is why he will never be a key piece on a good team.

You can't use correct grammar or make logical and conclusive arguments

http://images.cheezburger.com/completestore/2009/8/20/128952781397041614.jpg

Iman>mj
12-28-2011, 10:05 PM
You can't use correct grammar or make logical and conclusive arguments

http://images.cheezburger.com/completestore/2009/8/20/128952781397041614.jpg

Lmfao u can go get a life now hahaha.

Iman>mj
12-28-2011, 10:08 PM
Not everybody in the league can be lebron, or kobe. He is the best at what he does imo. Im not sold if he can lead a team to a championship as the #1, but def a colse #2 and a huge part of the team. If you want stats look at previous pages, there have been a landslide of stats helpin loves case. Haters dont put any stats in their posts, at all.

Best rebounder... Sure why not love is a great rebounder, but hes not a post presence offensively, and one of the worst defenders i have ever seen. Solid player but hes nothing more than a role player on an elite team.

Hawkeye15
12-28-2011, 11:03 PM
:speechless: I thought you hate Bosh. You didn't even have him in your top 5 PFs in the league.

Correct list though.

I have zip opinion of Bosh. But he is still a top 15 player, though I think Love, and Griffin bump his this year.

Hawkeye15
12-28-2011, 11:06 PM
Btw not getting plays drawn up for you is NOT a good thing, hes not someone u can hand the ball to and expect a bucket that is why he will never be a key piece on a good team.

Great evaluation dude. Kevin McHale didn't have plays run for him.

The point is, Rambis had zip idea how to use him. Adelman will indeed run the ball through him, hence why they will be better, and Love's numbers will get even better. Love would make ANY team better. Any player who can get 20-15 without having a bunch of plays run for him will help any team on the planet.

But read into it how you like. Me? I prefer having a player who gets his in the flow, versus having to purposely run plays for him to get his points.

Hawkeye15
12-28-2011, 11:09 PM
Best rebounder... Sure why not love is a great rebounder, but hes not a post presence offensively, and one of the worst defenders i have ever seen. Solid player but hes nothing more than a role player on an elite team.

Dirk was labeled a terrible defender for years, due to his early struggles. Simple fans are slow to catch on. Its ok.

Love held his man to average PER, and they shot 41% on him. Why? He never lets you get deep post position, understands angles, knows how to drive players off to their lower percentage areas, and if you miss, the possession is over.

First player in history to go for 20-15-40-80. Draws fouls like a machine. Hits 3's like a guard.

Role player? hahahaha. Please.

Bruno
12-28-2011, 11:21 PM
Reputation. Bosh will not be ahead of him after this season. Which is why I think Love moves into top 10 range. I think he passes some guys that have been doing it a while.

maybe i'm a bit too high on love but i think he surpassed bosh last season.

Hawkeye15
12-28-2011, 11:23 PM
maybe i'm a bit too high on love but i think he surpassed bosh last season.

I do too, but I would have a hard time displaying such. I think he for sure seperates himself from the 3-4th tier PF's this year however.

Dirk
Gasol
Love

At the end of the year, that is your PF ranking, imho.

tr3ymill3r
12-29-2011, 12:27 AM
I don't think his numbers would slip if he were in a larger market or with a superstar, because of his 30 points over half of them are because of offensive rebound put backs. It's not as if he actually has plays run for him.

waveycrockett
12-29-2011, 12:32 AM
He's not an efficient scorer and he struggles ALOT against the teams with big front courts like the Lakers. He does nothing against LA. He is never going to be like a Dwight, Dirk or Gasol because he is just not big enough

Hawkeye15
12-29-2011, 12:34 AM
He's not an efficient scorer and he struggles ALOT against the teams with big front courts like the Lakers. He does nothing against LA. He is never going to be like a Dwight, Dirk or Gasol because he is just not big enough

He is not an efficient scorer? Before I bother educating you, please tell me why you think so.

There are a handful more teams than the Lakers btw.

Swashcuff
12-29-2011, 12:36 AM
Why on God's green earth is Kevin Love being called "undersized"? He's above average height for and weight for starting PFs. How is he undersized? :confused:

Raph12
12-29-2011, 12:55 AM
You are debating with me yet agreeing lol. Of course he won't set franchise records every night in FT's. But the guy would average 8 FTA a game on an elite team that had players that got in the penalty. He would still get his 3-4 putbacks, and on a great team, he would get 5-6 WIDE OPEN looks, and still average 17-19.

As for rebounds, yes, he will always be the best rebounder on the team in a landslide, unless he somehow ends up next to Dwight.

Sounds about right.

Bruno
12-29-2011, 12:59 AM
I do too, but I would have a hard time displaying such. I think he for sure seperates himself from the 3-4th tier PF's this year however.

You think? Love spanked Bosh in PER, TS%, WS and WS/48 last season, while solidifying himself as the leagues best rebounder. The funny thing about this comparison is their TS%. You'd think Bosh, as the third option who rarely faced a double team would be off the charts in efficiency, playing off James and Wade. But he wasn't. Love had a significantly higher TS% despite facing far more double teams/ more offensive responsibility.



Dirk
Gasol
Love

At the end of the year, that is your PF ranking, imho.

I think the top PF spot is up for grabs this year. It's only a matter of time before Dirk and Gasol join Duncan and KG.

Even if just for a one year rental, I'd trade Gasol for Love. Excluding age/future team building, I'd take Love over Gasol. He's a better rebounder, and can spread the floor and provide paint space for Bynum.

Not saying with certainty that I think Love is better than Gasol, but he's a perfect fit alongside Bynum. I wouldn't be surprise to see Love have better numbers than Gasol by years end, especially with those young legs in a condensed season.

Hawkeye15
12-29-2011, 01:08 AM
You think? Love spanked Bosh in PER, TS%, WS and WS/48 last season, while solidifying himself as the leagues best rebounder. The funny thing about this comparison is their TS%. You'd think Bosh, as the third option who rarely faced a double team would be off the charts in efficiency, playing off James and Wade. But he wasn't. Love had a significantly higher TS% despite facing far more double teams/ more offensive responsibility.




I think the top PF spot is up for grabs this year. It's only a matter of time before Dirk and Gasol join Duncan and KG.

Even if just for a one year rental, I'd trade Gasol for Love. Excluding age/future team building, I'd take Love over Gasol. He's a better rebounder, and can spread the floor and provide paint space for Bynum.

Not saying with certainty that I think Love is better than Gasol, but he's a perfect fit alongside Bynum. I wouldn't be surprise to see Love have better numbers than Gasol by years end, especially with those young legs in a condensed season.

I know, I know. But using pure stats is only going to get me so far.

Trust me, I think Love is totally undervalued. He is the ULTIMATE compliment to a star.

waveycrockett
12-29-2011, 01:10 AM
He is not an efficient scorer? Before I bother educating you, please tell me why you think so.

There are a handful more teams than the Lakers btw.

He is a career 46% shooter for a big man thats not efficient when you take into account he gets a ton of garbage buckets which inflates that. You can't run an offense thru him on the block and expect to have a good offense. He isn't a guy who can beat you with explosive athleticism like a Blake Griffin or Amar'e and he doesn't have elite size like a Dirk or Gasol to get off a good shot whenever. He isn't physical enough to get off whatever he wants inside like a Dwight or Bynum. On a championship team he is what Lamar Odom was to the Lakers. Not even a Batman or a Robin.

Bruno
12-29-2011, 01:12 AM
I know, I know. But using pure stats is only going to get me so far.

Trust me, I think Love is totally undervalued. He is the ULTIMATE compliment to a star.

haha, sounds like we've both been pushed a bit to the other side over the years ay Hawk?

i just have the benefit of shamelessly defending Love by the numbers without being called a homer.

Hawkeye15
12-29-2011, 01:13 AM
He is a career 46% shooter for a big man thats not efficient. You can't run an offense thru him on the block and expect to have a good offense. He isn't a guy who can beat you with explosive athleticism like a Blake Griffin or Amar'e and he doesn't have elite size like a Dirk or Gasol to get off a good shot whenever. He isn't physical enough to get whatever shot like a Dwight or Bynum. On a championship team he is what Lamar Odom was to the Lakers. Not even a Batman or a Robin.

http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/l/loveke01.html

If you don't understand it, let me know. Love shoots WAY over the league average in TS% (the actual measure of scoring efficiency), has an offensive rating off the charts, and was top 5 in win shares.

waveycrockett
12-29-2011, 01:14 AM
http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/l/loveke01.html

If you don't understand it, let me know. Love shoots WAY over the league average in TS% (the actual measure of scoring efficiency), has an offensive rating off the charts, and was top 5 in win shares.

His FG% is bloated because of a lot of garbage buckets he gets. He can hit 3's but that doesn't make him an efficient number 1 option on a championship or even a playoff team.

Bruno
12-29-2011, 01:18 AM
His FG% is bloated because of a lot of garbage buckets he gets. He can hit 3's but that doesn't make him an efficient number 1 option on a championship or even a playoff team.

you don't weight free throws made and free throw percentage when accounting for scoring efficiency?

you're looking through tunnel vision unless you account FG%, FT% and three point % collectively.

his TS% and point per field goal attempt are elite.

beasted86
12-29-2011, 01:19 AM
How many times do you think a legit superstar or top 50 player all time has a crazy statline like that and lose the game?

Not often. But it happens all the time with Love.

And before I get scolded for putting too heavy of a burden on Love, it's not me who is constantly comparing his numbers to the all-time greats and saying he's the greatest all time at such-and-such.

When Love starts winning, his stats will become more relevant.

Bruno
12-29-2011, 01:22 AM
How many times do you think a legit superstar or top 50 player all time has a crazy statline like that and lose the game?

Not often. But it happens all the time with Love.

And before I get scolded for putting too heavy of a burden on Love, it's not me who is constantly comparing his numbers to the all-time greats and saying he's the greatest all time at such-and-such.

When Love starts winning, his stats will become more relevant.

thats fine, but you're just kicking the can down the road. it's gona happen eventually.

waveycrockett
12-29-2011, 01:30 AM
When Love starts winning his stat line will go down because there will be better players for him to defer to. Offensively Kevin Love is a Lamar Odom on a bad team. A guy who is a great no.3/4 option. It's not hard to put up crazy statlines on bad teams Z-Bo has done it his entire career.

Bruno
12-29-2011, 01:42 AM
When Love starts winning his stat line will go down because there will be better players for him to defer to. Offensively Kevin Love is a Lamar Odom on a bad team. A guy who is a great no.3/4 option. It's not hard to put up crazy statlines on bad teams Z-Bo has done it his entire career.

those comparisons don't fly when you look at their statistics, especially their advanced statistics. Neither Odom or ZBO have ever put up numbers like Love did last season, even when they were top guns on lousy teams.

astrosmaniac
12-29-2011, 01:54 AM
He is a career 46% shooter for a big man thats not efficient when you take into account he gets a ton of garbage buckets which inflates that. You can't run an offense thru him on the block and expect to have a good offense. He isn't a guy who can beat you with explosive athleticism like a Blake Griffin or Amar'e and he doesn't have elite size like a Dirk or Gasol to get off a good shot whenever. He isn't physical enough to get off whatever he wants inside like a Dwight or Bynum. On a championship team he is what Lamar Odom was to the Lakers. Not even a Batman or a Robin.

TS% and PER are the best ways to look at efficient offense.

lets put this in perspective. Kevin love posted a TS% of .593 and a PER of 24.3

kevin martin, considered one of the most efficient scorers in the game, posted a TS% of .601 and a PER of 21.4

those people you said he's not as good as?
Griffin: .549 and 21.9 respectively
Amare: .565 and 22.7 respectively
Dirk: .612 and 23.4 respectively
Gasol: .589 and 23.3 respectively
Dwight: .616 and 26.0 respectively
Bynum: .606 and and 21.1 respectively

only 1 player beats him in both categories, and that's dwight, who never takes a shot from outside the paint. face it, love is just as efficient as, or more efficient than, any big in the league, with maybe the exception of dwight howard (who many consider a top 3 player in the nba)

VikesTwinsWolve
12-29-2011, 02:07 AM
i find it interesting that nobody mentions that if love were next to another dominant rebounder, their numbers would dip hardcore.

hi mom!!!

waveycrockett
12-29-2011, 02:10 AM
TS% and PER are the best ways to look at efficient offense.

lets put this in perspective. Kevin love posted a TS% of .593 and a PER of 24.3

kevin martin, considered one of the most efficient scorers in the game, posted a TS% of .601 and a PER of 21.4

those people you said he's not as good as?
Griffin: .549 and 21.9 respectively
Amare: .565 and 22.7 respectively
Dirk: .612 and 23.4 respectively
Gasol: .589 and 23.3 respectively
Dwight: .616 and 26.0 respectively
Bynum: .606 and and 21.1 respectively

only 1 player beats him in both categories, and that's dwight, who never takes a shot from outside the paint. face it, love is just as efficient as, or more efficient than, any big in the league, with maybe the exception of dwight howard (who many consider a top 3 player in the nba)


Can he do that as the no.1 option or even the number 2 option on a championship team? I HIGHLY doubt it. He's a very good player, versatile but he's like a MUCH less athletic/strong Karl Malone and even Malone couldn't win one.

astrosmaniac
12-29-2011, 02:29 AM
Can he do that as the no.1 option or even the number 2 option on a championship team? I HIGHLY doubt it. He's a very good player, versatile but he's like a MUCH less athletic/strong Karl Malone and even Malone couldn't win one.

why not? if he's the best offensive player on the floor, he's who the D will focus on. If they already key in on him now and he's this efficient, he would be even MORE efficient if he had another legit talent to take pressure off him. his per game stats would take a hit in terms of scoring (which is what every love supporter in this thread has said), but if he had better teammates, it would take away some of the pressure that the D puts on him, and would let him be more efficient

SportsAndrew25
12-29-2011, 02:51 AM
He would still be a star.

NetsPaint
12-29-2011, 02:55 AM
When I see Love rebound, it's phenomenal. It's a fact he's that good at rebounding. He tears them down like an actual wolf eating away at his meal.

Sota4Ever
12-29-2011, 03:51 AM
Love>>>>Griffin

Hellcrooner
12-29-2011, 05:22 AM
How many times do you think a legit superstar or top 50 player all time has a crazy statline like that and lose the game?

Not often. But it happens all the time with Love.

And before I get scolded for putting too heavy of a burden on Love, it's not me who is constantly comparing his numbers to the all-time greats and saying he's the greatest all time at such-and-such.

When Love starts winning, his stats will become more relevant.

Michael Jordan used to do that like crazy early in his career, put a monster INDIVIDUAL show and bulls lose the game.

Including his "god has dressed like Mj tonight" 63 playoof game in Boston
THE LOST, THEY LOST ; THEY LOST; THEY LOST; THEY LOST; THEY LOST

The Final Boss
12-29-2011, 05:43 AM
He's good but his work ethic sets him apart and brings his stats up. If the rest of the you-know-what's in the NBA weren't lazy on the defensive end they'd all be better as well.

HouRealCoach
12-29-2011, 06:26 AM
NO ONE in the nba can put up the numbers he put up

KnicksorBust
12-29-2011, 10:34 AM
TS% and PER are the best ways to look at efficient offense.

lets put this in perspective. Kevin love posted a TS% of .593 and a PER of 24.3

kevin martin, considered one of the most efficient scorers in the game, posted a TS% of .601 and a PER of 21.4

those people you said he's not as good as?
Griffin: .549 and 21.9 respectively
Amare: .565 and 22.7 respectively
Dirk: .612 and 23.4 respectively
Gasol: .589 and 23.3 respectively
Dwight: .616 and 26.0 respectively
Bynum: .606 and and 21.1 respectively

only 1 player beats him in both categories, and that's dwight, who never takes a shot from outside the paint. face it, love is just as efficient as, or more efficient than, any big in the league, with maybe the exception of dwight howard (who many consider a top 3 player in the nba)

I like how you felt the need to add "respectively" after each player's stats.

Anyway, nice job. I think overall the NBA Forum is starting to catch up on advanced stats but we'll never get everybody. I agree Love is one of the most effecient scorers and top 2 rebounders in the league. He can handle being a #2 option on an elite team. I don't think I'll ever buy him as a #1 option though.

Iodine
12-29-2011, 02:34 PM
TS% and PER are the best ways to look at efficient offense.

lets put this in perspective. Kevin love posted a TS% of .593 and a PER of 24.3

kevin martin, considered one of the most efficient scorers in the game, posted a TS% of .601 and a PER of 21.4

those people you said he's not as good as?
Griffin: .549 and 21.9 respectively
Amare: .565 and 22.7 respectively
Dirk: .612 and 23.4 respectively
Gasol: .589 and 23.3 respectively
Dwight: .616 and 26.0 respectively
Bynum: .606 and and 21.1 respectively

only 1 player beats him in both categories, and that's dwight, who never takes a shot from outside the paint. face it, love is just as efficient as, or more efficient than, any big in the league, with maybe the exception of dwight howard (who many consider a top 3 player in the nba)

So polite <3

Hawkeye15
12-29-2011, 03:00 PM
His FG% is bloated because of a lot of garbage buckets he gets. He can hit 3's but that doesn't make him an efficient number 1 option on a championship or even a playoff team.

you do realize that using FG% to measure efficiency is incorrect, right?

Why is Love super efficient? Because he also draws a ton of fouls, gets to the line, and makes them. He hits 3's at over 40%. His TS% is way over league average (the effective way to measure scoring efficiency) and very elite for a big, his Offrtg is elite, and is offensive win shares were top 4 in the NBA.

He is an EXTREMELY efficient offensive player. In fact, that is the first thing scouts and experts bring up when speaking of his offense. He scores 20 a night when having 2 plays run for him.

I have never claimed he is a #1 scorer on a championship team. He hasn't shown that yet. But I can tell you this, if I had to choose who I would want getting more possessions between Love, or some of the high profile scorers in the NBA who need play, after play, after play, run for them to hover around average TS%, give me Love.

Hawkeye15
12-29-2011, 03:05 PM
Can he do that as the no.1 option or even the number 2 option on a championship team? I HIGHLY doubt it. He's a very good player, versatile but he's like a MUCH less athletic/strong Karl Malone and even Malone couldn't win one.

Well, now you are speculating. What did Pau do as a #1 option? He has been the best #1b/2 option in the NBA the last 4 years, and nobody cared about his 19-9 when his team was roadkill in the 1st round, and he had plenty of talent around him at the time. Love finally has some talent, and a real coach around him. Lets see what the next 2 years bring before we march out and assume a 23 year old who just matched statistical records not seen in 28 years, and set new ones, can or can not do with some help and a coach who has been around.

Randy Whittman and Kurt Rambis have been his coach's. The first 2 years he was there, Al Jefferson was his best teammate. Last season a toss up between Beasley and Ridnour. Combine those pathetic coach's with that pathetic help, and you only have 3-4 players who can get 24-25 wins on those rosters.

Iodine
12-29-2011, 03:07 PM
You know who else couldnt be a #1 scorer on a championship team?

Kevin McHale, Scottie Pippen, David Robinson, and Elgin Baylor

valade16
12-29-2011, 03:32 PM
Well, now you are speculating. What did Pau do as a #1 option? He has been the best #1b/2 option in the NBA the last 4 years, and nobody cared about his 19-9 when his team was roadkill in the 1st round, and he had plenty of talent around him at the time. Love finally has some talent, and a real coach around him. Lets see what the next 2 years bring before we march out and assume a 23 year old who just matched statistical records not seen in 28 years, and set new ones, can or can not do with some help and a coach who has been around.

Randy Whittman and Kurt Rambis have been his coach's. The first 2 years he was there, Al Jefferson was his best teammate. Last season a toss up between Beasley and Ridnour. Combine those pathetic coach's with that pathetic help, and you only have 3-4 players who can get 24-25 wins on those rosters.

a 1st Round exit was LIGHT years ahead of where the T-Wolves were last year...

Your assuming that there is only one level of suck, which is incorrect. To quote brad pitt, there's the top, everybody else, 50 feet of dirt, and then us.

The T-wolves are currently in the under 50 feet of dirt category. Until they get out of that category, don't make fun of teams that have...

Iodine
12-29-2011, 03:34 PM
a 1st Round exit was LIGHT years ahead of where the T-Wolves were last year...

Your assuming that there is only one level of suck, which is incorrect. To quote brad pitt, there's the top, everybody else, 50 feet of dirt, and then us.

The T-wolves are currently in the under 50 feet of dirt category. Until they get out of that category, don't make fun of teams that have...

lol

astrosmaniac
12-29-2011, 03:38 PM
I like how you felt the need to add "respectively" after each player's stats.

Anyway, nice job. I think overall the NBA Forum is starting to catch up on advanced stats but we'll never get everybody. I agree Love is one of the most effecient scorers and top 2 rebounders in the league. He can handle being a #2 option on an elite team. I don't think I'll ever buy him as a #1 option though.


So polite <3

just call me old fashioned. mama didn't raise no fool ;)

tredigs
12-29-2011, 03:43 PM
You know who else couldnt be a #1 scorer on a championship team?

Kevin McHale, Scottie Pippen, David Robinson, and Elgin Baylor

YEAHH BUT, three of those four are All-Time Great defenders and won their ships on amazing defensive teams, while the last one (Baylor) was a sub par defender and lost to ZA ALLMIGHTY C'S in the championship every year. He didn't even play that year the Lakers finally won with Wilt.

Point being, I think Love's a great player and his rebounding alone is a decent enough asset on D, but unless you're a point (and especially if you're a big), that defense is what separates the championship caliber superstars from simply being among the elite in my not so humble opinion (Melo, Amare, Love, etc).

Tony_Starks
12-29-2011, 04:00 PM
On a legitimate team his numbers would come down to earth but he still would be very solid. I don't think allstar solid, but still solid. Right now he's like a college kid playing on a JV team. Basically David Lee on the Knicks but on steriods.......

Hawkeye15
12-29-2011, 04:04 PM
a 1st Round exit was LIGHT years ahead of where the T-Wolves were last year...

Your assuming that there is only one level of suck, which is incorrect. To quote brad pitt, there's the top, everybody else, 50 feet of dirt, and then us.

The T-wolves are currently in the under 50 feet of dirt category. Until they get out of that category, don't make fun of teams that have...

I also said Gasol actually had talent. ROY, and 6th man of the year Mike Miller. Eddie Jones was on the back end of his prime. Shane Battier was in his early prime. Bobby Jackson was a sparkplug off the bench. Tsakalidas was a very efficient role player in spots. Damon Stoudemire was on that team.

The talent level isn't even close.

I am making fun of a team? Ok man. My point was, a guy who is clearly #1b/2 on a championship team also had to deal with the process. And I think Love has the potential to be a better player than Gasol anyways.

Hawkeye15
12-29-2011, 04:09 PM
YEAHH BUT, three of those four are All-Time Great defenders and won their ships on amazing defensive teams, while the last one (Baylor) was a sub par defender and lost to ZA ALLMIGHTY C'S in the championship every year. He didn't even play that year the Lakers finally won with Wilt.

Point being, I think Love's a great player and his rebounding alone is a decent enough asset on D, but unless you're a point (and especially if you're a big), that defense is what separates the championship caliber superstars from simply being among the elite in my not so humble opinion (Melo, Amare, Love, etc).

Not that Love will ever be mistaken for a 1st team all defense, but fans underrate his defense honestly. Held his opponent to 41% shooting, because he doesn't allow deep post position, and runs players to angles where their attempts are lower percentages. If you miss, possession is over. Sure he won't block a lot of shots, but you can't physically bury him, he puts you in areas where your success rate drops, and as I said, if you miss, you now need to get back on defense. Holds his counterpart to average PER, and actually holds centers to a 12.6 PER.

Remember too, that Minny's guards have been SO bad defensively, the only time Love sees guards is when they are coming 100 mph down the pipe. Nobody in the NBA can stop that.

Hawkeye15
12-29-2011, 04:10 PM
reminds me of how fans have crapped on Dirk's defense for 10 years. Um, it really hasn't been bad for the last 5-6. You get that tag early, and its tough to shake for fans who don't watch the player much.

Iodine
12-29-2011, 04:18 PM
reminds me of how fans have crapped on Dirk's defense for 10 years. Um, it really hasn't been bad for the last 5-6. You get that tag early, and its tough to shake for fans who don't watch the player much.

Pretty much

Hawkeye15
12-29-2011, 04:19 PM
I can't believe a David Lee comparison was thrown out there. Lee couldn't carry Love's jockstrap at this point.

beasted86
12-29-2011, 07:48 PM
Michael Jordan used to do that like crazy early in his career, put a monster INDIVIDUAL show and bulls lose the game.

Including his "god has dressed like Mj tonight" 63 playoof game in Boston
THE LOST, THEY LOST ; THEY LOST; THEY LOST; THEY LOST; THEY LOST

Might lose the one game, as can happen to anybody... but won a fair amount of them as he never missed the playoffs as a Chicago Bull.

Anyway, I'm not hating on Love, he is a solid player, and his stats are impressive, but they aren't very relevant in terms of all-time comparisons because regardless of what he puts up, it has very little impact on his team winning games.

His team now has more than enough talent to win at least near .500, and has an adequate coach. If the Wolves can't at least make a 9th seed or better push, it will be nearly impossible for Love to shake the stigma of having "impact-less stats" even if he actually continues on this 26-16 statline for the rest of the season.

Iman>mj
12-29-2011, 09:46 PM
He is a career 46% shooter for a big man thats not efficient when you take into account he gets a ton of garbage buckets which inflates that. You can't run an offense thru him on the block and expect to have a good offense. He isn't a guy who can beat you with explosive athleticism like a Blake Griffin or Amar'e and he doesn't have elite size like a Dirk or Gasol to get off a good shot whenever. He isn't physical enough to get off whatever he wants inside like a Dwight or Bynum. On a championship team he is what Lamar Odom was to the Lakers. Not even a Batman or a Robin.

Finally a true bball fan that watches the game and makes educated decisions, not just a fantasy bball nerd that thinks stats define a player.

Wrigheyes4MVP
12-29-2011, 09:56 PM
I think he would be a good number 2 option on a contending team.

His stats would go down a bit, but he still has enough offensive talent to be a threat if he had an MVP caliber player playing alongside him.

Also, his rebounding skills are legit.

SlimKid
12-29-2011, 10:03 PM
Finally a true bball fan that watches the game and makes educated decisions, not just a fantasy bball nerd that thinks stats define a player.

So someone who critiques Love because he's not as athletic as Amare or Griffen and compares him to Lamar Odom is good in your book?? Don't get me wrong, I appreciate Odom's game, but that comparison is laughable.. At least this thread is 75% in favor of Loves game, a year ago not sure if that would be the case

Hawkeye15
12-29-2011, 10:08 PM
Finally a true bball fan that watches the game and makes educated decisions, not just a fantasy bball nerd that thinks stats define a player.

You are 8 posts in, so forgive me for not really caring what your opinion is on Love, but how many times have you watched him? And be honest.

Bruno
12-29-2011, 10:44 PM
You are 8 posts in, so forgive me for not really caring what your opinion is on Love, but how many times have you watched him? And be honest.

he's on the wolves dude. none of these people have watched him play. that's why their opinions are as they are. he's not blake or some other flashy young player so nobody sees highlight reels on ESPN. typical and expected.

Iodine
12-29-2011, 10:48 PM
Finally a true bball fan that watches the game and makes educated decisions, not just a fantasy bball nerd that thinks stats define a player.

Cool story bro

xxplayerxx23
12-29-2011, 10:59 PM
Finally a true bball fan that watches the game and makes educated decisions, not just a fantasy bball nerd that thinks stats define a player.

Oh god people hate knick fans now imagen when you get to 13+ posts . We are going to have to hear about this guys name forever thanks a lot pal :mad:

beasted86
12-29-2011, 11:04 PM
Oh god people hate knick fans now imagen when you get to 13+ posts . We are going to have to hear about this guys name forever thanks a lot pal :mad:

What? Iman is definitely better than Mike James. :shrug:

Iodine
12-29-2011, 11:07 PM
As one of the people who brought the mike james meme into existence, can we just let that **** die?

Bruno
12-29-2011, 11:11 PM
As one of the people who brought the mike james meme into existence, can we just let that **** die?

:laugh2:

Iman>mj
12-29-2011, 11:23 PM
I have watched love enough to make a very educated opinion of him, he looks the sizeof a 3 man, doesnt play d and isnt someone u can play througj. Great rebounder and smart player but not close to a top player.

Iodine
12-29-2011, 11:25 PM
Yet you have not had enough experience with english to master the nuances I see

astrosmaniac
12-29-2011, 11:27 PM
As one of the people who brought the mike james meme into existence, can we just let that **** die?

It'll never die as long as my sig still has this link

Iman>mj
12-29-2011, 11:27 PM
Yet you have not had enough experience with english to master the nuances I see

Hahahur sad kid... Go outside somedayy... Hahah i post and the next second u reply lmfao. Get a life.

Green_Monster
12-29-2011, 11:30 PM
Yet you have not had enough experience with english to master the nuances I see

i thinc he didd pritty gode?!.

Hawkeye15
12-29-2011, 11:33 PM
I have watched love enough to make a very educated opinion of him, he looks the sizeof a 3 man, doesnt play d and isnt someone u can play througj. Great rebounder and smart player but not close to a top player.

you ducked the question. How many times have you seen him play?

mngopher35
12-29-2011, 11:36 PM
My guess is hes seen us play 5 games, probably thinks beasley is the best player on the wolves....

Hawkeye15
12-29-2011, 11:40 PM
My guess is hes seen us play 5 games, probably thinks beasley is the best player on the wolves....

meh, I was only asking, not that I care. Look at the user name.

Simply put, anyone who wouldn't cream their pants to have Love on their team never watches them, nor understands how to properly evaluate stats.

mngopher35
12-29-2011, 11:40 PM
I honestly think love might be the best second option a star could ask for. He doesnt need plays to get his points, he will take the easy baskets and get some putbacks. He will eat up all the rebounds and outlet as good as any big in the league. His defense is probably around average. His numbers would go down of course, but his efficiency woul probably go up. 20 and 12 player on high efficiency on a good-great team.

Iman>mj
12-29-2011, 11:41 PM
you ducked the question. How many times have you seen him play?

20-30 all i do when i get home is watch hoops.

Hawkeye15
12-29-2011, 11:43 PM
20-30 all i do when i get home is watch hoops.

than you need to re-learn the game bro.

The very fact that you don't think Love is a great player after watching him 20-30 times is alarming.

Iman>mj
12-29-2011, 11:44 PM
I honestly think love might be the best second option a star could ask for. He doesnt need plays to get his points, he will take the easy baskets and get some putbacks. He will eat up all the rebounds and outlet as good as any big in the league. His defense is probably around average. His numbers would go down of course, but his efficiency woul probably go up. 20 and 12 player on high efficiency on a good-great team.

Ok so henever that star is off i guess hes screwed because love cant carry the load.

Iman>mj
12-29-2011, 11:46 PM
than you need to re-learn the game bro.

The very fact that you don't think Love is a great player after watching him 20-30 times is alarming.

Is just my oopinion i want my star player to be someone that i can give the rock to and expect a bucket...

Iman>mj
12-29-2011, 11:48 PM
All these advanced stats dont mean crap when u need 1 point to win a game, adv stats go out the window in a real game btw if love could play d my opinion of him would be totally different.

Hawkeye15
12-29-2011, 11:48 PM
Is just my oopinion i want my star player to be someone that i can give the rock to and expect a bucket...

Of course its your opinion, I don't mean to say it isn't. But I like my best player to get points in the flow of the offense, and score with elite efficiency, and I don't mind if they are also the best rebounder in the NBA.

But that is me.

mngopher35
12-29-2011, 11:53 PM
All these advanced stats dont mean crap when u need 1 point to win a game, adv stats go out the window in a real game btw if love could play d my opinion of him would be totally different.

I agree that love is not the ideal candidate to have make that final shot, thats why i believe he as an ideal second option to a superstar. Also as hawk has pointed out his D is not horrible. He can hold his own against the bigs in this league. If you watch the wolves alot you should notice he is almost never the one missing a rotation or letting his man score at will.

Iman>mj
12-29-2011, 11:55 PM
How many games have yall lost by 3 or less wishing u had sOmeone to help u close. Yall would probably be a 500 team if yall could close.

Hawkeye15
12-29-2011, 11:55 PM
again, I still find it comical that Love gets such a bad rep at this point defensively. He held his man to 41% shooting last year, holds his opponent to average PER, and if you miss, possession over.

Hawkeye15
12-29-2011, 11:56 PM
How many games have yall lost by 3 or less wishing u had sOmeone to help u close. Yall would probably be a 500 team if yall could close.

What help did Love have? Please, I would love to read your evaluation of the Wolves roster the last 2 years....

Iman>mj
12-30-2011, 12:02 AM
What help did Love have? Please, I would love to read your evaluation of the Wolves roster the last 2 years....

Never said he had any help just said that if he was someone like pau, bosh, amare that u could run a team through yall would have been a .500 team.

Hawkeye15
12-30-2011, 12:03 AM
Never said he had any help just said that if he was someone like pau, bosh, amare that u could run a team through yall would have been a .500 team.

Well, you just moved into speculation world, which destroys arguments. Please tell me how any of those guys you listed leads a team with Luke Ridnour as their 2nd best player to 41 wins.

Iman>mj
12-30-2011, 12:03 AM
Every minny game was a 1, 2 pt loss u guys can hang eith teams but cant close... Im sorry but a top player helps the tean win some of those games.

Hawkeye15
12-30-2011, 12:08 AM
Every minny game was a 1, 2 pt loss u guys can hang eith teams but cant close... Im sorry but a top player helps the tean win some of those games.

well, thanks for the Wolves eval, but I will stick with my own evaluation. The only reason the Wolves were within that range was because of Love.

Now, you can continue to look as if you don't understand how to properly evaluate Love. That is fine. But he is one of the most efficient scorers in the NBA, the best rebounder, and just matched and set records not seen in 28 years or forever.

Question him all you want. He continues to produce. He has some talent around him finally, and a coach that isn't easily the worst in the NBA (Whittman and Rambis, really? Ugh). May want to hold you judgement for the time being.

Iman>mj
12-30-2011, 12:13 AM
I hope loves proves me wrong and starts winning. Hes a hard working player and a smart player just lacks size and athletic ability.

naps
12-30-2011, 12:17 AM
He's supremely underrated if you think of the hype Griffin gets.

Hawkeye15
12-30-2011, 12:19 AM
I hope loves proves me wrong and starts winning. Hes a hard working player and a smart player just lacks size and athletic ability.

teams win, not players. But sure, every Wolves fan, including myself, expects more wins this year, percentage wise. Better coach, Rubio/Williams, a year of maturity, JJ Barea, yes, we expect a 28+ win season.

Iman>mj
12-30-2011, 12:36 AM
teams win, not players. But sure, every Wolves fan, including myself, expects more wins this year, percentage wise. Better coach, Rubio/Williams, a year of maturity, JJ Barea, yes, we expect a 28+ win season.

Naw in bball elite players can win by themselves... Dwade, kobe, lebron, tmac all have lead their teams to the playoffs with worst teams than the wolves.

Iman>mj
12-30-2011, 12:38 AM
Give d12 that minny team and he does some damage.

Hawkeye15
12-30-2011, 12:41 AM
Naw in bball elite players can win by themselves... Dwade, kobe, lebron, tmac all have lead their teams to the playoffs with worst teams than the wolves.

And who is saying Love is on par with those guys? Btw, every player you mentioned had a much stronger roster than Love has had, though I am not putting him on their level.

When your head coach is Randy Whittman or Kurt Rambis, and your 2nd best player is a toss up between Beasley and Ridnour, you are screwed.

astrosmaniac
12-30-2011, 01:34 AM
Give d12 that minny team and he does some damage.

no he doesnt. every team would double him the second he gets the ball, something they cant do in orlando cause of all those dead eye 3 point shooters.

Tony_Starks
12-30-2011, 03:41 AM
I can't believe a David Lee comparison was thrown out there. Lee couldn't carry Love's jockstrap at this point.


Lee put up allstar numbers on a garbage team which didn't translate into wins. A Lee comparison is completely appropriate......