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View Full Version : How Much Would Durant Average Without Westbrook?



MetroMan
12-27-2011, 01:28 PM
When ever I watch Durant play it looks so easy for him to score. Even when it looks like he is having a bad game he still has 28.

I personally like westbrook but I think he should be traded with Ibaka for Howard. Thats my personally opinion.

Westbrook gets off 20 shots a night according to last year stats.

Imagine what Durant can do with out him

I think Durant can get 35

ManRam
12-27-2011, 01:29 PM
I honestly don't know if it would be easier for him without Russy....

NetsPaint
12-27-2011, 01:38 PM
In the Playoffs this year Durant was being stopped to the point he couldn't get the ball a bunch of times, which is why Westbrook took a lot of bad shots, not because Westbrook was a ballhog.

A lot of people are high on Harden so who knows if that would be a good/better fit for Durant in the starting line-up. If you're asking strictly on Durant doing it on his own, then he has be able to create his own shot consistently, which might include good ball handling to attack the basket consistently.

YoungOne
12-27-2011, 01:53 PM
without him at all or with another good point guard instead??

Spiderman 1nner
12-27-2011, 02:02 PM
i think he would average close to 40 points a game without westbrook taking so many shots. He's not a great player without the ball, but the second the ball gets into his hands, there's nobody stopping him. He's 6'9 with a wingspan that puts him around 7'3 and he can shoot the ball better than anyone in the league. Give him a true point guard and that team is going places. It's not a knock on Westbrook, he's still a very good player, but he's more of a 2 guard than a point, he's a shoot first player when he should be looking to pass first, especially with KD and Harden.

poleandreel
12-27-2011, 02:18 PM
In the Playoffs this year Durant was being stopped to the point he couldn't get the ball a bunch of times, which is why Westbrook took a lot of bad shots, not because Westbrook was a ballhog.

A lot of people are high on Harden so who knows if that would be a good/better fit for Durant in the starting line-up. If you're asking strictly on Durant doing it on his own, then he has be able to create his own shot consistently, which might include good ball handling to attack the basket consistently.

:clap::clap::clap:

Thank you sir for being intelligent. Without westbrook durant would average slightly more points (33-35) but would be horrible inefficient. Westy sets him up way more than you guys like to think.

Durant struggles to create for himself.

ManRam
12-27-2011, 02:20 PM
Russy gets unfair criticism after last year's playoffs. He's a superstar, and the Thunder are their best when BOTH he and Durant are scoring a lot. It's harder to stop two stars than it is to stop one.

Even more so than just that, Durant is best off the ball and when the defense is focusing on others. He's not the creator that other superstars are. He needs help out there, and Russy is that.

To whoever said 40 points...you are flat out wrong. If he did average 40 points, that team would lose 10+ more games...

-Kobe24-TJ19-
12-27-2011, 02:27 PM
he would score more points but the team would be worse.

I say 32-24 ppg, depends who would take westbrooks place.

Slimsim
12-27-2011, 02:30 PM
More points less efficient

chuckdaily85
12-27-2011, 02:31 PM
I agree> Russell Westbrook is not the problem...When the Thunder won 50+ games nobody was talking bout Russy not a good PG or any of that. He had a bad series and all of a sudden he is the problem, knock it off. The Thunder problem is they have nobody in the post that can create and for themselves. I honestly think they should have went after David West and brought Ibaka off the bench, or tried to get in on that LO deal.

Chronz
12-27-2011, 02:36 PM
No joke that kid in pink is awesome, I wish fans got that pumped for a basketball play

YoungOne
12-27-2011, 02:39 PM
thunder should try to trade for Al Jefferson or someone similar

beasted86
12-27-2011, 02:41 PM
When ever I watch Durant play it looks so easy for him to score. Even when it looks like he is having a bad game he still has 28.

I personally like westbrook but I think he should be traded with Ibaka for Howard. Thats my personally opinion.

Westbrook gets off 20 shots a night according to last year stats.

Imagine what Durant can do with out him

I think Durant can get 35


Durant + Westbrook Currently = 53 PPG
Durant - Westbrook = 35 PPG

53 > 35.

Aside from that, you idea doesn't make sense salary wise and the Thunder would have to add in a couple critical role players just to match money wise.

The Thunder clearly need a trade for a post scorer, but this one doesn't make sense.

nickdymez
12-27-2011, 02:47 PM
he would score more points but the team would be worse.

I say 32-24 ppg, depends who would take westbrooks place.

Whats this mean?

--23--
12-27-2011, 02:48 PM
Russy gets unfair criticism after last year's playoffs. He's a superstar, and the Thunder are their best when BOTH he and Durant are scoring a lot. It's harder to stop two stars than it is to stop one.

Even more so than just that, Durant is best off the ball and when the defense is focusing on others. He's not the creator that other superstars are. He needs help out there, and Russy is that.

To whoever said 40 points...you are flat out wrong. If he did average 40 points, that team would lose 10+ more games...


In the Playoffs this year Durant was being stopped to the point he couldn't get the ball a bunch of times, which is why Westbrook took a lot of bad shots, not because Westbrook was a ballhog.

A lot of people are high on Harden so who knows if that would be a good/better fit for Durant in the starting line-up. If you're asking strictly on Durant doing it on his own, then he has be able to create his own shot consistently, which might include good ball handling to attack the basket consistently.

+100000, :clap::clap::clap:

smith&wesson
12-27-2011, 02:51 PM
Sure durant could have all these great fantacy numbers if he didnt have westbrook. but at the same time he wouldnt be competing either so who cares what his numbers would look like with out the 2nd best player on his team.

AtlantaFalcons
12-27-2011, 02:53 PM
If you are just simply taking out Westbrook and starting Maynor then Durant will have to average at least 35ppg ... nobody on that team will score more than 15ppg unless Harden finally steps up. Obviously he wouldn't be anywhere near as efficient. Never understood all the hate on Westbrook though, the kid has all the ability to be a superstar and is one of is not the most athletic point guards in the game and hes what 23? ..

Baller1
12-27-2011, 02:54 PM
Westbrook is not going anywhere. You people need to get that through your heads... Presti could have easily shipped him off somewhere already but he hasn't because he doesn't want to. Westbrook is staying in OKC, and I'm fine with that.

AtlantaFalcons
12-27-2011, 02:55 PM
You take Westbrook off that team and to some extent Durant would have a Kobe 05-06 type season .. (yes i know that Ibaka > Kwame, Harden > Smush parker, just trying to make a point)

-Kobe24-TJ19-
12-27-2011, 02:55 PM
Whats this mean?

thats a typo lmao:p

ThuglifeJ
12-27-2011, 02:56 PM
well i also think that Durant would score more with a Point Guard instead of a self-focused undersized shooting guard.

Watching Westbrook play is sickening, especially last year in the playoffs oh my god and to me westbrook displays everything bad of what the NBA has become the past few years.
Point guards have turned to midget shooting guards..

harlequin018
12-27-2011, 03:36 PM
I'm gonna do something crazy and say that Russy and KD aren't a bad fit together. Woa woa, hear me out.

While neither guy is a distributor, both guys create a mismatch requiring a double team. They are both clever enough to dish out if they can't find a shot so getting others involved in the offense is not a problem. Westbrook is not Chris Paul of course, and doesn't look to a teammate first, but his mentality matches up well with the game that Durant brings. His approach is penetration and athleticism. Although he's not a good outside shooter, he can get to the rim and the line at will. Conversely, Durant, although athletic, hasn't embraced the attacking the rim philosophy, which is fine because he has range to the moon. This gives them that inside out game that works so well. If you double Durant, Westbrook gets to the rim and gets an easy layup. If you collapse on the PGs drive, then Durant gets to shoot rainbows undefended (I'm a huge KD fan and will say that Durant's shot is undefendable anyway). Without someone as talented as Russ Wesbrook, Durant could score 40+ a game easily because he would have to. Of course that will happen at the expense of his own efficiency and the success of his team.

Luca68
12-27-2011, 03:38 PM
40 ppg

ManRam
12-27-2011, 03:39 PM
It's amazing how disillusioned people are about Westbrook. "self-focused undersized shooting guard"???? Really?

People are letting a few games totally cloud their ability to reason. Westbrook was basically an identical to Rose last year statistically. He's a star, a great scorer, and a great compliment to Durant. Sure, it didn't work out great in the Western Conference FINALS, but you live and you learn.

It seems some people here think he's a fringe top-50 player or something...crazy.

2doors
12-27-2011, 03:49 PM
:clap::clap::clap:

Thank you sir for being intelligent. Without westbrook durant would average slightly more points (33-35) but would be horrible inefficient. Westy sets him up way more than you guys like to think.

Durant struggles to create for himself.

:facepalm:

ManRam
12-27-2011, 03:56 PM
:facepalm:

Amazing input.

Care to elaborate why that post deserves a facepalm. Most here seem to agree...

xk4
12-27-2011, 03:58 PM
Westbrook is fine as a scoring PG. He just needs to stop with the ****ing offensive fouls. I've never seen anybody charge into set defenders so consistently and look surprised when the call goes against him

JasonJohnHorn
12-27-2011, 04:05 PM
That trade would never happen. Dwight is worth WAY more than that.

As for the guy scoring 35+. anytime a guy is scoring that much, it is a sign that the team has no depth. Look at the teams in recent history that had a guy scoring that much. The Lakers with Kobe and the Bulls with Jordan, and neither time did those teams win anything. In fact, they finished below .500. It is only when their scoring averages came down that the teams won. That is because when you rely to heavily on one scorer, it means you dont have the tools to win. When you have the tools to win, there is no way you have one guy that dominates the ball like that. If you do, that means you arent getting other players involved. So unless you other scoring options are Smush Parker or Earl Cureton, you got to get the other guys involved.

OKC has Harden, Westbrook and Perkins. In order to win they have to utilize all their weapons. And I'm sure Durant would rather average 30 and win 50+, than average 35 and finish below .500.

hugepatsfan
12-27-2011, 04:13 PM
Westbrook is getting a lot of hate here. He isn't a superstar as some have said (I think that's probably a case of me using the word less loosely than others rather than me disagreeing w/ their evaluation of him). He's a very good player. I don't think it's a perfect fit, but it's not un-workable either. Ideally, I think they'd get a PG that can create for Durant and others. But until Harden develops into a consistant 18-20 PPG (w/ efficiency) compliment to Durant, they need Westy. If (and I think it's a matter of when) Harden does that, then you can talk about MAYBE moving on from Westy.

I think the real issue there is the lack of a post scorer. Perkins and Ibaka are good players, but I don't see either as the low post scoring threat I think you NEED to get to the top level. If Westy could be moved for an Al Jefferson type, then I'd explore that possibility.

Raph12
12-27-2011, 04:18 PM
Durant is a better off-ball scorer IMO, WB just takes pressure off of him... Same.

thephoenixson28
12-27-2011, 04:20 PM
I say the same or less. Westbrook takes pressure off Durant. If he had a PG like Steve Nash I say 30+ ppg.

ThuglifeJ
12-27-2011, 04:21 PM
\
It seems some people here think he's a fringe top-50 player or something...crazy.

ehh..dont push it.

kidding aside but Ok since we're all "delusional" who think score-me me me-first point guards aren't the way to go let me provide an easy example. What do all the champs have in common in terms of the point? they utilize their best scoring option to the fullest, they pass or are elite passers if team is lucky. Ive never seen a case where there is a score-look at me not him- point guard..closest we've had is Tony Parker..who DID utilize Duncan/Robinson/whoever more than Westbrook ever has..an would never shoot his team out of the playoffs..

Lakers 3 peat - Fisher..well he was more so shooter who just made passes into the post and utilized Shaq. What would have happened if Fish had an immature ego and kept rolling inside the 3 and pulling up crappy jumpers instead of force feeding shaq?

Spurs multi ships- Parker. A slasher indeed but also a passer. Fed Duncan, Robinson, but yes did score quite a bit. BUt he didnt feed himself first when he had Duncan. cough westbrook has DURANT the best scorer today.

Pistons- Billups. Leader/passer. Utilized/ran whole team of options.

Mavericks- Kidd. Definition piont guard, pure passing point guard/can shoot now. known for PASSING. Got to the finals twice before by bieng a leader/passer.

Celtics- Rondo. Known for playmaking and PASSING to his loads of options.


what do scoring points even do? they're cancerous! I love Rose but look what he did? he shot his friggin team outa the games last playoffs? What did Jameer Nelson do in the Finals vs Lakers? he came back cuz he thought they needed his scoring and F'd up. These friggin scoring points i swear lol

ThuglifeJ
12-27-2011, 04:24 PM
and arguing with you Manram is probably a poor idea just because lets face the facts. Your two favorite point guards are Jameer Nelson and Russell Westbrook. Those are my least two favorite point guards i kid you not. This argument can only end bad.

AddiX
12-27-2011, 04:30 PM
Ayone who says durant is better without Westbrook clearly hasn't been watching basketball for long. Westbrook HAD to be an aggressive scorer in the playoffs. Durant is an amazing player, but he has his weaknesses to, no post game or ability to get around smaller players, and when teams force the ball away from him, makes it VERY hard for him to score much.

Westbrook has to be on the attack constantly to keep that kind of defense off durant. I'm tired of the "golden boy" treatment durant gets.

Toxeryll
12-27-2011, 04:32 PM
depends on which pg hes playing with. with nash, i see him getting 35+

Birdmannn
12-27-2011, 04:34 PM
Westbrook has a nice game and will continue to develop he is quite young.

I find Rose and Westbrook so damn similar, their style of play and just about everything, am I the only one?

ManRam
12-27-2011, 04:35 PM
and arguing with you Manram is probably a poor idea just because lets face the facts. Your two favorite point guards are Jameer Nelson and Russell Westbrook. Those are my least two favorite point guards i kid you not. This argument can only end bad.

Russy is not one of my 5 favorite PGs, let alone 2. I do like him, however...

ManRam
12-27-2011, 04:40 PM
ehh..dont push it.

kidding aside but Ok since we're all "delusional" who think score-me me me-first point guards aren't the way to go let me provide an easy example. What do all the champs have in common in terms of the point? they utilize their best scoring option to the fullest, they pass or are elite passers if team is lucky. Ive never seen a case where there is a score-look at me not him- point guard..closest we've had is Tony Parker..who DID utilize Duncan/Robinson/whoever more than Westbrook ever has..an would never shoot his team out of the playoffs..

Lakers 3 peat - Fisher..well he was more so shooter who just made passes into the post and utilized Shaq. What would have happened if Fish had an immature ego and kept rolling inside the 3 and pulling up crappy jumpers instead of force feeding shaq?

Spurs multi ships- Parker. A slasher indeed but also a passer. Fed Duncan, Robinson, but yes did score quite a bit. BUt he didnt feed himself first when he had Duncan. cough westbrook has DURANT the best scorer today.

Pistons- Billups. Leader/passer. Utilized/ran whole team of options.

Mavericks- Kidd. Definition piont guard, pure passing point guard/can shoot now. known for PASSING. Got to the finals twice before by bieng a leader/passer.

Celtics- Rondo. Known for playmaking and PASSING to his loads of options.


what do scoring points even do? they're cancerous! I love Rose but look what he did? he shot his friggin team outa the games last playoffs? What did Jameer Nelson do in the Finals vs Lakers? he came back cuz he thought they needed his scoring and F'd up. These friggin scoring points i swear lol

The PG position in general is overrated.

Fisher and Chauncey were NOT pass-first PGs. Chauncey shot the ball at a high rate, and was his team's second leading scorer. They had more offensive balance than OKC did last year, but they relied HEAVILY on him to score. He "only" average 5.7 assists a game too the year they won...WAY LOWER than Russy's assist rates. Fisher is one of the worst passing PGs in the NBA...always has been. He doesn't shoot a ton, but he's not a good passer. Kidd is, Rondo is...but if you start going back, you'll struggle to find AS point guards, and great pass-first PGs winning titles.

Scoring PGs are fine, in fact, on most teams, I prefer them...

TEAM BALL MOVEMENT is the most important aspect these days. Only 3-4 PGs in the league really can run the offense 80%+ of the time they're on the court. It's easier to defend against offenses that rely on one guy to create everything...

ManRam
12-27-2011, 04:42 PM
Westbrook has a nice game and will continue to develop he is quite young.

I find Rose and Westbrook so damn similar, their style of play and just about everything, am I the only one?

They're literally identical players IMO. Their numbers were almost mirror images last year. Russy is a slightly better defender, and Rose has proven he can be the #1 option...but besides that, they're basically the same exact player. Bulls fans will blast me, but I see little, if any, drop off from the Bulls if you swapped the two.,

AddiX
12-27-2011, 04:58 PM
Russ is slightly better than rose on defense? Are you nuts? He's light years better on defense.

ManRam
12-27-2011, 05:00 PM
Russ is slightly better than rose on defense? Are you nuts? He's light years better on defense.

I won't disagree. I didn't want to upset the masses too much...

Swashcuff
12-27-2011, 05:08 PM
ehh..dont push it.

kidding aside but Ok since we're all "delusional" who think score-me me me-first point guards aren't the way to go let me provide an easy example. What do all the champs have in common in terms of the point? they utilize their best scoring option to the fullest, they pass or are elite passers if team is lucky. Ive never seen a case where there is a score-look at me not him- point guard..closest we've had is Tony Parker..who DID utilize Duncan/Robinson/whoever more than Westbrook ever has..an would never shoot his team out of the playoffs..

Lakers 3 peat - Fisher..well he was more so shooter who just made passes into the post and utilized Shaq. What would have happened if Fish had an immature ego and kept rolling inside the 3 and pulling up crappy jumpers instead of force feeding shaq?

Spurs multi ships- Parker. A slasher indeed but also a passer. Fed Duncan, Robinson, but yes did score quite a bit. BUt he didnt feed himself first when he had Duncan. cough westbrook has DURANT the best scorer today.

Pistons- Billups. Leader/passer. Utilized/ran whole team of options.

Mavericks- Kidd. Definition piont guard, pure passing point guard/can shoot now. known for PASSING. Got to the finals twice before by bieng a leader/passer.

Celtics- Rondo. Known for playmaking and PASSING to his loads of options.


what do scoring points even do? they're cancerous! I love Rose but look what he did? he shot his friggin team outa the games last playoffs? What did Jameer Nelson do in the Finals vs Lakers? he came back cuz he thought they needed his scoring and F'd up. These friggin scoring points i swear lol

This entire post is basically a waste of time. Gus Williams, Isiah Thomas, Tony Parker, Chauncey Billups, Magic Johnson, Jerry West, Walt Frazier etc all players who lead their teams to titles while either leading or among the top 2 in scoring. To say a scoring PG is useless is absolutely ridiculous.

To think a scoring point is cancerous really shows a lack of knowledge of the history of the game.

Swashcuff
12-27-2011, 05:09 PM
I won't disagree. I didn't want to upset the masses too much...

I wouldn't go as far to say lightyears. I mean c'mon Rose really grew in that regard this past season. He was a quite capable defensive player for the Bulls last season.

ThuglifeJ
12-27-2011, 05:12 PM
I'd like to see usage percentage of Westbrook compared to those guys I mentioned..Fisher cant even be in the talks really because he isn't "used" really but I had to include Lakers. Im trying to say a point guard utilizing himself first, and not his best scoring option/team NEVER works. It's infact cancerous at times aka WCF when Westbrook shot their team outa it. Rose shot his team out of playoffs last year..Jameer in Finals 09. it's just so frustrating to me.

I agree that Rose and Westbrook are alike tho. Same game/Athleticism.. Rose is a better leader/team player and more in control though by a longshot. Westbrook is OC.

and that's where we disagree to the fullest that you think the point guard position is "overrated". That's what I cant stand about NBA now days, and as a point guard lol. Setting up dimes is such an efficient way of scoring and getting the team going. You set up a dime pass on a cutter/pnr and you get a shooting foul on the scorer or a bucket with a lost defense..

Look at the past tho, the good days. You have Stockton in the finals all the time, Kidd leading his Nets to the finals, no dominate Bulls PG or Lakers..I mean EVERY championship team/Finals team is consisting of either no high usage point guard or a passing/playmaking PG

ManRam
12-27-2011, 05:14 PM
This entire post is basically a waste of time. Gus Williams, Isiah Thomas, Tony Parker, Chauncey Billups, Magic Johnson, Jerry West, Walt Frazier etc all players who lead their teams to titles while either leading or among the top 2 in scoring. To say a scoring PG is useless is absolutely ridiculous.

To think a scoring point is cancerous really shows a lack of knowledge of the history of the game.

Yeah.

If you go back and look at any of the championship teams, back all the way to the Magic days, and even before that, you won't find many top tier pass-first PGs leading their teams to championships. If anyone is using Chauncey or Fisher to show how scoring PGs are cancerous...well...your argument has failed before it's even started

ManRam
12-27-2011, 05:17 PM
I'd like to see usage percentage of Westbrook compared to those guys I mentioned..Fisher cant even be in the talks really because he isn't "used" really but I had to include Lakers. Im trying to say a point guard utilizing himself first, and not his best scoring option/team NEVER works. It's infact cancerous at times aka WCF when Westbrook shot their team outa it. Rose shot his team out of playoffs last year..Jameer in Finals 09. it's just so frustrating to me.

I agree that Rose and Westbrook are alike tho. Same game/Athleticism.. Rose is a better leader/team player and more in control though by a longshot. Westbrook is OC.

and that's where we disagree to the fullest that you think the point guard position is "overrated". That's what I cant stand about NBA now days, and as a point guard lol. Setting up dimes is such an efficient way of scoring and getting the team going. You set up a dime pass on a cutter/pnr and you get a shooting foul on the scorer or a bucket with a lost defense..

Look at the past tho, the good days. You have Stockton in the finals all the time, Kidd leading his Nets to the finals, no dominate Bulls PG or Lakers..I mean EVERY championship team/Finals team is consisting of either no high usage point guard or a passing/playmaking PG

Sure, but again, go look at the championship teams. Very few relied on a PG to create the offense for the entire team. It's easier to have a balanced offense when you have a bunch of scorers who can create on their own, and a bunch of guys who compliment each other well and move the ball as a team...rather than one guy being relied on for everything. The idea that pass-first PGs are a necessity to be successful is one of the biggest myths there is...and it never has really been the case.

ThuglifeJ
12-27-2011, 05:18 PM
This entire post is basically a waste of time. Gus Williams, Isiah Thomas, Tony Parker, Chauncey Billups, Magic Johnson, Jerry West, Walt Frazier etc all players who lead their teams to titles while either leading or among the top 2 in scoring. To say a scoring PG is useless is absolutely ridiculous.

To think a scoring point is cancerous really shows a lack of knowledge of the history of the game.

How are those point guards like Westbrook? Ok Tony Parker MAYBE. These guys dont have the best SCORER in the game alongside them. Westbrook plays alongside Kevin Durant is my point..so his selfish (in my eyes) play is what is so frustrating.

Tony Parker was not shooting before DUncan/Robinson were getting post ups. Magic Johnson should not be listed in this as he played every position. Billups and taht piston teams might have had the most even scoring/usage out of any Championship team.

Theres a difference when you need to score, ala Jerry West, Isiah Thomas, compared to Westbrook who avoids Kevin Durant in crucial moments and ajcks up poor middys..

coryd238
12-27-2011, 05:19 PM
Westbrook makes Durant look better than he really is.

ThuglifeJ
12-27-2011, 05:21 PM
Sure, but again, go look at the championship teams. Very few relied on a PG to create the offense for the entire team. It's easier to have a balanced offense when you have a bunch of scorers who can create on their own, and a bunch of guys who compliment each other well and move the ball as a team...rather than one guy being relied on for everything. The idea that pass-first PGs are a necessity to be successful is one of the biggest myths there is...and it never has really been the case.

It's a myth because you say so? And no I didnt say one guy being relied on for everything. That is not what anyone means by Pass-first point guards. Being able to run plays through a point or a point guard just being able to make passes and looks for teammates/best scoring options first is a pass first point guard. I dont know where you got this Idea that the point guard is running everything every play.

Swashcuff
12-27-2011, 05:28 PM
How are those point guards like Westbrook? Ok Tony Parker MAYBE. These guys dont have the best SCORER in the game alongside them. Westbrook plays alongside Kevin Durant is my point..so his selfish (in my eyes) play is what is so frustrating.

Tony Parker was not shooting before DUncan/Robinson were getting post ups. Magic Johnson should not be listed in this as he played every position. Billups and taht piston teams might have had the most even scoring/usage out of any Championship team.

Theres a difference when you need to score, ala Jerry West, Isiah Thomas, compared to Westbrook who avoids Kevin Durant in crucial moments and ajcks up poor middys..

What? Jerry West played alongside Elgin Baylor (who averaged 29 or more on 4 separate occasions while player with West) and Wilt Chamberlain. He also had a quite capable back court mate in Gail Goodrich. He needed to score just as much as Westbrook does. Isiah Thomas had great defensive teams. While he had a heavy scoring load he also had the backing of a solid defensive unit.

Also what is this you're talking about Westbrook not needing to score? If he doesn't score then who's going to put the ball in the hoop? Durant isn't going to score 45 ppg.

Did it ever occur to you that Durant can be as effective AND efficient as he is BECAUSE of Russell Westbrook and not in spite. If Westbrook doesn't score wouldn't all the attention be paid to KD. Tell me would that make KDs job easier or harder?

Westbrook needs to score more than many of the PGs that I listed earlier if he wants his team to succeed. Did he do a horrible job of effectively running the point against Dallas last post season? IMO yes and I'll always be critical of him for it until he can show that he's completely changed but by no means whatsoever is he or every scoring PG a cancer to their team.

Swashcuff
12-27-2011, 05:29 PM
Westbrook makes Durant look better than he really is.

If that's your POV I hope you know that it works both ways.

xk4
12-27-2011, 05:35 PM
To me, it looked like Westbrook took so many shots in last years playoffs because Durant was covered. Ball movement could have been loads better, but in the long term who else was he supposed to feed?

They have all the role players and energy guys to contend, but there needs to be a somewhat reliable 3rd option on the inside to carry some of the weight. I love Perk and he is healthier this year but that jump hook doesn't win trophies

ManRam
12-27-2011, 05:41 PM
It's a myth because you say so? And no I didnt say one guy being relied on for everything. That is not what anyone means by Pass-first point guards. Being able to run plays through a point or a point guard just being able to make passes and looks for teammates/best scoring options first is a pass first point guard. I dont know where you got this Idea that the point guard is running everything every play.

Not because I say so...I've explained WHY I think so, both here and many times before...

I'd rather have a PG who can score 25 points than one who can't, especially when said PG still averages 8+ assists a game. I don't care what he does "first"...but I think the more scoring weapons the better.

Russy is hardly ever a detriment to his team. Sometimes he does get shot happy, but what player doesn't? He should be taking 16-18+ shots a game.

Swashcuff
12-27-2011, 05:49 PM
Who would you rather have starting at point Walt Frazier or Jason Kidd? Better yet Oscar Robertson or John Stockton?

ThuglifeJ
12-27-2011, 07:07 PM
I think you're not getting what I'm trying to get at really. But nevermind, I understand your reasoning, and I was wrong about Jerry West thing, I dont go that far back well, more so 90's/00s. But Westbrook has plenty of chance to redeem himself..they will make the playoffs this year and we will see. Until then my opinion stands that it's not good when the guy bringing the ball up is chucking the team out of a game.
If this year is different I have no right to say anything about Westbrook though. Much like Lebron in the finals.

Also I might get ripped for this. But if the team is surrounded with scorers/talent I'd take Jason Kidd..if not gimme Frazier.

billsftw
12-27-2011, 07:55 PM
i think if you take away Russ you're taking away most fast break points.

Sly Guy
12-27-2011, 08:16 PM
I agree> Russell Westbrook is not the problem...When the Thunder won 50+ games nobody was talking bout Russy not a good PG or any of that. He had a bad series and all of a sudden he is the problem, knock it off. The Thunder problem is they have nobody in the post that can create and for themselves. I honestly think they should have went after David West and brought Ibaka off the bench, or tried to get in on that LO deal.

that may be true for most, but I was watching the thunder plenty last year and I can honestly say that the playoffs was not an freak occurrence. Dude has all the athletic ability in the world, but his bball IQ is not something I want in my PG.

Swashcuff
12-27-2011, 08:19 PM
I think you're not getting what I'm trying to get at really.

From what I understand you think Westbrook is bad for his team because he's trying to be a #1 when his role is to play the point and feed the rock to his true #1 in Kevin Durant who is already the two time defending scoring champ. Do I agree with that? Yes actually I do. However that would be more understandable if Zach Randolph and Marc Gasol were their starting PF/Cs instead of Ibaka and Perkins. Because of the fact that the Thunder aren't very potent offensively outside of KD, Westbrook and Harden his role is then to score as well as facilitate. If he doesn't his team is going to lose. Hell if you place Steve Nash or Rajon Rondo on that team in that system their scoring will see a MAJOR increase.

Its not as if Russell Westbrook (or Derrick Rose) have very many options offensively in terms of teammates so they opt to do what they do just as good as others (like Nash and Kidd) can pass which is score. Westbrook on one hand is a bit erratic in that regard and loses himself sometimes which is what we saw against the Mavs last postseason when he had almost the same amount of turnovers as assists and took very nearly the same amount of FGA as KD did. I can see your issue with that because I myself took serious issue with it. That however doesn't make all scoring PGs cancerous. That doesn't make Westbrook cancerous.


Also I might get ripped for this. But if the team is surrounded with scorers/talent I'd take Jason Kidd..if not gimme Frazier.

But why though? Because Kidd facilitates better? How often do we see APG leaders leading on championship teams about as often as we see shoot first PGs on them. Walt is better at Kidd at every aspect of the game other than passing. You're really going to choose one player over another for a good team because he can share the rock? Your opinion is your opinion but this thinking that a traditional PG should share the rock first then focus on everything else after really hasn't proven to be a formula for success.

As a matter of a fact Magic Johnson, Jerry West and Bob Cousy (all 3 who were considered PGs who could score when needed to) are the only three players in the history of the league to lead the league in APG for the regular season and win a title in that very same year.

IMO I go with the better player regardless of the staff. Frazier did as good a job as anyone could of keeping everyone happy on those great Knicks teams as well as leading his team to Championships. I know you'd like to go the conventional pass first PG route but sometimes you'd gotta ask yourself if that's really what's going to be best for your team.

Sly Guy
12-27-2011, 08:34 PM
From what I understand you think Westbrook is bad for his team because he's trying to be a #1 when his role is to play the point and feed the rock to his true #1 in Kevin Durant who is already the two time defending scoring champ. Do I agree with that? Yes actually I do. However that would be more understandable if Zach Randolph and Marc Gasol were their starting PF/Cs instead of Ibaka and Perkins. Because of the fact that the Thunder aren't very potent offensively outside of KD, Westbrook and Harden his role is then to score as well as facilitate. If he doesn't his team is going to lose. Hell if you place Steve Nash or Rajon Rondo on that team in that system their scoring will see a MAJOR increase.

Its not as if Russell Westbrook (or Derrick Rose) have very many options offensively in terms of teammates so they opt to do what they do just as good as others (like Nash and Kidd) can pass which is score. Westbrook on one hand is a bit erratic in that regard and loses himself sometimes which is what we saw against the Mavs last postseason when he had almost the same amount of turnovers as assists and took very nearly the same amount of FGA as KD did. I can see your issue with that because I myself took serious issue with it. That however doesn't make all scoring PGs cancerous. That doesn't make Westbrook cancerous.



But why though? Because Kidd facilitates better? How often do we see APG leaders leading on championship teams about as often as we see shoot first PGs on them. Walt is better at Kidd at every aspect of the game other than passing. You're really going to choose one player over another for a good team because he can share the rock? Your opinion is your opinion but this thinking that a traditional PG should share the rock first then focus on everything else after really hasn't proven to be a formula for success.

As a matter of a fact Magic Johnson, Jerry West and Bob Cousy (all 3 who were considered PGs who could score when needed to) are the only three players in the history of the league to lead the league in APG for the regular season and win a title in that very same year.

IMO I go with the better player regardless of the staff. Frazier did as good a job as anyone could of keeping everyone happy on those great Knicks teams as well as leading his team to Championships. I know you'd like to go the conventional pass first PG route but sometimes you'd gotta ask yourself if that's really what's going to be best for your team.

My only response to something like that will be to watch a guy like CP3 mesh with the clips. Or even, just look back at his last few seasons with the Hornets. A good, pass first PG will make every guy on the floor a weapon. He'll find a way to make even a guy like Reggie Evans a scoring threat, even if he's gotta spoon feed him layups to do it. Guys like Westbrook don't do that for guys like Ibaka and Perk.

Swashcuff
12-27-2011, 08:51 PM
My only response to something like that will be to watch a guy like CP3 mesh with the clips. Or even, just look back at his last few seasons with the Hornets. A good, pass first PG will make every guy on the floor a weapon. He'll find a way to make even a guy like Reggie Evans a scoring threat, even if he's gotta spoon feed him layups to do it. Guys like Westbrook don't do that for guys like Ibaka and Perk.

Problem with that is Chris Paul is one of best facilitators to ever play the game. Tell me this however. What happened when Chris Paul made the post season and he played against the Lakers? In order for his team to be successful didn't he have to shoot (score more) than he did in the regular season?

So what if Westbrook isn't doing that for Ibaka and Perk? Hell Rajon Rondo didn't do that for Perk. As the PG you do what you have to in order to help your team win.

C'mon Chris Paul is a GREAT PG not a miracle worker he isn't going to make Reggie Evans a scoring threat. He'll find him in places Westbrook wouldn't even think to look and that's what makes him such a great PG but making him a scoring threat is a bit of a reach.

Sportfan
12-27-2011, 08:54 PM
Less, James Harden will average 40 :cool:

ChiSox219
12-27-2011, 11:12 PM
When the Thunder won 50+ games nobody was talking bout Russy not a good PG or any of that.

Not true

jej
12-27-2011, 11:50 PM
I think it would be slightly higher. And to the person who said you lose all of Russ' points, the new PG would score too. I think we need a PG to score 12-15, and get 8-10 assists.
I personally dont think Maynor is that guy, but i dont know for sure.
I would like Millsap, but they dont need another PG as much as they need Sap.
What would you guys think about:
Russ
Ibaka
for:
Josh Smith
Kirk Hinrich
pick?

KnicksR4Real
12-27-2011, 11:54 PM
73 points

KnicksorBust
12-28-2011, 12:00 AM
It's a shame Westbrook will hold back Harden and Durant their entire careers.

Raph12
12-28-2011, 03:31 AM
Westbrook may be holding back Harden, as Harden is another ball dominant guard, but he's not holding back Durant... If anything, he's helping take pressure off of him.

Cal827
12-28-2011, 03:36 AM
9999 points per game. Teams would just get tired of him scoring so they would go to the Hack-A-Dur policy.

LakersIn5
12-28-2011, 05:17 AM
43 gazillion unicorn pubic hairballs

Ebbs
12-28-2011, 05:40 AM
People are silly if they think getting rid of Westbrook makes KD better.

Russ is a top 20 player and a hell of a scorer. He needs to be accounted for. If he was gone teams would literally have Durant and Harden off the bench to worry about and nothing else.

I say without Rus KD scores 27ish

Law25
12-28-2011, 06:32 AM
I say he would average around 20 or 23 shooting in the low forties. Not a Durant hater either I think this year he can push to be considered best in the game. My reason for thinking that his scoring would drop is becuase he cant at this point in his career creat his own shot the way Jordan, Kobe,and T-mac can and could, also he's not a assist guy so it would make him way more predictable. From the games i watch of him alot of his point are of screens and off Westbrooks penetration at this point. I could be wrong but this is my honest non-biased opinion of him.

Law25
12-28-2011, 06:35 AM
Before someone gets pissed I'm not sayind Durant cant creat his own shot. I'm saying he cant at the level Jordan, Kobe, and T-mac can and could at this point in his career.

Raps18-19 Champ
12-28-2011, 06:36 AM
He'll take 5 out of the 20 shots Westbrook took.

Most of the shots Westbrook took would go to other players.

abe_froman
12-28-2011, 06:38 AM
about the same.yes russ takes alot of shots but he also creates alot of better looks for kd