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View Full Version : Defensive Highlight Reel: LeBron



Chronz
12-20-2011, 01:47 PM
http://www.nba.com/heat/video/2011/12/16/LeBronDefense201011-1936837/index.html

Underrated defensively

Synergy rates him as the 2nd best defender in the game, his +/- and counterpart #'s are always elite.

Why do you people sleep on him?

Chronz
12-20-2011, 01:51 PM
hows his D in the 4th?

It gets better, check the vids ending

GhostfaceDrilla
12-20-2011, 01:53 PM
He didn't do this in the Finals and Marion locked him down but people are just gonna say "LeBron took the series off, he didn't want to win, Mavs just got lucky, etc..."

I'm not sleeping on that. I'm sleeping on his ability to win when it matters.

ManRam
12-20-2011, 01:57 PM
He didn't do this in the Finals and Marion locked him down but people are just gonna say "LeBron took the series off, he didn't want to win, Mavs just got lucky, etc..."

I'm not sleeping on that. I'm sleeping on his ability to win when it matters.

This thread is about his defense...

And his defense usually turns to complete-lockdown in the 4th.

GhostfaceDrilla
12-20-2011, 01:59 PM
This thread is about his defense...

And his defense usually turns to complete-lockdown in the 4th.

I know. His D is amazing. But his ability to win when it matters most isn't there.

haggis
12-20-2011, 02:01 PM
Did I miss something?

When did anyone think differently about LBJ's defense?

Shmontaine
12-20-2011, 02:02 PM
his stats aside, any player can put a video like that together...

RLundi
12-20-2011, 02:20 PM
I'm sorry but half of those defensive plays are just players missing shots. There were a couple of possessions where LeBron didn't even jump, he just put a hand up -- that's good defense??

I'm not knocking LeBron because he is a supreme defender, but half of this video really doesn't mean much. Should we reward him every time a player misses a shot? For every possession that a player misses a shot, there are probably two more that a player makes the shot.

LeBron is an elite defender -- didn't we already know that? This video didn't prove anything.

LayZbone
12-20-2011, 02:23 PM
I know. His D is amazing. But his ability to win when it matters most isn't there.

Which isn't a relevant opinion for this thread.

PhillyFaninLA
12-20-2011, 02:23 PM
People that know basketball know how good Lebron is a defense.

Those that just want to talk trash, bait, troll, look cool in front of strangers on the internet, or hate because of a TV show ESPN aired and approved that made $250,000 for charity will say his defense isn't good.

29$JerZ
12-20-2011, 02:23 PM
This is about defense, not his offensive 4th quarter performance...

THE GIPPER
12-20-2011, 02:26 PM
I know. His D is amazing. But his ability to win when it matters most isn't there.

Cool. Thats not what the threads about. And i wouldnt be so confident in his finals struggles because when its all said and done theres no doubt in my mind he'll have more rings than your boy Dirk.

LayZbone
12-20-2011, 02:34 PM
his stats aside, any player can put a video like that together...

oh, ok.

mjm07
12-20-2011, 02:36 PM
I know. His D is amazing. But his ability to win when it matters most isn't there.

I'm sure everyone was saying the same about Dirk....either way he does win when it matters he does in the 1st, 2nd round, and ECF which does matter also.

Unfortunately, he has failed, choked, dissapointed whatever in his two Final appearance.

He will have more opportunities to change his Finals perception just like Dirk was able to last year.

But regarding the thread, the video doesn't change my opinion that LBJ is All world Defensively. The scary part....he probably will only get better. ;)

KTheo77
12-20-2011, 02:36 PM
Weren't there four other guys starting on his team when they lost in the finals? You see where Cleveland is without him, and you can't put all the blame on him for last year. Bosh was inconsistent at times, Miller and Haslem were injured, we never had an everyday starter at PG or Center all year. You can't put it all on Lebron, he didn't step up, but that isn't the only reason the HEAT lost. I'll take Lebron in the fourth quarter anytime, we can put together quite a video of him hitting big shots too, nobody talks about that.

Hawkize31
12-20-2011, 02:38 PM
I know. His D is amazing. But his ability to win when it matters most isn't there.

Tell that to the Celtics. And the Bulls. But god forbid he lose to the Mavs, a really great team.

Raph12
12-20-2011, 02:40 PM
I only hold Iggy in higher regard when it comes to perimeter defense... If Lebron gave it 100% all game, it would be over.

Hustlenomics
12-20-2011, 02:53 PM
Kobe shoots over Lebron
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ewewsd9x7_c

Carmelo Game winner over Lebron
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n_MY0qUt5CM

Rudy gay game winner over lebron
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Zlz1tMz_FCs

Jason Terry hits a three over lebron to ice the game
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Np3y0Hw-weM

T-mac embarrassing Lebron with crossover then shot
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KOu18W4EcI4

justinnum1
12-20-2011, 02:56 PM
Kobe shoots over Lebron
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ewewsd9x7_c

Carmelo Game winner over Lebron
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n_MY0qUt5CM

Rudy gay game winner over lebron
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Zlz1tMz_FCs

Jason Terry hits a three over lebron to ice the game
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Np3y0Hw-weM

T-mac embarrassing Lebron with crossover then shot
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KOu18W4EcI4

And I can find many plays where he is locking someone down...first refer to the ECF last season and watch 4th qtrs...

Not to mention lebron **** all over iggy in the 1st round

tcav701
12-20-2011, 02:58 PM
Kobe shoots over Lebron
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ewewsd9x7_c

Carmelo Game winner over Lebron
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n_MY0qUt5CM

Rudy gay game winner over lebron
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Zlz1tMz_FCs

Jason Terry hits a three over lebron to ice the game
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Np3y0Hw-weM

T-mac embarrassing Lebron with crossover then shot
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KOu18W4EcI4

and of course: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s1TcGUk228o&feature=related

Hustlenomics
12-20-2011, 03:00 PM
and of course: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s1TcGUk228o&feature=related

and http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5X5LDSAs6EA&feature=related

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8af6m8cPgnE&feature=related

Hawkeye15
12-20-2011, 03:03 PM
anyone who understands the game of basketball and how to understand defensive metrics knows he is absolutely elite defensively. Easily the best two way player in the game. When you are a top 3 offensive player, and top 2 defensive player, you are awesome.

clehmun
12-20-2011, 03:08 PM
Bottom line, LBJ plays great defense. But video highlights mean nothing, for every "stop" you find, I can find another where someone scores on him.

Hawkeye15
12-20-2011, 03:13 PM
I am a bit surprised Chronz is using video highlights to start a thread proving a point. He of all people know highlight reels mean nothing.

Shmontaine
12-20-2011, 03:15 PM
oh, ok.

yep, now you know

LAKobeBryant
12-20-2011, 03:23 PM
doenst matter everyone still hates him because of his cockiness in post season and heats introduction before even playing 1 game.

smith&wesson
12-20-2011, 03:25 PM
http://www.nba.com/heat/video/2011/12/16/LeBronDefense201011-1936837/index.html

Underrated defensively

Synergy rates him as the 2nd best defender in the game, his +/- and counterpart #'s are always elite.

Why do you people sleep on him?

grant it lebron gets hated on. but slept on ? were talking about king james right ? the guy who was labled king before he entered the nba ?

no one sleeps on lebron and if they do they are blinded by the hate. the guy is a phenom on both ends of the court. and he can gaurd positions 1-4. i agree with u crons he is a beast on D and any one who doesnt think so doesnt watch him play or they just hate that he is not on their team.

I think lebron is the best defender in the league. he doesnt just block shots like howard does.. he can gaurd the perimiter, he can gaurd wings, pg's, power forwards.. etc.

smith&wesson
12-20-2011, 03:29 PM
doenst matter everyone still hates him because of his cockiness in post season and heats introduction before even playing 1 game.

ppl need to get over it...MJ was cocky too, kobe is cocky too ..

smith&wesson
12-20-2011, 03:30 PM
anyone who understands the game of basketball and how to understand defensive metrics knows he is absolutely elite defensively. Easily the best two way player in the game. When you are a top 3 offensive player, and top 2 defensive player, you are awesome.

+1

PlezPlayDKnicks
12-20-2011, 03:30 PM
Lebron is a great defender against the majority of the league.. But I do question him against confident scorers. Paul Peirce, Melo, Durant, and even Rondo exposed LBJ's individual man defense. I think where he thrives is team Defense. Nobody does it better from a team concept than him. In an straight ISO situation not so much against the elite. And please don't mention he locked down DRose. That was totally team Defense!!! Rose had 3 guys waiting for him if he passes Lebron. The Heat ignored every1 when Rose had the ball.

smith&wesson
12-20-2011, 03:34 PM
Lebron is a great defender against the majority of the league.. But I do question him against confident scorers. Paul Peirce, Melo, Durant, and even Rondo exposed LBJ's individual man defense. I think where he thrives is team Defense. Nobody does it better from a team concept than him. In an straight ISO situation not so much against the elite. And please don't mention he locked down DRose. That was totally team Defense!!! Rose had 3 guys waiting for him if he passes Lebron. The Heat ignored every1 when Rose had the ball.

there are some players you hope to contain but simply wont shut down. you cant expect to shut down the elite players in this league every time. but that doesnt take away from the fact that lebron can play any one straight up with out requiring a double team for the most part. his man on man and his help D are amongst the best.

naps
12-20-2011, 03:54 PM
He didn't do this in the Finals and Marion locked him down but people are just gonna say "LeBron took the series off, he didn't want to win, Mavs just got lucky, etc..."

I'm not sleeping on that. I'm sleeping on his ability to win when it matters.

How about you fcuken read the thread, actually know wtf this is about, and then comment?

stawka
12-20-2011, 03:57 PM
People that know basketball know how good Lebron is a defense.

Those that just want to talk trash, bait, troll, look cool in front of strangers on the internet, or hate because of a TV show ESPN aired and approved that made $250,000 for charity will say his defense isn't good.

That's the most logical LeBron-related post which wasn't typed up by a Heat fan. Well done my man

I'll watch the video when I get home. We ALL know LeBron is damn elite on both ends of the floor, his D is amazing. Can't wait for this damn season!

PlezPlayDKnicks
12-20-2011, 04:30 PM
there are some players you hope to contain but simply wont shut down. you cant expect to shut down the elite players in this league every time. but that doesnt take away from the fact that lebron can play any one straight up with out requiring a double team for the most part. his man on man and his help D are amongst the best.

No arguement on all your points. But usually the elite defenders in the league are feared. Guys like Artest and Payton, Bowen were feared. You knew u were in for a long night. Elite offensive players succeed and don't fear Lebron. He may contain them better than most but I personally don't see him as one of those guys. With that said the offense load he carries and his good defense easily makes him the best overall talent in the league . I just think that this lockdown defender hype is a bit overhyped. He can be in spurts against the elite players but more often than not they get the best of him. That's usually not the case of elite defenders. Anyway that's just how I see it.

Swashcuff
12-20-2011, 04:37 PM
Lebron is a great defender against the majority of the league.. But I do question him against confident scorers. Paul Peirce, Melo, Durant, and even Rondo exposed LBJ's individual man defense. I think where he thrives is team Defense. Nobody does it better from a team concept than him. In an straight ISO situation not so much against the elite. And please don't mention he locked down DRose. That was totally team Defense!!! Rose had 3 guys waiting for him if he passes Lebron. The Heat ignored every1 when Rose had the ball.

Thing is for the life of him he couldn't get pass LeBron.

Chronz
12-20-2011, 04:38 PM
I'm sorry but half of those defensive plays are just players missing shots. There were a couple of possessions where LeBron didn't even jump, he just put a hand up -- that's good defense??
The recurring theme is that those open shots are mid range jumpers off the dribble and that hes not biting on fakes. Thats fundamental defense, off the dribble 2's are the lowest % shot in basketball.


I'm not knocking LeBron because he is a supreme defender, but half of this video really doesn't mean much. Should we reward him every time a player misses a shot? For every possession that a player misses a shot, there are probably two more that a player makes the shot.

Would you like me to check those #'s for you?


LeBron is an elite defender -- didn't we already know that? This video didn't prove anything.

Not on its own no, I mentioned several factors.

Chronz
12-20-2011, 04:39 PM
He didn't do this in the Finals and Marion locked him down but people are just gonna say "LeBron took the series off, he didn't want to win, Mavs just got lucky, etc..."

I'm not sleeping on that. I'm sleeping on his ability to win when it matters.

LOL your insecurities are showing. This is about defense, all people are going to tell you is that only 2 teams made the Finals, that doesnt mean nobody else can defend. Besides all they have to say is that its 1 series after a grueling playoff run. Its not damning in any way

Swashcuff
12-20-2011, 04:42 PM
LeBron James could donate all that he ever earned as a pro to charity and there would still be posters to ignorantly want to share their biased agenda about LeBron not doing well "when it matters". Pathetic in all honesty.

Chronz
12-20-2011, 04:42 PM
Kobe shoots over Lebron
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ewewsd9x7_c

Carmelo Game winner over Lebron
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n_MY0qUt5CM

Rudy gay game winner over lebron
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Zlz1tMz_FCs

Jason Terry hits a three over lebron to ice the game
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Np3y0Hw-weM

T-mac embarrassing Lebron with crossover then shot
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KOu18W4EcI4
An Allstar game from years ago? really?
....................



??










REALLY?

naps
12-20-2011, 04:44 PM
doenst matter everyone still hates him because of his cockiness in post season and heats introduction before even playing 1 game.

Be careful when you generalize like this. It's more like the pathetic Kobephiles and the fans of the teams who were expecting he would join their team. Not everyone.

Chronz
12-20-2011, 04:45 PM
I am a bit surprised Chronz is using video highlights to start a thread proving a point. He of all people know highlight reels mean nothing.
Where in my thread am I saying its anything other than a highlight reel?

Chronz
12-20-2011, 04:51 PM
Lebron is a great defender against the majority of the league.. But I do question him against confident scorers. Paul Peirce, Melo, Durant, and even Rondo exposed LBJ's individual man defense. I think where he thrives is team Defense. Nobody does it better from a team concept than him. In an straight ISO situation not so much against the elite. And please don't mention he locked down DRose. That was totally team Defense!!! Rose had 3 guys waiting for him if he passes Lebron. The Heat ignored every1 when Rose had the ball.
I applaud you for being the first one to actually debate a specific points though I disagree with them. We should make a highlight reel of all the attempts from those players in Isolation. If I can find someone tech savvy Ill post the results.

gotoHcarolina52
12-20-2011, 05:14 PM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xrh1AQGDyA4

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eer_sUWookE

PlezPlayDKnicks
12-20-2011, 05:20 PM
Thing is for the life of him he couldn't get pass LeBron.

Rondo got past Lebron easily when he was on the Cavs and it wasn't even A problem . Rose could easily blow by Lebron to meet 3 defenders. C'mon man. Seriously u think Rose cant get past Lebron. This is exactly what I'm talking about in overrating LbJ's defense. Lebron did a great job of funneling him into the heart of the defense but it's partially them throwing everything including the kitchen sink at him . I remember when Marbury to the Knicks to the playoffs and when he crossed the halfcourt line he had 3 defenders assigned to him bcuz they respected nobody else. It's not exactly the same but that's instantly what came to mind. They had no respect for his teammates as did the heat dared to let others beat them

Chronz
12-20-2011, 05:27 PM
Rondo got past Lebron easily when he was on the Cavs and it wasn't even A problem . Rose could easily blow by Lebron to meet 3 defenders. C'mon man. Seriously u think Rose cant get past Lebron. This is exactly what I'm talking about in overrating LbJ's defense. Lebron did a great job of funneling him into the heart of the defense but it's partially them throwing everything including the kitchen sink at him . I remember when Marbury to the Knicks to the playoffs and when he crossed the halfcourt line he had 3 defenders assigned to him bcuz they respected nobody else. It's not exactly the same but that's instantly what came to mind. They had no respect for his teammates as did the heat dared to let others beat them

I saw a few possessions where Rose was goaded into a bad jumper because he couldnt break Bron down.

2doors
12-20-2011, 05:31 PM
Rondo got past Lebron easily when he was on the Cavs and it wasn't even A problem . Rose could easily blow by Lebron to meet 3 defenders. C'mon man. Seriously u think Rose cant get past Lebron. This is exactly what I'm talking about in overrating LbJ's defense. Lebron did a great job of funneling him into the heart of the defense but it's partially them throwing everything including the kitchen sink at him . I remember when Marbury to the Knicks to the playoffs and when he crossed the halfcourt line he had 3 defenders assigned to him bcuz they respected nobody else. It's not exactly the same but that's instantly what came to mind. They had no respect for his teammates as did the heat dared to let others beat them

who can even come close to guarding rose like that at his size, his versatility on defense alone makes him elite. lebron is a top 3 defender in the league

PlezPlayDKnicks
12-20-2011, 05:45 PM
I saw a few possessions where Rose was goaded into a bad jumper because he couldnt break Bron down.

I'm sure that has happened. I have no problem in admitting that he is capable in stopping elite scorers. Im just saying its usually done in the team concept more often than not. I'm not sure if you play ball but if I have a great defender on me but I know I can beat him to the rack it makes me hesitant to drive if I know he has two help defenders waiting on me when I beat him and I know he's right behind me if I slow up. Sometimes Rose has to just take bad shots because the bulks offense is so bad. I think it's a combo of both. I think we both have valid points

PlezPlayDKnicks
12-20-2011, 05:50 PM
who can even come close to guarding rose like that at his size, his versatility on defense alone makes him elite. lebron is a top 3 defender in the league

Never said he wasn't a great defender. My point is if all Rose had to worry about just Lebron he'd get the best of him easily. You have to respect his shot and he has elite speed. The help D neutralized that. Heat game planned well against him. When I call some1 elite on defense I think of old Ron Artest. Lebron is good but I don't think he is at that level. Ron was a great individual and team defender. I think Lebron is a great team defender and a good individual defender.

mjm07
12-20-2011, 05:52 PM
I'm sure that has happened. I have no problem in admitting that he is capable in stopping elite scorers. Im just saying its usually done in the team concept more often than not. I'm not sure if you play ball but if I have a great defender on me but I know I can beat him to the rack it makes me hesitant to drive if I know he has two help defenders waiting on me when I beat him and I know he's right behind me if I slow up. Sometimes Rose has to just take bad shots because the bulks offense is so bad. I think it's a combo of both. I think we both have valid points


He has to b/c he had no where else to go with a 6'8 version of himself guarding him. Listen, you do make a good point Lebron isnt THE best man on man defender but he IS one of the best. Nobody single handledy, day in day out, can stop elite NBA players like LBJ, Wade, Melo, Rose etc etc etc but they don't have too. Lebron did, though, in the ECF against DRose, for the most part and was a big part of the reason the HEAT won the series.

You say pple overrate him, i say you underrate him.

2doors
12-20-2011, 06:01 PM
Never said he wasn't a great defender. My point is if all Rose had to worry about just Lebron he'd get the best of him easily. You have to respect his shot and he has elite speed. The help D neutralized that. Heat game planned well against him. When I call some1 elite on defense I think of old Ron Artest. Lebron is good but I don't think he is at that level. Ron was a great individual and team defender. I think Lebron is a great team defender and a good individual defender.

you can say that about anyone, elite players like rose can not be guarded 1 on 1, you think prime artest can shut down lebron by himself hell no

Dolfan305
12-20-2011, 06:03 PM
simply the best player in the game

Lakeshow24KB
12-20-2011, 06:04 PM
I mean let's face it....all the Lebron haters (including me) know Lebron has amazing defense AND offense we just don't want to admit it. He has elite defense, period.

Dolfan305
12-20-2011, 06:05 PM
He didn't do this in the Finals and Marion locked him down but people are just gonna say "LeBron took the series off, he didn't want to win, Mavs just got lucky, etc..."

I'm not sleeping on that. I'm sleeping on his ability to win when it matters.

Do you understand that Dirk was labeled a choker and "couldn't win" for 10+ years? Do you not remember?

Dolfan305
12-20-2011, 06:07 PM
People need to just take off their hater goggles and see that Lebron is absolutely elite defensively, there's just no denying it. Any stat, advanced metric, highlight video, expert, or nba player will tell you so. Deal with it

Raps08-09 Champ
12-20-2011, 06:08 PM
I'm sorry but half of those defensive plays are just players missing shots. There were a couple of possessions where LeBron didn't even jump, he just put a hand up -- that's good defense??


The only way you can play good defense is if you jump? Even if you can contest the shot without jumping?

KeepMonta#8
12-20-2011, 06:10 PM
He didn't do this in the Finals and Marion locked him down but people are just gonna say "LeBron took the series off, he didn't want to win, Mavs just got lucky, etc..."

I'm not sleeping on that. I'm sleeping on his ability to win when it matters.

lol marion locked him down ahhahaha marions a good denfender but come on man HOMER TO THE MAX^^^^

PlezPlayDKnicks
12-20-2011, 06:19 PM
you can say that about anyone, elite players like rose can not be guarded 1 on 1, you think prime artest can shut down lebron by himself hell no

I think Artest in his prime could. He was fast and bullish strong and LbJ jumper isn't at it's highest potential yet. I do think Artest could. That was his calling card and every scorer feared him. He got under the skin of every1. Could Artest stop him every night , probably not. He prob contain him like how people say LBJ contains the elite. I just don't see LbJ as this shut down defender. I think he's great in spurts and plays excellent team defense. What more could you ask for from him. I just wouldn't call him elite with the other elite defenders of the past. I think people think he's elite because nobody plays defense anymore so a great defender is called elite. Of all the past elite defenders I would say LBJ is the weakest of all of them. He has better tools than all of them but I wouldn't say he was a better defender than prime Artest, Gary Payton, Pip,Jordan, Bowen, and maybe even Tayshaun Prince. I think the only person Prince couldn't guard was LbJ . Being the best over mediocre defenders make him a bit overrated. That's all I'm saying

BALLER71
12-20-2011, 06:21 PM
See: Derrick Rose against the Heat in 4th quarter.

PlezPlayDKnicks
12-20-2011, 06:24 PM
To be honest I barely see any legit difference between LbJ and Iggy on defense . LbJ just makes more highlight plays . And I never hear on this forum how elite on defense Iggy is. Lebron gets more credit because he is the star naturally but in all honestly they are very similar.

Matrix3132
12-20-2011, 06:28 PM
Do you understand that Dirk was labeled a choker and "couldn't win" for 10+ years? Do you not remember?

People questioned whether a dirk led team could win the championship but I don't people really thought of him as a choker, he's averaged about 26/10 in 124 playoff games. Last season wasn't even his best, in 01/02 he averaged 28/13 in 8 games, he just never had the right team around him

Ovratd1up
12-20-2011, 06:29 PM
anyone who understands the game of basketball and how to understand defensive metrics knows he is absolutely elite defensively. Easily the best two way player in the game. When you are a top 3 offensive player, and top 2 defensive player, you are awesome.

What does this mean? Are Nash and Paul ranked better than him?

thekmp211
12-20-2011, 06:32 PM
People questioned whether a dirk led team could win the championship but I don't people really thought of him as a choker, he's averaged about 26/10 in 124 playoff games. Last season wasn't even his best, in 01/02 he averaged 28/13 in 8 games, he just never had the right team around him

yeah people just pegged it on him incorrectly because he's the best player on the team. dirk, imo, is the best clutch scoring option in the league. i believe the numbers back this up, too. he's just never had the neccessary backup (until last season).

PlezPlayDKnicks
12-20-2011, 06:34 PM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IgySKNG67EY&feature=related

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z0ekIPmqJQE&feature=fvwre

Straight Man up d against two bonafide scorers

bholly
12-20-2011, 06:37 PM
Kobe shoots over Lebron
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ewewsd9x7_c

Carmelo Game winner over Lebron
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n_MY0qUt5CM

Rudy gay game winner over lebron
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Zlz1tMz_FCs

Jason Terry hits a three over lebron to ice the game
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Np3y0Hw-weM

T-mac embarrassing Lebron with crossover then shot
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KOu18W4EcI4

This is seriously your counterargument?

#1 - forces Kobe into a fadeaway mid-range 2.
#2 - Melo settles for a long 2.
#3 - forces Rudy into a driving, fading, 2.
#4 - Terry settles for a long 3.
#5 - it's an All Star game.

In each case (except the lolbad last one) he's forcing guys into pretty bad low percentage shots, and they happen to make them. If you really think forcing guys to settle for shots like that is bad defense, then I really don't know what to tell you.

HuRRiCaNeS324
12-20-2011, 06:39 PM
dp

HuRRiCaNeS324
12-20-2011, 06:40 PM
his stats aside, any player can put a video like that together...

Anyone can put up a video of someone effectively guarding PGs and Cs and the best offensive player in the game? No... they can't

Dolfan305
12-20-2011, 06:46 PM
People questioned whether a dirk led team could win the championship but I don't people really thought of him as a choker, he's averaged about 26/10 in 124 playoff games. Last season wasn't even his best, in 01/02 he averaged 28/13 in 8 games, he just never had the right team around him

Exactly, Dirk was still (unfairly) called a choker in the playoffs for years. Lebron has also been great in the playoffs. He averages 28, 8, and 7. and one year he averaged 35, 9 rebounds, and 7 assists.

Matrix3132
12-20-2011, 06:55 PM
Exactly, Dirk was still (unfairly) called a choker in the playoffs for years. Lebron has also been great in the playoffs. He averages 28, 8, and 7. and one year he averaged 35, 9 rebounds, and 7 assists.

Lebron also had a playoff game with the cavs where he didn't even try, never seen anything like it in professional/college sports, I don't remember who they were playing though

GhostfaceDrilla
12-20-2011, 06:58 PM
Do you understand that Dirk was labeled a choker and "couldn't win" for 10+ years? Do you not remember?

Yeah, and Dirk has never choked like LeBron has. He has always been clutch. He just hasn't had the teammates to help him out when it mattered before this year. He never had a Bosh. He never had a Wade who arguably is better than LeBron James.

xxplayerxx23
12-20-2011, 07:03 PM
lebron is a great defender,I only see him have trouble agaisnt melo rondo and durant. He has a lot of trouble with them he is an elite defender. On what he did against rose,he only guarded him in the 4th quater, Rose couldnt hit the step back jumper at all against him. Lebron guarded him tight I do not think he could lock rose up from the 1st quater on tho

Hustlenomics
12-20-2011, 07:08 PM
This is seriously your counterargument?

#1 - forces Kobe into a fadeaway mid-range 2.
#2 - Melo settles for a long 2.
#3 - forces Rudy into a driving, fading, 2.
#4 - Terry settles for a long 3.
#5 - it's an All Star game.

In each case (except the lolbad last one) he's forcing guys into pretty bad low percentage shots, and they happen to make them. If you really think forcing guys to settle for shots like that is bad defense, then I really don't know what to tell you.

they all seemed comfortable hitting those shots

xxplayerxx23
12-20-2011, 07:09 PM
I hate lebron more then the next guy but im so sick of hearing about him being a choke. I gurantee, everybody would want him on there team

GhostfaceDrilla
12-20-2011, 07:14 PM
I hate lebron more then the next guy but im so sick of hearing about him being a choke. I gurantee, everybody would want him on there team

No **** we'd all want him but for someone who gets hyped about being the greatest of all time, to get swept by the Spurs and have horrid stats for the player he is and then to have the epic fail Finals he did against Dallas, that's choking. Yeah, he'll probably end up with 1 or 2 rings but he is no where near Jordan or the greatet and never will be. He'll be in the 5-20 range when his career is over but he won't be Jordan esque wth 6 or 7 rings.

xxplayerxx23
12-20-2011, 07:21 PM
No **** we'd all want him but for someone who gets hyped about being the greatest of all time, to get swept by the Spurs and have horrid stats for the player he is and then to have the epic fail Finals he did against Dallas, that's choking. Yeah, he'll probably end up with 1 or 2 rings but he is no where near Jordan or the greatet and never will be. He'll be in the 5-20 range when his career is over but he won't be Jordan esque wth 6 or 7 rings.

He isnt the greatest of all time. He has the talent level to be the greatest ever to play this game. comeon really did you see the team he had in the first finals??Nobody he was the team carried them to the finals. No way he is to blame for that at all. Yes he choked here a little. But where was bosh? where was wade? how come they didnt quote on quote choke? they are capeable of carrying the team to a series win. he did amazing against boston and the bulls. I think he will win 3 all together. He is an amazing player agurably the best overall in the NBA, and he can play great defense

Supreme LA
12-20-2011, 07:22 PM
Okay, what's the point of this thread? Do basketball fans not know Lebron is a very good defender already? The guy is actually on a team now where he doesn't have to carry the offensive load and so none of this is really a surprise to anyone. Lebron is a great defender.

My problem with him has always been his lack of offensive skill and fundamentals. He can surely get all his points off of broken plays, fastbreaks, and easy put backs because of his size and athleticism, but he has yet to really shine offensively in the most crucial and highest pressure moments. Lebron is great, but he is still very limited offensively and has a long way and a lot of time to develop.

If he could shoot like Kevin Durant, a post game and footwork like Kobe, with his defense, we would be putting him right alongside MJ.

bdizzle
12-20-2011, 07:26 PM
Okay, what's the point of this thread? Do basketball fans not know Lebron is a very good defender already? The guy is actually on a team now where he doesn't have to carry the offensive load and so none of this is really a surprise to anyone. Lebron is a great defender.

My problem with him has always been his lack of offensive skill and fundamentals. He can surely get all his points off of broken plays, fastbreaks, and easy put backs because of his size and athleticism, but he has yet to really shine offensively in the most crucial and highest pressure moments. Lebron is great, but he is still very limited offensively and has a long way and a lot of time to develop.

If he could shoot like Kevin Durant, a post game and footwork like Kobe, with his defense, we would be putting him right alongside MJ.

He is still very limited offensively, yet he is clearly better than Kobe offensively... Why does it matter how he scores? Oh yeah, you're a Kobe fan. You just need to find a way to put LeBron down and make Kobe seem better.

xxplayerxx23
12-20-2011, 07:29 PM
He is still very limited offensively, yet he is clearly better than Kobe offensively... Why does it matter how he scores? Oh yeah, you're a Kobe fan. You just need to find a way to put LeBron down and make Kobe seem better.

Kobe is the better offensive player IMO

bdizzle
12-20-2011, 07:34 PM
Kobe is the better offensive player IMO

Based on what?

Supreme LA
12-20-2011, 07:34 PM
He is still very limited offensively, yet he is clearly better than Kobe offensively... Why does it matter how he scores? Oh yeah, you're a Kobe fan. You just need to find a way to put LeBron down and make Kobe seem better.

Wtf??? Did I not just statethe obvious?? Why am I a Lebron hater just because I say he is limited offensively?? Is it because I'm a fan of the Lakers? Some people...:facepalm:

Now you suggest Lebron is better than Kobe offensively?? At what?? At Kobe's age you certainly have an argument, but if we're talking in terms of offensive arsenal and skill, Kobe >>>>>Lebron by a mile.

My original post wasn't meant to bait you jerk. I can't even give Lebron a compliment and state the truth about his game without being called a hater because I'm a laker fan?? There are some of the most childish and ******** people in this forum I swear :confused:

xxplayerxx23
12-20-2011, 07:35 PM
[QUOTE=bdizzle;20207946]Based on what?[/QUOTE

kobe is more of an efficent scorer, Also Its pretty hard to compare Lebron in his prime offensivley and kobe at the end of his. Kobe in his prime was a lot better of an offensivley player the Bron

Gibby
12-20-2011, 07:50 PM
hows his D in the 4th?

just ask derrick rose.

2doors
12-20-2011, 07:51 PM
Okay, what's the point of this thread? Do basketball fans not know Lebron is a very good defender already? The guy is actually on a team now where he doesn't have to carry the offensive load and so none of this is really a surprise to anyone. Lebron is a great defender.

My problem with him has always been his lack of offensive skill and fundamentals. He can surely get all his points off of broken plays, fastbreaks, and easy put backs because of his size and athleticism, but he has yet to really shine offensively in the most crucial and highest pressure moments. Lebron is great, but he is still very limited offensively and has a long way and a lot of time to develop.

If he could shoot like Kevin Durant, a post game and footwork like Kobe, with his defense, we would be putting him right alongside MJ.

hes a different type of player, early in his career he tried to be a jordan copy, but thats isnt his game, lebron is the closest thing to magic johnson and i think thats who he models his game after.

2doors
12-20-2011, 07:54 PM
kobe is more of an efficent scorer, Also Its pretty hard to compare Lebron in his prime offensivley and kobe at the end of his. Kobe in his prime was a lot better of an offensivley player the Bron

actually lebron is the more efficent scorer, kobe is the more skilled scorer and has more weapons in his repetoire, but since offense is more than just scoring currently lebron is the better offensive player.

SeoulBeatz
12-20-2011, 07:55 PM
Lebron being unable to guard rose is a bad gauge of his perimeter defending.

I doubt there is anyone in the NBA above 6'6 who could stay in front of rose more than half the time. As a little guy who enjoys playing basketball regularly, i can tell you, if you have good quickness and handle and you are going up against a significantly bigger guy, you will be able to beat them off the dribble most of the time. That's just the way it works.

justinnum1
12-20-2011, 07:59 PM
[QUOTE=bdizzle;20207946]Based on what?[/QUOTE

kobe is more of an efficent scorer, Also Its pretty hard to compare Lebron in his prime offensivley and kobe at the end of his. Kobe in his prime was a lot better of an offensivley player the Bron

Had a much lower fg% than lebron

Supreme LA
12-20-2011, 08:12 PM
OMG. Can you guys not turn this into a Kobe vs Lebron thread???

Anybody who says Lebron is better than a prime Kobe offensively hasn't watched basketball for the past decade. :facepalm:

Let's move on now. Lebron is a GRREEAAAAT defender!!!!!

SportsFanatic10
12-20-2011, 08:15 PM
He isnt the greatest of all time. He has the talent level to be the greatest ever to play this game. comeon really did you see the team he had in the first finals??Nobody he was the team carried them to the finals. No way he is to blame for that at all. Yes he choked here a little. But where was bosh? where was wade? how come they didnt quote on quote choke? they are capeable of carrying the team to a series win. he did amazing against boston and the bulls. I think he will win 3 all together. He is an amazing player agurably the best overall in the NBA, and he can play great defense

just leading the finals in scoring while hurt. and rebounding and blocking shots like someone 5 inches taller than him.

Bruno
12-20-2011, 08:53 PM
hate how some of you guys actually motivate me to defend lebron.

LBJ is a top notch defensive wing, period.

RLundi
12-20-2011, 09:02 PM
The only way you can play good defense is if you jump? Even if you can contest the shot without jumping?

The highlight reel only showed missed shots, as in good defense results in missed shots, which is untrue. On a play or two, LeBron was clearly beaten and had no other recourse put to just simply put his hand up. On such occasions, just because the shot was missed doesn't mean the defense was good.

Please watch the video again if you'd like further reference.

Regardless, my original point was that I don't need a video of players missing shots while LeBron is guarding them to tell me he is a good defender.

RLundi
12-20-2011, 09:14 PM
Would you like me to check those #'s for you?


Please do.

Chronz
12-21-2011, 12:28 AM
Please do.
You really think players convert at a 66% rate? From anywhere on the field thats absurd, I took it as a blatant exaggeration and my response was a joke in itself but if your getting analytical on me then just what exactly am I looking up? Every Iso situation, every pull up midrange shot on Bron?

What kind of plays do you refer to?

bholly
12-21-2011, 12:32 AM
they all seemed comfortable hitting those shots

those are all low percentage shots. of course sometimes they go in and the player looks awesome and makes it look easy, but as a defender those are exactly the kind of shots you want your opponent taking.

again, if you think that's bad defense just because this time they happened to hit the shot then that's fine by me, i'm just glad you don't coach or play for my team.

RLundi
12-21-2011, 01:39 AM
You really think players convert at a 66% rate? From anywhere on the field thats absurd, I took it as a blatant exaggeration and my response was a joke in itself but if your getting analytical on me then just what exactly am I looking up? Every Iso situation, every pull up midrange shot on Bron?

What kind of plays do you refer to?

If you'd like to, knock yourself out.

My point was for every instance that a player doesn't get scored on, I could find two more instances that he does get scored on. And of course this is hyperbole -- in no way am I suggesting that on average, players score twice on every three possessions. There's really no need to use statistics so kinesthetically and literally try to quantify every abstract concept.

But as I previously stated, this video didn't change my opinion of LeBron's defense. It's stellar; wasn't this already a given?

Chronz
12-21-2011, 02:04 AM
they all seemed comfortable hitting those shots

They can look just as comfortable when they miss them too

thekmp211
12-21-2011, 02:22 AM
If you'd like to, knock yourself out.

My point was for every instance that a player doesn't get scored on, I could find two more instances that he does get scored on. And of course this is hyperbole -- in no way am I suggesting that on average, players score twice on every three possessions. There's really no need to use statistics so kinesthetically and literally try to quantify every abstract concept.

But as I previously stated, this video didn't change my opinion of LeBron's defense. It's stellar; wasn't this already a given?

i think most people understand that statistics are limited. that being said, they can also be very useful and synergy's defensive stats are pretty impressive in their scope.

Chronz
12-21-2011, 02:28 AM
If you'd like to, knock yourself out.
I dont see the point if the end result is that Bron still comes out looking elite.


My point was for every instance that a player doesn't get scored on, I could find two more instances that he does get scored on. And of course this is hyperbole -- in no way am I suggesting that on average, players score twice on every three possessions. There's really no need to use statistics so kinesthetically and literally try to quantify every abstract concept.
In that case, for every instance you find of them scoring on Bron, 99% of the league will get scored on with more frequency. Thus hes a better defender than just about everyone.


But as I previously stated, this video didn't change my opinion of LeBron's defense. It's stellar; wasn't this already a given?

Im speaking to those who say he isnt, Im glad you agree. This highlight reel isnt suppose to be anything other than a highlight reel.

DODGERS&LAKERS
12-21-2011, 02:47 AM
I dont see the point if the end result is that Bron still comes out looking elite.


In that case, for every instance you find of them scoring on Bron, 99% of the league will get scored on with more frequency. Thus hes a better defender than just about everyone.


Im speaking to those who say he isnt, Im glad you agree. This highlight reel isnt suppose to be anything other than a highlight reel.

Chronz, are their still people questioning his defense? I remember that being a knock on him when he was in his first year or two. But now, even the biggest Lebron hater has to recognize. At least I would hope so

Chronz
12-21-2011, 02:48 AM
Chronz, are their still people questioning his defense? I remember that being a knock on him when he was in his first year or two. But now, even the biggest Lebron hater has to recognize. At least I would hope so

They arent showing up for some reason

naps
12-21-2011, 03:31 AM
kobe is more of an efficent scorer

NO he's not. LeBron is more efficient.

RLundi
12-21-2011, 12:01 PM
i think most people understand that statistics are limited. that being said, they can also be very useful and synergy's defensive stats are pretty impressive in their scope.

I agree, they are useful but like you mentioned, limited. Statistics are inherently flawed in that they will never be able to account for everything and tell the full story. Not everything can be assigned a numerical value -- that's all I was saying. For every profound statistical development, especially in advanced metrics, there is probably an equally degenerative flaw.

I like statistics as much as the next person, but I try not to give it absolutism or undue credence.

RLundi
12-21-2011, 12:11 PM
In that case, for every instance you find of them scoring on Bron, 99% of the league will get scored on with more frequency. Thus hes a better defender than just about everyone.




Lol 95% of statistics are made up on the spot.

The 99% that you speak of, those are numbers I'd like to see if you have access to them. Not that I'm doubtful, I just think it'd be very interesting to consider.

You don't have to play good defense to have an opponent miss a shot; nor does good defense guarantee an opponent will miss a shot. So I think you'd be hard-pressed to affirm that 99% of players get scored on more than LeBron.

Andrew32
12-21-2011, 12:12 PM
Lebron will always be underrated because he is one of those players where people choose to focus on his failures instead of his successes.

He has been really good defensively over the last few seasons.

:clap:

beasted86
12-21-2011, 12:16 PM
I know. His D is amazing. But his ability to win when it matters most isn't there.


Which isn't a relevant opinion for this thread.

^This.

Start a new thread if you want to bash LeBron's offensive game, or his "winning ability".

thekmp211
12-21-2011, 01:58 PM
I agree, they are useful but like you mentioned, limited. Statistics are inherently flawed in that they will never be able to account for everything and tell the full story. Not everything can be assigned a numerical value -- that's all I was saying. For every profound statistical development, especially in advanced metrics, there is probably an equally degenerative flaw.

I like statistics as much as the next person, but I try not to give it absolutism or undue credence.

fair enough. but here's what you can derive from enough statistical evidence. if perimeter players are consistently, night after night after night, putting up statistically inferior numbers against bron compared to their personal averages, then it's safe to say that his presence is a reason for that.

combined with what you see on the court, which is a physical freak who looks dominant on defense.

nickdymez
12-21-2011, 02:17 PM
You know why there is no Andre Igudala defense video? Because you dont have to convince anyone he's a premier perimeter defender.

Hustlenomics
12-21-2011, 02:29 PM
you guys really love lebron, we didn't forget that he lost with dwyane wade on his team and the "chosen one" scored 8 points in a finals game

barreleffact
12-21-2011, 02:43 PM
anyone who understands the game of basketball and how to understand defensive metrics knows he is absolutely elite defensively. Easily the best two way player in the game. When you are a top 3 offensive player, and top 2 defensive player, you are awesome.

If that were at all true LBJ would be one of the best in history. Lebron is a great highlight defender and a solid overall defender. He is NOT a great textbook/fundamental defender regardless of what many synergy and TEAM defensive stats may imply. Guys like Bowen, Rodman, and Payton were, Battier, Tony Allen, and Iguodala are, etc. There are a myriad of defensive specialist that are better at defense than he. This is not a slight at him at all, but people VASTLY overrate his defense. The fact is no perimeter player will be a truly elite player on defense and have the endurance to carry an offense.

To those comparing him to Dwight, these are 2 different areas of importance and if you would prefer a defender that limits or stops one player as opposed to a defender that is tasked with limiting the other teams entire line-up then fine. Do that. Great players will not be stopped though ala Rudy Gay's buzzer beater over LBJ, KD shooting over LBJ, Melo, etc.

As to the highlight reel. Lebron played solid D in SOME of those highlights. Many if not most were just missed shots where the offensive player got the time, space, and look they required. As a purely defensive video, that was unimpressive. I know he has made far superior stops than all of those even if only looking at last season.

barreleffact
12-21-2011, 02:49 PM
The only way you can play good defense is if you jump? Even if you can contest the shot without jumping?

There's a difference. Putting a hand up or jumping don't accomplish much without the hand placement. He just seemed to stretch his hand in many of those clips just to force the shot above his arm. That is marginal. A great defender (Battier) ensures his hand either is in striking distance to alter the shot or is in the face of the shooter to obstruct his vision. Far more effective than a bluff.

barreleffact
12-21-2011, 03:00 PM
hes a different type of player, early in his career he tried to be a jordan copy, but thats isnt his game, lebron is the closest thing to magic johnson and i think thats who he models his game after.

How do you figure? I'm seriously interested as to why anyone suggests that, especially at this point in his career.

justinnum1
12-21-2011, 03:06 PM
you guys really love lebron, we didn't forget that he lost with dwyane wade on his team and the "chosen one" scored 8 points in a finals game

Nice off topic bait

2doors
12-21-2011, 03:37 PM
you guys really love lebron, we didn't forget that he lost with dwyane wade on his team and the "chosen one" scored 8 points in a finals game

you just mad cause bron whooped that celtic ***

Hustlenomics
12-21-2011, 03:56 PM
^ and didn't win a championship?

majmarcus
12-21-2011, 04:13 PM
Smh...I know u Bron Bron jock riders thinks he can walk on water & all.
But how's Lebron's ON BALL DEFENSE? How sensational is he when it comes to staying in front of elite ball handlers on a consistant basis, not just a possession or 2??

thekmp211
12-21-2011, 04:22 PM
Smh...I know u Bron Bron jock riders thinks he can walk on water & all.
But how's Lebron's ON BALL DEFENSE? How sensational is he when it comes to staying in front of elite ball handlers on a consistant basis, not just a possession or 2??

you realize that the current rules make it impossible for anyone to shut down elite perimeter players completely. rose, wade, lebron, kobe ect. are unstoppable with rules against hand checking.

with that said, he's one of the best on-ball defenders in the league. he's big, long, strong and quick. doesn't gamble as much as wade.

hater much?

Hawkeye15
12-21-2011, 04:31 PM
the level of maturity in the NBA forums is frightening. If this new generation is indeed how some of you act here, this country is going downhill faster than I thought.

justinnum1
12-21-2011, 04:34 PM
Most of it is fear.

2doors
12-21-2011, 04:34 PM
^ and didn't win a championship?

what does that have to do with you being mad about lebron raping your senior citizens and one-arm wonder

ChurcH
12-21-2011, 04:35 PM
Goes to show, start any thread about Lebron James it just turns into a massive 'anger' fest.

ChurcH
12-21-2011, 04:36 PM
^ and didn't win a championship?

29 other teams and their respective 12-15 players didn't win, either.

Swashcuff
12-21-2011, 04:45 PM
the level of maturity in the NBA forums is frightening. If this new generation is indeed how some of you act here, this country is going downhill faster than I thought.

I'm soooo glad that I was born in the late end of the 80s. Some of these guys here can't be any older and 10. Their level of ignorance/immaturity is astounding.

majmarcus
12-21-2011, 05:25 PM
you realize that the current rules make it impossible for anyone to shut down elite perimeter players completely. rose, wade, lebron, kobe ect. are unstoppable with rules against hand checking.

with that said, he's one of the best on-ball defenders in the league. he's big, long, strong and quick. doesn't gamble as much as wade.

hater much?[/QUOTE]

Dude, really? Wth does the rules have to do with a player MOVING THEIR FEET???

When theres a "Feet movement restriction rule" or a "Limited anticipation rule" in place, come holla at me bro. As for that hater much garbage. Im not even gonna bother to dignify that. The terribly over played "Hater" card is a common go to move when people like yourself is confronted with a truth they dont care to hear.
But its ok, I dont blame you. You clearly dont know any better. Youve fallen in line with the uniformed fad while being easily mislead & therefore pimped by the media & typical fans juice.

Its not too late to stop praying to Lebron. Accept that he too has flaws ok. Such as Defensively, 4th quarter shrinkage, mental midget syndrome, etc...

Good day sir...

Chronz
12-21-2011, 07:49 PM
Lol 95% of statistics are made up on the spot.

The 99% that you speak of, those are numbers I'd like to see if you have access to them. Not that I'm doubtful, I just think it'd be very interesting to consider.

You don't have to play good defense to have an opponent miss a shot; nor does good defense guarantee an opponent will miss a shot. So I think you'd be hard-pressed to affirm that 99% of players get scored on more than LeBron.
What stats? Im not showing you any stats, Im giving you rough estimates based on instantaneous brain calculations.

Chronz
12-21-2011, 07:50 PM
You know why there is no Andre Igudala defense video? Because you dont have to convince anyone he's a premier perimeter defender.
What if I told you I made an Iggy video?

Hustlenomics
12-21-2011, 08:13 PM
what does that have to do with you being mad about lebron raping your senior citizens and one-arm wonder

ok he finally beats the old celtics and still couldn't win a championship

2doors
12-21-2011, 10:18 PM
ok he finally beats the old celtics and still couldn't win a championship

doesnt matter if he won it or not, you're still mad he butt ****ed the celtics.

Swashcuff
12-22-2011, 01:26 PM
I have no issue with Chronz posting a vid to support his case in this circumstance for 2 reasons. First off there are many who say LeBron is overrated defensively and really isn't any good on that end of the floor other than doing chase down blocks from behind which couldn't be more wrong as that video showed. Also there is absolutely no doubt that the haters among us would have posted the very same vids posted by Hustlenomics as their counterargument to what Chronz said.

Its amazing how just the slightest mention of LeBron's name turns any thread into an instant hate fest.