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View Full Version : DeMarcus Cousins: stay with your team and be loyal



PleaseBeNice
12-13-2011, 11:48 PM
http://blogs.sacbee.com/sports/kings/archives/2011/12/cousins-offers.html

After Monday's morning practice, DeMarcus Cousins offered a few interesting observations about the trend of veteran NBA superstars leaving their original teams when they become free agents and/or informing management in advance that they have no intention of re-signing when their contracts expire - thus forcing teams to pursue trades for fear of relinquishing key assets and getting nothing in return. The most high profile examples, of course, are LeBron James, Deron Williams, Chris Paul and - maybe - Dwight Howard.

But let's just say that Cousins is more in tune with Oklahoma City's Kevin Durant. Venue shopping and jumping to a big market are nowhere on his list of aspirations.

"I'm not taking jabs at anybody or anything like that," said the Kings second-year center, "but to me, that's all part of being a competitor, of being a part of this sport. If you're the star player of that team, you should want to continue.

I mean, trying to join another - I mean, I'm not taking jabs at anybody - but to me that's kind of like taking the coward's way out. At the same time I respect you because you want to be a winner. But, me, being the type of person I am, I am wanting to lead my team. I want to stay with the group of guys I came in (into the league) with. I'm going to do what I gotta do to help my team win.
"I mean, that's how most of them (superstars) came up. They stuck with their teams til they got their chance. That's how I feel about it. Magic. Isiah Thomas .. I mean all those guys. They stuck with their teams."

The list includes Kobe Bryant, Dirk Nowitzki, Dwyane Wade, Larry Bird, Kevin McHale, Paul Pierce, Hakeem Olajuwon, John Stockton, among others, but the numbers are diminishing. (Michael Jordan, Scottie Pippen, Patrick Ewing and Karl Malone didn't change zip codes until the twilight of their careers, so I'd place them in this category as well).

When I suggested to Cousins that we check back when he becomes old and wise and an unrestricted free agent, he arched his eyebrows and grinned. But similar to his game, there is something decidedly old school about him. And he's only 21.

TylerSL
12-13-2011, 11:49 PM
Lets see what happens 8 years down the road. Easy to say that your first few years in the league.

billy17
12-13-2011, 11:53 PM
Brothas got serious character issues

Swashcuff
12-13-2011, 11:55 PM
Lets see what happens 8 years down the road. Easy to say that your first few years in the league.

8 years? Give the guy 2 more years and we'll see

TylerSL
12-13-2011, 11:56 PM
8 years? Give the guy 2 more years and we'll see

lol I did hear rumors that he and Tyreke Evans dont get along.

McPeak92
12-13-2011, 11:57 PM
He's going to New York, Chicago or LA. Don't you know everybody wants to play in those cities and cap rules don't apply to them.

Theyhateme459
12-13-2011, 11:58 PM
But let's just say that Cousins is more in tune with Oklahoma City's Kevin Durant. Venue shopping and jumping to a big market are nowhere on his list of aspirations.

KD's contract is comparable to LBJ's and Bosh 2nd contract in terms on length... So really KD have not done anything differently yet (Though I don't believe he will leave, that is just an assumption until the time comes)

FriedTofuz
12-13-2011, 11:59 PM
yo everyone says the same thing and then they just turn back on their words. It just takes one incident and demarcus will want to pack his bags LOL

itsripcity32
12-13-2011, 11:59 PM
i guess he's referring to all them "cowards" in new york and miami.

Iggz53
12-14-2011, 12:02 AM
None of the players you listed except for Dirk, Pierce, and Olajuwon had to stick it out with their team. They were on a championship team very early in their careers. I mean, you like to hear players saying that but it's not exactly a big deal to hear a 2nd year player talking like that.

FriedTofuz
12-14-2011, 12:03 AM
None of the players you listed except for Dirk, Pierce, and Olajuwon had to stick it out with their team. They were on a winning team very early in their careers. I mean, you like to hear players saying that but it's not exactly a big deal to hear a 2nd year player talking like that.

you cant forget tim duncan...

billy17
12-14-2011, 12:04 AM
Do you people not agree?

I play a team game, **** this team, im gonna go ball with some of my fellow superstars and try to monopolize the league..

Thats cool with you?

Im proud to be a fan of a small market team that did what they could in the early 2000s and made a great, entertaining run and is now trying to do the same.

D Roses Bulls
12-14-2011, 12:05 AM
the day I thought I'd ever agree with Cousins was the day hell froze over. I'm getting scared.

Sportfan
12-14-2011, 12:06 AM
lol I did hear rumors that he and Tyreke Evans dont get along.
tyreke for rondo :pray:

Swashcuff
12-14-2011, 12:06 AM
None of the players you listed except for Dirk, Pierce, and Olajuwon had to stick it out with their team. They were on a championship team very early in their careers. I mean, you like to hear players saying that but it's not exactly a big deal to hear a 2nd year player talking like that.

:clap:

Place half those players who "stuck" it out with their franchises on teams that were under horrible management that couldn't surround them with half the talent to win a title or even get anywhere near that and they'd bolt the first shot they got. Cousins should just keep his mouth shut before taking subliminals at players who are a million times better than he'd ever be.

pd1dish
12-14-2011, 12:07 AM
Lets see what happens 8 years down the road. Easy to say that your first few years in the league.

my thought exactly. easy to say now, but when hes being offered equal or more money to play for a better team, we will see what he does.

PleaseBeNice
12-14-2011, 12:07 AM
lol I did hear rumors that he and Tyreke Evans dont get along.

I guess you heard wrong. Tyreke was at DeMarcus's birthday dinner a little while ago. Thats more than you can say about Bosh not being invited to D Wades and LeBrons events.

billy17
12-14-2011, 12:07 AM
lol I did hear rumors that he and Tyreke Evans dont get along.

Wrong

Swashcuff
12-14-2011, 12:08 AM
you cant forget tim duncan...

Tim Duncan AKA one of the luckiest of them all? TD would have been a totally different TD had he been drafted by the Wolves instead of the Spurs.

D Roses Bulls
12-14-2011, 12:08 AM
None of the players you listed except for Dirk, Pierce, and Olajuwon had to stick it out with their team. They were on a championship team very early in their careers. I mean, you like to hear players saying that but it's not exactly a big deal to hear a 2nd year player talking like that.

Ummmm...... did you not see the team Jordan went to when he was drafted? the only reason they made the playoffs his second year was because He's Michael Freaking Jordan......

Iggz53
12-14-2011, 12:09 AM
Ummmm...... did you not see the team Jordan went to when he was drafted? the only reason they made the playoffs his second year was because He's Michael Freaking Jordan......

He never mentioned Jordan so I have no idea what your point is.

TylerSL
12-14-2011, 12:10 AM
Do you people not agree?

I play a team game, **** this team, im gonna go ball with some of my fellow superstars and try to monopolize the league..

Thats cool with you?

Im proud to be a fan of a small market team that did what they could in the early 2000s and made a great, entertaining run and is now trying to do the same.

If Cousins said this when he was 31 years old and had stayed with Sacramento this whole time, his words would hold more water. Cousins is entering his 2nd season and is 20 years old. Sacramento is the team that drafted him and they are a small market. He sees all these guys going to other teams while he is on a young small market team. But what happens when Sacramento makes the playoffs and go nowhere because there are clearly better teams out there? Its easy for him to say "I'll never leave my team" or "you shouldnt leave your team" now. But what happens in the next 10 years? What if he ends up leaving because he has never made it past the second round and he feels like he is really missing out? He would look like a hipocrate because he made these statements.

Swashcuff
12-14-2011, 12:10 AM
Do you people not agree?

I play a team game, **** this team, im gonna go ball with some of my fellow superstars and try to monopolize the league..

Thats cool with you?

Im proud to be a fan of a small market team that did what they could in the early 2000s and made a great, entertaining run and is now trying to do the same.

I fully disagree. At the end of the day no one player can make a franchise. If a franchise isn't capable of doing what needs to be done to put a winner on the floor then you do what you need to in your best interest. Its more than just a sport its a business.

GrandDaddyPurp
12-14-2011, 12:11 AM
Well at least if he does leave we can use this against him lol

CityofTreez
12-14-2011, 12:11 AM
Love Boogie!

I remember last year Brandon Jennings mentioned coming to Sac and forming their so called "Big 3". Probably won't happen, but it was something to hope for.

TylerSL
12-14-2011, 12:12 AM
I guess you heard wrong. Tyreke was at DeMarcus's birthday dinner a little while ago. Thats more than you can say about Bosh not being invited to D Wades and LeBrons events.

O maybe they are friends. I didnt know, a friend told me that. Guess it isnt true. I'm actually glad it isnt, I think Cousins could be the next Shaq.

D Roses Bulls
12-14-2011, 12:12 AM
He never mentioned Jordan so I have no idea what your point is.

I just saw this part and assumed he was talkin bout them....


(Michael Jordan, Scottie Pippen, Patrick Ewing and Karl Malone didn't change zip codes until the twilight of their careers, so I'd place them in this category as well).



My bad............

Iggz53
12-14-2011, 12:12 AM
Love Boogie!

I remember last year Brandon Jennings mentioned coming to Sac and forming their so called "Big 3". Probably won't happen, but it was something to hope for.

You're better off hoping he doesn't.

TylerSL
12-14-2011, 12:13 AM
Wrong

^ see above post

Swashcuff
12-14-2011, 12:13 AM
Ummmm...... did you not see the team Jordan went to when he was drafted? the only reason they made the playoffs his second year was because He's Michael Freaking Jordan......

There are extremely rare exceptions of players that love a franchise more than they love winning. MJ isn't one. If the Bulls never supported Mike the way they did as his career progressed I'm certain he'd possibly think about jumping ship. The Bulls did what they had to keep their superstar happy and both parties reaped the rewards. Loyalty is a two way street bro.

CityofTreez
12-14-2011, 12:14 AM
You're better off hoping he doesn't.

Yeah, I know. :laugh2:

Bravo95
12-14-2011, 12:15 AM
If Cousins said this when he was 31 years old and had stayed with Sacramento this whole time, his words would hold more water. Cousins is entering his 2nd season and is 20 years old. Sacramento is the team that drafted him and they are a small market. He sees all these guys going to other teams while he is on a young small market team. But what happens when Sacramento makes the playoffs and go nowhere because there are clearly better teams out there? Its easy for him to say "I'll never leave my team" or "you shouldnt leave your team" now. But what happens in the next 10 years? What if he ends up leaving because he has never made it past the second round and he feels like he is really missing out? He would look like a hipocrate because he made these statements.


I fully disagree. At the end of the day no one player can make a franchise. If a franchise isn't capable of doing what needs to be done to put a winner on the floor then you do what you need to in your best interest. Its more than just a sport its a business.
Yep. As with almost everything in life, perspective changes as you get older. You start thinking about what's really important and why you do what you do.

ink
12-14-2011, 12:15 AM
Do you people not agree?

I play a team game, **** this team, im gonna go ball with some of my fellow superstars and try to monopolize the league..

Thats cool with you?

Im proud to be a fan of a small market team that did what they could in the early 2000s and made a great, entertaining run and is now trying to do the same.

Apparently it's cool with a lot of NBA fans. Good to hear Cousins get it right. :clap:

I really think once the Beijing Olympic BFFs (Lebron, Bosh, Melo, Paul, Howard, etc) start to decline this superstar cowardice will die off. I'm hoping it's a one-off generational thing. The shallow generation of stars.

billy17
12-14-2011, 12:16 AM
^ see above post

See 8:07 PM on both posts. You said you may have been wrong, leave it at that. Rather than pump yourself up after youve been brought down

flea
12-14-2011, 12:16 AM
Tim Duncan AKA one of the luckiest of them all? TD would have been a totally different TD had he been drafted by the Wolves instead of the Spurs.

Uh what? He might not have that 1999 championship but he'd have the other 3. Duncan did what few NBA stars have ever done - win without another star. He would have gotten titles virtually anywhere.

D Roses Bulls
12-14-2011, 12:17 AM
There are extremely rare exceptions of players that love a franchise more than they love winning. MJ isn't one. If the Bulls never supported Mike the way they did as his career progressed I'm certain he'd possibly think about jumping ship. The Bulls did what they had to keep their superstar happy and both parties reaped the rewards. Loyalty is a two way street bro.

actually, I totally misunderstood what iggz was saying, it was my bad on my part. I know what you're saying though.

Raps08-09 Champ
12-14-2011, 12:17 AM
This guy has a big ego from what I hear.

Let's see what he does in the future.

ink
12-14-2011, 12:18 AM
Uh what? He might not have that 1999 championship but he'd have the other 3. Duncan did what few NBA stars have ever done - win without another star. He would have gotten titles virtually anywhere.

If there's one thing Duncan is not it's a coward. He would have behaved exactly the same way in any situation. That's the entire point of Duncan's career -- absolute reliability, dependability, and consistency.

Iggz53
12-14-2011, 12:18 AM
I just saw this part and assumed he was talkin bout them....

My bad............

Oh, I gocha. I'd put Jordan and Ewing there as well. Malone and Stockton had each other their entire career.

It was a different time back then. I won't pretend star players don't demand trades more than they used to because it appears they do, but very few elite players did have to stick around on mediocre teams for that long. You can argue both ways.

billy17
12-14-2011, 12:18 AM
Apparently it's cool with a lot of NBA fans. Good to hear Cousins get it right. :clap:

I really think once the Beijing Olympic BFFs (Lebron, Bosh, Melo, Paul, Howard, etc) start to decline this superstar cowardice will die off. I'm hoping it's a one-off generational thing. The shallow generation of stars.

Agreed, I think its a fad. No matter who teams up, there will always be good TEAMS (example: 2001-2002 Kings). It doesnt take a roster of superstars. But I wont deny that it is entertaining, and I do enjoy being a fan of their failure.

CityofTreez
12-14-2011, 12:18 AM
Apparently it's cool with a lot of NBA fans. Good to hear Cousins get it right. :clap:

I really think once the Beijing Olympic BFFs (Lebron, Bosh, Melo, Paul, Howard, etc) start to decline this superstar cowardice will die off. I'm hoping it's a one-off generational thing. The shallow generation of stars.

I can only hope, but they did leave a mark that can effect our future generations of NBA. Media is also a big part of it too.

seikou8
12-14-2011, 12:19 AM
He's going to New York, Chicago or LA. Don't you know everybody wants to play in those cities and cap rules don't apply to them.

yup you got that right

billy17
12-14-2011, 12:20 AM
This guy has a big ego from what I hear.

Let's see what he does in the future.

Name a successful professional athlete without an ego

billsftw
12-14-2011, 12:20 AM
Do you people not agree?

I play a team game, **** this team, im gonna go ball with some of my fellow superstars and try to monopolize the league..

Thats cool with you?

Im proud to be a fan of a small market team that did what they could in the early 2000s and made a great, entertaining run and is now trying to do the same.

well technically they would still be playing a team game...
only small market fans say crap like this
get.over.it

seikou8
12-14-2011, 12:20 AM
i guess he's referring to all them "cowards" in new york and miami.

amare is not a coward he came hear with no stars

MrfadeawayJB
12-14-2011, 12:20 AM
Lets see what happens 8 years down the road. Easy to say that your first few years in the league.

stole the words right from my mouth

CityofTreez
12-14-2011, 12:21 AM
This guy has a big ego from what I hear.

Let's see what he does in the future.

I will admit.

He is a cocky, confident youngster, but I don't mind that on my team. We've been missing that (swagger, or whatever you call it) since Artest left.

billy17
12-14-2011, 12:22 AM
well technically they would still be playing a team game...
only small market fans say crap like this
get.over.it

You dont understand my words.

And I am over it, I love being a Kings fans, and I love hating the Heat

TylerSL
12-14-2011, 12:23 AM
See 8:07 PM on both posts. You said you may have been wrong, leave it at that. Rather than pump yourself up after youve been brought down

?

ink
12-14-2011, 12:26 AM
I can only hope, but they did leave a mark that can effect our future generations of NBA. Media is also a big part of it too.

Thing that is mind blowing is how many fans bought into the "priority on winning" bull ****.

jackiemoon33
12-14-2011, 12:26 AM
great comment by dc. so very very true. take away miami, lakers and knicks fand opinions. who wants a league where there are 3-4 teams that generally make the final and never rebuild. afl is a prime example of a great sport where anyone can win and everyone has to rebuild at times. good comments by dc, so sick of seeing big market teams win every single year.

Swashcuff
12-14-2011, 12:28 AM
Uh what? He might not have that 1999 championship but he'd have the other 3. Duncan did what few NBA stars have ever done - win without another star. He would have gotten titles virtually anywhere.

What? Manu has a case as a top 10 SG ever and is easily a top 100 player all time to call him or rather not call him a star is utterly ridiculous. Also look at TD's system, his head coach his support everything. He fell into a perfect situation for success. Place him on another franchise and he would not be anywhere as accomplished as he is today and had that franchise not done a good job of supporting him he would in all likeliness given them the boot as well.

ink
12-14-2011, 12:33 AM
What? Manu has a case as a top 10 SG ever and is easily a top 100 player all time to call him or rather not call him a star is utterly ridiculous. Also look at TD's system, his head coach his support everything. He fell into a perfect situation for success. Place him on another franchise and he would not be anywhere as accomplished as he is today and had that franchise not done a good job of supporting him he would in all likeliness given them the boot as well.

One word: character. Another word: integrity. Duncan is the type of player who would have been exactly the same if he had played for the Spurs or the Clippers. It's just how he's wired. And if you aren't aware of that you haven't watched his career. Many didn't. They were too busy watching the lesser stars make noise about themselves.

CeeDub15
12-14-2011, 12:38 AM
This did make me respect Cousins a lot more. Hopefully he goes through with this too.

Swashcuff
12-14-2011, 12:38 AM
You know what's utterly ridiculous about this whole loyalty BULLCRAP is that the players always get the lousy end of the stick. Case in point Albert Pujols recently leaving the Cards. When will NBA fans realize that professional sports is just that a PROFESSION. This is all a business and loyalty has to go BOTH ways.

Those still hating on the Heat players for joining forces have serious issues understanding the basic concept of freedom of choice. If you had the opportunity to leave your job to go to a higher paying one with more perks in a comfortable environment with great co-workers, which would lighten your workload and your family is in full agreement you'd do it in a millisecond.

Loyalty in professional sports today is overrated and a whole bunch of garbage. Sure it sounds and looks good for a players legacy but what's even better for a player's legacy than loyalty is using your brain and doing what is beneficial in the short term and the long run.

MassoDio
12-14-2011, 12:40 AM
I love hearing this from a young player with lots of potential. It remains to be seen if he holds true to it. I really hope he does because I wish more players had this mentality. It is easy to say when you are only in your second year though.

Iggz53
12-14-2011, 12:42 AM
What? Manu has a case as a top 10 SG ever and is easily a top 100 player all time to call him or rather not call him a star is utterly ridiculous. Also look at TD's system, his head coach his support everything. He fell into a perfect situation for success. Place him on another franchise and he would not be anywhere as accomplished as he is today and had that franchise not done a good job of supporting him he would in all likeliness given them the boot as well.

I love Manu but in 02-03, Duncan pretty much did it himself. He didn't have anything close to another star next to him, both Manu and Parker were just starting out.

Swashcuff
12-14-2011, 12:43 AM
One word: character. Another word: integrity. Duncan is the type of player who would have been exactly the same if he had played for the Spurs or the Clippers. It's just how he's wired. And if you aren't aware of that you haven't watched his career. Many didn't. They were too busy watching the lesser stars make noise about themselves.

One word that trumps all that MONEY. If you don't understand that then stop following pro sports. If you seriously think Tim Duncan would spend his entire career with a team that wasn't beneficial to him, his family and his legacy then you must have a few screws loose. All the integrity and character in the world would not make up for the incompetence of an organization to prove that they actually value everything you do for them.

One of the best motivational techniques in any workplace is individual empowerment, if Duncan goes to a franchise where he doesn't feel empowered he'd see no reason to be loyal to them.

Do you really think TD would be loyal to someone who's willing to stab him in his back the first chance they get? The man has an agent for a reason. If he was so loyal and had that much integrity he would have taken WAYYY less money to play so as to help his franchise do what they have to do to win this past season.

SwatTeam
12-14-2011, 12:44 AM
you have to become a superstar first before you throw in your 2 cents about what superstars should do. I'm not saying Cousins is a bad player, he has a lot of potential to be a good one - but he isn't a superstar in this league right now so I don't care what he has to say about what superstars who anchor teams like to do.

besides, his @$$ is going to be playing for the Anaheim Kings next year. What loyalty is that? Why not speak up about management and how they're shafting the fans in Sactown. Ridiculous, we just get a bunch of morons here B%^&hing about player loyalty to teams when the team is about to shoot deuces to move south to get more cash. HAHAHA you guys are a joke.

Tmath
12-14-2011, 12:45 AM
A lot more players would get their jersey's retired if they stayed loyal.

Swashcuff
12-14-2011, 12:46 AM
I love Manu but in 02-03, Duncan pretty much did it himself. He didn't have anything close to another star next to him, both Manu and Parker were just starting out.

Well he was a rookie that year just coming into his own, and while I do agree that Duncan was the driving force behind that team my point still stands since TD has had help during the course of his career. The poster I was responding two wasn't dissecting each of his championship seasons but rather looking at them as a whole.

Lidz
12-14-2011, 12:46 AM
This "stay loyal" thing is such bull. It's only one-sided. Owners and fans asks for their superstars to "stay loyal" but as soon as the player have 2 or 3 bad seasons and the team trades them it's "just business".

Iggz53
12-14-2011, 12:49 AM
Well he was a rookie that year just coming into his own, and while I do agree that Duncan was the driving force behind that team my point still stands since TD has had help during the course of his career. The poster I was responding two wasn't dissecting each of his championship seasons but rather looking at them as a whole.

Okay, I can agree with that. Everyone has to have some kind of help. I do think guys like Dirk, Hakeem, Duncan, Abdul Jabbar, Barry, etc however have a special place in NBA history for being able to win both championships and many more playoff series with very little help around them (compared to other stars).

Swashcuff
12-14-2011, 12:53 AM
Okay, I can agree with that. Everyone has to have some kind of help. I do think guys like Dirk, Hakeem, Duncan, Abdul Jabbar, Barry, etc however have a special place in NBA history for being able to win both championships and many more playoff series with very little help around them (compared to other stars).

IMO the most amazing of them all Barry since unlike all those rest he wasn't a big and his supporting cast was probably the worst of them all.

Randy West
12-14-2011, 12:53 AM
The Maloof's are broke, well at least as far as NBA owners go they are. If the team is not under new ownership or gets some type of financial backing they won't be able to overpay to keep you.

This statement will be brought up when he signs with Dallas or LA during his free agency.

MassoDio
12-14-2011, 12:55 AM
You know what's utterly ridiculous about this whole loyalty BULLCRAP is that the players always get the lousy end of the stick. Case in point Albert Pujols recently leaving the Cards. When will NBA fans realize that professional sports is just that a PROFESSION. This is all a business and loyalty has to go BOTH ways.

Those still hating on the Heat players for joining forces have serious issues understanding the basic concept of freedom of choice. If you had the opportunity to leave your job to go to a higher paying one with more perks in a comfortable environment with great co-workers, which would lighten your workload and your family is in full agreement you'd do it in a millisecond.

Loyalty in professional sports today is overrated and a whole bunch of garbage. Sure it sounds and looks good for a players legacy but what's even better for a player's legacy than loyalty is using your brain and doing what is beneficial in the short term and the long run.

While I don't disagree that players should have freedom, the problem is who the loyalty should be to.

The fans are the ones who shell out the money that pays for these players contracts, yet there is no consideration for the fans from these star players. They know that they will have fans where ever they go. They are fine with alienating the fans of the city they are leaving. That is the only problem I have with it.

It's not as if the Cavs and the Magic have/did not try to put players around their stars. Those franchises did. They didn't do the best job of it, but they did try. And FAs where not clamoring to go to Cleveland. That is where the players choosing made it difficult for the Cavs to put good.great players around LeBron. That isn't the organization's fault, and it wasn't LeBron's fault. It is the problem that these small market teams face in trying to keep their star players, no matter what they TRY to do. This is where there has to be some consideration on the players' part. I don't fault LeBron for leaving, or for wanting a better situation. ( I think the way he did it was disgusting, but leaving was his choice)

The players need to understand that small markets are part of this league, and part of what makes the league successful. If they continue to alienate those teams, and the fans of those teams, it can have a damaging long term affect. The old "He can make more money in a large market" is now null due to the advancements in mass media. So it is about other things like comfort, playing with friends (rather than wanting to beat the hell out of their friends, which many of the stars of the past wanted to do, and what many fans grew up watching and enjoying), weather, etc. The problem with these things is that these guys make enough money that average fans don't feel sorry for them not having all of those things. Fans can't afford to demand all of those things. So it seems petty.

People who want loyalty from the sports figures they root for, idolize, etc, is not wrong. You don't have to agree, but they are not wrong. It may not be the way it works in today's sports, but that doesn't mean that FANS should stop hoping for it. And there is no reason to chastise fans thinking that it would make the sport better.

Kashmir13579
12-14-2011, 12:58 AM
This guy is an idiot.

Swashcuff
12-14-2011, 01:02 AM
While I don't disagree that players should have freedom, the problem is who the loyalty should be to.

The fans are the ones who shell out the money that pays for these players contracts, yet there is no consideration for the fans from these star players. They know that they will have fans where ever they go. They are fine with alienating the fans of the city they are leaving. That is the only problem I have with it.

It's not as if the Cavs and the Magic have/did not try to put players around their stars. Those franchises did. They didn't do the best job of it, but they did try. And FAs where not clamoring to go to Cleveland. That is where the players choosing made it difficult for the Cavs to put good.great players around LeBron. That isn't the organization's fault, and it wasn't LeBron's fault. It is the problem that these small market teams face in trying to keep their star players, no matter what they TRY to do. This is where there has to be some consideration on the players' part. I don't fault LeBron for leaving, or for wanting a better situation. ( I think the way he did it was disgusting, but leaving was his choice)

The players need to understand that small markets are part of this league, and part of what makes the league successful. If they continue to alienate those teams, and the fans of those teams, it can have a damaging long term affect. The old "He can make more money in a large market" is now null due to the advancements in mass media. So it is about other things like comfort, playing with friends (rather than wanting to beat the hell out of their friends, which many of the stars of the past wanted to do, and what many fans grew up watching and enjoying), weather, etc. The problem with these things is that these guys make enough money that average fans don't feel sorry for them not having all of those things. Fans can't afford to demand all of those things. So it seems petty.

People who want loyalty from the sports figures they root for, idolize, etc, is not wrong. You don't have to agree, but they are not wrong. It may not be the way it works in today's sports, but that doesn't mean that FANS should stop hoping for it. And there is no reason to chastise fans thinking that it would make the sport better.

I never said it was wrong nor have I ever chastised anyone for thinking it because I myself wish every time I see Allen Iverson that he would have spent his entire career with the 76ers won a title and retire with us.

Why should an athlete be loyal to us however. Because we support them by buying the memorabilia? They didn't sign a contract with us they signed one with the franchise/league and whether or not we're the ones who generate the revenue it doesn't make a difference because they are in no way shape or form obligated to us. No way. Just because you are drafted to a team doesn't mean that you have to stay there your entire career.

Does loyalty make the sport better? That's left to be seen. It makes for a better story which is what we fans love.

Swashcuff
12-14-2011, 01:04 AM
Question to all. Who do you think Dirk is more loyal to? Mark Cuban or the Dallas Mavericks? I'd venture to guess that Mark Cuban more so than the city of Dallas, its fans and the team itself was/is more impactful on Dirk's decision to tough it out.

PacersForLife
12-14-2011, 01:05 AM
Do you people not agree?

I play a team game, **** this team, im gonna go ball with some of my fellow superstars and try to monopolize the league..

Thats cool with you?

Im proud to be a fan of a small market team that did what they could in the early 2000s and made a great, entertaining run and is now trying to do the same.

:clap:

DerekRE_3
12-14-2011, 01:06 AM
Boogie is awesome. It's a shame he gets a bad rap and ignorant people buy into it.

PleaseBeNice
12-14-2011, 01:06 AM
This guy is an idiot.

Hell of a response

jrm2054
12-14-2011, 01:07 AM
This guy is just off. His behavior will be his downfall. I'm sure he would jump ship given the chance to play for a contender let's ask him this in 8 years if he is still in the league

DerekRE_3
12-14-2011, 01:09 AM
This guy is just off. His behavior will be his downfall. I'm sure he would jump ship given the chance to play for a contender let's ask him this in 8 years if he is still in the league

:laugh2: There's that ignorance I was talking about.

MassoDio
12-14-2011, 01:10 AM
I never said it was wrong nor have I ever chastised anyone for thinking it because I myself wish every time I see Allen Iverson that he would have spent his entire career with the 76ers won a title and retire with us.

Why should an athlete be loyal to us however. Because we support them by buying the memorabilia? They didn't sign a contract with us they signed one with the franchise/league and whether or not we're the ones who generate the revenue it doesn't make a difference because they are in no way shape or form obligated to us. No way. Just because you are drafted to a team doesn't mean that you have to stay there your entire career.

Does loyalty make the sport better? That's left to be seen. It makes for a better story which is what we fans love.

Sorry...the entire post I quoted seemed very much like a chastising of those who believe in loyalty in sports. If it wasn't...my bad. It just had that tone dripping off of it for me.

And I never said that they have an obligation to the fans, I said they should have some consideration for them. They have way to easy of a time shunning the fans that invested in them monetarily and emotionally. Are they obligated, absolutely not, just I am not obligated to my clients to do what is best for them, only what is best for me. But does having loyalty to my clients make business better. Absolutely.

My whole point is basically that the lack of loyalty in sports today is disturbing. These guys make an obscene amount of money that the fans generate, and they are the only ones that are always forgotten. And I am talking owners as well. The direction of athlete and owner mentality is disturbing.

Unfortunately for me....I am too hooked on the sport to give it up. Call me a glutton for punishment I guess.

Lakers + Giants
12-14-2011, 01:13 AM
Easy to say when you've only been in the league for a year. .

PleaseBeNice
12-14-2011, 01:14 AM
So many people have something against this kid like he ****ed their mom. Inb4 delonte west reference.

billsftw
12-14-2011, 01:15 AM
You dont understand my words.

And I am over it, I love being a Kings fans, and I love hating the Heat

and no1 cares about what you love or hate :)

CousinsEvansDUO
12-14-2011, 01:31 AM
Cousins will be the greatest center in the HISTORY of the Sacramento Kings. He will stay with this franchise and carry us to many, many, MANY championships.

JLynn943
12-14-2011, 01:36 AM
Well, I hope he truly feels like that. I'd love to have him stay in Sacramento and develop into the player he can be.

SA5195
12-14-2011, 01:39 AM
Alot of players state this. But after a few years of defeat, they pick 3 places of where they want to be traded to lol.

marj987
12-14-2011, 01:39 AM
Lol at the kings fans. That time of the month right before the season starts.

CousinsEvansDUO
12-14-2011, 01:42 AM
Lol at the kings fans. That time of the month right before the season starts.

Lol at the Mavs fan. Your franchise is about to go into turmoil as your 40year old average age team is about to sink in the dust while my franchise rises, overcomes all obstacles and becomes a top team in not just the west but across the whole league I suggest you STFU.

PleaseBeNice
12-14-2011, 01:48 AM
Lol at the Mavs fan. Your franchise is about to go into turmoil as your 40year old average age team is about to sink in the dust while my franchise rises, overcomes all obstacles and becomes a top team in not just the west but across the whole league I suggest you STFU.

LMAO :hi5:

PleaseBeNice
12-14-2011, 01:49 AM
Lol at the kings fans. That time of the month right before the season starts.

I'm sorry we're excited for our team for the first time in about 5 years. Excuse us.

marj987
12-14-2011, 01:50 AM
Lol at the Mavs fan. Your franchise is about to go into turmoil as your 40year old average age team is about to sink in the dust while my franchise rises, overcomes all obstacles and becomes a top team in not just the west but across the whole league I suggest you STFU.

Aren't you the guy that used 2k12 to prove why Demarcus Cousins will become the best center in the league?

ink
12-14-2011, 01:57 AM
One word that trumps all that MONEY. If you don't understand that then stop following pro sports. If you seriously think Tim Duncan would spend his entire career with a team that wasn't beneficial to him, his family and his legacy then you must have a few screws loose. All the integrity and character in the world would not make up for the incompetence of an organization to prove that they actually value everything you do for them.

One of the best motivational techniques in any workplace is individual empowerment, if Duncan goes to a franchise where he doesn't feel empowered he'd see no reason to be loyal to them.

Do you really think TD would be loyal to someone who's willing to stab him in his back the first chance they get? The man has an agent for a reason. If he was so loyal and had that much integrity he would have taken WAYYY less money to play so as to help his franchise do what they have to do to win this past season.

One word that trumps all that: koolaid. Seems you've been drinking a lot of it cause that is just the same old same old justification we hear from star followers. A lot of the athletes people worship are young and say a lot of very stupid things to justify themselves. Unfortunately a lot of fans of these guys are even younger and just repeat their BS ad nauseum. Kool aid.

Yes I think players like Nash, Duncan, Hill, etc would be loyal regardless. That's the way uncynical people are made. You don't think all the class acts in the league haven't had their share of crap to deal with? Of course they do. But they're mature and intelligent enough, not to mention that they have the depth of character to understand how to rise above that stuff.

Oh and regarding "individual empowerment": it's a team sport. A good coach knows how to motivate and empower his team. ALL of these athletes are well paid. So, let them get on with it and stop whining.

Lakers + Giants
12-14-2011, 01:58 AM
Aren't you the guy that used 2k12 to prove why Demarcus Cousins will become the best center in the league?

LMAO:hi5:

JLynn943
12-14-2011, 01:58 AM
Lol at the kings fans. That time of the month right before the season starts.

Whether you'll admit it or not, the Kings have some good young talent that (with proper development) should make them contenders sometime soon. Not this year, but a year or 2 from now...

BlondeBomber41
12-14-2011, 02:08 AM
I wish all NBA players truly felt this way, the league would be so much better.

Sactown
12-14-2011, 02:21 AM
:clap::clap::clap:

Aust
12-14-2011, 02:22 AM
Lets see what happens 8 years down the road. Easy to say that your first few years in the league.

Exactly. I'd want out to if I had absolutely NO FAITH in my FO to make good decisions. If a team continues to make terrible decisions from coaching, to players and contracts, then I understand a players frustration


Brothas got serious character issues

Yep

hgtiger32
12-14-2011, 02:38 AM
It would be nice to see him along with their other young talented players stay there for good.

*This also shows me that maybe a bunch of the younger guys that are new to the league aren't real big fans of what's happening with players going to big markets because they see what kind of reaction occurs from fans.

Would be nice to see. One can hope...

ink
12-14-2011, 02:45 AM
It would be nice to see him along with their other young talented players stay there for good.

*This also shows me that maybe a bunch of the younger guys that are new to the league aren't real big fans of what's happening with players going to big markets because they see what kind of reaction occurs from fans.

Would be nice to see. One can hope...

This is why I've been saying that this super team bull **** may begin and end with the members of the 2008 Redeem Team.

KingsMadness44
12-14-2011, 02:45 AM
i think its funny how all these fans on other teams im going to assume big market teams are bashing us Kings fans for showing our team and player support. Say what you want about us but we are LOYAL no matter what the case is! Win or Lose we are Kings fans for life

I dont think most of you would stand by your team if they went through half as many ups and downs as our fan base has gone through

abe_froman
12-14-2011, 02:47 AM
there should be some, and if he pans out i'd like him to be loyal to kings.sac have good fanbase

5ass
12-14-2011, 02:47 AM
its nice to hear that, i really think he's misunderstood. He's a decent person, IMO. I dont know him personally, but from what ive heard from him and of him hes decent guy

naps
12-14-2011, 02:58 AM
http://blogs.sacbee.com/sports/kings/archives/2011/12/cousins-offers.html


Whoever stuck with their own team had great great teams. DeMarcus Cousins, you need to make yourself at least a regular all star before you talk like this. Talk to when you put on those same socks. See what the **** you do.

flea
12-14-2011, 03:01 AM
What? Manu has a case as a top 10 SG ever and is easily a top 100 player all time to call him or rather not call him a star is utterly ridiculous. Also look at TD's system, his head coach his support everything. He fell into a perfect situation for success. Place him on another franchise and he would not be anywhere as accomplished as he is today and had that franchise not done a good job of supporting him he would in all likeliness given them the boot as well.

Rofl what? You're the first person I've ever heard call Ginobili a top 10 shooting guard ever. If he were that dynamic of a player he wouldn't have spent his career as a 6th man. You can whine about Pop's system all you want - he's no more a top 10 shooting guard than Lamar Odom is a top 10 power forward. Ginobili is a good player sure, but he's not a star unless you're Argentinian or something. He's lucky to be a top 25 shooting guard of all time.

lol, please
12-14-2011, 03:02 AM
Too bad Lebron doesn't understand the concept of loyalty.:rolleyes:

thephoenixson28
12-14-2011, 03:08 AM
Just wait until he is in trade rumors

PleaseBeNice
12-14-2011, 03:12 AM
I really dont get why people could be upset at what he said.

billsftw
12-14-2011, 03:17 AM
Too bad Lebron doesn't understand the concept of loyalty.:rolleyes:

lol i dont think he cares

ChurcH
12-14-2011, 03:18 AM
Did not expect this coming from his mouth tbh...

billsftw
12-14-2011, 03:18 AM
I really dont get why people could be upset at what he said.

because hes a sophomore
he's a know it all who thinks he knows what loyalty in the NBA means

iam brett favre
12-14-2011, 03:23 AM
Yes :clap: he just became one of my favorite players

PleaseBeNice
12-14-2011, 03:28 AM
because hes a sophomore
he's a know it all who thinks he knows what loyalty in the NBA means

DAMN! You are ****ing PISSED at something dude. Did you have a bad day?

Sactown
12-14-2011, 03:45 AM
because hes a sophomore
he's a know it all who thinks he knows what loyalty in the NBA means

And WTF are you!? An NBA veteran? :facepalm:

ichitownclowni
12-14-2011, 08:27 AM
He's going to New York, Chicago or LA. Don't you know everybody wants to play in those cities and cap rules don't apply to them.

Please elaborate

billsftw
12-14-2011, 08:47 AM
And WTF are you!? An NBA veteran? :facepalm:

did i say i knew anything about loyalty in the NBA?
do you honestly think these players care about you guys?
they're there for the money and the fame, and ultimately for themselves

billsftw
12-14-2011, 08:48 AM
Please elaborate

he means these teams manage to sign players whilst being over the cap, whereas small market teams are under the cap and are losing players at the same time
technically it is within the rules of the game, but it has ethical question marks

Swashcuff
12-14-2011, 08:51 AM
Rofl what? You're the first person I've ever heard call Ginobili a top 10 shooting guard ever. If he were that dynamic of a player he wouldn't have spent his career as a 6th man. You can whine about Pop's system all you want - he's no more a top 10 shooting guard than Lamar Odom is a top 10 power forward. Ginobili is a good player sure, but he's not a star unless you're Argentinian or something. He's lucky to be a top 25 shooting guard of all time.

Well if you were around basketball circles more often and understand something about the game of basketball you'd never say something like this. I don't think he's top 10 but MANY great basketball minds (including the most respected poster on this site Chronz) do think he is.

Swashcuff
12-14-2011, 09:17 AM
One word that trumps all that: koolaid. Seems you've been drinking a lot of it cause that is just the same old same old justification we hear from star followers. A lot of the athletes people worship are young and say a lot of very stupid things to justify themselves. Unfortunately a lot of fans of these guys are even younger and just repeat their BS ad nauseum. Kool aid.

Great. You just proved exactly how narrow minded you are.

Its quite simple but someone who isn't willing to see the profession for what it is will never be open to anything other than what feeds their beliefs.

Justification? Who's trying to justify anything? A man makes a CHOICE. Aren't you guys granted that in American? Freedom of choice? So why does he or I have to justify anything to anyone when its his decision of whom he wants to play with?


Yes I think players like Nash, Duncan, Hill, etc would be loyal regardless. That's the way uncynical people are made. You don't think all the class acts in the league haven't had their share of crap to deal with? Of course they do. But they're mature and intelligent enough, not to mention that they have the depth of character to understand how to rise above that stuff.

All of this is just opinion based on public perception. How do you know this about these players? Are you in these players mind. You are really something else if you think a player is willing to squander his career for a franchise who doesn't car to at least show that they care. You'd put your head on a block for a man you've never met? :pity: The epitome of a delusional sports fan.

You put any of those classy veterans on a franchise who shows them that they not only don't care about winning but they really aren't seeking that player's best interest and I guarantee word would start coming out of their camp that they want to be shipped out of town.

Wasn't Albert Pujols one of those classy and uncynical people? Well why isn't he with the Cards?


Oh and regarding "individual empowerment": it's a team sport. A good coach knows how to motivate and empower his team. ALL of these athletes are well paid. So, let them get on with it and stop whining.

What? Where do the coaches come into all of this? Aren't we talking about the interrelations between a franchise and their players? Either way you've stared off tangent but back on track for a moment here. What is a team made up of? Players. What is a player? And individual. Team empowerment would then mean that each player is an equal in the basketball world which couldn't be more wrong.

I can honestly say that I am in no way surprised that you brought their pay into the equation. Again I ask. If Tim Duncan, Grant Hill, Steve Nash etc are so loyal why not play for much less?

Guys really need to understand that loyalty to an organization in the world of professional sports today is utter BULLCRAP because the vast majority of the time the organization is not loyal to them.

Until posters like Ink understand that loyalty is a two way street they'd never be able to change their view on this.

ciaban
12-14-2011, 09:20 AM
well this should make king fans happy, That and give david stern a boner, if he can still get thous lol

RLundi
12-14-2011, 09:30 AM
What? Manu has a case as a top 10 SG ever and is easily a top 100 player all time to call him or rather not call him a star is utterly ridiculous. Also look at TD's system, his head coach his support everything. He fell into a perfect situation for success. Place him on another franchise and he would not be anywhere as accomplished as he is today and had that franchise not done a good job of supporting him he would in all likeliness given them the boot as well.

:laugh2:

I know you said something about Chronz, who I respect as well, but this is egregiously false. What on earth is your justification for making such a statement? Shock value?

Please be so kind as to post your list of the top 10 shooting guards of all time then.

thekmp211
12-14-2011, 10:22 AM
why anyone cares what cousins thinks about a topic like this -- is beyond me.

nrwskinny
12-14-2011, 10:39 AM
Olajuwon finished His career with the Toronto Raptors....

James Dolan
12-14-2011, 11:05 AM
Imagine if Demarcus had played in college with 4 other future nba players.
This would seem incredibly hypocritical. Good thing he didn't!

James Dolan
12-14-2011, 11:10 AM
Wow. I can't fathom how tough it was for Magic to stay with the Los
Angeles Lakers. He had to have a lot of intestinal fortitude.

Hawkeye15
12-14-2011, 11:22 AM
Its great to read that, but seriously, what player who has 1 year under their belt wouldn't say this? Lets see in a couple of years what his opinion is.

LongIslandIcedZ
12-14-2011, 11:33 AM
I love the attitude. I understand there comes a point in time when everyone has to move on. I realize how impractical it is, but I love the idea of guys that were drafted by teams just stayed on their teams. I know my team is guilty of it, but I hate the idea of the star players teaming up to make getting a ring easier. I love the idea of strictly drafting to create a powerhouse team, unfortunately that isnt really possible. I'll have to enjoy Stat and Melo leading the Knicks lol

strahan92osi72
12-14-2011, 11:33 AM
LOL a guy who's been in the league for a year is trying to tell one of the game's best players what to do? Mind-boggling. Also, lets see what happens in five years or so when Cousins could be in the exact same position, if he lives up to his potential. Lets see how loyal he will be.

ManningToTyree
12-14-2011, 11:44 AM
Everyone remember this thread for when Cousins is the best Center on the market in 2 years.

He has to learn to shut his yap.

thekmp211
12-14-2011, 11:47 AM
Everyone remember this thread for when Cousins is the best Center on the market in 2 years.

He has to learn to shut his yap.

let's see if he can shoot 50% from the field for a season first.

flea
12-14-2011, 12:16 PM
Well if you were around basketball circles more often and understand something about the game of basketball you'd never say something like this. I don't think he's top 10 but MANY great basketball minds (including the most respected poster on this site Chronz) do think he is.

Well they're absolutely wrong, whether you respect them or not.

thekmp211
12-14-2011, 12:34 PM
Well they're absolutely wrong, whether you respect them or not.

it's not that insane. the only think holding manu back is his abbreviated career. i'm guessing that his per min. statistics place him in the conversation.

i don't think he's top ten either, but as an opinion it isn't all that ludicrous. especially in a psd back-drop.

ink
12-14-2011, 12:37 PM
All of this is based on their track records.

Fixed.

Steve Nash plays for and has remained loyal to one of the most ridiculed, stingiest owners in basketball. As we've SEEN he is also a competitor who will play until he collapses and he was likely deprived of a championship because of the Donaghy point shaving fiasco in the Spurs-Suns CF a few years ago. Through ALL of it he remains loyal to his franchise. All the rationalizations and justifications you're attempting to make on behalf of the characterless players of the league pale in comparison with the responsible, loyal behaviour of players like this. The sad thing is that you actually believe what you're saying, repeating the messed up thinking of self-interested athletes as if it made any sense at all. It doesn't.

ink
12-14-2011, 12:42 PM
Well if you were around basketball circles more often and understand something about the game of basketball you'd never say something like this.

Curious what "basketball circles" you are "around". I'm in almost daily contact with friends who are ex-members of the Canadian national basketball team. A few of them have been to three Olympics. Trust me, they don't share the trendy bull **** views about players' rights to abandon their teams.

ink
12-14-2011, 12:44 PM
LOL a guy who's been in the league for a year is trying to tell one of the game's best players what to do? Mind-boggling. Also, lets see what happens in five years or so when Cousins could be in the exact same position, if he lives up to his potential. Lets see how loyal he will be.

It's the Redeem Team BFFs who are the abberation, not the sophomore.

Dolfan305
12-14-2011, 12:47 PM
He's played in the NBA for 1 season and he wants to preach loyalty? Give me a break. Guys like Lebron, Carmelo, Bosh etc. gave their teams 7 seasons to build around them. I'm sick of hearing GMs and owners, who suck at their jobs, complain about not being able to compete with big markets. The Orlando Magic had the second highest pay roll in the NBA last season. Maybe their management just suck

ink
12-14-2011, 12:47 PM
Well they're absolutely wrong, whether you respect them or not.

Also, there are no great basketball minds on this site. There are several who make it their all-consuming hobby, but the "great basketball minds" are the ones who actually work in the NBA. If any of the "basketball minds" on this site ever worked in the league they'd be annihilated by many of the GMs they like to ridicule. It's absurd how small a taste of reality you can find here. Mostly kids who just repeat what they hear until it gathers the impression of truth. Seriously, people, put up your hands if you work in the business. Thought so ...

thekmp211
12-14-2011, 12:51 PM
Fixed.

Steve Nash plays for and has remained loyal to one of the most ridiculed, stingiest owners in basketball. As we've SEEN he is also a competitor who will play until he collapses and he was likely deprived of a championship because of the Donaghy point shaving fiasco in the Spurs-Suns CF a few years ago. Through ALL of it he remains loyal to his franchise. All the rationalizations and justifications you're attempting to make on behalf of the characterless players of the league pale in comparison with the responsible, loyal behaviour of players like this. The sad thing is that you actually believe what you're saying, repeating the messed up thinking of self-interested athletes as if it made any sense at all. It doesn't.

ok. you do realize that steve nash hasn't always been on the suns. the loyal suns traded him after his 2nd year and then resigned him with a gigantic monetary offer. at that point, nash should have been "loyal" to the mavericks based on all of these subjective barometers you have applied to sports. but he went to phoenix for the dough. did it work out? yes. is nash the man? of course. but to somehow imply he's on a higher moral plane than any nba star who has ever left a franchise after say 5+ years is just crazy. partially because he is an nba star that left his successful franchise after 5+ years.

even ignoring all that. what has nash's most recent bout of "loyalty" done to advance his teams interests. has it attracted marquis names? gotten top draft picks? no, it is (one) reason that phoenix is in that rebuilding purgatory you so vehemently claimed the hornets must avoid the other day.

you have to stop putting certain athletes on pedistals based on something as simple-minded as changing teams. it's rare for it to work out -- in any sport. appreciate the guys that do it because it's rare. by the same token, it's not crucifiction time when an aging star decides he wants to start over.

LakersIn5
12-14-2011, 01:00 PM
had dirk,pierce,etc started their career on low market, weak and consistent lottery teams they would also had changed teams. had lebron been drafted to a team with another star and great management, he would have stayed.

Cromedome
12-14-2011, 01:03 PM
Kobe Bryant was drafted by the Hornets.

Infamous916
12-14-2011, 01:30 PM
Some of the post's in here are laughable, quite a few of the people here act like DeMarcus took a huge **** in their cereal.

ink
12-14-2011, 01:37 PM
ok. you do realize that steve nash hasn't always been on the suns. the loyal suns traded him after his 2nd year and then resigned him with a gigantic monetary offer. at that point, nash should have been "loyal" to the mavericks based on all of these subjective barometers you have applied to sports. but he went to phoenix for the dough. did it work out? yes. is nash the man? of course. but to somehow imply he's on a higher moral plane than any nba star who has ever left a franchise after say 5+ years is just crazy. partially because he is an nba star that left his successful franchise after 5+ years.

even ignoring all that. what has nash's most recent bout of "loyalty" done to advance his teams interests. has it attracted marquis names? gotten top draft picks? no, it is (one) reason that phoenix is in that rebuilding purgatory you so vehemently claimed the hornets must avoid the other day.

you have to stop putting certain athletes on pedistals based on something as simple-minded as changing teams. it's rare for it to work out -- in any sport. appreciate the guys that do it because it's rare. by the same token, it's not crucifiction time when an aging star decides he wants to start over.

26 is aging???

Fact check: I never talked about "rebuilding purgatory" the other day.

Regarding Nash's career, I live in the city where most of his national team friends live. I get very direct info about Nash, from the time he got a scholarship to Santa Clara out of high school, right through to the present. He was drafted onto a team deep in all star PGs and was traded to the Mavs, then picked up again by the same GM who traded him away because Colangelo believed in Nash and his longevity. Mark Cuban didn't. It turned out to be a very good call on PHXs part. Yes, trades and FA happens in the NBA as it should, but there is still a way to go about doing it with dignity. His career is not the only career that has had integrity to it, not by a long shot. And that integrity is exactly what is missing in today's NBA. You can see it in the headlines. There are very few positive stories, mainly finger pointing stories of manipulation and greed from both sides. It's sickening. There really is no league like it in North America ... well maybe boxing. That's how low the NBA has sunk. It all starts with selfishness. When you operate from selfishness, especially in a team game, you are really and truly ****ed.

btw, regarding subjective/objective, people can kid themselves into thinking that only statistical analysis is "objective" but what they may not realize is that it is only a fraction of the equation of sport. Sure, understand "objective" data, but don't completely buy into the accountant's way of looking at something that requires heart, dedication, loyalty, and the ability to succeed with teammates. Those intangibles take the college player with all the favourable stats and turn him into a successful pro.

thekmp211
12-14-2011, 01:59 PM
26 is aging???

Fact check: I never talked about "rebuilding purgatory" the other day.

Regarding Nash's career, I live in the city where most of his national team friends live. I get very direct info about Nash, from the time he got a scholarship to Santa Clara out of high school, right through to the present. He was drafted onto a team deep in all star PGs and was traded to the Mavs, then picked up again by the same GM who traded him away because Colangelo believed in Nash and his longevity. Mark Cuban didn't. It turned out to be a very good call on PHXs part. Yes, trades and FA happens in the NBA as it should, but there is still a way to go about doing it with dignity. His career is not the only career that has had integrity to it, not by a long shot. And that integrity is exactly what is missing in today's NBA. You can see it in the headlines. There are very few positive stories, mainly finger pointing stories of manipulation and greed from both sides. It's sickening. There really is no league like it in North America ... well maybe boxing. That's how low the NBA has sunk. It all starts with selfishness. When you operate from selfishness, especially in a team game, you are really and truly ****ed.

btw, regarding subjective/objective, people can kid themselves into thinking that only statistical analysis is "objective" but what they may not realize is that it is only a fraction of the equation of sport. Sure, understand "objective" data, but don't completely buy into the accountant's way of looking at something that requires heart, dedication, loyalty, and the ability to succeed with teammates. Those intangibles take the college player with all the favourable stats and turn him into a successful pro.

if a 28 year old kevin martin is an aging declining veteran, a creaky-kneed chris paul is not far behind. close enough that 3+ years of rebuilding doesn't sound so hot after all you've done.

re: rebuilding purgatory i'm just refering to the consensus amongst those who supported the trade veto that the hornets got screwed long-term in the deal. something like phoenix is going through with nash on the roster.

re: i agree with all of the bolded. but from top to bottom, basketball isn't built for long-term loyalty in the traditional sense. no sports are really. a star player isn't turning his back on those things by recognizing a bad situation for what it is. each player matters so much. two, three, four bad roster decisions can do it in hoops. that's not the case in any other north american sport.

Swashcuff
12-14-2011, 05:41 PM
:laugh2:

I know you said something about Chronz, who I respect as well, but this is egregiously false. What on earth is your justification for making such a statement? Shock value?

Please be so kind as to post your list of the top 10 shooting guards of all time then.

My list of top 10 SGs ever does not include Manu but anyone with a comprehensive understanding of the game of basketball and its history would respectfully understand why Manu has a top 10 case. Me personally don't agree with him being top 10 because of the fact that he never led a team. He was never a true #1 option (until this past season which can still be debated). However from a statistical POV few match Manu's prowess all time.

My top 10 SGs of all time list would consist of

Michael Jordan
Kobe Bryant
Clyde Drexler
Dwyane Wade
George Gervin
Allen Iverson
Sidney Moncrief
Reggie Miller
Ray Allen
Tracy McGrady

that's not in order but it would be something of the sort. I don't consider Jerry West a SG since he played the PG for the vast majority of his career. If he was on the list he'd be near the top of course.

If we compare Manu career to those players from an advanced statistical POV the only player that has him beat across the board from the stats which are available is MJ.

Swashcuff
12-14-2011, 05:43 PM
Well they're absolutely wrong, whether you respect them or not.

I agree that they are absolutely wrong but I dare you to engage in a discussion about it with them. If you have any semblance of an open mind I can assure you that they'd sway your opinion on it. Maybe not into believing it but seeing why they'd say it. Manu Ginobili is absolutely a star and beyond a shadow of a doubt a top 25 SG all time. You gotta be kidding me if you think he isn't or its borderline.

kozelkid
12-14-2011, 05:44 PM
None of the players you listed except for Dirk, Pierce, and Olajuwon had to stick it out with their team. They were on a championship team very early in their careers. I mean, you like to hear players saying that but it's not exactly a big deal to hear a 2nd year player talking like that.

No kidding.

Lebron James also said he'd do whatever he could to bring a championship to Cleveland after signing his extension with them in 06. We all know what happened afterwards.

Nothing against Cousins, but talk is cheap.

kozelkid
12-14-2011, 05:46 PM
If Manu could have stayed healthy consistently, he'd be right there with Wade, Tmac, Drexler, West and Kobe. No question about that.

Unfortunately he couldn't. But in his prime, I'm absolutely taking him over Reggie and likely Ray. Rather easily too.

Swashcuff
12-14-2011, 05:51 PM
Fixed.

Steve Nash plays for and has remained loyal to one of the most ridiculed, stingiest owners in basketball. As we've SEEN he is also a competitor who will play until he collapses and he was likely deprived of a championship because of the Donaghy point shaving fiasco in the Spurs-Suns CF a few years ago. Through ALL of it he remains loyal to his franchise. All the rationalizations and justifications you're attempting to make on behalf of the characterless players of the league pale in comparison with the responsible, loyal behaviour of players like this. The sad thing is that you actually believe what you're saying, repeating the messed up thinking of self-interested athletes as if it made any sense at all. It doesn't.

That same stingy owner surrounded Steve Nash with one of the best offensive PFs ever, Shawn Marion, Joe Johnson, Raja Bell, Mike D Antoni etc etc etc. He gave his star a chance at winning. Think of how many supposedly loyal/good guys got stuck with franchises that did nothing for them. You really think had Steve Nash gone to a Phoenix team that was not built to win he would have lasted that long? If you seriously think that then I seriously pity you. Nash has been a winner with the Suns. Had that not been the case no way he remains there so long. Same with Dirk in Dallas. Management actually gave those players a chance to succeed.

You're telling me about the sad thing is me believing what I am saying what I am saying is %100 truth and fact. Loyalty is TWO way street. Interview any professional athlete in any sport. Its not just about what a player can do for a franchise but also what a franchise can do for him.

I truly feel sorry for you.

Swashcuff
12-14-2011, 05:52 PM
Curious what "basketball circles" you are "around". I'm in almost daily contact with friends who are ex-members of the Canadian national basketball team. A few of them have been to three Olympics. Trust me, they don't share the trendy bull **** views about players' rights to abandon their teams.

What garbage are you talking? Did you even read the quote in which I replied to? We were discussing a totally different topic. Read before quoting me next time dude. PS no one really cares if your daily contact is with those guys that has nothing to do with what is being discussed.

kozelkid
12-14-2011, 05:59 PM
That same stingy owner surrounded Steve Nash with one of the best offensive PFs ever, Shawn Marion, Joe Johnson, Raja Bell, Mike D Antoni etc etc etc. He gave his star a chance at winning. Think of how many supposedly loyal/good guys got stuck with franchises that did nothing for them. You really think had Steve Nash gone to a Phoenix team that was not built to win he would have lasted that long? If you seriously think that then I seriously pity you. Nash has been a winner with the Suns. Had that not been the case no way he remains there so long. Same with Dirk in Dallas. Management actually gave those players a chance to succeed.

You're telling me about the sad thing is me believing what I am saying what I am saying is %100 truth and fact. Loyalty is TWO way street. Interview any professional athlete in any sport. Its not just about what a player can do for a franchise but also what a franchise can do for him.

I truly feel sorry for you.

Oh cmon. This is the same owner who traded Joe Johnson for scraps to save money. Traded the #7 pick who turned out to be Luol Deng, for scraps. And a few other picks. He gave Amare up.

Sarver is an awful owner.

I'm not getting into the loyalty argument, but you're dead wrong about Sarver. He's awful.

CousinsEvansDUO
12-14-2011, 06:00 PM
Ink don't bother continuing arguing with swash he will waste your time and not even give valid reasons for his absurd reasoning.

Matrix3132
12-14-2011, 06:07 PM
That same stingy owner surrounded Steve Nash with one of the best offensive PFs ever, Shawn Marion, Joe Johnson, Raja Bell, Mike D Antoni etc etc etc. He gave his star a chance at winning. Think of how many supposedly loyal/good guys got stuck with franchises that did nothing for them. You really think had Steve Nash gone to a Phoenix team that was not built to win he would have lasted that long? If you seriously think that then I seriously pity you. Nash has been a winner with the Suns. Had that not been the case no way he remains there so long. Same with Dirk in Dallas. Management actually gave those players a chance to succeed.

You're telling me about the sad thing is me believing what I am saying what I am saying is %100 truth and fact. Loyalty is TWO way street. Interview any professional athlete in any sport. Its not just about what a player can do for a franchise but also what a franchise can do for him.

I truly feel sorry for you.

Obviously you don't know the suns history, Sarver bought the team with nash, johnson, q-rich, marion, stoudemire, and d'antoni already in place. colangelo stayed on as gm and brought on raja bell, diaw, etc. as a second wave and when brian left, things went bad

Swashcuff
12-14-2011, 06:08 PM
Also, there are no great basketball minds on this site. There are several who make it their all-consuming hobby, but the "great basketball minds" are the ones who actually work in the NBA. If any of the "basketball minds" on this site ever worked in the league they'd be annihilated by many of the GMs they like to ridicule. It's absurd how small a taste of reality you can find here. Mostly kids who just repeat what they hear until it gathers the impression of truth. Seriously, people, put up your hands if you work in the business. Thought so ...

patsSOXknicks works with ESPN. He was among a select few chosen ahead of thousands of applicants. He's part of the "business".

You are a really delusional human being if you think all great basketball minds work for the league. I don't even know who Bagwell or Chronz is but I can tell for a fact just from reading their posts they know a lot more about the game and its history than many persons who work for the NBA.

I must say reading your posts have truly been amusing :laugh2:

There are NBA fans all over the world who know more about the history of the game than many of those that work for the league.

It's a sad sad world if all the great basketball minds work in the league and no where else.

Swashcuff
12-14-2011, 06:09 PM
Oh cmon. This is the same owner who traded Joe Johnson for scraps to save money. Traded the #7 pick who turned out to be Luol Deng, for scraps. And a few other picks. He gave Amare up.

Sarver is an awful owner.

I'm not getting into the loyalty argument, but you're dead wrong about Sarver. He's awful.

I am in no way defending him. No way shape or form but the fact of the matter is Steve Nash was in a position to win was he not?

kozelkid
12-14-2011, 06:11 PM
I am in no way defending him. No way shape or form but the fact of the matter is Steve Nash was in a position to win was he not?

He was. I'm just saying Sarver sucks and didn't do **** for Nash. It would be like if Arison decided to split up the big 3 after they failed against Dallas. Except for the part of course that Arison helped assemble the heat while Sarver didn't.

That was my only point, lol.

USMCLaker
12-14-2011, 06:13 PM
http://blogs.sacbee.com/sports/kings/archives/2011/12/cousins-offers.html

I know I probably shouldn't like this cat because he's a Sacramento King but sorry Laker faithful I've always liked DC and now even more.

Swashcuff
12-14-2011, 06:14 PM
Obviously you don't know the suns history, Sarver bought the team with nash, johnson, q-rich, marion, stoudemire, and d'antoni already in place. colangelo stayed on as gm and brought on raja bell, diaw, etc. as a second wave and when brian left, things went bad

Did he immediately trade away all his assets and left Steve Nash out to dry? Like I said to the other poster Steve Nash was placed in a position to win. Can the same be said about Mitch Richmond?

I'm not giving the Suns owner credit for Nash having a great team but fact of the matter is Nash was surrounded by great players for years. He had no reason to be upset (or as the delusional ones among us would say disloyal).

What if Nash went into a situation without any help and for his next 5 years there nothing changed and he missed the playoffs 4 out of those 5 years. Do you think he'd remain loyal then?

Swashcuff
12-14-2011, 06:16 PM
Ink don't bother continuing arguing with swash he will waste your time and not even give valid reasons for his absurd reasoning.

Just like Demarcus Cousins is the best C in the NBA Tyreke Evans has G.O.A.T. potential and Jimmer is already a 30 PPG scorer right. :pity:

kozelkid
12-14-2011, 06:16 PM
Did he immediately trade away all his assets and left Steve Nash out to dry? Like I said to the other poster Steve Nash was placed in a position to win. Can the same be said about Mitch Richmond?

I'm not giving the Suns owner credit for Nash having a great team but fact of the matter is Nash was surrounded by great players for years. He had no reason to be upset (or as the delusional ones among us would say disloyal).

What if Nash went into a situation without any help and for his next 5 years there nothing changed and he missed the playoffs 4 out of those 5 years. Do you think he'd remain loyal then?

The difference is that Bosh didn't exactly put in the effort to make them a playoff team like he was capable of. Hell, Toronto had a playoff spot in the bag as an 8th seed in 09-10 and Bosh decided to "sit" the last 10 games.

Swashcuff
12-14-2011, 06:18 PM
The difference is that Bosh didn't exactly put in the effort to make them a playoff team like he was capable of. Hell, Toronto had a playoff spot in the bag as an 8th seed in 09-10 and Bosh decided to "sit" the last 10 games.

:confused:

Bosh? Where does he fit into that discussion? :confused:

I have yet to make mention of Chris Bosh in this entire thread.

kozelkid
12-14-2011, 06:22 PM
:confused:

Bosh? Where does he fit into that discussion? :confused:

I have yet to make mention of Chris Bosh in this entire thread.

Oh, I thought we were talking about Bosh when you mentioned player making playoffs once in 4 years. Plus Ink is a Raptors fan.

:facepalm: on my part for not following the discussion.

Swashcuff
12-14-2011, 06:25 PM
Oh, I thought we were talking about Bosh when you mentioned player making playoffs once in 4 years. Plus Ink is a Raptors fan.

:facepalm: on my part for not following the discussion.

No wonder why he's so butt hurt about Miami's big three.

SteBO
12-14-2011, 06:38 PM
Yeah, players should waste their prime years staying on teams that don't give two ****s about winning; just money. Ask KG how that worked out. Cousins doesn't know any better, so whatever.

Catfish1314
12-14-2011, 06:46 PM
Cousins should just keep his mouth shut before taking subliminals at players who are a million times better than he'd ever be.

I'm not of the minority opinion that Cousins is the GOAT center, but he's also not Eddy Curry yet.

Apparently I am in the minority of appreciating that Cousins has the balls to speak his mind with no regard to who it may piss off.

Swashcuff
12-14-2011, 06:53 PM
I'm not of the minority opinion that Cousins is the GOAT center, but he's also not Eddy Curry yet.

Apparently I am in the minority of appreciating that Cousins has the balls to speak his mind with no regard to who it may piss off.

I think however being so young he should be careful what waters he threads. I personally think he'll be a solid player but firstly he should do just that. Play. He's free to say as he so pleases but he isn't going to make life easy on himself if he goes around taking shots at others especially when he hasn't even played in his second season in the league. I'd much rather hear this coming from Tim Duncan than DMC TBH.

RLundi
12-14-2011, 06:57 PM
My list of top 10 SGs ever does not include Manu but anyone with a comprehensive understanding of the game of basketball and its history would respectfully understand why Manu has a top 10 case. Me personally don't agree with him being top 10 because of the fact that he never led a team. He was never a true #1 option (until this past season which can still be debated). However from a statistical POV few match Manu's prowess all time.

My top 10 SGs of all time list would consist of

Michael Jordan
Kobe Bryant
Clyde Drexler
Dwyane Wade
George Gervin
Allen Iverson
Sidney Moncrief
Reggie Miller
Ray Allen
Tracy McGrady

that's not in order but it would be something of the sort. I don't consider Jerry West a SG since he played the PG for the vast majority of his career. If he was on the list he'd be near the top of course.

If we compare Manu career to those players from an advanced statistical POV the only player that has him beat across the board from the stats which are available is MJ.

I disagree with a couple of your assertions. I do consider Jerry West a SG. Just because he handled the ball a lot in half-court sets doesn't make him a point. If anything, he's the definition of a combo guard of sorts. Also, a few discrepancies: Earl Monroe? He is conspicuously absent. I also would not put Sidney Moncrief in this discussion, but to each his own.

I personally would remove Moncrief and McGrady and insert West near the top and Monroe near the bottom.

I also staunchly disagree that only MJ has beaten Manu across the board statistically. Kobe, Wade, Jerry West, George Gervin, McGrady, and Clyde Drexler all have better or similar advanced statistics than Manu. I can see why some would consider him among the 10 best but I'm not convinced he belongs there just yet.

C_Mund
12-14-2011, 06:57 PM
You know what's utterly ridiculous about this whole loyalty BULLCRAP is that the players always get the lousy end of the stick. Case in point Albert Pujols recently leaving the Cards. When will NBA fans realize that professional sports is just that a PROFESSION. This is all a business and loyalty has to go BOTH ways.

Those still hating on the Heat players for joining forces have serious issues understanding the basic concept of freedom of choice. If you had the opportunity to leave your job to go to a higher paying one with more perks in a comfortable environment with great co-workers, which would lighten your workload and your family is in full agreement you'd do it in a millisecond.

Loyalty in professional sports today is overrated and a whole bunch of garbage. Sure it sounds and looks good for a players legacy but what's even better for a player's legacy than loyalty is using your brain and doing what is beneficial in the short term and the long run.

So because somebody has the freedom to choose we have to like their choice? I understand that what these players are doing is within their rights, I just happen to think it's extremely douchy. Believe it or not regular people with regular jobs can often be loyal to their employer, even when not being paid millions of dollars.
For the record I don't disagree with anything you're saying, but it's obvious that there's two schools of thought on the subject and psd seems to be divided right down the middle.

blastmasta26
12-14-2011, 07:03 PM
Loyalty is a very overrated concept, and a flawed one at that. As mentioned, KG stayed loyal to Minny for years only to regret not leaving sooner once he won a title in Boston. Besides, the vast majority of all-time greats have been supplied with great rosters and supporting casts. You can't blame guys like LeBron for leaving their teams when inept management fills the roster with incompetent, washed up, and/or overpaid players. In many of these instances, teams are not even necessarily looking to win, they are just seeking profit from the draw that a good player has. Unless a team is extremely loyal to a star player and provides him with a roster that is clearly sufficient for championship contention, the player has no reason to be loyal to the team.

DerekRE_3
12-14-2011, 07:06 PM
I'm not of the minority opinion that Cousins is the GOAT center, but he's also not Eddy Curry yet.

Apparently I am in the minority of appreciating that Cousins has the balls to speak his mind with no regard to who it may piss off.

It's funny...People complain that players never say anything. That it's just lame cliche after lame cliche. Yet when someone like Cousins actually says what he thinks, they jump on him.

blastmasta26
12-14-2011, 07:13 PM
It's funny...People complain that players never say anything. That it's just lame cliche after lame cliche. Yet when someone like Cousins actually says what he thinks, they jump on him.
It's cool that Cousins is willing to speak his mind at the risk of alienating some peers. I just don't agree with his beliefs.

Swashcuff
12-14-2011, 07:18 PM
I disagree with a couple of your assertions. I do consider Jerry West a SG. Just because he handled the ball a lot in half-court sets doesn't make him a point. If anything, he's the definition of a combo guard of sorts.

No. He played the PG for the vast majority of his career. He led his team's guards in assists every single season he played something not even Magic Johnson did. He once lead the league in APG something to this date than only PGs have accomplished. He was his team's primary ball handler every season after his rookie year (when Baylor handled those duties). He was the one who initiated the offense and was his teams primary playmaker on offense. He isn't the natural PG but he was more of a PG for his team than an SG especially in his later days of his career. Where he played there exclusively and was nothing near being a combo guard anymore.

He is regarded as an SG because of his size as compared to that of his counterparts (namely Gail Goodrich who was like 2 inches shorter), but none of his counterparts played the PG. I would say West was more of a PG/Combo Guard than he was an SG.


Also, a few discrepancies: Earl Monroe? He is conspicuously absent. I also would not put Sidney Moncrief in this discussion, but to each his own.

Though Moncrief may arguably be the greatest G defender ever IMO on offense alone he has Monroe beat. He wasn't a better volume scorer but he was a way more efficient and better scorer than Monroe was. If we go onto defense I think the discussion is closed. Defense is something which should never be undervalued. Squid was among the best of the best best at the SG in that regard. I really can't see a case for Monroe of all people over Squid. I do know you're a quality poster so I won't mind seeing you make one.


I personally would remove Moncrief and McGrady and insert West near the top and Monroe near the bottom.

Matter of opinion and while I disagree I can certainly see why you'd put West in.


I also staunchly disagree that only MJ has beaten Manu across the board statistically. Kobe, Wade, Jerry West, George Gervin, McGrady, and Clyde Drexler all have better or similar advanced statistics than Manu. I can see why some would consider him among the 10 best but I'm not convinced he belongs there just yet.

Well lets compare there careers and sort them but WS/48 and throw in a couple others while we're at it why don't we?


Player PER TS% eFG% TRB% AST% STL% TOV% USG% ORtg DRtg WS WS/48
Michael Jordan 27.9 0.569 0.509 9.4 24.9 3.1 9.3 33.3 118.0 103.0 214.0 0.250
Manu Ginobili 21.7 0.588 0.519 8.3 23.7 2.9 13.9 25.1 115.0 99.0 79.3 0.214
Jerry West 22.9 0.550 0.474 5.1 27.1 3.6 95.0 162.6 0.213
Dwyane Wade 25.7 0.567 0.500 8.0 33.3 2.5 13.9 32.5 111.0 104.0 82.6 0.193
Kobe Bryant 23.5 0.556 0.488 8.2 23.9 2.1 11.4 31.5 112.0 105.0 156.3 0.187
Sidney Moncrief 18.7 0.591 0.509 8.6 17.0 1.9 13.3 20.6 119.0 105.0 90.3 0.187
Sam Jones 18.7 0.503 0.456 14.0 92.3 0.182
Reggie Miller 18.4 0.614 0.544 5.1 14.4 1.6 10.5 21.6 121.0 109.0 174.4 0.176
Clyde Drexler 21.1 0.547 0.495 9.9 25.2 2.8 12.8 25.4 114.0 105.0 135.6 0.173
George Gervin 21.7 0.572 0.513 7.3 13.0 1.6 11.4 30.7 112.0 108.0 88.1 0.159
Ray Allen 19.2 0.578 0.528 6.9 17.2 1.7 11.3 24.5 114.0 108.0 130.9 0.154
Tracy McGrady 22.4 0.519 0.470 9.8 26.4 2.0 10.2 29.6 108.0 104.0 95.6 0.154
David Thompson 19.7 0.566 0.505 6.1 15.4 1.3 12.3 26.5 111.0 107.0 50.8 0.150
Vince Carter 20.7 0.537 0.487 8.3 22.0 1.7 9.7 29.0 109.0 106.0 102.5 0.146
Allen Iverson 20.9 0.518 0.452 5.1 28.8 2.7 12.2 31.8 105.0 106.0 99.0 0.126
Penny Hardaway 17.4 0.535 0.486 7.6 24.3 2.5 15.2 22.1 108.0 105.0 61.9 0.125
Earl Monroe 17.2 0.517 0.464 4.4 17.5 1.5 11.3 23.6 107.0 103.0 77.4 0.125
Hal Greer 15.7 0.506 0.452 5.3 16.2 102.7 0.124
Joe Dumars 15.3 0.554 0.498 3.6 20.5 1.3 12.3 21.1 113.0 110.0 86.2 0.118

Manu has Kobe, Wade, West, Drexler etc all trumped in terms of career TS% and WS/48.

Apparently however you misunderstood what I was saying. I said MJ was the only one who had him beat across the board (I was actually wrong because Manu is a more efficient scorer than MJ was over his career). Meaning in every major category. Manu clearly beats some of the greats in a quite a few aspects.

Stats of course is NOT everything, they have to be placed into context and with that context one would be able to really appreciate a players worth. There are reasons why Manu is such an efficient scorer and generates such a high amount of WS but there is no mistaking that he is a extremely valuable player.

Hell if we compare Manu to Kobe and Wade in terms of RAPM (http://stats-for-the-nba.appspot.com/ranking) over the past 10 years or so we'd see that Manu is right up there the them both and actually better than Kobe in that regard.

Also in terms of 82games.com simple rating Manu fairs pretty well in comparison to those like Allen, Kobe and Wade. All and all I don't think Manu is a top 10 SG but someone can make a good case for it even with the use and comprehensive explanation of context.

ne3xchamps
12-14-2011, 07:22 PM
We shall see how long this statement lasts when he doesn't win **** in sacramento and is highly sought after. :laugh2:

Means absolutely NOTHING right now.

Swashcuff
12-14-2011, 07:26 PM
So because somebody has the freedom to choose we have to like their choice? I understand that what these players are doing is within their rights, I just happen to think it's extremely douchy. Believe it or not regular people with regular jobs can often be loyal to their employer, even when not being paid millions of dollars.
For the record I don't disagree with anything you're saying, but it's obvious that there's two schools of thought on the subject and psd seems to be divided right down the middle.

No gripe with what you're saying here. I'm not saying that one is suppose to like a players choice. I don't always like certain players choices (especially those who choose to go to their prior team's rival) but what else can we do? Hate a man for it? I don't subscribe to that.

A normal man can surely be loyal to his employer but if an opportunity comes along for him to better himself elsewhere (a promotion) that is closer to home and more flexible working hour which benefits the family greatly and he'll be joining a group that lightens his workload this relieving most of the stressful aspects of the job wouldn't said individual then begin to assess what's best for his and his loved ones and in more cases than not choose the new and better opportunity over the old? I'd do it.

I do however agree with you say it comes off douchy because that's just how LeBron's "decision" came. Especially after making promises to the Cavs. IMO LeBron made the %100 correct decision but it could have just been done in a different manner. This to me however isn't about just LeBron its about professional sports on a whole.

RLundi
12-14-2011, 08:01 PM
No. He played the PG for the vast majority of his career. He led his team in assists every single season he played something not even Magic Johnson did. He once lead the league in APG something to this date than only PGs have accomplished. He was his team's primary ball handler every season after his rookie year (when Baylor handled those duties). He was the one who initiated the offense and was his teams primary playmaker on offense. He isn't the natural PG but he was more of a PG for his team than an SG especially in his later days of his career.

He is regarded as an SG because of his size as compared to that of his counterparts (namely Gail Goodrich who was like 2 inches shorter), but none of his counterparts played the PG. I would say West was more of a PG/Combo Guard than he was an SG.

I see where you're coming from but I'm still inclined to refer to West as a SG. Throughout all the Lakers years with West, he was typically accompanied in the backcourt with another smaller player with a point-guard type frame- Frank Selvy, Archie Clark and others come to mind. I know size isn't a definite indicator of position but I think it lends credence to my assertion that West, although he handled the ball frequently, was still a 2. But again, a difference of opinion.



Though Moncrief may arguably be the greatest G defender ever IMO on offense alone he has Monroe beat. He wasn't a better volume scorer but he was a way more efficient and better scorer than Monroe was. If we go onto defense I think the discussion is closed. Defense is something which should never be undervalued. Squid was among the best of the best best at the SG in that regard. I really can't see a case for Monroe of all people over Squid. I do know you're a quality poster so I won't mind seeing you make one.

Statistically, I agree, Moncrief has Monroe beat. While I love to argue statistics, I don't like using it as the sole determining factor. I also take into consideration accolades. Monroe won rookie of the year and was an NBA champion. Unless a player's numbers are outstanding, I'm not sure I can justify putting them among the greats if they haven't won a championship. Also, I give Monroe the slight nod because he played a little longer, which gives us a better sample size, and he averaged more points per game. But I acquiesce, Moncrief was a much more superior defender than Monroe and I'm not discounting that.



Matter of opinion and while I disagree I can certainly see why you'd put West in.



Well lets compare there careers and sort them but WS/48 and throw in a couple others while we're at it why don't we?


Player PER TS% eFG% TRB% AST% STL% TOV% USG% ORtg DRtg WS WS/48
Michael Jordan 27.9 0.569 0.509 9.4 24.9 3.1 9.3 33.3 118.0 103.0 214.0 0.250
Manu Ginobili 21.7 0.588 0.519 8.3 23.7 2.9 13.9 25.1 115.0 99.0 79.3 0.214
Jerry West 22.9 0.550 0.474 5.1 27.1 3.6 95.0 162.6 0.213
Dwyane Wade 25.7 0.567 0.500 8.0 33.3 2.5 13.9 32.5 111.0 104.0 82.6 0.193
Kobe Bryant 23.5 0.556 0.488 8.2 23.9 2.1 11.4 31.5 112.0 105.0 156.3 0.187
Sidney Moncrief 18.7 0.591 0.509 8.6 17.0 1.9 13.3 20.6 119.0 105.0 90.3 0.187
Sam Jones 18.7 0.503 0.456 14.0 92.3 0.182
Reggie Miller 18.4 0.614 0.544 5.1 14.4 1.6 10.5 21.6 121.0 109.0 174.4 0.176
Clyde Drexler 21.1 0.547 0.495 9.9 25.2 2.8 12.8 25.4 114.0 105.0 135.6 0.173
George Gervin 21.7 0.572 0.513 7.3 13.0 1.6 11.4 30.7 112.0 108.0 88.1 0.159
Ray Allen 19.2 0.578 0.528 6.9 17.2 1.7 11.3 24.5 114.0 108.0 130.9 0.154
Tracy McGrady 22.4 0.519 0.470 9.8 26.4 2.0 10.2 29.6 108.0 104.0 95.6 0.154
David Thompson 19.7 0.566 0.505 6.1 15.4 1.3 12.3 26.5 111.0 107.0 50.8 0.150
Vince Carter 20.7 0.537 0.487 8.3 22.0 1.7 9.7 29.0 109.0 106.0 102.5 0.146
Allen Iverson 20.9 0.518 0.452 5.1 28.8 2.7 12.2 31.8 105.0 106.0 99.0 0.126
Penny Hardaway 17.4 0.535 0.486 7.6 24.3 2.5 15.2 22.1 108.0 105.0 61.9 0.125
Earl Monroe 17.2 0.517 0.464 4.4 17.5 1.5 11.3 23.6 107.0 103.0 77.4 0.125
Hal Greer 15.7 0.506 0.452 5.3 16.2 102.7 0.124
Joe Dumars 15.3 0.554 0.498 3.6 20.5 1.3 12.3 21.1 113.0 110.0 86.2 0.118

Manu has Kobe, Wade, West, Drexler etc all trumped in terms of career TS% and WS/48.

Apparently however you misunderstood what I was saying. I said MJ was the only one who had him beat across the board (I was actually wrong because Manu is a more efficient scorer than MJ was over his career). Meaning in every major category. Manu clearly beats some of the greats in a quite a few aspects.

Stats of course is NOT everything, they have to be placed into context and with that context one would be able to really appreciate a players worth. There are reasons why Manu is such an efficient scorer and generates such a high amount of WS but there is no mistaking that he is a extremely valuable player.

Hell if we compare Manu to Kobe and Wade in terms of RAPM (http://stats-for-the-nba.appspot.com/ranking) over the past 10 years or so we'd see that Manu is right up there the them both and actually better than Kobe in that regard.

Also in terms of 82games.com simple rating Manu fairs pretty well in comparison to those like Allen, Kobe and Wade. All and all I don't think Manu is a top 10 SG but someone can make a good case for it even with the use and comprehensive explanation of context.

Ginobili's statistics are startlingly good and the fact that he's won 4 titles certainly has him knocking on the door. But something about his role limits me from seeing him as one of the all-time greats. He was never the man. In fact, in most cases, he was third behind Duncan and Parker. Should he be penalized for having good teammates? Of course not. But a lot of what he accomplished was in a bench role. He only eclipse 30min a game twice in his career. While I'd be foolish to argue his win shares per 48 minutes, I think they are helped and simultaneously skewed because of his somewhat limited role. I'd like his usage rate to be higher before proclaiming him one of the best of all time.

Swashcuff
12-14-2011, 10:15 PM
I see where you're coming from but I'm still inclined to refer to West as a SG. Throughout all the Lakers years with West, he was typically accompanied in the backcourt with another smaller player with a point-guard type frame- Frank Selvy, Archie Clark and others come to mind. I know size isn't a definite indicator of position but I think it lends credence to my assertion that West, although he handled the ball frequently, was still a 2. But again, a difference of opinion.



Statistically, I agree, Moncrief has Monroe beat. While I love to argue statistics, I don't like using it as the sole determining factor. I also take into consideration accolades. Monroe won rookie of the year and was an NBA champion. Unless a player's numbers are outstanding, I'm not sure I can justify putting them among the greats if they haven't won a championship. Also, I give Monroe the slight nod because he played a little longer, which gives us a better sample size, and he averaged more points per game. But I acquiesce, Moncrief was a much more superior defender than Monroe and I'm not discounting that.



Ginobili's statistics are startlingly good and the fact that he's won 4 titles certainly has him knocking on the door. But something about his role limits me from seeing him as one of the all-time greats. He was never the man. In fact, in most cases, he was third behind Duncan and Parker. Should he be penalized for having good teammates? Of course not. But a lot of what he accomplished was in a bench role. He only eclipse 30min a game twice in his career. While I'd be foolish to argue his win shares per 48 minutes, I think they are helped and simultaneously skewed because of his somewhat limited role. I'd like his usage rate to be higher before proclaiming him one of the best of all time.

Bro I can't disagree with anything you've said here. I see where you're coming from on all fronts and I can understand your POV. I FULLY agree on everything you said about Manu as well. You sound like me when I'm arguing against those who think Manu is a top 10 SG. :laugh2: IMO you're spot on on your reasoning.

Raph12
12-14-2011, 10:20 PM
Lets see what happens 8 years down the road. Easy to say that your first few years in the league.

Exactly.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=bBVBUt4DOQQ#t=11s

ink
12-14-2011, 10:24 PM
Interview any professional athlete in any sport.

I have. That's exactly the source of the points I'm making. Athletes actually DO believe in loyalty to the team and your teammates.


I truly feel sorry for you.

This is very close to infraction territory and I'm asking you to tone it down in general.

NYKnicks4511
12-14-2011, 10:33 PM
i guess he's referring to all them "cowards" in new york and miami.

Guess those 'cowards' will have to teach him a thing or two ;)

But seriously, I don't think anyone wants to leave their team for the sake of just leaving, it's about money (family), fit, and of course, winning. But the future looks bright in Sac town, Jimmer, Tyreke, DeMarcus -- they could end up being scary good in a few years.

ink
12-14-2011, 10:35 PM
I'm not giving the Suns owner credit for Nash having a great team but fact of the matter is Nash was surrounded by great players for years. He had no reason to be upset (or as the delusional ones among us would say disloyal).

What if Nash went into a situation without any help and for his next 5 years there nothing changed and he missed the playoffs 4 out of those 5 years. Do you think he'd remain loyal then?

Yes.

Every one of those Suns teams had some critical flaws to them. They NEVER had a centre to support Amare and he was constantly forced to play out of position with the Suns. Losing Joe Johnson was a huge blow; having no real backup PG (i.e. Marcus Banks calibre) for years which put unnecessary mileage on Nash's back; having only players like Kurt Thomas, Jake Voskuhl, Boris Diaw, and Sean Marks as big men; all of those were major holes in the Suns lineup. And that was in their PEAK years. Still, he, Marion, and Amare managed to get the Suns within a hair of making the finals and when the whole thing collapsed and other superstars would have started whining about their legacy, he has gone on to endure several more years of sub-par (for him) basketball when everyone was constantly expecting him to request a trade to a contender.

He didn't.

The logic was "he needs a ring to establish his legacy". But players like that don't need a ring to establish a legacy. He has already established his legacy, just as John Stockton and Reggie Miller and others did before him. He's already established his legacy just as Dirk Nowitzki did, even before the Mavs won last year. For a true fan and a true athlete, those players were already clear winners on a personal level. So, with integrity, he chose to stay in PHX.

Swashcuff
12-14-2011, 10:56 PM
Yes.

Every one of those Suns teams had some critical flaws to them. They NEVER had a centre to support Amare and he was constantly forced to play out of position with the Suns. Losing Joe Johnson was a huge blow; having no real backup PG (i.e. Marcus Banks calibre) for years which put unnecessary mileage on Nash's back; having only players like Kurt Thomas, Jake Voskuhl, Boris Diaw, and Sean Marks as big men; all of those were major holes in the Suns lineup. And that was in their PEAK years. Still, he, Marion, and Amare managed to get the Suns within a hair of making the finals and when the whole thing collapsed and other superstars would have started whining about their legacy, he has gone on to endure several more years of sub-par (for him) basketball when everyone was constantly expecting him to request a trade to a contender.

He didn't.

The logic was "he needs a ring to establish his legacy". But players like that don't need a ring to establish a legacy. He has already established his legacy, just as John Stockton and Reggie Miller and others did before him. He's already established his legacy just as Dirk Nowitzki did, even before the Mavs won last year. For a true fan and a true athlete, those players were already clear winners on a personal level. So, with integrity, he chose to stay in PHX.

You're basing this on the lack of a true C? Wasn't there concerns about having a conventional C in that Suns system which is why they saw it fit to have Diaw start there and in their opinion it was something that worked out fine chemistry wise and in terms of general success it worked out fine in the win department.

Nash walked into a system/team that was tailor made for him to be successful. Had it been the other way around and he wasn't being successful there is no way you can undoubtedly say that he wouldn't then seek a way out. When a player is winning MVPs and 60+ games its easy to remain loyal because you are gaining benefits from being in such a situation but had Nash been in a situation similar or worse than that of KGs no way he remains as loyal to that franchise as he has been.

It's really astounding that in today's sports world there are people who still believe that players would remain loyal to teams no matter how badly the team has treated them just because they are class acts. Steve Nash may be a class act but he isn't an idiot. The man just like every other professional athlete would want to be made happy if he isn't in a situation then he'll just take the money and if it isn't about the money then he's going to want out.

LOOTERX9
12-14-2011, 10:57 PM
HAHA Good luck with that one Cousins

Swashcuff
12-14-2011, 10:58 PM
I have. That's exactly the source of the points I'm making. Athletes actually DO believe in loyalty to the team and your teammates.

And who's saying they don't. If the Team isn't being loyal to them in return what do they believe in then?

ink
12-14-2011, 11:00 PM
You're basing this on the lack of a true C?

Pretty obvious that I wasn't.

ink
12-14-2011, 11:05 PM
And who's saying they don't. If the Team isn't being loyal to them in return what do they believe in then?

They don't think that way. Definitely not the ones I've interviewed -- athletes from the last three summer Olympics and each of the major pro sports that play in my region. Contrary to what you keep insisting, they actually understand that loyalty to teammates is paramount, and that team building is complex. If you can't get the pieces you need you keep fighting. Generally all of them say that you focus on what you can do and don't worry about what others can't do. You are responsible for what YOU can contribute to the team. I understand that some ******** thinking has evolved in basketball, but most athletes don't think that way.

Chronz
12-14-2011, 11:22 PM
Ink, do you believe a players career will be remembered in greater light if they stayed loyal and ringless, or ego driven with rings?

RLundi
12-14-2011, 11:23 PM
Bro I can't disagree with anything you've said here. I see where you're coming from on all fronts and I can understand your POV. I FULLY agree on everything you said about Manu as well. You sound like me when I'm arguing against those who think Manu is a top 10 SG. :laugh2: IMO you're spot on on your reasoning.

Glad we can come to a consensus that Mano isn't top 10. :D

IndyRealist
12-14-2011, 11:27 PM
He wouldn't be saying that if they got Chris Paul.

sb123
12-14-2011, 11:30 PM
The New Eddy Curry has an opinion?

ink
12-14-2011, 11:53 PM
Ink, do you believe a players career will be remembered in greater light if they stayed loyal and ringless, or ego driven with rings?

It really depends on what you mean by greater. I've said before that the player has to fight through adversity and earn his status. Quitting on your team to find an easier route is not fighting through adversity. That isn't how champions are made.

I would definitely consider Stockton or Miller's ringless careers in a greater light than Lebron's if he wins a ring with Miami. Closer to the present, if Dirk and Lebron each have a championship under their belts by this time next year, I would definitely consider Dirk the worthier champion. Yes, Cuban bought the best team he could buy, but if you look at the pieces on that team, they are not equivalent superstars instantly assembled. Beside Dirk there was no other player of his stature, not really even close. Beside Lebron you have Wade who some could argue is at his level or higher. And not too far below that is Bosh, who is also probably better than the next best player on the Mavs. Each of those Mavs players was very good, but they were very good functioning in their critical roles; the sum of the parts was greater than any one individual. That's how they won, as a balanced, well-coached team.

But you asked me if some of the ringless greats would be held in a more favourable light than super team members. I would hope so. Loyalty, integrity, character, and dedication are all elements I'd weigh heavily in determining who a worthy champion is. But I know that a lot of fans slurp the stars and think the only thing that matters is the ring, and the discussion hits a wall beyond that point.

RLundi
12-15-2011, 12:08 AM
The New Eddy Curry has an opinion?

:laugh2:

DODGERS&LAKERS
01-01-2012, 07:57 PM
http://blogs.sacbee.com/sports/kings/archives/2011/12/cousins-offers.html

Bump..... LOL

Hawkeye15
01-01-2012, 07:58 PM
I knew someone would bump it lol. But we have the other thread open. Discuss there please.