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View Full Version : Clippers, C's & Bulls now after D12



MagicBucsSox
12-11-2011, 03:57 AM
http://sports.yahoo.com/nba/news;_ylt=As4vkv98HY8wk2u1WZM0ZWO8vLYF?slug=aw-wojnarowski_chris_paul_trade_hornets_lakers_nba_12 0911


C's willing to give rondo with no extention?
Clips offers the best with an extention
And bulls I thought had a good offer but no longer

abe_froman
12-11-2011, 03:59 AM
he doesnt want to be on any of those teams(per reports),so have no idea why they'd be in the chase

Dade County
12-11-2011, 04:01 AM
This is not going to stop, and howard is not interested in any of those teams.

Mr_Amaziing
12-11-2011, 04:06 AM
Howard and Rose

That's Hot

MagicBucsSox
12-11-2011, 04:06 AM
Not about what he wants, C's are willing to risk they can change his mind, Clips my lose Djordan and bulls idk

kozelkid
12-11-2011, 04:08 AM
**** this ****.

Why do we have to be in these rumors again.

We don't need this crap. He doesn't want us: his loss. We'll make do without him just fine.

JB0B0
12-11-2011, 04:08 AM
Not about what he wants, C's are willing to risk they can change his mind, Clips my lose Djordan and bulls idk

The Clips can offer the best deal and I believe the Bulls can offer the 2nd-best deal.

Clips: Kaman (expiring), Aminu, Bledsoe, Minnesota pick, and possibly more
Bulls: Noah, Deng, Asik, Taj, Mirotic, Charlotte protected pick

Moe Bigsley
12-11-2011, 04:10 AM
This really has to go. He IS NOT GOING TO ANY OF THESE TEAMS. (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rxTbdj2c61c) I don't understand what the benefit of threads like this are. Teams, like the Bulls, can offer up a great package for the player....but if he doesn't want to play for them, like he's stated....what the hell are we talking about???

As kozel said, his loss.

RevisIsland
12-11-2011, 04:12 AM
If the Celtics are willing to offer Rondo without an extension they should be in the lead. I'm guessing they'd try to take Jameer back though to replace Rondo. Rondo, Jeff Green, Jajuan Johnson, E'Twaun Moore, Avery Bradley and two first round picks for Dwight and Jameer. Celtics have Jameer-Ray-Pierce-KG-Dwight with West and scrubs off the bench. Yikes.

RevisIsland
12-11-2011, 04:14 AM
And by the way, he absolutely would be willing to go to the Clippers or Bulls. Just because he hasn't outright said it doesn't mean he wouldn't. As for Boston, they wouldn't need his approval if they didn't need an extension, I'm sure he's mature enough to go there for a year. Hell with the squad they'd have around him they'd have a real shot at winning the whole thing.

Cracka2HI!
12-11-2011, 04:14 AM
If he wanted to be a Clipper it would have already happened. He obviously doesn't.

DaVille
12-11-2011, 04:15 AM
interesting

naps
12-11-2011, 04:16 AM
...

Ty Fast
12-11-2011, 04:18 AM
why wouldnt he want to go to the bulls???

kozelkid
12-11-2011, 04:18 AM
...


The Boston Celtics, Chicago Bulls and Los Angeles Clippers are expected to also be aggressive bidders for Dwight Howard.

This is the only mention.

It's so ****ing annoying though.

Besides, Noah can't even be dealt til Jan 15th due to BYC.

abe_froman
12-11-2011, 04:21 AM
why wouldnt he want to go to the bulls???

dunno but there have been reports that says he doesnt

gotoHcarolina52
12-11-2011, 04:22 AM
This is the only mention.

It's so ****ing annoying though.

Besides, Noah can't even be dealt til Jan 15th due to BYC.

And if they wait until 1/15 to make the trade to CHI, wouldn't that prevent Dwight from signing a five-year extension?

D-Block21-Chito
12-11-2011, 04:27 AM
Please please come to Chicago.... I like this idea about Boston as well. Boston would be really really fun to watch

RevisIsland
12-11-2011, 04:29 AM
I'm fairly certain the new CBA eliminated the BYC issue for trades. I don't know exactly how, but I think they made it so it wouldn't be an issue with trades, which would mean the Bulls can trade Noah now.

mttwlsn16
12-11-2011, 04:32 AM
If he wanted to be a Clipper it would have already happened. He obviously doesn't.

i agree w gino lewis

last stand
12-11-2011, 04:33 AM
This is the only mention.

It's so ****ing annoying though.

Besides, Noah can't even be dealt til Jan 15th due to BYC.

really? thats good news!

Cracka2HI!
12-11-2011, 04:38 AM
i agree w gino lewis

LOL Matt Wilson!

kozelkid
12-11-2011, 04:54 AM
really? thats good news!

Who cares. Chicago wasn't an option in the first place.


And if they wait until 1/15 to make the trade to CHI, wouldn't that prevent Dwight from signing a five-year extension?

What's the point of signing an extension. It's it the same reason Deron didn't extend. They'd be leaving money on the table.

bholly
12-11-2011, 05:06 AM
I'm fairly certain the new CBA eliminated the BYC issue for trades. I don't know exactly how, but I think they made it so it wouldn't be an issue with trades, which would mean the Bulls can trade Noah now.

Haven't read anything about the base year thing disappearing (although that certainly doesn't mean it hasn't).

More relevant here is that it's been long enough since Noah signed his extension that he just isn't a BYC player anymore.

Edit: actually, has it been long enough? Maybe I'm wrong about that.

kozelkid
12-11-2011, 05:09 AM
Haven't read anything about the base year thing disappearing (although that certainly doesn't mean it hasn't).

More relevant here is that it's been long enough since Noah signed his extension that he just isn't a BYC player anymore.

His contract just started.


• 2011 CBA: The criteria for determining whether a player is subject to base year compensation are the same. Players subject to base year compensation cannot be traded before Jan. 15, except in a sign-and-trade. If the trade is allowed, then base year compensation is applied to the player's outgoing salary only in a sign-and-trade transaction.

• Who benefits? Base year compensation prevents teams from re-signing players to higher salaries in order to facilitate a future trade. Preventing these players from being traded at all (except in a sign-and-trade) also helps to reduce crazy trades, where extra players are added to both sides of the deal to make the salaries match.

http://espn.go.com/nba/story/_/page/CBA-111128/how-new-nba-deal-compares-last-one

seikou8
12-11-2011, 05:15 AM
Who cares. Chicago wasn't an option in the first place.



What's the point of signing an extension. It's it the same reason Deron didn't extend. They'd be leaving money on the table.

ididnt know you were dwight howard

kozelkid
12-11-2011, 05:19 AM
ididnt know you were dwight howard

Neither did I.

gaughan333
12-11-2011, 05:25 AM
Dwight would be awesome on the bulls, but it isn't going to happen and I'm not even gonna get my hopes up

Raph12
12-11-2011, 05:25 AM
Not happening, the Magic would be stupid to trade for Mr. 0pts-10asts Rondo and start Baby/Orton at center... Hell Lakers trade straight up for Bynum is better than Rondo trade straight up.

Now that DJordan signed the offer sheet of the Warriors, if the Clipps match, he will not be allowed to be traded until (what used to be Dec 12-17th) which would probably be January/Febuary... So we'd only get Kaman's expiring and the Minni pick, which makes it a bad deal.

I'm not getting into the Chitown deal again, but that's just not happening.

Btw a lot of people are thinking Minni might have a top pick in the draft but they maybe mistaken. Rubio-WesJohnson-DerrickWilliams-Love-Millicic; Beasley could be traded for a legit center or come off the bench. That's a pretty nice looking lineup which the prodigal son Rubio returning and possibly may be able to push the team towards the playoffs with the weaker West.

gaughan333
12-11-2011, 05:46 AM
I agree, the TWolves could be interesting, but an unprotected pick in this draft is still a pretty decent commodity

Cracka2HI!
12-11-2011, 05:53 AM
Not happening, the Magic would be stupid to trade for Mr. 0pts-10asts Rondo and start Baby/Orton at center... Hell Lakers trade straight up for Bynum is better than Rondo trade straight up.

Now that DJordan signed the offer sheet of the Warriors, if the Clipps match, he will not be allowed to be traded until (what used to be Dec 12-17th) which would probably be January/Febuary... So we'd only get Kaman's expiring and the Minni pick, which makes it a bad deal.

I'm not getting into the Chitown deal again, but that's just not happening.

Btw a lot of people are thinking Minni might have a top pick in the draft but they maybe mistaken. Rubio-WesJohnson-DerrickWilliams-Love-Millicic; Beasley could be traded for a legit center or come off the bench. That's a pretty nice looking lineup which the prodigal son Rubio returning and possibly may be able to push the team towards the playoffs with the weaker West.You guys could also get Bledsoe and Aminu, but I think the Lakers and Rockets will make the best offer.

The thing I don't get is Dwight being willing to go to NJ/Broolyn but not Chicago. The Bulls defenitly have enough to trade for him and improve the team. In NJ it'd just him and Williams. I alwasy thought he didn't to play in a cold wheather city, but other than that I don't know why he wouldn't to be a Bull. Other than our owner I don't why he wouldn't want to be a Clipper. Paul makes more sense for use though.

Cal827
12-11-2011, 05:55 AM
Good god, Chicago is still in this race? But that offer is basically the worst offer in NBA history lol... this is going to be a long three months till the trade deadline... please Clippers, spare the 999 threads and acquire him NOW. lol

gaughan333
12-11-2011, 05:56 AM
Maybe he doesn't want to go to a team where it is pretty clearly someone elses. Rose is worshiped in chicago...dwight seems to like attention on him

Bullsfan22
12-11-2011, 06:16 AM
Don't need him and really not that excited to be in rumors for him again.

Raph12
12-11-2011, 06:22 AM
You guys could also get Bledsoe and Aminu, but I think the Lakers and Rockets will make the best offer.

The thing I don't get is Dwight being willing to go to NJ/Broolyn but not Chicago. The Bulls defenitly have enough to trade for him and improve the team. In NJ it'd just him and Williams. I alwasy thought he didn't to play in a cold wheather city, but other than that I don't know why he wouldn't to be a Bull. Other than our owner I don't why he wouldn't want to be a Clipper. Paul makes more sense for use though.

Dwight says he doesn't want the Clipps and plus Bledsoe-Aminu wouldn't do anything for us as we're stacked with wings (JRich-Redick-QRich-Harper-Liggens) and PGs (Nelson-Duhon). I don't know if you mean Rockets offer for Dwight or Rockets taking part in a 3-team trade; either way, I doubt they're involved.

DWill is a willing passer who excelled in the PNR offense and would be able to get D12 the ball at all times; not to mention they are tight. Rose owns the Bulls and D12 wants to be the man, not only that, but Rose is inferior to quite a few PGs when it comes to getting the ball to his teammates. Whether that be courtvision or just not willing to pass, it hinders any star from wanting to play with a score-first PG.

I said this before and I'll say it again, if John Wall was running the show in Chitown, stars from all over would lineup to play with him... It is a mentality thing.

AllBall
12-11-2011, 06:23 AM
if the team will not be taking on hedo's contract its a pointless rumor.

ramsizzle
12-11-2011, 06:29 AM
Dwight says he doesn't want the Clipps and plus Bledsoe-Aminu wouldn't do anything for us as we're stacked with wings (JRich-Redick-QRich-Harper-Liggens) and PGs (Nelson-Duhon). I don't know if you mean Rockets offer for Dwight or Rockets taking part in a 3-team trade; either way, I doubt they're involved.

DWill is a willing passer who excelled in the PNR offense and would be able to get D12 the ball at all times; not to mention they are tight. Rose owns the Bulls and D12 wants to be the man, not only that, but Rose is inferior to quite a few PGs when it comes to getting the ball to his teammates. Whether that be courtvision or just not willing to pass, it hinders any star from wanting to play with a score-first PG.

I said this before and I'll say it again, if John Wall was running the show in Chitown, stars from all over would lineup to play with him... It is a mentality thing.

You really think that? What's wrong with you?

Raph12
12-11-2011, 07:00 AM
You really think that? What's wrong with you?

I don't just think it, I know it; Wall is a pass-first PG, hell he aved 9+apg on the Wizards... And that's the Wizards, think about what he could do with a good team.

When you're a star big, you want to play with a pass-first PG, seeming as how as a big you need to be fed the ball; playing with a score-first PG who avgs 25+ppg, not gonna be a top destination.

justinnum1
12-11-2011, 07:07 AM
What happens when Chicago's players find out they are trying to be traded? Will they pull a lamar odom?

MOST
12-11-2011, 07:24 AM
Don't need him don't want him and he don't want us so bulls shouldn't even be mentioned can't wait till this is over Howard just go sign wherever and let the season begin can't wait.

justinnum1
12-11-2011, 07:29 AM
You guys could also get Bledsoe and Aminu, but I think the Lakers and Rockets will make the best offer.

The thing I don't get is Dwight being willing to go to NJ/Broolyn but not Chicago. The Bulls defenitly have enough to trade for him and improve the team. In NJ it'd just him and Williams. I alwasy thought he didn't to play in a cold wheather city, but other than that I don't know why he wouldn't to be a Bull. Other than our owner I don't why he wouldn't want to be a Clipper. Paul makes more sense for use though.

Why would he want to play in chicago? There owner is known to be really douche when it comes to spending. Rose thinks he can do it all by himself, even tho its pretty clear he cant. And in brooklyn dwight would be the guy. (he would prob be the guy if he ended up in chicago) but orlando doesn't want the bulls garbage. Not to mention chicago would have to take back hedo. lol

ChiTownSports1
12-11-2011, 07:36 AM
Asik is pretty good trade chip right now, young and looked good his rookie year. He has played much better than where he was drafted. Houston wants a C bad there trying many scenerio's. A bet alot of teams look at him as a potentail starting C soon with a defensive mind set. Maybe can get somethig from them for Asik that helps us get Howard without trading Deng.


Hou gets - O.Asik-C, 2nrd'13-Chi
Lose - D.Motiejunas-SF(20thpk'11)

ChiTownSports1
12-11-2011, 07:38 AM
If Orlando is trading Howard, maybe there willing trade Redick also. K.Korver, J.Butler and 2nrd'13 for him.

mike_noodles
12-11-2011, 07:50 AM
http://sports.yahoo.com/nba/news;_ylt=As4vkv98HY8wk2u1WZM0ZWO8vLYF?slug=aw-wojnarowski_chris_paul_trade_hornets_lakers_nba_12 0911


C's willing to give rondo with no extention?
Clips offers the best with an extention
And bulls I thought had a good offer but no longer

Your link goes to a CP3 trade article.

And everyone asking why teams are getting involved that he doesn't "want" to go to. Who cares, IT IS NOT UP TO HIM. He is under contract and the Magic are absolutely brilliant to bring back the best talent and to NOT BE HELD HOSTAGE by another cry baby NBA star.

ichitownclowni
12-11-2011, 08:10 AM
If he came here fine, but these threads are as annoying as ****

abe_froman
12-11-2011, 08:15 AM
Your link goes to a CP3 trade article.

And everyone asking why teams are getting involved that he doesn't "want" to go to. Who cares, IT IS NOT UP TO HIM. He is under contract and the Magic are absolutely brilliant to bring back the best talent and to NOT BE HELD HOSTAGE by another cry baby NBA star.

it kind of is,as no team would give up more than a 3rd stringer without him giving the ok that he'd sign an extension with his new team.thats why they have power

DR_1
12-11-2011, 08:50 AM
Why would he want to play in chicago? There owner is known to be really douche when it comes to spending. Rose thinks he can do it all by himself, even tho its pretty clear he cant. And in brooklyn dwight would be the guy. (he would prob be the guy if he ended up in chicago) but orlando doesn't want the bulls garbage. Not to mention chicago would have to take back hedo. lol

:facepalm:

Raps18-19 Champ
12-11-2011, 08:53 AM
I rather the Clippers get Paul than D12.

Though this is nice.

JohnnyCash
12-11-2011, 09:08 AM
If he wants a championship, Dwight has to consider the Bulls. They may not be his preference, but if the Magic feel that they desire most what the Bulls have to offer, I don't think that he would have any real problems with it. No, I'm certainly not in his head, but I like to think about the positives going for us in this.

JohnnyCash
12-11-2011, 09:11 AM
And of course, he is not positionally what the Bulls need the most. When a guy like Howard is available though, you have to go through your options. The Bulls will be alright with or without Howard going forward, but it doesn't hurt to see how far you can go for such a gifted player.

natedogg74
12-11-2011, 09:32 AM
if that was true he wants to be the man why does he want to go to the La Lakers that is Kobe's team Bulls r the best option why wouldnt u want to play with Derrick freaking Rose but whatever

akagiredsuns
12-11-2011, 10:08 AM
Dwight says he doesn't want the Clipps and plus Bledsoe-Aminu wouldn't do anything for us as we're stacked with wings (JRich-Redick-QRich-Harper-Liggens) and PGs (Nelson-Duhon). I don't know if you mean Rockets offer for Dwight or Rockets taking part in a 3-team trade; either way, I doubt they're involved.

DWill is a willing passer who excelled in the PNR offense and would be able to get D12 the ball at all times; not to mention they are tight. Rose owns the Bulls and D12 wants to be the man, not only that, but Rose is inferior to quite a few PGs when it comes to getting the ball to his teammates. Whether that be courtvision or just not willing to pass, it hinders any star from wanting to play with a score-first PG.

I said this before and I'll say it again, if John Wall was running the show in Chitown, stars from all over would lineup to play with him... It is a mentality thing.

You have seriously lost your damn mind. Rose is the reigning MVP and you have the gall to say this? This is gonna be my new quote to post in all my contents. What a FAIL! LOL Wow just :facepalm:

IndyRealist
12-11-2011, 10:30 AM
The Nets already have a backup plan in Nene for 4yr, $65M. If Dwight gets traded anywhere else then the Nets won't have the room to sign him next year. So he's going to have to sign, somewhere.

waveycrockett
12-11-2011, 10:32 AM
Yeah I see Dwight getting Dealt before the season and Bulls cant deal Noah for another month so...

Crossfire
12-11-2011, 10:33 AM
Hope Danny can get something done.

tbomlad
12-11-2011, 10:40 AM
If he wanted to be a Clipper it would have already happened. He obviously doesn't.

Disagree. First of all, the ONLY team so far that Dwight himself has said he would play for is the Nets, not the Lakers or the Mavs. Otis included those two teams, not Dwight, because those are the teams who have probably been contacting Otis about Dwight. So teams like the Clippers, Bulls, and Celtics have just as much of a chance as the Lakers and Mavs. In fact, they have more of a chance than the Lakers because the ONLY thing Dwight has said about playing with the Lakers is that he has no interest in following in the footsteps of Shaq.

        
12-11-2011, 10:45 AM
The clippers have a more complete roster than the Bulls imo.

Paul* = Rose (*if he goes to clips)
Gordon > Brewer/Hamilton/Korver
Butler =< Deng
Griffin > Boozer/Gibson
Kaman/Jordan = Noah/Asik

Howard would be better suited with the Clippers and a real offense.

KJ21.the.truth
12-11-2011, 10:56 AM
Im ok with clips only if we get Gordon+

Hate the Chi trade

Not a Rondo fan...

D1JM
12-11-2011, 11:07 AM
The clippers have a more complete roster than the Bulls imo.

Paul* = Rose (*if he goes to clips)
Gordon > Brewer/Hamilton/Korver
Butler =< Deng
Griffin > Boozer/Gibson
Kaman/Jordan = Noah/Asik

Howard would be better suited with the Clippers and a real offense.

That's why the clippers had a better record then the bulls right?

Sha'win
12-11-2011, 11:08 AM
I wish bulls would get on with business and leave this S*$& alone! We don't need this again! Afflolo and Crawford and we're good! Trade Watson, Roonie, and Kyle to clear space. Please do it already! But nothing with those guys will happen until this C. Paul and Howard BullS*%t gets done because they want to play for a winning team... Just ignore him Chicago!!! Hell go after Lopez!!!

        
12-11-2011, 11:10 AM
That's why the clippers had a better record then the bulls right?


Dwight wants to go to LA, so why not the Clippers?

Romo2Bryant
12-11-2011, 11:13 AM
The clippers have a more complete roster than the Bulls imo.

Paul* = Rose (*if he goes to clips)
Gordon > Brewer/Hamilton/Korver
Butler =< Deng
Griffin > Boozer/Gibson
Kaman/Jordan = Noah/Asik

Howard would be better suited with the Clippers and a real offense.

First off the Clippers don't even have Chris Paul. They also would have to trade Gordon for Paul. Then they would have to trade Griffin for Howard. So, what makes you think the Clippers can get Howard and Paul without trading anyone. It's like your assuming Paul and Howard goes to the Clippers without trading anyone. However, the Bulls can afford a package to Orlando that would include players like Noah, Gibson, Deng, etc for Howard. Which means the Bulls are a more complete team than the Clippers.

effen5
12-11-2011, 11:14 AM
not to mention Clippers coach is VDN....:laugh:

All Bulls fans know how terrible of a coach he is.

IndyRealist
12-11-2011, 11:19 AM
The clippers have a more complete roster than the Bulls imo.

Paul* = Rose (*if he goes to clips)
Gordon > Brewer/Hamilton/Korver
Butler =< Deng
Griffin > Boozer/Gibson
Kaman/Jordan = Noah/Asik

Howard would be better suited with the Clippers and a real offense.

That's hilarious.
1) are you getting Paul for a bag of chips?
2) Deng is defensive beast, Butler doesn't play any defense. Griffin's probably better than Boozer, but not better than Boozer AND Gibson.
3) Gibson could be starting on half the teams in the league.
4) Kaman's injury plagued, there's no garuantee he'll return to form.

D1JM
12-11-2011, 11:19 AM
Dwight wants to go to LA, so why not the Clippers?

I never said for him not to go. I am referring to the < > as to why the clippers are more of a complete team than the bulls.


I actually like the idea of howard going to the west

kho1313
12-11-2011, 11:23 AM
More of a complete team!?!?!?!?!? HAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!!!! Right....

ChitownSports16
12-11-2011, 11:25 AM
Why would he want to play in chicago? There owner is known to be really douche when it comes to spending. Rose thinks he can do it all by himself, even tho its pretty clear he cant. And in brooklyn dwight would be the guy. (he would prob be the guy if he ended up in chicago) but orlando doesn't want the bulls garbage. Not to mention chicago would have to take back hedo. lol

Sounds to me like u scared my man.... how come u weren't laughing when another team has to take on hedo? But, I understand bro.... Lol if D12 was to get traded to the Bulls, Heat have no chance but then again I call BS on this.

IndyRealist
12-11-2011, 11:27 AM
I never said for him not to go. I am referring to the < > as to why the clippers are more of a complete team than the bulls.


I actually like the idea of howard going to the west

He's agreeing with you.

hugepatsfan
12-11-2011, 11:32 AM
he doesnt want to be on any of those teams(per reports),so have no idea why they'd be in the chase

Let me explain why BOS will at least throw their hat into the ring...

If, and I say IF, BOS is able to aquire either Dwight it could, and I say COULD, set them up for Dwight and CP3. It looks like CP3 is going to stay in NO for the year because of Stern (stupid, but that's an argument for another thread). If BOS aquired Dwight, they would have the cap to add CP3. And he doesn't necessarily have a ton of other options to go to. LA won't have cap. NY spent theirs. NJ has cap, but they wouldn't be more attractive than BOS w/ Dwight. LAC would be the only other logical destination.

I'm not saying that this is likely. I'm just saying even the remote possibility is something that makes this worth at least exploring.

ChiSoxJuan
12-11-2011, 11:42 AM
Just when I thought I understood the new CBA, the Orlando Sentinel claims that to make $110M/5yr Howard must be dealt 6 mo prior to the end of the FA period next summer. If the Magic decide to hold on to him until the Mar 15th trade deadline approaches, Howard can only be signed to an $80M/4 yr deal. This is the only leverage the Magic hold over Howard right now & consequently this is the only leverage the Bulls have.

Howard has expressed what he wants: Lakers, Nets, & Mavs. I don't think there is any doubt that the Magic want the Bulls best offer because Noah would be a marquee name they can sell down there. It's a question then of whether Howard is willing to go to a contender they can offer him the best $ deal.

CousinsEvansDUO
12-11-2011, 11:45 AM
Clippers are a joke, no offense. They don't even have their own arena for crying out loud. Why would Dwight go to the clippers to play second fiddle with the lakers? He doesn't want to be in another team's shadow. Just like the nets will be in the shadow of the knicks. I think Bulls is the most logical team he will be going to. Maybe the warriors but by a long stretch.

Sinestro
12-11-2011, 11:46 AM
Oh for crap's sake I don't want the Bulls on this any longer

The Apprentice
12-11-2011, 11:47 AM
What is wrong with players now a day? What happened to loyalty and honor? What happened to players wanting to be great? What happened to players wanting to work hard year in and year out until they achieved their goal of winning a championship? WHAT HAPPENED TO THE NBA!!!!!!!!!!

The Apprentice
12-11-2011, 11:48 AM
and yea, I am a heat fan.......

Jets012
12-11-2011, 11:56 AM
Chicago fans are soooo delusional. They act like every superstar in the NBA wants to go play for the Bulls. Then when every superstar goes to another team they whine and moan asking how could he not want to come here and play with DRose. Chicago has no chance at Howard. They would never be able to put the best package together and Howard does not want to play there anyway.

Lakeshow24KB
12-11-2011, 11:59 AM
I smell a load of :bs:

.....I hope.....

RLundi
12-11-2011, 12:04 PM
Who can Boston possibly offer? All their old guys? No thanks.

And I doubt Otis takes all of Chicago's expensive role players.

Clippers can offer the best package but it has to involve Gordon and Minnesota's unprotected draft pick.

RLundi
12-11-2011, 12:07 PM
Just when I thought I understood the new CBA, the Orlando Sentinel claims that to make $110M/5yr Howard must be dealt 6 mo prior to the end of the FA period next summer. If the Magic decide to hold on to him until the Mar 15th trade deadline approaches, Howard can only be signed to an $80M/4 yr deal. This is the only leverage the Magic hold over Howard right now & consequently this is the only leverage the Bulls have.

Howard has expressed what he wants: Lakers, Nets, & Mavs. I don't think there is any doubt that the Magic want the Bulls best offer because Noah would be a marquee name they can sell down there. It's a question then of whether Howard is willing to go to a contender they can offer him the best $ deal.

Noah is a marquee name?

In what world?

yoseppii12
12-11-2011, 12:13 PM
Chicago fans are soooo delusional. They act like every superstar in the NBA wants to go play for the Bulls. Then when every superstar goes to another team they whine and moan asking how could he not want to come here and play with DRose. Chicago has no chance at Howard. They would never be able to put the best package together and Howard does not want to play there anyway.

Not delusional.We just Bull-lieve!!!

But I kind of agree, as much as one (especially Bulls fans) would like to think that Superstars like Howard would want to go to a young championship contender (i.e; Bulls or Thunder), I can see why most superstars haven't voiced interest for Chicago.

First lets think about the other destinations.

NJN- Goes to a new program. New City. No real players on their team other than DWill. Howard will be undisputed No1 player on team. Their FO will spend whatever Howard wants.

Dallas- Everyone's old. It's Dirk's team but would become Howard's very quickly. FO/Cuban will make deals happen and put good players around Howard year after year.

Lakers- Again, everyone's old. Kobe's team/Kobe's league but thats how things work in LA. Bring in a young guy to replace the old guy heading towards the exit. Soon it would be Howard's team in one of the greatest bball cities in the world.

Now lets look at the Thunder and Bulls, who if added Howard, I personally think would be the best team in the league and for the foreseeable future (even more than Heat-by far).

Bulls- You imagine the trade would send Turk and Dwight to the Bulls, that means bye bye Noah, Boozer or Deng, Gibson or Asik, and the Charlotte Pick and probably the Mirotic rights. Now the Bulls would be centered around DRose and DHoward. But wait, when will DHoward be the undisputed man? Never, cause it's Rose's city and Rose's team and Rose is younger.

Thunder- Same story as above. Durant is younger and its Durant's team.


Superstars (other than Lebron) want to go to team's where they can be the undisputed superstar. If Howard to the Knicks would be troublesome because of Carmelo. Obviously, I could be wrong because the Heat are the perfect example of what I said won't happen, but I don't imagine DHoward going somewhere unless he is or soon will be the main guy.

Southsideheat
12-11-2011, 12:15 PM
The reason Howard doesn't have Chicago on his radar is because the bulls are established with a defined leader and players who know who their leader is. It would be a weird situation for Dwight to come in there with that going on. Thats why he preffers the Nets because they just have a mess of bad players with no direction. It's easy to come in there and do business. But Howard has to realize that many of those Bull players will be shipped out upon his arrival and a new team will be formed. A phone call from Rose would do wondors but Rose is just too old school, you love his attitude but it makes attracting other players pretty difficult.

ChiSoxJuan
12-11-2011, 12:15 PM
Noah is a marquee name?

In what world?

After the National Championships he won for Florida, Noah would definitely be a marquee name in Orlando.

Gormans Mic
12-11-2011, 12:16 PM
he doesnt want to be on any of those teams(per reports),so have no idea why they'd be in the chase


I'm so tired of this in the NBA, he'll go where he is traded and he'll play his hardest, other wise this league, is f'n done.

Southsideheat
12-11-2011, 12:20 PM
Dwight wants to go to LA, so why not the Clippers?

I've hear they don't think griffin and Dwight are a good match in the front court. Howards ideally needs a pick and pop guy at the 4.

RLundi
12-11-2011, 12:22 PM
After the National Championships he won for Florida, Noah would definitely be a marquee name in Orlando.

Gainesville is three hours out of Orlando. Trust me, Noah would not be revered here, especially not with that contract.

Pierzynski4Prez
12-11-2011, 12:24 PM
Why would he want to play in chicago? There owner is known to be really douche when it comes to spending. Rose thinks he can do it all by himself, even tho its pretty clear he cant. And in brooklyn dwight would be the guy. (he would prob be the guy if he ended up in chicago) but orlando doesn't want the bulls garbage. Not to mention chicago would have to take back hedo. lol

I would like to just 1 time hear you say something positive about another team. Every time you post, its a blatant hate post about anything you can dig up, regarding any team in any situation. Bulls could sign Dwight for the Vet minimum for 6 years, and you would still find a way to say its a ****** move and they'll regret it.

This time it was that Dwight wouldn't want to go to Chi because our owner is a "douche" according to you. He doesn't spend you say. As in he didn't go out and sign Boozer, brewer, korver, watson last offseason. He didn't give hefty extensions to deng and noah, and he isn't about to give Rose a max next season. The only person he didn't spend on was Ben Gordon, and we all know that he is living up to that contract Detroit gave him.

Southsideheat
12-11-2011, 12:24 PM
Gainesville is three hours out of Orlando. Trust me, Noah would not be revered here, especially not with that contract.

He's actually underpaid by many metrics but whatever.

BearsBullsSox
12-11-2011, 12:32 PM
You really think that? What's wrong with you?

You cant take anything Ralph says about Derrick Rose seriously, have you read his previous posts about Rose? Dude is yet another one of these stupid Magic fans who's still mad that Rose won MVP over Howard. He's transparent. Magic fans have been jealous of Rose for months, the thought that stars would come to Chicago to play with Wall over Rose prove that Ralph is full of BS. :facepalm:

DR_1
12-11-2011, 12:36 PM
You cant take anything Ralph says about Derrick Rose seriously, have you read his previous posts about Rose? Dude is yet another one of these stupid Magic fans who's still mad that Rose won MVP over Howard. He's transparent. Magic fans have been jealous of Rose for months, the thought that stars would come to Chicago to play with Wall over Rose prove that Ralph is full of BS. :facepalm:

Magic fans are slowly getting as bad as Heat fans lol.

(Not all of them, but a good majority)

RLundi
12-11-2011, 12:44 PM
You cant take anything Ralph says about Derrick Rose seriously, have you read his previous posts about Rose? Dude is yet another one of these stupid Magic fans who's still mad that Rose won MVP over Howard. He's transparent. Magic fans have been jealous of Rose for months, the thought that stars would come to Chicago to play with Wall over Rose prove that Ralph is full of BS. :facepalm:

Lol how are Magic fans jealous of D Rose? I'm a Magic fan and could not care less that he won MVP, so what on earth are you talking about??

Most Magic fans on PSD don't have any ill will toward Rose, so please stop flattering yourself. Magic fans have nothing to do with or against Chicago in any way so please don't turn this into a Bulls vs Magic thread for the love of god.

DR_1
12-11-2011, 12:45 PM
Lol how are Magic fans jealous of D Rose? I'm a Magic fan and could not care less that he won MVP, so what on earth are you talking about??

Most Magic fans on PSD don't have any ill will toward Rose, so please stop flattering yourself. Magic fans have nothing to do with or against Chicago in any way so please don't turn this into a Bulls vs Magic thread for the love of god.

He was just talking about 1 guy...

RLundi
12-11-2011, 12:49 PM
Magic fans are slowly getting as bad as Heat fans lol.

(Not all of them, but a good majority)

We're about to lose our franchise player, how the hell would you feel? Forgive us if we're a little ornery, but Magic fans are NOT like Heat fans- do not lump us in together. Many on PSD despise Bulls fans and consider their blatant, unrequited love for Rose a brainwashing. Apparently we're not like Bulls fans either if we're acquiescing to getting the best package for Dwight Howard.

What is so wrong with determining to stay relevant?

DR_1
12-11-2011, 12:53 PM
We're about to lose our franchise player, how the hell would you feel? Forgive us if we're a little ornery, but Magic fans are NOT like Heat fans- do not lump us in together. Many on PSD despise Bulls fans and consider their blatant, unrequited love for Rose a brainwashing. Apparently we're not like Bulls fans either if we're acquiescing to getting the best package for Dwight Howard.

What is so wrong with determining to stay relevant?

Ya I'm sorry that was a low blow :o

But every team goes through rebuilding...how do you think we felt the decade after MJ?

showtym24
12-11-2011, 12:55 PM
Yea all of a sudden all three teams decided hey lets go after D12!

thekmp211
12-11-2011, 12:59 PM
Your link goes to a CP3 trade article.

And everyone asking why teams are getting involved that he doesn't "want" to go to. Who cares, IT IS NOT UP TO HIM. He is under contract and the Magic are absolutely brilliant to bring back the best talent and to NOT BE HELD HOSTAGE by another cry baby NBA star.

you do know howard is doing this as a favor? so he doesn't leave the cupboard completely bare when he leaves?

that's the dynamic people seem to forget about in these situations.

kozelkid
12-11-2011, 12:59 PM
I don't just think it, I know it; Wall is a pass-first PG, hell he aved 9+apg on the Wizards... And that's the Wizards, think about what he could do with a good team.

When you're a star big, you want to play with a pass-first PG, seeming as how as a big you need to be fed the ball; playing with a score-first PG who avgs 25+ppg, not gonna be a top destination.

Correction: YOU think that.

Love has already stated he'd love to form a super team with Westbrook and Rose so your analysis is crap.

You don't like Rose; we already get that.

He's also not a pass first pg. Doesn't mean players won't play him.

His role is that of a Dwyane Wade, just plays pg instead of sg, which makes no difference.

Dwight doesn't want to play with Rose because he can't deal with the fact that a significantly younger player has already overshadowed him in endorsements and won the mvp before him.

bears88
12-11-2011, 01:00 PM
Why would he want to play in chicago? There owner is known to be really douche when it comes to spending. Rose thinks he can do it all by himself, even tho its pretty clear he cant. And in brooklyn dwight would be the guy. (he would prob be the guy if he ended up in chicago) but orlando doesn't want the bulls garbage. Not to mention chicago would have to take back hedo. lol

This is one of the most ******** post I have ever seen in PSD for a long time

rapjuicer06
12-11-2011, 01:02 PM
Ya I'm sorry that was a low blow :o

But every team goes through rebuilding...how do you think we felt the decade after MJ?

How do you think we felt after Shaq?

RLundi
12-11-2011, 01:02 PM
Ya I'm sorry that was a low blow :o

But every team goes through rebuilding...how do you think we felt the decade after MJ?

Right, every team goes through it. When you're in the situation, some leeway should be given to account for bitterness. When your wife cheats on you or you get fired from your job, you're allowed to act like a ******* for a couple days- that's just how it is and everyone understands that.

We're about to lose a top 3 talent in the NBA. Most of us won't act like d-bags, but the ones who do, give us some room to grieve, holy crap.

RLundi
12-11-2011, 01:05 PM
Dwight doesn't want to play with Rose because he can't deal with the fact that a significantly younger player has already overshadowed him in endorsements and won the mvp before him.

I'm almost positive this has NOTHING to do with it.

kozelkid
12-11-2011, 01:08 PM
I'm almost positive this has NOTHING to do with it.

I'm positive it is. Not that either can prove to each other which one is correct. But I know Raph's theory is crap cause I just proved a star who has no problem with joining Rose and his so-called "ball hogging". Raph has hated Rose for awhile now.

Dwight wants to be the man. It goes with the whole ego thing. In NJ, Dwight is the man. In LA or Dal, Dwight would eventually be the man. Not in Chicago.

All the guys like Lebron/Wade/Bosh/Dwight/Melo/deron etc. are all very close with one another from AAU and team USA. Then 3-4 years on you got another generation of stars in Rose/Love/Westbrook/Gordon/Durant who are all very close to one another as well for same reasons.

Moe Bigsley
12-11-2011, 01:11 PM
That's why the clippers had a better record then the bulls right?

You don't get it bro, Butler and Paul puts the Clippers OVER the Bulls record of 62-20 (The BEST record in the NBA last year)

kozelkid
12-11-2011, 01:12 PM
You don't get it bro, Butler and Paul puts the Clippers OVER the Bulls record of 62-20 (The BEST record in the NBA last year)

With Vinny's coaching that's highly debatable.

kjoke
12-11-2011, 01:12 PM
I'm positive it is. Not that either can prove to each other which one is correct. But I know Raph's theory is crap cause I just proved a star who has no problem with joining Rose and his so-called "ball hogging". Raph has hated Rose for awhile now.

Dwight wants to be the man. It goes with the whole ego thing. In NJ, Dwight is the man. In LA or Dal, Dwight would eventually be the man. Not in Chicago.

All the guys like Lebron/Wade/Bosh/Dwight/Melo/deron etc. are all very close with one another from AAU and team USA. Then 3-4 years on you got another generation of stars in Rose/Love/Westbrook/Gordon/Durant who are all very close to one another as well for same reasons.

I think you are very wrong with this. If a player doesn't want to go the Chicago, you can't automatically assume its "because rose is better" argument. It is ridiculous. Where do you get this Dwight wants to be the man alone, wasnt that also said for lebron: look how that turned out

kozelkid
12-11-2011, 01:15 PM
I think you are very wrong with this. If a player doesn't want to go the Chicago, you can't automatically assume its "because rose is better" argument. It is ridiculous. Where do you get this Dwight wants to be the man alone, wasnt that also said for lebron: look how that turned out

And where does the argument no star wants to play with Rose comes from?

And I do think I'm right. I'm not saying Rose is necessarily better. But I think it's pretty obvious it would Rose's team.

Besides, even Raph admits that Howard needs to be the man where he goes. And why wouldn't Howard then want to join OKC either?

RLundi
12-11-2011, 01:20 PM
I'm positive it is. Not that either can prove to each other which one is correct. But I know Raph's theory is crap cause I just proved a star who has no problem with joining Rose and his so-called "ball hogging". Raph has hated Rose for awhile now.

Dwight wants to be the man. It goes with the whole ego thing. In NJ, Dwight is the man. In LA or Dal, Dwight would eventually be the man. Not in Chicago.

All the guys like Lebron/Wade/Bosh/Dwight/Melo/deron etc. are all very close with one another from AAU and team USA. Then 3-4 years on you got another generation of stars in Rose/Love/Westbrook/Gordon/Durant who are all very close to one another as well for same reasons.

I think any big man would rather play with a distributor than a shoot-first point guard, that's nearly a given. But I don't think that alone precludes Dwight from wanting to play with Rose. Whatever qualms Dwight has (if any) playing with Rose, I sincerely doubt it's because of jealousy or because Rose won MVP last year and has more endorsements. Being the man doesn't mean being selfish. Dwight has proven to delegate and play off of other scorers, for instance the 2009 Finals.

I honestly don't think Dwight would have any problem sharing the spotlight with Rose if it came to that. It would probably be like Miami's situation: all would acquiesce Dwight is the overall better player, but it would still be Rose's team.

kjoke
12-11-2011, 01:21 PM
And where does the argument no star wants to play with Rose comes from?

And I do think I'm right. I'm not saying Rose is necessarily better. But I think it's pretty obvious it would Rose's team.

Besides, even Raph admits that Howard needs to be the man where he goes. And why wouldn't Howard then want to join OKC either?

Because why would he want to go to OKC in the first place. If he's leaving, he's leaving for a big market team. As far as the Bulls idea goes: maybe Rose isn't willing to added another superstar player because of his own ego. You could have landed LeBron (or possibly had a better chance) had rose come out committed as Wade was to adding him. I applaud rose for his belief in himself, but maybe stars don't want to play with him because he isn't willing to step back and share the spotlight.

kozelkid
12-11-2011, 01:25 PM
I think any big man would rather play with a distributor than a shoot-first point guard, that's nearly a given. But I don't think that alone precludes Dwight from wanting to play with Rose. Whatever qualms Dwight has (if any) playing with Rose, I sincerely doubt it's because of jealousy or because Rose won MVP last year and has more endorsements. Being the man doesn't mean being selfish. Dwight has proven to delegate and play off of other scorers, for instance the 2009 Finals.

I honestly don't think Dwight would have any problem sharing the spotlight with Rose if it came to that. It would probably be like Miami's situation: all would acquiesce Dwight is the overall better player, but it would still be Rose's team.

I think it is. I really don't think Dwight likes Rose as evident by a couple of very questionable (flagrant) fouls he committed on Rose in the past. But as I said, we each share our own opinion on this.


Because why would he want to go to OKC in the first place. If he's leaving, he's leaving for a big market team. As far as the Bulls idea goes: maybe Rose isn't willing to added another superstar player because of his own ego. You could have landed LeBron (or possibly had a better chance) had rose come out committed as Wade was to adding him. I applaud rose for his belief in himself, but maybe stars don't want to play with him because he isn't willing to step back and share the spotlight.

He's the one who claims he's all about winning. There is no better situation than OKC or Chicago for him to join.

Wrong about Rose. He did text Lebron. It has nothing to do with his ego. In fact it's because he doesn't want to dog on his OWN teammates in the process. Hell this is the same guy who praised Keith ****ing Bogans in the process and blamed squarely himself for ECF loss.

He put it correctly. It's job of the FO and coach, not him.

RLundi
12-11-2011, 01:26 PM
Because why would he want to go to OKC in the first place. If he's leaving, he's leaving for a big market team. As far as the Bulls idea goes: maybe Rose isn't willing to added another superstar player because of his own ego. You could have landed LeBron (or possibly had a better chance) had rose come out committed as Wade was to adding him. I applaud rose for his belief in himself, but maybe stars don't want to play with him because he isn't willing to step back and share the spotlight.

I agree, I don't think Rose would be staunchly opposed to having another superstar, but he isn't going to pucker up to anyone's rear to have it. Is that being selfish? I don't know. But it's ballsy. I respect Rose for not wanting to create a super-team, but in the end I think it hurts him.

But if he proves everyone wrong and wins a ring essentially on his own, he'll receive that much more glory as the player who didn't need the help or follow the trend, a la Dirk Nowitzki. That would immortalize him.

Maybe that's what he wants.

kozelkid
12-11-2011, 01:29 PM
I agree, I don't think Rose would be staunchly opposed to having another superstar, but he isn't going to pucker up to anyone's rear to have it. Is that being selfish? I don't know. But it's ballsy. I respect Rose for not wanting to create a super-team but in the end i think it hurts him.

But if he proves everyone wrong and wins a ring essentially on his own, he'll receive that much more glory as the player who didn't need the help or follow the trend, a la Dirk Nowitzki. That would immortalize him.

Maybe that's what he wants.

Na.

In fact, during Lebron sweepstakes, he told Lebron he wanted to join, but at the same time, all he cared about was winning.

The guy just refuses to do this cause he doesn't want to dog his teammates.

Like I said, when asked about sg upgrade (who'd obviously not steal the spotlight for Rose seeing as we aren't obviously getting Wade or Kobe), he said we'd roll with Bogans.

Sinestro
12-11-2011, 01:29 PM
He's the one who claims he's all about winning. There is no better situation than OKC or Chicago for him to join.



This. If Dwight truly wants to win why not go for the teams who are on the rise, young and each has a top 10 player on the team.

kjoke
12-11-2011, 01:32 PM
I think it is. I really don't think Dwight likes Rose as evident by a couple of very questionable (flagrant) fouls he committed on Rose in the past. But as I said, we each share our own opinion on this.



He's the one who claims he's all about winning. There is no better situation than OKC or Chicago for him to join.

Wrong about Rose. He did text Lebron. It has nothing to do with his ego. In fact it's because he doesn't want to dog on his OWN teammates in the process. Hell this is the same guy who praised Keith ****ing Bogans in the process and blamed squarely himself for ECF loss.

He put it correctly. It's job of the FO and coach, not him.

Well, its not all about winning then. I think thats pretty obvious.

As far as rose goes (I maybe somewhat wrong here) but he sent 1 text saying "you can come or you don't have to". Thats not trying to woo anyone. The FO and coach is important, but if it takes more than that to add LeBron to the team, you do what ever you can, if it 'all about winning' or course. And like the Dwight case, in Rose's case its not all about winning.

God his own teammates? You can add lebron without having to trade anyone. I don't understand how he would be undermining his teammates by saying that he wants arguably the best player in the league.

upt_
12-11-2011, 01:36 PM
Yea all of a sudden all three teams decided hey lets go after D12!

Fyi, the Bulls have been pursuing D12 for quite a while now.

kozelkid
12-11-2011, 01:37 PM
Well, its not all about winning then. I think thats pretty obvious.

Fair enough. To Lebron's credit, it was all about winning. Even if he needs a superteam. :p


As far as rose goes (I maybe somewhat wrong here) but he sent 1 text saying "you can come or you don't have to". Thats not trying to woo anyone. The FO and coach is important, but if it takes more than that to add LeBron to the team, you do what ever you can, if it 'all about winning' or course. And like the Dwight case, in Rose's case its not all about winning.

Here is the correct text, "I'm just hitting you up to kill all the rumors that I don't want to play with you. I'd like to play with you. I just want to win."

http://sports.espn.go.com/chicago/nba/news/story?id=6175093

You don't exactly win if you suck Lebron or Dwight off in the process. It's just pathetic


God his own teammates? You can add lebron without having to trade anyone. I don't understand how he would be undermining his teammates by saying that he wants arguably the best player in the league.

I think it's kinda obvious Deng would have been gone immediately.

Hester23Jordan
12-11-2011, 01:44 PM
There is no way Howard would end up in Chicago. I just don't understand why he wouldn't consider it though. I mean the Lakers and Mavs probably don't have a lot of years left of being legit contenders. It would give Howard a good shot a title the next year or two, but I feel like with an extension, he would end up in the same situation he is now in Orlando. As for the Nets, I don't see how they can be any better of an option than Chi. We can argue all about who is better between Rose and Williams, but I think Chicago has more role players and a better lineup as well as trade assets. I would love Howard in a Bulls uniform but I know the chances are slim to none and the Bulls would be fine without him as well. For Howard though, I think he should consider for options than the 3 hes interested in. Teams like Chi, OKC, LAC are all options that could benefit him for the short and long term.

ChiSoxJuan
12-11-2011, 01:56 PM
Rose was there both days that Wade visited the Bulls in the summer of 2010. He was an active recruiter then & spoke openingly to reporters about his desire to play with Wade on the Bulls. When Wade made the decision to resign with the Heat, I think Rose's pride & emotions were hurt. I think it's then when he decided he wasn't going to get strung along like that again.

I think Rose trully believes that if he plays as good as he's capable of playing HIS Bulls can win a championship. I think he has already circled the dates they play the Heat to prove just that.

retep2281
12-11-2011, 02:20 PM
I would love t see Dwight on the bulls personally, however the couple times people said him and rose aren't friends?, haven't they done commcials and promo stuff together for Adidas? Isn't there a YouTube video of them chummin it up together singing or something. The way I look at it is either get him or don't, let's just move on with the season.

South Sided
12-11-2011, 03:31 PM
This really has to go. He IS NOT GOING TO ANY OF THESE TEAMS. (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rxTbdj2c61c) I don't understand what the benefit of threads like this are. Teams, like the Bulls, can offer up a great package for the player....but if he doesn't want to play for them, like he's stated....what the hell are we talking about???

As kozel said, his loss.

This is the problem, HE HASN'T STATED ANYTHING other than the desire to be traded. You don't have a single quote from Dwight or Orlando on where he exactly wants to go. New Jersey is the only good guess because of the trip he took to Russia w/ the NBA & Prokhorov.

ESPN is making Sh-t up as they have always done & all other media outlets are following suit to get attention. Views for media means money. Let's calm down & see what happens. Creating your own scenario's is fine but lets stop acting like we have any facts. The only people with the facts are the teams & players, & they aren't saying much up to this point.

Where ever he & Paul end up it will have a BIG impact on the league. I'll def. enjoy watching how it unfolds......

P.S. Bulls & D.Rose will win it all anyway!!!!!!!!!!!!!