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View Full Version : Do you guys believe in that building a culture BS?



Chronz
12-07-2011, 01:16 AM
Excuse the generalization but I needed a flashy title, Im not saying theres anything wrong with trying to build a nice rep/mantra for your team to follow, so long as it doesnt interfere with what I consider to be strategic advantages.

Im a fan of the Rockets but I havent been a fan of the "culture" they have tried to sell fans on.

Here are the examples;

#1: Building a winning tradition

in 2005 the Houston Rockets suffered through an injury plagued season and had no shot at the playoffs. Instead of tanking (like most of the other teams were doing) JVG played all his vets in an effort to win these meaningless games, all for the sake of team morale and to build a culture of winning. The logic being that you cant preach winning when your playing to lose.

Does that sound defensible to you? In the end it cost the Rockets a chance to move up in the lottery and a chance at the players they coveted.




Example #2: Not caring for playoff positioning
In 2004 the Rockets were in full control of their destiny, they could have tanked a few games to end up with a favorable matchup (one of the weaker Sacramento Kings or Seattle Supersonics) in a 3-6 matchup. Instead they played to win and drew the much tougher Dallas Mavericks.

The logic being that you have to get through the best anyways, but this completely ignores the fact that matchups matter in the playoffs, if you can avoid or delay an opponent, you should take it. You never know when someone might pull an upset and make your run to the Finals that much easier.


So are these 2 scenarios defensible or are they simply outdated philosophies?

don'tfireNedCo
12-07-2011, 01:20 AM
you are a rocket fan? who is your favorite team? all these years i was under the impression that you were one of us.

to engage the topic tho, remembering the clips playoff run year with brand and MDsr, we did lose a few games towards the end of that season to position ourselves for nuggets match and we did advance to 2nd round against the suns. there is a logic to some intentional Ls for playoff positioning, but losing for lottery can easily turn into an annual event.

Chronz
12-07-2011, 01:27 AM
Good example, we almost made it to the WCF because of that and we definitely took advantage of our matchups over the Nuggs (I was there when Ross LOCKED DOWN on Melo)

Im a fan of a few teams, always have been. Clippers are simply the closest to my heart, a result of my upbringing that Ive already explained. If that makes me an outcast so be it, Im more a fan of the NBA than any 1 team.

don'tfireNedCo
12-07-2011, 01:29 AM
Im a fan of a few teams, always have been. Clippers are simply the closest to my heart, a result of my upbringing that Ive already explained. If that makes me an outcast so be it, Im more a fan of the NBA than any 1 team.

haha chill out man that won't make you an outcast, you've been posting with us for what, 5 years now? you do have some oddities socially, but you are the most knowledgeable clipper poster we have. relax brother.

bholly
12-07-2011, 01:40 AM
haha chill out man that won't make you an outcast, you've been posting with us for what, 5 years now? you do have some oddities socially, but you are the most knowledgeable clipper poster we have. relax brother.

the wording of this made me laugh. it isn't true is it? chronz is pretty much the best poster here, and i've never noticed anything weird. other than being a clipper fan.

Chronz
12-07-2011, 04:28 AM
LOL, those "social oddities" wouldnt stem from my tendency to disagree with you guys from time to time does it?

FYI DFNC, Not sure if Ive ever told you but the reason Im a Rockets fan is because one of the first Clipper games I can recall going to involved a showdown between Nique and Dream. Ever since then Ive been hooked, on both

abe_froman
12-07-2011, 04:35 AM
yes,i totally do.having gone through bulls 99-04 mess,to post that.i have come to buy into it big time.but i agree it shouldnt interfere with what would be best and think strategically

Chill_Will_24
12-07-2011, 04:38 AM
Good example, we almost made it to the WCF because of that and we definitely took advantage of our matchups over the Nuggs (I was there when Ross LOCKED DOWN on Melo)

Im a fan of a few teams, always have been. Clippers are simply the closest to my heart, a result of my upbringing that Ive already explained. If that makes me an outcast so be it, Im more a fan of the NBA than any 1 team.

No wonder your so level and unbiased. Your like the anti-homer

Chronz
12-07-2011, 04:49 AM
No wonder your so level and unbiased. Your like the anti-homer

And your probably on my side because I just sucked off your team a few minutes ago.

bholly is legit tho, much respect to you too

lol jk chill_will

Chill_Will_24
12-07-2011, 04:54 AM
And your probably on my side because I just sucked off your team a few minutes ago.

bholly is legit tho, much respect to you too

lol jk chill_will

Eh you didnt say anything i didnt know. Anyone that doesnt see hoe Dwight and Deron can become a power is blind.

I more respect how you go about your debating. All facts with stats and data to prove it. I seen you go at it and tear up Bulls fans and Knicks fans (not easy fans to debate with) as well as many others. Props

ight im done jockin you now

Korman12
12-07-2011, 04:56 AM
Is it easy to say that each of the organizations have a standard philosophy like the ones you gave the Rockets, though?

For so many teams it's hard to find a current sense of direction, and I say that mostly because I'm a 76ers fan, and the only tangible direction I can get a sense of is giving the younger players as much of an opportunity as possible to earn their positions - but you can say that about a lot of teams. And even so, that's more of a by-product of the situation the Sixers are currently in, rather than one of historical practice.

In terms of saying it's 'defensible,' I think you can only say it if it has a margin of success, or at least consistency. Culture is rarely a product of an organization (outside of say, the Lakers), but more so in the coaching/ownership. It changes flags every generation.

lakers4sho
12-07-2011, 05:16 AM
I feel that "playoff positioning" is more for up-and-coming playoff teams who haven't experienced the playoff grind that much yet. As newbies to the show, they should seek to have as many advantages as possible, matchups being one of the biggest. Also works for middle of the pack playoff teams.

But once you've established yourself as a perennial contender, a championship caliber team perhaps, I believe in the idea of going through the best in order to be the best. Plus moving up the seeds gives you greater chances for HCA, which I think is a crucial advantage to have, everything else being equal.

don'tfireNedCo
12-07-2011, 07:30 AM
LOL, those "social oddities" wouldnt stem from my tendency to disagree with you guys from time to time does it?

FYI DFNC, Not sure if Ive ever told you but the reason Im a Rockets fan is because one of the first Clipper games I can recall going to involved a showdown between Nique and Dream. Ever since then Ive been hooked, on both

haha no it's got more to do with the fact that we have been posting together across 2 websites for nearly half a dozen years with less than a dozen hardcore clipper fans and yet you don't really know any of our names or exchange/express any emotions. you are in some way impersonal poster to get to know, but believe me when i say this, you have earned your right to be called a clipper poster since you were there with us from the day 1.
and some old memories you bring up with Nique in this discussion lmao we did have some awesome battles didn't we :)

don'tfireNedCo
12-07-2011, 07:38 AM
oh and BTW ironically the first clipper game i watched at the sports arena many eons ago was also a clipper vs rocket game. hakeem was something else especially in person, although that was when manning and harper roamed the arena with gary grant still playing in red white and blue.
man i need my hand to heal so i can get back to the normal routine. being up pass 3 in the morning posting seems a bit crazy.

theheatles
12-07-2011, 09:06 AM
in 2005 the Houston Rockets suffered through an injury plagued season and had no shot at the playoffs. Instead of tanking (like most of the other teams were doing) JVG played all his vets in an effort to win these meaningless games, all for the sake of team morale and to build a culture of winning.


van gundy just wanted to improve his own record

drose>mj
12-07-2011, 11:11 AM
bulls culture=greatness
heat culture=choke in the playoffs.

PhillyFaninLA
12-07-2011, 11:24 AM
Cultures evolve naturally and change naturally based on what is done. Do I believe in building one, no but I believe they are very real.

HeatKing6
12-07-2011, 11:32 AM
bulls culture=greatness
heat culture=choke in the playoffs.

:facepalm: who is this idiot?

PhillyFaninLA
12-07-2011, 11:33 AM
bulls culture=greatness
heat culture=choke in the playoffs.


I forget who beat the Bulls in the playoffs. I'd love my Sixers to choke like the Heat did last year.

arlubas
12-07-2011, 11:49 AM
Morally both the decisions were right. However the world of sports is a dirty one and if you want to achieve your goal, you should use any means you have at your disposal. If that means losing a few games down the line on purpose, then so be it.

What I'm trying to say is that the logic behind both occasions has been the right thing to do but that doesn't mean that the right thing to do is always the best thing for you or your team. It's all about strategicaly planning your season depending on how it is actually shaping up over its course. If that means that you probably ain't going nowhere with it then you might as well try to get the highest pick you can or the easiest opponent matching up to you in the POs.

JordansBulls
12-07-2011, 11:56 AM
Excuse the generalization but I needed a flashy title, Im not saying theres anything wrong with trying to build a nice rep/mantra for your team to follow, so long as it doesnt interfere with what I consider to be strategic advantages.

Im a fan of the Rockets but I havent been a fan of the "culture" they have tried to sell fans on.

Here are the examples;

#1: Building a winning tradition

in 2005 the Houston Rockets suffered through an injury plagued season and had no shot at the playoffs. Instead of tanking (like most of the other teams were doing) JVG played all his vets in an effort to win these meaningless games, all for the sake of team morale and to build a culture of winning. The logic being that you cant preach winning when your playing to lose.

Does that sound defensible to you? In the end it cost the Rockets a chance to move up in the lottery and a chance at the players they coveted.




Example #2: Not caring for playoff positioning
In 2004 the Rockets were in full control of their destiny, they could have tanked a few games to end up with a favorable matchup (one of the weaker Sacramento Kings or Seattle Supersonics) in a 3-6 matchup. Instead they played to win and drew the much tougher Dallas Mavericks.

The logic being that you have to get through the best anyways, but this completely ignores the fact that matchups matter in the playoffs, if you can avoid or delay an opponent, you should take it. You never know when someone might pull an upset and make your run to the Finals that much easier.


So are these 2 scenarios defensible or are they simply outdated philosophies?


I feel that if you are not going to have HCA in the series then you should do what you can to play the team that you are more likely to beat. Houston in 2009 was able to do that with Portland despite not having HCA.

PacersForLife
12-07-2011, 12:39 PM
This has been the story for Indiana the past few years. They could have tanked the year before last year and years before, but Jim O'Brien insisted on winning instead. Last year when he got fired and Frank Vogel came in we actually won and I think making the playoffs was key in building confidence in such a young team. If you are an older team and are actually trying to get the 8th seed then that's just pointless.

spartanbear
12-07-2011, 12:45 PM
Does that sound defensible to you? In the end it cost the Rockets a chance to move up in the lottery and a chance at the players they coveted.




Example #2: Not caring for playoff positioning
In 2004 the Rockets were in full control of their destiny, they could have tanked a few games to end up with a favorable matchup (one of the weaker Sacramento Kings or Seattle Supersonics) in a 3-6 matchup. Instead they played to win and drew the much tougher Dallas Mavericks.

The logic being that you have to get through the best anyways, but this completely ignores the fact that matchups matter in the playoffs, if you can avoid or delay an opponent, you should take it. You never know when someone might pull an upset and make your run to the Finals that much easier.


So are these 2 scenarios defensible or are they simply outdated philosophies?

I think so. Ultimately you play to win the games right? Regardless of the myriad of possibilities that might occur. It's still all about wins and loses, right? Neither scenario guarantees the desired outcome. So just play the games... to win and let the chips fall. As a fan I'd prefer to watch my team try to win (now).