PDA

View Full Version : NBA All Time Redraft Voting #4 Raptors @ #1 Knicks



Ebbs
11-28-2011, 04:52 PM
NBA All Time Redraft Voting!

The following teams have been assembled and are now playing each other in a fantasy first round match up. For this game please assume that all players are in their primes and playing at the top of their game. Injuries are not a factor for this game as every single player is playing at his best.

Please take the time to read the write ups and put some thought into your vote as many of the GM’s in this spent a lot of time on this game.

No this obviously isn’t real.

If you think it’s stupid go to another thread.

Other than that have fun and argue for whom you believe has the better team.

Toronto Raptors

Depth Chart:
PG: #30 Terry Porter/#1 Rod Strickland
SG: #24 Kobe Bryant/#22 Danny Ainge/#8 Monta Ellis
SF: #42 James Worthy/#9 Andre Iguodala
PF: #32 Amar'e Stoudemire/#53 Darryl Dawkins/#10 Red Kerr
C: #43 Nate Thurmond/#6 Tyson Chandler


Vs.

New York Knicks

C - Artis Gilmore / Zydrunas Ilgauskas / Emeka Okafor
PF - Pau Gasol / Billy Cunningham / Andrei Kirilenko
SF - Detlef Schrempf / Andrei Kirilenko
SG - Michael Jordan / Jim Jackson
PG - Alvin Robertson / Steve Kerr/

Raptors Write Up



[Raptors Writeup:]

Offense: The matchup everyone has always wanted to see, prime Kobe vs prime MJ. While MJ is the best of all time, if anyone is able to give him the biggest challenge in a 7 game series it’s Kobe. Very similar skillsets, attitudes, and approaches to the game. We feel that Kobe would challenge MJ and make him work on BOTH ends of the court. No one player can guard Kobe Bryant one on one, so we feel that Kobe will be able to get his on the offensive end. Averaging 30 ppg in this series is still a good possibility. Our big advantage on offense is the matchup at SF with Worthy vs Schrempf. We feel Worthy would have a dominant series with Detlef guarding him for the majority of the game. Worthy is a very efficient scorer at the SF spot, averaging 54%fg, 58%TS, and 55%eFG in the playoffs. The gameplan here is to get Worthy, one of the great playoff performers of his era, going against Detlef, who isn’t known as a good defender by any means. At the PF spot, we have Amare being guarded by Pau Gasol. Amare has always had his way with Pau on the offensive end, and has had many big games against him in their matchup throughout their careers (averages 23 pts, 10 rebs, 52%fg in the regular season, and 24 pts, 7 rebs, 52%fg in the playoffs). With Kobe and Worthy attacking, and our great 3 pt shooters surrounding them (Porter and Ainge) We feel our team would have no problems scoring against these NY Knicks, whether it be inside, or outside

Defense: The #1 priority is obviously stopping MJ. We feel that we can live up to that task with the amount of athleticism and defensive prowess we have at the wing spots. Not only will Kobe be guarding him (who is 9 time 1st all-nba defense), but we have Iguodala who is the best defender in the NBA today, and James Worthy to throw at him at times as well. We also have one of the great help defenders of all time, Nate Thurmond, in the paint protecting the rim from the drives from MJ, with Tyson Chandler coming off the bench. Jordan will have a hard time dominating this series with the amount of elite defenders and help defenders we have. Another big task is guarding Artis Gilmore, and to do that, we have Thurmond, who again is one of the all-time great defenders. Thurmond has guarded the likes of Wilt and Kareem with great success. We think Thurmond will be able to do a great job of containing Art Gilmore and making life difficult for him inside the paint. As for Pau and Amare matchup, they usually don’t guard each other with much success, so that matchup is pretty much a wash. Both players should have solid series’, but Pau’s impact won’t be great enough to take over this series. We also expect to see AK47 play good mins to guard Worthy and coverup the mismatch he’ll have with Detlef. If that is the case, we feel a 2-3 zone will work in this situation, with Alvin Robertson, MJ, and AK47 on the perimeter, who aren’t great 3pt shooters by any means. Going in a zone would make this team much easier to guard and protect the paint against their inside threats.

Overall: We feel like we can win this series because we have the biggest mismatch, Worthy vs Schrempf, and plan to take full advantage of it. We can also contain their best players because we have the elite defenders to live up to that task, and make life tough on their superstars. We have enough championship experience, dominant playoff performers, and offensive firepower to knock off the Knicks, and make the conference finals.

Knicks Write Up:


Congrats to Saddler/Eagles/Juno on making the 2nd round. I think they had a good draft but as we go through the matchups you will slowly realize that Raptors would not be able to beat the Knicks in a 7 game series. I’ll begin with traditional matchups because they are user friendly but be sure to read the full breakdowns at the end as well. GL Raptors.

PG – Alvin Robertson vs. Terry Porter
Alvin Robertson was a 17ppg/6apg/6rpg versatile type of PG who would fill a stat sheet and help you win in a variety ways. What made him special however, was his defense. He and Gary Payton are the only two PGs in NBA History to win DPOY. He’s the NBAs all-time leader in steals per game with an absurd 2.7 per game for his career. This is critical because the Raptors have an uptempo team(If for some reason they slow down and go in a half-court then that’s even better). It will be hard for them to run the floor with two DPOY players in the open court. MJ and Robertson will wreak havoc in the passing lanes and make life difficult for Porter all game. This is a reason why I picked Robertson with Porter left on the board. I knew I’d get scoring, passing, AND elite defense.

Edge: Knicks

SG – Michael Jordan vs. Kobe Bryant
Bad news for them. They got matched up against the only team in the redraft that would outplay them at the SG position. Listen, you know the names. You know the stats. You know the ring counts. The MVPs. . Not only is Jordan the better player (I’m not going to waste anyone’s time arguing that) but this would be the ultimate ego-check for Kobe Bryant who wouldn’t be able to handle it. Remember young Kobe getting abused by MJ in the late 90s in regular season and all-star games? This is the same thing but worse because he’d just keep shooting. I had a feeling about something so I took the time and looked it up. Think real hard for a second. How does Kobe do in elimination games? Games where he can close out another team or his team can be knocked out of the playoffs? I compiled the shooting numbers over a decade of games where the Lakers sealed a title win or were eliminated for the playoffs. Numbers in parenthesis are 3pt shots. Here are the results:
7-18 (0-5), 6-24 (0-6), 10-23 (2-5), 7-22 (3-9), 13-33 (2-8), 8-16 (4-8), 7-21 (0-2), 9-19 (2-5), 7-16 (2-3), 7-18(2-3), 8-27 (2-6), 7-16 (1-3)

Final Numbers: 96-253 (38% FG) 18-63 (29%3pt)
Averaging: 8-21 from the field (1.5-5 from 3pt)

That’s a grant total of 0 games shooting over 50% from the field. He wants so desperately to be remembered as the hero in these games that he will shoot to a point of detriment for his team. That’s the reason Kobe’s career TS% drops in the postseason while Jordan’s stays the same. These horrific elimination game numbers. This whole series would be an elimination game for Kobe. Factor in that Jordan is also better defender and a former DPOY and that Jordan also gets to the line significantly more than Kobe and could get him into foul trouble. Kobe would shoot his team out of too many games.

Edge: Knicks

SF – Detlef Schrempf vs. James Worthy
Detlef at his peak averaged 19ppg/9rpg/6apg. Worthy at his peak averaged 21ppg/6rpg/4apg. Detlef was an underrated passer, lights out shooter who could space the floor (averaging over 50% from 3pt in ‘95) and get to the basket (6FTA per game for his career). Worthy was a player who thrived in transition (Hi Magic.) but couldn’t shoot from the perimeter (24% from 3pt for his career) and didn’t get to the line (career high for a season was 4.7 FTA per game). Realize two things about this matchup:
1. Detlef is one of the most efficient scorers in NBA History and teaming him with Jordan would make his life easier.
2. Worthy may have been better but teaming him with Porter instead of Magic would make his life harder.

Edge: Raptors

PF – Pau Gasol vs. Amar’e Stoudemire
Gasol is a more complete player than Amar’e. Point blank. He has more of a post game, is a better rebounder, and can play defense. This is why I picked him before Amar’e and was trying to trade up to get him. He’s the perfect sidekick to an elite wing player like a Jordan/Kobe/etc. Meanwhile, let’s take a look at Amare’s personal profile:
Likes? Pick and rolls, and isolation face ups.
Dislikes? Rebounding, boxing out, playing any defense at all.
This is why having Steve Nash and being on the Suns was perfect for him. He could run pick and rolls, place his face up game, and get his 25 points. You put him on this team with a stud wing and suddenly his game suffers. I saw it firsthand. He doesn’t fit the triangle because he’s not a post player and I think he’d have an issue getting his touches with Kobe.

Edge: Knicks

C – Artis Gilmore vs. Nate Thurmond
This matchup boils down to 1 issue. Thurmond is great defensively. Gilmore is great offensively and defensively. In fact, Gilmore had more offensive win shares in two seasons at age 31 and 32 (8.3 + 8.4 = 16.7) than Thurmond had in his entire career 1963-1977 (-0.9, 1.0, 0.3, 1.7, 0.5, 0.5, 0.7, 3.8, 2.6, 3.2, 2.6, -0.8, 0.2, 0.5 = 15.8). Gilmore is the most efficient scorer in NBA History with a Career TS% of 62%. Thurmond has a career TS% of 47%. That is a drastic difference but we should adjust for different eras. During Thurmond’s era the average TS% was around 50% meaning he was 3% worse than the average player. During Gilmore’s era the average TS% was around 52% meaning he was 10% better than the average player. I concede that Thurmond was a great defensive player but Gilmore has a size advantage and never forced shots which makes him an ideal 3rd / 4th option. His 7’2 lefty jump hook would still do a lot more damage than the inefficient Thurmond.

Edge: Knicks

Bench - Kerr-Harper-Jackson-AK47-Cunningham-BigZ-Okafor vs. Strickland-Ainge-Iggy-Dawkins-Chandler

You need a bench that can give you scoring and defense. I get defense at the PG spot from Harper, the wing from AK47, and in the post from Okafor. I get shooting/scoring from Kerr-Jackson-Cunningham-Big Z. It creates a good balance and allows me to defend and score on a variety of matchups. Plus Cunningham was a 6th man of the year for the championship Sixers team and fits his backup role perfectly. For the Raptors, I think he made a mistake picking Chandler and Dawkins. One, because they are both centers and it would force one of them out of position. Two, because he really has no true post-up bigman to throw the ball too. Iggy and Strickland were good picks though so even though I believe my bench is better I think it’s close enough to call it a wash.

Edge: Even

Overall Breakdown
The Knicks are a versatile team with set roles and players who can produce on both ends of the floor. MJ is surrounded by 3 players in the top 60 all-time in TS% (Gilmore 1, Detlef 37, Pau 51) for the first time in his career he has help. Pau is a true #2 option. Gilmore is a strong #3 who is an elite defender. Schrempf can score but is also known for his passing and floor spacing. Robertson would thrive focusing his attention on defense and slashing. We can push the tempo with Robertson-MJ-Schrempf-AK47 and then we can slide right into the triangle with Jordan, Gilmore in the post, Gasol in the mid-range with Schrempf spotting up in the corner for an easy trey if the defense cheats. Meanwhile, Amar’e and Worthy’s games would both suffer losing out on Nash and Magic. Worthy would not be as successful in the halfcourt and Amar’e wouldn’t have an elite PG to run the pick and roll. Thurmond is also a poor offensive option forcing Kobe to take too many shots and we know how that goes in big games. With superior players in 4 starting positions, more efficient scoring, better post players, the best game closer, and balance, the Knicks believe they deserve to advance to the Conference Finals.

RevisIsland
11-28-2011, 04:56 PM
The Knicks have the best player and are the better constructed team.

Eagles4Lyfe
11-28-2011, 05:12 PM
How is Amare vs Gasol an advantage Knicks???
Gasol's the better all around player but its proven Gasol can't stop Amare. In fact if you look at their head to head stats, they've both been able to get their own but when it comes to the playoffs Amare outduels Gasol. By no means is that a wash..

Not to mention the bench being a wash is also incorrect. Here is why we have more depth and better role players suited for our team.
If he brings in Kerr we can easily bring in Monta who would run laps around Kerr forcing the bulls to bench Kerr or keep him of the floor and even if he was on the floor guarding him would be no problem for Ellis because we have tremendous help defenders who can help contain the lanes.

Not to mention another fact Kobe is excellent at getting to the hoop and drawing fouls and getting to the line with ease. Yes MJ can do the same but if you take MJ to the bench our defense is more solid than enough to contain any of their other guys from taking over and forcing them to struggle to get anything done.
If Kobe goes to the bench were more than good with bringing Iggy in to contain MJ while our secondary scorers step up.

Chacarron
11-28-2011, 05:15 PM
How do the Knicks have Derek Harper? My team drafted him and traded him to the Nets. There is something wrong here.

The_Jamal
11-28-2011, 05:20 PM
hmmm, probably going to sit on this match-up a bit.

Eagles4Lyfe
11-28-2011, 05:33 PM
How do the Knicks have Derek Harper? My team drafted him and traded him to the Nets. There is something wrong here.

I was wondering the same but I was going to wait untill KOB came on to see if he made a mistake accidentally.

PatsSoxKnicks
11-28-2011, 05:47 PM
Not gonna lie, the Knicks write-up convinced me they could win this matchup rather easily (like in 5 games or so). Although, the Amare-Pau matchup is closer to a wash then to being an advantage for Pau.

http://www.basketball-reference.com/play-index/h2h_finder.cgi?request=1&p1=stoudam01&p2=gasolpa01

Actually, Amare is better in the postseason against Pau. Regardless, that minor difference won't make a difference in the fact that the Knicks are still superior in at least 3 of the 5 starting positions. Also, the Knicks points about Kobe are completely true. He will shoot to the amount that its a detriment to the Raptors.

http://espn.go.com/blog/truehoop/post/_/id/24200/the-truth-about-kobe-bryant-in-crunch-time


"I sometimes think Kobe is so addicted to being in control that he would rather shoot the ball when guarded, or even double-teamed, than dish it to an open teammate," Jackson wrote in his 2004 book "The Last Season." "He is saying to himself: how can he trust anyone else? Well, he should learn to trust ..."


http://kobe-bryant-michael-jordan.com/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=78&Itemid=96

MJ's #'s blow the socks off Kobe's #'s in the Finals. To even insinuate that the 2 are close, is completely false.


Game Winning Shots:

Michael Jordan made 33 out of 58 game winning shots which is a 56.9% shooting percentage, while Kobe has has made 29 but attempted more game winners, and is a 27% career shooter in game winning situations.

BTW, shooting 56.9% in game winning shots is just flat out ridonculous.

The_Jamal
11-28-2011, 05:51 PM
Can't vote against the Knicks. The Raptors have some nice match-ups against Knicks with Kobe on MJ, Thurmond on Gilmore and Worthy on Detlef, but it's not enough to overcome the talent difference.

Rivera
11-28-2011, 05:54 PM
Raps

i really really had to think about this one but if anyone is gonna beat the knicks its the raps

porter v robertson is a wash IMO....robertson was great defensivley but hurts Jordan Offensivley because Robertson couldnt shoot a lick! Jordan had the best mid range game ever but we all know jordan struggled at the 3 point line...robertson cant strech the D and the raps could pack the paint against the knicks

the knicks only have one outside shooter thats going to play significant minutes and thats shremphf...if kerr plays significant minutes its another advantage for the raps...

porter isnt the greatest offensive player but at least he wont clash with kobe....a porter/kobe backcourt is very similar to a fisher/kobe backcourt which has worked for 5 championships...porter isnt gonna get in kobe's way offensivley but robertson is gonna get in jordans way because he cant space the floor


kobe v jordan is legendary matchup head to head these two beast will get the best of one another

schremph v worthy is another Raps advantage...as much as i LOVE deltlef shremphf....the raps has a considerable advantage here with worthy

gasol v amare....i know how great gasol is...but is this really an advantage for the knicks? i mean do you trust gasol come playoff time? because i dont..its been proven that if you rough gasol up in the playoffs he will fold..amare went against one of the best post defenders of all time (tim duncan) and amare held his own...i know amares defficincies on D but i trust amare way more than i would trust pau gasol

gilmore v thurmond...gilmore has the advantage here but thurmond was a great..and i mean GREAT low post defender.....he wont do much against thurmond

at the end i trust the raps 2nd and 3rd options (worthy and amare) more than i trust chicagos 2nd option (pau gasol)

i have the raps in this matchup

Catfish1314
11-28-2011, 07:12 PM
gasol v amare....i know how great gasol is...but is this really an advantage for the knicks? i mean do you trust gasol come playoff time? because i dont..its been proven that if you rough gasol up in the playoffs he will fold..amare went against one of the best post defenders of all time (tim duncan) and amare held his own...i know amares defficincies on D but i trust amare way more than i would trust pau gasol


Who is roughing up Gasol in this series? Amar'e Stoudemire?

I really like both teams but homecourt advantage and a superior defense on the perimeter gives New York the edge. Plus Michael Jordan against Kobe Bryant isn't actually that close. MJ was an elite defender while Kobe's defense has been overrated his entire career.

Knicks in 6 or 7.

Ebbs
11-28-2011, 07:21 PM
What Catty said in all seriousness, MJ and Kobe isn't close.

PatsSoxKnicks
11-28-2011, 07:37 PM
What Catty said in all seriousness, MJ and Kobe isn't close.

I said that earlier....

And I gave some evidence.


Who is roughing up Gasol in this series? Amar'e Stoudemire?

I really like both teams but homecourt advantage and a superior defense on the perimeter gives New York the edge. Plus Michael Jordan against Kobe Bryant isn't actually that close. MJ was an elite defender while Kobe's defense has been overrated his entire career.

Knicks in 6 or 7.

Yup, Kobe is closer to the #6 or 7 SG all-time than he is to Jordan. But a lot of people are fooled, which will help the Raptors out in the voting.

Honestly, with the awesome write-up the Knicks did, I could see them winning in 5. They're the more talented team, better built and their write-up was better, which doesn't bode well for the Raptors.

Catfish1314
11-28-2011, 07:47 PM
I said that earlier....

And I gave some evidence.

This is PSD. You don't need evidence.

knicks=love
11-28-2011, 07:54 PM
From North Carolina.. at guard, 6'6".. MICHAEL JORDAN


god that gives me chills. it's hard for me to go against my favorite player and idle growing up in anything. both write ups were great, but i think KoB's had the edge.

knicks in 6, possibly 7. great jobs to both teams.

PatsSoxKnicks
11-28-2011, 08:12 PM
From North Carolina.. at guard, 6'6".. MICHAEL JORDAN


god that gives me chills. it's hard for me to go against my favorite player and idle growing up in anything. both write ups were great, but i think KoB's had the edge.

knicks in 6, possibly 7. great jobs to both teams.

Aren't you a Knicks fan? So how can MJ be your favorite player? He tortured us constantly. :cry:

Although, I know what you mean. He was just so awesome that you had to respect him despite the fact that he'd beat us every time.


This is PSD. You don't need evidence.

:laugh2: So true.

knicks=love
11-28-2011, 08:18 PM
Aren't you a Knicks fan? So how can MJ be your favorite player? He tortured us constantly. :cry:

i have the same birthday as jordan. i'm a huge knicks fan though (which by the way, has nothing to do with my vote) and would've loved to see him play here. i literally copied everything jordan did during his career, like having his tongue out. :p

PatsSoxKnicks
11-28-2011, 08:24 PM
That is a drastic difference but we should adjust for different eras. During Thurmond’s era the average TS% was around 50% meaning he was 3% worse than the average player. During Gilmore’s era the average TS% was around 52% meaning he was 10% better than the average player.

KoB, off-topic, but I'm wondering where you got those numbers from.

roshan3ai
11-28-2011, 08:33 PM
Holy hell the Raps are surging back

LA_Raiders
11-28-2011, 08:40 PM
Raptors in 7 Games. Kobe closes the game at the buzzer 87-86

PatsSoxKnicks
11-28-2011, 08:43 PM
Holy hell the Raps are surging back

.

NYKalltheway
11-28-2011, 08:52 PM
I really like the Raptors team, but it's not made to beat the Knicks. Knicks in 4 imo

Eagles4Lyfe
11-28-2011, 08:54 PM
Wow what a tease 4 back now after getting romped at the start :pray: cmonnnnnnn babyy..

Also its not farfetched to think the Raptors winning isn't possible. People are just seeing MJ and thinking he's going to dominate and all.

But have people ever seen Kobe's stats against other elite SG's?? the 03 Tmac, the 06 Wade etc???? He goes toe to toe with them, no one stops him and he still gets his own. I don't get why people are trying to argue Kobe can be stopped and managed but MJ can't. Ya MJ best player to ever live but if you slow MJ get him in foul trouble double him what the hell is he going to do?? Detlef is his only true shooter in the starting unit and if Detlefs getting abused by Worthy and he decides to bring AK in then that freaken plays into our hands more.

Zone that and who's going to be his shooter??? Alvin is a slasher, AK can't shoot if his life depended on it who's going to stretch his floor then??
People need to stop seeing MJ and get over it. Blowing Kobe out of proportion is also hilarious he's never been a non factor EVERR..

If MJ scores 40 Kobe will score 30-35 too, Ya MJ may do it more efficiently but its not that major a difference.

Evolution23
11-28-2011, 08:59 PM
Its hard to go against mj but Raptors have better defense and 3 superstars compared to the Knicks 2

PatsSoxKnicks
11-28-2011, 09:05 PM
I really like the Raptors team, but it's not made to beat the Knicks. Knicks in 4 imo

I actually had the Raptors 3rd in the conference seeding but the Knicks are just better.

Eagles4Lyfe
11-28-2011, 09:07 PM
Who is roughing up Gasol in this series? Amar'e Stoudemire?

I really like both teams but homecourt advantage and a superior defense on the perimeter gives New York the edge. Plus Michael Jordan against Kobe Bryant isn't actually that close. MJ was an elite defender while Kobe's defense has been overrated his entire career.

Knicks in 6 or 7.

What's wrong with that notion??? Amare has roughed up gasol in the playoffs it's a fact, why is that hard to believe??? Amare can body if need be its not like he's some weak guy who gets manhandled. It's been proven and we see it all the time how Gasol flops defensively that style wouldn't work here.

Another fact people are forgetting is Thurmond isn't some Ben Wallace who's inefficient offensively the dude can flat out put it in the hoop if need be. He's not going to be amazing stats but his pitch in points along with Porters shooting is what's going to be the difference. If this gets into a shootout we can outscore the Knicks easily.

Chacarron
11-28-2011, 09:22 PM
The Raps got lucky, their matchup is happening while many Lakers fans are coming back from the long offseason.

I still take the Knicks.

PatsSoxKnicks
11-28-2011, 09:23 PM
What's wrong with that notion??? Amare has roughed up gasol in the playoffs it's a fact, why is that hard to believe??? Amare can body if need be its not like he's some weak guy who gets manhandled. It's been proven and we see it all the time how Gasol flops defensively that style wouldn't work here.

Another fact people are forgetting is Thurmond isn't some Ben Wallace who's inefficient offensively the dude can flat out put it in the hoop if need be. He's not going to be amazing stats but his pitch in points along with Porters shooting is what's going to be the difference. If this gets into a shootout we can outscore the Knicks easily.

I think you should focus on arguing points like these rather than the MJ vs. Kobe. You aren't winning that, except with Laker fans. However, you do have a very potent scoring team with Amare', Worthy and Kobe but the Knicks also have great perimeter defense as well as post D with Gilmore.

I'd like to see you guys counter some of the points that KoB made in his write-up.

The_Jamal
11-28-2011, 09:23 PM
wow raps surging back.

PatsSoxKnicks
11-28-2011, 09:26 PM
The Raps got lucky, their matchup is happening while many Lakers fans are coming back from the long offseason.


Yeah

Eagles4Lyfe
11-28-2011, 09:32 PM
I think you should focus on arguing points like these rather than the MJ vs. Kobe. You aren't winning that, except with Laker fans. However, you do have a very potent scoring team with Amare', Worthy and Kobe but the Knicks also have great perimeter defense as well as post D with Gilmore.

I'd like to see you guys counter some of the points that KoB made in his write-up.
No ones saying MJ and Kobe is comparable im a Kobe nut hugger and even I myself know it's not a close comparison. But when it comes to match ups these 2 are un guardable to dismiss how one player will stop the other is outrageous. We can slow down MJ and contain him but people don't realize that his supporting cast can't out shine our supporting cast.

The same thing you said apples to us he has bare slashers he has one shooter in his starting lineup which is also the weakness in his starting lineup matchup wise because he'd get his food eaten.

It's just pissing me of how people are showing stats like Kobe can't close out games or anything but don't show the other side of the story at all either. When the games on the line and were talking an all time redraft everyone would want MJ first and Kobe second with their balls in their hands. MJ being better than Kobe has no affect on why his teams better. Our supporting cast and role players help us out more than his do. Your looking too much into this and weighing your vote on that is BS..

Steve Kerr?? Who exactly is this guy going to guard??? Where is MJ's Pippen next to him helping guard the superior wing players to help give MJ a break on the offensive end??? Add in we have more athleticism and more size of the bench liek gimme a break..
We'll have answers later tonight when Saddler gets back on because he has all that info that we worked up:D..

wow raps surging back.

Why is this shocking??

Eagles4Lyfe
11-28-2011, 09:46 PM
What funny is out of the 16 votes only 2 or 3 are lakers fans or something like that. I don't get how homerism is playing a part at all in any of the votes.
Continue insulting your future voters pats its going to work out well when your matchups posted.

PatsSoxKnicks
11-28-2011, 09:48 PM
No ones saying MJ and Kobe is comparable im a Kobe nut hugger and even I myself know it's not a close comparison. But when it comes to match ups these 2 are un guardable to dismiss how one player will stop the other is outrageous. We can slow down MJ and contain him but people don't realize that his supporting cast can't out shine our supporting cast.

The same thing you said apples to us he has bare slashers he has one shooter in his starting lineup which is also the weakness in his starting lineup matchup wise because he'd get his food eaten.

MJ being better than Kobe has no affect on why his teams better. Our supporting cast and role players help us out more than his do. Your looking too much into this and weighing your vote on that is BS..

Steve Kerr?? Who exactly is this guy going to guard??? Where is MJ's Pippen next to him helping guard the superior wing players to help give MJ a break on the offensive end??? Add in we have more athleticism and more size of the bench liek gimme a break..
We'll have answers later tonight when Saddler gets back on because he has all that info that we worked up:D..



I really do like your supporting cast, especially having Worthy there, which as I told you was a much better fit than Pierce. But I like the Knicks supporting cast too. Gasol and Gilmore are adequate 2s and 3s to MJ.

However, KoB brought up some great points in his write-up, which I really want to see you guys counter. Why/how would Amare' get along with Kobe? Why would Kobe turn into an unselfish player against MJ when everything about him says otherwise? If Gilmore guards Amare and Gasol guards Thurmond, how do you guys plan on outscoring their front court (that was my own question)? Gilmore is very good defensively and would limit what Amare does. Meanwhile, Gasol's D wouldn't hurt him much being on Thurmond. On the other end, both of the Knicks bigs can score, so whoever Amare is guarding is going to go off.

I will admit, going in, I thought you guys had a great chance because of that mismatch in Worthy-Detlef but KoB's write-up convinced me that you guys have some other issues.



It's just pissing me of how people are showing stats like Kobe can't close out games or anything but don't show the other side of the story at all either. When the games on the line and were talking an all time redraft everyone would want MJ first and Kobe second with their balls in their hands.

What other side of the story? Counter the stats. And I strongly disagree with your last statement, I would definitely not take him 2nd. This is one of the reasons why I think Kobe is one of the more overrated players. Did you see KoB's #'s about Kobe in elimination games? Counter that. I'll patiently wait.

PatsSoxKnicks
11-28-2011, 09:56 PM
What funny is out of the 16 votes only 2 or 3 are lakers fans or something like that. I don't get how homerism is playing a part at all in any of the votes.
Continue insulting your future voters pats its going to work out well when your matchups posted.

I didn't say it was and if I did, I edited it out :D And as I told you earlier, I voted for you guys as the 3rd seed so obviously I really like your team. BTW, chac is the one who originally implied that and I believe he's a Laker fan.

Also, are you suggesting that you're going to vote against us just because I'm "insulting" (even though I'm really not) Kobe or voting for the Knicks? That's lame dude. Vote for the better team or the person who convinces you better in the write-up. Don't vote against my team because I didn't pick your team or am saying Kobe isn't as good as everyone makes him out to be.

Eagles4Lyfe
11-28-2011, 10:05 PM
I didn't say it was and if I did, I edited it out :D And as I told you earlier, I voted for you guys as the 3rd seed so obviously I really like your team. BTW, chac is the one who originally implied that and I believe he's a Laker fan.

Also, are you suggesting that you're going to vote against us just because I'm "insulting" (even though I'm really not) Kobe or voting for the Knicks? That's lame dude. Vote for the better team or the person who convinces you better in the write-up. Don't vote against my team because I didn't pick your team or am saying Kobe isn't as good as everyone makes him out to be.

Huh I don't do that kinda **** im not an immature little girl. I just said the last time a guy started calling out the voters he almost lost. Just saying its not smart continually saying Lakers fans are the only ones making this match up close.

I told you wait till saddler gets on and he'll address everything accordingly to your wishes.

KnicksorBust
11-28-2011, 10:21 PM
How do the Knicks have Derek Harper? My team drafted him and traded him to the Nets. There is something wrong here.

I traded Ralph Sampson to get AK47 and Harper to bolster my wing defense.

Eagles4Lyfe
11-28-2011, 10:24 PM
great Knicks running away with it again what a tease :(

KnicksorBust
11-28-2011, 10:41 PM
Wow what a tease 4 back now after getting romped at the start :pray: cmonnnnnnn babyy..

Also its not farfetched to think the Raptors winning isn't possible. People are just seeing MJ and thinking he's going to dominate and all.
But have people ever seen Kobe's stats against other elite SG's?? the 03 Tmac, the 06 Wade etc???? He goes toe to toe with them, no one stops him and he still gets his own. I don't get why people are trying to argue Kobe can be stopped and managed but MJ can't. Ya MJ best player to ever live but if you slow MJ get him in foul trouble double him what the hell is he going to do?? Detlef is his only true shooter in the starting unit and if Detlefs getting abused by Worthy and he decides to bring AK in then that freaken plays into our hands more.

Zone that and who's going to be his shooter??? Alvin is a slasher, AK can't shoot if his life depended on it who's going to stretch his floor then??
People need to stop seeing MJ and get over it. Blowing Kobe out of proportion is also hilarious he's never been a non factor EVERR..

If MJ scores 40 Kobe will score 30-35 too, Ya MJ may do it more efficiently but its not that major a difference.

I really don't think that's it at all. I put a hell of a lot of effort in my writeup and basically created my own Kobe elimination game stat out of pure memory of him having poor games and researching it. He's so obsessed with being the hero that he'd cost you at least 2-3 games in this series and that's not even factoring games where my guys break out. I also think he and Amar'e are a poor fit together. Amar'e is a terrible passer and plays iso. Explain how that offense runs?

Also, this idea of you packing the paint is unrealistic. MJ's won a title with Ron Harper, Pippen, Rodman, Longley as his main sidekicks spacing the floor. You say I don't have enough shooting when I have Detlef Schrempf in his prime (when he shot 50% from 3pt for an entire season) and Steve Kerr (the greatest 3pt shooter in NBA History) off the bench. Hell, I even have Jim Jackson who shot 40% from 3pt. Pau Gasol has a great mid-range game. How much floor spacing do I really need?

Then you close by saying MJ will score an effecient 40 but Kobe will score an ineffecient 30-35 and that's not a big difference? If that's not enough to convince you then I don't know what will.

PatsSoxKnicks
11-28-2011, 10:59 PM
Huh I don't do that kinda **** im not an immature little girl. I just said the last time a guy started calling out the voters he almost lost. Just saying its not smart continually saying Lakers fans are the only ones making this match up close.

I told you wait till saddler gets on and he'll address everything accordingly to your wishes.

Ok cool. And you're right, although I don't think I've called out any Laker fans. In any case, I edited out anything that could be considered questionable lol.

And I shall wait.

Chacarron
11-28-2011, 10:59 PM
I traded Ralph Sampson to get AK47 and Harper to bolster my wing defense.

I didn't see a trade posted so I just wanted to know. I'll take your word.

KnicksorBust
11-28-2011, 11:01 PM
I didn't see a trade posted so I just wanted to know. I'll take your word.

You caught me. I knew I'd need him as my third string PG to swing the huge Derek Harper fanboys on PSD.

Sadds The Gr8
11-28-2011, 11:06 PM
PF – Pau Gasol vs. Amar’e Stoudemire
Gasol is a more complete player than Amar’e. Point blank. He has more of a post game, is a better rebounder, and can play defense. This is why I picked him before Amar’e and was trying to trade up to get him. He’s the perfect sidekick to an elite wing player like a Jordan/Kobe/etc. Meanwhile, let’s take a look at Amare’s personal profile:
Likes? Pick and rolls, and isolation face ups.
Dislikes? Rebounding, boxing out, playing any defense at all.
This is why having Steve Nash and being on the Suns was perfect for him. He could run pick and rolls, place his face up game, and get his 25 points. You put him on this team with a stud wing and suddenly his game suffers. I saw it firsthand. He doesn’t fit the triangle because he’s not a post player and I think he’d have an issue getting his touches with Kobe.

how does Gasol have the edge in this matchup? Gasol is well-rounded, but Amar'e has had great games against Gasol, moreso than Gasol has had against him, especially in the playoffs.

KnicksR4Real
11-28-2011, 11:06 PM
nyk

Sadds The Gr8
11-28-2011, 11:11 PM
You need a bench that can give you scoring and defense. I get defense at the PG spot from Harper, the wing from AK47, and in the post from Okafor. I get shooting/scoring from Kerr-Jackson-Cunningham-Big Z. It creates a good balance and allows me to defend and score on a variety of matchups. Plus Cunningham was a 6th man of the year for the championship Sixers team and fits his backup role perfectly. For the Raptors, I think he made a mistake picking Chandler and Dawkins. One, because they are both centers and it would force one of them out of position. Two, because he really has no true post-up bigman to throw the ball too. Iggy and Strickland were good picks though so even though I believe my bench is better I think it’s close enough to call it a wash.

Neither do you guys...Z isn't a post-up threat he's a set mid-range shooter, and Okafor isn't a scoring threat at all.

Eagles4Lyfe
11-28-2011, 11:14 PM
Finally a saddler sighting time to go HAM folks

PatsSoxKnicks
11-28-2011, 11:19 PM
how does Gasol have the edge in this matchup? Gasol is well-rounded, but Amar'e has had great games against Gasol, moreso than Gasol has had against him, especially in the playoffs.

http://www.basketball-reference.com/play-index/h2h_finder.cgi?request=1&p1=stoudam01&p2=gasolpa01

That's the Amare-Pau matchup and yeah, Amare has been the better player in the playoffs. Heck, even Amare's rebounding #'s are on par with Pau's in the playoffs. However, that is Amare with Steve Nash, not Kobe. And as KoB brought up in his write-up, how would Amare and Kobe coexist? It's a legitimate question. Still, I think that matchup could be called a wash in this specific matchup.

Sadds The Gr8
11-28-2011, 11:21 PM
C – Artis Gilmore vs. Nate Thurmond
This matchup boils down to 1 issue. Thurmond is great defensively. Gilmore is great offensively and defensively. In fact, Gilmore had more offensive win shares in two seasons at age 31 and 32 (8.3 + 8.4 = 16.7) than Thurmond had in his entire career 1963-1977 (-0.9, 1.0, 0.3, 1.7, 0.5, 0.5, 0.7, 3.8, 2.6, 3.2, 2.6, -0.8, 0.2, 0.5 = 15.8). Gilmore is the most efficient scorer in NBA History with a Career TS% of 62%. Thurmond has a career TS% of 47%. That is a drastic difference but we should adjust for different eras. During Thurmond’s era the average TS% was around 50% meaning he was 3% worse than the average player. During Gilmore’s era the average TS% was around 52% meaning he was 10% better than the average player. I concede that Thurmond was a great defensive player but Gilmore has a size advantage and never forced shots which makes him an ideal 3rd / 4th option. His 7’2 lefty jump hook would still do a lot more damage than the inefficient Thurmond.

So did Kareem and Wilt, and Thurmond didn't struggle guarding them...

KnicksorBust
11-28-2011, 11:24 PM
how does Gasol have the edge in this matchup? Gasol is well-rounded, but Amar'e has had great games against Gasol, moreso than Gasol has had against him, especially in the playoffs.

Several reasons:
1. Our offense is tailor-made for Gasol in the triangle. It plays to his strengths his mid-range game, passing out of the high post, and post-up game.
2. You still haven't explained how your offense will work with Amar'e and Kobe. Amar'e is NOT the same player without Nash. I know. I saw him. He went from 56% FG in 2010 to 50% FG in 2011. His TS% dropped 50 points and his offensive rating dropped 8 points. He (and Worthy for that matter) will not be the same player in this series that he's been in other series.
3. Amar'e is terrible defensively and Gasol has averaged 17ppg / 8 rpg / 4 apg / 2 bpg on 53% FG and improved to 20 ppg / 7rpg / 4 apg / 2bpg on 53% FG in the postseason. Amar'e scored 4 more ppg but it's on a lower fg, he only gets 1apg, and he gets more turnovers (3.0 TO per game).
4. I can throw Artis Gilmore on Amar'e and not worry about the ineffecient Thurmond hurting me. If you switch Amar'e on to Gilmore, he would get abused on the block by the 7'2 lefty hook. Gilmore is just as dangerous as a 20ppg scorer who shot 60% FG in his career.

Sadds The Gr8
11-28-2011, 11:25 PM
http://www.basketball-reference.com/play-index/h2h_finder.cgi?request=1&p1=stoudam01&p2=gasolpa01

That's the Amare-Pau matchup and yeah, Amare has been the better player in the playoffs. Heck, even Amare's rebounding #'s are on par with Pau's in the playoffs. However, that is Amare with Steve Nash, not Kobe. And as KoB brought up in his write-up, how would Amare and Kobe coexist? It's a legitimate question. Still, I think that matchup could be called a wash in this specific matchup.

Amare didn't have trouble scoring this season without Nash, and he scored just fine against Pau last season in their matchups. I basically called the matchup a wash in my writeup too.

and why wouldn't they be able to co-exist? Kobe's done fine sharing the reigns with another dominant big man. He did it with Shaq and Gasol.

Eagles4Lyfe
11-28-2011, 11:26 PM
http://www.basketball-reference.com/play-index/h2h_finder.cgi?request=1&p1=stoudam01&p2=gasolpa01

That's the Amare-Pau matchup and yeah, Amare has been the better player in the playoffs. Heck, even Amare's rebounding #'s are on par with Pau's in the playoffs. However, that is Amare with Steve Nash, not Kobe. And as KoB brought up in his write-up, how would Amare and Kobe coexist? It's a legitimate question. Still, I think that matchup could be called a wash in this specific matchup.

What's wrong with Kobe and Amare??? What's wrong with a Kobe and Amare PNR?? Kobe and Gasol got along, Kobe and Odom worked before they had gasol, I don't really get what the problem is??

We can use a similar offense to what the lakers had with the triangle if we wanted to, because Amare can shoot, so can Kobe and so can Porter. It's not like both are selfish guys.
You also brought up quotes from a Phil Jackson book, what the difference between that quote and the one where Shaq says Kobe's the greatest laker of all time??? There opinions but when you have ice water in your veins and are a clutch player obviously your going to want the ball in your hands but there have been numerous times where Kobe's defered down the stretch to.
How many times in the last minute do you see Kobe get doubled and him feed the ball to his other options???

This is what I meant about you not showing both sides of the story. You simply point of Kobe missing shots but where are the stats showing how many game winners he's actually made in his career and how many of those were key moments of key games. It's happens to every star you miss some and you make some but Kobe more often than not usually makes them and that's from a visual standpoint.

Sadds The Gr8
11-28-2011, 11:27 PM
Several reasons:
1. Our offense is tailor-made for Gasol in the triangle. It plays to his strengths his mid-range game, passing out of the high post, and post-up game.
2. You still haven't explained how your offense will work with Amar'e and Kobe. Amar'e is NOT the same player without Nash. I know. I saw him. He went from 56% FG in 2010 to 50% FG in 2011. His TS% dropped 50 points and his offensive rating dropped 8 points. He (and Worthy for that matter) will not be the same player in this series that he's been in other series.
3. Amar'e is terrible defensively and Gasol has averaged 17ppg / 8 rpg / 4 apg / 2 bpg on 53% FG and improved to 20 ppg / 7rpg / 4 apg / 2bpg on 53% FG in the postseason. Amar'e scored 4 more ppg but it's on a lower fg, he only gets 1apg, and he gets more turnovers (3.0 TO per game).
4. I can throw Artis Gilmore on Amar'e and not worry about the ineffecient Thurmond hurting me. If you switch Amar'e on to Gilmore, he would get abused on the block by the 7'2 lefty hook. Gilmore is just as dangerous as a 20ppg scorer who shot 60% FG in his career.

Gilmore would get roasted...Amar'e is one of the most athletic and explosive bigs the league has ever seen. He wouldn't be able to keep Amar'e in front of him and would most likely get in foul trouble.

Amar'e isn't the best defender, but Gasol has never torched him at any point or in any game

KnicksorBust
11-28-2011, 11:28 PM
Neither do you guys...Z isn't a post-up threat he's a set mid-range shooter, and Okafor isn't a scoring threat at all.

I have two post-up players in my starting lineup. You have 0. :confused:

KnicksorBust
11-28-2011, 11:30 PM
What's wrong with Kobe and Amare??? What's wrong with a Kobe and Amare PNR?? Kobe and Gasol got along, Kobe and Odom worked before they had gasol, I don't really get what the problem is??

We can use a similar offense to what the lakers had with the triangle if we wanted to, because Amare can shoot, so can Kobe and so can Porter. It's not like both are selfish guys.
You also brought up quotes from a Phil Jackson book, what the difference between that quote and the one where Shaq says Kobe's the greatest laker of all time??? There opinions but when you have ice water in your veins and are a clutch player obviously your going to want the ball in your hands but there have been numerous times where Kobe's defered down the stretch to.
How many times in the last minute do you see Kobe get doubled and him feed the ball to his other options???

This is what I meant about you not showing both sides of the story. You simply point of Kobe missing shots but where are the stats showing how many game winners he's actually made in his career and how many of those were key moments of key games. It's happens to every star you miss some and you make some but Kobe more often than not usually makes them and that's from a visual standpoint.

Not to be rude but Amar'e would be terrible in the triangle and it makes me wonder how much you know about Amar'e and/or the triangle. He doesn't post up and is a terrible passer. He doesn't fit that system at all.

Sadds The Gr8
11-28-2011, 11:31 PM
I have two post-up players in my starting lineup. You have 0. :confused:

u said our bench had no post-up threats...well that part was written in the bench section of your write-up so i assume that's what u meant.

and so what if Amar'e isn't a post-up threat, he's still a scoring threat inside and wouldn't have problems scoring on Gasol. that argument is ticky-tacky.

PatsSoxKnicks
11-28-2011, 11:34 PM
Amare didn't have trouble scoring this season without Nash, and he scored just fine against Pau last season in their matchups. I basically called the matchup a wash in my writeup too.

and why wouldn't they be able to co-exist? Kobe's done fine sharing the reigns with another dominant big man. He did it with Shaq and Gasol.

I was talking about the Amare-Pau matchups in the playoffs. He was with Nash in both of those. Obviously, I know he's done fine without Nash (I'm a Knicks fan lol) but I'm saying that in his matchups with Pau, he had Nash as opposed to Kobe. Also, consider this year he was the #1 option for the majority of the year and with Nash, he was more or less a co #1 (he actually had a higher USG% than Nash in every season but his rookie year) BUT he's never been a true #2 the way you'd ask him to be.

As for Kobe, with Shaq, he butted heads after he started developing. And Pau is a much more passive player than Amare. Pau typically has issues with not demanding the ball enough, not demanding the ball to much. Amare is not like that.

Rivera
11-28-2011, 11:35 PM
LOL at KOB putting gilmore on Amare thats more of a reason to vote for the raps...want to take gilmore out of the paint? you know amare can hit the 15-20 footer all day wide open...and gilmore doesnt have the laterial quickness to guard amare while amare drives by him then dunks on PAU

Pau will turn soft and hide like he does in the playoffs

Catfish1314
11-28-2011, 11:36 PM
You caught me. I knew I'd need him as my third string PG to swing the huge Derek Harper fanboys on PSD.

Evil.


What's wrong with that notion??? Amare has roughed up gasol in the playoffs it's a fact, why is that hard to believe??? Amare can body if need be its not like he's some weak guy who gets manhandled. It's been proven and we see it all the time how Gasol flops defensively that style wouldn't work here.

Amar'e doesn't "rough up" anybody. He's not physical at either end of the floor. His iso game is pure finesse and his game away from the ball is overwhelming athleticism. Defensively, he's non-existant. I'm not suggesting that Amar'e couldn't match Pau's production but he's not roughing anybody up.


If this gets into a shootout we can outscore the Knicks easily.

The Knicks ridiculous defense at the guard position would prevent it from turning into a shootout IMO.

Sadds The Gr8
11-28-2011, 11:38 PM
I was talking about the Amare-Pau matchups in the playoffs. He was with Nash in both of those. Obviously, I know he's done fine without Nash (I'm a Knicks fan lol) but I'm saying that in his matchups with Pau, he had Nash as opposed to Kobe. Also, consider this year he was the #1 option for the majority of the year and with Nash, he was more or less a co #1 (he actually had a higher USG% than Nash in every season but his rookie year) BUT he's never been a true #2 the way you'd ask him to be.

As for Kobe, with Shaq, he butted heads after he started developing. And Pau is a much more passive player than Amare. Pau typically has issues with not demanding the ball enough, not demanding the ball to much. Amare is not like that.
he did, but it's not like Kobe was a clear cut #2 or a scrub player. it was pretty much 1a, 1b. and they still won 3 titles.

KnicksorBust
11-28-2011, 11:43 PM
Gilmore would get roasted...Amar'e is one of the most athletic and explosive bigs the league has ever seen. He wouldn't be able to keep Amar'e in front of him and would most likely get in foul trouble.

Amar'e isn't the best defender, but Gasol has never torched him at any point or in any game

Are you just trying to get away with things hoping that I haven't looked up the numbers?

http://www.basketball-reference.com/boxscores/200212080MEM.html

Gasol 21 points on 12 shots, 17 rebounds, 4 assists, 3 blocks.
Amar'e 2 points (1 for 5 from the field) and 2 rebounds in 26 minutes.

http://www.basketball-reference.com/boxscores/200311070PHO.html

Gasol 23 points on 13 shots.

http://www.basketball-reference.com/boxscores/200701150MEM.html
Gasol 10-11 from the field, 23 points, 9 rebounds, 7 assists.

http://www.basketball-reference.com/boxscores/200802200PHO.html
Gasol goes 13-19 from the field for 29 points.

http://www.basketball-reference.com/boxscores/200802200PHO.html
Gasol goes 11-14 from the field for 28 points.

http://www.basketball-reference.com/boxscores/200504270PHO.html
Gasol goes 13-26 from the field for 28 points.

http://www.basketball-reference.com/boxscores/200505010MEM.html
Gasol goes 12-23 from the field for 28 points.

http://www.basketball-reference.com/boxscores/201005170LAL.html
Gasol goes 10-13 from the field for 21 points.

http://www.basketball-reference.com/boxscores/201005190LAL.html
Gasol goes 11-19 from the field for 29 points.

http://www.basketball-reference.com/boxscores/201005230PHO.html
Gasol goes 11-14 from the field for 23 points.

I think we get the idea. I've seen Tyler Hansborough torch Amar'e for back to back 30 point games. Gasol in the Triangle with Jordan-Schrempf would feast on Amar'e. He's already proven he can have hyper effecient games as a #1 option in Memphis vs. Amar'e and as a #2.

KnicksorBust
11-28-2011, 11:46 PM
u said our bench had no post-up threats...well that part was written in the bench section of your write-up so i assume that's what u meant.

and so what if Amar'e isn't a post-up threat, he's still a scoring threat inside and wouldn't have problems scoring on Gasol. that argument is ticky-tacky.

Right because you have Kobe Bryant who thrives with a low post option in the triangle. But... you don't have that on this team. Your team keeps ducking the question of what offense you will run with two players whose success has come in two completely different systems.

Sadds The Gr8
11-28-2011, 11:46 PM
Are you just trying to get away with things hoping that I haven't looked up the numbers?

http://www.basketball-reference.com/boxscores/200212080MEM.html

Gasol 21 points on 12 shots, 17 rebounds, 4 assists, 3 blocks.
Amar'e 2 points (1 for 5 from the field) and 2 rebounds in 26 minutes.

http://www.basketball-reference.com/boxscores/200311070PHO.html

Gasol 23 points on 13 shots.

http://www.basketball-reference.com/boxscores/200701150MEM.html
Gasol 10-11 from the field, 23 points, 9 rebounds, 7 assists.

http://www.basketball-reference.com/boxscores/200802200PHO.html
Gasol goes 13-19 from the field for 29 points.

http://www.basketball-reference.com/boxscores/200802200PHO.html
Gasol goes 11-14 from the field for 28 points.

http://www.basketball-reference.com/boxscores/200504270PHO.html
Gasol goes 13-26 from the field for 28 points.

http://www.basketball-reference.com/boxscores/200505010MEM.html
Gasol goes 12-23 from the field for 28 points.

http://www.basketball-reference.com/boxscores/201005170LAL.html
Gasol goes 10-13 from the field for 21 points.

http://www.basketball-reference.com/boxscores/201005190LAL.html
Gasol goes 11-19 from the field for 29 points.

http://www.basketball-reference.com/boxscores/201005230PHO.html
Gasol goes 11-14 from the field for 23 points.

I think we get the idea. I've seen Tyler Hansborough torch Amar'e for back to back 30 point games. Gasol in the Triangle with Jordan-Schrempf would feast on Amar'e. He's already proven he can have hyper effecient games as a #1 option in Memphis vs. Amar'e and as a #2.

same can be said the other way...Amar'e outscored him in half of those games...

the only game u can say he dominated him was that first one, and Amare was a rookie

PatsSoxKnicks
11-28-2011, 11:58 PM
You also brought up quotes from a Phil Jackson book, what the difference between that quote and the one where Shaq says Kobe's the greatest laker of all time??? There opinions but when you have ice water in your veins and are a clutch player obviously your going to want the ball in your hands but there have been numerous times where Kobe's defered down the stretch to.
How many times in the last minute do you see Kobe get doubled and him feed the ball to his other options???

This is what I meant about you not showing both sides of the story. You simply point of Kobe missing shots but where are the stats showing how many game winners he's actually made in his career and how many of those were key moments of key games. It's happens to every star you miss some and you make some but Kobe more often than not usually makes them and that's from a visual standpoint.

I don't want to turn this into a Kobe is overrated in the clutch thread but I'll bite here.

Your first paragraph is an opinion to, which is not 100% supported by the #'s. You think I would say something about Kobe being overrated in the clutch if it wasn't supported by some #'s?


With the game on the line
Trailing by one or two points, or tied, in the final 24 seconds of regular-season and playoff games since 1996-97, with a minimum of 30 shots. From Alok Pattani of ESPN Stats & Information.


Player Makes Attempts FG%
Carmelo Anthony 21 44 47.7
Chris Paul 14 31 45.2
Shawn Marion 12 30 40
Brandon Roy 12 30 40
Hedo Turkoglu 12 30 40
Rashard Lewis 18 46 39.1
Glenn Robinson 14 36 38.9
Deron Williams 14 36 38.9
Mike Bibby 15 39 38.5
Dirk Nowitzki 25 65 38.5
Jalen Rose 12 32 37.5
Tim Duncan 23 62 37.1
Eddie Jones 13 36 36.1
Karl Malone 11 31 35.5
Ben Gordon 17 49 34.7
Chris Webber 18 52 34.6
Raymond Felton 12 36 33.3
LeBron James 23 69 33.3
Ray Allen 23 70 32.9
Gilbert Arenas 13 40 32.5
Vince Carter 31 96 32.3
Steve Francis 14 44 31.8
Damon Stoud 12 38 31.6
Nick Van Exel 16 51 31.4
Kobe Bryant 36 115 31.3
Jason Terry 14 45 31.1
Allen Iverson 21 68 30.9
Kevin Garnett 22 72 30.6
Ron Artest 9 30 30
Allan Houston 12 41 29.3
Entire league 2038 6861 29.7

Also, the idea that there have been numerous times where Kobe has deferred down the stretch is flat out false:


Bryant makes crunch-time defense easy for opponents by shooting just about every time he touches the ball (over a five-year period, he mustered 56 clutch shots, to go with one assist).

http://espn.go.com/blog/truehoop/post/_/id/24200/the-truth-about-kobe-bryant-in-crunch-time

Again, I suggest you read the article and refute the points in that article. However, if you can successfully do that, I can probably point to mounds of other evidence that Kobe is not this all-time clutch player that you make him out to be.

Here's the problem: As a fan of Kobe, I'm sure you remember all of his makes, and most people do. But who remembers his misses when the perception is that he's clutch? No one. Why would you remember Kobe's misses? But he has many more misses than makes (this is really true about every player in the NBA) but more so with Kobe.

Also, as KoB pointed out, Kobe's shooting % #'s aren't that great in elimination games. Why? Because I think we all know he forces shots that aren't there. This has always been a problem with Kobe.

However, make no mistake, I'm not saying Kobe isn't good because obviously, he's a great player who's top 10-15 all-time at the very least. However, I am saying he's a bit overrated in the clutch. And the fact that you would take him as the 2nd best clutch player in this whole thing is just further proof that he's overrated in the clutch.

Anyways, I don't want to sidetrack the actual matchup but if you want to continue this further, again, read the article, which has a lot of statistical evidence. Does Kobe have the right attitude? Of course, he's got a killer instinct, however that killer instinct also gets him in trouble since he ALWAYS has to be the guy who shoots at the end of games.

KnicksorBust
11-29-2011, 12:11 AM
LOL at KOB putting gilmore on Amare thats more of a reason to vote for the raps...want to take gilmore out of the paint? you know amare can hit the 15-20 footer all day wide open...and gilmore doesnt have the laterial quickness to guard amare while amare drives by him then dunks on PAU

Pau will turn soft and hide like he does in the playoffs

The idea was more that Amar'e would have to be guarding a talented post player which would mean a huge series for either Gasol or Gilmore.

In regards to your second comment, you have a very short term memory. Gasol has been phenomenal 3 of the past 4 seasons. There was a thread on PSD recently arguing Gasol should have been Finals MVP when they beat the Celtics. He led the NBA in playoff win shares with a PER of 24 and a TS% of 60%. The year before he had an absurd 124-102 differential offensive rating vs. defensiving rating for a +22 with a TS% of 62%.

PatsSoxKnicks
11-29-2011, 12:12 AM
he did, but it's not like Kobe was a clear cut #2 or a scrub player. it was pretty much 1a, 1b. and they still won 3 titles.

Right but that was early Kobe, not prime Kobe.

KnicksorBust
11-29-2011, 12:14 AM
I don't want to turn this into a Kobe is overrated in the clutch thread but I'll bite here.

Your first paragraph is an opinion to, which is not 100% supported by the #'s. You think I would say something about Kobe being overrated in the clutch if it wasn't supported by some #'s?



Also, the idea that there have been numerous times where Kobe has deferred down the stretch is flat out false:



http://espn.go.com/blog/truehoop/post/_/id/24200/the-truth-about-kobe-bryant-in-crunch-time

Again, I suggest you read the article and refute the points in that article. However, if you can successfully do that, I can probably point to mounds of other evidence that Kobe is not this all-time clutch player that you make him out to be.

Here's the problem: As a fan of Kobe, I'm sure you remember all of his makes, and most people do. But who remembers his misses when the perception is that he's clutch? No one. Why would you remember Kobe's misses? But he has many more misses than makes (this is really true about every player in the NBA) but more so with Kobe.

Also, as KoB pointed out, Kobe's shooting % #'s aren't that great in elimination games. Why? Because I think we all know he forces shots that aren't there. This has always been a problem with Kobe.

However, make no mistake, I'm not saying Kobe isn't good because obviously, he's a great player who's top 10-15 all-time at the very least. However, I am saying he's a bit overrated in the clutch. And the fact that you would take him as the 2nd best clutch player in this whole thing is just further proof that he's overrated in the clutch.

Anyways, I don't want to sidetrack the actual matchup but if you want to continue this further, again, read the article, which has a lot of statistical evidence. Does Kobe have the right attitude? Of course, he's got a killer instinct, however that killer instinct also gets him in trouble since he ALWAYS has to be the guy who shoots at the end of games.

Meanwhile, Jordan shoots 58% from the field in clutch situations and even famously kicked to a wide open Steve Kerr and John Paxson for 3s to clinch a finals wins. He's the total package in the clutch.

KnicksorBust
11-29-2011, 12:16 AM
The more I talk about this series the more confident I am that I have the better leader, better big men, more balance, etc. but it seems to be having the opposite effect on the voting. :laugh:

Sadds The Gr8
11-29-2011, 12:16 AM
The idea was more that Amar'e would have to be guarding a talented post player which would mean a huge series for either Gasol or Gilmore.

In regards to your second comment, you have a very short term memory. Gasol has been phenomenal 3 of the past 4 seasons. There was a thread on PSD recently arguing Gasol should have been Finals MVP when they beat the Celtics. He led the NBA in playoff win shares with a PER of 24 and a TS% of 60%. The year before he had an absurd 124-102 differential offensive rating vs. defensiving rating for a +22 with a TS% of 62%.

Gasol has never had a "huge" playoff series against Amar'e. he's played well against him offensively but he's never owned him in the playoffs.
http://www.basketball-reference.com/play-index/h2h_finder.cgi?request=1&p1=stoudam01&p2=gasolpa01

Rivera
11-29-2011, 12:20 AM
yes the knicks have michael jordan and michael jordan is michael jordan...jordan is gonna do what jordan does...but the raps have kobe...who better to go at MJ in an all time redraft but kobe? kobe is a fierce competitor and damn good defender in his ownright and you know hes gonna make jordan work on the defense end....kobe is gonna get his buckets to

im telling all of you and to all of the voters who would you trust more as your sidekick(s) ?

pau gasol

or

James worthy and amare stoudemire

Sadds The Gr8
11-29-2011, 12:22 AM
that's another thing, we have the biggest mismatch in the series at SF, and I think Worthy would abuse Schrempf.

JordansBulls
11-29-2011, 12:22 AM
Considering MJ is 24-0 in series with HCA the only top 20 player all time undefeated in series with HCA and both teams are relatively even, the Knicks take this. Also you got the #1 playoff performer all time as a player and statistically (#1 in PER, WS/PER 48 minutes, and the only player to average 30+ ppg in History in the playoffs).

Eagles4Lyfe
11-29-2011, 12:29 AM
I don't want to turn this into a Kobe is overrated in the clutch thread but I'll bite here.

Your first paragraph is an opinion to, which is not 100% supported by the #'s. You think I would say something about Kobe being overrated in the clutch if it wasn't supported by some #'s?



Also, the idea that there have been numerous times where Kobe has deferred down the stretch is flat out false:



http://espn.go.com/blog/truehoop/post/_/id/24200/the-truth-about-kobe-bryant-in-crunch-time

Again, I suggest you read the article and refute the points in that article. However, if you can successfully do that, I can probably point to mounds of other evidence that Kobe is not this all-time clutch player that you make him out to be.

Here's the problem: As a fan of Kobe, I'm sure you remember all of his makes, and most people do. But who remembers his misses when the perception is that he's clutch? No one. Why would you remember Kobe's misses? But he has many more misses than makes (this is really true about every player in the NBA) but more so with Kobe.

Also, as KoB pointed out, Kobe's shooting % #'s aren't that great in elimination games. Why? Because I think we all know he forces shots that aren't there. This has always been a problem with Kobe.

However, make no mistake, I'm not saying Kobe isn't good because obviously, he's a great player who's top 10-15 all-time at the very least. However, I am saying he's a bit overrated in the clutch. And the fact that you would take him as the 2nd best clutch player in this whole thing is just further proof that he's overrated in the clutch.

Anyways, I don't want to sidetrack the actual matchup but if you want to continue this further, again, read the article, which has a lot of statistical evidence. Does Kobe have the right attitude? Of course, he's got a killer instinct, however that killer instinct also gets him in trouble since he ALWAYS has to be the guy who shoots at the end of games.

I'll bite on this because you took your time to post this and prove a point.
The stats that's taken into consideration is based on shots taken within 24 seconds or less on the shot clock.
This can factor in so many things dude, 1) Usually if its tied or the Lakers are down by 1 that means one final posession. 2) Usually 24 seconds and less teams are fouling other teams then coming back down the court and trying to hit shots to prolong the game, which can also make the number seem really misleading.

I mean I know Kobe isn't perfect heck I'm admitting it but what you fail to realize is his teammates and coaches rely on him for those. If the Lakers need a game tying 3 who are their options besides Fisher, Kobe and Artest, heck once upon a time he had guys like Luke Walton and Lamar Odom for a couple years as his supporting cast what was he supposed to do then???
If the coach draws up a play and the team mates happen to just look for him at every time they can and force the ball to him what can he do??

I've watched the Lakers for years and I watch the playoffs each year how many times do we see Kobe differing to guys like Fish but then see them get discouraged and just forcefully throw it to Kobe even though Kobe's hurt and make him force a shot up then in the end watch Kobe walking of the court shaking his head????

Also to say he doesn't look for his team mates is a joke in itself, guys like Fisher, Horry didn't get their reputations of being clutch players for no reason, how did those guys ever get chances of knocking down clutch shots if Kobe didn't play of the ball for them??? This argument can go on for days and times like this you have to look beyond the stats and use your best judgement and take into affect your eye tests and what you've seen.
I remember the Shaq was in LA the amount of times Kobe fed the ball into him to post up. How many times do we see Kobe feed the ball to gasol within the last minute to let him do his work???

It's just moronic to suggest if the games on the line you wouldn't trust him because a flawed advanced statistic suggests so.
Go find us stats and situations further dissecting those stats your showing and how many of those times were situations when he was forced to toss up a shot, how many times he legit had the ball ran the clock to hit a jumper.

I mean cmon your stats are showing guys like Glenn Robinson and Lebron James and Rashard Lewis are more clutch than Kobe like cmon man?? Need i say more

Eagles4Lyfe
11-29-2011, 12:40 AM
Considering MJ is 24-0 in series with HCA the only top 20 player all time undefeated in series with HCA and both teams are relatively even, the Knicks take this. Also you got the #1 playoff performer all time as a player and statistically (#1 in PER, WS/PER 48 minutes, and the only player to average 30+ ppg in History in the playoffs).

This is exactly what I mean people get mad at us getting votes cause of Kobe and this is my exact beef people are voting when they simply see MJ and his individual statistics.
If MJ gets stopped then what happens their team automatically becomes ****??

Lucky.
11-29-2011, 12:49 AM
Raps with the upset..

PatsSoxKnicks
11-29-2011, 12:58 AM
I'll bite on this because you took your time to post this and prove a point.
The stats that's taken into consideration is based on shots taken within 24 seconds or less on the shot clock.
This can factor in so many things dude, 1) Usually if its tied or the Lakers are down by 1 that means one final posession. 2) Usually 24 seconds and less teams are fouling other teams then coming back down the field and trying to hit shots to prolong the game, which can also make the number seem really misleading.

I mean I know Kobe isn't perfect heck I'm admitting it but what you fail to realize is his teammates and coaches rely on him for those. If the Lakers need a game tying 3 who are their options besides Fisher, Kobe and Artest, heck once upon a time he had guys like Luke Walton and Lamar Odom for a couple years as his supporting cast what was he supposed to do then???
If the coach draws up a play and the team mates happen to just look for him at every time they can and force the ball to him what can he do??

I've watched the Lakers for years and I watch the playoffs each year how many times do we see Kobe differing to guys like Fish but then see them get discouraged and just forcefully throw it to Kobe even though Kobe's hurt and make him force a shot up then in the end watch Kobe walking of the court shaking his head????

Also to say he doesn't look for his team mates is a joke in itself, guys like Fisher, Horry didn't get their reputations of being clutch players for no reason, how did those guys ever get chances of knocking down clutch shots if Kobe didn't play of the ball for them??? This argument can go on for days and times like this you have to look beyond the stats and use your best judgement and take into affect your eye tests and what you've seen.
I remember the Shaq was in LA the amount of times Kobe fed the ball into him to post up. How many times do we see Kobe feed the ball to gasol within the last minute to let him do his work???

Yes, this is only game winning shots, so yes, I understand this isn't necessarily representative of overall clutch #'s (which contains much more than just game winning shots). However, if you want to pore through the stats for clutch time (defined as, 4th quarter or overtime, less than 5 minutes left, neither team ahead by more than 5 points)

http://www.82games.com/1011/CSORT11.HTM
http://www.82games.com/0910/CSORT11.HTM
http://www.82games.com/0809/CSORT11.HTM
http://www.82games.com/CSORT11.HTM

There may be some more years too, just browse around. I'm sure you'll point out that Kobe led the league in points per 48 in the clutch but you should consider some other stats like efficiency (FG%).

There's a lot of rambling here and not a lot of facts. Did you even bother to read the article? Also, you see a guy who has bad teammates and a guy who has his teammates force him the ball. I see a guy who wants the ball and doesn't want anyone else shooting the ball in those situations (hero ball) because that guy wants the glory of making the shot. That is both good and bad. It's obviously good that you have someone willing to take such a pressure filled shot, however its bad that the guy is so obsessed with getting the glory, that he won't pass it to another open guy.

None of this changes the fact that, in a 5 year period, Kobe had 1 assist on game winning shots. You can call it a joke all you want, but thats just the simple fact. Now are game winning shots a good indication of clutch time? No. However, I think someone brought up the fact that Kobe would hit a game winner in game 7, to which I say, not very likely.

BTW, I've watched plenty of Kobe over the years and I've always felt that he's overrated in the clutch, even before I saw this article or any numbers. It may be that's because I also tend to remember the times he misses game winning shots and no one else does. However, I like KoB had the feeling that Kobe wasn't very efficient in elimination games and you know what? He isn't.



It's just moronic to suggest if the games on the line you wouldn't trust him because a flawed advanced statistic suggests so.
Go find us stats and situations further dissecting those stats your showing and how many of those times were situations when he was forced to toss up a shot, how many times he legit had the ball ran the clock to hit a jumper.

I mean cmon your stats are showing guys like Glenn Robinson and Lebron James and Rashard Lewis are more clutch than Kobe like cmon man?? Need i say more

I didn't say I wouldn't trust him. To be honest, if I see a game winning shot going up, I'm assuming it's NOT going in. Why? Because players miss game winners more then they make them. It doesn't matter who the player is, it's more likely to be a miss then a make.

And saying simple makes and misses are advanced? :laugh:

Look again dude, it's simple makes and misses and FG%. You honestly think thats advanced stats? :laugh:

I'll give you this though, Kobe has by far, more attempts than anyone on that list, which means his FG% is naturally going to be lower.

Anyways, we're derailing this thread, so we should probably get back to the actual matchup. Considering you're one of the GMs, I would think you'd want that.

PatsSoxKnicks
11-29-2011, 01:04 AM
This is exactly what I mean people get mad at us getting votes cause of Kobe and this is my exact beef people are voting when they simply see MJ and his individual statistics.
If MJ gets stopped then what happens their team automatically becomes ****??

If it makes you feel better, I actually was seriously thinking about voting for you guys before the matchup went up. However, I liked KoB's write-up and he swayed my vote in his direction. Perhaps I should've waited for some of your arguments in the thread but I was leaning towards the Knicks before the matchup anyways. So far, there's been nothing thats going to convince me otherwise and in fact, I've been more convinced the Knicks win as time has gone by. I did not vote because of MJ though, I voted because I liked their front court better and because I liked their fit a bit better.

The_Jamal
11-29-2011, 01:07 AM
This is exactly what I mean people get mad at us getting votes cause of Kobe and this is my exact beef people are voting when they simply see MJ and his individual statistics.
If MJ gets stopped then what happens their team automatically becomes ****??

Well for 1, i'd love to hear how you're going to stop MJ. and 2, on what planet is Gasol, Robertson, Detlef and Gilmore a "**** supporting cast" when 3 out of the 4 players on his supporting cast are better than yours and fit like a glove with MJ's game. You on the other hand have all kinds of offensive ball issues with guys who need the rock to be effective.

tredigs
11-29-2011, 01:17 AM
Even outside of MJ/Kobe (i.e. if they were two other equal players), I think this is Knicks in 7; More dominant two-way bigs, as good a defensive pg as you can find in the leagues history (with an offensive game to boot), and small forwards who in their prime could absolutely neutralize the Worthy/Iggy combo -- they're not making much noise in this series.

Considering NY's team possesses one of the greatest leaders and best playoff performer in history (who will absolutely get the most out of his squad), I would not be the least bit surprised to see a 4 game sweep 2 out of 10 times the series is played, and give the Raps about a ~10-15% chance of taking it down.

Knicks in 5 would be my best guess.

PatsSoxKnicks
11-29-2011, 01:21 AM
Even outside of MJ/Kobe (i.e. if they were two other equal players), I think this is Knicks in 7; More dominant two-way bigs, as good a defensive pg as you can find in the leagues history (with an offensive game to boot), and small forwards who in their prime could absolutely neutralize the Worthy/Iggy combo -- they're not making much noise in this series.

Considering NY's team possesses one of the greatest leaders and best playoff performer in history (who will absolutely get the most out of his squad), I would not be the least bit surprised to see a 4 game sweep 2 out of 10 times the series is played, and give the Raps about a ~10-15% chance of taking it down.

Knicks in 5 would be my best guess.

Good to hear from you tredigs, hope you continue to post in the all-time matchup threads. I'm looking forward to hearing your thoughts on our matchup with the KC Kings.

Sadds The Gr8
11-29-2011, 12:01 PM
bump...hopefully we can make one last run

Eagles4Lyfe
11-29-2011, 01:44 PM
Crap this ones pertty much locked up:(
Cmon Kobe fans show your pride for him:p

Ebbs
11-29-2011, 01:50 PM
I literally feel the only reason this is close is because PSD's Lakers fans are all returning. (Yes I know someone said this already.)

Eagles4Lyfe
11-29-2011, 01:52 PM
Kobe 4 LYfe baby and it works both ways. Do you not see Knicks fans voting for the Knicks?? There is a lot of them too and plus KOB has a few lakers votes to maybe even more than we do.

Sadds The Gr8
11-29-2011, 01:55 PM
I literally feel the only reason this is close is because PSD's Lakers fans are all returning. (Yes I know someone said this already.)

lol what? I only counted 4 Laker fans in the poll that voted for us, and 4 Knicks fans in the poll that voted for him....

The_Jamal
11-29-2011, 01:56 PM
My match-up has no life.. :(

Eagles4Lyfe
11-29-2011, 01:57 PM
Atleast your winning cheer up

Sadds The Gr8
11-29-2011, 01:59 PM
our matchups always have the most votes, we bring controversy where ever we go. we have the highest ratings lol:cool:

Eagles4Lyfe
11-29-2011, 02:04 PM
Great more NY fans viewing the thread here comes the nail in the coffin :(

Sadds The Gr8
11-29-2011, 02:10 PM
yea this looks to be over. I honestly expected to lose this matchup by 15+ votes, especially after hearing that we were getting smoked like 9-0 when I was at work yesterday. I'm happy we made this so close and put up a fight. This sucks because I think we could've made it further with a different matchup/path, but we ran into a 15 year Vet/Hall of Fame GM with the best team in this game. And PSK going to town on us with his advanced stats didn't help us much either lol.

John Walls Era
11-29-2011, 02:16 PM
You run into Jordan and its game over.

PatsSoxKnicks
11-29-2011, 04:13 PM
And PSK going to town on us with his advanced stats didn't help us much either lol.

I don't think that made any difference. I think the vote was actually still close when I was talking about that.

Eagles4Lyfe
11-29-2011, 09:15 PM
:sigh: GG KOB best of luck in future bro

smith&wesson
11-29-2011, 09:39 PM
raps hands down.

The_Jamal
11-29-2011, 11:11 PM
raps hands down.

Gotta love posts like these lol. Why would the Raps win "hands down"?

KnicksorBust
11-30-2011, 07:09 PM
yea this looks to be over. I honestly expected to lose this matchup by 15+ votes, especially after hearing that we were getting smoked like 9-0 when I was at work yesterday. I'm happy we made this so close and put up a fight. This sucks because I think we could've made it further with a different matchup/path, but we ran into a 15 year Vet/Hall of Fame GM with the best team in this game. And PSK going to town on us with his advanced stats didn't help us much either lol.

:laugh:

Thanks. I agree with you that you had better than just a top 8 team. I give you guys a lot of credit for arguing your ***** off and making two comebacks in one vote.


:sigh: GG KOB best of luck in future bro

:clap:

Thanks. I hope you both vote in the rest of the matchups and don't just disappear like other GMs when they get eliminated.